'The basis for this more cautious approach to Scotland's future in Europe is a major piece of academic research, written in 1999, but not publicised since.'

So why is it being publicised *now*?
Need I ask?

The EU has done nothing but cost Scotland and the UK as a whole. Its whole purpose was setup decades ago as part of a One World Government :)

Another scare tactic from the Scotsman.

Do you really think people fall for all this?

Why didn't you publish some of the things the EU would lose if we left?

For example: Scottish fishing territory. Scottish airspace which most North American bound aircraft have to pass through. Scottish oil and gas.

Another article that makes me glad I no longer subscribe to the Scotsman.

So technically if Scotland secedes, Scots would have to apply along with all non-EU citizens to emigrate and work in the UK/England (at least until EU membership is approved). Of course, the English would probably be very nice and let Scots work anyway. Wouldn't they?

Here is a brilliant vid on the EU http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=269980030027416...

Another day another fear another smear - just another working day for The Scotsman.

How many articles a week in this rag start with the words - 'The SNP's case for Independence was dealt a damaging blow when'...blah blah blah?

It always turns out to be a story about ten years old and always by Hamish McDonnell.

Who IS HE?

Where did you find him?

I wonder how much the EU would pay for Scottish gas after Belarus and/or Ukraine cut off their supplies from Russia.

I do not actually think that this is the case. It is another example of scaremongering. However, even if true, it does not scare me at all. Vote SNP - get a referendum on Independence and a referendum on membership of the EU. That would suit me (and I suspect many others) just fine.

Pardon me for posting from the US. I am a Scotsman though...
Anyway, I agree with Sheena. Go for it! Scots are not easily scared.

Comment@10 MichieR, hi mate, I'm sure your more that welcome here dude :)

Comment@11 Scottwebb - Thanks - Just got back from Scotland last week. First time there. BEAUTIFUL! Wow what lucky people are the Scots.

By the way, I'm a developer and wouldn't mind working in your wonderful country.... :)

Glad you like Scotland mate, by the way, you should sent your CV on to some of the banks here as they're always looking for skilled developers and i hear the pays good :)

Sorry but there's just no way Malta, Bulgaria and Romania are more qualified to be part of the EU than Scotland!
More blatantly unionist claptrap from this stupid rag.

And as for you Royster, the end of the UK would surely mean England having to reapply to the EU as well, or are they somehow exempt?

No. 2. the EU was set up between France and Germany with the Benelux counties and Italy by a man called Jean Monnet in an atempt to stop another World War nothing to do with a World govenment. If Scotland was to be independant it would have to be in the EU as it just isn't powerfull enough economically to be alone. Also the EU are not going to come running to us for any oil or gas because our reserves are not even enough to cover the UK let alone Europe.

#15, ee-aww!!
no it wouldn't.
The report says the "United Kingdom" would keep all of its seats. For "England" to have seats it would need to be independent, so it would also have to make a fresh application. Or are England and Britain the same thing?

Is this really a case of worrying over something that hasn't happened yet?

Comment@16 Mini, two things dude, 1. I never mentioned oil or gas....2. I could post about 100 vids on the subject of World Government that say different.....all 100% verifiable but i will leave you just one. Its an interview with a great old guy just before he died . Well worth the watching as it gives insight into many things happening now :) http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-73732017832404...

# 17, ohh sorry you must be scottish, read this very slowly.

"Mr Happold said the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland would remain the nation state, a member of the EU, a member of the United Nations, NATO and other international organisations and Scotland would be seen as seceding from it. Scotland would then have to apply for membership of each international organisation it wanted to join."

Surely the reason why this 1999 research was not published is because the people who commissioned it will have read it and thought that is was poor quality.

My experience of the UK was that it is a culture where EVERYONE seeks publicity. Research projects are expensive business and the fact that the results of this research were never published speaks volumes about the quality of it!

As for the Commissions representative in Scotland "Neil Mitchison", I wonder which party his allegiance is with and how many times he dines with David Martin.

Why is it that if the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is broken up (and it is the Scottish and English Kingdoms that United) then one of the Kingdoms is allowed to carry on as normal, but the other has to reapply?

And why is it that no-one with any credibility in Europe has been asked by the Scotsman to give a view on this matter? Does no-one take your calls or are you just doing a favour for Jack McConnell by picking up this non story that his election machine dug out for you?

Are we really to believe that if the United Kingdom ceases to exist, that the French, Germans and Italians are going to send an email to some faceless civil servant in their Edinburgh office asking "what should we do now, Neil?"

And the best reason that people can give for Europe wanting to renegotiate Scotland's existing membership would be the introduction of the Euro. Do you not see how ridiculous you make your paper look by repeating this type of garbage?

I have no interest in whether or not Scotland gains independence but I do like to see decent quality, intellectual argument being put forward. It is the duty of your journalists to go and find people who have got the knowledge and authority to speak on these issues.

I can only conclude that the reason you do not do this is that you do not want to publish the real fact which is that, in reality, Scotland

#20, are you thick or something?

he was responding to a post about "the English", not "the British". This would imply that England had its own seats. It wouldn't unless it was independent.

Stop being so childish.

What scares me is the idea of the SNP 'negotiating' Scotland's future.

Since the prerequisite for this state of affairs will have been Scotland gaining independence, presumably on the back of a significant SNP majority, we're left with the scary concept of their finest setting the terms.

Even scarier since their main reason for existence would have been achieved and they won't know what to do with themselves or the country.

Cassa the SNP dont need to do it all themselves in their tea break.Once independence is acheived, they can hire professional lawyers and utilise international courts to help finalise a settlement on our behalf.

# 20. So we are to believe that after Scotland disolves the Union the English are going to continue to call themselves the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland?

If there is no Scotland then there is no United Kingdom. It is that simple.

There may well be implications for Scotland but there will be more serious implications for the English too. The Welsh and Nothern Irish are irrelevant as a they are not a constituent part of the Union.

This article also mentions the threat to EU funding but fails to mention that EU funding in Scotland is ALREADY at a much reduced level than what it was when the research was done in 1999.

This story is complete garbage, making use of research that was not good enough to be published at the time. To save yourself from looking daft, you need to get facts to support your arguments from credible sources.

This story smells like nothing more than a journalist doing a favour for someone in government.

I am sure that there will be very good arguments against Scotland going it alone, but there are none in this article.

Surely "hiring pro lawyers and utilising international courts" is not "independence?" This hasn't even gone to referendum yet. It may not even happen.

The scotsman for a broadsheet are really starting to embarrass themselves with the quality of their journalism. Sadly we will see more of this type of scaremongering as elections draw closer.

Would anyone want an Independent Engerland in the EU?

Apart from the fact that this is more unionist tripe, just trying to put the frighteners on us again, I'm not so sure I'd want us to stay in the EC.

The CAP and the CFP cost everyone a lot of money, as does the immense bureaucracy, and the MEP's, involved in running the EC. Small businesses might also be better off without the mountains of paperwork, red tape and regulations they have to deal with.

No doubt we will continue to get a lot more "scare" stories coming out, and well publicised by the unionists that run the likes of the Scotsman.

Ohh, The EU should remember they need the scots more than the scots need the EU.. hahahahahah

Scottwebb. You worry me. You are in the same league as David Ike. Conspiricy theories on the web do not prove anything. You can check the facts about the formation of the EU and Jean Monnet ect. but I doubt this will change anything. The oil comment was meant as a general point to all those that believe it will give Scotland power, influence and financial stability. No. 25. what do you mean by "The Welsh and Nothern Irish are irrelevant as a they are not a constituent part of the Union"? The Irish at least are as much a part of the union agreement as anyone as they joined as a whole island in 1700. However I agree that the Scotsman has lost the plot and is now a second rate paper. Game, set and match Herald.

Sorry should have bee 1800 for Ireland's inclusion in the union.

Don't take it out on the Scotsman. The paper is giving direct quotes from law lecturers and what they say about the EU is true. #25 I don't think the name matters as Russia plus the Soviet republics was known as the USSR prior to the split but Russia inherited the seat at the UN. I am a unionist but I think things would sort themselves out eventually. However by seceding, there would some uncertainty as to Scotland's membership and there would be no obligation for an English govt to allow Scots to work there. Don't expect a similar deal to the Irish which got all their UK entitlements in about 1916 and there was no EU. England might give Scots equal access but the English electorate is unlikely to view Scots so favourably after independence and it is conceivable they could make things difficult - though unlikely. Also, other factors could come into play. Other European nations might veto Scotland's EU bid as they are afraid parts of their own countries may secede (Britanny for France, the Basque country and Catalonia for Spain, all of Italy. The SNP and many Scottish nationalists only tend to give the best case scenarios. All the risks lie with Scotland not England.

#34. It's not nonesense. There are direct quotes from 2 experts in their field - one at Edinburgh and one at Hull. You don't have to be a professor to know about the law. It's common sense if you think it through. Scotland walks away so Scotland has to make its own arrangements as a separate legal entity. England/UK is not walking away so its arrangements, and legal entity, remain as before less references to Scotland.

Are the Norwegians with their three million lonely persons living outside a big warm EU shivering in their boots?? Take a boat trip over and ask. I personally do not know any Scots working in the EU. I know plenty working every where else including Norway. We could close up half our oil wells and be self sufficient for the foreseeable future. Also re-skill our depressed work force---like outcast Norway has been doing for the last twenty years.

Most of the above comments from both sides miss the realpolitic of the situation.

If Scotland does leave the Union, a new Political State would exist. The question is- what is the status of this state within the EU. It is obviously not (yet) a member with representatives and a civil service dealing with the EU; that is just starting. The 'rump' state of England Wales and NI (Rump Britain) would have this status.

The EU would need to address this problem in a political manner. As mentioned above, several states might be totally opposed to such a development as it would affect their own relationships with their own internal nations- Spain, France, Italy- or states with minorities of neighbouring populations- Bulgaria, Romania, etc.. They may wish to make it clear that secession or redrawing boarders is unacceptable.

Additionally, full recognition of Scotland as an independent state would require a complete renegotiation of voting rights within the EU. As a full member, Scotland would probably have about 10 votes. The rump Britain would probably still retain its 78 seats as its population would be still close to France and Italy and much higher than Spain. Rump Britain would have a veto over this. So 10 extra seats would need to be found. This would affect other members adversely. Not insurmountable, but a problem all the same.

Additionally, expansion of the EU is currently unpopular in many constituent states. Although Scotland would be a special case, it wouls still be aproblem to be overcome.

The Euro is another problem- would Scotland be treated as a new applicant or not. A political problem, but still a problem.

And then there are the transitional problems with what to do in the time between Scotland being recognized as a separate State, and its being received into the EU as a full member.

None of the above makes a move to full membership impossible, but then nor does it assist the case for the SNP's positi

#37. Leaving the EU and setting a low flat tax rate would be the best way for an independent Scotland. Also, slashing public expenditure. Scotland, like Norway, could still join the EEA which means Scots could still work in England (though it may be possible for an EEA member to veto EEA membership for a new applicant - anybody know?). EEA is the EU countries plus Norway, Liechtenstein, Iceland and Switzerland I think.

No. 37. Norway plays no significant role in any international politics. If we were to become independant I for one would want Scotland to at least have a voice in international politics, without the EU our voice will be a meare whisper as the big boys play out thier games. Back to the oil "We could close up half our oil wells and be self sufficient for the foreseeable future" where do you get such rediculous ideas? Alex salmond who bases his economic plan on the price of oil being around $65 a barrell thinks that we will only make a small surplus if we maintain full oil production. Please everyone who thinks oil is the answer stop and think about how small our reserves are and the increasing domestic demand for the product.

I believe that England, NI, and Wales would be regarded as the successor state. Scotland the new country having created its self out seceding from UK (i.e. England, NI, and Wales remain the UK) so Scotland reapplies to be blocked by SPAIN. Who would do this to avoid problems with some of their provinces. At the end of the day all this would have to be negotiated, and as with any legal opinion there will be two sides.
#10/12 Your not a Scot, you admit it was your first visit so you assertion is the same as me claiming to be a Norwegian because my family came over in the longships

Thank god the truth is now coming out.

Alex Salmond has eventually been exposed for the fraudster that he is. He has continuously suggested that Scotland would be an automatic entry into the EU and in doing so he has shown us that his political skills are less than admirable. (Not to mention his hidden agenda's)

The SNP cannot be allowed to destroy Scotland, we just cannot allow it.

Montenegro declared independence from Serbia on June 3, 2006....on June 28, Montenegro became the 192nd member state of the United Nations.

Perfect no Euro or flighting whims dictated from Brussels

Guys,

want my advise on Scottish independence and the EURO - don´t do it and don´t join it. Period.

I used to live in Germany when the EURO started over there and prices have almost doubled since then. Interestingly, the wages were converted accurately and have gone up only slightly - compared to the prices of goods used everyday. Of course politicians try very hard to convince people that everything is just fine - but then again, that´s just how politicians are, isn´t it.

If you wanna do something for Scotland - make it stronger and stronger withing the UK! Take benefits out of being a member of an already prosper economy and continue to work on independence within the UK instead of starting from scratch and instead of ending up competing with Belarus, Romania, etc. (sorry guys, no offence meant). Start and continue dominating the UK instead of being dominated by civil servants in Brussels.

Remember, politics and polititians come and go, the country and its people (and the problems both of them have to face) remain.

Have a nice day, Tarvoc

No. 43. This is merely a personal thing about Scotland being internationally involved but I believe that we are a great country that has contributed much to the world and that without being internationally significant as I feel we would be outside the EU we could not achieve our full potential. I also feel that if we were to become independent then as a country we should become more involved in world politics and try to establish ourselves as international statesmen. This country can be strong but not by removing ourselves from the world and watching from afar.

I find it so sad that the Unionists always doubt the abilities of the Scottish people (and of course an independent Scottish government).
This types of news-story will become all the more common in the run up to the election as the Unionists panic while they see their flawed British state breaking up before thier eyes.
If smaller less wealthy nations can join the EU, then Scotland would have no problems whatsoever.

Good morning to you all.

Having read all of your comments, one thing stands out; you all couldn't agree on the colour of sh**e.

Stop jiber-jaberin' and get behind the SNP in May, hen we will see just what happens.

FREE SCOTLAND

P.S.

Send Hamish an e-mail.

Sure he would love to hear your views.

This article is exactly the same as one from the time of the last elections, and the elections before that and so on. Nothing new, typical scaremongering.

Bought and sold by England's gold

Such a parcel o' rogues

In a nation

'Rabbie Burns'

Scotspatriot. Not sure how serious you are but without a solid term running the Scottish Parliament as it is how can you possible trust the SNP to run an independent Scotland? Also the Free Scotland thing makes it sound like we are subjects when we are anything but. Just look at what we did in the Empire and the number of Scottish ministers, Defence, Transport, Home secretary, Chancellor ect. if anything it is the English that are our subjects.

why would or should Scotland want to be in the EU,its done nothing for scotland or the uk apart from make it a nanny state, something i would be happy to see gone.

Surely if we become indepenent there will be more than just the SNP party on the band wagon? Or will Scotland become a one party state?
#59 If you don't trust the SNP I'm sure you'll be able to vote for wee Jocky ,I'm sure he'll be hanging aboot.

Mini Mitch,

Let's take a legal stance here, for instance.
We have a devolved government. Great.
If it hadn't been for Maggie Thatcher, we might never have got that. I'll let you think about that one.

