It seems readily forgotten that without exception the men and children held in Guantanamo are "accused" of terrorism or "connections with terrorist organisations."

The accusers are the U.S. military, with a long history of round-em-up and figure it out later... which applies equally to the vast number of detainees in Abu-Ghraib. Torture and systematic abuse are used both places to force men (and children) to say they were places they weren't; had intentions they didn't; and knew people they don't... it's useless and the head of the CIA said so. What does this mean?

That the bullies are clearly unconcerned who they have - a hotel clerk handing a key unknowingly to a suspected Al Quaida registered guest has "ties to terrorism" and may never see his country or his parents again.

I ask you who are enthusiastic for this travesty - this forgetting of the process of law and proof - would you be so enthusiastic if your own child was similarly targeted, say on vacation in Mexico or Turkey? Would you not die a thousand deaths imagining the abuse he/she suffers while unconcerned police label your child a "terrorist" or "drug dealer" because they walked innocently through the wrong doorway at the wrong time?

Face it - when true balanced scrutiny has looked at most of these cases, the men have been almost always found completely innocent of crime, and wrongly targeted. Only a COURT can decide the innocence or blame of any of these prisoners - not the pundits, not the military, not the ultra-patriots, not the torturers.

People have complained about the film Apocalypse Now being unrealistic. There is a scene in the movie where a Vietnamese woman throws a bomb into one of the US helicopters that is destroying her village and killing children and women. Soldiers in a helicopter in the air call her a "savage" and follow her, killing her.

This is the reality now. When people are held for four years without charge, trial, or adeqate legal representation, then they kill themselves out of desparation and hopelessness, and then this is called an act of war... When an admiral in the US Navy complains that these suicides are becuase THEY have no regard for human life.... Well we are in cuckoo land. This is an Orwellian nightmare.

I will not be completely surprised if Bush declares a state of emergency in two years and claims the right to not hold elections because of this emergency, effectively making himself dictator.

the comment from Rear-Admiral Harris is not so much disgraceful but ignorant and arrogant. How can any act of suicide without taking innocent lives be called assymetric aggression. The guys in that prison have never been proven to be terrorists!!

Bravo, three fewer terrorists the West has to deal with - hopefully more of them will take this 'resource conserving' way out of Guitmo. My "Stars & Stripes" flys more proudly than ever.

You want to realize something depressing? There is a more lively debate occuring over whether or not Scotland should support England in World Cup 2006 than this news about "war on terror" prisoners in hanging themselves in Guantanemo. That one has over two hundred postings. Mine here makes number 7. Sad.

Yario, you voice a worry I've held since 1999, and that is from pre-post-9/11! It's disheartening. Millions of people want to come to the US... I wish I could afford to emigrate, as it is I dream about it and work toward the year I can do so.

I was appalled by the story of the suicides of three Guantanamo Bay detainees using bedsheets for nooses.
Even more astonishing was the comment of Rear Admiral Harris who lay the blame on the victims with considerable intensity.
I believe that if one side is imbued with exaggerated religious fervour, it is that of President Bush

I am not surprised at all about his comment and will be even less surprised if Bush uses "The War On Terror" to justify the imposition of Martial Law and disallow the 2008 election on the grounds that it might give the Terrorists an opportunity to attack us duriing the interim between the outgoing and incoming Administrations. The sad thing is that since Checks and Balances has disappeared from our Congress and most are beholden to the Right Wing faction of the Republican Party - that act would signal the end of America as we know it. All I can say is - thank God I'm Old and wont be around
to see the destruction of this great Country!

This is how the World will view us now - as destroyers of nations and cultures. Many Americans are willing to allow this to go on indefinitely. They do not seem to grasp that being very powerful does not allow us to reorder the world so that it is allegedly safe for the US at the expense of people who are not US citizens/residents, at least not without consequence. The pursuit of this war was embarrassing at its begining; now it's shameful.

The Apocalypse Now comparison was apt.

My father was head of a prison camp for Germans in Virginia during WWII. He said you could never find a nicer bunch of people. When two guards shot each other, the camp was unguarded for 8 hours. The Germans knew it, but no one was missing the next day. My father was astonished by these people.

Men whom I knew from the Pacific Theater were also astonished. In spite of persistent requests from officers, they were never able to capture any Japanese soldiers. Different culture.

This Islamist culture is different too. Where would you put them in the US? Nimbys would not allow it. If they escaped they might not be recovered and they could possibly wreck havoc. You're really asking us to let them go, but it was hard enough to capture them in the first place. We have a tiger by the tail. We can't just kill them, but we can't let them go. The only alternative is rendition, and you're opposed to that too.

Strangely Katherine I don't find that particularly depressing. They (and I have to own up I've just become no. 265) are making every bit as much of a contribution to the war effort as the handful of posters here. Back on topic though I have to say the suicide hangman is a more attractive option than the suicide bomber, and in that respect they have my full support.

Alan,
Hear, hear! Especially re Mr. Bush. He frightens and angers me by his supposed moral rectitude. Does one really need the educational background of a geographer, as I possess, to recognize that ideological change cannot/should not be FORCED upon one nation by another through war and bloodshed? It's such a pointlessly stupid expenditure of human and financial resources.

Willy,
Yes, there may be some dangerous individuals being held at Guantanemo, but whose fault is it that they became dangerous in the first place? The UK's and the USA's centuries-old notions of Empire, that's who/what, if you want to look at this situation with an historical perspective building up to the mess we're living in now.

