Thank you Israel, for destabilising Lebanon; your latest contribution to peace in the Middle East.

#1 I'll second that motion.

Bill & Guga.

If Lebanon were stable before the Israeli invasion. Why were they allowing Hezbollah freedom to fire rockets into another soveireign nation?
Why were they allowing Iran and Syria to sponsor terrorism in there 'stable' country?
If Norway fired rockets into Scotland and killed people, would you expect your government to react?

#3
Like when Britain carpet bombed Dublin after the IRA blew up Manchester ? That kind of comparison?

Duncan,

so you can't make a distinction between Lebanon and Hezballah ?

please tell me you don't call yourself a political analyst or something like that... I might have a stroke from laughing so hard.

Duncan,

if Norway fired rockets into Scotland, I would expect our government to react, but not to try and destroy the whole infrastructure of Norway, and murder innocent civilians, including helpless children.

Duncan

If you read up on the latest Lebanon invasion, I think you will find that Israel started it.

After the atrocities that Israel has perpetrated in Lebanon through the years, I would say that Lebanon, never mind Hezbollah, has the right to fire rockets into Israel any time they see a head come over the parapet.

Whenever they think the World is looking the other way, ie Olympics, World cup, or in this case Elections, the Israelies launch a ferocious well planned attack on the neighbouring countries.
The pathetic excuses and apologies they come out with are crude and primitive. Like the little guy at school who would start a fight because his much bigger mate is standing beside him. Lebanon is on the brink of ruin because of the recent disgusting indiscriminate attacks from Israel . There is no question that the middle east would be a much better place without this nation of paranoid psychos. When,once in a blue moon, their leader advocates peace , what do they do ? why they assasinate him of course .

Was that not the idea of didvid and rule. This time it may fire back if Iran and Syria walk the same plank!!!!

Bill said
"If you read up on the latest Lebanon invasion, I think you will find that Israel started it."

Anyone actually interested in fact will acknowledge that Hezbollah attacked Isreal killing several border guards & kidnpapping one.

I'm not sure if you are denying that happened, in the style of Big Brother, or saying that Jews don't have the right to defend themselves, in the style of Adolf Hitler.

In either case I ask you to apologise.

There have been many kidnpappings and exchanges between Lebanon and Israel. There are tens of thousands of people in Israely jails, sent there without fair trials... sent to "black holes".

Hezballah sources said that it was better to have the war at that point, rather then later in the year when it could've gone far worse. So Israel might have been tricked into starting the war, keeping in mind their "trigger-happy, push-the-button, pull the lever" nature... that's probably why they lost so bad. :)

"Hezballah sources said that it was better to have the war at that point,"

Precisely. Anybody who said says Israel started it or even wanted a war is lying.

Israel has certainly arrested many terrorists for crimes such as murder. Of course it was murder of Jews which some clearly think it "unfair" to object to.

It's was not a war like the WW2. It was very long battle. They are always at war... but, as a direction, it's clear that Israel was the attacker and Hezballah the defender. So as the say in fights, "first blood" was drawn by the IDF. That's what most people perceive and that' s what mass-media agencies look for... PICTURES, gore, blood, bullets, tanks, not politics and diplomacy.

Wasn't Lebanon fairly non sectarian peacefull and had adopted many western ways before Israel destroyed it several years ago?

Neil 9

I recall that the skirmish in which two Israeli soldiers were captured did not take place in Israel.

I would say that everyone has the right to defend themselves against attack, and that is what Hezbollah was doing.

If it would get you off these comments I will say
ISRAEL is the reason behind ALL THE WORLD'S ILLS
ISRAEL has started ALL THE WARS
ISRAEL should not be allowed to defend itself
ISRAEL should pay all the reparations to every country, for everything, dating back to the beginning of time.
oh yes, ISRAEL should release ALL of its prisoners.
and of course...the best one yet...9.11 happened because of ISRAEL
NOW PROMISE TO GET OFF!!!!
your idiots

oh yes..in case anyone does not have a sense of humor ore recognize sarcasm..I WAS BEING SARCASTIC

and here I thought we were friends!!!

For you I should have added ISRAEL is illegal..knew I forgot something.hmmmm.

I have to laugh every time you say that..but if it makes you feel any better I called someone else..I should be hearing from them shorlty..may take a few days..but you will get the answer if it kills me!! I doubt if it will placate you though. You'll come up with something else.

Richard, The Scotsman is sent to me every day...every morning, I think if they wanted to limited their comments to just Scots, they would have told me.

I called them because..I'm going to prove to myself and you that no matter what ANYONE SAYS..it will not be enough.

So you enjoy lying to yourself, we knew that, anything else?

