Because Alex Salmond will be holding office long after Gordon Brown, whose brief tenure as Prime Minister will be swiftly followed by obscurity.

No suprise :)

Looks like a load of sour grapes by Blair.

This article could well be construed as trying to stir it between the 2. So be it. Brown will have enough trouble holding onto Scottish Labour seats never mind marginal SOE seats. 2 years and he's out on his rear end.

Sorry I meant Brown but the 2 names are interchangeable. The BB sums them up.

#1

Sorry, Gordon who?

BTW

Does anyone know which PM had the shortest reign? 2 years must be close? Maybe Alex will give him a job post the next election.

Great. we in the English Tory Party look forward to bidding a fond farewell to a new, independent, Scotland and running our own country, as they want to do!

Ditto Paul - we in Scotland look forward to running our own country for the fisrt time in 300 years with a leader who is not answerable to leaders in London !

Good luck Paul we are on the same side!!

#7

Sounds a good proposal !

I think I'll go and slip the moorings at Carter Bar right now !

anyone got anything sensible or constructive to say instead of meaningless one liners??

I wonder if this swearing on oath in front of so many Judges has anything to do with Injustice In Scotland.
Is this for example, why when anyone complains to First and Justice Ministers about wrongdoings within the Justiciary, Their complaints are ignored?
Is this how MSPs cannot and indeed are reluctant to become involved in legal issues raised time and time again by constituents.
Like Iain McKie's article in the Herald yesterday, i hope SNP can learn by Labour's Mistakes and dole out justice more evenly and look seriously at how to reform our Court infrastucture and look more closely at the organisation (SCCRC) set up to cure Miscarriages.

http://williambeck.blogspot.com/

http://shirleymckie.myfastforum.org/sutra34.php#34

What a sad, bitter man Brown is. As a fellow Kirkcaldy boy I would have expected some dignity from him. Grace in losing is a sign of man. its a good thing he will have something nice to look across the field at Starks Park next year that can remind of his position in Scotland. Thats if it is still politically expedient for him to support that club next year.

12/13*thank you

7* paul martin never noticed an upsurge in English nationalism (Is there such a party)Maybe the BNP should now call themselves the ENP.They hold no sway up here(thank God).Bet you Tories would crap yourselves if Scotland went the full road.Seem to recall devolved authorities in Englandshire were shot down!!!

Auckland Arab!!!!

Can't be another United fan in Auckland is it?

"He (Salmond) may well struggle with discipline and that could mean it all kicks off."

The first word out of turn, the first statement to contradict that of Brown's, will be the first justification for a vilivication of Salmond by the Scottish press. The taunts of the Scotsman and the others is the shrimp fly that the SNP MSPs must never rise to. And I'm pretty sure - even Bill Wilson - won't take their bait. That is because the SNP are the Government and government brings responsibility. Sounds good eh?

Gordon, the game's a bogey.

#12. BW2,

Without quoting names or cases, there is on average of well over 1000 individual representations a year from members of the public and their elected msps and mps, to the Scottish Executive Justice Department over problems with lawyers, the Law Society, Advocates, the Courts, the Judiciary .. That has been going on for years - at least since 1994 when I found out about it and probably before then.

The stacks of correspondence are immense and if someone were to browse the actual letters sent by politicians on behalf of constituents they might wonder why on earth the same kinds of letters were coming from the same politicians (from ALL parties, including the SNP) on behalf of different constituents over the same problems, week in week out, year in year out ... and the replies usually range from - see a lawyer to we can't do anything about it because the releveant professional body is mandated in law to regulate its members - those replies come from civil servants right up to ministerial level.

Now that the SNP are holding the reigns of power, and I am certainly happy on that one for now, they should get right to it and resolve these issues .. no excuses, no more bland letters back saying nothing can be done etc ...

There is injustice in Scotland - a lot of it, now is the time to end it

17 *Wonderfull contribution to a politcal debate !!.Download the Dundee Courier and stay of this thread.

#19

The way I understand it is that the Law Society represents lawyers but also deals with complaints against lawyers. In the profession of architecture the RIAS (or RIBA) represent architects but the ARB is the body that deals with complaints.

The ARB is in effect a consumer organisation that will enforce the huge professional responsibilities on those able to call themselves architects. But as professionals architects accept this even if it means that one mistake can mean ruination under the scrutiny and law of the ARB. It seems absurd that Lawyers -of all people- have no such scrutiny and are firewalled against incompetence.

I don't know the SNP policy but what's good for the goose and that.

#20 I presume you meant "wonderful""political" and "off"????

Such a serious fellow aren't we?

Lighten up geezer!!!!!

19 Peter Cherbi

Injustices's yes see the link. Injustice on a large scale and you are right with the letters, might do something with that to find if all replies were the same. Would be an interesting topic.
I might even post some of my replies on flickr.
Peter dont you agree though that the whole System is in desperate need of an urgent overhaul.
And yes , at the second time of me voting for SNP they have managed to boot out Labour, But will they keep all their promises? It remains to be seen.
Because of the Majority they will struggle to make much difference and pass any real material Laws.

http://williambeck.blogspot.com/

http://shirleymckie.myfastforum.org/sutra34.php#34

*16"7* paul martin never noticed an upsurge in English nationalism (Is there such a party)Maybe the BNP should now call themselves the ENP."

The Tories have been the de facto English National Party since the Thatcher era.

19*,you have an excellent point !.But the SNP dont have the" reigns of power",they have the threads of power.I dont think they would go that lenght without a more substantial majority

N0. 6 Aukland Arab

George Canning holds the record for the shortest term as prime minister, serving just 119 days in 1827.

No. 13 Eddie D

Increase your Valium intake. You sound like you are on the verge of hallucinating.

22* love NZ and OZ to bits,but we are discussing your home land,not "the Arabs"Better qualify that i refer to a football team).I do have a sense of humor,but this is not meant to be a flippant thread."lighten up geezer"?? you certainly did not pick that phrase up in Scotland,we dont have "Geezers "here.

Ok "huv a chill pill raj" is that slightly more colloquial and fitting to my country of origin?

I would also like to add that i'm not stopping anyone from talking about anything just saying "Kia Ora" to another of my exiled friends. Apologies for the distress it has caused you my friend.

I'm off to compose a 15000 word essay entitled "The Art of being responsible and serious at all times"

p.s Who give's a monkey's if Brown hasn't phoned Salmond!!!!! Over analysis causes paralysis, so just kick back and see whats going to happen over the next week or two, could be very interesting.

I hereby endeth the lesson

#28

I think you're p***** Caledonia. And we don't spell it 'humor' in Scotland.

joe 25* not quite with you on your comment<< please elaborate??

#29 Joe

Brown's behaviour is undignified and disgraceful. The SNP is the largest party as a result of democracy and Alex Salmond is the First Minister of Scotland as a result of a vote. Brown may not agree with the SNP's policies but, if he becomes the next PM, his disrespect for AS will be disrespect for those who voted SNP. In my mind Brown is an arrogant buffoon.

#32 Reins refer to a leather straps fastened on to a horse's bridle and used to control the horse. A thread is a fine cord of a fibrous material, such as cotton or flax, made of two or more filaments twisted together and used in needlework and the weaving of cloth. Threads are weaker that leather and therefore the SNP may not be able to effect change because they are a minority government whose power is controlled by reins of thread rather than reins of leather. Or are referring to Caledonia's mis-spelling of the word?

31*.hi mate,you are half right(haulf p*****,dominoe night).Sorry for the spelling,didnae ken ye wur wi yon ye burd in "countdown"Susie Dent(only kidden.)

Gerri Peev says Mr Brown believes Mr Salmond is "hell-bent on destroying the United Kingdom, the political stewardship of which Mr Brown is weeks away from inheriting."

Mr Salmond is not nearly as much of a threat to the UK as Mr Blair, who, based on his record, is very likely to give away still more of Britain's sovereignty at the EU ministers' conference.

#21, #23 & #25

There is a new piece of legislation on the books I and many others have been campaigning for since 1994 - the Legal Profession & Legal Aid (Scotland) Act 2007.

It brings a measure of independent regulation to the legal profession, increases fines for crooked lawyers, and does go some way to addressing the problems of the past, but there is still a long way to go to make the legal profession as accountable as architects or others.

For a long time, the lawyers have been a law unto themselves, have used their political clout to thwart reforms at every turn, and left the consumer out in the cold. I know this, many who have fallen victim to a rogue lawyer know this, and the Scotsman group know it as this very newspaper has carried plenty stories on my case and many others over the years.

The SNP need to address this problem of "self regulation" which exists not only for lawyers, but also accountants, the Police, Courts Service, etc .. and end it ..and it shouldnt take another 13 years of considering the facts - because the politicians all know full well whats been going on for all this time. Time now for some action on the part of the SNP, after all, it took a Labour administration to actually have the guts to pass the LPLA Act in the first place .. now the SNP should go one better and fully implement independent transparent regulation for the legal profession, judiciary & the rest, and also, deal with the past victims of these professions, giving them a measure of justice which has been denied for all these years.

Alex Salmond wants to improve Scotland, and I support him for that - so let's get Justice & Injustice to the top of the agenda and clean up the legal system, make it honest again, and fix the problems of the past.

Graceless and unstatesmanlike of Gordon Brown. Oh well, he won't be around for very long.

37*,peter i am with you.But i reiterate,i dont think that this parliament will suceed in passing that type of legislation.To many self interests.

Looks like Westminster's squaring up already - wasn't it supposed to be those nasty nationalists that were going to start picking fights?

#39. caledonia, land o burns

You are probably correct, although I think it's time the issue was forced into debate & remedy. If it isn't, then the SNP don't deserve to govern if they can't deliver a cleaned up Justice system, which is integral to a nations success.

There are a few capable speakers in the SNP on this matter - John Swinney for one, and only time will tell how the issue goes .. subject to dirty tricks from the self interests and their 'sponsors' ...

Nice to see that Scotland, Ireland and Wales are entering into civilised discussions.

I was under the impression form the doom-mongers that when countries are separate [i.e. dissolution of the union] they do not get on, and economies and trade collapses.

Why is this argument not used in the Irish context?

ANY party that links with another to prevent their own country from ever REGAINING the noble position of independence MUST be a party whose members are made up of quislings and all the other dregs of society.
It is a pity that we are not still in the middle ages, as they knew how to deal with such people!!
We must RID ourselves of the pro-union deviant vermin!!

Dont you think that you lot are selling Alex short?. Do you think he is making it up as he goes?. Look there are millions of Scots waiting for their own issues to be taken care of and yes Alex and the team are in minority, and surrounded on all sides by Anglo's. Give the man a break, do you think it was accidental that he made arrangements to go to Ulster next week?. I would say it was one of his top priorities after the election to get support for more powers for the Scots, Irish and Welsh who are members of a Westminster commitee that determine policy on the needs of each member countries Parliament. Broonmooth would not be stupid enough to try ignore a commitee set up for the express purpose of voicing individual country members of the UK. The Westminster shower are well skilled at knifing each other in the back so we might as well take a gun to it.

I have got no doubt that Alex will be the first leader of an Independant Scotland. There might be one or two votes of confidence between now and then and a few protest marches down to Holyrood, but it cannot be stopped now. It carries its own momentum, this Independance thing. Be patient , Get the Message Out about the hostile Anglo's that wont give Alex and his team a chance to do their best, Keep up the comments on as many forums as you can.

My other prediction is that there are current MSP's from other parties who will notice the way the wind is blowing and shall at the least defect to a new Independance Party or the SNP.

Alex Salmond didnt just scrape in to office. He happens to lead a party that broke the back of Labours stranglehold over the Assembly and as importantly the SNP controls the destiny of the majority of Councils here in Scotland. I reckon thats a pretty solid base to upset by not giving the winner of the election the support they need. All we have to worry about is whether Minging lets Little Nicol the Wimp out to play.

This is just typical of Labour and is just sour grapes at loosing the Scottish election. Well Brown get used to the sour grapes cos you will lose the next General election. You are not fit to Govern, and heaven help the next Chancellor or next administration who has to undo the mess and collosal debt that PFI has got us into.

Alex should call the mad monk to congratulate him on his elevation.

It doesn't bode well for Gordon Brown's position as the most senior politician in the UK if he can't even bring himself to talk to the first minister.

Seems like he is the one hellbent on breaking up his precious union.

'Brown would have been a hypocrite to offer congratulations to Salmond. The sentiment wouldn't have been sincere, so why would he pretend otherwise? Why is it we damn people if they do and if they don't? We are pathetic.
'

Well he is a hypocrite then, because he did 'congratulate' the first minister. He just couldn't bring himself to speak to him personally.

And this is the man who will represent the UK on the world stage!

If TS Eliot Knew Gordon Brown he might just well have written his famous words about Macavity with Brown in mind. The Media certainly have Gordon Brown and their Macavity label is already fitting Brown well.....

Macavity's a Mystery Cat: he's called the Hidden Paw--
For he's the master criminal who can defy the Law.
He's the bafflement of Scotland Yard, the Flying Squad's despair:
For when they reach the scene of crime--Macavity's not there!

Macavity, Macavity, there's no on like Macavity,
He's broken every human law, he breaks the law of gravity.
His powers of levitation would make a fakir stare,
And when you reach the scene of crime--Macavity's not there!
You may seek him in the basement, you may look up in the air--
But I tell you once and once again, Macavity's not there!

Macavity's a ginger cat, he's very tall and thin;
You would know him if you saw him, for his eyes are sunken in.
His brow is deeply lined with thought, his head is highly doomed;
His coat is dusty from neglect, his whiskers are uncombed.
He sways his head from side to side, with movements like a snake;
And when you think he's half asleep, he's always wide awake.

Macavity, Macavity, there's no one like Macavity,
For he's a fiend in feline shape, a monster of depravity.
You may meet him in a by-street, you may see him in the square--
But when a crime's discovered, then Macavity's not there!

He's outwardly respectable. (They say he cheats at cards.)
And his footprints are not found in any file of Scotland Yard's.
And when the larder's looted, or the jewel-case is rifled,
Or when the milk is missing, or another Peke's been stifled,
Or the greenhouse glass is broken, and the trellis past repair--
Ay, there's the wonder of the thing! Macavity's not there!

And when the Foreign Office finds a Treaty's gone astray,
Or the Admiralty lose some plans an

#28: "And we don't spell it 'humor' in Scotland."

Isn't it interesting that any non-English (especially American) spellings are quickly denounced on this list (humor, labor, etc.), but still these pages are awash with Scottish spellings (which are often just transliterations of Scottish accents pronouncing English words).

Yay Mr Brown!

Nobody can dispute the fact that Brown holds grudges. It is clear that he holds a grudge against the SNP and AS in particular for giving him a red face in Westminster at the moment of his supposed glory.

Contrast Brown's comments yesterday insofar as they related to AS and Scotland with (a) his avowed interest in delegating democracy to communities and (b) his desire to earn trust of the people. A leopard saying that it will change it's spots? History and human nature dictate otherwise.

An important consequence of Brown's behaviour will be his inability to get on with European and other international leaders. The Brown attitude to AS and the SNP is only the tip of the iceberg that is Brown's maladtroit personality - a most discouraging outlook for Brown (and Britain) all round.

The Rev Ian Paisley, phoned Mr Salmond to congratulate him after he was elected to the post by MSPs on Wednesday.So why didn't our friend Gordon ?

Will our friend Gordon speak with the Sinn Fein members of the NI Assembly when Sinn Fein still want a united Irelend ie the break up of the UK ?

Dignity is not a word Broon is familiar with.
But who gives a toss, he'll soon be history.

Macavity's Cat........

There was a hidden verse that has only just appeared.

