He s a safe bet I think.

Not after ... yawn ... 2010. Right? Please don't, I don't have the energy to reply.

Blimey , one party state eh ?

Its taken him less time in number 10 to turn into a delusional despot than any Prime minister so far.

Can somebody remind me if we actually voted communist by mistake ?

Unimportant. We'll soon have our INDEPENDENT SCOTLAND, so what goes on in London will just be so much gossip and of little relevance to us. Roll on that happy day.

Head of a one party state - like Mao ,Stalin ,Hitler , Pol Pot , V Putin , GW Bush , Caesar , ayatollah whatsisname , Saddam , etc.??

He'll fit right in with that lot.

Brown can choose to wrap himself up in the flag, but majority of Scots consider themselve Scottish and not British
Also what is the point in this paper reporting the points on Education, Health and Crime, when they are all devolved to Scotland so Browns speech was irrelevant to Scotland

With Labour leaving Scotlands finances in a complete mess in addition to undeclared and hidden costs on PPP projects. Hopefully Scotland will realise that they need to give Labour a very good kicking at the next General Election

What a silly egotistical foo he is. Wish the idiot would wrap himself up in a Union Jack flag and somehow set himself alight. That would sooo make my decade

I wish AM2 and Despotic Brown would stop trying to force this 'Britishness' thing on us. Its a lost cause and is sooo 19th century

I feel British. Oh so British......British bulldog. British Imperial. British Wars. British weapons of mass destruction. British Diplomacy. British Executive. British fiscal prudence. British history. British Army. British Navy.British money.British food.British.British. British Labour....One party . Ein volk.

Smoke, Mirrors, Mirrors, Smoke, Spin, Spin, Spin, Saatchi, Smoke, Saatchi, Orthodontist work, Spin, Spin, Tony Blair I don't know who you mean. Smoke, Mirrors. the previous government are to blame, saatchi.

Thank you.
applause applause

Cue AM2, blah blah blah, oh yes I do cut paste, smoke mirrors. etc etc tomorrow next day day after that.

How pathetic.

#15. Senga Jean

Shame It's not the Nine O'clock News is no longer with us.

That would make a great sketch - Griff Rhys-Jones in drag as Brown dressed as Britania and Pamela Stephenson as the Queen, doing a duet.

Why on earth would he refer to the isle as Britain? Britain succumbed to the Angle barbarian invasion in the 10th century or so, and was subsequently renamed England or Angleland. Please stop insulting the British by continuing to use their name in vain. You are England and English - like it or not.

AM2 I will assure you that if given the choice of 'Scottish' or 'British' 80% plus of Scots will choose the former, which is only right when you consider that the latter has been trying to eradicate the former for the best part of 300 years.

Most people are indifferent to being British and just adopt it with their Scottish nationality because it is there. Most of them will say they feel European too, doesnt mean they actually care much for Europe.

Anyway if we weren't constantly brainwashed by a media which has vested interests in the status quo among other things (doing its best to run Scotland and Scottishness down), few (barring the 9% of the inhabitants of Scotland who are not Scottish) would feel British.

When GB calls a general election (which I believe will be 2009 at the earliest) the people of Scotland will help Labour keep a majority in government.

Anyway how about they do the right thing and give us that referendum, especially since they are sooo confident everyone feels British!

Walter @20. If they do, i will somehow acquire a thermonuclear device and do us all a favour. I will do this for 2 reasons, firstly being dead is better than 4 more years of Mr Brown and secondly it will be apparent that Scotland will never learn and so must be punished for its own stupidity/put down like a sick dog

Nothing wrong with being British it's just that I have difficulty in working out why anyone should be proud to be British anymore.

A couple of phrases come to mind after reading this article and the comments. Firstly memo to Broon - do the words closing the stable door after the horse has bolted mean anything to you? and secondly to AM2 - do the words farting against thunder mean anything to you? They should cause thats what you are doing!

Brown is much like Salmond. Its always been about them, their egos, not whats best for the country or party. They are both men who almost messianically see themselves as some type of saviors. Both alter their careers in their quest for power. Both are to be feared for they will stop at nothing to promote themselves.

#7. The majority of Scots consider themselves Scottish and British. People who hold extreme parochialist views may think themselves as Scottish and not British.

#22. JayMac

Careful now - the going rate for suicide bombing fantasies on an internet forum is about 15yrs in Broons Britain.

And the Unionazi's think that is far too lenient.

#22 JayMac
Well that is nice to know, if the people of Scotland were to vote in more Labour MPs to the UK parliament than any other party you will happily kill them all.
Did we not just have years of that in NI and is the so called global war on terrorism not for the same reason? one group of people not accepting that another group of people are allowed to have different views so they must not be allowed to exist.

It was a turgid speech, devoid of the emotion Tony used to get us all hooked with.

I was bored and wishing he was finished after 10 minutes. And I got SOOOO fed up with his "solid British people" approach.

Conviction politician? Yeah ... a conviction short of a jail-term!!!

Brown said:

"As we set out on the next stage of our journey this is our vision: Britain leading the global economy - by our skills and creativity, by our enterprise and flexibility, by our investment in transport and infrastructure - a world leader in science; a world leader in financial and business services; a world leader in energy and the environment from nuclear to renewables; a world leader in the creative industries; and yes - modern manufacturing too - drawing on the talents of all to create British jobs for British workers."

His Chancellor said recently that he didn't believe in economic patriotism so I don't see how these two sets of views match up.

Anyway it's all too late. Labour has already allowed most of our industries to be taken over by overseas companies so unless he's going to persuade the City to invest in starting new ones then this is all just a load of hot air.

As to being a world leader in energy including nuclear then perhaps he could explain why he sold off Westinghouse to the Japanese.

Oh the hyprocrisy of it all..

#26 "People who hold extreme parochialist views may think themselves as Scottish and not British."

And equally, those who think themselves British and not Scottish, or indeed any combination of the two, may also be extremely parochial.

Parochialism is a state of mind. It's got nothing to do with identity or constitutional preferences.

Breakfast became "brake-fast" - that pronunciation of the word "breakfast" is very idiomatically Scots.

Perhaps Mr Brown is taking a page out of Harold Wilson's book. Do you remember "I'm backing Britain" It gave everyone a sense of pride. Maybe that is what is needed to shake everyone out of the doldrums. You can all blow raspberries at me now:)

#31
those who see themselves as only Scottish can be parochial, those who see themselves as only British can be parochial, those who see themselves as both cannot be parochial.

When I was much younger I thought of myself as being British.

Now, later in life, I am definitely Scottish and see the 'Brittish' feelings of those younger years mere confusion brought on by simly not knowning any better.

It is the natural state of affairs for like-minded peoples to wish to admister their own destiny. To do likewise is nothing but an abdication of one's birth-right.

The British Isles will not come undone when we are an England (maybe even a fragemented England at that), a Scotland, a Wales, an Ireland (that is a naturally united Ireland), and so on .... it is merely the natural culmination of the evolution of the enforced association made by force of arms that the English Crown managed to 'sell' when it was only the high and mighty that would ever have a say in such things.

Times have definitely changed and while we will no douby have close links, and I hope harmonious and equally beneficial links, with our fellow Islanders - WE MUST move ahead with achieving what is the most natural of states ..... the full and complete management of our own Scottish National affairs.

The world will welcome us when we have the guts to do that - until then, we are nothing more than a province of the English Crown.

So, the cat's out of the bag.

We live in a one party state, and now the pretence that is "parliamentary democracy" is being consigned to the dustbin of history.

You vote Labour, you get Tory.

Same old establishment, different coloured ties.

#35 - "those who see themselves as both [Scottish and British] cannot be parochial".

Yes they can. Simply calling yourself Scottish and British does nothing of itself to broaden your view of the world.

lol, omg, people!! I don't really want to blow us all up, i can accept that others have different views and might for some odd reason want to be British. I detested the IRA and detest Al'Queda, so please dont compare me to them, they promote(d) their cause with blood and tears which is clearly wrong.

I just can't accept the fact that i live in a nation where at the very least a large minority is gagged and the state (and the media) does everything in its power to ensure that they remain a minority, even if it comes to telling BIG fibs/using dirty tactics (i.e. saying we are poor wee subsidy junkies while at the same time producing and with-holding the McCrone report)

To be honest im just fed up of being lied to and fed up of egotistical maniacs (like the entire Labour party) using every dirty trick in the book to ensure that Scotland does not leave the Union (losing them their backyard). Why cant we just have an honest referendum with all of the facts (not Labour spin) to put this issue of Britishness to bed? I and other nats would accept the vote either way, could Brown, AM2 and Royster say the same? Clearly not, which is a pity

What do the Scots say about alexander who actually apologises for Brown,not SNP?There is little to worry about from these english midgeheads now,who want a furheur not a pm.Make no mistake about the brand of national socialism they shovel.It is well Scotland shall soon be Scotland again, and not Hungary or Poland.

#38

Parochial, Narrowly restricted in outlook or scope.
Parochial, Insular attitude towards foreigners.
If you see yourself as Scottish then the English, Welsh and N.Irish are foreigners, if you see yourself as British then any one else is a foreigner except the British.
When you see yourself as both how can the English, Welsh and N.Irish be foreigners.

No 35 @ Walter

You can be seen as parochial whether you view yourself as British & Scottish, British or simply Scottish. The parochial word is just used by Unionists in a rather silly way when it suits them. Would you call an Irishman parochial? How about a Spaniard? If not, why is it then parocial for someone to regard themselves as merely Scottish? That Scottish person will most probably regard themselves as Scottish and European, so they are unlikely to be narrow minded and as inward as you would like to believe.

Also someone who views themselves as Scottish and British could also be called parocial if they happen to be a Euro-sceptic, there are people on the Scotsman boards who fit that description, so why dont you ever use the P word against them?

How about we just not use the stupid P word?

London is the place of parochiality. We've have our scottish cities too. Except Dundee. Us "Arabs" visited France, Vienna, Barcelona while the "old firm" languished, bringing culture, results and football to Greater Europe.

AM2: - You keep repeating this lie again and again. I think you even believe it! Just read the comments on this paper and the Herald; count those for and those against. Perhaps you believe the pro-Labour support are illiterate and therefore cannot comment in this and many other forums. This may be correct but I doubt it.
Do not make the mistake of believing that only SNP supporters are in favour of an Independent Scotland,there are many of us outwith the SNP, including OLD Labour that are strong supporters of Independence. The Labour Party of Hardie and Maxton had home rule as a principle policy; until Labour lost its principles.
Mr Brown has at last confirmed that the primary objective of New Labour is to form a Police State, be sure this will not be lost on the Scots public. I have worked in Single Party (Police) States and can assure you that that way lies madness.

#38

"Parochial, Narrowly restricted in outlook or scope.
Parochial, Insular attitude towards foreigners."

lol, this describes most English people i know

"If you see yourself as Scottish then the English, Welsh and N.Irish are foreigners, if you see yourself as British then any one else is a foreigner except the British.
When you see yourself as both how can the English, Welsh and N.Irish be foreigners."

So to the rest of the world we are parochial, and to us the rest of the world is er... parochial, so either way whether we are British, Scottish or Martian, the word parochial can be used against us. We are different from the English, Welsh, N, Irish as well as the French, Spanish etc. It doesnt meant we will be insular and closed to them, you are beginning to sound like a Labour drone now with the doom and gloom crap. Anyway we live in a globalized world now, you simply cannot afford to be inward looking and insular

"a pledge to deport foreigners caught with guns or drugs..."

Ah. So as long as all they do is rape, rob, or stab people they'll be ok.

Well thank goodness for that.

#39
lol, omg, people!! I don't really want to blow us all up, i can accept that others have different views and might for some odd reason want to be British. I detested the IRA and detest Al'Queda, so please dont compare me to them, they promote(d) their cause with blood and tears which is clearly wrong.

If you do not want to do it why state that you would do it in the first place?.

I and other nats would accept the vote either way,

Would you? so if a referendum was held and the answer was no then that would be it. in 5,10,15,20, 25 or 30 years time there would not be another call for a referendum on independence.
I think not the nationalist know that no matter how many time the people of Scotland say no they will continue to campaign for independence as it only takes one yes vote and then there is no going back.

Walter @ 47

"If you do not want to do it why state that you would do it in the first place?."

Er i said i would acquire a thermonuclear device, that in itself should have made you realise that i was joking. I am clearly no Kim-il-jung or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

"Would you? so if a referendum was held and the answer was no then that would be it. in 5,10,15,20, 25 or 30 years time there would not be another call for a referendum on independence."

I have already said i would accept it, thing is Unionists such as yourselves won't even let us have a single referendum (even though polls show most want one) so it looks like we will never know. However i am of the opinion that if the vote (if one ever happens) is a no to Independence, there should be no new referendum for at least a generation. I can't say that there should never be another referendum as while our genertion would have settled the question, thngs should be left open for the generations that follow. After all our children might become apathetic with the Union and we cant just deny them a choice just because we had one

#45
The SNP got one seat more than Labour, the SNP got about 1/3 of the vote, Labour got about 1/3 of the vote and that left 1/3 of the vote to the other parties.
You do not seem to realise that as well as 1/3 of the people voting for Labour against the SNP there was also 1/3 of the people voted against the SNP who do not support Labour either.
You accuse London of discounting Scotland and you do the very same yourself by discounting any one who did not vote SNP as being labour when 1/3 of them did not.

Walter @49

Are you sure this comment was meant to be directed at post 45 (post 49 doesn't seem to relate to post 45 at all, or am i so tired that i'm beginning to lose it?)

