I personally believe in tolerance, but I do think we've got too many immigrants coming into this country.
I don't mind minorities when they ARE minorities, but when they start becoming the majority, you've got problems.

Richardinho - how nice that you believe in tolerance.
But Muslims don't.
How many churches are there in Saudi Arabia?

(Answer-none-forbidden by law)

I don't think I want to be in Europe when it becomes Eurostan.

would love to see a poll of all European countries asking one question..........due to the influx of muslim immigrants, do you believe your country & culture has changed in the past 10yrs?

would be interesting....

#3--Michael Leonard---point well made...

#3--Michael Leonard---report today, we the US tax-payers are funding Saudi-Madrassa's in this country....that will change, & soon.......

Your fears are the precursor to hysteria which would lead to genocide and fascism if it isn't chalenged.

History is littered with this type of stuff. The demonisation of Judaism in Eastern Europe in the late 19th century, an example which provided the base for the rise of fascism.

What is your problem?

Why do you cower behind your sofas biting your nails at the impending doom that awaits you?

This is scaremongering.

Number 3 - You are blowing it out of your bum again. The worst kind of intolerance is ignorance and of that you have plenty.

You Rednecks glory in these threats from African Americans to Hispanics to McCarthyism. All bogeymen who haunt your very existence and ensure the supremacy of your race and rancid right wing Christianity.

I don't need any lessons from you about Islam, Michael, thankyou very much.

This is the 1st intelligent comment I have heard coming from the Vatican since the new pope took over.

They don't have to have a majority, they just have to have the guns.

8. Leon, Hong Kong / 1:41am

morning Leon
the Scotmans number one Racism and Islamophobia
expert Westophobic and Islam useful Idiot
cum shrink

just thought you would like to know the the Muslim community have just applied to build a new mosque in London to hold 12000 people nothing wrong with that its 4 times more than any christian church in the city and all paid for by their pals in Saudi Arabia
and you know what its a crimminal offence to be Christian Saudi Yes christians in Saudi have nothing to fear!

have a nice day!

Richardinho - tolerant of people who drive burning cars into airport buildings, intolerant of people who tell him things about Islam he doesn't know, thank you very much.

12,000 Eh!

Good god that must be keeping all you Islamophobes awake at night that these people might, just might want to practice their religion in peace. Worship their god in the accustomed manner. And bring their children up in a manner that they think befits their beliefs.

What a crime Eh!

As usual people are blowing out their bum in quoting other nonsensical posts which are, just basically gibberish.

A criminal offense to be a Christian in Saudi??
Wake up numpty.

the Scotmans number one Racism and Islamophobia
expert Westophobic and Islam useful Idiot
cum shrink

Good god that must be keeping all you Islamophobes awake at night that these people might, just might want to practice their religion in peace. Worship their god in the accustomed manner. And bring their children up in a manner that they think befits their beliefs.

how can that be keeping me awake ?you called me islamophobic last week the only anounced the mosque yesterday. try again!

yeah sure! just like the Christians Southern Sudan
peaceful Christians slaughtered by extremists that you support of course they are not invaders they have no western backing whats their crime against the religion of peace and tolerance?

IF it isnt christianity what is it Sport?
are you saying christainty is permitted in Saudi?

As usual people are blowing out their bum in quoting other nonsensical posts which are, just basically gibberish.

Ive already acknowleged your Know all credential!!

you seen to be hung up on peoples bum you have a problem of some kind? suggest you seek help

A criminal offense to be a Christian in Saudi??
Wake up numpty.

can you give me the address of the nearest church
you know?

go back to sleep you useful idiot!

There is no freedom of religion in Saudi Arabia. Islam is the official religion and all citizens must be Muslims. Despite the fact that there are about 7 million foreign workers in Saudi Arabia the government prohibits the public practice of other religions. Proselytizing is not permitted. The government recognizes the right of non-muslims to private worship but in practice if they are caught they are in trouble. Non-Muslim worshippers risk arrest, imprisonment, lashing, deportation and torture. Distributing bibles is illegal and non-Muslims must not wear religious symbols of any kind and can result in the punishments mentioned above.

No offense but I think you’re all being WAY too easy on Leon. He is a Muslim - right? :-)

Curse Ollie and may the joke be upon him.

Pax Vobiscum – except to Leon of course.

Irony is alive and well - the Roman Catholic Church preaching about violence from practitioners of any other religion.

Maybe they'd be better occupied putting their own house in order first?

A small matter of some ten thousand children in the US alone abused by paedophile priests in sustained attacks over decades which they condoned?

In the UK, there are upwards of 47,000 Christian churches, and about 1,700 mosques.
Hardly a takeover.

But don't let's let facts get in the way of a good rant.

All you folk screaming about lack of religious freedom in Saudi - are you suggesting the UK adopts their model as the way forward?

#22 nell
I know this is beyond your ability to comprehend - so let me spell it out for you. The Catholic Church is guilty of everything you say and so much more but –here comes the point nell – it does NOT exempt them from making a cogent observation, which they have in this case.

Not a big fan of religion, organised or otherwise, but it's about time that more authoratative figures started to stand up and say, enough is enough.

10 out of 10 for the Catholic Church on this one. Keep it up.

22. nell from falkirk

you did`nt answer the last time Nell
a man called Muhammed took took a girl Ayisha
for a wife 9 years old and consumated the marriage
is he a paedophile? you have no problems paedophile priests how about paedophile muslims
or am I picking ethnic minority?
how about some honesty?

Piggy backing on #26 – what an appropriate phrase if I do say so myself.

nell before you suggest that this no longer happens in the world of Islam be aware that one of the first things the Ayatollah Khomeini did on his return to Iran was make marriage to a nine year old legal again.

#8-Leon-"Why do you cower behind your sofas biting your nails at the impending doom that awaits you?" What makes you think we're cowering? BTW- There's only so much tolerance & threats people will take.

#10-gibber-And he will be highly criticized for saying it. I'm surprised there's no rioting yet over the comment.

nell from falkirk has probably got a shirley valentine thing going out with some waiter near her concrete hellhole in Turkey so is self-appointed expert on the "Religion of Peace" (TM)

Please be patient nell will return and address all your questions as soon as she’s finished mopping the floors at the local Mosque.
Thank You.

#23-nell- How many of those 1700 are teaching their young worshippers "jihad"? How many of those 47000 churches are teaching their worshippers "jihad"? Seems like the UK has 1700 mosques too many.

#27-dolivaw-Ever notice leon & nell (& their ilks) dont comment on stories involving muslims gang raping & then "honor killing" women?

Looks like I would get an honest answer Nell!
not surprising really lack of honesty?dont worry though you are a good "useful idiot"

The American Society for the Furtherance of Tolerance and Understanding out in force today I see.

Oder #26 Any normal person condemns paedophiles in whatever guise, shade or colour they come. A child abuser of whatever stamp has placed himself (or herself) outwith society. The Roman Catholic Church has condoned paedophilia in its priests for decades.

Now, presumably in the hope that people will stop examining their record too closely, the current Roman Catholic oligarchy appear to be actively trying to cause conflict, in a world that desperately needs peacemakers.

They seem to forget that they are supposed to be following the teachings of Jesus Christ; would He have been condemning whole peoples, I wonder, or would He have still been trying to teach tolerance and love?

And it's not just Muslims they're condemning either - the Lenten message from Cardinal Giacomo Biffi, former Archbishop of Bologna, said "The Antichrist presents himself today as pacifist, ecologist and ecumenist".

Which ironically seems to me to be a perfect description of Jesus.

tell me Muhammed was or was not paedophile

your attempt to side step the qestion shows you up for what you really are" two faced" sorry if it offends you

40 years ago in the UK, gay people could be imprisoned for life for being gay. (There was a programme on it the other night.) At the same time, the USA still ran apartheid systems with blacks as second class citizens.

So let's not get too smug about how much more enlightened we are than other countries. We have moved on, if we leave these countries alone, they will too in the fullness of time.

#39 Well said, but will they leave us alone?

Who, gay folk Cadgers? ;-)

Now where was I?

Oh Yes! Islamphobia and the rants and threats from the defenders of freedom and democracy - what a joke.
No need for you numpties to hide behind any semblance of democracy, freedom of speech and the right to worship whichever god you choose.

So when are you planning your Crystalnacht. It looks as if it can't be that far away for quite a lot of you. Fortunately you belong a nutter minority who cringe at the thought of someone might think different from, you might pray differently from you, might dress differently from you or have beliefs that demand that people have their right to express their freedoms and fight for the liberation of occupied nations.

To get back to the thread. If the danger is from a growing Islam in Europe and we cannot imagine mass conversions then your are really concerned with the race of people who enter Europe. That is the truth of the matter. It is for you lot a handy racial card to play.

Since when is being a muslim the same as being a different race?

Silly argument Leon. Really silly actually.

Fortunately you belong a nutter minority who cringe at the thought of someone might think different from, you might pray differently from you, might dress differently from you or have beliefs that demand that people have their right to express their freedoms and fight for the liberation of occupied nations. leon

Um, isn't that what being a Muslim is all about? Denying the right of others?

#27 dolivaw

9 year olds, he was just trying to emulate what used to be standard practise in the southern states of the USA. You sound like you come from those parts, and YOUR condemning the man.
AMF

#30 Covert Action

The story of Shirley Valentine took place in Greece, not Turkey, but then Greece is not predominantly Muslim and that would not have suited your twisted agenda, now would it.

#33 American and Oder various

And the CHRISTIAN Amish people who live in the "land off the free" afford there women all the freedom they desire???????????????

Pot kettle black

While I am not fan of the RCC the observation is in part correct. A recent study of birth trends found that in 30 years there will be more Muslims in Germany than native Germans, as they produce more children. I would imagine similar trends are repeated throughout Europe.

In my view it would be unfair to single out Muslims for special treatment, the only way forward is for a concerted effort to point out the absurdity of all religions even those involving cows! This would require that schools spend more time teaching religion in a rational way, something which I doubt many groups would support. But only once people, in particular tomorrow's adults are taught to critique the various prophets, gods and tales will society be safer.

Religion (of all kinds) kills whether it be Priests killing their flocks in Africa or Imams ordering executions of those criticising Islam. To put it another way religion is facism by another name, and often on a more discrete scale.

#44
nell from falkirk lives in Turkey.
Since you probably couldn't point to greece or turkey on a map, butt out.

I don't mind minorities when they ARE minorities, but when they start becoming the majority, you've got problems.

due to the influx of muslim immigrants, do you believe your country & culture has changed in the past 10yrs?

They don't have to have a majority, they just have to have the guns.

There's only so much tolerance & threats people will take.

All of the above are from this post! Could have come from fascist Germany in the rise to power of Hitler.

Dangerous stuff! Burning Synagogues and burning Mosques! Seems like no difference to me

43

Think before you open your mouth you do not know what you are talking about!

Leon, Hong Kong

So you expect us to be happy that a religiously, culturally and racially different people are moving into our countries, out breeding us (Muslims in Europe have almost three times as many babies as the native population), attacking us with terrorism, rioting, lowering economic standards of development, committing disproportionably more crime, using our egalitarianism, tolerance and justice as a weapons against us and generally transforming our society to their own advantage?

What guarantee do the Swedes, Dutch, French and English have that as they become minorities in Muslim dominated parts of their own countries, they won't suffer expulsion as the Serbs from Kosovo or genocide as the Armenians in Turkey?

There is nowhere in world history where Islam has become the dominate religion peacefully. Europe of the next few decades will be no exception.

Pot-kettle.
The people who gave us the jesuits, opus dei, every single European and South American fascist dictator, who instruct their adherents to keep their children apart from others in education, and who reserve 20% of education posts in Scotland for their own, are warning us of the danger of being swamped by an authoritarian religion.

48

See there you go!
Thats what I'm talking about!!!

I am not a fan of the Catholic Church. In truth, I am not a fan of any church. They all exist in the name of power and financial gain! Churches are the business end of divinity.

But whilst I may not be a fan of the church of Rome, I can openly stand outside the Vatican handing out flyers reading "The Vatican is a Lie"

Some people may take offence, but I will probably not be killed. If I or anyone else stand outside a mosque in any Islamic nation and hand out the same flyers about Islam, then we would definately die. Islam may be a peaceful religion at its core, but its leaders have lost its fundamental meaning and allowed it to spiral out of control.

There will be a war between Islam and the what we could call the Christian world. It is coming!!!!

Islam cannot win it, they dont have the weapons or the technology. And in that war,there will be no rules of engagement....He who has the knowledge has the power, end of story.

#46 Covert Action

Mmmm! Falkirk, lets see, where about on the world map Falkirk is...... ah! there it is, in Scotland.

As for knowing where Greece and Turkey are.
I've been to Greece 3 times ,Turkey 5 times and will be going to Greece again later this year.
Come back and try to teach me geography after you manage to cross the county line for the first time.

And off course I was right about you using Turkey because of its muslim population, or you wouldn't be telling me to butt out.

50. Leon, Hong Kong

If any of my post is wrong, let's hear why. Otherwise your smug conceited complacency about the prospect of Europe descending into civil war is pretty worthless

Once Turkey is in the EU we can expect another 3m Muslims in the UK and another 4m in Germany. BNP is the only answer to halt the Islamic migrant tide.

Robert Crosbie, Galashiels

You're making the assumption that the "tolerant, all-too-silent" amongst Muslims are a majority. Consider this poll:

http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=1145782006

Since fully a quarter are so intolerant that they believe that assassinating London commuters is justified (and presumably the remainder includes many who also agree but are too smart to tell us), then it would be remarkable to me if the genuinely tolerant really were a majority.

America used to belong to the indigenous people. It now is overrun by people of European origin. Hey, life changes. Where are the celts since the saxons arrived?
And what did the Catholics do in South America?
Evolution is a bizzare thing init?

#58. It's just one of many polls that reveal the rotten core at the heart of much Islamic belief.

Robert Crosbie
No, I'm not assuming that every single Muslim is a fanatic but if a quarter agrees with the idea of attacking the civilians of the country which has offered them welcome, it disproves the idea that the majority of Muslims are tolerant.

57. Maurice, Fife

Presumably you agree that America being "overrun by people of European origin" was catastrophic for the native people. Well, as the native people of Europe, we have the opportunity to support or oppose our own demographic demise at the hands of people who would gladly take our homelands from us. It would be a strange thing if we were to welcome the end of our own civilisation especially if it's to be replaced by one so intolerant, primitive and hostile to us as that of the immigrants.

As for evolution, consider that European societies were able to export their culture and people throughout the world by using their superior science, technology and organisation to militarily and economically dominate other peoples. In contrast, Europeans are now being displaced within Europe by people with vastly inferior education, science and technology and no requirement to achieve their goals militarily. Instead, they're using our own social welfare systems to outbreed us and our own compassionate ideas about asylum and humanitarianism to get into our countries.

If our civilisation is too weak to survive the next hundred years, it will be because we have lost our own sense of self preservation, not because any strength of the Islamic civilisation which has yet to create a single country attractive enough to its own people that they would rather stay in it rather than to move here.

