Would not exactly be a wise move considering the massive majority of the public that are against seperation.

well if they could gaurentee that this would be a one off binding for lets say 25 years or so, then maybe but if its a neverendum every 4 years or so then no chance

Activists want to bypass parliament by launching a petition to influence parliament? DOH!

Where do I sign??

Hand the pen over,Jimmy

Brilliant idea...it's a start. It might look like "Not a Snowball's Chance in Hell " at the moment but once the people see that ALex Salmond and Co. are really trying then maybe they'll realise that total Independence is the only way and the best way for Scotland. I predict that once Independence is achieved and things start brightening up people will be saying " We should have done this years ago!" Alba gu Bra`th.

I think he'd get 100,000 who at least want the opportunity to express an opinion no problem at all - all those Tories who want a referendum just so they can vote no for starters.

'signed'

Have to laugh at the unionists complaining about having 'endless' referendums on independence when we still haven't had ONE in 300 years!

What is it they fear, do you think?
Is it the scary prospect of running our own affairs?
Is it democracy itself, as most all have rejected a democratic referendum?
Is it the thought of not having politicians who rarely visit Scotland dictating how Scotland should be run?

Is gonna be a good day tomorrow - all roads lead to Dynamic Earth!

Reminds me - better off to bed to get up on time!

Miaowzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....

All civil rights movements have to start somewhere.

And so the Union 'end of days' begins.

Bring it on.

Come in #1 your time is up!!

#5 please pass the pen!! LOL!

That pen is not moving round fast enough!!! Please don't bypass me! :)

I won't be signing. He can deport me back to England if he wants, but I won't sign!!

#1 Darryl, then again mate it might be seen as a good move, putting it to the people so to speak. Might change a few minds. Lets face it how often has any party ever ask our opinions.

#14 Helen, that's the great thing about Scotland, you don't have to sign, it's called freedom.

14. Helen /Good bye, pass the pen please.

I have to laugh at people like #14.

'I won't sign'.

It's only a petition for a referendum luv, you can still put your 'X' in the 'apathy and fear' box when the day eventually comes.

What are the North Brits afraid of ? Could it be the fact that once the people of Scotland are faced with the stark choice, many of them won't in fact bottle out but will make the leap to say 'yes' ?

I suspect so.

Britain isolated as EU treaty talks falter
The Prime Minister is demanding a special opt-out for Britain from a proposed European Charter of Fundamental Rights as EU leaders began a tense and potentially divisive summit in Brussels.
Blair will become a Catholic
Tony Blair is "certain" to become a Roman Catholic shortly after he steps down from office next week, friends of the Prime Minister have told The Independent. They believe it will happen "sooner rather than later".
Sir 100,000 only but you have to put this in the paper to show the public.
If I were if your case I would stand near the bus stop, rail stop and ferry stop and the tube stop and would get 500,000 in two, TWO days, but then I have got to have the will. This, the Scottish I am sad do not have. Here I read comment, "give me a ball pen", where is the aspire? Buddy get out photocopy five get the signatures you have 200 8 5 = 100000. aka QED.
But when there was election 35 % set vigilantly to vote for the independences I rub this in while 65 % were waiting for the Santa Clause to drop in and say “Hi there what are you doing "
Come on. Tony is changing the religion and there is a new agreement with EU. EEC is EU now Tony Blaire is trying the last stitches that are tearing apart to ensure that you get the piece of your lands. What is holding you?
Do you want me to come with pomp pomp girls to the stadium or the show and tell you Guys get the signatures and produce your own braded Cod Liver Oil. BP has sold the shares to The Russian EPROM. So you have job cuts soon in Shell.

#19 Well said sir!

Apathy is the greatest enemy!

well said #18.

to many Scots are spineless, yellow streaks up their backs.

Seize the moment and stand on your own 2 feet for once.

Helen,
You will be welcome in Scotland, shame you cannot see independence is a good thing for the place you live in. I believe in independence for England aswell.
It is time England and Scotland become really the best neighbours on earth. I think once devorced we would get on famusly as nations. There are many English up here who do see that Scotland deserves to be a full nation. I like England but it has always been a foreign place to me, our so called capital London doesnt feel like my capital Edinburgh. I am sure the English will continue to enjoy Scots in your country like they have the Irish. After all we are EU now, smaller nations do better in EU than larger ones.
regards, Mark- Scottish not British.

Pen please where and when do i sign?

tanzania a sucessful place on earth-not.

Activists to bypass parliament?am i missing something here,is this a new type of democracy SNP style.I voted SNP and we all had our chance at the polling stations,but we did not carry the day on independance this time.Lets stay with the proper democratic route and not alienate more prospective SNP supporters,because i believe our support is growing,but it wont with this stupid idea.

I think everyone from now on should put a YES or a NO at the end of there comments for a referendum, and at the end of the day we will find out what the posters think.

Yes

Tell me where to sign.

Saor Alba

Who's got the pen? I want it.

#26

Yes

So, the SNP seem to think that just because they didn't get enough support from the electorate at the election to give them the clear mandate they wanted, they can no sneak a referendum on us by virtue of a petittion, thereby bypassing the pesky electorate. If this is a foretatse of the politics of independence, Lord help us al.

if he thinks it's such a good idea, why does he want only 100k signatures. Surely he should feel confident in getting 25% of the electorate to sign the petition. He should be looking for a million signatures.

He might get closer to the million if he promised a referendum would end the matter for 25 years, and his party would change their policy if they lost the vote.

I won't be signing. He can deport me back to England if he wants, but I won't sign!!

Helen - sign and then like most people vote NO !!

#30, BigRed.

Take your suggestion to its logical conclusion for all Parties......... you get it????

YES.

#4 Pie in the sky is a more apt moniker for you my son/daughter.

#26 NO

So what - if the Unionists get a petition with 100001 signatures does that mean it would be "impossible to ignore" and they'd have to NOT have a referendum? It's a sideshow.

Due process would be:
1 - Elect a party with a nationalist agenda into a majority government in each parliament.
2 - THEN, ask each member of the Union what they want.
3- THEN, if the majority of the Union wants out in two consecutive votes ten years apart, do something about it. If they don't, scrap devolution and put the new seat of government somewhere with less of a chip on the shoulder, the Isle of Man or Sunderland or somewhere.

Anything more hasty is pandering to the rabble-rousing of an ephemeral and misguided idea of nationalism driven in most Scottish voters' minds by how satisfying it would be to kick the English in the teeth, not by a properly formed opinion of the pros and cons for Scotland or the UK.

I think it is so sweet when Unionists convince themselves that most folk would vote no in a referendum, like #1 and others, when if they thought that was really the case, we'd have already had a referendum to settle the issue - alas we haven't. And then of course there is mounting pressure from south of the border to end the union.

Yes to the Referendum
Yes to independence

A particularly cogent observation from Firozali A.Mulla MBA PhD today I see

#35 If we were to ask everyone in the UK if they favoured Scottish independence, independence for Scotland would be guaranteed by a huge margin.

There are properly formed pros for Scotland becoming independent, you don't need to look too far to see that. Unfortunately on the Unionist side of the argument we only have prejudices, but that at least shows which side the enlightened debate is on.

# 38 et al.
I know there are properly formed pros. My personal opinion is that they are outweighed by the cons. I just think that most people don't bother to properly consider either. Unforturnately I do not believe your first assertion either, although there are certainly a vocal minority of pain in the ass English nationalists.

Referenda are too easily abused because public opinion is fickle, reactionary and easily altered on a short timescale. To trust the result I would want to see the same opinion expressed over several years, certainly over the full cycle of a Labour and a Tory government in England so that opinions with their roots in short-term party political bickering (i.e. Labour are nasty so we'll do the opposite of what they want) are smoothed out. I am sure that by careful timing over the last ten years we could have got a positive referendum for lots of things that would not get a positive referendum now (like giving the Labour party a mandate to govern, for instance). Parliamentary democracy achieves this time-smothing safety factor itself because it takes so damn long for a party to adopt a new policy, get elected and enact it. A single-point referendum gives too much power to knee-jerk reactions from the ill-informed. 20 years worth of referenda I might start to take seriously.

#35.

Can't work out whether you are Callaghan or Thatcher.

# 40
Why thank you Frank.

The vast majority of the Scottish electorate will never vote for separation from the rest of the UK - Nobody but an imbecile is going to put at risk their entire economy, job, taxation, foreign policy . .for what? The 'greatest little nation in the world' would be reduced to the role of a banana republic once it split from the massive economic and political clout of England. The idea that Europe would allow Scotland at the top table on an equal basis with nations that are ten or 20 times as populous - like Germany, France, Poland or Spain - is just ludicrous. Power in Europe derives from population and economic wealth and military clout. Scotland has a tiny population, a tiny economy and no military beyond its people in the British army, navy and airforce.

The reason why England offered union to a bankrupt Scotland in 1703 was national security. Scotland was the open back door where traitors were always willing to bring in a French army - as with the Old Pretender or B.P. Charlie. England saw that the benefits of a secure northern border outweighed the money they would have to subsidise Scotland with ever since - currently £34 billion a year.

The game which Alex is playing with the Scots electorate at the moment - 'divide and rule' - is exactly the same game which Scotland played for hundreds of years with England. If you don't pay us off we'll invite the French, Spanish, Dutch, Irish across to invade your back door. If Alex ever got his way, an independent Scotland would play exactly the same game again - seeking bribes from Europe to be a constant thorn in England's backside.

What is amazing is how the Nats - (whose postings here drip with racist, bigoted anglo-phobia) cannot get along with their neighbours and partners of 300 years standing, but swear that - once freed from the yoke of English oppression, they will live in sweet harmony with the French, the Germans and the Belgians. Oh yeah??

So lets have the referendum tomorrow -

Independence First the non party political campaign for a referendum on Independence will be meeting in Dundee on Saturday to implement the plans for a 2.4 million signature petition for a referendum. This has been in the planning stage for several months and will take around 18 to 24 months to bring to fruition.

We in Independence First believe a referendum can be won as our research shows:
http://www.independence1st.com/content/polls.shtml

The reason why I personally believe this petition to be necessary is that the British Government cannot afford to let Scotland become independent for economic and prestige reasons. Economic because Scotland punches well above her weight and contributes far more tax revenues than her population share should do. On average Scotland contributes 10.4% of all Tax Revenues with just 8.6% of the population share.

The British Government have borrowed heavily to the tune of £512 Billions cumulative deficit and this debt is secured by the Oilfield reserves. No Scotland means no Oilfield reserves = an economic recession.

Secondly, the loss of Scotland means that Britain is diminished in the halls of power such as the UN and the EU. Britains seat on the security council will be on a shoogley peg and her influence in the EU would be far less because Scotland's natural resources such as oil and fish would disappear as bargaining chips.

Therefore it is necessary to have this petition so that the British Government cannot prevaricate when the people of Scotland claim theer right to self determination under article 1 of the UN Charter. The British Government will prevaricate otherwise, claiming there is no demand for independence because only a small percentage voted for the SNP. Whereas many more people want Independence than just those supporting the SNP.

Independence First has members of all political parties (includin

# 43
Your arguments could be applied equally if Greater London was seeking independence. This would not make anyone better off, not even the high earners who live there and see their taxes spent elsewhere. Nor would a go-it-alone Scotland. Don't be greedy; it's about making the whole pie bigger, not making sure your slice is the biggest.

#38 Grant. You are right. If a UK referendum was held to determine independence for Scotland there would be a huge margin in favour but I gaurantee that percentage wise a greater number of English would vote in favour than would Scottish. Majority of Scots know which side their bread is buttered and the thought of pulling out of the Union fills them with dread. It is only wee eck and the rest of the romantic fools who support the SNP and thus independence who think differently.

#42, Tweedmouth.

Did my Lord Percy leave you behind to guard the Marches?
You seem to have his particular aversion to the Scots.

To be honest, at the moment I'd rather see the SNP pushing for a referendum of the Edinburgh tram project than Scottish Independance.

With probably over a £1 Billion of our money on the line(no pun intended), this 'white elephant' needs to be sent to the grave as soon as possible.

# 43
Might I also point out that your fifth paragraph is surely not an argument FOR independence!? How is diminishing our international clout a good thing!?
Sorry I was a bit slow there, I had to go and look up what a "shoogley peg" was.

#47
Yes, Alex seems to have missed a trick there. If he OKed the tram and made the English taxpayers fork out for it (again) that would definitely be a step along the road to independence.

#45 and the other Nae-sayers.

If you are so confident that your assertion is correct then, why not convince your MSPs to back a Yes/No referendum on Independence.

Perhaps the Unionist MSPs are completely out of touch with the Scottish electorate.

Do I understand this this cohort of SNP activists do not think that AS can deliver, so they are resorting to an undemocratic process within weeks of him taking office. It no surprise that AS is going to warn them to stick together, but it appears to be too late.

Before the SNP pack to carried away with this turn of events, this could have consequences for this administration.

I am sure that this Swiss initiative did not change the very nature of the state of Switzerland.

Is the SNP a democratic party or not.

#42 and #48 Your arguments might hold more water if you told people that you are, in fact, English. Your comments are so blatantly anti-Scottish as to be verging on racism.