Willy,
As a Normandy veteran let me say that I fought alongside US troops and they were my friends.
But please don't pontificate on US propoganda, the US came to no ones aid, they were mainly pro German and anti war with the exception of US business who were war-profiteers and Pearl Harbour caused your surge of patriotism. Forget Steven Spielberg and Tom Hanks. I was there for the 60th anniversary of D-Day and even your President had to acknowledge that it was the Royal Marines who came to the rescue of US troops at Omaha Beach, which incidentally was a real screw-up and bad planning (like our Dieppe) but you wont read that in US schoolbooks but you will if you take the time to research history. The US is the land "for" the rich and powerful and the all mighty dollar speaks. Only billionaires can run for President..see my point! The WW2 was a grab bag for a country which was out of the firing line.

Michael,
I'm not one of the "enthusiastic for this travesty." I'm one who is thoroughly and impotently enraged by the whole post-9/11 paranoid mess. My reasons are summarized in the not very good poem, below, that I wrote more than three and a half years ago. I wrote it before the US officially launched its "War on Terror" in Iraq so it's dated. Your comment about about children agitates me enough to put it "out there."

Would You Hear Me?
Katherine V. Gannett

I’m a woman, would you hear me if I roar?
If I tell you not to go to war?
If I plead not to make the sacrifice
of lives in trade for foreign oil?

All these isms are getting to me:
Realism, Feminism, and Terrorism.
All three braided to bring
about the death of my only son.

This is the Realism: My ex chose not to work.
This is the Feminism: I had to pick up his slack.
This is the Terrorism: My ex was mentally ill,
convinced he was the Archangel-

He waited for a quarter-century,
willing God to give him a sign.
It came in September, 2002,
when Bush began rattling a saber or two.

Fearing death by nuclear holocaust,
my ex ended his life with a single shot.
That by itself wasn’t enough:
our son’s life, he also snuffed!

October 2002

Now, I realize it's irrational to blame GWB directly for my personal tragedy, but suffering human nature's immature need to assign blame and lacking a note of explanation from my ex-husband for his actions and given the timing of his actions, well, it just made me feel better to blame the chimp in a suit. The anger had to go somewhere, you know?

So far, I haven't been able to find any female role-models in literature or outside it that haven't descended into madness after suffering a loss like mine. I can't even find a plotline that is similar, except for a week or so ago when I read about the man who threw his two s

Rear Admiral Harris is an idiot! And one of your correspondants Brian of Winnipeg is another.
Brian if you really want to encourage the demise of terrorists then encourage Bush,
Cheney, "Rummy" and the lady "Condi" and then my Stars and Stripes will return to being an honorable flag. Oh..and yes..grow up kid!

To Brian from Winnipeg,
Sorry but I must take the side of Ronald like the other 79% of US citizens. (Washington Post/Reuters Poll). and if i may observe the crime rate in your fair city,Ronald's daughter is more likely to be subjected to the horrors you describe in Winnipeg than by some Islamic terrorist (sic) But to pose a question Brian, hypothetical of course, should Canada be invaded and its citizens were to take up aggravated action against the invaders would these citizens be classified terrorists or patriots? Like the underground resisters' in Europe during the WW2, my answer is Patriots.

Okay, Brian...I take it all back. I'm going to begin looking for the canadian liscense plates again.
Katherine. I apologize. You are correct. The tragedy of 9/11 was all our fault, just as the suicides at Gitmo were. The 19 Saudis, out of desperation over the way we've treated them, could think of no other way out than to fly aircraft into buildings.
Fred, I don't care if you sat at Eisenhower's right hand, I put no stock in what you say. Just like most of the other posters on this forum, you look for any excuse to bash the United States.
As far as pontificating, I don't think that's what I was doing at all.
I wish Walt had built the Magic Kingdom in Toronto, or Quebec, or anyplace north of our border. Any place to keep you off Interstate 95 or 75.
By the way, Katherine; are you really from Iowa?

To Fred in Toronto:
You know a thing or two, my friend! You must find it sickening in the extreme to realize that the fascist tyranny that was driven back from our front doors at the cost of your comrades' and millions of other lives in WW2, is now silently creeping through our back doors in another, much more dangerous, hidden home-grown guise of zenophobia and racism. The reality of what is happening all around the globe is too ghastly and too grotesque for most folk to behold; particularly for those with children looking at them in their eyes. So yes, Nazi Germany is springing to mind ... and we all know what happened there in that civilized, advanced and modern country. Whether we talk about Guantánamo, Stockwell Station, Haditha, Forest Gate, Ground Zero, a thousand other diverse places or even perhaps the Pont d'Alma ... there are links everywhere being underlined by thoughts of revenge ... and a revenge which will beget yet more revenge as our world is due to spiral totally out of control. The War on Terrorism? - WHO is holy enough to declare war on Satan when it is painfully obvious the evil is coming from within? And what about the Weapons of Mass Destruction that were found in Iraq? - The Swan Vestas matches which one supposes have lit the way to democracy, American-style, from the top of tanks?
Fred, your heart must feel broken, like brave Katherine's in Cedar Falls. The only compensation is that we can at least take courage knowing that all eventually will be revealed and the mass-somnambulism we are witnessing will end quite soon with very rude awakenings. The conclusion is painfully obvious; the pus and poison must out. Realism is not to be confused with pessimism.

This so-called "asymmetrical warfare" reference smacks of an administration just a little bit off-balance, to say the least! The whole story is grotesque and America is obviously going to reap the whirlwind if they do not stop clod-hopping over all that is considered human and sacred on this planet.

The villification of Messrs. Bush&Blair should continue until the whole world wakes up to what these two manic panic-mongers are trying to do. If it isn't WMD it is avian flu ... What other nice little panic button will they push next? The lies are never-ending, obviously; but more and more eyes will open eventually to all this obscene hood-winking and these atrocious attempts at manipulation.