Yesterday our Gordon Brown who we thought had disappeared,
Has finally come to take the Crown that he has sought for ten long mad bad years.
Gordy Brown old Gordy Brown has finally appeared.
For him good news, and with good news our Gordy can be seen.
But like THAT cat, THAT mystery cat, old Gordy wont be long,
When bad news comes, and things go wrong,
Our Chancellor will make,
A Vanishing Act, a very fast cat, the nearest exit to escape.

For its his style, to duck a while and leave his poor fall guys
To bury the news, the very bad news in a way that leaves him clean,
But everyone now, knows Gordys m.o. is never to be seen.
When bad news beckons, old Gordy reckons, his cat like strategy, will see his tail, and just his tail, with the rest of him not there.

But sadly though poor Gordys found, his disappearing Act,
Just like THAT cat is wearing thin, and he has just two years,
Before the grin of Scotlands win, makes Gordy re-appear,
For Gordys Cat is will lose its skin, or else I'll eat my hat.

The people don't trust 'Dungfinger' Brown.
'Dungfinger' Brown doesn't trust the people.

whereas......

The people do trust Salmond.
Salmond trusts the people.

The man has no back bone. As for thinking Salmond is hell bent on destroying the Union; Blair, you managed that yourself with your lies and deceit. You will go down in history as the first Prime Minister in 300 years that broke the Unions back, we won't even talk about the illegal wars et al.

Remember that Gordon Brown is the most obvious beneficiary of the union dividend.

"The Chancellor chose a different type of power-house for his acceptance speech - the slick City of London headquarters of Bloomberg, the US financial information giant."
Looks like Gordy is bending over already.................

This is Salmond trying to distract people away from the real issues. The fact that the Msp`s of this country and "I mean nearly all of them" are so poor quality that he has one man in so many different ministerial posts.

There is no reason that Brown should telephone Salmond, no reason at all.

Brown is about to become the leader of Britain and therefore holds a higher office than Salmond could ever hope of attaining. In that regard it is Salmond who must telephone Brown.

Brown is a Scotsman with Scotland's best interest at heart, as is Blair. Between them they recognise the problems that Salmond will deliver to Scotland and I would imagine neither want to congratulate the person who is about to ruin their homeland.

#51 An Australian

Get yersel a copy o the Concise Scots Dictionary.

I hope were all going to support Alex, cause hes going to need it, we are going to get no co-operation from Gordon and Slave Labour!

Should Alex Salmond phone Gordon Brown to congratulate him when he becomes PM?

I wish that all those ex-pats who decided to jump ship and those who happen to have a Scottish great grannie would keep their opinions to themselves.
Leave it to those who live and make a real contibution to Scotland.

what about the £ billions out of our pension funds,where are Scotlands interests there.
blair brown warmongers

Well to be fair, the ex-pats have as much right to comment as we do. What we must ask ourselves though is: Why are they ex-pats in the first place?

Is it because they were sick of Scotland and wanted to make a better life abroad? Or sick of the UK? Either way, at least those of us that stayed, are trying to make a better life fo ourselves by way of having a change of government to see where it leads.

I find the ex-pats have the worst of the Scottish Cringe. It's time to dispel that.

Brown isn't Prime Minister - yet. Surely it was up to Blair to telephone Alex Salmond -Oops, but he was starting his "Frank Sinatra" final concert tour.
Perhaps he intends pencilling in a flying visit to Bute House - a few extra air-miles will be useful.

#65 St Andrew: So you want a world in which people are not permitted to comment on events taking place in other parts of the world?

The SNP fans are getting dangerously close to a communist dictatorship. You dont want democracy, you want a one party state called the SNP and anyone who is against them must be treated with contempt.

Shame on you

Gordon Brown's tenure as PM will be brief as legions of English voters are already lined up to vote the Labour party into oblivion at the next Westmister election in two years time.

Will the Labour MPs at Westminster please vote Tony Blair into a mental asylum so we don't have to suffer the most boring farewell tour in history. This is outrageous and Labour will surely get a kicking at the next election over this. 6 weeks to say bye bye. The power has obviously deranged Blair's thought processes.

Gordon Brown showed himself to be a stubborn and dishonest old goat with his comments before the SNP's election victory that he would not fulfil his duty to co-operate with a Salmold administration. He's a sore loser like many other grumpy old Labourites.

I'm sure that Alex will welcome Gordon to his new position when the time comes. Until then can the media please stop giving hours of time to the changeover from one false and lying PM to one false and thieving PM.

#69 SNP would probably be more respected if they did come off the fence and declare if they are socialist, Liberal or Conservative. This country fought to get rid of dictators, only to vote for the likes of Salmond. It shows you the poor quality of MSP`s when one man has to hold down so many ministerial posts.

#74 - The SNP are a broad coalition. That's the whole point. Only dyed in the wool Labourites can't seem to grasp that government should be about consensus and not power- hungry bullying.

We've hot a great chance to govern properly after years of Labour abuse. Let's make the most of it. The main obstacle may be Labour wrecking tactics. Let's hope the people would never forgive them if they follow that course.

The opening line says that Gordon Brown believes that Salmond is hell bent on destroying the United Kingdom. Certain that is not the truth.

He my want individual parts to have autonomy, but destroy?

Brown was saying yesterday that 70% of Scots did not vote for seperation and that is not easy to quantify, this was not the sole issue people voted for.

The only way to know this is a referendum.

Given the enlightened future PM believes that 70% are against then he will have no issue in a referendum given his view is bound to win the day with his 70% statement. This will clear this area up for another 20 years so either Brown does not believe what he says or he is a very foolish man.

Non story - who cares - really

have u forgotten its gordon's ball and he does not want alex to play and we all know what will happene to spoilt we boys. Grow up Brown the nation is fed up with nepotism of westminster and local labour councils. keep yer ba.

If Alex Salmond manages to keep the ship steady at Holyrood until the General Election things will become very interesting.

If we assume for a moment that "Dave" and his mob win a majority in Westminster I think there could be a step change in Scottish Labour. They may suddenly get a desire to acquire more powers in Holyrood. Alex could possibly forge a loose coalition of support on this basis.

#75, Phil, I hear what you are saying, and i agree that all partys should be fighting for the common good. What I`m trying to say is that there is a poor quality of MP in Scotland, all the better ones are across the border. It shows with Salmonds Government, when one MP holds down so many Ministerial posts. It tells you that Salmond can`t trust anyone else, or it`s a sure sign of a Dictator.

What a non-story. There would be no reason whatever for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to phone the new First Minister. You could argue that the Scottish Secretary should do so, and he has; and you could argue that the Prime Minister would be appropriate to do so if he wanted, though he hasn't; but the Chancellor? This is just stirring nonsense.

As for #56 - let me assure you that I trust Gordon Brown and damn sight further than I trust Alex Salmond. Salmond has a long way to go before he earns my respect and trust, whereas the most successful Chancellor the UK has ever had, one of the brightest men in politics and a man who has championed the redistribution of wealth on a global scale has my absolute support.

I think this is the Scotsman trying to make a case out of nothing because they have nothing special to report.
Gordon brown is not PM yet and although he has been picked as the new Labour Party leader I'm not sure if that is effective immediately or not.
The person who should have congratulated Alex Salmond is Tony Blair but he is wrapped up in his own personal agenda at the moment and is unlikely to be interested in the successes of others!!

LOOKING AT SALMONS CABINET WE DO HAVE A REAL PARCEL O ROUGES IN A NATION

Should "ex pats"who live more time abroad than in Scotland be allowed to vote in Scotland?
Personally i think they should be allowed to vote but it would be interesting to know the opinions of other people.

#61 Media 1 You say "Brown is a Scotsman with Scotland's best interest at heart, as is Blair."

Your thesis is based on the apparent belief that an independent Scotland would be incapable of meeting the supposed benefits of rule by Westminster. This is an extraordinarily pessimistic view of the capabilities of Scotland and her people. You also seem to believe that dependency culture is a good thing. Clearly, in this day and age of increasing globalisation, every nation depends on others but this is in an international context. My view is that this international interdependency is a totally different creature from the dependency culture you seem to advocate.

I think that Scotland and England should be interdependent but one should not be dependent on the other as you, Brown and Blair suggest.

Why on earth would Tony Blair or Gordon Brown congratulate him? He stands for everything that they are opposed to.

Me too for that matter. I wish Salmond and his separatist party all the bad luck in the world. But I won't bother phoning to tell him that either.

I have no problem with that kameroon either. But I would say, no more the 8 months away and 4 at home if you live in a non common wealth region.

#65 Leave the ex-pats alone, at least they are taking an interest in what's going on in Scotland. Which is more than can be said for those doon south.

#83 kameroon

Yes they should be allowed to vote. There are many reasons why people choose to become expats. Many do so for only a few years and return to Scotland to retire etc. Many work abroad and have family members who still reside at home.

One thing the expats can offer is perspective. They are people who are currently living in other cultures, seeing other political systems and can often comment on the issues in Scotland with a objective viewpoint. Personally I find many of the comments made by expats on these boards to be informative and enlightened.

According to the BBC { on this very reliable compter of mine}he's already received a congratulatery telephone call from Gordon Brown.Iss zat the Scotsman trying tae stir up a wee bit more controversy in typical media fashion.......Hmm?

#83

For information. Scots who are resident overseas are not allowed to vote in the Scottish Parliamentary elections. Check this at the votescotland website, where you will find instructions on obtaining a postal vote:

"As an overseas voter, you are eligible to vote in
elections for the UK Parliament and the European
Parliament. You cannot vote in UK local or mayoral
elections, or elections to the Scottish Parliament, the
National Assembly for Wales or the London Assembly"

http://www.aboutmyvote.co.uk/documents/Combined-Overseas-...

#88 HH

Yes, HH. Scotland is world-renowned for its oil industry expertise. Aberdeen in particular has many world class oil and gas drilling, production and service companies. Where there is oil, you'll find Scots. That is the reason many of us are overseas for the time being.

Surely a list of who has or not phoned AS would have come from the SNP or from him, so it is the SNP who are behind the story.
The political reality is the SNP know that they are in on a protest vote and it could easily melt if Brown restores Labour fortunes. Whether he does is another matter.
My concern is that AS thinks that running Scotland is a part time activity, so much for increasing Scotlands standing in the world.
Most of the SNP posts talk about independence from England, it will be from Wales and Northern Island as well, why is this rarely mentioned.
AS wants to stay in politics, so the only way he can ensure that is to keep his westminster seat, has anything been said by him resigning it at the next election? My bet he will keep it, arguing he has done it for 2 yrs so why not carry on.

Ireland not Island - should edit more carefully

I just want to say that Mr Salmond takes a very good photie & if he hasn't had a call frae Mr Brown he doesn't look too sad about it...

80. Duncan in Edinburgh

I am not an SNP supporter but what happened to old fashioned manners and respect for an opponent ?
Have they too disappeared in New Labour's PC world ?
As for GB himself . His slavering's over the past few days are enough to give any one the "boak"
What about this new found honesty and seudo humility ? It is so transparent !!
As for " the redistribution of wealth on a global scale " . He has certainly done that with my and many other's pension's plus a raft of stealth taxes.
One thing is for sure he will soon be found out now he is " exposed " to scrutiny as PM .

I just phoned Alex. He says Hi to everybody but he's not upset at all.

He's going to send an e-mail instead.

Mr Salmond has far more important things to do than spend a milli second wondering why treacherous GB hasn't called him to congratulate him..

Jim P Netherlands
How could these rules then be applied to someone with dual residency?

#95 In what possible sense is GB AS's "opponent"? Jack McConnell was his opponent in this election, and you'll no doubt have noted his very gracious congratulations and warm words in the Scottish Parliament. GB is the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the UK. There is simply no reason why he should have rung Salmond, and this is just a nonsense story.

Otherwise, where is the outrage that Margaret Beckett didn't ring him? What about Prescott - why didn't he pick up the phone? Sheesh, if you people had your way Salmond would spend his entire time fielding congratulatory phonecalls from the UK cabinet. Grow up.

Gorgon Broon was probably too busy thinking up some scam for emptying out Eck's pension fund.

83 kameroon

It has to be said, expats get some flak on these boards. There are many reasons for being an expat, being one does not negate my right to have a say in my countries future though.

I am involved in education, I come home for 2 months in the summer, 1 week at Easter and 2 at Christmas. I have a home in Scotland, was born and bred in Scotland, my family and friends mean everything to me and we are in touch daily, so why should I not be allowed to say my piece on these boards without being told to shut up because I don't live there?

I have sympathy even with people who have emigrated for good, they left but still care about Scotland, probably economic reasons forced them to leave but their hearts are still in Scotland. It's high time people that curse expats on these boards had a little quiet time to think about the myriad of reasons that some people have left the country before attacking them.

#99. Jack McConnel was just trying to look as statesmanlike as possible before the inevitable round of Labour infighting to choose his successor.

#101

Ex-pats should not have the vote.

Two reasons, they dont pay taxes or live with the consequences of their decision.

Of course in a free country like Scotland they are free to express their opinion. But as Clint Eastwood said opinions are like ......

#102 And there you go - damned if you do, damned if you don't. No wonder political debate is in the gutter in this country.

#98 kameroon

I'm no expert on this but the yoo-kay tax rules require you to be resident either there or overseas. I'm not sure if there is any concept of dual residency. I am required to pay taxes on earnings in NL. I can vote in NL on local elections but not NL general election.

103 Doh
But what if you are still a British citizen and don't have dual nationality.

All the best to them both in their new jobs.

A Phone call from Gordon would be as welcome as a kiss from an Italian guy in a black hat.

Jim P Netherlands
It's one of those "grey areas" i think!

#103 Doh

Ex-pats pay yoo-kay taxes if they are "resident" in yoo-kay for tax purposes, eg if "domiciled" abroad. Therefore many ex-pats do pay yoo-kay taxes. Ex-pats who pay taxes in another country still pay taxes on any earnings they have in yoo-kay, subject to normal allowances. Ex-pat is not a term that the revenue uses.

#103 Opinions are like what? Don't know the quote.

#109 kameroon, lanarkshire

I was educated in Coatbrig, - so I ken aboot grey areas!

112 Jim P Netherlands
Nu woon en werk je in Nederland,en groot verschil volgens mij.Ga je vaak terug naar coatbrig?LOL

Fareweel, it's a holiday here and I'm awa a run tae Arnhem, where Scotland is held in high esteem.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2004/09/21094001

#92 AJM

There is no doubt a large element of protest vote against Labour... however, if I was a Labour party activist, member or MSP/MP, I wouldn't be as sanguine that it will melt away quite as easily as yo suggest in your post.

Brown is likely to get a drubbing in the next General Election, for a number of reasons including people being tired of Labour, Iraq, sleaze, worries about the illiberal spin obsessed nature of "New" Labour.

Whether Camreon's "Blair Lite" act will bring about a Tory victory is open to question. However either a Tory victory on the back of middle England deserting Labour, or a hung parliament in Westminster leading to a Labour/Lib-Dem coalition would both tend to boost SNP support I would imagine!

#114

Ja, Ik werk in Den Haag!

CU,
Jimmy

#114

Mijn broer woon nog in Coatbrig.

83: Anyone NOT contributing to the money pot shouldn't be allowed to vote. Why should people have a say in, effectively, where the money is spent when they are not adding to the balance. After all, we don't have a say in what their money is spent on...

Before anyone mentions those on benefits, they are making a nominal contribution within the benefit system.

On topic, this is typical of what the constituents in Fife know of GB - the man's an individual contributor, not really a team player. As the governor of some bank, he'd do quite well but he's just too smarmy and up himself to retain his position for long.

