And quite right too

This is long awaited. No doubt prepetual doubters like AM2 will belittle it as soon as they wake up and read this edition, but this is the best thing to happen in Scottish politics for generations. Even if independence (which I support) does arrive immediately, a beefed up Parliament in Scotland will only improve our country...all these bread and butter issues that unionist parties prettle on about can only really be tackled with far greater autonomy. Once the 'opposition' parties grown up, I hope this white paper will be the begining of a grown up discussion on our country's future...

this from the article;-

Pat Watters, the president of local-government body COSLA, criticised the use of taxpayers' money. "I see little relevance in this exercise for local government and the people we deliver valuable services to. Like me

aye labours findin it hard oot there

There's nothing wrong with creeping independence if that's what the people of Scotland want. The increased powers some are suggesting for Scotland are after all nothing more than Canadian provinces already enjoy without the sky falling. There are two things I notice when reading posts on this issue in Scottish and English papers. The first is that the debate in Scotland seems to be maturing, though as in England there are still a few idiots. The second is that the English are not very happy with their lot and something of an anti foreign influence (yes that includes Scots) is brewing. So whatever the Scots do it should be done in the knowledge that the choice in Britain is not yours alone. The English will soon enough elect a British government that is overwhelmingly English in character and probably keen to let the Scots do their own thing...though with arrangements on the army etc.
The internal commentary and parochial bickering in Scotland could once again see you caught on the wrong foot. If too much time is wasted talking, the English will likely be the first to do the walking. The movement for an English parliament will only grow as Scots gains more power and English fear of foreigners grow. The more powers an autonomous Scotland has, the more it will be isolated at Westminister. Full independence or at least some kind of deal that allows the English as much opportunity as the Scots to run their own affairs is the only way forward if the British peoples are to maximize what is clearly a dissolving union of the Austro-Hungarian or Norway-Sweden variety. If the Scots bicker they risk waking up to England making the decision for them, and a hangover more of the Slovakian variety than the Czech. Alternatively perhaps a new British confederation will ensue, which would be great but that doesn't seem very likely. The more powers an autonomous Scotland has, the more it will likely be isolated at Westminister. Full independence or at least some kind of

I recall a time when the Tories were so sure of their grip on Scotland that they refused to acknowledge the need for change. This led to them being wiped out at the elections and convinced voters of the need for devolution, in order that Scotland could not be run from Westminster by a party that few Scots voted for.

Jack McConnell took the Labour Party into the recent election on a platform of no change. They even boasted in their party political broadcasts that everything was just great, a sentiment not shared by many voters I'd imagine. Now that Labour and their bedfellows the Tories are seeking to recapture the debate over Scotland's constitutional future, I wonder what they really have to offer? Will they tell us which powers they wish to withhold and why? Alex Salmond has set out his stall, now it's time to hear from the Lab/Tory coalition.

Is this guy thick or what,

Nicol Stephen, their Scottish leader, said: "The SNP obsession with independence is a road-block to consensus.

Maybe someone can take him aside and point out what the letters SNP stand for,

4 Ex pat,
yes we've seen it comming for years, the English had a vote on devolution just last year, and rejected it,
they didn't realise what could be done until the SNP started showing them, now there girning about it

#6, pehman

remember that Nicol famously stated during the election campaign that he wanted to be First Minister. It was nonsense then and it's even more transparently nonsense now. A few negative polls should start to sober up the Lib Dems and the Tories. As for Labour, I fear all is lost.

'Nicol Stephen, their Scottish leader, said: "The SNP obsession with independence is a road-block to consensus.
"The white paper is a waste of taxpayers' money. It should be withdrawn. That would allow progress to be made on the campaign to gain more powers. The SNP should join the cross-party talks on more powers for the parliament." '

Nicol Stephen has lost the plot!, Can someone remind him the name of his party. Part of the name has 'DEMOCRATIC' in it! Why is he scared of the ordinary Scots men and women reading it and seeing exactly what its about and whats to be discussed. Nicol Stephen is becoming a liability to his party. Its for the Libdems to join the conversation with the SNP, after all the White paper also includes some of the Libdem suggestions on Federalism

#9 AM2
It should matter what the cost is or who is paying for it. The important thing is that the Scots in the street are being included in the discussion and is not something that is to be carved up by certain political parties behind closed doors!

#11 AM2
Quite simple really
A referendum ballot paper setting out three questions
1. Status quo
2. Devolution MAx (to be agreed by the unionist parties)
and 3. Independence (as outlined by the SNP)

Simple and to the point, no confusion

To #4
You have put a lot of thought in to your post and I commend you for it. Your analysis, as far as I am
concerned, is right on.

'Cathy Jamieson, deputy leader of the Scottish Labour Party, said: "Conversation is fine, but we don't support independence. The people of Scotland don't want it, nor do we.
"No-one should be under any illusion; today's white paper is about breaking up the UK, not making Scotland better." '
Sorry Cathy , perhaps you should read it before shooting off, I think what you want to read is Chapter two of the paper

#6. pehman, sussex

It's not his fault, he's British, a Unionist, a "mainstream" politician.

The concept of a political party "doing what it says on the tin" is totally alien to him.

#15 AM2
No actually its partly what the LibDems have been proposing, perhaps you should read Chapter 2
The white paper is more about consensus
SNP clearly state what they would like to see, but they also put forward what the other parties might want to see

#12. All discussions with the public, outside of elections, are worthless and can easily be manipulated. A total waste of money. Is Salmond allowed to spend this money on something which is clearly beyond his remit?

#20 Royster
You see I prefer that the public are given evry single opportunity of finding out exactly what is going on, unfortunatley we have a heavily bias media. So at least having this conversation with Scots men and women in Scotland will go a long way of explaining the proposals. Its up to the other parties to also partisipate in the conversation, without resorting to negativity and puting there view forward as succinctly as they can.
Its actually an extension of how the Scottish Government works and has worked since it was established in 1999. Its called open government

AM2 - Whinge whinge whinge

I see you have NOTHING constructive to add to the debate - as usual scary stories of doom and gloom from you.

If you want to talk about wasted tax payers money - look no further than Westminster matey - NHS computer system, Pensions Credit system, Tax Credit system, etc etc.

Didn't your mother tell you that "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones".

Keep your negative thoughts, me, well I have a much more positive outlook on my country's future.

This is one of the least horrid photos of Mr Salmond The Scotsman has used, but are we to think that he has just caused Nicola Sturgeon to disappear?

Raise the standard! Call out the Clans!
we'll all fight for Scotland!
And i'll be in the front line ok!
But not for all this tosh!
Scotland is Sovereing nation GOD SAVE THE QUEEN!
That of course is the Queen of Scotland who also happens to be the Queen of our British Isles.
Try and get rid of her as Monarch of Scotland, and the Clans will rise!
GOD SAVE SCOTLAND AND HER RIGHTFUL QUEEN.

Great stuff. Of course Alex has his work cut out convincing the doubters.

Of course if the last election is anything to go by the unionist partys are too hopelessly split to co-operate, and the unionist voters too apathetic to vote.

# 23 AM2 said
"Salmond has become a Master of Machiavellianism. Caveat emptor!"

As far as I can see he's only said exactly what was on the tin before the election.

So again, more negative comments from you.

#26 linplum, just south of the border
Sorry, but suggest you read the white paper
the monarchy is not under threat

Give him time! #30

So you want a government that only does what's in the manifesto?

#27 AM2
Just to remind you
He is the First Minister and he leads an SNP Government.
In case you were not aware, under the articles of the Scottish Parliament, it is to be open to all and accessable to ALL
So FM Salmond is not doing anything that the previous Firstt Ministers havent done before
And before you say they didnt, Ill remind you that Parliament has been 'taken on the road' before

#32 linplum, just south of the border
Have you actually read the white paper?????

Why don't you folk gang aft tae yer scratchers and leave the world tae darkness and the folk in Canada and the Gannetic Cornball in Californica?

#31 AM2

Grow up AM2!

A manifesto is about the aims of a party in government, how the party would govern, and what they would deliver.
I also have the manifesto in front of me, so please don't try and be 'clever' with me!

Talking of 'real issues' I see that all of the pledges made regarding the first 100 days in power have now been achieved. Any thoughts on that?
For the first time that I can remember a government has delivered on what it said it would.

You must agree that this can only make the electorate start trusting politicians again after Bliar or tax conning Brown?

I look forward to your usual 'cut & paste/Scare Story/Doom & Gloom' reply.

I like Salmond. He always talks of ways of making the country better.

When you read about the Labour, and the libs, they always talk in terms of how they can 'stop the nats'.

I ask myself, Do I want follow Gordon browns' plans which are solely to enable him to stay in power, or am I inspired by the SNP plans which are for the good of Scotland?

#37 AM2
Now that did bring a smile to my face
Sorry to disapoint, but no
Lets just say, Im old Labour

#36 AM2

Sorry but that old 'why is everybody picking on me' routine you spout out isn't going to work on me!

I did not imply that nationalism was positive or unionism was negative. Let me remind you of what I said:
"Keep your negative thoughts, me, well I have a much more positive outlook on my country's future."

You need to stop reading between the lines matey, or at least stop getting paranoid.

You comments are, and have always been so so negative towards Scotland as an independent nation.

It is YOU who are negative and your acidic comments are well noted.

Why are you so angry??? If this forum is a vent for your anger then I'm very happy for you, whatever rocks your boat.
BUT please don't put down my home country.

#42 AM2
Thats something I agree about, actually the whole of chapter 2 in the white paper I agree about, mind you I also agree about chapter 3 ;-)

The strange thing is; there is now almost unanimity that the parliament should have more powers and that the basic princible of more self government is good, Yet amongst the unionists (who supposedly represent 'the majority') the belief in the union has an almost superstitious ferocity to it; yet what is independence but the logical outcome of giving the parliament more powers?

#42 AM2
Well there was a time that most of Scottish Labour were for an Independent Scotland, right up until John Smith. It was John Smith who wanted Scotland to be devolved to the level thats in chapter 2. But when he died, so did Labour. Enter Tony and Gordon and a very watered down version of Devolution and there control freakery

I don't think there's much real affection for the union in this country. Most Scots regard it as a national humiliation of some sorts, even if they're afraid of throwing it off.

The SNP government has been a breath of fresh air to this country, because it has shown the power of positive thinking. By simply being the driving force for more powers, Salmond has scored a great success, because the more powers the Scottish parliament has, the more an imaginative forward thinking government can do with them and convince people of the benefits of 'taking the plunge' towards full independence.

Don't feed the troll.

hamish macdonell,
kindly tell us who the opposition are, and what is their collective worth to scotland . we have for the last 300 years been led by the nose by angletere and to date had no apology from them.
the opposition are to date , a bunch of discredited
self-serving puppets. what credibility would you bestow on them in this issue? please let us know a.s.a.p. and oblige.

#51 AM2

You prove to me that they have not been achieved.

See it's very easy to twist facts.

So, put your nose back into joint and your thumb back in your mouth.

Just because you can't find them using Google doesn't mean they don't exist.

You're a Google Merchant, go on admit it...

Remember 'procession of a little information can be dangerous'.

Sooner or later, nationalist elements within the Labour, Liberal and Tory party are going to make their voices heard. The standard pronouncements from the Tories are almost a joke; Remember McLetchie saying that 'if youre going to talk about the economic case for independence you might as well just give it to the SNP'? The Tories have a cultural attachment to unionism-but at the same time, it goes against all their instincts for libertarianism, self-reliance, self-dependency etc.

#51 AM2

PS

Those not listed in the first 100 days.

Get your facts right before you come over all sanctimonious.

Well done,SNP.A 3 year national conversation almost person to person will work if anything will.
Then the voters can get the straight story not the twisted lies of the English.Three years from now,I think we shall see large,positive economic changes.
Just as an aside,look for the English to use the London mafia to do their dirtywork,they've been caught at it here a few times.It seems they like to push drugs and pull knives to rob innocents.Lothian where most of the tories are I think.English army used Iraq mafia to keep it's casualties relatively low.They got the hoods to lean on the insurgents and they're liable to try it here.

It's only 3am in Scotland there's already 60 responses to this article. It looks as if the National Conversation has duly begun.

TO: AM2.

Your support of the union clearly does not come from a politically or economically neutral commentator. Some deeply emotional state drives these intense opinions. I believe it comes from a failed Northern Irish thing you nurse tae keep warm. A kind of xxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxx of some sort.

However, I don't understand, and I believe not many of the usual contributers do either, why NI is going to be damaged by breakup of Great Britain, or indeed a reunification with Ireland proper. To me this business of NI and Scotland is as much the detritus of the end of empire as the borders of Kenya, Uganda, or the lack of a homeland for the Kurds.

Your deeply held convictions seem, in part, to stem from a fear that NI is going to suffer from the break up of the present UK. It may be true. But if it is in the best interests of Scotland to change the structure of the British Isles to something to its advantage instead of its demise, then NI will just have to live with it.

No one I know wants Scottish independence to cause any suffering in England. No one I know wants Scottish independence to cause any suffering in NI. But Scotland's survival as a community, as a country and as a prosperous economic unit takes first place in this country.

Your promotion of the union for the benefit of NI, at the expense of Scotland is not acceptable.

The only thing missing from all this is a proposal to get rid of the parasitic German monarchy. If the English want to keep them, that's their business, but we should be looking at getting shot of them, once and for all.

As for people like AM Squared, he is, as pointed out by macian at #61, worried about the repercussions for Northern Ireland. People should just ignore his ravings as, being a unionist/loyalist, he is never going to listen to reason or accept any argument. The same applies to his good friends and political allies, Royster and Galactic Cornball.

Saor Alba.

Sorry, that should be MacIan at #62.

#14 AM2

You ask about the clause restricting legal challenges. It's the same clause the Labour Party used in their GLA referendum in 1998. The Solicitor-General, Lord Falconer, explained the clause to the House of Lords.

"...the clause is designed to prevent any, save serious, challenges to the certification of votes or ballot papers under the Bill. Any challenge which was to be made in court would be time-consuming. So long as there was an application before the court, there would be considerable doubt about the fate of the legislation establishing the GLA. In effect, the position would be politically frozen until such a court challenge were brought to an end. The provision is designed to exclude all, save serious, challenges to the certification of votes or ballot papers under the Bill.

We recognise that the clause does not prevent all possibility of legal challenge in connection with the certification of referendum votes. The courts are rightly jealous of their jurisdiction, and look carefully at provisions which seek to oust their jurisdiction. There is a substantial body of case law, including an important decision of this House in its judicial capacity, concerning the proper interpretation of such statutory provisions.

Should any legal proceedings be brought challenging the certificates of the chief counting officer, or a counting officer, it would be for the courts to decide, having regard to the case law and the particular circumstances of the case, whether a challenge could be entertained in the light of Clause 6. A balance is being struck between the clause stopping challenges which are not serious, but with the court having power to investigate those challenges which might be serious.

