John Reid is a joke. It seems everyone else in the country can see that the war in Iraq has made the UK less safe. For the Labour party to talk about terrorism and safety is beyond belief!

Scotland would not be a target for terrorists! Think about it, which terrorist organisation will bomb Sweden? Or Norway? Or New Zealand? Why does Mr Reid think Scotland would be any different? Pulling Scottish troops out of Iraq, like the SNP suggest, would make Scotland even LESS of a target. And don't say anything about going the course, the Scottish people were always against this war, and the rest of the UK and the USA would not miss the 500 Scottish soldiers still in the debacle...

Watch Labour really panic now as the SNP pull ahead.

What a blunder they have made with their hysterical attacks on the nats - mind you at least Reid can speak, Douglas Alexander comes over like a singgering school prefect, while MaConnell would be better out of his misery.

It's not (usually) lies that are the problem with the attacks of Labour politicians on independence but the myths and cliches they trot out year after year. John Reid talks of "border guards at Gretna Green" and Doug Alexander speaks of "borders and barriers". Is it just me or do we live in a European Union with open borders? Why would independence change this? Lets hope the Scottish people aren't as stupid as Labours 'big guns' think they are.

Oh for goodness sake! If anything increases the risk of terrorists in the UK, it's Blair's poodle-to-the-chimp act with Bush's spectacularly disastrous foreign policy.

Independence now - and if y'all are so keen on Trident, go ahead and replace it, but don't keep it in Scotland..

1. Colin:
Who would bomb Sweden? B&Q
Who would bomb Norway? Gasprom
Who would bomb NZ? The French Secret Service already did.

I am a proud Scot and ex-mil and come from a proud military family of many generations. You say the Scottish people were always against this war. You are utterly wrong in this sweeping statement. That is like saying all Scots want independence...they dont!
As for you last FACT, the rest of the UK WOULD most certainly miss the Scottish soldiers as would the USA and NATO, what is more there is far more than 500 Scottish soldiers still in this war, or are you also under the assumption that Scotland has her own army currently on detachment to the UK armed services?

John Reid is part of the mendacious clique which went to war over non existent WEAPONS OF MASS DISTRUCTION and has so little insight that he doesen't realise that he has a personal and political credibility rating of ZERO.

Bawheid Reid opens his mouth once again and lets his belly rumble. This ranks alongside his view that smoking is ok for the poor because that's their only pleasure. New Labour under TB and his blinkered acolytes like Reid have made Scotland a target for terrorists by their illegal invasion of Iraq.

This is just more empty headed New Labour rhetoric in their desperate attempt to prevent the wheel of history turning in Scotland's favour. They know that Scotland is the key to holding on to power at Westminster. So they'll say and do anything to keep Scotland in the Union.

It's time for independence.

Unfortunately, John Reid is not a joke. His speech to the conference in terms of construction and delivery was miles better than anyone else's and he is indeed a more brutal 'hammer of the Scots' than Brown, McConnell or Blair. I have been a committed Nationalist for nearly fifty years (yes, since I was 12) and have attended many SNP Conferences but I reckon this 'Scottish' Labour Conference in Oban, (which has been given far greater coverage than the SNP conf. ever has) may prove to be the deciding one in bringing Independence to Scotland

4. Get Trident out of Scotland this that and the other. OK, let's assume Blair wakes up tomorrow and decides to do just that, pull it all, the lot. Trident, the base, the ancilliaries, Rosyth, the airbases... Then you'd all be moaning about the loss to the economy and slagging Labour off for that. Look at the fuss over Rosyth in the past. Slagging off the govt. for betraying Scotland and sending the fleeting to...ahhhhhhhh England. Make your minds up...moan moan moan

Scaremongering nonsense. Nobody with any iota of intelligence could believe the rubbish being spouted by the Labour hierarchy.

With this Govt's lousy record on stopping illegal immigrants this is a real case of the pot calling the kettle black... Mind you, he could be right because under independence the Scottish economy will improve dramatically and so we could well be be faced with an immigration problem.... All those Scots returning home and the English and Welsh wanting to come here could cause a real problem - not !!

"Separation would mean hundreds of thousands of children and grandchildren, parents and grandparents, overnight becoming 'English' or 'Scottish', but not British, being forced to choose which passports to hold." - John Reid
If Scottish voters fall for this sentemental crap, they will deserve Labour. Does John Reid actually think Scots will fall for this? I live in England, Im a Scot by birth and I will be applying for A scottish, Passport as soon as one is available so will my Portuguese wife. Any children or grandchildren born in England are English by birth, nothing new there and having an English passport, will not prevent them from travelling to Scotland or anywhere else for that matter, the same as anyone with a British passport is not prevented from travelling anywhere they want. Having a Scottish passport will likewise be acceptable anywhere

After today's poll Labour will go into meltdown.

Every normal person will see their conference as a total disaster.

They are so far gone they don't realise how daft they sound.

Fear politics again ... We really don't need this, do we ? What we need is some decency & hoensty restored to Scottish politics - and we won't get that with Labour, the Fibdems, or the Tories .. as past experience has illustrated.

no doubt we can look forward to a sudden discovery of a nefarious terrorist plot in the next few weeks to scare the electorate .. where about 20 people will be arrested, some 'evidence' found and a few press conferences with sweaty Blair pounding the beat ... and the poor pidgeons can be let go without charge 6 months after next may's elections, ready to sue for human rights abuses.

Illeagl wars in Iraq help terrorism. But if we folow Reid'd logic for a moment what does he want? A global government in washington or a caliphate from Mecca. tehre are 200 nations on earth Scotland is about to join

Alex Salmond, 51, "an old man in a hurry"?

Like his sister Wendy, Douglas Alexander was born old, but never grew up.

If NATO deploys from Scotland, terrorists will find other targets, reason being the 465 US-owned companies (Amazon, Coca Cola, Dell, J. P. Morgan, Morgan-Stanley, NCR, Sun Microsystems), although US business has certainly not hurt Ireland, "the Celtic Tiger." Of course, as anyone from the Southwestern US will explain, borders are made to be crossed.

Scotland will succeed financially should she gain independence if she copies Ireland's economic boom during the 1990s and then starting up again in 2004:

---Low corporate tax rate
---High percentage of EU transfer payments
---Investments from high-profile companies, for example, recent investments by Google, Abbot Labs, and Bell Labs in Ireland
---Technically trained, English-speaking labor force
---Favorable time zone distance

As it is, the US (at 15 percent) is the largest export market for Scotland.

Sometimes i feel this independence issue is a little like business. If I were to go to a Venture Capital fund (VC) with a business plan saying hey I need £10m for this project. OK where's your business plan. Ah, don't need one, this is a dead cert, you can't loose on this one guys. My costs will reduce and I'll remain under budget, the new business i'll generate on the project will produce massive revenues and profits will go through the roof, i'll invest that in new markets...it's a winner. What's your competition like...Haven't really got any... although I will be just like Microsoft, look how well they do! What if things don't go to plan, what contingencies do you have worked out? What if this happens what if that happens...Oh it won't, stop being so bloody pessimistic...it's all gonna be great and anyway, if it doesn't at least 'we' can say we tried! No VC would touch a business model like that and unfortunately that is the way much of the Nationalist Independence 'rant' comes across to fence sitters or sceptics and especially unionists. Stop banging on about the history and negative bashing. Be constructive and identify and discuss and be open and REAL about the potential risks and hurdles because if you don't not only do you fail to look credible (just as in a business model) you run the risk of putting this great country in serious economic jeopardy if you succeed in gaining independence, get power and haven't got the facts and contingencies thoroughly thought through. If SNP can do this then many more will see the potential of an independent Scotland.

The 'business plan' debate has been running for almost as long as the Union itself and the arguments over Fiscal viability have been made time again and been attacked time and again. I don't believe anyone is labouring under the illusion that there aren't risks attached to Independence but they are no more or less than the risks to be endured under the status quo. Britain had to go cap in hand to the IMF and no one should forget 16% interest rates. Economies fluctuate whether you're big or small, there are no guarantees so the fear of potential or imagined disaster should not be a bar in itself to taking the next step.

Dick #10 - "Nobody with any iota of intelligence could believe the rubbish being spouted by the Labour hierarchy". True but given the sales of the Daily Record there may be some persuading to be done of those lacking an 'iota".

Having campaigned for Labour at every election, local Scottish and Westminster since 1984 I can say John Reid is not a joke, he is a nightmare. For the first time since the SNP backed Thatcher in 79 I am considering voting for that party for Westminster and the SSP for Holyrood. Two reasons, the Fascism of some Labour leaders, and the renewal of Trident. The people of the British Isles as a whole would benefit from the split the way things are at the moment.

Are terrorists interested in Sweden, Norway, or New Zealand? Probably not, for as every good real estate agent will explain, the difference is "location, location, location! All these countries lie more or less off the beaten path for major industries and flight patterns or trade routes [as Scotland was during the Middle Ages] and most likely don't need a large influx of guest workers from the Middle East (as does France and Germany).

Although Scottish weather is certainly more dreary than southern England's, compared to Sweden and Norway, her climate is moderately temperate. What's more, Scotland is situated between the European mainland and the United States and Canada. Real estate agents also tell clients to look out for moderately-priced investments on the edge of a high-priced neighborhood.

That said, from what I have read in this paper, Scotland will need to improve the percentage of young adults graduating both from technical colleges and traditional universities. As interested friends in Scotland's 21st century neighborhood will explain, sometimes, Scotland sounds like a "fixer-upper"!

"Separation would mean hundreds of thousands of children and grandchildren, parents and grandparents, overnight becoming 'English' or 'Scottish', but not British, being forced to choose which passports to hold."

I wonder which passport John Reid (and Gordon Brown and Tony Blair, for that matter) will choose.

IT'S TIME!

Am I right in thinking that John Reid is a sitting MP in a seat that would not exist in an independent England? And therefore his job as Home Secretary will be lost along with his handsome MPs salary?

In business, and indeed even in the public sector, you have to declare a "conflict of interest" before entering into the debate on a subject that personally affects your own financial interests. Most business people and public servants have integrity and therefore choose not to get involved in the matter, letting others thrash out the issues. But then, I guess that integrity is the key word here.

John Reid, when he is eventually booted out of the office that he clearly does not deserve to hold, will get a very, very generous payout that will mean he never has to worry about meeting the rent payments on his house. A payout which most of his hard working constituents would have to work for many years to earn the equivalent of.

So, as much as it is never nice to see anyone lose their job, in this case he will be well looked after by the taxpayer.

Is it just me or do French, German, Spanish, English and Scottish people already have the same passport? I thought that the Brits gave up their lovely blue passport over a decade ago? The clumsy old blue passport has given way to that sleek, sexy burgundy one.

If John Reid is telling us that one of the SNP's central policies is replace the sexy, sophisticated, burgundy passport with something “tackier”, then I for one will be standing shoulder to shoulder with the good doctor. We must fight those nasty nationalists until they agree to stick with a burgundy edition.

Keep Scotland Burgundy!!!!!!

I wasn't aware that "Bush's Brain, Mr. Rove was now advising Labor.

Didn't work for him in our November elections and, I trust, good Scots have better sense that we had two years ago.

12. anderson, aberdeenshire / Well said , mconnell and his numpy,s are after the ordinary peoples vote
not the normal people.His words.

The quicker the Scots get independence the better - for the English.

Stand on your own two feet, stop taking £10b a year from us and let us decide our own future without a block vote of Scottish politicians interfering in matters that have nothing to do with them.

As someone who holds an olive drab passport embossed with an eagle, I enjoy reading about Scotland's proposed de-evolution from the United Kingdom. I might add that this will come as a shock to many Americans who don't differentiate between the two countries.

A "federal" union (as opposed to a confederacy) has its advantages both in trade and for defense. I understand the emotions that drive the fight for Scottish independence, but I might also add a caveat--make sure to keep the economic advantages of a partnership with England and/or the European Union along with similar options for defense.

I'm bored by all this meaningless guff about independence. I want Britain back the way it was: no devolution, except across the Irish sea in Northern Ireland, and a powerful Westminster parliament in London; and I want us out of the European Union - by Christmas.

TerryinSpringburn #28.

Why do you want "us" out of the European Union?

29. Calgacus - I want Britain to be a full independent nation state again.

30. TerryinSpringburn - But Britain has never been a nation state, it's a Union. Scotland used to be a full independent nation state, as did England. That's what I want again.

And it's time.

Sir/Madam:
Right title.

Excuse me for my comments. I know I am an outsider. Some may feel I should not poke my nose here. But I am a well-wisher!

Please remember: ultimately these days politicians are almost same and there is not much to distinguish between them. Utlimately, it will not make much difference!

When the need of the hour is a larger coaltion of non-Muslims against jihadi terrorism, these divert our attention from the real problems.

Please remember: united we stand divided we fall!
Regards,

31. Calgacus - Scotland was a nation state 300 years ago. I have been a British citizen for 50 years. Devolved Scotland is a failed political entity: Labour promised home rule but delivered devolution from Brussels. Scotland cannot even protect its fishing waters, what would a supposedly independent Scotland in the European Union do when Brussels reaches for its oil fields - as it will?

We need to return power to the centre, concentrate it in London, and then make our break for freedom as a nation of almost 60 million people, of four constituent countries, one union.

Brussels needs the UK more than we need it. As a trading nation with world influence, Britain will save a fortune by cutting itself out of EU red tape and regulation.

I am uncertain as to whether an independant Scotland is necessary. Usually the break down of any partnership results from a total and utter difference in culture. As far as Scotland and England are concerned, there is not much difference at all.

But that is an entirely different topic, the story at hand is about John Ried's suggestion that independence would result in an unsafe Scotland more vulnerable to terrorism. If that is the case then Labour must accept responsibility for it. If an independant Scotland will be more dangerous then one must accept that labour have made it so. Already they have contributed to an unsafe world, their leaders have supported an unjust America and climbed into bed with a disruptive and entirely violent Israel. In doing so they have made the world a more dangerous place, but reports that an independent Scotland would result in a more dangerous climate means that Labour have lost complete control of national security. That is worrying

More rubbish from South of the Border and from a traitor to boot. A man who has already sold out his own faith and country, and who would sell his own grandmother if it would advance his personal gain. Will the Scottish people continue to swallow this scaremongering garbage?

34. Professor - a British Labour government dominated by Scots slavishly implements the European Union's "open borders" policy, and sends troops to fight wars for George Bush, then warns Scotland that it could not cope with the wholly predictable chaos on its own.

The solution is to kick out Labour, leave the European Union, and bring our troops home.

But John Reid isn't going to admit that.

Since when did "labor" stand for slavery in the third world? Since when was anything on the side of labor in support of Economic Imperialism? Since when did anyone representative of labor support economic imperial outsourcing of labor to third world contries? Both Thatcher and Blair pulled this crap of shamelessly in the name of labor while living in and lining the pockets of conservative FASCIST American presidents? I expect Amerians to be shallow ignorant and clueless but I would have expected more of a populace that has over 200 years of industrial fascism behind them? Outside of that, the biggest enemy the WEST faces today is the burgeoning populations of the third world banging at our borders. If you let them in that will be the end of western culture and most of our lives. They do not come here out of cultural interest in you. They come here to destroy your life, and take everything you have.

33. TerryinSpringburn - If you mean returning power to the centre of England, then I would agree that London is an obvious choice. But it is hardly the centre of Scotland.

Any arguments made in favour of an independent UK free of Brussels influence must, by their very nature, also apply to an independent Scotland free of London influence.

Post-independence, Scots will at least be free to decide on what level of association with Europe best suits Scotland, instead of being dragged into alliances tailored to suit England. Your point about Brussels reaching for its oil fields rather illustrates that point - London has already reached them, and its time they were out.

37. socialmedic - the enemy is not those who would come here for a better life for themselves and their families.

New Labour - the political wing of the multinationals, and an unholy alliance of money-grabbing globalists and former communists - wants to destroy Britain as a nation state.

Wow, more other Yanks on the board tonight. Socialmedic you are at once isolationist and criticising former Pres. Reagan who was a conservative to moderate Republican who liked having a Southern border. I'd call you a libertarian, but you seem also to be xenophobic. Facists have historically (at least national facists) have historically sought to exclude people from coming into the country who were not perceived to be of that particular nationality, yet you advocate the same thing while criticising them. Alex Salmond to his credit wants Scotland to flourish with seemingly as much help from a potentially originally foreign English workforce as would come to seek their fortunes in a re-independent Scotland. He constantly addresses the problem of 300 years of emigration due to the Union having a deleterious effect on society, culture and also eventually the economy in Scotland. Alex Salmond consistently rejects facism.

On another note, I'm beginning to think Salmond is right to ask when the next time will be that New Labour is going to arrive in Scotland. New Labour has lost its argument so badly that it has stooped to the practice of rude name calling. I wonder if they have read the SNP election Manifesto or even BBC for that matter and seen the SNP has continually addressed most or all of the issues New Labour has criticized them on at the New Labour Conference. If New Labour is this bad at even reading a web-site or newspaper does Scotland really want them running its affairs? The question is "The New Labour Ostritch or the Potential Celtic Tiger Mach II"?

Best of wishes for the Potential Celtic Tiger Mach II.

Aye that would be all the terrorists that think of the Scots rampaging and piliging across the globe during the crusades and middle ages. rule Scotland, Scotland rules the waves. Hold on, that wasn't Scotland was it...... Yup all the terrorists will be after us.

Well be over run with legal immigrants if we stay as the UK as well. Theres a need for slave 'labour' seemingly and manual workers.

I worked as an Architect in Dundee and had an amateur property developer in Dundee telling me he could upgrade a property for 30 thousand, professional estimate was £275,000. when I visited the property he had 15 Polish guys living in this 10 bedroom flat stripping it out for free rent and accomodation while doing the work.

