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Labour divisions follow death of devolution's first helmsman

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Published Date: 05 May 2009
JUST after midday on a bright cold day in October 2000, Donald Dewar tripped on the pavement outside his official Edinburgh residence and fell to the ground. He quickly picked himself up and got into his ministerial car, assuring his aides that he had simply grazed his wrist as he landed on the stone steps.
The first minister insisted he was fine and went straight to a working lunch in St Andrew's House, the Scottish Executive building at the other end of Princes Street. Seven hours later, Dewar was in the intensive care unit of Edinburgh's Western Gen
eral Hospital and within 24 hours of his fall, he was dead.

Scotland's first first minister had been in office for just 17 months. Even though he was 63 and had been expected to stand down in favour of someone younger before the next election, his death represented a major blow for both his party and the parliament.

Dewar's health had been an issue before. In April that year, doctors at Glasgow's Stobhill Hospital had detected a "minor irregularity" in the first minister's heart during a routine check.

Later tests uncovered a leaking aortic valve in Dewar's heart and the first minister was admitted for surgery in early May 2000 at Glasgow Royal Infirmary. The surgery was a success although Dewar was put on warfarin, a drug which thins the blood but makes blood vessel bursts more likely.

It was a blood vessel burst following that pavement fall five months later that put Dewar into the coma from which he never recovered.

Dewar's heart operation and his subsequent three-month convalescence had given his lieutenants in the Scottish Labour party the chance to jockey for position behind his back.

Liberal Democrat deputy first minister Jim Wallace stepped in for Dewar in an official capacity, chairing Cabinet and answering for the Executive in First Minister's Questions but enterprise minister Henry McLeish – the senior Labour minister and a Scottish Office minister before devolution – wielded the power as far as the Scottish Labour Party was concerned.

But Dewar's incapacity, despite his clear instructions that McLeish was to take over his Labour Party role while he was away, did not provide the calm sort of leadership that he had hoped for. The period of the first minister's absence, over the summer of 2000, was marked by increasingly rancorous manoeuvring by Labour Cabinet ministers.

It culminated when finance minister Jack McConnell published what he thought would be a fairly uncontroversial move to reallocate £435 million of unspent money around departments at the end of the financial year.

But it soon emerged that the underspend included £135m from the crucial and sensitive health budget, only £101m of which was going back to health, with the rest going to other budgets including forestry and historic houses.

This put health minister Susan Deacon and McConnell on a collision course, an internal battle as much about a fight for seniority while Dewar was away as it was about money.

With McConnell and Deacon grappling for power and increasing back-biting in Labour ranks at the leadership of McLeish and Wallace, Dewar came back to his desk in mid-August, earlier than expected and almost certainly to try and sort out the internal problems which were mounting in his absence.

There is no evidence that the timing of Dewar's return contributed to his death but it is clear he had little respite and was back working his traditionally demanding hours three months after his operation.

Like the demise of John Smith six years before, Dewar's death brought the Labour movement in Scotland to a shocked standstill. Dewar's press spokesman David Whitton announced the first minister's passing with his voice cracking at a press conference at 2:10pm on Wednesday, 11 October, less than two hours after his death.

Parliament was suspended, the Scottish Executive convened in shock and then adjourned while friends and parliamentary colleagues gathered in small groups in an attempt to take it in.

The following morning, Cabinet colleagues, some in tears, gathered in St Andrew's House, both to try to stop an undignified scramble for his job and to plan for the next difficult few days.

An early move emerged for the coronation of McLeish but that was stamped out by McConnell's aides who insisted there would have to be a contest.

The leadership contest was put on hold for the next few days while the Labour Party, the parliament and the country tried to come to terms with the loss of its first first minister.

On 18 October, Dewar's funeral took place at a packed Glasgow Cathedral. It was, in many ways, a defiantly Old Labour affair. A single red rose was placed on the coffin and although both Tony Blair and Gordon Brown addressed the congregation, neither carried the power or the emotional effect of the Internationale, the socialist anthem, sung quietly and unaccompanied by the congregation as the coffin was carried down the aisle and away.

The affection with which Dewar was held, particularly in Glasgow, was reflected by the hundreds outside the cathedral, with more lining the route of the hearse to and from the church.

The wake was held in the Kelvingrove Art Galleries in Glasgow. Everybody of note from the Labour Party, north and south of the Border, gathered in the cavernous Victorian atrium to drink tea and talk about Dewar.

But, with the Scottish Labour Party leaderless for more than a week, it was inevitable that the gathering would be used for political purposes too.

By that time it had become clear that McConnell would be McLeish's only real challenger.

McConnell worked the room as subtly as he could, in the circumstances, as did McLeish.

The prime minister did not stay for long but the short time he was there was hugely significant.

Word reached McLeish that the prime minister wanted to speak to him, and his wife Julie, before he left.

McLeish was ushered forward, with Julie just behind. Blair shook McLeish by the right hand, put the other hand on his shoulder and spoke a few words before disappearing.

McLeish's aides beamed. McConnell was at the other end of the room and the prime minister was gone. It was clear that, in that moment, the prime minister had anointed his choice as Scottish Labour leader and the man he favoured as Scotland's second first minister.