#113 I had understood that he was intending to keep both jobs until the general election.

117 Jim P Netherlands
Fijne dag verder.

#119 Hmm, interesting description that: "the man's an individual contributor, not really a team player. As the governor of some bank, he'd do quite well but he's just too smarmy and up himself to retain his position for long."

Could be applied to a boy fae Linlithgow...

First Minister Alex Salmond is a threwd intelligent Scot.

Honest, upfront and a cabinet that will show the other parties up for what they are.. Lackies to Westminster..

It shall not be easy but an advantage they have (SNP ) is that the opposition, have little to offer.

Although the SNP are in minority government when the cameras went round the back benches looking at the gloom faces of the other parties did it not strike you all that, debate will show these scoundrels up for what they are..

Legislation forwarded from the ruling group will be for Scots with no input from London good, bad or indifferent.. Genuine devolution progress and hopefully independence in the future.

Best wishes to Alex in the coming months and years.

#98 and #110

If an ex-pat still pays UK taxes then I yes they should be able to vote, if they are regarded as domicilied in the UK. Fine.

I thought we were talking about ex-pats that had lived abroad for a number of years. I dont know the exact rules - I was expressing
my opinion - I remember Thatcher made it easier for ex-pats to continue to here that was a mistake

#111 Yane

Opinions are like "a rude word for bottoms" - everyone has got one.

#110 Jim

When I lived in France, after 6 months I started paying French taxes and had to be given a waiver from payign UK taxes.
As I say I dont know the rules today - but the point still stands if you dont pay UK taxes I dont think you should vote in UK elections.

#123 Where's he been threwd tae?

#43 democracy, Scottish Borders
ANY party that links with another to prevent their own country from ever REGAINING the noble position of independence MUST be a party whose members are made up of quislings and all the other dregs of society.
It is a pity that we are not still in the middle ages, as they knew how to deal with such people!!
We must RID ourselves of the pro-union deviant vermin!!

Where have we heard that type of rhetoric from? Malosovic and Hitler comes to mind.

#44 Brisbane Scot
Alex and the team are in minority, and surrounded on all sides by Anglo's.

Who are those Anglo's then? can you name them?.

#63 Scott 'Ola' Foam, Scotland
I hope were all going to support Alex.

I think the fact that the SNP only got 47 seats from the 129 available is proof that we don't all support Alex.

Alex also being an MP in London is an advantage.

"Mr Salmond and other SNP members in Westminster".
Well whatever foul means perpetuated in Holyrood will be highlighted by having a voice in what I call an English parliament..

A golden double nugget for the worldwide opinion.

A win, win situation...

To those who asked and No 26. The Earl of Rosebery served just 109 days. Will Brown manage to better this?
http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page143.asp

Michael Portillo suggested during last weeks Newsweek (BBC) programme that the Tories should target Brown's Scottishness in the next general election. Sounds like a bit of racism to me. Would he get away with saying the Tories should target blacks. The attitudes of Brown and the Tories may do more for the Nationalists cause than Alex Salmond.

"Mr Brown has been keen to resist associating himself with the aftermath of the Scottish elections."

Gordon Brown has been very good at 'resisting association' with anything that goes wrong. As PM he will not find that so easy.

"A high-profile war with Mr Salmond is simply not in Mr Brown's interests. However, it could be in Scottish Labour's. For many hope that Mr Brown will put the squeeze on Mr Salmond, leading to his minority government falling"

So 'many' in Scottish Labour hope Brown will somehoe depose Alex Salmond as FM, Scottish Labour still can't quite grasp the democracy thing.

""I think it's a huge responsibility that he has taken on," Mr Brown said of Mr Salmond, serving notice that Labour will quickly condemn as "irresponsible" any SNP move to alter the devolution settlement."

"The terms of the devolution settlement have not been altered by either the election results in Scotland or by the election of a new First Minister in Scotland yesterday," Mr Straw told the SNP's Angus MacNeil."

Gordon Brown and Jack Straw need to have a closer look at the Holyrood election results. A majority of MSPs were elected on a manifesto of greater powers for the Scottish Parliament.
Brown and Blair should then look at the election results for Westminster in 2005 and work out what THEIR mandate is for the constitutional change that Brown is proposing.

Brown exudes unpleasantness. A thoroughly nasty piece of work in my view!

126 Duncan..
It would be a waste of my time getting tied into your wee web... LOL

I have read many of your submissions over recent weeks and I shall allow (as I have in the past) your comment no further progress as far as I'm concerned..

Joke McFlannen in disguise I methinks... LOL.

oops ! got that one wrong! doh!

Media 1 and Watcher - You pair are the most narrowed minded idiots on this board, you can only think in two dimensions and if something doesn't fit then it must be dangerous or discounted.

Scotland has changed, why don't you pair get with the times.

frankly, who cares? Has Alex phoned Gordon either? No. Stupid story.

#79 Watcher said:

"It tells you that Salmond can`t trust anyone else, or it`s a sure sign of a Dictator."

or a third reason might be that Salmond is actually making the correct decision. Time will tell, but i'll bet that this Executive will be streets ahead of the last one in terms of delivering policies that move Scotland forward.

Gordon Brown will not have a great deal of choice; I suspect he is not going to be in such a strong bargaining position as he might think. After all, if the First Minister of the Welsh Assembly (if Labour are pushed out of power there), the First Minister of the Northern Ireland Assembly, and the First Minister of Scotland are agreed on a tranche of issues, then powers will - surely - ebb away from Westminster. It would be very difficult for Westminster to say no; it seems the new politics of coalition and consensus has spread throughout the so-called Celtic fringe. It's not only Gordon Brown who will have to get used to this; I'm looking forward to seeing what David Cameron has to say about it all.

#133 Aye, and your characterisation of all non-SNP MSPs as "scoundrels" clearly marks you out as being as "threwd" as your hero.

Brown is a liar ,and a war monger just like TB.
On here the Labourites are still trying to fight the election.
Labour in Holyrood and now Westminster think that power is theirs by right and they will not allow a small thing like a democratic vote by the people get in the way of them keeping their noses in the trough.
Brown and Labour will be history come next General Election in UK.
Independence is coming whether or not you unionists like it or not.
I just hope Alex opens the books and finds all the corruption that has been 50 years of Labour rule in Scotland.
Labour depend on Scotland sending 50+ Mps to Westminster and there is no cxhance of that happenning next time, Labour is finished ,so is the Union time to jump ship you lot!!

#80 dunca said

"let me assure you that I trust Gordon Brown and damn sight further than I trust Alex Salmond. Salmond has a long way to go before he earns my respect and trust, whereas the most successful Chancellor the UK has ever had, one of the brightest men in politics and a man who has championed the redistribution of wealth on a global scale has my absolute support."

Duncan you seem to be living in a weird parallel universe!

I'm fed up hearing with the great myth that Brown is the most successful chancellor ever. In reality he is far from that. National debt quadrupled, house prices in orbit with no chance for first time buyers, interest rates on the way up, stealth taxes. I fear your trust is misplaced......

122: Smarmy - maybe, up himself - possibly (wouldn't you be?) but I'm afraid he's 'team' all the way. Ask his constituents!! (The one's that voted him to Westminster. The Gordon folk have no experience yet.)

He's certainly more of a statesman than GB will ever be.

However, the fight will be good given their respective past experience and vocation.

#128
SNP want to rename Westminster as the English parliament, it seems that nationalism is doing a disservice to the MP's from Northern Ireland and Wales and wants to brush them out of the argument. Its a more difficult concept to get across.

Zardiz - you are right things can easily be more complicated. I am sure that Gordon B's accent has changed to be less obviously Scottish to appeal to the South East voters. I agree Iraq is a big issue but if he can sort it people have short memories and if the economy is doing well he may have chance.

Media 1, Westminster is already a dictatorship.New labour has said in the past that it would listen to the people after its majority was reduced inthe last election. Blair's reignation speech cleary showed that it has not. How can Westminster send congratulations to the New French President who is considered very right wing, but not have the PM or PM elect send congratulations to Slamond on his election? The three Westminster parties are in an unholy alliance. They are the ones who will be responsible for Scotland being ruled from Westminster by whichever one of them wins a UK General Election

MR BROWN MAY BE AN INTELLEGENT MAN AS THE MEDIA WOULD HAVE US BELIEF.

BUT HE HAS CONDEMMED HIMSELF WITH HIS OWN ACTIONS.

MR SALMOND DESERVES THE RESPECT OF FELLOW POLITICAL MEMBERS .

" MANNERS MAKES THE MAN." SOMETHING HIS PARENTS SHOULD HAVE TAUGHT MR BROWN.

GOOD LUCK MR SALMOND IN ALL YOU DO FOR SCOTLAND.

ROBERT BURNS SAID -- " AN HONEST MAN IS THE NOBLEST WORK OF GOD." AND THAT I AM SURE YOU ARE.

AM2

"Why should Brown, or any other PM, have anything more to do with Salmond than is strictly necessary? "

Because, if Brown doesn't form a working relationship with our First Minister then it has political consequences for your beloved Union. I'd have thought that was obvious.

I laugh at all you ex pats who champion SNP and its referendum. Scotland is a run dwn place and it has been getting worse. My background is in economic development and for me it is absolutely apparent that one of the main reasons is the lack of focus on wealth creation here. It is almost a bad word. In Scotland that answer to everything is expanding the public sector. This tactic WILL drag us down. AS will more beaucracy, more layers of Government etc etc. Why will SNP make a difference does anyone know the detail of their policies on economic growth? This has got to be the most fundamental issue in this age where we are competing in a Global arena. Without investment and subsequent revenue everything else collapses. The best comments any of you can come up with is a bad guy (blair) - good guy (salmond) scenario. Im apolitical I dont have faith in any of the Scottish MSPs on the basis of what Ive heard to date - sack them all bring Scootish MPs up here if you like, sell off Holyrood and slash corporate taxes with the money saved

#76 GrahamH
Brown was saying yesterday that 70% of Scots did not vote for seperation and that is not easy to quantify, this was not the sole issue people voted for.

When the electorate looked at the Labour, Conservative and Lib/Dems manifesto's they knew that every thing they said was as part of the union.
Only one party offered a referendum on splitting the union in their manifesto the others did not.
The people knew that all the issues the parties they voted for were talking about meant those issues were with in the framework of the union.
If they had wanted these issues in a Scotland separated from the rest of the UK then they would have voted SNP.
They would then have voted to split the union and then voted for the party of their choice after the split.
They didn't so we know that they do not want separation they want these issues on Scotland discussed as part of the union.

140: It's called diplomacy. GB will be quick enough to welcome the next US President or PM/President of Israel and will even congratulate newly selected leaders of his opposition in Westminster at such times as required.

Even in an independence split, diplomacy has to prevail.

No, this is a simple case of keeping ball or chucking toys out of the pram because he can't instruct the Parliament to his will directly.

#143 If he's "'team' all the way" then why was the SNP election campaign fought on the basis of "Alex Salmond for First Minister" to the extent that the party was renamed as such on the ballot? The SNP played the AS personality card for all it was worth. Team player? Pah.

#124 Doh -- Aye everyone might have one but it's having a new or interesting way of expressing it that's a killer...

#140 AM2

You are being tendentious as normal AM2.

GB should do the statesmanlike thing.. it would do him more credit than the rather petulant display so far. Nobody is expecting him to submit to AS's agenda.

It's one thing to oppose something you don't believe in, I would suggest it is quite another to act in a negative way, and "have as little to do" with AS as possible.

You.. and GB and other Unionists.. may not LIKE the outcome of the election, but thae fact remains that the SNP won the largest number of seats, and got more of the popular vote. That's democracy for you.

The Scottish voters will be watching GB and Labour closely I suspect. There may be no consensus for independence... but it can't be denied there is a growing amount of support for more powers for Holyrood. If GB isn't careful, he will simply play into the SNP's hands.

#130 Alex

They would do better to target Brown's other-worldliness. He is a strange one who will be cruelly exposed when he can no longer run away from problems as he has done so many times over the last 10 years.

I predict that he will self-destruct over the next 2 years.

149: Whilst it would be nice to have the Parliament exhibit these economic standards, up until now, there has been no advance in Scottish economic growth as a result of the controlling party. Now that there are differing viewpoints, there is a possibility that such advances can be made.

The Scottish Labour Party manifesto concentrates on education - skills drain in fuiture years... no good

The Scottish Liberal Democrats - same ideas as Scottish Labour

The SNP manifesto - clear indication of an intent to increase growth by promotion of a strong busines community... better put not perfect.

The SNP clearly has ideas closer to those required for a future.

#152 Duncan

Your point is??

99

"Grow up "
What a poor reponse !
Obviously yet another New Labour man who has given up old fashioned manners and respect - now there's a surprise !!

The bottom line is no matter which party you support Scptland as a whole has "grown up" and seen through N L.

I believe there is an interesting four years to come .
Although not SNP I am happy to see what they can do in government.

Speaks volumes about the man. Social graces went out the window when he disappeared to England for a bigger stage in keeping with his over weaning ego. I think Alex Salmond will just about manage to cope as any bigger man would.

152: Know the man personally do you? The slogan was used to promote the party stance on leadership and their support for the man at the top.

Had the other parties expressed some of the same rather than promoting doom and gloom then they may have fared better.

#148 AM2

So how do unionists see it then? Because the SNP's ultimate aim is independence, GB will try to "blank" AS as far as possible? How is that in the interests of the Scottish people, or indeed those of the people of the UK as a whole?

It is becoming increasingly apparent to me that one of the biggest recruiting grounds for the SNP is this type of attitude.

It hardly seems very democtratic for GB and supporters of the Union to act this way.. but time will tell! I think their position is crazy... whether you believe in the Union or not.

#149 Chooseanamesteven

Hmmm... You have a background in economic development do you? Well in that case you'll be interested to know that the SNP's plan includes smaller government, lower corporation tax and lower business rates.

AM2. You popping up here as well? Haven't you got a home or pub to go to, anyone else and it would irritating but with you it is quite sad really. Loneliness in the political wilderness is truly to be pitied.

#AM2

We would be delighted if for once Westminster only required to connect with Scotland for things only "strictly necessary" instead of their sabotage and marauding exploitation over the past few centuries.
It is virtually a backhanded compliment to the SNP that losers and competitors cannot bring themselves to recognise their failing grasp on the will of the people by at least demonstrating the common courtesy of congratulating a winner. Becoming a 'walk in' leader of the Labour Party so unencumbered by worthy opponents is not exactly difficult - should Mr Brown be congratulated for just the luck of being in the right place at the right time?

#161 I've met him a few times, yes. You?

163 Dick

It think a lot of Salmonds plans were simply bluster in order to win votes. Take his plans to cut taxes which superficially may seem a good thing but any tax cut has to be handled with care and done incrementally. Salmonds idea just to do give massive tax cuts and oil rebates in his first year is just political spin to get him elected and would not be possible in reality.

#156 That is sinister.

May I remind both Scottish and English contibuters to this debate that the majority of Scots voted for the Union. Sorry but thats a fact. Plus one of the main policies of the SNP to have a referendum of Independance isn't going to happen. It will be interesting to see hoe good Salmond is as First Minister.

#168 AM2

A line in the sand? Surely the people of Scotland will decide where the line is drawn though?

It seems a large majority are in favour of more powers for Holyrood. Just becuase GB or the Labour party doesn't agree with the final destination some people want, why should they try to stop progress towards "changing the devolution settlement" as he puts it?

these qoutes make me sick. straw and westminster reckons he can talk down to holyrood and tell them they'll get no new powers, plus he talsk of picking fights. what kind of union is this!

also how can it be a fair and beneficial union when a scotsman has to pretend he's not scottish or interested in scottish politics or issues just to get in to power of the UK!

why do scots not see this rubbish for what it is and get out of this ridiculous union. We're the laughing stock of the world to be in such a ridiculous state.