Brian...
You have partially restored my faith in my Northern Neighbors. After reading all the negative comments from Canadians, Brits, and the rest of the world, I was ready to throw stones at every Canadian liscense plate I could find.
People don't realize that there are some dangerous people locked up at Guantanamo.
The United States is more and more being cast in an unfavorable light by the news media, and by idiotic people such as you see on this forum.
We liberated France in spite of their kicking and screaming in two world wars, we helped keep Great Britain's head above water thru the lend-lease program in WW II, and have helped EVERY country that we have defeated in war financially. Look at Japan and Germany for instance.
We got no help from France and Germany with Saddam Hussein, mainly because they were up to their ears in the oil for food scandals, along with Kofi Annan's son, and maybe even him, I don't know.
And now we're villified for trying to protect ourselves from foreigh terrorists. I wish there were some way we could become isolationists and let the rest of the world deal with Iran, North Korea, and every other penny-ante dictator and terrorist nation.

Thanks, Brian

Sorry Ronnie, calling the good Admiral and me idiots doesn't change the fact that we're fighting a war and it has to be conducted as such. Wonder what your comments would be had your daughter been raped and had her throat slit by those Islamic cowards. Me an idiot Ronnie? - then what are you beyond being a terrorist sympathizer?

"Real nut cases" ... "absolute nutters" ... This is what a man in Canada hurls at the people on this forum when they do not agree with him. No, I do not call this man by any insulting name at all for not agreeing with us. Why should I? ... After all, we are all of us conditioned and programmed to react according to what has been downloaded into our brains from OUTSIDE. We just have to try to accept that some programmes are different to ours, just as I accept this Canadian man's programming and have no interest in insulting him whatsoever for it, whether it be better or worse than mine is a question of pure conjecture.

Just a small postscript:
If you call a man a donkey a thousand million times it does not mean he will turn into one! ... Contrary to what many folk seem to think! ... Of course they CAN live in hopes with all the liberty in the world if it makes them feel better; but to me they would appear very far-etched hopes and rather a waste of time. One's personal projection is one thing; reality another.

To Brian in Winnipeg, we simply must do something about the drinking water in you domain. 87% of Canadians polled opposed the war in Iraq and 84% have let it be known that we should be out of Afghanistan. The vote in Parliement with a ruling pro-war, pro-American Government to extend the length of service for our troops barely passed and was simply propped up by the death of a Canadian Servicewomen unfortunately clouding the issue.But I,m serious about checking out the water!

Willy, please don't give up hope. We are your friends and allies. Most Canucks are on your side and strongly support our troops working to solve this terrorism problem. This thread has attracted some real nut cases, absolute nutters, yeah, that's you George, Alan, Katherine, Michael, Ronnie, et al.

This war on terrorism has only just begun and the ambivalence of Western resolve (as clearly shown by these nutter's opinions) will assure that it is, unfortunately, going to last a long, long time. Best of luck Willy.

As an after thought I should quote Bernard Shaw?? who said,"Newspapers are written for people who don't read".

Yes; far-fetched, far-etched and far-out!

Thanks to you all for your kind words. I know when I'm outnumbered and when it's time to excuse myself.
Because I have a differing opinion than most on this forum, I am a pontificator, a non-reader, naive, and generally uninformed. Oh to have the wisdom all of you seem to be so generously blessed to possess.

Job, the Old Testament character, had three friends; Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar. Each of them had the ultimate cause for Job's sorrows. They argued on the basis of "from my own observations", "the way it's always been", and "my argument is more logical than yours." Any argument that Job put forth was immediately met with unbending criticism.

In regard to America's problems, Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar exist abundantly on this forum under different names. Using the basis given above for their arguments, choose the name you like. Unlike Job, I have learned to never argue with anyone who refuses to accept your opinions as being as valid as theirs.

So, rather than voice my opinion and have you analyze, critique, and dismiss anything I say as being simply macho b...sh.. (Richard's phrase, not mine), I'll keep my opinions to myself.

Thanks for an enlightening experience.

To Willy in the USA:
You say: "The United States is more and more being cast in an unfavourable light by the news media and by idiotic people such as you see on this forum."
After the grotesque Haditha massacre was hauled to the light, we were blithely told by American military that 99.9% of all other American soldiers were performing perfectly well in Iraq. Would you say that was some kind of comfort for the bereaved in question who saw their children's brains splattered all over the ceilings? Have YOU got children?
That 00.1% of the American soldiers in Iraq is piling hatred on your nation, quite simply because the proof is, that after all the niceties of the all-is-fair-in-love-and-war platitude, there are very EVIL people at every strata of American society dressed in many guises, just as there are in every other one. The gigantic mistake the USA is making is clearly in its refusal to see that older nations are NOT so naive; they KNEW all about hidden agendas and the hyocritical subtelties of war long before America was even created. Neither being global policemen nor global priests befit what was once the AMAZING, rightfully proud country of yours. Britain has gone through all that too and has a very broken crown right now. It IS a sad story, Willy! ... But it is the way of all empires.

First we were dished up with "rendition flights" now we have been treated to "asymmetric warfare" ... Just where is all this gobbledygook claptrap going to next? How can it be possible to take the inventors of such ridiculous convoluted English seriously? ... and even less so those inane parrots who repeat such ludicrous rubbish! Do these clever copywriters sit for hours on end looking for inspiration at bird droppings and bacon rinds perhaps?

Fred it's good to give Willy a history lesson. I landed on D-Day plus one and by then we knew that it was a screw-up.
You are right about the English Marines being there but there was also a Polish Regiment helping us out as I recall.
Don't be too hard on Willy though, blame it on American education and macho b---sh-- and of course denial that we can be so naive.I have a son-in-law just like Willy,
a good guy who doesn't take the time to read.

