Please - not Wendy Alexander!!

Nooooooooooooooo!!!

Excellent... If Hot Lips gets it the SNP majority at the next election will be huge..

He's going .... Yeeeeeeeeeessssssssss!!

Wendy Wind-up?? Even better!!! She's as big a numpty as Joke McDonnell! Watch New Labour ranks thin even further with her in charge!!!

As a lifelong SNP supporter I still felt Jack Mc Connell had an interest in Scottish affairs. In another lifetime he might have been a Scottish hero.

No matter who takes over the neocon inspired Labour Party in Scotland one thing is for sure, the Joke shall be replaced by a total bam subservient to the whims and wishes of Gordon 'Trident' Brown.

Article cut'n'paste from the Sunday Mail?

Welcome Wendy - Alex will be mopping the floor with you soon enough!

There are some things in life you just couldn't make up. This seems to be one of them. A peerage for Jack McConnell? From Blair?
I'm going to behave myself and not say any more.
One last thing though.....talk about oxymorons ......"Labour think tank"

LOL!

#8,

Will the BBC will be reinstating RDF Media then...

Or is Paxoman going to pinch our Jack and Victors spot???

C'mon BBC.

Lord McConnell of Goat Fell replaced by Majorette Alexander............the Scottish Labour supporters must be so proud of the towering intellectual heights reached by such Westminster aparatchiks.

The sunday mail describe wee wendy as "the sharpest brain in the labour party"

11 Dr Who, Yeah labour try to do right to their own, its only ordinary people that get humped by them, but at least wee joke will be the last one to get kicked up to the lords.
After next general election Scotland will be free and we can sit back and watch these labour rats scurrying a owr wi nae place to go.

Nobody actually gets a salary for the House of Lords let alone one of £130,000 - but hey, don't let little things like facts get in your way.

What they DO get is an attendance allowance and in order to qualify for that you have to actually attend. Unlike say, Alex Salmond who gets his full £60,000 a year Commons salary PLUS around another £160,000 in expenses for doing nothing.

They're probably lining up a fatcat sinecure at Brussels for Mr Jack.

#11. Dr Who

Way back in the good old "It's Scotland's Oil" days of the 70's my friendly neighbourhood union(in more ways than one) rep and labour party stalwart, used to scare the old timers who were swithering about voting SNP.

With the "who will pay your pension?" nightmare!

Certainly not "The English"(sic) after you've slapped them in the face by going independent.

And the Scottish Government can't either because all your contributions have been sent to London and they'll keep it.

There isn't as much money in the North Sea as the SNP claim.

Although I rubbished his claims at the time, in the case of McConnell and his predecessor, I hope he was right.

It would suit my notion of justice and the English perception of our national stereotype, if they had a couple of penniless old threadbare jaikey's to put in front of the Newsnight cameras when Scotland was being discussed saying stuff like "See me? I used to be First Minister, me." and "Ah've met the Queen, me. Shook her hawn an everythin"!

Here we go again. Another pollie with no experience of the real world, someone who has done nothing but be a politician or one of their flunkies who thinks they can run the country. Why on earth do these people think they know what's better for us than we do? Could we please have some leaders with a real world breadth of experience rather than a bunch of power hungry interferers who are in it for themselves and not for the country.

INTER-nationalist

You may not be aware of this, but there is a World of many Nations, beyond that U.K. region that has boundaries you believe to be ordained by the Almighty who has charged you with their defence.

please remember its all about self-determination, standing up within the world as a proud welcoming nation

17-19 Col Blimp 111,

welcome back Col. been on holiday.

#21. pehman

Just got back a couple of hours ago, thought I would check in to see what I had missed.

I bought Daily Express when I was away, 2 euro's down the pan, the closest thing to news was the revelation of a feindish plot to make Camilla an acceptable candidate for Queen.

And here was me thinking that the whole point of a monarchy was that you didn't get a choice.

22 Col Blimp 111,

I glanced through the on line edition earlier, can't remember a thing that was in it.

Only in politics can abject failure be rewarded. Makes me want to throw up!

13 - Pehman,

Talk about damned wi' faint praise...I'm chuckling Alex-style over my cornflakes this morning, I don't mind telling you!

How fitting that Jack McConnell may be reunited in Lordship with his former colleague Lord Mike Watson.

This really stinks.

26 Gill, Aye but thats as much as he's entitled to.
Doh ! did I mention title

28 Ubi,
Aye an fooks ana. That'll be how many o them on how many wage packets

Good lord. Scottish Labour seem intent on self destruction. Jack was a moron but Wendy is awful. We need statesmen (and stateswomen) not glorified Glasgow councillors.

I'm not an SNP fan but at least Salmond's got the right qualities to be a good statesman; something Scotland and Scottish Labour have lacked since devolution.

How about Lord McConnell of Goatfell...my , how that goat fell ; along with the pathetic tabloid press -in the the run-up to May 3rd! But now to the less trivial. There are more pressing issues today such as the construction of a new Wendy House for Mss Alexander and her over-eager , overreaching , overbearing brother, Douglas. Beware of the peril of the Alexander dynasty. On second thought , why brother at all ?

Lord Watson can light his Malawian cigars.

Appearance money in the Lords - same old - has been appearing for years at Holyrood.

"Inter-nationalist" is just another meaningles word hijacked and perverted by British Nationalist spinsters.

Lord McDonald of Pin Stripe, sounds good.

As long as he keeps away from Scotland he can do what he wants..

Margaret Curran is a politically correct airhead and non achiever, single issue - women - ideal to lead the Labour Party! Ms Alexander ( married with two weans ) is also too obsessed with policitcal correctness, put Clause 2b reform, ahead of a whole host of priorities just as the arsonist Lord Watson put foxes ahead of health, housing, crime ,education etc. Andy Kerr is just a clerk- took offenceat ALex Salmond's speech - the wee soul !

As for Jack he was useless, constantly in denial, did not confront issues eg Shirley McKie and when he did get round to it it was too late and even then he lied ( the "honest mistake" quote ). Just shows the lack of calibre in Labour- I just hope whoever takes over bans hyenas - Bill Butler, Margaret Curran and PAuline MCNeill ( real name Cahill ) sppeeches at the MAy elections were embarrasing

Poor wee Joke ,he is being made scapegoat for the screw up by London Labour
in the Scottish election.
The control freak in No.10 wants his own mouthpiece in Scotland ,and what a mouthpiece we are going to get.
one almost feels sorry for the Labour supporters,but not quite ,another easy peasy for Alex to swat away.

You're all a bit mad on here aren't you!

Goodbye Jack, don’t let the door hit you on the arse on the way out.

I’m sure life as one of the “Three Amigos” in the House of Purchased Peerages, will allow you to find your true level as champion of the alternative fashion scene, and pursuing the evil represented by your party’s historic neglect of our town centres.

What an intriguing choice of leadership awaits the hapless remaining labourites.
Seemingly the front-runner is the “oh so clever” Wendy, of Giant Caterpillar fame.
Closely followed by wan Kerr by name, who’s main contribution to the body politic was to sit on his hands during the Opening of Parliament speech by the FM, and thinking that anyone cared.

Will the last labourite please put the lights out as they leave their Holyrood offices for the last time?

Jack as peacebroker in Afghanistan?

#41. I was just thinking that!!! :)

Most of you head bangers truly are thick as mince. Disagree with Jack's politics if you want (although we'll see how well Mr Minority Government, it's all everyone else's fault we failed to deliver, stacks up in a wee while) but we all have much to admire and respect in Jack's contribution to Scottish politics before and after devolution. If he leaves after 8 years in government he leaves, justifiably, with his head held high. Grow up you miserable, bile driven buffoons.

#44 Dougie - at least you havent lost your sense of humour, if you seem a little 'out of touch'. Tell me youre kidding please?

------>NUMPTY missing you already!

44: DougieDownUnder: You've been smoking those Jacqui Smith cigarettes again, haven't you? By no objective standard of judgement could McConnell be said to have done anything to earn our respect. He has never, not once, stood up for Scottish interests when they didn't coincide with the interests of UK Labour or England. He has been a UK Labour placeman whose only attempt to differentiate himself from his fellow unionists was to support Trinidad at the World Cup.

A trivial man, and the fact that he was leader says it all. Wendy Alexander as successor? Alex Salmond will be voting for her in the leadership election, that's for sure!

#44
You should remind us ungrateful wretches of all of Wee Jack's superb achievements in charge of Scotland. You, being safe in Sydney are of course best placed to have experienced his glorious rule, and will be well up to date on his enduring legacy.
As for Wendy-pops, I am sick of all of this "great mind" chat. It is simply lazy journalism. The fact that she comes armed with MBA's and a great big ego does not, in itself, imply intellectual superiority. To read some of this journo claptrap, you'd honestly think this dame was Stephen Hawking. If she is so smart, how come she never told her brother that those ballot papers were drivel?

Well done jack you will me missed by many labour supporters. The morons who are slagging of the ex first minister just show what their true opinion are towards the Great offices of state in Scotland.

I voted labour will vote labour untill the day i die and will see the labour party leading the true people of Scotland. Not this rag tag band of destroyers of a Nation presently,and only presently in minority government.

Led by a donkey who is followed by asses leading them to a never,never land based on Fantasy politics(Norway in the sky)

On a different topic, why is commenting denied on the article about that ridiculous article about some academic in Bradford claiming Alex Salmond has given a boost to terrorism by his exemplary reaction to the airport incident?

50: The wacky baccy is obviously more widespread than we thought.

14, Do you ever sleep? what do you mean by "scotland will be free" was up in glasgow back in march, didn't see any troops on the streets,or curfews being imposed;scotland is as free as any other part of the uk!

Alastair the First /

we are still here and still voting, drugs typical SNP slur

Do not underestimate Ms Alexander - a far shrewder operator than Mr McConnell.

14

pehman, how will Scotland be free after the 2008 General Election when Labour will be returned with a bigger majority than they have now?

Some of you truly are tragic, pathetic human beings capable of sinking to the worst levels of kailyard-like, self-righteous onanism. Oh and yes James in Dundee I did, of course, forget the first rule of the Diaspora: rich and knighted by the English Queen? Oooh Sir Sean ... feel your finger on our pulse. Anyone else? Loony cave dwelling heretic. Save us all from such toy town sophistry.

Wendy fishface as their leader- fantastic. That has cheered me up on this monday morning. Am off to smile all day. Just imagine, the hungry caterpiller every week at FMQs.......chortle

“His wish for a prestigious appointment to combine with continuing as an MSP”
Who does he think he is? His WISH! O and good ol Nu-Labour will grant his wish no doubt. It has been evident for many many years now that Socialism is dead in Scotland, replaced by greed, position and favour.

58

AM2, I agree with you. A very perceptive article by Professor Gallagher.

Ta Ta Jack
You certainly will not be missed!
Jack has been the most inafectual First Minister, one that was easily ignored , that did NOTHING for Scotland, underplayed Scotlands potential. All he could do was do what he was told to do by Nr 10
Were are likely to have Wendy ' the Gob' Alexander as the new leader of the Labour group in parliament. She isnt any better as she likes the sound of her own unfortunate voice and thinks by trying to talk down people that she is somehow right.
Doesnt really say much about the talent in the Labour party, more lik the lack of it!

Wee Wendy Motormouth as leader!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What a disaster for Labour.

67

Scottish and proud, there is no place in a modern democracy for the monarchy and I am shocked by the number of nationalists who think that there is.

' It is thought that Mr McConnell is in line to receive a peerage in Tony Blair's resignation honours list and that the seat in the Lords would satisfy his wish for a prestigious appointment to combine with continuing as an MSP'
This has to be a joke!
First we already have one idiot Lord as part time MSP, now they want to give McConnell a peerage, for doing what exactly???? being Blairs lapdog?
This is just pure farce and says a lot about how Labour in London feel about Holyrood, Westmonster does not permit an MP to also be a Lord, any Lord who wants to be an MP, has to relinquish his/her peerage (Tony Ben example). So why do we in Scotland have to be treated as some toy town effort, with Lords retaining there peerage while sitting as an MSP???

#56

I to thought this at one time,however,after seeing her recent perfomances during the election she just comes across as aggressive, empty and blustering ...although slightly more endearing than her creepy wee brother who I suspect is actually a robot ..have you ever heard him umm, err or ahhh when he talks ...weird !

70

And do not underestimate him.

#68 I think it is more to do with concentrating on achieving independence rather than distracting from the core aim by getting involved in a discussion about the monarchy.

72/73

If we want Scotland to be a modern democracy, we should have no truck with the monarchy. Do you agree?

#75 yes

Some people here really are bitter and twisted.

I am sure that there are SNP supporters out there (unlike the majority who have appeared so far) who recognise that McConnell did achieve some progress.

Some of you are as bad as those Labour Party members who think that everything that Alex Salmond does is Satan's work.

Quite frankly voters are p***ed off with yah-boo politics - is it any wonder that many don't vote?

#68 TMWK Perth, I'm on the record as being a Republican, however if people wish to hold onto a few baubles, and my views do not prevail, post independence, then I'm comfortable with the democratic choice of the people.

But hey, you know that anyway!

When is Alex Salmond going to call a By Election in Banff and Buchan ?, so that his constituents can be properly represented in the House of Commons .
What is he afraid of?

77

Alan B, thank you.

79

James, good morning and thank you. Your republican credentials are not in doubt. Let us leave the monarchy to the English - and quickly.

82

Scottish and proud, I detect a degree of reluctance on your part. I assume that you are a monarchist at heart.

