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Holyrood presses Westminster for control of firearms legislation

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Published Date: 27 August 2007
By HAMISH MACDONELL
SCOTTISH POLITICAL EDITOR
SCOTTISH ministers last night increased the pressure on their UK counterparts to hand over control of firearms to Holyrood.
Kenny MacAskill, the justice secretary, wrote to Jacqui Smith, the Home Secretary, asking for a clear timetable for legislation allowing the Scottish Executive to ban airguns north of the Border.

Firearms is one of the areas which remains reserve
d to Westminster and Scottish ministers are not allowed to legislate on the issue without the clear consent of the UK government.

The SNP administration has been discussing the issue with the UK government for the past few weeks and has received a "sympathetic" response from Westminster.

A spokesman for Alex Salmond, the First Minister, said yesterday: "There has been constructive dialogue between Scottish ministers and their Westminster counterparts on enabling the Scottish Parliament to lay a framework for a consolidated Firearms Act designed for Scottish needs and circumstances. This is an area where we would like to secure progress as soon as possible, as we would wish early legislation, and the response has been understanding and sympathetic."

He added: "We need to look afresh at the existing firearms legislation, which has been amended considerably over the past 20 years. There is a need to put in place a modern and readily enforceable system with a greater emphasis on public safety, and deal with the particular problem of air weapons crime in Scotland, as well as the weapons culture more generally."

Mr Salmond met Jack Straw, the Lord Chancellor and Justice Secretary, in Edinburgh on 13 July, and has since written to him. Mr MacAskill met Ms Smith and Vernon Coaker, the Home Office minister, on 19 July.

While airguns are a problem throughout the UK, they pose a particularly acute problem in Scotland where there has been a sharp increase in airgun crime in recent years, the Executive argues.

New UK-wide laws went on to the Westminster statute book last year. These effectively outlaw the sale of airguns at car boot sales, corner shops, and outlets not regulated by police.

The legislation also lifts the age limit for owning airguns from 17 to 18, tightens the law on firing air weapons from private property, and effectively outlaws mail order and internet sales.

But in March, two families of airgun victims, including the relatives of two-year-old Andrew Morton, from Glasgow, handed a petition to Holyrood seeking a ban on personal ownership of handguns.

The Executive argues that it could acquire powers over airguns in one of two ways - either through devolving firearms legislation permanently to Edinburgh, or a one-off procedure in which Westminster could agree to Holyrood legislating in this area.

Des Browne, the Scottish Secretary, said: "We are aware of the issues raised by Scottish ministers and, while our discussions with the Scottish Executive remain at an early stage, our priority is to work with them and other devolved administrations to ensure communities throughout the UK are protected from gun crime."



Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 26 August 2007 9:15 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Devolution , Airguns
 
1

The Fly Fifer,

Fife 27/08/2007 02:47:01

Ban airguns DUH is gonna have the same impact as banning handguns ............... they will go underground and become "attractive" for goodness sake thousands of Illegals have walked, driven, been bused, trained and planed into Scotland so airguns will be nae bother.

Let me pass on a old story,

Three men were walking by a river all of a sudden babies were seen floating down two of the men immediately jumped in taking the babies out and putting them on the bank.

they realised their colleague did not join them ....... when asked why he simply said I am going to the source of the problem to stop them being put in .................

2

Captain Fantastic,

Anywhere but here 27/08/2007 06:39:54

Politicians are thick as mince. Interested only in the next headline, they keep pushing the same old tired policies. There is already more than enough firearms' legislation to tackle the issue of air gun (or any kind of gun) abuse. Don't they keep boasting how we have 'the among toughest firearms' legislation in the world'? A great success it seems to be. After all, in the wake of the handgun ban in 1998 Alun Michael, then a Home Office Minister, boasted the the government had 'taken guns off the street'. Yeah, right. Tell that the Rhys Jones's parents. Guns are not the problem - prior to the first Firearms' Act in 1920, anyone could own a gun without a license and gun related crime was virtually non-existant. 87 years of increasingly restrictive legislation and gun crime in this country is getting out of control while the law-abiding majority are denied the means to defend themeselves - and the government, police and judiciary don't seem to care other than to scramble around for some soundbite, some action, however futile, that will make them 'be seen to be doing something'. Is it any wonder that the 'authorities' are held in such contempt? Is it any wonder that crime is rising? The crims know that they can get away with it! There are reckoned to be over 500,000 airguns in circulation in Scotland (though the real figure is likely to be higher - no-one really knows). Banning them will make not one blind bit of difference. Class A drugs are banned. That's been a stunning success hasn't it? Until the causes of gun crime are tackled and the punishment fits the crime, tinkering with the laws (which, by definition, crims ignore anyway) there will be no reduction in firerarms' misuse. Get that, Mr McAskill?