I have taken some trouble to explain what the clause means, because I can see that, on the face of it, its terms are all-embracing. It may be helpful if I remind your Lordships that there is a presumption that Parliament legislates in th

Another day of taking stock for the unionists lies ahead.

This document is thoroughly reasonable - inclusive - not divisive, forward not backward, pro-active not re-active.

All the scare stories of a 100 days ago have not borne fruit, shame on those on these boards that tried to mislead.

Arise Sir Alex - Father of Modern Scotland

Nice work Mr. Man Boobs.

Can't wait for all the anti-English, anti-Asians, Anti-Black, anti-anybody who isn't Scottish bigots to come on the comments board to blow their tripe over this later in the day.

#22. Edward. You sound like a New Age management guru. If you believe that, you'll believe anything - which you do obviously being a willing acolyte of Alex Salmond.

#68 Conan

So you would deny "Scottish Citizenship" to Alex Salmond who, I recollect, has twice "bowed and scraped" to Her Majesty the Queen since he has become First Minister.

Actually, as a Unionist this grandstanding by Salmond doesn't really worry me. What really worries me is that the England rugby team is now sporting the St George Cross on the sleeve of its shirts. Unheard of!

AM2!

I used to enjoy these boards but now I only look and log off as soon as I see AM2 appear.

This has to be some sort of Political party mouthpiece, correct me if I am wrong.

Using words like "matey" to address other posters makes me think it is somone from London as well.

Something smells very fishy about that AM2?

Name @ #67

What complete and nonsense you post.

The last couple of days you have posted exactly the same comment - when others have asked you to show which post you cl;aim is dripping in hatred nothing is produced.

Either put up or shut up.

PS - you LOST the election

Ah'd like this chap mair if his name wuz McSalmond.

An you, #73, shut yur ain geggie. Naebidy's interested in whit you turncoat Scots whae pinched the pair Abo's land hiv tae say.

Conan

You are a prime example of an ill-educated labourite peasant - of little brain and less vision.

...or do you agree with #67?

Put up or shut up

The SNP are doing a great job. Basically they are the only party at present who are looking forward the other 3 (main Parties) are either looking back to the good old Labour days or standing still, they must like the view.
Here is a no brainer, for the Lib/Lab/Cons you cannot move forward if you continually look back. Alex has got us moving forward lets all look to the future and clear blue sky's.

"It states that Scotland would continue to be a member of the European Union after independence, but even the European Commission has refused to take a view on that, realising that it is too difficult an issue to be decided now."

This point of view may have been controversial in the 1980s but things have changed radically since then, with 11 member states now either the same size as or smaller than Scotland. How can any of the new Member States, in for less than 3 years, seek to stop Scotland remaining a member of the EU when it has been in the EU for over 30?

Pehman

"Is this guy thick or what,

Nicol Stephen, their Scottish leader, said: "The SNP obsession with independence is a road-block to consensus.

Maybe someone can take him aside and point out what the letters SNP stand for"

While they're at it they could explainwhat the words "scottish", "liberal" and " democrat" mean.

The English are being hoodwinked into really believing they sub Scotland,And on the BBc forum the Anti Scots comments are amusing.They dont seem to understand that even if everyone in Scotland voted for Independence,Westminster will not respect the Scottish peoples decision and wont let it happen .Therefore the English should ask themselves why.Does Scotland really sub England with its mineral wealth etc.

europe is watching us - lets show we can have a serious debate

S'obre el debat per Escòcia
El govern escocès publica les bases del referèndum per la independència. Els partits unionistes fan front comú contra la iniciativa
Schotse regering wil referendum over onafhankelijkheid
Uit het archief16/05/07: Schotland heeft eerste nationalistische regering
05/05/07: Olie smeert de Schotse onafhankelijksdrang
03/05/07: LEESWIJZER. Naar een onafhankelijk Schotland?

EDINBURGH - De Schotse nationalistische regering wil dat er een referendum komt met de vraag of Schotland onderhandeling over zijn onafhankelijkheid moet beginnen met Verenigd Koninkrijk

Thought I would get in here before the the unionists. Apparently there is a rumour going around that the whole of the uk want a say in the Independence issue. This is not on, can you see england stand by and let the rest of Europe decide if england (Not the uk) should join the Euro zone. I think not, so why should us Scots let the english have a say on our Independence.

#81

$40K too much to spend on this question?

I think you have a problem with it as it is inclusive and forward thinking!

Why can't we have a conversation for $40k?

What a load of cack, bottom line is we the taxpayers are picking up the tab for the Salmond and his political tiddlers white paper which should have been kicked into touch by the other partys. They have given a little credability to his rantings by thinking they can get something out it for themselves, its time a politician,one with a little credability, (if their is one) hooked the salmond and pulled him out the pool, hes way out his depth if he thinks the Scots want independance. Sack the lot of them and devolve power and funding to the local authoritys, they are the local people who know what is needed in our communitys not the big earning morons in Edinburgh whos only concern is themselves.

'Long game is Salmond's master stroke'

Read this part of the article. At last a bit of thoughtful, incisive writing which is probably spot on.

Eck is playing a blinder as usual. The opposition parties are playing short term politics with no regard for the rights of the Scottish people to make their voice heard either thru this 'conversation' or a referendum. They all believe, even Labour after a road to Damascus conversion, that the parliament should have more powers so why don't they contribute to the debate and come up with the 3rd question for the referendum?

Everyones position is clear as to their preferences i.e. either further powers or independence so put the options to the people and let them decide. If the opposition parties believe in both their position and democracy this shouldn't be problem to them.

I believe we are back to the pre devolution split opinion. One said devolution would satisfy the Scottish people the other that it would lead to independence. It's the same argument again, more powers will satisfy the Scottish people or it is another step on the road to independence. At the end of the day the people will decide, it is up to the politicians of all persuasions to argue their case and accept the outcome.

#84

Boo hoo Sandy $40K - what rip-off!

Stop whining, read the thing and then comment

#4 ex-pat Scot, I posted this on Saturday. I rather think you've put the idea much more eloquently than I!;-)"106. Cadgers, Perth / 10:13am 11 Aug 2007

If we don't grasp the nettle and become independent we'll be in the union till England wants independence. Then it'll be bye,bye jocks mind yer bum on the door on the way out. Is that what we want?"

I for one am looking forward to not reading about how the leader of my country is helping pass a UN resolution on Darfur but instead watching the Scottish six reporting on Alex Salmond has today walked the first 5 miles of the newly upgraded A9.

So whilst Salmond embarks upon his self obsessed journey for F R E E D O M

as opposed to doing his job, who will take on the role as First Minister?

As I said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with independence,its the rogue politicians who are ignoring their main responsibilities in order to chase independence that I have the problem with.

Do you job Salmond, thats what you get paid for.

Well done Mr Salmond .The juggernaut is rolling clever man.

84

Aye but you dont seem to mind picking up the tab for the SE of England though eh?

#84

Ah yes the Se of England that incredibly low income generating region of the UK. After all the financial service industry is going to suppport an independent Scotland yet we you think we support the SE of England.

I think a lot of the Scottish people who were unsure about Salmond prior to voting for him in the last election, will now distance themselves from him.

He used them, he lied to them and he cheated. He was voted in as FIRST MINISTER of Scotland, and he is now disrespecting the job and the people in order to focus on independence. How dare he use the electorate for personal gain? He has shown us his true colours now.

If independence is where we are headed, we desperately need to find someone who can deliver it to us for the right reasons.....

92

Dont forget they are also the biggest consumers of our resourses as well in fact their consumsion outweighs their contribution and is balanced greatly by North Sea oil revenues. But I bet you knew that already.

93

You are confusing the present first minister with the previous one.

#87 - Cadgers, Perth
Agree with your comments 101%. I have been saying the same thing for years. Once england have finished sucking the mineral wealth of this country dry, then it will be bye bye. The sad thing is I really do not think the rest of the population see this. england will only let us go when it suits them, and at present it doesn't suit them. We must stand together and be forceful and demand Independence.

Of course Independence is a long game. Unless you go down the path of War, political freedom is always a long view. And the SNP has been at this in a serious way since the 1960s. It'll come, we just have to have a little more patience.

I think it's true that a lot of old Labour voters are now with the SNP. There's more chance of making Scotland a land of equal opportunity for all than it is if we're tied to the England as well.

And given time, we'll get shot of the monarchy too! One thing at a time, people!

Got all that, AM2?

Media 1

I hope your are not going to embark on another session of posting away from the point!

I think the SNP's pre-election manifesto would have been fairly clear as to the nature of the initiatives it would pursue, the party's name 'Scottish National Party' would also suggest to most voters what they are about.

Nobody has been mislead by SNP policy.

Your arguments that this is a mis-appropriation of resources (money and political) is a nonsense. It is very clear that this conversation will not eat into time taken on normal government business and the monetary cost? - $40K. The legendary tight waddery of the South Africans is obviously rubbing off on you my friend.

AT LAST! A decent article on the story at hand.

Pat Watters you can go away and cuddle my hump, you useless idiot.

And Nicol, the ONLY roadblock to consensus is you and your own discredited party.

Which is it to be:

a) Lord McConnell of Arran
b) Lord McConnell of Goatfell
c) Lord McConnell of Wishaw?

#103 - now Scottish Laour doesn't believe in the House of Lords and all that frankly haut bougeois, antidemocratic, elitist flannel, does it now?

So that'll be Lord Jack picking up his taxpayer-funded allowances from tomorrow then andsaying hello to his mate Lord Watson while he's about it.

Alex Salmond "I think determining a nation's future, the price of democracy, is well worth the cost."

I agree the £40,000 has been well spent and so will the extra money spent for roadshows and exhibitions if they come to fruition.

eric #79

The English are not fooled. Most want an independent Scotland more than the Scots and would pay almost any price for it, including the loss of oil income. The West Lothian question and disagreeable Scots in Westminster are generating unprecedented anti-Scots feeling. If the English were more rational they would realise that the problem stems from the fact that Britain isn't a democracy. Devolution was Scotland's answer to the problem. The English wanted devolution but not regional assemblies. Westminster new that only too well which is why the English didn't get asked the question. Whilst Labour is kept in power by the Scots the turkeys won't vote for Christmas. Less Scots votes for Labour at the next general election would be good for both countries.

Sorry I haven't quite read all the comments yet!

However it is becoming increasingly obvious that all UK parties except the SNP seem to be united in their opposition to any sort of change (It seems not even willing to discuss it).

Surely this white paper is a positive step for labour and co as it proves that the SNP are not just going to push ahead with a referendum at any cost. They don't even plan trying until 2010 and thats only if its clear that its wanted!

It seems the biggest change now in scottish politics is a government who is willing to ask the people how they like governed instead of telling them!

The funniest thing about this paper is that no one has actually asked for a referendum, yet all scottish opposition parties are falling over themselves to denounce it!

Its only debate thats asked for!!!

thats just how most of them are AM2 - they are quite happy to listen to themselves all the time but have a problem with opposing viewpoints resorting normally to name calling and the questioning of ones loyalty

105 AM2

Thats the first comment you have managed to post which I can agree with.
There is absolutely nothing rational about you at all.

Same old comments from AM2 and his little helpers, what is interesting is that his comments now seem even more in the past than during the election campaign. Alex Salmond is running rings round the 'opposition', it's almost cruel to watch especially since they haven't grasped what happened in the election and how things are changed for good.

While these 'conversations' may be seen as a road to independence, let's look at the reality.

Alex has a hard core rump in his party who see full independence as the only goal in life. He has to keep them on side.

He knows he can be out voted in parliament.

He knows if he went to the country with a 'vote for independence' many of the newer SNP voters would disappear.

So.....keep the hard core convinced, hang on to the newer SNP voters and win more from Libdem and Labour with successful 'real' policies. Bluster a bit about independence now and again knowing it won't happen. Keeps everyone happy.

He has a hundred and one other things to do, and he is doing them well so don't want to put too much effort into the independence sloganeering. The 'conversations' will bury it from the agenda for 3 years - at least.

Alex as ever has played this very cleverly.

No doubt much to the annoyance of the other parties (and their supporters) who want to scare the hell out of us with doomsday scenarios of everything from gunboats up the Forth to 'who is going to pay us our dole money'.

And as for wee Pat Watters getting all steamed up. Where was he when we needed him when East Lothian Council was scamming us big time? Where is he on the Edinburgh Waterfront backhanders? What is COSLA policy in helping the fraud squad finger the corrupt ex Labour councillors who ripped off Craigmillar? Get on with it Pat, you have plenty on your plate. If you haven't got an action list, I can give you one.

By the way, I am NOT a member or supporter of SNP.

Then if the taxpayer is paying for this then for fare representation these roadshows must also sell the benefits of the union otherwise it is SNP propaganda and must be paid for by the political party

Alex Slamond reminds me of William Yancey.

And we know where his nationalism ended up.

Another beautiful day in our beloved Scotland. Any person living here who wishes the best for our country is a true Scot in my book whereever he was born If you believe in Scotland joining the big adult world on its own two feet even if you were born in Hong Kong,Northern Ireland,Chile or wherever...join the modern clan and let your voice be heard...positively yes!

#103

After wee Jack's enthusiasm to help the needy in Malawi, rather than the needy in his own backyard, can I suggest Lord McConnell of Malawi.

It would at least give him a freebee holiday in the sun every year. Assuming Kirsty's facilities will become lesss available as he becomes less important.

How much was raised by Jack anyway?

#118

Well call me mis-informed I had no idea who William Yancey was!

Just looked him up, here is the first paragraph from wiki

"William Lowndes Yancey (August 10, 1814 – July 27, 1863) was an American leader of the Southern secession movement as a journalist, politician, orator, and diplomat. Part of the group characterized as the Fire-Eaters, Yancey was seen by many as one of the most effective agitators for secession and rhetorical defenders of slavery"

Yep nick that Al for sure. "A defender of slavery"

Nick - you need to chill out

#82 spot on.a fair amount of the negative comments re independece feel scotland should be part of a union. how about the E.U. as a member state

Conversation.

Scotland should be independent.

No thanks, I am free now.

It looks like we are now going back in time, we are proud of our Scottish heritage, but if Mr Salmond goes ahead with all these proposals we will be going back centuries, does he really think Scotland has enough resources to go it alone.

Great - glad the taxpayers money is being spent wisely.....

Independance is looking more likely and thanks to this white paper the unionists are running scared. lol. Well done Alex we are proud of you.

I cannot understand the difference between the referendum we have every 4-5 years and this one or is it just that now the SNP have their hands on the public purse they feel that they can use the taxpayers money to promote their political ends rather than show the nation they are capable of governing. I am now wondering if I made an error in voting SNP for the first time.