#53
enough you prat. If you had posted more than a couple of times on this site you would know that "nell from falkirk" lives in Turkey.

Further, you literal-minded fool, I think you will find that the expression "shirley valentine" has taken on a broader meaning of ladies of a certain age taking up with younger men irrespective of whether they happen to be Scousers on holiday in Greece or not. I expect that if I had called her a Cougar you would be telling me that cats can't read or write. Half-wit.

Incidentally your use of the expression "county line" suggests you aren't Scottish so butt out.

This article about the Vatican's statement raises three issues:
1) Does Islam represent a threat to the non-moslem world?
2) Is this threat real? When will it manifest itself?
3) Is it to the Vatican to raise the alarm? He without sin shall cast the first stone!

As to 1) - Yes Islam does represent a threat to the non-moslem world. Jihad, one of the five pillars of the Moslem faith, to which every moslem is sworn to uphold (or he is considered a heretic), calls for the forced conversion of ALL non-believers, those who refuse to convert to Islam must perish (mostly by the sword). While the vast majority of moslems do not see Jihad as a physical crusade but a "spiritual" one, there is a significant minority led by the Ayataollahs of Iran, the Taliban, the Hizzbullah, Hamas, Hizbut-tahrir, and so many other radical terrorists that still believe that an Islamist Chalifate must be ruling the world, and such rule must be achieved by the sword.

2) The threat is real. ALL points of conflict in the world today are revolving around Islamist ambitions, from Chechnya to Bosnia-Herzegovina, to the middle-east, to the far east, where radical islamists wish to gain control. All these points of friction and tension could easily be inflamed and ignite the tinder-box, that will lead to wider open war. With the possibility that Turkey will become an EU member, and the rapidly increasing moslem ethnic minorities in Europe, there is evident potential for conflict, especially as xenophobia and anti-islamism breeds rejectionism, and tension between christians and moslems.

3) The Vatican is probably not the most credible pole bearer of the battle to restrict the expansion of radical Islam. The Vatican brought Europe the Inquisition which not unlike the Ayatollahs and Taliban wanted to convert by force everybody to catholicism. The Vatican also sat quite when a Christian Europe allowed the massacre of 6 million Jews, and some 2-3

I thought my ears were burning!

#30 Covert action - "nell from falkirk has probably got a shirley valentine thing going"

Chance would be a fine thing!

Can we take it then that Mrs Covert ran off with a Turkish waiter, and nobody wants YOU for a toy boy?

"county line?" - I suspect Dick Cheney had assumed from your posts that you are American, and being consequently somewhat insular would fail to understand any term which wasn't in current use in the US, but incidentally, YOUR use of the term "butt out" suggests YOU aren't Scottish, so "butt out" yourself.

and more incidentally "nell from falkirk lives in Turkey" - LIVED, past tense.

#63 Homo Sap " Jihad" is NOT one of the five pillars of Islam.
The five pillars of Islam include nothing requiring anybody to try to convert anybody to Islam, by any means whatsoever.

You're blethering.

Islam is the newest of the three Abrahamic religions. Its also the most violent!

But religion is an intangible, the religion itself is merely a philosophy, an idea, a concept, a belief. The tangible part is the people themselves.

So, whilst the intangible part of Islam may preach peace. Too many of the tangible part practice violence and murder in the name of the intangible part.

I never thought I'd agree so much with the Catholic church.

Leon@47

Go fek yourself you cheeky b****d. You have provided no explanation other than to try deny MY right to tell you you are an out of touch f****wit. Nor have you provided an explanantion to Dougie.

We know why, of course. you have no idea YOURSELF what on Earth you are rambling about.

So C'mon, tell me how I don't know what I'm talking about and the same for Dougie.

Jesus, you think we live in a bubble or something and have no idea about life and our world. Leon sounds about 12 with his inability to cognitively argue points, instead he tries to censor us. Might work in China pal but no here son.

that's not very christian of the poop - isn't it live and let live (as long as not in the vatican or the local priests house)

Leon; You display childish characteristics. I was going to berate you, but I feel that such actions would be pointless.

It is not your fault, you simply do not understand the complexities of the topic at hand. But when you are older you will.

Until then, keep well

The Catholic church is only bulwark the world has against the mutiplying madness that is Islam. Fact is, we can't live in peace with a great many of these people so the only logical solution is to do what the Spanish did in 1492.

To all the folks who commented, prusuming that the majority of Catholic priests are pedophiles....you have been decieved..... New York Times reporters gathered data leading the public to believe that 1,200 priests have been accused of
sexual abuse of children"in the last few years when actually this
number comes from the past 60 years. The article also led readers to
believe that priests were accused of sexually abusing "children".
Actually, most were accused of abusing teenagers. The distinction is
important. Priests who sexually abuse teenage boys are not pedophiles,
they are homosexual predators. A February 2004 report by the John Jay
College of Criminal Justice noted that 81% of the reported victims of
child sexual abuse by clergy from 1950 to 2002 were teenage boys between
the ages of 16 and 19. That should come as no surprise. From the song
"YMCA" to the Showtime program "Queer as Folk," homosexuals have long
celebrated sex with teenagers. Despite these facts, the Times story
became another piece of "evidence" of a pedophile crisis in a media
feeding frenzy. Why are Catholics just agreeing with the critics and
apologizing with the bishops. Catholics must clarify this issue, that
homosexuals are not necessarily abusers, but as the John Jay College
study shows, most abusers in the priesthood are homosexuals! Thank God
the seminary visitations by the Vatican are facing this issue head on.

#71 What, chuck the Jews out of Spain?
Why?

#51

"There will be a war between Islam and the what we could call the Christian world. It is coming!!!!"

Some good points and not often I agree with Ratzinger but he is absolutely correct-but as to the war-it has already started-look around the world -Phillipines, Thailand, Sudan, Pakistan etc etc and all of the middle east-the muslim world is waging war with people of other faiths -and increasingly with itself.

Our big advantage is that just like all religious fanatics they will turn on themselves just as quickly as they despise the infidel. Maybe having them kill each other is not such a bad idea -Iraq and Palestine can serve as our blueprint-I believe Iran and Pakistan will be next to see this in operation -divide et impera folks.

Islamic facist states and nuclear weapons dont go and whoever is responsible for allowing three million muslims into the UK should be shot!

Funnily enough Encepahlon, what you describe there (the war etc) has been prophisised in the Bible already, to which Ratzebringerbattonburg will be referring to.

Next, it's the War of the Bable of Tongues as the world tries to unify it's language (either Arabic, Hebrew or Galatic Standard English).

#63--Homo Sapiens---i agree the Catholic Church hasn't the "moral authority" in this case, but then no one has addressed this issue in such a direct manner before, & in reading the posts here, it should have been......

point 1 & 2---spot on..

#72 - so the youngsters defiled by priests of the RCC were over 13, so that makes it OK? Buggery as part of the rites of the Church?

I see you come from Maryland, that RC pseudo-state in the USA that only exists because of the founding fathers' creed of Protestant libertarianism.

Anyway, as usual any pronouncement by the Pope of Rome has led to the usual rants about sexually deviant priests, and off the issue. This pronouncement by the Nazi Pope is unsupported by evidence. He is only worried because he sees his bankrupt irrelevant institution losing ground & credibility.

Like it says in the Bible, do not be traduced by Popish persons.

#76 No, Sandy, Homo Sap's point 1 is absolute rubbish, more lies designed to create more hatred.

The Five Pillars of Islam are
1) Acceptance that there is but the One God, and Mohammed is His prophet
2)The Requirement to pray at five fixed times a day
3)The giving of a fixed amount of alms
4)Fasting during Ramadan
5)The making of the Pilgrimage to Mecca if able-bodied and financially in a position to do so.

Nothing about converting anybody or killing anybody.

#42--Leon--when ones particular radical ideology, such as you appear to have, is taken to task, & jawed out, then the 'race card' is always the last course in defense of it, especially when 'race' has no part in the story......

pretty typical for you & your ilk tho, when all else fails & backed into a corner, drag out the ol' race card..

Leon is a person, probably juvenile, who just likes to poke his thumb in your eye – bottom line is he is irrelevant.

Dick “puller” Chenney (he may have used other names in this thread) is a troll and sees himself as comic relief, though not good enough to find someone to actually pay him for his wit. He is like a little kid that rings your doorbell and runs – how clever. Bottom line – he is irrelevant.

Nell is a clueless but if there are enough of them… that would be a problem. Would anyone have any idea how many people in Great Britain, besides the mayor of London, share her views. Serious question and seriously interested. I’ve read polls but polls start with the very naive premise that when people are asked questions they will answer them honestly.

"Europe's Christian roots" are nothing but a history of bloody opression, torture and cultural oblitoration, colonialism, wars, pedophilia and general STUPIDITY. Century after century of mass violence and forced indoctrination, bleahhh.

GOOD RIDDENS TO OUR EUROPEAN CHRISTIAN ROOTS.

I hope the Pope is trembling in fear of low donations, Europe has, is and will continue to change, and if it loses those roots, GOOD!

And the more authoritarian the Pope is, the more people will leave Christianity and seek a new path more revolutionary path, possibly Islam.

Re: 80
I correct myself - nell is criminally clueless.

My goodness - one senior deluded believer in fairies slags off a group who believes in a DIFFERENT type of fairies and expects to be taken seriously.
This is NOT a 'war' between Islam and Christianity, but between superstition (of all sorts) and reason. Those of us who are on the side of 'enlightenment' need to be less tolerant of religion in general. Teaching a child, for example, from the age of 5 to have unquestioned faith in a supernatural power is tantamount to psycological abuse. Those parents, churches, schools, mosques and madrases who perpetrate this 'abuse' should be challenged more than they currently are....

#81
Dragomir makes a prediction:

"And the more authoritarian the Pope is, the more people will leave Christianity and seek a new path more revolutionary path, possibly Islam."

Although you have dropped the Quatrain format and updated it with modern language my guess/prediction is that Nostradamus has nothing to fear from you.

#78 Looks to me like you and #63 are doing the same thing.... Pulling out the nuggets that suit your argument. I'm sure that both of you can pull supporting lines from the koran. It, like mosst religions has contradictory messages of violence, in-tolerance, compassion, war, peace, blah blah. The fact is that most, if not all, conflict seems to involve Islam right now. It is what it is.

#83 Flash67
Well written and I agree. I especially like the fact that you used the word “challenged” and not coerced, it will take a very long time to separate ourselves from religion but it should not be done with force, verbal or otherwise. Islam is exempt from the non-use of force clause as it is not a religion - it is a cult of death and a cult of hate.

#84 "Although you have dropped the Quatrain format and updated it with modern language my guess/prediction is that Nostradamus has nothing to fear from you.# LOL Yeah, me thinks Dragomir was beaten by a Nun as a youth. Wow, that's some angry, hateful wishes towards a body of people and in particular an old guy who seems to be worried about the continent's future, which is wrong, because it represents a viewpoint contrary to Dragomirs and that represents discourse, which is clearly insulting to dragomir and is also, coincidently insulting to Islam ERGO, dragomir is Islam! just kidding on the last part.

I just had an epiphany - I think it would be safe to say that when it comes to Islam Osama bin Laden probably knows more about it than nell and his interpretation doesn’t resemble hers in anyway. So in this case I trust his version more than I do nells. Imagine… Osama bin Laden is more HONEST than nell. Now that’s an epiphany!

Religion wont be around for much longer anyway. Speed of light travel is not that far away. Human cloning and time travel will be here within the next 30 years. Religion will be a nothing and other creatures will exist. There will be computers with consciousness, beasts that look like Shoobaka and holograms all over the place.

Religion is over, its almost dead! But before that happens there will be one last religious war. The winners will be the ones with the biggest and most modern weapons, then religion will be over for eternity.

#83 Flash67
Have you an opinion on Christopher Hitchens book “God is not Great”?

#86 dolivaw - The extremes of Islam are, at this moment worse than the extremes of Christianity. Twus not always thus though. (eg Crusades, inquisition, alternate ethnic cleansing of catholics / protestants in mid-millenium british isles).

However, the point I was making is that we as a society give special status to peoples religious beliefs. We fell comfortable to challenge each other on politics, the environment, music tastes and a hundred other moral and philosophical issues, trivial or not. Yet, religious belief is still, for want of a better word sacrosanct (!). We must be able to test any idea by argument and subject any belief to ridicule. The idea that we can pillory Bush, Blair, Thatcher, whoever by satire, cartoons and other cutting comedy, yet not draw a cartoon of Mohammed or have a comedy film about Jesus is absurd. We feel unable to try to point out to our friend or family the moral dubiety of subjecting a five year old to the Torah, Koran or Bible. (Imagine saying that you were sending your child to a Communist school, or confirming your 6 year old as a dedicated member of the Republican party.) Religion must lose it's special status, but this will take a lot of time and effort, as it is about a cultural change. Cut off the supply of new 'recruits' to these cults and we will see a new dawn of rationality this century.

90 Dolivaw - Haven't read it, but I can guess from the title that it is also an argument about the negative effect of a belief in the supernatural, a la Dawkins 'The God Delusion' ?

#89 Media 1
You may be right, except for the part about “Shoobaka”, no one in their right mind would genetically engineer that dust collector – maybe with short hair? I also think we should concern ourselves more with the here and now. Speculating about how glorious the future will be reminds me too much of those myriad of virgins and other equally implausible stories – you know the futurists religion -where they go on and on about how great the future will be but when you ask them when it’s all going to happen the reply is usually: “don’t worry the check is in the mail” Hey – I’m still waiting for my flying car that was predicted to here years ago – though not by Nostradamus.

Nice epiphany. Reading through Nell's posts a bit.... Did she decide that by virtue of being American one is not globally engaged?? "you are American, and being consequently somewhat insular would fail to understand any term which wasn't in current use in the US" What an ignorant piece of type. Insular? There's a reason people hate us so much, it's because we're 'all up in everyone's business', (some regional dialect for you Nell). Hardly a characteristic of an insular society. Few countries are as externally focussed. I've said it before... the aid given to other countries by the US in both dollars and human capital far outstrips that of any other 2 countries combined. Insular actions? If you're going to say that we ruthlessly export our take on what the world should be... okay. If you want to say that the U.S. is ignorant to other countries, cultures and customs when it smashes about it's capitalism and foreign policy.. okay. But insular? The very fact that we are here on this site to absorb your prejudice is evidence to the contrary.

#80--dolivaw---i think 'puller' is really "Rainbird"

#80--dolivaw---i just slapped myself silly, for after reading your post, i realized i never trusted polls of any kind, so my question @ #5 is moot:~)

#91 Flash67
You’re preaching to the choir – for, as you say, the lack of a better phrase. Another well thought out post - you make up for the time I waste reading nells’ nonsense.
#92
Hitchens’ book is a fast read and he really doesn’t bring anything new to the table that I’m sure you haven’t’ either read or considered yourself but because it’s short it worth a look. And it's all in one place, not spread over 40 news stories.