3

eric,

Lothian 27/08/2007 07:00:47

I remember Blackpool Borough Council Putting in some by laws to stop Locals selling the tacky blow up dolls etc etc ,The locals were very angry,And one shop to make a point .Pushed his air guns and knives out onto the front of the shop on the street selling them ,There was nothing the police or council could do ,

4

Billy,

Germany 27/08/2007 07:30:03

#1 And until I find the source, I don't give a dam how many babies drown. And the moral of the story is ?

5

Weary of Legislation,

Edinburgh 27/08/2007 08:52:47

I have to say I wholly agree with 'Captain Fantastic' and the points made in the post.
This is nothing but grandstanding by the snp to force either the devolution of reserved powers (A win they can trumpet if they are succesful in the attempt to wrest them from Westminster or a win if they are unable to obtain these powers as it reinforces their claim that Scotland needs independence from Westminster to allow proper solution of local problems.)
This 'baby in the water' analogy is flawed in that all the necessary laws ALREADY exist to prosecute criminal behaviour with any airgun or firearm.
The problem is that the existing laws are not enforced regarding the criminals abusing airguns.

The solution is to tackle to root cause of the lack of respect for other people, animals and property.
I realise that anti gun people will not be swayed by logic, fact or statistics and that their blinkered view is only reinforced by political manouevering such as this.

6

Alexander,

Edinburgh 27/08/2007 09:09:06

Why would the scum want an air gun when they can get a "real" firearm for £50?

7

cinstone,

U.K. 27/08/2007 09:15:11

IF POLITICIANS & THOUGHS OF YOU WHO AGREE WITH THEM ON THIS THINK IT WILL STOP CRIMINALS & THE LIKE MISS USING AIR GUNS & GUNS IN GENERAL, WHAT ARE YOU THINKING?

Let's try & put a few facts together & then people can make a judgement based on them & not just on hearsay.

So, some folk want air guns banned. Well after the Dunblane incident, handguns were banned in a kneejerk reaction to the incident. Ask yourselves this if you will. Has it stopped anyone, 1, Getting hold of handguns. 2, The use of these handguns. 3, Has it stopped anyone getting injured or killed by the use of these handguns? The answer is no.

Illegally held handguns, as we have seen recently, are in the hands of certain people. Firstly, may I underline the fact that these handguns are illegally purchased kept & used by these people, who do not want to abide by the law in this country.

There are many accidents in cars in these isles caused by dangerous & irresponsible drivers. Should we therfore ban all cars for everyone because of this? How many folk would vote for that?

8

White Rabbit,

Wonderland 27/08/2007 09:19:58

#4 : Moral - make enough resources available to stop the problem at its source. Make the river illegal.

Licenced firearms, air guns... what next? Better ban knives to stop all the knife crime. Oh, hang on.....

9

sceptic,

livingston 27/08/2007 09:26:01

"The Home Office figures - which exclude crimes involving air weapons - show the number of deaths and injuries caused by gun attacks in England and Wales soared from 864 in 1998-99 to 3,821 in 2005-06. That means that more than 10 people are injured or killed in a gun attack every day."
Banning air guns won't lead to a 450% increase in air gun crime, not when the neds see that having an illegal real firearm is no more serious than having an air gun.

#2
"among toughest firearms' legislation in the world"
Yes, and the fastest growing gun crime in the developed world!

10

sam the god,

27/08/2007 09:28:01

if old leapy gets his way will the goverment pay the full market value for the airguns and all the equipment that will be obsolite i think not it will be the same as the handgun ban where the owners are left out of pocket

11

There Must Be A Better Way...,

27/08/2007 09:41:34

The issue:

Misuse of airguns by antisocial individuals.