• From: Uncharted Territory: The Story of Scottish Devolution 1999-2009 by Hamish Macdonell, Published on 11 May by Politico's, £14.99.

SALMOND SPRINGS A SURPRISE – AND IN STEPS SWINNEY

ON 17 July, 2000, Alex Salmond surprised all but his closest SNP allies when he called a snap press conference in Aberdeen to announce he was standing down as SNP leader after ten years in the job. He said he would concentrate on Westminster, and would be quitting as an MSP at the next Scottish election.

Every SNP MSP had been sent a letter by Salmond that morning, explaining that he was standing down, and the press conference was done with the sort of theatrical timing that had become the SNP leader's hallmark.

"This will knock Gordon Brown's spending review off the front pages," was his opening line at his press conference.

Salmond dismissed suggestions that he was leaving because of the SNP's financial problems, caused by the 1999 election – despite his sacking earlier in the year of the party treasurer Ian Blackford. Instead, he argued it was time to "pass the torch" to someone else.

But it was clear that Salmond didn't enjoy being leader of the opposition at Holyrood. He wanted to be First Minister and his failure to achieve that in the first elections to the Scottish Parliament had started a process which led to his decision to stand down.

He also suffered from a severe back complaint and, as one aide put it at the time: "He is just knackered."

There was definitely a part of Salmond that loved Westminster, even though he spent his whole political life trying to extract Scotland from it, but he revelled in the sort of guerrilla war from the back-benches which he mounted during his time there and he loved the spark of intellectual debate.

Holyrood, at that time, did not carry that weight, in any sense, and Salmond really believed it was time for somebody else.

Two candidates emerged in the battle for Salmond's place. One was Alex Neil, then a firebrand left-winger from the so-called "fundamentalist" faction in the SNP – those who believed that all efforts should be concentrated on independence and that "gradualists" who wanted to work with devolution were weakening the party's approach.

The other was John Swinney, a more reserved and less charismatic politician but one who was much more in tune with the Salmond brand of SNP modernism than Neil.

On 23 September, after a short and only mildly bruising leadership battle, Swinney was elected SNP leader at the party's conference in Inverness.

However, Swinney's moderate and conciliatory attempts to modernise and reform the SNP ahead of the 2001 Westminster elections were, like everything else in Scottish politics, knocked sideways by the death of Dewar just two weeks later.





Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 04 May 2009 9:23 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Devolution
 
1

Vivas,

Edinburgh 05/05/2009 00:16:50
That. And a cool 2 million, a big chunk of it in the shares of Tory privatised industries.
2

Bevin Boyce,

05/05/2009 00:21:16
Not forgetting the ubiquitous parking cone hat!
3

Darien,

Panama 05/05/2009 00:31:33
Not fogetting the eeemmm eeemmm stammer. That and his belief that Scotland couldnae hack it alone. Whit a guy! Epitaph? Nice person, pity he did not believe in his nation (like all Scot-Brit-Nats).
4

,

05/05/2009 00:33:50
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5

Scottish and Proud,

scotland 05/05/2009 00:37:41
It is nonsense trying to make out Dewar as some political heavyweight.
He was no Winston Churchill he was the mouthpiece for London Labour.
The telling bit in the article is where Tony Blair annointed Mcleish as his chosen successor.
That sums up the Labour Party Scootland always under instructions from their overlords in London.
6

Edward,

05/05/2009 00:42:48
Hamish MacDonnell trying to build up Donald Dewar as some 'father of the nation' figure. Pathetic
As has been stated here, he was nothing but the London yes man.The guy to get the job done on behalf of London to keep the natives quiet and in check.
7

FerryPort,

05/05/2009 01:07:14
nodded off after a wee while while reading this
reminds me of what modern studies could've been
but I slept through that as well

8

Vivas,

Edinburgh 05/05/2009 01:11:19
If only the great helmsman was here now.

He'd be worth about 4 million and telling us how Labour is here to protect the working man from the greedy selfish Tories.
9

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 05/05/2009 01:14:37
11 Vivas
Yes the Labour arty tell you anything and idiots like you believe it .

That is why we have been getting cr@pped on for 50 years.

No matter what they do ,no matter how inefficient ,how dishonest the sheep like you believe it and turn up in your dorves to vote for them.
He was nothing more than a mouthpiece a puppet.
10

Vivas,

Edinburgh 05/05/2009 01:14:55
...From: Uncharted Territory: The Story of Scottish Devolution 1999-2009 by Hamish Macdonell, Published on 11 May by Politico's, £14.99.