14 AM2: This clause is added to protect the Counting Officer from prosecution following a miscount. After all, these people are only human and may make mistakes. Or do you think that officials involved in electoral planning, organisation or execution should be held legally responsible for their actions?

Please stop spinning and twisting things to support your arguments - we are fairly intelligent on these pages and tend to go and read things too. If you spun anymore, we'd be hooking pike with you.

It doesn't surprise me that you'd be there with the document sat before you. I prefer to take time to digest the paper first - then one finds that the whole picture comes out. It's a bit like reading the Bible: don't take an individual verse and apply it literally, look at the context.

"I AGREE that the Scottish Government should negotiate a settlement with the Government of the United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes an independent state."

This is a completely absurd concept. What happens if Gordon Brown is Prime Minister of the UK Government when the Scottish Government comes to talk about independence? What mandate will someone representing a Scottish constituency have to discuss the mechanics of Scotland seceding from the Union? Absolutely none and it is unthinkable that he could do it.

Indeed, the UK Government would have no mandate to take part in such discussions. For these to happen a body (or bodies) representing the remaining parts of the UK - either separately or collectively - would have to be constituted.

#128, spot on. As far as I can see this is use of taxpayers' money to fund a political party. That's Holyrood for you.

Only just thought of this, but perhaps the so-called grand conversation should include the option of REDUCING Holyrood's powers until the MSPs have shown themselves worthy of our trust and capable of making proper political decisions in their area of competence instead of just political grandstanding, bickering and gesture politics (and I don't just mean the SNP here).

#107 - Lachlan, Perth
I don't have a problem with joining the E.U. , as long as it's as an Independent country. I.E. one that has self determanation for it's people

128: At the risk of appearing patronising, the national elections are not a referendum based on a single policy but on a far reaching structure of 'promises' made to the populace. This is the mistake made by many in the recent Scottish elections: People voted against the SNP because the party is pro-independence. However, the SNP proposal was for a referendum on independence - i.e. people voted against their democratic right to chose our future preferring MSPs to make those decisions for them. The SNP are the ONLY party who are willing to let the public decide.

#116 Spot on - it is taxpayers money and these roadshows should put both sides. Personally I can never see the Scots voting for independence, no matter how many foaming at the mouth nationalists on this board rant, rave and insult anyone with a different viewpoint.

As white papers go this current AS. version will have a similar success rating as the memorable Neville Chamberlain white paper waved to the then media as representing "peace in our time" after returning from Germany and an agreement with one Adolf Hitler.

Shortly after which the second world war started.

White papers are obviously not what they are cracked up to be.

That should have been 122 not 107 I will get to him now

#s 104 & 120,

You are both spot on.

I hope Wendy Alexander gets it. Salmond will tear her apart and I cannot wait for the slaughter to begin. Can you imagine the scene every Thursday at noon? A bloodbath, and not the good kind.

From God, the Kirk or Ulster?

We'll let AM2 decide in the meantime shall we!

Of course Scotland would be part of the EU after Independance - its just scare mongering by this newspaper to suggest it wouldn't be

I think if the SNP want a roadshow let the SNP pay for it themeselves. I personally don't want any of my good tax money going toward a roadshow meant to sway those who are currently sitting the fence. Those who have their minds made up now will most likely remain in the same mindset. This is something that's been debated for ages and in most cases people have a fairly clear idea what they personally want for Scotland. I think one of the big questions should be, "Who is going to PAY for independence?" The NHS for example; With the NHS is such a bad way already, dividing funds and leaving Scotland with ONLY Scottish funds to take care of Scottish patients there simply won't be enough money to keep even most of our hospitals up and running. We're already seeing the effects of pulling smaller hospitals out of use in the highlands. PEOPLE DIE! SNP should keep their hands out of peoples pockets until they can SHOW exactly how total independance will keep Scotland from falling into a black hole.

#121 You need to brush up on your history- but the analogy does stand - replace the word cotton with oil and you get Salmond.

Slavery was a minor issue in the civil war, made greater by past generations than it really was and I was not referring to that anyway.

It was more his style and "firebrand" attitude.

I think if the SNP want a roadshow let the SNP pay for it themselves. I personally don't want any of my good tax money going toward a roadshow meant to sway those who are currently sitting the fence. Those who have their minds made up now will most likely remain in the same mindset. This is something that's been debated for ages and in most cases people have a fairly clear idea what they personally want for Scotland. I think one of the big questions should be, "Who is going to PAY for independence?" The NHS for example; With the NHS is such a bad way already, dividing funds and leaving Scotland with ONLY Scottish funds to take care of Scottish patients there simply won't be enough money to keep even most of our hospitals up and running. We're already seeing the effects of pulling smaller hospitals out of use in the highlands. PEOPLE DIE! SNP should keep their hands out of peoples pockets until they can SHOW exactly how total independence will keep Scotland from falling into a black hole.

Is it not Nicol Stephen's (and McConnell's, Goldie's, etc etc) obsession with unionism that is blocking the road to concensus?

They are aginst this because they know they are losing the battle. Scots are realising that we have been lied to for generations. If all these other nations throughout the world can be independent, why not us? The unionists have no real answer and so the attempt to stifle discussion and use fear as their tactic.

#139 I don't think so.

Salmond is a single-issue politician and after the labour backlash has died down he will be history.

Labour's Wendy Alexander is a broad-based, thinking, intellectual politician - no match for Salmond, you must be joking!

Xena (136)

The white paper explains in detail the options available - status quo, devolution "Max" or independence. I think it is in everyone's interests for there to be a rational objectve debate. I sincerely hope that business, academia, the arts etc engage in the process and it doesn't descend into Daily Record hysteria or some of the occasional idiocy spouted by independence supporters

I support the end of Union. I dont like calling it independence because I feel that implies that Scotland as an entity is being held against its will or indeed is a colony of England. This is just nonsense.
However, the right of Scotland and England to review their Treaty of Union should not be seen as being extremist of narrow minded or whatever else it has been labelled. Quite simply, the reasons why both countries joined in the Union have now gone.

The UK is no longer a world power. There may be other ties such as emotional ones to bind us toegther but these can exist outwith a political union

One worrying problem that may develop if Independence appears inevitable is a talent drain to the South, especially amongst public sector workers. The Whitehall mandarins offering the really good people promotions to work down South. I am afraid that paying the mortage is more important than independence for the vast majority of these people which would leave us struggling as these are the very people who would be vital in setting up the aparatus to run an independent Scotland.

I rest my case 146, I want scottish independence but from an english perspective so therefore I am at odds with AM2 - but just because I dont agree with him I dont slag off everything he says like the rest of you do, or bring his nationality into it, why should he have to defend that ? Let him say his piece and treat his freely made comments with the respect that they should have in a democracy, as should he - after all if the debate is silenced what do we have then ?

#145 The answer is in your own posting.

Scotland is largely unpopulated. The only way that services can be provided from a Scottish-only budget for the whole population is for the whole population to be centralised. Whay do you think our water rates have soared? It is to pay to bring up to Euro-scratch the water resources for the sparsely-populated areas. Scotland simply can't afford to provide services for the whole country from the pockets of the central belt.

A United Kingdom spreads the load more widely and makes us Scots all better off.

#152

You are not a Scot, if you were, you wouldn't be posting half of the diatribe of filth that you are.

The Bruce would be ashamed of you.

So where has Foulkes gone for his holiday this year?

Anyone remember Brian Wilson?

132 Scottish & British, From your post,

Only just thought of this, but perhaps the so-called grand conversation should include the option of REDUCING Holyrood's powers until the MSPs

I'll go along with your proposal, which would split the NO votes, thus making it more certain that the yes vote would win.

Or hadn't you thought it through ?

#148 - the UK was not a world power when the Union began. It became one as both countries pooled their resources, abilities and outlooks.

136 Xena Warrior Princess

As an SNP supporter, and one who admits to recently foaming at the mouth, it's actually a daily routine when shaving, it was nice to see you asking for the roadshows to put both sides.
Perhaps you might consider that idea in relation to the media as well, nothing like a balanced view !
You state you cannot see the Scots voting for independence take a look at the poll on this site, currently 80% seem to be doing just that.

It is important to remember that the large majority of the Scottish voters, voted for parties that wish to maintain the union. All recent opinion polls show that most Scots do not want independence.

#159

People who want change always make the most noise and are the most likely to bother to reply. The people happy with the status quo generally don't bother until they feel that their position is actually threatened. At the moment it is not.

158,

Yes, and now we are not. Your point is?

There must be something more important that we should be focusing on - healthcare, crime, soaring rates of alcohol related problems etc. Not this giant ego trip of Salmon and Turbot that NO-ONE VOTED FOR.

#160

It's also important to remember that this will change in time.

#158

"pooled our outlooks" - no we had an outlook forced on us by the English government - and we got Iraq in return.

Dave evans 160

Hi Dave, that assumption is based on people voting for a single issue. Your analogy is like saying that everyone who voted for Labour supports trident on the clyde or nuclear power. We all know that is not the case.

Therefore, be very careful when stating that simply because people voted for a "unionist" party that that would translate into automatic no votes. There are indeed many labour voters, LIb Dem, tory etc who would vote yes.

#152 His statement is correct - Scotland's population density is something like 65 persons per sq km compared to a UK average of 246 - England's is actually 383, even Northen Ireland is around 125 people per sq km.

The cost of infrastructure and support to provide services to a widely dispersed population does cost more.

And in essence the Central belt would have to fund the North and the South West.

How is admitting that an unscottish thing?

No 163 ..

You needn't worry.

All are getting dealt with and much more...

Go to sleep now and relax...

Why do these people bother... Education?

158: Britain has never been a world power on her own - she has continually relied on alliances with other (usually larger) nations in order to survive.

If we look at the empire building, most of the conquored nations were unfit/unable to defend themselves.

As independent countries, the constituent parts of Britain would still require alliances to survive but such alliances don't prevent independence.

Constituants who voted for other parties other than the SNP would not necessary not vote for independance..

I know many of that ilk...

Nationalism is an immature outlook. As Lenin said 'Nationalism is an infantile sickness'. This is even more true now than iot was then.

Furthermore, most of the nats I know are anti English bigots.

This isnt a 'conversation' it is taxpayer funded manipulation. If Michael Forsyth had proposed a pro union stunt like this the natsis would've been tearing their ginger beards out.

# 150 - eddy longshanks
Never in any of my posts, if #150 is directed at me, have I raised the issue of Nationality. This is something I leave to the english as they are very quick to raise this issue. Who are the Racists?

#7 Penman
The English have not had any devolution referendums, I think you mean, the poll held in the north of England regarding Regional Assemblies. Which was the proposal to split England ino five regions. This was defeated. In true Labour party fashion, this was ignored and the regional authority still exists. It costs the tax payer a cool £200 million.

#160

There is an assumption that all SNP voters will vote yes. I know several people who voted SNP as a protest against Iraq and the corruption of new Labour. They couldn't bring themselves to vote Conservative and view the Lib Dems as a waste of time. They think Salmond and tan SNP EXECUTIVE! will be good for Scotland but do not want full independence. The SNP got a majority of 1 seat against the most unpopular Labour party in Scottish history.

The BBC in London had Michael Forsyth on Newsnight and just reminded me why the Tories dont figure much now in Scottish politics.
He was spouting his own little agenda and at one point vocally disgreed with Kirsty Wark, when she mentioned something that the Scottish Conservatives are agreeing on as regards more powers. Why did the BBC resurect Forsyth, possibly its the only Scottish Tory the BBC in London know
Came accross as someone thats out of touch with the Scottish scene. Labour put up there check out girl Cathy for the programe, so betewwen check out girl and fat cat banker, the programe got knowhere

Why does this little man get so much attention. Really doesn't merit being the lead story in the Scootsman for the third day running.

Its like watching Big Brother. Wee Eck and his fellow loons running around trying to draw attention to themselves. We won't even remember who they are in 4 years time.

Whilst clearly a small sample and confined to people who can actually read,the opinion poll on this very page suggests that Scotland is far from happy with the status quo. I do not suggest for one second that this would be reflected in an actual referendum ,but it is a high figure !
However I'm sure the Labour party will be (as we read) issuing instructions to its members on how to vote on this site.If the Scottish election is anything to go by then don't be surprised if the total votes cast remains the same !
One thing we should definitely not tolerate is the suggestion that consultation of the people is a waste of taxpayers money. Governance without consultation is a far bigger problem,and we have had enough of that.Interesting to hear henry McLeish being very open this morning and admitting that London interferes far too much in the Labour Party in Scotland.Mind you when asked about Jack McConnell's achievements ,he saw the smoking ban as his finest moment.That speaks volumes!
Every Scot should consider what we could be as a nation says AS.

I agree they should.The problem has always been some cannot see beyond subservience, but can we really blame the people when we have politicians who see their allegiance as being to their party,before the people ? I say its the other way round!That auto excludes all Unionist parties!
Those who say Scotland cannot govern herself but are happy to see Scotland's politicians governing the United Kingdom have a major credibility problem,because that does not make sense.I was surprised to learn that Jack McConnell was once a nationalist (whilst a student) but like Teddy Taylor he realised that if he wanted to be elected and earn a living from sitting on your butt,he had to be in a popular party.Mind you David Lloyd George became Prime Minister and was actually a Welsh Nationalist.He had the excuse that he was before his time. This lot have no excuse at all.Apparently if Scotland gives more than 300 bil

What about the last referendum undertaken by the Scottish Parliament - a Lab/Lib venture I believe...

they spent £9m of public money (http://www.notolls.org.uk/edinburghnews.htm)

AND THAT WAS JUST TO POLL EDINBURGH!!!!!!!!!

£40K is nothing and any further cost would be spread over a number of years...

161 malkster

"People who want change always make the most noise and are the most likely to bother to reply. The people happy with the status quo generally don't bother until they feel that their position is actually threatened. At the moment it is not."

SNP: 48%
Labour: 32%
Cons: 8%
Libs: 8%

As you say.

171: I know of voters who opted for the SNP just so they could have a say!! They would vote No too... susprisingly, the vote in the elections doesn't reflect any vote in a referendum and that's why AS wants one.

#178 Memyself&I
Your obviously out of touch, or just out to lunch!
In case you werent aware, Alex Salmond is our First Minister and the white paper presented yesterday is of importance to all Scots to discuss as its about how we govern ourselves , either as we are at the moment, or with expanded powers or with Independence. Which is why the Scottish Government are encouraging us all to discuss and think about it

###########
AM2, Glasgow / 6:22pm 14 Aug 2007
‘Absolute nonsense. Here is the post by the "Great Deception" author.
I quote: "The unionists are attempting to stop the Scottish people realising our nation’s full potential as a free and independent nation. Therefore they are traitors in that they have given their allegiance to the foreign concept of 'Britain' and those who co-operate with them are of the same ilk as Quisling who believed that the best interests of the Norwegian people lay with an alien invader (The German Nazis.) You believe Scotland’s best interests lie in the Union of Great Britain which is an alien concept for most of us on this board. So do not be surprised if people call you names and as the cap fits, wear it!"
Why are you motivated to serve as an apologist for this kind of thing?’