All legislation passed down by the Scottish parliament is called 'subordinate legislation.'
Westminster terminology, not mine.
The fact that there are Scottish ministers in Westminster is not lost on the English MPs. They hate it. Jeremy Paxman quoted on the fact. The 'Scottish Raj' I think he called it.

We are subjects in their eyes. Fact.

FREE SCOTLAND

P.S.

The Empire is dead. Thank the Almighty.

'Britains' atrocities building the Empire are nothing to be proud of.

Scotspatriot. we would be poorer without the union and 61. do you really want to jump off the cliff holding the hand of the SNP who have a no experience running a country?

If this is the case i Dont hear England panicking .They would be in same position,Its unionist scare stories agian ,

Calling anything that happened in the Empire atrocities is clearly placing values that we hold today on past events. This should never be done as it was a different time and different values. This is a mistake often made when looking at the relationship between Ireland and Britian and the 1707 union.

#64 So we just keep holding hands with the numpties we have? Get a backbone Mini.

"Most Londoners (ie all those not actually Scots) don't know or care. Why would they? Most people I've met equate British and English. Scotland is about as important to them as Northern Ireland. That is - not."

Quote from an English friend.

#66 thats all fine and well saying that now the Empire has the coffers in the bank.

Comparable to me stealing your money making you work all your life to build my bank balance, dying then my offspring saying it wasn't me not my values im not responsible.

The Vienna Convention on Successor States applies.

Under it the succeeding states retain the rights and obligations of the predecessor states under any and all treaties signed by that state. All the states of the EU are, I believe, signatories to the Convention.

The Convention also applies to the distribution of both assets and debts from the predecessor to successor states.

And lest anyone think it is an old Convention no longer applicable to the modern world let me point to the dissolution of Czechoslovakia into the Czech and Slovak Republics which was governed by the Convention.

The EU cannot overrule international law of which the Convention is part.

All very interesting.
From personal experience, I don't like Scotland or the Scottish very much, and yet.. although I can understand some of the sentiment expressed here, I just cannot, for the life of me, understand why Scotland would want to swap the benign, centuries-old alliance with England and Wales for the malign, over-regulated, bloated, unaccountable and provably corrupt tyranny of the EU!
Are you all mad?
Go for independence if you must - To be frank..I think the UK is well rid of the whole quarrelsome lot of you - but don't think for one moment that you'll get that "independence" in the EU.
Talk about "out of the frying pan into the fire"!
ArthurC

Mini mitch,

Are you doing a school project on this?

Different time, different values?

Freedom and dignity are timeless Mitch.

70 Sounds like A Scottish Unionist

Arthur.

One thing.

Bite my Scottish, hairy erse.

No matter what you say from now on, I will not reply to you.

Cadgers. You are what is wrong with the Nationalist movement. You are too focused on England, with you it’s not a discussion about the merits of an independent Scotland but an anti English rant or if there is something about Scotland it is merely saying that we can do better than the English. Then as soon as a Scotsman disagrees with you they are a unionist sympathiser or anti Scottish. Running a country is about as hard a task as your going to find but, all the idiots like you can say is its going to be better. All I want is some evidence that the SNP is capable of governance before giving them carte blanche to do what they want.

Ok, if the EU don't want to admit us, tell them to stuff it. Norway isn't in the EU and is doing fine. With our resources, the EU would be desperate for us to join - and I suspect that the report publicised here may well be erroneous anyway.

The truth of the matter is that once in Europe, it's probably better to stay in. However, if you're not in Europe, there is a strong argument for not joining but merely joining the EFTA.

The Scotsman is so pathetically unionist - always uses words like separatism (whatever that means) rather than independence.

The usual Unionist scaremongering garbage we have come to expect from the Scotsman. An embarrassment of a newspaper.

scotspatriot. Comment 73 is exactly what I'm talking about. Arthur C has put up some points about the merits of joining the EU albeit along with saying he wants rid of us but then you come back and rather than debate the issue you merely tell him to piss off. If this is the independence movement then you can keep it. Scotland is great and we should promote its plusses not make an anti English campaign filled with bile, contempt and hatred.

#70 Personally Arthur I dont hate the English, I just feel sorry for you, having to be brainwashed into a class system over centuries. Where your status is defined by your wealth from Royalty downwards where everyone is meant to chase the ideaology of being Royal.

Never understood why natives in America africa or any other country were so wrong, Crap I forgot the Church which was formed by Royals to justify there actions, or maybe the Catholic Church which was formed by foreign powers to justify there actions neither of which have obviously read the bible or read the ten commandments it preaches.

76 & others

Yep, the Scotsman is a paper that has become embarrassing.

As if the EEC would deny Scotland entry if it so wanted!

When Scotland becomes independent and it is declared as a new state by the EU and has to apply for entry, then since the United Kingdom no longer exists, England, Wales and Northern Ireland also become a new state(s) and would also have to apply for membership.

Since the UK government has never accepted the Euro and has insisted on such a large refund the likelyhood of them being accepted without strings is remote. Perhaps this present government have suddenly realised this and this is the real reason for their blackmail attempts.

Don't be fooled. France will ensure that any conditions for Scotland's membership will also apply to the new state(s) of England, Wales and Nothern Ireland.

what a load of drivel. I'm terrified and so should you all. Unionism is dead ;-)

Yes well We do have 300yrs experience in the Mother of all Parliaments ,Great CV ,Im Changing from Labour to SNP Simply because the NHS is on its Knees ,Ive seen it 1st hand in the Cancer wards etc,ITS BAD.

Being legally obliged to adopt the euro is meaningless: Sweden has such an obligation and is deliberately exploiting a loophole to keep its own currency indefinitely. End of problem.

#3 and others.

“Another scare tactic from the Scotsman”!!!.

You people are laughable. Every time you don’t like what you hear you play this card.

Devolution is an expensive disaster. The SNP (like the current bunch) are made up of third-rate councilors. It can only get worse. For goodness sake you are giving up a great Union with real power, alongside true friends for an organisation that could not care less. The grass is always greener, eh!

A quote from Mr Happold dissected each one of the SNP's arguments and concluded that an independent Scotland "'would not only fail to get automatic membership of the EU, but would probably be much worse off than it is now, with less influence and less money".

Under the Barnett formula, Scots receive a public subsidy 20% higher than the English. Glasgow has considerably higher job vacancies than the national average but still has a 20% higher rate of its citizens claiming benefits with Hutchenson town having a stonking 7 out of 10 of its citizens claiming incapacity benefit alone.

An independent Scotland is going to have to kiss goodbye to 1 in 5 of its public services offered to its good citizens in a country where its most populous and prosperous city has considerable expenditure on state benefits above the current national average.

I know Scots think that independence will lead to increased economic benefits and improved social policy. However, with those statistics, once the support structures and cushioning is diminished, how long would it be before Nationalism becomes replaced with right-wing philosophies that encourage the culling, like badgers, of the unemployed and needy?

Food Snob - that may be the case but if it didnt publish what Scots want to read it would be out of business - does that suggest that more Scots agree with it than not ? In which case are these forums just anti-The Scotsman and anti-English ?

This is the kind of drivel that labour will be spouting on the door step. It's complete tosh to suggest we could not survive outside the UK. The EU would activley encourage our inclusion, but let's look forward to the future , it's China we should be making overtures to not the EU.

Mini,

I never told him to piss off, I told hime to chew on my erse. There is a difference.

And I say this as he was only trying to instigate bad feeling. He has nothing of relevance to say to me just like yourself.

Blackpool & Fylde has Highest Amount of Single parents on benefits in UK,

The EU Commission and their leading academic lackies should perhaps not be so presumptious as to assume that an independent Scotland would automatically want to be a member of their club. I can only hope that a Scottish government would not attain independence from London and immediately hand it over to Brussels.

As far as I am aware (and I’m not an expert) the UK and Great Britain are two different things. I though the United Kingdom applied to Scotland and England and Great Britain and Northern Ireland was made up of Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland?

I may be wrong, just a point.

Incidentally (“I may be wrong”) is a phrase you will rarely see used within this forum as everyone is an expert especially anti independence wafflers. Especially Media 1

Oh well if we have to do a bit of work to get our independence then is it worth it?

Damn right.

Remember The Scotsman may even be trying to help us on this as it knows very well the more you tell a child they can’t they almost certainly will, thanks to The Scotsman.

Tomorrows Headline

Professor Dumbledore throws his weight about: Having looked at all the evidence along with Harry Potter my conclusion is state funding (from Scotland) for Hogwarts would be slashed and all the wizards would have to ply their trade elsewhere. So its no a good idea.

p.s. #77 MiniMitch, if anyone stoops to immediate insults about my race why should I or anyone enter into a debate with them. He is nothing but an idiot. Notice I didn’t generalise a whole nation there.

Being out of the European Union is the first and so far the only benefit of an independent Scotia.

scotspatriot. Your an idiot.

HarryArgyll - Scottish is a nationality not a race. The British are an island race, like it or not.

Is that your contribution #94?
My guess is you are a teacher.

Though a question. Under current law are we not all British not English or Scottish etc. Or are we all European now we have EU passports - one with the Frenchies et al?

och no harry, I'd be calling the register at this time if that were the case. I was trying to allude to commonality between inhabitants of the British Isles rather than the predominantly hostile angst here.

This is nonsense.

The United Kingdom came into being on the Union of Scotalnd and England. If that Union is dissolved then

1 either Scotalnd and England are successor states and both succeed to the UK's international rights and obligations

or

2 neither do.

It follows that if Scotland is no longer an EU member on the dissolution of the UK , then neither is England.

In fact both will continue as EU members and the only thing to adjust is weighted voting in the Council etc. Additionally Greenland, part of Denmark, left the EU but that departure had to be negotiated and required a change at Treaty level. So you are in, once in, , and need to negotiate out , not vice versa. (and for that departure unanimity was required)

Politically who imagines the EU which admits Latvia and Bulgaria is going to kick Scotalnd or England out?

It would help the debate if the quality of Scotsman journalism was higher and 24 year olds did not write articles having trawled all over the place to get the opinion of other 24 year old "academic" lawyers.

#94
Definitions

Race categories include both racial and national-origin groups.

A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution

Humans considered as a group.

Billy writes "The EU would activley encourage our inclusion, but let's look forward to the future , it's China we should be making overtures to not the EU." Would this be China, the bastion of human rights abuses? China that wouldn't know what democracy is if it bit it on the arse? China, where its citizens routinely flee it as economic migrants (despite its alleged miracle economy) and where 70 of them alone have died in the UK of suffocation in the back of a lorry while being smuggled in or drowned while cockle-picking? Does Billy think there are Scots in Shanghai selling bird whistles and flourescent flashing bunny ears in the street like there are Chinese migrants in Sauchiehall Street. Tsk! and double Tsk! If that's the best economic inspiration for independence, Scotland is doomed.

You see I just hate so called experts and know it alls.

Correcting people when they know very little themselves.

So I am now out of this debate.

What a lot of hot air.

Scotland will NEVER go independent. This is a pipe dream by silly wee Scotlanders.

We have too much to lose on an international scale.

People can see that and aren't stupid all the time.

England needs us and we need the Union.

Having to relinquish membership of the EU is the most singularly important aspect of Scottish Independence. This alone will make everything else worth while.
I have yet to meet a Scot who wanted to be part of Europe in the first place, and now that the English have finally started to see sense the same applies to those I have spoken to as well.
Imagine the benefits of telling Europe and Blair/Browns obsequious in it only for themselves do gooders where they can stuff their immigrant hoards. We have more than enough already.
Union out, Europe out, Immigrants out, Connel out. Such cheer to make up for the constant downpour from the heavens. When the oil runs out we'll flog them water instead!!!

This blows a hole in the SNP hidden agenda!

NO TO INDEPENDENCE

Sounds like a lot of nonsense to me. I can't believe that the EU would want a country with the prestige of Scotland to be excluded. If re-entry as Scotland is required formally then I'm sure this would be done 'on the nod'. I'm sure that Europe would be more worried that Scotland might say 'no thanks'.
As for the 'UK' being in existence once Scotland left, that also sounds like a lot of nonsense. Great Britain would no longer exist so how could you have the United Kingom of Great Britain and N.Ireland?
Anyway, if Scotland leaves then we English must be given a referendum on whether we want to ditch Wales and N.Ireland.
Mind you with these lying Unionist politicians we have at the moment I expect they would try and say that nothing has changed!

Bluey , we can no longer afford to spout off to other countries about their human rights. Name one country the UK refuses to trade with because of their record on Anything. Wake up.

102. I agree with you about the union but to say that Scotland will never be independent is just not realistic with they current evidence. There are too many idiots out there like scotspatriot who feel that being Scottish means being anti English with their opinions based upon some deranged, twisted form of Scottish history that negates any positive influence from the 1707 union and therefore getting out of what they see as a subservient relationship.

Salvation notes that "Having to relinquish membership of the EU is the most singularly important aspect of Scottish Independence. This alone will make everything else worth while. " Is this the same EU that has sunk £100 million into the Highlands and Islands area of Scotland alone from just the European Regional Development Fund alone in a mere 5 year period?

AlphaNeil and BorderRiever , both of you write with Knowledge of this subject , unlike most of the rest.

Scottwebb - stop the Wacky it is not doing you any good.

Anyway enough of the English Teacher.

Of course it would not be a straightforward switchover and The Scotsman should be congratulated for highlighting this. Alex Salmond makes it sound like switching a litghtbulb - as he does with most things which is enough reason for me to be wary of him.

The EU IS a big lumbering beaurocratic beast m there is no doubt - partly due to the number of individual languages and countried which it supports.

If I could remove one level of government from Scotland it would be the one closest to home. To those of you who seem to want out the Union and out of the EU - you scare me you really do.

Scotch Mist isnt real and we cant survive on it.

I think it grossly unfair to Scotland that it could find itself outside the EU, in the event of independence.

I'll do you a deal: vote for independence and I'll let you retain the former UK's EU membership, while England thereby escapes from it!

Set England free
Vote SNP

People should remember that the British Institute of International and Comparative Law has very close links with the British government and does a lot of work for Whitehall departments. It is in effect an organ of the British state.

Also Lorand Bartels is an old fashioned right wing colonial.

Another day, another smear.

"We can no longer afford to spout off to other countries about their human rights. Name one country the UK refuses to trade with because of their record on Anything. Wake up."

Put aside the human rights stuff and immorality of its foreign and domestic policies and wake up about the realities of wooing China as a replacement economic trading partner or inspiration as an economic model?

It's regarded as the primary site for the production of counterfeit goods. It would be like trading with a country thats run along the same lines as the Barras!

A professor of economics writes this "in Africa, China is engaged in an imperial colonial venture that brings to mind British imperialism in India and Australia in an earlier time. China is making African nations heavily indebted. The Chinese go into a country, offer to build the infrastructure up and in exchange the countries encumber their natural resources to China. It’s a model of development that will keep these countries perpetually poor."

And you want this for Dundee....?

Just thought you should now - Schuman is the most depressing area on Earth.

#113 I do believe Dundee already has an infrastructure.

More scaremongering from the 'Anti-Scotsman'. You cannot rely on this mob to publish impartial facts. There is an anti-independence agenda to every story they write.
I appeal to all people of nationalist sympathies to stop buying pro-Union papers, (that means all of them, unfortunately). Maybe then they will get the message.