I would advise anyone who is feeling the pinch to sit on their 15 quid. Should be available in various bargain book shops for 2 or 3 quid by ... June ?
11

Vivas,

Edinburgh 05/05/2009 01:17:19
#12 Scottish and Proud...I may be an idiot but I stopped believing what the Labour party was telling me about 2 decades ago ! No offence taken... :-)))
12

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 05/05/2009 01:25:03
14 Then I humbly tender my apology let that read the 29% or whoever that still for some reason support them
13

druidh,

edinburgh 05/05/2009 01:27:44
My abiding memory of Donald Dewar is of his performance in a TV debate. When asked by a member of the audience to rank his preference of the status quo, devolution and independence, he was happy to put devolution first, but refused to rank the other two. Pure cowardice - afraid of how he might then be judged.
14

Am Fògarrach,

05/05/2009 01:34:10
#1

Is "Wardog salus populi suprema lex esto" latin for frustrated billboard painter?
15

FerryPort,

05/05/2009 03:24:47
They make you feel
yer country's just money
you would've sunk without england
we are more than money
16

Bibamus,

05/05/2009 06:36:17
He may have made £ 2 million, but his insistance on a Holyrood site and a Spanish architect cost the country over £ 400 million. The man was a fool.
17

Angleland Isover,

05/05/2009 06:38:46
As london's yesman he done hee haw for the people of northbritain. Exactly what his position entailed.
18

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 05/05/2009 06:44:13
"It would be like Bangladesh".

Dewar's view of what Scotland would be like without the UK. Putting his statue in Buchanan Street is like putting Erich Honecker in Unter den Linden.
19

,

05/05/2009 07:03:03
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20

donald,

glasgow 05/05/2009 07:09:26
Devolution was the Unionists last stand and an attempt to delay the inevitable.
21

Teamdroid,

05/05/2009 07:22:09
Of course, Dewar will forever be "Saint Donald" in the eyes of those of a Unionist persuasion. Not because of devolution, a policy Labour had to be dragged kicking and screaming to, though. More because of his victory in the Glasgow Garscadden by-election in 1978, widely seen as the point at which the SNP's advance in the 70s was halted.

Imagine Scotland now, had that advance continued. No Thatcher and her economic slash-and-burn. No Major and sleaze. No Blair and Iraq. North Sea Oil doing for Scotland what it's done for Norway for 30 years.

Cheers, Saint Donald.
22

McNasty,

Edinburgh 05/05/2009 07:44:58
Perhaps the run away cost of the new parliament would cause a stroke, especially if you felt responsible?

As for running our own affairs, if we looked at the present leadership at Westsinister it would seem that no Scot ever again should be in charge of anything.

It can only get better.
23

Phil C,

05/05/2009 07:47:40
Scotland governing itself......I like that!
Donald Dewar.....I don't like that!
24

,

05/05/2009 07:52:46
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25

tommy M,

Scotland. 05/05/2009 08:02:32
This article....why?
26

Roy,

05/05/2009 08:03:29
The attempts to canonise Dewar as 'father of the nation' and whip his funeral into diana-esque proportions did the man no favours.

He should have stood down following his illness is May.
27

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 05/05/2009 08:07:51
29 tommy M
This article....why?
=======================================================By talking up Dewar as some kind of saintly figure they are talking up the discredited Labour Party (Noth Britain Branch)
As can be read here outwith the Labour sycophants and apologists the man was viewed by the public for what he was., A Lonodon Labour stooge and mouthpiece.
A Champagne socialist that left around £3million when he departed.
that is the kind of money you can make in the peoples party when you get on the Westminster gravy train.
Guess who pays for that lifestyle?





















28

buzzer,

Aberdeen 05/05/2009 08:10:44
Donald Dewar was not that bad for a Labour MP: at least he was educated beyond teaching and social work. He was simply trying to get on with the aspirations of the day to build up the status of the Scottish Parliament. He did say the Scottish Parliament was a process not an event giving sign to how the parliament might evolve in future years. I agree however that the statue of Donald does him no favours and should be located to Holyrood and on the plinth should read 'Here is the man who planned and costed this shambles of modern architecture'. This I feel is the worst crime from Donald. Oh by the way I am not a Labour supporter
29

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/05/2009 08:14:32
What a nasty set of comments from people who never knew Donald Dewar and besmirch the memory of a decent man merely to make cheap and pointless political jibes.

And #24, you really are living in a fantasy world. The classic CyberNat position - independence via time travel.
30

tommy M,

Scotland 05/05/2009 08:22:05
Scotsman scraping the bottom of the barrel a bit though, egh in attempts to reignite any fond feelings folk, (i.e. Labour voters) might have had for Dewar?
31

,

05/05/2009 08:29:46
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32

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 05/05/2009 08:32:24
33 Duncan
What a nasty set of comments from people who never knew Donald Dewar
=======================================================
You do not need to know the man to state the facts.
He was a London Labour Mouthpiece.
His only reason for choosing Holyrood over The royal High School was a plain and simple political decision.
These carpetbaggers ALWAYS make their decisions based on what is best for The Labour Party.
It is never what is in the best interests of the people.
He has been painted by his Labour media chums into this "father of the nation"
What an absoloute insult to Scotland.
He like every Scottish Labour placeman is a puppet ,a London appointee.
He worked for the best interests of London Labour and himself.
33

Stan Butler,

05/05/2009 08:35:47


If anyone is in any doubt what life in an independunt Scotland would be like, the posts on this thread should give you a clue.