# 50
For reasons given above I will back a referendum, but only if it shows a consistent result over 10-20 years.
The Unionist MSPs are clearly not out of touch, as they managed to achieve an overall majority in that election thing we had. Which is more than the Nats did.

#48

Pehaps I could offer an explanation.

It is about giving Scotland a voice among the community of nations.

A voice that will speak out against, and will not enter into illegal wars, will take positions that comply with international treaties and obligations etc. Unlike the present British state.

#47. Frankly my dear, I don't give a tram ! :)

We had an election and the 4 main parties all said what their policy was on a referendum, 1 for and 3 against.
The 1 for the SNP got 47 seats one more than Labour with 46 seats and 33 less than the 3 parties who were against a referendum.
The majority of the people in that election did not vote for that 1 party to give them enough seats in parliament to allow them to hold a referendum so their activists now want to by-pass parliament.
They want to present a petition with 100,000 signatures which is about 3% of the voting population to force parliament to hold a referendum.
If these activist can get their people out to petition (at no expense to the tax payer) the public and get 50% or more signatures then we will know the people want a referendum.
If they cannot get that then just accept that the people have already spoken.

Does 'The Scotsman' deliberately search for pictures which make the first minister look smug and/or arrogant ?

Remember, a photograph is only a moment in time.

Having watched the most recent First Minister's question time, I did however detect a hint of smugness in his manner. Having said that, the previous First Minister looked and sounded like the boy who had his lollipop stolen.

I don't really care who's in power; as long as the keep Scotland's interests at the top of their agenda.

# 52
My comments are not anti-Scottish in any way. Do you have something against the English? In a non-racist way of course.
It is a cheap shot to knock my arguments, which I think are in the interests of Scotland, on that basis. I think the Nationalist argument is not in our interest but I do not call them unpatriotic.
I am as Scottish as you are and I am not going to cheapen the argument by arguing about whose ancestors died at Culloden. Guess what - I think Poles and Indians have a stake too after a generation or so.

#54 Frank are you really suggesting that 300 yrs of Union has to be thrown away because of one recent poor decision on a war.

You used the plural to mean many wars, I can only think that you are referring to WW1 and WW2. Do you think that Scotland could have resisted Hitler alone or would you have wanted help from down south?

#53

Well, the referenda have been going on for the past 10yrs. and the SNP position has improved over this period.

I would suggest that if a Yes/No referendum is held in the lifetime of this paliament your condition would be met.

If the Unionist MSPs are not out of touch with the electorate why don't they press for a Yes/No referendum and putthe whole issue to bed?

#42

it's nice to hear that England is subsidising Scotland by 34 million a year but is that not what we make with just our oil? so in real terms Engald is taking our oil money then giving it back to us and saying we should be greatfully? humm

#61 I think you want your cake and eat, SNP have formed a minority administration, the largest number of votes went to Unionist parties, now the SNP want to go undemocratic to get their way. This is not about a referendum, but how democratic is the SNP.

#57, Walter.

Perhaps you would like to read the Scotland Act as it may offer you some enlightenment.

#63, AJM

Please refer to #64

... still a bit miffed and waiting for Guga II to express a tad of contrition.

AM2

Thank you for that heads up on Niall. I have consigned him to the same mental category as our Tanzanian contributor.

42 Tweedmouth, I agree: the sooner the better. Alex Salmond is far from happy with his National Council.

43

Niall, I take it you mean "procrastinate" rather than "prevaricate"? Either way, you are talking nonsense.

more nonsense from the snp

# 43 Niall
As National Treasurer of your organisation, may I please ask what asset class you have chosen to put your resources in. I am trying to think of one which would survive the economic catastrophe you are looking forward to but I can only come up with tinned food and fuel.

#56 AM2
You wrote: "He has asserted that “When Independence comes to Scotland, you are going to witness the biggest financial disaster since the Wall Street crash as the rump UK goes bankrupt”[3] and that “Scotland leaving the Union could well trigger an English stock market crash. A crash in house prices and a devaluation of the pound.”[4]. He has expressed a view that under such circumstances the remainder of the UK might come “to Scotland, cap in hand, begging for a handout”[5].

It’s nonsense, of course. But unsurprisingly, he doesn’t appear to consider any of his apocalyptic predictions to be arguments in favour of preserving the Union. Read into that what you will."

Thank you for your predictable response. I stand by my predictions. However being pro Independence, I am hardly likely to be propping the union up am I? Scotland has been exploited for far too long as the insignificant junior 'partner?' in the union. The rump of the UK must survive as it may without Scotland's largesse to keep it in the style it has become accustomed to.

Airson Alba!
Niall.

# 54
International clout can be used for good or ill. If you haven't got any (independent Scotland) you don't have the choice. If you do (Union) every voter can influence what it is used for.

Yes About time we have a vote on the union.

# 42 Tweedmouth

Still living in your pathetic, Empire "We ruled the world and taught them all what civilisation was" fantasy land. I thought the likes of you had fought the war for people like me - bet you're sorry you won - and then died off!

Your version of Scottish history is equally fantasy land. There is a technical term for it........I think it's "LIES", though there may well be an additional word which comes first, if memory serves. I mean, to be pedantic, you didn't even get the date right for a start.

The figure which you say Scotland is subsidised by is actually more than the total annual budget of the Scottish Parliament - so more utter drivel there - and lets not get into the fact that Scotland isn't subsidised by anyone.

You said : 'divide and rule' - is exactly the same game which Scotland played for hundreds of years with England.

This is a real classic. Are you telling us that Scotland ruled England for hundreds of years? Whoever wrote my history book must have missed that bit. Careless of them.

What actually happened is that England devistated the southern part of Scotland - the part with the greatest potential for development - over and over again. You might have heard of Henry VIII's idea of "diplomacy", for example. Burn Dundee and Edinburgh, and all points south. Everything destroyed because he was in a tizz that the Scots wouldn't agree to an enforced marriage. Only one small example.

You said : What is amazing is how the Nats - (whose postings here drip with racist, bigoted anglo-phobia).....

A quick glance through these posts will highlight the fact that there is one here which "drips with racist, bigoted ......". what's the word for hatred of the Scots....come on, help me out. You're the expert!

You said : "England offered union to a bankrupt Scotland in 1703"

So just one final thought on that. England "offered" consid

Never mind the 100,000 signatures Salmond wants!

"It's time" for Scotland to become independent immediately!

"It's Time" for Scotland to become self financed by the Scottish Taxpayer and economy!

This would then stop all these arguments, claims and counter claims about who owes what!

75

Niall, like many independence seekers, you assert that Scotland has derived few, if any, benefits from the union. Can I respectfuuly suggest that you read "Scots and the Union" (2006) by Professor Chris Whatley of the University of Dundee? I wouldn't expect this to change your mind but you may be less enthusiastic.

# 75
How can you possibly think that what is bad for England is good for Scotland? Maybe 80% of our interests coincide completely, just like they do with the rest of the European/world economy, it's the other 20% we are arguing about. I think the Union makes everyone better off, but would be persuaded to the Nationalist camp if I thought otherwise. You just don't care! You think Scotland would get away scot-free from your impending (and fictional) economic meltdown. I really don't think your professed position is helping your cause.

#79
Sorry, dozed off before the end of that. The future is so much more interesting. And relevant.

79

Ronnie W, do you not accept that the Darien Scheme/Disaster nearly bankrupted Scotland?

# 86
Yes well done, that should keep History Man busy.

Well so Mr Salmond plans to bypass the MSPs who were elected to parliment on a stance of maintaining the Union. Therefore after trying to make a deal with The Lib-Dem, who refused because they stuck to their pronciples and electrion promises, Alex Salmond is now in desperation avoiding parliment because he knows he would lose the vote.

For a man who is meant to represent the Scottish people its the lowest form of politics through bypassing th elected assembly whisich is the right and proper forum for this kind of debate.

I will now standback and wait for the SNP lackeys to explain why it right and proper to avoid the Scottish Assembly (only elected a few weks ago)because Alex Salmond knows he cannot win.

PS HAs Mr Salmond stood down a MP yet?

# 76 Tax the poor, there's more of them,

Em....Excuse me, but.....

you said : "International clout can be used for good or ill. If you haven't got any (independent Scotland) you don't have the choice. If you do (Union) every voter can influence what it is used for."

Is this you giving us an example of "Doublethink"....you know, what my old English teacher used to talk about when we were studying Orwell's "1984".

So the union gives the non-existant "country" of Scotland "international clout". Mmm. Would you mind telling us just how a country which officially doesn't exist gains "international clout" by not existing, but loses clout after it has taken up its place as an independent country among the family of nations?

Just if you have the time, you understand. It's probably just that I have missed some important point here - like believing two impossible things before breakfast......hey, was that a white rabbit that just ran past? Got to go.......

#58 Daily user. No, the Scotsman does not deliberately seek out pictures that make wee eck look smug and/or arrogant; he is smug and/or arrogant. As for his "moment of time", this is it, his ten minutes of fame which will come to an end at the next election after which we can be one big happy unionist family agaiin.

77 Callum

We did have a vote for theUnion a hew weeks ago and the majority of Scots (mush to AS displeasure) voted for it

#90
Britain has a permanent seat on the security council. Scotland won't. Scottish voters have a say in UK policy - at the moment. Duh. If you think that the nasty Westminster exercises morally dubious foreign policy, the Union allows you to make a bigger difference to that than the alternative.

85

Peter, when we get a referendum (and I hope that it is sooner rather than later), the issue which will determine how the vast majority of people will vote will be their own individual financial circumstances (ie personal greed). In my view, the Scots will decide, wisely, to stick with the union. Referenda and elections aren't decided by morality.

#89 Jings Crivens. No, he is still receiving his pieces of siver from the Unionists. Would you work for, and be paid, by a system that you so despised. No you would'nt, but wee eck continues to do so. Does he know something that the rest of us don't?

# 89 Jings Crivens

It might be more to the point if a "Unionist Lackey", yourself for example, explained why people like you can't understand, or chose not to understand - lets be generous and go for the latter - how the Scottish Parliament works. It has specific mechanisms in place for dealing with petitions from the public, and has dealt with very many in the last eight years. Far from "bypassing MSPs", petitions merely draw specific issues to their attention so that THEY can....you know....like, deal with the issue.

One of the things about misleading people in politics - someone of a less generous nature might call it "lying" - is that the statement put forward has to sound credible. If you don't get the mechanisms of the institution right............

#90
In other words: Scotland's probable place on the international stage is near the back.

93 -Tax the poor, there's more of them

If Scotland were independent it wouldn't have a permanent seat at the SEcurity Council which are reserved for the victors of WW2 UK, USA, Russia, France and China. I belive that the other 10?member are temporay. Therefore Scotland could never be a permanent member of teh Security Council. So you've actually shown why Scotland benfits from the Union by being represented at the highest level.

# 99
Yes, that was exactly my point.

# 94 AM2

.......and less than one in six bothered to vote for the unionist Labour Party.

Just thought I would finish it off for you since you seemed to have forgotten the last bit. probably all that running around playing football. Makes you tired. You should have taken the position in goals.

#101
If you spent as much time on your point as you do on your sarcasm you would be even funnier.

97 Ronnie W,

Lost already Ronnie with your comments but so typical of the some of SNP peolple who go on this site and can't have a reasoned debate

While I can see petitions being raised by MSPs, members of the public, etc. Don't you think it smacks of desperation when the First Minister needs to ask for a petition to get his policices through.

#89.

No-one is trying to by-pass anything. Read the Scotland Act for some enlightenment.

How about a referndum for the Scottish people to find out whether or not we want asylum seekers and immigrants to come to Scotland in such ever increasing numbers. I have previously asked Jack MacConnell to grant the Scottish people a referendum - he chose to ignore my correspondence. I also asked MSP Charlie Gordon for a referendum asking Glaswegians if they wanted asylum seekers and immigrants to be accommodated in Glasgow in such ever increasing numbers. He answered with a definite NO! Charlie Gordon was the former head of Glasgow City Council prior to becoming a MSP. He was mainly responsible doing a financial deal with the Home Office to accommodate thousands of asylum seekers in Glasgow. Now he does not want to know. He refuses to answer correspondence.

~100

I apologise to miss reading you post, too busy rebutting Ronnie W comments

# 77 AM2

Yu said : " as I would like some additional tax varying powers to be devolved, I'm in your 77% group."

Now this is a genuine question. How does that statement square with the fact that you claim that every LITTLE difference between the goverance of Scotland and England is "devisive....inspires racism....etc."?

Surely tax REDUCING powers, IF THEY WERE USED (since they already exist), would be even more "devisive". How do you square that?

#86.

Perhaps reading some of the history concerning the "Darien Scheme" might give you some insight to the "Union".

But, perhaps for you, ignorance is bliss and wrapped in the "Butcher's apron.

# 103 Jings Crivens

It is actually the SNP National Council which is proposing to do this, not the First Minister.

If you can't tell the difference you shouldn't be posting on a board discussing politics.

# 103 Jings Crivens

And just before you ask.....NO, the First Minister doesn't direct the National Council to do things. They would probably roast him alive if me tried.