"There is no reason why Scotland could not continue to welcome them outside the EU, but there would be considerable problems for Scots working across the continent."

This would not be the case for Scots presently working in the EU. These are all UK passport holders. And for potential future EU workers, it would depend on the citizenship arrangements made at the time of the independence negotiations.
The UK has a tradition of allowing multiple nationalities. So Scots at present abroad might reasonably expect to have the option of dual Scottish and British nationality.
And do the constitutional experts expect that Scots working in England would be required to apply for residence permits, as was the case before 1707!

What a pile of Unionist hogwash - but no surprise there coming from Hamish McDonnell!

I think the semantics over whether there are automatic rights to membership of the EU, UN etc., becomes balderdash when you realise it is in Europe's interests to have an Independent Scotland within its membership. Why else has it been courting Norway to join for decades!

But even if it didnt join the EU, as a member of the European Economic Activity Area, a country gains all the benefits of trade within the EU but without a lot of bureaucracy.

There is much debate to be got through before an Independent Scotland applies for full membership of he EU. The issues raised daily in these columns prove that- fishing, the environment, farming, currency, business. We must defend our rights. The jury is out on the right way forward.

The important thing is to get Scotland standing up for ourselves and not be distracted from voting for Independence by stories like this. Vote SNP in May- the EU will want us, but will we want them? After Independence it's up to us to get the best people leading and serving the country for it's long-term good, preferably non-politically.

I believe the Scots to have a passion and positive nationalism which can only be best served an an independent nation.

We have a dream.

Replacing the devalued pound with the Euro would be one of the most valuable aspects of EU membership of an independent Scotland.
Don't believe all the agit-prop produced by the gutter press.

The British Institute of International and Comparative Law is stuff full of Oxbridge types with close links to the British government. It is very much part of the British establishment. As such is is a pro-Unionist organisation, and hence opposed to any notion of Scottish independence.

The British Institute of International and Comparative Law can be politically be written off as an anti-Scottish organisation.

Phil C. The dream is a good one and I share it but we are in no shape at the moment to be dictating anything to the EU in terms of memebership. If Scotland is to become independent it should do so through a long gradual process with the gradual passing of powers from London to Edinburgh rather than the cut and run approach that seems to be advocated by many supporters of independence. We need to build ourselves up and gain the neccissary political experience before we take on anything as daunting as independence.

I have had my doubts about independence but if this headline is correct I am all for independence. Scotland should go it alone. The sooner we are out of the EU the better.

Is this supose to scare us in to sicking with union of the treaty and Scotland act.

If the EU won't suport us then we're better off without them.

If they were to suport an independent Scotland then I'm for stying in the EU, I think they have some good polices and benfits as well as negative parts (which would obvousley be need to be renogousated i.e. Fishing) but not if they want us to stay in this negative unhappy union.

Wherryman is confused. The Scots are an ethnic group (which is what I guess you mean by "race"), and there is also, and quite separately, a legally defined Scottish nationality.
The latter is defined as including anyone present in Scotland in 1948, or born there afterwards. That is not however what most people think of when they use the word "Scottish".
Defining membership of the Scottish ethnic group is an interesting anthropological/sociological question, which has as far as I know not really been tackled. Probably, political correctness has been a deterrent to this in recent times.

What unutterable drivel from these academics. The EU is going to keep out Scotland while letting in Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Romanie et al-not to mention England?

I don't think so!

The only real concern of the EU would be if Scotland did not want membership.

Firstly Neil Mitchison is is known to have a strong Lib Dem bias privately.

Constitutionally, Britain is not a unitary state. It is a "dual nation" comprising two countries Scotland and England linked by the terms of an international Treaty - the Treaty of Union.

Both Scotland and England satisfied EEC entry requirements at the time of joining.

If the treaty is repealed both countries become successor states and automatically retain EU membership.

The article reeks of the "Scotsman's" anti-Scottish bias. References to an independent Scotland as "break away" and "go-it-alone" simply reflect the editorial/owner's view that Scotland is a region of Britain rather than a founder member of an inernational partnership. Independence for Scotland necessarily implies independence for England in the same way that that a married couple cannot divorce leaving one partner still married!

This same story appears every few years and is proven untrue only to be repeated when support for independnece shows an increase.

The Mitchison creature should be severly disciplined for interfering in a member state's politics and the "Scotsman" should rename itself the "The Colonial Times".

98. Logician

"So you are in, once in, , and need to negotiate out , not vice versa."

I like it. We were signed up under false pretences and the deceit continues.

We've lost a packet with contributions, propping up the ERM, flogging our gold cheap, not claiming entitlements etc. All so our politicians can run a gravy-train for each other at our expense.

The EU are not likely to let their favourite milk-cow get out of the pasture. They need it to suckle all those calves they got so they could make the farm bigger.

As far as this latest scare story goes, it is obvious spin to put people off voting SNP.

How we, the electorate, fail to see the party politics confidence trick is incredible. Instead of voting for a decent person to represent us in Parliament, we vote for a party which gangs up with the other parties to stitch us up and make a comfortable life for themselves. They then carry it further with the EU, MEPs, Commissioners, jobs for the boys.

Is this really how we want our lives to be run? Don't the Magna Carta, the Bill of Rights, our Parliament, our freedom which our forefathers fought and died for, our childrens' future etc, have any meaning for us at all? I digress, or maybe I don't.

Countries queue up and beg to become part of the EU throwing out long cherished laws that uphold their particular social conventions in order to comply with its membership terms. So I'm struggling to understand why some in Scotland would prefer the country to bail out of the EU while other countries can only see the benefits? Please enlighten me.

What strikes me is that the unionists are inward looking and want to live off the back of a larger neighbour, whilst those for independence are outward looking and want to stand on their own two feet. Pity I can`t vote this year.

#20 ' The United Kingdom of Great Britain and N.I. would remain the nation state '. Surely that would have to become ' The United Kingdom of England, Wales and N.I '. Great Britain includes Scotland.
I'm not too bothered about having to re-negotiate. I'm sure we would come away with better terms than we presently have.

Bill 127.

I think your forefathers would have been delighted with the reasons the Eu was founded, perhaps they would not have needed to have fought and died if it was already in place.

Worry not it is the silly season and a time for the banging of gums and gnashing of teeth.These scenarios cannot be decided till the situation arises. I smell panic in the wind from the South.

come you cowards, what are you scared of? are we going to pathetically behind England for the rest of our exsistance begging for nothing more than scraps or show some courage and some balls to reach out and take what is rightfully ours?
isnt Scotland meant to be one of the feircely patriotic country in the world? the pathetic thing is it is not even technically a country. maybe there will be a few small speed bumps but just think of our ancestors who payed with their lives for our countries freedom. worst case scenario maybe well take a fraction of a pay cut. its a pretty small price to pay, arnt you willing to pay it?To exist as a real country, I certainly am.

one more thing, it would be completely farcical not to mention insulting if Scotland were to be rejected after the EU admits deeply impoverished countries such as Romania and Bulgaria, whos peoples average monthly paychecks are less than our weekly ones.

Use your head.

As much as I dislike labour (Eg A lot) , you honestly want to put a bunch of untried SchoolTeachers from the islands in control of our country and economy based on the simple premise of Independence ?

What majority do the SNP need to gain a referendum on Independence ? I would imagine they need a clear majority.

Dream on. This will not happen.

While basically agreeing with #98 and others of like mind, I still think its important to note that there is a distinction between Great Britain, the United Kingdom and the various nations or states within each. "Great Britain" is the direct result of the 1707 Union and, at least theoretically, consists of two sovereign partners: England and Scotland (Wales having been legally incorporated into the English kingdom for several hundred years). The "United Kingdom" originated in 1800 with the formal Union with Ireland and the current name has only applied since 1927. If the 1707 Union is dissolved, then Great Britain no longer exists. If GB no longer exists, then the UK is also de facto dissolved. Clearly new arrangements would be required all round, as, while I can't claim to have studied the matter, it seems clear that Scotland, England and Northern Ireland could all claim to be part heirs to the UK.

As in most things, you will find as many opinions as there are lawyers and the "truth" would depend upon political pragmatism, which would probably mean a fudge as and when the matter came up. And of course the Commission would want to encourage maintaining the Union, they would hate to have to renegotiate voting, budgets etc all over again.

More scare stories form the unionist press! In the first place we need to gain our independence before we consider allying ourselves with other organisations. We would need to see what advantages and more importantly the disadvantages there would be in joining the EU. Remember it is no longer the Common Market area that we originally joined, but is a political organisation with control centred in France and Germany.

Personally I see no compelling reason to join! An alternative might be to form a Northern European association with the Scandinavian countries with trading links to the EU.
For the Europhiles may I suggest they subscribe to the emails from Daniel Hannan Euro MP, they make very interesting reading as someone writing from inside the European System. I now have grave reservations about Europe.
www.hannan.co.uk

131. Everything you do is a balloon

I would like to think you are right, but when I look at the achievements of the EU, I have cause for doubt.

In any event, it is NATO that has saved our bacon for the last sixty years, not the Franco/German alliance that calls itself the EU.

#134 Its already happened mosts Scots couldn't care less what goes on South of the Border and most dont care about politics, this is probably due to the fact that no matter what we say North of the Border Westminster hold the majority share holding.

What Scotland needs is to rule itself then possibly more Scots might take an interest in their country, as it's not our country at the moment, and we dont make decisions based on what is right for Scots, Westminster does all the thinking and planning for us.

A few observations:

1) First of all, on one of the Scotsman's specific points:

"If Scotland was outside the EU, individuals would lose the ability to take their cases to Europe's highest court and would lose the human-rights protections given by EU membership."

This is abject nonsense. Human rights protections flow from membership of the Council of Europe, of which the European Court of Human Rights is an integral part. These institutions are entirely separate from the EU.

It is generally only the laxest and most ill-informed of journalists which mix the two up.

2) On the wider issue of Scotland's EU (or indeed Council of Europe) membership, clearly it would be for each international institution to come to its own legal conclusion about whether Scotland had indeed seceded or whether the UK had dissolved itself

This issue doesn't scare me though. If Scotland had to reapply, we all know that realistically it would be given fast-track status, and if membership of the euro was a precondition for entry - as it inevitably would be, as it is for all new members - then so much the better.

(Having said that, Sweden is also legally obligated to join the euro, and is getting away without doing so by staying outside of ERM II, so perhaps you should stop with the scaremongering Mr Scotsman.)

If Scotland were to get independence from the rest of the UK. thereby allowing the Scottish Parliament to set interest rates, economic policy etc. why would we want to join the EU who would take over these responsiblities through the Central European Bank.

Is that real Independence or are we in reality transferring powers from Westminster to Brussels.

Surely the implication here is if Scotland which is the richest part of the UK did not get automatic membership, then England and Wales along with Northern Ireland would also not get automatic membership. Scotland is alot richer than many of the present countries of the present EU. The EU without Scotland would effectively force Scotland and most probably Eire into closer ties to the USA. It is only the arrogance of the English that has kept us out of the Euro so that the bankers and other money sharks can make vast sums changing the pound sterling into Euros when we want to go to Europe. Although I live in England I am Welsh and one day I hope the Welsh have the sense to become independant of the English. Go for it Scotland the EU could not do without you, it is only scare tactics by New Labour with the May Elections coming up.

Mini Mitch,

I went back to bed, you were spouting so much drivel.

Anyhoo, you have just proven to all here that it is you that is an idiot.

Now run along or you'll be late for school.

I can hear your mummy shouting on you.

Don't believe these scaremongers. Can't every Scot claim French citizenship anyway? If so, Scotland can just become a part of France and stay in the EU.

England expects every Scot to do his/her duty - and vote SNP

Standard stuff from featies who've lost all the arguments. Mind you, if we have to renegotiate the energy and fisheries policies, we'd be hard pressed to make a bigger mess of it than the UK did!
Worst case - are we really scared of renegotiating to make sure we get a better deal??
Soon we'll be getting the MI5 security alerts about how a nationalist in 1832 looked askance at a Tory.
And of course, how the precise angle of the border means we'll lose up to 90% of our oilfields (wrong, incidentally).
Bring it on, chaps, the more you panic the better we like it.
We're going to win, and this drivel just helps us more.

The British Institute of International and Comparative Law is funded by the UK government, namely the Foreign Office and the Department of Constitutional Affairs, which is headed by Lord Falconer the Lord Chancellor.

Without such government funding this organisation could not exist.

#84

Thanks for the insult.

People like you need to see how you project yourself to others. Negative attitudes are the one of the main reasons Labour and the Unionist parties are polling so badly in Scotland.

It's insane to think our nation wouldn't be able to stand on its own two feet.

And yes devolution is a disaster, that's why more and more people are turning towards the idea of independence.

please god give us a sign.

#144

Soon we'll be getting the MI5 security alerts about how a nationalist in 1832 looked askance at a Tory.

Better watch we're not seen as anti-english either because that's what everyone thinks if you vote SNP.
Numpties.

First things first ..

Let's get the SNP into Holyrood as the largest party - get Alex Salmond as First Minister and deal witrh everything else after that.

Europe will be gagging for an Independent Scotland to join - with all the NO votes for more Euro decision-making etc .. Europe needs a much support as it can get.

IT'S TIME!

www.dont-vote-labour.co.uk

"Scottish Natiionalists" just cant stop being anti-English - its their only passion.

151-big g
that must have realy racked your brain

146.

Brian , devolution has been a disaster, what makes you think we should give even MORE power to a scottish parliament?

Scotsman....................the North Britisher more like,this "newspaper" bias gets worse by the day!

#151

I am a nationalist, I do not hide the fact.

My missus is England born.

Yup, I just can't stop disliking those pesky English.

Would the EU really want to risk losing access to the largest commercial fishing area it has?
Would it want to risk losing the largest oil supply it has contained within it?
Really why should we worry or care.
This is about Scotland not the EU.
We have the largest natural resources of any EU member so why worry. We can make a go of it in or out of the EU.
Billy from Germany said it best when he suggested our future lies with trading with China and England not the other parts of the EU.

#152

Na - this simple fact was quickly identified and processed.

# 127 iainruadh - but the existing EU treaties are between the sovereign UK and the other sovereign member states, and Scotland and England are not separate High Contracting Parties. See:

http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/pri/en/oj/dat/2002/c_325/c_3...

"HIS MAJESTY THE KING OF THE BELGIANS, HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN OF DENMARK, THE PRESIDENT OF THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF GERMANY .... HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN OF THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND"
.....

"HAVE DECIDED to establish a European Union and to this end have designated as their plenipotentiaries"
......

"WHO, having exchanged their full powers, found in good and due form, have agreed as follows."

There would have to be a new treaty, which started something like:

"HIS MAJESTY THE KING OF THE BELGIANS, HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN OF DENMARK, THE PRESIDENT OF THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF GERMANY .... HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN OF SCOTLAND .... HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN OF THE UNITED KINGDOM OF ENGLAND, WALES AND NORTHERN IRELAND"

or possibly

"HIS MAJESTY THE KING OF THE BELGIANS, HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN OF DENMARK, THE PRESIDENT OF THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF GERMANY .... THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SCOTLAND .... HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN OF THE UNITED KINGDOM OF ENGLAND, WALES AND NORTHERN IRELAND"

That new treaty would have to be negotiated, signed and ratified by all the High Contracting Parties. There's no doubt at all that the other EU member states would want to keep the parts of the UK within the EU, and at present there's no reason to suppose that the political elites in either part would decide against staying in the EU. But on the other hand it's hard to believe that the more integrationist countries would turn down the opportunity to extract a few concessions during the negotiations, the most

Sometimes I despair about the lengths people will go to when they seek to keep Scotland down.