34

smokey joe 1,

05/05/2009 08:36:00
33
Duncan in Edinburgh,.
Dewar was telling people not to buy shares in railtrack whilst he was buying them for himself.
Hardly the work of an honest man,then again he was labour.
The people of Glasgow did not want a statue of him ,helen liddle did thats why it is there.
35

,

05/05/2009 08:42:09
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36

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 05/05/2009 08:50:58
40 Rulesbut notrulers
SNP's greatest fear is that our history is properly and fully taught and understood
======================================================
My counter argument to this piece of nonsense?
For decades your Liberal Party aiding and abetting Labour did not allow Scottish History to be taught ot any children in Scottish schools .
The reason for that was simple to air brush Scotland out of the minds of children to protect the rotting core of unionism.
It was the reintroduction of Scottish history that was one of the very first policy announcements of the SNP government in 2007.
So for you with your LIE in your posting I would think you are one that should do the apologising.

If it had not been for Nigel Trantner and a few others many Scots would know nothing about our glorious history.
37

Alan B,

05/05/2009 08:58:21
I think Dewar was decent enough politicial but the problem is labour and their supporters have tried to cannonise him and use him for political means. In short labour and their supporters have used his death for political advantage. He was simply not a great politician or leader but a decent enough politician.

To some extent dying had done what it does for pop and movie stars in that it pushes their reputation far beyond that when they were alive.

His unfortunate death had meant little analysis of his tenour as a politician meaning he is sold as something he was not.
38

,

05/05/2009 09:06:06
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39

,

05/05/2009 09:20:53
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40

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 05/05/2009 09:28:47
43/44

Gene Pool, well remembered. The way in which Swinney was ditched for Salmond still grates with many nationalists, particularly Alex Neil.
41

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 05/05/2009 09:31:03
44 Gene Pool.
You have got it so right there ,you are a political genius.
That is why Alex Salmond in mid term is the most popular politician ever in Scotland.
The approval ratings however of his main opposition opponent Ian Gray sits at a healthy 7%.
With the SNP only 12% points ahead in the constituency vote and a mere 10% points ahead in the regional vote I can see why you are so sure the end is nigh for the SNP.
Unlike Labour ,the SNP must be terrified of next months European elections.

The SNP and Alex Salmond are so unpopular that if a Holyrood election was held tomorrow they would only get a miserly 58 seats in the chamber.

RULE BRITTANIA!!!
PS keep the posts going you have the nationalists on here running scared with your rapier like posts and analysis
42

,

05/05/2009 09:37:41
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43

Darien,

Panama 05/05/2009 09:40:52
#16 Druidh: "When asked by a member of the audience to rank his preference of the status quo, devolution and independence, he was happy to put devolution first, but refused to rank the other two."

As a British Nationalist Dewar's only other option would have been the status quo (i.e. total London rule instead of wee pretendy parliament in Edinburgh with a puppet string controlled FM).

Independence is a hellish prospect for any British Nationalist (just see the posts on here) because it means the end of the British Nation, and the rebirth of Scotland as a Nation. Conversely, the British Nation depends on the continued suppression of Scotland as a Nation; with devolution or the status quo, Scotland is always going to be merely a region of the British Nation.

British Nationalists like Dewar believe only in the British Nation; they do not believe in the Scottish Nation. But they can't have it both ways. You cannot be British and Scottish as some of them would claim, because within a British Nation Scotland is nothing - a non-nation, a mere region, and not recognised by any other nation (a critical aspect of nationhood). For Scotland to become a Nation it has to be independent, the same as for all other recognised nations.
44

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 05/05/2009 09:49:14
47 Gene Pool
Keep counting your chickens...
Or, in your case regurgitating poll projections, not actual votes.

In the meantime the SNP could try putting their support onto Scotland's streets in a show of strength for independence, why not
-------------------------------------------------------
you are right I was counting my chickens from the opinion poll of TNS yeaterday a bit presumtious .
It will probably get better as Brown stumbles from one crisis to another.

As to getting on the streets campaigning ,no need Brown ,Gray and all the other incompetent rogues and trough dwellers are garnering our support every day.

But you just keep posting your smears against Alex Salmond and the SNP.
We can tell from the polls and the reaction here and on the streets this tactic is working for you so wonderfully well.

RULE BRITTANIA
45

Luigiana,

45% celtic, 30% anglo-saxon, 10% scandanavian, 5% 05/05/2009 09:49:15
You know things are getting desperate for the unionists when the old genetic argument is taken off the shelf and dusted.

Yep, the inhabitants of the British Isles are genetically related - SO WHAT?

This isn't about DNA! To try and use that old chestnut betrays a complete misunderstanding of the inclusive nature of Scottish nationalism. If you live in Scotland, if you love Scotland, then you have every right to call yourself Scottish if so desired (whatever your shape , size or colour). The human genetic landscape of Scotland is in a natural, constant flux, and so is the political landscape HA HA.
46

Alan B,

05/05/2009 09:50:55
#43 Gene Pool

I do not think your comments have any bearing on reality.

Dewar was not at the top of labour heap. It was Smith, Cook and Brown who were the ones who became the top players in that party taking the senior positions.

When Dewar was given a uk role when moved from secretary of state (generally seen as a promotion he floundered) and was moved back to sos replacing the failed tenour of Robertson who was bizzarely promoted to defence secretary before being moved out of government similar to Dobson.