#94 Stefan - I would agree totally that not all Americans, and certainly not your Governement, are insular - you being a case in point.
I think this belief (true or false) is due in part to the oft quoted figure that relatively few US citizens own passports. (although how few noone is quiet sure! http://www.gyford.com/phil/writing/2003/01/31/how_many_am...)

#89 Media 1

No matter how much technology has and will advance there has always been and always will be a quest for divine knowledge, years ago people couldn't have imagined televisions, cars and travelling around the world in a fairly short space of time, yet we still have religion, what makes you think a further advancement in technology will change this?

#97 Dolivaw - will look up Hitchen's. And likewise Richard Dawkins' book is written with his usual sharp and incisive style...

I WOULD agree, however, with Nell's general point, that there is a danger that an anti-islam stance (which I am all in favour of, as I am with anti-christianity etc) becomes a means of justifying racism. The problem is not people here, it is the belief 'virus' that they have been infected with....

#94 Stefan
nell will never be persuaded by your posts – not possible with a closed mind - but she does serve a purpose. When you respond to her nonsense in your posts you are displaying, for contrast, how a rational person thinks. This won’t influence nell but for the fence sitters it will give them one more reason to get down and join the debate – good for you Stefan.

#96 sandy
Good morning

Flash67. Good link. Interesting.

#101 dolivaw True enough.

Gotta go. Have a great one everyone.

re Nell's comments. I would say that the only sense that I AM more worried about a Europe that is increasingly moslem is that I can see less tolerance for criticism of Islam from Moslems than there is for the same criticism of Christianityat the moment. (again, this is something which varies across space and time - try being an unbeliever in Spain during the inquisition!)

59,70,61,68,80,
You guys still slapping it against the wall in the hope that somebody might hear your wailing. Give it up it's as dead as your ideas.

Your Islamophobia is simply a cover for you insipid racism.

Some of your posts could be liable for prosecution in the UK. An idea that should be investigated.

number 69 where do you get your worldly knowledge but what a Moslem believes in a little pub in that little island of yours.

#100 Flash67
I was born with an open mind and I’m staunchly committed to dying with an open mind. I have in my head – all at the same time – liberal, conservative, libertarian and on occasion anarchist views. This does not however mean that all things are, or should be, acceptable. Nazis, the KKK, skinheads etc have no place in a civil society and should not be tolerated. This to me is the group which Islam belongs to – it should not be tolerated.

Too many people have sacrificed to get our society to this point and while I acknowledge we have a long way to go the thought of being pushed back 400 years by Muslims, or anyone other group, can not be tolerated. Zero tolerance for the Muslim time machine that would take us backward 400 years.

#105 dolivaw - The only difference is that fundamentalist Moslems kill more people deliberately than fundie Christians. Both beliefs, and Judaism, in their most common form, are equally as racist, sexist, homphobic, xenophobic etc.
My own belief is that we must resist the propogation of religion in all forms, in order to progress as an enlightened global community. At the moment, the biggest threats to this are radical islam and fundamentalist christianity (including catholicism), in that order. We MUST not ignore, however, the 'friendly' christianity or islam, as these set the conditions (unconditional faith and acceptance of the WORD) for extremism to flourish...

105

Cover it up in any way you want but what you are preaching is dangerous. By calling for zero tolerance of a religion is exactly what anti-Semitism ios all about. No lies you are what you are-!!

This is a religion not a street gang and no matter how much you disagree you cannot call for action to be taken against them - unless you want us to live in a society that will act against anything that does not reflect white cultural beliefs.

I am just waiting for you to give your answer as to how you would progress with this zero tolerance. Should be interesting!

#105. The nazi's never launched suicide bomb attacks against the Soviets or Allied powers in WW2. In that regard Islamic fervour is far more dangerous than Nazism or Stalinist Communism.

108

Oh yes the BNP I believe. Revisionism at it least effective.

#108- I don't recall suicide bombers murdering 15 million people yet ... or have I got my sums wrong?

105

knock knock - is there anybody there????

107. Leon, Hong Kong

If racism means hatred based on race alone then you've got no basis for calling us racist. If to you however, racism means wanting to protect your own culture and ethnic group from being overrun by a foreign culture and ethnic group then you've confused racism and patriotism.

What you have the luxury of ignoring, living in one of the few parts of the world yet to be infiltrated by Islamic immigration, is that nowhere have large numbers of Muslims been able to live in close proximity to non-Muslims without violent conflict.

No amount of unilateral tolerance by Europeans is going to appease Islam’s endless list of grievances. By their own deliberate choice and by sheer cultural distance, the large numbers of Muslim immigrants we’re now seeing in Europe have no prospect of peacefully integrating into white society – at least it would be a first in world history were they to do so. Vicious religious war is the historical precedent; it’s what we’ve already seen in Bosnia, Lebanon and Kosovo. Although we may wish for another outcome, it would be dangerous to expect anything else.

#108 Truth Finder
Many people are saying the Muslims have learned much from the Nazis – I have read some accounts that seem worthy of more investigation – historically. They seem to indicate that it was the other way around entirely and that Hitler actually learned from the Muslims.

#112 Dougie
I like the way you think!

107
Funny that but i thought that the UK was a multi cultural society that has been living together peaceful for about 55 years now. Even to the extent that whites and black have fought back against racist ideas espoused by lumpen elements like yourself.

You are in good company when you talk about about
"being overrun by a foreign culture and ethnic group" the exact sentiment of the Nazi party when it stirred up hatred against Jews and blacks and any non-arien.

But I have a sneaking suspicion that is exactly how you see your world. And if the truth were to be told you would show your true colours.

114
Still waiting for yoour final solution!!!

You gov survey: One in four Muslims sympathises with motives of terrorists

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005...

Forty per cent of young Muslims would prefer to live under Sharia law in Britain

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007...

Pew survey:
DID ARABS CARRY OUT 9/11?
56% of UK Muslims say no

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/5110364.stm

114

What stilll on the pan???

114. dolivaw
Thank you!

116. Leon
My final solution:

1) stop immigration from Muslim societies now - including asylum seekers, family reunification, everything (especially so-called doctors)

2) stop perverse social welfare payments which make European countries so attractive to Muslim immigration (for example Abu Hamza and his ½ million pound council house)

3) for Muslims born in Britain, provide generous financial incentives for them to voluntarily return to their ancestral countries, offer incentives for those countries to take them.

#112 Dougie - I would agree with you on the principle that racism is not the same as religious disagreement. You do not choose your race or nationality or sexuality, but you DO choose your religion. Therefore criticising a whole religion is more acceptable than any of the others.
Saying "Allah is a figment of the imagination" SHOULD be more acceptable than criticising someone for being gay....
But we all know that the former is more likely to bring a 'fatwah'. The problem is that crtiticism of Islam, as I understand it, is a great sin to Moslems, and that jars with our increasingly secular and free speech principles. Rather than punishing the great majority of moslems who do not advocate violence to defend their absurd beliefs (absurd in the sense that all religion is absurd), we must push our education system towards increased secularism. That means no state funding of ANY kind of church schools, be they Islamic, CoE, RC. Cut of the roots of the belief system and the fruits of ingnorance will eventually wither....

What if they won't go? After all they are 3rd generation and sometime 4th generation UK citizens.

Smacks of Hitler's approach to the final solution.

You will need to fill the gaps here because there are too many loopholes.

Basically, the UK is their home and they aint going anywhere.

Back on the pan for you mate. You will be purged from the party of you don't come up with better ideas than that

#119 - what about non-moslems from these families and societies? And is someone who is a white british moslem convert? What about the moslem whose family has been here for 100 years - where do you 'send them back' to?
Problem is, that there has long been a large moslem community living in the UK peacefully for manyyears and the majority still are....

I never thought I would find myself rooting for a military dictator, but... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6918558.stm

The best laugh of the month when you died-in-the-wool prots started rooting for the pope because he made a few racist remarks. You make a lovely couple! Or do you think maybe Gaenswein was hoping the church would get a rebate on the $600 million in damages if it plugs the party line? I don't think Georgieboy has that sort of pull any longer, but taking a look at recent Supreme Court decisions who knows!!!

Message for Sandy as a follow-up to my comment a few weeks ago. I hope you enjoyed the Senate Judiciary Committee's hearing earlier this week when Godzillez excelled himself again with his mentally-disabled act to avoid admitting he'd lied previously and incriminating other members of the administration. It was a magnificent performance. Specter was speechless! I quote "The hearing two days ago was devastating," (for Godzillez) "but so was the hearing before that, and so was the hearing before that." In another interview the FBI's Mueller contradicted him as Comey had done a few weeks ago.

What happened to your Fred Thomson plug or wasn't that you or do you have a new candidate? Fred seems OK to me? He's a great lawyer.

119
Still no guts. Fairly typical of your insipid racism. Get off the pan and say it how you really feel it.

#124 - mind translating for the the rest of the world...?

120. Flash67, Edinburgh

I totally agree that all religion should be subject to criticism, recent calls to censor this religious criticism are outrageous.

I'm not religious myself but I think it's pretty unfortunate if peaceful Christianity which has been part of our culture for over a thousand years has to be expunged from our society because Islam is causing us problems. Islam to me seems a special case. We don't have a problem with Sikh or Hindu terrorism in Britain after all.

121. Leon, Hong Kong

The only reason they're in Britain in the first place is for money. Bribing them to leave is a humane and economical solution. You're right that a minority won't want to leave. That minority however is likely to be primarily of those with enough affinity to our society that they want to integrate. It's a matter of numbers. The numbers we have now are dangerous.

As for Hitler, he deliberately hindered Jewish people from leaving Germany. His attitude to Jews in Germany was essentially irrational and he, rather than the Jews, created ethnic conflict in Europe.

In contrast, encouraging Muslims to leave Western societies is a sensible precaution to prevent existing ethnic conflict from spreading to outright civil war. Instead of fuelling conflict, repatriation is a measure that would diminish the possibility for war and genocide in the future.

The unwarranted optimisation you're guilty of is a big cause of the problems we've already got.

122. Flash67, Edinburgh
White people who turn their backs on their own culture by converting to Islam are a tiny minority and really aren't the problem here.

#125
You keep calling me racist. What do you actually mean by this? I'm trying to be realistic. I want to avoid a civil war in Britain twenty years or fifty years down the track. I want to avoid the British population of the future becoming so frustrated at how their country has been wrecked that some Hitler type character takes power.

#80 Dolivaw

Obviously you are unable to answer my post in any kind of intelligent way, which was to be expected, and you have to find a way of saving face.
You are obviously incapable of a reasoned arguement,so you come up with what you think is a smartass comeback

..... and YOU call me irrelevant.

As for me using other names, being a troll or being someone else. just more smoke to hide your embarassment at your own intellectual shortcomings.

You and #95 (Office of Global Communications fool you darlin) are prime examples of the old "open mouth before engaging brain" condition, also known as an inabilty to think. That is why you will continue to embarass yourselves.

#110. The point is that Hitler never ordered or attempted to recruit people for suicide missions: Unlike Islamists. And who knows how many millions Islamists murdered via the sword from Mecca?! Not many peacefully converted!

Islamists lack the means to kill millions only; not the desire.

Leon, there are problems defining racism as hatred. Here's a name we don't hear much anymore, but Dr. Albert Schweitzer was the Mother Teresa of the first half of the twentieth century. But instead of easing the sufferings of Indians, he did more than any human being in history to ease the sufferings of Africans and to try to lift them out of the world's worst poverty. Yet the man who selflessly devoted his entire life to Africans also felt that Africans were intellectually incapable of ever governing their own affairs. So, while he devoted his life to Africans, he didn't think too much of them.

Leon, would you call him a racist? Careful how you answer that. There are undoubtedly people posting who remember him, and you'll look like a fool.

Also Leon: History has been defined as the record of man's inhumanity to man. And much of this inhumanity involves ethnic groups who can't get along with one another. So why would you even consider embarking on such a dangerous experiment as making Brits a minority in their own country? Could it be your hatred for Brits?

#131. Schweitzer was more visionary than racist, but I'd qualify his view: Islamists AND blacks can't govern a nation (albeit for different reasons)

Zimbabwe: A prosperous wealthy nation reduced to an impoverished failed state with three decades by incompetent black rule.

Similarly Iran, (a proserous nation under the Shah, now a hell hole thanks to rigid dogma). Take away the oil and they'd starve.

#128 Keep going Dougie! Your doing great.

#130 One of the few times we can be grateful to Allah/Ollie for not making Muslims as competent as the Germans were.

Curse Ollie and may the joke be upon him.

#131 Bravo Dunnyveg! You've just turned Leon into a MULE.

#126
My thoughts exactly.

#132: Actually, the best definition of racist I've encountered is one I learned in the military: A racist is one who either advocates denying, or actually denies, rights accorded to one group of citizens to another group based upon skin color. The reason racism is no longer defined in this manner is because it no longer exists. If any group is being denied rights, it is the majority popluation.

Truthfinder, I also agree with you that neither blacks nor Moslems have done good jobs of running their own countries. But I do think they have the same rights to mismanage their countries as any other group. I just don't want them doing it in the West.

#134: Thank you for the kind words, Dolivaw, and I also agree with your assessment of Dougie. It's always good to be associated with those who think before they post!

nell some details that may assist getting to sleep at night.

Islamic Teachings on sex with infants:

"A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate. If he penetrates and the child is harmed then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however would not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girl's sister."

The complete Persian text of this saying can be found in "Ayatollah Khomeini in Tahrirolvasyleh, Fourth Edition, Darol Elm, Qom"

Wait till you read the chapter on animals! This is real sick stuff.

500 million folk in Europe.
40 million profess to be followers of Islam.

While the EU does have its own laws, all other nation states have their own laws.

How, exactly, does this Christian, who believes in the concept of virgin birth/HIV getting through condoms/wears a dress and doesn't have sex/part of the biggest pedo institution known......, how does he think that there will be an "Islamisation of Europe"? Coup? 200 million Europeans will wake up and say, "You know, I think I'll start believing in in an external God today and I think Muhammed is the very chap for me! These Christians are okay but their ban on female priests, their ban on contraception, their systematic abuse of boys, their views that sex for fun is a sin and their view that women should not be in control of their bodies.....are simply not extreme enough. No, I want some extreme fringe version of Islam!"

Get real. More "Worry, Worry, Worry" herd control propaganda by the biggest propaganda institution known, with the exception of Murdoch.

#138
Thanks so much for that Non sequitur.

Dolivaw, I've just read through your posts, and truly I begin to wonder if Adolf didn't survive the bunker, and is now rooted in the US.

Your undiluted venom makes pretty hard reading; at times you seem to be actually throwing yourself at the cage bars. What has caused you to feel so much loathing I wonder?
You genuinely can't seem to accept that others can hold views which may be as relevant as your own; you seem to be compelled to shout abuse at them. It's obvious that you know nothing of Islam, but you've picked it out as your object for hate; obvious too that you know nothing of Christianity, or the teachings of Jesus Christ.