I don't think the Scotsman would be particularly keen to think thier forum should be limited to the anti-Jewish liars who say that it was not Hezbollah but Israel who did the first killing in the recent war.

Anybody who would say that would say Poland attacked Hitler. There are clearly people who will tell any lie whatsoever no matter how obvious - they are not trying to debate - they have entirely closed minds & intent on keeping it that way.

You know Dragonmire, I am not lying to myself, I will say it once more, I believe what I have been told, it is you who doesn't. Since my mind is O P E N , I will ask further, just to prove my point. You and Richard, just keep repeating the same drivel, without ever asking anyone. WHAT ARE YOU AFRAID OF?

nudnik..again...what will stop the tantrums? By now you must relaize no one falls for this junk but you!!!

Neil 28

"---anti-Jewish liars who say that it was not Hezbollah but Israel who did the first killing in the recent war."

Neil, you obviously have an accurate record of the story.

Would you mind sharing it with us, where, when, why, how; that sort of thing?

Lynne - how can you comment effectively on a subject you know nothing about? You continually talk of randomly seeing out a rabbi to ask questions posed by Richard, yet continue to try to debate him.

You should log off an dcome back when you have these answers and we shall take it from there.

Also, when you say the Scotsman arrives every morning - is that beause it is sent to you by the israeli call centre looking for web surfers to post lies and rhetoric on web boards of publications that report on its wrong doing?

Just an observation.....given all of the negativity and a decided lack of any constructive comments, perhaps you could all swap shoes and walk around in them for a bit to gain a better frame of reference for each other's ideologies..... just an observation.....

Beatrice, my size is 10 1/2 UK; can I try yours on?

AGAIN, TO ALL YOU DEAR READERS ;

YOU NEVER CAN GET IT RIGHT.

THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL ARE BLESSED BY THE ONE TRUE GOD, WHO HAS PROCLAIMED THEM AS THE CHOSEN PEOPLE--THIS MEANS THEY ARE BETTER THAN THEIR ARAB BRETHEREN AND CERTAINLY BETTER THAN ANY ONE READING THIS--THEY ARE CONVINCED THEY CAN DO NO WRONG. GOD HAS TOLD THEM THAT SINCE THEY ARE PERFECT, THEY ARE FREE FROM CRITICISM--JUST TRY DOING SO AND EVENTUALLY YOU WILL BE REFERRED TO AS SICK OR A NAZI. BUT ALSO, BECAUSE OF GOD'S PROCLAMATION, THEY ARE INTELLECTUALLY AND MORALLY SUPERIOR TO ANY ONE OF YOU.

SO,AGAIN. JUST STOP YOUR PUERILE COMMENTS ABOUT ISRAEL AND ITS PERFECT PEOPLE, AND RESIGN YOURSELF TO THE FACT THAT YOU ARE SILLY FOOLS OF A GOY/MOMSER SUB- CULTURE WHICH CAN NEVER ATTAIN THEIR POSITION OF SUPER RACE INTELLECTUALS WHO ARE THE ONLY ONES IN THIS ENTIRE UNIVERSE WHO ARE RECOGNISED BY GOD!

Bill.....if you can shove them into a size 6 US....then again, given the current world opinion of the U.S. you might not want to walk around in them for too long....

Beatrice

I'll try anything once, even if it cripples me, and I don't think the UK is held in high esteem these days either!

Beatrice you could always put Bill in a pair of open toe pumps, make it easier on his feet.....LOL

Where were the smart bombs and cluster bombs manufactured - in the USA of course. How did they get to the Israelis? By being flown in US planes via Scotland and after Scottish protests via England. What will the US/UK/Israelis do when the Arab states return the cluster bombs to US/UK/ Israeli cities using missiles now under development - why scream terrorism of course.

How Reports of the July 12th Capture of IDF Soldiers Soon Shifted From Lebanon to Israel
By TRISH SCHUH
A team of Israeli lawyers is now suing the Lebanese government for starting the war. The case, to be filed in US civil court, will sue for compensation and damages incurred by Israeli residents and businesses as a result of the war. Attorneys Yehudah Talmon, Yoram Dantziger and Nitzah Libai claim the Lebanese government violated international law because it didn't stop Hezbollah's casus belli cross-border raid against Israel.

Israel's justification for its 'self-defense' attack on Lebanon, and the placement of the original "provocation" will take on new legal significance in coming months. Who infiltrated whom, and on what territory did the initial capture of the IDF soldiers occur? Differing press accounts stating that the capture occurred in Lebanon- not Israel- are now widely known: most frequently cited are AFP, Forbes, Hindustan Times, Deutsch Press Agency, Asia Times, Bahrain News Agency and Voltairenet. Others reflect changes of direction in the recording of basic facts.