During the time when Dewar was not secretary of state for scotland Blair had introduced the referendum idea without telling his own constutional minister in charge and was busy undermining the powers of the scottish parliament going round saying it was a big parish council.

Dewars devolution as a "process" was a sign that he was unhappy with the weak nature of the sp as proposed by blair but he did not stand his ground. Dewars stewardship comes back to labours failing of party before country.

In power Dewars tenour as leader was a complete disaster, with exams not being marked, the mess over tution fees, rushed in before the sp and then the whole thing having to be rejigged after. Other shambles were like transport with bridge toll contracts not signed etc.

Realistically with Salmond he is one of the once in a generation type politicians like Smith and Kennedy that parties have. All 3 of them were real top class and head and shoulder about the level of a Dewar as a leader.

Your critism of salmond does not make sense as he was the leader of the snp for about a decade. It is no surprise that he decided to step aside after such a long period at the top. No all politicians want to keep power the way a brown or thatcher seems to do. Who seem to become so obsessed. At the time Salmond had forced labour into the scottish parliament as it was labour believe rightly or wrongly that it would prevent independence. There was also alot of infighting w
47

,

05/05/2009 09:52:29
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48

,

05/05/2009 09:54:00
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49

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 05/05/2009 09:54:05
The only purpose for Devolution, as far as Labour was concerned, was to "kill Nationalism stone dead". As has been posted, Dewar left Scotland with the dregs of Scottish Labour in power in Scotland, firmly sicking on Westminster's hind t i t.

After the next GE, we will be faced with something new. A Westminster run by a party with almost zero power base in Scotland.

What incentive will Westminster have to do anything for Scotland except use it as a nuclear dumping ground.

At the Euro election, the General Election, and the next Holyrood election, anything other than a vote for the SNP will be a wasted vote, and a vote that will condemn Scotland to 20-30 years of even more poverty and emigration, and by 2040 there will be more people of East Europeam origin living in Scotland than Scots.
50

Alan B,

05/05/2009 09:54:29
cont. with sillars and margo not surprising and happens in all parties when big figures want different strategies.

As such him stepping aside after so long as leader and handing over to his man, swinney who was not leader was not really surprising. Someone who like dewar was no leader and it was like thatcher handing over to major. Salmond only came back when it look like the direction that he wanted for the snp was threatened when it looked like sturgeon was going to lose the leadership contest.
51

Jacqueline Hyde ,

On the shelf 05/05/2009 09:56:37
Whatever else one may think, Dewar oversaw the referendum, the Scotland Act and the setting up of the Scottish Parliament and was the first First Minister. I suspect that those are the things he will be remembered for.

However it is a sorry fact that, nearly twelve years on, nothing has been done to enable the second question of the referendum (on tax raising powers) to be implemented - even though 63% of the poll supported it. Until such time as the convoluted UK tax machinery can be split nationally, no Scottish Government can hope to efficiently collect any income tax in Scotland . . . . so much for listening to the people!

Would it have been any different had Dewar lived? I think not. The first real step down the road to independence is to ensure that a country's government has some control of its income as well as its expenditure and I suspect that all the unionist parties are very, wery aware of this.




52

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 05/05/2009 10:00:56
You can always spot the Labour poster on these threads.

They always go for the personal attack on Sir Ek, about his weight, how he came to power, how he smiles, etc, etc.

Nothing about comparing how the SNP have performed with a hostile Westminster, as opposed to the last Labour Executive with was firmly lodged up Westminster's @rse.
53

Alan B,

05/05/2009 10:02:19
#Jacqueline

I think it may have been different had Dewar lived as I think labour would have had a much bigger push for more powers for the Scottish parliament.

I do not think the labour first minister would have been such a poodle of london. Would Dewar have stood up to Brown. Dewar may have had enough support within scottish labour to have a better balance of power.

I think also with the premature and early promotions of Wendy and Deacon he understood the lack of quality within the labour ranks and was bringing through people that could genuinly address that.
54

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 05/05/2009 10:04:37
The only conclusion that can be reached is that a Scottish Parliament without power over it's own revenues, has been designed to FAIL.
55

Curley Bill,

05/05/2009 10:17:32
Someday, when Scotland's modern history is written, will Dewar be portrayed as a figure like The Wallace or as a figure like Menteith? I suspect it will be the latter...
56

,

05/05/2009 10:19:19
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57

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 05/05/2009 10:22:20
61 alasdair
I think the comparison of a mice amongst cokroaches is more apt.
58

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 05/05/2009 10:25:59
With the SNP polling up to 7% and more ahead of Labour in Scotland, as well as being almost neck and neck for Westminster voting intentions, things look bleak for Labour.

The European elections and English and Welsh Council Elections are only weeks away and there is little likelihood of Labour turning things around.
59

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 05/05/2009 10:28:07
The usual nationalist loathing for anyone not in favour of Independence, even a dead man. As there has never been a majority for Independence does that mean they loathe the majority?
60

Jacqueline Hyde ,

On the shelf 05/05/2009 10:36:32
#58 Alan
You could be right. But, if Dewar and Co had had any pretensions to making Scotland's tax raising powers a real possibility, I suspect that the Scotland Act (which, after all, is a Westminster Act) would have set out both the mechanics and a timetable (as it did for the Scottish Parliament) for separating tax raised in Scotland from tax raised elsewhere in the UK. Instead, the situation has become even more of a guddle over the past twelve years.