Common sense, something in major short supply amongst our unionist community makes this type of scaremongering so pathetic that it only results in more people supporting independence as their intelligence tells them that

a. any change in the EU needs discussion therefore it is NOT a news story that someone might like to talk to Scotland about changes in status after Independence (even before).

b. Scotland would find it no problem to remain a member as we have no natural enemies and are the richest country in the EU in terms of natural energy resources.

c. Scare stories about losing benefits from Europe such as Regional assistance would only apply if Scotland was going to be well off. This sits uncomfortably with Unionist stories of Scotland being an economic basket case...come on unionists let's see some consistency on the scaremongering front!

d. The Scotsman is becoming increasingly pathetic in its attempts to scaremonger and will itself become an economic basket case in the not to distant future if it carries on like this.

157 big g
if you had half a brain then you would know that your comment at 151 is rubbish,i think your in a bad mood and looking for a fight.

#155

It must really irk you that that she is in the land of your fathers by right of conquest. Still I'm sure you will find it in your heart to hide her in your cellar come the glorious revolution.

I do admire The Scotsman for continuing with good grace to host a very entertaining and thought-provoking website that contains so many insults against it !

one question if scotland costs so much to subsidise why do they not let scotland go independent or is it that we have been feed lies for the last thirty odd years.it may be time then if labour want this to go away then give the scottish people all the facts to not hide them.

Scotspartiot. There is a real argument to be had over the merits of leaving the union but unfortunately it is a largely one sided argument with Unionists looking for facts and form where as the independence movement mainly just spouts rhetoric about how we will be better without England based on their idea of England bad Scotland good. I have no firm views on the issue of independence and I am willing to be convinced by the SNP but I just feel that the risks of backing a party who have never been in power when the stakes are so high are just too much. If the SNP prove they can govern then lets go for it but otherwise we are merely walking blindly into the abyss.

You do have to wonder :-

a) Newpapers are in the business of selling Newspapers

b) there are no pro-independence newspapers

c) ... There are not enough pro-independence punters

d) There will not be an SNP led government.

Let's face it - why else do English folk come on here and bash the nationalists?

1. They are terrified of being a 'wee' country called England-shire

2. They are as racist as it comes and don't think the Scots should have their freedom from their masters!

If the EU wants Scotland to do a Norway and stay outside the EU then that will not cause too many problems to any of us really will it?

If only Scottish MP's and Scottish members of the Executive at Westminster weren't so anti Scottish.

An Independant Scotland will cost all of us Scots a lot of money If Not Why is Engand subsidising us now as the Bartlet Formlae proves
Come on do some calculations and not rely on rhetroric .
We the UK has to sell goods to the rest of the world
There are 500,000,000 potential customers in the EU
What good has the Scottish Parliament done for the Scottish people since its inception, come on somebody tell me and give me a good laugh.

My God Wherryman your a genius, youve got it in one.

If only our Scottish MPs werent so Pro British we wouldn't feellike we are being slapped in the puss for daring to be Scottish.

#167

Not so fast - do you know how much tax the Norwegian's have to pay - a pint of beer costs them £7.00. They also have sizable oil and gas deposits, we do not. Norway is also locked up in a number of trade disputes and have punitive levy's to pay on some exports to the EU as a result.

66. JEFF, DUNDEE
"Let's face it - why else do English folk come on here and bash the nationalists? ....etc"

The only nationalists I've ever bashed are the backward-looking resentful Braveheart sloganeers, who probably wouldn't be particularly useful once independence had been attained. Those who argue logically, proudly and with a forward vision for an independent Scotland have my every respect.

Re your comment about us English not thinking that Scots should have their freedom from their masters, the question hasn't arisen in my case as my wife has not so far asked for a divorce.

173

Sorry, that should read 166, not 66

#174 thats because your wife hasn't met me yet.

Buried at the foot of the main article is an interesting opinion from the academic and author T.C. Smout, Historiographer Royal for Scotland? Christopher Smout, to the best of my knowledge, is an eminent English historian who has been Professor of History at St Andrews University for many years and the author of two very successful anthologies of the Scottish People. Mr. Smout has stuck his neck out and claims Scotland could easily flourish outwith the United Kingdom? Many might suggest that he has gone 'native' but who better to
give an opinion on this matter? As an Englishman, I suspect he knows full well that England would not miss Scotland's secession? Lachie Todd

# 69 Harriet - "The Vienna Convention on Successor States applies."

Do you know how many states, and which, have ratified that Convention?

According to this:

http://untreaty.un.org/ENGLISH/bible/englishinternetbible...

it took 18 years to get the necessary 15 ratifications for the Convention to come into force - ie to come into force for those states which have ratified it, not for every state in the world. The UK is not even a signatory, and nor are 20 of the other 26 EU member states.

What about Montenegro, 600,000 proud people, took there independence last year and within a week reconised and accepted by the EU, the UN and internationaly. So Mr Scotsman you are at it, digging the dirt as usual, and it just blows up in your face.

No.9 is right Scotland need to Vote for the SNP in May. The UK Party will try and do anything to keep scotland in this UK. Scotland needs to be free. Could Scotland cope without going into EU? I think Yes but that is for a a other day. Get out of the union first then see see. One step at a time.

#173

Nothing wrong with a slogan :-)

I like Peter's observation "SNP will gain votes in May not because of their pledge of a referendum on independence but because Scots are sick to the back teeth with Labour." It brings a bit of perspective to the debate when we are reminded that some parties gain, not through the credibility of their policies, but due to the lack of popularity of the incumbant.

So will some voters embrace the SNP with the same enthusiasm that some German's embraced Hitler - namely, that they weren't fussed about the patriotic breast-beating and anti-semitism that went with him but they weren't too impressed with their existing government? Hmmm.

#175
She drools wistfully, then sheds bitter tears at the realisation that this is a lust that can never be requited.

Big G @172

Fair point but if it's that bad, why do they (Norway) remain independant from the EU and also have a very strong economy?

I am no fan of the European Union as I have to deal with this massive beurocracy on a daily basis, but this is another example of the muddled thinking and lack of planning by the leadership of the SNP and does not bode well for Scotland if these incompetents ever gain power.

Dear Scotsman,
You should apply a simple test before allowing people to post on here. Maybe a simple question would do like.....

Are you a F*cki*g Idiot?

Debate as far as I remember is meant to be constructive. Not just unsubstantiated drivel.

Then again the more balloons in here I suppose keeps them off the streets.

Anyone who says people who swear are unintelligent are usually the ones who are really f*cki*n stupid.

Messalina (too much to lose on an International scale) like dead Scottish soldiers fighting an illegal war. F*ck*ng wake up.

To the rest opposed to independence….All I see from you is oh it might be a little bit hard with the transition and all and will I really be better off (selfish b*st*rds).

Ask yourself a simple question: Why would ANYONE who feels they are GIVING FAR MORE to Scotland than they get back FIGHT so hard to retain this BURDEN?

Out of the goodness of their heart? No the issues and repercussions to England after independence is far worse than could be imagined.

I want independence for the future generations not myself. Yes we will struggle for a wee while onlt to sort through the sh*t but WE DON’T HAVE TO PICK UP A GUN TO GET IT. Just tick a box.

It's grossly unfair. Scotland should remain an EU member and we English should be chucked out.

#184

Sedov - who do you suggest people vote for if not the SNP?

Who are you voting for?

Where do you live?

You may take our wives, but we will never take your Morris Dancing..

I recall Neil Mitchison as a Labour candidate in the Highlands and Islands who spectacularly failed to make any impact when he stood for the European Parliament some years ago. Now he is an EU representative for Scotland. It would seem that if you have the connections there is always a sinecure around for the Kinnocks, Mandelsons etc of this world.
Amazing how these people end up with the placemen jobs and then come up with the Unionist propaganda! Lord Foulkes and Lord Falconer take a bow.
You can tell that they are really scared as their scare stories get sillier day by day. Can you imagine how hysterical they will be by May. Should Tony stay or should he cash in his chips and start making serious money? Is Gordon an asset or a liability? Would anyone in the Scottish Executive be asked to participate in Big Brother or I'm a Celebrity?

# Jeff, more questions thans answers -just like the SNP, of whom you should be asking plenty of questions.

HarryArgyll , the demographic as far as I can see in scotland is basically

A) Work shy n'er do wells who are happy with the status quo , or anything that allows them to do their humdurm jobs , support some miserable football team, drink themselves silly and take a week in Spain every year in a scotland top.
B) Selfish B*stards like myself who obviously like to keep an eye on our own money and country and do not want to turn it over to a bunch of numptie Mps from the Hlighlands or West Lothian (the latter has already happened).

I dont think we are selfish at all in Promoting a Union that has been good for the Majority for the last 300 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegro#International_rec...

They said if you want to find a culprit you look for who benefits from the action the most. So the whisper this week that the only winners from the set up on Tommy Sheriden, and seemingly the SSP, have been the SNP. The case against Sheriden was always going to fall apart due to him being a none drinker, so it is unlikely his his own party at the time would make such a mistake, especially when getting off he was always going to suspect some one in the party and publicly attack. The Labour party, when the thing got into the paper was well ahead in the polls, and the people voting for the SSP were old Labour, haters of new Labour and wouldn't move back. The same people hate the LibDems as they still blame the Liberals for the 1970s. But with the SNP, when the SSP lost out their poll share increased, the extra votes they are likely to get will unseat many Labour MSPs. Also disgruntled Labour anti-nuclear supporters will be put off by the SSP because of the fighting and go for the SNP because they are also anti-nuclear. This is only a whisper, but I am sure you would agree it has legs.

Everything you do is a balloon#191 Yes apart from the last thirty years.

#183

There is serious debate going on in Norway about EU membership - however, the biggest obsticle is not the concept of membership but being able to comply with state aid restictions -subsidy and Government intervention - with respect to their economy. Yes Norway is a small country with a buoyant economy. However that buoyancy is solely achieved through oil and gas revinue (which will run out in 80 -90 years time. The Norwegian government is desperately looking for alternatives and investing huge sums in fisheries and aquaculture - they have little else.

I am pro-Independance but the response of some people today reminds me of a guy who has suddenly been jilted by a girlfriend he thought was going to marry him.
Who needs the EU?
The positives stack up without the EU and membership would take at most, a couple of years to re-negotiate if an Independent Scotland thought it was beneficial to be a member.
One thing I do find puzzling is the response to the idea that the rump of the UK would remain in the EU even if Scotland gained Independance.
It might need to change its name but the 'UK' would still be composed of England, Wales and Northern Ireland - 55 million people!
Unless England became independent itself, it seems obvious to me that losing 5 million Scots would still leave the 'UK' as the de-facto EU state it was before.
The loss of Scotland - its population, GDP, land mass etc would mean very little to the continental EU countries.
I'm totally for Independance but let's not lose perspective as to the relative importance of Scotland to the EU.

191.

A) Refers broadly to Labour supporters and the reason the SNP will never get into power.

Think I may have just defeated my own argument..

Peter #194 The SNP need to be in a full term for Scotland to trust they can deliver without braking the countries back.

Same old same old. A few comments- the Nats will use every opportunity to stir it up between the English and Scots to suit their own ends. There is no monolithic opinion either side of the border. I would imagine that few THINKING people in these islands FULLY acquainted with the facts and probable consequences of the self destruction of the United Kingdom would support such an insane venture. Comparisons with former Yugoslav states such as Montenegro are ludicrous. The former Yugoslavia was shattered by a bloody and bitter war in a state that was held together by a repressive communist regime. The splintering of eastern europe into tribal fiefdoms is a retrograde step for humanity. What is needed is a careful restructuring of the Union and an education campaign. Scots can-in fact do in many respects-have the best of both worlds-be a great "wee country" as part of one of the worlds great BIG countries. Its NOT time and never should be!

Quote

"Mr Happold warned that Scotland would almost certainly lose its share of the shrinking UK budget rebate, "

I am led to believe that the rebate the U.K.receives is about a third of what it actually contributes, and in the main is squandered on various white elephants and political edifices.

This is not economic sense, surely paying in nothing - as Ireland does - and getting a huge rebate is much better financially, and for the avoidance of doubt, as Mr Happold and his followers are so convinced that Scotland is such a poor country - our rebate should be huge.

Mr Happold cannot have it both ways!

Geoff#200 There will be a time, but it shouldn't be this time round.

Arthur C you make a great case for getting rid of you personally metaphorically speaking)and people who think like you.

we do not hate, we tolerate and always have done.
this story and your comments are what will get Scotland independence on election day plus 100.

I wonder how much more drivel will come out of the mouths of the Labour party in the next 5 months? we could probably fill a skip!!!!!

Citylocal Fife,#201 Europe are trying to do away with rebates, so are unlikely to start new ones to countries who wouldn't need them having oil fields.

#200 Geoff what side of the bus do you sit on?

weeshooie#204 Like you said we tolerate, and are still doing so. When we don't we have a tendancy to jump in before looking, especially when the English are involved. Remember the Darien disaster, this was the real reason for our chains we were fitted in 1707, until we learn to read the signs better we are likely to jump into independence before we are really ready, even though I have been waiting all of my life.

Matthews Happold's claim that "the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland would remain the nation state" appears a non-starter. The UK was created as a union of two realms, Scotland and England (where for these purposes the latter also includes its annexed territory of Wales and its overseas dominion in Ireland).

If one party leaves a union that contains only two parties, then that union ceases to exist. To suggest otherwise is like saying you can have a marriage of only one person, after one has divorced the other. If Scotland places its governance back on a normal basis, i.e. it leaves the UK, then ipso facto the UK ceases to exist entirely.

Same old indeed, as soon as an argument against the Nationalists case is made it's ALWAYS scaremongering and all sorts of poison is spewed out by a party who just cannot take being challenged over anything. Oh well, when it happens and they suffer the consequences, I'll be the one laughing saying "I told you so". Yes, I know, I'll prob get my head whacked off by a claymore-wielding, saltire tattooed Nat for saying such a thing, but I don't care.

#190 SEDOV

Why won't you say who people should vote for if not the SNP?

Are you ashamed of the party you support?

Labour by any chance?

It is distressing that there are still people like the so called "experts" Happold and Bartels who think Scotland is a "region" of the UK. When this red herring was raised 20 years ago, real legal experts stated quite clearly that as Scotland and England are distinct nations in a treaty relationship that predated accession to the EU, its repeal would leave both nations as "successor states" and, hence, both members of the EU. There is no dubiety about this.

What England, Wales and NI want to call themselves after repeal of the Union is up to them. They cannot sensibly use the term Great Britain, however, as this refers to the whole island. Equally, they could no longer use the Butcher's Bluidie Apron as their flag.

The United Kingdom bit refers to the Union of the Crowns and it is worth remembering that both nations were independent states for more than a hundred years after this came into force in 1603. It, again, would be nonsensical for England Wales and NI to use the UK in their title either as neither Wales not NI have a monarchy to unite with the English one.