Willy,

Since I detect a note of sarcasm in your apology to me, would you care to define the meaning of "from" in the question you posed and why you'd like to know whether or not I am really from Iowa? What reason would I have for dissembling? I notice, however, you're not overly specific about where you are "from."

May I suggest a very good book for you to read?
It's called _A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East_ by David Fromkin. It's an easy to read, well-documented history book that lays out how we (the US and UK govt's, that is) have become enbroiled in the current mess. The book starts in late spring 1912 and ends in 1924 and includes notes at the back of the book that list the documents cited within the text.

The more objective information a person can glean about anything, then the better off they are, in theory at least. Consider the suggested reading as a truce offering. We're each entitled to our own opinions. Is there an unwritten law that says those opinions are required to coincide? The thing about a democracy it seems to me people forget is that it only works when ALL its citizenry is fully informed and engaged in the process. Sadly, I don't see it in the USA, but I lead an isolationist's life as much as possible.

Willy you may be right about age being irrelevant in the bal-masque that is the internet, but don't forget the british press knows our email addresses. This doesn't bother me because unlike the vets here I've never been in danger of dying for someone else's beliefs let alone my alone. Thus my embitterment. 52 years old and until now nobody has cared enough about me to want me dead. My father, a farmer, would have celebrated his 100th birthday this year. He used to put tons of nitrates on his crops until a cartel of western governments stopped him yet he still died a pillar of society. Mother used to potter in the garden but he only allowed her to grow vegetables, and pansies like me. I owe them and their belief systems a great deal. As far as I know neither of them ever committed an act genocide. Maybe they did it in the 3 years I was away at university?

We can all trade metaphors and ask rhetoric questions but it says nothing about our intellect, our sincerity, or even our gullibility.

Every war was and will be essentially economic, natures way of dealing with too many people. Even Hitler would agree with that - in fact he did so openly, and in that respect he and to some extent Saddam arguably occupy the moral high ground. It doesn't make either of them right, nor does it make anyone else posting here right. We and our grandparents have, for all our sophistication, been suckered by politicians and the media into taking a side and calling it Patriotism. Don't get me wrong I love Britain but I didn't marry it, and I will not allow the phrase 'to the exclusion of all others' to be used against me. There is nobody less smart than one who believes he is informed, and to quote Sting's 1985 rock song 'Russians', "there is no monopoly of commonsense on either side of the idealogical fence". The real problem arises when we let people like B+B portray the issue as a moral one in the interests of their own power-acquiring agendas: whether that lowers or raises them to the level Al'Qaeda or anyone else is a moot point, but it certainly puts them on the same level. Here in the west we can't see the horizon for the pile of financial opportunity that Al'Q wants to take from us. In many respects I'd suggest they are welcome to it - the sooner it corrupts them instead of us the better.
Q. What is the difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter?
A. It depends whose side you are on.

Willy,
It's not Fred or Richard who have clouded memories, it,s you!
Or don't you recall doing the world a favour by informing us that "you have had enough" of this comment column.
you really are a funny little man.

Thank you for your enquiry concerning my opinions; but Danny has answered for me perfectly.
Having children and grandchildren yourself does not seem to have endowed you with too much milk of human kindness ... There were also fathers and grandfathers at Haditha; but they have gone totally mad with what the Americans did there to their little ones. It's kind of obvious they were not YOUR kids!

Job's friend, Bildad, based his argument on the premise of "that's always been the way it is."

Alan..In response to your question "do I have any children?", yes, I do. I have grandchildren. To answer any other questions you may have regarding my personal information, I served in the United States Marine Corps as did my brother, his son, and a cousin. My son is a Captain with a municipal fire department and is a firemedic. My daughter is an operating room technician. Both are working on degrees in nursing.

I don't know how old you are, Alan, and I really don't care. Fred and Richard apparently have some years on them if they served in WW II. I know that age, and sometimes the lack of it, colors the memories and attitudes of some of us, and I take that into consideration when I read these various posts.

The internet is a wonderful thing; We can be anything we wish to be, an intellectual, a war veteran, even a hero if we choose. We can take stands and make comments under cover of anonymnity that we wouldn't otherwise do, and even if we're the most dispicable person in the world, no one's the wiser.

I've said that I would post no more of my opinions but I would like to ask you for an opinion: Is 3 tons of ammonium nitrate a valid reason to suspect that someone is a possible terrorist rather than someone who likes to putter around in his garden? And what steps should be taken when a group tries to obtain that much of an ingredient for bomb-making?

Harry
Alan asked me a question, hence my posting. I should feel flattered that you remembered my previous post, but for some reason that feeling escapes me.
By the way, here in Alabama, we spell the word "favour" as "favor" as opposed to the British spelling. Is that just an affectation of yours or is that the way it's spelled in Virginia, as your post indicates your location.
I also stated that I would discontinue posting my opinions, not that I would stop reading the column.

All this, Harry in Virginia, to answer your question.

I suggest to those who are thinking everything is totally black and white in this APPARENTLY God-forsaken world, (Revenge is MINE, saith the Lord) that they somehow get to see "Loose Change E2" downloaded through Google ... That is, if it hasn't been ripped off the internet yet! ... If it has, get a copy from some other source. I can guarantee 100%, your flesh will creep if you DARE to watch it! ... Only THEN can you decide whether the good guys are the good guys and the bad guys are the bad guys. If you still want to live in Tellytubbyland, then I suggest you do not touch this film with even the longest barge pole you can find.

