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Scotland aims to lead world in global warming battle



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Published Date: 30 January 2008
THE Scotsman joins forces with Natural Scotland on a campaign to promote greener lifestyles. Click below if you want to join in.




AMBITI
OUS new targets to reduce greenhouse gas emissions were set out yesterday by Scottish ministers, who urged the world to follow their lead to tackle climate change.

John Swinney, the finance secretary, said Scotland would cut greenhouse gases by 80 per cent by 2050 – a third more than the UK target over the same period.

Mr Swinney said the Scottish Government would be tied to annual targets and to a tough new regime of scrutiny to make sure the overall reduction was achieved.


This will mean big changes in electricity generation, moving away from fossil fuels to renewables and heavy investment in clean coal technology and carbon capture.

More solar panels and wind turbines on Scottish homes, more recycling and tougher regulations on new buildings will also be introduced to meet the targets.

But both the Scottish Government and opposition politicians acknowledge that Scotland's achievements will count for very little without the same sort of commitment elsewhere in the world.

The Chinese government has set a target of a 10 per cent cut in emissions by 2010 while India has set an equally modest target of a 25 per cent cut by 2020.

The United States still has no national target for a cut in emissions, although all the main candidates to replace George Bush as president next year have promised to introduce nationwide targets for the first time.

Even the European Union, which has been leading the arguments for proper greenhouse gas reduction targets, only has a target of a 20 per cent reduction from 1990 levels by 2020.

Mr Swinney said: "It's essential that we tackle global warming as a planetary issue. We hope and believe that by announcing such ambitious targets for ourselves, that can, in itself, help to tackle it. But just as importantly, we hope it will encourage other nations around the world to follow suit. It is essential that happens because we have to tackle this on a global basis."

Maf Smith, director of the Sustainable Development Commission Scotland, added: "Governments across the world are shying away from taking the necessary action. The Scottish Government must be commended for its intention to lead the way for other countries."

But Patrick Harvie, a Green MSP, said more needed to be done. "Even if Scotland meets the minister's ambitious targets to reduce pollution, we still need to see a concerted international action to make a real difference."

The 80 per cent target was chosen because that is the level of reduction scientists believe is necessary to have a 50 per cent chance of avoiding a dangerous rise in global temperatures.

It was set and agreed by scientists and published in the Climatic Change Journal last year as the best estimate to measure climate change and the best way to combat it.

Mr Harvie said that climate change experts had warned that a 90 per cent reduction was actually now required to stave off a dangerous rise in global temperatures.

Mr Swinney announced the new target as part of a consultation on the Scottish Government's Climate Change Bill, which was launched yesterday.

Environmentalists, business leaders and members of the public are being invited to contribute to the consultation, which will then be used to fashion the legislation.

The consultation set out a number of areas where action is needed. But instead of demanding new standards for each area, ministers have kept the paper vague and non-specific, asking instead for submissions before making definitive judgments for each area.

Professor Thomas Crowley, a global expert in climate change, said he believed the 80 per cent target was "ambitious but achievable".

Prof Crowley, a professor of geo-sciences based in Edinburgh, said Scotland would have a better chance of hitting the tough new limits than almost anywhere else in the world, because of the potential for renewables and the collective political will to drive the issue forward.

He added it would be difficult but possible. "I don't think it's crazy. It might be very ambitious but it is conceivable that it will be achievable," he said.

THE KEY AREAS

Microgeneration

Many more people are expected to have their own forms of electricity generation in their homes by 2050.

The usual forms will be wind turbines or solar panels, although some people will tap into underground heat sources or use biomass – biological material like wood or animal waste – as fuel.

Microgeneration plants can be used to produce electricity for the home or business. Jason Ormiston, chief executive of Scottish Renewables, said: "Everyone has a responsibility at home to consider whether they can use microgeneration.

"It's not easy in all circumstances. We recognise that and we should make it easy. Indeed, it should be as easy to buy a solar panel as it is to buy a flat-screen TV.We are talking here, mainly, about converting existing buildings."

Combined heat and power

Combined heat and power is a relatively new way of saving energy and heat. Power stations divert heat, which would have gone up into the atmosphere, into electricity or use it to warm other buildings.

It can used on different scales, from a power station next to a major industrial site like a refinery, down to the level of a generating station for a small community. The use of combined heat and power stations is expected to increase dramatically over the next few decades.

Peter Smith, of the Combined Heat and Power Association, said: "Combined heat and power is incredibly efficient and cost-effective way of reducing these emissions.

If combined heat and power was to grow, it would be a huge benefit to the environment."

Cutting emissions and heat loss from buildings

New buildings are constructed to rigorous new energy standards, but most people live in older houses – many from the Victorian era or even earlier – almost all of which are poor at heat retention.

Mike Thornton, director, Scotland, for the Energy Saving Trust, said there were about 600,000 homes without cavity wall insulation in Scotland and tens of thousands which either had no roof insulation or were under-insulated. "There are large numbers of simple, cost-effective measures which can be done and installed by homeowners to reduce emissions and which will also save them money," he said.

By 2050, it will be unusual for homes not to have good insulation and for heating bills to be much lower than they are now.

Waste and recycling

More and more people are recycling their waste, rather than dumping it in landfill sites.

This has two direct benefits. It helps save raw materials – as recycled material is used over and over again – and it helps reduce landfill sites, which produce methane, a greenhouse gas. To hit the Scottish Government's emission targets, there will have to be more recycling and less waste. Lisa Macleod, from the Scottish Waste Awareness Group, said Scotland had improved, but there was a long way to go.