#170 Martyn

Presumably then, since the majority of Scots also support more powers for Holyrood you are quite in favour of that too?

Second paragraph of Gerri Peev's article.

When broadsheet journalists decide to use the grand-sounding 'whom' instead of 'who', they ought to get it right.

OK, so he didn't phone. It happens all the time. In fact, it's the story of some girls' lives.... That's blokes for you....

166: Few times. I've also spoken to GB, TB and others from time to time and AS is the one I'd trust the most with my taxes.

Note that's THE MOST - I trust noone enough.

#175 Aye, Yolanda but it's wurse gettin calls frae blokes you don't want to talk tae...

170: We haven't voted in relation to independence. Unfortunately, around 70% of the population have just voted to have their MSP make the decision for them rather than voting against. The remaining sensible portion of the majority have realised that they would like a direct say in the decision.

170" I don't mind either way, even though I am a Conservative Unionist it is beginning to look a bit fragile. An English Parliament couldd be a realistic option, but personally I am not in favour of seperate parliaments or assemblies. Devolution has caused all these headaches, Labour only have themselves to blame for losing Scotland for the first time in 50 years. When you consider what some men and woman went through to preserve our way of life, democracy and 300 year old Union - they should be ashamed of themselves for wanting to destroy it. That's my view although I know it won't go down well with many Scottish folk- but that's why we live in a democracy and are able to have conflicting views.

Sorry majority should read minority

Brown is becoming a foreigner in his own beloved UK state; he will not be accepted by the English for very long, and his actions will never be forgottten by the Scots, many of whom see his (and Scottish Labour/LibDems) behaviour as rather xenophobic, even ultra UK nationalism. Brown's essential power base in Scotland is rapidly diminishing, partly as a consequence of his actions. He may be a unionist but he is also clearly a dedicated UK nationalist, as every unionist must by implication be. The great change with an SNP Salmond-led government is that Scottish ministers now have first and foremost a Scottish agenda to progress; conversely, any unionist party ministers within a Scottish Executive must always have a UK agenda to consider first, Scotland second.

“Congratulations” to anyone.
Do you really expect him? I saw SKY news and I got fed up of the Blaire and Bush meeting. Did they have to have show every second the climate, Qatar Air mist, Bush and Blaire, Rice and the party? Two stood together for the last time. Thank god.
Bush and Blair stand shoulder to shoulder for one last time
Thank you sir:
We are pleased with the farced wars, Dr.Blix, Robin Cook death, Twin Tower Blown, now the girl of 4 missing in Portugal.
Can we have some news fresh news?
I mean the SKY TV shows so much about the girl missing that I am dreaming about this. 15days. Thousands go missing but never have heard so much about one issue. I do sympathize with the missing girl, but do we have to have this for 15 day and every second, a break then again the interview, a wrong man caught then his friend.
Say this girl’s story and the pair of Bush and Blaire has me nights wondering. What is in the news?
Which paper do I buy?
At least there is one consolation.
Bush admitted he had taken Mr. Blaire foe a ride. HE WAS THE CAUSE OF THE RESIGNATION OF the PM. That is a good statement. Truth at last.
Thank you. Now can we part and start releasing the Iraqis and go further for the global warming.
In India and China, millions of children die daily. They are not made from human body?
This is not sarcasm. However, Brits seem to take the Arabs and other as the stooges of all.

Let hem come back from USA then w will ask him. Sir Where is the politeness?
Alternatively, you too sir forget after the votes, there are human beings who voted you?

I too feel that Brown's tenure in Downing Street will be brief and he will be replaced by Cameron. Will that make any real difference? I'm afraid the answer is NO! Cameron has done nothing but scrap long held Tory Polices since he won as their Leader. The latest to go was the Grammar Schools and support for Selective Education. This doesn't of course matter to Cameron or many of his allies who went to Eton and other Public Schools, they have had a good education, the best money could buy, so pull up the draw bridge and let the Proles rot in the "bog standard" Comprehensives as Blair called them (and his kids didn't go to one either).

Cameron has done to the Tories what Blair did to Labour, eviscerated it of its principles and replaced them with a worthless bauble, in Blair's case "Cool Britannia" in Cameron's all this inclusiveness and the Green nonsense.

Who will win the Westminster General Election in 2009 or possibly 2010? Brown or Cameron? WHO CARES! It really doesn't matter.

I not a labour supporter, but if gordon brown can deliver what he says he will e.g. more affordable houseing for first time buyers etc, a lot of people will vote labour at the next election, lets give man a chance.

May be he forgeot his cell phone number. It sir +144**#@^?345678987654312 with email. tony@bush.company.usa.rightwornghouse.edugone.nurding.org.gonetoo.hospital.org.medicinesnowfeakeinuk.indiachina.med.com
I do note it is a very lengthy address but they are big people. Power has the power behind it.

176: Swallowed a dictionary this morning? I bet you'd like to see corporate tax reduced. Anything to boost the post tax profits and increase the remmuneration...

It is a formality. You say thank you any one who talks to you nicely. Any one. Some says GOOD MORNING. You do not shout at hi, YOU say THANK YOU .That is politeness. I mean being too polite that one day you are in the gutter and you wonder who hit you. POLITE. Be polite man. In addition, learn how to say sorry. That is British.
Rest rubbish. Thank you. Sorry if I offended you but I am pleased you are reading this and taking it lightly not that I care. Thank you sir. You are so kind. That way.

#176 AM2

Who said that I believed that considering "specific additional powers to be advantageous doesn't logically flow into a desire for independence"?

I've never thought it was automatic... I don't buy the Tam Dalyell scenario that devolution is (necessarily) a slippery slope... though it is of course possible.

I do believe that some Unionists are in danger of helping independence along however by their attitudes and actions.

#188 You know I love you Firozali but yer email address has thrown everything askew...

#121,#117 Is het neit koniginedaag vangaag? Seg marr een gooi daag naar iedereen in Nederland. Nederland and Schottland waren voor jahren heel goede vrienden. Ik ben zecker dat in die toekomst zal Alec ga daar op bezoek nar de Nederlandse Regiering als Erste Minister van Schotand!

#186 Steve

I think the decision about grammar schools is the right one (much as I hate to give a pale imitation of Blair any credit...).

The evidence is there that Grammar schools don't do what even people as blinkered as the Tories want... so why support them?

People don't want "choic" in education, any more than they want it in hospitals. They want first class schools and hospitals in their local area... not league tables, deciding where to go, being bussed for miles, and class obsessed crypto public schools.

No wonder UK, and especially English, society is so class ridden!

#148, AM2

I'm sure non-nationalists don't see that way but I think it is wrong to suppose that Gordon Brown can just ignore Salmond. In fact, as he will be visiting Scotland over the next six weeks, I'd bet be meets Salmond. They will have to form a working relationship of some sort, otherwise Labour will be seen to be the spoilers and wreckers. After all, the SNP are our elected government.

195: It's never personal but perhaps a bit of thought for those who cannot afford the council tax as their income is so low - a local income tax would benefit the majority at the cost of a minority (who would only have an accountant hide the money anyway).

Lowering Corporation Tax benefits only the rich in the short term. Yes there is a longer term economic boost to the country but this would be at the cost of the general populace rather than the money grabbing hyper-capitalistic as the revenue from corporate tax would have to be raised by some other (less fair) means. I'm all for businesses making a buck or two but when we are faced with companies declaring multi billion pound profits then closing locations and threatening the livelihood of thousands then it's gone too far.

I'm missing something, obviously. Alex Salmond is Scotland's First Minister. Gordon Brown is still only the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Of course Douglas Alexander, as Secretary of State for Scotland, should call Alex Salmond to congratulate him. Maybe Tony Blair, as PM, should do so. But Gordon Brown? Wouldn't that be jumping the gun a wee bit? Did he phone Jack McConnell, I wonder?

198: TB is too busy closing off his relationship with Bush and getting ready for the book deal and the TV series. Ok, GB isn't the man necessarily responsible but neither is Mr Alexander (holder of a post that has no place in parliament).

Speaking of which, how can the powers that be (London) justify a Scottish Minister AND a Scottish Parliament? There is no need for a separate executive over and above the existing parliament. The MSPs are perfectly capable of handling national issue on Wesminster's behalf. (Sorry, old rant going back 8+ years :-))

Presumably Eck hasn't lifted the phone to congratulate Gordon on winning either.

The article say Gordon thinks of Alex "whom he believes is hell-bent on destroying the United Kingdom". I don't know why "believes" is in there - it is hardly a secret.

There isnt a hope in hell of the SNP passing any new bills without the help of the libs or labour, they can afford to pick and choose the ones they want, the snp and Alex look like a lame duck, blowing lots of hot air, achieving nothing at all., of coarse Gordons not going to congratulate Alex , there will be attempts to cold shoulder him and frustrate anything he does, thats because they can, he has a majority of 1 seat, all this election will show is how weak the SNP will look, if they can achieve anything then people will become dissillusioned with them, the Labour vote went down by 1% , they lost 4 seats only, despite being very unpopular, they must know that to gain a majority again would be quite easy, already labour are going up in the polls, if an election was held now, the SNP would lose their majority

Can I just point out that
Scotland is not a laughing stock anywhere in the world. The fact is scotland has historically been admired around the world for the Inventedness, Good Nature and overall ability of it's population to produce some of the worlds most creative ideas and Industries. there are Scots descendants all around the planet totally proud of the achivements of this small country. I don't think any of those people care a stuff that Gordon Brown has wormed his way into No 10. All eyes are on Alex Salmond who takes the pride of the Scots Nation into a new era. Gordon Brown on the other hand has climbed right to the top of a huge pile of steaming cow dung and he's welcome to it...

End of the day, Gordon Brown is leagues ahead of salmond as a politician. When you got your devolution all the best MP`s stayed down South and the dross were left up here. The rest were made up from councilors with big ideas. As I said that is why you have one SNP Minister holding down several ministerial posts. On a whole Scotland has very poor quality Politicians and Salmond knows it, thats why he cant trust the rest of dross that a quarter of the Scottish population voted for.

#203 Neil

..because it suits GB's purposes to see (and present) it in these terms. He can pose to the middle Englanders (those he needs on side to elect Labour) as a saviour of the Union.

It simply goes to show how short sighted many pro-unionists are. There is no realistic prospect of early independence, and both GB and AS are quite aware of the fact. It is all posturing.

If the Scottish people move towards a desire for independence, it is going to take some time. In spite of what many people say, the Scottish people are not stupid, or deluded, or subsidy junkies, or colonially oppressed by the nasty English.

They are only going to move at the pace they feel comfortable with. It seems most now want more devolution, but are still wary of early or rapid independence. It may be that however hard the pro-independence minority try, it will never happen.

I for one believe one thing strongly however, those in favour of the Union have to come up with a much more positive attitude in favour of maintaining the Union, rather than just slagging off the SNP and rubbishing the prospect of Scotland being able to survive as an independent state.

The status quo isn't an option... but unless the Unionists can make a case for people to actuall "like" the concept of the UK more than they currently do, I don't see it having a future in the long term.

As Matthew Clare would say,"If all you can see is the downside,who would want you in the team?"

#204 Craig

You are considerable more upbeat than most Labour supporters I've come across! ... but denial does seem to be the order of the day amongst most of your "co-religionists" in New (spits) Labour.

Labour are heading for a beating at the next election, and they know it. The best they can hope for is a coalition with the Lib-dems at Westminster, assuming all the little Englanders don't sweep Mr Cameron and "New" Conservatives to power in their own right.

It is however equally arguable that your scenario is wrong, and that the opposite will happen. Labour and their erstwhile Lib-Dem friends may find themselves worse off if they are seen to be either acting negatively, or making stable government impossible.

The electorate are quite capable of punishing parties they see as acting in their own, narrow political self interest, rather than in the general interest of Scotland. It isn't even outwith the realms of possibility that they will vote in future for an SNP majority, or majority led coalition, whilst ensuring that the result of any referendum is "no".

#197 Appreciate you interest, certainly you must be new to matters political, what a sad little effort, never mind you show promise and may get better with maturity.

"Its data is the lifeblood of investment bankers and millionaire traders who are the new aristocracy of the globalised economy. Increasingly, they are also advisers on government policy."

What a nice article for a Friday. A reminder that, for better or worse, the theories of that great Scot Adam Smith are somewhat more influencial today than those of Marx, Christ or possibly even Einstein!

can anyone remember a campaign in the '60's called "I'M BACKING BRITAIN" maybe we should have another, as the congress man from Alaska said the union of scotland and england has worked well for 300years, and is the envy of the world,men and women have given there lives to protect the uk, don't let it be all for nothing.

You know its an important debate when Firozali A.Mulla MBA PhD graces us with his own special brand of lucid wisdom.

THANK GOD SCOTLAND DOES'NT HAVE JACK FROM LABOUR IN POWER IN SCOTLAND ANYMORE. WE NEED AN NEED LEADER AND ALEX OF SNP IS THE RIGHT MAN FOR THE JOB. I JUST HOPE THAT SCOTLAND WILL ONE DAY GET FULL INDEPENENCE AND BE FREE OF LONDON, ENGLAND. Why don't the Scots do more in a way of standing up for Scottish interests and every thing Scottish!

#185 langtonian
get a life you sorely need one

personally i do not believe Alec salmond is an honorable scot he freely took an oath to the crown

I do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, Her Heirs and Successors, according to Law. So help me God

MSP oath

when he and his party have stated their primary allegiance is to Scotland so one has to impute his veracity of statement.

whereas a more honest and honorable scot would have told them were to stuff it i suggest

still he has become the first minister and i congratulate him and his party on their victory
but i await the time when he is treated like tony blair
by those who praise him now and who will later condemn him with equal vigor and much bile and Scottish bile is the worst believe me.

this is called democracy

#208 - Ha, Ha, until this week the Blairites had the daggers out for Gordon Brow and leaking stories about how "unfit and unstable" he is....times have changed not enough Labour MP's have the balls to stand up against him.

I look forward to seeing how Salmond rips Brown a "new one" if he ever goes down to PM Questions...

... c'moan Alex git o'er it ...!
You expect a bunch of Uncle Tom losers and "couldnae wouldnae huvnae shouldnae merchants" to wish you bon voyage dae ye matey??
The best thing furr oor English cousins tae dae izz gee yon cheap-jack garbage numpty who cannae even face a leadership contest cos his panties urr fu' o' keech at the very prospect of anything vaguely democratic ... a BIG KISS GOODBYE ... the same applies tae oor American cousins o'er the water ... dae ye really want "Yesterday's Man" like Gordie Broon for yer new Furrin Meenister???
c'moan ... ditch these Uncle Tom hijo putas ... por favor ahora mismo!!

Brown will never be an elected PM. The English are going to boot him oot at the next general election.

Did anybody note that Mr Brown had a conservative blue tie on yesterday,I wonder if his red one will only now get an airing when meeting unions etc.
If he wants to stay in, he will have to appeal to all, watch out for the tartan waistcoat,cloth cap,etc with gay accessories,which will all be recyclable of course.

189 Sam Mond

Let me tell you a story:

Mr Bun is a baker and bakes 100 cakes a day (this is his capacity). If he sets his prices too high he has wastage and if set too low there is excess demand, so Mr Bun sets his price so that he can sell 100 cakes a day.

Along come kind old uncle Alex who decreases tax too rapidly and all of a sudden everyone is £1,000 better off. Hooray for uncle Alex everone says.