Thats not my vision for my country.

38. Calgacus - I take your point.

Thatcher hastened devolution, devolution under Labour and the Lib Dems seems to be hastening independence.

However, we're ignoring the priority, which is to use Britain's critical mass to break free of the stifling orbit of the European Union while we still can.

I think the SNP used to pretend that Brussels is the friend of the smaller nations, but we've seen the way Brussels acted over fishing waters and shipbuilding orders, and the SNP has had to take a more Eurosceptic line.

The constituent countries of the UK should not let themselves be divided in the face of what is a malign threat to our combined sovereignty.

Let's use our combined strength to push the EU elephant out of the room.

The one thing John Reid's words have done is to convince me we need independence.
New Labour are beginning to sound desperate - well, their cushy numbers south of the border will be gone if Scotland achieves freedom.
The catfight between the returning Westminster politicos and the Edinburgh lot for the few places at the trough will be interesting.

42. TerryinSpringburn

I could be wrong here, as I'm not really up on EU regulations, but if Scotland and England were independent members of the EU, would their two voices on areas of common interest not be stronger than the single voice of the UK.

And in cases where Scottish and English interests differ, Scotland would be able to argue its own advantage.

Brussels was only able to act the way it did over Scottish fishing waters and shipbuilding orders because England had no interest in the arguments, and Scotland had no voice.

Thank you John Reid, the undercover SNP agent. You're helping the independence cause nicely. As for the rest of you who want to throw up dire predictions of how bad it will be for a free Scotland - go right ahead. Scotland will do very nicely without the gargantuan dragging us into every American adventure. Freedom for Scotland!

Reid has had no problems supporting Irish independence, I don't rememeber him condemning the methods used towards that end, or warnings issued regarding the dire consequences should that end be reached.
Many senior Scottish Labour figures can be found every weekend, accompanied by flags and emblems, vociferously demanding the complete severance of that country's ties to the mainland, and not very moderately either.
He and the others should come out and tell us why he thinks Scots are not to achieve this state.

45. Calgacus - I hope we will never reach the stage where two supposedly independent former members of the supposedly independent United Kingdom have to argue their respective cases before an unelected, uninterested European Commission.

But in the meantime, I agree that the New Labour quislings have to go.

#33 TerryS "I have been a British citizen for 50 years"
You have never been a citizen, we are all subjects of the crown.
Now there's a thing do we lose that status with independence? Subject to change of course!

49. Cadgers

".....we are all subjects of the crown." Speak for yourself, pal. My EU passport quite clearly states that I am a British Citizen, as I am sure Terry's does also. I haven't been a "Subject" since Big Blue Passport days.

49. Cadgers - my passport says "British Citizen".

51. Personally if given the choice, which ina free world we should be, I would prefer native of Scotland on a Tartan passport. but do I have that choice in this free world?

Sounds like panic setting in. Excellent.

PIECE OF ADVICE TO WEE JOKE--AYE THAT'S HIM WI THE PHD--WHEN YOU ARE IN A HOLE--STOP DIGGIN'

Aye were aw 5hittin oorsels scaremongerin aholes,it never got Bush anywhere,
you may think hes a smarmy creep but theres no doubt he has Scotlands best interests at heart,that can never be said about ANY of the other parties

If community service ans ASBOS are the best you can come up with then thats no reason to stick with Labour, you are far too soft on crime as it is.

Am I the only one who finds Reid's comments about being overrun by immigrants rather at odds with McConnell's desire to attract new EU nationals to this country to boost the population? Why does he think that we would be any less successful in stopping illegal immigrants than the current national Labour administration? It appears that they have so many they cannot keep count of them. Nor do they apparently have the inclination to repatriate those they apprehend. In many instances they have sought to redistribute those deemed to be legal asylum seekers to the very place they now deem would be under threat.

Is it not clear to everybody that Gordon Brown, John Reid, Des Browne, Alistair Darling, Douglas Aleaxnder et al are attacking the SNP and the concept of independence in order to keep the status quo and their jobs, hence the crude scaremongering they are currently indulging in. Also, if independence does happen, the Labour Party will be certainly be marginalized in England and possibly also in Scotland and they fear the consequences of that. It would be interesting to see if Gordon Brown and John Reid would fight for their current seats in an independent Scotland or take a soft seat somewhere in England & Wales.

I think that everybody would appreciate if our current government could take the debate over independence to a higher level instead of the threatening the Scots with the bogeymen of poverty, security and border controls. They are in the process of scoring an own goal.

It is indeed time !!!!!!!!!

The temperature of comments to this site concerns me about how little the majority of writers appear to have thought through all the implications of a break up of the Union. Without going into the important economic details, which have been mentioned so often and ignored by emotion, I have now to consider how best to protect my life time's savings. I am sure others on this page have also thought about this and I would be grateful for tips and advice where to bank and to invest?

#11 Edward
You mean unlike the sentimental crap spouted by the SNP - "William Wallace", "remember Bannockburn", "It's Scotland's Oil" (their 1970s mantra), "Flower of Scotland", remember Edward I, etc.!!!!!! One lot is as bad as the other, and will use sentimentality or whatever it takes to get in to power. Then what???

Reid is a disgrace,a contemptable man only interested in keeping himself and his "new labour" fellow travelers in power.

The morals of that party are beneath contempt.

Dont think anyone here has mentioned Bannock burn of flower of Scotland other than you JG. Just laughing at the Paradox of terrorism as a history lesson.

Its absolutely hilarious when you think of it really, Conquering crusades and global terrorism.

We ourselves have been subject to terrorism from our neighbours.

After all it's John Reid who is raising the subject of terrorism

Has'nt John Reid ever heard of dual nationality ?

As for Scottish passports there already on sale in tourist shops.

If it means the likes of the bullying John Reid staying south of the border then i'd happily man a border myself. Labour have forgotten a couple of crucial elements in their strategy of Nat-bashing that weaken their case:

1. no one likes a bully
2. they have no credibility, people simply do not believe what they say anymore
3. Douglas Alexander

I'm a Scot. I'm intensly proud of being Scottish. It is my heritage and my future. I'm also a Brit ... a Celtic Brit (that's Keltic) ... and I've had enough of being ruled either directly or as present, indirectly from London. I want to try something home grown for a change! I've voted Labour all my life, but I can't vote for the party of Blair any more. They betrayed my Socialist heritage.

I'm also a citizen of my country of birth. I am "subject" to NO man or woman, and I am totally against "royal family" nonsense. We outgrew that a long time ago ... since Culloden probably. We were shot of the Stewarts and we didn't want the Germans either. I am of that frame of mind. My passport should read Scottish ... and British secondary.

I still believe in a Union ... but not under the present format. We need to try being on our own for a few years ... then when it all fails ... renegotiate the terms of Union ... Just not as a junior partner.

Scotland always gave its blood for Britain ... it's engineers, its architects, its science, its intellect, ie, the Scottish Enlightenment. There would never have been a Britain without the Scottish dimension. But, London never treated us right regardless of that.

It's time to end it ... and see how we can go it alone, IF we can go it alone ... though I suspect our families in Canada, Australia, New Zealand and wherever a drop of Scots blood has taken root, will take more than a little pleasure and give us support in the Great Experiment.

We have to try it ... especially at the start of the new century. England has to stand aside and try NOT to control events here ... mind you they wouldn't have the Scottish Question to worry about any more. But, they must let it happen.

We ARE an intelligent people. It is our right to try to stand alone as a national and political entity. Big business need not worry ... it won't affect them because they have NO borders!

We have to

60 Some people just cannot understand that economically Scotland is one of the soundest nations possible but as yet cannot understand that the economic argument takes precedence over any sentimental argument whether it be for or against our nationhood status.
Sentimental points were the level put about by the Labour Party because they dare not debate the economics and have refused to meet Salmond repetitively. The SNP has no problem with arguing on economic grounds since it knows the strength of its argument! Its people who believe every piece of crap LONDON tells them that are the problem!They have cost Scotland 30 years and billions in oil revenues which were our birthright. They wandered around repeating stupid nonsense like the oil disnae belong tae Scotland,it belongs tae multi national oil companies! Of course OIL belongs to oil companies! The taxes however belong to governments and thats what the SNP was talking about.The reason why most scots did not understand it was they were deliberately conned by the Labour Liberal and Tory parties for their own purposes and certainly did NOT include Scotland in their plans !The reasons why the opinion polls are changing is partly Iraq and partly because some scots have finally started asking questions instead of just nodding their heads when the Unions and Labour party said so! Clearly it does not include everybody,and its not so surprising that some people will take longer to realise what has happened. IN your case its debatable whether you will ever understand it! No sign of it so far!
65 You put it in a nutshell What an appology for a politician is Douglas Alexander A silly wee boy who needs his nappy changing, but he is still one of the brighter ones in the Labour Party which gives you some idea of what the rest must be like!

As a Scottish man John Reid should be ashamed of himself. It seems he is much happier being TB's pitbull than serving his own countrymen. It is a ridiculous claim to make that we would be more open to terrorism, since distancing ourselves from the illegal warmongers would surely decrease it.

If we as a people have any sense of pride then it is long past due that we finally attempt to regain the freedom and independence that our ancestors had the decency to fight for. Even if it were the case we were worse off financially do you think Nelson Madela would have said 'oh forget about freedom i could have an extra tenner in my pocket' i think not.

Perhaps Blair taking us to war in Iraq was 'a gift to terrorists and illegal immigrants'.

Both Alexander & Reid were given the job of doing the personal attacks on Salmond.
Alexander made a fool of himself withe the "old man in a hurray" jibe.Does that mean Brown is too old to be PM ?
And Reid shows how stuck in the past he is with the border guards at Gretna....pathetic.
Labour had the opportunity to attack the SNP on policy.They failed miserably.They resorted to outdated scaremongering and personal attacks that have backfired.
Is this really the best that they could come up with ?
They look a tired and wornout party with no imagination or idea

Well the centrally based former socialist agenda is the prime motivator in the growth of SNP support, and continues to shoot itself on the foot everytime it pronounces on the subject.
Passports are a red herring as an independent Scotland
would still be a member of the E.C. and it is now E.C.
passports which are issued to nationals of member states.
Scotland would still be a member of the commonwealth
whose titular head of state is the Queen.
It is a perfectly understandable human need for all peoples who share a common ethnicity to seek self determination, just look what happened when the Iron curtain fell, how many new independent states
joined the club of democratic free peoples.
For those who say an independent Scotland should
come out of the european union this would be sheer folly. Scotland, as does a United Britain needs the E.C. more than the E.C. Needs either. Now I know there is a lot wrong with the E.C. in terms of corruption, buraucracy, over regulation, but we need to stay in to change this, We need a federal union of the member states to take on the growing economic might of china and india and the declining false might of the USA. alone we don't stand a chance against these three market forces. The act of Union
states that the parties joined it by free choice and either may leave if a majority of the citizens wished
if this proves to be so, then that is democracy and it
would be sheer destructive folly if independence were to be denied by any faction if that majority so chose.

I'd like to say John Reid is full of ... something. But I'd be wrong, if he was, he'd at least be of some practical use. Let's face it mr Reid, if it wasn't for Scottish, Welsh and Irish blood, Britain would be nothing. Coerced, abused, oppressed and terrorised, the Celtic people's have for so long been under a yoke, and now a naturalised beneficiant dictatorship. My own people have been colonised and abused for over 800 years, millions sold into slavery and starved to death, forced to flee overseas... Terrors are in the past, and we can now begin healing and reconciliation, but I still firmly believe that full national self-determination is the only decent option for the Celtic nations. Canada, even the US, look at the ties and friendships there. Let's end this charade of a "united" Kingdom and start behaving with some decency. To paraphrase Paul MacCartney, "Give Ireland/Soctland/Wales back to the Irish/Scottish/Welsh."

I don't know what passport he holds but mine has been a European one for the last long time,and that has been prior to them breaking up our regiments

I didn't realise there was a comedy festival at Oban over the weekend, could have sold tickets...

As A Scot Its insulting to think how low an oppinion the London parties have of Scotland .They still cant trust the Scots after 300yrs,My family have been Labour all our lives ,Im not swallowing the Unionist cause anymore,Its like admitting we are a dense lot ,

Scots people have always been citizens of the wider world. We are held back by our union with little England. Our main export to the world is our people. If we have control over our own affairs, within a European context, our vigor can return once the dead hand of socialism has been lifted. The Scots nation has been a leader in innovation. We can build on our strengths when we have independance.

Labour politicians are running scared as they see half (Hopefully more than) their jobs disappearing. We need to make sure that we all vote tactically in 2007 to get rid of this bunch of scaremongering lavour politicos.

They only want to keep us so they have somewhere out the way to put the next generation of WMDs.

John Reid's scare tactics are simply pathetic. That is such a low tactic trying to frighten people in this way.
The majority of Scots will just laugh that one off.

Let's start working now toward a written constitution
for an independent Scotland. One which makes it clear to any future Leadership that they are the servants of the people at all times, not their masters.

...and so the Scare tactics begin... the only problem with that is that most Scots can now clearly see that they are talking merde - they are shaken - make no mistake about that... but it just shows the contempt that labour have for the Scottish people that they come out with these downright lies, like we are too stupid to govern ourselves - Terrorists? hahahahaha - you're having a laugh john-boy...

Scaremongering is all this is and it should be treated with the disdain that labour regularly show towards Scotland...

#59 Banking would not change in an Independent Scotland, so dont really see your point

#60 As usual you miss the point! or do you actually believe the pathetic scaremongering of the labour party, if you do your a bigger fool that you think

I dont understand why labour thinks, family ties on both sides of the border will break down through Independence.

Ahhhh I see Westminster will go in the Huff like the petulant children they are, we rule we rule we rule

Rule Brittania Brittania rules the waves , britain shall never be slaves. No the 'Polish' will (refer to comment #41).

Please, please everyone vote SNP.

Disgraceful comments from Reid. This is the sort of scare mongering tactic President Bush and his cronies use to scare the uneducated hicks in America. It is now apparent that Labour are worried about the growing SNP support in Scotland.

"Independence 'will be gift to terrorists and illegal immigrants'"

Should read....

"Labour is a gift to terrorists and illegal immigrants"

or 'not fit for purpose'

Reid talks a shameful load of rubbish and typical of this intellectually bankrupt government...

Who the hell does Reid think he is talking to? I can only assume that only the average Labour supporter would sit and listen to the ravings of this demented man. My wife is English, my eldest son was born in England, my other two kids were born in Scotland. Independence will never change these facts. Reid says "hundreds of thousands of children and grandchildren, parents and grandparents, overnight becoming 'English' or 'Scottish" They already are both English and Scottish, It depends on where they are born Fool. I hate to say it but it looks like Nu-Labour in Scotland are adopting the Joseph Goebbels big lie. In this theory, the English are attributed with using a propaganda technique wherein they had the mendacity to "lie big" and "stick to it" The same approach Bush used on the US regarding the Iraq war.

Another reason to have independence is to stop things being forced on us. I have just read the article on nuclear power and how we should have a power station imposed on us because, even though we produce enough energy for us, the UK doesn't for itself. So we should be the dumping ground for their needs? If they need it so bad they can build it in England. Time for independence - vote SNP

Prepare yourself for the big dirty tricks campaign,it,s on the way!!!!

More scare tactics, all Reid is worried about is having to find a nice safe seat for himself in England after he is shown the door in Scotland. This goes for Brown also.

We are entering a period of polaristation between Unionism and Nationalism.At last Scotland is divided into two distinct groups.(a)Those who realise they have burglars in the house(called Blair Brown Reid and McConnell) and
(b)those who are still unaware of it (which is incredible since they opened thr door to let them in )!
The gang of four will not be happy until we give them a hand to load up the Westminster get away van!
Thankfully they have been reduced to the lowest level of debate possible,and it is beginning to register in opinion polls.
If you make one man understand something he will always triumph over ten who do not.It just takes a bit longer sometimes.

Typical New labour:
anything they want is to "help in the fight against terror"
anything they don't want is "a gift to terrorists".

Dame Stelle Remington former head of Mi5, who should actually know about terrorism,
described the ID was the ID card system that Labour are insistent should be foisted on us all (at our expense) as a gift to terrorism. the government weren't too keen to publicise that one though.

Scotland, unlike the rest of the UK, needs more immigrants.

What we don't need is New Labour, their tired lies, their trident replacement and their ill-judged foreign policy.

It's back to the days of Thatcher where the opinions of the Scottish population are totally ignored by the government.

John Reid's current favoured political phrase "not fit for purpose" aptly describes the man himself. Despite the fact that a majority of the electorate in both Scotland and England have indicated that they want an independent Scotland, Mr. Reid and his fellow Scottish cabinet ministers are desperate for the Union to remain because if it does not and Scotland gains independence, Reid et al will lose their seats on the Westminster gravy train. From Blair down, their desparation was evident in the speeches they gave at the Scottish labour conference in their attempt to deride the SNP and derail the movement towards independence. I can see many more dirty tricks coming from this bunch of desparado's between now and the May elections.

83 I don't think this form of arguement does the cause for an independent scotland any good whatsoever.
it is exactly the same as the scaremongering in reverse.
please try to construct a reasoned adult argument

I cant believe that John Reid actually believe what he is being given to say, especially all this stuff about families. Which also came from another labour politician before the oban conference, me thinks, they are working to a plan put down by spin doctors, including one from the USA (there was a story about Republican Spin doctor coming over to help labour)
Conspiracy theories aside, hope they keep this up, Ive never seen a political party in melt down before. At this rate labour will loose all credabilty (well what they have). Cant wait for the next installment from them

91. Why do we need more immigrants?

Why is that Arthur. We seem to be dragged into our neighbours policies and arrogance continually. Most terrorists have a grievance with the west as they have controlled them financially and culturally for centuries.