"We need to move away from landfill sites," she said.

"They emit the powerful greenhouse gas methane, which is over 20 times more potent than carbon dioxide, and if we are to play our part in the fight against climate change, we must significantly reduce our greenhouse gas emissions."

Carbon storage

This is a method of keeping carbon dioxide deep underground or under the sea.

Ministers believe it has the potential to deal with 90 per cent of the carbon dioxide from Scotland's fossil-fuel power stations, without that gas going into the atmosphere.

As these power stations produce most greenhouse gases in Scotland, that would go a long way to meeting the Scottish Government's target. Dan Barlow, the acting director of WWF Scotland, said: "This is a way of preventing carbon emissions from going into the atmosphere and we need to do that if we are going to reduce emissions sufficiently to prevent a temperature rise of two degrees. Work is required to make sure sites are identified where there is no risk of leakage, but there is a need for it globally, alongside a growth in renewables."

The public sector

This makes up a quarter of Scottish employment and accounts for the vast majority of the public buildings – including schools and hospitals.

It is the focus of government attention because ministers can regulate it and demand new standards in a way they cannot for the private sector.

Jason Ormiston, the chief executive of Scottish Renewables, said: "Some local authorities and some public buildings have done very well, the Scottish Natural Heritage building in Inverness is top drawer in energy efficiency and micro-generation systems."

Mr Ormiston said that he expected public-private contracts to be redrawn, forcing private companies to meet tough new environmental standards if they are building for the public sector.



The full article contains 1490 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Kipling,

30/01/2008 00:55:54
What a noble gesture of 0.075% of the world's population.
2

Roberta Burns,

30/01/2008 01:27:47
I'll do if if America does.
3

Roberta Burns,

30/01/2008 01:28:48
I'll do if if America does it.
4

Kipling,

30/01/2008 01:40:00
So if America doesn't, is that 0.075% of the world's population minus 1? Or if it does, 4.675% of the world's population including 1 ?
5

,

30/01/2008 01:43:12
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
6

Roberta Burns,

30/01/2008 01:50:08
6# America won't anyway. But, to be honest, I'm with you on the junk science. There's big money in them thar ideas.
7

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 30/01/2008 07:26:42
Cutting down on pollution always make excellent sense.

If selfish numpties don't care if their bad habits make life worse for others then one has to regret that and feel sadness for such wilful egotism.

I shall continue to behave with my usual selflessness towards my planet and my fellow beings.
8

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 30/01/2008 07:39:54
What bad habits would they be Rules? Existing?
9

Iain fae Elgin,

London 30/01/2008 07:46:21
Here's a few for those in charge:

Scrap the lights on all public buildings at night.

Take public transport to work. All of you. Every day.

Micro manage your personal waste and dispose of every last bit correctly.


When you have shown you can do this for a year, come back and report to us that, yes, it is possible, it can make a difference, and enact strong legislation compelling people to do the same.


Until then keep your hypocritical noses out of our business.
10

Guga II,

Rockall 30/01/2008 07:51:50
I'd still like some of these numpties and junk scientists to explain to me why Mars is heating up at about the same rate as the earth. Are the wee green men building too many coal fired power stations, like the Chinese, or are they overrun by 4x4's?

Then again, maybe it is something to do with that big white ball that appears in the sky every day; and Swinney's plans will be as effective as a gnat stinging an elephant's backside.
11

Goat Boy,

30/01/2008 08:03:57
The Scottish Government has just published new The Scottish Government has just published new statistics that show that were "2.59 million vehicles licensed in Scotland in 2006 ...the highest figure ever recorded...32 per cent more than in 1996". And for all you folk who think we can reduce our CO2 emissions, how about this one: "Motorway traffic was estimated to have increased by 40 per cent since 1996." This is the second largest source of greenhouse gas emissions in the UK, and look at the way it is increasing. The decision to build, build, build and the removal of bridge tolls is only going to exacerbate the situation.

Our leaders are failing to tackle the increasing levels of pollution in our cities. If they can’t sort the local problems - so how on earth are they going to tackle a world wide problem?
12

Number 6,

Germany 30/01/2008 08:05:25
There are plenty of fantastic recycling projects already under way in Europe. Austria has amazing systems in place, saving fortunes in energy, recycling nearly all their waste produced , and creating thousands of jobs, aimed at the long term unemployed. Scotland would do well to study and implement these systems where possible.
13

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 30/01/2008 08:08:35
12

By removing the tolls, you remove stationary traffic, which causes excessive CO2 output. By building better and slicker roads, you reduce time spent actualyl driving on the road, therefore time engine is running.

It is unlikely, given the credit crunch etc, that there will be anymore cars on the roads. That and the fact that only 2.59 million people are eligible to drive on the roads i.e. of the right age/intelligence etc.
14

eddylongshanks,

30/01/2008 08:14:16
You are right off course Guga on that point - but instead of all the doom sayers concentrating on global warming the emphasis should be on the earths finite resources
15

Goat Boy,

30/01/2008 08:29:01
Dave from Barra: That's not quite right. Cars that cover long distances produce more CO2 than cars stuck in a jam (look at the way cars are rated - CO2 emitted per Km travelled). Look at how motorway driving has increased – 40%! An engine that is idling will emit less CO2 than one that is travelling at speed because uses less fuel. So by increasing the bridge tolls, you would discourage car use and reduce the amount of CO2 emitted.