How about "The Kingdom of Southern Britain and Northern Ireland" or just "Greater England" which is probably more accurate.

I bet some of the people complaining about pro-union propaganda, nonsense and claptrap would be perfectly happy with nationalist propaganda, claptrap and nonsense, however flimsy its basis.

THIS HAS OBVIOUSLY STIRRED UP A HORNETS NEST WHICH , HOPEFULLY WILL EXPOSE THE SPINNERS AND THE " MA FAITHER VOTED LABOUR BRIGADE" AS NUMPTIES.
INCIDENTALLY, SUGGEST YOU LOOK OUT A P45 FOR YOUR SO CALLED POLITICAL EDITOR.
I DON'T BUY THE SCOTSMAN ANYMORE, WHY NOT CHANGE YOUR NAME TO THE WESTMINSTERMAN

185. HarryArgyll:
"Dear Scotsman,
You should apply a simple test before allowing people to post on here. Maybe a simple question would do like..... Are you a @*%^# Idiot?"

Congratulations Harry.
You qualified, like the rest of us.
:)

Without doubt the less than free and easy succession to the EU should be recognised as a potential banana skin by the SNP and addressed and refuted logically rather than being dismissed as pro-Unionist propoganda.
The best way for the SNP to deal with this is to say yes, we have identified this as a risk and here is our mitigation strategy. The SNP can then also address the opportunity that they may see of going it completely alone (as some of the pro-Nationalist posts suggest), with no EU funding, and informing us as to how this might impact their fiscal foecasts.
The electorate can then make an informed decision.

SNP will pick up a lot of votes this year, no doubt about it. They will not however secure a majority in the Scottish Executive and so will probably have to form a coalition with one of the other parties. Due to irreconciliable differences with the tories and Labour this presumably leaves the Lib-Dems, the Green Party and or SSP - possiblly them all. However, voting out the incumbent dross doesn't actually mean that the people of Scotland want independence and the referendum could well deliver a strong rebuff to the governing party presumtive.
Also, the timing of independence, as Peter rightfully states could take a long time to come to fruition. If everything went in the SNP's favour and they get a clear majority in SE then their referendum delivers their wants i.e. a yes vote for independence, is a 5 year transition period long enough to agree the territorial waters, sort the EU ramifications, get some form of coherent foreign policy in place, commence the divestment of trident, draft a constitution, prepare for a currency change and all the other chores that will be necessary? I don't know, however, I would ask that some of the informed Nats comment on the proposes transition plan and how these issues will be/already have been addressed.

194# Peter - I agree that my Hitler analogy contained a jibe but the point is that he was voted in through democratic processes by the electorate. My main point is that spectacular gains in voting does not necessarily mean spectacular belief in incredible promises made by a party but disaffection with the status quo.

I am pro-independence in some respects but my ambivalence has been caused by scepticism over some of the benefits claimed for it and the amnesia about subsidies and the positive contribution of the union and the EU.

I don't believe that the brightest and best leave Scotland because of the heavy hand of an English government but because they are economic migrants and I'm not sure whether a fully independent Scotland will offer them improved prospects.

Glasgow's mini economic boom has proved that good jobs attract workers from outside it - they remain unfilled by locals through their low qualifications and skills. The lower paid jobs frequently attract workers from the EU accession countries who don't experience the same barriers as those dependent on long-term state benefits.

How can an independent Scotland benefit the under-class? Or will it aggravate it? If EU migrants can take advantage of the economic situation in Scotland over the economically inactive Scots of working age, how can this be reversed?

As one who admires the Scots I think you have all gone bonkers. What are you today but 7 million Gordon Browns ? Socialist and mean-minded; happy to rob your fellow citizens and spend their money; and miserable and stupid!
What can Scotland possibly gain by independence? You run England now, and impose your hopeless socialism on the whole island- and on fifty million English and Welsh who keep you! Why not just shut up and enjoy the ride ? And- too much to ask ?- smile sometimes!
If you leave, it would probably be the best thing that could possibly happen for England. You would have to be rescued, starving and grateful!!! ? after a year or two. We could then take you back, rearrange the constitution so that you imbeciles don't ruin everything again- and Scotland would begin to flourish, and England would continue to do so.

216. In fact Hitler was not voted in democratically. His party never got a majority.

217 Switzwerland calling Scotland bonkers That sounds Cuckoo to me

#210 - for goodness sake Jeff, have you any brains at all - I have promoted the john4 leader campaign on many previous posts including above. John McDonnel is Labour who has a socialist alternative programme for Labour. Now John knows that even if he did gain the 40 MP's support needed to stand against Brown that he would still lose. But the fightback against New Labour has already started and although there is a long way to go - the motto is "a better world is possible" - Now you will not agree with this as you have nailed your colours to the nationalist cause - but that is my cause - do I make myself clear at last? PS will you stop being so personal in your posts, there is no need for it.

It's 5 million Gordon browns actually. montefiore, if you want to deride us, get the facts correct first.

Post 215. The SNP website says this

http://www.snp.org/independence/questions/europeandthewor...

Scotland is already in the European Union and this will remain the case after Independence.

Article 34 of the 1978 Convention on Succession of States in respect of Treaties says:

"Any treaty in force at the date of succession of states [i.e. Independence] in respect of the entire territory of the predecessor state continues in force in respect of each successor state so formed."

An example worth noting is that of Greenland. When Greenland gained more autonomy from Denmark in 1979, it had to negotiate to be allowed out of the EU.

The 1992 Maastricht Treaty has already conferred on Scots the status of European citizens and the EU will have no more reason to reject an independent Scotland than to reject the independent remainder of the UK.

For the past two decades the overwhelming weight of legal and political opinion has stated that an independent Scotland would inherit EU member ship on exactly the same terms as the rest of the UK. The SNP has consulted widely throughout the EU and we are confident that an independent Scotland would not only remain in the EU as a full member, but would be welcome as such.

Emile Noêl, former Secretary General of the European Commission, has said:

"Scottish Independence would create two new member states out of one. They would have equal status with each other and the other 11 states. The remainder of the United Kingdom would not be in a more powerful position than Scotland."

Eamonn Gallagher, Former Director General of the European Commission and European Community Ambassador to the United Nations backed this view: "In my view, there could be no sustainable legal or political objection to separate Scottish membership of the European Community."

"THE SNP's case for independence was dealt a damaging blow last night when the European Commission and senior academics challenged the Nationalists' core assumption - that an independent Scotland would automatically become a member of the European Union. "

I wouldn't moan about this if I were you, I've always thought the SNP line - Independence in the EU - as a total oxymoron.

You have your own parliament, you get to trounce the NuLab liars in May, you have a chance to be independent AND you get thrown out of the EU if everything goes to plan.

You lucky, lucky barstewards!

181 how desperate are you Bluey? Don't you know the old adage the first person to call their opponents Nazis has lost the argument.

Unless of course they actually ARE Nazis which the SNP patently are not being much less xenophobic and downright racist than today's Labour Party.

224 Sa,me applies to England

Same Applies to England

Pernickity - if you want to be pernickity that would be the Scottish Labour Party wouldnt it ?

#226 I hope so Eric.
The EU controls the British Govt puppet and I would dearly like to cut the strings of this undemocratic, corrupt monster.

229 True Its like a Blood sucking leech isnt it ,A monkey on all our backs.

#22 Denise ... it would appear that it is you that is lacking in mental capacity ...

Being excluded from the European Union is almost attractive enough to make one stupid enough to vote for Scotland to secede from this glorious Union of ours ... however, reality bites and lets face it - who wants a small nation state, with no favour or influence outside of the leisure areas of golf and whisky (possibly fishing and shooting in a smaller way) ... Scotland needs to pick up its game further, it already engages at senior levels in business and politics as representatives of the Scottish nation state within the Union - this is good, but if the bickering can be stopped, our energies would be further enhanced and improved - making things better for everyone in the Union (isn't that what these alliances are all about!?).

Strange You never hear the English talking about The Union,mmm

Re 218. Although the Nazis did not get an absolute majority in 1932, Hitler got his enabling powers by a huge majority in the Reichstag, since most of the other parties, excluding those of the Socialist tendency, voted freely in his favour.

Just ignore these reports and vote SNP in May and for independence in a referendum. That's what you want and want England wants. It's the best for us all.

We can then decide on full English independence with an English Parliament. It's a pity that this won't all happen before Brown is imposed on us as PM.

#221 - you are being a little sensitive aren't you?

Where do I get 'so personal' with you?

Also, if I dinnae mind saying "have you any brains at all" ... does this not class as being a tad 'personal'

In any case - you must be clueless if you vote for any Labour socialist numpty, including John McDonnell - if he believes in integrity he should resign from the most corrupt party in the UK - The Labour Party.

#235

I feel confident Scotland will give Labnour a huge kick in the erse on May 3rd!

We could be good neighbours as independent countries.

www.dont-vote-labour.co.uk

By the way Sedov - I assume you will vote Labour then as you support a Labour MP?

Also, do you live in Scotland or England?

Eric #89 writes "Blackpool & Fylde has Highest Amount of Single parents on benefits in UK." What's your point with regard to this thread? Of family households who are tenants of the Glasgow Housing Assocation, 66% are headed by a single parent and the majority of their tenants receive Housing Benefit. I would love to understand and believe in any proposed financial solution that arises through Independence, with or without the EU behind it, which will help them become economically active.

#217
As an admirer of the scots, your post is dripping with resentment which indicates totally the opposite.

Roll on May, and Step one - Elect an SNP administration.

Only then will we be in a position to negotiate with the various bodies.

Perhaps an 'Alliance of the North' with Norway if the EU wont have us ?

My question is. Is there no end to the procession of placemen and ragmen that the Scotman will parade on a daily basis beween now an then?

(I think I know the asnswer)

# 223 Pernickity -

"Post 215. The SNP website says this

http://www.snp.org/independence/questions/europeandthewor...

Scotland is already in the European Union and this will remain the case after Independence.

Article 34 of the 1978 Convention on Succession of States in respect of Treaties says:

"Any treaty in force at the date of succession of states [i.e. Independence] in respect of the entire territory of the predecessor state continues in force in respect of each successor state so formed."

Except that only 21 states in the whole world have ratified that Convention and agreed to be bound by it, the UK and 20 other EU member states are not even signatories, and so basically it's irrelevant.

http://untreaty.un.org/ENGLISH/bible/englishinternetbible...

#223. Pernickity / 1:01pm 8 Jan 2007

Spot on. The Scotsman needs to stop bad journalism. Ask somebody in the EU? Stop playing fiddle to the Labour Party.This sort of stuff you get in the Daily Record. By own means criticise the SNP and other politcal parties, but do it in an intellectual way and treat the reader with respect.

I can see how Scotland will be turned away because of energy supplies and fishing. Not to mention the majority of Scots who voted in favour of the EU. Scotland needs to be independent to argue it's case within Europe and the World.

I repeat when the USSR (a collection of republics) broke up, Russia didn't have to reapply to take over the USSR's seat on the Security Council as it was seen as the successor of the USSR. In the event of Scottish independence, rump UK will inherit the current UK's rights within the EU. (and probably all its assets, armed forces, embassies etc). It will not need to reapply but Scotland will have to do so probably because it is a new 'legal entity' (though I am not a constitutional lawyer like the people directly quoted in the article). Think about it. Nobody knows anything about an independent Scotland but the UK is already up and running. It stands to reason. I am sure in the long run Scotland would be able to join the EU but it is definitely not going to be as straight forward as Mr Salmond claims. Don't bet on French help either. They will be worried about setting a precendent for Britanny and Corsica). Also, don't expect preferential treatment from the English post-independence, it won't be handing out goodies to Scotland like the UK government does and an English government would be run by Norman Tebbitt clones.

#241

Moron

Incidentally I'm amazed that anyone believes that Scotland benefits from EU membership because it gets "EU money". As far as I'm aware, there's no part of the UK which gets back more "EU money" than the extra taxes paid by its residents to help fund the UK's contribution to the EU budget.

#245 Royster

Why is it that anybody who writes 'stands to reason' looks very silly.

Alf Garnett used to say that all the time.

Expect your next post will have 'silly old moo' in it.

Still that would be preferable to the rubbish that is post 245!

#239 - Jeff - can you read? - what does the location say? - I will probably vote Labour as the alternatives are to bad to contemplate, eg the SNP have no programme to challenge the status quo. If I am not happy with the Labour manifesto and choice of candidates, ie if it is the same old garbage as before, I will reluctantly abstain. I believe in old adage - better to fight within the pen than to crow outside it which is what McDonnel is trying to do and as the SNP have shown themselves to be more on the side of the rich rather than a poor guy like me I would rather take my chances with the devil I know.

Together SCotland and China will be one billion and five million people strong!!!

och, who cares about global presence ? New Zealand seems to do quite well, not dissimiliar in population, equally beautiful, their sheep - Scotlands whisky, ok the weather might be better there but it might be quite nice just getting on with things without having to flash your manhood round the world stage....

all we want is to being able to improve our country but to that we need total fiscal control which means being able to cut taxes or raise taxes to help business and to stop them moving to other countries at the moment we have to do what westminster says and it is not in the best interests of Scotland only way at this moment it time is independence because no matter what they will not give it because we will be a better attraction for business that england. and i am feed up being told because i believe in independence i am a fool and idiot. give the Scottish parliament full powers and it might kill the call for it.

In 30 years of membership of the EU

1. There has not ben a single year in which UK exports to the EU have exceeded imports from the EU.

2. There has not been a single year in which UK grants from EU have exceeded our payments to the EU.

3. French agrigulture is almost entirely reliant on payments made into the CAP by Germany and the UK.

4. If Scotland breaks away from the EU, then control of Scottish fisheries and Scottish oil revert to Scottish ownership.

If anybody threatens that the EU might forego any of these benefits, they must be in the pay of the EU, members of the Labour party, or French. Because IT AINT GOING TO HAPPEN.

Getting out of the EU would be one of the greatest potential benefits of Scottish independance, only the EU and the Labour party say that they believe otherwise.

#249
You'll be as well voting Tory as New Labour are already that in all but name !
Blair does for Labour in Scotland...as Thatcher did for the Tories....now theres an interesting legacy.....

So go through all that trouble to have independence, and Then become a vassel state in the European Union also known as the United States of Europe.

Why do I see that as an excercize in Futility. IF you want indepnendence go for it, If you want to be part of a bigger happy controlling federal Bureacracy remain part of the UK, at least then you can use your own Semi legal currency,

I mean heck You'd have more Rights as a State in the United States here in America then a sovregin nation in the EU

Thank you Sedov ....

Nice to know what colour I am talking to.

I HATE Labour with a passion - everything they do is an embarassment, criminal, lies or worse.

233. eric
"Strange You never hear the English talking about The Union,mmm".

Maybe because Union is the status quo (or was until devolution got us noble English thinking about the topic).

The onus is therefore on Scottish independenistas to persuade their own countrymen to change the status quo, rather than the English to argue in its defence. After all, we're not getting the opportunity to vote about it in May.

Though I happen to be personally interested in the subject, it's not exactly a burning issue on peoples' lips down here. We're too busy wondering about how to beat other nations at cricket.