I dont want that reputation. Rule who and why should they Rule. We all coexist on this planet, its about time we respect each other.

How would the Scottish culture developed if our neighbours had respected us, I believe we never tried to conquer England, I do believe they conquered us.

As Much as i Loathed Thatcher ,She didnt Let Terrorists out of British prisons onto our streets.Labour did.

"""TONY Blair delivered his most passionate and comprehensive condemnation of Scottish nationalism yesterday, declaring that he "detested" the SNP's "politics of fear and grievance"""

OK Tony make up a sentence or a well known phrase or saying using these words pot, kettle, black.

I do believe the Scots should have the opportunity of developing there culture without the constraints of our neighbours peacfully and with respect, not as cannon fodder for their means.

I am Scottish and have two sons living in the USA. My eldest son was born in England and the younger boy in Scotland
Recently my eldest son took out American nationality whilst at the same time my younger boy refused to give up his SCOTTISH identity Let Scotland take her independence and then put the cat amongst the pigeons by opting to become the 51st state of America, nuclear weapons and all . There are five million Scots in Scotland and over THIRTYFIVE Million of Scottish descent in America .Tight American control on Scottish borders. No illegal immigrants or English allowed. Let England trade with Europe as she does when she betrayed Australia and New Zealand on joining the common market.The English boast of their M ULTI CULTURAL SOCIETY. Well SCOTLAND has one culture . that of genius and inventiveness. Dont believe me ? Ask Logie Baird, Alec Graham Bell. Dunlop,Macaddam. As a parting shot
can the MOD tell us what the 51st Highland Division were doing at St Valery en Coeur when the evacuation at Dunkirk was taking place?

Was it the Germans of WWII who said if you are going to lie, make them great big lies so that the people will believe you?

Can't wait for the next set of polls, this has got to rank with "Go home, and and prepare for opposition!"

One of the most amazing political "own goals" in modern politics.

I mean, it's one thing to say you guys are too dumb to run your own country, but to actually believe your own nonsense and spout this stuff?

Alex Salmond only has to keep quiet from now until May07 and let the likes of Reid recruit for him.

Wow, great, fandabbydozy, labour are on the defensive and rightly so, labour does not deserve to govern this proud country of mine. For too long we’ve been shafted by the stranglehold of Scottish labour pimping for their English overlords. It’s time for independence and time for a second enlightenment that’s far removed from the threat of illegal wars and the fascist prophets of fear and ignorance.

As for staying part of the E.U. this is yet another misnomer, we all know by now it’s impossible to weed out the corruption from inside, what each country needs to do is to stand back and watch it topple before rebuilding a safer, more reliable and honest way forward.

Penultimate point don’t be fooled by fiscal insecurities already 60% of Scotsman and 30% of Scotswomen die prematurely each year by comparison to their English cousins. Final point Scottish independence has nothing to do with liking the English as a nation I very much like the English….but detest their soul destroying politicians almost as much as I detest the dishonesty of the Scottish labour party who plays second sycophantic fiddle to the English courts and not first for Scotland.

I almost choked on my dinner when I heard Alexander say 'the biggest economic decision Salmond has made was which horse to back at the 3.30 at Kempton'.

Need to do better than that I'm afraid.

I also believe I heard Mr Reid being critical of Mr Salmond for not 'building the Scottish Parliament'. Not the best choice of words considering the management of the Holyrood project.

New scriptwriters needed me thinks.

Personally i think the holyrood debacle was deliberate to make us think that if we can't even build a builing how can we run a country. For startes we get people that have scotlands interests at heart to run it and not just have a puppet government.

#94. Scott 'Ola' Foam,
Scott we need emigrants because our best brains and workers have for centuries had to leave Scotland to make their way in the world.

Some places in England eg have more Scots ex miners, steel workers etc than natives as these folk took the Government's advice and got on their bicycles to look for work.

The result is that the country now faces a skills shortage.

Echelon x @ 5 etc You wouldn't be the press officer for the MOD by any chance? What rubbish you revel in! If you want an indication of how John Reid operates just remember when he, in one of many Ministerial jobs he was responsible for (and did nothing with any of them) together with Peter Mandelson, Keith Vass, Geoffrey Robinson were all under investigation by Elizabeth Filkin. She was the Parliamentary Commissioner who supervised the actions of MPs and their naughty goings on. We know that as sleaze! Her enquiries into all these Ministers was described as "fair and thorough and has been fired for doing her job too well"! All her findings were blocked by the Speakers of the House, "Gorbals Mick" and Betty Boothroyd. Funnily enough they were New Labour MPs too. In other words New Labour from the top to the bottom are mired in sleaze and cover up and wonder why they are not trusted. How can anyone put up a case for the Mother of Parliaments when she is shown to be no more than a well paid House of Whores.

#105 refer to comment 41. As Scots lets greet them with a Scots welcome then, and pay them a fair wage, not like some of the privately educated mini lords that i've had to watch and encounter.

"""...And, referring to his widely anticipated leadership bid against Gordon Brown, Mr Reid joked: "Almost one million of us Scots live and work in England - in all walks of life, up to and including the Prime Minister. And I am told the next Prime Minister might be a Scot as well."..."""

Better make it quick John.

After May Scottish Westminster MPs will be on a notice to quit.

I returned home from London to take part in Scottish Devolution.

I expect a few more on the eve of Independance.

Watching John Reid at the lectern in Oban on Sunday, trying to be smart and funny with his SNP slaying speech, I could not help feeling sorry for him. He would have made a great stand up comedian. He was like Billy Connolly’s ex. boxer character on the top deck of a Glasgow bus, every time the conductor rang the bell, ding ding, he would jump up and shadow box and try and punch someone.
The old pugilist wants us to believe that this will tear families apart, forcing them to choose which passport to have. Dream on Reid, my family is mixed English/ Scottish/ Irish/ NZ/ German, they will not be tearing apart. People like you with your ghostie stories are just utterly offensive and pathetic.
He also wants us to belive that independence will increase terrorism. BLIAR should hang his head in shame the way his warmongering has brought terror to England. Stupid ignorant condescending rhetoric that will have offended many Scots and cost them more votes. Watch out for a major terror scare coming to your street soon. " 23 arrested in Auchtermuchty terror raids."
Reid was twitching and jerking his way through his speech. Punch drunk and reckless. Bobbing and weaving, ducking and diving, and getting his cheap laughs, like the clown he is. And the underlying tone of the whole thing was his latent hatred of the SNP for voting with the Tories and killing of an already dead Labour government in 79. Reid, Brown, Blair, are the best recruiting team the SNP ever had.
Perhaps Scotland will get an apology from Blair for England’s imperialism, which forced us into a destructive union with them.
No wonder Alex Salmond is always smiling. Still it beats the dour furrowed glower of Broon any day. I would just advise Alex not to eat in any sushi restaurants in London in the future. This union is fighting ever more dirty and desperate for survival.
When will these self interested morons realise the more you pontificate and smear and insult and spin you

Just for seconds ... thro' the Thatcher years Labour always had the support of Labour voters in Scotland who wanted rid of the Tories. These same voters have been conned into voting in a more right wing government than Thatcher, albeit with some minor adjustments. What a reward for loyalty!!

I think Tony Blair and John Reid have made a big mistake this weekend, the best thing he could have done was keep silent on the SNP (wee Jack did the right thing for once) or just not go to the Oban Conference. Blair has only legitimised what Nicola Sturgeon has been pounding for the last 6 months: that this election is a two horse race between the SNP and Labour. He has done her work for her. There are always going to be the party faithful who would have clapped Tony to kingdom come no matter what he said. But if he thinks that all the people who have voted labour for the last 10-15 are hardened Labour voters then he is gravely mistaken. What Tony has effectively said to the electorate is “Is if you are unhappy with me, the only way to get rid of me is vote SNP”. The Scottish Labour party are trying to campaign on devolved bread and butter stuff and stay away from Westminster issues as it is out of the remit of the Parliament. TB, JR and GB have trashed that idea and legitimised the SNP using the devolved arena to tackle constitutional issues. Also putting Jack further out of the limelight. The best thing Labour could have done was say “this is a devolved election, constitutional amendments are fully a reserved matter, we won’t even give them the time of day”

Instead their ranting has legitimised the SNP’s presence and highlighted the true danger they are to London Labour. I don’t know many people around here who actively look kindly on anything Tony Blair endorses.

"Labour paints doom-laden picture of Scotland under SNP" The labour party have bought some paint but instead of useing to make them selfs look better the use it to slag of their biggist threat. (Is this going to be the new typical of unionists trate, Instead of concentrating on whats Best for Scotland and the people they're going to slag of the people who want nohing but the best for their country)

"Families, economy and security all to be in deep trouble if the Nats get control" (Typical Unionist Scary storys) They have no proff of this. These thing suffer to some extent within the union.

The security thing, I'm sure most countrys and terrist organsations don't see Scotland as a threat so there thofore theirs possible a lower threat to security without the union.
People don't atc for noreason unless they're crasy. Most people are not crasy.

"Perhaps Scotland will get an apology from Blair for England’s imperialism, which forced us into a destructive union with them."

Not in my name.

110 True Thats why Half my family in England are voting Tory and other half in Scotland are voting SNP.My family in England are saying folk down there are just so tired of Labour and its time for a change .

#107. Scott 'Ola' Foam
Fair days pay for a fair days work?

No problem with that.

These Poles etc are only doing here what those Scots have done in England, America, Canada, NZ, Oz.

If they come to work and contribute to the community, even the English ones, I say come over and make yourself at home.

Most, exept the English ones, come to make some money to set themselves up in their native land where their costs of living are much lower than ours.

btw. A fair proportion of my family is English and Irish.

That's it. This discussion thread is too dull. The BBC site has got a lot more intolerance and pure rage on it. Can you lot not start to get a bit more heated on this topic?

If there are any English participating , can you all start to whinge about Scotland taking handouts from London.

And can the Scots start to blame the English for Scotland not qualifying for the last world cup.

And can everyone start to blame the EU for everything.

Why should John Reid be the only one allowed to talk keech on the issue? Come on, everyone. Lets get the extreme intolerance rolling....

we left scotland when i was young dad looking for a better life for his family . too many people have left thats why scotland needs immigrants. with a falling population independence is the only way to gain control , boost population and the economy

I Reid's words... Scotland will be Terrorised if we become independant..

By Who?

The UK Government? Tony Blair's & his accomplices? ? ?

For certain, we are less safe with Tony B-Liar's & Accomplices in Government.

If they are fighting this hard to keep scotland then surely they need us more than we need them. As For families getting ripped apart how dramatic is that? People already choose which nationality they are it is just a ridiculous statement which shows how flimsy their argument is.

Anyone who compares the London control of the nations of the UK and Brussels control of EU Member States either knows nothing about governance in the EU or the UK or, chances are, have no clue about either system as they haven’t taken the time to put down their Daily Mail or Press and Journal and actually read up on it.

When was the last time Brussels took a Member State to war?

When was the last time Brussels placed nuclear power stations in a Member State?

When was the last time Brussels docked Weapons of Mass Destruction in a Member States river?

When was the last time Brussels refused a referendum in a Member State?

When was the last time Brussels allowed the USA to land its cargoes of cluster bombs on the territory of a Member State?

The list is endless…..

I like English people, there great normal English people dont make the decisions......

It's about governance, and why we should pass a political warning shot across there flank.

Reid has a point about immigration. Scotland's political class is unanimous thatScotland would never do anything not nice to get rid of illegal immigrants but I suspect popukar opinion is more robust.

And this from the man who said that British troops posted to Afghanistan would be unlikely to fire a shot during their tour of duty.
Czechoslovakia managed a successful dissolution in 1993 so why can't Scotland. The only reason Labour wants to prevent independence is that is want to maintain its socialist fiefdoms in the central belt and keep Brown, Reid, Alexander, et al in power in Westminster

#17 - You wish... You'd be lucky to find a VC in Scotland even prepared to talk to you. They're only interested in private equity type deals nowadays..

That's what being under the thumb of the City of London has done for Scotland !!

Megz @ 118

The Labour party do need the Scottish vote. The PM in waiting holds a Scottish seat, so do key members of the cabinet, such as John Reid and Alistair Darling.

They want to hang onto their seats and they need the Scottish to vote for them. That is why Labour are spending much more time thrashing this issue out in Scotland than they are in England.

This issue is not making as many column inches in the serious English press.

Labour need to hang onto their powerbase in Scotland to keep their party in power at Westminster. If some of their key MPs lose their seats in May to the SNP, for instance, the balance of power at Westminster will shift radically for the Labour party. They only have a small majority now and the loss of heavyweights like Reid, Darling or Brown could seriously upset their gravy train.

At the moment the Scottish vote is of far more consequence to the Labour party than the English one is.

John Reid said (or rather frothed) "Organised crime won't stop at Carlisle. Illegal immigrants will not be daunted by the River Tweed."

Oh my. This must mean that the organised criminals and illegal immigrants are readily able to reach England, and are at large there - a terrifying confession from the ah - Home Secretary. Mmm. Wasn't he the Defence Secretary?

When politicians resort to spouting this sort of rabid nonsense, it is clear that they have completely run out of ideas (their principles we can only guess they must have lost long ago) and are desperately resorting to lies fabrication and "bogey man will get you" stories in the hope that those stupid enough to have voted for them once will be readily deceived once again when presented with an even bigger set of lies.

He has shot himself and his party in the foot and the head all at once. The sad thing is, neither of those shots will have affected the brain.

Observing politics in this country truly is like witnessing the undead walk the earth. Roll on May 7...

When England becomes independent the Labour Party will lose power at Westminster. The majority in England want an English parliament. This will very quickly lead to full English independence. Without the Scottish vote an English parliament will reflect the will of English voters. No more Gordon Browns, John Reids etc etc. They can return to their own Scottish constituencies and run thir own country's affairs. So please ensure the Scotnats keep up the good work.

Aye John, and there will be fire flood and pestilence in the land, and lo! shall there be a huge wall between the two nations, and all relatives shall be sundered by that wall, for if they should speak to other they may be sullied by the virus of the dark demon of AUTONOMY, and the sky shall be filled by the opportunistic nuclear warheads of N. Korea and Iran, the evil new rulers of Scotland will sell off land to U.S. sanitary disposal (toxic) engineers, for as everyone knows, independent nations also become magnets for all atmospheric, oceanic and terrestial pollution.... Aye John, we should all be quaking in oor brogues, quivering in oor peatbogs, shuddering at the fell sounds of people taking responsibility for their own lives... and if you wish an example of just how dreadful confidence in a nation can be, just look at Ireland. Thankyou John for saving my erroneous soul from heading in the direction of independence, for thy words are the salvation of the nation, amen.

And by the way John, its a good thing that criminal murdering thugs like Johnny Adair don't really live in Troon, eh?

Independence is NOT important in this instance...What is important is finding out WHY an independant Scotland would be more dangerous than a Scotland which is part of the union....

If Reid is correct then he needs to express how labour have managed to put Scotland at even greater risk..

I find it hilarious that less than 500 party faithful bothered to turned up to the Scottish Labour party Annual Conference, when over 350 Dundonians turned up to an SNP public meeting in Caird Hall. Won't read that in the Scotsman.

Labour can kiss goodbye to Dundee West I think. I also love how 21 Glasgow Labour councillors have taken severance packages rather than face the up coming cull.

These Scottish/British Labour Party politicians can dream-up all sorts of ridiculous arguments against independence. It just proves LABOUR= Lies And Boring Old Unionist Rubbish. I can't wait for the chance to boot them out of power in Scotland.

I agree with with previous posters that this is a pathetic, desperate attempt not only to keep his job, but also to keep his party in power in the UK parliament.

However, what many of the nationalists refuse to recognise or admit is that Scotland IS dependent on subsidies, either from the UK parliament or from the EC's regional budget.

Following independence, Scotland would lose those subsidies from the UK and would have to wait in the queue (and share the pot) with the likes of Poland, Romania, etc. for the EC money.

Scotland has always been a more pro-European country than England. We will do nicely as an independent small country in Europe. Let's loosen ourselves from the apron strings of monoglot, Anglo-Saxon England and USA, and be where 'culture' isn't just an euphemism for an Arts Council funded tourism project. Let's project a philosophy of humanism rather than survivalism. Let's establish the Scots language as distinct from English in minor but important ways alongside Gaelic as one of three official languages of business and polity.

English Geeza

What exactly is the "UK parliament"? Never heard of it.........

I almost forgot, the conference hall in Oban became too small to hold an SNP conference in years ago. Labour barely filled in when top attraction Tony was in town, did you see how empty it was when wee Alexander came out to play?

Labour would try and do anythink to keep power. It is very disappinted that the Labour party do this.
SNP will win next year and Scotland can look forward to Independence. I don't understand Labour party thay can still Goven Scotland In a Independence Scotland.

John Reid is becoming a bigger joke every day. Might I suggest he spends a bit more time doing the job he is actually paid to do - making the UK Home Office fit for purpose - and a bit less time doing an impression of Chicken Little.

He has an unbelievable cheek when you think about it, considering the quite appalling track record of his government in these areas. How does he manage to say these things with a straight face?

Why should anyone believe a single word that John Reid utters? An ex Communist who is now a fervent admirer of Blair and his fellow warmongers in Washington- and people are expected to vote for this man? Dream on indeed!
So long as there are nuclear weapons sitting in the Holy Loch Scotland will be at MAJOR RISK from terrorism; when we are independent Trident missiles will go - at a stroke terrorism risk will disappear and sadly Reid and his fellow warmongers will be unemployed because no longer will there be a Labour Government in Westminster - ever! It is the Scottish Labour MPs who provide the majority which enables the present bunch to invade countries illegally - and now they propose to replace Trident at vast cost thereby breaking the nuclear non proliferation Treaty which the UK has signed

The tone of Reid's speech does indeed remind one of the excesses of Nazi propaganda - as does the impunity with which international rules and treaties are flouted.