Newsweek's Michael Hirsh of MSNBC.com, on July 12, said: "As a result, things are blowing up so quickly it's difficult to know where to focus any longer. After the kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers by Hizbullah in Lebanon on Wednesday, which the hard-line group linked to a similar kidnapping by Hamas the week before, the mideast seemed to be closer to all-out war."

By July 13, the story out of MSNBC.com's Jerusalem bureau was different. In a piece titled "Crisis allows Israel to pursue strategic goals- Kidnappings give Israel excuse to neutralize Hamas, Hezbollah", Jerusalem bureau chief Steven Gutkin wrote: "Kidnappings changed everything: All that changed Wednesday, when Hezbollah guerillas crossed into Israel, seizing Goldwasser and Regev and killing eight other soldiers in the ensuing fighting."

AP also ran ch

Israeli sources went almost unnoticed. Cybercast News Service (CNSNews.com) of July 12 said: "The abduction of two Israeli soldiers by Hizbullah militants in southern Lebanon was not a terrorist attack but an act of war, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said Wednesday."
Australia's ABC News (Reuters) on July 13 quoted the IDF: "The sources say the Israeli soldiers had been seized at around 9am local time across the border from Aita al Shaab, some 15 kilometers from the Mediterranean coast. The Israeli army confirmed that two Israeli soldiers had been captured on the Lebanese frontier. Israeli ground forces crossed into Lebanon to hunt for the missing soldiers, Israeli Army Radio said."
Voice of America, Jerusalem, on July 12 said: "Speaking to reporters outside the Israeli Foreign Ministry, spokesman Mark Regev says Hezbollah is responsible for the violence. "It appears we have an escalation in the North," he said. "It is very clear that the escalation started on the Lebanese side of the border, and Israel will respond appropriately."
In his article "Casus Belli", IDF Brigadier General Moshe Yaalon wrote: "The present crisis was initiated- in Gaza by Hamas and in southern Lebanon by Hezbollah- from lands that are not under Israeli occupation." New Republic, July 31.
A quote by Hamas political bureau member Mohammad Nazzal in the July 13 edition of Haaretz said: "This is a heroic operation carried out against military targets and so it is a legitimate operation, especially as it took place in occupied Lebanese territory."
A Lebanese government official told this writer that the first information about the soldiers' capture in southern Lebanon came from the Lebanese Army Police, a source also quoted in many media accounts. "At the beginning the Lebanese Army said it was on the Lebanese side," the official told me. The verbatim Army communique' to the

ABBOUD: I'm not sure where the location of the attack took place. I understand that there was another battle, also, where during which the Israelis crossed Lebanese soil and that the casualties that fell then were inside Lebanon territory ... We do not want any escalation, and I don't think we have ever attacked Israel. I mean, Israel has always occupied our territory, and we have always defended ourselves. Our position has always been very reactive, defensive.
This writer then spoke to the chief of the Lebanese Defense Cabinet General Edmond Fadel in Beirut for clarification. He said he was not authorized to speak on Hezbollah's position.
Hezbollah's position had been cited in the Jerusalem Post of July 12 : "Hizbullah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah said the timing of the capture of two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon on Wednesday would boost the position of Palestinians in Gaza."
It was a view Hezbollah spokesman Ibrahim Mousawi had reiterated to me on July 16 by phone. He insisted that the crisis occurred on the Lebanese side of the border "in front of the village of Ayt Al Shaab" adjacent to a military post.
On August 2, I discussed the kidnapping issue again with Hezbollah's Mousawi in Beirut.
Q: We spoke earlier on July 16, 2006 about this issue and I would like to make it official. The Lebanese Army has claimed that the Israeli soldiers captured on July 12, 2006 were captured in Lebanon, not Israel as we hear in the US. Were they caught inside Israel or Lebanon?
MOUSAWI: How can you possibly say Israel? This is an occupied land, occupied Palestine.
Q: Alright. Was it in occupied Palestine or Lebanon?
MOUSAWI: It was in Lebanon, on the border.
Q: On the border- What town? Where was it near?
MOUSAWI: There is no town. It was a military post.
Q: Did Hezbollah cross over into Israel?
MOUSAWI: This has never been claimed by Hezbollah- only on the border. And don't sa

Many posters seem to show such blind predudice that hardly any fact will make them see otherwise,these are people with their own agenda, & facts dont make a lot of difference when one supports 1 side against another! Lebanon doesnt need Israel to show it how to kill their fellow citizens, they have been doing so for generations! Indeed Israel did sit in Lebanon for 20years,hoping to put an end to attacks on its border area, it wasnt to be, so it invaded! I dont know what Syria excuse was for Invading Lebanon at that time! That was then this is Now,Israel withdrew in 2005 from Lebanon.In July 2006 In the name of Lebanon,Hezbullah, crossed the International Border killed 8 Israeli soldiers inside Israel & captured another 2! The rest of the sad story with tragic loss of live followed! Hezbullah wants to control the Goverment & wants rid of the Secular groups & does not want an enquiry into the death of Harari! It is thought the Syrian Goverment plotted & carried out his Death! Divide & Conquer,& it seems the same Hezbullah has many followers in the UK & indeed all over.