#48
I have already said i would accept it, thing is Unionists such as yourselves won't even let us have a single referendum.

I am all for a referendum, I want this put to bed, I want the Scottish government to put policies forward for the good of Scotland.
If there is a yes vote then so be it but if that vote is no then I want the government to push for what is in Scotland best interest with in the union.
Unfortunately I do not see this government doing that as their agenda is independence.

#50 JayMac
You called me a Labour drone in post 45, I was just pointing out that 1/3 of the vote did not go to either Labour or the SNP.
Any way it is hitting 4am and I am up at 07:30 so good night.

If they didn't get Independence in a fair referendum then i think the SNP would be satisfied so long as we came out of it with substantially increased powers for the Parliament, bordering on Quasi-Independence. After all, it wouldn't be in their interests to try and push something that has been rejected, it would just make them look as spoilt as the current Labour Party and probably lead to a backlash in the 2011 election. I dont think they would be able to push the question again for another 20 or so years. There is also more to the SNP than Independence, they do acltually want to make Scotland a better place, if there is no Independence they will work with what they have to acheive that aim

I wonder what the "British" Mr Brown is going to do about the Queen who is routinely described outside the UK as " The Queen of England" by British Embassy PR releases. Would not look as good being described as the Queen of the UK or the Queen of Britain.

Brown Boy in the ring. La La La Lala
Broon Union Jacks with everything. Na Na Nanana.

One party state? Not a bad idea provided they turf out all ilegal immigrants and asylum seekers and put a ban on Islam. Now thats something worth voting for.

Oh! And the Polotical Correctness and silly Human Rights laws that are erroding our country.

What next? "Confessions of an Economic Mismanager"?

It is amazing how many here, professing to be be Scots, who are without any exercisable talent whatsoever are contact to drag a fellow Scot down to their level. Gordon Brown is successful in ways that those who gleefully criticise him will never be, you have no talent except for spiteful bile, typical parochial Jockos! Peericks.

Not all Fascists look like Adolph Hitler. Decision time: Which country to emigrate to? Although flying the UK coop is the hard part; the mid-flight correction can come later. But at least finding a more democratic country won't be difficult.
“Ship me somewheres east of Suez, where the best is like the worst …”

Yaaaawn.....did someone mention Party?

It would seem that the New Labour Numpty Party, under the benign leadership of Maggie Broon wants to have One Party, One State. That does sound a bit like Ein Volk, Ein Reich. Does Maggie Broon want to emulate Hitler, or Joe Stalin?

We all know that the New Labour Numpties are run by control freaks and totalitarians, and now they seem to have confirmed it to one and all.

And, of course, we had The Mouth of the South down there with them, pledging her allegience to the party whilst bad mouthing her own people for being so terrible as to give the Scottish Branch of the party the boot.

As for AM Squared, he is still continuing to try and propagate the lies about "Britishness". I've got news for you, the sort of statistics you are quoting are pre 1950's. The Majority of Scots consider thermselves Scottish, not British. It is only people like yourself and Royster, and a few other foreigners that posts on this site, who consider themselves "British". I'm surprised that you don't consider yourself Irish, Surely you don't suffer from that much self-loathing?

Incidentally, as to "sons of the manse", Vidkun Quisling was a son of the manse.

whats next 'Brown youth'? or better still Brown's '5 year plan'

bleah bleah or should that be Blair Blair, lets not forget he's been pulling the UK strings and stinging the pockets of the us all for ten years not just 10 minutes AND is part of the reason why the UK (and yes I mean both Scotland and England in this) are in the dire straights that there in now.

He has not been elected, he should not be in power until a general election, simple as that!

time for something new

My God, a One Party State with HIM in control - because of course no-one else is capable - in HIS opinion. He is going to be the Saviour of Britain, with Wendy as his Mini-Me.

DNA Database, ID Cards, and guess what happens if you don't like the one-party state and want to form an opposition party - you're a terrorist!!

NOW WE KNOW WHAT MAGGIE BROWN AND MAGGIE THATCHER WERE DISCUSSING - THEIR SHARED MEGALOMANIAC GOALS.

Maggie Brown indeed. In the eyes of the voters there is no difference between Labour and Tory, now we see he sees that too.

Vote Labour: Lie back and open your legs, or bend over and thing of England - er, sorry Britain.

For the convenience of the population, the Labour Party will issue copies of their "Little Rulebook" so that we all know what it is when you encounter an official who says "My Littler Rulebook says..."

Fo our own sakes, lets get out of this B@st@rd Union.

Head of a one-party state. and what a state - id cards, national dna database, more cctv than any other country in Europe, dissenters getting visits from the riot police....every things in place for the fuhrer

#65,
When was it ever really a union? It's more like the expansionist English annexation of Scottish sovereign territory!

At least in this day and age we don't have the same issues with financially complicit lairds with their hands out for thirty pieces of silver from Westminster!

Still, be on the lookout for Labour and Co!

Heilan laddie - you'll be the sad wee Mutha who stood for the bnp in Aberdeen ?

Maggie Brown and his acolyte Wendy Mini-Me would be well advised to hold an election BEFORE they publish the next Scottish Budget.

It is clear that Mini-Me hopes to rule Scotland vicariously through Westminster, and that there will be "Fun and Games" over the Scottish budget.

Brown is, after all, a unionist! Isn't he? What does anyone expect? I can't wait to see the look on his face when the independence plebiscite is taken, and Scotland's constituency votes for the country's rightful independence, just as you have, to your credit, voted for the SNP!

#30

"Britain leading the global economy - by our skills and creativity..."

Britain will have seen a 40% drop in IT graduates between 2004 and 2009 - that will certainly help...

"by our enterprise and flexibility..."

Quango spending trebled under Nu-Lab - a Transgender Awareness Seminar Facilitator on every street!

"by our investment in transport and infrastructure..."

Edinburgh Council Tax Payers to be transformed from people who have £6000 each to spend on something of their own choosing to people who have invested £6000 each on shiny white buses on rails on the other side of the city...

"a world leader in science..."

If knowing Harry Potter's spell for an invisibility potion counts as science...

"a world leader in financial and business services..."

So there will be a consultancy job in East Lothian for that thieving sh!te John Lindsay after all...

"a world leader in energy and the environment from nuclear to renewables..."

Err... we just sold our nuclear industry to the Japanese, and only a fool would want to be a world leader in an industry that requires 100% subsidy to be viable...

"a world leader in the creative industries..."

We'll certainly achieve that by reclassifying Burger Joints - where the ten-fold increase in pointless media studies graduates will spend their careers - as a 'creative industry'...

"and yes - modern manufacturing too..."

Yes! Yes! Yes!

Being English and not British is definitely parochial (aka Little Englander). Same applies to Scotland. If you can't accept that the English and Scottish are slightly different versions of the same thing (ie a Briton) then your world probably doesn't extend beyond the the local TESCO. In fact a trip to TESCO is probably a once-in-a-lifetime experience for you.

#67. Prior to devolution, the union was always fair. There are more MPs in England than Scotland because more people choose to live there. If more people moved to Scotland from England, then Scotland would have more MPs. I see your from Australia. How about giving back some land to the Aborigines or letting Western Australia secede. Western Australia could go it alone much easier than Scotland.

72 - same applies to being British

73 - the Union was fair cos we had more MPs per head of population than England (wow !) ?

You are a wit !

#2,
"Slightly different?"I wonder if Sir William Wallace would have shared your view; or Robert I? Robert Burns? Or any of hundreds of thousands of Scots who have lived and died for Scotland throughout the ages?

If you had any grasp on bio-genetic, anthropological, archaeological, linguistical, sociological or geno-anthropological fact at all, then you would not make such a flawed aspersion.

Memo to James Kirkup, Ace Reporter, the Hootsman. Dear James, This is just a long-shot but maybe he mentioned 'Britain' or 'British' 74 times because he's the British Prime Minister. I'm thinking out of the box here so please feel free to respond. Royster.

#75 Pilrig. You are being 50% too good to #73.

#59
Well Brillo pad, Gordon has talent - no doubt.
He's certainly got you mesmerised.

But hey, you're no Wendy Alexander.

#76. These guys were just Norman warlords. They were mainly out for themselves and land for their sons - just like the Norman Kings of England during the 100 years war. CF Normans in Sicily, the Crusades. A lot of people on the island of Great Britain suffered because of these toss pots and their equivalents south of the border.

#73,
Well Royster, if it were up to me, I would probably give all of the land back to the aborigines! As for Western Australia, they haven't made a claim for secession since 1898!

Have to say he's impressed me. He is the quality of politician that is severly lacking in the Scottish parliament. If he can marry his big words with big achievements then he may just be a surprisingly successful PM.

#73,
People actually emigrated from Scotland after being forcibly dispossessed of their lands after the dessolution of the clan order - in addition to things like the clearances, poverty, endemic illness and religious persecution.

In reality, it wasn't so much a matter of choice.

#72 I am a Scot first and foremost and then a European. If I wanted to be parochial, I would wish Scotland to remain a nothern province of Britain with no representation in the EU or UN.

A sort of modern-day Brigadoon.

#83. Most of it enforced by other Scots.

#81. There was talk of WA secession during the 1970s - interestingly, it coincided with a commodity and resources boom which is what we are experiencing at the moment.

#85,
"...enforced by other Scots" with the sanction of the Crown and Westminster-based politicians! Of all of the twenty-seven regiments that were present at Culloden, three were Scottish.

There was talk of New England becoming a state in the 1960s, but it never happened. Do I presume correctly that you are in Australia as well?

#72 Just what is parochial about wanting to the very best you can be.

#89. Exactly, Scotland - as part of the UK - is part of the world's 5th largest economy. Together, we can do better and move further up the league table.

Chairman Gordon. Next stop, a cultural revolution.

#88. No I'm not.

I'd like to think his constituents will kick him oot at the next GE, but they're Kircaldyians, thick as mince.
Or are you??

Where is all the money going to come from?

He was like a child with a Christmas wish list, Mr Darling is going to have a major problem trying to sweep this little lot under the carpet..... or is Gordon Brown going to do his usual trick of promising but not delivering.

I note that the way he spoke, the last ten years of tax & squander had apparently not actually happened, and that apparently some big boys must have done it and run away.

I hope that the SNP return a successful candidate for Cowdenbeath at the next Westminster election!

A poll here http://www.citylocal.co.uk/cities/Fife/news/article/7431/ shows that he is not doing too well in Scotland.

#85 With no Scottish goverment to prevent the deportations. The British government even sent in troops to help with the eviction.

I see the So Nasty Party machine is out in force again, the party faithful behind alex who can do no wrong, must be hard being perfect like alex, never uses spin, never preaches to the converted, never uses any opportunity to spout indepedence when the majority voted against it, no different from GB, a politician who wants their own agenda.

Well over 50% of Scots consider themselves as Scottish ,Thats a positve thing not negative!

Honestly anone who is thinking of voting for these criminals need to go and see a shrink first.

I hope he calls for a national election soon but I somehow doubt it, Broon is gona stay the remaining 3 years in which he can do, this man who the voting public never even elected, come to think of it didn't they have lesser numbers than the tories at the last election but somehow swung it.

All very dodgy

I watched his speech. Thought it was rather good. A welcome relief from Tony It's Hip To Be Cool Blair.

I reckon that's what "Britain" needs right now, a steady hand, no bells, no whistles, just canny.

Still not voting for him though. I watch the schism going on in Belgium/Flanders with interest........

Britain/Britishness is so last century.

101

You didn't even exercise your right to vote. With that, you negate the need of an opinion.

Did mention some weeks ago in these forums, that he was a complete control freak
Now he wants a one party state
Im racking my brains for the last person that was a control freak, wanted and had a one party state, was dominated by his father.....sorry that was the 'Boys from Brazil' ;-)

Well all you would be Politicians on here, read about a real political genius.

I'm seriously considering sending Broon a copy of Schedule 5 of the Scotland Act that lists all the reserved issues. education & health are not there- we all know that. Also, British is not the same as being from the UK.

Does Broon have the balls to go for a general election this year? Doubt it somehow. He'll wait until the US has invaded somewhere else so we can forget about Iraq, just like when they invaded Iraq & we all forgot about Afganistan. War criminals to a man.

A united UK under the flag of St. Andrew sounds like a fine idea. Better yet, an independent Scotland would sound better in a land whose constitution is written in pencil, not pen.

Where is all that Scottish Pluck? We Scots, here in the USA, took the land away from the English way back in the Late 177o's. It's time for our Scottish cousins across the pond the step up to the plate.

Thought the conference was so stage managed to the point of vomit enducing
No wonder many true Labour supporters from accross England, Scotland and Wales are fed up
There was complete control on conference agenda, with any possible votes against party being stifled
There was the Scottish Party Leaderein coming out with nauseating drivel (loved the BBC camera shots of some of the conference audience listeneing to her wondering what she was talking about). The Leaderien that was appointed Scottish MSP leader without any opposition.( Also trying to remember if Jack McC gave any speeches in previous years?)
They even had the guy from Glasgow airport, the hero of the hour, John Smeaton there. This I thought smacked of the old american evangilical tent meetings, when they had the cripple child stand up and the all went halllelujah!

#105 Sorry, I don't have any books on fairy stories.

#105 watcher4, East Lothian
You wouldnt happen to be a Labour politician or supporter from East Lothian would you?
Suggest you keep a low profile if you are! Labour and East Lothian somehow equates to corruption and snouts in the trough
No wonder you think Brown is a real political genius

A ‘Brown’ one Party state - so what's new?