However people start saying that they have excess money so they want more cakes but Mr Bun cannot increase his supply so he will raise his prices to cope with the increased demand. Furthermore his suppliers have done the same as they to have an increased demand. (This is pure inflationary growth and not actual economic growth)

So Mr Bun decides that he wishes to buy a new oven to bake more cakes. (This is real economic growth) BUT his friend Mr Cook who sells ovens has also raised his prices due to excess demand. So Mr Bun being a shrewd man decides to look to England to purchase his oven as they are not under the same inflationary pressure. So Mr Bun purchases his oven from an English supplier. Therefore Scottish Money leaves the economy (not good for Scotland)

The morale of the story: Tax cuts are not bad but they have to be done carefully and incrementally (as I said in my post of 167.) If tax cuts are too rapid then it will lead to inflation outstripping any real economic growth. Leading to an import lead economy, damaging any business that relies on exporting to England as its primary source of business. Real Economic growth has to be carefully managed by careful tax cuts to stop the economy overheating.

Sam Mond please think about these things before making comments like "swallowed a dictionary" I was trying to point out that tax cuts should be handled with care and cannot be done friviously.

It was the SNP who voted against the Callaghan government in 1979 and the rest is history.

oy oy oy #224 ... you are no really surprised (and to paraphrase Hazel Squears again) "shocked and stoooohh-ned" ... were you matey ... c'moan!
Who was the first person (as in New Labour's Best Pal) to be invited to Numero 10 in 1997 after Blair goat elected ... that is right it wuzz the Magatollah Thatcheri ... so blue ties ... c'moan yesterdays news matey!!

#226 prestonpans

And your point is.....?

Churlish and unstatesmanlike behaviour from Brown. I've always had a very poor opinion of Blair but you'll find that Brown is just as devious and sly, if not more so, than Blair. And another thing, it seems to me that all conciliation is coming from Salmond. Precious little creeping over the Border from Westminster. Brown, Labour, Scottish Labour, Lib Dems et al will do everything in their power to scupper Salmond and the SNP. A fair crack at the whip won't be coming their way, that's for sure. All power to you Mr. Salmond!!

#230 Preposterous insults from you Florence. Why on earth should Brown phone Salmond? He's the Chancellor, not the Prime Minister.

#229 - The point was tat grudges take a long time to overcome. (But lefts forget the Winter of Discontent , Rampant Union abuse of power and the fact that the 40% rule was impose on the referendum by Labour which f***** up any result! and caused the SNP to vote against the government! – the Tories AND the Liberals alos ted the government out – but no lets just blame the SNP!)

Some folk have VERY selective memories.

How many nationalist morons are there posting to this site every day? Do you really believe that what you write comes across as anything other than very obvious and very dull Nat propaganda?

Why should Gordon Brown pick up the phone to congratulate Alex Salmond? Is that not the job of either the head of state (the Queen) or the head of government (the Prime Minister)?

Salmond is an excellent politician and spinner. His line here is to imply that Gordon Brown has somehow snubbed him by not calling, even though a) its not his job (yet) and b) he is slightly involved with other things at the minute.

We are goig to have a diet of this crap all the way until the next Scottish elections.

#231 - He is prime minister designate a call would not have gone amiss, but he posses the usual labour arrogance.

Brown is such an arrogant SOB!
It doesnt take much to just pick up the phone and be civil. You dont have to agree on SNP policies, or there aims and objectives, but at the end of the day they foght a good fight and like it or not they won!
Its pure arrogance to state ' a call to Mr Salmond .. from Douglas Alexander, "our Secretary of State for Scotland," would suffice!. First this implies that the Secretary of State for Scotland is more powerful than the Scottish Government, which the post (which shouldnt actually exist) is not!. Secondly it appears that it would be to demeaning for him to call as its beneath him, so he got Douglas Alexander to do it. If this is the style and method of Gordon Brown's premiership is going to be , then god help us!
Its interesting that after ALL the visits to Scotland during the election, he just cant be bothered to follow up, by calling Alex Salmond
The writing on the wall, there will be conflict between Westminster and Holyrood, but contrary to Labours pre election campaigning, it will not be SNP that will be responsible, it will be purely down to Labour and down to Gordon Brown specifically!

BRING OAN HAZEL SQUEARS AND THE WEASELS ...
Gordie Broon won't be long in Numero 10 ... re-runs of Iain Duncan-Smith ... as in el senor numpty and the ephemeral craze!!
Hopefully their mates in Florida will build an extension furr Gordie next to the other Labour Uncle Tom dug-boaxes a la casa de Tony y Cherie ... lets face it the poor wee man will need somewhere to retire in the sun ... Guid Riddence Gordie ... shut the door when ye go pal!

#233 Facts as a blunt weapon
Considering the amount of time that Blair and Brown spent visiting Scotland during the Election (I wonder when either of them will visit next??)
It doesnt take time to follow up and for EITHER of them to call and congratulate Alex Salmond
The fact is that Gordon Brown publicly snubbed Alex Salmond, by stating that he had his Secretary of State for Scotland call Alex Salmond
He may not officially be Prime Minister, but Gordon is sure as hell pretending he is,a s he is now Prime Minister Elect, sorry he wasnt elected, Prime Minister nominate. Exactly how busy is Gordon Brown?, Were only talking about a 15 minute call (at the most)
By the way Im a Labour supporter thats fed up with the way Labour behaved during and now after the election!

#236 - Exactly, manners cost nothing.

#233 The term "moron" was orginally a medical condition related to low IQ. However, mate, you an IDIOT, a term for a person with an even lower IQ!

There will be a General Election in two years time , maybe less. It will be interesting to see if Gordon Brown can hold onto his seat. There is a likelyhood that he will loose, which will be the funniest thing ever, especially if Labour in general scrape back in, but then again, there isnt any guarantee that will happen either

225: Thanks for the Macro economics lesson. The 'swallowed a dictionary' comment was for AM2 who has, in case you hadn't noticed, been using some awfully complex language lately.

I am well aware of the pros and cons of taxation and its economic weight. The point I was trying to make (obviously poorly) is thatdropping the Corporation Tax is just as dangerous as changing any other taxation. In order to balance this out, the ordinary working man would then be further taxed leaving the corporations to spend, spend, spend (or pay directors and executives) leading to inflationary effects that require a change in taxation (or interest rates) again affecting the wee man...

Small businesses, on the other hand, have to do far more businesss than their larger counterparts to make proportional profit. add to this that large corporations avoid most of the taxation by good accountancy (or cooked books in some cases) and offshore holdings. The little man gets screwed in every case.

GB will only be PM for a few year. The English people want an English PM not a Scot.
Scotland should get more Powers for the Scottish Parliament. I think if Scotland do not Demand independice Scotland will have a Tory Government soon?

AM2, #####
first of all may I wholeheartedly apologize for my error in diction yesterday, trenchant should have read as entrenched, as in you are an entrenched non-nationalist mindless follower etc…, I hold my hands up here and now, and confess my sin of not checking out the accuracy of one of your earlier posts without proceeding. My mistake in all honesty was to trust the integrity of your agreed stance that you were an ‘Entrenchant non-unionist to really mean you were an ‘Entrenched non-unionist’, seeing ‘Entrenchant’ doesn’t really exist. I see now though you must have realized the unjustifiable position you had put yourself in, with all the connotations associated, so surreptitiously exchanged ‘Entrenchant’ for a more ego stroking word ‘Trenchant’ which fortunately being also very close to ‘Entrenchant’ could so easily be passed without much inspection. Your only mistake here is the context, as the person who wrote the post saying you were an ‘Entrenchant non-unionist’ was clearly attacking you for your view point, and not congratulating you for your incisiveness. The thing is, you would have gotten away with your little deception I think, if you had only not alerted me to my error.

208"End of the day, Gordon Brown is leagues ahead of salmond as a politician. When you got your devolution all the best MP`s stayed down South and the dross were left up here. "
Aye yer havin a laugh there son..Have ye seen the Labour back benches??Canon fodder the lot of them..couldnae string a coherent sentence together to save their pathectic little lives.All products of the failed Labour housing experiment in the late fifties/ early sixties last century.Yer livin in a bubble..this is the 21st century!!

How to get rid of the most biased political commentator ever...BRIAN TAYLOR??
This man is so obviously Labour that when asked on a radio programme today about SNP directives ,he again seized the opportunity to hark on about his favourite subject Mcconnell and co, whom he announced were not the opposition but a government "in waiting"
The BBC should take steps to repace this man.

Aye there's a lot o' Soor Grapes bein sooked at the moment especially by the Labourites.

Broon should hae hid the common decency to call the new 1st Minister and offer his personal congratulations.

AND - this is awe coz 'WE WON'

The Fib. Dems. are in the huff.

The Tories are delighted they got a couple o' seats.

The Greens saw sense,Margo Mac is ower the moon coz she wis re-elected and the Scottish people have hid the common sense to reject the Socialists and the BNP.

The dirty tricks brigade fae London will soon be trying all they can to discredit Alex Salmond BUT he's fit tor them.

CONGRATULATIONS Alex Salmond ye did good!

Onwards and upwards Scotland!!!

JockH

Facts as a blunt weapon., #233.
'How many nationalist morons are there posting to this site every day?'
I would say, copared with the number of unionists, almost zero.

Surely this can all be avoided by Tony Blair picking up the phone as he is still the PM. As for Labour to treat the Scottish Parliament so insignificantly both during the election and with shool playground antics afterwards, just shows how out of touch and arrogance they treat Scotland

Sam Mond

Agreed - Although as someone that works in Jersey you'd be surprised at how little business we get from the UK as Gordon Brown has every loophole sown up tighter than a duck's @rse.

Jack McConnell and Wendy Alexander banging there desks yesterday in the parliament like little school kids, is that really the level of parliamentary debate we want??? - there only excuse is they are still in denial and do not know how to behave in opposition!!!

#231 Duncan

Wrong he is the "Next Prime Minister". Did no-one bother to tell you?

#251

they had to sow up the ducks @rse because Gordon has already sent the tax man up there just incase any cash was stashed

I note the Hootsmon uses the term "detsroying the United Kingdom".What Salmond is doing(and only when the people approve) is re establishing the nationhood of Scotland, which is older than the United Kingdom, and England for that matter. Emotive clap trap does little to salvage this toilet roll from the gutter .
The United Kingdom will continue presumably in some other form,(unless Wales follows suit etc)so nothing will have been destoyed as such,it will merely have been returned to its previous legitimacy.
I suspect that if New Labour were to hold on to marginals in the South of England (big if)she would indeed have a better chance of a fourth term, but it would only happen if Brown continues with Blairs right wing agenda which would probably mean that Scotland would again swing to the SNP and Northern Enmgland might see a few seats fall to the Liberals. The composition of the UK parliament depends upon the total result,not what the South of England does /thinks! A newspaper claiming to be Scottish should not need this explained to it!

#246 - What, no witty riposte?

#235 "Prime Minister designate"? That's a good one - any other titles you would like to just make up?

I love the 'like it or not they won' line. Nobody wins in a PR system - they got one more vote and one percent more of the vote than Labour.

SNP spin spin spin spin spin spin spin spin spin spin

c'moan ...
really?
Here is a wee fast forward for you to 2017 ...
The scene ... "Couldnae wouldnae huvnae shouldnae" retirement dug-boaxes in Florida ... a.k.a. New Labour Darby and Joan Club ...
Wee Joke McC and Gordie "keechy-panties" Broon are reminiscing the glory days of the 1990's
wee Jack: "Naw Gordie ahh wuzz a big bag o' mierde than you wurr pal ... I actually believed the Scots were styoooohh-pit!"
Gordie "couldnae face a leadership contest" Broon: "Naw Jack yer wrang so ye urr ... I am the wan who financed the gig pal ... so ahh kidded the Scottish peeeopil oan mair than you did pal!"

... to be continued

#257 so you are another one that is on planet Zanussi and says labour did not lose and did extremely well.
If SNP are all spin surely they learnt that from labour who are all spin and no substance

#238 You're an upset Labour supporter? Tough. You are going to get a lot more upset in the coming months.

#239 "The term "moron" was orginally a medical condition related to low IQ." I got that one right about the neddy Nats on here then.

"However, mate, you an IDIOT, a term for a person with an even lower IQ!" Can't you spell? Don't you have proper grammar?

I repeat my points but feel free to ignore them again in favour of your Nat spin. Why should Gordon Brown pick up the phone to congratulate Alex Salmond? Is that not the job of either the head of state (the Queen) or the head of government (the Prime Minister)?

Salmond is an excellent politician and spinner. His line here is to imply that Gordon Brown has somehow snubbed him by not calling, even though a) its not his job (yet) and b) he is slightly involved with other things at the minute.

SNP spin spin spin spin spin spin spin spin spin spin

#259 Can't you read? I didn't say Labour did not lose and did extremely well, I simply pointed out the result. The SNP are merely the largest (by one seat) minority party.

So that's ok then. We are all completely sick of political spin but if the Nats do it its alright, regardless of where they learned it?

SNP spin spin spin spin spin spin spin spin spin spin

#260 blunt weapon

You don't have to be a raving nationalist to think that it would have been simple good manners for GB to have contacted AS. all this clap trap about it "not being his place" is simply evasion.

Brown is going to be (God help us all!) the next PM, and will therefore have to deal with AS in the coming years... unless of course an election comes sooner than we think and the crypto-tory is bundled out of office as he so richly deserves.

It's not SNP spin, and you repeating it over and over again doesn't make it any more true.

By not offering congratulations GB looks petulant, small minded, and ungracious. Sooo.. about right then..?

#261 blunt

You seem confused... on the one hand, you agree Labour didn't win, on the other, you disagree that the SNP won?

Of course, no party got an absolute majority, whether of seats or votes... but if you can look at the result and spin it as naything other than an SNP win, you intellect is as blunt as your profile ID!

#260 ...
I gather that you are an expert at calculating precession frequencies???
The only SPINnnin' we need right now is the whole tragic New Labour project spinning in its grave ... where it belonged in 1996 actually matey ...

I look forward with glee to our English and Welsh cousins giving Blair /Brown / Hazel Squears / and ony ither pathetic "couldnae wouldnae huvnae shouldnae merchant the bum's rush asap!!

I am actually surprised the New Labour project has taken this length of time on its seemingly painfully slow downward trajectory ... but ohh hey SPLASH ... it will hit the drink fairly soon now

How can Gordon Brown possibly justify his position on preventing a referendum on self-determination for the ancient nation of Scotland when at the same time in Northern Ireland, under the 1998 Belfast Agreement, Section One, it says that British state formally recognises “the legitimacy of whatever choice is freely exercised by a majority of the people of Northern Ireland with regard to its status.”?

Schedule One of the Belfast Agreement allows the Secretary of State to hold a referendum on Northern Ireland leaving the UK. The Agreement says that the Secretary of State “shall” exercise this power “if at any time it appears likely to him that a majority of those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to be a part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland.”

Schedule One also allows for repeat referendum polls on this issue every seven years and says “Clearly, too, the timing of a united Ireland referendum will be decided by the expressed will of any future Irish Nationalist majority and not by the state.”

Scotland's distinctive national status is unambiguous and its people deserve the chance to decide if they want to manage their own affairs and resources .

#260 - Why NOT pick up the phone?

Labour don't spin do they?? They only tell the truth, and never exaggerate or distort the facts. They didn't lose the election but down sized their MSP level.

#253 In what possible sense am I wrong? He is the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Which is what I said. Christ you people would say black was white if it made you feel better.

There is no reason for the Chancellor to be expected to have any dealings with the First Minister of Scotland whatsoever. I imagine if Salmond is reading any of this he is embarrassed by the idiocy of his supporters.