Newsnight and the apology for perhaps misleading the viewers is inadequate.The programme was UK wide and there should be a UK wide apology on the website.
Newsnight did not just 'mislead',it lied!!!!
I'm fed up with political correctness. Could we have a bit of spade,shovel,shovel spade please.

They LIED!!!!!

Off topic I know, but has anybody noticed that the 'anglicisation of the indigineous population though the broadcast media' dial has been turned up to the limit by 'those in control' lately? I think I will be talking with an East Enders accent soon.

Will the press corp be issued with brollies, once Roy Hattersley's wee sister starts 'spouting' her nonsense?!!!

Come back Henry McLeish, all is forgiven (again).

sorry - spelling - meant 'indigenous'

Bye Joke ...

Your epitaph shall always be that you brought dishonesty, inefficiency, bolstered rights for criminals and a bloated government to the people of Scotland.

All in all better than most Labour terms.

Wendy, Scotland welcomes you and your party as an example to decent folk of how not to run things by cheating, lieing, self interest, greed, nepatism, corruption and the creation of a nanny state.

Labour's rat/pig cohorts are a beacon to the decent folks in Scotland demonstrating the contrast of extreme mediocraty that exists in polical time of extreme mediocraty.

86

art1000, any old iron?

#78 Not A Unionist or Nationalist - be thankful that these postings don't reflect either the feelings of the bodypolitic, or even the feelings of most party members or supporters of any hue. Instead its the views of real party hacks, mischief-makers, and cranks with too much time on their hands. You are p1ssing in the wind if you think that sensible, non-partisan comments are going to be given any regard in this forum!

90

Voldemort, a serious question: when did you last vote Conservative? And tell the truth, please. Thank you.

Because I feel so strongly for Scottish independance I could never vote for any unionist party but i have to say I do think Jack is a good guy at heart. I think he had Scotlands interests in mind but didnt have the competence or strength to stand up to Westminster when this was needed. There are a lot of fanatics out there who will wave the union jack till hell freezes over, i dont think Jack was one of them. Scottish Labour have loads of politicians and supporters who could contribute a lot to the country but are stuck in a rut and havent yet realised that the union is a dodo and sooner or later it's going to be dead.

93

Well spotted, The Man. Will he tell the truth, though? Very few of them (ie ex Tory SNP voters) do.

#86 My accent would be more Dick van Dyke than Phil Mitchell!

#44 Dougie

You must be talking about a different Jack McConnell. The one we know is a talentless buffoon!

#82, good comment. I agree, I am not a big fan of the monarchy but more indifferent to them than anything. If a continuing monarchy is what it takes to get some sections of Scottish society on board for independence then I can live with that. An independent Scotland could make a decision on a monarchy according to the wishes of the people at a later date. Gradualism, we already had law, education and state church amongst other things from the act of union, Devolution has allowed us to establish the needed government structure and control of most of the other major areas of public life. I don't think people realise just how small a step it is to independence from here.

#45 Alasdair. I noticed that too. I haven't read all posts yet, but I think that what Newsnight did was far worse that they admit. To me it was an attempt by the BBC to influence the outcome of the elections through lies. I have complained in the strongest rems to the BBC and hope everyone who is interested in Scottish politics will do the same, irrespective of their party loyalties.

97/99

Scottish etc, thank you. As for these forums, they always go off topic and rightly so.

#50 deadeye

Couldn't disagree with you more.

Incidently, you are mis-using the word "presently".

Hope this helps.

#72 Scottish and proud
Let me see union of the crowns 1603
now whats your point??

#54 Mona

I suspect this thread is too intellectual for you.

Tommykaye/UK at 1:17 today.

You're a bit off subject on this thread but non the less it is of importance. Have you seen this tucked away in the opinion section of the Herald.

Switching of Scotland's window on the world by Ian MacWhirter.

http://www.theherald.co.uk/features/featuresopinion/displ...
.
Of somewhat more importance to the future wellbeing of Scotland than a mediocre has been's future aspersions.Don't you think?
.

o.k, maybe just maybe, the queen does not wish to be "queen of scots", as she's not one for sticking around if she's not wanted,think the story would have been differant if diana was still alive!

McConnell has been an asset to Scottish politics.

Lets hope Salmond has learned something from him.

Well done Jack, you did Scotland proud

#63 scottish

Think positively. Think how enjoyable it was seeing Salmond destroying McConnell every week at FMQs. It will be even better watching wee Wendy being ridiculed every week.

Wee Wendy will take 'slavering' to a new level!!!

#72 Scottish and proud
'You presumed to correct me on the date of the Union of the Crowns. I suggest you go and read a history book before 'correcting' people in future'
Actually I dont recall the thread, but if you had said that the union of crowns was 1603, then I certainnly would not have tried to correct you

Hmmm.There apeares to be a problen with communcations at the Herald,aye there is.Worth nipping over though to check out that article. Mr MacWhirter is spot on with this article.

Lord McConnell of Arran. Sounds ok to me. Bye Jack!

Privilage and patronage by Westminster is alive and well! Hope you enjoy the Lords Jacko, it's a bit of a holiday camp I believe. You will lap it up!

#50 deadeye

Here Here. Coming from the west coast I completely agree with you! My family has always voted Labour and it is for that reason that I will always vote Labour until the day I die; even if the they keep selecting monkeys to stand at elections. Like you I am completely blind to all other options.
After all it is the last 50 years of Labour Councillors that have made the West Coast the economic powerhouse it is today, free from all social problems that we see plaguing the S.E. of our mighty Isle!

106, Think you all take yourselves too seriously,it was a bit of banter,for the love of god, lighten up.

#75 TMWK

I am a nationalist through and through, however I think that if Scotland is to sell itself effectively globally, then we need to use all things to our best advantage. In term of tourism alone the "royal" connection is well worth keeping.

#109 Media 1, cape town
Joke right?
Or has the pharmaceuticals not kicked in yet?
Can you actually state how much McConnell ( a teacher by profession) has done so much for Scotland and how Alex Salmond (an economist by profession) can learn from him
The fact is Alex Salmond has done more to push Scotland and give a higher profile in the first 100 days than McConnell did in all the 5 years he was FM

#94 A good guy would never have hung Shirley McKie out to dry the way he did!

cant say that I will miss him,he would not have got the job if Donald Dewar had not died,that is why he is called LUCKY JACK.

Morning all

Been away in hospital for a while, funnily enough I survived......what a disgrace the NHS in Scotland is, spent a couple of weeks in what I thought was the dirtiest hospital this side of West Africa SGH in Glasgow......only to be transferred for the remainder of my convalescence to the Western in Edinburgh.......good God! the place was like a midden!! laundry, rubbish, medical waste all lying around for days outside my ward....

My son eventually convinced me to discharge myself and repair myself at home......it was good advice.....!!!!

So what where you all saying about Jack's legacy?

The Labour Party should hang its head in shame for what it has done to the NHS in Scotland the blame cannot be deflected it lies squarely at their door....deny it!!!!!

My thoughts exactly #61 & #74 what does AM2 have to say about the BBC and Paxman lying....dont hold your breath....!!!!

I think I'm missing something about Jack McConnell's greatness.

However, I'm open-minded enough to be persuaded.

Could someone please give us a list of Mr McConnell's 10 greatest acheivments while in office as First Minister?

I am quite fond of wee Jack.I always thought he was a nationalist in disguise.
Getting my earplugs ready just in case Margaret Curran gets the job!!

Jack McConnell's main achievements came from implementing three of the LibDems manifesto commitments.
The Scottish Labour group of MSPs is bereft of talent and will remain that way as long as they are the second string to MPs.

The only way for Scotland to experience fully the international political climate is to rid ourselves of the 'North British' region status imposed on us by London and stand free for better or worse, I trully believe we have to try and in my heart believe that we could succeed and then some. We are isolated only because London wants us to be and dont think for a minute that if they could sweep Scotland out of existence and populate our land with English settlers then they would, oh wait there are half a million of them already!!!!!!

--------->Exit

93 - 95 ...

Are you hoping to mask the loathing of Labour with a Tory jibe? ... folk have heard it all before from sour grapes Labour sorts.

A vote for the Tories in Scotland is pretty much a wasted vote these days but that may change one day when they get their act together - just like Labours stranglehold on Scottish politics was washed away in May - very much for the better.

Yup, I usually vote Tory simply because the Lib Dems are a joke and just another name for Labour, Labour is just a disgusting party and poisoned to the core with exactly the people who should never have any power whatsoever(!), but right now I am pretty impressed by the SNP - maybe these guys are the ones to sort Scotland out after years of Labour mismanagement and corruption.

So there you go ... still bye Joke McC may many more Labour Cronies follow your lead and resign.

good riddence to bad rubbish

#124, I am not aware of the previous discussion but perhaps the poster was referring to the fact that there were two Kings in 1689 in the sense that King James was still alive when King William had been selected by Westminster in his place.

Picture caption: 'Insert brain'.

How Jack has suffered at the hands of the Hootsman sub-editors!

For her sake, let's hope Wendy Alexander has her answers ready, so she can explain to the good people of England what exactly THEIR "union dividend" is.

O Flower of Scotland,
When will we see
Your like again,
That fought and died for,
Your wee bit Hill and Glen,
And stood against him,
Proud Edward's Army,
And sent him homeward,
Tae think again.

The Hills are bare now,
And Autumn leaves
lie thick and still,
O'er land that is lost now,
Which those so dearly held,
That stood against him,
Proud Edward's Army,
And sent him homeward,
Tae think again.

Those days are past now,
And in the past
they must remain,
But we can still rise now,
And be the nation again,
That stood against him,
Proud Edward's Army,
And sent him homeward,
Tae think again.

O Flower of Scotland,
When will we see
your like again,
That fought and died for,
Your wee bit Hill and Glen,
And stood against him,
Proud Edward's Army,
And sent him homeward,
Tae think again.

#135 ZOOM:

Unlike you, I am passionate about Scotland and her place within the union. I do not sing flower of Scotland, it is defeatest and sad. I would rather have a song celebrating Scotland as opposed to one that concentrates on the SNP's favourite past time..(England)

Scotland is NOT a political irrelevance, she never has been and never will be. You just think she is, hence your never ending failure in life. You want the worst for Scotland, and you will stop at nothing to achieve it..

Well guess what? The rest of us Scots who are passionate about our country wont let you destroy her. Its nearly lunch time over there, have you not got an Argentina top to go and purchase?

Surely Alex Salmond could give Jack a gong for services to the SNP.

After all as the greatest statesman since time began a little bit of gratitude would not be misplaced.

Good to see an Irishman winning the British Open.

Please will someone delete comments that don't refer to the article. Start with mine.

138

Media 1, I couldn't agree more. Zoom and his/her like are living in the past - "the dynamic of progress" my foot.

Wendy Alexander did have a job outside politics, as she was a consultant with one of the top firms in London for a while and has an MBA from France. On straight brains she will leave Alex in the dust, especially when it comes to economics. She is not as smooth as Alex or politically savy but I guess she will learn fast. The one big legacy that Jack has left us is PR for council elections which will ensure that cooperation is the key to getting things done in Scotland. Reading some of the more rabid SNP posts on this board suggests that Alex will have a tough job keeping his party under control. Will he be able to stick to the core task of making life better for the Scots. I wonder.

Remember that £5000 tax bill.......????

Remember those bogus 'ordinary' families.....????

Watch again....... lying for all to see http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=jhNAg9EYmcU&mode=relate...=

Also, this is directed solely at the entity AM2.... as well as commenting on the 'BBC' lies, is there any chance of a correction from yourself regarding the Libyian prisoner transfer....Blair denial lie that you so generously put us all to rights on....!!!!!

A wee reminder
http://uk.youtube.com/results?search_query=kirsty+wark

Thunderous silence.......!!!!

139

Doh, why is it good to see an Irishman win the Open?

I think wee Jack did his best with both hands tied behind his back. He tried to lead a partyt which is in turmoil with internal dissent and ego clashing . The sole reason for Wendy's probable succession to the leadership would be her control factor. It is really great to see this disintegration of a party, that many years ago stood for sound principles but for the last 50 has been taken over by maggots who pursue their own parasitical well being.

142

camster, while I agree with your comments on Ms Alexander, I disagree with your comment on PR and local government. It's not about "cooperation", it's about power and money and that is why we have ended up with deals/alliances/understandings that defy belief.

146

Rab, why is the Glasgow Glutton in Edinburgh?

138. well said,enough of all this doom and gloom,scotland place within the union is very important,let no one tell you differant.

#138 Media 1, i'm sure you would prefer God save the queen, because thats a really modern forward thinking song. I dont see how there is anything defeatist about Flower of Scotland, "we can still rise now and be a nation again" seems to me to be a call to move forward not back.

150

Dublin, I regard Scotland as a nation - don't you?

149, Mona. Scotland's 'place in the union' is a fallacy, hence the fact that the 300 anniversary celebrations were largely ignored south of the border. I agree Scotland needs to move on, but this cannot happen until independence, only then can we become partners with England in Europe as equal nations.

153

Dublin, I can assure you that the "celebrations" were ignored north of the border.

deadeye dick says: I voted Labour will vote Labour until the day I die.

Dead eye dick there is a very interesting little film which can be accessed from the Herald on Sunday. It tells of the poverty in Scotland and in Glasgow in particular.

The legacy of you and others blindly voting for 50 years is that 20% of the people of Scotland are officially below the poverty line. Furthermore, whereas in 1979 1 in 8 Scottish children were officially classed as poor, it has now doubled to 1 in 4.