61

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 05/05/2009 11:03:16
Respect for the memory of Donald Dewar and acknowledgement of his role in rebuilding the Scottish parliment has become a hideous shibboleth for labour party loyalty and unionism in Scotland.

I fail the test - gladly.

Dewar was a duffer.
62

Alan B,

05/05/2009 11:23:19
#Jacqueline

"I suspect that the Scotland Act (which, after all, is a Westminster Act) would have set out both the mechanics and a timetable (as it did for the Scottish Parliament) for separating tax raised in Scotland from tax raised elsewhere in the UK."

I think when Blair came in for Smith he reduced the scope of the Scottish Parliament. It was something he inherited and not something he really believed in or wanted.

Things like broadcasting were removed from the powers to be devolved.

Remember it was blair who sprung the referendum without the constitution convention being informed or even his own constituional convenor.

I think Dewar knew the divide within the labour party over the issue. Those against, those only for to stop the nats and those that genuinely thought it best for scotland. I think he thought the momentum of having a parliament would inevitably lead to a stronger parliament.

An example is transport. Where trains were not devolved but the powers passed over to the scottish parliament not long after devolution but done in poor way to avoid reopening the scotland act.

Labour will proably swing towards more powers again for the sp when brown has been removed. I think he has acted as the biggest obstacle towards a more progressive approach to devolving power.
63

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05/05/2009 11:34:26
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05/05/2009 11:38:31
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Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 05/05/2009 11:40:09
68 Gene Pool
Basques nationalists rejected in their Spanish heartland.
What lesson will Margo and Salmond take from that?
=======================================================
And your point caller is?

Sunshine if you are going to come into the big boy's playground you really are going to have to up your game.
Is your face not tomato red with all the slap downs your inane drivel receives on here?
66

Scottish and Proud,

05/05/2009 11:44:42


What smear did I post? Smearing is an SNP tactic.
=======================================================
It took Salmond years of undermining the SNP leadership before he could contrive a way of creeping back to Scotland with some dignity; at least to Salmond's limited understanding.
=======================================================Here's another

The SNP support will not take to the streets to demand Salmond's referendum, because that would expose the lack of support. The SNP support is like Salmond, all urine and wind
=======================================================and againLittle squeaking rats at work.
I pity Salmond when this rodent assembly finally turns on him.

Do you not remember what you post?
So if these are not smears what are they compliments?


67

Proodence ,

North Queensferry 05/05/2009 11:57:35
I told Donald not to jump the NHS queue for his heart operation,but for that, he would still be here to support me!
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aljok.23,

the world 05/05/2009 12:45:33
He gave his game away when arranging for Scotlands fishing and oil territories to be changed dramatically within the change to devolution. Of course this change presently means that England own much of Scottish Oil and their Fishing Rights if Scottish Independence became reality. I would like to know the means by which Scotland can reclaim what was stolen from them most recently.
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nova albion,

05/05/2009 12:46:02
70. Tell your paranoid leader to have his damn referendum! But he won't,because he knows it would be an unanimous f--k off salmond.
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nova albion,

05/05/2009 12:48:53
74. Your sarcasm becomes you! typical nat nut.
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Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 05/05/2009 12:53:59
74 Jackie Priestess thanks saved me the bother of slapping him down.
It so scary for us Nationalists to be only 12% points in the lead at the mid term when we are so incompetent .
We are so lucky the Labour party are waiting in the wings to save Scotland
73

Vivas,

Edinburgh 05/05/2009 12:54:03
This passage from Macdonell is best read against the background of the music to "The Godfather".
---
"Word reached McLeish that the prime minister wanted to speak to him, and his wife Julie, before he left. McLeish was ushered forward, with Julie just behind. Blair shook McLeish by the right hand, put the other hand on his shoulder and spoke a few words before disappearing. McLeish's aides beamed. McConnell was at the other end of the room and the prime minister was gone. It was clear that, in that moment, the prime minister had anointed his choice as Scottish Labour leader and the man he favoured as Scotland's second first minister."
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05/05/2009 12:57:12
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75

Eve,

Scotland 05/05/2009 13:30:14
#26 Rulesbutnotrulers: Tribal time!!

I'm sure I heard some where that Scotlands tribes became united in to one nation before Englands tribes did. Any way wither they did or not is totally irelavant, to the fact that going back to live in tribes would be impossible in these day in any European country.

Where as a country exiting a union is posible and perficalty viable.

Though I've heard that there where more than just 2 (Britons and Picts) tribes!! I personaly like to think that for a start that we also have some viking blood in us as well.
76

Eve,

Scotland 05/05/2009 13:31:56
Oh dear Lord George Folkes isnae going to be happy!!

The Scotsman has managed to block googles spellchecker, for checking the spelling in the comments box.

77

Astonished,

05/05/2009 13:34:20
Gene Pool @80 Jackie Priestess was being sarcastic -but you already knew that.