Alex and his buddies seem to have missed this point.
16

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 30/01/2008 08:44:46
Goat Boy

Considering that most journies in Scotland (or anywhere) are job related and therefore a regular journey done every day, could you please have a look at this link?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1072-2560540,00.html

The argument of increasing bridge tolls etc is a nonsense of course are there are only a finite amount of people that can actually take thier cars on the road and we have reached that limit already.
17

Baltiboy,

Tain 30/01/2008 08:57:33
There is a fantastic opportunity for Scotland to develop its economy around new energy generation given our geographical location and committment to a nuclear free future. Yes the impact of our carbon reductions will be low in terms of the bigger picture but that is not the point. We have the chance to become global leaders in this new industrial sector bringing huge benefit to some of our more remote communities and make an impact on emmisiions on a bigger stage. The Government now needs to match its laudable intentions with deeds and award planning permission to the Lewis windfarm, otherwise these pronouncements are hollow and meaningless.
18

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 30/01/2008 08:58:31
We dinnae want the wind farm ta. We'll built it for you, but you can have it.
19

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 30/01/2008 08:58:38
Attention all numpties!

Refusing to stop your own pollution unless and until everyone does so, makes as little moral sense as waiting for everyone to stop murdering their neighbours before you also stop.

The only behaviour you are responsible for is your own (and your child's). Act responsibly, please.
20

Goat Boy,

30/01/2008 09:01:44
Dave from Barra: I see where you get your stationary traffic argument? It’s not the traffic lights that are causing the problem; it’s the 1000s of cars trying to pass through them. The report also says that “Every litre of fuel burnt produces 2.4kg of our CO2 and other greenhouse gases” – commuter traffic is the problem and it only going to get worse. Tens of thousands of houses are going to be built in areas where there are no jobs. This will increase commuter traffic, because people will be forced to travel to work. Our leaders are throwing £500m at a tram that will fail to tackle this rapid expansion. It wasn't like this 25 years ago, so what has changed? Society has been allowed to evolve around the car - shopping, leisure, holidays, commuting - it's all car based.
21

Guthrie,

Edinburgh 30/01/2008 09:05:12
#11, Guga- Mars is not heating up at the same rate as the EArth. Why on earth would you expect it to? The warming is due to dust clouds and the odd fact that Mars has seasons, only its year is 2 years long...
22

Guthrie,

Edinburgh 30/01/2008 09:06:26
#6, harder truth- Smelting iron in your bathroom is silly. Do it in your back garden.
23

AJ Fife,

30/01/2008 09:11:30
Swinney is fast becoming a star of not just Scottish politics, but of world politics too! He displays all the characteristics of a true statesman.
24

GP,

30/01/2008 09:27:16
21# goatboy - and well named.
standing traffic is far less efficient than moving traffic. a car travelling at 56mph will use less fuel than if it is standing still. Motorway traffic should have increased I would have hope by more than 40% but then we don't have much motorway to count this on.
The climate change currently being evidenced as alleged by some politicians and scientists (but not all) has not been measured or evidenced over a long enough period for it to be attributed solely to man.

I therefore believe that climate is natural and the bigger worry is global dimming which has been proven.

Bridge tolls are simply stealth taxes and nothing more they will have no impact on climate changes. Neither will anything you or I do, whether that be degenerate into a feudal system again. I am sure those handfull of billionaires controlling the world would really like that.
25

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 30/01/2008 09:31:08
Car ownership will increase until everyone that wants one has one. We are still a long way from that saturation point.
Meanwhile the car ads all show a lone driver on empty roads in the middle of a picturesque wilderness that few drivers will ever enjoy.
Aspiration will be followed by frustration and disappointment and gridlock.
26

Doh,

30/01/2008 09:43:36


There is also a report that the cost of nuclear decommissioning has risen a further £12 BILLION to now £73 BILLION. It is expected to rise further.

Nuclear power to cheap to meter if you dont pay for the clean up costs. It is almost as a good a deal as Northern Rock - energy companies can make the profit, but the government cleans up the mess at taxpayers expense.

27

GP,

30/01/2008 09:57:43
I will put a bet on that this paper will not be around in 2050. By that it will not be owned by the same people nor delviered in the same format. It may not even be called by the same name.
28

Unimpressed one,

30/01/2008 10:02:47
"John Swinney, the finance secretary, said Scotland would cut greenhouse gases by 80 per cent by 2050 – a third more than the UK target over the same period." So another idiot has nailed his colours to the 'dangerous climate' mast. Of course by 2050 he'll be long gone and would never have to suffer the drastic cut in living standards imposed on that generation. Bamstick.
29

Unimpressed one,

30/01/2008 10:04:36
#24, AJFife, your comment is a joke, right?
30

Pmonkey7,

30/01/2008 10:25:03
#15 eddylongshanks,30/01/2008 08:14:16
instead of all the doom sayers concentrating on global warming the emphasis should be on the earths finite resources.

Good point.
31

AJM,

30/01/2008 10:53:56
Was a bit surprised that this announced by Swinney as my first reaction doesn't the SNP have an environment minister. Yep they do but he reports to Lochhead, whose brief is about water rega et al, all the important matters are with Swinney. Doesn't Swinney have enough to do?