The English People want Scotland to go for SNP. English Don't want a Scottish Mp to run England.

God Save England

# 133 English Geezer. What many English fail to recognise is that the jury is out on the whether or not Scotland does get a "subsidy". As always with these complex issues, you can make the economic statistics support either argument and in both instances they appear credible at face value.

The issue of "subsidy" is completely irrelevant. No-one in their right mind would think that Scotland - post independence - would seek to operate along the same lines as it does now. Clearly that is not what people want or they would not be seeking autonomy. Things will change dramatically in Scotland should it go for independence. Things will change dramatically in England too. But dramatic change is what a lot of people seem to want.

And as for subsidy, I worked for a time in London and came to the view that the real subsidy being paid in the United Kingdom is the one to London. I have traveled around the world and have NEVER come across a city where so many sub standard employees get paid over inflated wages. I would say that around 80% of your fellow Londoners are being "subsidised" by the English, Welsh and Scots.

26. Ed Moran, Devon / 3:27am 27 Nov 2006 The quicker the Scots get independence the better - for the English.

Stand on your own two feet, stop taking £10b a year from us and let us decide our own future without a block vote of Scottish politicians interfering in matters that have nothing to do with them.
***

Unfortunately Scotland hasn't been freed from westminister shackles, nor allowed to devolp that option yet. Its been generations so far that the history of the world and scotland has tried to be exploited by England. History doesnt lie. As so far as `let you stand on your own two feet` without scotlands own historical revenue (oil +) you wouldnt have been able to stand. Que `terriost and immigration` speil by mr reid. Your countries lack of respect for history & culture, really does shine.

Reid & brown should stop this scaremongering which is only intented to stimulate in-fighting, but at the same time revealing deep-rooted patriotic nationalism and historical pride.

£10b we take from you over the last 50 years is about 1% off what you've raped from us in the last 10 years. your stated point only serves to highlight your knowledge of the area, something typical of your countrymen. `Let england make your own descisions?` I laugh at your ironic ignorance.

bring on independance, its only the infighting that stands in our way, which has almost always been related to intervention & promise from south of the border. puppets like brown, blair and reid should get a real job.

John Reid gives a warning shot across our bow. And I don't mean figuratively. The Unionists will see Scotland destroyed before they will let us go.

In a Representative democracy, which some claim we are, our representatives (MP's) supposedly act in the people's interest. Well just like Tony B. being caught off guard by the difficulty of scheduling a Doctor's appointment, most MP's are so insulated by the trappings of office that they have no idea what the people's interest is. Therefore they substitute their own interest and enjoy better salaries, pensions, and health care because of it. Burn's was right "A Parcel of Rogues in a Nation".

More crimes against Scottish humanity commencing in ...three, two one...

59. What are you talking about? Are you worried that HBOS or RBS will collapse with independence? Why would that happen?

What is going on here with these hysterical comments?

Passports at the border? Banks collapsing?

Vote for the SNP and the sky will fall in.

Grow up.

140. Callum,Is Leeds not in yorkshire.
Independence for yorkshire please.
They know they want it.

P.S. The Scots don't have the stomach for change on this scale so you can expect things to be the same in years to come.

As much as all three countries within Great Britain are screaming out for change, it wont happen soon. You can take comfort in the rot continuing for some time. Perhaps with Dr John at the helm as you invade the Lebanon.

Well said Callum @ 140

That apart, Douglas Alexander's comments about the next First Minister will surely backfire.

If Alex Salmond at 52 is an "old man", what does that say about someone who's 60, 65 or 70+ ?.

How disrespectful Labour if you think that being ineffective equates with being old. Of course in Sir Ming's case - there is always one exception !

Once independance is achieved, scum like Reid, Brown, Blair etc must be denied Scottish citizenship
for their treasonable comments. If that fails, the least we can do is ban them from holding public office. The one thing we must never do however,
is to forget the speeches these traitors have been making recently.

As an Englishman living in England who reads the Scotsman-( my great grandmother lived in a croft and smoked a clay pipe! ) can I just say that Labour will only stay in power with the help of the Scotish vote. Is this some kind of revenge on the English!

21 E. Smith
Norway lies off the beaten track for major industry does it? Maybe you should listen to your own government, Brussels, Norway and anyone in the oil industry then. Norway shares the O&G rights to The Barents Sea. Undisputed, one of the biggest untapped reserves on the planet.

..and it should be noted that Hadrians Wall was only erected to keep scotland at bay, not keep them out.

Our resistance, independence, history, culture, and respect have always been treated squeezed with contempt.

I look forward to independence, a real opportunity, and if Scotland’s got the bottle to induce a smoking ban as such seen, and its prevalent attitudes remain intact we are only a beacon in the global field for diversifying our blooming tourism, energy management, engineering, innovation, and historical feilds!
What?!.. Oil feilds running out? expertise and skills are global transferable skills.

Bring on pay for performance Holyrood!
the only hurdle in our way are ourselves!

We must stand united against this barrage of rubbish coming from the most incompetent, dishonest and dangerous government in living memory. For them to spraff about increasing the terrorist threat is a very sick joke. We need our Independence and we need it NOW!

There is no reason why we can't have acheive the seamless rebirth of a new Nation. The infrastructure needn't be dismantled and the Civil Service could maintain continuity for all the businesses, schools, hospitals, benefits agencies, law, town halls, community groups etc. We just need a bit of belief in our own ability.

The Westminster parties stick their heads in the sand though, imagining that Independence will never come- mad fools! We can't wait for them any longer.

123 Dick! You missed the point

I refer to Old Roy's comment regarding security of savings and I note the lack of response about where to invest etc. By the tone of the SNP Rabble who dominate this site the future of an independent Scotland will be economically dangerous which is already obvious to all outside observers. Suggest invest anywhere outside Scotland and the sooner the better before controls are put in place to stop capital fleeing from far left socialist 'policies'!

The English People want Scotland to go for SNP. English Don't want a Scottish Mp to run England.

God Save England
***

yeah exactly god save england, because your own Hypocrisy wont.
Scotland are of the same opinion, its just a shame your goverment cant reflect your as well as our own views. No one wants G.Brown either, the whole thing is being fudged, to no ones satisfaction. what a farce, we live in today. Privtise the whole of politics, and watch the P45's fly!

Its about time the people actually stood up and made themselves known. The established and society-rooted example such as the no-smoking act, it only reflects scotlands real ambition for its own peoples' goals being tied into its economies and health. (care for people etc)

One thing, Ive learned from my travels, I'm proud to be from Scotland.

Both our lands will still be attatched by independance, so whats the big deal. What is England scared of? why did bush invade USA. The answer lies in power, wealth and expertise. Their heads are in the sand for a reason.

Dear John,
Whatever happened to that wonderful education you got in your teens.We had the good fortune to find ourselves reared in the system that rewards hard work and radical thinking.I look at the work of the other allumni and I am proud.
Academics in London,Bristol,Birmingham and Glasgow.Musicians in leading orchestras at home and abroad.Artists who have made a name world wide.Dotors,lawyers,teachers,health staff and thousands of others in rewarding jobs.
Oh! I forgot.You and a few of your pals,slipped out of the building,especially when the teaching was to encourage radical thinking.You showed little respect for the great gift you were being given: even less for those who wished to
hear the lesson.
Such a pity!It is all too late now....a leopard does not change his spots.Sadly I will never be able to reveal to my grandchildren that I went to school with a top politician.
Yours faithfully,
Mentorscotus.
ps. Even though you did disrupt my lessons I got over it to become a success.

Despite disagreements that have gone somewhat further than mere words, our excellent relationship at a personal level with the great majority of citizens of the Irish Republic has not been distanced. There is still unremarkable intermarriage and free movement between us, irrespective of independence. Why should the relationship with an independent Scotland be any different?

Aside from a malevolent Labour government possibly attempting anything underhand, there is no earthly reason why an English person living in Scotland shouldn't have the option between a Scottish or English passport, without affecting continued right of residence, nor conversely for a Scot living in England.

However, as to soldiers, you should not assume that no Scot would be deployed in Iraq or wherever its future contentious equivalent might be. Citizens of RoI can & do join the British Forces. Maybe a Scottish soldier or two would opt to continue likewise, as offering a wider scope in his/her chosen career.

Unimpressive, illogical, scaremongering by Reid!

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear, what gobledegook, and this man aspires to become a unionist leader! I quake in my shoes for the poor, unprotected peoples of Denmark, Austria, Belgium, the Republic of Ireland and the citizens of all the other threatened wee nations in Europe. Ah yes, the Republic of Ireland, I don't see the Irish clambering to climb back on the nuclear submarine of British freedom and protection. To the habinger of fear I can only quote Franklin D. Roosevelt, a good Democrat President of the USA "the only thing to fear is fear itself". And by the way I am one of those infruriating people who cannot be easily pigeon holed, I have served Queen and Country, come from a long line of distinguished naval Commanders, I am not and never have been a Scot. Nat. and I have, like so many others, both voted for and marched against the policies of Blair. And, by the way, I would be very proud, as a citizen of Europe, to have a Scottish passport.

I hope Reids speech is the downfall of the Labour party.
Which terrorists does he refer to "English" ones.2 No one faces a choice which nationalityTHEY MAKE IT .
3 As for illegals could it get WORSE. They have already made it only 2 years in Scotland to become naturalised

Lets get on with it...........then I can start my own campaign, Free the Scottish Borders from the tyranny of Edinburgh. No income tax or VAT, leaded fuel available, download free music and you can rustle sheep, there's hunners doon here.............council tax unfortunately to stay high.

No 5#

I have never met anyone in Scotland that supports the war, except your good self of course !

We all support our follow scots in the war so do not confuse this with support for the war !

Glasgow and the west of Scotland will still buy the Daily Record(comic) and vote Labour what chance independance, perhaps Glasgow could join England allong with Celtic and Rangers.

I think your retoric ,Reid, is all that it is to protect your position,pluss the fact youve lost the place . Go back to Westminster and stay there.

So, 51 is old? Yet we are expected to carry on working 'til we're 70?
When the hell are we going to get real politicians that do as WE want?
The money they earn, allowances etc. I'M SO MAD!!!!

John Reid is actually a very dangerous man making statements like the ones he has.
the problem is that Alexander, Brown and Co. are all so far up TB's backside they could not tell the truth if their lives depended on it. However, they are all too willing to gamble with ours.
Time to get them all out Now!!!!!!

Me too the're all lawyers and economists ,of doubt

Blair said when he read the SNP defence policy he didn't know whether to laugh or cry. Was that because there was nothing in it about illegally invading other Countries and causing the deaths of thousands upon thousands of people ?

Same old lies being spun by Labour. The politics of fear, "if you dont vote for us the bogeyman will get yer" they helped stir up the hornets nest and now they're telling us it's only them who can sort it!!!

Roll on May and goodbye old and new Labour

Forget your party whips and policies, Represent the people who put you in power and you promised to represent their wishes

Don't forget how the strict UK financial regulations have prevented the Scottish business sector from being dismantled, for instance, ermmm.... Distiller's Company, now there's a prime example of how Scotland's economy is protected. Move it into the hands of an English based multi national, you can feel the benefit, can't you?.
Oh and of course how the marine borders were skilfully "re-arranged" to allocate Scottish oilfield production to English refineries therefore preventing the Scots economy from overheating.
Or how, helpfully, after closing down docks all over Scotland, Scots production is shipped from southern ports. Providing the damning statistic of how 90% of our exports is to England, (I think they mean through England).

Only one scary thought and that is we weaken the labour party but not enough to take control, and allow the Tories control south of the border,

Scary thought, worse of two evils.

28 mentioned for Scotland to stand on our own 2 feet. No problem. All the oil that is in Scotland waters belongs to Scotland so all the profits can come to Scotland and we will sell it to the English. Its just another part of the English empire that shrinks even more. All you have left is the Falklands and thats at the ass end of the world.

bawheid reid the transparent man.

Reply to 171

Think about this though. The Tories will be in power within the next 5 to 10 years. That is my estimate and it is based on memory of all those years ago watching Jon Snow's Swingometer displaying the as-per-usual massive advantage to the Tories. 1983, 1987, 1992 and so on. I remember distinctly seeing the map of Britain with red and yellow patches in Scotland and Wales with the odd blue bit here and there and then looking at the south of England. Blue. 20-25 million voters all having put their weight behind the Tories. This is what England really votes for. Yes there are bits of other colours splashed elsewhere in the north. But I arrived at the conclusion that none of that mattered. Middle England, when it gets fed up with Labour will instinctively go back to the Tories. It will never vote for the Liberal Democrats because it never has.

#171, you're wrong, it's that very mentality that has kept us shackled to labour and all its broken promises, fear. It's also got nothing to do with down south, if there is a nat govt in holyrood then they can opt for a referendum.

you must be playing for the other side

Can't believe the Scotsman is even printing this nonsense. Of course though, the insistence by Belgium that they maintain their independence from France and Holland has led to a huge upsurge of terrorism.

It's Westminster's illegal wars that endanger us. Not Scotland choosing her own path. Our troops and Iraqi civilians are not dying because of Scottish self-autonomy.

177 Maybe the Parliament can go back to its True home!Yes Glasgow does and always will have the last say What direction Scotland is going Even in an Independent Scotland ,What a silly comment.Most people choose to live in the west coast, Labour are losing grip even in Glasgow

No SNP all the way, just praying we get enough votes to take control of the Scottish assembly, and preventing the tories from entering south of the border.

John Reid has got to be the biggest labour vote loser in town. Argumentative, dogmatic, a failure in every department he has trampled through, he is the archtypal Labour bully-boy.

180 True

@ Dukie. An interesting slant, and one I ask myself quite often. Why indeed would someone like Reid favour the union, given his documented support for the Irish Republicans. Very strange.

One thing I have to laugh at on these boards is the rabid nationalism that rears it's head in what appears to be an orchestrated manner.

Where sensible arguments appear then that's fine, but some of the posts above offer nothing to the debate whatsoever. "It's Coming" ??? based on a few opinion polls? I'll believe it when I see it.

For those nationalists who live abroad and feel obliged to tell us how our country should be run, unless you wish to live with the results of the next elections, your opinions will be treated with disdain.

Now, I believe I'm not on my own here, but the debate here from the parties is the usual shallow headline grabbing nonsense that still doesn't tell us exactly how they intend to make our lives better.

If we get Independence - what next? The economics and policies we are being fed by the SNP and their apologists look great, but they neglect some serious points.

While I take Reid's terrorism with a pich of salt, there are some serious consequences to segregation of the union, and there is some merit to what he's saying.

Firstly, while Scotland disassociating itself from England may seem like a move that would reduce any threat from terrorists, but who can really put their hand on their hearts and really be 100% sure that this is the case. Have Al Qeada been briefing Salmond that Scotland won't be under threat if we go Independent? I don't think so.

Whether we see ourselves as a target or not is irrelevant, an independent Scotland would still need an equivalent of an MI5 and MI6. Do we simply hope that the current Intelligence services are decentralised, and we assume control over the Scottish operation? Or do the English throw the toys out of the pram, sacking all the Scots, closing down the o

continued from above

private sector. At the moment there is an element of competition over locating new businesses from abroad, but segregation of the countries would seriously up the ante in this competition. Are we ready for that, and can we compete? Should we be competing, when we can work together? What about English owned companies currently in Scotland - will we do enough to keep them here - and can we afford to?

As for the Immigration issue, I'm all for filling the gaps in the skillset of the nation by allowing migrants to better themselves, and mix up the culture of this nation - but at what cost?
Just how many "native" Scots will be allowed to remain on benefits, while migrants do the work that "Scots" should be doing?

When it comes to the "illegal" section of immigrants, Labour's management of the whole issue has been appalling, so it's rather hypocritical for them to use this as an issue that an independent Scotland would be weak on, however, it has to be asked of the SNP what infrastructure they would set up to combat the problem, as they would probably also have to set this up from scratch. They don't appear to have argued back how Reid is talking nonsense, which isn't very re-assuring.

That's not to mention the emotional aspects or the family aspects that will tear people's opinions on Independence. It may be a surprise to some, but may people in Scotland believe in the Union, not only for economic reasons, but because Scotland has a danger of becoming consumed by parochialism.

The Union affects our everyday lives more than we could ever imagine, from the biggest issue to the smallest and we can't go in to independence lightly. Imagine life without the BBC or ITV. Yes, you may think that both broadcasters are dross, but an SBC or STV running a whole schedule of their own dross would be torture!

The frustrating thing in this debate, for me, is that I've yet so see a comprehensive

eric, Still operating on the basis that one silly comment negates another. It doesn't wee man, and get used to Edinburgh being your capital. Others have a greater claim to that than Glasgow. In any case it's not what the debate is about.

Mr Thai Land....sorry mate.. the jury isnt out on whether we are subsidised by the English....its back with the result that Scotland pays in a lot more that we get out of the union.... Not that, that is any reason at all for independence.....its all the other s*&Ite that goes on that is the reason for independence..

no77 i think you will find that the majority of rangers fans are pro unionist hence all the union jacks god save the queen/rule britannia crap, whereas celtic fans are more nationalist. I'm sure i read somewhere that the unionist in this country would take up arms should it become independant. Perhaps that is where the terrorism comes in?