And dead eye, this is after 30 years of Oil and as revenues which have been pouring down to London with the able assistance of our Labour masters in Scotland.

We have the unenviable record of being the first 1st world country to strike Oil and get poorer. So deadeye, Labour isn't a football team that you must support through thick or thin. Labour, like any other political party is a vehicle to get you from A to B.

When the destination (B) changes, we really have to think in terms of changing vehicles. We cannot give any politicians of any party carte blanche for ever and a day.

And for you SNP supporters ecstatic about the possibility of an early general election. You clearly haven't got much experience of running an election campaign. Pulling off May's victory took a Herculean effort and of course cost a considerable amount of money.

We have a possible 'Independence' election to fight in 2011 with a General election and a possible referendum in between. All of these things will come to pass, let's not wish them all at once.

Finally bear in mind that Scots do tend to think of Labour and Tory at general elections with smaller parties being squeezed somewhat. We would certainly increase our vote and number of MPs but a showing nowhere near as good as the media will lead people to believe possible will allow unionists to point to the SNP and say the bubble has burst.

I would say there is more to lose than gain via an early Westmi

#138 Media 1

I think that's a pretty unfair comment you made there my friend!

And what has Argentina got to do with anything???

Please temper your comments to the point!

PS
How is the weather there in Cape Town - over here in SCOTLAND the weather is fine, with scattered showers.

For the record our elected SNP government has not brought the sky falling down :-)

#151, I do, but what use is being a nation if you have to go cap in hand to another nation to ask permission before you do anything?

#150, I fail to see why the difference between "a" and "the" gets you so excited.

153. Only because that is scotlands mind set, you are as far as the majority of england is concerned a equal in the union. Englands problem is getting her own parliament,within the union.

John Reid would make a good Labour leader in Scotland.

Wendy Alexander is too hot headed and lets her anger overcome her reason.

#58 AM2

The Professor Tom Gallagher article is depolable.

Prof. Gallagher may well be an expert on East European Studies, Catholic migration to Scotland and, of course, the Labour Party. However, his analyse in this article is extremely biased.

He makes a number of unfounded assumptions, such as "The tenor of the SNP's public statements suggests that Salmond, in private conversation, did not ask for greater effort from religious leaders in challenging extremism or disavowing attacks on free speech even when Muslim sensibilities are offended"

He fails to hide his contempt for the SNP: "The SNP is a grievance party par excellence." The SNP are only a grievnace party if you are arguing from a unionist perspective.

He has a negative opinion of a society that protects its minorities: "An additional factor is that the Scottish establishment's embarrassment - even guilt - about two centuries of religious conflict between Catholics and Protestants....means that it nowadays makes great efforts to accommodate minorities."

He makes disgraceful associations between Scotland's Muslim community and the bombers: "Elderly figures like Bashir Maan, Scotland's first-ever Muslim city councillor, had their place of honour. But a younger generation of campaigners, who helped organise the assembly in the city's main square just days after co-religionists almost succeeded in destroying the city's airport, are now making the running."

However, he reserves the worst of his bile for Alex Salmond:

"Alex Salmond may never have worn a uniform, but he is projecting himself to religious minorities...as Scotland's answer to Colonel Gamal Abdel Nasser of Egypt or the Irish leader Michael Collins, who both struck out against an overmighty Britain in the last century with impressive effect."

"A potent aspect of Salmond's ebullient political persona is his lack of shame, a quality reinforc

McConnell's biggest problem in some peopel's eyes was that he was not a big idea person - that he preffered a more gradualistic approach to problems. Moreover, and he would be the first to admit, he was not the greatest debater. Perosnally, I judge politician's by their actions and not by their words. In some ways we should be thanful for Jack McConnell as he did provide a steadying hand after the turmoil of McLeish. Zoom asked us to name his 10 greatest achievements and after a little thought I thought I'd put forward my list (in no particular order):

* Smoking, Health and Social Care (Scotland) Act 2005

* Protection of Children and Prevention of Sexual Offences (Scotland) Act 2005

* Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Act 2006

* Nature Conservation (Scotland) Act 2004

* Community Care and Health (Scotland) Act 2002

* Education (Disability Strategies and Pupils' Educational Records) (Scotland) Act 2002

* Marriage (Scotland) Act 2002

* Protection of Wild Mammals (Scotland) Act 2002

* Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003

* Breastfeeding etc. (Scotland) Act 2005

I am sure others would pick other Acts and policies - but I think you will agree that those above have mad a difference to the lives of ordinary people.

155. seems you have a busy time ahead,was that a plea for funds,is the snp in financial hardship!!

143. Carlo, Fort William

Got any youtube links for us to review the Forked-Tongue-Paxman interview? Would be interesting to see again after the BBC's admission of shoddy journalism!

"The Professor Tom Gallagher article is depolable."

Sorry about the deplorable spelling.

#161, Agreed. The Scotsman's reporting on this has also been appalling, and no comments allowed show's that this is an another attempt by the newspaper to defame Alex Salmond without reproach.

"We can still rise now, and be a nation again"

We are a nation! A very wonderful nation.

The Union does not prevent England, Scotland, Wales and Norn Ire from maximising their potential. It assists them in realising it.

We are a nation, a very important nation...Dont let men like Salmond run you down.

#158, this is a typical answer. It's always 'Scotland's mindset' or 'moaning Scots. If Scotland is equal in the union why do we have the Church of ENGLAND as the state church and provided seats in the Lords and the Bank of ENGLAND setting interest rates and printing the only legal tender. Why did the royal navy spell out ENGLAND expects to the ENGLAND football team, why is it the Queen of England (QEII) that opens parliment etc, etc...
Clearly an equal in the Union.

#169 Media 1

"We are a nation! A very wonderful nation.

The Union does not prevent England, Scotland, Wales and Norn Ire from maximising their potential. It assists them in realising it."

There is a big inconsistency in what you say.

Scotland was a nation state. And we are a nation in our own eyes.

Unfotunately, at the point of joining the Union, we ceased to be a nation in anyone else's eyes.

It may be that Scotland is better off as a part of the Union than being independent (though, I do not agree), but it is quite incorrect to say that "The Union does not prevent England, Scotland, Wales and Norn Ire from maximising their potential", if you are also discussing Scotland being a nation.

On the contrary, the Union prevents Scotland acheiving any potential AS A NATION.

169,Media 1, absolutely, you hit the nail on the head,so good luck to the scottish people;as for the people of England,get off your a--es,and lets have our own parliament!

172.How?

#168, you obviously feel very strongly about this. I see the song the same way myself but I would see it the same way whether it was "a nation that stood against him" or "the nation that stood against them".

#175 Mona

We cannot have it both ways; to maximise our nation's potential, and be a part of the Union.

Being a part of the Union means, legally and practically, that beyond our shores, we are not a nation.

"166. Methalions / 1:00pm 23 Jul 2007 #120 Edward

"Can you actually state how much McConnell ( a teacher by profession) has done so much for Scotland and how Alex Salmond (an economist by profession) can learn from him?"

Why did you have to put the professions in? Are you saying an economist is better than a teacher?"

I'm a teacher of Economics - I win either way . . .

;)

STOP PRESS !!!

BBC ADMITS FABRICATING ANTI INDEPENDENCE POLL.

SCOTTISH QUALITY NEWSPAPER CENSORS COVERAGE.

#169 Media 1, poor response. Its interesting how the unionist tactics have changed over the years. For a long time it was always an attempt to make Scots feel that they couldnt make it on their own and that we needed the security of the UK. As that argument has been lost they are now switching to a supposed internationalist argument, 'the sum is better than the parts' etc. Once you lose that argument what will be the next angle?

#175 Mona: They cannot tell you how.

The majority of the SNP supporters are the ones you see filling the pubs when England are playing football. They all wear Argentina tops and cheer louder for an England defeat than a Scottis triumph.

The union assists Scotland and the other nations realise their potential, you know that and so do millions of others. Let them shout their hatred and down grading insults on Scotland and her position within the union, its their perogative to do so...

zoom, we're all in the same boat, sorry to burst your bubble,but most of england and wales have the same if not worse povety levels as scotland,and we don't have Barnett to help us out!

#184 media 1...didn't Ol'Jack wear his Trinidad and Tobago top at the World Cup?? Is he a SNP supporter?

#161

What was even more appalling was that there was no thread to discuss the points raised in the article.

I think it was a completely unfair using Osama Saeed to discredit Salmond. Whilst I believe Saeed has been way out of order in some of his comments I do not believe for one instant that they were supported by the First Minister.

#182 Scotsman in Dublin

The next argument is already being lost.

After the "sum of the parts" argument, it went onto, even though Scotland could manage on its own, the European Union would not (necessarily) accept it.

Already, this patently nonsensical argument is lost with the growing awareness that Scotland has 25% of the EU's renewable energy resources, 20% of its fishing grounds, and the only existing EU controlled entry from the North Sea to the Baltic Sea and the English Channel.

#184 That must make me an SNP supporter then . . .

Hope he takes his chinese mandarin phrase book with him, and the labour party hand him a bottle of buckie for all his hard work and effort.

184.Media 1. how very sad, why should this be, the union is not to blame for all of scotlands woes,why can't they see that!

#184 Media 1

"They cannot tell you how"

I think you should read back to #172 and #178.

#184, Media 1, you are getting more pathetic by the minute. The type of people you describe are rarely SNP supporters, more often than not they are the type who give the "hate the English" chant one minute and then blindly vote labour the next. People like you are quite happy with this state of affairs because you want to prevent Scotland from moving on.
#185, Mona, give it a rest with the Barnett nonsense. There are a number of reasons for this formula existing but only people with an agenda can twist it into a pro-Scottish bias. People who bring this up never care to mention all the goverment money that heads to London and the south under other guises.

192

Mona get a grip. Media 1 simply comes on this forum to wind people up. His comments are ludicrous.

'The majority of the SNP supporters are the ones you see filling the pubs when England are playing football'.

So presumably all SNP supporters are men and football fans.

Sexist as well as bigoted.

To answer your question - no, the Union is not the cause of all of Scotland's woes but it is the cause of some of them.

Can I just ask you a question while we are on the subject?

Do you think it is sad that Ireland is independent?

Do you think it is sad that Norway is no longer in a Union with Sweden?

Do you think it is sad that Estonia is independent?

When the people of Montenegro voted for independence last year did you say to yourself 'how sad'?

Who is this 'jack McConnell'?

I've never heard of him!

#196

He's the UN America & Russias special envoy for China.....

194. that may or may not be, but it always amazes me, how scotland pleads poverty one minute,then tell you how rich it will be once independent, now i'm no maths expert,but, if you lose millions of pounds subsidy,how will the people of scotland be better off, at least in the short term!

#192 mona: The thing is, Scotland does not have many woes. She is a wealthy and affluent nation and getting stronger all the time.

Dont be fooled by the SNP crew. Their agenda has little to do with Scotland and everything to do with England. Scotland achieving, Scotland is succeeding and doing it very well. We have plenty to be proud off and lots to look forward. Yes there is problems, but none different from the problems other nations experience. Off-course when problems arise the first thing the SNP crew do is look South and point fingers. That is a sign of people who dont want to take responsibility for their own actions, imagine those people in an independent Scotland. All us who love Scotland would be working to support most of the SNP crews.

I know the union works for Scotland, as do millions of others. Thats all that matters

to 148 dear patrick what colour of form did you fill in to get your cooncil joabie ?

magic photie of Wee Joke: the arrow could easily shoot straight through the void in the middle!!
Lord McConnell of Arran would be an ideal stablemate in the Upper House for those other Scottish New Labour tossers: Lord Fool(kes) and Lord Pyro Watson......
Just wait till Dame Wee Wicked Wendy gets centre stage!!!!!
These panto characters are the SNP's dream. Let's hope the voters are clocking all of the New Labour shenanigans and that they'll remember all of this at the next election!!!

miss H. Stop twisting my words, you know full fine well I ment it was sad that scottish folk should blame the union for it's woes, as for the football thing,that just infantile, wether in scotland or england!

184 Media, You say;

The union assists Scotland and the other nations realise their potential

Oh aye is that so, then why has Scotland, Wales, N/Ireland all have Nationalist parties in Government

McConnell was poor. From a party that had John Smith, Robin Cook he simply was not up to it. The worst part for me is that he simply did not allow himself to be his own man. The fact that his supporters had to leak that Brown was behind the negative campaign and he was not in charge and he did not agree with it meant that he came across poorly.

Labour quite simply need someone with vision to lead it. I really cannot see Wendy being up to it. Will she tell brown where to go. Will she be her own person. The most urgent issues i can see it to stabilise the constitution.

England are unhappy with the budget, and scottish mps voting on english matters and 80% of scots apparently want more power to the scottish parliament. Being scared of reviewing the settlement and unstanding that u may have got things wrong has got to be a start.

Wendy's successful scotland initiative has not exactly been a success. she herself critising the implementation by jacks team, rahter than dealing with fact that maybe she herself got it wrong.

#198 Mona

"now i'm no maths expert,but, if you lose millions of pounds subsidy,how will the people of scotland be better off, at least in the short term!"

You need to ask questions such as:

"What does Scotland put into the pot before the money is given out again?"

"Why does Scotland generate less revenue from taxation than the UK average when it has more people in employment than the UK average?"

#203 Don't quite see your point here - even if the union were perfect (and I'm not saying it is before someone jumps down my throat) there would still be nationalist parties. As there will always be trotskyite parties, anarchists and so on.