AM2, I didn’t say I believe in his political views, they are far too euro sceptic, and a little too right of centre for my liking, much like the Tory party. I believe the people of all nations should have the right to self determination, even those nations within unions like ours. It is the inability, and inflexibility of the system of government within the UK which stops this, and is choking the meaning of being Scottish until it is no more, if self determination means independence, then independence it should be. The author of the great deception does goes a little too far in his interpretation and diagnosis of being an average unionist party member, that is true, though I would add that those unionists knowledgeable in the contents of the great deception could be easily classed as legitimate targets for scorn. The absence of names in his appraisal, is not the act of subterfuge you may have believed, he didn’t need it to be, he’s as good as named all Prime Ministers and Chancellors of the exchequer in the period the great deception discusses. Absolute nonsense, you called my post, though at best your evidence is sub

##########
AM2, further to you quoting the author of the great deception from on another site, I read on and found something very interesting for you to investigate for yourself. The author on the site is named ‘niall ban’ and the person trying to attack what he is saying is called ‘Braveheart’

Niall ban: Your defence of the union has been very poor. You have refused to accept figures from official sources provided by posters on this board by denouncing them as not factual. I gave you an indisputable fact that the GERS Figure for Corporation Tax was understated. The GERS Figure was £2.41 Billion whereas official figures from Company house for the top 500 Scottish Companies in the same period was £6.3 Billion. It has been your unthinking loyalty to a factually challenged Scottish executive propaganda document that has destroyed any credibility you may have had.

Braveheart: With respect Niall, you are not a verifiable source... If you figures have been published and peer reviewed, please show nmw where and I will have a look.

Niall ban: You wrote: "With respect Niall, you are not a verifiable source... If you figures have been published and peer reviewed, please show nmw where and I will have a look. "

Step one: Go to the Scotsman business pages on line and print off their list of Scotland's top 500 Companies and the associated financial information. This information is from Companies House in Edinburgh where you can read the returns to your hearts content. Now if this information is not verifiable then nothing is. So please look up the sources I have used (if you are able that is) and check the figures..........

AM2, the instructions Niall ban gives should be easy enough for you to follow, I find them to be spot on, what do you think of them?

#182

With 31% in favour of Independence, the SNP executive are doing a great job of running the show but people like being part of the UK even though they vote/ would vote SNP, is that so difficult to understand. Local politics have always been different.

You unionists are a complete joke, you are a shame on Scotland. Not fit to be called Scots; I would have you all put up against a wall and.

Can we have a straw poll of everyone
Saying wether they have read all of the White Paper or not

Thanks

By the way I have!

#134 totally agree and this was one of the reasons I voted SNP because I thought they might just prove me wrong on my view that most of our politicians are not fit for purpose.

# 135 of course you are not being "patronising" but you are using a rather convoluted way of arriving at the answer YOU want.. Why would you waste time and energy, better used to sort out the problems in care of elderly enviromental health etc etc, on a referendum when as you say " People voted against the SNP because the party is pro-independance" ??

#9. AM2, Glasgow / 1:00am 15 Aug 2007
‘Were all these "roadshows" and "public meetings" a costed manifesto pledge?’

Flexible free thinking politicians AM2, what ever next?

#189

Its called a debate, if you cannot handle people putting forward all sides of the arguement I suggest you go back to your bothy and have a wee dram

Opinion poll
If a referendum were held tomorrow would you vote for independence from the rest of the UK?

Yes
80%
No
20%
1,127 votes Vote now

80%. WOW....Not looking to clever for our wee timorous beasties in the unionist gang hut. What a pathetic cringing shower you are. Is that the sound of fingernails being pulled :o) LMFAO

Alex Salmond and the SNP you have made me very proud and happy, and for that I thank you. As each day goes by this ancient and proud nation regains more and more confidence and self respect, God Bless and keep you all. Fien-Riaghladh Saorsa A-Nis

ALBA GU BRATH.

Re Newsnicht. Good to see Fraser Murdo or was it Murdo Fraser keeping up with who supports the SNP, When he claimed that the former boss of Scottish Enterprise Robert Crawford had been a vocal supporter the SNP at the election, perhaps he meant Crawford Beveridge, another former boss of Scottish Enterprise.

News of Robert Crawford's support for independence even took our First Minister by surprise.

Interesting to note that Newsnight didn't do a live segment with the First Minister instead opted for a pre-recorded interview. Could La Wark not be trusted in a live situation?

189

Against a wall ? The mind boggles
Mmmm Can we nationalists come too?

188 malkster

The only way to determine the actual number of pro/anti independence voters is by having a referendum.
It appears the 'Unionist' parties are against one.
The reason being there are significant numbers of pro independence voters amongst them.

#189,

I was going to say "shot" but I didn't think that very sporting.

I can just imagine the results of the referendum now:

33% status quo
33% devolution max
34% independence

Salmond: "We won! The people voted for independence!"

Bring it on. For once Michael Forsyth spoke some sense. Lets find out the sottish peoples real "settled will". And we can all get on with our lives 'independent' or as a 'willing' partner within the United kingdom.

But sooner within this parliamentary term..Next year preferably. Get it over with.

#194,

Alright Malkie boy? Yeah, I can hadle a debate and all sides being put across.

What I can't handle is knowing that the other side are wrong and them being too juvenile and bloody incompetent to admit to it. Which they are.

Scotland is a divided nation, I accept that. But just so long as you know that a nation split asunder cannot continue. Something has to give. The nats are clever and this is playing right into their hands.

#195 Oh, well if an unsubstantiated opinion poll of 0.016% of the population says so if must be valid.

#202,

And he would be correct of course.

#204 If the other side is wrong and you cannot persuade them so, your arguement if flawed.

I am amazed at the acceptance of the word unionist to describe anyone who doesn't agree with the SNP's (current) definition of independence. The Scotsman has totally bought into this. The Tories traditionally have that word in their name, plus it still conjures up images of sectarian Northern Irish politics. So far, everyone recognises Alex S has played a blinder. Obviously a huge leap in class and intellect from Jack M. The use of the word unionist to describe anyone who doesn't agree with him will ultimately rebound and reveal the uglier less pleasant side of socialist nationalism. Let's hope this great country isn't divided by this self serving 'little Scotlander'.

oy oy oy!!!
C'moan Alex and Nicola ...
Do yer talkin' while yer walkin'

DO IT ...
STOP TELLING US YUZZ URR GONNAE DAE IT.

Salmond and Sturgeon need to "walk their talk"

If they plan to push for outright indy ... do it now!!

Chh-hay-sooooss-kreeeeesti!!

c'mon Alex and Nickie babes ...
A real government makes it's ane decisions.

"We'll dig a trench along the border ...!"
(sic)

Do it!!

What worries me slightly about the whole Independence movement is that we seem to be short on facts and long on emotion. We may also have missed the boat in terms of being as succesful as the other small independent nations within Europe who got in at the right time. Ireland was heavily subsidised by the EU as the poorest nation upon joining. This helped create the Celtic tiger economy but we will end up subsidising the poorer esatern European nations. I think the conversation is a good thing but there are some very hard questions to be answered.

189

Given a Medal?

#207,

Nicky - these "Scots" know in theirt heart of hearts they are wrong, the trouble is a tiny wee thing and it's called denial.

They know what the Wallace and the Bruce fought for was right, they know it's right now today. But you see they've been so consumed and twisted by the dark side for years (unionist media par example) that now they believe anything the evil Empire feeds them.

#212

Shot?

#202 Every political party does it.

Labour got 36.2% of the votes cast, and 56.5% of the seats in the UK elections, on a 62.1% turnout - therefore 22.4ish% of the public.

Democracy, you gotta love it. A majority is a majority, who cares which figures you fluff to get it....

7. pehman. Get your facts right. England has never been offered devolution on Scottish lines. Parts of the country were offered more regional say in a way which would have left a one party dominance. What we want in England is a fair crack of the whip. Give us the opportunity to vote for our independence simultaneously with the Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish. Whoever votes to leave the Union can then do so. We are all getting tired of being the punch bag and cash machine for the rest of this pathetic out of date grouping. We just wish that the SNP and the rest of the Scottish parties would push through independence and stop using the threat of it to screw more money out of England.

At the very least we would see the back of Gordon Brown before the English economy and way of life is utterly destroyed.

#208,

I am amazed at the acceptance of the word unionist to describe anyone who doesn't agree with the SNP's (current) definition of independence.

Because it is unionism plain and simple?

#157. pehman, sussex
"I'll go along with your proposal, [#132 'option of REDUCING Holyrood's powers']which would split the NO votes, thus making it more certain that the yes vote would win."

I reckon that a referendum should include the option of scrapping devolution and returning to full Union.

It's a valid question to ask. Whether it has a possible tactical downside isn't a reason for avoiding the option.

Anyway, an option as radical as full independence (which I support) should need at least 51% of all those voting.

#173 - Never in any of my posts, if #150 is directed at me, have I raised the issue of Nationality. This is something I leave to the english as they are very quick to raise this issue. Who are the Racists?

Magnificent! Here I am in England and it's true. I get up in the morning make a cup of coffee and the first tng my English wife says to me relates to race. Then, at work, there they all are - the English - talking about race. Nothing about football, the weather, holidays, music, the telly, nothing at all. It's just race, race, race. All of them - the Jewish ones, the African ones, the ones of Irish and Scottish descent, the Asians. Every single one of them, all the time. Just talking about race. You are absolutely correct. Aren't they the lowest kind of scum, those race-obsessed English?

Ok, The Scotsman - you don't like the SNP or support independence. We get it.

219. Ken S., England

I disagree with you percentage, I remember when the issue of devolution came up in the 70's and over 70% was required to have a devolved parliment. Therefore the percentage for independance should be 75%

#179 - Who says this? name one politician sitting in the Scottish parliament or at Westminster who has said this. Show me any part of any of the manifestos of the mainstream Unionist parties at the last election which said this.

The fact is that you can't, because you are making it up. The issue is not whether scots can govern themselves, the issue is whether independence is in Scotand's best interests. The two are completely different.

#150 " after all if the debate is silenced what do we have then ?"

The SNP is the only party who are trying to encourage the debate on independence - all others reject it out of hand, without letting the people have their own say. Yup, that's democracy all right.

real governments make real decisions.
Uncle Tom's Cabin is only the "kiddology section"

So c'moan Alex and Nicki babes ... PULL THE FINGER OOT!!!

I am not opposed to independence. I am opposed to the strategy being adopted by the SNP. I would vote no in a referendum today, NOT because I dont want independence, but because I am passionate about Scotland, and if independence is what we want, then we best be 100% sure that we have the right people to take us there. Salmond is NOT that person. You can argue until you are blue in the face that he is, but I will refuse to listen, because I do not trust this man at all.

Why is health, education, the prison system, anti social behaviour and violent crime not HIGHEST on his agenda?

It is clear that Salmond is not the least bit interested in Scotland's most pressing issues, and that alone is reason enough to ignore HIS calls for independence.

Salmond guises himself as the classical republican.

Just as the classical liberal sees freedom as freedom from interference, the classical republican sees freedom as freedom from dependency. Salmond argues that we are not free until we are no longer dependent on anyone but ourselves, and whilst I agree with him in that regard, I do not believe that he is actually a classical republican in that sense. His vision for Scotland is clouded, he wants independence, but refuses to first prove his worth as a First Minister tackling the real issues.

Is independence for Scotland viable? YES, But that does not mean that pro Salmond fans are enlightened in their judgement of him or his visions for Scotland.

We could always have White Heather Club Shows prior to the SNP roadshows. 'Wee eck' and 'nicky the fish' leading a 'strip the willow'. WOW exciting times ahead for us Scots

#181 Sam Mond

Like your namesake you are either confused or a liar.

The road tolls poll was conducted by Edinburgh Council not the Scottish Parliament.

Also where did this £40K figure come from - I am sure the full cost of the "conversation" will be nearer the cost of a hospital wing.

#217
Fleur ...
ay ay ay ...
la francesa bonita

Yes Salmond and Sturgeon need to push now for outright independence.
Time to be BOLD!!

#217 You really know how to charm people don't you?

Ever heard the saying "you catch more flies with honey?"

#221,

Of course you may use it. Comment ca va aujourd'hui?

It's actually a phrase my mother uses, along with such select snippets as "swivel" and "spin". I thought that "cuddle my hump" was the more suitable of those.

Besides Pat Watters gets me angry. Cosla = shambles and waste.

I wish I'd met Winnie you know. And anyway, who's to say I'm not Dr Ewing sitting typing this...

#211 malkster, Scotland and its not raining
Have you not read the white paper?
It might answer some of your doubts
By the way its not all about Independence, its about Scotlands next step in Devolution, which could either be expanding the existing Devolved powers or going the whole way to Independence

131. Ex-pat observer
An interesting point you observe Ex-pat.

>>>the UK Government would have no mandate to take part in such discussions. For these to happen a body (or bodies) representing the remaining parts of the UK - either separately or collectively - would have to be constituted<<<

So you are suggesting that the UK government does not represent the interests of the minor constituent parts of the UK and a body to do this should be set up?

I had not got you down as an anti-Unionistist.

Might I suggest a name for this collective: The British Government?

#3
Pat Watters has made a fortune from the public purse and when you take into consideration that councillors, are not supposed to be paid a salary,- only expenses are all they are supposed by right to claim. Now those expenses are fiddled by some to make it more than a salary, for a joiner who was once called to question by the authorities for the same, where did he get the thousands to put out in the first place to claim back expenses. people have long memories.

#229,

Or nearer the cost of a full all-inclusive expenses-paid trip to Malawi mate?

#227 Media1

"I am not opposed to independence. I am opposed to the strategy being adopted by the SNP. I would vote no in a referendum today, NOT because I dont want independence, but because I am passionate about Scotland, and if independence is what we want, then we best be 100% sure that we have the right people to take us there. "

Your position is completely non-sensical.

Whether it is in an independent Scotland or the UK, there is the chance to remove the leader and the leading party every 4 years or so.

The opportunities for a country to decide on its constitutional future does not come along that often. It is perhaps conceivable that it may never happen again, or in our lifetimes.

So if you support independence but not the leader, you vote for independence and then vote to change the leader.

I don't believe you are being honest or sincere.

#228
The "White Heather Club" ...
hmmm!

Can we huvah wee bit o' salsa and Spanish flamenco wae it?
Ahhh've goat ma castenettes ready

hooch wheeech och aye ... arriba abajo al centro y padentro

#232,

Haha, Nicky I love you! Truth hurts huh? Must have hit it pretty close to the mark to get you all riled up like that huh?

#195 Hen Broon

Can you tell me where you got that poll from?