Far more worrying are the party that want us all to carry papers saying who we are;the party who voted and lied to allow the indiscrimanate bombing of hundreds of thousands of children; the party that cover up their expenses; the party of sleaze and smear; the party that are happy to allow corruption in the house of lords; the party that make pornography and the party that want to keep gurkhas out.


One of their MPs is ashamed. A lot of their voters have finally seen through them and will never be fooled again.

Finally ,as he is dead, I wont say anything about Dewar.
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05/05/2009 13:54:16
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Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 05/05/2009 13:55:13
84 Jackie Priestess LMAO
You tell em girl !!!
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fiferjohn,

05/05/2009 13:59:41
gene pool all mps amd msps are cheats, liers and 2 faced.it is a matter of how much and at the moment labour are the biggest and are now the biggest scum on earth.
westminister are a power to themselves and that needs destroyed and power given back to the people.and that is why i want independance as it will make than happen.
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05/05/2009 14:07:52
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Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 05/05/2009 14:12:14
88 Gene Pool
Should you not be studying for your O levels or something rather than being on here?
Your parents will get mad if they find out your playing at being silly on here.
Thisi s an adult forum run along now
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05/05/2009 14:30:09
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05/05/2009 14:34:19
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05/05/2009 14:40:54
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Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 05/05/2009 14:51:57
Jackie
First rule on here , never ask a Unionist a direct question they are incapable of givng a cogent straight reply.
Never ever ask them to articulate why the union is good for Scotland.
lastly never ask them their party ,only SNP supporters offer that to one and all.
Then again you csnnot blame them I would be ashamed to say I supported any of the unionist cabal
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05/05/2009 14:53:06
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Galvatron,

05/05/2009 15:27:11
#16 druidh: " My abiding memory of Donald Dewar is of his performance in a TV debate. When asked by a member of the audience to rank his preference of the status quo, devolution and independence, he was happy to put devolution first, but refused to rank the other two. Pure cowardice - afraid of how he might then be judged. "

Either that or, like the vast majority of the intelligent populace, he was loath to give the pointless and potentially hugely damaging separation policy any credence whatsover, even by ranking it last in a list of preferences.
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05/05/2009 15:36:46
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Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 05/05/2009 15:36:47
95 Galvatron Ah that old chestnut huh?
Nobody would vote for Independence so we just wont hold a vote.
If you unionists are so 100% sure I am surprised that you have never held a referendum to spike the Nationalist guns.
We will no doubt get the usual excuses.
"in an economic crisis people want to know about jobs not separation"
"You have the opportunity at every election to vote for it"
then when things pick up ,if they ever do "things are too good to be diverted away from the recovery"
bulls@it you lot are scred stiff if the Scottish people were ever asked a direct question.
Just like Labour over EU Treaty.
Tories in power say they will hold a referendum on that crucial question but not on Independence.
what a bunch of lying losers,no matter we will organise it ourselves in 2010

93

Galvatron,

05/05/2009 15:38:50
#31 Scottish and Proud: " A Champagne socialist that left around £3million when he departed.
that is the kind of money you can make in the peoples party when you get on the Westminster gravy train."

In actual fact, the money was said to have been left to him by his parents: troll on!
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05/05/2009 15:40:37
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05/05/2009 15:40:54
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Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 05/05/2009 15:45:30
No-one I'm sure would have predicted we'd be where we are now. Certainly not Lord Robertson who claimed that Devolution would kill the SNP stone dead. Certainly not Jack McConnell who believed the voting system would keep the SNP out. And certainly not those voters who have seen the Labour party abandon their values, getting them into the mess they are currently in, not just at Holyrood but at Westminster.

With the SNP up to 10% ahead of Labour and the likelihood of a David Cameron government delivered almost entirely by English votes, it's certainly going to continue to be interesting. Will Labour voters faced with a Tory government urge their party to 'pick fights' with Westminster? Will soft Labour voters turn to the SNP?
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David55,

Kirkcaldy 05/05/2009 15:45:32
#95 No, he was just being a typical politician and not answering the question. Yes and no are the two most difficult words for a politican.

I've never understood the point of view that once someone dies you can't say anything bad about them. Why? Out of respect? What if you didn't have any respect for them?

They are dead, so if they were useless while alive they are definitely no better as a dead person.
98

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 05/05/2009 15:56:00
#16 druidh: " My abiding memory of Donald Dewar is of his performance in a TV debate. When asked by a member of the audience to rank his preference of the status quo, devolution and independence, he was happy to put devolution first, but refused to rank the other two. Pure cowardice - afraid of how he might then be judged. "
=======================================================
Cowardice sums it up perfectly.
They are not allowed to mention the "I" word on the Calman commission.
Dewar was told not to use Royal High School for parliament it might have saved us £350 mil but it might have been seen as a victory for the SNP.
The same law that caught out Wendy with an illegal donation was brought in by Labour to stop Sean connery giving SNP £50k a year.
Mcrone ,report etc etc it is ongoing.
They are petrified of Scottish self determination

we are allegedly this millstone atound the poor English taxpayers neck yet Westminster instead of jeetison us off holds on for dear life.
The tories who politically have everything to gain and nothing to lose by getting rid of Scottish MPs from Westminster also hold us tightly.
Ever asked yoursel WHY?
99