Laws currently pending, coming into force October:

* VCR bill will require all sales of airguns to be made face to face at a registered firearms dealer, plus other measures.


Possible failings in the VCR bill:

* Existing antisocial individuals will not hand in airguns. Airguns will therefore only be taken off the street 'one at a time', after offences are committed.


Some proposed solutions from the SNP and others:

* Airgun licensing - requiring a licence to hold and buy airguns
* Required need demonstrated to obtain licence
* Airguns only allowed to be held at clubs
* Full ban of airguns


Problems with the proposals:

Unfortunately, none of the proposals put forward will solve any of the existing problems, and will instead penalise honest law abiding citizens, and possibly deprive them of their sport and pastime. The problems with each measure are outlined below:


* Licensing - A percentage of shooters would not be opposed per-se to some form of licensing. However, there are a number of serious issues with licensing that will need to be recognised and addressed before adopting this approach:

1. Licensing will not solve the problem of illegal use of airguns by antisocial individuals in the short, medium, or even long term. Such individuals will not obtain licences for their already existing airguns, and will carry on with their already illegal antisocial behaviour as before, perhaps even with greater gusto as they would be breaking one more law still whilst doing so.

2. Licensing will cost everyone involved a lot of time and money, for no demonstrable gain.

3. Licensing will place a massive burden on an already overloaded licensing system.

4. Licensing will not stop a black market in airguns which will undermine any attempts to control them, reference the increase in pistol crime sin

12

There Must Be A Better Way...,

27/08/2007 09:42:48

2. Airgun clubs are small, and usually have a large membership who own many airguns per individual. There would not be the room to house all these airguns.

3. Airgun clubs are often in woodlands, fields, and other out the way places. Their premises are often without electricity or phone lines. It would be difficult or impossible to secure such premises against sustained burglary attempts. Any successful burglary attempt would net the criminal many airguns at one time, which would no doubt be sold on the black market to fuel the antisocial behaviour we are trying to stop.

4. Again, airguns are low powered, and also quiet, and are therefore suitable for use on premises including many private homes for both target practice and vermin control. Requiring that they be held only in clubs would either deprive the honest citizen of their chosen sport, hobby, and utility of safely and legally using airguns on their own property, as has been done for many years.

5. Many competitions are held every weekend with clubs visiting one another for matches. Such events would entail much more travel, including car usage, in order to fetch the airguns from the club, and then go to the other club where the competition is being held, thus adding to congestion, expense, and pollution, as well as inconveniencing the sportsmen and women.

6. Many times an airgun will be used in the rain. Airguns used during rain will need to be stripped and dried before cleaning and assembly, a task that is only usually satisfactorily carried out at home or in another warm and day place. Airgun clubs are very often not such a place.

7. Airguns are often used or 'out of hours' during the night time, for example on golf courses to reduce the vermin numbers that would otherwise cause disturbance to the course. Access to the airgun clubs is difficult or impossible during such hours.


* Full ban of airguns

1. Such a ban would cost the taxpayer millions of pounds in

13

There Must Be A Better Way...,

27/08/2007 09:44:08

2. Again, such a move would not affect the antisocial element, who will again ignore any laws brought into effect, and continue with their behaviour as before. Again, only once caught would there be the possibility of removing any of the antisocial persons airguns be possible, on a case by case basis.

3. A ban would deprive millions of honest, tax paying and voting citizens of their enjoyable sport and past time, and deprive property owners, farmers, councils, golf courses, athletic grounds, and many other areas of an effective and environmentally friendly way of keeping down the numbers of rats and other vermin, that would otherwise cause millions of pounds worth of damage to property, crops, and land, and that would require other less safe methods such as poisons to reduce the numbers.


Summary

Although the need to counter some antisocial issues regarding the misuse of airguns is acknowledged, unfortunately none of the proposals would remove any current problems of illegal use, and in certain cases may exasperate them.

As well as inconveniencing or even outlawing the safe and well founded use of airguns by honest, safe, and law abiding members of the public, the proposed measures would also have considerable negative impact for farms, sports grounds of all types, private and council property in the control of vermin, and also have negative impacts and reduced chance for success for our Olympic teams.