105

Blockem, a serious question: did you vote in the recent Scottish Parliament election and, if you did, what party did you vote for?

104 frank mcbride, lusitania

See my post no 103

108

Frank, I know all about Darien. Do you?

#104 What are you on about? Which part of the Scotland Act?

As others have said, we don't need a referendum so soon after an election where people had the chance to vote for a pro-referendum party, and the vast majority did not.

The people have spoken. They didn't ask for a referendum. 100,000 names on a petition wouldn't outweigh that. Get over it.

109 Ronnie

Jusr remind me who i sthe Leader of the SNP his name slips my mind for th emoment

Still disperation and two fingers to the people wfo voted in the last elections

#105 Blockem
Please may we also have a referendum to see if we should retain or deport Scottish-born layabouts who cost more in benefits than they will ever contribute and who wish to abrogate their part of our collective responsibility towards those who have fled persecution in other countries. Then we'd have some more room for hardworking Polish plumbers etc.
WRONG THREAD SUNSHINE!

109

Ronnie, see 70.

# 106
s'OK, saves me saying it over and over again!

Excuse me but ... WHERE'S THE BL$$DY PEN???? I wanna sign!!!!

116

TTPTMOT - great post. Do you think that Blockem is one of these layabouts? I think that there is a good chance that he/she is.

Ronnie W

Yer right and if Salmond didn't tell them to do it then its even worse its the whole/majorityof the SNP council are still desperate and are still trying to overturn the electorate.

Which sounds a bit like Zimbawe and other countries which don't like what the electorate want so ignore it

# 86 Walter Ego

The darien Scheme - of course it was a disaster, but mainly for the wealthy classes. The Englishpromised to compensate them for their loss, but on the whole the money hadn't been paid thirty or forty years later - can't remember the exact time frame off hand, but I know that grandsons were still claiming the payment, unsuccessfully, from Westminster.

The problem of Darien was compounded be a series of very bad harvests at that time, and that affected all of Northern Europe, not just Scotland.

Even so, the union would stil never have taken place if it hadn't been for the threat of military action. The whole exercise was seen in military terms by the English government. They were afraid of a second front opening up in their war with France. And the "threat" of a catholic King in Sctland - would you have wanted to have been a catholic King in Scotland in these days? I certainly wouldn't.

Can anyone imagine being stuck in a crowded pub listening to this guy 'Tax the poor, there's more of them'? Dear god, Im shhivering so much at the thought of it, that I near spilled my medicinal Brandy. Fud with a typewriter springs to mind. As for the reat of the union apologists; the claim that most people voted for the continuation of the union is pish. The unionist vote was, to say the least, fragmented. Duh, that's how the SNP recorded most votes by any single party! Argue against that, if you think you can. BTW, the union is dead...

# 121 Jings Crivens

Actually it's called "democracy", like where the people have their say.

Counties like Switzerland are almost ruled by referendum....not to mention the U.S.A. where referendum in the various States are common practise.

Zimbabwe? Naw, they don't do "people".

On the Darien thing may I just add that the Darien chest in the museum is the bees knees, especially the incredibly complicated lock, and we should all go and see it and weep into our aprons.
Long. Time. Ago. Ditch the historical baggage. It's not a good reason for anything now.

122

Ronnie, thanks for your post. Do you not agree that the fall out from Darien was one of the main influences in the establishment of the union?

123

Philip, see 95.

Why would anyone be against a referendum? (Whichever side of the debate you are on).

Don't people believe in democracy and freedom to choose?

Or do people subscribe to the viewpoint of some politicians that 'we are all too thick to understand the issues and therefore shouldn't be allowed any opinion. Lets just be told what to think.'

# 123
Could you perhaps be more specific?
Actually, no I'm going to have my lunch. Just take it as read that you're wrong and I'm right. Seeya.

Didn't we just have a referendum about six weeks ago in which the overwhelming majority declined to vote for a referendumist party? Mr Salmond is, by very good fortune, in a position to govern maturely and provide a contrast to the hapless, tongue-tied, overpromoted Mr McConnell; a death or two in the ranks could change his position dramatically. He has no mandate for dirty tricks. If a hundred thousand petitioned for hanging and flogging, would that "force" msps to so legislate ? It seems that Wee Sir Alec is adopting a EuroBureaucrat approach to democracy: If they don't vote our way initially we just keep on asking until they do. This is cr@p, probably dreamed up at the last wine and semtex party with our new friend, the great democrat, Kneecaps McGuiness.

Tavish McTavish and whoever runs the ScotLab gang should tell the wee man where to put this. This is playground politics, much like many of the postings from countless Mad Dogs above. I am all for a referendum but dread this orchestrated minority vox pop approach, this hectoring, bullying, Nazi approach in which hysterical cross dressers cry foul and treason if anyone dares even question their adolescent bile.

Alex Salmond won't raise the dead of Culloden, he is a shifty political operator just like all of them, except that he draws three salaries and lives his entire life as a cheesy soundbite moment. If he misses this opportunity to act maturely he will quickly be joining the other demagoguic scottish comedians, Mr Sheridan and Mr Galloway and, with any luck, Mr Young Parent Brown among the great melancholy has-beens. (Mr McSwinney, of course, is already there, he just hasn't realised it; what was that again, John, about the tram funding, words mean whatever you say they mean ? Was that it ?)

# 92 Jings Crivens

No, correction again. We DIDN'T have a vote on the union a few weeks ago. We had a vote for the Government in the Scottish Parliament.

Can't you tell the difference?

# 128
People aren't thick, they're just fickle and short-termist, see above.

#102.

If you had something coherent to say you wouldn't be so funny.

If you really believe what you are saying in your posts why don't you delegate all your day to day decisions, great as well as small, to the big boy next door.

Also, using you logic, we should become a state of the USA.

You are really very, very funny.

123 - Philip Watson, Edinburgh

I didn't know they had the internet in yon wee bothy yer sitting in up on the side of the Arthur Seat

If you don't have any constructive agrument to make just 'hold yer wheesh'

# 130 tasty

You said : " .....this hectoring, bullying, Nazi approach in which hysterical cross dressers cry foul and treason if anyone dares even question their adolescent bile."

Just thought I would point out a wee typo there. Yopu spelt your name wrongly.

It should be "NASTY"

125

TTPTMOT, I agree but the problem is that we Scots have been brought up on a staple diet of Wallace, Bruce, Bannockburn, Bonnie Prince Charlie, Culloden, Butcher Cumberland, the Clearances etc etc.

It's hard to forget injustices, real or imagined.

# 102 Tax the poor, there's more of them,

That was a private message to AM2. Why don't you just butt out!

131 Ronnie

Yes you did have a vote on the union because Labour, Conservative and Lib-Dems stood for the Union as part of their policy. SNP stood for independence which group got the majority....yer the Union Parties

Yes you are right giving people the chance of a free vote is democracy and thats whet they did a few weeks ago and yes who got the majority of seats ... thats right the Union Parts

QED

#114.

If you have read the Act your level of comprehension is not as good as you think it is.

Guga-I've no dog in this race, but if I did, I would have to say-YES ( btw, where the hell is scottweb?)

# 133
So can I say that your logic leads you an independent republic of each street?

There's an optimum size for a nation. It's bigger than Scotland. It's smaller than Europe.

Right then definitely lunchtime.

#113.

If you know all about the Darien Scheme why do you post the garbage you do?

137 Rionnie W

How can you have a private message on the comment boards.

If you wanted it to be private, label it as such and we will all look away. Perhaps you better go back and delete it

OOPs-that was for 8noodles.

128

Whitegold, I have a degree of sympathy for your opinion but where would we draw the line on issues which would be subject to a referendum? Who would decide? Would we have a referendum on which issues would be subject to a referendum (only joking)?

You've got to laugh have'nt you; all those who want to sign the petition have'nt got a pen!

142

Come on Frank, cheer up, it's Saturday. The fact is that I choose to read both sides of a story. You don't.

146

Maltese, pens will be dearer in an independent Scotland.

Let's see someone do the same in England and we'll be guaranteed our independence.

142 Walter Ego

I klike your style let justs do away with the Scottish Parliment and have a referemdum for everying. It could be just like X-Factor and with proceeds going to fund public services like the Edinburgh Tram or the A9 or Alec Salmond taxi fairs

# 126 Walter Ego

In so far as a lot of very wealthy and influencial people wanted their money back, yes, Darien was of major importance. There had been another attempt at a union vote previously, but that had fallen on it's face.

However, it wasn't the main factor. The main factor was that the King and court had become firmly establisted in London, and so Scotland was, to some extent, lacking the kind of leadership which the politics of the day demanded. We might sneer at that now, but you can't apply modern values to the attitudes of the past.

Without that leadership the aristocracy were even more inclined to fallow their own short term advantage as they saw it. It is a fact that many of those who voted for the union changed their minds in later years after they realised what they had done and saw the effect it was having on Scotland. Even the main English propagandist in Edinburgh - Daniel DeFoe - admitted in later years that the results of the union on Scotland had been a disaster.

150

Jings Crivens, I'd vote for that as long as we don't get to**ers like that character Cowell. Do you agree?

149

GD, without a doubt!

151

Ronnie, we'll have to agree to disagree!

#141.

Your logic is Einsteinian proportion; only one person one the planet can follow it!!!!

# 154 Walter Ego

In that case I don't know what I'd be disagreeing with. Either I have missed it - very possible, can't write and read - or you haven't said what you think in this one. I don't even know what the question was. All I have been doing is answering specific posts from you about the influence of Darien.

# 143 Jings Crivens

That one was private. YOU didn't understand it, did you.

134; a bit of generilising about Edinburgh there, surely? A bit like someone saying that all unionists from Paisley are jakies. No? Maybe you should just haud yir wheesht...or at least get it right.

# 138 Jings Crivens

Actually, if you want to argue figures and policies, the people who got the most votes AND the most seats in the Scottish election (people from all parties and none) were, far and away, the people who were standing on a manifesto policy of INCREASED POWERS FOR THE SCOTTISH PARLIAMENT.

Now, that is a fact. The Labour Party was alone in standing for the status quo, and less than 16% of the electorate voted for them!

Having established that fact, the only question left to discuss in how great should the increase in powers be.

What is more important, the will of the Parliament or the will of the people? I know what Labour and the LD think.

If a referendum, was held now, the answer would be NO. But in a few years time, after we have experienced a real Scottish Government willing to serve it's people instead of it's own greed and it's masters in London, then the public opinion may very well be quite different.

#155
You started it

An election is decided on many points - if independence was the only one, there would only have been two parties/coalitions on the ballot paper.

The SNP leader has stated on many occasions that "a referendum is a once in a generation " occurence.

So do we decide to make up our minds NOW and live with the consequences for the next 20years, or will we continue to argue?

Big business - and any business - would prefer to KNOW where they stand, rather than live in a state of confusion.

YES

Now I'm really confused. The SNP got more seats than any other party. They are in power but it's a minority administration. It will be nigh on impossible for them to have a referendum on independence. But now...the SNP National Council say that with 100,000 signatures it would be difficult for Holyrood MSPs to ignore the "will" of the people and thus a referendum on independence would ensue? BONKERS. What if labour had won the election with one seat more than the SNP? Are we saying that the SNP National Council could have proposed the same thing? "We only came one seat behind labour, but we have 100,000 names on a petition."

Crazy idea (sorry...in my opinion).

"What is divisive is the SNP's deliberate focus on a large number of populist, socialistic policies on particularly sensitive issues,"

So you think we should not do what we feel is better for us, as someone else may want it, too?

Or, in other words, DO NOT CHANGE!!

( I used to think AM2 was a Tory, but now the Wee Free comes to mind)

Re post above...I meant if the motion goes before the National Council,and it is accepted etc etc

I have spare pens. Any takers??

#163 AM2

Surely you, above all people, cannot berate a political party for trying to implement its manifesto.

I'm not keen on too many referenda, as, let's face it, the bovine masses don't know a damn thing!

How else can you explain "Fat Boab" Robbie Williams selling tons of records, whilst the Blues Explosion languish in relative obscurity???

frank mcbride, lusitania

Not trying to be disrespectful but have you actually read the act yourself.
To quote to people "read the act" when discussing the rights and wrongs of an article is pathetic.
It is not as if the act is 1 or 2 pages long where they can read it and get back to you.
If you believe that there is a section of the act that backs up what you are stating then direct people to that part and don't just suggest they read the whole thing.

of course the chances of success depends, anyone remember brian souter referendum on section 28

#170, Walter.

Read the section on Petitions.

Pathetic is rambling on about something you have not read.

Apathy has got to be the greatest hurdle to any progress in the issue of independance. People are content to mump and moan about being under the tyrany of an english parliament but have no back bone to stand up and be counted! Pass that pen, please.

# 163 AM2

I was asking you a specific question on your stance on the increase of tax altering powers. If would seem to me that that wwould have more potential cfor being "devisive" than any of the points which you have picked up on in the past.

You are only giving me generalities in return....SNP policy, cunning plans, and all the usual.

Come on. Just for once, answer the question. You brought it up. You said that you were in favour of increased tax varying powers. I'm only interested in how you square that circle....nothing else.