With the EU in control what else could it be but 'One Party', with a very much diluted 'Brown' - as temporary manager, almost certainly on a ‘Yes Sir! No Sir! Three bags full Sir! - basis - or else! and becoming a kind of Politicians ‘Responsibility dodging Paradise - with full pay!’ Bring it on - I hear them shout!

Little wonder he wants to squash the idea of a referendum, for, without the EU in control with its dictatorial system requiring the necessity of total control - it will 'fail’ completely, and Mr Brown will stay, as now, just another Politician ‘lost’ and floundering - maybe still leader, maybe not, but only leading a mass of other flounderers.

I feel that Mr Brown will lose his 'hoped for' job for life, and that situation I would suggest, is by far the most important point to our current set of Politicos - all Parties, and even more so to those especially in favour of EU control! (Takes the hassle and decision making out of their work, promoting them all instantly to a kind of Prescott state of ‘convalescent employment’ with massive Salary/ Pension attached!

When the EU takes total charge, Party Politics will become extinct as we know them, for they represent ‘Opposition’ and that’s not a game the EU want to play - they could lose!

No longer will 'National' elections be about Politics, but more of a 'numbers’ game to decide which Party, and its members, keep their 'Office Boy' jobs with their wonderful 'sky high' Salaries 'Pensions' and all the other 'available perks' that go with 'the Job!'

Let’s not forget that a Politicians life, nowadays, pretty much as always, is to spin wonderful stories about what they will promise / might / probably / do when they get the power they seek, and this is about the only qualification they possess - or need to, and which they appear to be very good - nay, excellent at, and even if they get it wrong - no bother, it’s always going to be

What will it take to redeem Scotland from the curse of Bonnie Prince Charlie?

Don't know where am2 gets his figures from but a poll in one of these rags the other day suggested otherwise.
Gordon Brown, son of the manse, quoting the Holy Bible, well, that just makes me boak, this character connived with Bliar to engineer a war of attrition by lying to the British people to say nothing of his conjuring trick at the end of his last budget which will become very apparent, especially to people in the lower income groups who just come into the tax bracket--April 5th.
This man is the consumate polititian and as such can not be trusted, just wait and see!!

#10 AM2
Amazing that when the story broke about Labour having hidden the £ 65 Million PPP debt on Schools projects, there is no sign of AM2. But now feels safe to come out spouting crap

#90 So now we all know the height of your ambition - about knee high to Mini-Me Wendy.

My ambition is greater than yours. Yours is to tie yourself to a union that has failed Scotland by every measurement. Perhaps you swallowed Hurricane Jeck's rubbish about this being the greatest wee country in the world. Sorry to tell you - it's about the worst in Europe.

#116 AM2. Perhaps they should have asked the question "How proud are you to be Scottish". It's all in the question you ask, and how you rig the election, just like 1979.

Lets have a referendum that asks: "Do you want to remain part of the union" and if 66% of the total electorate don't answer "yes", then we become independent. Fair enough for you?

AM2 How do you feel about Mini-Me accusing the Tories of wanting to destroy the union?

Rules

All countries are an artificial constructs. However, nationality is as real as it can get. Just look at the schism going on in Belgium/Flanders right now. Just look to America whereby they have taken in immigrants and continue to do so and they can stay as long as they swear alligiance to America i.e. become American as defined in the constitution.

However, by not voting until you think somebody is worthy, you will be waiting an awfully long time dear chap......

ees face is contorted, his eyes are slits, his mouth has a leer dripping saliva, he dresses like man from the politburo 1960, he has no sense of humour. he is unelected, he uses the name of God, 'e has an ambitious wife and mistress. He lies to his party and they know. He is going to deport everybody who is not British.

He does not like elections or referendums.

Get rid of him before eet is too late.

Gromit & Wendowlene

Adendum

And a sense of identity is very important for a person.

#122 Conspiracy theories? Tut, tut. Perhaps the reason that "nationalist activists" dominate online forums is because there are more of them than there are of you. When, after all, did you read a post coming out in support of the LibDems?

For once he headline in the Scotsman is accurate.
'Brown vision: A one party state.

This is dangerous.

The English political parties are being coerced and manipulated almost willingly into a coalition. by someone who was neither elected at party level or national level. He became leader effectively in a restaurant in Islington, London.

All parties are now right of centre in England. Ther is no effective opposition. This is fertile ground for fascism.

All that is needed is a leader with Charisma. Phew!

Fair points Rules but we cannot use "genetics" as a tool of discussion. Not very fair to those that have taken UK nationality but are of, for example, Bagladeshi origin.

As for religion. Well we all are supposed to believe in the same God, except we have Catholicism, C of E, C of S etc. Then we have the Muslims, Hindus and non belivers.

You touched on a point that we are all immigrants at some point and we contunue to take in immigrants. Therefore we cannot accept "Britishness" as it's a falsoe construct and unconstitutional (i.e. against EU constitution, Human rights and so on).

We cannot define what it is to be British but we have a better stab at defining what it is to be Scottish.

So far he seems to have promised a great deal, but delivery method of his promises is not specified. This means that he will continue to steal our money (Pensions, private finance deals, huge boondoggle computer systems) and then claim everything is getting better when it is merely not getting any worse.

A boring idea, a one party state with no opposition in parliament. Must have been a pretty boring speech as well. And if he says that Britain is a nation, where does that fit in the UKofGB&NI? Britain has not even got a parliament.

brown is only defending English interests!This Britain he speaks of WHERE is it!

They don't elect leaders here either! Is this waht we want for the UK?

The man is dangerous. First the pensions, then Railtrack, then pawning off the country to PFI. Finally dictatorship.

The man is mad.

Yup - I watched Channel 4's Dispatches last night. Hope the Supreme Leader enjoys his fatcat pension.

Why are we having all this comment over Brown's one party state. It has always been a one party state, the capitalist state. Labour Capitalism; Conservative Capitalism;Liberal Democratic Capitalsim and yes Scottish National Capitalism. It is the way of the country. No party is prepared to offer universal healthcare, removal from squalor for more than half of city dwellers, low literacy by western standards, off-shore take over of jobs and low wages and high profits, American Bombers operating from inside our shores and the list goes on and on, we have unemployment and racism and a break down in law and order, all the elements of a master and servant state and oh yes Rule Britania!

He looks like Stalin, thinks like Stalin...

People there is a very simple answer made complicated by people .
Fact, for many centuries Scotland was an Independent and not too unsuccessful nation ,trading with other countries living peacably with all of them bar one aggressive neighbour .

Times changed ,circumstances moved on and a unified island was joined by inter breeding families that ruled the constituent parts of these islands.

Then the money men decided that one parliament was needed and the biggest and at that time richest ( mainly because of Darien blunder)part concluded it should be in the south.
Great times ensued we all benefitted ,the rich got richer we had an Empire that we Scots did very well out of.
Alas last century two wars were fought that although with the aid of allies we won on the battlefield we lost in the financial sense.
The Empire was lost forever and our influence slashed.
Desperate action was required and we signed the Treaty of Rome and joined the then fledgling EU .
That was the pivotal moment that signalled the end of Empire and the only thing that held us together on these islands.
Our very reason for being one was over, once and for all.
It is once again time for drastic action ,and no amount of rearguard rhetoric by British Unionists can halt the inevitable.
The reality is this we would ALL be better off both financially and culturally if we go our separate ways.
The people of the south have different wants and ,aspirations than us in Scotland.
They still hanker after global recognition and power they always did and always will.
We never had such desires of conquest or imposing our will by force of arms.or other means.
We see no need for WMD on our soil.
To see our country evolve and reinvent itself we need self determination not one party rule from the south by crazy corrupt power brokers ( eg Dispatches Programme Ch 4)
History will judge us badly if we do not grasp this opport

@132

How the hell is Brown defending English interests?

Are you aware of the Barnett Formula? Are you aware of the WLQ?

Looks like fleecing England rather than defending it.

We should all get the same funding from government.

Although personally I'm in the home rule camp.

Iraq and Afghanistan were barely mentioned!!!! I wonder why?

The man is a disgrace to the human race nevermind Scotland!!! How can he ignore the biggest single issue of his party's term in government? Billions of pounds spent and hundreds of British servicemen killed or maimed!!!! It's about time Brown and his cohorts were taken to task about their indifference to the thousands of lives they've directly destroyed!!!

It would appear Brown will be even more heartless and ruthless than the murdering criminal Blair!!!

Really liked the tone of the article - the bit that is missing is "Justice" - I'm still waiting for a response to my "instinctive" letter Gordon.

Now if anyone wants to take the wind from his sails, just sit him down and say "Justice and ADR" and Britain!!!

Room 101

Lord Woolf (as he is American);
Professor Richard Susskind OBE (as he is corrupt);
The Lord Chancellor (as he is also an American);
The English Legal System (as it is legally and morally bankrupt).

101

Lord Woolf wants a “regime”, which is liberalisation;
Professor Richard Susskind OBE wants courtroom IT;
The Lord Chancellor wants contemporary, alternative and privatisation;
I want a fair justice system for all, and publically!

101

Discard Rule 26 and alternative dispute resolution;
Discard anything preliminary or ex parte;
Discard Hope of Craighead, Slynn of Hadley and Bingham of Cornhill, as part of the solution;
And we will again have equality and democracy.

101

To hell with my lecturers at Birbeck;
To hell with them again at the LSE;
To hell with the patronage of the EC law course at Kings College;
And now back to reality.

101

The common good ensures discovery by the wise;
And the knowledge is essential for law students;
No rights are derived from compromise;
This is the current issue concerning Jurisprudence.

101

So, in all these political nuances;
The separation of the powers is for a reason;
Do just the best “good” that you can and take no chances;
No person is indispensable, above the law, else it is act of Treason.

101

If you really want to go to heave you will find;
The universe is the sun, moon and stars operating on the spirit;
Entry is internalisation of sense and pure thought previewed by the mind;
With externalised knowledge of how to observe and study nature and th

Room 101 contd

Uniform application of law leads to social order and is the ideology of the Holy Grail;
Right and wrong are opposites and relative only to cause and effect;
The methodological flaw is alternative dispute resolution which is designed to fail;
As the best legal system does not need to abuse human rights, because of judicial discretion, ‘equity’ and intellect.

101

Solicitors, barristers and legal academics comprise a profession, educated and trained to a standard of ability inclusive of ethics;
When processed correctly, case marshalling, legal argument, advocacy and cross-examination ensure “independence of the judiciary”;
With filibustering and contempt being seen as despicable dirty tricks;
Which lead to abomination and aberration, corruption and judicial subjectivity.

101

Justice is done when it is seen to be done;
Via abstract judicial reasoning;
Mind over matter, is substance over form;
With a sprinkling of magical seasoning!

Lesley McDade

I would say I was Scottish if anyone ever asked.I would expect the English to say English,the Welsh to say Welsh and the Irish to say Irish.I have yet to find people who describe themselves as British.
I forgot the Cornish,my apologies Cornwall!

"And that nation, as ever, is Britain, an identity the Prime Minister again made clear he believes must come before and above those of the constituent parts of the United Kingdom."

And by a happy coincidence his career depends on it.

Anyone watch the BBC economic correspondant on the 10 pm news last night ?

With the treasury figures, both for public borrowing and for growth badly off target this Labour Government's plans for the economy are slipping off the rails. As if that was not clear enough, we all had a fine demonstration of the public mood last week when the first run on a Bank in over 140 years occured. Taxes must rise to pay for this.

Beyond that BBC interview ....
The housing market prices now bear little relatinship with the costs of house building. Prices are over inflated and with the rise in interest rates world wide , will only fall.

Meanwhile Public sector Unions are getting restive over pay, flagship Labour policies will have to be cut back, to curb the treasury overspend, and the winter is coming.

The conclusion was clear. If Brown thinks , or even imagines that he has very long in Downing street to put things right he will be soon found "wanting" .

The most telling thing is it was Brown the chancellor that planted the economic seeds that will ensure his own mortality in the top job. If he does not ride his present popularlity in the polls all the way to the ballot box this October, the British Public are in for a real 2 year + experience of the woes of egotistical rule, all the way to the ballot box in May 2009 or even later.

122 AM2

You say "Are you seriously contending that the fact that nationalist activists and supporters make it a point of dominating online forums like these "

Indeed you are the nationalist (British variety) who does exactly that :-)

#144. Yes. But saying you are English or Scottish doesn't mean that you also deny being British which is what the anoraks at the SNP want us to believe.

How times have changed!
Strange to find a Labour Prime Minister so stoutly defending the Union?
However, last year on television, during a debate on alleged Scots dominance at Westminster, Kenneth Baker, a former Minister in Margaret Thatcher's 1980s government, and now the enobled Lord Baker of Dorking, publicly stated that:
"The United Kingdom is an artificial state, and not a
real nation"?!
IF, some senior Tories no longer have any faith in the concept of this unitary state, is it any wonder that the indigenous branch of the party is still treated with such contempt by the Scots Electorate?
Gordon Brown is simply taking advantage of this divisive Tory indifference to Scotland!

Jeez, get that man out of No 10. He thinks he's bloody Stalin. He's already done his mass murdering abroad with his wee pal Tony. How anyone can support this lunatic is beyond belief.

He'll be 'eliminating' his opponents next.

Brown is a big wobbly danger to us all.

#112. Stay off the electric soup.

AM2

You are pathetic and thoroughly anti-Scottish. At every opportunity you get you relish that chance to diminish Scotland in relation to this idtiotic ideal of Britiain you possess. At least Brown has the excuse of trying to protect his dream of going down in history as a British PM, which explains his ludicrous attempts to force the illusion of Britain down our throats.