Further, it would severely impact the economy by not only costing the taxpayer millions or even billions of pounds, but also impact both large and small businesses that manufacture and supply airguns. The UK is still the home to such world respected brands as Air Arms, Daystate, Theoben, BSA, Webley and other manufacturers.

I hope that this document has given the reader some clear points regarding this issue. The need and will to do something by those in charge is understood, but I hope the arguments put forward here will

14

There Must Be A Better Way...,

27/08/2007 09:44:23

If we penalise the shooting community instead, all we do is let the antisocial lawbreakers win, and loose yet more civil liberties that such heroes as my grandfather fought to retain during World War 2, and others are doing in battles and wars that are going on to this day. We must not let this happen. Lets work together to build stronger communities with better education for all, and turn our backs on ineffective and costly legislation.

15

11+failed,

the pans 27/08/2007 09:48:53

My grandfather has carried a knife in his pocket for 60 years(still does). I believe he has an airgun in his loft, we need more legislation to get irresponsible people like him with total dis-regard for the law securely locked up, after all, at his age he could easily cut himself!

16

Captain Fantastic,

Anywhere but here 27/08/2007 10:06:02

I was amused at the weekend (well, apoplectic really) when the 'meja' trotted out the late Andrew Morton's parents and their campaign to have airguns banned. No mention that the Morton's are convicted drug dealers and admitted to being stoned out their brains half the time. Perhaps if they had been half-decent parents their little boy wouldn't have met an untimely end at the hands of another crack-head (on the other hand, with parents like that, he would likely have grown up to be more jail-bait). The hypocrisy and lies of the media and politicians knows no bounds. A pox on them all.

17

gregg,

edinburgh 27/08/2007 10:53:45

TMBABW - well written article - i hope your sending it to Salmond, MacAskill, Smith et al.

However I have a feeling that the anti gun MSP's have already made their mind up, so it's up to Westminster to hold on to gun legislation or we're fecked!

18

sam the god,

27/08/2007 11:00:21

#16 captain fantastic

as you so rightly stated the morton’s are convicted drug dealers they should remember that drugs kill more people in the uk every year than airguns will they campaign as vigorously for extra powers to get rid of the scourge of drugs and life imprisonment for all drug dealers?

19

Allan(handofgod137),

27/08/2007 11:11:20

Why not have a law to ban stupid people from entering politics, this would free up many of the MSP's to resume their McJobs.

20

EG,

27/08/2007 12:03:08

It's not the guns that are dangerous, it's the operators. Put a moron in a car and it's a lethal weapon as well.

21

Angus McIonnach,

Embra 27/08/2007 12:17:08

This makes sense. We have much less of a gun problem here in Scotland, so we could institute more liberal gun control laws.

Right?

22

connaughtboy,

27/08/2007 13:03:37

This has to be the way forward. The argument that this will drive them underground is daft. What you are really saying is that it is ok for everyone to have airguns. There is absolutely no logic in that argument.

23

Captain Fantastic,

Anywhere but here 27/08/2007 13:44:58

#23 What's being said is that we have to look beyond simplistic bans which give the appearance of being tough while achieving little in the practical sense - that is not the same as not having control. However, any law requires the co-operation of the public. If some sectors are not prepared to do that, then they must be punished and not the overwhelming majority of law-abiding citizens, who are the only people affected by this kind of political grandstanding.

24

Miss H,

27/08/2007 14:52:54

16

You really are a sick and twisted person.

Andrew Morton was simply walking down the street when he was shot dead.

I had thought of reporting your comments but on second thoughts I will leave them up so everyone can see what a vile individual you are.

25

Captain Fantastic,

Anywhere but here 27/08/2007 15:13:25

#16 Sorry you are offended. Doesn't change the facts though, so I'm afraid I don't agree with you. I work some of the time in the social housing sector, so my views are informed by actual experience. I have seen it all - and it's not pretty. The little boy was a victim of the social circumstances in which he was being brought up. There's no denying it. Spare me your sanctimony.

26

Captain Fantastic,

Anywhere but here 27/08/2007 15:14:20

Oops. I meant #25 of course.

27

'Hezza,

27/08/2007 15:47:31

This is one that I have to question the point of. Who cares? The bad people will have guns.