No "devisive" agenda...honestly.

And why don't you try refering to the SNP as an "inclusive" party. It wants Scotland to be INCLUDED in the family of nations.

The "seperatists" are the unionists. They want Scotland to be seperated from the family of nations and have to do everything through a London filter.

Off to do some work now. I'll look back later to see how you square that circle.

#58

eh ?

Although I'm against a referendum (see#114), I am intrigued to know what the SNP would do after losing it?

If I was the Labour Party I'd let them have their referendum - and watch smug Eck's puss change when they lost it.

Ronnie - the only reason that the SNP is an "inclusive" party is that Salmond would rather have the Fundies peeing out of the tent than into it.

#164 Totally agree with you - there are almost 3.5 eligible voters in Scotland - to demand a referndum on the bais of 100,000 signatures (which do not know are unique) is a joke.

That being said - give them their referendum - and the sooner the better. I suspect that when people look at the idea of "independence" (well what the SNP thinks is independence) they will turn their noses up at it.

That is not to say that the status quo is acceptable either - something the unionist parties do need to address.

* 3.5 million eligible voters - sleeping there!!

:)

This is a good idea. I believe that there are many people who want independance but dont vote for the SNP for other reasons. There are also many people who want to see increasing autonomy without full independance so a multi option referendum is the way to go. I am amazed that political parties who claim to be democrats are so set against a democratic process, the only reason i can figure for them avoiding it is the fear of losing. Its utter nonsense to say that because the SNP didnt get 50% of the vote that less than 50% of the people dont want independance.

The Scottish people have never in their history been consulted on the union so as far as I am concerned Scotland is not a democracy until this referendum has taken place.

Aye, Where do I sign!!!

......................................................

Yes to Referendum
&
Yes to Independence

#181. Taking a Bigot's Money: Are they all registered to vote?

If their sleeping they might forget to register them self's to vote.

Oh

The unionist parties have proven that they just want to hand power back to Westminster or ask their premtion all the time.

It doesn't come across like unionists in Scotland are capable of solving problems. Their points for keeping the union are pure daft.

Independence makes sense!!!

It's sad to see how many Scots display a childlike surge of glee at every 'lollypop' of SNP populism. Try a little thought please.

Guga II - you reveal yourself for the racist, xenophobic, nationalist bigot you are in demanding to know my 'ethnic' origin. You just can't get it through your head that all British citizens are equal under the law and have a right to vote in whatever part of the UK they choose to live. That goes just as much for the Scottish born person who lives in London as the Welsh-born person who lives in Scotland. Whether a legitimate citizen of these islands was born in England, Scotland, Wales or Ireland is completely irrelevant - much though racist 'wee-scotlanders' like you would like that to be different.

All nationalism is founded on a mythological appeal to the 'ties of blood' which is atavistic (look it up) and fundamentally racist.

Ronnie W - your grasp of history is extremely one-eyed. Take a trip to York - sacked and burned by the Scots, Newcastle, Durham, Carlisle - all sacked, burned, pillaged and raped by the Scottish tribes. The Scottish aristocracy and merchant class bankrupted itself in the Darien Venture - arguably the biggest commercial failure in history. The English parliament bailed them out because anything was preferable to this endless border warfare of marauding tribes. The first thing the English did was to accept a Scottish King as ruler of the entire UK.
The poor bloody English have never had an English king - they have had Scots (the Stewarts), the Welsh Tudors - Henry VIII and Elizabeth 1, Normans - the PLantagenets, Dutch - William and Mary - but never, ever an English king. And do you know why? Because they never placed any emphasis on ethnicity/ race; they were always willing to settle for the most practical solution that guaranteed the greatest collective security and wealth. That is what the union has done for 300 years. Have a referendum, have two, have one a year for the next hundred years - the Scots will never vote for separation from England, because they are not stupid.

186

Yes!

159 Ronnie W

I haven't checked you teh accracy of your figures but if less than 16% of the elctorate voted for Labour the same figure of 16%approximately must be true of the SNP.

On the first choice ballot there was only 15,853 votes between them on the first choice (0.8% of votees cast) and 53,839 combined transfer votes

So you argument if true for labour and is also true for SNP

sorry facts speak for themselves and Salmond is trying to force independece in through the backdoor because he can't get it through parliment

#186, I admit that Guga's comments are a little extreme but you reading on history is bizarre at best and completely incorrect at worst. I'm not sure that it has any relavence but you point about the nationality of kings and queens is out of the window. Not sure of the ones before the union of the crowns but i can assure you that only one King of England was Scottish, James VI/I and the only reason he was accepted is because as the only possible claimant it was that or declare a republic. To say that the english have never put any emphasis on race is also bizarre with all the racial tension there is in England today, and most Scots who have travelled in England have also felt the intimidation. Dont get me wrong I am not trying to say that Scots are better than English or anything like that, but trying to paint the English through history as blind to race and creed is going to require you to not only rewrite the history of england but also the history of most of the other nations in the world.

#168 Tweedmouth

You are absolutely right.

From the first days our England the only aim of its ruling classes was rape and pillage in the name of security and wealth:Wales, Ireland, France, Scotland, Africa, Asia, North and Central America.

Unfortunately during some of this period they were aided and abetted (to our etenal shame) by the Scots.

Fortunately, you are wrong about Scottish Independence as, as you said, the Scots are not stupid, only a little slow at times.

#190 Scotsman in Dublin

What utter rubbish have you ever crossed the border and been to England. For the last 20 years I have travelled all over the UK and apart from the London arae and North Wales I have always found the rest of UK friendly, helpdful and not much different from the Scots. I would add that the only nation that I find that uses intimidation is the Scots against the English.

Racial tension exists all over the Uk and is not unique to England, hasn't there been an aslyum seeker stabbed to death in Glasgow

To all Scots wanting to break from the Union. Put your Petition on the Web and who knows, you may get many more signatures from the English than the 100,000 you are aiming for. If we can't get a referendum to break away from the Union we will support yours with unbounded enthusiasm.

See how supportive we can be towards our Scottish friends.

#191. CarrotTop
"Melanthios. Are you a girl?"

Last time I looked...no. Why do you ask? If you say you've "googled" it and saw it said Black Rose, continue down the page.

#192

Should refer to #186.

# 194
Kent
That's down in France isn't it?

Melanthios - ended up genitally ambiguous didn't he? Or was that Menelaus.

Frank - ruling classes are the same everywhere. The English ruling classes came out in top in their struggles with the ruling classes of Ireland and Wales because they were better organised and could call on greater resources. There was never a definitive settlement of the battle between the Scots and English ruling classes until 1707, when a draw was declared. As all this was happening the vast majority of people throughout the British Isles - whether nominally Irish, Welsh, Scots or English - were living in squalor and enjoyed few if any political, social, economic or cultural rights. Basically they all did what they were told or paid the conequences.

History is a hugely important subject but wouldn't we better off consigning it to the past and thinking about today and tomorrow? We have argued on another thread about independence but I am all for a referendum right now - it's the only thing that might get me to vote for the SNP. My view is that Scotland has all the power it needs to sort out its problems and build a just, prosperous society, which, I am sure, is what all of us want. So let's have a referendum so that those who supprt independence can explain how severing ties with our oldest and most important trading partner which give us complete and perpetually guaranteed access to a market of 50 million people is in Scotland's best interests.

The onus is on the SNP to explain why what we have is not enough and why it is worth risking so much to get independence. Let's lose the braveheart bull, the accusations of cowardice, the name calling and whatever else - on all sides - and actually examine the case for independence. Nationalists want change, they must explain why it is necessary and why we cannot do what needs doing with what we have. A referendum would allow that discussion to happen. We should have one as soon as possible.

200 signatures already

197

TTPTMOT, don't call people a Kent.

200

Frank, very impressive.

194

John2, you are correct, 100% correct. How is Kent today?

Tweedmouth , its because of the little Englanders currently among us and your warped sense of history and misguided superiority that many people, of many nations want nothing to do with England. Each time you spout your racist bile another few waverers are converted. I bet you want to pull England out of Europe to keep your Queens head on your overvalued currency too.

So why is the British Union such a benefit to Scots anyway , with 1 in 4 below the poverty line- some in conditions worse than Baghdad, and 25,000 of its brightest leaving the worst performing economy in Western Europe every year, in a branch economy with a GDP 2/3 that of Eire. How can a nation that brought the world the Scottish Enlightenment decay to such an extent so quickly. Independence or a dead anglicized region this is the choice the Scots must make.

Hey! The Man Who Knows. You are often quite entertaining. What do the auguries say today, o MWK? Has wee Eck sacrificed the right kind of chicken on this occasion?

202

Hello Tax!

Don't know if Alex knew much about this ruse. A very angry (and increasingly fat faced) man I believe.

# 205
Out of interest, how is that little Fleming/Walloon spat going? Which lot was it who gave popular support to their racist nationalist party (properly racist, not just racist in the bitch-slapping anti/pro Scottish/English sense as it is usually used on this forum. They had a really fit blonde lass as their front-woman I seem to remember).

#185 Noun: populism
1. The political doctrine that supports the rights and powers of the common people in their struggle with the privileged elite

# 207
Yes, he does have quite chubby chops doesn't he. I always think of him in a wee sailor suit with shorts wanting to be a train driver or something. Or the Churchill dog. "Pay £600m for trams? Oh no, no, no, no". Bless.

#206, Tax The Poor, I understand that Alex Salmond, who seemingly has a terrible temper, is absolutely livid with his National Council. Not a good week at all for Mr Salmond, with John Swinney's balls up with the trams his major irritant.

210

No' bright enough to drive a train. No' bonnie enough to wear shorts, either. His face is getting fatter the angrier he gets.

i was talking to a friend today I'd not saw in months and he was commenting on how he's noticed a desided rize in Anti_English sentements out his way (a verry posh bit of Glasgow mind.)

He spent most of his working life down there and only returned to Scotland (where he was born and brought up) recently. He's started wondering if he wants to live in Scotland for the rest of his life and the neighbours are atacking him for his lack of pride in his Scotishness. Oh yea and they're spreading stories anout an English guy who lives down the road.

Welcome to the New Scotland, a place where only conformity is welcomed.

You think this dosn't apply to this story? Look at the unthinking responces here, look at how people who don't want Independence are being openly atacked.

Welcome to the New Scotland - just like the old on but at least 20 years behind it.

oh Yea:

NO.

# 212 et al.
Actually it's not going to stop me poking fun at him and not agreeing with most of his policies, but I, er, do quite like the chap. Seems pretty straight and unslimey, says what he believes etc. Won't last.
But he's still WRONG! So there.

I miss the football. Currently watching the talentless Lily Allen at Glastonbury on BBC2. Not a patch on Lena Martell.

215

Tax The Poor, Salmond is as straight as a Curly Wurly.

# 186 Tweedmouth

You said : "Ronnie W - your grasp of history is extremely one-eyed. Take a trip to York - sacked and burned by the Scots, Newcastle, Durham, Carlisle - all sacked, burned, pillaged and raped by the Scottish tribes. The Scottish aristocracy and merchant class bankrupted itself in the Darien Venture - arguably the biggest commercial failure in history. The English parliament bailed them out"

I really don't know why I'm bothering to do this.....but what you have written is such utter drivel.....here goes.

1) York has never at any time been sacked by a Scottish army, nor taken by a Scottish army. York was too far south.

2) Neither Newcastle nor Durham have ever been sacked by a Scottish army. The defences of both were two strong for the sort of raiding parties which these "armies" generally were. The surrounding areas were certainly harried and sometimes burned, but just as often they would pay protection money.

3) Carlisle was at one time included in the Kingdom of Scotland. It was from time to time beseiged, but as far as I remember it was never taken during crossborder warfare.

4) One does not "rape" cities. I'll explain that to you when you grow up a bit.

5)The English Parliament didn't "bale out" anybody. The EnglishParliament were to a large extent responsible for the ultimate disaster that the Darien Scheme became. The English Parliament at the start petitioned the King - William II of Scotland, and I say that so that the irony of the situation is made clear - to refuse to allow any English shipmaster to assist in any way the Scottish settlers in Darien. The King obliged the English Parliament. Scots were to be refused all assistance. When things started to go wrong there were English ships in the neighbourhood who could have lent a hand and eased the problems considerably, but they refused because they had been ordered to refuse. The reason for this was that

Sorry to interrupt the thrust and parry here, but I found a decent article in the Telegraph. No inflammatory comments and a fair representation of fact.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinio...

# 217
Yeah... it's hard to tell with any of them.

Digression: I think that very few people who have what it to get to the top of a political party are the kind of people I want running the country :-( I'd like to see a second chamber of less greasy-pole-climbing wastrels, like the Lords but populated by a cross-section of responsible people drawn from society in a similar manner to jury duty to serve full-time, to deliberate properly without a party machine in the way.

#211 Kimo sabe

The only reason Alex will be upset is because he is aware of the vile smelling flatulence that will eminate from the unionist horde.

Anti-democatic, backdoor tactics, circumventing the will of the people. To mention only some of the lies, half truths and distortions.

The unionist Parties are the ones who are ignoring the will of the people as the majority of voters voted for Parties that either support Independence or increase powers for the Scottish Parliament.