How can anybody go about preaching so much hatred against so many people? It's obvious that you haven't ever left the US; obvious you have never engaged with anybody from a culture other than your own, far less taken the trouble to get to know such people.

If you had, then you'd know that at the end of the day, there really is no difference at all between peoples.

All races, all religions, all beliefs, all creeds - they have good people and bad; they have crooks, and they have heroes; they have a few who are downright evil, and a few who are saints; most just try to get on with their lives, and raise their families the best they know how, to do what's right and good by their lights.

Most people who've travelled around a bit, and kept their minds open, have worked this out for themselves; sadly, I don't think you personally ever will; but what's worrying is that there are so many like you, both in the US and in the Middle East.

You couldn't slip a cigarette paper between the ethos and outlook of you and your US neocon friends and those of Bin Laden and his.

You're two sides of the same coin.

137 Doliwav

Here's a link to the entire Koran with a search facility. Please show me any part of the Koran, the word or Muhammed, that contains your post?

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/koran/

Now, I know you didn't say it was IN the Koran but the inference was there. That text is not in the Koran.

Now, less rhetorical question, PLEASE find me any RATIONAL site that discusses "Ayatollah Khomeini in Tahrirolvasyleh, Fourth Edition, Darol Elm, Qom" or, better, find me the original in translation.

Many sites make the quote you did, ALL of them biased beyond belief and most have that text quoted in a comment field, not the main text.

139. dolivaw

Eh? I wasn't following the comments thread. It was fresh comment on the subject. Bad day, huh?

117. Dougie - Edinburgh

The two Telegraph links, central to your argument, don't work.

#140 nell
The further I and the rest of the world is from accepting any of YOUR closed minded observations the better off I and they will be.

I respond to what you say you respond by making up things about me when you write:

“It's obvious that you haven't ever left the US; obvious you have never engaged with anybody from a culture other than your own, far less taken the trouble to get to know such people.”

This is the language of a supremacist and if you claim to be a mind reader let me say you stink at that also. The people that know me would NOT be LOL at what you wrote they would be seriously offended, as I am, knowing the sacrifices I’ve made in my life for the other guy, and woman BTW. You have NOT addressed any of the issues of Islam that have been presented to you by other posters and frankly your Scarlet O’hara approach to addressing issues has worn thin. The line from Monty Python’s comes to mind: “Oh… you’re no fun anymore”

To all those above you cite "Muslim Polls"; all the polls you cite are from newspapers or refer back to a Despatches show.

A professional poll, by Gallup, tells a different story. Use this link to read the questions and the responses. Assuming you actually want to know wht the UK muslims really think. Alternatively, GO TO THE LOCAL MOSQUE AND TALK TO THEM.

http://www.ihrc.org.uk/show.php?id=2584

#108 Truth Finder "Islamic fervour is far more dangerous than Nazism or Stalinist Communism."

Hitler killed over 6,000,000 people in camps; nobody knows for sure what Stalin's tally was, but probably about 15,000,000.

#112 Dougie "nowhere have large numbers of Muslims been able to live in close proximity to non-Muslims without violent conflict."
Not so; take a look at the history of the Ottoman Empire.
At the time when Roman Catholic Europe was persecuting Jews for all it was worth, the Ottoman Empire invited them in, and there they have stayed to this day. The Ottomans had freedom of religious observance, provided people did not conspire against the Empire and provided they paid their taxes.

This when Europe was occupied with the frenzies of the Inquisition and witch finders, courtesy of the Roman Catholic Church.

In fact all those who keep making comments along the lines of "no Muslim countries can run themselves" would do well to have a look at the Ottoman Empire, which operated successfully for some 600 years - considerably longer than that of the Roman Empire or the British Empire.

#84, I'm not a fan of Nostradamus, he wrote vague poetic stuff and has been reinterpreted in so many ways that it's pure naivety to believe him. What I said is what I wanted to say, whenever cultural movements become radical, they tend to become less popular to the old mediocre majority.

Most smart people will laugh at the Poop and leave their religious prejudice behind, you can call them "atheists" or "agnostics". However hardcore believers which get disgusted with the Pope are likely to turn to Islam, since that religion had and has still many positive revolutionary aspects and since it's very simple at the core... and it's not a "turn the other cheek, lay down and die" religion... Just like how people turned to Protestantism a few centuries ago in Europe.

This is not a prediction, it's happening already, the Poop just made things worse as he, like the Western mainstream media, is adding to the popularity of Islam (even bad publicity is useful publicity).

#Stefan, the Church is not worried about Europe, it's worried about its slaves..erm.. pardon, "followers", and the donations. And no, I have not been beaten by any religious figure, in fact I've had a very a-religious bring-up, so I have no bias in my perspective of the local religion here: Christianity.

Over 1000 years of history proves my point about this fowl culture which has produced one of the largest most barbaric and hypocritical civilizations in the history of mankind ("western civilization"). I detest every inch of that religion, for in every inch there's a reflection of a big bloody lie that continues to devolve the course of human society.

#144 dolivaw

You say Nell has "NOT addressed any of the issues of Islam".

YOU have failed to address anything anyone has brought up, all you do is sit and make snide comments at other posters. Your a juenvile bully and blowhard and not much else. Serious discussion is something you will obviously never manage. as evinced by your monty python quote.

Viva il Papa! Have u all seen the new Catholic Truth website??? Wow???

That "Wow???" should be WOW!!!

#147
Using Nostradamus was an attempt at humor, he and anyone that believed his writings is a flake. Some more humor – I bet nell reads Nostradamus – It’s a joke.
I do not think Europe will be overrun by Muslims – Europeans in the end will not allow it. But had Adolph been dealt with early on the carnage of WWII would have been substantially reduced and you’re faced with a similar problem right NOW. Deal with Islam now and the grief, of which there will be a significant amount, will also be reduced to a minimum wait till the last minute and the carnage will be enormous and has already been pointed out it won’t be Europeans who will die in large numbers. I know it’s cliché but nell is Neville waving the white page and she is just as dangerous which is why I asked earlier how many people are there like nell in Great Britain. By appeasing the Muslims it’s like throwing down a welcome mat which they will take advantage of, the larger their numbers grow the larger the carnage. It’s way more humane to act now rather than wait - Islam will not be accepted by progressive forward thinking Europeans they have come too far to compromise themselves out of existence – it won’t happen.

#148 Pull this
So you don't like Monty Python? Too each his own - how's that for generosity?

#138

"How, exactly, does this Christian, who believes in the concept of virgin birth/HIV getting through condoms/wears a dress and doesn't have sex/part of the biggest pedo institution known......, how does he think that there will be an "Islamisation of Europe"?"

Are you as scornful of lefty superstitions as you are of Christian superstitions? How about the absurd notion that we're all completely equal in each and every way? How about the notion that human nature is infinitely malleable? How about the notion that living in peace, love, and harmony with the world is possible? How about the belief that white Christians have some sort of monopoly on evil and cruelty?

Christianity has witnessed its dark age where reason was suspect. The Left is about to launch us into another dark age where reason will be verboten.

And as far as the Islamization of Europe goes, it's your proposal to bring these people into Europe, and it should be incumbent upon you to address all objections to your policy.

#147. Okay. Let's say you're right about the church's motives. I'm not necessarily agreeing with you, but there's history to suggest that the revenue stream is jealosly guarded by the same, so we'll set that aside as at least possible. Still, how exactly has western civilization 'devolved' over the last 1,000 years? As opposed to the, let's say, the Islamic world? I hate to repeat myself from by-gone posts, but they still stone people in Iran. Hang teenage girls for crimes against chastity and in Saudi Arabia are about to behead a teenage house maid.

nell from falkirk

you said
Oder #26 Any normal person condemns paedophiles in whatever guise, shade or colour they come. A child abuser of whatever stamp has placed himself (or herself) outwith society.

Muhammed came in the guise of a holy man then?
his tan does not matter, child abuser, placed himself out with society so you acknowledge he is a paedophile!

#152 dolly

"#148 Pull this
So you don't like Monty Python? Too each his own - how's that for generosity?"

Love monty python, great satire. It never produced any answers or seriously addressed any issues though.
A bit like you.

How's that for generosity?

#153 Dunnyveg - this is fascinating stuff.
What constitutes a "lefty superstition"?

(Incidentally, in most of Europe, and particularly in Scotland, it isn't considered an insult to be either "liberal" or "left-wing"; quite the contrary, in fact.)

The socialist belief isn't and hasn't ever been, either in Scotland or elsewhere, that all people are equal; it is that all people should have equal opportunities.
I can't see how anybody could call that a superstition. And I don't see that it's other than an excellent goal and one worth striving for.

As to the "lefty superstition" of "the notion that living in peace, love, and harmony with the world is possible" - I rather thought that was what Jesus died for on the cross, and would have said it was the prime tenet of all His teachings.
And strangely, despite the shambles of the planet, and the malevolence of much of humankind, I do still believe that is no superstition, but a definite possibility, given the will that it should be so.

And "the belief that white Christians have some sort of monopoly on evil and cruelty" - I don't know anybody who believes this, though certainly as a group they have their share. (though it should be added here that those who are evil and/or cruel aren't really followers of Jesus, who was neither, and preached nothing but love and tolerance.)

Sadly, many of his followers seem to have forgotten that. But you can't blame Jesus Christ or Christianity for the failings of its followers, any more than you can blame Islam for the failings of its.

143. Väinämöinen

Apologies for the broken links - not sure what went wrong.
Let's see if this works...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007...

156 Pull this
Worthless - just like mine was meant to be.

145. Väinämöinen

The Gallup poll you quote finds that “an overwhelming 91.4% of British Muslims respect the law”. Personally I’m not too surprised that people overwhelmingly claim that they respect the law. I’m glad that police investigations don’t rely on this line of questioning otherwise their success rate would be even worse than it already is.

You suggest that we should go into mosques and ask people what they think. A Channel 4 reporter did even better than this. He went into mosques undercover as a Muslim to ask people what they think. What he found out should be a wake up call to complacent utopians such as yourself who believe extremism is exaggerated:

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/dispatches/undercov...

You complain that newspaper polls are somehow unreliable however most of the above articles are merely newspapers reporting details of large surveys such as by Pew rather than running their own small scale surveys carelessly.

Here are some more examples:

25% of Muslim teens in USA: Suicide bombs justifiable
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1178708663403&...

58% of UK Muslims say Tony Blair is “a lot” to blame for the London bombings
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Politics/documents/...

Also interesting, from a Pew poll of 10 000 Muslims:
“The richer these people get, the more they favour radical Islamism”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinio...

Now, you can cherry pick othe

#155 oder

Seeing as you are so interested in branding historical figures as pedophiles lets not leave out the majority of US states, who up until 1914 had legal ages of consent of between 10 and 12. Thats the majority of american society.
http://www.binghamton.edu/womhist/aoc/abstract.htm

Until 1885 the same applied to the UK
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/7023/Consent.html

and this abstract from the Journal of Psychology & Human Sexuality Volume: 16 Issue: 2/3
http://www.haworthpress.com/store/ArticleAbstract.asp?sid...

has some nice things to say about christian views of the age of consent. 7 years old for the christians too it seems. As Nell said all child abusers. Are you going to condemn christians to the same extent as muslims or are you just a religious bigot.

Abstract:
Age of Consent throughout history has usually coincided with the age of puberty although at sometimes it has been as early as seven. Early on age of consent was a familial or tribal matter and only became a legal one in the Greco-Roman period. The Roman tradition served as the base for Christian Europe as well as the Christian Church itself which generally, essentially based upon biological development, set it at 12 or 14 but continued to set the absolute minimum at seven. In the past century there has been a tendency to raise the age of consent but the reasons for the change have not always been clear and the issue has been further complicated by the reluctance of many contemporary historians to recognize what the actual age of consent in the past has been. This failure has distorted the importance of biology on age of consent in t

#160 Dougie
Nice presentation, not that it will matter to Väinämöinen as he will just reject anything that he disagrees with on the grounds of its validity.

It will be read by others who may be more open minded so your post has great value. Thank you!

146. nell from falkirk

Certainly Islam has been able to live in peace with other religions where it has been able to dominate and oppress the followers of those religions.

The Ottoman empire imposed oppressive taxes (jizya) specially for non Muslims, took (Serbian) young Christian boys from their parents to be raised as Muslim slaves, often castrated and used as janissary soldiers to oppress their own race.

The Islamic regime in Egypt was so oppressive that the overwhelming majority of Coptic Christians were reduced to the 10% they are today - much as the once huge Zoroastrian religion has been almost eliminated under Islamic rule.

The corruption, tyranny and contempt for non-Muslims shown by the Ottoman empire should be a warning for what parts of Europe will face should Muslims gain political power.

#161 Pull this
And how many legal marriages of adult men to nine year old girls did you come up with?

147. Dragomir

So according to you the Western civilisation which gave the world modern technology, democracy and the notion of individual liberty is "barbaric and hypocritical".

However, you're defending an expansionist militaristic civilisation which requires all who don't follow its religion to be killed or enslaved and humiliated, a civilisation which can't create countries its own people want to live in (as evidenced by the millions claiming asylum in the west), a civilisation which beheads women and stones children to death and which punishes theft by cutting off limbs.

Please explain!

Good evening all:-)

Nell: I feel a hot poker moment coming on!

Yes, all different, all equal.

OK. I'm late to the debate but let's take a look at the stats for Scotland as an example:

Christianity - 65.1%

Second to Christianity (and growing) is secularism - 27.5%

Muslims currently make up make up 0.84% of the population in Scotland.

My "lefty" view is that the way forward is to encourage the growth of secularism in all state matters (education, governance etc)

oops only the one make up required!

#157

"What constitutes a "lefty superstition"?"

I gave you a list of superstitions. These include egalitarianism, the infinite malleability of human nature, the idea of the brotherhood of man, universal rights, and I could go on and on. A superstition is any widely, firmly held belief contradicted by science. And every one of these liberal superstitions are contradicted by science.

(Incidentally, in most of Europe, and particularly in Scotland, it isn't considered an insult to be either "liberal" or "left-wing"; quite the contrary, in fact.)

That's reassuring. I don't aim to insult anybody. The truth of the matter is that I don't identify myself as a conservative. And where I'm from conservative is a compliment.

The socialist belief isn't and hasn't ever been, either in Scotland or elsewhere, that all people are equal; it is that all people should have equal opportunities.
I can't see how anybody could call that a superstition. And I don't see that it's other than an excellent goal and one worth striving for.

Socialism isn't just based on egalitarianism, it's based upon radical egalitarianism. Are anti-racists not socialists (e.g., International ANSWER? Would they not scream bloody murder if somebody were to suggest that the races aren't all equal in each and every way? And I've never met a conservative feminist. Are feminists not a species of socialist? Wouldn't feminists claw the eyes out of any man who even thought there may be a biological basis for men being better mathematicians than women. Do you remember Harvard's former president, Larry Summers?