STV Can we please have a program on TV highlighting Union Jacks accomplishments........It would be funnier than Still Game.

#199 Media 1

I'm pretty much resigned to the prospect of you ignoring this post, like you have with every other post that challenges your position.

However:

"Off-course when problems arise the first thing the SNP crew do is look South and point fingers. That is a sign of people who dont want to take responsibility for their own actions, imagine those people in an independent Scotland."

"A sign of people who don't want to take responsibility for their own actions" is letting someone else govern your affairs.

The SNP want Scotland to manage its own affairs, while unionist Scots want Westminster to look after us instead.

#206 zoom: Poverty in Scotland has little to do with the union. In fact, if not for the union there would not be the affluence that so much of Scotland enjoys..Stop bringing Scotland and Scots down!

199,Media 1, I think all sensible people in scotland, realise that the union works as much for them as it does for other parts of the uk; only a referendum will put a end to this once and for all.

Oh and STV can we include Mandarin subtitles for all the viewers at home learning Mandarin?

#198, Mona, I don't see your logic, Oil revenue alone would make up for any supposed shortfall and a Scottish government would be able to make the best decisions for Scotland without allowing party politics get in the way, such as was often the case with the previous labour administration. But i digress, I generally do not go on about the money aspect to independence as whether Scotland is better off or not is largely going to depend on decisions made by a future Scottish government. For me there is largely an emotional aspect, where I do not feel British in any way and do feel Scottish. Therefore I would naturally want to see my own country run their own affairs and take their place once again as a nation amongst the nations of the world. English people don't understand this part because England and Britain are largely seen as synonymous outside of the UK.

Incidentally I am curious since i am getting the impression that you are English/living in England (would i be correct in this, if not I apologise?) what it is that you hope to contribute or why you chose to seek out a Scottish political forum on the web?

p.s. Don't pay too much heed to media 1, anyone who visits these forums regularly knows that this entity is a particularly twisted one that seems to have a full time job of coming in here and making mindless comments and generally trying to wind people up.

#211 Mona

Are you saying that only Labour voters are sensible people, or only those who believe in the Union?

And are all Labour voters (or Unionists) sensible people, or just some?

McConnell's problem though is that he was not trusted by many in the Labour Party - some of that has a lot has to do with his background in the nationalist wing of the Labour Party - Scottish Labour Action. McConnell never raelly had the full backing of his party - either from a UK perspective or from a Scottish perspective. Some also had grudges to bear linked to both Lanarkshire personal poltics and to his part in McLeish's departure.

The sad thing is that in his role of opposition leader he was actually beginning to perform better - may be he was more at ease because he knew he was going to go.

Just one thought - I wonder how much his wife has had to do with his decision - it would not surprise me if she is the one who has persuaded him to go - and not the usual men in suits.

#209 talorthane: Wrong, I want to operate within the union for the benefit of Scotland. I respect Scotlands position within the union, its been like that for 300 years so why change it now? Embrace it and be passionate about Scotland and there will be even more affluence and good times ahead.

Hang your head, look for problems and be defeatest and you will always fail. Its simple, you make the best of what you have until you have something else. If the people of Scotland eventually vote for independence then so be it, we become independent. But until that happens you embrace what you have for Scotland's benefit. Or you turn your back on Scotland's benefit and look for excuses to find failure in everything you do.

Good riddence.
The guys an idiot.
Mr Salmond... just by getting rid of that idiot you have done Scotland a huge favour, I am sure you will continue to do your magic and return our great country back to where it belongs.

#198

You make the mistake that some (but not all) unionists do - the issue of independence is not just about money. There are strong social and political reasons for independence - just as there are strong social and political reasons for the union. Bringing it down to a simplistic money argument just does not wash with me.

Whilst I may have economic reasons for opposing independence it is the political and social reasons that are far more persuasive for me - that is equally true by the way about my attitude to the union.

So Jacks away. I don't blame him for not being up to the job of FM what annoyed me was the way he tried to make the job live down to him. The whole period of his office was characterised by unoriginal thought and lack of ambition (no wonder media one is such a fan). The 'achievments Smoking ban an SNP private members bill till Jack jumped on the bandwagon. Free personal care passed in teeth of Labour opposition. We had endless consultation exercises and no action. No sorry heart in the right place in many ways but never First Minister material and as for Wendy if that is what passes for an intellectual in the Scottish Labour Party these days its goig to be a long long time in opposition.

#217 Media 1

"Wrong, I want to operate within the union for the benefit of Scotland."

And if it becomes clear that Scotland's interests would be better served by independence would you agree to Scotland leaving the UK?

"I respect Scotlands position within the union, its been like that for 300 years so why change it now?"

If a majority of the Scottish public vote for independence then that would be the reason.

"Embrace it and be passionate about Scotland and there will be even more affluence and good times ahead."

Belief in the Union alone will not ensure prosperity.

"Hang your head, look for problems and be defeatest and you will always fail."

If you are suggesting that a belief in Scottish self-determination is a defeatist approach then that is nothing more than a value judgement.

"you make the best of what you have until you have something else."

What would be defeatist is to just wait to see if something else comes along rather than to act in order to bring about positive change.

"If the people of Scotland eventually vote for independence then so be it, we become independent."

Agreed.

"But until that happens you embrace what you have for Scotland's benefit."

That is the aim of the SNP. The unionist parties' agenda's are less certain, as they do have the completing interests of the UK to deal with first (and foremost).

"Or you turn your back on Scotland's benefit and look for excuses to find failure in everything you do."

That is not the approach of the SNP. Hopefully it is not anyone else's approach either.

207 Not a Unionist or a Nationalist,

The point is that at this precise moment in time people all over the "UK" are trying very hard to get out of it, does that say it's working. We've (all of us) been spoon fed a diet of lies and deciet, and now the chickens are comming home to roost.

Re Media1 (#217) : "I respect Scotlands position within the union, its been like that for 300 years so why change it now?"

To bring an end to (i) invisibility and isolation from the international community; (ii) economic policies that are contrary to our interests; (iii) policies of linguistic and cultural cleansing; and (iv) rule by a British "establishment" that regards us and our country with disdain.

#221 I don't particularly like Wendy Alexander BUT it would be folly for anyone to underestimate her - from my experience she is a lot more practiced in the black arts than McConnell ever was.

213, well i'm in the wonderful position of having a scottish husband, we have been together for 32 years, so england and scotland can be one!

Alistair Cook, the erstwhile broadcaster of the world's longest running speech programme (54years) quoted in an interview with H L Mencken(1880- 1956) on the subject matter of being a reporter.A.C. reports among the many words of encouragement and wisdom, two he especially remembered.
1)In your time as a correspondent you will be appalled,delighted, outraged, charmed, disgusted, but generally tickled pink at the antics of this lively democracy,but I'll tell you something it's a nine ringed circus and you will never be bored.
A.C. say's "In that he was right."
2)Preciouse guidline.Test of a good political reporter.
"To the extent that you are a Conservative, Liberal,Republican, Democratic, or a Socialist you are no reporter at all".A.C. translated that into a main credo in his journalistic lifetime as "The test of a good political reporter is you don't know how he votes"
What has any of that to do with the current nine ringed circus of the previouse comment's here to fore.
1)Exemplar's of the S.N.P.shine through as people with jackets that are hung upon a very "shoogly" nail.
2)JACK Mconnell Was/is a fine politician.
3)Gordon Brown has made a most impressive start to his Premiership.

214. you said that not me; I said the only way this will be resolved,is through a referendum.

#213. England and Scotland are synonymous outside the UK. Yes, this is true to a large extent but it is not true within the UK and that's what counts. Scotland gets far more attention within the UK than Yorkshire or Lancashire do. You say you don't 'feel' British but - in all honesty - how would you fell if part of the island of Great Britain was occupied by a foreign power? Would it concern you or would you just shrug your shoulders? Do you really want an international border on this island?

#223

Just because there are large numbers voting for nationalist parties does not mean that independence per se is the solution. A lot of those voting for them are doing so out of frustration at the old parties - the SNP is the only place for them to make a protest that can be heard.

That being said - if I were the unionist parties I would not run away from the issue as they seem to be doing at present. The best thing an incoming Scottish Labour leader could do would be to commit to a referendum as soon as possible and take on the SNP's arguments. They also need to be far more proactive in sorting out the problems of the union instead of acting negatively to the issues.

If they don't do that there is a good chance that independence will happen by default

224. that is a load of c--p, and you know it, stop this pity me routine,you do your country no favours!

Mona & Media1

Every pro-Independence supporter in Scotland would be pleased to see the scrapping of "The Barnett Formula" in return for Full Fiscal Autonomy.

It should be enlightening to you, though, that the esteemed Economic guru of NuLabour, PM Brown, reiterrated, no later than this morning, that this is not on his agenda. Perhaps, one should wonder why.

My contention is that the real contributions from Scotland would become very clear and, would show the people of Scotland what lies they have been fed, for a very long time, thus hastening the end of the Union. Further, it would cause the English regions to start asking serious questions about the Londoncentricity of Westminster government.

Westminster is in a cleft stick with "Barnett".

Keep it; English voter resentment grows.

Get rid of it, by either reducing it or, by replacing it with FFA; hastened Independence for Scotland.

My bet is on Westminster choosing English voter resentment, as the alternative is too terrible for that august body to contemplate.

#225 making a career in the Labour party may well qualify one in the 'black arts' as you say but I have yet to see any evidence for the formidable intellect attributed to her and her brother. Rather it speaks volumes for the paucity of that quality in Labour's Holyrood membership.

#213

That is a red herring indeed - the Czech Republic and Slovakia have been seperate entities for the last 14 years but Slovaks still get called Czechs when they are abroad.

An independent Scotland is not going to make those sorts of attitudes go - it is more about people's ignorance than anything.

Re mona (#232) : pity doesn't come into it, nor is such a dismissive response convincing in the slightest degree.

#233 Frank - there are a lot of unionists who would not mind full fiscal autonomy either - it would be one way to combat the myths over subsidies.

#228 Mona

You ssaid:

"I think all sensible people in scotland, realise that the union works as much for them as it does for other parts of the uk"

#228 Mona

You said:

"I think all sensible people in scotland, realise that the union works as much for them as it does for other parts of the uk"

#226, I see. I can understand then why Scottish independence might concern you but i can assure you there is nothing to worry about. Contrary to media 1 propaganda this is not about Scotland v England and will not bring a wave of anti-English feeling. I imagine you might understand my position if England were in a union with say the USA. This would be similar in terms of population difference and result in England having the same say in the union as Texas or California. The English flag would be hidden under the stars and stripes and people round the world would refer to you as American.

Zoom: I have always wanted a referendum. I want it now, right now!

I would love the chance to say NO to independence! But I would respect the outcome of the vote no matter who won. Truth is, most Scots dont want independence, but that may change, who knows!

We can agree to disagree.

Mona

Scotland is held back by a number of problems some of which can be tackled with the powers that the Scottish Parliament currently has and some of which need the powers that would come with independence and the end of the Union.

- Such as the power to set more competitive rates of business taxation and take other economic measures to stimulate economic growth.

- Such as the power to radically reform the tax and benefits systems which contain many poverty traps that keep people in dependency – some wards in Glasgow have 50% + people on benefits. To change that we must have powers to change the way benefits are paid out as well as the powers to stimulate economic activity in those areas.

- Such as the power to negotiate for ourselves in the EU and other world bodies so that we can get the best deal and defend our national interests such as fishing.

We also need the power to take our own decisions about security and defence, such as the decision to site a new generation of nuclear weapons stationed on the Clyde. The majority of the Scottish people are opposed to that. The majority of Scottish MPs voted against that. The Scottish Parliament has voted against that. But, unless we have the power to stop it, that will go ahead irrespective of the clearly stated wishes of the Scottish people.

These are just a few examples of why more and more people in Scotland want our Parliament to have the same powers as other parliaments and our government to have the same powers as other governments.

We are not being silly and emotional. We have not watched Braveheart one too many times. We are not anti-English.

What we want for Scotland is what other countries take for granted – the power to take our own decisions, earn and spend our own money and take responsibility for our own actions. We believe this will make Scotland a more successful country for everyone who lives here.

So please stop being patronising and ac

230 Your 1st paragraph - Agreed, BUT and I think you will agree that this time it's a hell of a lot more than a protest vote ?

#242 scotsman in dublin: The difference is, the Scottish flag is not hidden on the union flag, its very much part of the union flag..Always has been, always will be.

#243 A rare moment - I am in total agreement with you there - a referendum would at least give us some sort of long-term stability instead of having the issue fester and bringing uncertainty.

I feel that while we have this uncertainty it is a disincentive to inward investment.

#245 I agree which is why I also said that we may end up with independence by default if the unionist parties don't get their act together.

If ever the 'Honours' system is shown up for being what it is ie a FARCE, then Joke receiving a Peerage takes the biscuit. A Socialist should NEVER entertain the House of Lords. More importantly though, he has done NOTHING to deserve it other than be a Blairite puppet. We have to take a serious look at the whole Honours system. It has no place in a Democracy.

#213 Mona

"well i'm in the wonderful position of having a scottish husband, we have been together for 32 years, so england and scotland can be one!"

You asked earlier about the subsidy that Scotland receives.

To use your Anglo-Scottish union as an analogy.

Imagine you put your wages into your bank account, and then took your husband's wages from him and put it into your bank account as well.

Then you gave him an allowance, telling him that he was getting more than he deserved.

In his attempts to establish his own estimation of his own self-worth, he had frequently asked to see his wage slips, but even these were denied him.