I'll sign. Democracy is stirring with labour's defeat. Things can only get better ... for the SNP and Scotland.

#218
See #84
Let Tweeders burble on, the past is harmless unless it is used for rabble-rousing when deciding on the present and future.

nice rants coming up here.

Can I quote them for their silly ness? 'lies, half truths and distortions' Wow - that's alot of hate!

#213

A friend of a friend told me that his friend had been to the moon and, it really is made of green cheese.

Should I believe him?

# 221
Calm down Frank, you'll give yourself a hernia! "vile smelling flatulence that will eminate from the unionist horde"
I did not realise my fellow unionists were Orcs!
Get a grip.
PS your feet are cheesy and your mother dresses you funny

225. frank mcbride:

I'm confused.

Are you saying that anything that dosn't agree with 'gee! Arn't we all lovely in this country!' is a lie?

Well there's his experence, there's the rise in Homophobia that i've been hearing from most Queer people I know (to the extent some are frightend of going out of the house), the atacks on Polish workers...

# 188 Jings Crivens

Don't take the figure too seriously. I didn't check it either.

I was only quoting the figure AM2 used as the SNP vote back at him, reducing it a little, and labelling it "the Labour vote".

So don't be sorry. and, if you want to be accurate, the First Minister isn't "trying to force" anything at the moment. It is the SNP National Council who are reported to be going to organise a referendum petition - as is their right.

Or your right, should you so chose.

225

Frank, with your imagination, I am sure that you will.

Regarding the Darien scheme.
The BBC has the story online at http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/civil_war_revolution...

222

mesmiths, how come so many dafties come from Fife?

230

Colin, thank you but see my grannie? You could never teach her how to suck eggs.

Marriage of cousins.
Vestigial tails and webbed feet the lot of them.
I heard they also supply babies for the Unionists to eat.

#193, what exactly is your problem? I have not said that racial tension is only an English problem I was responding to a poster who was having a rant and trying to paint England as "never putting any emphasis on ethnicity/ race" and then you weigh in from the Scottish self depreciating clan - "The only nation that I find that uses intimidation is the Scots against the English"????? This is rubbish, and yes i have crossed the border and I have met lots of English people, many of whom are great but I have also met with racism from English people against Scotland - fact.

#224.

Only going on past evidence, my dear.

Read their statements before the election of May 2007 and go as far back as you like for the proofs.

# 224
"In a bath of spit"
That's quite funny.
Pass the rubber duck!

233. Tax the poor:

I heard they also supply babies for the Unionists to eat.

---Yea and unionists kill Pure Bred Scotish children and use their blood to make pan bread.

236. Tax the poor:

quack, quack

Or 'Independence before Economic Policy' if you will.

# 237
Oh thank CHRIST another sense of humour
It's hard work with Frank and Ronnie out-douring each other

235

Frank, Frank, never address a woman as " my dear". As a principled socialist (and I know that you are), you should know that this is extremely patronising. I think that you should apologise to Elizabeth.

#229 Walter.

I'm getting to like you! But, is the moon really made of green cheese..... I mean, really?

#231 don't tar us all with the same brush as Brown and Ming.

239

Tax, you are 110% correct. It's bad enough being on this forum on a Saturday afternoon without having right serious b******s on here as well.

242

mesmiths, I think that Frank comes from Fife as well.

#240

My dear Elizabeth, I do humbly apologise if I have offended your sensibilities.

simplicity itself - let the people decide.

245. frank mcbride:

I'll try but I can hold a drug like others retain water.

241

Good afternoon. The moon may well be made of green cheese but there sure ain't none of that commodity here in Larkhall.

245

Well done Frank.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RHmaJ6Ey9E

#250 Is this a recommendation or a warning?

#249

Thank you Walter, you'll make a gent out of me yet. But, IS the moon made of green cheese.

BTW, Have I offended, or hopefully bored Tax the poor into submission.

#247 Elizabeth, I'm ecstacyed at the possibility that you may forgive me.

Fitlike?
I can't help having a chuckle at the anti SNP/Independent Scotland contributers to this posting. Quoting the Dariem scheme as a reason not to have our own country back is absurd.
That scheme was set up for a bunch of chinless wonders to make a killing.
Good to see AM2 posting his usual line of drivel and cut/pasting. He must be a lonely sad person.
The day is coming

252. Dumyat:

a warning, defenatly a warning.

In an independent Scotland that will be considerd entertainment.

#251 AM2 erm, yes, in your world...I suppose that is the part. Can I help it if you only see the racist part in this? If this antagonises English taxpayers, do they not have the power to get their own 'treats'? Does this article not show that the press in England, even in such a tame article, are inciting anger in England. I mean, how dare Scotland be so presumptuous as
to give benefits to their people that have not already existed in England? Is this the path you've chosen to follow AM2? Why blame a Scottish Executive for the failings of Westminster? But then, that's what you're told to do....

Even you, with your spiteful ideas, must admit that article is far more balanced than the previous bile-induced inflammatory crap emanating from that newspaper.
Mr Cochrane has put it to the reader that the other parties must do their part to catch up to the SNP instead of standing in awe, that a Scottish Executive is actually standing up for Scottish rights.

# 253
Nah, I'm just cut-and-thrusted out for today. I might manage the occasional cheap jibe but otherwise, see y'all on the next trams story. Ta-ta!

254

Jimmy the Pie, how is the swell in the North Sea? Nothing serious I hope. As the person who mentioned Darien in the first place , let me explain my reason for doing so: it is my view that we ended up with the union directly as a result of Darien. Scotland (ie the monied people who ran Scotland - just like today) was nearly bankrupt. The union with England offered financial salvation for a lot of influential people. Here we are 300 years on and the situation is still the same: monied people like Brian Souter and Tom Farmer stilll pulling the strings.

Ronnie W

If its is everyones right to ask for a referendum why does the SNP National Council want to ask for a referendum only a few weeks after the elections.
Are they adopting a Robert the Bruce approach of if at first etc or just can't accept their rejection of their indepenece policy by the Scottish Electorate.

258

AM2, do not jest about the Wee Frees. Not to be jested about.

#93. Tax the poor, there's more of them: If that is true then that's only 1 reason, If most of the members are temporary then, may be this council has a sell by date so to speak.

Surely Scotland having a seat in the UN is more important any way, which we don't have (That seat won't be tempoary).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FOLK of Scotland should beware Westminster can't be trusted!!!! Come on Scottish Independence.

you know my hear's going to bleed with all the puzzled scratching I've been doing lately.

264. Eve:

FOLK of Scotland should beware Westminster can't be trusted!!!! Come on Scottish Independence.

---why's 'folk' capatalised? Do you mean Folk music?

#234 Scotsman in Dublin

I'm sorry if you have suffered intimadation from the English I can only repeat I have never come across any in 20 years and I have been all round England on business and holiday.

It dos occur in Scotland against the English and lets not pretend it doesn't. As someone earlier said we are brought up on Wallace, Bruce, Bannockburn, etc and taught to hate the English by our peers. As anexample of Scottish imitimation occurd when an English colleague of mine attended a public meeting in Scotland. This highy qualified and intelligent guy was shocked at the abuse he received from this group just because he was English.

I was shocked, horrified and embarroused at my fellow Scots behaviour and have never heard or experienced anything happning like that in England. This kind of hostility has also occurred to a few of my English colleagues who come here on business

To all you posters trying to infer that because the SNP did not get 50% of the vote the Scottish people rejected independance dont you think this is more than a little disingenuous? After all the SNP are not the only party that support independance and it would be naive to think that there are no patriots hiding out in the other parties...

Jimmy the Pie

Your haven't made clear what day is coming do you mean Sunday

266. Jings Crivens:

I, likewise, have never sufferd any discrimination when I've lived in/ visited England but how often have I heard Scotish people say they hate the English?

As I said on another thread here:

If you replaced 'English' with 'Black' it would be unaceptable so why's it allright to hate the English.

#267
Unionists are patriots. The point is that the national interest (Scotland's) is best served by the Union. You can disagree with it but I think it is an oversimplification to dismiss Unionism as anti-Scottish.

#262 Jings.

I believe that a multi-option referendum is on offer.

Please! Don't blame the SNP of attempting to thwart the will of the will of the people in trying to have a referendum.

All Parties, except NuLab, before the election, were advocating Independence or more powers for the Scottish Parliament.

It is the Unionist parties that have created the current situation and no amount of spin can alter that fact.

267. Scotsman in Dublin:

the SNP are not the only party that support independance

---yes but they're the only major one.

I don't doubt that a large percentage of Scotish people suport Independence and if it was shown to be the will of the Scotish people I will abide by it - and then leave Scotland on the next train.

And 'scotsman in dublin' can I sak: why are you so knowlagable about what's happening in this country when you don't live in it (judging from your user name anyway?)

#264
Hi Eve
That was one example but there are plenty of others. Do you think Scotland is going to be in the G9, or have the EU presidency any time soon, or have any more influence that the other small players?
My argument is that "Scotland" the nation (people) do have a seat - the UK one. And that "Scotland" the nation exerts more international presence through that shared interest than it ever will by itself than it would as "Scotland" the sovereign state.

267 Scotsman in Dublin

Which other major policitical party wanted independence and had it in their manifesto? By expanding your argument that other parties have hidden member who want independence, then the SNP must have hidden members who want the Union to remain!!!!

Also please clarify what type of Patroit you mean. A Patroit is "one who loves and defends his or her country" so can apply to Scottish, Welsh, British, etc it is not the sole preserve of the SNP

dyslecxxia
...
through that shared interest than it ever would as "Scotland" the sovereign state.

198. Tax the poor, there's more of them, Edinburgh / 23 Jun 2007

"Melanthios - ended up genitally ambiguous didn't he? Or was that Menelaus."

No. It was Minniemaus....and as had been said before it is also a something or other (much info here) in the solar system.Melanthios also wrote a treatise on painting.(or rather Melanthius)
Hey...what's in a name? Better than using my real one, as you did.
Up the workers

ps...not to be confused with Melanthius. (I think I just have)

I'll get ma coat!

275. Jings Crivens:

You should just go for the juguler and ask why you can only love your country if you beleve in Independence.

If that's not a peice of fashistic reasoning I don't know what is.

#42 Tweedmouth

You are a disgrace!

271 frank mcbride

Independence is not the same as granting more powers to teh assemblies. Do not confuse the 2

The point is and I'm sick of repeating, we hade an election where 1 party stood for independence and didn't get a sufficient mandate from the people. So ratehr than accept the results of teh election they then ignore the electorat and try for it again. As I said earlier its just like Zimbaw, don't get the result you want, ignore and make sure you get teh result you want

To all the racist, racist sayers, wouldbe racists etc., etc.

I am not bigotted, prejudiced or biased in any way, I do not give a damn who or what destroys the Brittish State.

225. frank mcbride, lusitania / 5:23pm 23 Jun 2007
#213
A friend of a friend told me that his friend had been to the moon and, it really is made of green cheese.
Should I believe him?

"..what?..that he's got a friend?"

242. mesmiths, fife / 5:40pm 23 Jun 2007

#231 don't tar us all with the same brush as Brown and Ming.

My gran always got this wrong. She always said "Don't tar us all with the same feather."

#260 AM2....I dunno, you've yet to explain that.
It's been your raison d'etre to try to put a racist slant on many of the SNP's ideas.

You explain it.

Dear Crivens:

Calm down and type better or people will just try to disregard your arguments by making a fool of your spelling.

# 277
Melanthios
Oh well so much for the classical education. I was off on one with that Spartan bloke and the guy who wound up Odysseus.
P.S. I like the workers. My "name" is only occasionally apt in any but the ironic sense.

#58 I thought that McConnell was bordering on the "thuggish" at the most recent FMQ.

And boy did he set himself up for a fall with that ridiculous question on airport rail links. How could we have had an FM who has such a lack of nouse?

279 connaughtboy

Why is a disgrace to have a reasoned argument for the benefits of the union

#280 Jings.

So the rules, as set out in the Scotland Act, are to be arbitrated by YOU.

Interesting concept of democracy.

#63 AJM

Undemocratic you say?

Apparently over 75% of Scots (yes the people of Scotland) would like to have a referendum on independence. The SNP are in fact the only one of the parties that is truly democratic!

elizabeth veldon

Point taken if only these things had a spell checker but it would need to be able to understand English and Scots

291. Jings Crivens;

and rant, don't forget rant...

TTPTMOT

I really wanted my moniker to be Melon Toes, but couldn't spell it correctly.

#282.

No, silly!

Is the moon really made of green cheese?......I mean REALLY.

I'l ltry to stay calm however...

The whole thing here that you HAVE to be all for a flag waving Independence (i have posted on this site before that I'm not anit-Independence but anti-Nationalism) or you're not a good Scot or even a good person.

Well forgive me but this is a democrosy and as such people are alowed to disagree with you.

you win an argument by reasoned debate NOT mud slinging and bullying.

#86 Walter

I think you conveniently forget that the English helped to sabotage Darien!