Pardon me, but saying "somewhat proud" to be British hardly supports your stupid claims that this is an indication that Scots favour Britishness over Scottishness.

On the contrary, it sounds a wholly vague and half-hearted acknowledgement of an over-arching and equally vague sense of Britishness that we're all meant to magically tune into whenever some pollster comes along and asks some dumb question like this.

40% saying "somewhat proud" suggest to me that they are only somewhat proud and not unconditionally proud to be considered British. If you asked these forty percent if they were proud to be Scottish I can assure you there'd be no "somewhat" about it.

That poll shows (if it's to be trusted, which polls like that with stupid questions are not) that only 23% of Scots acknowledged an attachment to Britain that is strong enough to make them feel very proud of being British, which is a pretty meagre amount.

You and Brown and all the rest of unionists non-entities, desperately clinging to this fading anachronism, are patently anti-Scottish in the way you constantly position Scotland as secondary to the greater (false) national entity of Britain. No way of getting out of that one. You are anti-Scottish and, as always, utterly wrong with your deliberately deceptive assessments. Which are, of course, hardly assessments but crackpot opinions that betray a quite ludicrous worship of Britain which I'm afraid doesn't exist in Scotland outside of the confines of your own brain.

#138. You may want to read up on Stalin and then compare him to Gordon Brown. I actually think they are quite different.

I would never vote for a foreigner, he should return to Scotland and NEVER come back to England - That is also true of ALL Scots in England

#125 Rulesbutnotrulers
Interesting fact about Belgium is that less than 1 per cent of married Flemings have married a Walloon (and less than 1 per cent of married Walloons have married a Fleming). I wonder what the percentage is for marriages between Scots and English. I'll bet it is a lot higher than 1 per cent.

Walter #41

"Parochial, Narrowly restricted in outlook or scope.
Parochial, Insular attitude towards foreigners".

Wonderful. But there's a big difference between having a dictionary and being able to use it properly.

"If you see yourself as Scottish then the English, Welsh and N.Irish are foreigners, if you see yourself as British then any one else is a foreigner except the British. When you see yourself as both how can the English, Welsh and N.Irish be foreigners".

Just because I want independence it doesn't mean I see people in England, Wales and NI as being 'foreign'. I see them as individuals, just as I do people from France, Ireland or China. But even if I did see those furth of Scotland as being 'foreign', even by your definition, I'd still need to display an insular attitude before I'd be parochial.

You can be a patriotic little multinational Briton, but still be insular towards all those other people you deem as being 'foreign', or even towards fellow Britons. Trying to define parochialism in terms of one's attitude towards the British state is parochial in itself.

#153. Who are you to judge? Very commissar-like. Typical SNP. Very nasty with built-in chips on the shoulder and in the brain.

Is Brown not aware of the fact that the Church of Scotland is a Scottish not British institution? So much for his background.

There are so many contradictions in this one-nation thing that it's laughable.

Britons, he says. Can he perhaps offer a definition?

The only Britons in Britain are Welsh.

#159

I'm a much better judge than you, that's for sure. You simply wish Scotland didn't exsit. Unluckily for you, it does exist. I'm living proof of that. You're living proof of nothing.

#155 And vice-versa.

I'm Scottish and I'm British - does this make me a traitor?

#160 - the Church of Scotland is obviously Scottish and Brown said his church upbringing gave him his moral compass - he did not say it made him British - that was his choice like 2/3 of Scots who are happy to call themselves Scottish and British...

#62. How did you work that one out? What fantastic thought processes did your mind go through to arrive at such a conclusion?

One party state? The UK already is but what about the Council Tax freeze?

#160. Genetically speaking, the percentage of 'indigenous' males who have 'Y' chromosomes associated with Ancient Britons is about 60% in England and Scotland (there is no difference). In Wales and Ireland, it is about 70-80%.

154 Royster
Gordon Brown has a lot in common with Stalin. They both came from minorities. Stalin was a Georgian who pretended to be a Soviet man. Brown is a Scot who pretends to be a Brit. They both wore odd clothes to show that they are working class. Stalin wore a boiler suit so that he could look like a prole. Brown wore a lounge suit when he gave the Chancellor's speech at the Lord Mayor's Banquet in London. They both have unruly black hair that looks like it is touched up. And they both make long boring speeches.

#165

"I'm Scottish and I'm British - does this make me a traitor?"

No, just confused.

"the Church of Scotland is obviously Scottish and Brown said his church upbringing gave him his moral compass - he did not say it made him British"

His reference to his Church of Scotland upbrining makes a mockery of his one-party state thing or whatever the hell it's meant to be. That's the point. You cannot have a single British nation that cancels out all the consituent nations. The individual nations have national bodies and institutions that exist and are a measure of our difference as nations. The Church of Scotland is one such example among many. Brown himself contradicts his notion of Britishness merely by evoking his particularly Scottish background. This is not something that can be denied. It's a fact. That's why Scotland, England and Wales exist and why they will always exceed the idea of a one-state Britain thing.

Anyway, it's as obvious as wind blowing in your face that Brown is trying desperately to sustain the idea of Britain-as-nation in order to sustain his position of British prime minister. He wants his place in history.

His insistence on conjuring the illusion of Britain is a measure of his desperation to fulfill his personal ambitions which are now seriously threatened by the likely break up of Britain. Little more or less than that.

And it's highly embarrassing, especially because it's partly designed to woo disillusioned Tories. But it will, mark me, go well against the grain of public opinion in Scotland, England and Wales. Scots and Welsh have never identified with Britain in anything other than a superficial "somewhat" way, while the English are now doing same.

#172

But you see, Meths, it doesn't suit AM2's illusionary agenda to refer to a poll like that.

Don't spoil it for him.

# 173

Oh good god man, now god is Scottish and the sole proprietory property of Scotland.

All our Chuch of Scotland godliness being sent down to westiminster, if only we could keep some of our Jesus up here.

LOL, you are bonkers nutty raving stonking bonkers.

God is without borders.

#169. Well I suppose it is possible. I'm just reading that Simon Sebag-Montefiore book on Stalin and it seems that Stalin was a bit of hit with the ladies- even before he became a despot. Wonder what GB looks like with a moustache. Has anyone ever seen that hilarious Australian film 'Children of the Revolution'?

#169. Actually, the resemblance is uncanny if you look at the above picture and imagine a drooping black moustache on GB.

#175

Yes, mel. Whatever you say.

What does it actually mean to be Scottish? Or British?

Why not for once leaving bitter rivalries at the door and try remembering that Scotland sought the Treaty of Union in 1707 and benifited tremedously from it economically. And don't start giving me the "common people's protest" argument either - that was stirred up by the pulpits in the churches because the Scottish clergy were worried (with good reason) that there authority would be usurped by the Anglican church in England. Once the Scottish parliament introduced the Church of Scotland Act (which protected the General Assembly and essentially the autonomy of the Scottish church) the protestors evaporated like water.

And don't give me any William Wallace either. We have so few actual facts about that man that he's almost a fictional character.

Dig into history enough and you'll find that your notion of what it means to be Scottish or even British is virtually based on folk legends, symbolism, and popular talk.
We all live on the same island.

Some of us don't have the choice of returning to Scotland.

I don't know if I'd talk about being proud to be Scottish or British; it depends what you take these labels to mean, or what you want them to refer to. I do, however, consider myself Scottish, British and European and will continue to do so - although with a different meaning - once Scotland is independent. The whole argument about being British strikes me as irrelevant. I can be British and still believe that it is better for Scotland to be independent. I might even argue that it's better for Britain. Isn't that right?

Basically the english dislike us as much as we them. Time to go our own way.

I shall get back to you on this, once I've had a chance to digest all this - watch this space!

#68. Pilrig. Hell no! I dont even live in the UK although I am Scottish but I guess you'll be a sad PC brigade mutha? No? Although it is very amusing reading all these squables over who is Scottish or British or English, who's Nationalist or Unionist. Its the last place on earth I would live.

Some people here are getting themselves into a froth over nothing. These sorts of arguments over Scottish or British really bug me. If anyone asks me where I am from I don't say Scotland or Britain - - usually just "Dundee".

There is a historical resonance with what Brown is trying to do - quite clearly he is harking back to the Wilson era and also trying to woo the one nation Tories. What interests me more though is those issues where there is substance and not just talk and aspiration.

Brown, like Alex Salmond, has impressed me thus far - he seems to be far more on the ball than Blair (or McConnell) was - whether that continues is another matter.

I’ve now decided to delegate this work to one of my top team of avatars, whose views range across the political spectrum – watch this space!

#190

I'm sorry, Not Uni or Nat. But try living abroad and being referred to as English on a week to week basis and I think you'd soon tire of it. Because, no matter what people in Britain might like to think, Britain and England are absolutely synonymous in the eyes of the world. "Scottish" is not recognised as a nationality. Maybe this doesn't matter to you but it does to a lot of people.

I resent very much Brown's attempt to force me to be British/English when this is the one thing in the world I am not.

@187

I can only speak for myself but I'm English and I do not dislike the Scots - I admire the Scots sense of nationhood and only wish the English were more like you in that respect.

I see AM2 is at it again. Fearless leader ie Hen Broon has stated we are British. Since the Act of Union the identity of Scotland has been under attack through fiscal policy and media. In the 19th and 20th centuries attempts to brainwash our students by manipulation of the Education system ie don't teach Scottish history promote Shakespear to hell with Robert Burns, Englsh A levels are worth more than Scottish Highers. There football league is better than ours. There national team is better than ours. What Britishness has done to Scotland is give us a lack of self respect or confidence in our own ability to stand on our own in this world.

#194
Acutally, Bob, I would say what you are saying in reverse.

Do you think the English would compromise their nationality the way that Scots do?

No chance.

The Scots ought to be following England's example. The English sense of nationhood is so strong that they don't need to question it or debate it in the way that we are doing. And they would never give up their sovereignty for no one.

AM2 ...... That survey asks the wrong question. If people were asked practical questions such as;

Are you proud that the UK doesn't have a major car manufacturer any more?

...... Then I think you would get different answers.

This is the most atrocious, misinterpretation of a speech I have read in a long, long time.
You have done your newspaper a great disservice and it has obviously been tainted by some of the bigotted, narrowminded views regularly expressed in the comments boxes.

I think it is indicative of the sad decline in media standards in this country. I expect informed, fair analysis in quality newspapers. This is far from the case in this article.

BROWN! We dont want to be part of your totalitarian British state. We are Scottish and proud we are to be. On the constitution........ We want the people to make the big decisions which will shape their future, that means a Republic for the Scottish people. I am not anti- English but pro- Scottish. Phoblacht na Alba go bragh!

#183

AM2

My words state a position. Your words just repeat the same deceptions day after day after day after day. And you even repeat the same posts on a constant basis. You are not capable of debate.

My words state a position and you are incapable of resoponding to them.

Saying "your words condemn you" and other such platitudes doesn't wash. You might have noticed that most other posters agree with me. You are in the minority. You are in a league of banality of your own.

M2, Glasgow / 12:51am 25 Sep 2007

#8 Edward

Do you mean “hidden” in the sense of “completely public knowledge”?!

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Government/Finance/1823...

No he does not. He is talking about the irresponsible Financial mismanagement of the last lab-Lib administration which is now coming to light because a new administration is not going to sweep this mess under the carpet which the last administration would have done if they had won.

Believe me it is a mess, The PPP/PFI debacle has left a crippling bill of nearly £5,000 for every Man, Woman and child to pay back to fatcat financiers and banks over the next 25-30 years. If I had my way, every member of the last administration would be made to pay this bill out of their own pockets. But then again the popular Labour mantra is "But hey! It's only taxpayers money anyway, lets squander it!"

'S mise le meas
Niall.

184#. The English have done a very good job on you. Well done to your English masters.

196. Disagree strongly.

The English identity ends at sport. There is virtually no political identity - apart from the English Democrats.

Did you hear of the Abigail Howarth case? Denied a training position because she was white English? White Scot, white welsh, white Irish and any origin under the sun except English would have been fine.

The English are at the bottom of the "UK" pile - financially, democratically and culturally.

Forgive the wandering off topic there but I am incandescent with rage - whilst most of my countrymen seem to be completely oblivious to what is happening.

Never ruin an apology with an excuse. ~Kimberly Johnson

#201

This has been a party political broadcast from Benthehoose.

The world is flat! The world is flat, time to stop this spherical nonsense, the world if flat!

If your argument is against education and health, then a westminster government could change that policy as well.

You place an irrational connection between independence and policy. We could feasably be independent and oppressed, look at Zimbabwe. Independence didn't solve that problem.

Policy does not have borders.

Dear English Boab , let me put it this way, the majority of your fellow countrymen would be happier without us. nothing personal.

#157 Scothighland

Thank you. The thought of any sort of union between Windy and that old bawbag Foulkes has quite put me off my elevenses.

I consider myself Scottish, British is a geographical term really, it says nothing about my culture or history personally.
I support independence, but I still think Scotland and England share some common cultural bonds, and I certainly dont feel any animosity towards the English. Few people do, even among nationalists, most of whom will have friends and relatives from south of the border. It serves unionists to portray SNP supporters as anti-English, but it's just garbage, and we all know it.

The act of Union was not "sought" by Scots, they were blackmailed into it.. I thought everyone knew that! The loss of hard fought independence after centuries of bitter bloody conflict, did not go down well. Roslyn 184, are you sure it's a library your in, and not a padded cell?

#193 That would still be a problem even if Scotland and England were independent of each other.

The reality is that many abroad (and here) are ignorant of other nations - they hear an accent and assume someone is a particular nationality.