Norway lies off the "beaten path" as far as air routes and industry go. It does have some North Sea oil as does Scotland. Please note, however, that the majority of proven "British" petroleum reserves have already been depleted (at least that's what the CIA Fact Sheet says), so don't necessarily expect a long-term petro boom. Canada (the Alberta tars) meanwhile is the second largest producer of oil to Saudia Arabia. The UK comes in at #25.

I was going to suggest that when all else fails that Scotland opt for US statehood, but with all the derogatory comments about "Fascist Americans" and "hicks", I opted to forego this jest. At any rate, don't let stereotypical Celtic (or Keltic) temper get in the way of Scottish pragmatism and fabled reasoning skills. Otherwise, an Independent Scotland won't succeed. BTW, the term "redneck" originally referred to Americans of Scottish descent.

183 More people in Glasgow voted for a Parliament In Edinburgh than folk did in Edinburgh itself .Im very happy to have Edinburgh as our capital ,But the person was stating that Its all down to Glasgow Who will have the last say ,he was correct in that ,Unfortunatly.

More stupid comments and press releases from labour please :-)
The average person is not only not fooled but insulted by such rubbish.
What next!!!

176* because they have a new editor who doesn't understand Scottish politics . . .

186 What a load of Twaddle that was.MOST Rangers fans are just Football fans,Your thinking of the Orange .As for celtic fans being Nationalists hahaha,Thats funny ,Nationalism in Scotland is coming from all directions.

187 E Smith. in your response to my comment you add that Norway does have some oil... Look into it a bit more my friend. Norway has rights to massive reserves within The Barents within the Arctic...not some...one of the biggest gas reserves in the world. Your own government and Brussels has recognised this fact and its long term importance to the US and Europe. Norway already ships LNG to Cove Point and this will increase when Snohvit comes online.

187. I believe Scotland also brought you the KKK

And England the Potatoe famine

What utter cr*p!

#180 The more David Cameron keeps his mouth shut, the better it is for his party. Ditto to Reid.

John Reid is a numpty if he believes what he says and expects the people of Scotland to believe it too. President Bliar, ably abetted by numpty Reid, pension thief Brown and the rest of the New Labour dregs; were supported by the Tories & the Lib Dem's in taking us into an illegal war with Iraq on the 'oil' whim of Dubya. Their decision has already brought terrorism to these shores. Freeing ourselves from their scare mongering, lies and blind military support of the US will stand Scotland in better stead with the rest of the world. One of our first steps should be to recall 'our' troops from illegal war zones.
I don't suppose any country can declare that it will not be a target for international terrorism, but those who are seen not to be directly involved in encouraging or showing aggression to the present fanatical factions; will have the best chance of not being on the terrorist hit lists.
I'm sure that the SNP appreciates the sterling work that the Labour delegates have done for them at the Oban conference. Let Scots who are proud to be Scots first and foremost, keep this momentum going. It is time.

Eric, #194,

Are you Dan Quayle in disguise??? I think we should know, it's POTATO

197 Guzz. Recall OUR troops. They're British troops. wake up. Most of which aren't even in Scottish regiments. They CHOSE to join the BRITISH FORCES! Keep ranting but let the bloody service personnel make their own choices because plenty will want to stay in the British Army and not move to some 4th rate peacekeeping force with no control on anything!

Gaelic Ya numpty

mine for the taking!

No doubt about it ... labour will continue to sell independence far better than the SNP ever could ... its almost like they are planning for it !?

So why's the rest of it no in gaelic then, keet fer brains?

oops, I mean tae hit the 200!!!

#196 Eric, nationalism comes from one direction ... that of stupidity and introspection ... its not a justifiable position in any sort of progressive society.

Anyone got a scrambling machine?

No 186
I think you'll find you don't know what you are talking about. I'm sure "you're sure you read" all sorts of guff about "unionists" but as its come from the same people as yourself the statement is worthless, likewise your categorising Rangers' supporters' affiliations.
I don't deny Celtic fans may be more nationalist, nobody could, but it's for Ireland not for Scotland.
cf Aidan McGeady.
The point a few have made on here is how come the RCs of the WoS Labour Party can be so strongly in favour of an independent Ireland and so opposed to the same for Scotland.

205 Then you are saying that Most communities in Scotland Stupid ,They cant all be wrong ,

207 Very true

Only the 1/2 wits who can't spell "tattie", Dan.

210 Next

#59 Old Roy
Don't need to go too far.Those nice people in the Isle of Man will look after it for you. Be more worried about what Brown will do to your savings.

192.... Assumptions for the Barents Sea reserves are just that - assumptions.. Yes there is evidence that reserves there could be quite extensive but in the great scheme of things they're a mere drop in the hydrocarbon ocean and will have little impact on global production.

As to the North Sea then although again the data suggests the remaining reserves are equal to what's been taken out so far whether or not the final drop is ever squeezed out will depend on what happens to the oil price.

This morning I've been going over some data which strongly suggests a liquid fuels squeeze within perhaps only about five years. The oil price will then hit the roof and the push will then be on to extract as much as possible from the N Sea.

"Be afraid, be very afraid"....no, thanks

213. I see, so the oil industry data i have read, the quotes from Washington and Brussels, Gasprom and Statoil and the Norwegian govt are all wrong about The Barents Sea are they?

I read in the Herald that the Lib Dem's, and Greens have been approached by Labour no doubt to form a coalition should the SNP win the largest number of seats. Talk about holding on to power at all costs, I look forward to the rest of this week to see how Salmond responds to their infantile attacks.

And come it will for a' that...

And hopefully we'll all then be able to spell independence!

Independence 'will be gift to Scotland and legal immigrants'And an end to "A parcel o rogues in a nation"Wo'd sell there soul for English gold"? not me they've got nothin worth the takin. when our men returned their houses were burnin . same with Afganistan and Iraq. there is no regiments left

#133 This thing about Scotland being subsidies, is actually its another mith put out by the pro-unionist lobby. Consider this, that Scotland contributes £ 2.3 Billion toward the UK Defence budget out of its own Budget, which is part of the £ 5.7 Billion thats Scotland contributes to the UK Treasury out of its budget, this is over an above the £ 37 billion that is budgeted to Scottish Executive departments from the total Scottish Budget (These are the figures taken from the Scottis Executives own figures) for 2003-2004, in the same accounts Scotland generates revenue of £ 35 billions, excluding the Oil and Gas Revenues (which the government dont include, nor do they include Tobacco / Spirits Duty & Excise, nor do they include Betting and Gaming, Air Passenger Duty, Insurance premium Tax, Landfill Tax . Even the governments own figures are flawed, I managed to spot an additional £ 4 million in the expediture figures (they show identifiable expenditure total as £ 37.154 billion, but when each section is added, it is less, so its obvious figures are massaged to suite) The government , with the help of the pro-unionist press, that Scotland could not stand up on its own feet, so put out the idea that Scotland is heavily subsidised, its too small to support itself. Its a myth that there happy to perpetuate. After all this is the government that said there was WMD in Iraq, that our soldiers would not be shot at in Afghanistan, This is the governnment that want to spend billions on a new nuclear system to replace the American built Trident system with another American built system
Its endless, but it has to stop, Scotland need to be an independant state again

Tell me the auld, auld story
O' hoo the Union brocht
Puir Scotland into being
As a country worth a thocht.
England, frae whom a; blessings flow
What could we dae withoot ye? do
Then dinna threep it doon oor throats force
As gin we e'er could doot ye!
My feelings lang wi' gratitude
Ha'e been sae sairly harrowed
That dod! I think it's time
The claith was owre the parrot! cloth
Tell me o' Scottish enterprise
And canniness and thrift,
And hoo we're baith less Scots and mair
Than ever under George the fifth,
And hoo to 'wider interests'
Oor ain we sacrifice
And yet tine naething by it lose
As aye the parrot cries.
Syne gie's a chance to think it oot then
Aince we're a' weel awaur o't,
For, losh, I think it's time
The claith was owre the parrot!
Tell me o' love o' country
Content to see't decay,
And ony ither paradox
Ye think o' by the way.
I doot it needs a Hegel
Sic opposites to fuse;
Oor education's failin'
And canna gie's the views
That were peculiar to us
Afore our vision narrowed
And gar'd us think it time made
The claith was owre the parrot!
A parrot's weel eneuch at times enough
But whiles we'd leifer hear rather

CREDITS TO HUGH MACDAIRMID

Such A Parcel Of Rogues In A Nation
By Robert Burns, 1791
Fareweel to our Scottish fame,
Fareweel our ancient glory;
Fareweel ev'n to the Scottish name,
Sae fam'd in martial story.
Now Sark rins over Solway sands,
An' Tweed rins to the ocean,
To mark where England's province stands-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!
What force or guile could not subdue,
Thro' many warlike ages,
Is wrought now by a coward few,
For hireling traitor's wages.
The English stell we could disdain,
Secure in valour's station;
But English gold has been our bane-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!
O would, orI had seen the day
hat Treason thus could sell us,
My auld grey head had lien in clay,
Wi' Bruce and loyal Wallace!
But pith and power, till my last hour,
I'll mak this declaration;
We're bought and sold for English gold-Such
a parcel of rogues in a nation!

Such A Parcel Of Rogues In A Nation
By Robert Burns, 1791
Fareweel to our Scottish fame,
Fareweel our ancient glory;
Fareweel ev'n to the Scottish name,
Sae fam'd in martial story.
Now Sark rins over Solway sands,
An' Tweed rins to the ocean,
To mark where England's province stands-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!
What force or guile could not subdue,
Thro' many warlike ages,
Is wrought now by a coward few,
For hireling traitor's wages.
The English stell we could disdain,
Secure in valour's station;
But English gold has been our bane-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!
O would, orI had seen the day
hat Treason thus could sell us,
My auld grey head had lien in clay,
Wi' Bruce and loyal Wallace!
But pith and power, till my last hour,
I'll mak this declaration;
We're bought and sold for English gold-Such
a parcel of rogues in a nation!

http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/64297.html

IT'S LONG OVERDUE.... ALBA A CHAOIDH!

Does this former alcoholic Communist renegade really believe those who love our country are saft; or just plain daft?
There has only one country on this island ever been attacked in recent history by what this renegade would regards as terrorists. England was attacked pre-war by bombs placed in Post Box's in the Midlands; and later Post War, by the Ira and later still, by English home bred Muslim terrorists when bombing London.

national security...
either London is part of Scotland... (which would take a bit of creative geography) and yes without a military you'd have huge problems... or its not, and basically you are Ireland... which the average islamic terrorist would start looking for somewhere east of Nova Scotia... now considering how helpful the English were when asking about Scotland, when I drove around your island, I doubt that anybody south of Hadrian's wall would bother to ease their search...

as far as running the military bases out of Scotland...

before you close them down, you MIGHT want to consider the economic impact... I had a buddy that married a spanish girl when he was stationed at Torrejon AB in Spain... the spaniards closed the base and he transferred to where I was stationed... 2 years later he and his wife went back to her "home" and walked around the town... 2/3 of the shops that they frequented when they were courting were closed... boarded up... gone... is Spain better off, I dont know...

The Phillipines have had similar issues Clark AB & Subic Bay, they never considered the economic hole left in their local economies.

the FACT is Military bases pump billions of dollars (pounds, pesos, whatever) every year into local economies... yes, there are behavioral issues as there tend to be with 18-21 year olds with a pocket full of coin... but you can usually deal with that...

consider very carefully the "rash" decision of booting military bases... once they are gone... they dont come back real quickly....

There were German U boats prowling Scottish coasts during World War II or did that escape your notice? What makes you think Scotland wouldn't have been invaded if England had been? None of you seems to know any real history: it's all emotion, socialist cant, mistruths, half-truths, and damned lies that you take as fact.

The enemy is islamic insurgency, not the Labour Party. Get that through your heads.

187. E. Smith, Texas / 1:38pm 27 Nov 2006

the orginal redneck term was snobbery slander for immigrant irish-scots who were forabily rurally based. now it takes on a different meaning, more commercial if you like. similiar to toonsers/tuechters, but in a more cruel sense. For you to put it bluntly we are all `a bunch of rednecks` is proberly quite a ignorant comment. `yanks` simply loosely refer to northern/southerm americans during the civil war period. and is nothing slanderous.

Anyone slating america will know it is in jest. Also the fact america descended from Scots & irish, so by insulting our descednets in your country, you are in fact insulting your own.

BTW you dont really have a right to insult our ancestors, as my garden dyke is older than your entire country. (jest of course) therefore we havent had the chance to create a name for US immigrants here.

cheers,

Online Daily Mail today....

"68 per cent of English want independence from Scotland"

Reid's in for a lamping from both sides of the border.....

How right you are, Mike. They hate our Trident system that has been protecting them for decades, and they bitch about it incessantly, but don't they just love the money that the US presence brings in! And the tourist dollars, which they reach for with greedy hands while taking every opportunity to castigate the country that sends the most visitors to them.

Scotland, a tiny country, much-divided along political lines, with a population not even reaching the level of any major US city-- what a joke. For your information, 500 Scottish soldiers can't even be felt among the hundreds of thousands of troops in Iraq. They could all pull out tomorrow and nobody would miss them. And if you're too stupid to see what the real threat to your security is-- namely, muslim radicalism, then God help you.

Divided we fall....sad
United we stand...takes compromise
which one is more democratic...hmmmm

Loon in Aberdeen:

"Yankee" was first a term given in Revolution War times to the American colonists.

By the time of the US Civil War, "Yankee" referred to anyone north of the Mason-Dixon line, which is the Pennsylvania-Maryland border. Southerners called themselves "Confederates." That regional definition of Yankee persists to the present day. Since I'm from New York but live in the south, I'm a Yankee. And thank God, say I.

BUT: "Yank" is a term given to any American soldier or tourist or American in general from any place in the US, by the rest of the English speaking world. They like to hate Yanks, but they love our money when it flows their way, and think that it's our job to keep them safe and sound from scary people like Germans, Soviets, and islamic terrorists.

The Scots appear to think that their country is as large as Alaska and a main player on the world stage, when in fact you could drop all of Scotland somewhere in the United States, either population- or geography-wise and nobody'd even notice.

Martha thanks for revealing your true colours. Now why don't you go and find an American news site to pontificate on? Seeing as how you hate the Scots why come onto the Scotsman website?

All good knock about stuff. But judging by another Scotsman article that puts the SNP only 5% ahead of Labour the truth is you don't have the guts to go for independance!

Martha, I'm with you on the Islamic issue but you have picked up on a mistake one of the nationalists spouted earlier that i had already corrected. He stated that there are 500 Scottish troops in Iraq. This is incorrect, he refers to the Scottish regiments only. there are far more, many thousands of Scottish troops in the Brit forces and many of them are serving in Iraq & Afghanistan. They would be missed because like the the rest of the Brit forces they are some of the very best soldiers in the world

#228 I wouldnt have fancied the Germans chances if they had, do you!
Seriously you have to realise the stuff thats coming out of John Reid is complete Bilge, for a start stating that Scotland would have problems keeping terrorists and immigrants from over running the border at Gretna Green doesnt really say much about English security, if they managed to get into England in the first place, (think about that)
The real enemy is not islamic ensurgency (Im not supporting islamic ensurgency), that is a problem, but the rela enemy is the corrupt politicians and establishment, that twist and bend the truth to suite there own needs

#37 - socialmedic, USA - "I expect Amerians to be shallow ignorant and clueless..."

And I feel sorry for you for that, mate. You should perhaps get some therapy. Xenophobia is treatable. Of course, the patient has to first be willing. And at this stage, you may not be judgeing from your rant. When you predicate your arguments with a premise such as this bit of illogic, you can't expect to be taken seriously. If you think you've somehow risen above America, then perhaps you do belong in your own country. Sadly, if pressed to do so, you would perhaps claim as the same sovereign mine as well were I pressed in like fashion - Scotland. I say sadly, because I would not want again to share a nation with you! Further, you have confused pride with arrogance. Remember it is Scotland the Brave not Scotland the Arrogant!

235. Martha / 4:22pm 27 Nov 2006 The Scots appear to think that their country is as large as Alaska and a main player on the world stage, when in fact you could drop all of Scotland somewhere in the United States, either population- or geography-wise and nobody'd even notice.
***
I appreciate your defination. it was interesting.
but not notice scotland dissappear off the map?
proberly not, but thats your attitude. act now think later. the British legal system, population and language formed your country. but thanks for your input, if your werent interested you wouldnt be commenting. simple.

if there is one thing thats evident form this debate, its definatly stirred up pride and nationalisum.

If so many people care for it, why doesnt it happen?
politics sucks big time, it should be privitised.
I might even welcome terrorists, they seem to be the only ones that make things happen.
#37 could be only known as a social terriorist, hes pointing out a generalisation of what everyone thinks anyway

#227 Scotland doesnt really have much in the way of 'foreign' bases on its soil
Discounting Faslane and the main RAF airfields, your left with army barracks that are part of the fabric of the country. No one is saying that they will close, Scotland will still need the armed forces. What Scotland doesnt need are expensive bits of kit such as the Trident Nuclear Subs. The post independance Scotland's military will be compreable to that of either Finland or Norway, or even Canada. All fine models to follow, none of them Nuclear, but well respected in the world

#239.

truth bending and vote grabbing.
thats politics for you. its basically an ever advanced method of kepping everyone happy.

lets face it everyone is never happy.
one persons voice seems to be the pinnicle of its majority. since when have we to respect the views of one group over another people. Cant blame scotland wanting independance, who wants a multi-cultural society? half my family are from different countried, i have travelled far and between. what did inotice? when politics doesnt work.
I shouldnt have politics shoved down my throat, bent from the truth, `guided` or focused or fudged. i want only the truth. good solid men like tommy sheriden, regardless of his personal life, took the tumble. why? politics.

I don't want Separation - never did....