"it is difficult to see the parliament defying the will of the people"

Scotland is not standing still. No-one ever voted to create the union; no-one ever yet voted to keep it. The SNP is giving us this right in the same way as the 1997 referendum gave us the option to restore our Parliament. And if the vote went against Independence, then of course we would want a further referendum in the future. England didn't take "no" for an answer in 1314. I still did not hear of any popular celebrations of the 300th anniversary of the union - does anyone know of any?

Scottish not British

281 Frank McBride

"I do not give a damn who or what destroys the Brittish State."

Be careful what you say as it seems to give the impression you support violence or terrorist acts if it would destroy the British State.

That’s quite a step from a discussion on a referendum, perhaps you better log off and calm down

300 years is enough

300 years is long enough.

292 elizabeth Veldon

Absolutely

I hope we don't make it to 301

296. connaughtboy:

and that it was the Scottish parlament that waisted Scottish money, lives and eventualy a whole economy on an ill advised atempt at empire?

So our own leaders ruined the country but it's all England's falt?

Gosh that sounds like just the right sort of Adult aproch to things that will make us an effective and well run country.

Or not pershaps...

#92 You assume too much and it will come home to bite you. Salmond is winning converts every day and it will become unstoppable very soon. The last executive have now been shown in their true light, liars, incompetent, corrupt and undemocratic.

Independence IS coming and there is nothing you can do or say to stop it.

Oh GOD Darien again.
Factoid of the day: Darien province is so impenetrable that it was not even topographically mapped until the advent of cloud-penetrating radar altimetry in the 1960s. Maybe, just maybe, given responsibility for the future of the Scottish Empire our forefathers could have chosen somewhere... less crap?

Jim P: 299, 300

Do you want to at least t-r-y to have a reasoned debate?

I know I'm trying to do so.

#93 I'm sure that most Scots would love to have a "permanent seat on the security council"

Y'erse!

Jim P

Are you making a contribution as just counting

1 SNP canvassers have been asking people how they would vote in an independence referendum for the past 3 years. We can gather 100,000 signatures very easily. We also know how widespread support for independence is, across supporters of all political parties.

So do Labour, Lib Dems and Tories because they all canvass as well.

Why do you think their party strategists are so determined not to see the referendum go ahead?

Do you think it is because there is no support for independence? If they believed that it would be in their interests to hold the referendum as soon as possible, because a negative result would kill off the prospect of independence for a generation.

Incidentally, all the posters who conflate the Labour, Lib Dem and Tory vote and say it is a unionist vote need to understand that there is no such thing as a unionist vote. People vote Labour, Lib Dem or Tory for a combination of reasons which in most cases does not include their stance on the Union.

#300

Absolutely. 300 years is quite long enough to lose the Scottish/English chip on the shoulder and get on with being a proper country. United we stand!

304. connaughtboy:

your post here reads like a 1930's fashist rant.

N oI'm not calling you a Fachist but your defenatly not a democrat.

You read my post about not ussing bullying tactics to win an argument didn't you?

#96 Patent nonsense. What makes you think that the "Unionists" are paying Salmond?

I knew i'd get a few 'hooks' by using the word patriot :) Too many comments to answer but just quickly before i head out the door to enjoy my Saturday night...
1. Patriot - yes people can be British, Welsh and other patriots but i have always found it hard to accept unionists calling themselves Scottish patriots, to me its like a French man in 1942 supporting the Germans and calling himself a patriot, doesnt make any sense - and before anyone says that this is democratic country the invasion of France is not just rememeber that no-one in Scotland ever voted for the union.
2. Dear Elizabeth - dont presume that because i am not currently in Scotland that i have not lived there most of my life and i am not coming back, or that i am not due an opinion just because i am temporarally out of the country. p.s. a certain amount of hypochrisy in your comments given that you state that in the event of independance you will "leave on the next train".
3. And all this rubbish about Scotland not voting for independance has to stop - Scotland has never had the opportunity to vote for independance. You only need to look at these forurms to see that people state loads of reasons why they wont vote for the SNP, does it not follow that there must be some that would vote for independance but not the SNP, as for the comment that their must be unionists in the SNP that is the winner of the most pedantic comment of the week.

Asides all this bantering, what are all you unionists afraid of? If you are all so confident that Scotland doesnt want independance why arent you for the referendum, surely then the nationalists you seem to despise so much would be dead in the water?

309. Miss H:

all the posters who conflate the Labour, Lib Dem and Tory vote and say it is a unionist vote need to understand that there is no such thing as a unionist vote. People vote Labour, Lib Dem or Tory for a combination of reasons which in most cases does not include their stance on the Union.

---oh and you know this how exactly?

You can see into the heart of each and every voter?

Miss H

Do you really believe that if political party canvassers asked for opinion that everyone would answer honestly Don't you think a few would say anything just to get rid off them

Also if independence was an important topic for the Scottish Electorate then more people would have turned out also SNP would have had a landslide victory

313. Scotsman in Dublin:

have always found it hard to accept unionists calling themselves Scottish patriots, to me its like a French man in 1942 supporting the Germans and calling himself a patriot

---that's one of the most offensive things I've read in a long time.

You equate the Union with Nazi Germany?

Are you serious? Do you know how much peoiple that would not only offend but actualy cause distress too?

Please don't engage in such cheap and nasty tricks.

As to you living or not living in Scotland:

While you presume to know the true heart of the Scotish people you enjoy the friuts of another land. I'm sorry but such an all encompasing knowlage of how things stand on the street today while you live elsewhere is astounding.

I am happy to support and see the independent scotland and wales

#213 elizabeth

Embarrassing post Liz!

A rather emotional response, elizabeth, you should calm down.

313. Scotsman in Dublin:

Asides all this bantering, what are all you unionists afraid of? If you are all so confident that Scotland doesnt want independance why arent you for the referendum, surely then the nationalists you seem to despise so much would be dead in the water?

---i've never said such a thing. I've always just said that the SNP stir up nationalist fealing that they are bound to know will result in a rise of racism, homophobia and any other nasty thing you can name.

#306 elizabeth veldon

"Do you want to at least t-r-y to have a reasoned debate? I know I'm trying to do so."

It's ma country - I'll write fit I like.

318. connaughtboy:

embarasing in what way?

#298 Jings.

You are a small minded literalist. Almost good enough to be a NuLab councillor but, certainly good enough to be Wendy, "wendy, wendy wendy", Alexander's spokesperson.

321. Jim P:

are you actualy posting in the Netherlands?

On holiday?

You see we get these people posting here that don't actualy LIVe in Scotland.

It's a bit like the good old Professional Scot Sean Connery himself: he may scream about independence but he lives in America and has no intention of ever residing in the Uk again because it would cost too much in tax.

#324 Chairman Gordon....certainly not from the Labour supporters and assorted Unionists on here....the spelling is atrocious today! (From both sides!)

#320 elizabeth veldon

"any other nasty thing you can name"

I can name; war, death and destruction, concentration camps, massacres of indigenous peoples - all gong to be caused by Nationalism in Scotland? Come to think of it, you could be right, if the British "nation" is an example of nationalism.

326:

As long as you don't have myself down as a Labor suporter or a Unionist I'm happy.

#325 elizabeth veldon

How do you ken that ma name is Jim P or where I live?

327. Jim P:

and Jings got acused of Sophistry...

#288 It's disgraceful when someone comes up with a statement like this because any serious Unionist would never try to argue that Scotland would become a banana republic:

"The 'greatest little nation in the world' would be reduced to the role of a banana republic once it split from the massive economic and political clout of England"

Yes, argue the case but surely you don't support this cr@p? Or do you?

#328
I didn't classify anyone in particular, but...
spelling is still awful. I dunno about others, but my computer underlines a misspelled word in red to bring my attention to it.
Semantics, I know. Sorry.

Jings Crivens, Paisley

"Are you making a contribution as just counting"

Just hitting the 300! Finger on the trigger for 400 if we keep going at this rate!

#320 Elizabeth.

You've just castigated Scotsman and now YOU'RE doing the same!!!!

Both of you calm down. We all want the best for Scotland. We just have different ideas of how to achieve it. Stirring up hatreds is not one of the most productive.

#303 elizabeth

I find it difficult to have a discussion with someone possessing the spelling competence of a 4 year old.

331. connaughtboy;

I think the 'discrase' is in the way other seek to destroy reasoned debate and call all Unionists discrases to the Scotish Nation.

335. frank mcbride;

i apoligise for getting a little het up.

I get a little passionate sometimes.

336. connaughtboy:

Now my sweet I've taken a deap breath and want to stear the debate back onto a decent level.

surely you wish to do the same?

Chairman Gordon.

#297 Jim P

What popular celebrations took place for the 300th anniversary of the union?

Here in Shettleston, there was nae sign of a celebration.

Andrew.

#336 Connaughtboy.

The West's awake.

That was a cheap jibe at Elizabeth. Leave it out, please.

#322 Elizabeth

Well apart from your dreadful spelling you made the following statement:

"He's started wondering if he wants to live in Scotland for the rest of his life and the neighbours are atacking him for his lack of pride in his Scotishness. Oh yea and they're spreading stories anout an English guy who lives down the road."

Liz, you do yourself no favours making such hysterical and disjointed statements.

343. connaughtboy:

perhaps you should go through this thread and point out all the bad English used by other posters? Or is it just me?

Could you please try a reasoned debate rather than name calling?

#325 elizabeth veldon

Sir, you ask me:
"are you actualy posting in the Netherlands?
On holiday?
You see we get these people posting here that don't actualy LIVe in Scotland."

Are you so narrow minded that the view of someone living outside of Scotland should not appear on these pages. Every so often this discussion arises. The Scotsman has not included residence as a qualification for posting.

Are you Scottish?

#342 Frank

I have an opinion and I will express it. Just you concentrate on what you want to say on here and leave others to say what they want. Preferably in an intelligent way.

#344 Elizabeth

Let me hear you defend your rant as quoted by me in #343.

345. Jim P:

I ask you if you can truelly know the situation 'one the streets' if you don't live in Scotland noty that you have no right to post if you don't, just that your opinion of what's happening in this counytry carries less weight than someone who experences it every day.

Yes I am Scotish. Born and brought up here, educated here apart from University.

Oh and since we're on the subject of cheap tricks: why do you adress me as 'sir?'

connaughtboy 347 +348:

Do you realy think it's aproprate to basicly tell people to shut up? Isn't that bullying?

What 'rant' I posted about something a friend told me. Would you prefer if I'd recorded him saying it?

#348

Dinnae haud yer breath, connaughtboy. He has the rant quoted by me in #345 tae deal wi ana.

315

Yes because this is an exercise in voter identification. We are not asking them to vote for us you see, so there is no pressure - we are simply identifying their voting intentions. It's a very accurate system.

As for the assumption that everyone who supports independence will go out and vote SNP – it doesn’t work that way. People who have always voted a particular way will often keep voting that way, irrespective of whether the party they are voting for is unionist or nationalist. Tories vote Tory, Liberals vote Lib Dem etc because they feel those parties best express the values they believe in. But that doesn’t mean that those voters are ‘unionists’. Many voters are actually quite neutral on the issue of independence – they aren’t very strongly for it but they aren’t very strongly against it either.

Labour supporters are another matter. It is going to be very very interesting over the next 4 years to see how Labour handles the situation. They probably know – as we do – that many of their supporters also support independence for Scotland. That’s why they tried to run a very Scottishy campaign – lots of Saltires etc and best wee country in the world rhetoric, coupled with massive scare stories about independence.

So where do Labour go from there? They played the Scottish card and it didn’t save them. Constant attacks on independence and on the SNP would be bad tactics, it would make them look like bad losers. Also, the fact that the SNP has actually won an election and formed the government will in itself increase the SNP vote next time round. Among floating voters there are many people who actually vote for the party they think is most likely to win. The SNP having won once, people are more likely to vote for them the next time. This is especially going to be the case with people who support independence but previously voted Labour. That is a massive number of voters.

So as I said it will be very interesting to s

# 265. elizabeth veldon: Cap Lock was stuck on "folk" = people, in primary School we use to sing songs with the word folk in it and I'm sure it meant people.

#347 Connaughtboy

You are a boor.

349 in the sense that only females die of cervical cancer I think she was probably right.

352. Jim P and 345:

Do I have to report you for your transphobic behaviour?

You truelly show the Nationalist debate in a good light.

354. Eve:

My appoligies. I engaged in a cheap jibe.

Chairman Gordon.

Thank god I don't live in Stirling any more. I'd hate to come accross you in "The Red Lion".

#351 Elizabeth

Now you are twisting things. I didn't tell anyone to shut up. As for your rant, sorry to tell you this but it is totally and utterly fatuous! Maybe you could explain what you mean by:

"Oh yea and they're spreading stories anout an English guy who lives down the road."

And what point are you trying to make. Is it even relevant?

#359 Jim P

Together with Connaughtboy you are making a very good Unionist arguement.

Sod this, I've had enough. Can't make my mind up whether or not to vote aye or nay on referendum. Too hot anyway, 35 degrees, so I'm off to a little bar by the mediterranean to mull over the pros and cons of independence.

#355 Frank

please get off your high horse.

Elizabeth has been deliberately trying to wind people up on this thread and therefore she is fair game for criticism.

elizabeth veldon's first post...