And I don't think you're correct on socialists wanting equal opportunities for all; socialists want equal outcomes for all. The difference? The child born with an IQ of seventy has the same social opportunity to be head of a major corporation as the kid born with an IQ of 150. Guess which child will head that cor

167. thatscottishwoman 2

We've very lucky in Scotland that we've (apparently) got less than 1% Muslims. If that's meant to reassure us, may I remind that we've already had several Islamic terrorist plots in Scotland. It seems that even 1% is too much.

In truth nobody knows how many Muslims there are here because there are so many illegal immigrants living secretly.

The Pope however, was talking about Europe overall, not Scotland. Muslims are estimated to be 1/3 of the population of France by 2050 which means far more than 1/3 of the young people. Netherlands and Belgium are close behind.

157 Comments (so far) and not one has blamed the Jooz for ethnically cleansing all those Moozlims to Europe. Is this a record?

#166

My "lefty" view is that the way forward is to encourage the growth of secularism in all state matters (education, governance etc)

Can you name a secular state that has existed for at least two hundred years? If my reading of history is correct, secularism and atheism comprise the death throes of a civilization or culture.

The closest exception to my rule I can find is France. And France is a LOT more than 0.84% Muslim. France won't be here to celebrate two hundred years of secularism on their present course. Other secular states include the now-defunct "People's Republics".

Secularism is a death wish.

#165, no, democracy came from the Greeks, which were not so western, as did the republic; I still have doubts about the industrial and post industrial age, what its effects are on the future of mankind; the culture of individual liberty is from the Greeks and Buddhists, western thinkers only refined it, and sadly it's dissolving now... individual liberty is dissolving into "consumer potential"... I'm trying to restrain myself from using the word "civilization" near "western", since it just isn't one because it's very polarised... it's more of a western zeitgeist, rather than a certain civilization.

My grudge is still with the Church for continuing to block the evolution of the human spirit, for 2000 years now.

As for whom I am defending, you have more to learn, not only about those people but about yourself and layers of prejudice you hold.

#157 nell
nell wrote:
“The socialist belief isn't and hasn't ever been, either in Scotland or elsewhere, that all people are equal; it is that all people should have equal opportunities.”

I believe the last part of your sentence but I don’t believe you do and the line: “The socialist belief isn't and hasn't ever been, either in Scotland or elsewhere, that all people are equal”

Strikes me as being made by the kind of person you accused me of being when you said:

“It's obvious that you haven't ever left the US; obvious you have never engaged with anybody from a culture other than your own, far less taken the trouble to get to know such people.”

The sense that all people are equal is a prevalent belief by a very large number of people here in the US and they further believe that the only reason they may not be as rich or as smart as other citizens has nothing what ever to do with them personally but with a system that failed them. This is vigorously believed by a very significant number of people here and I find it hard to reconcile the idea you are unaware of this belief when you imply how worldly you are and how backwoods I am. I do plead guilty to never having been to the states here referred to as southern; one of my goals is to die with that fact intact.

#169 Dougie:

Yes, I am aware that the reference was Europe wide. Why would the pope have such an interest in this, other than the potential lose to his own religion.

"We've very lucky in Scotland that we've (apparently) got less than 1% Muslims."

Why?

I am not in favour of your solution as outlined at #119

If the projected demographics are correct then it is important that we engage with what will be a large proportion of the EU community.

You may find the final four paragraphs of the following article of interest:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/FH12Aa02.html

#171 Dunnyveg:

So, you are advocating that the church run the state?

172. Dragomir

Modern democracy has little relationship with that of ancient Greece but since Western intellectual thought has a continuously traceable ancestry to ancient Greece, you’re welcome to credit Greece with that.

You write I have more to learn about Islam, perhaps you could tell me which part of my post was wrong?

Did Mohammed or did he not instruct his followers to kill or enslave those who don’t follow Islam?

Is Islam or is it not able to create countries its own people want to live in? Emigration from across the Muslim world suggests not.

Does it or does it not behead women and stone children to death?

#172
Democracy did indeed come from the Greeks in the wake of the Tyrants. But Buddhism in no way, shape, or form allowed the orient to experience the same freedoms we enjoy in the West. Indeed, the eminent Greek historian, Thucydides addresses this very point. He said the difference is between a Greek and an Oriental is that a Greek stands and looks his superiors straight in the eye; Orientals were required to lay prostrate in the presence of their superiors.

The bottom line is that it's superstitious to believe in universal rights. Rights are very much culture-specific. And our concept of rights here in America and Britain are very definitely Anglo-Celtic. Because universal rights don't exist, where universal rights prevail, no rights prevail.

I applaud you for your comments on consumerism, which has done none of us any good. To broach a cultural difference, Anglos have a strong work ethic; even the atheists believe that an idle moment is a sinful moment. Celts, on the other hand, being originally a pastoral people, had a duty ethic, which includes important things (duty to God, country, honor, etc.) that the old protestant work ethic never addresses. I don't know the situation in Britain, but in America Celts gave America most of its culture (country music, jazz, blues, novels, etc.)

The reason we still have such a strong work ethic is because Western Civilization is now hamstrung by transnational corporations, which demand an endless supply of cheap, disposable labor. These are the issues you should be fighting rather than your fellow countrymen.

What spirit has Christianity "sapped" over the last two thousand years? I hope you haven't pre-judged....

Yes, Dougie does have much to learn. But so do we. And if Dougie is expected to examine his prejudices, will you do likewise?

#176 "...but since Western intellectual thought has a continuously traceable ancestry to ancient Greece, you’re welcome to credit Greece with that..."

But you forgot to mention that the 'continously traceable ancestry' is in fact entirely due to the Islamic scholars who preserved and developped this ancient knowledge whilst Europe was going through the 'dark' ages!

*When Western Europe was at its lowest intellectual peak, from the 5th to the 15th centuries, Islamic civilisation was rising rapidly. A thirst for knowledge, including science, was encouraged by the religious leaders of early Islam.
*The works of the ancients, including Aristotle, Socrates, Ptolemy, Galen, Pythagoras and Euclid were collected, safeguarded and translated into Arabic.
*The chemical properties of alkalis and acids were discovered by Islamic scientists.
*The process of distillation was formulated and used to produce petrol from crude oil.
*Islamic scientists contributed to algebra, algorithms, trigonometry, geometry, chemistry, cosmology, astronomy, medicine and optics.
*Islamic scholars developed the concepts of modern hospitals, universities, observatories and civil systems.
*The concept of zero reached medieval Europe through the Arab nations who had probably learned of it from ancient Hindu and Chinese cultures. Once zero was incorporated, numbers took on the more manageable decimal system that we use today.

http://www.channel4.com/science/microsites/S/science/soci...

177. Dunnyveg

How do you define "Celts" or, indeed "Anglo"?

#177 Dunnyveg:

You use the word superstitious, what do you mean?

You raise an interesting point vis a vis rights.

Universalism versus cultural relativism.

Expand your argument please.

#164 dolly

#161 Pull this
And how many legal marriages of adult men to nine year old girls did you come up with?

Your christian roots are showing dolly, why must they be married. I provided enough evidence that the various christian churches condoned sex with girls as young as seven and in the US as young as 12 until 100 years ago. You care to disprove what I said?????

#178
But you forgot to mention that the 'continously traceable ancestry' is in fact entirely due to the Islamic scholars who preserved and developped this ancient knowledge whilst Europe was going through the 'dark' ages!

This is simply untrue. Muslims were responsible for preservation of Aristotle's works, but not much more. And Aristotle's recovered works were instrumental in the West's development of science; within a hundred years the West was in the midst of a scientific revolution that is still going strong. What did the Muslims do with Aristotle's texts that is even remotely comparable?

But the West did some preserving of their own. In fact, an entire book was written on that subject titled "How the Irish Saved Civilization":

http://www.amazon.com/Irish-Saved-Civilization-Thomas-Cah...

This is a read I highly recommend, especially for Westerners who think that all other Westerners are a pack of vicious fools.

Doliwav

You my bro, bro? You talkin' the talk, bro.

Maybe you and me can mosey on down to the bar and crack open a bud and talk to ourselves. Ah, sorry, talk to each other.

Sound like a reversed "divide and conquer" scenario to me. Bad immigration policies, racial tension building up into racism. Then let the most powerful spiritual leader through a match on it. Almost a recipe for what the Bible refers to as Armageddon.

Infidel, Dar ul harb

There is nothing wrong with being a homophobe.

174. thatscottishwoman 2

Since the Catholic church and European civilisation share over a thousand years of history, I think it would be very surprising if the pope didn't have an interest in what happens to Europe!

You posted an interesting article but as a Muslim who doesn’t even live in Europe, Nadia Mushtaq Abbasi is hardly someone whose advice we should trust.

If I understand your post correctly, you’re suggesting it would be a good thing for Scotland to have more Muslims than it already has. I apologise if I have misunderstood your meaning but nothing could be more absurd. We already have had several instances of attempted terrorism and several race based murders (hardly reported by the press) with the relatively small numbers of Muslims we already have. We already have streets where white people are unwelcome. As the number of Muslims in Scotland increases, we should look to the present reality of race and religious relations in England to see what we can expect here in the future. Race riots, political demonstrations, so many terrorist suspects that the security services admit they can’t track them all, successful acts of terrorist murder, policemen and women shot and stabbed, mosques preaching anti-white (and anti-Jewish) hatred, ethnic ghettoes filled with unemployment and hostility towards outside society, lower work force rates of participation, lower standards of education, higher dependency on social welfare, Islamic extremist infiltration of the Metropolitan police, heroin dealing, calls to “behead those who insult Islam”, chopping up a white girl to sell as kebabs, social welfare funded jihadis and generally, the end of the homogenous, socially cohesive national family which created the industrial revolution and the greatest empire in the world. This really can’t be what you want for Scotland?

178. prout, france

Ancient Greek knowledge was never lost to Europe as Dunnyveg says. The most important teachings were preserved through Christian monasteries throughout the dark ages. Certainly, some of the Renaissance scholars referred to texts in Arabic for knowledge of the ancient world, so what?

As it happens, I studied the history of mathematics and Islamic achievement in mathematics was quite modest for such a vast civilisation. Much of what you claim as Islamic scientific advances are trivial or appropriated from earlier civilisations.

Direct quotations from M. Kline – Mathematical Thought from Ancient to Modern Times (Oxford University Press, 1972, p 196-197)

“Mathematics was studied by the Arabs mainly to further the few sciences they pursued, not for its own sake. Nor did they study science for its own sake. They were not interested in the Greek goal of understanding the mathematical design of nature or in comprehending God’s ways, as were the medieval Europeans”

“Arabs made no significant advance in mathematics. What they did was absorb Greek and Hindu mathematics”

You use the word superstitious, what do you mean?

You raise an interesting point vis a vis rights.

Universalism versus cultural relativism.

Expand your argument please.

Let's look at lefty superstitions like this: How are we all going to be equal when we're all different? For instance, you may be better at, say, accounting and I may be better at, say, painting pictures.

The same holds true for universal rights. For instance, we in the West tend to strongly embrace religious rights (i.e., the right to practice any, or no, religion). Would the Muslims embrace a similar right? Muslims increasingly tend to believe they have a right to live under Sharia law. Would you consider that to be a right? No, rights are culture-specific; what's important to one people isn't to another.

I do believe that every culture has a right to maintain its customs and traditions, and to exclude those they deem a threat, including all of the Western nations. But I'm not a cultural relativist. A cultural relativist is one who, in true radical egalitarian fashion, believes that all cultures are equal. This is simply untrue. For instance, no cultures allow for more personal freedom than the US and UK. No cultures have done more for, say, cuisine than the French and Italians. And no culture has produced the sublimely harmonious landscapes of the Buddhist Japanese. Instead of trying to erase true cultural diversity, we ought to be reveling in it.

Dolivaw

xin loi, sweet chariot
Comin' for to carry us home

You remember, doli, don't you? Tell me you do doli.

Some interesting reading on islam, dont mind the medium.

http://www.chick.com/reading/comics/0117/0117_allinone.asp

160. Dougie - Edinburgh

You use a poll that suggested that 58% of muslims were of the opinion that, in your words, bliar was “a lot” to blame for the London bombings.

See? Isn't that fantastic that these people have managed to retain their faith while blending into the 'uk' society to the point where they agree with the non muslims!

188. Dunnyveg,

"For instance, we in the West tend to strongly embrace religious rights (i.e., the right to practice any, or no, religion). Would the Muslims embrace a similar right?"

Well, under Saddam, Iraq was secular and there are many thousands of christians in Iran, who are not being called terrirsts.

Not sure about Saudi Arabia and Kuwait.

184. Cyberyan, Canada

Don't shoot the messenger just because it's bad news

191. Väinämöinen
I do not support Blair in any way but how smart is it that we've allowed the immigration of a foreign community into our country who thinks it's justifiable to murder us if our country's foreign policy is not to their liking?

#192

I agree, and that's one of the reasons I thought the Iraq War was lunacy on stilts. But I disagree with your implicit point. Do you know who Sayyid Qutb was?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qutb

Qutb was the first radical Islamist, and was executed by Nasser back in the sixties. Qutb felt sorry for Westerners because we believe in separation of church and state. The entire concept is anathema to good Muslims, and this is one of the reasons so many Muslims disliked Hussein.

If you want me to believe most Muslims are budding secularists, you'll have to show me some good evidence.

Immigration is fine if it is legal and does not destroy that countries culture. Unfortunately this is what the muslims do, but they along with the jews and christians are only the puppets. The problem is their puppet masters which are the same entities, they just call themselves by many names.

194. Dougie

Well, it depends on how far back in time you want to go.

The Angles, Saxons and Normans thought it justifiable to kill and they are still in scotland. Romans, too. (Note that their army was mostly non Roman---bit like the USA army today, no?)

The idiots who are bombing normal everyday people are IMO, a) just as awful as Bliar/Bush and Pull-my-Cheney and b) plain dumb. Dumb to the point that I have to seriously consider they are aided in some way by folk who want war, of any religious background. Their activities are making it very hard for the people who share their faith.

These clowns, Dougie, represent
a tiny minority of muslims. I lived with muslims, i went to college with muslims (all in Portobello!). A fraction, tiny number, were religious lunatics who would go as far bombing normal folk.

Besides, they should target property of elites, not us. We are not the enemy and MUSLIMS are not ours. The enemies ar eclowns on BOTH sides. It's our responsibility as rational human beings (of any religious or ethnic hue) NOT to fall into the trap of 'divide and conquer'.

#183
No need to apologize you got it right the first time DICK. Ah sorry - bro.

195. Dunnyveg

Well, most muslims live in non muslims states and have done so for as long as there has been the (ugly) notion of nation states.

If they identify with a faith, then it's natural for some of them, especialy the young males, to feel aggreived about the attacks on other muslims but also the rampant islamophobia (I hate the term as much as it's meaning, but it saves time) that is passing for journalism these days. It's like saying all Irish are bad because of the IRA/UDA etc.

If Iraq/Iran had carrots and not oil and Afghanistan was not where it is, we would not be having this discussion.