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/05/2009 16:06:09
I failed to see much evidence that Dewar was held in affection, particularly in Glasgow. In my experience, people thought of him as a fairly weak-willed lawyer. The hype since his death is nothing more than hype.
100

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/05/2009 16:12:56
33 dunc

And you did know the man?
101

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/05/2009 16:20:24
43 Gene

I note that Salmond's ability has seen off two Labour leaders in Scotland and demonstrates the ease with which he would have out-performed Donald (who was after all a bit of a doddery eccentric). And the bad news for you and your fellow Unionists is that Nicola Sturgeon has developed into a formidable politician with ability far out-weighing anything the Labour benches have to offer. The future looks bright for the SNP.
102

Galvatron,

05/05/2009 16:29:02
#103 Scottish: " Dewar was told not to use Royal High School for parliament it might have saved us £350 mil but it might have been seen as a victory for the SNP."

Either that, or the site was strictly limited and provided limited room for future expansion and modification. You Nats don't let the truth get in the way of being put upon, do you!

How can I put it gently? The Nats have never represented a big enough populist threat to merit the resiting of a whole parliament.
103

Scottish and Proud,

glasgow 05/05/2009 16:34:44
107 Galvatron
How can i put this gently for you???
You are talking equine poo.
the Royal High i think you will find has more sqm than Holyrood.
As to we are not populist enough.
Well does not say much for other parties in Scotland.
We have more councillors and MSps than any party.
We are 12% ahead in Holyrood opinon polls and 10% in Regional Vote.
To quote the massive brain Wendy
Bring it on!!!
104

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 05/05/2009 16:36:01
107 Galvatron
Pray tell us your party of preference
105

David55,

Kirkcaldy 05/05/2009 16:36:59
#107 - What were they needing future expansion and modification for? Were the obesity levels of MSPs seen as a future risk?
106

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 05/05/2009 16:47:28
Jackie Priestess you still here ?
See what I mean as soon as you ask one of these sniping unionists which party they support with embarrassment thry slink off.
Either that or you get some evasive answer.
Got lots to say when they are smearing Scotland and the SNP.
Put them on the spot and suddenly they lose there typing fingers.

What a bunch!!!!
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El Franko,

05/05/2009 17:06:24
I'd go along with #104. The man was a feeble fusspot, forced into a pro-devolution stance that he neither anticipated nor was capable of managing effectively. The ludicrous parliament building is a kind of monument to his nonsense. A temporary monument, as I think it will become too expensive to maintain.
108

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 05/05/2009 17:14:35
As with every other day it seems we have swatted away the pathetic unionists with their petty gripes and lack of debating skill.
Beyond calling AS, fat eck ,nobody wants independence ,the snp are on their last legs they don't offer much do they?
Same on the doorstep hence our massive lead in the polls.

Saor Alba
109

smokey joe 1,

05/05/2009 17:56:54
47
Gene Pool.
Would actual votes in Labour terms mean wait for the postal votes to arrive?
Just wondering.
110

Munguin,

05/05/2009 18:04:50
Donald Dewar, The Great Helmsman? Sounds like something out of North Korea, oh yea for a long time Glasgow was a similar one party state just like North Korea. Thankfully not any more.
111

Westfield Bairns,

Falkirk 05/05/2009 18:33:56
Donald Dewar was a prime example of a Scot who would put Britain and personal power first before the interest of the Scottish people

There have been many Scots throughout history with this attitude, however the people are now more aware of this and vote accordingly
112

Ananurhing,

05/05/2009 18:54:47
#107 Galvatron
"Either that, or the site was strictly limited and provided limited room for future expansion and modification"

Wrong! Dewar himself said he rejected the old Royal High for fear of creating "a nationalist shibboleth".
113

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05/05/2009 19:08:20
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Scottish and Proud,

glasgow 05/05/2009 19:11:44
118 The last won by election was SNP in Dundee to take control of the city.
Labour mangaged to HOLd a seat on a dramatically reduced mjority last week
OK?
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05/05/2009 19:25:50
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Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 05/05/2009 19:30:12
Yes there was Labour Held a seat as I replied.
your question was who WON the most recent by election
Well the most recent by election WIN was SNP in Dundee
117

Ananurhing,

05/05/2009 19:55:12
Just seen a political broadcast by "The Scottish Labour Party"!

Just Broon saying nothing more than there are no "Scottish only" solutions.

When did they reform and what possesed them to let Broon join?
Broon????Scottish Labour Party?????? Scottish only solutions???????
Maybe another of Broon's self fulfilling prophetic moments like "You (complete) Tube"

A Scottish Labour Party might not be that far away. Without Broon of course. He's now a political "Typhoid Mary" contaminating everything he's associated with.
118

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 05/05/2009 20:05:10
Not much about Europe either,just like on here when these Labour people get an audience it is always about attcking SNP and Scotland .
Now you have it from the man at the top.
Keep it up Brown your attacks send us votes not cost us them
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Florence,

Edinburgh 05/05/2009 21:11:15
64 ALLPOLITICIANS... What a stupid, inane, sweeping statement.
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05/05/2009 22:40:44
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05/05/2009 22:50:46
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