Willy,

Abiding peace to you, also. "Pride is a sin" and "Pride goeth before a fall" are sentiments I learned so long ago, I don't even remember where or when I learned them, but they are ingrained. I lick no man's boots, nor will I use mine to kick another in the arse. Since it makes my daily life a bit less stressful, as an American visiting a foreign country, to sincerely apologize for being an American ~ given the poor opinion generated by the American foreign policy under the current administration~ then I'd be crazy not to. Self-preservation is a sin, too, I suppose. Selfishly, I don't want to be branded as a stereotypically belligerent and rude American tourist since it's not a good way to go about making friends.

I died a thousand deaths when I was in the west of Ireland, touring with three other American students, all of whom were half my age. They were rude and noisy, but they weren't children so I couldn't tell them to shut up and behave. We were at the Cliffs of Moher, and one of them, well, they all disregarded the sign that said to not cross the barrier and get too close to the cliff edge, but the one shouted, "Katherine, come over here. You'll get pictures of lots of seabirds from here." An Irishman standing nearby said quite loudly to the girl, "Go a little closer to the edge and fall off, why don't you?" He turned to me, "American, isn't she?" Too right! On the tour bus, the same girl talked so loudly nobody else could hear a word of what the tour guide was telling us about the history of the potato famine in the Burren region when we were on the way to Gallway. I won't repeat what she was talking about instead as it's not fit for polite society.

Believe me, I was glad when I couldn't talk any of the other students into traveling to Orkney with me as they might have spoiled that experience as well. They thought Orkney was too remote and isolated, when they'd rather see Paris or

Alan, my friend,
Lower your blood pressure, please.

I'd noticed that I am also "sickening" to Willy, whose service as a US Marine goes a long way toward explaining his position on this debate, but I choose not to rise to the bait. :-) Instead, I'm applying an innate principle (paraphrased): take the log out of your own eye first in order that you may see clearly to help your brother remove the speck from his. It seems some of us on this forum are familiar with the Holy Bible and Scripture, so you may know which verse it is and where to find it (Matt 7:5) and the ones that surround it. The four preceding verses warn against making judgments because the measure you use will be used against you in turn, and if you don't agree with the measurement that's used against you, it's bound be upsetting (can lead to tit-for-tat escalations of verbal warfare as we've witnessed on this forum). The verse that follows the fifth one warns against casting your pearls before swine, and for the same reason: an unfavorable reaction from someone else is bound to be upsetting.

I reiterate: I am an American, born and raised; but why should it automatically follow that I need to be proud of the fact? I wasn't proud of it before the current imbroglio and I'm certainly not proud of it now. When I was in Scotland and Orkney last summer, I was treated often to curious, sharp-eyed glances and asked whether I was Canadian or American as soon as I said a word as it was obvious I was nae a Scot. I believe I was treated more tolerantly than many Americans who go abroad are because of my genuinely rueful smile and apologetic confession, "Unfortunately, I'm an American." I didn't lie about being an American and claim to be Canadian as I've heard some Americans do/have done to avoid hassle when they go overseas, nor did I make a false boast of pride regarding my nationality.

Katherine, I found your experience in Scotalnd a most interesting one - as one happy enough to be American while understanding the resentment your government attracts in effect you felt coerced into prefacing your answer to the question of nationality with 'unfortunately'. You remind me of a very good friend of mine from Illinois, a musician whose first tour of Britain was 'pulled' in 2003 becuase it was felt that not enough brits would attend his concerts. The tour could possibly have made him world-famous, and that is the world's loss. When speaking to foreign nationals I find that explaining that I am not English raises my profile in their eyes immediately.(Actually I'm not Welsh either but because I'm an expat Scot I am more welcome on our High Street than my English neighbour: people even make the distinction to our faces).

None of this has anything to do with nationality of course - it's to-do with the blinkers that people choose to wear, or in some cases inherit from their parents and choose not to think about. You often hear western hawks proclaiming that the only reason doves can express their views is because they (the hawks) fight for the privileges of choice and free speech. Not forgetting the privilege of hating who you choose in the name of democracy.

What I say next is, I admit, an assumption: You are Christian (which I'm not), and one who appears to act in faith, and in good faith at that. I am pleased to see that you are not of the 'absolute' variety that cannot exercise the judgement to slightly underrepresent your situation in the interests of the greater good, ie the 'little white lie' of the 'unfortunately' that earns goodwill not just for you but also for everyone in the immediate radius. Why is that morally different from people you run and/or testify at 'truth commissions' and the like, for it surely is? I reckon it is because of the j-word, judgement. We elect (or do we?) people to apply formula nowadays, not judgement. This i

Alan and Willy,

It's humbling to read the word "brave" in front of my name. Bravery has nothing to do with it, kind gentlemen. It's called not having an acceptable option other than to persevere.

Emigrate to Canada? Me? No, thank you. It's too close to the USA, both geographically and lately politically. My heart's desire is to emigrate to the Orkney Islands, off the north coast of Scotland, where the North Sea and the North Atlantic meet and collide, but am too financially destitute to manage it on my own just now. Hopefully, by the time I'm fifty, provided the powers that be don't blow up the planet first, I'll get back there to stay. That germ of hope keeps me getting up out of bed each morning. Orkney is a magical place of natural silences and gales and rain in between the brief rare spells of sunshine. I love it there! It's my slice of Heaven on Earth. All last summer I was in Orkney conducting research on the islands' history and culture for my graduate thesis, a collection of five short stories called Dances of Courtship and Other Stories. I'm nearly finished earning a Master of Arts degree in English with an Emphasis in Creative Writing to compliment the Bachelor of Science degree in Liberal Arts (Geography major/Creative Writing minor) I completed in 2004, twelve years after I started it. If not for schoolwork to focus on during the interval since my son was murdered, in by his father/my ex-husband, I might truly be a "nutter" ~ as Brian termed me last night. Perhaps I am a "nutter" anyway. At least I'm benign. The only reason I'm still alive is because I believe it is a fundamental sin against God to deprive myself of the life He gifted me with, no matter what. You see, I really don't understand how martyring oneself by suicide works out as a glorification of one's belief in God and guarantees eternal life in Heaven. That notion seems backwards and wrong to me, so instead I keep on keeping on, receiving load