#267 Duncan

It's not a matter of his current position. Barring a few weeks, he is to all intents and purposes "PM elect"... Bliar is just marking time.

It would cost GB nothing to phone, and be a little more gracious. Nobody is saying they have to agree about things or be best mates... but they are going to have to interact, and it will be an important relationship for the governance of Scotland.

If you can't see either the "common decency" or the "future relationship" angle, people will simply assume that you are another of the dull fanatics so prevalent on both the unionist and nationalist sides!

#268 But it is simply a false premise. Why shouldn't Salmond ring Brown? Why should he? Should Brown ring the new Welsh FM once he/she is selected? Why?

This is nothing more than a trumped up piece of nonsense being flown by the SNP to try to show Brown in a bad light. It has simply served to show Salmond in a bad light, because there is no substance whatever to the complaint. Of course he has been careful to avoid making the point himself, so that he can remain aloof from it, but there is no doubt that this is an SNP spin story and it is utterly meritless.

Fabulous lack of attachment to truth, facts or reality on this board.

You should be complaining about Blair not picking up the phone because he is the PM. You are complaining about Brown because that is the SNP spin line. You could complain about Brown after he becomes PM if he fails to conduct civil relations with Salmond. Otherwise you are talking pure unadulterated Nat cobblers.

#262 there is actually a stronger argument for Salmond having to pick up the phone to Brown once Brown becomes PM since Salmond is the incumbent in office. Unless of course you think that PM is a bigger and more important post than FM?

#263 what do you define as winning? In a PR system do you regard the largest single party as the winners? If so, then the SNP won by one seat. But the whole point of a PR system is to proportionally reflect voter intentions - I agree that Labour did very badly compared to their previous position but if we are talking about what the voters who voted in this election said, essentially they were saying we don't fully trust any of you and SNP and Labour are equally popular or unpopular.

#264 get some education

#266 Because its not his job to pick up the phone. By your logic Alasdair Darling, Des Browne, and any other UK Minister with a Scottish constituency should have been picking up the phone to congratulate Salmond. Presumably you imagine that Salmond should also be picking up the phone to the likes of Jenny Dawe in Edinburgh to congratulate her and all other council leaders in Scotland.

Get a life. This is Nat spin pure and simple. The object is to attack Brown as part of a broader drive to put a wedge between London and Scotland and any means will do.The fact that the media slavishly lap it up and camp dogs like the fools on here parrot it too doesn't make it any less artificial, contrived and pathetic. This is the political diet from the Nats until their minority administration falls apart.

SNP spin spin spin s

Broon was probably too busy keeping tabs on Blair. The puir wee soul is terrified that his former master will find some last minute trick to keep him out of No. 10.

Ring Ring...

AS "Ah, hello? First Meenister here"

GB "Uh, hi. Listen, I really want Scotland back"

AS "Ah, sorry, no can do, haven't finished with it yet"

GB "Awww gonnae just geez it back?"

AS "Naw, it's my turn so get lost. Get your own Best Small Country in the Word!"

GB "Can I no even just hold it for a while?"

AS "Please leave your name, number and message after the tone and nobody will get back to you, ever".

Slam!

#272 Did you imagine that was witty when you wrote it?

#269 Duncan

It's NOT a false premise. It is custom and practice, as well as simple good manners, for someone newly elected to be congratulated on his new position. It's not implying that you agree with his policies or party, or that you aren't spitting tacks that the guy beat your party.

Given the current situation with GB and Bliar, it wouldn't be unreasonable to hear GB had called AS.. as I said above, simple manners and their future need to work together both suggest it would be the right thing to do. (Not of course that doing the right thing comes naturally to New Labour).

It's not some SNP conspiracy, and only a paranoid Labour apparatchik in denial would insist that it was.

GB wouldn't appear to NEED any help in looking bad. Hopefully he won't be in power long enough to mess things up like thatcher's pale imitation Tony Blair.

What's it got to do with you?

Bit of a non-story, there's no reason why the Chancellor of the Exchequer should congratulate the new First Minister and there's no indication that Mr. Salmond was expecting such a thing, far less being offended by the lack thereof. So why are the Scotsman printing this article?
Scottish Labour have had a big shock. Not only have they lost an election for the first time in 50 years or so but they have lost control of local government except Glasgow and N. Lanarkshire. There were signs in the FM election that Scottish Labour have started to absorb and adjust. Perhaps if they get a new leader we will get a more constructive attitude, Jack McConnell hasn't come across very well.
Mr. Brown will likely last only 2 years, the comparison with Tony Blair's 10 years will show who was the 'better' and more successful politician. Like it or not, Gordon Brown's Scottishness is an electoral liability. When he loses in 2009 Labour will choose an English MP to battle a Conservative Party that has turned to English nationalism. Scottish Labour will rediscover their preference for self-determination for Scotland. Alex Salmond will get cross party backing for some kind of referendum on further powers for Holyrood. The countries of the UK will continue to diverge, hopefully in a reasonably positive manner. Just one scenario so would be interested to hear others.

270.
It's a pity that this website doesn't allow you to de-register a name, because you would be welcome to have mine. It's far more decriptive of your endless ranting than your own moniker. Unless you were being ironic, of course.

Ironic? No. Moronic? Yes.

Now that was wittty and slightly acerbic.

#274 Salmond WAS congratulated on his new position by the Scottish Labour leader Jack McConnell. He congratulated him with some graciousness and Salmond responded in kind.

The entirely false premise is that any such congratulations should come from Brown. There is simply no argument for it.

McConnell: should have done, and did.
Alexander: would be good manners, and he did.
Blair: would be making quite a statement, chose not to.
Brown: would be none of his business.

#273
Dave's post was funny when I read it, you humourless waste of bandwidth.

#270 blunt

Bliar is already yesterday's man. Nobody is listening to him anymore.. altho you are right, he should have done the right thing (fat chance..) and called to pass on his congratulations.

The wedge being driven between Scotland and England has more to do with successive governments (both Tory and Labour) being seen as acting contrary to the interests of Scotland... if the Union dies off, much of the responsibility will lie with the lack of imagination amongst unionists for making it seem relevant to the scottish electorate.

Can't cater to everybodies taste Hissy fit, was only trying to bring a light relief to the heavy discussion to allow people to gather thoughts and take a break.

However, I thank you very much for your compliment (I'm not a woman and readily accept them of course).

#270 ... yer quite a wee bitter twisted person yersel ...
TRUTH ... Labour LOST
TRUTH ... ain't LOSER like a sad twisted wan ...
Get a swatch at the coupons of wee Joke McC AND Bendy Wendy Alexander ...
Losers ... jist like Broon (the man who cannae even face an election for leadership o' his ane Pairty) ... will soon be papped oot oan their ears ... I wonder how shocked and stooooohh-ned Hazel Squears will be then ehh?

251: Sorry - out running.

That bad in Jersey, huh? The Man's got a lot to answer for. (as in put it to the Man etc. not GB personally)

:-)

#277 Facts, argument, logic, reason? No, I didn't think so.

The new scottish politics which has spent eight years maturing since the start of devolution is a social democratic soup in which everyone tries to out pander everyone else to every interest grooup and where, having got rid of Sheridan et al, the debate will now become shortbread tin nationalism versus bad London. What a sorry excuse for genuine discourse and debate.

I can't wait to see the images from the Nat rally at Bannockburn this year. It should be hilarious to watch every one of the weird and wonderful camp followers who really believe that their day has come marching around to the Brigadoon tunes and events inside their heads.

Now off back to your play group B&T.

SNP spin spin spin spin spin spin spin spin spin spin

"Labour will quickly condemn as "irresponsible" any SNP move to alter the devolution settlement"

A large majority of Scots, in polls and in voting at the last election, expressed support for parties whose agenda included constitutional change. In fact the Labour Party was the only major player who did not.

- Now who's being "confrontational?

#285 ... change the CD pal ... a wee bit oan the cowerin' timorous beastie SIDE ... and tedious too matey ... c'moan ... whits yer name really ... or are you jist anither Nooohh Labour LOSER ... did ye stand for the election yersel like they ither budgies oan Labour tickets who LOST?

You're welcome Dave. No doubt our unamused interlocutor is now composing a bombastic 1000 word rebuttal to my interjection, proving to his own self-important satisfaction that you and I are irredeemably frivolous and beneath his contempt.

#204

Craig, You still don't get it do you?

Your post says it all about why New Labour is losing the plot.

Hope over Fear, or
Fear over Hope.

If Labour don't prove that they can be a hell of a lot more positive and decent in the Scottish Parliament then I wont just be lending my Labour vote to the SNP.

Craig, PLEASE go and have a think about why Labour lost this election and why the SNP won it?

People like me are thoroughly fed up with the way Labour have been behaving, and here is my news to you.... If New Labour don't raise their game, and ESPECIALLY if New Labour do as you suggest at Hollyrood, then it won't be 4 seats New Labour lose at the next election. They will lose over a dozen and end up being beaten by the LibDems in seat numbers.

Fortunately for Labour I think that there are some serious minds working out what Labour did wrong and how to put on a decent fist of things next time around.

#286 What constitutional change, other than a reduction in the number of MSPs, did the Tories advocate?

# 283 do you sit with a tartan bunnet, fake ginger hair, a red nose and a wee dram talking this garbage to yourself or do you do it in company?

# 281 good points and I'm inclined to agree.

#278 "Ironic? No. Moronic? Yes. Now that was wittty and slightly acerbic." Much better, pithy and amusingly abusive.

Hissy Fit, you need to get out more often.

SNP spin spin spin spin spin spin spin spin spin spin

bang ... clunk SPLASH ...!
Whit wuzz yon noise?
Aw jist the torpedo hittin' the good ship New Labour below the water-line ...
Glug glug glug!!
Learn to swim ya pathetic bunch o' Uncle Tom LOSERS!!

272: Excellent
273: Get a life and have a laugh. "Bitter and twisted and Cynical... in the 21st Century" (to quote Mike Peters)

285.
The only fact I posess that is relevant to this discussion is that you are the most tedious and pompous of narrow-minded windbags.

#292 Zoom why do you think I am a unionist and which bit of humble pie exactly do you think I should have swallowed that I haven't?

What is the difference between a unionist moderate, a unionist and a unionist extremist?

#289 Angus

Hear, hear!

Nice to see someone being constructive on here for a change!

I'm not convinced "New" (pass the sick bag please...) Labour has actually seen the light yet... but there might be hope.

If not... it will be interesting to see what happens in the future..!

SNP may be a minority but so are Labour. With 47 seats the Executive can get a majority with the support of the Greens (2) and either Conservatives (16) or LibDems (16). The Conservatives should support the SNP's pro-business policies, the LibDems should support Local Income Tax, provided Mr. Salmond brings those parties 'on board'. The Conservatives and LibDems have both indicated they will support Executive policies if they agree with them.

296: About 3 seats and a half dozen brain cells...

#291 ... HAHAHAHAH
oHH HEY PAL YER NEVER ALONE WAE A CLONE EHH?
Wake up and smell the coffee #291
Our English and Welsh cousins will eventually.
But then I guess folks liken yersel got used tae wearin' pokey hats at school huh?
Ohh and bye the way ... mah hair is broon actually its no red ... dae ye thing mah middle name is Geri Haliwell?
Aw naw she died in 1996 tae!!

mad broon is the best thing that has happened to scotland.that traitorous blaggard will never get voted in,in england.the tories will win the westminster election,leaving the gate wide open for scottish independence.to hell wi yer union jack,we want our country back!up wi king james and donald macgillavery!

#291. I need to get out more often?

Count the number of words you and I have both posted on this thread and ask that question again!

Anyway, you can't argue with a sick mind. I'm off to the pub for a blether with some sensible folk. Does that count as getting out more often?

#257 Facts as a blunt weapon
You say ‘Nobody wins in a PR system - they got one more vote and one percent more of the vote than Labour’
That’s especially true when Douglas Alexander was responsible for 142000 votes being wasted (I expect you will deny this)
What is interesting is that on the Constituency vote SNP got 32.9% of the vote (that’s 664,227 votes) and got 21 seats and Labour got less at 32.2% of the vote (that’s 648,374 votes) yet managed to get 37 seats!, not quite PR, more like first past the post and very disproportionate!
If it the Constituency vote had truly been based on vote percentage, then SNP would have had 25 seats, Labour 24, Conservatives 13 and Libdems 11
If anyone should feel aggrieved it’s the Tories who ended up with only 4 seats
No doubt you will argue that playing around with the figures, you can achieve differing results, but that’s exactly what Labour and Labour supporters like you are doing!

# 295 I don't need your moniker, you are clearly well named and will need it yourself. Were you not taught how to make an argument? Are facts tedious inconveniences for you? What are you, one of Tommy's people?

#294 I like a laugh as much as the next 'bitter unionist' but I just thought it wasn't that funny. Now if I was a Nat I would probably find it hilarious, just like I would think the Alexander brothers were high art and tartan wallpaper the height of interior decor taste.

#301 Good Lord, it's a bona fide Braveheart Nat. Ahoy there! You being allowed out again now that the election is "won"?

#Facts as a Blunt Weapon:

Prat, Prat, Prat, Prat, Prat.....

(Repeat it often enough it might stick - is that your plan with the spin, spin, spin....?)

I know who will create the most spin over the next view months, it'll be GB and the labour machine...the truth will never come into like, just like Iraq. (Oh, Sorry, GB kept his head down when that all kick off eh, him and his party are unfit to govern)

Facts as tedious verbosity
"the Alexander brothers"???
Do you mean Douglas and Wendy?

#303 Go and read up about how the Scottish Parliamentary elections work. The constituency part of the election IS first past the post! The regional votes are combined with the constituency votes to bring things more into line. That's why it's called the TOP UP system.

#298 IWright

I do find it interesting that despite the logic of the system adopted for Holyrood virtually guaranteeing coalitions, both Labour and the Lib-Dems have acted so petulantly since the election.

Hopefully when things calm down, and the smoke of battle begins to blow away, people in the other parties will begin to see sense.

There is no reason a minority administration can't work, on much the basis that IWright puts forward. All sides need to compromise, nobody is going to get everything they want.

With luck the Scottish people are slightly more mature than those politicos who are threatening to take their metaphorical ball home and not play anymore.

Duncan in Edinburgh - "Sheesh, if you people had your way Salmond would spend his entire time fielding congratulatory phonecalls from the UK cabinet. Grow up.

Nobody is that bothered the he didn't phone Alex Salmond. It just happens to be that the Scotsman had nothing better to publish today and people are happy to comment.

And as for this "the most successful Chancellor the UK has ever had, one of the brightest men in politics and a man who has championed the redistribution of wealth on a global scale has my absolute support."

Pass me a sick bag too.

#308 - and the FPTP system exaggerated the number of seats Labour won, which the Top Ups could not even out.

We want AMS!

I just want to thank all the Trots and Nats on this board who have provided so much entetrtainment today. On every occasion you have demonstrated your ignorance of facts and utter contempt for truth. I love it. I am becoming more and more pesuaded that we have now got the government we deserve.

Edward, are you aware that every party in Scotland with the exception of the Tories asked for the ballot papers to be set out in precisely this way. But that's bad of me, i'm introducing facts into the debate again. other wise I accept your argument on seats. The electoral system is garbage and you can skew the outcome pretty much any way you like depending on what ludicrous verion of STV you go for.

SNP spin spin spin spin spin spin spin spin spin spin

#304 ... yer posts are actually relatively humourous and entertaining!!
Q. How did it get blunt onywayes?
multiple choice answers ..
1. Ye were bashin' it aff the keech stained wall of Nooo Labour
2. It wuzz nivir sharp tae start wae!
3. none of the above.