He did occasionally receive numerous explanations about why he should be grateful to receive what he did, but these quite often contradicted with each other, which only led him further to believe that something didn't add up.

He then looked at how much work he did, and he definately didn't do any less work than you. And while it's difficult to place a relative value on different types of work, he felt his work was no less important.

You kept telling him that the only solution was to have sparate bank accounts, which would leave him worse off, as you wouldn't be able to bail him out any more.

He feels that you would get on just as well, if not better, if you each had a bank account.

#235, I don't see why this is a red herring. The 'world' attitude of Britain=England has a lot to do with England itself and how it presents itself. As I said already in post #171 many of the state institutions such as "Bank of England" present themselves in this way, English statesman of the past have often used 'England' to refer to Britain, even the royal family using the term QEII show their belief that even before union they were overlords of Scotland. You cant always just shrug this off by pointing to the ignorance of people from other countries, they have this impression because is the one that the British establishment give out.

#229, Great Britain is not an Island, its a political entity. And what is your point here? Should all countries that share a land mass be joined in Union? What a bizarre statement. As far as your 'how would i feel comment', in my eyes England is a foreign power but if a hostile country invaded England once Scotland was independent I would expect Scotland to assist England as neighbors.

248, Default - maybe, more likely that Scots or English or both will vote for it

223, if that is the case, mr Bown has made the biggest mistake of his political career, england will not stand for that.

#244 Whilst you make some convincing arguments the reality is that there will always be voters who vote SNP on the Braveheart basis - they are no better than the sheep who used to re-elect Labour MPs in the past.

That is not a criticism - just a fact - in some ways the SNP has tried to move on from such notions - especailly compared to some of the nonsense of the 70s but occasionally they do lapse back into such sentimentality.

#239, Not a Unionist or Nationalist.

I agree with your comment. But would you agree with my conclusion? That it would hasten Independence.

#243, Media 1 you said "I would love the chance to say NO to independence! But I would respect the outcome of the vote no matter who won"

I seem to remember on a previous thread you saying that if Scotland became independent you would pack your bags and leave forever, has this changed?

249 P C McGarry,
you hit the nail on the head. joke's a blairite, if blair doesn't put him forward for the lords, then you can bet you arse broon wont

#251 The obsession of some with symbolism really bugs me - what matters is real issues and real politics - they could put Home Simpson on our coins and it would not bother me - as long as I could spend it.

Talorthane - a good analogy.

With regards to the story, I think that Wendy Alexander talks a good fight, but then so does Salmond. She can think on her feet, but equally so can Salmond..for me the question is, do people actually warm to her? I don't think they do, in the same way as I don't think Nicola Sturgeon is particularly likeable (she is a bit of a nippy sweetie).

Kerr, on the other hand, is probably less capable at thinking on his feet and political tit-for-tat, but is probably an all round more likeable character.

Perhaps I am just a latent sexist though?!

#255 I actually believe it would hasten a move to a federal UK - something which I strongly support.

254, The Braveheart tag, last vestige of unionist scoundral

#256 Scotsman in Dublin
Alas I fear that if media1 were to pack his bags (there must be a village somewhere in need of an idiot) he would still be on this forum post independece bemoaning the loss of empire.

#253, Mona.

Have a look at this morning's PM's weekly news conference.

The point that I was making is that the Unionist parties would rather lose a Westminster election than Scotland. All of them.

260,
Does that mean you've now made up your mind. and you'll change your tag to Federalist

Lord Corner boy Mc Connell ? or should that be Mc Candle. Checkout out the Mc Connell body langauge and swap heids with George W. !!!!!!!
...See what I mean .....?

#256 Scotsman in dublin: I did say that! I regret saying it because that is not how I feel.

I dont want an independent Scotland but if the people of Scotland voted for it, then I would support the democratic process and embrace the new system.

Thing is, Scotland is not independent. So why not embrace the union system until she is! Be supportive of Scotland no matter what. I just feel there is so much hatred from the SNP toward the union that instead of assisting Scotland in moving forward they are hindering us. Scotland is an affluent country, thats the bottom line.

Lets embrace the union until its time to embrace something else.

#258, i dont see why it should "bug" you. I am sure that symbolism would mean something to you if they started hanging swastika's up and printing coins with Adolf Hitler's face on them.

#267 Media 1

"Thing is, Scotland is not independent. So why not embrace the union system until she is! Be supportive of Scotland no matter what. I just feel there is so much hatred from the SNP toward the union that instead of assisting Scotland in moving forward they are hindering us. Scotland is an affluent country, thats the bottom line.

Lets embrace the union until its time to embrace something else."

No change would ever take place if everyone just embraced what they had. Such an approach would mean that women wouldn't vote, slavery would still exist and the Labour Party would never have been formed.

And to be clear, I'm not comparing Scotland's place in the Union to slavery, but highlighting some of the most significant political changes that only took place because people advocated change before it was an option ay the ballot box.

#267, thats a very honest and fair answer. However, you still managed to throw the words 'hatred' and 'SNP' into the same sentence which is what I dont like about your style. By all means try and convince us of the merits of staying within the union but try to leave out the constant subtle attempts to try and associate Salmond, nationalists and the snp with hate and anti-English sentiments.

271 Zoom,
Are you certain he's not here ?

250. as entertaining and amuseing as your tale of marital disfunction is, it is lacking a few core details, scotland pays taxes the same as england, but scotland only has 5 million population, england however has 50million, so by my reckoning, how can scotland have more in employment, thing your in la la land!

#270 Talorthane:

Nonsense; When I say embrace the union I mean embrace Scotland and accept her position within the union. If you dont want the union thats fine, you can voice your opinion and work for a referendum, and a referendum is what we need. But you can still be positive about Scotland and her people within the existing system.

#275 Mona

I never said that Scotland had more employment than England. That would be silly.

I am struggling to understand how the argument would not be interpreted as employment per head of population.

On that topic, despite returning less tax returns (PER HEAD OF POPULATION), Scotland has a higher than average number of people in work (COMPARED TO THE UK AVERAGE).

The deficit is caused, mainly, by London having an average salary of 160% of the UK average.

As a result, despite all of the focus on Scotland returning less than the average tax return, this is true of every region in the UK except London and the South East.

And this discussion has yet to include the North Sea oil revenues, which come mainly from Scottish waters. This is partly what I meant when I referred to what Scotland contributes to the UK before allocations are given back out.

#274, pehman.

ya eejit!!

Now you know what's coming. But, my #305 from yesterday is ready.

Media 1 are you on the Durban poison by any chance ? What on earth does 'lets embrace the union until it is time to embrace something else' mean? This is a completely nonsensical staement even by your standards.. Possibly I am missing a deeper significance and your are now stating that the union is a marriage of convenience and we should get out as soon as something better comes along. This is somewhat different to your earlier (ad nauseum) stated position and your emotional aatachment to the union flag.

#277 Media 1

I am very positive about Scotland and her people.

I see Scotland as a nation rather than a region.

And I am confident that Scotland's people are more than capable of running Scotland. How can that not be the case when Scots appear to be capable of running the UK?

116 Zoom

Nail on the head ! The first major party, besides the SNP, to stand as an independent Scottish party, and supporting an independent Scotland, is going to collect a large number of extra votes as a result.
Which party sees the writing on the wall first, and then has the courage to break with Westminster, remains to be seen. Politically it will be a fortune changing move for that individual party, and of course the resulting balance in the numbers of pro referendum seats, should secure the future of an independent Scotland.
The same would be equally true for England, if the Tories, for example, stood on an independence platform, there would be huge numbers of potential votes to be gleaned from the supporters of an independent England.
The problem is turning senior political heads away from old traditional Unionist thinking, towards a more forward looking independence agenda,
Then, both England and Scotland would benefit by becoming individual nations again, each within the European Union of countries. ( not states, as some would have us think.)
As you suggest, this is hypothetical, but politically things are changing, and quite rapidly. It could be that we are not too far away from the day when one of the Unionist party leaders decides to grab the initiative and de-Unionise', then watch as the supporters roll in.

#268. Zoom. Try reading my post again. FYI My Irish friend was denied entry to China on an Irish passport because all English people needed a visa.

#251,

Great Britain is an island, or at least it was last time I checked . In fact I am sitting on it right now. Or I thought I was anyway.

Anyhoo,

Jack McConnell's greatest achievement?

Wearing that skirt in New York. And doing that mincey pose. For that he will never be forgotten.

It cost him HK$500

Davie 08: It means, dont let your hatred for England and the union damage Scotland's current position.

Accept the current position, work positively within it until you achieve you goals. Its simple really!

Durban poison? Hardly, I tend to leave such things to those who cannot function as themselves.

#282, this is a good point. I have thought for a while that it's only a matter of time before we start to see some defections to the SNP or a change in policy from one of the other parties. I always thought Jack himself was torn between his loyalty to Scotland and that to the party. I believe that there are many factions within the Liberals and Labour who who could be on the edge of this. To be fair it was people within the Labour party with nationalist leanings that forced the devolution referendum - I believe that those same factions given time will make the natural leap to full independence.

279 Frank,
Ach it's to quiet with oot him, Just watch who drops off posting though.

Lord Numpty of Motherhell

Another Irish friend of mine (travelling on an Irish passport) was denied entry to Indonesia (Bali) because Ireland wasn't on their no visa list (though EU countries were). Her British boyfriend sailed through but it cost her HK$2,000 for an ... ahem ... 'emergency' visa. It was a case of pay up on you're on the next plane back. I only know 2 Irish people and they have both been shafted by dodgy customs officials outside the EU. Of course, with Ireland being a small nation, there wasn't a consulate in sight.

280 Dave08,
He means that we should stick to the union until the union ditch's us !

#284, maybe i am being pedantic here but 'Great Britain' is not an island, it is a political name adopted after the act of union. Many people in parts of the UK that are not part of the same land mass consider themselves to be part of 'Great Britain' hence it cannot be an island.

#275, Mona.

To show the stupidity of your proposition.

I know a woman called Lizzie Windsor. She has 4 children who all work in some measure. The Windsor family is very prosperous.

I also know a Mrs. McBride. She has 7 children, some of whom are currently not working. The McBride family is not very well off.

I also know of a country called Luxemburg which has a population of 1/4million people. I belief it the highest wages in Europe, with a commensurate lifestyle.
I also know a country called Russia, part of a Union (CIS). It has a population of 300millions. I believe wages are very low and, its people have a poor quality of life.

But, you may be right: my logic might be wrong.

#288 Media 1

What you are really saying is don't let your love of Scotland damage the UK.

This is one of the myths that persist, and get regurgitated over and over again.

Most people (I'm not denying there are exceptions - every group has them) who support Scottish independence do so for their postive ambitions for Scotland and not anything to do with the English or anyone else.

#288, Media 1, you are at it again, should we have a sweep for how many times you are going to use 'Hate' or 'hatred' in one thread? This is the lowest form of politics; quite common from you and other unionists, you cant win the argument so you resort to the trying to slander your political opponents.

285 Zoom,
I'm right beside you on that one. There has to be some way to make them justify that

zoom, How about a civil case- Breach of Charter

291, Lord wishy washy o wisha

From Happy Jack's expression in the photo, there is another arrow up his erse.

Roll on interviews with the Wide Mouthed Frog.

15 INTERnationalist and ANY OTHER INTERESTED PARTY: Did you by any chance notice in yesterday's press that Lord (I'll have a double) Foulkes has failed to enter his House of Lords allowance in the Holyrood register of members' interests. Peers can claim more than £300 per day. I am amazed that such a clever chap has failed to do this. Certainly, there would have been no excuses for SNP members failing to register. I wonder what his excuse will be? Perhaps he was as tired as a newt!

#288 Media 1
Why do you always equate a desire to end the union as hatred of the English it is a complete non sequitor. Really the level of your argument is very poor. As an occasional visitor to this site the vast majority of people who have bothered to engage with you have wasted a great deal of time patiently explaining that wanting to return Scotland to its status as a nation state is in no way an expression of anti-English animosity, why should it be? Equally if humanity followed your advice to embrace the status quo Ur of the Chaldees would be a damned crowded place by now.

Lets have a referendum...The people of Scotland deserve the opportunity to decide for themselves what is best for Scotland.

that day will come...

Zoom problem with 299, English court or Scottish ?

#293
Pehman thanks it makes more sense tham Media 1 'explanation'

pehman.

Do you see similarities in posting, on this thread as we do in our good friend's?

#294,

It was an island long before it was a political name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain

304 Media,
it's only the SNP that are pushing for it

307 Frank, no not yet , no mmms

Mona's gone. Must be Maxi's shift. Watch for other changes.

#15, Alex Salmond is THE best internationalists in
Scotland bar none, unlike yourself, you silly wee moron!!!

Anyway, back to Wendy Alexander.

There seems to be wide assumptions that here metamorphosis will go according to plan and that she will re-emerge and spread her wings.

The trouble is that she may not mature into the anticipated Red Admiral.

She may end up as an ordinary Cabbage White.

(I would like it to be noted that I went out of my way not to mention the following butterfly names: Convict, Red-banded Hairstreak, Cruiser, Common Buckeye, Malachite, Painted Lady, West Coast Lady, Stinky Leaf Wing, Common Wood Nymph, Green Underside, or any others)

296/297. we are winning the arguement that's the trouble, all you can do is put scotland down,make believe you are poverty struck, this is a lie, scotland is thriving, so stop this pity me c--p,

#282, #289, #312.

Come on, guys!!!