Now our friend over the water calls us all "sickening" on this forum if we do not agree with him! I know exactly how people sicken ME; so let him join the club! ... He just can't give up his cause can he? He was supposed to be leaving this debate, did you know? ... Well something has obviously got stuck to the blanket for him now as he attempts to rile and make us rave! (Could be that a chink of light is getting in and he cannot bear it!) As for Katherine in Cedar Falls, she gets my bets every time, brave or not ... I certainly would NOT put my bets on certain other programmed folk on here who prefer to let others think for them and refuse to see the facts as they are, without spin, frills and embroidery.

Willy,

In answer to your question as to whether any of us have lived in the USA: I've lived here all my life, except for those three and a half months in Orkney last summer. I've never been to Disney World, never been to Florida; I have been to Disneyland, but the last time was in 1977. :-)

Now our friend over the water calls us all "sickening" on this forum if we do not agree with him! I know exactly how people sicken ME; so let him join the club! ... He just can't give up his cause can he? He was supposed to be leaving this debate, did you know? ... Well something has obviously got stuck to the blanket for him now as he attempts to rile and make us rave! (Could be that a chink of light is getting in and he cannot bear it!) As for Katherine in Cedar Falls, she gets my bets every time, brave or not ... S

Alan....Why are you so concerned that the detainees at Gitmo should be considered innocent until they are proven guilty in court, but you and the rest of your kind have already found the Marines guilty of murder at Haditha before the hearings have been completed? Talk about the milk of human kindness!!!

All the things that I see you all posting would be comedic if it weren't for the fact that you actually believe it.

Fred says you have to be a billionaire to run for President in the US....he also says that America has never come to anyone's aid (post #20). I'm not as well educated as to the worth of past presidents as Fred is so I looked it up on Google. I can't find where ANY president was a billionaire.

Brave Katherine wants to emigrate; Where to, Katherine. Canada's not too far from Iowa. Mexico is another alternative, although the northbound traffic can be brutal. Ah, the disadvantages of living in America. Just out of curiosity, how many of you have lived in the land of the free and the home of the brave? How many of you have ever paid an extended visit to the "Gem of the Ocean?" Disney World and Disneyland don't count.

You people are sickening.

Alan, you can bag on me all you want. I suppose it reinforces the superiority complex you seem to have.
But please answer my question; How can you continue to call "innocent until proven guilty" in regard to the Guantanamo detainees, yet you are ready to stand the Marines against the wall, having judged them and found them guilty for the not yet proven atrocities in Haditha! And before the Naval Criminial Investigative Service has finished their inquiry!
Here in my part of the country we have a saying, "He's speaking out of both sides of his mouth." I think this describes you to a T.
You just continue to pump up your ego by your little digs at me. It doesn't bother me and it's really rather comical.

Danny L.,

Why would you leave Scotland?! Not that there is anything shabby about the landscape of Wales from what I remember. It's been 26 years (oh God!) since my only visit to Wales, but I remember it as a beautiful, lush, rural landscape, and it was a warm, partly sunny day when my grandparents and I visited Conway Castle. I was enamored of the greenery, having grown up surrounded by the "California gold" of dead grass gleaming in sunlight. That partly prompted my move to the Upper Midwest of the US: the appeal of four distinct seasons and green grass! I like it best when it's cool, overcast and rainy, hence my hankering for Orkney. ;-)

I know what you mean about people with the "blinkers" they wear. I encounter it frequently at the university I attend. We have a strong cultural exchange program with a university in St. Petersburg, Russia, so we have close to a hundred Russian students walking around here. Because of my mixed-blood, half-American (from my mom) and half-Russian (from my dad), I grew up hearing Russian spoken between my dad and his parents all the time when I was little and I got excited when I heard it later even though I didn't know what was being said. That I recognized what I was hearing as being Russian brought a smile to my face when I was staying in a hostel in Dublin, Ireland, three summers ago, but that's a different story. My dad's parents taught Russian at the Defense Language Institute, for the US Army, at the Monterey Presidio, in California, and he taught there himself after them. He only retired four years ago. However, my mom wouldn't let us kids grow up bi-lingual because her own ignorance of the Russian language would exclude her from conversations. Heaven forbid that should happen. We learned enough Russian when we were young to control our dog, who only knew Russian commands, and the polite phrases of "please" and "thank you," to use at our grandparents' supper table and th

Katherine.....I am very sorry that you feel the way you do about being an American citizen. I see in post number 26 that you say you lead an isolationist life as much as possible. Do you think that might be at least a part of your dissatisfaction?
I'm sure there are organizations in the Cedar Rapids area that could use volunteers. Have you ever done any volunteer work? Helping someone less fortunate that ourselves can take our minds off our own problems and see that there are people in much worse shape than ourselves.
As far as the political climate. Have you ever considered running for public office? Working in the election campaign for someone whose political philosophy you agree with? Change can be effected from within or without the system.
I am dumfounded that anyone would ever apologize for who they are or for where they were born. A rueful smile and a humble apology! If they had asked you to lick their boots would you have done that also? If I have to crawl begging to get some one to tolerate me, when I have to apologize for who or what I am, I would rather my Maker call me on to my eternal home, for I will have reached that point. Do you think your fellow posters will reject you if you show just a smidgen of pride?
Katherine, you are who you are. By all means, leave for Orkney if at all possible if that's where you want to be. But don't expect the burden of your memories and thoughts to automatically be lifted. And the thought of spending the rest of my life apologizing for my past in order to be accepted by others is completely beyond my comprehension.