See when yer skool-teacher gave yon pokey hat yer wearin' ... did she write "Lacks ambition!" as her final comment on yer Report Caird as she slung ye oot the door??

#312- "I just want to thank all the Trots and Nats on this board"...that statement exposes you for the prat your are, we havne had a Trot problem here for years. Go away and read the Beano, if its not too advanced for you.

#313 glad to be of service, have I discovered a Nat on here with a sense of humour?

304.
"Were you not taught how to make an argument?"

What you practice is not argument, but simple refutation. The true spirit of debate consists in building upon another's observations, not constantly seeking to overturn them. However, this cannot work with utterly bigoted individuals like you, thus I have not even bothered to try.

Now, get mummy to gather up all the toys you've thrown from your pram and take you home.

305-marchin through the heilands wi rifles and wi gas,terrorising women as they are comin out of mass,a shower of red coat blaggards we never will forget,thank god the jacobite army is not beaten yet.

#314 i actually think that an SNP minority govt is the best thing to happen in years. It will help to properly define politics and political differences.

# 315 haven't had a Trot problem for years? Do you really think Trots die and give up? They just metamorphose into something else but carrying the same bitter, envious, toytown politics with them. Now let me see, which way did most trots cave this election? Oh yes it was the SSnp. Frankly I'm surprised you can spell Beano.

Brown is not wanting to look too Scottish, heavens that might put the frighteners on the Labour voters! He said he was British etc etc and he can't be seen as patting the non Labour First Minister on the back and stating ' away you go wee man, well done!' The English nationalists may miscontruse this and he'd loose support. One thing old Golden Brown isn't, and that's stupid and neither is the Boy Salmond. Oh to be the fly on the wall one the non toady First Minister meets with the Prime Minister !

#321 Erm, okay. My point (yesterday) was that when you call the Netherlands "Holland" it is exactly like calling the UK "England". Do you disagree?

312: I love all of your 'facts'. I think it's great that you've spent so much time researching the labour party website and listening to the media and reading the national press. You might even qualify for a PhD in Joke's education policy.

Papers were to be set out in the format provided - BUT there was no agreement on one or two sheets. That was the decision of his loyal highness Dougie A...

#323 that it only happens if the people of Scotland democratically vote for it?

#319 - I'm sorry but you sound like some mad Daily Mail reader. No one talks about "Trots" like that anymore.

322: The Netherlands were politically known as Holland at one time - until PC kicked in.

Scotland has never been England (despite some sad monarch's attempt to make it so about 700 years ago)

GERRI PEEV??? That's a made-up name. And an article that's made-up too.

#324 ho, ho, ho have you got a shock coming when the enquires do their work. There are going to be some, very, very eggy SNP chins after this.

Still, perhaps you can get Mr Gibson to give the enquiry some love, or Mr T to........well let's just not go there shall we?

SSNP spin spin spin spin spin spin spin spin spin

#325 blunt

..was anyone seriously suggesting that it was going to happen any OTHER way than if the people of scotlan democratically voted for it?

#316 ... muchas gracias amigo/amiga
cheers big ears!

I think the journalist who got Brown to say congratulations towards Salmond on His victory should now try drawing blood out of a stone.....Incidentally: The only party that seem to be "picking fights" so far are Labour.

ehhh by the way I never claimed to be a Scots Nat did I??

#327 - But its the Netherlands now. Only the BBC still refers to it as Holland. Victoria Wood constantly interchanged England and Britain on her (really bad) show. She even talking about someone called the Queen of England, a post that has not existed since the Act of Settlement(??) in the 1700's.

PC is about showing some respect or do still go about calling black people n******s?

#303 Duncan in Edinburgh
Actually you should read the comments I was commenting on, which mentioned PR....
I was only stating that , yes it was first past the post, but the percentages didnt align trully to the number of seats won in the constinuency

#327 Er, no they weren't! North Holland and South Holland are two of the original seven, and current twelve, provinces of the Netherlands. The Netherlands has never, politically or otherwise, been known as Holland. The reason foreigners grew to use that name was that Holland was the most powerful region, much like England in the UK, and in much the same way as the Scots, Welsh and Irish, the populations of the other Nederland provinces often resent that they are ignored.

That was the whole reason I brought it up. Yesterday.

329: is this another party that's involved in spin - Scottish Socialist Nationalist Party? Socialist Scottish New Party? (Tommy Sheridan spin offs - maybe one of the S's is Solidarity)

Are you trying to claim that you have facts not yet released for public viewing or just being presumtious - again?

Anyway, must dash. Fun doing business with you all.

#330 yes, the implication of post number 323 - "dropped a hint that ministers in London will RESIST ANY MOVE TO ALTER HOLYROODS POWERS."
- is that somehow if Mr Salmond calls for more powers they should just be transferred. I do like the Nat paranoia in the quote too. Dropped a 'hint'. Well, b4gger me, dropped a hint, a whole hint? To the barricades and don't forget your Moira Anderson albums with Proclaimers cds as backup. This fight could get dirty. Maybe we should tool up with some heidrum hodrum accordion music too. Unlock the cabinets and break out the Jimmy Shand.

its actually quite fascinating the conversations you can have with our English cousins on the subject of Nooo Lay-borr ... get yon percolater brewin' up though ... there will be loadsa people who need to wake up and smell the coffee ... Broon ... the wally dug to feart tae face an election for his leadership ... yer tea is most definitely oooot!

#339 How is it Brown's responsibility that McDonald couldn't get enough backers to run? I think there should have been a contest but I don't see how you get to blaming Brown for it.

#338 Not the Jimmy Shand! Nooooo!

#338 ... ye forgoat Lena Martell, Andy Stewart and Sydney 'get the kettle oan Shirley' Devine ... since we are huvin' a musical evening ... hahahaha!

I'm sure Alex cares little if Gordon made a call. Brown's a lap dog, PERIOD. It's just another wee example of the lack of respect for Scotland those in Westminister have shown now for hundreds of years. They have spent countless hours on doing away with our traditions and have treated this Country with no regard or respect. I hope those days are coming to an end now. I really hope the SNP do a brilliant job and the people get behind them or another party that looks to it's people for direction not south to London.

#343 Like it buddy, like it a lot. Now THAT'S funny.

ahh reakon Bush ... as in Dubya ... will struggle though duznae huv the same ring tae it ... Yo Broon!

"Resist any move to alter Holyrood's powers" should read; "Resist any move to give Holyrood powers" ......that would be a more honest and transparent way to say it.

Daft Gordon will be hearing from Wee Eck soon enough!!!

Broon's tea is gonna be oot!!!

#344
Yeh: It's People.

#338 blunt

I suspect you may be reading a bit too much into it... in fact you end up sounding as paranoid as the nationalist "ultras" you appear to see everywhere!

It is one thing to be opposed to further (or even if it floats yer boat) any devolution... it is quite another to be in a situation where any party in Westminster takes a position that there is some line in the sand beyond which devolution will not be "allowed".

The danger is that if the Scots feel this is what is being said, they will react by punishing those who say it at the ballot box, much as the did with the Tories over the past few decades.

It is for the Scottish people to decide how much devolution they want, and when, or for that matter when to become independent if that's what the majority want. By all means Mr Straw, oppose the break up of the Union... but be very careful about saying what the limits are...!

#344 Aye. Damn those Westminster folk, doing away with our established tradition that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should always telephone Scotland's First Minister to congratulate him on his appointment.

Blair should have phoned Salmond - not Brown.

#353 Don't worry, I don't think Blair is on speaking terms with either of them. :-)

whit wuzz yon noise?
... wuzz that Dubya fallin' aff the chair ... chokin' oan a pretzel again ... or Condie Rice back fae her 'love-in' wae Putin wappin' him in the coupon?

Or wuzz it jist "wally dug" Broon the Furrin Meenister learnin' tae swim the Atlantic ... now that the NOOO LAY-BORE BOAT IS SUNK??
... Hear he izz gettin' a new joab as an extra in a Churchill Insurance commercial ... ohh YESSS!

#260 Nobody gives a flying F**k at a a rolling doughnut whether the sociopath calls Salmond. There are far more fundamental things afoot in Scottish politics, and from where I am sitting they all look good.

#350
Yeh: It's People.

231 Duncan: One would have expected that as the future Prime Minister he would have been man enough to congratulate Salmond. But of course Brown is very embarrassed about the Scottish election results. Blair, actually, is the one who should have phoned, but who cares about him, he's washed up, yesterday's man.

#351 Duncan

Interesting that you can't just accept that it would actually be a decent thing to do, and might actually be a good sign for the future, given that they will have to deal with each other.

Not, I don't say go out for the odd curry and a few beers together, agree with each other on issues etc...

I suppose it would be too much to expect that GB might actually be big enough to do it just because it wouldn't hurt, and that even if they are political opponents, they can actuallbe civil and avoid the usual sterile exchanges that nobody really believes. So much for "new" politics in Holyrood I guess...?

Why did the London based parties not all band together to form the Scotish Unionist Party and defeat the SNP at this election.

AM2

I always thought we were the envy of the world despite being tied to a rancid Westminster!! Everyone seems to embrace Scottishness around the world and obviously are proud of their roots!!

Duncan only voted Labour cos he didn't fancy Wee Eck!! I'm sure he said that!!:)

#358 Actually the only Labour leader who had any moral imperative to congratulate Salmond did so immediately, with good humour and good grace. And Salmond responded to Jack McConnell in much the same way.

#267 Duncan

Are you just acting the daft laddie? Brown is certain to be the next PM. Anyone with a modicum of the old common sense would realise that, in order to work with Salmond, you need to build rapport. Broon (and you apparently) can't see any reason to start this rapport now? This is not normal behaviour and is very, very short-sighted. I don't expect you to agree with me though!

Did four jobs Alex phone Gordon Brown to congratulate him I doubt it.

#360
Because they would have lost......

Another thing I found interesting about Brown's comments yesterday (that is other than his thunderous disposition when talking about Salmond - how bitter and petty) was his reiteration of the nonsense which Jack McConnell annunciated in parliament during his extremely ungracious speech. He stated that Scotland did not vote for constitutional change (a charge that Jack Straw also made).

The Greens, the Liberals, and the SNP had manifestoes committed to fiscal independence (with full media rights - in the Liberal case it is full scale federalism). Collectively they are the majority in terms of seats and vote.

By the silly logic of fanatical Labour types like Brown, Straw, and McConnell, Salmond should not even need to consult anyone in implementing full fiscal independence - the vote is there.

Will they be soon telling us all this is the settled will of the Scottish people?

Will they heck. They are all unprincipled power-gimps whose fetish for perpetual Labour party rule in the UK (and thus the role of emperor for Brown) would rather engender a culture of dependency and fear in Scotland, destroying national self-confidence, than countenance any further diminuition of their power (which would result from fiscal independence).

#269 Duncan

I don't think Salmond has even complained so what are you banging on about?

#359 Of course they are going to have to deal with each other, and they will manage I'm sure. Gordon and Alex are both very personable people on a one-to-one basis, even if their personalities show up differently on TV (Alex goes over the top, Gordon goes subdued). The point is that there is absolutely no justification for criticising Gordon Brown for not phoning someone he had no reason to phone! It's a cheap shot by an SNP machine gearing up for a whole series of anti-Gordon attacks to try to convince people that Westminster is agin Scotland.

#352 AM2

You may not fall into this category AM2, but the boards are littered with unionists who do exactly the things you say are spurious (and yes, I'm aware the other side have their hobby horses too...).

The most prevelant "cringe" I've seen in evidence on this site is not the one you describe, but the one insisting that Scotland is too "wee", too stupid, too backward, too entwined with England, too addicted to subsidies from England, etc, etc...

It's an almost unthinking mantra, and has to be seen as just that. There is, as we have already discussed ample evidence to support either view, enough to account for many acres of trees.

You are being disingenuous if you are really trying to say that it is a spurious argumnent that many unionists insist Scotland is not viable as an independent nation... the evidence of just such a claim is on these boards all the time.

#368 Stories like this don't happen by accident. It's just politics. If you think this press angle doesn't have Salmond's approval you are being naive.

#370 Again and again the only people who use those words are SNP supporters claiming that unionists have said them. It's pretty pathetic, actually.

233: "Nationalist morons" - is this in addition to the Labour, Tory and Lib-Dem morons? Further, can you show me the quote wherein Salmond suggests that Brown has snubbed him? You must be extremely intolerant when you are unable to accept that people of all political shades are entitled to their opinions. I think you must have been indoctrinated by the West of Scotland fourth-rate politicians who have just suffered a resounding rejection by the people of Scotland. Try and debate in an adult manner.

It's great fun looking at wee Joke and Cathy's new web pages. It must have really stuck in their gullets to have to become mere MSPs again. Ahhh the sheer justice of it! (sorry Cathy, didn't meant to rub it in).

#369 Duncan

There is every reason to criticise him for not phoning!! What on earth are you so resistant to the arguments of good grace and fostering a bit of a relationship for?

Nobody is saying there is some statutory obligation for him to phone, or that it is some ancinet custom and practice.

It would have cost him nothing, it would have made him look like a decent bloke, it would have shown some willingness not to be at daggers drawn even if they agree to disagree.

You are simply in denial... or maybe you are one of his parliamentary aides..? It's OK to say he might have done something wrong you know... really... even the most brain washed New Labour apparatchik needs to see the light sometime...

... head for the light... don't be scared!

Tae the lords o"convention "twas Claverhouse spoke,
E"er the kings crown go down there are crowns to be broke,
so each cavalier who loves honour and me
let him follow the bonnets o"Bonnie Dundee

Come fill up my cup,come fill up my can,
Come saddle my horses and call out my men;
Unhook the west port and let us gae FREE
For its up wi the bonnets o"Bonnie Dundee

Post 370: 'You are being disingenuous if you are really trying to say that it is a spurious argumnent that many unionists insist Scotland is not viable as an independent nation... the evidence of just such a claim is on these boards all the time.'

On these boards and from the lips of every other Labour minster...sorry, ex-minister.

They don't have any crediblity left, so I am not too bothered if they are in denial about this too.

The power-fetish Labour party are gone and I doubt they will return anytime soon in Scotland.

#309 It will help when wee poisonous Joke packs his bags. Maybe a new, less bitter Labour leader will see sense.

#372. Not true - only the other day i heard a wee woman on "Reporting Scotland" saying that she wasn't too happy about AS becoming FM because we're "too wee" to go it alone. It's a falacy that has been force-fed to us for years and I'm afraid it has stuck in the minds of some (thankfully not all) of the older generation. Hopefully 4 years of optimistic, forward thinking government can start to undo some of the damage.

#372 Duncan

Now you are just becoming annoying. there is ample evidence on these baords of people rubbishing the ability of Scotland to survive as an independent state. OK, some of it is just drivel from "Disgusted little Englander" of Tunbridge Wells... but a lot of it is quite sincere.

Open you eyes, even if your mind remains firmly shut!

#312 Facts

Does that include the ballot papers in Glasgow and Edinburgh which were changed without any consultation.

Time to get YOUR facts straight.

#371-372 DUNCAN ... MATEY ... YE NEED TAE GET OOT MAIR LADDIE!

Can I suggest a condo in Florida
... near the Noooo Laybore dug-boaxes
for retired losers wae a book deal and lecture tour organised ... get it now pal ... afore the planes urr fu' o' Noo Lay-bore cooncilors fae English and Welsh seats ... ye know rats leavin' a sinkin' ship ...
How is Broon gettin' oan wae his swimmin' lessons?

Don't forget yer Spanish lessons though ehh matey?
Adios guapo!!