I think that the idea of asking us what we think is a waste of time. In fact a deliberate waste of time so they can be saying they are taking action. Nothing like it.
The cynic in me thinks, it will take about a year to complete the discussion, another year to come up with some proposals. Well we are now into a run up to an election, SNP going to take any unpopular decisions before an election, no way. So four years lost. They are playing the same game that Labour are playing,it is pathetic.
If we do need to take action on global warming, then sooner will be easier than later, for us, later rather than sooner is politicians game.
If they are serious, do not give money to a sponsor to run hovercraft across the Forth and increase instead dramatically increase insulation and microgeneration grants. Not rocket science, question of priorities.
32

wordsworth,

30/01/2008 11:09:56
AJfife Are you on something pal,or just another scottish numb nuts
33

peteedinburgh,

Edinburgh 30/01/2008 11:10:48
Quite right too. Its damm cold here so fight the good fight for warmer weather.

Not sure about these wind farms that keep building though. Its windy enough already

34

ARP,

Scotland 30/01/2008 11:25:17
All great fun - let's all be greener than everyone else. But just look at the menu of solutions to the problem of keeping the lights on when our nuclear power is shut down maybe in just three years, after the next decennial inspection, maybe with a bit of luck a year or two longer.

Insulation - maybe if you live long enough, you might get a payback, but not one of the other proposed 'solutions' is a viable economic proposition and the technologies of many are far from proven.

Which is why the all the green merchants are swarming round to get grants of feasibility studies and whatever. If these were really runners, there would be big money in them- but they are not and there isn't.

Blue skies thinking, lateral thinking, thinking out of the box, call it what you will Mr Swinney business consultant, just ask two questions -

1 does it work?

2 does it pay off?

Otherwise we shall all be paying taxes for ever to keep the snake-oil salesmen in business for ever. Won't we, Mr Swinney?
35

kimba,

30/01/2008 11:26:41
34.LOL, he's on the dole,hence thr brain dead approach.
36

kimba,

30/01/2008 11:28:28
Well done alex,not that it will make a jot of difference!
37

GP,

30/01/2008 11:35:39
36# absolutely spot on.
You have hit this nail on the head.
38

AJ Fife,

30/01/2008 11:36:33
#37 Kimba wrote "34.LOL, he's on the dole,hence thr brain dead approach."

Interesting as per usual, especially as you can't spell a simple three letter word! Do you have a degree in making an *rse of yourself or is it just pure natural ability?
39

wordsworth,

30/01/2008 11:36:38
Kimba Not all scots are idiots,these posts seem to bring out the worst in them
40

Buttweld,

30/01/2008 11:41:16
Once the UK has significantly depleted its oil and natural gas (not too long away) we will need all the wind power we can get. I would rather have sensibly priced power and a load of wind turbines (including on Lewis) than be paying thousands of pounds a year for electricity so that Scottish Power can outbid the rest of world to buy Russian/ Norwegian gas.
41

Neil,

Glasgow 30/01/2008 11:57:01
So we are to cut CO2 even more drasticly than the EU or even England, thus no coal power generators, even as back up for wind, no nuclear because it isn't Luddite enough, so the lights go out when it isn't windy & tens of thousands die unnecessarily each winter. & even then they aren't satisfied:

"But Patrick Harvie, a Green MSP, said more needed to be done."

As someone said on here recently the difference between a terrorist & an eco-fascist is that sometimes you can negotiate with a terrorist.
42

n/,

Perth 30/01/2008 12:00:37
#8. "Cutting down on pollution always makes sense"?Please Rulesbutnotrulers ,how's about taking some of your own advice and start by not polluting these postings with your own bullshit?
"Atention all numpties"? Aye right!!!!!!!!!!
43

Ayrshire Scot™,

30/01/2008 12:03:01
Nuclear energy's a big no no, even if it's cleaner than anything else and the best way to meet emission targets, it's a bit like staying in the UK: it's something we're against and we won't hear anyone tell us otherwise.
44

AJM,

30/01/2008 12:17:11
What does not square up is the clean coal idea. Because AS wants clean coal, or really less dirty coal, which still belches out 80% of the CO2, we are going to have to make greater sacrifices than if we went down the nuclear route. One will be a financial penalty of clean up the other will be personal cost as our activity will have to alter to compensate for the CO2 in coal power stations.

#45 Good point that the SNP have no consideration of nuclear as a matter of no negotiation, even though it might be best for Scotland and the climate in the short term.
45

tomislav,

Home 30/01/2008 12:23:19
10 Elgin Ian ,,,, Where did you find all that sand in Elgin to bury your head in ,,,,,

Public transport ,,, Exspensive (very!), infrequent, inconvenient ,,, until it is,,, forget it ,,,end of story!!!

turn off lights on public buildings at night ,,, thats a cracker ,,, I want them to actually work longer, you want to send them home ,,, ehh ok !!!

Micro Manage every bit of waste ,,, Why when our society bombards you non stop, from every angle, "buy buy buy" where is the sense in buying what you dont need,,, just to manage the microns of watse


No mate before I take any notice of this "save the planet" rubbish I want to see intiatives such as

Government sponsored non stop, multi channel, relentless, campaign "Dont buy, you dont need it" ,, "buy less"

Restricted shopping ours, no more late all night shooping and definately no more Sundays, except perhaps for the more logical stores (DiY, Chemist, Newsagnet)

Free public tranport, everywhere, always

Massive punative really sore tax on new goods (I am sick of seeing good washing machines, cookers etc etc being dumped in the recycling centres because the owner wants a change of colour in the kitchen, or it isn't really worth getting it fixed !!!!!!!!!)