I sincerely hope you find peace.

Danny L.,

WOW! Thank you! Some of what you've said jiggles loose memories from the Introduction to Philosophy course I took at the University of Wisconsin-River Falls, when I an undergrad student. Things like the hunter-gatherer and mob mentality activity I remember being told about, but the builder/embracer-destroyer/loather concept and the perceived potato famine in 1968/69 Ireland is new information. It makes sense, too, what you said about the builder-destroyer oppositional forces at work in society, historically and currently. It's depressing, but it makes sense as a way of explaining what is happening in the world at large today.

The rub for me is the "inherent dishonesty" of man. Often in my experiences I find myself told that I am "too honest" for my own good, and I find it disheartening that my own level of innate honesty is not generally reflected in the wider society, which is a sign of immaturity/naivity on my part, probably, because I haven't quite lost the mentality that says I'm-like-everyone-else-and-everyone-else-is-like-me. A lack of intellectual sophistication, perhaps? I live in a culture that expects and anticipates dishonesty as a natural occurrence from everyone everday. That's the Hobbsian way of looking at things, isn't it? If I'm remembering the correct philosopher and his outlook correctly. It's sad. The realization reinforces my lifelong misfit status, being at odds with my culture. However, by this time I ought to be accustomed to being a misfit, since it started with childhood within my family, carried on through elementary and high school, and straight into adulthood on a mid-western American university campus. :-)

It sounds like you live in a richly diverse neighborhood and you all get along in spite of the cultural differences that no doubt exist between you. Is it not possible in a broader context to still keep things at the individual level, to step outside the stereotyping of groups, wheth

Well, to be fair the 68/69 thing was a perception not literally of a famine in the potato sense, but connected with a housing policy dispute in which one group believed they were being deprived by the other, in similar way to how the English Landlords enigineered the potato famine. But I think the metaphor stands.
I have never read Hobbs, but if the argument is Hobbsian then he's OK by me.
DO Try not to feel like a misfit - the current 'in' term is outsider. Unlike much modern jargon, it sits much better, I think. Which reminds me of a graffiti gag from the reds-under-the-bed era. I passed by a certain wall on which someone had writtem "Be alert - Britain needs lerts." When next I passed by, someone else had added "Be aloof - we have enough lerts already"

Thanks for your concern, Katherine! ... But I hardly think I need to worry about my blood pressure concerning inane aspersions from certain quarters on this forum! As regards who is to blame and who is not to blame in Haditha; all the video footage that has been freely shown all over our European TV networks for everyone with eyes to see would clearly show that all is certainly NOT quite as it should be with our gallant yankee soldiers! Will we be told eventually it was all a tissue of lies emanating and produced Oscar-style in Hollywood? Would that it could be so!...

POST DATA:
By the way, did all you lot over in Alabama enjoy the "Loose Change E2" film downloadable from Google? (No, it hasn't been ripped off the internet yet!)
... BOY! ... I BET YOU DIDN'T! ... Tends to make your flesh creep for some reason, right?

Well Katherine the truth is I am an economic migrant: if I were English the Welsh would probably want to send me 'home' but as I am a fellow-Celt that is OK - for now. That statement of course could drive the disussion in a whole other direction. Econimic migration is tolerated within the four countries of the UK, and now that the EC has more member states Poles (predominantly Catholic) are seen to be just-about accepted but the influx of (mainly Muslim) migrants from other places in the old Soviet bloc like the former Yugoslavia is for many just a bridge too far. In fact I lived in Manchester for ten years before moving here permanently, and when occasionally my job brought me to Wales the resentment of where I'd come from that morning was enormous, until my accent was heard. Willy is right to observe that you are who you are, what he omits to say is that WHAT you are can make you unacceptable to your audience unless you make an effort shift the emphasis. As far as I can make out, that's really all you did in Orkney and again I applaud you for that. In parallel to your Irish experience, I have from time to time found myself in England on a London-Portsmouth train in the company of several locals and up to 40 loud drunken sailors with Scots accents coming off shore leave. For some reason when you wish the ground could open, it is not to swallow them but rather to swallow you. You absorb the guilt by association and THAT is why your nationality is unfortunate. You are what you are it's true, but you don't have to be what it says on your label, and I'm not sure that everyone here can make that distinction. If, as you seem to do, you understand this, the chances are you'll never need to lick another boot in your life. Having no military service record, I was fortunately able to learn that at my own pace almost without distraction. No that's unfair - you meet up with Mr Blinkered Manager in industry too, but ironically enough in later life I am constantly surprised t

Alan,
The Cedar Falls contingent has had a look at "Loose Change E2." Provided I was looking at the correct informational source, it is very enlightening. You're right. It is creepy.

Danny L.,

Thank you for enlightening me as to why you left Scotland, and for your continued good thoughts re my citizenship in the wider world (okay, in Scotland and Orkney). :-)

Economic migration is a concept I can understand: go where the work is. What eludes my comprehension is the touchiness (the xenophobia) wrapped up in where other people are from, what their nationality or religion or culture is. Why do people react out of fear, suspicion, and automatic distrust over superficial differences exhibited by "otherness?" What is it about being different that seems threatening? Is it simply human nature? Cannot people see below the surface to find the commonalities of desiring a decent home life, some food, and shelter from the elements, no matter where one is from or migrates to?

I don't get it. I mean, I can see the threat to other cultures by the push of pro-Western democracy in the Middle East and I understand the basic resistance against it (although it's distressing that there is so much violence, bloodshed, and loss of life on both sides in that resistance). I don't see a similar reverse push of pro-Islamic theocracy in the UK, but I don't live there. However, I don't see it happening in the US, either.