If it's true, it's briliant news.

211

What questions? its questions about remaining in the Union which need to be answered like what benefits are we getting? and since Oil was discovered and exploited what happened to it why hasnt it helped to eradicate poverty in Scotland? Why are we so unhealthy, Why are so many living on the minimum wage? Why are we subsidising another nation? why have we no voice in Europe?
Why has our national identity been smothered by the British/English identity when the English Identity gained in strength? Why cant I speak Gaelic?
Why wasnt I taught Scottish history in School?
Why do I know more about the battle of Hastings than I do about the battle of Bannockburn?
Why do I know more about the royal families of England than I do about Scotlands old royal families?
And there are millions more.

We seem to have a number of Rip Van Winkles in Scotland who seem unaware that the debate/ discussion/conversation about devolution/ independence/the UK has been going on for at least 40 years that I know of. Throughout that time the prospect of breaking up the UK has been judged seriously wanting by the Scottish people, in the debate and in elections. Even now, when Labour and the others are on a deserved low there is still no mandate as the last election showed; only 17% of the Scottish electorate voted SNP. That figure is inescapable and suggests that a referendum would be a superfluous, if costly, exercise. Some correspondents should reflect on this instead of getting giddy with excitement when AS speaks or moves. He shows a certain cunning, no doubt, but - calm down.

#227 - so passionate in fact that you appear to live in South Africa...

#208 Uncomfortable

"I am amazed at the acceptance of the word unionist to describe anyone who doesn't agree with the SNP's (current) definition of independence."

It's shorthand for those who in the debate over whether Scotland should be independent or not, are voicing their support for the Union, at the expense of independence.

I would say that the actions of the three opposition parties in the last couple of days, give this usage of the word even more credibility.

#238 Richard: I wont vote for it whilst its Salmond whose driving it. He has a job to do as First Minister and a few things to prove before I hand my country over to him on a platter.

ay la francesa ...
yes sweetie fleur suga-pie.

Don't listen tae ony mair dugs abuse fae they eejits hen ... intae darlin'
Get some backbone carino

Watters has one god dammed cheek talking of wasted taxpayers money, Totally thick skinned.

# 220 - ex pat observer, unknown location
I see your are now standing up and shouting about something that does not concern you. Did your mother not warn you what happens to people that stick their nose into other peoples business, it's not pretty. Maybe you have had a chat to eddy, who I think is losing his nerve

211

If we have missed the boat its because of people like yourself AM2, Media 1 Royster etc preaching the same pish and lies that kept us in the Union during the 70s 80s 90s and 2000s which you are still doing. So if you think it was right then why not now? we still have the oil and the revenues have never been higher with the higher cost of oil world wide.
We are winning massive Whiskey and textile export contracts in the new markets of China and India worth billions so whats your problem?

Alex Salmond and the SNP are to be congratulated on putting Scotland on the front page of BBC News, Channel 4 News and Newsnight. Something previous administrations have failed to do since the Parliament opened for business.
All this in 100 days of government, and the only response from the other parties is to throw their toys out of the pram. Pathetic.
I am particularly disappointed in Annabel Goldie, and as for the new Labour leader elect - she has simply stepped into Jack the lad's shoes, negative approach and all, and look what happened to him.

och they unionists urr aw numpino pompinos onywayes!!

Outright independence now ... stoap pussyfootin' ... git oan wae it.

Stoap kiddin us oan ... dae it!!

#219 Ken S

"Anyway, an option as radical as full independence (which I support) should need at least 51% of all those voting."

The trouble with that approach is that if there are more than 2 options in the referendum then we can only presume what people's second choices are and we have to choose one of the options.

So if independence got 35% of the vote.
Increased devolution got 33% of the vote.
and the staus quo got 32% of the vote.

What result do you accept, if not the single largest vote?

You can't chooose devolution on the basis of 33% when more people wanted greater devolution.

And you certainly can't go for the status quo as 68% said no to that.

You have to either only give two options, accept the largest group (even without a minority), ask people what their second option would be, or have a second referendum with only 2 options.

#223 Stevie

"Therefore the percentage for independance should be 75%"

So we fight to impose democracy in other countries and then throw it out the window when we don't like things at home.

Salmond is being remarkably astute by taking a gradualist approach.

The Unionist parties should have pressed for a very quick referendum on Independence, which I think would have voted "No" and finished the matter for a generation. They have now lost that opportunity.

Salmond can use the next three years to do two fundamental things to this debate.

First, he can compare what kind of place in the World the UK has/wants and compare that to what kind of place in the World an Independent Scotland could have. The modern nation State is a very different creature to what it was even fifty years ago. Concepts such as sovereignty have been markedly diluted by institutions such as the EU and by the rise of global markets. People identify with Countries differently to the way they did, I suspect, at the end of WWII. An Independent Scotland may make a lot of sense in the context of a debate on those grounds, especially if the UK is seen to seek an historically influenced place in the World that is at odds with the position that many people would wish it to adopt (as illustrated by Iraq and Afghanistan).

Second, the other three parties will not sustain their present positions and will be subject to marked internal strains and divisions in trying to work out what to do in the "conversation". The Tory party in particular will divide into two camps (assuming it does not split altogether) - those who argue for the Union and will not contemplate anything else (the position the Tory Party took in the referendum, which put it up a blind alley once devolution happened) and those who argue for right wing social and economic policies in the context of a Independent Scotland - or who take the view that an Independent Scotland will need such a voice if it comes to pass. The same thing will happen to the other parties but, I suspect, to a lesser extent.

The real threat to Salmond's offereing is the fact that (as I have posted before

203

I agree bring it on ,but you cannot have a settled will in a democracy. Constant consulation via the ballot box is a pre requisite.

116

Then if the taxpayer is paying for this then for fare representation these roadshows must also sell the benefits of the union otherwise it is SNP propaganda and must be paid for by the political party

I am sure they would if anybody could think of any why dont you give us some?

#239 Talorthane: Salmond is the only person pushing for independence at the moment, therefore, he appears to be the one who would rule the roost if we earned that independence. He also appears to be avoiding his duties as First Minister in order to achieve this independence, which I find odd.

I want a referendum so that the people can choose what they want. I do not want the FIRST MINISTER writing political documents and spending all his ministerial time campaigning for independence. The problem I see, is that people have bought the Salmond dream hook, line and sinker without engaging their brains. Therefore, in an independent Scotland we will be ruled by a party who have proved nothing and a man who shirks his duties.

Which in turn would mean that I would need to wait an entire term to cast my vote on the leader I would like to see in charge of the new independent Scotland. By that time, the Salmond dream is an actual nightmare and all because we bought into his false vision without first demanding that he and his party prove their worth as a leading party and a First Minister respectively within the union set up.

The SNP must prove to us how an independent Scotland would benefit us. They must show us how well Scotland CAN be run within the union and then if they can, offer us more proof of how our growth is restricted within the union. OR we can hope against hope that everything Salmond says about independence is absolutely spot on, prior to any research or actual testing over a sustained period of time actually being done.

I dont trust the man, therefore, I cannot share his vision.

227. Media 1, cape town

Just what are you on pal?

Your posts are getting more extraordinary each passing day.

You have warmed to the New First Minister who seems to be making a good job of leading the country as a devolved part of the UK.
Independence is now viable.
You are in favour of Scottish independence but not if Alex Salmond is in charge.

Well at least we seem to be making some progress.
Presumably you'd think the same way for the UK?
Democracy is ok, unless you don't happen to like the elected leader, is that it?

I want independence, even if Wendy Alexander is in charge, we can change the leadership whenever we like afterwards.
As for you specific points:-

Salmond a republican:
http://www.snp.org/independence/questions/constitution/queen

SNP undertakings given for their first 100 days in government:
http://www.snp.org/policies

Government priorities:
http://www.snp.org/policies/priorities

229: Change undertaken to underwritten - all the same. Lab/Lib spend £9M on Edinburgh alone!!

244 - pwd

Or 66% did not vote for unionist parties.

Your figures!

#259 Richard: MAY not exist, or definately NOT exist? And what will Salmond's position be? Maybe retired? OR definately retired?

Salmond is driving this, so HE is the one I need to trust and I dont. He cannot even do his job as First Minister without gettng side tracked into other matters.

I just dont tust him Richard, not even nearly.

223 - Stevie G

Fine - if you can get 75% to vote for the status quo.

One vote is all it takes.

Just pointiong out if that is your style of debating no wonder you don't win many of the otherside over.

Lambasting them is hardly a good way to curry favour.

252 Honest Jack

'We are winning massive Whiskey and textile export contracts in the new markets of China and India worth billions so whats your problem?'

Where have you been? In the sixties/seventies the Scottish Borders (especially Hawick) was the greatest producer per capita of high class textiles in the country (ie the UK). The region was made up of prosperous and active communities with a plethora of work. Now it is littered with dead mills, textile employment is a fraction of what it was and the main town, Hawick, has experienced a severe population decline. Textile production has moved, and continues to move, overwhelmingly to Asia. These jobs are not coming back and there is little any government can do about it. Whisky might perform well for a while yet and a small knitwear industry may survive in a few niche markets but you can forget any long term substantial income from textiles. Anything else on this subject is nationalist make believe.

It has been a long , long , wait , at long last we are actually experiencing some political leadership within Scotland.

Dear Jack , Annabel and Nicol , wake up , wake up , can you no smell the daisies

Media 1

If the Salmond dream turns into a nightmare after Independence then look at it this way. Scotland gets to have the joyus fun of kicking him out, slagging him off and electing a new leader

#262 Wow, resort to nitpicking on spelling.

Fine - Alex Salmond reminds me of William Yancey.

264. Media 1, cape town
You appear to be caught in a loop old chum.
You wouldn't vote for anyone who has not been in charge of the country for an entire term?
Well aren't you the lucky one? that's just what Alex Salmond is suggesting.

Those who didn't vote for his government have four years to judge if it has done what it says on the tin.

btw perhaps you might suggest specific instances where the First Minister has been shirking.
This is not the general perception of the first 100 days of his governance in the media.

269 Bill Dunblane

83% of the elctorate didn't vote SNP. There is no mandate.

#278 Livion: I know what he is saying, but I dont believe him.

Look, all I am saying is this. Why cant he place independence on the back burner this term. PROVE to us that he is the man, and that the SNP is the party, and prove to us that we have nothing to fear in a complete break away from the union. PROVE to us that Scotland can only go so far and no more, and let us gain some trust in the vision.

#245 The Antifascist: dont worry about it – the response’s will influence SNP policy for years to come and form a useful archive for historians of Scotlands road to independence in the early 21st century. If you think that people wont be interested, then you are prejudging what will happen – just wait untill you see all the response’s in favour of independance and against your position as a unionist (sorry, I forgot you dont like that word – u support a unified britain, whatever that’s supposed 2 mean nowadays! Why don’t you just go unify urself?) I just know that there will be such an overwhelming response in favour of Alex and Nicola that this will propel the coming of independance! Its time! Just wait untill the response’s underline this! Perhaps there should be an exibition of the response’s – lets use the old royal high school building for this and watch the visitor’s flock to proclaim scotland’s destiny! Its time!

Please just stop , i beg you.

Everything that had to be said was said months ago and repeated on Monday , then repeated on tuesday, then will be repeated today and then again tomorrow.

#214 Madame Ecosse - Fleur d'Ecosse,

Given a Medal and then shot. Its the British way

#234

I have read the white paper and still find things wooly. There are lots of to be decided and we could do this, I know that some things have to be negociated but lets lay out what we want. We will stay in the EU, we will Leave NATO. We will claim x% of the North Sea Oil and Gas fields. How do we aim to slplit the public sector workers, what about the military, we will claim bases/ships. We will offer civil servants the chance to stay/go. These are just a few of the questions that we need to know what they think. At the moment its vote for Independence and we will work out how we are going to do it later.

195 Hen Broon-wow 80% voted for independence-so how come 80% didnt vote for the SNP a few weeks ago?

#283 Media1

"Look, all I am saying is this. Why cant he place independence on the back burner this term. PROVE to us that he is the man, and that the SNP is the party, and prove to us that we have nothing to fear in a complete break away from the union. PROVE to us that Scotland can only go so far and no more, and let us gain some trust in the vision."

What do you think the "national conversation" is for?

He is setting this up so that it won't be rushed through before people have had the opportunity to fully engage in the debate, make their views known, and listen to the views of others.

He is putting the Scottish people at the heart of this process. And his is the only party willing to put that trust in the people.

#264 Media 1 Cape Town
'I do not want the FIRST MINISTER writing political documents' Ah yes, so you dont want theFirst Minister involved in any politics!
'The SNP must prove to us how an independent Scotland would benefit us. They must show us how well Scotland CAN be run within the union '
Obviously you have NOT read the white paper, therefore suggest that you do before making any further irrelevant statements

244. pwd, Borders
Only 17%/ my my.
And what % of the electorate gave Honest Tony and Gordy Broon a mandate to run the UK, and with it Scotland too?

Even less!

So would you suggest we revoke universal suffrage because no-one's interested?

That is how you are coming across to me.

13 Edward
A referendum ballot paper setting out three questions
1. Status quo
2. Devolution MAx (to be agreed by the unionist parties)
and 3. Independence (as outlined by the SNP)

That's exactly the questions I would like on the Ballot Paper.
Let's put this to bed once and for all , at least in my life time
I do not want a referendum "tomorrow" as AS has yet , for me, to prove he is right for the job.
Democratically he must be given the opportunity as his party has the most seats and I will judge him on his showing
He has , unfortunately, already "Uturned" on Edinburgh trams and does not seem in any hurry to face up to the problems with health, education and crime.
This has disapointed me .
Is independance now his No 1 priority ?
If it is he surely is "glory hunting"
Time will tell.

P.S. May I suggest to posters that they remember
" I may not agree with your opinions but acknowledge your right to express them "
That is democracy , is it not ? Or does PC ignore that ?
The crass remarks posted in some reply's show up the intelligence levels of the persons involved - sad indeed .

woops think i drank too much coffee aahhhhh

Zoom

Thanks for that link.

It absolutely sums up the total disregard the opposition parties have for listening to the people. What is their to fear?, put forward your counter arguments please, put forward a detailed proposal for greater devolution.

It is evidenced daily on these boards that Labour supporters especially do not accept the democratic wishes of the Scottish people.

289. Geoff, SA
Last survey I saw on the subject, 45% of Labour voters support independence, including a number of Labour MSPs apparently.

#290 Talorthane: Ok then, I said before that I wont judge him as First Minister until his term is over, so I best stand by that remark. Its just that he appears to have won the vote on the basis that he would tackle the most pressing issues Scotland is faced with, yet appears to be focussed entirely on independence.

What I say on here is irrelevant, it has no bearing on anything. Whether I trust him or not means nothing in the greater scheme of things, but we all want to share our views and mine are simple. I dont trust him, so I cant buy into his vision.