These are just a few ideas, I know they will never happen, but forgive me, until this type of emphasis is placed on this subject, yer all only playing at it, children in the sand
46

wordsworth,

30/01/2008 12:25:24
Salmond is going over the top on this one,when the lights go out don't worry England will be there for you
47

AJM,

30/01/2008 12:28:25
Reading the document they are plugging a new Scottish Committee on Climate Change, when there is already a UK one thats remit is to serve Scotland. Recent announcement on getting rid of quangos, perhaps only included Labour originated ones and clearing the way for SNP generated ones.
48

Miss H,

30/01/2008 12:43:19
Most of these comments are basically rubbish. I don't particularly care whether or not you cranks believe in global warming, according to whatever mad stuff you have been reading on the internet. If you guys were writing letters about this stuff they would all be in green ink. Do you know what I am saying?

The point is not whether or not you believe in global warming - the point is whether or not you believe these are sensible proposals. I think they are. I personally believe that they will benefit the planet but they will also benefit individuals as well by enabling them to be more energy efficient. The benefit from that is lower fuel bills - permamently. In a country which still suffers from scandalously high levels of fuel poverty that is something that everyone should welcome whether or not you believe in global warming.

49

Mcsnagpile,

30/01/2008 12:43:50
Whether we save or power not, there is only so much fossil fuel in the world if we do not burn it certainly somebody else will. Try telling the Paddi Wallers and company to stop development. Asia is building Power Plants as if there is no tomorrow and maybe there isn’t. How do we tell the third world to stop using resources.

As far as BP is concerned carbon capture is experimental with many down sides. UAE is a better place to build it, considering they flush desalinated water down the toilets, and keep shopping malls at freezing level when the ambient is 47Degree C.
We are already in peak oil production and demand will continue to rise even in recession. USA has increased demand for crude in recently years, more, than the entire UK demand.-- this in the face of reduced demand in the UK and Europe. Shall we give a good example to all the happy revellers.
50

AJM,

30/01/2008 12:44:01
Tomislav
Good points How about including:

Fines to shops who deliberately leave their doors open in cold weather so all the heat goes outside all day.

Give greater rights on the road pedestrians, cyclists and buses rather than King Car.

Make supermarkets, fast food shops, electrical stores pay for the packaging rubbish, rather than us. I never ask for an acre of plastic on a tiny item that takes 20min and an array of diy tools to open.

Put in place a 50 mile speed limit as they will be less bunching and queues.
51

Miss H,

30/01/2008 12:51:19
51 You are quite right that there is only so much fossil fuel in the world and when that resource runs out it runs out. In the lead up to that point we will see sky high prices, quite possibly wars, famine, disaster and general collapse of civilisation as we know it..

That's why it makes sense to prepare for a future which will largely be fuelled by renewable resources and to invest in developing the technologies we will need to get us there. Which is pretty much what this consultation is about.
52

n/,

Perth 30/01/2008 12:52:33
#50Miss H "Lower fuel bills" Where do you live!

The sooner we get back to electricity bills being itemised, the sooner the gullable will see for themselves what all this green nonsense is actually costing the consumer in their pockets not least those living in fuel poverty who are already struggling to pay their bills now.
53

AJM,

30/01/2008 12:53:56
Miss H I have just read the SNP proposal, must have missed the low fuel bills bit, I thought that they would have to rise to make people not squander it as they do at the moment. Whatever fuel poverty is, then the these people that suffer it must be very depressed at the way governments allow businesses and organisations to waste it. This is not just a pop at the SNP as UK government has been as bad.

Although I did read the bit about wanting to spew out CO2 in coal fired power stations and then wanting it stuffed underground once they have done it. I do not know what energy it would take to do this, my guess is quite a lot.
54

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 30/01/2008 12:57:15
Hello Guga II,

My dear fellow, for your #11, you're a true GEM!

The sheer idiocy of the Chicken Littles never ceases to amaze me; the growing number of reliable and recognized scientists who have gathered an ever growing mountain of evidence CONTRADICTING the dogmatic mantra "The Humans are Doing It!" (causing Global Warming), is IGNORED by the C.L.'s.

The only answer the C.L.'s have is:

More Taxes!
Fewer Cars.
More Taxes.
Less Electricity and HIGHER Electric rates.
More Taxes.
Double the cost of Petrol and Diesel.
More Taxes.
Fewer People on the planet (but NONE of THEM ever offer to leave the planet!).
and of course,
MORE TAXES!

Cheers from the Rockies
55

Miss H,

30/01/2008 13:01:30
I live in Scotland. You actually typify the problem. It is all about the price of electricity to you, not the usage. Would you go on forever using much more electricity than you need, forever complaining about rising bills, without even thinking about how microgeneration, combined heat and power, better building standards and so on can reduce the amount that you use?

I think the answer is probably yes.

The Government does have a massive job ahead of it to get people thinking in those terms instead of simply saying I want an itemised bill.
56

AJM,

30/01/2008 13:05:39
#53 Miss H
My reading of the document is that it is about how the government will be measured, who will do, how are targets going to be set and how much control will there be on local authorities.
It says very little on technologies, which I thought was disappointing, mush greater emphasis a lot of questions about creating a new quango for scotland.
57

Miss H,

30/01/2008 13:05:50
55 As I was just saying the less you use the less you pay. OK we are not all going to be living in carbon neutral houses by next Wednesday but you have to start somewhere. Getting people to understand that being more energy efficient and less wasteful has benefits for them as individuals, as well as for the planet, will I believe be crucial in actually changing behaviour.
58

n/,

Perth 30/01/2008 13:08:12
#57 Miss H, get the blinkers off. I can only think you have an open cheque book at your disposal. Usage is what the elderly the sick and those living in to do to stay warm in this climate
59

Miss H,

30/01/2008 13:10:17
58 Yes I was referring to general policy more than simply this particular proposal for a bill. Obviously government does not develop technologies directly, the academic and private sector does that.
60

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 30/01/2008 13:14:07
Hello Goat Boy,

Since you're one of the Chicken Little's running around screaming 'gloom and doom', allow me to educate you a little about the impact of automobiles on the Global Warming Issue:

Just ONE Volcano Eruption puts the equivalent in toxins and emissions (CO2) of the ENTIRE OUTPUT of ALL the automobiles in the ENTIRE USA.