28

Conan,

Here 27/08/2007 15:55:41

No, do go ahead and ban and confiscate ALL guns from EVERYONE. Time to put this nonsense to the ultimnate test. The result? The criminal scum WILL STILL HAVE ALL THE GUNS THEY WANT. This has nothing to do with the legal ownership by law-abiding citizens of guns, rather, it has everything to do with lilly-livered self-hating control freak liberals who cannot accpt the FACT that there is such a thing in the word as GOOD and EVIL and they are willing to sacrifice the good for the appeasment of the evil. Fight the real enemy - anyone who is not a conservative on social and economic matters.

29

Allan(handofgod137),

27/08/2007 16:31:54

#25 Afraid you've got your facts wrong, he was being carried down the street by his 13 year old brother, who had been sent out by their junkie drug dealing parents to buy chips for the family lunch. What is really needed is a ban on unsuitable parents, a big step towards this would be to tell everyone on benifits that adding to the burden on society is no longer an option, and before anyone starts about human rights, what about my right not to be made financially responsible for other peoples children.

30

Captain Fantastic,

Anywhere but here 27/08/2007 16:40:31

#30. Absolutely right.

31

Flabbergasted,

Ayr 27/08/2007 18:57:54

Clearly this bunch Holyrood numpties have learned nothing from the pointless exercise following Dunblane. Now the only people to have the guns supposedly banned then are criminals and the morons who think that a gun makes them big men. A ban on airguns would be equally pointless because there are thousands of them out there and there is no record of them. The chances of those guns or even a significant amount of them being handed over is slight. At best a ban on selling to under 21 year olds and then only to those who can positively prove their identity is the most that could reasonably be expected other wise the police would be tied up for years trying to monitor the situation. Clearly this idea is another one of those SNP or even MSP scams to make it look like these second rate politicians are doing something for the vast amounts of tax money they are costing us all.

32

Conan,

Here 27/08/2007 20:43:36

#11-#13 - a remarkably well presented case - bravo. Your reasoning is beyond repreaoch and your logic is likewise.

Therefore, be it resolved that posts #11-#13 have no place in these pages and shal therefore be immediately removed lest they offend the sensibilities of the anti-gun idiots who routinely post herein.

And, be it furthermore resolved that the ideas contained in posts #11-#13 making more sewnse than can ever be legal in modern Scotland will forthwith be stricken and castit doune for all time and nane sicht notions ever be included in the laws and regulations of our brave new world, Scotland.

Thus condemned, the poster 'There Must Be A Better Way....' is hereby and formally admonished to keep sicht brilliant and wonderful ideas to him or her self left he or she be classified as a 'free thinker' and one entirely unable to toe the Party Line - an offense for which there can be no mercy shown.

33

cinstone,

U.K. 28/08/2007 07:29:56

Post 23;- "This has to be the way forward. The argument that this will drive them underground is daft. What you are really saying is that it is ok for everyone to have airguns. There is absolutely no logic in that argument."

Think about it. Firstly, we have several items in these isles that are licenced. T.Vs & cars & their drivers are just three of them. Let's start with the simple T.V.

T.V.s are supposed to be licenced. Indeed the vast majority of T.V.s are, but there are a minority of owners/users of T.Vs that don't have a licence. Just because you are supposed to licence a T.V, doesn't mean that a person will actually licence it. So in other words, a licencing system does not stop people breaking the law by not licensing them.

Cars & drivers. Cars & their drivers are licenced. Cars via a log book & road fund duty, drivers by a driving licence. The system, although now slightly different due to computerisation, has been around since the down of the motorcar. Has this ever stopped anyone driving a car which is (a) unregistered/has illegal log book, (b) driving without road tax, (c) driving without M.O.T or insurance, (d) driving whilst the driver is banned or has not passed a driving test? The answer is yet again no.

Banning air guns & guns will not stop the criminals & the like. Just as banning a driver from driving for say drink driving doesn't neccessarily stop him or her from driving, otherwise we would not see reports of "Mr or Mrs J.Bloggs arested for driving whilst banned" would we.


The problem is this. There have been incidents, not just in Scotland, involving the miss use of air guns & guns in general. How many of these have involved the lawful use of guns by lawful & responsible users?

The tragic incident in Liverpool was not caused by someone using a lawfully held gun, used by a lawful & law abiding user. So why punish the law abiding users, when e


 

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