But I will attempt to be more objective in the future. ALTHOUGH from time to time I may not be able to.

Livilion

you might as well bang your head against the wall instead of trying to explain the way numbers, percentages and democracy work to that twit!

To which taxpayers is Alex Salmond referring when he proposes that they pay for his plan.
The whole UK or simply Scottish taxpayers alone?

Justy.

#288 Malkster

"I have read the white paper and still find things wooly. There are lots of to be decided and we could do this, I know that some things have to be negociated but lets lay out what we want. We will stay in the EU, we will Leave NATO. We will claim x% of the North Sea Oil and Gas fields. How do we aim to slplit the public sector workers, what about the military, we will claim bases/ships. We will offer civil servants the chance to stay/go. These are just a few of the questions that we need to know what they think. At the moment its vote for Independence and we will work out how we are going to do it later."

Again, that seems to be the purpose of the "national conversation".

The White Paper is not telling us it's going to be done one way and no other, but instead kicking of a national debate where all of these issues can be explored by the public and politicians.

By the end of the period we will hopefully be in a position where we have a clearer solution for all of these questions, but not from political parties, from the public.

Forget for a moment that this is about independence or increased devolution. When was the last time that any Government in the UK engaged and involved the public in such important decisions.

Savour this new type of politics.

c'moan sheeple ...
Time we stoaped aw this merde!
If we are genuinely serious about becoming independent from our sexy English cousins ... LETS DO IT!!

Media 1

Every couple of days we hear that the SNP is obsessed with

"appeasing muslims"

"fighting with westmister"

"bickering over fishing rights"

and today....

"independence'

well thanks for keeping us up to speed!!!!!

The SNP is running the country at a speed that is required to pull it out of unionist mediocracy

293. jdships
Holyrood is in recess so there is no legislation for the government to introduce when the place is shut.

The SNP pledged to implement a raft of initiatives in their first 100 days.

The general consensus is one of surprise and mild wonderment that this government has actually made good on all of those initiatives.

#295 Admittedly he was referring to the nationalists not the nazis but it was done in a deliberately ambiguous manner I believe - as such - the deliberate double meaning invokes Godwins - he loses the internets.

lets speak positively about our plans for self-governance.
Let's show our sexy English cousins and embarressing American ones what we can do.

#288 malkster, Scotland and its not raining
Thats why its a discussion paper
'How do we aim to slplit the public sector workers, what about the military, we will claim bases/ships. We will offer civil servants the chance to stay/go'
There is in chapter 3 about negotiations regarding this ;
3.14 Transition to independence would require negotiations between the Scottish and United Kingdom Governments in relation to the terms of independence, as well as the arrangements for the transition itself. These negotiations would have to cover sharing the assets and liabilities of the United Kingdom between the remaining parts of the United Kingdom and an independent Scotland. These would include such matters as: apportionment of the national debt; allocation of reserved assets, such as the United Kingdom official reserves, the BBC, and overseas missions of the Foreign Office; future liabilities on public sector pensions, and social security benefits; the split of the defence estate and the equipment of the armed forces.

#131. Ex-pat observer
"..What mandate will someone representing a Scottish constituency have to discuss the mechanics of Scotland seceding from the Union?..."

and response #235. livilion

Actually I think it is an interesting point, as regards the possible conflicts between an MP's responsibility to his/her constituents and the wider aspects of also holding ministerial office.

Independence negotiations would require the MP for Kirkcaldy, along with others such as the MPs for Kilmarnock and for Edinburgh South West, to disregard the fact that a sizeable majority of voters in their constituencies voted for them as candidates of Labour - a pro-Union party. Thus in their capacities as Prime Minister, Chancellor and S of S for Scotland they would be acting directly against the expressed wishes of their electorates.

Perhaps there needs to be a General Election before any referendum!

#297 - i agree, polls for many years have shown significant numbers of Labour supporters to be pro-independence. An indpendent Scotland may not be run by the SNP, which is what many automatically think.

However, an independent Scotland is the only logical option if we're to emulate the success of the many other small nations like Denmark, Ireland and Norway. Hey, even Belgium and Luxembourg seem to get on fine! We can also leave behind the imperialist warmongering of the Anglo-American political psyche.

Union Jack? Thall is cac!

#293 jdships

I acknowledge your position and your right to post your views. However...

"He has , unfortunately, already "Uturned" on Edinburgh trams and does not seem in any hurry to face up to the problems with health, education and crime."

You're wrong about the uturn. He did not Uturn. He submitted to the will of Parliament, while sticking to his guns and saying that he believed that it was the wrong decision. He has never never changed that position.

There are also many who have a different opinion on his performance to date. Even though it has been only a short time, many believe he has achieved a great deal, and has laid out plans for a great deal more that it would be unrealistic to expect him to have in place already.

time we showed the world that Scotland is not jist some wee insignificant dod attached tae northern England ... we are a country ... lets start BELIEVING THAT!!

288. malkster
No Malkster its work out now what and how we are going to do it, vote on Independence later.

#293 jdships
'He has , unfortunately, already "Uturned" on Edinburgh trams'
Sorry, but you must have missed the bit where the SNP government tried to scrap the trams and were defeated by Labour and the Libdems. If anyone is to blame, blame them
Its all down to democracy, the Scottish government put it to a vote and were defeated, if the the SNP had an overall majority, then it would have been a different matter

292 livilion

I would suggest there is no mandate. There is and never has been one. For a major and irreversible consitutional change in a democratic age a majority of at least two thirds on more than one occasion would be required. Right now, we are light years from that and there is no mandate.

#293 JDships
'A referendum ballot paper setting out three questions
1. Status quo
2. Devolution MAx (to be agreed by the unionist parties)
and 3. Independence (as outlined by the SNP)
That's exactly the questions I would like on the Ballot Paper.
Let's put this to bed once and for all , at least in my life time
I do not want a referendum "tomorrow" as AS has yet , for me, to prove he is right for the job.'
This is exactly the whole point about the national conversation and why the SNP Government have put out the white paper. I understand that this will last three years (according to the media). They have laid out how they want to see the ballot paper, but have also stated that they would also go for the three question option as a result of the national conversation

Carolina are you that dude that was on here last week posting pidgeon scoscia/espanoal merda mucho?

'316 pwd

"a majority of AT LEAST TWO THIRDS on MORE THAN ONE OCCASION would be required"

You like to stack things in your favour don't you.

#296

Indeed ......it's one for cutting and copying a'la AM2 style.

Wheel it out in 6 months and rub their faces in it

295: Godwin's Law doesn't apply here as it is a forum centred on Nationalist discussion.

#321
the man wae nae dug ...

naw but whit dae ye want?

... and whats wae aw this pretensious "dude" stuff?

sounds like ... yer ane mooth is nae stranger tae the broon stuff fae the ither end of the alimentary canal ... yea?

327

Iv'e been known to dollop a couple of bit's about

...but you sir, I salute

Why is the taxpayer to foot the bill for wee eck's propaganda?

Oh how i love the unionist fishing in the morning :D

324: Is that DR as in Doctor or DR as in related to JR!!

:-)

#320 Zoom

I agree with you on that.

The Lib Lab Con Statement stated that they would not give succour to those who would try to break up the union.

It would appear that they have completely written off the third of the electorate that consistently vote for independence.

It's as if they forget that political parties represent people, and that every insult that is hurled at the SNP is directed at those voters.

It's as if they forget that political parties represent people....

BTW

what happened to that Galactic canibal dude?

hopefully someone has given him a zap and transformed him into ectoplasmic slime...even AM2 thought he was a wanger

#328
ooooch shoooogly Doug-ly

yer a shameless wee hussy

The so-called debate here is very different from that in any other forum - independence for the Scots can't come soon enough for most commentators.

http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?threadID=7125...

The prize is that the English keep their subsidy (min £5bn per year, often more), have no Scots MPs influencing English affairs when the influence is not recpirocated, don't have to listen to Scots complaints that they are not really British anyway, and Scots will need to satisfy passport control at the border to visit England.

No need for a 'national converstation'. It's a no-brainer. Just do it! Make the English happy.

#255. Talorthane
"...You have to either only give two options, accept the largest group (even without a minority), ask people what their second option would be, or have a second referendum with only 2 options."

I can see your general point, as regards practicality.

On that basis, I would say that there should be only two options in a referendum: present style of devolution or independence.

If a majority option for status quo, it doesn't mean that DevolutionPlus was debarred; simply that it would be a matter for subsequent consideration in the ongoing course of political debate & negotiation. rather than some kind of one-off instant change.

This is a practical aspect, both to avoid confusion in the referendum as to what elements should be included in DevPlus and to take account of the fact that some aspects may not be Scotland's to take unilaterally, as they may affect other parts of UK.

#329
hand of god ...
oy oy oy ...
carino ...
matey ...
whit's the matter did yer budgie die or whit?

hola David in London ...
really matey ...
so ye want us Scots tae still pay furr yer English ways ... ooch ya wee shag ... ye urr so sexy when ye get angry matey

#336 Ken S.

I also believe that to have the option of a vote of NO and a return to full Union on a referendum is pointless

#335
Taff ...
I suspect ye urr really a jealous Welsh geezer from Patagonia or some other provence of pais gales ...
but seriously old chap ... my dear fellow ...

we have bank-rolled our sexy English cousins for too long ... we have subsidised you since the discovery of North Sea oil in the 1970's

We have put up with yer vascillating and yer inferior system of education / law / police for far too long matey ... carino mio ... so long and thanks fur aw they fish pal ...

Time for us to say adios cousin ... or possibly "hasta manana" old bean

and another thing Taff the laff ... old chap ... my dear fellow ...
Its a wee bit presumptious to ASS-ume that Scotland will still subsidise Inglaterra pal

Make Scotland independent or scrap the parliament.

Devolution, in my view, is a complete waste of money. It's simply duplication and waste, and currently staffed by idiots. It adds nothing we'd not already get from the UK parliament.

I'd love to see a list of the 'achievements', and the current cost. I imagine it'd make for horrifying reading.

I'd prefer to scrap it, but even independence to me is more favourable than the continuation of this waste of space.

335 David in London

Check your passport again. It's European !
No border problems, unless you're planning a ' Passport to Pimlico.'

Hopefully we will make you happy, soon !

#236 We have now councillors paid a full time wage
and we should now be checking how many of them are full time councillors. ( Please do not compare to MPs who also have two jobs long past time we got rid of them as well . OK we would have no MPs hey maybe I`ve got it right this time)
#271 Having become disillusioned with various party politicians who have been in power I voted SNP to see if they could prove that there were some intelligent caring politicians in Scotland who would make a difference. Unfortunately when we vote we take the whole manifesto but that does not make it right. I would have thought that there were issues that were more urgent especially the ones that they had been calling for when in opposition.

#344
ohh Witch of Eastwick ...
The Scots lack of educational opportunities ... and I might add our lousy fitba team ... are probably due tae the fact that modern youth noo like a "wee toke" rather than genuine self enhancement ... and the fact that oan the streets of Possilpark and Easterhoose etc ... a hit of smack is cheaper than a football

No doubt you will blame that oan the bumper harvest in Afghanistan or sumfink ... but hey carino ... git wae the real deal pal

I had to laugh when Labour said the white paper was a waste of money!!!
Calling the kettle black, this from a party who built a horrible building, 10 times the original budget when there were perfectly good buildings sitting empty.
Impose a tram system which will not benefit the majority, while causing more gridlock and hassle!!

#351
metha old chap ... carino!!
If you really are Dr Ewing ...
hmmm
and as for swing voters ...
ch-hay-sooooosss kreeestee!
1. I enjoy humour mixed with serious social comment

2. I am as Scottish as anyone else here.

3. I speak other languages you racist numpino pompino

4. get a life and forget "floaters ... stoaters 'heid th'bas' and any other "swings!"

5. I have lived & worked in other countries ... and appreciate how parochial Scots can get when they huv nivir even left their ane streets

hope that addresses your crit carino ...
hmmm?

347. Methalions
"This place is worse than the BBC for repeats."

Aye - but at least here you don't have to pay a licence fee for them!

#235 - No livilion, I am saying that should Scotlad vote for independence, the UK government would have no mandate to represent England, Wales and Northern Ireland in the subsequent negotiations surrounding the separation. This would especially be so if the UK Government was led by an MP representing a Scottish constituency. In the break-up negotiations all sides are going to be fightinghard to get the best terms - I m afraid it will not just be a matter of Scotland waving goodbye, there will be a number of issues to discuss and these discussions will have to take place between the representatives of all concerned parties.

#251 - Are only those Scots who agree with you allowed to take part then? Unfortunately, that does seem to be the position of many SNP supporters.

# 63 Guga II, Rockall
Before you get rid of the monarchy, look at the alternatives - President Blair and First Lady Cherie - I don't think so

Slimy Salmond is being true to his politics of opportunism and spin - so we cannot really complain, its the nature of the beast. This paper might bring about reforms and improvements to the powers of devolution and that is to be welcomed However reforms within the union are just that and are no substitute for independence which is the real goal of the NATS. Thankfully so called real independence has little or no chance of being realised, the Scottish people are too astute to support a move to shoot their foot off. The SNP are just another reformist party of capital and this paper is typical of them - tilting at windmills. Wake up you diehard NATS this a not so clever move to convince your leader Salmond means business when he knows within his own mind that "independence" is a pipe dream.

#355 Bike Man

"I had to laugh when Labour said the white paper was a waste of money!!!
Calling the kettle black, this from a party who built a horrible building, 10 times the original budget when there were perfectly good buildings sitting empty.
Impose a tram system which will not benefit the majority, while causing more gridlock and hassle!!"

Not to mention joining the Libs and Tories in ignoring the stated plans of the elected Government to hold a national consultation, and the setting up of a parallel debate that excludes the discussion on independence.

#357
Kenneth my dear fellow ...

As one who frequently tuned in to Auntie Beeb whilst working overseas ... all I can say is ... better than sliced bread ... I nivir missed the BBC World Service broadcasts once ... loved it ... nae styooooopit commercials or adverts tae ... BRILLIANT!!!

#359 Ex pat

"Are only those Scots who agree with you allowed to take part then? Unfortunately, that does seem to be the position of many SNP supporters."

The SNP have set this up so that everyone can become involved.

It is the other parties who wish to exclude the views of those who they disagree with.

#308

Exactly but we need to know what the SNP plan to ask for and hope to get. They must know how much of the national debt we are expected to inherit. Details convince people to vote. Salmond is a tremendous politician and very bright but over the years his weakness has always been detail.

#360 Sedov

Only two years ago there were few people who thought that the SNP could ever win an election, least of all Labour.

So what if the prospects of a positive vote on independence seem slight at present.

Times change, and sometimes very quickly.