Read that paragraph again will you Goat Boy?

Just one little ole erupting volcano pumps enough CO2 into the atmosphere to match the output of ALL the cars driving around in the USA, for an ENTIRE YEAR.

Soooooo......one would ask, "Just how many eruptions occur each year?"

Wellllll..........in 2006 there were 67 volcanic eruptions across the globe. Oh wait, that would be ABOVE GROUND eruptions of volcanos.

We have ZERO idea of how many sub-oceanic eruptions occur each year.

Then again, we have the Thermal Plumes in sub-oceanic territory. You've surely heard of those, have you not? They're the tall plumes on the bottom of the oceans of the world, which spew forth MASSIVE TOXIC GASES and PARTICLES into the ocean (and please take a moment to remember basic physics; heat rises, gases in water rise to the surface, and oh yeah, once they hit the air, they rise to higher altitudes in the atmosphere).

These Thermal Plumes are so hot, that the submersibles can't get too close to them: they're emanating about 700-800 DEGRESS Fahrenheit and anything hotter than about 375 degrees would melt the plexiglas and kill the submariners.

Soooo...........

Despite the anti-American drivel from Roberta Burns, were EVERY American to permanently park their cars tomorrow, it would have ZERO real world impact on stopping Global Warming.

Unless you or any of the other Rad Enviros can STOP volcanoes from erupting, CO2 levels will NOT drop.

Unless you or the Green Groups offering up draconian policies can stop the Thermal Plumes from spewing forth their toxic gases and materials on a 24/7/365 basis, CO2 gases will NOT drop.

How
61

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 30/01/2008 13:14:48
Hello Goat Boy cont.,

How about you Chicken Little's stop running around screaming that the End of the World is Nigh, and DEAL with the FACT, that the Sun has a major impact on GW (Global Warming), that Natural Occurrences are making the major impact, AND lastly, that we had better come up with SOLUTIONS; NOT to stop GW (which can't be done), but to ADAPT to GW conditions.

In other words, pull your heads out and put your noses to the grind stone.

Cheers from the Rockies
62

n/,

Perth 30/01/2008 13:15:41
#57 Miss H, get the blinkers off. I can only think you have an open cheque book at your disposal. Usage is what the elderly the sick and those living in fuel poverty are forced to do to stay warm in this climate.
In being forced to turn down their usage,which many ARE ahaving to do because of the ever rising costs, puts them at great health risk. All the "improvements"you are talking about cost a lot of money and it is money the poor and the vulnerable HAVE NOT GOT! Microgeneration indeed! Have you any idea of the costs and the meagre output,and the payback time!.
I have little doubt by your arrogant posting, you won't pay heed to what I have to say so please go and access the witings of George Monbiot( not least on microgeneration) and learn.
63

Miss H,

30/01/2008 13:25:22
60 My blinkers are off. The reason we have rates of excess winter deaths and fuel poverty that is much higher than in colder countries -such as Scandinavian countries and Germany - is because we do not heat our homes as efficiently as they do. Prices have been rising all across Europe and will continue to rise as fossil fuels become scarcer. You cannot do anything about that. We know that this is going to happen. That is why it is essential a) to increase the amount of energy generated from renewables and b) become much more energy efficient so that we use energy more efficiently and do not waste massive amounts of it as happens at present.
64

Neil,

Glasgow 30/01/2008 13:35:33
"Prices have been rising all across Europe and will continue to rise as fossil fuels become scarcer. You cannot do anything about that"

What absolute nonsense. Coal is not getting scarcer in fact it has never been cheaper. In any case we perfectly well how to produce unlimited power at half the cost of coal. The increase in costs (& excess deaths & the fact that ourv economy is growing at half the world average) is entirely because we have submitted to the hysterical demands of the eco-fascists.

We can indeed do something about that.
65

n/,

Perth 30/01/2008 13:37:55
"We know" do we!!!!!!!!!! By your posting and having lived and worked in all the countries you mention I think not. I ask you once again! How are the poor and vulnerable going to pay for all this nonsense AND PLEASE go and do your sums as to the cost in the pocket of the consumer for INTERMITTENT UNRELIABLE renewables!
66

n/,

Perth 30/01/2008 13:43:05
......and fossil fuels are not in short supply.There is coal in abundance....... that is why the Scottish Gov. for right or wrong and of course for political reasons,wants to invest in clean coal technology.
67

Guthrie,

Edinburgh 30/01/2008 13:44:00
Neanderthal at #62- what volcanic eruptions are you talking about, that are currently putting billions of tons of CO2 into the atmosphere?

Anyway, got to love your pseudoscience. You do realise that if thermal plumes in the ocean were responsible, it would be warming from the bottom up?
68

,

30/01/2008 13:49:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
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69

NovaScotia™,

30/01/2008 13:51:07
62. Quite right Neanderthal. Best to ignore the bulk of scientific evidence, and base policies on hoping for the best, on spurious conjecture largely funded by vested interest, rather than taking reasonable pre-emptive mitigating action now, just in case....