Ukrainians get confused for Russians; Slovaks for Czechs; Canadians for Americans; New Zealanders for Australians. If you are from an African country it is worse - you get labelled with the whole damn continent instead of your country. And don't even try explaining to one of these ignoramuses that you are Northern Irish!

Ignorance is I am afraid a universal problem and has nothing to do with us being independent or not.

Most of the times abroad I have been confused for being German, Dutch or Scandanavian - rarely English. When I do and I say I am Scottish I have never yet had a blank look - standard reply is usually "Ahh William Wallace, Celtic, Rangers . . . etc".

It seems to me that some here are so insecure and so het up about their nationality that they are looking for an insult where none exists.

Read the artical and thought of this :- http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/deadkennedys/californiaube...

So he's draping himself in the union jack, and the bible! All that's missing is the shield, helmet and trident. You could be forgiven for forgetting that he's a leader of a country waging an aggressive war. I wonder what his Father would have made of that fact. Single party state? Maybe at next years conference, they'll all be wearing Brown shirts! Barely a mention of our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq, or the million plus civilian casualties. Trying to identify himself with the spirit of John Smeaton. Disgraceful plagiarism. The side issue "Scottish Report" saw Mouth O' the South apologising to the rest of the Brown shirts for the behaviour of the Scottish people, expressing their democratic will.
How long, how long. How long are we going to put up with this crap!

191 - AM2

I thought I could smell stale, rotting troll mince, and here, I follow the silvery trail of slimy racist diversion to 191 and there you are.

Is pathological boredom your weapon of choice now, having failed spectacularly to muster any logic in support of your Scotland "too poor, too stupid, too small" mantra?

Surely, even a bottom scraper of such abysal and murky depths as yourself must have a wee shred of shame about re-pasting the same poll? - I reckon this is now 21 times for your Glasgow Uni study, each time twisted and used for smear. The SNP is a democratic, civic, anti-racist and progressive party with Scotland, and ALL her peoples best interests at heart. Every time you try a smear to suggest otherwise you cheapen debate and reveal yourself as incapabable of logical engagement on real issues.

I fear your constant muck racking and diversionary trolling has caused you some kind of permanent damage and left you bereft of any sense of truth. Slither off now please.

"#206. Benthehoose / 11:10am 25 Sep 2007 Hello Winged one,

Why would you even bother to explain your thoughts to a professional Troll for the Hootsman. He is from Armaghhhhhh"

Your own spelling betrays your bigotry and prejudices - stereotyping again?

#205

What I mean, Bob, is that the English don't *need* a strong identity because their nationhood is not under threat. Or maybe you feel it is, but I wouldn't think so. Everyone knows where England is, who the English are. There's no need for the English to broadcast their Englishness because England is already known and renowned as a strong national entity.

I also feel you're perhaps judging England/the English in relation to what you see of the Scots and Welsh, where maybe it seems the English don't demonstrate the same passion for their country.

However, the seeming passion demonstrated by Scots and Welsh is really only by those who are desperate to assert their nationality in the face of its absorption into the British Isles which, in real terms, translates into their absorption into England.

Abroad, the English are regarded as being very passionate about their nationality in a way that the English themselves are perhaps unaware of. I would say that a seeming lack of English identity is probably the measure of a country at ease with itself. It's a country that doesn't have to fight to assert one.

I would like to see the same thing in Scotland.

220 - AM2

research done in 2007 amongst Scotsman readers has identified AM2 as the most ball-achingly boring and repetitive poster. 98% of readers said they would rather stick a red hot knittling needle in their eye than be subjected to a 22nd re-pasting of his same poll. AM2, in response to our finding, re-pasted for the 11th time a survey from 1295 which showed anti-English sentiment among Scots.

All these percentages get a bit boring and prove nothing. In 1954 a passenger cargo ship left the Tail of the Bank for Australia with some Scottish families seeking a new life there. A census taken by the medical officer on board showed that 50% of the male emigrants turned out to be alcoholic! Funny thing was there were only two male emigrants on board! So much for percentages!

A One party state? At last the UK is beginning to take the fine example from upstanding nations and politicians like Robert Mugabe. Way to go Broonie!

#217 This constant pish that AM2 is a troll is doing my head in - a dictionary definition for those that keep (mis)using the word:

"An electronic mail message, Usenet posting or other (electronic) communication which is intentionally incorrect, but not overtly controversial (compare flame bait), or the act of sending such a message. Trolling aims to elicit an emotional reaction from those with a hair-trigger on the reply key. A really subtle troll makes some people lose their minds."

You can accuse AM2 of a lot of things but I doubt you can say that he deliberately posts information that is incorrect. If anything what winds you up is that he stands his corner - one could say the same of others here of the opposite viewpoint.

There is absolutely no reason to resort to this sort of crap - I might disagree with people here but on the whole I do it without resorting to abuse - and if I do I do apologise if I have got the wrong end of the thread.

Let's act like grown-ups and debate the issues without insults - ignore the real trolls when they do appear.

205. Totally agree, it's time too put England first!

#214

No, you're wrong. Once, we would have thought of a Lithuanian or Ukranian as being Russian when they were part of the USSR. But not now. We know who they are. Everyone does.

The case is different with Scotland. I think you miss my meaning. It's not that I get mistaken for being English because of my accent or anything, which indeed has led to people thinking I'm German, Dutch or Scandanavian more than English.

It's when people KNOW I'm Scottish, when I've even explained it to them, and they will continue to refer to me as being English because, in their minds, England and Britain are one and the same thing and, more to the point, for them Scotland is a part of England.

So, OK, you think complaining about this highlights some kind of insecurity. Maybe it does. Then I would ask, where does this insecurity come from? The answer is that it comes from a real state of affairs where I'm not recognised for what I actually am.

But it is more than insecurity. It is also humiliating and demoralising to be identified and labelled as something you are not. I have even been described as English on official documents because the computer systems in certain countries did not recognise British citizenship, only English. Never mind the fact that English citizenship doesn't exist.

You might be happy with that. But, as I say, many more are not. And they shouldn't be. Surely everyone has the right to be recognised for who and what they are.

And, really, an independent Scotland would go a very long way to rectifying the matter, just as it has for Latvians or Ukranians who are, I can assure you because I've seen it, are known exactly for being Latvian or Ukranian.

And this is not the fault of the ignorance of other people. This is very much a result of the way that Britain has been projected in historical terms as being very much the same thing as England.

226 AM2

I imagine there will be a lengthy queue at the box-office - has anyone ever managed to sit all the way through one of your squalid pantomimes?

230 NAUON

a regard the smear of racism as abuse. Until AM2 desists from this bargain basement cheap tactic, and respects the integrity of other posters re opposition to racism, he will get little respect.

I posted this on the Wendy article but it is relevent here to, especially if you ignore the Scotsmans usual dubious spin on events:

There have been many Scots PMs and UK ministers. An English or Scots PM still needs to cater for a London centric UK and a largely and increasingly anglo electorate. This is not anglophobic just reality. Gordys britishness is a necessity if he wants the Southern votes. The UK is so London centric Scotland and other 'regions' play second fiddle, and always will. Scots have just as much chance of individual success but it means following a London centric vision at the price of hurting Scotlands overall economy.

Scots unionists are happy that Scots can get a voice in how London governs its own interests. Its all the same to me, Scotland is still marginalised. I would rather an English PM in Scotland serving Scottish interests than a Scottish PM in London UK serving the South.

=========================
Scotland no longer needs a London centric union and 'British' or not is incidental the Northern English are just as marginalised. Scotland needs to be able to make its own decisions for its own needs. The current devolved state is that Scotland can decide in some aspects of health, education law etc but all the rest is channelled to the South. Gordy forgets that 80% of Scots are now convinced that that just isnt good enough.

A decison in the past to go to some kind of federal UK might have saved the union. As this did not happen the end of the Union is certain, even if we collectively felt part British it meakes no difference because we now realise that we need control over our own affairs

winged one. sorry matey,scotland has NEVER been regarded as part of England,nor would we want it too be!!

238 AM2

thanks for that, a sum equal to Scotlands share of her oil wealth

#233

The point is that these polls point to a fact that all your gibberish can't deny, which is that Scots feel themselves to be Scottish first. End. Of. Story.

74% do not put outright or greater value in Britain as being representative of their nationality. Of those, 24% see Britain and Scotland as equally representative of their nationality. And well they should, given that this is how it's meant to be. It's just that, interestingly, the rest of Scotland doesn't agree.

So, one thing we can safely say is that this poll demonstrates a lack of identification with Britain as representative of the Scottish national identity overall.

The figures from 2000 to 2007 would also suggest an increase in people coming to live in Scotland from other parts of the UK which has occured in recent years, particularly in Edinburgh and the Highlands. They would probably tend to identify with Britain in a way that indeigenous Scots do not.

The funny thing about all this is that, according to the law, the nationality of Scots is British. Most Scots reject that notion to varying degrees even while the are constrained to accept it.

240 Mona

why not?

The people of Kirkaldy are going to kick brown in his union jack underpant’s at the next election and make him squeal in his fancy new accent! If he thinks that there is such a thing as “Britain” anymore and has fallen so in love with it, then perhaps its time for Alex to create his own army – just 2 stand up for our interests, you understand! Its time! If health really is brown’s priority, then hed better watch his own back at the next election – scottish health is nothing to do with him anymore anyway! Shout it across Kirkaldy – its time!

I swear if Gordon Brown says "Britain" one more time I'll weep.....

239 - quite funny. and there was me thinking you were totally humourless

AM2

Do you agree, according to your poll figures, that only 15% of people in Scotland consider themselves as exclusively British by nationality?

247 - The BBC counted 71 'Britains' or 'Britishs' in his speech. 1 'Scotland' - in relation to the airport attack

#170 AM2 / #155 Rob7, England
AM2 meet # 155 Rob7, England
#155 Rob7, England meet #170 AM2
Enjoy each other!

RE - shared language, religion etc. There are many languages spoken in Britain - English is certainly the most widely spoken, but let's not forget Gaelic, Scots, Welsh, Cornish etc. Never mind Urdu and Polish...

Shared relgious heretige? Ever heard of the Covenenters? Our religious heretage can't be that similar if we have seperate national churches, never mind different stages of reformation.

AM2 & AyrshireScot - are you two married to each other by any chance?

You sound like an old couple (or maybe odd couple?).

AM2 and Mona still banging their drums i see

246. The Second Coming

His new accent?

Blimey, I know he'd had his teeth done but still.....

251. AyrshireScot

I know! It's like - enough already! The more he goes on about it, the more uncomfortable I feel.

Seriously!

254 - LOL. That made me chuckle. Perhaps more offensive to AM2 though...

254 - I could do better....

AM2 #10
See you are still cutting and pasting, without doing your homework.

Just had a look at the PPP/PFI list for schools shows the cost for WDC at £100mill this figure now stands at £500mil, the figures given by the Scottish Civil Service are the 'Initial' Budgeted figures i.e. that amount agreed by the relevant LG Committee and the Scottish Executive, but does not include the actual costs of the complete project. viz-a-viz extra running costs, and the fact that the properties after the end of the contract do not remain within public control, but revert to the consortium that built it.
Sorry me old Cocker but that to me is hidden costs and surprise I can't find it anywhere in Labourdom.
Thank the heavens that we have now got responsible people at the helm in both Scotland and WDC.
BOT
Maggie Broon is now showing his true colours, if anyone ever had any doubt that the man was a power drunk dictator they need now look no further for the proof after yesterdays speech.

The man is in the same mould as Blair but is using smoke and mirrors to con the English, and the Irish Unionists.

Bring it on Broonie we'll make Scotland a Torie free zone forever!!

.

245.Because niether scotland nor england want it too be, lets just have our separate cultures in a united kingdom!

255,Hoops. Not so much banging, more having a damn good rant!!

It looks like the beginnings of a dictatorship.

And he is my MP for god's sake.

I won't be voting for him at the next election that is for sure!

The sooner we get independence the better.

261 Mona "separate" and "united"? I see

264 Mona - having a "damn good rant!!"
- well, one out of three ain't bad.

262 AM2

so what. Only a referendum can resolve and give a valid conclusion on the peoples' wishes. Repeat after me:

I support the right of the Scottish people to choose...

187 Royster
Hello Royster. If you are still here I've just thought of something else. Gordon Brown is very much the son of the manse. Didn't Stalin attend a seminary?

brown. ersehole.

Just enjoying the report in La Repubblica about the two kidnapped Italian troops being liberated through an operation which involved English troops (inglese = English).

http://www.repubblica.it/2007/09/sezioni/esteri/afghanist...

In this news report, the British soldiers are referred to as British 3 times and English 6 times. There is no perceived difference. This is typical of foreign news coverage of Britain/England. And these journalists are not ignorant but well educated people.

Anyone who tells me that Britain and England are not viewed across the world as one and the same thing can go to hell.

268 - WInged Messenger was absolutely correct at 232 and 153 - the legal definition of "British" nationality which forces me to have that on my passport and to select this as an option on some official documents no doubt confuses the issue and leads to under-statement of Scottish identity in these polls. Even your own polls show a majority of Scots identifying more strongly as Scottish vs British - is this not worth pondering for you and yours who keep trumpeting the unity and cultural identity of the UK? Clearly your 'Great Brittania' unity is not catching on as you would like.

If Scottish identity is not strong, why do the London parties even feel the need to preface their Scottish sub-branches with the descriptor "Scottish". If the UK was so robust, strong and all benefits flowing to Scotland from it, why do the London parties not simply have the honesty to stand as Labour/ Conservative etc?