I want a divorce - as soon as possible.

243. Edward / 4:38pm 27 Nov 2006
couldnt say it better.

Scotlands forces are world reknowned, as well as age old and respected.

Joining up regiments? purpose? none, point? none. penny pinching? yes. Another example of labours distarous non-welcome polices and effects.

These guys in charge (reid, brown, blair) supopsed to be at least, surrounded by experts. one would think, but I doubt it ever more each day.

#231, #235
Martha your such an arrogant idiot!
Your obviously not quite there in the Geography dapartment. Just in case you didnt know Scotland has the same population size as Finland, Norway, Denmark, Ireland, Jordan, Kyrgyzstan & Slovakia.,
Its has a bigger population than the likes of Bosnia, Croatia, Iceland, New Zealand & Singapore.
But then again your American, so no surprise there.
Scotland has no prentions of being the biggest and best in the World, there are enough ego maniacs as it is.
Scots have always been well respected in the world, not by blowing there trumpet, but by getting the job done through hard work, something that cant be said for some other 'larger' countries.

Has anybody thought of what independence would do for housing and the dole queue in Scotland. Hundreds of thousands of Scots moving north to avoid rule by Westminster would surely cause chaos. All the new houses could not be built overnight and prices would rocket. Where would the jobs come from for all the Scots desperate to be ruled from Edinburgh? House prices in England may fall a little on the other hand and some job opportunities would come up.

#247 - Edward
"Martha your such an arrogant idiot!...But then again your American, so no surprise there."

Edward, who's being arrogant? Also, you have a fellow xeno:

#37 - socialmedic, USA - "I expect Amerians to be shallow ignorant and clueless..."

See #240 for a response.

By the way Edward, you used the possessive "your" instead of the being "you're". Advise: When accusing someone of being an idiot, you should avoid looking like one.

PS - My post is not a defense of Martha's position. It is that of logical consistency and humility.

Edward, you should stop the comedy spelling now, those of a non-English mother tongue will be getting confused.

"Labour paints doom-laden picture of Scotland under SNP"

of course they would, not much of a party conference where they all line up to dismiss any party that might actually offer a challenge to them (at last..). Shows up their lack of real policies! Running scared as when they know that they got into government with the Labour stranglehold of Scotland, the map looks very blue when Scotland is taken away.....

#249, Im big enough to apologise for generalising all americans. Im well aware that Martha is not like all americans

Never in the field of verbal conflict has so much utter sh**e been spoken by so few. If these so called educated men actually believe the rubbish they are talking, the sooner we leave the union the better it will be for all concerned. The English should be backing the SNP instead of trying to destroy it. If we gain our independence we will be saving the English from a fate worse than death. 'Prime Minister Reid

251.

Re stated thats...

"SNP paints doom-laden picture of England under Labour"

:)

Don't get your knicks in a twist over Martha, she's an old biddy with not much to say other than orally excrete the fabricated red white and blue BS she's been raised on.

Martha, there's a reason they call it the American Dream. You have to be asleep to believe it.

Now, away ye go.

Martha, Florida is not really part of the real south, it is populated by a bunch of Jewish princesses.

Don't know what's sadder,a senior member of the British cabinet spouting this infantile nonsense or the fact that he seems to think Scots are too stupid to know any better.

Reiver. Don't you get, it's not Labour who wants independence, as Labour will find it almost impossible to get in in England, and the government will no longer be in the majority down south, it's the Tories. The Tories win on all fronts, they are likely to be in power in England for a very long time, they get rid of the only people that could stop that, and they say they can bring down the taxes, bingo!

Martha:
"The Scots appear to think that their country is as large as Alaska and a main player on the world stage, when in fact you could drop all of Scotland somewhere in the United States, either population- or geography-wise and nobody'd even notice."

"Scotland, a tiny country, much-divided along political lines, with a population not even reaching the level of any major US city-- what a joke. For your information, 500 Scottish soldiers can't even be felt among the hundreds of thousands of troops in Iraq. They could all pull out tomorrow and nobody would miss them. And if you're too stupid to see what the real threat to your security is-- namely, muslim radicalism, then God help you."

Are you serious? What is your bloody point here? If you think Scotland is so insignificant, then why are you wasting your time on this thread? Besides Yank, any nation that wishes to remove itself from the clutches of England has my full support! Remember our own history?

Additionally, tourists aren’t donating their money out of a sense of generosity to their host nations. If you feel that way, then you are no doubt an Ugly American.

Further, you mind your mouth about slamming Scots soldiers! They are bleeding alongside ours as cousins. You forget that and you might as well be shot for treason. It doesn’t matter whether or not one stands up for this bloody war in the Mid-east, anyone (be they Scot or otherwise) who attempts to tarnish the proud soldiers of Scotland is out of line.

Martha. You need to read 'The Scottish Enlightenment', sub-titled 'The Scots invention of the modern world' by Arthur Herman. This little nation punches way above its weight when it wants to.

In the headlong rush to what might now seem the possibility of Independance, do not ignore the "Cuckoo in the Scottish Nest" namely the Fibdems, who, since the inception of the Scottish Parliament have excercised a totally disproportionate amount of power in relation to their share of the popular vote.

No doubt should the SNP be successful in the May election, these cherry picking carrion will seek to continue to lay claim to the successes, and duck their responsibility for the clangers, as has been their wont, while in coalition.

If Independance is to have any chance of success then these "Fence Sitters" must be deprived of this priveleged position, which affords them all the glory, but none of the responsibility.

So come May Don't vote Fibdem either, and send them into the wilderness alongside Their Labour coalitionist buddies, where they rightly belong given their participation in and contribution to our desperate performance since devolution.

#260 Andrew Allan - Martha will not recognise the great impact Scots have had on the world no matter how great the evidence. She has some sort of agenda based on a deep-seated hostility towards Scots for some unexplained reason.

Martha, why don't you explain what your problem is?

199 Echelon_X. I have woken up and so has Scotland. By 'our' troops I meant just that. Yes they are Scots who 'chose' to join the 'British' army. That was what was available to them when they joined. With Independence Scotland will have its own military (like it or not) and Scottish soldiers serving in illegal wars for England under the name of Britain can take the opportunity to leave the 'British' army to form the new Scottish Services. (If they so chose.) Those who would prefer to remain in what will no longer be a 'British' army can remain in the 'English/Welsh/N. Irish' army and take the chance to die for the Labour lie.
It is a pity when writing general comments that it is those who seem to be the most intelligent who need to have what everyone else understands the meaning of; broken down, disected and corrected in order to take it in. I may not have put it over well enough for you, but I am sure that other readers will have taken what I meant by "OURS" in its true context. What remains when "the divorce" comes will soon become a "4th rate peacekeeping force with no control on anything"! as well. Whatever the Scottish Military force finally becomes, we WILL be able to afford it. I don't think the English forces will have the same financial support that they once took for granted by stealing from Scotland and Labour, Conservatives and Lib Dem's will all be aware of that as well. England needs Scotland more than Scotland EVER needed them.
I have noticed that you are very persitent in always trying to have the last word. Well I've said what I have to say on this matter; as I am entitled to do. You may wish to pick me up some more, but this topic is done for me. I've voiced my opinion just as you voice yours. Let's now just wait and see what will be. It is time.

America won its independence from London 230 years ago, isn't it about time we did?

#264 - HIS, Edinburgh

Here, here!

The Guzz, most will stay with the British army, because it will still be that, and will pay better, and England don't need us , and we don't need them.

Since I live with the descendants of Scotch-Irish immigrants (which is how they are termed here) and married one of them, I think I have a good grasp of how much they have and have not contributed to American society, economics, and science. They have been definitely and disproportionately represented in the latter two, but this is not the case today-- you have some very, very significant social problems that you aren't addressing.

This thread also, like every other thread in this newspaper site, constantly dumps on America and Americans. I'm astonished at the level of ignorance about the world's superpower. You know far less about us than we do about you. Scotland is a nice place to visit, but...(Americans can finish this sentence. It's a cliche here.)

The Guzz. ...and breathe out

266 Andrew Allan. Without Scotland there will be no Britain (as a single nation that is) and we may struggle at first to adapt to our new found position in the world, but it won't be long until we find our feet. The English army will HAVE to pay more in order to recruit. It won't be 'Scottish' soldiers doing the dying for them. It will be those Scots who choose to fight for lying leaders that will be dying for them. But then history shows that there has always been elements of Scots who would fight for England. However, on reflection; most of them did so at their Lairds calling. This time there will be the freedom of choice and my bet is that with Scotland's proud military history that the vast majority of her native sons and daughters will choose to represent their own country. Scotland. It is time.

Echelon_X. Breathing out.

Okay, look at facts. Your population is a little over five million souls. You have an enormous sea border to protect relative to your population. You do not have much arable land; most of it is fit only for raising livestock. You are not self-sufficient in energy. I will guess that about 25 percent of your population is on the dole in some way, which is a large drain on your budget. England alone is ten times larger than you in population and therefore in wealth.

How on earth do you propose to raise and maintain an army/navy/air force that can deal with a determined and overpowering foe? All the bombast in the world doesn't make a shred of difference when it comes to war. You can be as proud as punch of being Scots, and why shouldn't you be? but that doesn't win wars or earn the billions you would need to defend yourselves without England's level of support. You aren't connected with brutal reality in any way.

And relative to 250,000 American troops in Iraq, what are 500 Scots troops? It's a drop in the bucket. So I'm again stating fact and again being castigated for it, as if I've made some outrageous and insulting claim. Many of you don't have a realistic attitude toward your size, your population, your true place in the world, and especially how much it takes to make and build a nation. Yes, we won our independence from Britain in 1783, after nearly eight years of a long, difficult war with many American lives lost and a great deal of hardship. I doubt you're up to that, if what I read on this thread is any indication of your will and stamina.

#5. ECHELON_X
‘Who would bomb NZ? The French Secret Service already did.’
Yes, it was the French Government that ordered the bombing of the Rainbow Warrior in Auckland and although this was definitely a terrorist act was the French Government a terrorist organisation?
At the time Margaret Thatcher didn’t give a toss and condemn France nor speak truthfully on the matter.
Have times changer this was proof that Governments are extremely pragmatic and self serving.

When Americans are slammed by others here, most of us defend, not by putting down Scots, but by reasoning with them. What you've done here is insulting and it is unwarranted. Also, you are mistaken about what the rest of the world knows of the so called superpower. Besides, since you've brought the point up, what do we as the world's superpower contribute to the world? Are you going to traipse out that boring claim of yours about tourism profits? That was dealt with in an earlier post. Cast a gaze at what damage we cause the world compared to the good. I won't list the items here, because it would take too long, but you can use your imagination.

Additionally, being married to a Scot descendant doesn’t arm you against being a xenophobe. That’s like saying, “I’m not racist, I have black friends”, while peering through the peepholes of a pointy sheet. Your pro-American, anti-Scot stance is obvious regardless of you matrimonial choices and is non-insulating.

If you’ve nothing constructive to say, leave. All you are doing is proving to the rest of the world that we are like the ill-spoken and ill-mannered Pres. Bush (which many of us aren’t). You undermine our efforts to dispel that belief.

Richard, West Lothian: You have to have a plan before you embark on nationhood. It simply does not matter that Scotland's financial industry is eight percent of its GDP. You're competing against: China, India, Switzerland, the USA, Russia, England, Germany, and France, to name your largest financial competitors. You don't feed yourself as a nation as we do and as China now does. You don't have to maintain an army, navy or air force, yet you glibly talk about raising one as if it's easy and inexpensive.

You have a large (relative to your overall population) surly, idle population of poor and marginally educated that you'll have to do something with or they will bankrupt you.

Your Mr. John Reid is absolutely correct in his statements, but the rest of you don't find it in you to deal with reality. You will be the losers if the SNP finally does win freedom from England. It's simply not worth the breach with your other British entities, but I fear that no matter what, you'll rush headlong into it, and over the cliff into destitution and possibly even civil war.

#267 Martha.
The pure Term Scotch/Irish refers to those who firstly 'planted' from Scotland to Ulster, and then as a second step moved to America.
The Term 'Hill Billy' is another less-affectinate label for these people who were mostly subsistance farmers.
All other Scots who emigrated directly or via Canada are not part of this group. Same goes for the Irish.
Secondly we are well aware of our own problems here - you are no doubt well aware of post industrial America - the 'rust belt'. Even without social commentators such as Michael Moore letting us know whats really going on, or TV appeals for money and food for poor whites (yes and this USA a first world country we are talking about) I would please ask you to sort out your own house first.
I'd be more worried about your inablity to elect a president who actualy knows how to tie his own laces.
But the GOP and their supporters can put up a chimp for president and get him elected as long as he's 'one of their own'.

Fiction in Ventura: spoken like a true addle-pated wishy washy liberal.

#277 is to Martha!

Being that I am from the U.S. and happen to belong nominally (my State's voting laws don't allow Independents-those without paty affiliation from voting in primary elections- to vote in primary elections so I am forced to choose a party in order to have any sort of minute influence) to the party of the current sitting President, I feel compelled to give you all some good news. There is growing disgust and anger within the Republican party because many people feel George Bush is a Charletan and a betrayel to the party values. He is hardly a Republican. There is a move in the Republican Party especially after the Congressional elections we just had in November to move quickly away from the false pretentions of Tricky Dick Cheney and Bush. Hopefully people in the New Labour Party can form a bit of resolve too and leave Tony Blair and Jack McConnel in the dust. Reforming the New Labour Party would probably include rejecting the current policy of name-calling and scaremongering. From this side of the Pond, we are sort of wondering at this point whether New Labour is really the New Tory Party. They don't really care about Labour Unions at all and have seemingly given up on socialism. Maybe the Scottish Tories will grow a backbone, separate from the English Tories and truly help Scottish business. I think Labour is scared of an English Devolved Parliament because once the English have their own Pretend Parliament, then they will begin to question the need for Westminster. Maybe the English part of the Tory Party will decide to break away from the Scottish part of the Tory Party upon the creation of a Devolved English Parliament. Rabbie Burns looks more and more credible all the time in his money for peerages commentary from the 1700's, in that New Labour is acting the same way today.

Although I am a staunch anti-Unionist, I do feel sort of bad for Jack McConnel. Daily, one sees displayed the internal battle within the man, in the media, between true in

#280 Martha - Unable to address the points in #277, eh? What I've levelled against you is not wishy nor is it washy. And I'm not clear how it can be seen as liberal as well. Again, unable to argue. That is likely because you are poorly educated. So much for a superpower.

Martha, this newspaper allows for healthy debate and everyone should be allowed their opinion regardless how inane it is, so keep debating.

Robbie, it was all said pretty tongue in cheek... I also said B&Q would have reason to bomb Sweden...I.e. IKEA. Thanks also, I know France is not a terrorist state

Dear Scots,

On behalf of the articulate and well-mannered Americans, I apologise for the likes of Martha-the-opposite. She knows not what she does. She has been prey, falling victim to the mighty forces of our brainwashing leaders. Please forgive her and her fellow weak-minded clan, even it you reject her. I join you!

Fiction

274 Richard. Granted i never made this clear in my initial posting on the VC analogy, however I clarified it later. The point was directed at individual members of the public, not the SNP as a PP. You and others put forward good arguement for Independence when the emotional issues are removed. You do however also put forward week arguements and very wild assumptions and what are often offensive and disrespectful to some within the union we currently live. I don't necessarily mean you personally.

#285 - Sambo:
"Martha, this newspaper allows for healthy debate and everyone should be allowed their opinion regardless how inane it is, so keep debating."

Martha has not been debating. She's been bashing. There is a difference. You two should take a philosophy class, especially in logic. That would help tremendously.

Five long, cold months until the election for the third Scottish Parliament in 300 years and, thanks to the double act of Donald Dewar and Alex Salmond, it's a wee pretendy model regional parliament of the European Union, bound by the Scotland Act 1998 to obey all EU laws, even more so than most member states.

Get real, you SNP supporters, and stop boring us all with your pipe dream of an "Independent Scotland".

"Everything must change so that things remain the same."

And it will be the poor, and those in debt, so suffer from the interim years of upheaval.

Bread and butter issues are what matter, now and after next May.

#291 Fiction, I guess it just went over your head.

Martha, you are quite mad and in some cases it would be argued by most ill informed, ignorant and offensive. That said there has been just a couple of areas I would agree with you on.
However, regardless of all that you are taking a lot of stick on here due to your strong opinions. I have to say that you are at least demonstrating by your participation in this debate that you have an opinion, right or wrong and you are interested enough in not only US affairs but affairs of another country. In the UK we often mock the many Americans who seem to know nothing of the world beyond the local mall. You at least are engaging in this debate for which you should be congratulated. We may be compelled to take the p*** or make hard comment on your posts but please don't let that put you off. I myself have very strong views on certain subjects and admit to be stubborn at times. I have learnt some interesting things in my debates on here of late, not all i agree with but i know more about opposing opinions and what they base their convictions on. For that reason alone it is healthy to stay on here and give your opinion. Everyone, even YOU Martha should be free to state your opinion.
Now go get some ammo and blatt off some rounds.

Martha can you feel the Irony of a GOP apologist like yourself siding with a Commie Chameleon like John Reid. Tee-Totalitarains?

#294 Sambo,

Were you being factitious? If you were, then it did not go over my head; I caught it, but wasn’t entirely sure. If this is the case, then only Martha needs a lesson in philosophy and I sincerely apologise to you, mate. If you are familiar with my posts, you know where my heart lays.