#248. Very witty Jeff. Don't you think there might be a modicum of reason in what I am saying? How well disposed are current EU states going to be towards Scottish independence as it will certainly set a precedence and encourage other separatist parties in Europe? Here is quick break-down of EU countries with separatist problems (asterisks denote major problems): France (Britanny, Corsica*, Basque Country*), Belgium (Flanders*), Italy (Northern League*), Finland (Aland Islands and large Swedish population), Sweden (Lapps), Romania (Hungarians*), Czech Republic (Roma, Sudeten Germans right of return) and Slovakia (Roma), Spain (Basques*, Catalonia*), Poland (Germans), Lithuania (Russians), Latvia (Russians*), Estonia (Russians). The chance of Scotland's EU application being vetoed by another state is not remote though I believe it would be allowed in.

256# Well an independent Scotland can decide whether it wants to stay or leave. Thats another matter. This story is just scaremongering. Honestly, Scotland would not be turned away from joining the EU.

254. Bicknoller,

Well said. An independent Scotland should only join (or stay in) the EU if the CAP is scrapped. It has no economic basis behind it, it takes up massive amounts of the EU budget, it creates huge supply surpluses and therefore waste plus it means higher prices for the consumer. And for the more righteous of us it could be argued that it aids poverty around the world as the market is artificially set to make sure their producers cannot export to Europe.

To be honest I don't think a few farmers in France and Italy are worth it.

#245 Royster - You're fighting a losing battle, please accept that the Scots deserve their destiny as an independent state, as do the English, Welsh & N.Irish.
I am English, I used to be an Unionist up into a few years ago when I saw that that devolution (which I supported) has lead to a democratic deficit for England. NuLabs answer is to either ignore it or... obey their EU masters and split us up into regions.
I want us out of the British & European Unions and if Scotland is evicted, then good for you! I,m sure an independent England & Scotland will be the best of friendly trading partners.
BTW the way, We're not all leather clad Norman Tebbits a la Spitting Image!

It is nonsense to suggest that acceptance of the Euro could be made a condition of acceptance of Scottish membership of the EU. This condition has not been imposed on any of the other new additions to the EU, either the ten countires which joined in 2004 or the two (Romania and Bulgaria) which joined this month. So far, of the twelve new members, only Slovenia has decided to opt for the Euro; and no pressure has been put on any of the other 11 countries to accept the common currency.

That is not to say the an independent Scotland would not be well advised to join the common currency.

Now, now, lassies, let's behave now!
Rabbie said it "....that man to man the world oe'er shall brithers be for a' that.."
Equally as important, we will have to decide who is going to be King. Wull it be Sean Connery or Vladamir Romanov?

Anndra#207, the Darian project would have had every chance of succeeding if only a certain
King William of Orange had not been so anti Scottish. He refused to let the expedition raise money on the London Stock Market, refused to let any English company sell them equipment. He even went so far as to ban all English ships or colonies from giving any assistance(including humanitarian and medical) . Because of these hate filled obsticals,
the expedition was practically doomed to failure and resulted in the deaths of Scottish men women and children. Funnily enough I believe this King is still very popular among some Scots.

Anndra#207, the Darian project would have had every chance of succeeding if only a certain
King William of Orange had not been so anti Scottish. He refused to let the expedition raise money on the London Stock Market, refused to let any English company sell them equipment. He even went so far as to ban all English ships or colonies from giving any assistance(including humanitarian and medical) . Because of these hate filled obsticals,
the expedition was practically doomed to failure and resulted in the deaths of Scottish men women and children. Funnily enough I believe this King is still very popular among some Scots.

#259 Royster

virtually all of the REGIONS you mention were never countries in their own right with Heads of State previously.

Scotland = COUNTRY

it wont be Sean Connery - he'd have to come home and pay some tax

#258. Howzat?
You may be able to beat Scotland at cricket...should we meet in the World Cup final this year!?!?!

#257 JEFF
Agreed...you only have to look at the parade of Labour numpties and non-entities returned from our neck of the woods.
They have held Dundee in their death grip for decades now, and have presided over decline and decay.
Nothing it seem will drive them from power locally, as they have allied themselves with the Libs and the Tories to keep the trappings of power. Meanwhile the largest party the SNP remains in the cold.
Labour are what is wrong with Scotland.
If Scotland PLC is as bankrupt as they claim, then they are guilty of creating this situtation. Time to throw them OUT!

"A man will walk into hell with both eyes open, but even the devil can't fool a dog"......(especially a bulldog.)

The UK didn't exist until 1707 and the Treaty of Union between Scotland and England. This was an international treaty ratified in separate Acts of both Scottish and English parliaments effectively dissolving those parliaments and creating a united or shared parliament. If Scotland were to become an independent country this would mean the dissolution of the UK and England would regain its independence too. As far as the EU is concerned they would have to deal with two states coming out of one but I can't see the logic or rationale of the position whereby one of those states automatically remains in the EU while the other does not. Most likely Scotland and England would remain in the EU as member states but there would need to be some adjustments to take account of the new facts which shouldn't take more than an afternoon meeting to implement.

Sorry, I have no idea why I posted the above twice.

# 263 Rif - incorrect. Only the UK and Denmark have legal so-called "opt-outs" from the euro. All the EU member states which joined since Maastricht are obligated to eventually adopt the euro by their accession treaties - including Sweden. This is why the Commission got ratty when the Polish government started to talk about having a referendum to decide whether or not Poland would do so. See:

http://euobserver.com/19/23035

"Eurozone timetable keeps slipping, report warns"

As an U.S. citizen of Scottish descent, I really don't have a dog in this fight. However, I can't help but wonder why Scottish Nationalists who so resent dictates from Westminster are so eager to exchange them for dictates from Brussels ... or more realistically, from Berlin.

Didn't I read somewhere during the debate over the proposed EU constitution that the constituent nations of the EU would have less autonomy than the states of the U.S.? Is that the "independence you want?

Seems to me from reading the posts here, and hundreds of others during the Scotsman's week-long series on independence, that many Nationalists are more interested in hurting the English than in doing what's best for Scottish citizens.

There seems to be some odd logic here, for if Scotland won't have automatic entry into the EU (thank god!) then as an equal partner in the Union neither will England!

Indeed, it is technically impossible for Scotland to have independence from the UK - because if Scotland were to regain its sovereign status, then the UK would cease to exist and there would be nothing to be independant off!

Tom @ 270 Would that be an English or British bulldog ? I dont think there is such a breed as Scottish bulldog. Terriers yes indeed !! (very stroppy little dogs)

273 - in that case England will be in exactly the same position as it will also be a 'new' state.

Why this suprises anyone I have no idea. Being part of the EU is closely controlled and monitored process as can be seen by the time it has take for the most recent countries to join. Since the EU would have no idea about an independent Scotlands economic wellbeing as well as the various legal issues that would need to be disentanged from the U.K. (i.e. trade accords etc) then of course everything would have to re-assessed.

The SNP always make everything out to be easy and plain-sailing with independence, of course they would because the truth of economic disaster for Scotland if those bunch of muppets gain control would scare away voters.

MichieR, USA you are not a scotsman, you dont live here, so no-one is interested in your opinion.

As much as I support the idea of independance, I
would not openly embrace the EU. Given a vote on the matter, the German public would vote overwhelmingly to withdraw. The big countries France ,Germany and Italy only implement the EU rules that suit them, the rest they simply ignore.

No as I said previously, Partnership with China is the way forward. We need 100 engineers ? No problem (China), and the same goes for Drs
scientists etc etc. We may even be able to import their Police force and let them lose on the Ned Legions. The French opposistion leader is in China at the moment, we must not let ourselves be left behind.

Being ejected from the EU is the greatest news and would be a tremendous achievement for Alex Salmond!!

70% OF THE POPULATION OF ENGLAND AND THE UK WOULD LOVE TO REMOVE BRITAIN FROM THE EU.

The EU as we know is a totalitarian Soviet style state run by corrupt and feckless unelected beaurocrats. The next Treaty to be signed in 2009, will bring about the destruction of the UK and its replacement by regions. The Westminster Parliament will be no more than a Council with little democratic power.

The EU means the end of democracy!!

The EU will also bankrupt all the countries which it enslaves. The endless myriad of petty regulations will destroy most small businesses and the endless flow of Third World immigrants will depress wages. The EU will result in a 2 tier society with the majority poor and powerless and a small minority of elite politicians and beaurocrats with huge economic and poltical power (undesrved). ie just like a replica of the Soviet Union.

Scotland should happily leave the EU, take the oil, fishery water and go off and propser. Swizerland and Norway are doing very well outside the EU.

274# A true Scottish Nationalist has no interest in hurting his neighbours and this includes the English. You need to be independent to argue your case in Europe. This came to full fruition with Common Fishing Policy. They are a lot of problems in the running of Europe such as CAP, democracy and all that. Europe has a lot of benefits as well free trade like NAFTA, human rights, funding and the benefits of sorting things out rather than war. What does Scotland want in Europe? We can always follow the example of Norway not in the EU but trades freely.

This is fantastic news. It can not be a formality that Scotland joins the EU.

Once we get Independence I am sure we would not be daft enough to join an organisation whose auditors have not signed off the accounts for 12 (twelve) years!!

Tell em that in the meantime they will not be getting any whisky and the European fleet of fishing boats can stay away as well. We can concentrate on being self sufficient in food and energy, have a great education system that will produce large entrepreneurs and academics. We will have a large capital account surplus that will enable us to develop sustainable industry.

They will beg us to join that fascist club and if the Scots are wise we will tell them to GTF.

Emile Noêl, former Secretary General of the European Commission, has said:

"Scottish Independence would create two new member states out of one. They would have equal status with each other and the other 11 states. The remainder of the United Kingdom would not be in a more powerful position than Scotland."

Eamonn Gallagher, Former Director General of the European Commission and European Community Ambassador to the United Nations backed this view: "In my view, there could be no sustainable legal or political objection to separate Scottish membership of the European Community."

If newly independent nations like Estonia can be members of the EU then so can Scotland.

#278
Which voters would the SNP be scaring away? The petty Unionists such as yourself perhaps?

Giving you the benefit of the doubt, and it was a malaprop, and you actually meant 'business', then where is your proof laddie?

Or if not WTH are you on about?

278# thats a bit harsh. So what if he or she is American. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

With Scotland possessing three-quarters of the EU's oil reserves, it is very difficult to see why the EU would even want to block Scottish membership.

Even Labour's former Foreign Secretary, Robin Cook, an arch-opponent of Independence, admitted to European business representatives that: "Europe is not going to throw Scotland out. It welcomes all comers and Scotland would be a member." (The Herald 28-7-00)

Down with the big business run Europian Union and up with the union of all workers in Europe in a united front against the 50 firms who control our lives. That means No! no nationalism and Yes! to internationalism. Support John4leader ( just keep your eye open for his campaign) This post is aimed at the many people who are undecided and not the diehard nats who still believe that the world is flat.

Maybe thats because 278# realised that MichieR hit the nail on the head, at least 278's head.

Down with the narrow separatism of Sedov and his Labour mates.

Time for Scotland to rejoin the world again and play an equal part in creating a more prosperous, sustainable and successful world alongside our Irish, Nordic and Baltic neighbours.

Time to move on from failed British and US neo conservative imperialism and embrace social democracy and environmental responsibility.

Vote SNP to bring Scotland into the modern world at last!

This type of reporting is seriously disturbing. How can we have a fair debate about indpendance when the media (not just the scotsman) constantly use this type of unionist propoganda. This is not a "damaging blow" - whether Scotland remains in the EU or not it would be just fine. There are plenty of succesful countries in Europe both within and without the EU and arguments for and against the same. And for those that use the "why get independance from England to give it up to Brussels" argument - it is not the same thing. Scotland is not a sovergn nation within the UK, it would be as an independant country within the EU - free to join or leave as per the people/parliment choose.

235 Andler- Independence"Thats what you want and thats what England wants." It is enormously arrogant of you to speak for the whole of Scotland and the whole of England, your opinion based presumably on a couple of dodgy polls. The people have not properly thought this issue through. As a Scot-Brit with ties to all four Home nations it is NOT what I want !

This is nonsense. The EU will be doomed if it allows countries to start leaving it. It reminds me of a certain Eagles song (although not entirely relevant...)

"you can check out any time you like,
but you can never leave!"

We're DOOOOOOMED!!!

The EU would much rather have Bulgaria and Romania than Scotland because they're nowhere near as backward as us!

Is this the best they can come up with?

Fundamentally if Scotland gains independence from John Bulls domain, then factually the membership of , what in effect will NOT be the same country that applied for, and recieved 'membership' of a very dubious club, would also be in doubt. viz-a-viz it was the UNITED KINGDOM of GREAT BRITIAN AND NORTHERN IRELAND that applied for membership, so ergo, if said country rents itself assunder, then in the words of the vernacular 'The Games a Boggie' for all parties concerned, so the new countries will either be accepted as is or rejected in total, to do otherwise would only prove just what a sham the EU is.

Anyway who the F*** voted to join the EU anyway, I sure as Hell didn't!!!.

It is my firm belief that Scotland would be better aligning itself with it's 'Natural' Allies in the North rather than our traditional antagonists in the South, (England, France, Spain,Germany, Holland, Benelux and Italy all of which at one time or another have used and/or abused the Scottish Nation. )

I for one look forward to a totally Independent Scotland, with no ties to the English Empire or Commonwealth or the EU.

Make the Tricentennial Year our Freedom Year

Wherryman #268 Sean Connery continues to pay UK tax even though he doesn't have to.

SO GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT OR SHUT UP

HarryArgyll 296-Poor Sean Connery-bet he really struggles to pay those taxes-so noble! Talk about a gimmick!

I think what a lot of people on here fail to realise that just because you believe in independence doesn't mean have to be an SNP supporter. I know many friends and family members who are prepared to vote SNP purely to bring about independence. They have made it clear they will switch their votes back to whichever party after independence.

Even the SNP has admitted they would hold new elections if and when independence is declared.

And for those of you who keep banging that those of us who support independence have some sort of grudge with the English and are blinkered to the wider world is utter nonsense. I love my country and I want what I feel is best for it.

I respect those amongst you who wish to remain part of the UK and hope you may similarly respect my views. I just wish we could all have a sensible debate on here without it spiralling into name calling and finger pointing.

I don't agree with some of the SNP policies but I they are the only ones at the moment able to cause a seismic shift in our nation’s future. And as I mentioned before, after independence people can vote for whomever they like.

#293
Not the Orkney / Shetland Chestnut again.
Sheesh!

HarryArgyll - didnt you leave this debate earlier today?
"So I am now out of this debate."
Hmm, that puts you in the right political party anyway.
Are you Mr Connerys tax brief btw ? I'm confused how he pays VAT and fuel duty and all other UK incumbent taxes and it would be interesting to see how his estate is taxed on death. Methinks all kind of overseas trusts - but hey why not ? I'd do the same if I could afford to live in luxury outside Scotland.

#299 Where's your taxes then pal?

we are going to get this stuffed done our throat for the next few months what are they scared off????
1st the english subsidise us??? then they can have the cost of the games(and the glory) all to themself) like their cricket. my they are awfy quiet// 2nd they can pay for the DOME/TRIDENT/IRAQUE ECT ECT.We will sell them oil/water/ fish. and they might have to pay us for all the P.C. Comments they have made over the years about the JOCKS COME AWFFF IT SASANACHS LIVE IN THE REAL WORLD YOU;VE BEEN SUBSIDISED BY US FOR TOOOOOOO LONGTHE END IS NIGH//////// MAY2007

301. I had forgotten all about the Orkney/Shetland issue but 293 raises a very interesting point. Putting the oil issue to one side (not going to be there for ever so best forget about it in my view) what if distinct parts of Scotland want to break away? Good luck to them I say.