267. Stop being so condescending, we can have separate cultures in a united kingdom, as the saying goes "we are the same but differant".

274

Fair enough Ayrshire, but what about the Council Tax freeze?

#268

In other words, Scots consider themselves Scottish first and that's it.

#270 AM2

Your quirky humour isnt in the right place for being a scot then

#264 Mona

As you do :-D

#276

Anither troll.....by god we need border control on this forum

Lots of posts on opinion polls about identity. It rarely matters what opinion polls show, because they seldom translate into public policy. If you had poll on whether people believed in flying saucers you'd probably find a substantial percentage do including some who claim to have seen one and one or two who claim to have been in one. If you had a poll on capital punishment you'd probably get a majority for the death penalty. But neither ET nor the handman is coming back.

Great, a Bible-bashing dictator. A new Franco?

275 - Mona

I wish Unionists would agree. AM2 tells us our cultures our now inseperable, now you are telling us they are quite different?

273. while we are going too hell,please tell me, if the foriegn journo's call England Britain is that our fault, think they need too be educated more!

#280 Pubeless fae London

"But neither ET nor the handman is coming back."

Who is the Handman??? and i regret to inform you ET has come back in the form The Mouth Of The South Wendy Alexander.......she has to be an alien!!

282. what do you think? do you think scotlands culture is the same as englands! i doubt it, but that does not mean we can't still be united!

283 AM2

LOL - ah, so you support the right of the Scottish people to choose, as long as there in no choice and no mechanism to choose directly and democratically. Time for your nap.

286 AM2

so what. Estonia shared alot of culture with the USSR when it was subsumed by it. We share culture with Ireland. So what? This has nothing to do with what the best form of government is to help our economy, or give us the power to expel nuclear WMD from our land, or represent ourselves. England and France are more similar than England and Malaysia - it doesn't make an argument for letting one run the other.

286 and 287 - can the Unionists not have a huddle and agree a common line?

291,AM2. same here, when I've said I'm from Teesside the reply has been; oh,thats in the north of scotland, we all have the same stupidity too deal with!

AM2

You phoney buffoon. Even the SNP victory has done wonders for enhancing Scotland's profile as a nation abroad.

It's not enough. Only full independence will restore the full recognition.

You call it an irriation which is as much as to say you couldn't care less. It is a violation of human rights, not just an irritation.

This is a measure of how much you value Scotland, which is to say that you don't.

A good quote for the article pic with Gordon Brown and his wife......

"...and there you have my dear!! My creation in all its glory. See how my smoke and mirrors has deluded them harhahahahahaha!!!"

292. We have a commen line, all I'm saying is you do not, never in a month of sundays would you agree that scotland and england have a commen culture!

He is only thinking about ENGLAND. Scotland should look forward to independence.

Mona....what would you say our common culture was......excluding the events in the Christian Calendar?

286 AM2
in the evolution of humanity great civilisations and empires have come and gone. The continued existence of nations and their cultures is not permanent, especially where the system of government acts to weaken that national identity and culture of a smaller nation in a union with a larger. It is hardly surprising that Scotland and England's cultures have converged somewhat - being locked in a union with a country 10x bigger, is as Paul Scott described it in his book, like "being in bed with an elephant" - the larger neighbour may have no animus against the smaller, but it can weaken culture and identity.
Of course, the UK, through historical deliberate repression of Scottish culture has done this in the past on purpose. Today its just a fact that cultures will converge somewhat - just at the UK is influenced by USA culture. George Rosie, in his thesis "The Englishing of Scotland" pointed to erosion of Scottish culture by the fact that the majority of Scottish cultural institutions were headed by English people. I see nothing malicious in this, it is just a fact of cultural convergence caused by our governmental situation. I myself think that there are elements of Scottish culture, languages, history which need to be better cherished, and independence will help - it is not my primary reason for wanting independence for my country.

304 - Plus the solidarity and SSP and Margo votes - over 42% voted for independence parties - more than elected the Labour government or previous Tory governments of the UK.

#306

Exactly. But these are realities, AS. AM2 doesn't confront realities. He just pretends.

291 - AM2

were you ever confused with someone capable of logical thought and honest argument?

A British one party state - sounds lovely! A Brit dictatorship, isn't that what we've always wanted? Er...

The more Brown trumpets his love for Britain the more Scots will flush his party down the toilet of history.

"298. AM2, Glasgow / 1:01pm 25 Sep 2007 #295 Winged Messenger

As I said, you are incapable of objectivity. Bye for now. :-)"

Oh, the irony.

#290 Methalions
Isnt crime devolved as well? that is fighting crime not crime itself!
Comes under the devolved Justice department
'The administration of criminal justice and civil law, operation of the courts, provision of legal aid and liaison with the legal profession.
Also the operation of the police and fire services and an overview of preparations for potential civil emergencies

314 Joe M

Could you change your name to Joe S? The Illiberal Democrats need a figurehead leader, and you you could be just the man. If you could also grow a full moustach, that would be great!

Cheers

#301 "He is only thinking about ENGLAND. Scotland should look forward to independence."

Tosh. He's only thinking about Labour.

England is just a cash cow to milked.

But you're right - Scotland should look forward to Independence so should England. I live for the day.

You can't blame the English for son of the manse Brown - none of us have voted for him.

320 - AM2

bye for now : that was a lie to cheer us up, only to have lulled us into a false sense of security from your sophistry, out your wee box you jump.

The point Winged Messenger was making was that a very large % of Scots voters backed Independence parties c. 40% - a large proportion of voters you seem to want to discount, minimise and patronise. You accept 40% is good enough to elect a UK government, but the sneer at this very large vote for independence.

#319 Methalions
Thought that - lol
So all in all, Brown's speech was not all that relevant to Scotland, a bit like Brown really

#321 English Bob
You can have him though!
An Independent Scotland will not want the likes of Gordon Brown and his bunch of New Labour freinds involved with Scotland

301

"Scotland should look forward to Independence so should England."

- I will buy a one way plane ticket out.

As will most of the people who pay most of the taxes in this country.

The same people who can afford to leave when it goes t~ts up.

I salute your naivety.

#291 AM2, of course independence would change it.
You could then, at least legitimately, add England/Scotland to the list you already named.
But at present the only country that does not officially exist within that list is "ENGLAND" as (it no longer officially exists as a country and enjoys NO separate political status within the United Kingdom). "Ecyclopaedia Britannica".

325 AM2

ah I see, so you are not dismissing and patronising 40% of voters, merely 38.6% of voters. Well that changes things.

303,Hoops. The pub!!

#330.....oh wow!!

I thought Brown's speech was superb - but what's all this about it being, "in studied contrast with the soaring oratory and intellectual flights of Tony Blair"? You what? Blair might have gone to Oxford, but he was no intellectual. Brown, on the other hand, is a serious big-brain.

Had Brown gone to Fettes, he'd have gone to Oxbridge and the press would laud him for doing so. Instead, he went to a comp. then on to his local University, as so many in Scotland have done. It doesn't mean he's stupid, it just proves he is not a sheep like Blair.

Anyone care to explain why these threads always seem to turn into a load of anti-scottish tosh, mostly circulated by this AM2 guy? I'm all for Labour and the Union, but this guy is seriously having a laugh with you all!!! Yankin' yer chains.

#268 - AM2

I like your thinking, let's take it to the logical conclusion
'The people who said they weren't Scottish will have been mainly English, Welsh and N.Irish. So "British not Scottish" is just a statement of fact; they're not Scottish'

OK then let's discount them from the poll so we can get at what the probable Scots answered, the numbers now become:

British not Scottish: 10% ––> 0%
More British than Scottish: 5% ––> 5.6%
Equally British and Scottish: 24% ––> 26.7%
More Scottish than British: 26% ––> 28.9%
Scottish not British: 24% ––> 26.7%

But wait - these numbers don't add up to 100% - it seems we have 12.2% of people who don't know. I know they're probably Polish or French or something, let's discount them too, now our numbers become:

More British than Scottish: 5.6% ––> 6.4%
Equally British and Scottish: 26.7% ––> 30.4%
More Scottish than British: 28.9% ––> 32.9%
Scottish not British: 26.7% ––> 30.4%

You said - 'but only quite a small minority think of being Scottish as somehow incompatible with being British' - 30% is not small minority, 6.4% is.

Aren't statistics great.

"#282. AyrshireScot / 12:44pm 25 Sep 2007 275 - Mona

I wish Unionists would agree. AM2 tells us our cultures our now inseperable, now you are telling us they are quite different?"

A religious parallel might be helpful here. Think of the Holy Trinity and you might see how both Mona and AM2 could both be right.

Labours new catch phrase its NEVER MIND THE PAST WE ARE A FORWARD LOOKING PARTY,dismiss anything before today, they don't what to be accountable for the last 10 years this is the man who raided the pensions costing pensioners thousands of pounds forceing some back to work,as for tax concesions for soldiers serving in Iraq and Afganistan most won't qualify as for new accommidation this was promised 8 years ago and was never implemented.MORE LABOUR SPIN

The good thing about Broon's speech, is that it shows just how nervous he is about his Westminster gravy train getting booted into touch!!!

It's maybe the last breath of the British state.....I certainly hope so!!!

Here's a hint if AM2 posts something contentious in the first five posts of a new thread, particularly in the silly wee hours of the morning, it's an attempt to derail the bigger issue. Do not take his bait, feed not the troll.

331, Hoops. stop it, we all know that scotland and england share a history together so are bound too have cultural similarities.

I must apologise to all of you who are wondering what has happened to the crazy cult that is the Antifascist today – my cyber rottweiler had a bit of a heavy weekend, but revived when I threatened to pour the contents of a can of devolution max over him and has now promised that he will contribute to the Wendy thread within the next half hour or so. He asked me to tell you all that he is sorry that I was forced to call on one of my nationalist avatars to fill in for him on this board– he just hates it when I inflict pro TT “venomous and bigoted garbage” (the Antifascist’s words, not mine!) on innocent visitors to the Scotsman site!

"308. Methalions / 1:09pm 25 Sep 2007 ...well 5 votes so far and we're at:-

Scottish not British 80%
Equally Scottish & British 20%"

I am a Dundonian - include that and that makes it 16.66% Dundonians in your poll . . .

. . . aye - you're right Methalions - these polls are meaningless . . .

:D

#341 Mona

So why cant you distinguish any??? i certainly cant...well apart from the pub

#325 You also forgot to mention AM2 that not everyone who voted for independence parties supports independence.

Equally not everyone who voted for unionist parties supports the status quo.

The only poll that matters is one where people actually vote on independence.

That's why I want a referendum on the issue to settle the matter one way or other for some time to come.

What a sad deluded old git GB is..."Big Brown is watching you!" Even Sarkozy wouldn't come out with a statement like that!

Be afraid, be very afraid...the man with the crumpled suits who picks his nose in public wants to go " on and on...

344,Hoops. We must have, music,comedy,the arts, hell even politics!

Soundbites and lies are all that broon and his party can offer.
We have heard it all before.One party state, aye
yer party is one fecken hell of a state broon.

308 Methalions- I'm equally British and British!

Hope that doesnt mess up the poll.

"#349. mr chips / 2:36pm 25 Sep 2007 Soundbites and lies are all that broon and his party can offer."

Call me an old cynic but you could replace "broon" with Salmond or Cameron and that could be equally true. . .

well id exclude comedy from that list Mona....Scots have a different sense of humour

#244. Just because you see yourself as Scottish or English first doesn't mean you want to see an end to the British state. The British state is in both the interests of England and Scotland and, whether we like it or not, England and Scotland were just Norman states on the island of Great Britain. Culturally we are English or Scottish or both; however we are all from this island and most people don't wish to see an international border carving it up. I'm proud to be British but I do not want the UK to leave the EU.

352,Hoops. Not in the north-east of England you don't, Billy connelly is a big here!

Would this be cheaper than the trams?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7011932.stm

Also, stop having a go at London all the time. It's a great international city which is a credit and a huge benefit to the people who live in the UK. The streets are not paved with gold and if you want to live in your own house and raise kids there it's almost impossible on a normal salary. It happens to be where the action is.

"#352. Magic Hoops 2, Fife, Scotland / 2:40pm 25 Sep 2007 well id exclude comedy from that list Mona....Scots have a different sense of humour"

I find myself disagreeing - I don't believe there is a homogeneous Scottish or English sense of humour.

Humour is often regional - what might be funny in say the North-East of Scotland is often quite different from what goes down well in Glasgow. Equally, in England the humour in the English regions varies from place to place and is often based on dialect and local nuances.

If broon thinks parading john smeaton in front of this shower of numpties will gain him votes it just shows how desperate nu labour really are.

Stay away from politics smeato, yer makin yerself look a right erse.

#354 Former comedian Billy Connolly is probably bigger in the North East than he is here. He was funny thirty years ago...

353,Royster. I'm proud to be British too, but England needs the same political status as Scotland, hence the English Democrates.

359. what about peter kay, he did an excellent version of the proclaimers hit!

What is it to be "British"?

#353

"and, whether we like it or not, England and Scotland were just Norman states on the island of Great Britain."

Eh?

Sorry Royster, but if this is the extent of your grasp of Scottish and English history, then I suggest you attend night classes.

Culturally, the Scots are distinct from the English, and vice versa, and always have been. This is beyond dispute. The fact that Scotland and England exist as distinct nations proves this.

I really wish unionists would stop trying to argue false positions as regards Scottish/English culture/nationhood.

It is a denial of something that cannot be denied. Scotland and England exist as different nations. End of story. Whether they are capable of forming a union or not is besides the point. If they didn;t exist as separate nations we wouldn't even be talking about the union.