The Tories flagged this up before the Election. They are playing a suck-it-and-see game at the moment.
Hasn't Auntie Annabel being playing rather a good game?

#319 Mona

You don't win arguments by putting your head in the sand to avoid any criticims of your position.

This is what you have done so far.

You have to put forward your own coherent arguments, preferably backed up by facts.

This you have failed to do, so far.

314, no I HAVEN'T and who's maxi?

#320, Methalions.

What's this with "lite"?

Zoom 312,
Lets wait and see what broons got up his sleeve, cuts to Scottish budget so that SNP budget wont work, he say's no but I'm certain he means yes.

However as you say that may itself backfire and cause a storm that forces the hand of nationalist in the other parties. Gasp maybe even the press

#322 Dr Who

PMSL!

Only in passing! ;)

#303 Davie: There is no getting away from the fact that anti English sentiment is a major factor in a move toward independence. To deny it as such would be absolutely ludicrous, we all know the levels of depravity some Scots reach when it comes to England.

Perhaps some people, base their pro independence position on an actual understanding of economics and the science of politics. However, most do so on the basis that they have been indoctrinated to view England as the big bad wolf.

FREEEEDUM! Such cries definately tug at the emotional part of a persons being, but does it do so for the good of Scotland? Or to the detrement?

I would welcome a referendum, that way if the decision is no to independence we can move on and make the union a better place for all parties concerned. If it is yes to independence we can move on within the new system and see where it takes us.

I am all for the peoples right to chose, but dont attempt to deny the fact that a move to independence has nothing to do with Scottish psyche in relation to England. Cmon, even you cant be that naive.

Boy Oh Boy...!!!! the entity AM2 sure does sulk when they've been proved to be pitifully wrong...!!!

I would like to make a suggestion to all of those out there who find AM2's arguments against self-determination paper thin....!!!!

Whenever they post on a thread, keep asking the same questions that I posed in #143.....

I should add that the same should suffice for Media1 and Royster........I'm quite sure that they had lots to say on the same subjects......If they deny it I'm sure some links to their previous mutterings will sort them out.....!!!

Anyway they are all probably the same person or group within the Scotsman

Media1 #328

Post your source for this ridiculous statement
"There is no getting away from the fact that anti English sentiment is a major factor in a move toward independence."

And I dont mean a link to some idiots trashing a car in a BBC set up

Put up or shut up....as the saying goes...!!!

oi, mona has nothing to do with me or maxi, OK???

328

You don't actually live in Scotland do you?

You have no understanding of what the SNP is about or why people voted SNP in May.

You have your own perception that people who vote SNP are basically stupid who don't understand what the modern world is about or how Scotland can become more successful in it, and instead cling to a romantic vision of the past.

In fact that description sounds more like you.

Is McConnell the first to receive an honour under the Mince for Honours affair?

#324, Mona.

Someone who has the same grasp of debating as you. Also, the same grasp of reality.

Woh! 2 coincidences. Can I find a 3rd related one?

Of course I can. Just make a point of posting irrelevancies.

321 Frank,
Aye she has, but very astute. Had they come out against the trams, I be clearer in my mind at least. Goldie seems ok but I dont know enough about the others, except one o them has a thin margin over the SNP in his seat.

328 Media, I refer you to my post at 261

254, The Braveheart tag, last vestige of unionist scoundral

My tuppence worth don't care really!! Bye Bye aye honours indeed, what a laugh!!

Interesting how the Scotsman has no story about the statue being unveiled in Sutherland to mark the clearances, after all the FIRST MINISTER is there! then again these old wounds are a wee bit painful for the unionist parties.

#330 carlo: hahaha! Now you are attempting to convince me (A scotsman) that there is NO anti English sentiment in Scotland.

You sir, are a wind up merchant! You have to be

#312 Zoom said: "if McConnelll still feels up for good whole-hearted political involvement, forming a pro-independence Scottish labour party would be an amazing and possibly infallible option."

Unfortunately it's already been tried - by Jim Sillars. His Scottish Labour Party crashed and burned pretty quickly.

It never cesases to amaze me how filled with hate and bile many SNP supporters here are. And it's all so childish: McConnell wasn't the most charismatic politician around but continually referring to him as 'Joke' ceased to be mildly amusing a long time ago. And whenever the subject of Wendy Alexander comes up they spew out all their pathetic jibes about the size of her lips or the fact - they really are neanderthals - that she's actually a woman. Strikes me she's a pretty intelligent woman who may do what's needed to reform the Scottish Labour Party - it certainly needs it.

So, you knuckle-dragging SNP drones: don't be so sure Salmond will do so well against her. It's probably academic anyway because the way the polls are going, Brown is going to trounce Cameron and win the next general election handsomely and the labour voters of Scotland, with Iraq a distant memory, will return to the fold at the next Scottish election as well. The SNP's tiny majority will vanish as quickly as it came.

#332, Miss H.

Media 1 came back to work at the election, in Edinburgh. He told us this before and during the election.

Please check his posts. Do you find them very familiar in content, style and approach with "ones" we are more familiar with?

339. A lot of my friends are scots, their take on this is " let sleeping dogs lie"

Well, it didn`t take long for the supposed Scots to vent their rage and frustration at being denied a large majority in the Parliament. Why oh why must there be so much bile and hatred spewn out by these so called Scots? You won the election, alright Salmond and that wee scunner Sturgeon threw away the large majority you were expecting. That was in no small way thanks to Tony Blair. Now you vent your frustration in the wrong place. Its wee Ecky and Nic you should be angry with. Wee Eck who holds down 2 jobs and salaries as well.

#339 Media1

I can wholeheartedly assure you that I am not trying to convince you of anything.....I merely ask you produce the source of your evidence for the

"There is no getting away from the fact that anti English sentiment is a major factor in a move toward independence. To deny it as such would be absolutely ludicrous, we all know the levels of depravity some Scots reach when it comes to England.".......slur on the supporters of Scotlands self determinisation

If its your opinion, fine but trying to pass it off as fact is pathetic.....show everyone your source and I will apologise without hesitation

#340 Mac the Proud Scot

There have been a good few mentions of "Joke" in reference to Jack MacConnell. This is simply a convient, and arguably appropriate, play on words. It's hardly a crime. And certainly nothing compared to describing many SNP voters as "neanderrthals" or "knuckle-dragging SNP drones".

If "hate and bile" are to be attributed anywhere then it is to your comments.

As for Wendy Alexander. Despite your assertions, you are only the second person on this page of well 340 posts to mention her, or anyone else's, lips.

So keep your anger and frustration to yourself.

Ahoy! Ahoy! Wee Joke McCunnell in reality; wis merely a cowboy!
No relation to Rabbie!
Gled to see the back O' him!

Frank McBride,
see post at 340 what you think

341, why can't your bairns be pm of the uk,gordon brown did it, so did blair, two scots together, your bairns, have as much chance as every one else!

350 Mona,
Here's another we detail for you re G broon. He'll be the 1st PM to govern his party from the lords since Lord Aberdeen lost his commons seat in the 19th century

Carlo and Media 1

You are both right and wrong.

Media 1 is right that there are some depraved anti English Scots but Carlo is right that they do not vote SNP.

They don't vote full stop so they had no impact on the SNP being elected and will have no impact on Scotland progressing to independence.

Attributing the SNP vote to anti English thugst is like attributing the Conservative and Unionist vote to Orange thugs. I am sure a lot of Orange thugs think of themselves as unionists but that does not make them Conservatives. Do you see what I mean?

50
Scotland has been conned out of billions in oil revenues,The SNP claimed this was happening more than 30 years ago. Its been proven since by the McCrone report,and you can have no excuse for being unaware of this .
LABOUR CONNED SCOTLAND and thats a fact!
There can be few people more stupid than those who discover burglars in their house,they left the door open to let them in,and now want to give them a hand to load up the getaway van.
You will vote Labour till your dying day? The Labour Party was replaced by the New Labour Party and is right of centre. YOu canot vote Labour,it does not exist anymore !

YOu presume that the same personnel means its the same party.It has shifted so far to the right that it makes a fool of everybody who votes for it ,because in so doing they advertise to the world that they know absolutley zilch!

IN any case anybody who would say they would eternally support any party ,without knowing what that party will be is a complete and utter baffoon.
You are the opposite of the floating voter, and for some reason voting floater springs to mind!

#355 Miss H

Yes I can see where I'm correct....but you also said that I was wrong...!!!.....where????

Media1 made a statement which was was both assumptive and disguised as fact.....I have asked that they provide the source for this fact or to admit that it is opinion....does that make me wrong....?????

"Mr McConnell has used the time since he lost the premiership to Alex Salmond after May's election to hold a series of meetings with senior Labour figures in London. "

Orders fae London!

AM2 a busted flush

#340, Mac the Proud Scot.

Your analysis of the SLP is correct. Times, however, change.

At that time the LP was in a very healthy position in Scotland and it had almost 100% TU support.
It was as ruthless then as it is corrupt now and, was able to demonise, as traitors, those who joined the SLP. This they did very effectively.

Today, however, it's a different game. NuLabour is seen as being corrupt, it has very tenuous TU support, especially at grass roots and it has no leadership like Robin Cook or the young Gordon Brown. The SNP has also changed and is much more reflective of Scottish society.

Therefore, I believe that a new SLP would be a viable proposition if they could find the leadership. On this, I believe that Jack McConnell & Helena Kennedy among others could provide that catalyst, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

As far as the current NuLabour leadership is concerned, I don't believe anyone in SNP considers Wendy Alexander an idiot and, will give her the respect she is due, but some of NuLabour's front bench are not making it easy for her or, indeed at this time, Jack McConnell.

Having said all that, I would rather seeing them join the SNP until such times as we achieve Independence.

#358 The spook in Leith, Leith
You forgot the lack of support for Scottish fishermen, is seem to recall that Mconnell was quite happy to sit outside any eu negotiations and was equally non comital when the Scottish Fishermen were forced to give away the lucrative Langostine fishing rights, which will cost Scotland £ 18 million a year

#340 Mac the proud Scot

Says, you:
"labour voters of Scotland, with Iraq a distant memory, will return to the fold"

Well Mac, Iraq won't be a distant memory for a lot of people, and I for one have no intention of letting it become a distant memory. The Labour party supported it in Westminster and in Edinburgh Jack McConnel spoke up to support Blair, and his party voted with him. Some fold to return to.

WMD found = zero

People killed, check out this site:-

http://icasualties.org/oif/

http://www.ac.wwu.edu/~stephan/USfatalities.html graph

I repeat, the level of bile and hate spewed out by SNP supporters against the like of Alexander (both brother and sister) and McConnell here is a sad reflection on the general intellectual level of nationalists. That's not to say that there aren't intelligent nationalists, but it's a pity that so much of what passes for nationalist comment is so abusive, so anti-English (yes - note the poster who described them above as 'foreigners') and so plain deluded.

Not many of the people of Scotland, fortunately, get up in the morning thinking about independence, feeling deprived of their 'freedom' or their 'national birthright'. That's just baby politics. There are much more important things in the world than having a seat at the UN.

Brown will do well with Scottish voters, my SNP friends - you'll see!

364
Firstly well said.
There is a world of difference between being pro Scotland and anti English,and the SNP has never ever advocated this as you rightly recognise.
Our argument is with Westminster government and we are afforded the right through the ballot box to record our views.We can have no complaints.One thing that is crystal clear,whatever happens to Scotland we allowed it ,some of us even voted for it,so we have no right to feel ill toward our southern cousins who are only trying to get whats best for them. I am anti Westminster as much as its possible to be,but I'm living with a Mersey-sider,as are many supporters of independence.The Unionists play the racist card because its the only card they hold!
When they understand that in supporting the UK they are British nationalists and everybody lives in a nation and is therefore a nationalist and internationalism is just a kind of plural of nationalism,it quite literally means bewteen nations ,and the exchange culturally (or otherwise) which ensues.
They should recogognise Scotland faced extermination in 1707 unless she agreed to the Act of Union (troops were camped at Carlisle with orders to put us to the sword should we reach the "wrong decision").This is not taught in our schools of course!
Those same MPS who went to London (with no authority) voted in 1711 to end the Union (but the vote was taken by the entire parliament and lost).
There have been at least twenty attempts to return home rule to Scotland.The economics of the last thirty years are so much in our favour, you have to question the motives of supporters of the Union. NObody has given a sound reason yet. Nor can they.

Since when was being Scottish racist? If theres a charge to be answered its by those who would seek to deny Scotland the right to self determination.

#374 Mac

What did you think of Dennis McShane MP's description of Angus McNeill as a "highly sectarian nationalist"?

#374

Agreed, it is reprehensible to bring any form of personal abuse into the political argument....you where doing so well too....until you mentioned the "nuckle-dragging SNP drones" a bit earlier....so enough of you pompous sounding nonsense....

Both the Alexanders are fair game for political slagging...

First off.... Douglas Alexander is a typical career politician no original thought has ever bothered to disturb the area between his ears...he's a clerk (apologies to clerks!!) and a failed administrator (see Scotlands polling fiasco 4th May 2007)

Secondly...Wendy!!...dear dear oh dear .....did you actually hear the "Squiggly Worm " political anology speech in Holyrood......!!!!!

If this is the standard of the opposition to Salmond and the SNP during the Westminister elections.......then...It really is time...roll on the Election....they will be fought on the previous performance of Labour in Scotland......like taking sweets from a baby.....!!!!

363

Well maybe I didn't phrase that very well.

What I meant was the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Yes there are anti English Scots but no they are not pro independence.