Those blights who complained about benzenes, azoic dyes in foods, lead in petrol etc were just a bunch of chicken littles proclaiming doom and gloom. Luckily they mostly died and we were spared their "told you so" crowing. Far better to wait and see if we all die then react I say rather then be bullied by scientists into reasonable preventative actions.
70

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 30/01/2008 14:00:08
Hello Miss H,

Yes, as a matter of fact, the COST of the monthly electric bill DOES reside in the forefront of my mind: because I'm NOT an arrogant Elitist like yourself, without a bit of understanding or humanity for poor people (of which I am one such).

You're all for higher taxes and higher energy costs, because YOU don't have to scrounge, scrape, and search, for where you're going to come up with the money, to pay for keeping from freezing during a really cold Winter!

This Winter is MILD compared to normal Winters, but we've STILL gotten down to -24 (without Windchill factored in), with MANY days in the -10 to -15.

C'mon my dear arrogant Elitist, just how are me and my poor neighbors supposed to generate the EXTRA money to pay for all those days? Were this a Normal Winter, we'd have a WEEK of -50 to -60, with several weeks where two to three days a week would hit -20 to -35....all temps in Fahrenheit.

I'm NOT on the public dole, not suckling at the Public Teat, but still poorer than dirt (due to my health).

This is one of the major problems with the Radical Environmentalists (that's YOU Miss H); you don't give a flying fig for the poor, or the working lower middle class; you're stuck in that Ivory Tower of Arrogance, where Elitists live; wouldn't want to soil yourself with rubbing elbows with the Plebs, now would we?

I have called for PROPER and INTELLIGENT tax incentives (NOT raiding people's pockets) for both businesses and individuals, to CUT energy usage AND to CREATE energy. This can be done through HOME BASED Wind Turbines and Solar Arrays. Each and every home would have their own, with Row Housing sharing several Wind Turbines (not the megawatt sizes, 100Kw size).

These are the kind of solutions which would help, in the REAL WORLD (a place which you and your fellow Rad E's avoid at all costs).

Cheers from the Rockies
71

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 30/01/2008 14:09:42
Hello Guthrie,

re your 70:

"What eruptions?" I take it you've just gotten an Internet Connection, cannot actually read (you've got the Voice Actuator of your OS turned on), and have been living under a rock in the Middle of Nowhere, to have missed all the eruptions of volcanoes.

I hate to burst your bubble further, but you also seem to have missed the cries and shrieks from the Chicken Little Crowd, loudly bemoaning the RISE in OCEAN TEMPERATURES during the last 20 years?

All this Global Warming business, all these bigger and more powerful storms ring any bells? Your fellow Rad Enviros (aka Enviro-Fascists) have been collaring every journalist, every periodical, every politician, every bureaucrat, they can get to listen to them, singing the blues about ever RISING OCEAN TEMPS!!!

Sooooo.......how about you get with the program and get someone to teach you to read, or buy a better Voice Recognition Program, to read multisyllabic scientific words?

Cheers from the Rockies
72

from_a_distant_shore,

Quebec 30/01/2008 14:10:39
Bravo Scotland the Brave!

Fighting climate change is a movement from the grassroots towards the more immediate lower levels of government with the hope of making a difference at the top.

In the US and in Canada, the positive changes are coming about at the municipal, state and provincial governments. In 2008, expect to see both the anti-environmentalist president George Bush and prime minister Stephen Harper replaced. In Canada, all three opposition parties and, in fact, the majority of the population is embarassed by the woeful performance of our federal government. In the US, the is a great possibility that with the arrival of either McCain, Obama or Clinton to the presidency, the US will ratify Kyoto.

Essentially, it is the smaller jurisdictions like Scotland, California and British Columbia that are assuming the leadership roles to show the way towards post-Kyoto objectives.
73

,

30/01/2008 14:17:50
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
74

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 30/01/2008 14:36:01
Hello Nova Scotia,

Lovely area of the world you live in, but apparently the cold has frozen the synapses of your brain.

The 'bulk' of science about GW, is riddled with holes, 'facts' which are not actually facts, rather, they are suppositions based upon partial data.

Example: the Enviro-Fascists have claimed and keep claiming, that both the Ice Shelves of Greenland and Antarctica have been and currently are SHRINKING, that we've lost hundreds if not thousands of square miles of Ice Shelf. Their 'living evidence' are the Polar Bears; the bears are supposedly dying like semi-frozen flies, because the ice is going bye, bye.

Lo and behold 'Science Magazine' tells a different story:

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/308/5730/1898

Greenland also has seen an increase in its Ice Shelf:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/11/051107080830.htm

http://ec.europa.eu/research/headlines/news/article_05_11_08_en.html

Polar Bear Populations are GROWING not declining, about which the Enviro-Fascists keep lying:

http://scienceline.org/2007/02/05/health_driscoll_polarbears/

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,138346,00.html

The bottom line my dear NS, is that Ice Shelves are growing, Polar Bear pops are growing, while at the same time there IS a slight median global temperature rise, marked changes in weather (COLDER oddly enough in many places) particularly destructive storms, more volcanoes are erupting and with greater frequency of the explosive variety, and desertification is increasing to a very minor degree.

So what does all that mean?

Scientists haven't the slightest idea.