362. He has the same right as any other BRITISH citizen, please remember we are all still british!

Off topic slightly, how old do you have too be too ride a 50cc scooter?

#365 Speak for yourself. I am NOT British, I never have been, and I never will be.

#353 Actually culturally many of us or not "English or Scottish or both" as you put it but a mixture of a whole range of national influences and backgrounds. When researching my family tree - just a hundred years nack - I found ancestors who were Irish, Scots, Norwegian, Romany, French and Jewish. If I'd went further back I would have been able to add to others.

It's one reason why I am not a great supporter of nations and nation states - the reality is I have more in common with people in other countries than not.

One could say I am great believer in "We're a' Jack Tamson's bairns" or Burns' "A Man's A Man for A' That".

It is rather ironic that a common egalitarian sentiment of Scottish national identity is also one that recognises that we are all members of the human race.

365, guga. sorry your passport says you are,like it or not!!

369

Fair point Winged but what about the Council Tax freeze?

370. What if the vote is NO.

#371 I am forced to have "British" pasport because Scotland is still treated like a colony by the English. That does not, however, mean that I am anything other than Scottish. I look forward to Scotland being independent as I can then have a passport which shows my true nationality; not my colonial "identity".

#369 "There is a serious question about the authority of a poster who tries to tell the Scots that they are this or that when he's not even Scottish himself."

So much for the nationalist's all-inclusive Scottish citizenship . . .

I personally find that Brown is a thief, wanting to take the money from peoples accounts who haven't touched them or have lain dormant for a period of time. £73 million. First he steals pensions now this.. I think I also find the term brittishness to be insulting, I'm a Scots-Canadian and very proud of being Scots.

376,Guga. sorry hun you may have too put up with this a little longer, but do not worry what ever you are feeling at least you have devalution, more than we have in England!

If the Prime Minister calls a snap election all that need happen is for the SNP to gain the majority of the UK Parliament seats in Scotland. Clear the air a bit!
If Labour are "wiped out" then Scotland has spoken.

380. spoken about what!

Guga#376,

Maybe a petition should be organised to promote the idea of a Scottish passport!! I'm sure Mr Salmond would back that proposal!!!

It could be a winner, and could possibly reach out to Scots who are unsure of their loyalties!!!

One party state politics is so SNP.

But back to the man of the moment. Brown is safe bet for our Britain. He is an honest, hard working moral man with our best interests at heart. He is also a tried and trusted politician with a better understanding of world politics than anyone else in Britain.

A new dawn is approaching, and all of Britain will benefit. Rule Britannia

383. you could be right, salmond would back anything even if it's a lost cause!!

I agree, this one-pary state notion is very dangerous. I'm amazed about the enthusiasm of "consensus" politics. It ignore that the whol point of having an Opposition os to oppose the government of the day, to challenge them - in other words, to test the logic and reasoning behind the government's proposals and policies. If the political parties all get into the s ame bed and agree about everything, especially about the things that really matter, who will there be to rigorously challenge the government?? (Certainly not the BBC - their editorial independence is being eroded. Their fate looks likely to be the same, albiet a slower death, as that of London Weekend (?) after the "Death on the Rock" documentary that so embarrased the Thatcher government. If there was ever an example of State intimidation of the media and censorship in the UK, this was it!)

384. BUT THE ENGLISH DEMOCRATS ARE!!!!!!!!!!!1

Mona,

I would champion English passports too!!! You'd soon get used to the idea, although getting through passport control in many countries might be a problem for you!

Methalions

That too.

Britain is emerging from a trying period. Blair was a good man who happened to be in the firing line at a shocking time in world politics. He did well, how many of us could have coped with it all the way he did?

Brown is the man for our Britain. I am looking forward to a successful next ten years for Britain. Its our time

I honestly do not understand the mentality of those who vote for Labour. They have inflicted a great deal of damage on the UK. 90% of what Labour have done has been an obvious failure.

I can only assume those voting Labour are older voters who have voted Labour all their lives, or people are voting Labour as they see this party as the least worst option.

But to vote Labour for positive reasons I find simply unbelievable.

(A bit like some people who audition for X factor having negative singing ability, but think they are talented, and are amazed that the judges think they have no talent. Its unbelievable that people can be so self deluded. That is a bit how I see Labour voters)

One Party for One Folk.

Mr Brown offered neither brilliance nor ideology.

Thanks Big Brother Gordon!

If King James VI & I couldn't unite his people into one British folk how can Big Brother Gordon do that with First Minister Salmond whacking away at the underpinnings?

#372

Actually, I don't think AM2 is a unionist in those terms.

I just think his ideal of Britain is defined according to a cultural experience which is completely at odds with Scotland and England. Nothing more than that.

He just doesn't understand that the staunchness of his unionism isn't something that exists in Scotland.

To give you an idea, how many Scottish unionists to we see on these notice boards arguing for the union? One or two but nothing more and, even then, mostly trolls.

Any hardcore unionist in Scotland is normally one of a few different things: not Scottish, ex-military, or whatever. Very few staunch unionists are like that out of conviction without some background influence.

On the whole, Scottish unionists are probably not even aware of being unionists (like Not Uni not Nat, who actually isn't a unionist but nevertheless supports the union by and large). They would never call themselves that. Unionism in Scotland is not invested with passion or a stalwart belief in the sanctity of the UK. It's a passive acceptance of the status quo which is liable to change if and when indendence seems like a preferable option, as it seems to be now.

I can't see the movement towards independence stopping now. It's too much underway to stop. I wish to hell people would accept that and get on with it instead of prattling about like the Scotsman does.

Brown's vision: A one party state?
This assesment is 100% correct of our Fuhrer Brown.
Watching his well groomed sycophants extending their familiar practiced art of applause, must send Herr Brown into a state of delirium.
Where are the dissidents? Gone to the boozing dens? Or locked up somwhere in one off New Labour's overcrowded prisons?
I have failed to hear our genius off a Fuhrer use the word we; when delivering the usual catalogue off familiar deceit and lies. He somehow resents sharing ill-fated glory amongst his hand picked cabinet compatriots when ranting about his heartrending compassion for the poorly educated; filthy, squalid hospitals; vitims off our crime ridden localities ; the vicitims or relatives of our young service personnel; the poverty sricken all created under the dictator's own reign. Give him his due, it's always what I have done or what I have decided and never what we have done. The man was born never to do any useful worthwhile work in; or for the community. His whole adult privileged life has been spent in dreaming in how to get his name entered into the history books of fame. He really believes he has outsmarted the lying mob around him as well as the people of the UK, whom he and his previous lying compatriot had lied too over ten years. One fact these two will never escape from is their deceit and in the killing off the innocent in their five undeclared wars. None of these events are being allowed to surface, not even beind permitted mention during the rest of the weeks conference, as delegates revel in their annual jollifications.

#397 Methalions

An Illegal war indeed.

In hindsight, I am sure he agrees with you. But at the time it was touch and go and the pressure to do the right thing was immense. He did what he thought was right, and it turned out to be wrong.

If Iraq does gain a proper democracy one day, then I am sure there will be many who will praise the illegal war. Its all relative depending on which side of the fence you sit I guess.

But Britain under Brown looks good

#403 wrote:
>>In hindsight, I am sure he agrees with you. But at the time it was touch and go and the pressure to do the right thing was immense. He did what he thought was right, and it turned out to be wrong.<<

I think that statement is woefully far of the mark. I think the evidence is overwhelming that Blair was deliberately misleading parliament and the people before the war began.

I agree that Blair did what he thought was right - but that Blair also believed it was right to deceive the electorate and misrepresent the truth. Blair was a manipulative liar - for what he thought was good reasons - but he was still a manipulative liar.

402. wattie>x 1 -Absolutely spot on. We must never forget that Brown was Blair's right hand man throughout his reign. He was clever enough to keep his head down during Blair's bad times and he will continue to put himself and the english establishment before us so-called 'british'. It is already a one-party state - the Labour Con state

374 Mona

that would be democracy - try it, you might like it. If the vote is No in a fair and free vote of the Scottish people everyone will accept that. Opposing a referendum as so many unionists do is anti-democratic. Trying to invent obstacles in the event of a Yes vote, which is the new unionist game, would also be anti-democratic.

394 Media 1 - "Britain is emerging from a trying time" - not quite as trying as the time Iraq is having, with 100,000 civilians dead thanks to Blair and Brown. It must indeed have been tiring for them both, to have to systematically ditch every policy, principle and belief they ever had. I'm surprised they didn't end up with some damage to their mental faculties, as you seem to have endured, from the guilt, opportunism and sheer political debauchery of it all. Todays headlines - "Gordon steals Tory clothes"; "Wendy - I am so sorry" - enough to make even those of us can stomach AM2 boke.

#403

Britain under Brown looks good does it. I prefer Germany under whatever her name is..

Read this and tell me it doesn't make you wonder that Brown has got it all wrong.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7011932.stm

#401

I'm not Scottish and I'm ex military but I support Scottish independence with a vengeance mainly though because of stories like the above BBC one.

If you like - and it's not the best analogy - I want Scotland out from under the dead hand of the Treasury and the stifling influence of the City so that Scotland can do things like this. I'm sick of the excuses for doing nothing inspirational or exciting anymore. Even the ruddy trams being bought for Edinburgh are being built by a Spanish company...

Well done Gordon, perfect statesman. I think his next move should be to give Scotland the referendum that the S N P want, and once the majority vote against independance, then we can shut them up for at least 30 years.

403 - Media 1 - nauseating retro-justifications for an illegal war now?. Those who, you say, will praise the illegal war will not include the children now dying of cholera due to lack of sanitation and water, ruined by the illegal war. Worth noting that all oil installations in the vale of destruction Brown/Blair have made have electricity, water and are functioning normally.

409

Look at the level of constructive unionist debate - rank abuse. I hope AM2 and NAUON (AU really) will condemn this as heartily as they bleat about perceived abuse in pro-independence rhetoric.

why!

#364. England is a former independent Kingdom as is Scotland. Not really sure what you mean when you say 'nation'.; it can mean a host of things - often with racist overtones. Fortunately most people in the UK, including Scotland, are attached to the British state otherwise the SNP would have a sweeping majority. You nats are pixxing in the wind.

414 - The UN and international law.

Saddam gassed the Kurds - at a time when he was being supported and sold weapons by the UK and US. Another great Brittanic foreign policy success and another case of self-determination of a people being wilfully ignored, probably including by the likes of you.

#408. The trams are being built by a Spanish company because they won the contract. In an independent Scotland, all trams would be built by Scottish companies of course. Dream on.

Glad you said the U K, but I would get your facts right before you say such things. Anyway i`ve got better things to do than argue with an eejit aw night, go rustle up some Ayrshire soap dodgers.

#409 Mona. That's not very ladylike dear.

419 - glad I said the UK? What, saying the name of it undermines the case for scottish independence now? WHat should we refer to it as 'the country that must not be named'? What age are you, 4? Away rustle up another IQ point to rub against your current lone one.

Mr Brown is trying to hide the sinister aspects of his beliefs (One party state, New World Order etc) behind something wholesome like being English/British.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=786048453686176...

http://www.infowars.com/

415. SORRY YES YOU ARE!

418 - Trams will be illegal in an independent Scotland. As will gross stupidity. You'd better pack?

423 - Your father was a hamster and you smell of elderberries.

420. THE LAST TIME I CHECKED FCUK WAS A CLOTHING BRAND!

#414 watcherr4
Your total lack of empathy is worrying. Do you kick dogs?

#419 watcherrr4
Way to debate!

"Gordon Brown is successful in ways that those who gleefully criticise him will never be" says Pete of Paisley.

That's part of the problem Pete, to be 'successful' it is perceived that London is the prize and if you don't achieve London you are a nobody.

433 - my mother was some type of frost or weather condition? Weird!

Incidentally, did anyone notice that Maggie Broon slipped up a couple of times during his rant. His elocution lessons for getting rid of his Scottish accent are paying off, but presumably his union jack underpants are a wee bit tight, causing him to slip up now and again.

#434 I wouldn't pay too much heed to Pete from Paisley. He is obviously English the way he rants on now and again about "you Jocks". He can't help showing his anti-Scottish bias.

433 Mona

I can't help but notice that as well as not being able to spell at the level of a 7 year old (we have devolution not devalution by the way, and hoare isn't what you think it is) - you have addressed that remark at 433 to yourself. Number problems too?

426. if wev ever needed proof that the scottish education system was a waste of english money we have no better proof than your self!.

#440 Methalions. That Eckwatch is a total numpty. I don't know where he got his ideas from, maybe he's been at the magic shrooms again.

441 Mona

yourself is all one word dear, Scottish has a capital S, as does English, and you don't need an exclamation mark and a full stop. 3/10 see teacher (AM2) after class, you minging unionist virago.

445. Indeed. and as I said you are one!

445 - is it a type of hoare? a small rabbit ?

449. and you!

450 Mona

time for your rabbies shot and a wee nap now dear?

#450 Mona. Again, not very ladylike. The more so as I haven't descended to name calling like you.

#447 Methalions. I reckon you could well be right.

I like your "pictures". Always guaranteed to give a good laugh, and usually very appropriate.

444. whatever, we are not in a english lesson!

458 - plural of Ayrshire's and Scotland's greatest poet

Are we British yet? I's just cause I still feel and act in a very Scottish and more specifically Gael like manner and I have a doctors appointment for Thursday.....