"desided rize in Anti_English sentements out his way (a verry posh bit of Glasgow mind.)"...

(Yes - that is what it says)...

reduced this thread tae peesh; its nae improvin wi time and is ower abusive for me.

Banff it is a burghs toun,
A kirk wi'oot a steeple,
A midden o' dirt at ilky door,
An damn't unceevil people.

#353 Miss H a welcome attempt to raise the level of debate today. If people always vote for the winner you would not be where you are today and you know full well that there was something of a protest vote that benefited you. However that is not the main reason I have posted.

I would like some honesty here about this matter. Do you think that this idea of petition is a good idea at this point in time. AS has just established contact with the unionists in NI, he also wants to appeal to indifferent unionists that he can be trusted. AS could also be weaker elsewhere because of this. I do not know whether AS stressed unity today or not, but the fact he has to is interesting. So is this a premature act which is likely to polarise voters to early before the SNP have had chance to prove anything, what do you think, a little bit of your gut feel here please, not the usual party line stuff.

362. connaughtboy:

so the move towards a blinkerd unthinking and reactionary mindset I've noted in Scotland in the last year or so has nothing to do with the stirring up of Nationalist fealing?

So you can scream about how great Scotland is and how we're delt down by the English and if that results in Anti-English sentement then it's unconected?

366. The Maltese Falcon:

now that sounds like fun (if I hadn't have got drunk seeing Marc Almond last night that is.)

#364

Hi Chorrie. See you managed to hold onto SDC by your usual means.

Like this:

"I don't doubt that a large percentage of Scotish people suport Independence and if it was shown to be the will of the Scotish people I will abide by it - and then leave Scotland on the next train."

Designed to annoy!

367. connaughtboy:

realy?

I thought I was trying to have a debate? I've not been the one engaging in name calling or atempts to silence debate - that's been some of those on the Pro-Independence side of the fence.

314 I think I am probably unusual on this forum in being someone who is actively involved in political campaigning. I have spoken to many thousands of voters over the years and you learn what makes them tick. And there are lots of other people in the SNP - as well as the other parties of course - doing exactly the same thing.

I think that is something that a lot of people who are not involved in politics don't understand. There is actually a whole science to political campaigning.

So it is not just my personal opinion that many supporters of other parties are in favour of independence. My opinion is based on the results of years of voter identification in my own patch and the fact that the results in other constituencies tell the same story.

#274. Tax the poor, there's more of them: REALLY, MY point is that the the UK seats in these debating councils are ignoring Scotland needs and want in favour of England.

I really don't care is theirs a G9 or a G129 form what I understand the G8 debate thing like world poverty agree too do things and 2 years later it's no done.

I'd rather see my country only promise to do what is achievable than side with those push the paper work around and never get around to tackling the problem it's self.

I don't care if an Independent Scotland isn't invient in to any exclusive parties, or is the most popular country in the world.

I just want my country to be governed within, look after the people of Scotland and the people who chose to visit us, during there stay (i.e. insure all roads are safe and accident spots are corrected to reduce morbidity and mortality on Scotland's roads). Be a country that doesn't rush in too wars and a be a nation that would rather promote peace than war.

All countries have a seat at the UN and so would an independent Scotland.
Unless I'm missing something here, in the purpose of the UN.

#372 connaughtboy
Thanks for repeating an annoyance doubled.

#367 Connaughtboy.

More fool you.

#370 elizabeth

I have to tell you that just because I support independence does not mean that I am "blinkered", "unthinking" or "reactionary".

You may pose as a reasonable person but the reason you are getting people's backs up on here is that you think that it is ok to demean others because their beliefs differ from yours.

well connaughtboy i could equilly post things you've said that where slightly off:

Let me hear you defend your rant

I have an opinion and I will express it. Just you concentrate on what you want to say on here and leave others to say what they want. Preferably in an intelligent way.

---I could go on offcorse but I don't wish to continue in this vein.

If you wish to make this a personal fight you can fight with yourself.

#276. Tax the poor, there's more of them: Whats that supose to mean!!!!!!

Are you takin the p^&&!!!!!!!!!

#377 Frank

You may notice that I have not resorted to "name calling" and you display ignorance to equate criticism of Elizabeth with being a fool.

OK Elizabeth, what are your views on independence? Could Scotland survive? Would you honestly leave on the next rain if it happened? If so, why on earth would you?

Serious answers please!

Oh well, not going to slide any further downhill is it...

SNP lapdogs you all smell! God Bless the Queen and the Union! Liz your "bath of spit" remains the funniest post. Boring anti-English, anti-prosperity, anti-anything-but-redheads-talking-about-the-footie-in-the-pub spitemeisters, please take up residence in Alabama. G'night!

#357 elizabeth....transphobic?

Transphobia refers to various kinds of aversions towards transsexuality and transsexual or transgender people, often taking the form of refusal to accept a person's expression of their internal gender identity

#369 AJM.

I think that it would be foolish to have a referendum in the near future because the Unionists still have the "fear factor" in their favour. Alex knows this and is more aware than most. He is concerned about their ability to produce "black" propaganda; that is why he would rather wait till further into this parliament.

Left to get on with the good governance of Scotland he is in a no lose situation.

#305. Tax the poor, there's more of them: That's an important pieces of Scottish History!!! It's important too remember who we got in this mess we're in today.

Just like the day the union ends will be an important day in Scotland history BUT for Now it's in the future BUT getting near to the present.

#380

Sorry Eve, #276 was just patching up the end of #274.

Ta ta

# 357 elizabeth veldon

Feel free to report me for whatever phobic you like - you are the one that has to live with this:-

"You see we get these people posting here that don't actualy LIVe in Scotland."

#317. Mohammed-Sarul Islam: You a wise man.

Miss H is your silence on #369 because you are in fact detailed by your party to put out the party line here. You therefore cannot put your personal point of view.

# 388
I agree regarding it being an important piece of history but I think that this and other pieces of history are given too much significance in the present debate about the future of a modern nation.

353. Miss H:

Thankyou for your reply. Sorry I missed it.

you seem to be talking about gathering of scraps (I appoligise if that sounds offensive - I don't intend it to) by people who want to find a particuler answer.

I'm sure if you understand reserch techniques and statistics you will know that to approch an issue with a hypothinus (sp! I know) to prove you wil lalways prove it.

i don't doubt that there is a large ground swell of suport for Independence but it's degree has to be measured independently not by people with an intrest in the result - weither pro or anti Independence.

383. connaughtboy:

you want serious answers? OK then (I thought I'd given them but there you go.)

Finantaly? Yes it could tick over just fine and if there was some smarts employed in the period of Peak Oil prices before the stocks disapeer completly it could even be wealthy.

Otherwise? No it would become a backwater.

Scotland is a racist, sexist and homophobic country or rather - to be more exact - I've noticed a danm site more of this in Scotland than in England.

Scotland is still in thrall to the Churches and they would gain alot of power if we became independent.

The party that would lead us into this golden dawn suport members who want treatment for Transexuals withdrawn from the NHS, waht to bann Gay adoption and they have took half a million pounds from a confirmed Homophobe.

do I think Independence would work? With a bunch of Hate Mungoreers at the helm of the doomed ship? No.

#382

When you see them next, give them my regards.
Add Bob Guthrie and Tam Teirney and Clare to the list.

SNP lapdogs and Labour poodles.....do the Kennel Club know about these new breeds? Is there a breed standard as yet?

Woof! Have I got the 400...?

#400

I kent we'd get tae 400

Have now! Whammo!

389. AM2:

M? Reture? I like a good fight ;)

369 - no I didn't say people always vote for the winner, I said that amongst floating voters -people who switch their votes between parties - there is a tendency for those voters in particular to back whoever they believe is going to be the winner. Floating voters are not a huge proportion of the electorate but they are important and are targeted by all the parties.

As for the idea that it was a protest vote - no it wasn't and I will tell you why. The SNP did not just win a majority (however small) of MSPs, we won the largest number of councillors in Scotland. People don't vote for their councillor as a protest.

As regards the petition thing - I'll explain what this is about - it was a resolution on the agenda at National Council today so it is not something that has actually come from the leadership, it has come from the branches. My opinion is that the importance of this has been slightly overblown by the Scotsman.

Presenting a petition of 100,000 signatures will not win us a referendum on independence. However when we are iodentifying people who support independecen we might as well get them to sign up to a petition. I think we can get considerably more than 100,000 names for that.

And now - having laid bare the internal machinery of the SNP - I am afraid have to go away and make supper!

Aaaargh so close!

#399 Ttptmot

I got 300 & 400. Only AM2 has done better!

#390. Tax the poor, there's more of them: WHAT in the Most UN-PC way ever.

You didn't have to correct your mistake, I never notice it. Dyslexia effects my writing and my reading slightly (Hence I wouldn't notice many mistakes in posts). I find it offensive that you randomly place the word at the top of your comment. If you are dyslexic too please remember it's better to say Oops I've made a mistake or dyslexic mistake, than just say the word randomly. (It's plain weird)

407. Chairman Gordon,:

I think we can not, at the moment, tell the exact nature of the vote but I'd agree if you said 'there's a possibility that the vote was a protest vote' it defenatly looked like one but then there IS a large move towards independence in Scotland.

Protest vote or not, the SNP now have the chance to convince the voting public that they aren't a fly-by-night party.
So far, they're not doing too bad. They're bound to come up with some harebrained ideas, but don't all politicians?

#396 Elizabeth

Thanks for your opinions. So would you really exit south in the event of independence. After all you assured AM2 in #402 that you like a good fight!

This is quite a statement though:

"Scotland is a racist, sexist and homophobic country or rather - to be more exact - I've noticed a danm site more of this in Scotland than in England."

How would you describe countries like Afghanistan or Zimbabwe? Can you find suitably extreme adjectives?

#407 Chairman Gordon

"a protest vote" - all elections probably have an element of protest vote. But here is the trend in Scotland over the past 8 years:-

1999 SNP 35 Lab 56 LD 17 Con 18 Others 3
2003 SNP 27 Lab 50 LD 17 Con 18 Others 17
2007 SNP 47 Lab 46 LD 16 Con 17 Others 3

That is not a protest vote. Scotland is moving towards independence. A referendum is one more tool that can be used legitimately to get there. If we wait for Westmeenster tae support independence, we'll wait a gey lang time.

411. connaughtboy:

How would you describe countries like Afghanistan or Zimbabwe? Can you find suitably extreme adjectives?

---As nightmares made bleeding flesh.

The link seems a bit tenuious to me. Are you saying I can't say Scotland is one of the most reactionary places I've ever seen because there's worse places? The logic of that one seems...well a bit illogical realy.

Would i leave? I'm already planning to leave Scotland within the year. I'm scared of living in fear. You may think that's an exaguration but i've fled this country before (during the 'keep the clause' campaign) and the way it's heading now I'll be glad to get out again.

People i nkow are now in a position where they have to drive everywhere. If they get out of their car they are atacked either physicaly or verbaly. Well it used to be bad but it wasn't that bad and frankly I blame Flag Waving for it.

Would I return? Possibly - there's much i like about Scotland (and that's not just the record Shops in Glasgow.)

# 408
I apologise for my unwarranted use of the word in such a way as to cause offence. I don't think I'm dyslexic so I probably meant "careless".

I don't hate my country, i love it but i'm in mourning for it.

The Scotland I know and loved has died and I've got more to do with my life than worship a corpse.

Supper still has to cook a bit ...

384 so do I - please do not take me as the official voice of the SNP!!!! - but since it is the internal working of the SNP that is being discussed I thought I would shed some light.

Elizabeth.

You see what you want to see.

You may have seen a lot more nasty things in Scotland than England but that is just because you have been looking for them.

You make all manner of assumptions based on nothing but your own prejudices -for example that Scotland is dominated by churches. What a load of cobblers.

The 2001 census found that Scottish people are by far the least likely to identify themselves as belonging to any particular religion of all the people in the UK. If you actually bothered to do any research yourself before making patronising remarks to other people you might not say such silly things.

You do not contribute anything to the debate simply by airing your own unfounded personal prejudices.

#403 Miss H thanks for that, it does confirm my thoughts that AS did not want this and if you are right he is going to try and kick into the long grass.

I only said something of a protest vote because there was an element of UK politics in terms of the Iraq war involved.

My view as we can see on here that grass root separatists believe that they only have one chance and they are very impatient. The politicians know that they would not win at the moment so have get a momentum going. We will see more impatience from the grass roots as time goes on.

I look forward to the imminent post from AM(2) regarding the forthcoming anti Salmondista story in SoS..

So far, 30 votes in Holyrood,,and the SNP is winning 30-0.

#396 Elizabeth.

You obviously have a very particular agenda.

Why have you singled out the SNP. Are you not aware of Dennis Goldie, the NuLab candidate for Falkirk W., or the Tory Party's past track record. The LibDems, as they have proved, will vote without conscience for anything that they believe will gain them votes.

I would ask you to research SNP policy agreed at Conference and National Council and compare them with the other Parties. I believe that you will be pleasantly suprised.

324. Chairman Gordon,

"where are the SNP going to find 100,000 of their own supporters able to write their own names?"