#273
You seem to be very ill informed Martha, either that or your chip on your shoulder is weighing you down
Here are the actual facts, that you seem to be not aware off :
Unemployment is actually around 6% in Scotland, not the 25% that you suggested
Scotlands coastline is 1000 kms, which accounts for 69% of the UK total
Believe it or not Population size has nothing to do with wealth, example India has a bigger poulation than the USA, would you say India is wealthier than the USA, by your reckoning it is!
Scotland is self sufficient in energy, producing 84665 thousand tonnes of Oil in 2005, 79200 thousand tonnes of Gas in 2005
Number of troops in Iraq is not actually relevant to this debate, as it is a war that was based on false premise, but it should be noted that there are far more than 500 Scottish Troops in theatre in Iraq
Who is this overpowering foe that you seem to think would invade Scotland?
Scotland currently contributes £ 27 Billion to the defence costs in the UK, so I think we have that covered, in addition we will not be saddled with the US built Trident or any US built replacement for TRident as its simply not needed

295 Richard, I know you're not that dense mate, so stop acting like it. I was clearly (in my opinion) talking about general conversation, not your last posts with economic stats. I'm talking about the English bashing kind of thing. It is not productive. You need to think that those of your own opinion do not need persuading, you have the same views. But especially people who are undecided on independence, many are put off by the 'emotional' even biggoted statements that tarnish all English people with the same brush etc. We have a vote in May, use that time to engage with the ones that are undecided or sceptical and get them on side through balanced facts or opinion. It doesn't have to be proven fact, this is a prospective new venture for Scotland so there are many many unknowns. Accept them as that and recognise potential problems. Do you understand what I am trying to get across? I am not saying that in a smart way, genuinely do you see where I'm coming from. I can honestly say that i see more value in indepence than i did a couple of weeks ago. I am not happy with the labour govt however i am not remotely impressed with the opposition to-date. I genuinely am undecided.

Actually John Reid does possibly have one claim which could happen.After independence a lot of people might want to come here in preference to staying in England ! Are these the" illegal "Immigrants he refers to?
273 Martha. You demonstrate the only failing democracy could ever possess.Everybody gets a vote,irrespective of whether they are capable of using it sensibly or not.
The size of a nation means absolutely nothing.You could be a banana republic and provided you have considerably more bananas than you have mouths to feed you will be an exporter and have a trade surplus and have everything your heart desires.
Eire Norway Switzerland all have small populations and have the highest standard of living anywhere.Maybe you thought it was the good ol USA because George Bush said so?You are quite some way down the league table actually.
287 Your appology is graciously accepted and of course no blame attached to you or any other USA citizens for that matter.Every nation has them ! WE certainly have had our fair share of them,in fact some of them are in governmnet here!
Nevertheless we struggle on.
The price of freedom is that you afford everyone the right and opportunity to speak their mind. Its not your fault that certain people have nothing to contribute,but that does not stop them doing so!

john reid stop pretending to be martha.

278. Martha / 7:23pm 27 Nov 2006
“You're (Scotland) competing against: China, India, Switzerland, the USA, Russia, England, Germany, and France, to name your largest financial competitors. You will be the losers if the SNP finally does win freedom from England.”
It is asked over and over again - why Martha should Scotland be so different, from all other small prosperous sovereign nations? New Zealand is miles from markets and TRADES (not always competes) well or as well as the EU and USA (those bastions of Free Trade - not) -allows it.
Your final point, “you'll rush headlong into it, and over the cliff into destitution and possibly even civil war.”
DESTITUTION and CIVIL WAR plus terrorist attacks and armed guards at the borders. Honest Martha I’d never thought of all that. New Zealand will most likely be happy to take all the Scottish refugees.

#293 Dont worry Fiction, hopefully she has gone to get another brown bag from the nearest liquor store
oops Im generalising again
Anyway we all know she is out of her tree
We welcom good debate from anywhere in the world and from any political leaning

#301 morris

Right said!

#302 noremac

John Reid? I was suspecting Martha was Tony Blair!

#298 Fiction
Your a gracious fellow Fiction, but Martha should be able to spout off, how else could we keep swapping opinions.

martha stop pretending that you know what your talking about.

#303 Very true, Scotlands, nearest neighbours of Norway, Denmark and Ireland are all of similar population size and all seem to be doing rather well
It was disapointing for John Reid, whom I took for an inteligent person to come out with the family thing, as if it was going to make any difference. After all Scot's have family all over the world, not just in England, and that has not prooved a hinderance, so not sure why he came out with it. Im of the opinion that he was told to say that, by London Spin doctors

#304 Edward

I do apologise for coming out earlier with fangs showing, but I like you don't want to lumped in with the idiots merely because my parents brought me here. I never met any disrespect to you, you must know that from my posts. Martha unfortunately has little appreciation for the peoples of other nations. That has sadly become the American way of late. It' sad considering our analog of foreign settlers. I hope she gets what she's looking for, but sadly she probably can't say what that is.

There are Americans with big hearts. We just aren't the ones in power at the moment.

#306 Hope your joking, we dont mind good debate here as long as it has at least some grain of constructive input and fact. Opinions are good as long as they make sense, Martha's was completly the opposite

#306 - Sambo

True, true. And I must admit it has been a bit fun watching her flounder. Martha, please come back and enlighten us, will you? I'm feeling bored!

A vote for the SNP is a vote for gypsies.
We have enough gypsies in this country, lets not vote for independence and open the flood gates for more to come in.

#309 I appreciate that Fiction, no need to apologise, understand where your coming from.
I have a good friend in Long Island and we have talked about, how some Americans are not aware of the world beyond the borders, there are still a few, that consider Canada as a very foreign place.
Those that travel are enlightened, those who dont arent. I think that due to the large size of the USA, there hasnt really been the need to travel. I do know that there are Americans who do care and hopefully it wont be long hwne you can make it a hat trick, by following the success in the 2 houses

5 Echelon.
The French secret service bombed the Rainbow Warrior, It just happened to be in Auckland, they would have gone for it no matter where it was berthed. It was Greenpeace they were after NOT New Zealand.

237. friendofgordon, birmingham
“the truth is you don't have the guts to go for independence!”

Sadly you may be right. Perhaps those for Scottish sovereignty will have take a few tips from the ‘Witnesses’ and start chapping doors and spreading the true gospel of freedom.

Labour must be desperate to alienate so many Scottish voters.

#314 Edward - "...you can make it a hat trick, by following the success in the 2 houses"

We shoot with that goal in mind! Our wave of Nationalism (i.e. Martha's spell, from which she is inflicted) makes us a bit myopic. I offer an open challenge to all those (American citizens and otherwise), tell what good comes to the world from America as superpower? If it means stomping illegally on soveriegn nations on the larger scale and stomping on the hearts of Scots ala Martha here on this thread, then it's no good at all. I do travel and like Echelon_X have learnt to appreciate the positions of others (but unlike him, I do support Scots detachment from England).

If the SNP are serious about an independant Scotland, I would want to see a proper funded immigration policy placed before the electorate beforehand with VERY TOUGH measures to deal with the problem.

If they can't back up their words with actions then we should all be aware before we vote them in.

Then again, the same applies to all other political parties..

315. Wee Shuggy, NZ
It was Greenpeace the French secret were after NOT New Zealand.

Good point and quite correct.

313 Apparently they have brown bags in Glasgow also !

321 Morris

After this post, I'm fetching my own brown bag!

As an ex-pat I would love to see an independant Scotland but alas I'm afraid it is merely a pipe dream. I left when its industry was crumbling as many did before and after me.
The Scottish people have grown too used to the government taking care of them to ever aquire an independand spirit.

Martha - cheers for the bit about us not feeding ourselves. That was a cracker! Funny how over 50% of locally-produced food in the entire UK is sourced from Scotland. Not only do we feed ourselves, but we're generous enough to feed our southern neighbours while we're at it thank you very much. We might not have a McDonalds or a Burger King every 300 yards on our horse-drawn cart-tracks, but that doesn't mean we'll starve.

323 Sambo:

Is this because times are so different now? I ask this, because Scotland has survived on their own (in defence of their own) under severely adverse conditions in the past. Do you think that Scots can’t restore crumbling industries on their own? It isn’t like England did this for them. The Scots I’ve known (a huge minority, granted) seem more than capable.

Be wary of the scare tactics being used by Labour. Such tactics have plagued American politics--to the obvious detriment of the country. Don't fall for it, Scotland. Labour is to fear, not the SNP.

267. Martha / 6:57pm 27 Nov 2006
It is a great shame that any of the Scotsman’s forums should become acrimonious or spiteful and really quite illogical. Scots or Kiwis or anyone generally do not dislike Americans per se. Americans may at timed be loud and seem somewhat arrogant but they are also very friendly and very good with the compliments - I used to think all American tourists had completed a ‘Dale Carnegie Course.’ But there are terribly people in the USA as there are in Scotland and all countries. I am a Glaswegian domicile in New Zealand but that does not mean that I welcome with open arms every Scot I meet. They could be violent bampots or neds who have chosen to ignore education and dwell on installing fear (oh no we don‘t let them into NZ.)
But my point of contention with Martha is the statement, “You know far less about us (Americans) than we do about you.”
This is without doubt very, very wrong. Most people, Scots included, know quite a lot (not everything but quite a lot) about America and its people. Americans even highly educated ones are sometimes unbelievably ignorant of Scotland, and the meaning of Britain and the UK.
Martha I’m sure you have friend who still think of England as being an island and for me whilst studying (history degree) and reading American history books, written by university academics was quite amazed at the errors concerning the terms Britain, England and the UK. Everyone from Adam Smith, David Hume, James Mill and Robert Owen (Welsh) are considered English and monarchs from William the conqueror to ‘Good Queen Bess’ herself are considered as ruling Britain.
Error also appear on the internet but these can be corrected by a quick email.
If the average American makes an error or doesn’t comprehend matters out with their borders - so be it - why should they care - but honestly I’m talking of writers with PhDs and years of studious learning and they still get it wrong. Scotland

324 Daviebee - Don't forget our numerous Starbuck's vendors as well. Some have drive throughs. I think they can accomodate your horse-drawn carts, but I'm not sure.

PS - Martha is crazy. You can't use facts to unhinge her arguments.

If Scotland does vote to leave the UK in May, it would be interesting to know the status of Scotland's membership of the European Union as an independent nation. I imagine as it is the United Kingdom as a whole and not Scotland as a nation that is a member of the EU, Scotland would not be a member and would need to apply to join the EU if it choose to establish itself separately from the UK. I wonder if England, Wales and Northern Ireland, that is to say the new three-nation UK, would use their veto to put a stop to Scotland's aspirations of joining the EU?

Something to think about.

326. Richard - Scots despise the "devolution industry" centred on 129 numpties and former town councillors who swan around in taxis and ministerial cars, using the public purse to speculate in Edinburgh's property market.

Imagine what the "independence industry" will be like.

328 Robbie - "...know quite a lot (not everything but quite a lot) about America and its people."

Even I at times am amazed at how little I know my county's people, especially when Marthas are running rampant here.

Also, you should be pleased to know that, as a philosophy major, we are taught that David Hume is Scots, not British. Further, there are lots of Americans who are aware of the tangential connections between England and Scotland. We who understand this appreciate it in light of or own connection with England that was severed not so long ago. Further, many of us do support Scots efforts to split away.

I personally know three families who are emmigrating to New Zealand this year from Scotland, one is my brother-in-law.
These are young people with good skills who want to make a better life for themselves and their children.
Why has Scotland failed them?

Fiction - various posts

It may surprise you to know that support for English independence is growing swiftly. Go and have a look at the comments board on yesterday's Daily Telegraph leader about the dissolution of the Union. The Scots are not the only ones that want out.

The best thing that the Scots could do to rid the English of this Labour Government is to vote SNP in May...... Come on Scotland, it's in your hands, if we had the chance we would vote for the SNP.

334 Joanna

Not surprised at all! I hope it continues and results in a sovereign nation once again. Alba gu brath!

PS - Gorgeous name. My first love was a Joanna...

333 Sambo

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.

I am not a Scot , English or even European. I am sure on thousand per cent - the Scots are better of all the spin and nonsense of Labour.

The English are ruled by The Sun and nobody could decide what's good or bad for this country.

You have your own accent, you are not as selfish as the English who tend to care for strayed dogs more than homeless people.

All the best for your new glorious Scotland

Fiction,

The fear in England is that Labour intend to carve us up into regions to appease the EU. A lot of English people do not want our country regionalised. If Scotland vote the SNP into power and the SNP win a referendum on Scottish independence - it is extremely unlikely that Labour will regain power in England.

I think it is time there was self governance for both countries before Labour completely ruin England.

PS: Never know anyone called Fiction before .... is it an American name?

331 Terry, independence will remove one wasteful layer of government, LONDON, and at least if they are in Edinburgh, we can all watch them like hawks!

I am enjoying reading the comments arising from appearance of this column. I am offering no opinion on the political content since I am far removed from the loop, however I am observing that John Reid, by his remarks as reported, is the instigater and the cause for the lengthy line up of Comments but Martha, dear Martha, who is obviously not the brightest star in the sky, has become the focal point in the discussion so to avoid further dissertation from her pen I suggest that further confrontation will continue to whet her appetite. Stop teasing her...unless the amusement is the purpose of the exercise.

#336 Fiction.
OK to quote JFK but try telling a young family to stick around and make it a great country. I come home every year because I love Scotland but (and I hate to quote Martha) it's a great place to visit but I could'nt live their anymore. I found everything in Scotland was double in price and some things triple.
This must be crippling to the average family. Perhaps it is the heavy taxation on almost everything. Food was exempt from VAT but was still double from what I pay in the US.

332. Fiction, Ventura -
“as a philosophy major, we are taught that David Hume is Scots, not British. Further, there are lots of Americans who are aware of the tangential connections between England and Scotland.”

Hi, I did not mean to insinuate that every American and every university lecturer in the United States makes these blunders - that would be a gross exaggeration. What I was relaying is that there are American, European history text books (and I’ll get round to referencing them) who confuse England and Britain and it is the academic credentials of those making these mistakes which amaze me. Many of them would not consider it important or argue that their meaning is clear, but it has been quite rewarding to see how quickly internet sites correct their mistakes.
My major was history and politics but did some philosophy papers as well - they were the only papers I sort of struggled with (awfy big words). I raise my hat to anyone filling their mind with philosophical writing (even from the Scottish Enlightenment worthies) Congrats.

#331 Typical viewpoint of someone who doesnt give a monkey's about his country. Instead of putting the Scottish parliament down, put your money where yr mouth is and stand for the Scottish Parliament and make that difference.
Its amazing you see ministers 'swanning' around in ministerial cars, what do you want them to do, take a bus? About time you grew up and realised what Scotland has is an opportunity of fulfilling herself as a nation. Believe it or not, regardless of what ever country you in, ministers are driven about in there ministerial cars, thats what happens in real life

When will these clowns understand that Independence does not equal an SNP government? Independence means we can choose any colour of government we choose, the SNP just gets us to that point.

340 Joanna:
“I think it is time there was self governance for both countries before Labour completely ruin England.”

I hear you and am with you. Your point is well taken. A proper separation of the present UK doesn’t only mean that Scotland becomes sovereign and, in the wake, simultaneously England is butchered. Heed must be taken in light of the fact that two nations are born: England and Scotland. And measures ought to be taken to ensure that England is protected from your legitimate worries and concerns. But remember this. England is almost universally recognisable as a nation under the UK (often these two titles are exclusively synonymous) and Scotland is often not recognised nor associated with the UK by those outside of the UK. Plus, it was England that absorbed (to cut to the chase here) Scotland. So sympathies and concerns tend to lie with Scotland.

In re: “PS: Never know anyone called Fiction before .... is it an American name?”

Fiction might as well be an American name, these days! But no, I am just a huge Buzzcocks fan and selected the posting name from their song Fiction Romance (familiar with it?). They are from Manchester, you know. My name is Brian. And I am please to make your acquaintance.

342 Virgil
"Stop teasing her...unless the amusement is the purpose of the exercise."

You are right here. But the humor break was too enticing.

343 Sambo
OK to quote JFK but try telling a young family to stick around and make it a great country. I come home every year because I love Scotland but (and I hate to quote Martha) it's a great place to visit but I could'nt live their anymore. I found everything in Scotland was double in price and some things triple.

The JFK quote was stated in tongue in cheek; was hoping to get a rile out of you. But you are right, I could not say that directly to those people. However, hasn’t Scotland been able to care for themselves in the past? Can’t they (you) solve the pricing problems? And any other difficulties? Could such problems be symptoms of strong English connections?

PS - Can't believe you managed a Martha quote. Hats off to you!

"My name is Brian. And I am please to make your acquaintance."

Likewise, Brian....

Well, I have sympathy with Scotland, as well ...... I was educated there for quite a few years and have many relations and friends in the Scottish borders. (Lovely part of the world btw).

If I was Scottish I would want more self determination for Scotland and not to be ruled by remote control from Westminster.

However, as it stands my interests lie primarily with England and I think this Labour Government will rue the day that it gave devolution to Scotland and did not allow England, as a country a vote on the same issue.

Martha, who said that independence for Scotland would lead to civil war (with England, I presume) is talking rubbish and only shows her ignorance of both countries.

350 Joanna

Agreed about Martha. I apologised for her earlier. She is plagued by the misconceptions propagated by our government. Civil war is one of the reasons why we can’t pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan, so we are told. And if it is true there, then it must obtain everywhere, so she must think.

And again, it would help Scotland for the good people of England to have a say in the border status of the UK, no doubt. I think most Scots understand this and see that they are not battling English subjects (hence no civil war possible here, Martha), rather it is a purely political battle with individuals in power and those aspiring to power. Those persons are the targets of ire. In this way, if English voices, such as yours could be heard as well, Scotland would definitely benefit.

You know the words to a song went like this "How are you gonna keep em down on the farm after they've seen Paree"
This would apply to most Scots who sailed or flew away to other corners of this planet.