Even with the pro-democracy push, the US gov't position strikes me as being hypocritical. Case in point, the democratic election of Hammas leaders in Palestine, in January this year. The US and UK gov'ts don't want to acknowledge that election as valid because they consider Hammas a terrorist organization, not a legitimate political party! Maybe so, possibly so, but so what? (General George Washington and his men who fought for independence from England in 1776 were probably considered terrorists, too, at the tim

Perhaps the Alabama contingent might please take note:
"Pentagon Study Describes Abuses by Units in Iraq.
(Washington Post June 16)
United States Special Operations troops employed a set of harsh, unauthorized interrrogation techniques against detainees in Iraq during a four-month period in early 2004, long after approval for their use was rescinded; according to a Pentagon inquiry released Friday."
... Are we going to hear the old platitude chestnut "all-is fair-in-love-and-war" yet again, do you think in rustic places? Here the revelry in torture by certain malignant elements in the army has been clearly addressed by the highest authority.

Indeed it is human nature. What you have to understand is there are only two types of people in the world - those who embrace and enjoy the diversity of others, and those who loathe it. From cavemen these two groups have respectively developed into builders and destroyers. Both sets have evolved into quite complex creatures but in general as you might expect the builders have developed further in the arts and in intellectual pursuits than the destroyers, while the destroyers have shown greater skill in matters such as group security (but still alas in a caveman context) and the structuring of economic and industrial systems. Neither group is particularly imbued with honesty, which is an acquired characteristic, or as some would have it a 'lifestyle choice' At the same time both groups retain the hunter-gatherer instinct to some degree, which varies by individual rather than according to their grouping. Futhermore, crossbreeding can and does take place much to the chargin of the loathers, who following a perceived transgression will punish their own kind even more severely than they will their natural enemies the embracers. The innate dishonesty of man does not, however, allow for admission by either group that each is indeed the natural enemy of the other, in the case of the embracer-builders beacuse by their own self-definition they cannot have enemies, and in the case of the destroyers, because they can only perceive difference, not causality. Hence the particularly distressing nature of individual cases. Consider the relatively low number inter race and inter denominational liasons that meet with parental approval on both 'sides'. Even the word 'side' in itself implies emnity. Some embracers further complicte the issue by emulating this behaviour towrad their offspring 'in the interest of their long term happiness' .

The innate dishonesty of man stems from the survival instinct, which in most species amounts to 'when times are hard I if I cab get away w

Returning to the food-shortage issue, when enough of both types of person FEEL sufficiently hungry it falls the lot of their leaders elected or otherwise to blur the focus a little bit more in order to escalate individual conflicts to something approximating to a 'team effort'. I say 'feels' beacuse man the thinker has a corrupted instinct that confuses perception with reality. So, in Northern Ireland for example the famine perceived by Catholics in 1968/9 was no less of an issue than the real one of 1847. The addition of the folk-memory to the real difficulties of the time produced explosive results. The recent influx of migrant from Easten Europe has probably done more to ease interdenominational tensions in N.I. than the combined efforts of every polition since the Phoenix Park roits of 1886. A common enemy at last! It's just how most peolpe think.

I am afraid I can't agree with your assessment "I don't see a similar reverse push of pro-Islamic theocracy in the UK" It's happening OK. The main problem is the same as with Christian of any other form of fundamentalism. Theocracy, yes, but not necessarilty led by theologians. The usual hi-jacking of those members of the flock who need easy decisions has been perpetrated by the loather-destroyers with the most to gain or lose. The English the Dutch the Scots the Turks and the Bengalis in my street still all live in harmony, but the day may come when we are all told by our spitual leaders to take up arms against one another. I am hopeful that most of us won't. But if the Welsh in our street are told to take up arms against all of us, the consequences are less predictable becuse of an inherent mob mentality that goes with the comfort of being in the majority. How that would work in the US is less clear, I think largely because of the successful actions of the 17th+18th Century minority groups of destroyers who by the double whammy of importing a huge ready-made underclass of slave labourers and all-bu

You lost me, Danny, what's the "reds-under-the bed era?" Communism?

I remember saying "be alert- we need more lerts" when I was younger! Didn't know where it came from or how it started, though. Makes me think of the joke in our family that goes along with being aware. Whenever someone tells me to be aware about something, I grin and say, "I was born a Ware." Hee hee hee. Full legal name on my birth certificate: Katherine Ware Volmensky. (Gannett is the name I inherited when I married and I'm stuck with it even though I've been divorced longer than I was ever married...one day I may be able to lose it if I marry again, but that prospect doesn't seem likely at this juncture in my life).

Volmensky is a treat for a name. Very few people manage to pronounce it correctly. In high school, the Italian- and Sicilian-American kids I went to school with ~ me being the "outsider" coming in, having been moved to Monterey by my parents after living in Salinas, CA, for the first 13 years of my life ~ thought my maiden name was Polish. It's not, it's Russian, and then when they heard that, I was called "Commie," "Pinko" and "Red" at least once a day for three years. Bigotry and ignorance were just as rampant in the late 1970s as they are now, it's only the group under negative scrutiny that has changed. And some people can't understand why I don't particularly want to live in the US and don't have a great deal of pride in being an American. Not that I have a chip on my shoulder about the ethnic and political slurs I was subjected to as an adolescent (she writes with her tongue firmly planted in her cheek).

It was a long time ago, but we are shaped and sometimes stunted by our experiences. Maybe I'm less inclined to take the mickey out of other people over their nationality and cultural origins because I was "picked on" a lot when I was younger, I know what it feels like to be