It's simple, have Scotland become the 51st State, then we'll send Mexicans over to do the sheep shearing and pick totties, you won't have to import Bulgarians and Serbs, besides you could have Mexican restuarants instead of curry takaways. Then thumb your nose at the EU.

As for Big Sean's taxes I seriously doubt he pays anything he is not legally obliged to pay. He doesn't reside here so it could only be from any business interests that he might have registered here. Nothing particularly noble about that.

#305
How about other parts of UK wanting to Join Scotland. Cumbria, Berwick, or even the Isle of Man?
Lets have an honest debate!
Why is it assumed that it would be all one way traffic?

Give it a rest.

We are not going to vote for Mr Salmond and he will not get in power in May.

Accept it and move on.

Scotland will vote for the shoddy labour party as it always does.

Sell your house and move somewhere warm. Bawsy please turn the lights off when you leave, otherwise try to keep the place tidy as we might want to visit on Holidays.

#298 famous 15. Its great that democratic debate can be conducted through a newspaper like the Independent, after all the press are neutral are they not? Like any politician, I can promise the world from the comfort of my sofa - but what has happened in the past when the SNP MP's and councillors had the chance to put their money where their mouth was on issues like the Poll Tax? - They voted with the Tories of course. Be ye judged by your record and not what you promise to the press.

Balloon,

Mebbe's aye, mebbe's naw.

May 2007. The revolution will be televised.

308. Fair point. More the merrier as far as I'm concerned. Come to think about it, isn't that what we have already in the United Kingdom!!

No reason why we couldn't mix it around a bit I suppose. End of the day it is pretty pathetic to get all arsey with each other over bugger all. Most people would probably prefer to be left in peace i.e. the status quo.

2015.

Blair Criticises Scottish Goverment over cellphone Salmong Hanging.

2015.

Blair Criticises Scottish Goverment over cellphone Salmond Hanging.

"The Richest Country in Europe.... "

You really havent got the slightest clue have you ?

313. Bit of a sweeping statement I think.

Ever since the start of the 20th century, we have seen the independence of all countries in Europe:

The Scandinavian countries from each other; Greece and the balkan countries from Turkey; Ireland from the UK; central European countries from Austria Germany and Hungary; and of course the fall of the iron curtain away from Russia:

Note that all these countries all in the Council of Europe (inc. Russia).

Time for the Trend to come to the modern day Britain?

we didn't get a say three hundred years ago when it was't a free counrty so i think with all tony blair's talk of freedom and stopping repression the people of scotland should be allowed to vote on indepencdance or are we still in a repressive regime of you do what we tell you and what to think.

How about the Ukraine / Norway / Spain / Finland.

Define Natural Assets.

Scotland is so rich it look like 1950 Stalinsville just about anywhere outside Edinburgh.

319. Probably right given coast line, fishing, coal, oil etc. Think we also do very well in generating hot air!!

Well, well, well, You know you've got the Unionists worried when they start to spout clap trap like this. Roll on May 3rd and keep the faith!! I've news for the Unionist despersdos the Scots voters are no longer taken in by these desperate scaremongering tactics.

Yes the are Rob Roy.

See you back here in May after another Labour Victory /slight increase in Special Needs Party seats.

I wouldnt vote for either of them.

Its called history and Im wasting no more finger movements on this. If you dont learn from it , you are doomed to repeat it.

310 you are telling lies again.

The SNP were at the forefront of the can pay won't pay campaign against the poll tax - foisted on Scotland by Westminster.

Why can't you make an argument without telling lies?

Does the fact that you cannot attack the SNP without resorting to falsehoods not tell you something about your own position?

325 - the SNP supports autonomy for Orkney and Shetland. When there was an Orkney and Shetland movement the SNP did not stand against them. But the movement petered out. If it comes to the fore again I have no doubt that the SNO will adopt the same constructive approach.

Unlike you the SNP is a democratic party which believes in self government.

What would happen to the Queens property in an Independant Scotland, would it be sold off, would she be travelling into a foreign country

Why do we listen to the Scotsman ?
Don't forget one of it's editors is Andrew Neil who stated in his book that Adam Smith wrote "Wealth of Nations" in Glasow... when every Scot knows that it wa written in his mother's house in KIRKALDY.
He is a sworn Anglophile and it shows. Hope he stays in England when we are independent

331gaffer
no it would be rafflled off and tickets will be very expensive indeed,and when she comes she will be leaving a foreign country.get it?

Orkney and Shetland are part of Scotland. There is no popular feeling there to quit Scotland and become independent themselves. (The people of Orkney and Shetland voted in favour of the Scottish Parliament.) Even if they did, who says they would get the oil? I think they would be lucky if they got sovereignty over water up to 5 miles from their shores.

The darien disaster was because of the English merchants putting pressure on the king, as there was more merchants in England than Scotland the king had little chance. But we would of still been able to go on with the venture if the English hadn't signed a treaty with the Spanish, which stopped the English coming to our aid. We were tricked from start to finish as we didn't want the English to get one over us. We didn't think things through and got a good kicking for it.

agreed - more unionist claptrap.

with regards to "Scotland would have to join the euro" - I don't see the problem with that - I've lived in a Euro state (Ireland) since the euro came out and it's brilliant - and don't say it will affect business - it won't (unless your a money exchanger) - when I was working back home in Scotland all my commercial agreements were in Euro anyway - what's the problem ?

Darien failed partly because King William (Billy) sabotaged it. He didn't lift a finger to help us even though he was supposed to be our king.

Look on the bright side, ou can kick out all Gastarbeiters, Poles, Bulgarians, Romanians, make room for the hordes of unemployed in Scotland, it's not all doom and gloom.
Someone commented on airspace, well every airline pays money to overfly anothers territory, nice little earner there.
You could cut VAT in half, most of it goes to EU funding anyway.
But even better, you can stick a couple of Euro MPs on the dole, now thats just got to be good for you.

Richard#323 Estimates for these things are always bigger than the existing ones, but most of the crude we pump will be export, as the amount we will use is too small to make the rigs worth running. The revenue themselves say you don't pay revenue until it is pumped at the petrol station, not at the refinery, if it was can you imagine the huge amount that would have to be paid on it, and the oil we would have to sell elsewhere would be too expensive to buy. At the moment on oil fields there is corparation tax paid, but the SNP want to stop all corparation tax, bad move,someone can't do their sums right.

#299 noble and gimmick…….you wouldn’t pay a penny you didn’t have to.

#302No one pays UK Vat or Fuel duties unless they use them. He does however pay UK taxes and is therefore entitled to have a political opinion and vote. My recollection was £3+ million in tax for 2005/06.

#307 Shug Yes he does pay taxes he doesn’t have to pay. The reason he does is in order that twits cannot accuse him of trying to influence Scottish politics while living abroad most of the year.

One huge problem not being in Europe, our european markets will be heavily taxed for our products to enter.

Richard C. Darien failed partly because of the actions of king William but there were other factors such as the lack of an experienced leader to take the party to Darien. Oh and we tried to inhabit a wasteland that was no use to man nor beast untill the Panama cannal was built. Trying to blame the English for the collaps of the Company of Scotland is akin to the Irish blaming them for the famin. It's just half the story that is cut to fit the indepence movement.

You just don't know how lucky you are. Norway operates outside the EU and is one of the richest European countries. this is nu-liebour grasping at straws.

336 yes it has always been.

1987 for example the SNP stood down to give John Goodlad of the Orkney & Shetland Movement a free run. He came fourth behind Labour, and took 14.5% of the vote.

Mini Mitch#345 The failure of Darien was indeed down to the English, and its foot prints go all the way back to the joining of the crowns. There had been so many acts passed to reduce the amount of money coming into Scotland that we had become Desperate to make some. Darien took £200,000 out of Scotland, which was a full half of the national wealth.

#336 - weasel words.
There is no 'opt out' as in they would not remain part of the 'rump' Uk or EngWalNiStan if Scotland became independent.
The SNP policy was to Support the Movement in Orkney Shetland for semi or full autonomy.
However this movement fell away, and as there does not seem to be any surge of support for this at the moment, where is your evidence or have you been on the Highland Park again you old gossip?

Mini Mitch:-

King William was our king and he did nothing to help us. He did what the English merchants wanted, i.e. eliminate potential competition from Scotland. Therefore he was not fit to be our king. Anyway, it was a brave adventure undertaken by brave men in a noble cause. Pity it failed. Why hasn't anyone made a movie about it?

Norway does not get penalized by the EU.
The average Norwegian pays a lot more in taxes, but puplic services are much higher quality, you get what you pay for.

Richard#347 Yes it can be revised, but the amount first put forward will have to be reduced with it. In Norway they didn't say they were going to make this huge profit then have to go back and revise it.

Oh dear! So many spelling mistakes and grammatical errors. Did any of you go to school in Scotland in the last 50 years?

James#350 I have also heard there maybe some movement from the highlands and islands, as we expect oil revenue will be almost totally used in the lowlands. To us being run by Edinburgh is no different from being run from westminster, as we are not going to get any more out of independence as we do now in the union, infact we could get less, we just don't know.

Richard#354 It is true we have a lot, but water is likely to be our greatest, much of the rest could easily become a problem if our weather goes from bad to worse.

HarryArgyll #356 If you can't keep your head, how is Scotland to fare come independence.

Richard C. The Company of Scotland's Darien scheme failed not just because of English influence but also because of Scottish incompetence. We lacked the necessary expertise in setting up a colony and it was the Spanish war of succession which was more of an influence on William than the English merchants as it was because of this he stopped Scotland from getting resources. Also all William did in terms of England was to stop u from raising funds from their which means you can’t really criticise it because then it is total hypocrisy by saying the English screwed us by not backing our idea. If it is our adventure then we should take responsibility and not blame our failings one someone else.

Mini, I think you will find Darien has been flogged to death. Repeat, repeat, repeat.

"because of Scottish incompetence. We lacked the necessary expertise"

Yes the expertise to kill every lying cheating back stabbing one of them.

HarryArgyll#362 This is exactly the reason the Darien disaster happened, because of people like you, a vote and no brain.

#360. Anndra Ailean: In an Independent Scotland, we'll change spellings and grammer to suit the Scots and hopefully Micro Soft will finally produce a spell checker in Scots-English.

As May approaches, you'll get more and more articles and pronouncements like this piece from Hamish MacDonnell. The Scotsman is incapable of producing factual reporting. They're just so heavily biased; hopefully they'll be wringing their hands and holding their heads in despair come May when their Little Englander Unionist world crumbles around them.

There are a WHOLE LOT of comments on this article and I don't have time to read them all. Quite a few of them I did read I agree with. My sentiment is, the EU scares me a bit and I thought GBritain was crazy to join in the first place. Who needs 'em?! What is the point of independence if you suddenly become another part of yet another country after secession?

Mini,

Nice to see you back. :)

#364 Love it “people like you” You think people who make statement you don’t agree with are idiots, great now lets debate then shall we.

Anndra you said"I have also heard there maybe some movement from the highlands and islands,"

I live in the Highlands and Islands and would be interested in any source you might be quoting here. You know YOU HEARD, where from?

Come on now Anndra you heard it WHERE or is this just more rubbish because you have nothing constructive to bring to the table.

Harry,

Let your vote do the talking.

I'm an idiot too, Harry. But I'll be a happy idiot when SNP kick NewLabCon oot of Edinburgh.

#370 "Come on now Anndra you heard it WHERE or is this just more rubbish because you have nothing constructive to bring to the table."

Interesting Harry - may I ask what this comment of yours brings to the table ?...

#363 "Yes the expertise to kill every lying cheating back stabbing one of them."

The € is a red kipper!

The Slovenijan Government which has recently just done so gives the following advantages for its decision to introduce the € this year. (Indeed you may recollect that Slovenija resorted to war to secede from Jugoslavija to negotiate access to the EU).

Their Government say that:

"It is expected that the adoption of the euro will bring several advantages for citizens and enterprises:

providing a more stable environment for the whole economy by eliminating exchange rate fluctuations and therefore by eliminating uncertainties, risks and exchange costs;
facilitating business in non-European markets;
easier price comparison of goods and services between Slovenia and other euro area countries;
enhanced competition as a consequence of easier price comparisons within the euro area;
elimination of costs related to the exchange of different currencies;
wider and more diversified offer of saving opportunities, easier loan raising, and an end to the search for exchange offices before and whilst traveling.
As the benefits are mostly related to lower transaction costs in trade within the area, the benefits of the introduction of the euro in countries with strong trade ties outweigh the drawbacks. This is also true of Slovenia, being a small and open economy concluding the greatest proportion of international trade deals with the euro area countries".

So for Scotland the advantages are quite clear in this sphere and while the Irish are sound on this, look at the mess our government is in, having to shadow the € keeping interest rates higher just to satisfy the interests of the City of London.

Most people also know that the Fiscal rules Brown is following (Monetary policy phase three) are to ensure that the UK has convergence with the rest of the EU, BUT without the advantages of actully having the common notes and coins in our pockets.

Sounds as though this argumen

the only problem i seem to have is my annual holiday to the EU is that i have to buy very expensive holiday insurance for medical problems which in this country might have to be treated now and then but are considered as high risk by insurance companies, no insurane i can be in serious trouble.
ARRIVE FROM MALAGA, spanish national, have heart attack,ambulance-hospital- treatment, no mention of holiday insurance or financial penalties.
EU not equal

#373 Buckfastleigh
You can't possibly be advocating adopting the Euro! Eire adopted it and most of them haven't a good word to say about it - they consider they were ripped off in the changeover (a bit like us with decimalisation all those years ago). The only explanation for this is that you are actually called "Leigh" and you have been drinking Buckfast.

Hello MacMillan, do ask for a European Health Insurance Card if you are unemployed, employed or retired. I have had a similar experience but the other way round to your Spanish friend. Check with the NHS Newcastle. It's true, you really are covered in the EU!!

We could be just like Norway then!

No 62 you will find a large number of atrocities were committed by Scottish soldiers after the Act of Union as part of the glorious empire! As well as the other fine member countries....

Nice to see that Scoots are still incapable of having a rational argument/ discussion about the realities of independence. With most people on here adopting the 'la la la I can't hear you approach'

I think you will find the worlds best small country is Switzerland.

So you've still a long way to go.

And no 373 I suggest a course in how the financial markets work.. Ever head of hedging? Forex futures? Etc etc.

It's all gut instinct or balance sheet out there. I go for both and have done it for years only to have been proved correct.

Last verse (promise) of a song written years ago;-

From the farmlands to the fishing grounds to the offshore industries
Do I not see enough to know our people can be free
Of the power cartel whose coffers swell with the payments made in hand
From the pillars of establishment
And the dues of the working man?

Are these the benefits of the Union, what price your thruppence in the pound?
What are the benefits of a Union that keeps its people down?

I just thought that for information that the head of the EC in Scotland Mr Mitchison refered to above stood as a candidate (Liberal Democrat) for both Westminster and the European Parliament, most recently in 1999.