Independence is the very last thing that anti English bigits want. Who would they blame then?

#374, Mac the Proud Scot.

If you don't realise that you are being as abusive, and it could be construed, more so, than those you are attacking, you should re-read your own post.

When people have attempted to reply to you, in what you consider, an intelligent manner, chosing, rather to accuse people of, it would appear, the first insult that comes to mind.

In future, I will refrain from deigning you with a reply.

One thing that has been overlooked and is a reflection of how much London considers Scotland
MI5 knew about 2 weeks in advance of the terrorist attack on Glasgow airport, did they warn Strathclyde Police, did they stuff! Did they warn the Scottish Government..nope, did they warn anyone in Scotland...nope
They did however warn the US dept of Homeland security 2 weeks prior to the attack as a result the US dept of Homeland security placed additional sky marshals on flights to Glasgow
Hopefully the Scottish Government will take Westminster to task about this little matter when we are talking about full cooperation and 'working together' to fight terrorism

#328 Media 1,

There is not going to be any referendum. Not now and probably not until a long time has passed. Competence is the goal of the S.N.P.

They need to convince the Scottish electorate of their ability to govern first.

As the greatest fear in the S.N.P camp is not losing a referendum. But winning the referendum and then being dumped in favor of the other now non-union Conservative and Labour parties.

I'll give a salient example from history. A charismatic, orator who led his nation in time of war then at the zenith of his political career he and his party were derisively rejected by the British people

Winston Churchill in 1945 is the fate that could befall Mr Alec salmond...... And he knows it...And fears it

AM2, Glasgow / 11:51am 21 Jul 2007
‘I have no interest in your conspiratorial delusions. I could invest half a lifetime trying to debunk your nonsense, but you still wouldn't have a clue.’

AM2, for someone who has stated they have no interest in my so called ‘conspiratorial delusions’, which should really read analysis on unusually coincidental events, you seem to have an obsessive wish in answering them, although with nothing remotely close to a logical explanation, they hardly warrant being called answered. Now however, as I have pointed out the conflict between your statement ‘I have no interest in your conspiratorial delusions’ and your actions, I guess you will feel obliged not to answer this post, though surely wouldn’t that be me so easily diagnosing the mind and actions of someone who said they could debunk my so called nonsense, and I still wouldn’t have a clue. Hold on though if you do answer this post wouldn’t you be again showing an interest in my so called ‘conspiratorial delusions’, look there’s me second guessing your actions again. If you can work out which of these courses of action doesn’t conflict with the way you have portrayed yourself, then you will also realize the only method you have to answering my questions on the unusually coincidental events is to try and ‘debunk’ them.

#382 should read "decisively"

332 Miss H

"328

You don't actually live in Scotland do you?

You have no understanding of what the SNP is about or why people voted SNP in May"

Was that what Eck said to Sir Sean?

Can I cut this out and keep it to show all the SNP supporters on this site from England, Ireland Spain, America, Canada, China, etc etc (including the good 'doctor' from Finland)?

Better still, why don't you do it yourself. It would be nice to see an even-handed SNP supporter for a change

#374

How on earth is describing someone as a foreigner equivalent to being against (anti) him or her. Some of my best friends are foreigners (of both the English and non-English variety). All your post reveals is your own small minded prejudice.

Jack McConnell might not be a bad human being and I'm sure he basically had Scotland's best interests at heart. However, being a unionist party representative his every word and policy is controlled from afar by those with an agenda in which the primary concern is not Scotland's welfare.
This bowing to the will of Westminster is why (in my opinion) some Scottish nationalists regard unionist MSPs as less than patriotic and the main reason why I'll personally never vote for a Westminster party again.

376
Its a good question,but what we should be doing is asking what the he** are the BBC playing at publishing this sh*t.
They are guilty by association.They edit the program and are reponsible for its content!
That should NEVER have been allowed to be broadcast. There was not even an apology. I would think a legal challenge to the impariality of the BBC is well in orrder.They operate outwith the terms of their licence if they show bias surely!
Allowing this is biased AND THEN SOME!

374 Mac the Proud Scot
What bile and hatred are you talking about ??

I think your slightly deluded when it comes to the effectiveness of certain Labour politician in Scotland. Jack McConnell was useless and thats a fact! He did NOT stand up for Scotland at any time, he only marked time and played out whatever he was told to do by Westminster and Tony Blair.
As to racism, try this one for size. I have a family member, who graduated full honours, went for a job in London, they didnt get the job, not because they were not qualified, but purely because they were Scottish!. The HR manager stated that he didnt understand Scottish higher education qualifications. An English freind later found out that the company doesnt have any Scots what so ever.
So dont tell me or any others on this forum that Scots are racist against the English, they have got a long way to go before they catch up with the out and out racism, both direct and indirect that is prevelant in England

386
"How on earth is describing someone as a foreigner equivalent to being against (anti) him or her. Some of my best friends are foreigners (of both the English and non-English variety). All your post reveals is your own small minded prejudice"

Best laugh of the day. Accusing someone else of prejudice after you yourself call English people (same nationality on an English person's passport as on a Scot's)'foreigners.'

Second best laugh of the day? You actually use the 'Some of my best friends' line

Third best laugh of the day? The way you separate 'foreigners' into 'English' and 'non-English'

You're like the waitress in the 'Blues Brothers' - 'Music? We play BOTH types - country AND western'

391 Meths

No, that's nowhere near MY best shot - but I rather suspect you just failed to land yours

390 Edward

How dreadful. You must name and shame this awful company at once. What happened when your friend took it to the CRE? Why haven't we heard about this in the press?

Or did you just make it up the same way as your post at 381?

378
Im fairly confident that it is correct that troops were camped at Carlisle and awaited the signal to invade should the vote taken in Edinburgh be other than to close the Parliament and join Westminster.Even so nearly 60 or so Mps voted against !
This has never been taught in Scotlands schools.Why is the question. Its historically correct as far as I am aware .
The Act of Union consulted no one,and the people rioted in Edinburgh when the news broke. It was against the wishes of the people !
The creation of the United Kingdom has very shaky foundations indeed!
IT has been well suppressed of course (for obvious reasons),but it is apparently correct.

396 zoomer

"If you're a Scot, an English person is a foreigner, just as a Scot is a foreigner to an English person."

You are in the running for nutjob post of the week with that one. But I warn you, bobo, edward and the spook are tough competition.

Why should we reward incompetence?

In English law, if you are not covered by English law then you are foreign, and this means by English law the English have no choice but to class those living in Scotland as foreign.

They just simply couldnt have picked a better heid the baww for the job!

With wee dougie in the cabinet. Jobs a goodun!

Well done also, to the SNP on what surely should be fantastic news for them..

# 18 well said!

A career politicain. Who's mantra is power,power,power

Zoomer., #396.
'If you're a Scot, an English person is a foreigner, just as a Scot is a foreigner to an English person.'

What are you talking about, I am an SNP supporter and a very proud Scot, so I will remind you of an expression, 'We're aw Jock Tamson's Bairns', this is one of those Scottish expression which explains that why we treat everyone the same, as equals, yes and that means the English. It is only those who treat us badly we don't have time for, and yes many English people have treated us poor, and we hate them. It is true in Law the English see us as being foreign, but if they think that way in private, well that is up to them.

#13 - it should read sharpest knife. She has burried quite a few in a fair number of backs on her accendency.

As wendy is a person with no real life experience , then you have to view the above as using the tools closest at hand.

Thought this article was about macsomething standind down , retaining msp status and joining zebedee foulkes, pyro watson on double pay in the Holyrood playstation

354, I like to think i'm good at my job, but that does not mean I do not think people less fortunate than myself do not deserve help, they do!

397 scotleag
Sorry to rain on your parade but nothing is made up
As I understand it the case is going ro the CRE
As for my posting at 381 that is also true, presume you just havent read anything.
Suggest reading http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/06/us-warned-of-...
and
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007...

Zoom., #411.
I feel sorry for you Zoom, I have An English Mother and a Scottish Father. Tell me which one of these I should call foreign?

414 Andrew

I have a Scottish mother and an Irish father.

I have never found it necessary to call either of them foreign!

373 Jim P-Saddam Hussein used his WMD to slaughter Kurdish men women and children. He also invaded,without any provocation,the sovereign nation of Kuwait. The resulting war caused the deaths of thousands of innocents in the middle east. The man was a dangerous fanatic who would have kept and used WMD had it not been for the intervention of the West.The Iraq War was,I agree on balance, a mistake but many British people including Jack McConnel supported Tony Blair in good faith and given the info available at that time. Your assessment is one sided.

Miss H., #416.
My point exactly.

374

Sadly Mac the Scot both Alexanders are regarded as figures of fun.

You just had to read the comments after the 'Alexander the Great' piece. You can't put that down to the SNP.

They are figures of fun because they are ridiculous.

If you are honest you will admit that is true.

AM2, Glasgow / 11:51am 21 Jul 2007
‘I have no interest in your conspiratorial delusions. I could invest half a lifetime trying to debunk your nonsense, but you still wouldn't have a clue.’

AM2, for someone who has stated they have no interest in my so called ‘conspiratorial delusions’, which should really read analysis on unusually coincidental events, you seem to have an obsessive wish in answering them, although with nothing remotely close to a logical explanation, they hardly warrant being called answered. Now however, as I have pointed out the conflict between your statement ‘I have no interest in your conspiratorial delusions’ and your actions, I guess you will feel obliged not to answer this post, though surely wouldn’t that be me so easily diagnosing the mind and actions of someone who said they could debunk my so called nonsense, and I still wouldn’t have a clue. Hold on though if you do answer this post wouldn’t you be again showing an interest in my so called ‘conspiratorial delusions’, look there’s me second guessing your actions again. If you can work out which of these courses of action doesn’t conflict with the way you have portrayed yourself, then you will also realize the only method you have to answering my questions on the unusually coincidental events is to try and ‘debunk’ them.

385

There are indeed quite a lot of romantic nationalists overseas who do not have a clue about modern Scotland. They are stuck with the heather and haggis Braveheart image when they think of the SNP or independence.

The same is true of Media 1. The SNP campaign was modern, highly professional and miles ahead of Labour's. Labour were the ones playing Highland Cathedral on their PPBs and waving Saltires every chance they got - because they made the fundamental mistake of believing that people who either do, or are inclined to, vote SNP are into all that guff.

We are not.

"McConnell just weeks from stepping down"

I never liked the guy, and never realised either he had 'stepped up' in the first place.

397

Hoist by your own petard I am afraid - you cannot take dicrinination on the basis that you are Scottish in England to the CRE. People have tried and failed. Irish people can do it - Scots can't.

AM2 wont be back......que a quick name change....!!!

422 Miss H-some of them ARE into all that guff and curiously some of them dont support independence. There is no monolith of opinion or indeed anything that identifies the"typical" SNP voter.

#417 Geoff, South Africa

Says you:
"The man was a dangerous fanatic who would have kept and used WMD had it not been for the intervention of the West"

Your statement is somewhat disingenuous. The man would not have had WMD had it not been for the West supplying the materials and arming his regime.

Who is shaking hands with the devil?

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

Good Evening Scotleag....and like minded supporters

In the run up to the election in May I had hours of fun asking supporters of the union to describe a single example of the 'Union Dividend' for Scotland.

I think I'll try again.....Name one, just one single example of Scotland and Scotland alone! benefiting from from the union in the past 50 years (1950 onwards)....no I didn't think so........sweeties from a baby!!!!

As the old joke goes,

Are Labour into necrophilia, flagellation and beastiality? They do appear to be flogging a dead horse.

#425 Miss H

From the CRE website, the position in Scotland.

"In 2001 the Scottish Court of Session ruled in the case of BBC v Souster that the English and the Scots do have separate national origins and that the Race Relations Act does apply to discrimination between the Scots and the English."

http://www.cre.gov.uk/Default.aspx.LocID-0hgnew0fk.RefLoc...

For Labour voters I shall explain. Blair tell McConnell what to do to keep us down, Broon tells Alexander what to do to keep us down.

It doesn't work any more.

#429 Carlo, Fort William

Along similar lines, my question has been "How is the 300th anniversary of the Union being celebrated in Scotland?"

#417, Geoff.

I think you will find that Saddam was put in power by the West. You will also find that his WMD were donated by the West as it was using him as a surrogate against Iran.

The attrocities committed by Saddam were tacitly condoned by the West.

Yes. The good, free DEMOCRATIC West has a great deal to answer for.

428 Jim P-the world is a complex web. The point is that no matter from where the materials originated , it was the man Hussein that gassed the Kurds in response to their opposition to him and their quest for self rule. No matter what you may think of TB,he wouldnt drop anthrax on Edinburgh!

#436 Geoff

"No matter what you may think of TB,he wouldnt drop anthrax on Edinburgh!"

Are you saying that his humanity has boundaries? He seemed to think that perpetrating "shock and awe" on Iraqi cities was acceptable.

"261. pehman, sussex / 2:59pm 23 Jul 2007 254,

The Braveheart tag, last vestige of unionist scoundral"

Tut, tut pehman - read the second part of my post - I did say that the SNP had moved well away from such notions - but that you would always get some sort of Braveheart voters - like you will always get people who vote Labour even if it were a monkey in a suit up for election.

see ya ye wee toedy

"264. pehman, sussex / 3:03pm 23 Jul 2007 260,

Does that mean you've now made up your mind. and you'll change your tag to Federalist"

I'll keep it as it is for now - seems to avoid me being tagged as a nat by the unionists and as a unionist by the nats.