Hey Fiction, why don't you ask Joanna for a date.

I would do just that Sambo, but like you sadly, I am away in another corner of this planet, perhaps even farther from England than you.

Hey Joanna you can dream can't ya.

Tom Patterson 313 & 351
This guy has had comments removed from other forums for always going on about gypsies and making extremely insulting sexual insults. I would advise the big ignore. Do not rise to his perverted ravings.

315 Wee Shuggy.

Thanks, I am aware of that. Someone asked why would anyone want to attack the likes of Sweden, NZ or Norway, so I gave some examples...tongue in cheek! For those that don't know the NZ issue with the French Secret Svc, Wee man, I'm sure you do of course, GreenPeace had been obstructing the French nuclear tests in the South Pacific. France decided they were a major pain in the ass, so placed a mine on GP's main vessel which was in Auckland at the time...and sunk it.

Hey Joanna - didn't mean to have a laugh at your expense. Sorry.

#282
Nice to have comment from the true American and not from the obnoxious garbage being served up by many of your fellow citizens who remind me off the pre-war powerful Nazi minority inside the USA who terrorised Jews, Catholics and black people.
This distasteful element who obviously are fervent supporters of the sordid Bush; former alcoholic and corrupt business dealer who urgently requires a brain replacement. He is a mere apology for the many great Americans of the past and is in reality, a stooge and a front for the powerful faceless elite who really control the country.
This one time useless individual only became leader
of this great country by seedy, and controlled bare faced fraudulent manipulation by the powerful neo-fascists who have frim control of political power.
Bush became an obvious choice to perpetuate the murky past of his father and the rotten society the USA has now become.
Its people now live in a continual climate of fear that is being fed daily by a corrupt media. The sad day of infamy for the UK began when our timid and corrupt, servile establishment created the special relationship with the more powerful USA.
This sham event has evolved over the years to the present day Bush and Blair (master and poodle)
relationship which spells much forthcoming dangers
for future generations of both countries .
Having become the servile partner in this domination
we submit our tiny island to even further growing anguish to mollify the Americans without the tacit consent of the people of our three countries.
The future political scene is rapidly changing each and every day and the only real obstacle to its swift eventual change, is total and mutual nuclear destruction; UNLESS THE PEOPLE OF THE PLANET WREST POLITICAL CONTROL FROM THOSE WISHING
TO ESTABLISH THEIR NEW WORLD ORDER, BEFORE IT BECOMES TOO LATE!

G

360. But do you like Bush or not?

#346 Agree with Mervin, SNP are the means of acheiving Independance for Scotland, but once thats acheived, the other political parties will re-invent themselves accordingly and will work for independance as well. It would be a grave error on there part if any political party chose to stick to unionism, flying in the face of the peoples decision

I support Scotland's independence. UK fosters terroristic tactics on its own people as the USA does to keep control of the masses to support their corporate agendas. They need Scotland more than Scotland needs Britain. This is why they want you to believe that you are incapable of governing yourselves. Scotland can hold its own good ,indifferent or bad as all countries do. You control your borders and make the decision towards a better Scotland. If you make mistakes like all nations, you have the means to correct them. There is no utopia for any nation; we strive only to be the best we can as no one is perfect. We in Hawaii want our nation deoccupied by the USA who direly needs us more than we need the USA. So we Hawaii Nationals can relate to the Scots who want their rightful sovereignty restored. You control your national territory and how you interact with other nations on all levels. Most US Americans do not know Hawaii's real history; if they did, they would truly be ashamed of their government,...or maybe not.
Scotland deserves their pie and not the crumbs to be magnanimously and arrogantly tossed back to them. I know you love your country as much as we love ours. These two countries should free Scotland and free Hawaii for the true meaning of liberty and justice for all.

John Reid and Tony Blair remind me the Scottish lords etc, of the past who sold Scotland out to England. History repeats itself. These men in my opinion, want to 'stick it out with the biggest', like a wee fella and the school bully. Its all so pathetic really, and doesn't wash with any sensible thinker. Terrorists and illegal immigrants and whoever these clowns can come up with. You are either Scots or you are not!...But of course its all party-politicing, nothing to do with anything exciting like Scotland being free after 300 years.

I'm one of the 100s of thousands Mr Reid refers to.

If it comes to it, I'd hope there'd be an option for dual-Nationality. I suppose my wife being English and my children born down here, they'll choose to be English.

Or by then will we all be citizens of a European state? After all, 70% of UK law is now made in Brussels. With plans for a European Constitution, Foreign policy and Armed Forces being talked about. Irrespective if your a Unionist or a Nationalist, this debate will be pretty academic. And Scotland will have less say over its affairs.

#1- ColinEdin, I know the media & some politicians love to say their countries involvement with the war in iraq make their country less safe; but this is not true. Russia, Turkey, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Sudan, Chad, etc. do not have forces in Iraq-yet they have been attacked by islamic extremists. Chad is slowly being overrun by arab muslim extremists from Sudan. 1998 "FACTS ON FILE" reports on the wave of future terrorism (yes Iraq is mentioned in there). As someone whose relatives have been directly affected by th 93 WTC & 2001 WTC attack, I do my reading and research. Michael Moore is far from a reputable source. He is a joke.

Anyway, Can someone please tell me what nationality most of your immigrants would (and do) come from? Do they try to fit into your society. Also, do you get conflicting reports from your media & politicians about the pros and cons of an independent Scotland? What are the pros and what are the cons and how would it affect your lifestyle if you were to go independent?

I'm just curious.

#313 & #351 Tom Patterson.

I see the unionist arguments are back on a more intellectual footing after the debacle in Oban at the weekend.

358 Echelon_X (or whatever your name is today) - very considered and erudite commenta. Your use of the English language does you credit. Whilst I would agree that Tom's post was somewhat lacking in,..... well anything really, you should really think before engaging keyboard.

360 ditto - funny! (Not)

Sorry Wattie - that should be 361 ditto etc. Your post was, as usual, fine.

Usual load of old dingo’s kidneys from John Reid.

the usual tired drivel from the labour deadheads.
the people responsible for the modern terrorism are now practising seals.check their birth certificates if they have one!

#357
You are right about the French bombing a Greenpeace ship in Auckland (rather than being seen to attack Kiwiland). However, the greater criminality arose when New Zealand essentially kneeled down to the French. Almost nothing was done to assert New Zealand's national identity. I don't suppose the French would have attacked anything in a British harbour. And I'm sure (because of Scots' reputation) they wouldn't dare to try anyhing like that after we finally get independence; but don't tell me you like the idea of the "auld alliance!"

372. The Union would be a better place if it wasn't for politicians. My main dissatisfaction lies with not only labour but any of the oposition. I do not trust any of them, party or individual. The problem is not in the Union per say but with the politicians that are supposedly running it. You only need to watch the Commons debates to see what a bunch of fools these people seem to be, they are an embarrassment.

I have been reading the comments here about indepedance for Scotland. My feelings are personal and not being a citizen I don't feel free to say one way or another. Reading this article a couple of things disturbed me. First was the speech given by Ms. Jameison. She mentioned antisocial behavor orders and community wardens. This sounds like she is ready to take some valuable freedom from you. Social behavor is something that the parents should teach not any government. They tried that in Germany and Russia and every other country that was under a dictatorship. The other one sounds even worse. Just think you may be in your house and say I don't like someone. Your child being politicaly correct will report you to the authorities. #21 you sound like a good democrat, degree from Burkley campus of USC. I even bet that you voted. You let the democrat party which lever to pull and of course you did. The first lever is the democrat lever. Straight socialist vote. I will say that the democrat did a good job the last two years. Sprew hate and fear. Your represenatives could smear and be against everything that the republicans represenatives and the president proposed but never offered any alternative proposal. Back to the issue of Scottish independance, how can you be independent if you are under the EU? In any event this is very interesting and I am going to keep watching to see how it turns out.
Oh, the democrats didn't win the election, the republicans lost it.

Back to Norway--information from two US government links:

CIA Fact Book: " . . . only Saudia Arabia and Russia export more oil than Norway. . . Although Norwegian oil productiion peaked in 2000, natural gas production is still rising. Norwegians realize that once their gas production peaks they will eventually face declining oil and gas revenues; accordingly, Norway has been saving its oil-and-gas boosted budget surpluses in a Government Petroleum Fund, which is invested abroad and now is valued at more than $250 billion."

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/goes/no.html

Department of Energy Selected Reserves (2005-06):

Norway:
BP Statistics Review-- 9.691
Oil & Gas Journal--7.705
World Oil--8.033

United Kingdom:
BP Statistics Review--3.998
Oil & Gas Journal--4.029
World Oil--3.750

Canada:
BP Statistics Review--16.500
Oil & Gas Journal--178.792
World Oil--12.025

United States:
BP Statistics Review--29.922
Oil & Gas Journal--21.757
World Oil--21.757

http://ww.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/reserves/html

Norway has indeed done well investing from its oil reserves. However, other Western industrialized countries (at least according to the US government link) have more resources. I welcome any and all additional information on this subject.

Back to what's his name. My kids were in Australia, I was in the UK. Apart from the distance it didn't alter family relationships.

A good many Americans confuse English and Scot contributions or classify them as "British", but this incresingly isn't the case. For example, current graduate-level rhetoric and composition studies trace the development of college English in the United States back to Scotland rather than England, and some American English departments have reciprocal agreements with Scottish universities rather than English ones.

Also, most Americans acknowledge that we stand on the shoulder of giants (European civilization), but we also have had a written constitution for over 200 years and might--just might--offer some historial perspective.

Please also note that no matter how unhappy some Scots and English posters might be with George W. Bush, the mid-term elections will perhaps bring a change in policy. Usually if either domestic or foreign policy in the US goes too far to the left or right, voters in subsequent elections bring it back to a moderate position. I wouldn't call this process Fascist--a better term would be Hegalian.

In an attempt to help people understand further the bind people had with Bush I am going to talk about the U.S. in this comment primarily. Sorry about the side-tracking from the issue at hand.

For some of us, Bush was the only option because he was not a socialist. As many of you probably already know many U.S. citizens still love Margaret Thatcher. I know that runs at odds with many people in Scotland, but I can understand why you dislike her. Many people in this country love Maraget Thatcher because she gave the Cold War Alliance of NATO teeth. The UK lead, and lead brilliantly in that period of the conflict. However, some U.S. citizens (myself included) saw John Kerry as wanting to set up a socialist and social well-fare state as is used in much of continental Europe right now. Many people in this country could not stomach the thought of the European Well-fare state in this country. It's just a disagreement the U.S. seems to have with many Europeans on how to run a society. Let's agree to disagree on this issue. But since many in the U.S. did not favour the social well-fare state, many saw Bush as the only alternative to John Kerry. John Kerry also vacilated between positions which made it confusing as to what he really thought, much like the problems that New Labour has with Jack McConnel and Tony Blair/Brown. I, and I think many U.S. voters felt, that they could not get a straight answer out of John Kerry on what his principles were, be they moral or how to run a country.

If there are any paralells between the past U.S. presidential campaign and the current campaigns being fought in Scotland then it would be that the party/persons who cannot clearly state their purpose and principles are fairing worse than those who can. If there is one thing which New Labour and the Democratic Party in the last Presidential election have in common, it is that they both in these elections are talking out of two sides of their mouths simultaneously. You have on the one hand Jack McConnel stating that the Scottish Parliament should have more powers, and then Tony Blair and Gordon Brown saying, "Actually, well, NO not really". John Kerry had the same problem and many people could not stomach him.

I pay attention to the state of "British politics" because at college (uni) I was an International Studies Major and picked Europe as my area of concentration of study. I think Scotland will get independence, either in 2007 or in 2011 as someone else floated earlier on the forum. In 2007 it will either be because the SNP wins the election outright and or that other pro-independence parties are elected to the Scottish Parliament and can form an executive government in favour of independence and hold a referendum on it. It would be 2011 if the SNP were the largest party in the Scottish Parliament but somehow New Labour became a minority government. Minority governments are inheritently less stable and a third term of Labour and Lib-Dems as a minority government would almost force the Tory Party to split into the English and Scottish Tories and force the Tories to support Independence just to be able to differentiate themselves from New Labour. I think there are open questions to how long the Lib-Dems and the Conservatives remain UK-wide parties because the interests and perceived interests of the two parties in Scotland and England seem to be diverging (at least from this side of the Pond).

Two more things. I rather lik

330 When we first joined the EU David Martin (Labour)candidate said that an independent Scotland would be removed automatically from the EU.
Winnie Ewing asked the outgoing president of the EU about this and was assured this is another load of LABOUR rubbish.
The precedent already exists and involves Denmark and Greenland as far as I can recall and their Scandinavian trading arrangements (but clarification from any of our Viking friends would be most welcome here)
The essential point is that whatever the position of Scotland would be,the identical position exists for the other member states England.Wales and Northern Ireland .Scotland does not get a divorce from the UK,........EVERYBODY DOES and the United Kingdom does NOT exist as such,but the memberships of the EU remain intact until these countries negotiate their removal .Scotland leaving the United Kingdom is what the refferendum will be about,and thats ALL that the people will have been consulted on and therefore ALL that has been agreed.
Unless we have someone who knows better than the chairpersons of the EU (and David Martin is certainly not one) then the position would apparently be decided ?

Regardless of the possibilities/fears of independance.

Labour lie to the electorate.

If they say it, it is only for their own aims.

Illegal immigrants and terroists what? Like Scotland doesn't have them already. If Scotland has the will to stop these scumbags migrating north, they can create a border and stop them entering but I don't think the Scottish parliament would be anymore commited than the English parliament and like the English parliament would also have an open door policy to the scum bags bogus asylum claims. Look at all the failed and useless Home Office ministers like Des Brown and the female embarassment who lied before him. Look at Blunkett, a Home Secretary who will be remembered for what he could get out of the post and the saga with his mistress whom he gave preferential treatment courtesey of the tax payer ; he has a nerve. Look at Clarke who never answered a question without imparting a 1000 words in reply only to leave the questioner's ears ringing from the sound of waffle whilst dangerous scum bags were haemorrhaging onto the streets from prisons under his very nose. Look how they have dealt with s*** like Abu Hanza, his gfamily all drawing £000's of state benefits and his smelly colleagues. They provided him with police protection outside that den of iniquity Finsbury Park Mosque whilst that venomous piece of garbage cited hate against the indigenous population who unlike him were born here and whose ancestors were too. Shouting hatred with his dodgy and dagerous form of Islam inciting all the converts to Islam to take up arms and bomb the people in this country. 2.5 million a day coming in unchecked and 1million white indigenous leaving but ask Migration Watch for the real figures. The mess England is in is courtesey of the Blair family AND THEY HAVE THE AUDACITY TO TELL SCOTLAND WHAT WILL HAPPEN AFTER INDEPENDENCE?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

--"Martha"---i read all posts, & am impressed by your stamina, while surrounded by so much rabid testosterone.

----"Richard"--where is "West Lothian"?????????

#384 "Where is West Lothian?
Now, there's a question.

Reid is a numpty. Go back to England you twit.

C'mon Jocks - are you going to leave it to an Englishman to answer #384 Sandy's second question?

Oh, OK then. It's like this , Sandy:

There's an area to the south of the Firth of Forth called The Lothians. Edinburgh is in the middle of it, in the chunk called Midlothian. In the middle of Edinburgh is a soccer team called Heart of Midlothian who, incidentally, demolished my ma-in-law's birthplace to build their stadium. To the right of Midlothian is East Lothian; to the left, West Lothian. The Westminster MP for West Lothian, Tam Dalyell, was the chappie who first raised the constitutional question arising from devolution, re Scotland having its own parliament for home affairs, whilst Westminster MPs of Scottish constituencies were able to vote on matters affecting only home affairs in England, etc, etc. The subject was henceforth called "The West Lothian Question" -- which is why #385 was such a hysterically funny and clever comment that left everyone, particularly Richard, West Lothian, rolling in the aisles with amusement.

... And if there is the slightest detail wrong in that potted summary, you can expect it to be pointed out vociferously.

... And don't fret about Richard's #387 reaction; he's a touchy, parochial little @#* who doesn't have anything constructive to add to a debate that is of wider geographical interest than his own tenement.

Ken S (#388) -- if you were here I'd stand you a pint of the best -- what a lovely man to simply answer an honest question.

There's no political issue whatsoever that can't be given the bogey-man treatment: "If you ever [fill in the blank], you'll be vulnerable to terrorists." This country has been half paralyzed with it, right down onto the city levels. That just means they've already done their worst without firing a shot.

388 Ken. You kindly provided the answer to where is West Lothian?, describing it as "To the right of Midlothian is East Lothian; to the left, West Lothian."
Now assume D.Trump is flying down from his resort to Edinburgh by helicopter and wanted to have a wee pass over some of West Lothian. On seeing the castle he takes his bearings and based on the directions you provided him takes a left from his northely approach, heading to where he believes will take him over the wonderful sights of West Lothian. Now I'm sure you have already recognised the error in your navigation, although by now of course it would be too late. Trump is now lost, diasapointed, late and low on fuel.
The next day he calls you into his office. Ken he say's softly...YOUR FIRED!
NAVIGATION, NAVIGATION, NAVIGATION

Well, I know which response I prefer between 389 and 390!

Has the bell not rung for you to go back into class, Richard, or are you truanting again?

#391 Echelon_X

I was utilising an analogous technique to that used when taught double-entry bookkeeping in college; thus I know for sure that a debit is entered on the side nearest the windows. By the same principle, I am positive that West Lothian is on the left - or "Labour" as we call it.

As the old navigation saying goes "I was not lost, just temporarily unsure of my position"

Ahh, Ken, are you the VAT fanatic?