They know all these events, occurrences, and all too often contradictory changes are occurring, but they do NOT know the sources for the changes, or why contradictory meteorological events can occur simultaneously (Ice Shelves growing while Oceanic Temps continue to rise).

These are the problems we face, but the Enviro-Fascists do not care about
75

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 30/01/2008 14:37:04
Hello Nova Scotia cont.,


These are the problems we face, but the Enviro-Fascists do not care about the contradictory evidence. They do NOT care that so many scientists of note and quality reputation are coming forth to CONTRADICT the Enviro-Fascists doomsday "Humans are Causing It" dogmas.

Why in the world would any intelligent person want to throw TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS/EUROS through various policies and laws, which we have ZERO EVIDENCE, would affect one iota, GW (Global Warming)?

We know what the human costs would be though: an ENORMOUS RISE in poverty, human suffering (not being able to keep warm during Winter or cool during hot Summers), less money for the necessities of life (food, housing, clothing, transport, etc.), which would cause a massive increase of deaths.

The other negative outcome should the policies of the Enviro-Fascists be made reality, is the severe drop in all the economies of the modernized nations. Massive job losses (business costs go through the roof, which means layoffs), seriously higher unemployment, which translates into higher crime rates, higher government costs (public dole), which means HIGHER TAXES.

Sooooo........how about we actually try and figure this thing out, before we act like a bunch of Lemmings and leap off the cliff, looking for Paradise on the other side of the Great Body of Water.

I refuse to be a Lemming NS, you may if you like, but I have family about which I care, friends about whom I care, and I'm poorer than dirt right now, so my ability to survive in a future created by you and your fellows, would be greatly diminished.

Hope you don't mind if I choose to fight you with every bit of my remaning strength, to keep you from killing me.

Cheers from the Rockies
76

NovaScotia™,

30/01/2008 14:45:48
77 Neanderthal

what a pity you preface every contribution with some banal abuse - it positively screams of insecurity.

So your "holes" are some data on some ice sheets? Despite hunderds of studies on various glaciers and ice sheets? What do you make of data on CO2 and other greenhouse gas levels in our atmosphere? Rising or not?

Carry on rejecting the evidence - hopefully others wil take a more balanced view and reasonable mitigatory policies will come into effect.

Cheers

77

Miss H,

30/01/2008 14:50:05
Neanderthal you are well named. You should team up with nl in Perth and set up a new political movement facing backwards!

If the cost of your electricity bill resides at the front of your mind, has it ever occurred to you to wonder whether most of the energy you pay such a high price for goes straight out the windows and walls and roof because your house is not insulated properly? That is the problem with many homes in Scotland. Not only are they not insulated properly, many of them are not even built properly. That is the key difference between Scotland and Scandinavia and why we have higher levels of fuel poverty than they do.

nl does make one fair point that there is a cost in improving building standards and installing micro-renewables etc but that cost does not have to be borne by the individual. I know of several pilots in social housing schemes across the UK using ground source heat pumps for example. Yes, there is a cost in installing them but thereafter you have a low cost source of heat which will never run out. These are the kinds of things that government at every level needs to be supporting because, whether you like it or not, we will not be generating our energy by burning fossil fuels in 50 years time.
78

Neil,

Glasgow 30/01/2008 14:58:09
"there is a cost in improving building standards and installing micro-renewables etc but that cost does not have to be borne by the individual."

You mean the cost will be paid by government. Which in turn means it will be borne by all us individuals, after including the substantial costs of government tax collection & administration of grants etc.

The net result is that we almost all pay far more though the eco-fascists don't pay directly for windmillery they would never dream of buying if the rest of us weren't paying for it. And we end up with more government control & more government employees of course, which may be the ultimate purpose.
79

Am-Bodach,

30/01/2008 15:02:32
However well intentioned, attempts to mitigate climate change through gestures such as wind and solar energy will fail. Indeed, the use of these technologies will be no more effective in reducing global mean temperature than bailing out the Titanic with a thimble. Notwithstanding "step in the right direction" arguments, the climate will change, and glaciers and ice caps will continue to melt at their present rate for a long, long time. The technology capable of mitigating climate change does not yet exist. Consequently, our financial resources would be better spent on R&D, rather than enriching shareholders in energy firms. In simplistic terms, we need a technology that can remove a few hundred petagrammes of carbon dioxide from the atmosphere - can mankind develop such a technology? I hope that I am wrong, but I suspect this is less likely than Forfar winning the European champions league.
80

AJM,

30/01/2008 15:04:11
#80 Miss H completely agree with you with. Now thats a change.

I would like to see the government giving proper grants to help fund fuel cost reductions. What has been to date has been bitty and confusing.

Although I was being a bit flippant earlier, I honestly believe that the public do need to see a government taking visible action like making shops shut doors at the moment the air conditioning is blasting away all year. Some may conclude that energy is still cheap nad not worth saving.
81

GP,

30/01/2008 15:08:11
Miss H - you started by supporting GW and now you are actually postign far more about social economics. I applaud your stance on improvind housing conditions but we have had over 50 years of local labour government and they have really done very little in this area. Yes after the war we could have adopted Swedish and Norwegian build standards, why did we not?
I suggest that you get very much on a soap box and start to prod those in power and who have side stepped their responsibility so far. Our pensioners (one group) who get a very raw deal and die in their thousands every year because of fuel poverty will not be able to afford renewable energy as it is more expensive than nuclear or coal and oil generated energy.
Instead of taxing more and more we should spend less on weapons and delvier the promise of a low energy using warm house for all.
It should never take a lie such as GW it sho