Em, Mlenathois, fro oen.

#361 elizabeth veldon

"slightly off topic"? Are ye fiicken serious "slightly off topic".

371

Frank, easy to gain control of Stirling if your (SNP) opponents are sleeping. Alex is far from happy with his mob.

416. Miss H:

I quotes, the last time I engaged in debate here I refered to Beyond Barriers 'First Out' survey that found that three quarters of respondents had sufferd verbal or physical abuse because of their sexuality or preceved sexuality.

My own view? No, rather one suported by reserch.

421. Jim P:

And I've not said anything since then?

Should have happened 30 years ago.

Don't forget that there are many passionate Scots having to live in exile to stay in work.

I vote YES YES YES

l417 you are half right. We would not win an independence referendum tomorrow but we could in the next few years.

But you are wrong when you say the 'grass roots separatists' don't want to wait. The grassroots SNP activists will go with the plan because they know what the situation is on the ground.

#415. elizabeth veldon: What area do / did you live that was so blessed before the SNP took over in Holyrood and the Scottish Executive.

I'm guessing it wasn't the East End of Glasgow, Dundee, North Lanarkshire or any other area with deprived areas.

I'm not saying that the SNP are going to improve this, over night BUT it does appear that they are taking the 1st step forward to improve life for everyone in Scotland. (There is many steps left too take though)

The SNP to me come across as if they are working toward long term gains and not the usual unionist Short term gains. This can only be a positive thing.

Why so sad, are you really going to miss the dependency culture?

Nothing stays the same forever.

#426 Miss H

I agree that an independent Scotland can be brought about over a period of years. At least we can see it now as a possibility given the trend of the past 8 years:-

1999 SNP 35 Lab 56 LD 17 Con 18 Others 3
2003 SNP 27 Lab 50 LD 17 Con 18 Others 17
2007 SNP 47 Lab 46 LD 16 Con 17 Others 3

The growing move by the people of England for their own voice will be a factor, but we in Scotland have to use all legitimate democratic ways to move towards our goal. I believe that the younger generations will have a greater demand for independence than my generation. A referendum will be one way of taking the pulse of the country.

Didnt that other " Nationlist" AH do something simular he first came to power in Germany ?
seems AS is starting to show his true colours ...I wander when he will expect us all to salute him ??

Everyone I know voted for the SNP, We did not, and will not, vote for independence.

We all voted to get Labour out, so far the SNP seem to be doing well, but it is very early days yet and I doubt if they will convince any of us to vote for independence.

Did our forefathers not fight tooth and nail, losing countless thousands of lives in wars to save Britain, Why are so many people now so hell bent on destroying it.

Being British does'nt make us any less Scottish.

Born in Scotland...Proud to be British!!

#430 boudica

Surely, sir, you mean "Socialist"

#324. Chairman Gordon: Most people can write their own name. It's one of the first words you get taught at school. I could spell my own name, even when the only other words I could spell where: "The", "And", "Was", "Saw" "Me", "I" and not many more.

Really I don't no what your suggesting.

And for your information the SNP is about twice the size it was when I was a wee girl, so they shouldn't have much bother their. Most have family, who are frequently not members BUT also believe in Scottish Independence.

430?

Do what?

338. elizabeth veldon / 7:41pm 23 Jun 2007

"335. frank mcbride;
I apoligise for getting a little het up. I get a little passionate sometimes."

I demand to know more!

430 boudica - way over the top.

431 RTL - good post but the trouble is that, in the eyes of SNP supporters, there is no such thing as British. There's only Scottish and English, and they don't like the English.

432 Jim P - way over the top.

Hurrah! I've just won the lottery! All mine!

Oh.....wait a minute...I've had that lottery dream again. Don't you just hate it when that happens?
Oh well. You lose some & you lose some.

#437

Thanks, Walter

#436

According to R.L.S.

“There is nothing perhaps more puzzling…than the great gulf that is set between England and Scotland….Here are two people almost identical in blood…the same in language and religion ; and yet a few years of quarrelsome isolation…in comparison with the great historical cycles – have so separated their thoughts and ways, that not unions nor mutual dangers, nor steamers nor railways, nor all the king’s horses and all the king’s men seem able to obliterate the broad distinction.”

360. frank mcbride, lusitania / 8:06pm
Chairman Gordon.

"Thank god I don't live in Stirling any more. I'd hate to come across you in "The Red Lion".

Oh...matron!

#431. RTL: Speak for you self. How do you now what everyone around you voted and how they would vote in such a referendum?

Most people I meet I don't tend to bring politics in the conversation unless some tells me their no voting or aren't register to do so.

I'm most cretenly no Birittish and will never consider my self to be anything other than Scottish. I feel, I have closer bond with being European than this Birittish nonices.

P.S. Excuse the spelling spellchecks broken again. (Another one bites the dust)

#436 Walter Ego

Interestingly, Westminster acknowledges "Scottish" as a nationality with regard to the armed forces. See the Hansard report below, from which I quote:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199900/cmhansr...

Mr. Spellar [pursuant to his reply, 15 March 2000, c.202W]: I regret that, owing to a clerical error, the figure provided for Army personnel of Scottish nationality was incorrect. The correct figure for Army personnel of Scottish nationality should have been 13,121.

#422 Walter.

Those bloody Tories again!!!! It's a Unionist conspiracy!

430. boudica

Bright as a blackout.

#431

Our fathers and forefathers were fighting for freedom and democracy.

#438 Melanthios

That's for Elizabeth and myself to know and the rest of you to ponder on. Please do not be so intrusive.

The Unionist arguments that Scotland couldn't afford independence, is too racist to become independent etc are too childish to worry about any more and have been exploded so many times in the past, it really isn't worth being distracted by them. In reality there isn't much of a case for continuing political union in the UK when you argue for Scotland and England to work together as two sovereign independent countries.

However on some other points.

#39 You may not believe my assertion that there is an increasing element of nationalism in England. It goes far further than "just a few nutters", and I firmly believe it will be the potent force behind any constitutional upheaval in the future.

The idea that Scotland somehow benefits from having a "UN Security Council seat" a "big say in world affairs" is complete and utter twaddle. Indeed, it is very naive indeed to think the UK actually wields much influence in this regard. What is much more important is having a voice, in this increasingly integrated global community - not its force of projection, unless the country is either a superpower or some kind of wayward trigger happy communist behemoth. Indeed, in terms of Foreign Affairs there is nothing stopping Scotland working with those of the rest of the UK. There is nothing stopping the Department of Foreign Affairs in Edinburgh, working with its counterpart in London in areas of mutual advantage. Indeed such a Scottish contribution would have much more of an effect than now.

If we asked people in Scotland if they would prefer Scotland to "control its finances" (ie Government expenditure and taxation) an overwhelming majority would say "Yes" and quite enthusiastically too. But in reality, in a unitary state, such a departure from current circumstances is "independence without the trimmings". What would the trimmings be? Foreign Affairs (detailed before) Defence - a clear departure

#445 frank mcbride

"Our fathers and forefathers were fighting for freedom and democracy"

Oh yes, frank. And we brought freedom and democracy to whom precisely? The USA (I think they took it), India (I think they took it), Ireland (I think...).

#449 You may actually have a point.

But in no way is it an argument for a continuing political union between England and Scotland

#449 AM2

Dinnae ast me pal, eh dinnae ken!

#445 frank mcbride: Whats "freedom and democracy?
I don't think I've really witnessed it yet 1st hand, until the SNP where elected by 1 seat (It was like a wee miracle).

I hope that this years events will pave way for democracy to work! AND it won't be seen as a miracle that Scotland gets what Scotland Needs and Wants. It will be what the majority have worked for and finally delivered.

Still waiting to feel Freedom, Hopefully that days just around the corner.

P.S. Spellchecker has came back from the dead, long live my spell checker may it not give me the wrong words.

#300, #400

Will someone look after #500 for me. Eh'm aff tae ma scratcher.

#447. Grant: Who is Andrew Marr?

#38 The Maltese Falcon

"""You are right. If a UK referendum was held to determine independence for Scotland there would be a huge margin in favour but I gaurantee that percentage wise a greater number of English would vote in favour than would Scottish. Majority of Scots know which side their bread is buttered and the thought of pulling out of the Union fills them with dread. It is only wee eck and the rest of the romantic fools who support the SNP and thus independence who think differently."""

I don't really see how. It doesn't conflict with what I want - which is Scotland politically and economically independent of the UK. If extending the franchise to other UK citizens makes Scottish independence more than guaranteed, then I get to see what I want and others who support Scottish independence too. Which Alex Salmond also wants, and the SNP, too. In fact, it really undermines your own Unionist ramblings - doesn't it?

The only people who are filled with dread at the prospect of pulling out of the Union are the trolls that post here.

#449. AM2: Your post seem a wee bit out of place!

What is that got to do with anything other than people travel!

Wow, I've been to England and other countries too!

#455

Andrew Marr (you'll know him when you see him):

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39530000/jpg/_39530...

#448, JP

I was replying to RTL #431.

You will never hear me defend Britain's Imperial policy.

Apology ;-)

#456. Bob10: Looking for public support and what they want, is the backdoor.
If so:

Lets hope the Back door remains open, then we'll truly have a great parlement which serves the public well.

Bob please don't go telling me their no there to sever the public. If no who? Westminster, I would hope not!

#453, Eve.

I have to agree with you to a degree but, if the Nazis had won I'd have been disappeared by now.

423 In post 396 you made a sweeping statement about the SNP which was demonstrably false.

'The SNP supports members who want treatment withdrawn from transsexuals’ – false. The evidence you cited in favour of this was a quote from Shona Robison querying the allocation of resources and the prioritisation of treatment in one particular case. At no point has Shona Robison or anybody else in the SNP said that treatment should be withdrawn from transsexuals.

You then go on to say that the SNP wants to ban gay adoption. False. The SNP supported the modernization of adoption legislation. You earlier tried to justify this lie because Roseanna Cunningham tabled an amendment to the legislation. Yes she did and she had every right to express her personal opinion – an opinion which was shared by a minority of MSPs of all the major parties but did not reflect SNP policy. (Perhaps you think that MSPs should not be allowed to express personal opinions but that would be a bit too Stalinist for most people).

However, as I earlier pointed out (and you have ignored) having set out her position, Roseanna did not vote against the legislation - she accepted the will of the parliament – although individual members of the Labour, Tory and Lib Dem parties did vote against it. So why do you single out the SNP for criticism, the only major party in which no MSPs voted against that legislation? The reason is because you are prejudiced against them.

You then go on to say that the SNP took half a million pounds from a known homophobe – by which I assume you mean Brian Souter. Yes the party did accept a donation from Brian Souter. But you are clearly attempting to make a linkage there which does not exist. Brian Souter gave that money to the SNP knowing that the SNP had voted to repeal Section 2 a – in line with long standing SNP party policy – and knowing that the SNP manifesto contained a number of specific measures to support the LGBT community includi

#38 The Maltese Falcon: I personally Hate Butter! (If the Buttercups tell you other wise their ling)
I also dislike Margarine and most other spreads. I prefer my bread dry, the taste of bread is so often spoilt by butter et al.

Any way if your worried about having no butter, I've got a recipe some where (I hated the taste and texture of it as it was butter), that you can have on independence, nae bother.

#460. Grant: Na, don't no!
Here's a guess:
Is he a Tory? (He looks like he could be, very unfortunate if he's no)

I think that holding the Holyrood and council elections together will have resulted in some of the protest vote being carried over into the council result.

I would like to add that #370 elizabeth veldon

Good post. You're absolutely right, of course.

Some people around here appear to believe that speech which contradicts their independence message is de facto offensive, bigoted, antagonistic, abusive etc. You are therefore to be shouted down and if necessary subjected to personal abuse - until you learn not to repeat your "offence".

I hope you're made of stronger stuff. I'm sure you are.

Elizabeth Veldon - some people might even try to have you deleted for the most spurious reasons, simply because they disagree with you. They are sad, spiteful people that come on these forums every day, and just spout the same rubbish.

PS I wil be here at 1am and again tomorrow, all day, and the same every day this month and next.

#463. frank mcbride: I don't have a clue what your on about. I was unaware that I had mentioned any wars in any of my postings.

I don't really know much about the WW1 or 2 or any other wars, so I wouldn't comment on them (We never look at that history in School). I know a wee bit about more on this daft war against terrorism than any other war before.

#467. Bob10: I'd trust the SNP over the unionist any day.

Those who want to keep the union are more prone to be corubled by the amount of power the UK has to offer them. A full Scottish parlement would offer more to the people of Scotland and there would less chance of curuption through power.

P.S. Spellcheckers desided to die again, Sorry.

#464 Miss H

Good post. Facts are so much more convincing than spin! You are right, there is a deliberate campaign to unfairly single out the SNP.

Change of tack

Some of the opinions about Scotland/UK foreign policy surprised me a bit.

So do most people assume that an independent Scotland would have a non-interventionist, Somebody Else's Problem attitude to world affairs? Beyond opposition to the war in Iraq have the SNP stated any policy about this? Would we again send troops to, say, Kosovo, or First Gulf War, under a UN mandate?

Just wond