#308 - the UK Government would have no mandate to take part in such discussions and so could not take part in them. The English, the Welsh and the Northern Irish would have to be asked who they wanted to represent them before negotiations could took place.

As that section you have quoted points out, there would be major issues of lomg term importance to discuss, and all sides will want to secure the best possible deal. For example, why would the English ant to pay for a Trident programme approved by a UK Parliament? Why woul the English wish to subsidise Nortern Ireland when most of that provinces population has its roots in either Ireland or Scotland? And so on.

#346 - Clearly you are not familiar with irony

#360
sodoff sedov ...
carino mio ...
my dear misguided chap ...
Jist because we break the union wae Inglaterra doesnae mean we urr "shooting oor feet aff"

Pipe dream??

That would be the one oor sexy cousins fae Inglaterra and oor embarriessing wans fae across the Pond wae their ane wee "Tortilla Curtain" promote ... yes?

The myth goes like this ...

1. The Union wae Inglaterra makes us strong (micturating nonsense)

2. Scotland would be weak without the sexy English cousins and oor embarressing Yanqui wans tae bail us oot (deficating nonsense)

Clearly not all SNP supporters believe this. I quote #251:

"I see your are now standing up and shouting about something that does not concern you. Did your mother not warn you what happens to people that stick their nose into other peoples business, it's not pretty. Maybe you have had a chat to eddy, who I think is losing his nerve."

Well, Polaquita, you're in fine form today! Haven't laughed so much in a long time. Frighteningly tending to agree with you- if I'm understanding correctly. The again , who knows. As I had said, mejor escribir en castellano, but I have to say you're getting your points across in guid Scots.
Disagree with Auntie Beeb, though. It used to be good , but now it's just a biased news outlet like all the rest-whether right or left wing. Used to be straight down the line!

#364 - A hugely important point. e also need to know what the other side's negotiating position is going to be. The Scottish negotiators can set out their stalls for something, but there is no guarantee they will get it. This applies also in areas such as oil and gas. What if the English do not agree that 90% of reserves belomg to Scotland? That will have to be negotiated or arbitrated.

And at the end of the process, we are all going to have to live together and work together closely in a number of vitally important areas.

#372 Ex Pat

"What if the English do not agree that 90% of reserves belomg to Scotland? That will have to be negotiated or arbitrated."

It will be arbitrated according to international law.

Even if we achieved as little as 10% then we would be in profit.

However, it is more likely that we would have our claim for around 90% affirmed.

A couple of points:

The Labour, Lib Dem and Tory leaders speak as if everyone who voted for them in May 2007 is against Independence - this is clearly not true.

The comments about the SNP being against consensus by Nicol Stephen are just plain wrong. Why shouldn't a political party (the SNP) not stick to its position that it campaigned on at the start of any negotiations about the future of Scotland?

Surely all politics is about reaching agreements - even when you start from very different positions. Look at Ireland.

#375 AM2

I never saw you pass comment on the numerous occasions when the English newspapers and unionist posters here have said essentially the same thing about Scotland, if it were independent.

#373 - No, it will be arbitrated on a basis that both sides agree to.

If we achieved anything less than 90% of ownership it would blow a huge hole in Scotand's finances, as would a decline in the oil price at any time, so we had better hope that our case is as strong as the SNP says it is. Even then, there is a debate as to whether the oil money will cover the loss of money Scotland currently recives under the Barnett Formula. It all means we need a whole lot more detail about the practical implications of independence so that people can decide whether it really is in Scotand's best interests.

As I recall, the SNP has been promising that independence negotiations will take around six months. I imagine that most people will agree this is a wildly optimistic timeframe

#375. Have you ever looked at the Telegraph/ Mail/ Guardian/ LES/ or CIF forums, you will find some real nasty anti-Scottish poison on these from some of our more elightened Anglo Saxon cousins and there treachorous Scottish sychophants. So less of your faux indignation AM2 and debate the issue, you xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
These forums are polite and mild compared to some of the Little Englander comments.

I honestly believe that there are a lot of deluded individuals here who are divorced from the real world.

The only people who are talking about a referendum are the press, the hacks in the political parties and the hardliners - most ordinary voters could not give a flying duck about the issue at present and that even includes some of the SNP vote - the soft-core who voted on the basis that independence was off the agenda for present.

If I speak to people at work or in the pub about politics they are not talking about a referendum or even independence - the issues that worry voters are taxes, terrorism and public services. Politicians have a hell of a lot of work to do to enthuse the people either way. My worry about the referendum (if it ever happens) is that it will be one of the most negative political campaigns ever (on both sides) with big money having more of a say than the people.

All politicians have a duty to go out an engage with the people over this issue in a serious manner instead of the yah-boo nonsense we have at present.

#375 - To be fair if any final proposals were based on what was being posted on that site, the whole process would lose all credibility. Having stated that he wants an even-handed and reasonable debate, Salmond will have to ensure that there is one. Any indications that the debate is a charade will be hugely damaging to him and to the SNP.

#380 Most newspaper forums are not representative of ordinary people but are hijacked by extremists - this is as true of the Scotsman site as it is of the Times or the BBC HYS or any other press site.

#380 - How do you know they are Anglo-Saxons? Do you have to be a Celt to be a Scot?

#381 - I could not agree more.

#360. Your name calling is like your comments on these boards pure playground ya boo rhetoric and as detached from reality as your unionist gang hut inmates. Denial and bitterness are so destructive.

Scotland is a wonderful country populated with the nicest people on earth, such a pity you try and fail to undermine that.

#378 Ex Pat

"No, it will be arbitrated on a basis that both sides agree to."

Arbitrated means that someone else becomes involved because an agreement cannot be reached.

If there is no agreement, then it will be decided according to international law.

The level of oil is less important to the running of the country as the SNP plan to use the bulk of the revenue to set up a trust fund. So if it is less than expected then it just means that the trust fund will not be as big. We will still be able to run the country, and run it well.

As far as the arguments about Barnett and other economic claims are concerned, we have never had figures released that Westminster didn't want us to see. In the ensuing debate, I would expect the SNP to reveal much more information that has been denied us in the past.

During that time, we will also begin to see the effects of the Scottish Economic Advisory Committe and its influence in stimulating the Scottish economy.

#375. AM2

Erm, I think Mr Coghlan was being sarcastic about the poster he quoted!

Though I agree -- there is much kneejerk Braveheart stuff there, as on these boards!

Full respect for forward-looking Unionists, Devolutionists and Independenistas arguing their respective viewpoints, but the yah-boo/never-forget -what-happened-in-[insert date at least a century back] ones can be a bit tiresome .

#376 Martin - and not everyone who supports the SNP supports independence either - we have a political system that is a lot more fluid in the movement of voters than in the past. I know of many who voted for the SNP not out of enthusiasm for independence but because they wanted to give Blair a kicking on Iraq. The same was true in 1997 - many voted for Labour not out of enthusiasm but to give the Tories a kicking for the Thatcher/Major years.

#384. :o) :o) :o) :o) :o) :o) :o) :o) :o) :o) :o) :o)

Please stop my ribs are aching, you unionists are priceless. Pure music hall stuff this.

#372#373

Anybody who even dreams that westminster will 'GIVE AWAY' any potential natural energy reserves is frankly deluding themselves.

"It will be arbitrated according to international law."

Yes! well recent history shows International law can be bent to sanction almost anything. Best not go down that road the more powerful nations always win. That why they created International law!.

#212. howyoudoingboy: Aye!!!

A medal is what I'd give you and it would say..........

Hypothetical Situation.

As we know, Salmond is going to avoid his duties as First Minister to concentrate on independence.

What I want to know is, what happens to Salmond and the SNP if the people of Scotland STILL decide that they want to be part of the union? and lets be absolutely honest here...Its probably safe to assume that the majority of people will vote against independence.

Is Salmond gambling on the people trusting in him?

#396 howyoudoingboy

"Anybody who even dreams that westminster will 'GIVE AWAY' any potential natural energy reserves is frankly deluding themselves."

Labour didn't want to give away more powers to the Scottish Parliament, yet they have just conceded that this may have to happen.

"Yes! well recent history shows International law can be bent to sanction almost anything. Best not go down that road the more powerful nations always win. That why they created International law!."

Fortuantely, Scotland has its own, well developed legal system, so we won't be unaware of the process that we will be dealing with.

#388. Methalions: They could all come other to live, regster to vote and double our populations over night then We'd be a country of 10.8Million people and some folk would see that is a bigger country to make independent the foir the ones who are scaried of our size.

#391. So you will agree then that these comments are there. Let us see you condemn them when you have ferreted out your little gems on here. But like your fellow inmates you are completely blinkered, as was wee Joke who has now resigned, due to Alex Salmonds demolition of his parties disgraceful hegemony.
You have no idea of what I am equipped to do or see, and that is how it stays. Unlike your little self who spreads his invented bio on these forums to try and make yourself seem windswept and credible. You are incredible and a joke, pure entertainment reeking of bitterness and sour grapes.

God bless Alex Salmond and the SNP. :o)

365 Talorthane - you are correct in saying that things can change -events dear boy - and that is exactly what happened with New Labour whose suport for Iraq cost them dear. It was not so much that the Scottish people wanted independence or even the SNP -they wanted to protest against NL and the SNP were the party they chose to express their disgust - and give them change from war policies - apart of course, from the many labour voters who abstained. By the way,the majority of Scots did not vote for the SNP. Now, unless there is another Iraq or similar then independence is highly unlikely to be the choice of the majority of Scots. We are far more likely to get a move to the left ( its happening slowly now) because of the unrest among a growing number of workers and the pro bosses policies of Brown than any growing support for independence. This would really put Salmonds "socialist" creditials under scrutiny. #374 Carol etc etc, Sorry, have not got the will or time to try and understand what you are on about -perhaps you have had too much Spanish sun.

391
286
375

When all else fails - stir up racial divide...

Its a boring pattern AM2...

Post your own dross dressed as fact
Argue for a few hours
Leave the board in the maliase you cause
Come back a few hours later and play the race card

God you are so predictable. You'd think you were paid to do this...

Dear Scotsman,

Sorry this isn't to do with the story, BUT why oh WHY is yer Jobs site "Scottish Jobs today" Putting up the describtion of jobs up in Black writtening with a grey background. The Black writtening just blends in to the back ground, it's anyoing I can't read it.

Please fix, I'm sure it wasn't in that sorry state when I look at it a few weeks ago.

#402 - The English and Scottish representatives will have to agree to the arbitration forum or they can be no arbitration forum. If that were to happen, Scotland could then seek to make its case in a court of law, although where this would be is open to quesition, or to appeal to international opinion. But arbitration is not something that can be imposed by one side on the other, it has to be agreed.

And whether we like it or not, at the end of the process Scotland will still need to ensure that England is its very good friend as it will remain our most important trading partner and close co-operation in areas such as the environment and energy will be vital.

As for the oil money itself, I agree that we need many more answers. Some believe that it means Scotlad subsidises the rest fthe Uk, while others claim that even if you include Scotland is still subsidised by Westminster. We need many more facts in this area and much less propaganda.

Opinion poll
If a referendum were held tomorrow would you vote for independence from the rest of the UK?

Yes
79%
No
21%
1,229 votes Vote now

WOW.... This must be the reason for the retching and spewing coming from the unionist gang today. At first it sounded like the sour grapes had got them, but when you see this poll it explains all.
Most opinion polls form there opinions from 1000 people, so this one must mean that 79% of us want independence, WOW. No wonder the po faced unionist tribe are ganging up on Salmond in Holyrood, they are sh!t scared.

Does anyone find it contradictory and pre-judgemetal to be talking about 3 possible routes - the status quo, independence and devolution max - yet leave out one of the options (devolution max) on the proposed referendum ballot?

Scotland Expects Every Man-Woman- And Child to do Their Sovereign Duty For ENGLAND that green and pleasant land!!!!!!!

#375 -isn't that just a joke on the SNP website? Do we just need to lighten up a bit?
x

So, AM2, old bean, did you leave a comment on the wonderous www.anationalconversation.com?

There's a fair smattering of the usual mentalists on board, but some obviously heartfelt genuine comments.

My favourite from the half baked school has to be the following from Mr/Mrs/Ms McKenzie of Glasgow at number 206:

"And with comments like the opening one ("No man has the right to set a limit on the march of a nation"), I'd rather we don't give Mr Salmond an army thanks."

Shows an in depth perception of the document yet at the same time suggests that FM Salmond is a war monger in waiting. Classic dissemination of fear right up there with this classic.

http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=483070357&size=o

@410

nothing we dont already know mate.

349 European Scot

European? I think you'll find European nations have border controls between them, whether for European passports or not. If the Scots are to be independent let's make it real, with all the symbols of statehood. You are probably confused by thinking Europe is a state. It isn't, it's just a badge.

How strange that Alex Salmond thinks "you won't need a passport to visit your granny in England." But it's not up to him. There's a 10:1 ratio of voters who say you will, and MP's being as self-serving as they are, they will listen to the voters with or without a referendum on the matter.

PS The oil will just about make good the Barnett formula, sometime just before it runs out - but you're doing the right thing - be independent.

I think Carolina is making more sense than most on this forum.

Quite amazing the negativity and the panic that Salmond has engendered amongst the "what's the cost" crowd. The blinding fear that all will end soon without the protection of Mother England.. what will befall us? How can we manage? All on our lonesome..no one to look after us. We'd actually have to behave like a nation instead of pretending to be one. God forbid that that should happen!
So let's just keep on with our pretendy parliament, take the slops and other handouts that Westminster and Gordon Brown hand us and be thankful. This way we can keep our heads in the sand, and paray that the manna keeps rolling in.

#405 Sedov

"It was not so much that the Scottish people wanted independence or even the SNP -they wanted to protest against NL and the SNP were the party they chose to express their disgust - and give them change from war policies - apart of course, from the many labour voters who abstained. By the way,the majority of Scots did not vote for the SNP. Now, unless there is another Iraq or similar then independence is highly unlikely to be the choice of the majority of Scots. "

That explanation seems valid enough, and may explain, to some extent, the result of the election.

However, it does not increase the change in support since the election, where (according to the most recent poll) the SNP are now up to 48%.

It may be that your explanation is correct, but that things have changed dramatically since then, and that the expected Labour comeback is no longer certain.

Or it may be that the change in public mood was only partly explained by a desire for a new government and that there was a significant element of positive support for the SNP.

Re 103. I don't think any one of the place names will do for Baron Joke's title. Sliddery - a little hamlet on Arran would probably be best. The word "Sliddery" comes from the Gaelic meaning "Field of Slaughter" and that's precisely what happened to Labour during the Scottish Parliamentary & Local Govt elections at the hands of the SNP. What a wonderful way for us all to remember the Big Joke of McConnel. I pity poor Africa if he gets there!