Phew, there's an awful lot of weird SNP stuff going on here tonight! I wonder what Salmond and the SNP hierarchy would make of the idea that English people are 'foreigners'? If asked, of course, they would hotly deny it since it wouldn't go down too well with the thousands of English people living, working and running businesses in Scotland, or the thousands of Scots who are married to English people. But I suspect that what we're seeing here is the true and rather disgusting underbelly of nationalism, that is kept well hidden by the SNP powers-that-be but can't help leaking out now and again. Zenophobia lives! English people are English and British, just as we are Scottish and British - but the infantilism that is Scottish Nationalism just can't stomach that because it doesn't accord with its need to divide people up into neat, separate nationalities. Thankfully, most Scots are too mature to fall for such nonsense.

268. Zoom / 3:08pm 23 Jul 2007 #229

#235

It's not a red herring. The Irish don't have this problem. They are recognised instantly and understood for what they are. I've never ever heard the Irish being confused with the English. But I've heard Scots being described as English hundreds of times. And I've lost count of the amount of times I've seen Britain represented as England in foreign media."

Bad example - the unionist in Northern Ireland - or Britain as they prefer do not for one minute like to be confused for being Irish - yet they are.

438 Not A uni or a nat,

Thought youd gone off in the huff, Ok yes I saw the red rag and charged. Fair enough ?

440, but it's a f8cking task typing it out each time

Wisnae in a huff - the wife had me doing some painting . . .

:(

441 mac, why not ask the thousands of English in the SNP.

For myself here in sussex I do think of myself as a foreigner abroad, and conduct myself accordingly

Where the great defender, AM2?

445 Should have told her you were in a huff

#309, I wish people would stop using Wikapedia to back up their arguments. Wikapedia articles can be written by anyone who has an internet connection, because it's on wikapedia doesnt make it fact. My point was that 'Britain' is the term used for the island, 'Great Britain' is a political entity.

#436, Geoff.

Perhaps you would like to answer #434.

447 Frank,
good question, should we send the polis round to see if he deid

Sorry that should be -to see if he's unwell

#441 Mac the Proud Scot

"Thankfully, most Scots are too mature to fall for such nonsense."

Much like your "knuckle dragging SNP drones" quote from earlier then.....

Pot, Kettle, Black......don't you remember what you say....??????

#449 I agree - fine if wiki gives you links to other articles to check or for info that is completely agreed on - using wiki for issues of contention is asking for trouble.

The labour party had the militant tendency. The conservative party had the Anti-European wing. The S.N.P have a 'RACIST' minority and until they
are. First isolated and then removed they are a 'GIFT' to the opponents of the S.N.P.

And will cause just as much damage to the S.N.P as the aforementioned created to their respective political party's.

437 Jim P-I agree with you-shock and awe was,as is all war,evil and relatively indiscriminate. The American bomber pilot who eats apple pie and goes to church of a Sunday is in theory, every bit as barbaric as the Islamists who cause such dreadful carnage in the streets of Baghdad. And yet do you really equate the deeds and motives of Tony Blair and the UK with those of Saddam and his regime? Its like George Galloway grovelling and saluting at the feet of Saddam Hussein whilst slating everything that Blair and the British government have done. There seems to be no evenhandedness-you are too quick to excuse people like Hussein and treat your own countrymen harshly. Dare I say "What happened to my Country Right or Wrong?" And I know you 'll have something to say about the "My Country"bit, but remeber Scots,out of all proportion to their numbers were amongst the people who took the decision to go to war.

#434 frank mcbride

"Yes. The good, free DEMOCRATIC West has a great deal to answer for."

Kept you safe in your bed 'Frank mcbride'

450 Frank-see 456. How would you have treated Saddam Hussein?

Haven't we strayed from the subject? Jack not such a bad lad. I wish him well for the future.
457-Donal. Exactly. Well said!

If Ms Alexander ever becomes the Dominatrix in Scottish Labour, she will be canonised by Broon, a feat which will overshadow Bolairis and his peerages, oh,oh. oh, oh.

Oh Wendy, saint

Oh Weny's ain't
Goin' marchin' in

donald McDonald 455,
These groups in those parties were organised with chairmen and regular meetings.

You surely cannot think a few nutters are organised- No party is exempt from nutters, look at wendy and she's been promoted

#455 I would have to disagree - you will find racists in all parties.

If anything the SNP's extremists are not racists but the fundamentalists - those who reject Salmond's progressive route to independence - and the same group of people who expelled him and other members of the 79 group. They - and correct me if I am wrong SNP folk - are now not the force they were - in some ways Salmond (first time round and now) and Swinney have dealt with the fundies just as Labour dealt with Militant.

Sorry.
Oh Wendy'th ain't

"448. pehman, sussex / 8:08pm 23 Jul 2007 445

Should have told her you were in a huff"

Aye right - but I'd like to keep my knackers . . .

#457, Donald, 459, Geoff.

If you find it acceptable the the "Democratic" West can give WMD, not for safekeeping I may add, to a Dictator that they put in place and supported, so that he could act as a surrogate and, use these WMDs as he saw fit, then you have a very serious problem with morals and ethics.

Before, during and after the Iran/Iraq War theWest tacitly approved his actions. After Iraq War1, they continued to give tacit approval for his actions.

What would I have done? I would have taken him out in'81, or indeed before or, better still he should never have been installed in the first place.

#456 Geoff

Says you:
"you are too quick to excuse people like Hussein"

I didn't and won't excuse any such person.

"Scots,out of all proportion to their numbers were amongst the people who took the decision to go to war." I was among the people demonstrating in Aberdeen and Edinburgh, with tens of thousands of other Scots, saying "not in our name".

463, I was at that meeting in the dam park pavillion in Ayr when the 79 grp were banned.
I was a member myself, but chose instead to remain in the SNP, giving up my 79 grp membership.
Had a blazing row with Kenny, who took it very hard.
It was all part and parcel of the SNP comming of age. Nothing to do with extremist, more of a right left thing, moving on from the old conservitive era

Labour is wanting a Wendy of Math Dethruction

Jim P-many English,Welsh and Irish people also said and say-not in our name.
Frank-you would have "taken him out in 81" That is the main point though isn't it-that he needed to be "taken out"

Thelf Destuction has never been done before, I am led to believe.

Not a uni or a nat, were you active in 79 ?

#471, Geoff.

The point is the West should never have put him in, are him to the teeth and tacitly condoned his attrocities.

Hmmmm.....good to see that at least some SNP supporters recognise that racist snp supporters exist. Trouble is, it's not about a small faction that has been expelled from the party, it's about a significant minority of Scots who are casually racist about the English and probably vote SNP when they can be bothered to go to the polling station. Sure, Labour probably attracts some of them as well, but from the impression given on message boards like this one, you would have to conclude that much of this casual racism is an SNP phenomenon. It stems from the main problem with nationalism as a political philosophy - that to justify independence you have to keep stressing how different you are from others, especially the English. The fact is, of course, that that's largely an illusion. And most Scots know it.

Threnght in depth and definately not a one man band. New Scottish Labour.

Taking you back to what devolution for Scotland was meant to be, or else.

#474

2nd. line, "are" should read, "armed".

Sorry. Or elth

AM2.

Good evening.

I think you would like to make some comment, on the Cameron thread.

475 Mac the nut,
79 grp were / are not racists, read my post at 468

As for your anti English jibes Read the daily retard the mouth piece of the labour party in Scotland, see who incites these halfwits

"473. pehman, sussex / 9:09pm 23 Jul 2007

Not a uni or a nat, were you active in 79 ?"

I was a wee bit too young - had just started at St John's in Dundee. I didn't become active politically until 1987 - was involved in student politics - Scottish Labour Students until I left the Labour Party in 1994 - when Blair was elected. Was a member of Scottish Labour Action during that period - ironically one of the people I got on best with was a staunch unionist - Jim Murphy - now the MP for Eastwood.

I suppose what I liked about him was he was honest about what he believed in and listened to your point of view. The ironic thing was that we had originally stood against each other on a Labour NUS slate and both got selected. I might not always have agreed with his politics but he was one of the hardest working people I have had the pleasure of meeting.

Mac the Nut or is it Arthur, what do you think of your post @ 244 yesterday

483 No my point in asking was that if you were and were at the count in the caird hall that night.

No one could believe the size of the tory vote that came out of Beechwood. BEECHWOOD If the tories had been on the ball they could have picked up 2 seats in the district elections later

Mac the proud Scot - what a twerp. Somone who thinks calling a person foreign is somehow insulting. My best pal is from London - he's lived here for ten years. He is a foreigner living in Scotland the same as I was when I lived in England and in other countries outside Scotland. He thinks of himself as foreign. he loves Scotland and loves England too. Why the hell would he want to think he's the same as me or I the same as him. We're not - we're happy to be foreigners to each other and great pals too.

My English neighbour told me last week that after living here for eight years she still feels like a foreigner.

You know only someone full of British nationalist ideology would think calling soemone foreign was a bad thing. Prinicpally because in the BN view of the world foreign is a synonym for inferior. It is in fact an entirely value neutral word - meaning if you're too stupid to understand the concept that it is neither good nor bad.

455

The SNP has never ever been a racist party,and is opposed to any discrimination on grounds of creed colour religion tribalism and anything else you can think of.There are people who show great intolerance possibly even hatred toward the people of a neighbouring country.I can assure you any such view is not acceptable to the SNP and anyone who shamed the party would be removed.

There is a big difference between a card carrying member and someone who claims to support a particular party of course,and the SNP are NOT responsible for any racist idiot who makes any such claim, nor is any party, unless they are a member. If you have proof against a member you should of course complain about it,but please be aware ,because someone claims they are a supporter of Scottish independence ,it does NOT automatically mean that they are a card carrying member of the SNP (or any party for that matter).
I am not disagreeing with you,merely making the point that the SNP also has zero tolerance of these people who as you rightly point out will do nothing for the SNP and should not be tolerated anyway.

How can someone claim to be "a proud Scot", but say that they are are not nationalistic?

Surely an oxymoron?

AM2 & Not a uni or a nat.

Required on the Cameron thread.

Thank crunchy. We won't miss him.

“anti-Scottishness” at the BBC." Shouldn't that be "anti- competition?"

#492, AM2.

You ARE a wizard! You can turn base metal into gold!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are you A 2nd Merlin come to save the Land?

I'm voting Labour Next time!

SNP a bunch of liers!

"we can Save the Queen margert Hospital" Load of crap

there been lieing form DAY 1, so this new leader well make me Vote labour even MORE!

492 AM2, 1-5 Ok your entitled to your opinion, But FFS

6. I have no reason to think that there was any attempt to pervert democracy or influence the election.
50 Co,s asked none said they supported Independence, DURING AN ELECTION CAMPAIGN. only you could think that wasn't meant to sway opinion.

9. It seems as though an army of SNP supporters is now firing off complaints to all sorts of people about all sorts of things. { yes and why not, if wrong is being done then it's everyones right to complain}

The party has two full time spin doctors in Edinburgh. { thats seven less than labour had}

I’ve recently detected signs of interviewers being wary of and even sycophantic towards SNP politicians. { yes I've noticed a wee change for the better myself}
If the media is being manipulated, recent history suggests that it will backfire spectacularly in due course. {AND IF THE MEDIA ARE NOT BEING MANIPULATED WE WONT

I'm Sorry, for being Disyicjk!

No; I'm old enough to vote! I;m Not an arse

Vote For the SNP But there will out of there back ears next elcetion as

first minster ELECT alex, will have a no spoiled papers to help him win seats! next time!

well done you can understand me!

SNP have been lying, a bout a number of things

AM2 492, YOUR POST

8. Pete Wishart’s calculated reference to the “BBC in London” and comment about there being a “problem with the London media's attitude” are to my mind disgraceful. The SNP uses the words “Westminster” and “London” euphemistically, on occasions where to say “England” or “UK” might be construed as revealing a racial motive. I just searched for other examples from their website: “London parties cannot be trusted”, “Negative, Extreme & London Based”, “Betrayed by London Tories” etc. I even found “Chancellor Bought And Sold For London Gold”. It’s a rhetorical device to associate London and England in people’s minds with grievances

OK so now you've made it clear-- but then you come up with this

am2 @507
Your contention is totally ludicrous. Being “anti-” a government isn’t the same as being “anti-” the country that elected it!

Hole digging lessons required AM

Why don;t you take you stuffy views and go else where

its people like you that Scotland NEED less of!

You must be very sad to still post, post about someone else spelling!

511 623,
Look none of us SNP supporters wants to see a hospital closed,
we've only just managed to save two A&E depts from closure.
What you have to remember 623 is that the closure was put into effect by the old labour crowd,
and this time sorry we were not able to prevent this one

but the election the snp said

" we can stop the A&E department shutting down"

and also stop the PFI happening at Kirkcaldy, with in days of winning there changed the statement!

and the local papers and got Quotes of this in there last edition

#517

Classic!

The best thing about this atricle is the picture - which shows this man was even hated by native americans.

519 -623,

AND KIRKCALDY IS IN WHOSE CONSTITUENCY

Interesting.

So, as long as I preface racist stereotypes with "straight from central casting", or phrase insults "satirically", anything is fair game?

You haven't been posting as Barry Donald Scarfe, by any chance?

526 Jimbo,
not only as him, but also mac the nut

Question - What if joke now desides to join the SNP ? yes or no ?

#530

was that scottish labour?

623

Yes

The Scotland's oil debate for me is pointless - the debate over independence should be about the politics and social aspects not just economics.