What a pile of crap this islam piffle is! You really have to be stupid to believe it, just look at the muslim countries, they really are living in the dark ages!

#198 re #183
Hey at least I gave you the benefit of the doubt.

However this islam piffle does appear perfect if you want to control people, dress women like bats and fiddle with goats!
The world would be a safer place without islam and the nutter who follow this death cult.

Dougie
#197 wrote
These clowns, Dougie, represent
a tiny minority of muslims. I lived with muslims, i went to college with muslims (all in Portobello!). A fraction, tiny number, were religious lunatics who would go as far bombing normal folk.

Besides, they should target property of elites, not us. We are not the enemy and MUSLIMS are not ours. The enemies ar eclowns on BOTH sides. It's our responsibility as rational human beings (of any religious or ethnic hue) NOT to fall into the trap of 'divide and conquer'.

Don’t believe a word he says he’s pulling your chain he said in #192 “Not sure about Saudi Arabia and Kuwait.” What a crock! He KNOWS what goes on there and if he doesn’t he isn’t entitled to the opinion he has because it’s based on limited knowledge.

196. neutralenergy1

Well, look into Islam history and you will find that the faith migrated really well because IT DID adopt to the local societies it permeated. Look closer and you will find that the extremes we associate with Islam (ta, western press) actually were christian in origin.

Also, culture is never static . States are staticvand divide us. Culture develop and link us.

Islam is bad we are good..blah blah blah... it sounds very much like the brainwashing propaganda and rhetoric endlessly spewed from our politicians and tv's.
you shouldn't be surprised though, coming from the perpetrators of the biggest lie This is just another attempt to affirm that lie and make us think we are separate from God and each other.
well i got news for you Monsignor Georg Gaenswein - people are waking up, your time is over. God bless you

203. dolivaw

Jesus, who's rattled you cage?

The ref to Saudi and Kuwait was a sarcastic swipe! IE: They are 'our' guys doing all the abuse and torure and clamping down on other religions, but 'good guys'.

You okay today, Dolivaw?

197. Väinämöinen

Certainly our ancient ancestors thought it was justifiable to kill. The post Roman invitation to Anglo-Saxon tribes to settle in Eastern England was a disaster for the existing population and should be a warning to us now.

I'm not convinced that Jihadi terrorists are all just "plain dumb". In Israel most suicide bombers indeed seem to be gullible people who are manipulated by cynical extremists. However in Western Europe, many are actually from amongst the most educated. The large Pew poll I referred to in post 160 confirms that the most successful tend to be the most zealous.

I keep hearing it's a "tiny minority of Muslims" responsible for extremism. Certainly it's a tiny minority who are actually planting bombs or driving their gas-laden truck at queues of people. But it's quite obviously not just a "tiny minority" who sympathise with this behaviour. I've posted several polls of opinion in 56, 158, 160 demonstrating that murderous extremism is very common amongst Muslims in Britain.

205. Sashinka,

As an atheist to a believer, "well said"

Dick "puller" Cheney
you said
Seeing as you are so interested in branding historical figures as pedophiles lets not leave out the majority of US states, who up until 1914 had legal ages of consent of between 10 and 12. Thats the majority of american society.

lets correct one or two of your points there is only
one historical figure that I have an interest in that is man called Muhammed my gripe if you like is Islam
what you say the ages of consent are slighty misleading in the koran a man can marry a girl of six but can only have sexual relations with her when she is nine Koranic law! the absolute word of god, the truth and cannot be changed. to do so is apostacy, death!

you will find no equal in the bible!

I assume that these states you mention inacted these ages of consent through their respective state
goverments and not through the divine belief that they were commanded by god himself to do so. as in the case Koran thats the difference! and has you have pointed out these practices were brought to an end, this cannot happen in the Koran muslim cannot unlike the american states change the law hence! they remain in the 7th century

I have said before I would hang all paedophiles
muslim, catholic priests black white and other, colours creeds any child abuser I do not profess to be of any faith.spare me the lecture on christian/Roman it is irrelivant all three religions have a murky past only Islam has not moved out of the 7th century all muslim, moderate, extremist, terrorist read the same holy book the Koran yet all interpretate it differently bin laden says it says kill and that is what he does. when making comparisons between christian and muslim beliefs/laws for example religious courts we have them in Saudi today and people argue
the christian had them too! correct but there are no christian courts today that serves up stonnings flogging beheading cut of hands feet as punshmen

When the bullets start flying all this atheist stuff will be out the window!
In my trade we have the line, 'you'll not find an atheist in a fire fight'

199. Väinämöinen
Many of the states Muslims live in are secular because a secular elite is prepared to violently oppose the popular desire for theocratic rule. Algeria is a good example -it's widely acknowledged that a democratic election there would return a regime which would impose theocratic rule. Likewise several Gulf states where corrupt oligarchies use oppression to protect their privilege. Even in relatively advanced Turkey, the threat of a military coup restrains an Islamicist government.

210. Bike man

Hi again, Finnking here.

I seriously doubt I would convert in a fire fight, been so long since I rejected the notion. Call it "nature" when things get tough!

#206
You write “I lived with muslims, i went to college with muslims (all in Portobello!).” what does that mean? That because you went to college with them they must be OK? May I suggest people give thought to the last serial murderer they read reports about? The interview with the neighbors pops up and when asked the inevitable question the answer is invariably the same “gee… we knew him for fifteen years and he just seemed like a regular guy”. I submit that your observations at college were something less than revealing.

211. Dougie - Edinburgh

Well, okay, I get your point, to a point ;-)

Okay, so you and I have a choice: we go against all muslims, demonise them collectively (Hitler tried that with another group) or we can reach out and tell muslims (many of whom are Scots) we are with them, as humans.

The first option will simply make things worse and the second, patronising it may be, will reduce the likelihood of them attempting to adopt Sharia Law. Note VERY few Muslims in Scotland prior to all this ANTi islam stuff would ever consider Sharia law, they would laugh at the idea. The VAST majority of folk who are 'muslims' just want to get on with theri lives, just like you and me. They are no different to the Protestants who arrived in Scotland, the Methodists or the Budists.

It's the idiots in our midst who we should be fighing. The Christians lunatics that go bombing as well as the Islamic lunatics who go bombing. None of them have sincere faith.

Wow... wait a minute.

You bomb and kill countless numbers of civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq, yet they are the evil ones?

How many wars have Britain and the US been in the last 50yrs.?

How many times has Iran started a war the last 300yrs?

Hypocrites are the worst!

Now, say this out loud;

"We are the true face of evil"

#215
From one of the "idiots in our midst"

Since 911 I have read allot of the statements put about by Muslim groups that “condemn” violence but there are caveats galore in ALL of them. The condemnation is always against murdering “innocent” people. They all go on to say that “Islam is a religion of peace” which are false and hollow words - the key words missing in ALL the statements I’ve read should go something like this:

If you become aware of any acts of violence against anybody, not just the innocent, then please call this number XXX XXX XXXX and you can leave your information anonymously. Stop the violence!

The above SIMPLE statement has never been made anywhere but even if it was made it would still be without value unless it was followed by action in the Muslim community. When you stand aside and allow these crimes to take place you are as guilty as the people who committed them. Dougie don’t be lured in to his BS.

212. Väinämöinen
you said#
We, the people of all faiths, colour etc need to join together to stop the clowns in our misdt killing us

i say#
bang on my friend. And it's happening, people are joining together (as if we ever weren't!). Love will prevail, there can be no other outcome

214. dolivaw,

"I submit that your observations at college were something less than revealing"

Not at all. The Shah had just been deposed; most interesting times at college. All the Iranains stopped screwing around, drinking beer etc. This is part of my main point. The PEOPLE, normal everyday folk like me, went to Mosque now and then but still wanted to have a good time. I agree that the Ayatola's new power changed how they behaved, through fear, it seemed to me. However, in Scotland, when given the choice, most of them continued the faith while having a ball. IE they did what most Irish Catholics did when they came to Scotland. They did what most Wee Free's did when they came to Edinburgh. They altered their behaviour to suit.

It's a tiny fraction of humans that want to cause death. Persecuting an entire faith because of such a tiny number makes it worse. It's like if Iranians thought we are all like Bliar/Idiot Boy, bizarre.

219. Sashinka

It's the only way to stop the madness. It may not happen in our lifetimes, but it will happen. The net is great step on that direction.

#217
It’s a character from a story by Isaac.

That explains allot!

See response #218 you really haven’t got a leg to stand on without #218, and for your information I do know Muslims and in conversation with them they refuse to agree to any statement that would put their fellow Muslims at risk no matter what they may have done. I can see were you learned you debate techniques - the ability to sidestep any issue along with the incredibly boring – if you can’t convince confuse method. In the end it won’t work as it each day goes by Europeans are becoming JUSTIFYABLY sick of the obfuscation. If Muslims can’t sign on to so simple and humane an effort, and follow through with action, then they are not the people you think they are and you have been made a fool of not by Europeans but by your breakfast mates.

218. dolivaw

No, dolivaw (what does that mean?), you are not one of the "idiots in our midst" (should have been plural).

I'm referring to the Bliars/CLintons/Idiot Boys, not you.

Yes, the Muslim community does condemn violence, you are right. But to say that 'they' stand aside and let it happen is stretching it a lot. I repeat, there are idiots on ALL sides in this current situation.

Now, ask yourself this, what will HELP the local Muslim community report or simply not engage in violence against the normal folk like you and I? a) We comdemn them all and create an 'us' and 'them' situation or b) 'we' engage with them and all other people within communities and break down the barriers? Which method will have better, longer lasting, effect?

If you bring it this debate to it's simplest form, It's white vs brown with strongly opposing ideologies. We've been fighting against each for almost 1700 years. If you think this will change because you think are your enlightened, need a serious wake up call.

222. dolivaw

Side step an issue? Where?

I'm sorry you have had negative experiences of people of a certain faith. I haven't.

Europe?

500 million folk, most, I would say, agnostic or atheist with 40 million Muslims. 8%.

So, dolivaw, will they conduct a coup? Military take over? Maybe a mass rebellion? Do you know how many legal systems there are nowadays in Europe? It would be impossible for one religious group to take over.

Besides, as I stress, the VAST majority of folk who happened to be brought up with the Muslim faith (of one of many sub hues) have and continue to merge into European multi cultural society.

Why are you getting nippy?

224. Cyberyan

I disagree. "We" have not been fighting each other. Certain tw*ts within our respective communities have been using 'us' to fight for 'them' against each other using religious affiliation as a motivator to mask the real reasons based on avarice.

#223 #225
Obfuscation, sidestepping and a failed attempt to confuse people. I hope everyone is reading what he has written – he will not even endorse and commit to a simple and humane statement. I challenge ANYONE here to demand the same of any Muslim or Muslim group and you will greeted by the same refusal to endorse the following statement and act on it.

If you become aware of any acts of violence against anybody, not just the innocent, then please call this number XXX XXX XXXX and you can leave your information anonymously. Stop the violence!

I disagree with the above comments that religion is either irrelevant or harmful. There has never been any evidence throughout recorded history of a moral society existing without religious underpinnings. Societies sans religion are guided by rationality. This rationality must always lead to the ultimate, observable view that "might makes right." In the absence of some Great Universal Judge who will ultimately redress all injustices with equity, things will be decided by the man with the most gunpower, or wealth, or charisma. We see, daily, what a mess rational man is making, and has made, of things!

It is not likely that Islamic culture will replace Western culture in Europe, unless the Great Timid Solons allow Sharia to become an established part of the legal code. Establishment of Sharia in Europe will guarantee a new Dark Age, from the European perspective, in the lifespan of one subsequent generation. In the absence of Sharia, there will likely be intercultural amalgams -- some positive and some not. On balance, since intelligence is distributed in the manner of a bell-shaped curve, and folks from other lands bring with them a socioeconomic pallet rich in the many hues of diversity, the resulting amalgams should be in time: invigorating, exciting, and as fresh as the air after a revitalizing, spring rain!

222. dolivaw

I wrote: "the VAST majority of folk who happened to be brought up with the Muslim faith (of one of many sub hues) have and continue to merge into European multi cultural society."

I should have said that Euro Muslims are as 'european' as I am. There's no deep seated religious division with most Europeans; to the point of killing others because of it. We are all folk and those of a Muslim faith are ot the only ones with ars*holes prentending to share the faith.

224 cyberyan
exactly, duality.. it's what life is about, not just this debate. And 'this will change' not because i think i'm enlightened, but because things change

#229
You're avoiding the issue at hand and showing to everyone the true colors of a Muslim, whether you are or not yourself you know full well that a Muslim will never endorse the words I wrote and I submit the reason is becoming clearer all the time. In the past Muslims have had no reasonable opportunity to make gains in Europe but with low birthrates on one side and high birthrates combined with immigration on the other - the chance, not the guarantee, of success increases.

This is the outcome of all you Euroyouth deciding to not have children. Fine, but look what you've done to the land of our ancestors...

232. Väinämöinen

Troll

231. dolivaw

"You're avoiding the issue at hand "

Eh?!!!??? Explain.

Well, what can I say? If you sincerely believe that ALL muslims want to create a Muslim state wherever they are, then I cannot change your opinion. It's couldn't be further from my experiences living in Europe: various countries.

If you sincerely belive that ALL 40 million muslims in Europe are fervently copulating in order to create a majority, well, okay, if that's what you think, I would simply point out that that is called democracy, no?

Väinämöinen posted this on an article that had nothing to do with Gays.

Gays that ingest feces can also result in typhoid fever, herpes, and cancer. One study found that 10% of the gays with some of these infections (including amoeba, giardia, and shigella) “were employed as food handlers in public establishments” (New Engl J. Med., 1980, 302:45-48).

A January-June 1991 CDC report found that 66% of the hepatitis A cases in New York were gays. Rates for other U.S. cities were comparable (CDC Report, MMWR 1992, 41:155-64). A 1982 study noted that gays are spreading hepatitis A to the general population.

233. Hhahahhaa

"but look what you've done to the land of our ancestors..."

What have 'we' done to Europe?

Thanks for the Euroyouth bit! Mää oon vänhä mies!

Oh, God, out they come. Must be late.

Off to my pit. Night!

#235
Endorse and commit to the following simple and peaceful statement – nell would you sign this statement? I know a multitude of Christians that have signed similar statements without hesitation I know a multitude of atheists that have signed similar statements; you aren’t an anarchist are you?

If you become aware of any acts of violence against anybody, not just the innocent, then please call this number XXX XXX XXXX and you can leave your information anonymously. Stop the violence!

lmao@238.Väinämöinen

Väinämöinen
Come on man it doesn't even mention Islam or Muslim there is no guilt associated with it - which is one of the objections Muslims have raised. It’s just a simple commitment to do the smallest thing possible to stop violence – make a phone call.

I will post this on every thread here to educate people on the true nature of Islam and Muslims, you will NOT find one Muslim group to endorse and commit to the following simple commitment to preventing violence:

If you become aware of any acts of violence against anybody, not just the innocent, then please call this number XXX XXX XXXX and you can leave your information anonymously. Stop the violence!