#411 Zoom - Salmond himself has been a lot less confrontational of late - the same could not be said for some of the more zealous members of the SNP I have had to deal with. The same is true for Wendy Alexander (assuming she becomes the new Scottish labour leader) - she needs to reign in the eejits like Lord Foulkes and his ilk.

#412

Do you work for POPULUS, MORI or GALLUP because you are an "expert" at opinion polls. Yeo they just ask the first 1000 people omline to vote and thats why they are so accurate. Last week POPULUS put SNP support at 48% and support for Independence at 31%, this must be the biggest surge in political history. Or maybe only certain people can be bothered going online to vote. You work it out.

#398 Media 1

Salmond has a whole battery of Civil Servants to pursue the Independence case. That is one of the priviledges of being in Goverment, as so often demonstrated by Tony Blair.

Salmond will press on with his FM duties, all the while unpicking the Westminster shackles (with the help of the opposition parties it now seems).

I don't think you are "safe to assume" anything concerning how the Scottish people will vote in relation to Independence and my guess would be that even at this moment those in favour are approaching the 50% mark. Time will tell.

#413 NaUoaN

"Does anyone find it contradictory and pre-judgemetal to be talking about 3 possible routes - the status quo, independence and devolution max - yet leave out one of the options (devolution max) on the proposed referendum ballot?"

That's an open invitation to the Lib Dems (or other party) to get involved and represent and argue for that position.

They have said that they are open to other points of view and even mentioned federalism.

The Lib Dems have a lot of thinking to do as to whether they are likely to ever be offered such a role again.

#412 MUMFI

Where did you get that poll?

#424. What point are you failing to make with this rambling, are you John Prescott?

GOD BLESS ALEX SALMOND AND THE SNP.

#410. A-Men_2

"..AM2 will moderate any and all usernames that even minisculey resemble AM2.....

..so, anyone who thinks they can ... argue fairly against AM2, think again. "

Personally I think it is quite right to object to attempts to undermine someone's online identity by similar names. That isn't "arguing fairly"; simply indicating that they've run out of reasoned argument and got bored with straightforward childish abuse.

#428. YOUR HAVING A LAUGH.

#418 David in London

"European? I think you'll find European nations have border controls between them, whether for European passports or not. If the Scots are to be independent let's make it real, with all the symbols of statehood. You are probably confused by thinking Europe is a state. It isn't, it's just a badge."

Have you ever travelled across the European union by train?

I have, frequently, and have never been asked for my passport when travelling from on EU country to another.

Flights are a different matter, presumably more to do with security.

#418 David in London, London
Hate to correct you
But on mainland europe, within the EU, you really dont have border posts.
You are free to drive accross borders, which at times you dont even know youve crossed it as there is no border post

#388

Westminster as the the highest legislative authority in the UK. will decide who or who does not vote in any referendum.Which may include 'ALL OF THE UNITED KINGDOM" and not just Scotland

Tell me is it fair for wealthy 'landowners' etc to vote whilst not actually
'living' in Scotland whilst others. May live and work in England (and other countries) but were born and have relatives in Scotland and not only freely
move between each 'nation'. But also intend to retire in Scotland and will leave family 'Born' in England when they do so.

#430. You have missed the point by so much you have to be Wendy Alexander.

It would only take two years to prepare the papers for a referendum on independence, so why should Mr Salmond want to spend thousands of scottish taxpayers pounds travelling the country waffling on about it? If he is serious on the subject of independence and giving the people the power to say Aye or Nae, waiting until the next election in 2011 will mean even more thousands going down the tubes: get the papers prepared and post them in 2009/10 or stick with the devolution. It will matter not if Westminster refuses to sanction independence if there is a vast majority vote from the Scottish electorate: home and abroad, of course.

#426 You are exactly the type of nat who gives decent moderate nats a bad name. Calling scots who support unionism "traitors" is quite frankly absurd. Just because they have a different view to you to the political system that this country has does not make them any less patriotic than you.

glad to see chippiness is alive and well under the the snats! having said that i support scotland and any team playing england!
unfortunately i dont share alec's vision and if the conver wi the peeps ends up in independence (surely not! is it me?) i wont be hanging around.

#426, 429

Surely:

Yours, for Scotland?

#438

Of course it does, you muppet! Don't have a go at people because they have spines and take reasoned & principled stances on the issues at hand and of the day.

Not of all of us are pussies who sit on the fence. Besides, have I taught you nothing of THE BRUCE and THE WALLACE? Did they not fight, did THEY NOT GIVE THEIR LIVES that Scotland might be free?

Traitor does not even begin to touch the description of unionism. You cannot be both a Scottish Patriot and a unionist; the two are anathema.

#426 You are exactly the type of nat who gives decent moderate nats a bad name. Calling scots who support unionism "traitors" is quite frankly absurd. Just because they have a different view to you to the political system that this country has does not make them any less patriotic than you.

#435. MUMFI, Iceland.
Maybe on this occasion; maybe not.
Ain't the first time I've seen name-spoiling done on these boards, though.

Miss H (really Mr H), as a paid servant of the SNP, is there anything you want to tell us about the Council Tax freeze?

#418 David

I think you will find that you are wrong. Most EU nations have no border controls between them:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement

I cannot see England and Scotland setting these up after independence as it would be totally unnecessary. At present you can travel from the UK to Eire without a passport, for example.

#439...thats fair enough im sure will manage without you

#445 Walter Ego

Arent u tired of asking that question yet??? yawn

2440. Zoom / 2:07pm 15 Aug 2007

I feel also that newer generations are more open to independence for a variety of reasons."

I would argue that the younger generations are generally open to anything because they are on the whole politically illiterate. Having taught economics and business management for the last 15 years I have found that young adults have increasingly less interest in the political system than their predescessors. I kid you not but I one person in my Higher Business Management class who thought that Alex Salmond was the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.

Although there is all this talk of debating and engaging I have a nagging feeling that many will be swayed one way or other by simplistic bullshit.

I think it's a breath of fresh air to have a politician do exactly what he says. Some questions which big AS wil tackle at his forums.

Can we manage our own affairs? Y
Can we encourage investment from big business? Y
Will be well placed if and when we decide to join the EU? Y

Bring it on I say. Scots have been long regarded as the greatest thinkers of our time and I for one believe that our greatest export is our intelligence which a Scottish run government could help deliver in todays global market place. Our education system is second to none and has been that way since Glasgow Uni first opened it's doors.

Naysayers and those frightened of change will always try hold back those who want to improve the status quo.

Rise now...

#442 I tend to agree with you!

#440 zoom

that's called a "neverendum"

438

Excellent post Not a Unionist etc. They just don't get it, do they?

And to #452

Jeez you can't be much of a teacher if your class that Alex was the PM...or am I being simplistic?
Could it be something to do with Labour's 'Education, Education... b/s?

#316 pwd: are u deliberately trying 2 pretend not 2 understand? How can anyone possibly say that there is no mandate 4 independance? If theres no mandate, then how come the goverment of scotland is snp? Of course theres a mandate – if there wasnt, then opinion polls would show support 4 independence at less than 10%! Also this is the whole point of the national conversation: to build a mandate! If there is some doubt just now, then there will be no doubt after Alex and Nicola have the national conversation with the people of scotland! Just wait untill u see the support for a referendum which will emerge from the national coversation! Its completely undemocratic 2 suggest that independance is a major constitutional change and that a majority of at least 2 thirds on more than one ocasion would be required to make it happen. If scotland wants it 2 be time then it will just have 2 make it time – just wait untill u hear the results of the national conversation! Its time!

#453 Shaken:

I agree with you to a point.

Can we manage our own affairs? Absolutely

Can we encourage investment? Absolutely

However, based on the state of our schools, our prison system, our health care, our violent crime, anti social behaviour and a host of other problems that need addressing, the question is...WILL WE manage our own affairs and encourage investment?

Those questions are impossible to answer and I have seen nothing from Salmond to suggest that we should vote for independence (at this time...)

#438. I am sure it has not escaped your beady eye that the settled will of the Scottish nation is to have a SNP first minister and the SNP as their government.
Therefore your limp and pathetic attempt at trying to paint the SNP moderates as having a bad name holds no water. They have a rather good name. All groups of humans have their extreme number. The SNP are no different. They are a legitimate and credible force in Scottish politics who are doing rather well thanks, but then that would not have been to difficult given the treacherous behaviour of the previous incumbents.
I stand by what I have said, so all that remains for me to say now is GOD BLESS ALEX SALMOND AND THE SNP.

Opinion poll
If a referendum were held tomorrow would you vote for independence from the rest of the UK?

Yes
79%
No
21%
1,229 votes Vote now
WOW.....:o)

#420 With any new regime there is always a reasonable amount of time that voters are willing to give and will support that new party. The big decisions are yet to come for the SNP especially around the budget and the NHS so time will tell. Also, Scotttish Labour is regrouping and hoping for a more dynamis leader ( but where?) there is however a telling factor that the NATS must be careful about and that is the Brown factor and whether or not this will last as the wider scene can influence continued support for the SNP to labours advantage. . Because the SNP are now and will continue to to compromise with the big bosses of capital, many of their more diehard supporters will start to become restless for independence and more radical change which as I have said many times - cannot be acheived in a global and market economy. the SNP are just the same as all the rest of the them -a bosses party controlled by capital. so watch this space.

450

Good afternoon Magic Hoops. I won't tire of asking the question (ie "what's happening to the Council Tax freeze?") until I get a satisfactory answer. Miss H (really Mr H) is a paid servant of the SNP (there are others on these forums) who knows exactly what's going on but chooses not to tell the rest of us. Why?

Glad to hear it #454.

I knew all these years serving as an MEP for the largest constituency in the European Parliament would come in handy ;-)

418 David in London

I have no confusion thinking Europe is a state, I live in two European countries, France and Spain.
You do not have the kind of border controls that you have in mind.
On one occasion my car was stopped as the police were looking out for drug smugglers, and they were all tooled up to deal with them, but that was an exception.
Normally you drive slowly, but straight through, the booths previously used by customs officials are now empty and unmanned.
Only at Calais / Dover do you have to show passports.
England / Scotland not very likely.

There should be enough oil for quite a few years yet,
' Well,' after independence !

452

Spot on Not a Unionist etc. Salmond's "conversation" will sway nobody.

#455 howyoudoingboy

"that's called a "neverendum""

That's the empty, sloganistic nonsense that cotributed to the Lib Dems current 8% in the polls.

As long as there are enough members of the public to sustain an electable political party, then it will continue.

What is wrong with that?

That's not the fault of the SNP, it's becuase a lot of people are voting for them, and have patiently persisted in articulating their case even when times were tough.

Never have the SNP said that unionist parties should not be heard, or discussion on the union should be avoided.

#458 There is only a mandate if the people vote for it - and 34% is not a mandate - in any case the SNP said themselves in the run up to the election that voting for them was not a vote for independence - that the people would have their say in a referendum.

That's also why I'd prefer a referendum so at least we could get the issue over with one way or other and concentrate on the bread and butter politics.

460

MUMFI, playing the religion card now, are we?

Excellent post Madame they just do not get it do they?
Your support is appreciated, can I add you to my Christmas cards list?

If a referendum were held tomorrow would you vote for independence from the rest of the UK?

Yes
79%
No
21%
1,245 votes

WOW :o)

#459 Media 1

You agree "absolutely" that we can manage our own affairs and encourage investment and that the last executive have left us with completely chaotic schools, prisons and health-care.

You have just made the perfect argument for Independence. Thank you.

#459

Point taken there are a number of social ills which would give anyone pause for thought.

Can we blindly attribute these to unionist rule? i don't think that is fair. Is it a contributing factor? I believe so..

Witness places just in Glasgow like Thornliebank, Cranhill, Sighhill - real poor places...never seen a penny of investment since the war. Would this change? Maybe not but these places bread the type of social and moral panic that we are all familiar with. I think we would stand a better chance of dealing with these places which I believe are part of the proble,

Jeez if I lived in Cranhill I'd probably be dead by now...

462

Salem, this is how Hitler started.

#463,

Be you dumb, be you stupid? Ever heard of a Parliamentary recess, mate? Parliament reconvenes on 3 September. Keep an eye out.

#470 I take it that's the Scotsman poll - rather unscientific to be quoted - I prefer real votes in real elections. Until there is a referendum no-one can say for certain what the Scottish people want.

#470 MUMFI and #436 Richard - Thanks.

I found it.

I'd been searching google for "vote now". :o

But, anyway, it looks good.

#463 Walter Ego

Well the reason escapes me why not. Whether it be they are witholding it as a slap in the face for Labour/Lib Dems & Tory later, havent finalised the plans for it yet or any other such reason.

It would be interesting to know

#467 Talorthane

...8% and falling.....

Got to be said , Ya dancer.

course it makes sense to askthe people. im more than happy to pay for this.

If the Opposition wont even talk. then thats there loss.

Salmond is a Scottish Hero.

He has the vision, (maybe he doesnt have the unionists vision) but they had their chance to talk.

Now salmond Talking.

Now the people talk back.

Thig Ar Latha

474

Madame, unfortunately you contradict the very many SNP contributors to these forums who say that Mr Swinney is spending his waking hours meeting the 32 Councils - you can't both be right.

PS What's happening to the Council Tax freeze?

#476 NaUoaN

Exactly.

But, it is evidence that may offer an explanation for why the unionist parties (who say the public don't want independence) are so fearful to have a referendum.

Re 440. The No vote didn't win in 1970. More people voted "Yes" than "no". But by joogery pokery of the Unionists at Westminster and beyond, more than 40% of the entire electorate (including dead people, people declared lunatics, prisoners of HM and Peers of the Realm who were still on the electoral roll at the time) had to vote "Yes". Unfortunately, not enough of the entire electorate voted "Yes" although it was more than those who voted "No". Labour tried to rig the scottish parliamentary election this year, but failed. What we've got to make sure is that any attempt by them and the other failed unionists to rig a vote on independence or whatever is truly exposed and that bit comes under the control of the UN!

#468 NaUoN

By your logic Gordon Brown's Labour Government has no mandate either.

The fact that it was elected under the FPTP system is irrelevant to the simple percentage vote recieved. No getting away from that!

+ newsNight 14th.

Someone asking what England things about breaking the union.

They always say they pay for us.

dont think so ,
we're after a better deal. (Barnett p*sh.)

least scotlands money can go to scotland.

478

Magic Hoops, they know what's going on - and they don't like it ...

What would Dewar be saying? Is he turning in his grave do you reckon?

Walter Ego, away and bother a sheep. Is John Mackenzie still there?

Opinion poll
If a referendum were held tomorrow would you vote for independence from the rest of the UK?

Yes
79%
No
21%
1,252 votes Vote now

WOW ........WE ARE SMOKIN :o)

#476. Does continually shooting into your foot not hurt? If that is the case, why are the unionist traitors in Holyrood ganging up to prevent it. Shivers looking for spines to run up :o)