"Many posters seem to show such blind prejudice that hardly any fact will make them see otherwise,these are people with their own agenda"

Yes, everyone has their own agenda! And they're all against Israel ! Imagine the coincidence! ...or the paranoia!

joke: "Jewish Telegram: START TO WORRY. DETAILS TO FOLLOW."

(jokes are based on stereotypes, Cool, you're not helping to break the stereotypes... quite the opposite)

Just because a few hundred or even a few thousand religious Jews of a particular sect disagree about the right of Israel to exist, that DOES NOT GIVE THEM TALMUDIC BACKING!
All it makes them is a small group that opposes the state of Israel, as I and many friends, who are Scottish and Jewish, oppose the idea of a independent Scottish State--where is that by the way?
Wait...there is no independent Scotland, no separate Scottish State because Jews hence Zionists, hence Israelis, oppose it; hence you join Lebanon, Palestine, Iraq, Iran, Syria and every other oppressed people as having a legitimate beef with the State of Israel.
Now if you would only elect George Galloway we would know exactly where you stand!

Israel has only a tiny part. in the long WAR between Muslim Terrorism and World Democracy.but. whatever one's political views are. it is an undisputed fundamental fact as seen on the Scotsman Board that in any 'WAR' much will be written in the spirit of criticism.accusation or exculpation.

2 Whom it may concern...I am not Jewish.So whats with quoting Jewish jokes to me! Its not true to say everyone is against Israel,why would they be! If u r, I can live with than, but my posting was accurate, the fact u dont agree with it, its not my problem.

Typo..I can live with that

Another fact that has not hit the headlines,a Palestinian Rocket, some posters called them having the effect of damp squibs hit its target yesterday, killing 1 women & blowing both legs off another man! Not news worthy enough I guess, but factual all the same!but if everyone is against Israel its hardly news eh!

wow everyone is against Israel....all I have to say is that no matter who started killing who first the damage is done and we can dispute this all night but it won't bring any of those innocent people back.

J.D. Lover #55

Yes its very fashionable to condemn Israel and portray the Palestinians and Lebanese as whiter than white innocent little victims. This in spite of huge popular support for terrorist organisations in both countries.

There is wrong on both sides and suffering on both sides. Of course its not fashionable to criticise the terrorists anymore. They have become romanticised "freedom fighters." What nonsense.

Oliver, tell me, did they say there were terrorist organizastions? like Al Queda did?

If not for the existence Hezballah movement, Lebanon would be lying in ruins under Israeli occupation. What do you call that kind of movement? ...hippies?

Dragomir #57

I dont need a group to tell me they are terrorists to know they are. I would turn your statement around on you. Hamas and hezbollah fire indiscriminate rockets into Israel. They have carried out normal bombings and suicide bombings. Is that the act of hippies?

I say again. Both sides are in the wrong and commit atrocious acts. The difference is that the media and most people condemn one side and not the other.

True, both sides are violent, even if not equally violent. It's a "warm war" which reaches "boiling temperature" on a regular basis.

But, to be able to make a judgement on the situation, you need CONTEXT. Put the storyline in context.

So how did the conflict start?

Dragomir #59

I wouldnt agree that both sides arent equally violent. At least not in intentions but of course the number of casualties are greatly higher on the non-israeli sides. That is a given fact.

As for how the conflict started. It started when Hezbollah took an israeli soldier hostage after attacking an israeli position. That is the act that spurred the israelis fateful attacks on lebanon.

aha... so you don't know the other Lebanon war and small attacks or cases of kidnapings and exchanges without violent outcome. I see... well, continue watching TV while history flies by. I hope you don't mind if I will not reply to your comments any more.

Dragomir #61

Yes I know about the long term Lebanon war and other small attacks and cases of kidnappings etc etc but you asked who started it and of course I answered in relation to the latest big scale attacks which were instigated in response to the kidnapping of an israeli soldier by Hezbollah.

I dont mind if you dont respond to me. That is your given right. I will continue to argue and debate what I believe to be the truth whether you respond or not. The only downside to you not responding is that debate itself suffers but if you wish to not respond then that is your choice. I dont mind one little bit.