Väinämöinen - What history book have you been reading from?

Sashinka - Then there's reality! I hope for peace but the chess pieces are being set and for a global conflict, like our not someone is about to call out check mate. We like to think of ourselves as progressive but yet human nature gets the better of us. Individual rationality is different form collective rationality. Multiculturalism does not work, you only end up with a population who is resentful and eventually it boils over into hatred. Once the hatred sets in all is needed is the right catalyst to ignite the fire. The Popes statement as is a match that is indented to start of fire.

side comment - Muslim take over is not going to happen what you need to be concern with is gang warefare.

Why are the borders allowed to fall around the world for immigration?

Is there really a connection between the Catholic Church and Islam? I find this very interesting that this comes from a Chatolic Papal aide.

After the Popes reiteration of the primacy of the pope, maybe there is a larger agenda to mislead.

The is interesting.

listen to audio from CD - Islamic - Catholic Connection Tuesday, July 17, 2007:

http://arcticbeacon.com/audio/2007/2007-LRN/07-2007-LRN/

and watch Video from Jordan Maxwell on Google video to connect the dots why Eurpoe is blending with the Muslim world and the US is overrun with latin Catholic immigrants.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=83948448111053903...

No, #244 - I rather fancy that very few of those murders in the US are done by anyone who might be considered, or consider themselves, 'Christian'.

Modern Islam, on the other hand actually encourages murder of non believers and so-called apostates.

Does modern Christianity have any such directive?

Seems like Georg Gaenswein is a real peacemaker, in the Bush/Blair tradition.

What good will ever come out of such stupid comments by a supposed man of the cloth?

I am really worried abbout the Muslim take over of Europe. It actually scares me. Why don'tou Eurpoeans take back what is rightlfully yours?

247. buzz1969

What, the rest of the world?

#186 Dougie:

"You posted an interesting article but as a Muslim who doesn’t even live in Europe, Nadia Mushtaq Abbasi is hardly someone whose advice we should trust."

I don't think that the author's country of residence is an issue. The point of the link was to put forward another "solution" for consideration. Her points are shared by many (myself included).

"If I understand your post correctly, you’re suggesting it would be a good thing for Scotland to have more Muslims than it already has."

Scotland has an ageing population and a skills shortage. We need to address this. This involves, amongst other things, ensuring that all our young people, irrespective of their ethnicity or religion, are afforded equal access to the opportunities necessary to enable them to reach their potential.

Furthermore, if we are to stem the growth of the current parallel society of disenfranchised young people, including, but not exclusive to, Muslim youth, then we have to look at ways of engaging with them, ways that allow them to find and assert a positive role within both community and state. Ways that recognise the individual's right to practice their faith within the boundaries of a secular state.

250. thatscottishwoman 2

Or just get rid of the state.

;-)

Good morning to you!

#188 Dunnyveg:

"Let's look at lefty superstitions like this: How are we all going to be equal when we're all different? For instance, you may be better at, say, accounting and I may be better at, say, painting pictures."

By all different all equal I mean that we all have the right to be accepted and respected for who we are.

"Universalism versus cultural relativism."

In terms of rights cultural relativism is based on the theory that there are no universally valid moral principles and, more extremely or absolutely, that All moral principles derive their validity from cultural acceptance.

The cultural relativist view, held by some states, is that universalism is nothing more than an attempt to impose western modernity and its values and beliefs on southern, ethnocentric, nations who afford tradition and custom a higher value. Meaning that it is impossible to disagree with the values (traditions and customs) of our society vis a vis that even discrimination or oppression on grounds of political or religious belief would be acceptable if society approved of them.

Key advocates of cultural relativism include China and some Muslim states:

"In China rights are not endowed by nature but depend on class status and are granted by leaders whose interpretation of society’s interest determines what rights can be given at any specific time and to whom. Rights given today can be taken away tomorrow in accordance with changing circumstances and a changing party line”.

Source: Ho Yu, C, Chinese Ethics and Universal Human Rights, (1990)

“The secular discourse on human rights undermines Islam by negating, in the name of universalism, the right of Muslims to cultural specificity…. It is not surprising then that some Muslims regard the human rights movement a p

.....Continued

Conversely universalists believe that all human rights are universal, indivisible and interdependent and interrelated. They are all of equal value and they apply to everyone.

Universalists hold the view that an ethical, rights based society is one in which each person is guaranteed a decent and dignified life and opportunities for personal development, but is also guaranteed freedom of expression, freedom of political association and freedom to practice (or change) their religion or belief. Meaning that, as outlined in 1.8 of the Vienna Declaration, “… the promotion and protection of human rights and fundamental freedoms at the national and international levels should be universal and conducted without conditions attached”.

Universalism versus Cultural Relativism is much debated in the rights arena. Both sides are likely to be right. The bottom line is respect for the dignity of all people and their right to survive on their own terms. At the very least, we are asked to respect their right to participate in the growing international dialogue about the nature of the laws that will be applied to them and purports to speak to their beliefs and needs. This is a right that everyone demands. How do we, sensitively and respectfully, challenge the current groundswell of alternative cultural specific “universals”, such as China’s assertion that the issue of human rights is essentially a subjective matter within a country’s sovereignty and the International Symposium on Human Rights in Islam (2000) and the resultant Rome Declaration which, though not necessarily intended to, have the potential to weaken or dilute the underpinning principles of human rights and their mechanisms?

Implicit in the quest for consensus is some degree of compromise on both, or all sides, facilitated through cross cultural dialogue and debate. Cross cultural dialogue crosses over pure universalist notions of rights readily discernable to all and allows a re

#251 Väinämöinen:

Good morning to you.

"Or just get rid of the state."

Aye! Come the day:-)

All things are connected. Freedom and Love of neighbor are connected. Slavery and hate of neighbor are connected. The choice is ours. Christianity PROPOSES... it does not IMPOSE... All things are connected, but all things are not equal..whether they be religions, cultures, values... only people are equal, but different.

#245
The truth will set you free - admit it you are not an anarchist you are a Muslim.

#244
You make a good point – in an effort to keep I short I neglected to say it should be endorsed by all that’s why there is within it no mention of any religion. I have shown this and statements similar to Christian, atheists and on and on none of whom had a problem supporting it.

Last paragraph – are you serious? Though true its implication is ridiculous. There is not an organized group of murderers here who are dedicated to the proposition of targeting thousands of non-combatants for death. I’ll leave 911 alone and just react to the goals stated by Al-Qaeda. What prompted my “litmus test” is the fact that there are many Muslim organizations here that have put out statements voicing their commitment to peace that go on page after page after page and say nothing about what there members can do stop the violence, just saying I like peace isn’t going to get it.

Väinämöinen says I’m a Nazi but I wonder if the missing children that have been rescued here in the US by laws enacted to protect them would feel the same way. When a child goes missing here under the right circumstances the New Media broadcasts pertinent information to the Public to help get the issue resolve promptly. The request to the public is basically: if you have any information that would help find this missing child please call – then a phone number is given. This is all my statement is asking – of everyone not just Muslims. I don’t consider either effort to be the effort of a Nazi.

BTW if I may ask, where are you from? I’m not trying to be insulting but some of the things you say about the US seem naïve.

#257
Sorry about all the typos.

#53
It doesn't make any difference how many countries you've been to...if you don't have enough common sense to rationalize and process relevant information.

Those that refuse to acknowledge reality, be it stark or covert, will continue to deceive themselves with a false sense of complacency... in short, assisting and indulging their assailants with their own demise.

Väinämöinen

You keep saying over and over that it's just a "tiny minority" who are extremists - yet I've posted links to half a dozen surveys which contradict that assumption. You're clearly aware of these surveys - so why persist in this groundless cliché?

You also keep saying that with 40 million Muslims of from a European population of 500 million, there’s no danger they can take over. This misses several points.
- Muslim immigration to Europe is ongoing
- The Muslim birth-rate is between twice and three times the native birth rate.
- Muslims are not distributed evenly throughout Europe but are concentrated in particular countries.

There are very few Muslims in Poland, the Baltics, Czech, Slovakia and Hungary. There are relatively few in Scotland. In some cities however, Rotterdam, Amsterdam and Marseille for instance, Muslims will soon be a majority and are already a majority of young people. At issue is not whether Islam will later be threat to every single part of Europe. It is that Islam is already a threat to certain parts of Europe. In just a few decades – possibly our life times – much of Europe will have the same demographic profile which led Lebanon into a vicious and irresolvable civil war.

250. thatscottishwoman 2

Yes, we have an aging population and that makes Muslim immigration especially dangerous. Throughout Europe, relations between Muslim immigrants and the host populations are worsening and I for one don’t want to face the old age that young French people have to look forward to – a future where their own ethnic group will gradually becoming a minority amongst the young people in France, the hostile younger and increasingly confident Muslim population despises them and has already started a campaign of violence and intimidation against them.

Have a read of

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/13/60minutes/main6...

and

http://www.weeklystandard.com/content/public/articles/000...

then tell me that’s what we need in Scotland.

A slowly declining population has some good sides - less traffic, less pollution, cheaper housing and more space – or does that sound bad to you?

Yes, Scotland also has a skill shortage in the sense that any country’s work force would be better of higher skilled than it already is. However this would be worsened by immigration since the average level of Scottish education blows away that of any Muslim country – and it shows economically. Some Muslim countries are rich from oil revenues but compared to Scotland, none have built economies as successful as Scotland’s on the basis of its worker’s skills. Malaysia is a special case but there, it’s the Chinese population who are overwhelmingly responsible for the high technology industry rather than the politically dominant Muslims. Also in every country in Europe, the Muslim immigrants have on average poorer skills, lower incomes, lower workforce participation and higher rates of crime than the native population. In France for instance, approximately 70% of prisoners are Muslims despite there being other large minorities with a high propensity to crime.

http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2005-06/19/articl...

Most Western European countries now have Muslim ghettoes containing thousands of sullen unemployed young men. This includes countries, which have bent over backwards to integrate and educate their Muslim populations such as Netherlands, Belgium and Sweden.

Despite their younger on average population, these people are already an economic drain on the host countries. In the economies of the future where further automation has removed the lower skilled jobs where Muslims tend to be employed (even after three generations in Europe), this can only worsen.

57. Maurice

There is a big difference between Evolution...and de-evolution. Taking a 21 century civilization back to a stone age mentality like 7th century Islam is quite the opposite of evolution.

245. Väinämöinen

Please mind your language.

This is the kind of prat thatscottishwoman thinks we need more of

http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=1176962007

260. Dougie

"- Muslim immigration to Europe is ongoing"
We have been using these people for cheap labour for many years now, and are glad of the work they have done. They have bettered themselves in the process, so why shouldn't they enjoy the fruits of their labour and want their families and friends to come here and join them?

"- The Muslim birth-rate is between twice and three times the native birth rate."
That is a good thing in a declining population.

"- Muslims are not distributed evenly throughout Europe but are concentrated in particular countries."
Like Algerians in France, Turks in Germany, Pakistanis in England? We are glad to welcome them and take on the low-paid and hard jobs that our own people don't want.

"It is that Islam is already a threat to certain parts of Europe."

In what way is it a threat? Tell me.

"In just a few decades – possibly our life times – much of Europe will have the same demographic profile which led Lebanon into a vicious and irresolvable civil war."

The problems in Lebanon arise mainly from the Zionist invasion of Palestine and subsequent events, not from some jihadist insurrection as you seem to imply.

266. bill1
I have told you over again why Islam is a threat to Europe. If you want to know, read my posts. Even better, read the links I give in #261

Yes bill1
Muslim rebellion against the Christian government in Lebanon. Must be Israel's fault. Blame the Jews.

#266 bill1
Through implication you seem to be going far beyond defending the rights of Muslims in the UK, you appear to be advocating that the UK accept the inevitable fact that Great Britain is going to become an Islamic state, at some point, and non Muslims should come to terms with this reality and deal with it. True?

thatscottishwoman 2 seems to agree but says: “Ways that recognize the individual's right to practice their faith within the boundaries of a secular state.” Which suggest to me that she accepts the change over but figures there are ways to ameliorate it? I think she’s? mistaken.

267. Dougie

I've read your posts and I don't like what I read.

Those links you gave make the point that the French can't maintain law and order, and that they are racists. What has that got to do with a threat from Islam.

"Yes, we have an aging population and that makes Muslim immigration especially dangerous."

Why? Immigration is a good thing with a declining and ageing population, and Muslims are strong on family values which is no bad thing.

"Throughout Europe, relations between Muslim immigrants and the host populations are worsening and I for one don’t want to face the old age that young French people have to look forward to – a future where their own ethnic group will gradually becoming a minority amongst the young people in France, the hostile younger and increasingly confident Muslim population despises them and has already started a campaign of violence and intimidation against them."

Have you met and spoken with young French people? As a rule, they do not have the racist attitudes of their elders, and are growing up with immigrants and mix well with them, allowing for thir different cultures.

So one ethnic group is in decline and another one is growing - so what?

269. dolivaw

I'm not sure when the UK stopped being a Christian country and became secular, but it has come about since WW2. It is the choice of the people here, so we accept it.

Believe me, the UK will never become an Islamic state, I don't even consider it to be a remote possibility.

I agree with TSW that we have to find "ways that recognize the individual's right to practice their faith within the boundaries of a secular state."

#271 bill1
You got me! I had deleted the secular thing so I am at a loss how it got in there. Now I have to do some computer trouble shooting to find out what went wrong - no doubt my fault as computers don't make mistakes... right?

#271 bill1

I haven’t read all your posts, so if you stated it in the past my apologies I missed it – but are you yourself Muslim?

I don’t expect you to do something I wouldn’t do myself so… I’m 55 and was raised as a Christian but at an early age I stopped believing in god, any god. All my family, on both sides, is from various parts of the UK.

You say: ’I agree with TSW that we have to find "ways that recognize the individual's right to practice their faith within the boundaries of a secular state." I hope your right but when I look around the world at the countries that have a growing and significant minority population of Muslims the Muslims invariable first want to separate – so much for diversity – and when their numbers are high enough the want the country to transition to an Islamic state. Even if they fail on occasion it doesn’t diminish the intent of the plan. In your lifetime I agree it won’t become an Islamic state but at some point in the future who can tell? Would a Great Britain that has become an Islamic state be OK with you?

#273 Infidel
You seem to know where all the bodies are buried, so to speak, I wonder could you do some research on the problems being caused by inbreeding in Saudi Arabia?

274. dolivaw

"are you yourself Muslim?" No, Christian.

"the countries that have a growing and significant minority population of Muslims the Muslims invariable first want to separate – so much for diversity – and when their numbers are high enough the want the country to transition to an Islamic state."

I can see why they might want to do that when they are in the majority, but I don't know of any examples. Do you?

"Would a Great Britain that has become an Islamic state be OK with you?" Certainly not, but it will never happen.

#265 Dougie:

I was about to debate the points you raised at #261 and #262 however having read your comment at #265 I don't think I will bother.

#276 bill1
I place a high value on honesty – thanks for yours.