459 - excellent, on my mother's side it seems

danielrober., #463.
'As for Britishness, well actually i feel UK'ish. New post imperial country. My country is the United Kingdom, (Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland, with respect ti the other islands).'

danielrober, you should have said, My nation is the United Kingdom, and not My country, as the United Kingdom isn't a country.

So now he's waving the Broonion Jack. Where will it end?

#470.danielrober, Outer London / 5:54pm 25 Sep 2007
‘Maybe we could just change the entire name of the nation and counties to somthing snapy and happy.
The ultimate name change, should be worth at least £100,000 consultancy fee.’

danielrober, for only £100,000, and the gradual and inevitable cultural take over by media, you would might as well pick GE, Great England, this is nothing to do with greatness, but just like the Great in Great Britain it is from its size.

Did Gordon Brown say he wanted a one party state, or was a it a Scotsman journalist?
This is spin by the Scotsman to wind-up the simple-minded SNP support and has it ever worked. The people who now think that Alec Salmond is the new messiah will be tearing him to shreds in six months when it becomes clear that he cannot deliver on his windy, exagerrated promises.
It is easy to see the Scots that want their fellow Scots to fail; there are around 350 posts here from them.
Gordon Brown is a mesmerising example of what Scots can achieve; Alec Salmond is not, he is a snide wanabee.

I do know the snp also want a one party state for scotland so alex and brown are the same.
By the way The Queen now has to ask Permission from the Ruling Party in scotland to Come up and visit and stay Now.
very soon she will be asked not to come back at all and all the Estates in Scotland will be ceazed by the scottish Parliament.

Pete, my wee pal! Where have you been? Did you store up all that bile on your own or did the carers help you?

Did you see the documentary on Channel 4 re. your hero (and homo-erotic idol) Johnny Adair last night?

Gordon Brown - mesmerising? Yes, if you like infanticide in Iraq, Trident WMD on the Clyde, Tory worship, Tory polices and above all the spectacle of a Labour leader lauding and applauding Thatcher. I hope all his Fife constituents find it mesmerising. I suppose watching a man abandon any and all principles and policies is mesmerising, in a sickening kind of a way.

#474 Pete, Paisley / 6:13pm

"Gordon Brown is a mesmerising example of what Scots can achieve"

Broon did absolutely nothing to prevent the war in Iraq, being more interested in protecting his position as PM in waiting.

Here is the result:

http://www.ac.wwu.edu/~stephan/USfatalities.html

Yes "mesmerising".

#476.danielrober, Outer London / 6:18pm 25 Sep 2007
‘GE is a bit cold. How about a return to the Phoneican term, island of the painted blue people (Britain, original spelling unknown to me).
Though i think Dave of the conservatives has already headed that way with his blue trees, insted of blue people.’

It can be a little cold up here, and so it might have not been down to any paint, if you know what I mean. ;-), though at one time this whole land was known as Alba, but is now the gaelic term for Scotland. Before it was known as Alba it would have had a name the picts or other “britains” had given it, though that name isn’t known.

Methalions # 477

You are a different class though! But, look at AyrshireScot # 478, he accuses me of bile, but in bile he is in a masterclass of his own.
He makes accusations all and sundry without a hint of proof or justification.
What child did Gordon Brown kill?
AyrshireScot does not want his politicians to have principle, that is why he is happy to converse with Alec Salmond via Salmond's rear.

482 Pete

by supporting, in cabinet and voting in the Commons, the illegal invasion of Iraq, with its disastrous lack of planning for the aftermath, Gordon Brown is in part responsible for the current situation - 100,000 civilians dead, cholera nearing epidemic in some areas, no infrastructure. A US Senator has described the situations as "infanticide masquerading as politics". As Brown continues with the disastrous policies re Iraq, he has full responsibility for what ensues.

#458

'Ayrshire.....what's rabbies?'

A disease where you start foaming at the the mouth and start spouting polemic and insulting people in pseudo-Scots.
Although not posessing the wit and cleverness of language of the poet the sufferer believes that every diatribe is satirical genius.

I wouldn't pay too much heed to Pete from Paisley. He is obviously English the way he rants on now and again about "you Jocks". He can't help showing his anti-Scottish bias.

#474.Pete, Paisley / 6:13pm 25 Sep 2007

Pete, you should know the Scotsman is written for those who are already unionist, if you get the impression it is written in a manner to wind up the SNP, instead of the way it should be written in, then maybe you are starting to realize the Scotsman will twist any story for the benefit of the union instead of writing an accurate piece.

PM Helen Clark is a different calibre of politician to Gordon Brown. She doesn't make long pompous speeches, merely clear statements of her party's position. "We do not seek as our first priority to make the rich richer of the powerful more powerful. Those who believe this is the aim of government could not support us." She doesn't bang on about her "Zealandness". She realises that adventurous youth will want to travel, study and work abroad and intends that New Zealand will welcome them back as employed or as employers.

She refused point blank any USA nuclear warmongering in NZ waters. I know scottish farmers' daughters who have pursued their careers with the same quiet determination. But not in scottish politics, more's the pity.

For £100,000 I give you The United Klingdom of Gordon Brown & New Labour (Hurrah)

#482.Pete, Paisley / 6:31pm 25 Sep 2007
‘What child did Gordon Brown kill?’

As you have asked Pete, any child in this Iraq war, due to his backing of said war, unless you have anything which has him saying we shouldn’t go in.

You still get GB on the erse of your car - saves a bit of dosh.

I'm just waiting for the spin on why he is losing a few letters of the alphabet from his speech and emptying his vowels in public. Certainly can't be to make himself understood in America or Europe.

490 Methalions
Noone, it was just the definition that came into my head when you asked the question - I saw when I posted that you had written a verse, it wasn't directed at you, if you were offended I apologise.
(that's sorry, not a Wendy Alexander I apologise - it was your own fault)
.

That's the sort of thing. None of that sort of nonsense today I don't think.
Now if AM2 could go a whole day without quoting that bloody survey that would be a miracle.

486

.....blethering, blustering blellum

500?

now

con-son-ants, Gordon, consonants.

I apologise to the Labour Party for bagging the 500.

#498 - if that's mona , perhaps blethering, blustering bisom

The only thing Herr Braun missed saying was "Arbeit Macht Frei". In all other respects he sounds much like the French and Austrian corporals who tried to rule the world but ultimately came to a very deserved sticky end, unfortunately not before they had laid waste to large parts of Europe. It is up to you voters in the UK to nip this new megalomaniac in the bud before he goes too far.

Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism. (George Washington)

508. not me, it's ayreshire scot.

511, karinm, I propse that cat owners be held responsible for the toilet behaviour of their pets.

o

508 :-)

bisom - such a great word, you scarcely hear it now.

512 Mona

Ayrshire has no 'e' (you can see it just above this post at 'Name'). For someone decrying the inadequacies of Scottish education which you claim to be paying for you are really not much of an advert for the English one. You bisom.

It really is laughable to read that anything English is under threat as more and more Scottish born people are following English ways even in the Western Isles and other parts of the Highlands on every front.
The Scots have for 500 years been at the forefront of assimilating things English and why not.

Is it not odd though that a Scottish born Prime Minister should be so strident in promoting the most English thing of all; the English Language.

Each language we are told has a value system; the English language is clearly one which has both liberty, and personal greed embedded at its core.

Prime Minister Brown is just one more example of needing to be more British than the English in order to get on. Another Scot on the make so what's new their then.

#515. AyrshireScot - Bisom

I could have sworn I heard Gordon-Browne use it 74 times in his speach yesterday.

Serpently a besom, but no very gallus.

Excellent story on Rep Scotland tonight. Scotland has the second most obese children in the world after the USA.

Thank you Labour.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7011757.stm

#515 AyrshireScot

Besom

# 475
As soon as Scotland has got it's independance you can vote for any party you like, right , left or centre. PM Brown does not even know where he stands. What about his socalled 'Britishness' Britain is just a group of isles , which is part of the UKofGB&NI, but which is not a nation. Does he want to say that the people from Spain, Portugal and Gibraltar all have to show their Iberianishnesh because they all live on the same Iberian peninsular? Let him go back to the Church of Scotland.

522 - Willie

indeed your're right :-)

518 COl B

Was that after the singing of land of hype and gusset?

527#

Anyone with an education should all be frightened of the SNP.

On the plus side they are good at changing flags, The Execs name and the time of the news...

527. Don't think he's scared, think he has this all planned out!

Quote of the day - 401 Winged M

"On the whole, Scottish unionists are probably not even aware of being unionists "

makes them sound a bit like unwitting carriers of TB or syphilis :-)

Surely, if the SNP really wanted to damage the British political system and work it to their own advantage, they would put all their efforts into unseating Prime Mimister Brown at the next British Election or is that just to much for them to contemplate or achieve.

531 HMFC

not all parties can be good at buying nuclear weapons of mass destruction and putting them in Scotland, trying to dump nuclear waste in Scotland, getting Scots soldiers and civilians killed in illegal wars, conducting warrant sales against the poor, sacrificing Scottish industries to suit 'greater' British needs. The SNP, being no good at these type of things, and even being short of arsonists and old-woman bashers, has to do other stuff. Like saving A&E departments, abolishing student debt, abolishing road tolls, charting a better future for our country.....

Is it any surprise that people from other countries or language groups have difficulty in working out that their are any differences between being Scottish and English when their are in reality so very very few.

Ayrshiresot. give it a rest, and yes I spelt your name wrong we all can make mistakes!!!!!!!!!!!!

My tuppence.

The Ethenpee will target a few of the more prominent seats, where depending on the quality of the candidate they might cause a few upsets. Overall I do not expect them to waste party resources on an election to a parliament that is increasingly becoming irrelevant to people in Scotland.

Here's a wee thought at the 2005 General Election the SNP returned 6 MPs with 412,267 votes. At the May 2007 Scottish Paliament Election that figure rose to 633,401....If that figure were replicated at Brown's next election how many extra seats might that mean?

I think a lot of people lose sight of the fact that on achieving Independence the SNP would break up and party members would then return to thier own party's or form a different party alltogether,they would of coarse negosiate terms with the UK but after that people would vote for whatever party they please.

542 - Mona - why are you now Kenya? Give what a rest?

#418 Royster said "In an independent Scotland, all trams would be built by Scottish companies of course"

Westminster and the City have killed off that possibility so others have got there first. But we might be able to build things like electric cars as indeed they are doing in that poor little impoverished independent country called Norway.

541.That's because we don't have kilts or loch ness you muppet!

This site really is very entertaining.

This AM2 fool. Is he a Scot? Or just a foolish propaganda merchant.

I have never heard anything so "daft" as a native born Scot seeing themselves as British first.

There may be a few dolt's that are so inclined, but a majority of Scots. Hardly.

All the best, Scotland's independence,quick. Before it is too late. England are really messing up their little country.

All the best.

549 - You can change your name, but you are still a minging virago

#543 AMNo2tiredofmoaningtothemoderator

I suspect the same will happen as has always happened - Scotland will vote Labour in an attempt to keep the tories out. Sadly there will be many Labourites using the results as an (apparent) indication that Salmond has been doing a bad job, choosing not to see the results for what they will really be.

547. your post at 529,and kenya is my daughter in the west midlands so get your facts srraight.

537. AyrshireScot

On the subject of old women bashers, someone said on that the former HMFC mouthpiece, was once the director of Age Concern(Scotland).

Surely she was making it up.

#545 karinm

What is the english national costume by the way? Is it a bowler hat and suit or that morris dancing thing?

Well it definitely isn't men wearing skirts and having no knickers on.

pass the sick bucket... baaarrrffff... this egomaniacal, and megalomaniacal attitude should have been lost and buried with Hitler, Stalin, Mao and their generation... but no... apparently in little Kurkcaldy the devil's spawn was reincarnated in the form of a preacher's son... quick bring the excorcist!

thanks mum,but this ayrhead is not worth it.

539

The English don't need a national dress as they are always in fashion like the Americans. National dress is only for those who feel inferior or left out.

#546

Karinm

I believe this is the accepted outfit of the Englishman abroad.

http://tinyurl.com/2l5wcq

553 - Mona

so sorry. I can see the resemblance. Did you home school her?

Anyway, now we have cleared up the ID confusion, YOU are still a minging unionist virago

559 - strange, I have lived abroad and travelled extensively, and you name two of the mostly widely reviled and disliked nationalities by other peoples globally. Perhaps a national disguise would be more helpful than a national costume?

I think in English it is always besom but in Scots it can be either besom or bisom according to your dialect. Either way it's a good word.

So's blellum,thanks for that, I'm going to try and use it tomorrow at work.

512 - Mona, I always thought Ayrshire was a man.

559.How right you are,but the scots are a bunch of fashion imbasiles.

Superb speech, Brown has laid out in several clear points why it is now time for Scotland to go it alone and ditch the dying, imperialist 'British' state.

'Britain' was always an imperialist construct, designed to legitimize the annexation of Scotland in 1707 and the subsequent rape of countless other indigenous peoples - in India, South Africa, Australia etc, the list is endless... Shame on you Brown for choosing to build your political image on such a wicked past.

Now more than ever we need radical socialist government to destroy the apparatus of the bourgeois state and institute a popular democratic government. Shame on you complacent English and Scots for voting for these functionary idiots in such large numbers. Anybody read Orwell's 1984 or Animal Farm recently, for I smell bacon.

#553
A mother and daughter combo from England using first names only, didn't you two post under different names a few weeks ago, one of you was marrying a Scotsman (presumably blind and soon to be deaf).

566 BMeister - no probs, ya skellum

567 - yes, we can see the much vaunted Mona educational system has paid dividends. I think Kenya is just Mona, either that or a plummeting IQ is clearly congenital.