#375 I utterly disagree. I think there is as much justification for criticising GB for not phoning as there is for criticising Margaret Beckett for not phoning. In other words no justification at all.

"It would have made him look like a decent bloke" - ha! Really? Are you sure that would have been the response of the people posting here? Or would they instead have said he should keep his nose out, he isn't PM yet and it's none of his business?

This whole thing is a trumped up cheap pot-shot at Brown, and if it is typical of how the SNP intend to behave in their media briefings and in government then I'm sorry for our country.

#329 Are you on the sauce this afternoon perchance? You are one very confused bunny!

#369
Seems more like a pro-Tory newspaper trying to stir up trouble between two other parties.

#383 where does it say that this story came from an SNP press briefing? Read the article, Brown was asked a question at his pre-coronation acceptance speech. Alex said that he looked forward to speaking to Brown when he officially takes office. He's not making an issue of it, the Scotsman is.

#383 Duncan

More evasion and denial.

The difference is that Margaret Beckett is not going to be the next PM. So, there is in fact a huge difference between any random cabinet minister, and the soon to be PM, phoning.

Your response lacks logic.. it isn't about whether there is a technical reason for him to phone, it's about whether it would have been an astute move.. obviously you disagree.... but to me any right thinking person... (or even reasonably astute political leader) would have picked up the phone.

I think the response of many people would have been exactly that it made him look like a good bloke... you are overly cynical.... and your obsession with it being an SNP trumped up pot shot is simply bizarre. I've got no particular agenda in favour of the SNP.. I just think he's a dolt for not doing the right thing.

#371 duncan

They do in the Scotsman!

#365
"Did four jobs Alex phone Gordon Brown to congratulate him I doubt it."

Not sure what you mean by 4 jobs?

# 366
Correct --The London based parties only use the union as an excuse. If they were all that interested in their beloved union they should have joined together to defeat the SNP.

Ring Ring...

DfB "hello?"

Stranger "Hi, is Facts as a Blunt Weapon there?"

DfB " I'll check, one monent".......

Oi! FaaBW, you here?..........

DfB" Sorry, he's no answering, can I take a message?"

Stranger "Yes please. Tell him it's his mum and his fish fingers and beans are ready and he better get home pronto or no bed time story"

DfB "Sure, no probs. Cheerie now"

Oi! FaaBW......p*ss off home!

#391 Torchwood is refering to the fact that Alex is leader of the SNP, First Minister, an MP and an MSP. Which is only one more than Joke had and precisely the same number as Saint Dewar had when he became FM... It's a disgrace apparently...

#389 So from "There is every reason to criticise him for not phoning!!" you are now at "it's about whether it would have been an astute move". Are you planning to head any further down that line, because we may end up agreeing! It might well have been an astute move, with a bit of hindsight, but I maintain that there is absolutely, categorically no reason to criticise him for not making it.

395 if I were a Labour supporter I would feel there is reason to criticise him as it makes him look churlish and rude.

As an SNP supporter I don't mind in the least, for the same reason.

#394 Of course, "Saint Dewar" never uttered the unfortunate words "If nominated I'll decline. If drafted I'll defer. And if elected I'll resign." But I'm sure we can trust Alex's word. This time.

Well, its all been said (396 comments) above but I'd
just like to add this: Gordon Brown used to have a lot of support from his fellow Scots, but no longer. All that
'when we won the world cup' stuff is wearing incredibly thin. By this I mean his endless toadying up to the Little
Englanders, the very people he must convince if he's going to last. But GB is fast losing support in his homeland, which is SCOTLAND, Gordon, in case you've let it slip your mind.

He deserves all he gets, which is coming. Go on Alex, I
wouldnae let it bother ye!

Will ye go to Sheriffmuir
Bold John o"Innisture
There to see the noble Mar
And his Highland laddies,
A"the true men o" the north
Angus,Huntly and Seaforth
Scouring on to cross the Forth
Wi"their white cockades

There you"ll see the banners flare
There you"ll hear the bagpipes rair
And the trumpets deadly blare
Wi the cannons rattle

There you"ll see the bold McCraws
Camerons and Clanronalds raw
And the clans wi loud huzzas
Rushing to the battle

#398 Actually he smiles completely differently in person - quite naturally - than he does on TV or in debates. I think he isn't a natural performer, unlike Blair. I personally don't find that a terribly serious thing to criticise.

I've not noticed a change in his accent.

I see comments on www.sexymsp.com have been suspended, perhaps due to some dodgy voting? ;@)

#399 - Dewar would have if he wanted to give his successor some room....

He also said "Never say Never"....

I think GB has made a big mistake, he gets voted in unopposed by his party when an overwhelming win in a party election would have improved his credibility to the country. Now everyone thinks that the party machinery ruthlessly suppressed all opposition. Another election Labour bollocks up.

Alex Salmond: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/default.stm

Gordon Brown:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6667431.stm

#405 - Very bad phrasing by the SNP admittedly, but the usual fare that ALL political parties use to get their message across. It is propaganda after all.

But then again it less damaging than claiming that we could be under attack from Saddam in under 45mins isn't it? At least no-one has died because of the SNP's web-site, have they.

360, why indeed,it's a pity they did not think of this,too late now; Brown verses Salmond,interesting.

#409 - Excellent, thank you.

#197 Hen Broon

"Yes Scotland the nation is very highly regarded around the world, that regard and empathy comes from people who wish us well and would dearly love to see us free from the yoke of Unionism, which baffles people when it is explained to them."

rofl....this just goes to show how ignorant those outside of Scottish/UK politics are then. Salmond and his cronies would no sooner rip up one union than replace it with another dependancy on the EU.

This alone exposes the nationalist cause as a total fraud.

413-are you english?or just one of those sad lowland loyalist scots with an identity crises.

AM2., #342.
'What on earth are you talking about? Entrenched non-unionist??'
Again thank you for spotting my mistake, how unfortunate. I hope my revision is more to your liking:

AM2, #####
first of all may I wholeheartedly apologize for my error in diction yesterday, trenchant should have read as entrenched, as in you are an entrenched non-nationalist mindless follower etc…, I hold my hands up here and now, and confess my sin of not checking out the accuracy of one of your earlier posts without proceeding. My mistake in all honesty was to trust the integrity of your agreed stance which you stated as ‘Entrenchant - to an extent, I suppose. Unionist - certainly.’ to really mean,‘Entrenched - to an extent, I suppose. Unionist - certainly.’ seeing ‘Entrenchant’ doesn’t really exist. I see now though you must have realized the unjustifiable position you had put yourself in, with all the connotations associated, so surreptitiously exchanged ‘Entrenchant’ for a more ego stroking word ‘Trenchant’ which fortunately being also very close to ‘Entrenchant’ could so easily be passed without much inspection. Your only mistake here is the context, as the person who wrote the post saying you were an ‘Entrenchant unionist non-entity’ was clearly attacking you for your view point, and not congratulating you for your incisiveness. The thing is, you would have gotten away with your little deception I think, if you had only not alerted me to my error.

Casey Purvis @ 388

We don't !!

(Turn the caps lock off pet.... you sound like idiot American people)

413- the EU is a collection of independent states, that share a common currency, where decisions are taken with the WHOLE of the EU is taken into consideration. The UK is a union where decisions are taken according the state of economy in one part of the country and no-where else matters.

Another totally no news story - what is this paper about??? There is no story at all and why should Gordon be on the blower in the first place? He's be a great hypocrite if he did ring congrats. Did Alex ring to congratulate Gordon???

#412 Zoom

To answer your Unionist question with my own point of view - it's quite simple really - we're stronger together.

Nationalists seem to think they're the ones with the patriotic high ground. Not true though - it's just as patriotic to vote agtainst your country from making a colossal mistake.

Also - I'd say that it's sad that you relish demonising other Scots - the vast majority of which either don't care enough about Independence to vote for the 1 major party that want's it or are pro-Union for their own reasons.

Boswall., #413.
'Yes Scotland the nation is very highly regarded around the world, that regard and empathy comes from people who wish us well and would dearly love to see us free from the yoke of Unionism, which baffles people when it is explained to them.'
Boswall, please make up your mind, people either feel empathy with Scots and would like to see an end to the unionist yoke, or they are baffled by us wanting to be free, which is it.

#414 killiecrankie1689

Scottish through to the bone and in the same city as your good self - just have a differing pov.

#421 - Stronger for what exactly? That is such a bogus agrument. We managed to bully and steal bits of the World for a while, is that what you mean?

422 Andrew Alan

Was quoting from #197. You'll need to ask Mr Broon.

#424 NittonLover

My belief's are bogus, only yours are valid?

Typical nat (gnat?).

Anyway, since you asked - stronger economically, stronger financially, stronger culturally.

You *really* need to get over the Empire - it's not coming back you know.

413
Since the UK is already a member of the EU that would mean no change there, except we would be represented as Scotland ,not part of the UK. The only change therefore would be within the context of the UK in effect.
In any case Scotland would only remain in the EU provided her people were in agreement.She automatically retains membership.of course.

The so called inconsistency is complete nonsense and this was Labour party propaganda designed for anybody stupid enough to swallow it.
You would be what the people desired .Thats exactly what would happen to England and Wales also, so they are in an identical position to that of Scotland, ie independent of the UK (which can no longer exist in its present form), but still a member of the EU provided her people agree . Not only that but every European member would be exactly the same .Your comments are the repetition of Labour nonsense, and don't even begin to make sense.Id be interested in how you justify what you said!

Too much to cover today but here are one or two points.
Of course Brown and Blair should have called Salmond. It is only common courtesy. David Cameron doesn't seem to have any hang up about dealing with Alex and he leads the Conservative & UNIONIST party. Annabelle Goldie was by far the most gracious in her congratulations.
Non resident Scots shouldn't get a vote. If you dont live in a country, pay taxes etc. you can't expect to vote in it. Of course ex-pat Scots will have their own opinions on Scottish affairs, I would if I left Scotland. But one thing I notice in a lot of the ex-pat posts, probably to to do with the length of time out of the country and remoteness, is how many are out of touch with the way attitudes in Scotland are changng. That is something that is very difficult to pick up if you are not actually here.
#110 Jim P Netherlands.
Get yourself some tax advice quickly son you're awfy confused. If you are paying UK tax you are not an ex-pat though as you pointed out ex-pat is just a description not any kind of official status. However residencyand domicile are. They are not related. Domicile in tax terms is far removed from the normal usage i.e. where you live. You could live out of the UK for donkeys years, be non resident for tax purposes but still be a UK domicile. I wasn't joking when I said get yourself some tax advice, this is stuff you need to know about.
#170 Martyn Barber.
'the majority of Scots voted for the Union. Sorry but thats a fact.' No, actually it's not a fact. The politicians, Brown came out with this, keep feeding people s*** like this and people like Martyn keep swallowing it. The parties campaign on a whole range of issues and people don't vote on only one. There are plenty of people who voted Con, Labour or LD who support independence just as there are plenty of people who voted SNP who aren't seperatists. The only vote that matters is the one with only one question, 'Do you want Scotlan

Boswall., #421.
Think of it this way, it isn't a question of if Scots will be influenced so much that we will lose our philisophical indentities, it is when. Modern technology has made that the case.

423-no harm in having a different point of view.only thing is nobody in scotland has ever voted for a union with england.why have we been denied a referendum on the subject?

421.well said

#426 Zoom - once again missing the point. Don't take up darts.

As you well know I was mocking a previous posting.
In fact I think I may have even referenced the post number.

You really should try reading a posting before making a comment - this would reduce the number of times you make a fool of yourself.

Boswall., #428.
There is only one thing worse than those people who think we are incapable of sustaining ourselves when independent, and that is those who actively fight those trying their hardest to prove we do have the capability to sustain ourselves when independent for political gain.

#428 - An argument is not a "belief", I said your argument is bogus.

Economically and finincially- are they not one and the same?? I thought we were the subsidy junkies? Anyway that's what I've been told over the years. So it actually makes the UK WEAKER, as we drain the UK of its wealth.

Culturally??? There are major distinctions between English and Scottish culture. (Maybe not English and British as seen from abroad). It definitely does not make use stronger if we are together, in fact both cultures will have time to grow and evolve if we were separate countries.

Typical Nat?? Lets stereotype, there is no such thing. I voted for them, I wouldn't join them, too soft on segregated schools for me. (There isn't a gnats pube between the parties on this issue)

#428
Boswall - How stronger culturally?

#438 Sorry, do gnats have pubes???

I've no time for either of them, but this debate seems one sided. Does anyone know if Salmond telephoned Brown to congratulate him?

#416 Richard

Where is it written that Scotland is guaranteed to remain part of the EU if it parts from the UK? I'd think in all likleyhood it would be but would prefer to see the evidence all the same. Especially as the SNP's pledge to turn Scotland into a Ireland-like tiger economy would seem to be resting on that membership. And money.

Would be helpful if you kept the insults to yourself - Zoom's a poor choice of rolemodel.

Alex has been very gracious about the situation:

"During his first formal official engagement on a visit to the Longannet power station, Mr Salmond said: "I look forward to speaking to Gordon and as soon as he is officially in office I'm sure he'll give me a ring and we'll set up a meeting and we'll hopefully work constructively for the future of Scotland.

"The things that were said by Gordon during the election campaign - lots of things are said in the heat of battle.

"Now that the dust is settling I'm quite sure that Gordon, like me, puts the Scottish interest among our paramount concerns and that we will work together in the Scottish interest."

Hope that becomes a reality, perhaps once Gordon is officially in office he will think and care more about the Scottish people than his own political ambitions to be the Prime Minister of the UK (meaning that his failure to make a congratulatory call might have been based on political expediency more than sour grapes)...well only time will tell...and as so many other posters on this thread have so aptly put in the course of human events what goes around comes around or what you sow so shall you reap.

On an upbeat note think that a visit to Belfast by Alex is a very positive step to take.

"The first signs of co-operation emerged yesterday with the news of a conversation on Wednesday night between Alex Salmond and Rev Ian Paisley, the First Minister of Northern Ireland.

"There are things Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland have in common. If we go to the British government in harness, we will get more out of them," Rev Paisley said. "

#406
Nice link: It is good to hear Salmond speaking up for Scotland in the Sports department and any other for that matter.......but then He is free to think like this without getting fogged by trying keeping the "glorious & powerful" Union together.......I think We are getting Our friendly sense of Nationhood back.........I hope We are.......

#442 - Where does it say that Scotland wouldn't be a member??? Another "bogus" argument based on unsubstatiated scare stories.

#442/446 In fact Scotland would have the right to EU membership after independence, on the condition that it ratified all existing treaties first. That is the EU rule. In other words, there would be right to entry, but there could be no opt out from what has already been negotiated on a UK level. Like the common fisheries policy. Which is often held up as something that independence would get us out of, if I recall from the SNP election rhetoric.

to all you nats, if you werw offered a deal to stay in the union would you except it?

#442 - Rant contd...

The EU let Estonia, Poland, Latvia and Romania join, but wouldn't let Scotland stay in??? You haven't a clue mate.

. No 441
I agree with you. Let us not read any more comments. What do you say?
Boring, like the three year old girl missing and SKY TV showing this ever second for last 15 days. I am sorry but I have other work to do. SKY please stop this or I change to BBC I do not like it but nor the baby lost in Portugal and PC s taken the innocent parties grabbed and the reporter walks from the abduction place to the house pace by pace only to find that he is released after he spoke. And what do we have WE ARE WHEN IT HAPPENS. So where were you when she was taken? British know how to repot. Missing HOW MANY IRAQ??

Let us go to the Business section. Perhaps there is a lotto!!!!