You say:
“I can see why they might want to do that when they are in the majority, but I don't know of any examples. Do you?”

Indonesia? But even if that doesn’t fit the bill, no pun intended, it’s just a matter of time – just because it hasn’t happened yet doesn’t mean the inevitable isn't already in progress.

I was more interested in your take on my last question: Would a Great Britain that has become an Islamic state be OK with you? Now or in the future.

#269 Dolivaw, #271 Bill1:

No, I am not accepting that the UK will become an Islamic State. The current majority religion in Scotland (65.1%) is Christianity but the state is secular. The fact that the majority religion might be Muslim in 50 years does not necessarily mean that the state will be Islamic.

What I am saying is that if the projected demographics are correct then we need to ensure that we are engaging the disenfranchised now so as to avoid a further growth of the current parallel society that has developed. We need to strengthen the secularism of the state whilst recognising the individual's right to practice their chosen faith with those secular boundaries. This includes no faith schools and total separation of church and state.

#277 thatscottishwoman 2
No offense intended but I was wondering - has that ego caused you problems in the past? I have no problems with a big ego - I’ve just noticed that some people have a difficult time living with them. :-)

#279 thatscottishwoman 2

You say:
“We need to strengthen the secularism of the state whilst recognising the individual's right to practice their chosen faith with those secular boundaries. This includes no faith schools and total separation of church and state.”

“The best-laid schemes o' mice an 'men
Gang aft agley”

I like what you’ve written but I think your chances of succeeding are grim at best – if you engage your plan, and it fails, are you prepared to face the loss of Great Britain?

278. dolivaw

Indonesia is not a good example; the East Timor thing was aided and abetted by USA and Australian gangsters, oil again.

I don't go along with the jihadists under the bed paranoia; if there is a real problem we'll deal with it.

For the record, I would not accept Great Britain being a state controlled by any religious group. It's bad enough being taken over by a bunch of pseudo-socialist gangsters as it is.

279. thatscottishwoman 2

"We need to strengthen the secularism of the state whilst recognising the individual's right to practice their chosen faith with those secular boundaries."

I agree entirely.

"This includes no faith schools and total separation of church and state."

I would allow private faith schools, as I would say that parents have the right even the duty to bring their children up in a religious environment of their choice.

Total separation of church and state - I think we have that already.

#282 bill1
Thanks for answering my questions bill1 its most appreciated.

Most governments can best be described as a criminal enterprise. I think it was de Tocqueville who said: "The American Republic will endure, until politicians realize they can bribe the people with their own money."

Re: Indonesia - I was thinking more 13th century.

274. dolivaw

Hi,

You say: ’I agree with TSW that we have to find "ways that recognize the individual's right to practice their faith within the boundaries of a secular state."

this is very admirable! what is the reality of it
none! the muslim states have not signed the Declaration of Human Rights! why? because they cant find any reference to it in the Koran!

The OXFORD WORLD CLASSIC THE QUR`AN
Translation byM.A.S. ABDEL HALEEM
The Qur`an is the supreme authority in Islam.
It is the fundametal and paramount source of the creed,rituals,ethnics, and laws of the Islamic religion
It is the book that 'Differentiates' between right and wrong.

so to all the people who think that you can reach
agreement on this start to read your Koran for if you cannot find mention of it some were in the holy book it is forbbiden acording to Islamic law.
It aint go to work!

#257 dolivaw

So is it the great Daneel I am conversing with?

I had a quick look over your conversations with Väinämöinen regarding the last bit of your post and saw the Issac bit :-)

As to my last paragraph.
Carried out by an organised group or an individual, murder is murder. I will grant you that not all of the murders carried out in the US are premeditated and those that are not should be discounted in relation to my statement. I would however also count the mafia and other crime gangs as organised groups.
I would presume that in a fundamentally christian country like the US, the majority of those who commmit premeditated murder would profess to a christian faith.

As to whether your litmus test makes you a nazi.
I think Väinämöinen like myself was under the impression that the test was only to be applied to muslims, you had not qualified it. The inclusion of the whole population would leave me inclined to think that it may not be fascistic,
On further thought though, the same type of test could be used to discriminate against other sections of a society/country, depending on who was asking the questions and what they were and given that slant it smacks of being very Orwellian and probably fascist, would be my own thought on it.

As to where I am from, originally Scotland but I live and work out of Manchester in England.

276. bill1
How about Bosnia, Kosovo and Lebanon?
If you want to go back further, how do you think previously Christian Egypt has become a Muslim country? Why do you think the once huge Zoroastrian religion has almost disappeared?

You may be right that Britain overall will not become a Muslim country - what will happen is that parts of it will become dominated by Islam and attempt to break off like Kosovo did and like the Muslims in the Southern Philippines are trying to do.

277. thatscottishwoman

We have a relatively small number of Muslims in Scotland and they're still trying to murder us and subvert our society. Ah ha you think. What we need is more of them! The idea is so utterly stupid I can't really understand where you're coming from.

The idea that importing people from an economically unsuccessful culture who have ideological hostility towards us are somehow going to support us in our old age is so fantastic I have to wonder if you're serious.

#285 oder
Hi to you
This thread has gotten pretty long so I don’t blame you missing it but if your read #281 I think you will see that I agree with you

283. bill1

The vast majority of white British people would totally agree that separation of religion and state is a good idea.

40% of young Muslims in Britain however, would prefer Sharia law

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007...

You know Sharia law, right? Stoning adulterers to death, chopping off limbs for theft, beheading for blasphemy, that kind of thing.

The problem with your fine theory of toleration of Muslims is that in reality, what they want and what they're going to do to our society is to destroy the possibility for tolerance ever again.

thatscottishwoman

Here's a wee arithmetic exercise for you if you think Muslim immigration is going to help our economy:

http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1102602007

If 1 in 500 Muslims are such a known terrorist danger that they must be monitored by a team of "24 and 36 highly trained staff" (of course, many terrorists aren't known at all and many others are already in prison), what economic contribution would the average Muslim need to make above the average for the native population to offset this monitoring cost and make Muslims a net economic benefit to the country?

In reality of course, they contribute less (on average) by dint of their lower earnings and lower workforce participation rate.

#286 Dick “puller” Cheney
You got it! Just remember you have me at a disadvantage as I am unable to: injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.

I am an egalitarian – what’s’ good for the goose is good for the gander. I would never ask anyone to do what I wouldn’t myself. I question the ethics and morality of anyone that would label me a Nazi who is in no position to know the first thing about me. And I know you didn’t. Without patting myself on the back too specifically I assure you the idea that I’m a Nazi goes way beyond laughable.

You say:
“On further thought though, the same type of test could be used to discriminate against other sections of a society/country, depending on who was asking the questions and what they were and given that slant it smacks of being very Orwellian and probably fascist, would be my own thought on it.”

Then it’s up to us to make sure that doesn’t happen. After all since you have discovered my identity you know I would be compelled to intervene.

290. dolivaw

was away at work as you say it has become a wee bit long, Ive re-read the post and your are correct.

287. Dougie

"How about Bosnia, Kosovo and Lebanon?"

How about them? Fine examples of interference by Israel, USA, UK, NATO and EU causing tremendous loss of life.

"If you want to go back further, how do you think previously Christian Egypt has become a Muslim country?"

Last time I looked, two minutes ago, Egypt is still a democratic republic with the three permitted rligions of Islam, Christianity, and Judaism.

291. Dougie

"40% of young Muslims in Britain however, would prefer Sharia law"

They might well prefer it, (given the hijacking of our judiciary by the criminals Blair, Brown, Goldsmith, Falconer, Irvine, assorted babes, et al) but they're not going to get it.

293. dolivaw

Accusing opponents of Nazism is a typical leftist intimidation tactic, effective since Stalin's time, to avoid needing to confront opposing argument. By undermining the credibility of political opponents with the slander of Nazism, the leftist propagandist attempts to distract attention away from his or her questionable position on the original subject.

I really don't think you need to treat this accusation so seriously!

292. Dougie

"1 in 500 Muslims are such a known terrorist danger that they must be monitored by a team of "24 and 36 highly trained staff""

These are the products of the murderous Bushblair terrorist factory, who made generations of people bent on vengeance.

bingo

296. bill1

Egypt is democratic now (to a point) but under Ottoman rule, Christianity was tyrannically oppressed and gradually declined.

What do you mean Muslims are not going to get Sharia in Britain? Sharia is already here. Look at the case where a STABBING CASE WAS RESOLVED BY SHARIA LAW!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,2102434,00.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006...

As British society gets ever more racially and culturally divided, traditional (state imposed) justice will continue to decline in effectiveness. As the population of Muslims increases, Sharia will fill the vacuum.

Bill1
Just like Bush and Blair are responsible for 9/11 eh? Just like they're responsible for the 1990s attacks on the Paris metro, for Algerians slitting babys' throats and torturing each other, for the Beslan massacre of hundreds of children, for Jihadi attacks in Saudi Arabia going back before either Bush or Blair were in power.

This includes no faith schools and total separation of church and state.

wonderful idea! were will we find it in the Koran?
tell muslims your children cant go to an Islamic faith
school, better find an alternative this will cause Jihad!

301. Dougie

No sharia law here, and there never will be.

302. Dougie

I thought we were talking about the UK. If you're going to start talking about the rest of the world, how about the millions that the west has murdered?

305. bill1
Just keep telling yourself that pal. Dinnae bother reading the articles, you ken better than any newspaper eh

305. bill1
So according to you, Britain deserves bombs going off in the London metro, and some Jihadi suicide bomber trying to incinerate Glasgow airport because BLAIR DID SOMETHING YOU DON'T LIKE????

yes they might but do you see them declaring jihad?
to prevent muslim childern from hearing the words of the Prophet in their early years will be seen as an attack islam you will enrage the muslim world wide if that were to happen.
Remember the Cartoons world wild rioting death burning down of churches threat of Jihad?and that was for making fun.
and you what to try somthing this serious?
my Koranic blinkers are fine! help me keep my eye looking straight ahead yours are clearly up your arse!

#288 Dougie:

I think you have misunderstood my comments. My posts are in response to your original "solution" posted at #119. I am refering to the Muslim community who are currently residing in the country. I am not talking, at this point in time, about further immigrants. Hence my previous quote:

"..... if we are to stem the growth of the current parallel society of disenfranchised young people, including, but not exclusive to, Muslim youth, then we have to look at ways of engaging with them, ways that allow them to find and assert a positive role within both community and state......"

My argument against your "solution" of repatriation stands in that we need to increase, not decrease, our population.

You said:

"We have a relatively small number of Muslims in Scotland and they're still trying to murder us and subvert our society."

I think you use a very broad brush when painting your picture of Scottish Muslims.

308. Dougie

We don't deserve the bombs, but the criminals that voted for the war against Iraq brought them onto us.

Blair has done a lot of things that I don't like, but that is nothing compared to the Iraqis he has murdered.

ALL:

On the subject of faith schools. Faith schools are divisive. I am of the opinion that faith is a personal matter and has no role within the education system. It's place (for teaching) is within the family and the place of worship.

Bill1:
Private faith schools are a different matter in that they are not financed directly by the state. However, they do attract charitable status so receive indirect funding therefore I do not agree that they should be the exception. I do agree that parents have the right to bring up their children within the faith but as mentioned above I think this should take place within the family or place of worship environment. So we will have to agree to disagree on this one:-)

#297 Dick "puller" Cheney
Actually I think you are referring to friend Giskard, but mistakes will always be made - all we can do is the best we can to prevent them. And I always have.

#298 Dougie
More good advice - Thanks!

#297 Dick "puller" Cheney

Regrettably - even when I muster all the power I have my ability to influence world events is just a (insert reference to obscene measure) away from zero.

315. dolivaw

Don't ever understimate the power of one person. Nothing ever got done by committee.

310. thatscottishwoman

I'm glad you're not advocating further Muslim immigration into Scotland but without rigorous measures to prevent it, immigration will continue.

I agree I'm generalising and plenty of Muslims are fine upstanding people however my comments apply to the Muslim community collectively – and collectively, they are trying to murder us, in the same way that collectively, Germany attacked Poland (although only a relatively small proportion of Germans crossed the Polish border bearing arms).

The point is that our society and Islam are already in conflict and this conflict will certainly worsen – for demographic reasons if nothing else. In the same way that millions of the people who fought for Hitler were fine people, and there are fine people on all sides of the Bosnian, Kosovan and Palestinian conflicts, in a violent conflict, all people who don’t flee must take sides and the vast majority will (understandably) side with their own race, culture and religion.

It's because ultimately, war between Muslims and natives is inevitable in Europe, even the minority of Muslims who currently bear no hostility towards us are a future danger to us. For even these individuals will be forced into supporting one side or the other as relations continue to deteriorate.

Just as few people considered their Serbian/Croatian/Bosniak identity important in communist Bosnia, people such as yourself wish to ignore the problem and hope it will disappear. Bosnia, Lebanon and Iraq demonstrate however that once relations deteriorate beyond a certain point, mutual suspicion and reciprocal grievances force everyone to take sides, in Bosnia, this even managed to split families. Since Muslims are still only a small minority in Scotland, you probably think I'm exaggerating. However in other parts of Europe, we're very close to this stage already.

It is for this reason that I think voluntary repatriation (not of every single person but to the great

#313 Daneel

I am sure friend Giskard passed what he had learned on to you, and you took over his mantle so to speak.
If memory serves you influenced the great mathematician Hari Seldon when he was setting up his foundations, especially the second one.

306. Dick "puller" Cheney

I was reading on another thread you are the Troll "Rainbird" using Dick Cheney's name in an offensive manner.

Why are you using multiple names?

No Bill.
Tony Blair set off bombs in London. Muslims did. Muslims we welcomed into our country.

317. Dougie

"The point is that our society and Islam are already in conflict and this conflict will certainly worsen"

And why's that? Because the Bushblair gang keep murdering them for their oil, that's why.

#317 Dougie:

I am not "ignoring" anything. I am well aware that we have a problem with disenfranchised young people in this country. This is why I am asserting that we need to act now to re-engage them.

Although we clearly have a different take on the causes, and potential outcomes, of this situation I think that perhaps we both want the same thing, a peaceful inclusive society that recognises and celebrates diversity and that is underpinned by a strong secular state.

317. Dougie

"I think voluntary repatriation (not of every single person but to the greatest extent practical) is a humane and prudent measure which would avoid future bloodshed."

Enoch Powell thought the same, but the idea never caught on. Rivers of blood etc, you're a bit late with your thinking.

Nitol

#316 bill1
Now there a pleasant thought – here’ to the power of one! Cheers!

#318 Dick "puller" Cheney
Quite right which from Terminus is at the other end of the Galaxy at Star’s End.

327. Dick "puller" Cheney

Make up your mind troll, on previous posts you say you're from the UK.

#327 Dick "puller" Cheney,
In the local parlance “Have a good one”

One in this case being an infinite number so it can mean anything you want it too.

327. Dick "puller" Cheney

Good night Rainbird