Of curse this would/should have no bearing on his present comments about Scottish independence.

Details are on

http://ec.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/about_us/cvnm_en.htm

The Slovenian government is just regurgitating the standard EU theory about the expected economic benefits of the euro. In practice its effects have turned out to be the opposite. An official analysis by leading French economists published in October concluded that "The euro’s creation has not produced the knock-on benefits expected" and in fact the damaging effects have so far outweighed any benefits. Even in Slovenia there are already complaints that the changeover has pushed up prices.

I think consistently if everyone else out from Scotland makes threats against us, we (I speak as a Scot at heart) we will threaten to take back the rights of everything we ever invented, ie, TV, telephone, the list is endless. Would the world not be in a gigantic mess if that were ever to happen?...Have bravery, have strength, have forthrightness, have a mind for the future when our Grand children take pride in owing a country that belongs to us, not some other wallah. Time both the English and the Scots had their own independence, and for all the nonsense to be stopped.Whatever that may be.

#372 Take everything I say in full not just the sh*te you want it to say out of context. The full comment is @ #363 and in response to # 361. Just another idiot.

Well Anndra, still waiting for this source mmm.

Stop spouting so called facts unless you can back it up.

oh I will #371 and be rid of the lot of these clowns.

on a more mundane level, I should point to 135 and 308 that Wales was only legally incorporated into England if you consider 13th century military conquest legal. Given that English (Norman) law would have applied and the only upper house in Europe at the time was the Pope, it might well be.

However, Berwick was illegally incorporated into England in the 19th century and the shire boundary line is what the English project into the North Sea to justify their claim that it is not Scotland's oil. No international scrutiny then?

I sincerely hope that Berwick and the territorial waters handed over to English jurisdiction by the puppet McConnell and his ilk (my opinion) come under special scrutiny by the lawyers who are going to handle our divorce.

Wonder if Berwick is still at war with Russia?

Brocher (380):-

Thanks for the information. That puts it all in proper perspective, i.e. Mr Mitchison is a Lib Dem politician. He's trying to bamboozle the people in Scotland and undermine the SNP vote.

Well spotted Brocher #380

HarryArgyll, the voice of reason, tolerance and moderate language.

"oh I will #371 and be rid of the lot of these clowns "

How Harry? I assume we will still have a democracy come the big day ?

As you say - "just another idiot"

Oh #388 you wouldn't believe how reasonable and tolerant I really am. So swearing in your mind makes one less of a person? Grow up.

Why little but criticism and cynicism from people in here nothing constructive, you included.

If you don't want an independent country that’s fine, just don't tell me why you think I SHOULDN'T want one.

Interesting article about Russia cutting off oil/gas suplies. Something we would never do to England of course when we feed our water down to them over the next 100 years. I am sure though the revenue generated by this will help fill the so called BLACK HOLE.

384:
The boundary line from Berwick would at most put the gas fields and two oil fields into English territory, the vast majority would still be in Scottish water even in the worst case scenario.

As for this whole debate, I sincerely doubt "We'll have to leave the EU!!" is going to lose the SNP any voters in itself, although it might show that the SNP haven't perhaps thought through all the consequences. But if the UK all together pays in 13 billion to the EU, Scotland's share of that has to over 1 and 1/2 billion at least .It'd plug that gap in the SNP's figures quite easily.

As for the rest of the UK, the UK would no longer exist, it says clearly enough that the UK is Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and with Scotland gone, there's no Great Britain, theres England and Wales, and the dependency of Northern Ireland. So as far as I can see, unless theres some last minute laws passed in Westminster and Brussels, both Scotland and England would have to re-apply. And to be honest, I doubt either would.

390:
They'd get water from the North of England, or France, if it ever got that desperate. Be nearer and cheaper than Scotland. Besides, you don't remember Scottish Water being rated as the worst quality supplier in the whole UK?

Scare mongering- what is new? Does it mean England would also have to renegotiate (since the union would no longer exist, neither would the UK??). Scotland survived well enough until it was betrayed by a handful of nobles, and will do so again. I would certainly come home!

It seems not everyone here or amongst those who write articles are aware of their own history or the nature of the (unwritten) constitution of the UK.

It seems that people in England are particularly ignorant of what the 'UK' actually means, but seeing how many of them equate 'England' and 'Britain as two words for the same thing, we should not find this surprising. This failure of understanding came across again and again in my time in London and other areas of England but much less in Scotland, mainly because it is much more of an issue here.

The fact is, the UK is the United Kingdom of England and Scotland, NOT Wales or NI. Wales is formally a shire of the Kingdom of England (sorry guys!) and NI is a province of the United Kingdom.

As the UK is a united kingdom of England and Scotland, after independence, both countries would revert to their pre 1707 state, NOT THEIR pre 1603 state!

So Scotland and England would continue to share a monarch.. Those of the hard of thinking seem to think that independence means a republic... these are both separate issues you muppets!

A republic is a separate issue for the people to decide at a later date, if they so desire. Ireland kept the Queen as head of state right up to the 1950s, 30 years after independence!

Basically, after independence, the UK would cease to exist.
We would now return to the pre-1707 state which is the Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of Scotland, both sharing the same monarch but each politically sovereign as both parliaments are independent (at least as far as possible as it is to be in the EU).
For me, this seems a far healthier state of affairs than the current arrangement. Don't get me wrong, the Union was only there for one thing: the Empire, and Scotland did great out of it, but the Empire's gone now folks, and its time to move on.

Go Kingdom of Scotland and go Kingdom of England!

After independence, both country's correct constitutional

Has anybody considered the voting system set up by westminster to make sure no party would ever get an outright majority. This alone makes independance unlikely in my lifetime.

Theres a lot of dubiety in the phrase used for a start.It claims there are "doubts".Anybody can have doubts,but it means very little indeed,depending upon what the facts are. This question was raised years ago by Lothian MSP David Martin and was dismissed by the outgoing president of the EU then as Unionist claptrap and scaremongering.As many have pointed out the position would be the same for England since both countries revert to their previous state prior to 1707,and Scotlands bargaining position is one which the EU would be unwilling to lose,and this is accepted by numerous academics.There is clearly an election on and the SNP are clearly winning the argument,with the result that the Unionists are running scared and their cohorts in the media are printing every piece of crap they can lay their hands on.
far from being SCOTLANDS NATIONAL NEWSPAPER this is more in keeping with SCOTLANDS NATIONAL DISGRACE!
I was convinced by some very learned people indeed that this is a complete and total mischief years ago,and Im even more convinced of it now!
A precedent exists of a sort regarding the Nordic countries trading and Greenland,and it only takes One Labour MEP to "doubt"something and the newspapers to glorify this into something worthy of consideration for all the wee Labourites to wander around repeating it like the bunch of parrot brains they surely are.
Thats precisely what happened with David Martin and the presumptiojn clearly is they were thick enough to swallow it last time,kets try it again!
ITS TIME!

"One hound starts barking and it set the whole pack off" 396 posts, most intelligent, all of interest. Thank you.

Just as long as you dont run the country Harry I'm happy for you to have what you want.

"Why little but criticism and cynicism from people in here nothing constructive, you included."

And you included Harry - I must have missed your balanced, well thought out post today. There was a bit about Hogwarts I recall

Jeez those Scottish unionist MPs in Westminster that upset your agenda must really get under your skin ?

Well believe me I will be more than happy to see Fife have a new MP.

280 ......You are talking good sense and showing considerable discerment in your thoughts. Many of the folk in countries that adopted the Euro as their currency now "rue" and I mean "RUE" the folly of their choice and would gladly rejoice in seeing the clock set back......you ask the majority of French and Germans and you will see what I meam. Moving away from the €Euro itself to the EEC is it not clear from the catastropic collapse of the former USSR that this gigantic conglomerate "union" controlled from Moscow simply did not work and that the autonomy which these countries now have is much to their good and betterment......................YET with blinkerred and gullable zeal we have hovering on the outside of another neighbouring "union" EEC parties like the SNP wanting us to go down this double whammy avenue of disaster ruled by Brussels. The primary question is not whether were should be in the EEC or the €Euro.....the real and important question to you is whether "You are in Christ". then you are truely blessed indeed. Great Britain was great because in those days of greatness it honoured God ...today it has forsaken the truth of God's word that once made it great and is virtually a pagan society (and that includes Scotland just as much as England ....). A nation that turns its back on God will in due time reap its reward - barrenness and being forsaken with the glory and former blessings simply being taken away. Let us be wise and get our priorities right before our Maker - lest we perish in the way.

DOUBTS OVER AUTOMATIC ENTRY FOR AN INDEPENDENT SCOTLAND-

HAMISH MACDONELL
SCOTTISH POLITICAL EDITOR (hmacdonell@scotsman.com)

""..THE SNP's case for independence was dealt a damaging blow last night when a taxi driver at Waverly station and some hair stylists in Morningside challenged the Nationalists' core assumption - that an independent Scotland would automatically become a member of the European Union...""

Remember you read it here first folks!!

This article feels spurious. And it is certainly ill-judged: won't affect the gadarene stampede one bit, except to spur it on.

That being said, the level of many contributions to this debate hardly bolsters my national pride... Just as well it doesn't need bolstering.

Looks at times like some new addition to the highland games, wee manikins sporting chips on their shoulders the size of Ben Nevis.

As for this word "independence", most of those who've uttered it here might as well have said baa or moo. Just so much noise, what they mean neither they nor I know.

But I do know what it doesn't mean: it does not mean isolation or separation or secession from the human race or from any part of it. Before we're Scots, we're HUMAN, just like the English or the Ethiopians. And, like it or not, we are Europeans. Nor has it to do with hatred or envy of other human beings, but respect and self-respect.

A great Englishman once said: "Patriotism, Sir, is the last refuge of a scoundrel".

A pity those wise words have been forgotten. Here, I don't know so much about scoundrels, but it surely provides a fine forum for the inadequate, those low in self-esteem, those whose sense of identity is so deficient that they have to take it out on someone else. A bunch of bekilted bullfrogs puffing themselves up in imitation of bulls... And if they don't agree with fellow-Scots, these poor wee things call them Unionists, as though that meant something like perverts. Too weak in the head to manage an argument. And I thought I was fed up with the English... There's surely been quite enough idiotic fanaticism in Scots history without adding more now.

Thank Heaven those who count in Scotland are not those who make the most noise.

Independence is about standing up and engaging with the world, not withdrawing from it. It is about relating to our neighbours and to everyone else, not turning our back on them. It's an inner

hey a hunner up fer me, nae bother!!

#401. PETER C.
Thank you for your patronage.
I for one was sitting here needing to be patronised Peter.

Some of us just get fed up being called nazis or anglophobes, or just stupid.
I may be the latter as I have been suck(er)ed into rising to their taunts.

Ask for an argued point, all that comes back are opinions or name calling.

Make a constructed argument for independence, self determination, home rule, non dependence and each time the same tired, you're too stupid/wee/ poor lines are rehashed and trotted out.

The Scotsman, I believe, is printing articles that are transparently rubbish in the attempt to draw the sting out of the pro-Scottish debate on the side of the Nationalists in the run up to the May elections.

I know it is inconvenient for all the SNP true believers but the law lecturers say Scotland will most likely have to reapply. The lawyers are aware that the UK is made up of constituent parts, they are not stupid. It appears that rump UK or whatever you wish to call it will not have to reapply (probably because it is not seceding - unlike Scotland). I'm sure it will still legally 'exist' and inherit most of the UK's assets etc as Russia did when the USSR broke up. This SNP 'scaremongering' slogan is so threadbare it is becoming irrelevant. Personally I believe both Scotland and rump UK will be in the EU if Scotland becomes independent. I just think Scotland may have some problems in joining. Fair or not, it's virtually certain that the rest of the UK will not have to reapply.

A Royster old been I was wondering where you'd gone.

Point of order there.

Scotland would not secede from anything.

The Treaty of Union would be annulled.

The Act of Union(1707) revoked and the Kingdoms of Scotland and England would revert back to their pre-1707 status.

As such both countries would be subject to the same terms and conditions of Treaties and Accords entered into under their pooled sovereignty.

This article is so flawed, its laughable!
Just hope Hamish McDonell is not on full pay, if he is, The Scotsman should be that they employ a reporter, sorry political editor that writes such dire crap! The Commission's representative in Scotland, Neil Mitchison, confirmed that Scotland would not be granted automatic entry into the EU, as the Nationalists insist. "The situation is unprecedented and therefore negotiations would be needed. Things would have to be discussed and negotiated," he said.
I doubt that Neil Mitchison neither is actually qualified on the subject, nor is he unbiased on the subject. But as he reportedly stated “The situation is unprecedented”
“An expert in constitutional law from Edinburgh University backed this up by stressing that Scotland would have to negotiate its accession to the EU” Sorry what expert??
“Mr Happold dissected each one of the SNP's arguments and concluded that an independent Scotland would not only fail to get automatic membership of the EU, but would probably be much worse off than it is now, with less influence and less money". On what basis is this based??, How can a country be worse off if it not contributing any money, never mind receiving any?
“Mr Happold said the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland would remain the nation state, a member of the EU, a member of the United Nations, NATO and other international organisations and Scotland would be seen as seceding from it. Scotland would then have to apply for membership of each international organisation it wanted to join”. This is so laughable; you question the qualifications of this so-called expert! Someone should explain to Mr Happold that the United Kingdom of Great Britain, IS Scotland AND England!!, take away Scotland and there is NO, United Kingdom. With Scotland’s Independence, England would have to apply for membership of all afore mentioned institutions
“Mr Happold warned that Scotland would alm

Sorry Livilion (403# etc.), no interest in patronising you or anyone else. Besides, I don't know why you in particular should feel patronised. Now, if I said I agreed with points you've made (I do) would that look patronising? Heaven help us...

However, it's hard to repeat a contribution as cogently a second time when you've written one, pressed the Post button and off it's gone down the memory hole. (I don't know what party the gremlins support).

Basically, I said that the Scotsman's article doesn't ring true, seems spurious, manipulative - but is likely to have the opposite effect from that intended.

As for 405# Famous Fifteen, I don't find my tone particularly moderate, because I get angry with people whom I see as undermining any form of government Scotland could have with their failure to think anything through, their whinging in the place of thinking and their absurd expectations: that True Romance view of independence as living happily ever afterwards. Anything we undertake will be a hard struggle: the bolder, the harder.

I'm a born sceptic, it doesn't matter very much what is proposed, I'll be Devil's Advocate and question it. (Unlike some, I'm not disappointed with Blair or New Labour, since I never had any confidence in either. If it hadn't been for his pandering to Bush et al, he would, however, have surpassed my expectations).

Secondly, I'm deeply suspicious of nationalism and of politicians who use it as a warhorse. Well, think back over the past hundred years: how nationalism in a small country, Serbia, triggered off a century of madness and destruction in Europe. Then Hitler, Mussolini and all the Fascist leaders. In the US, the likes of McCarthy and some of the present band for whom Americans are "more equal than others". And, more recently, Communist turncoats like Milosevic, Tudjman, and most of the leaders of the countries of the former Soviet Union, all playing with fire, especially the Russian leaders

#321 "Scotland is so rich it look like 1950 Stalinsville..."

This is exactly why you people need to vote for change and vote for it now.

It is truly sad when you look at Dundee, North Lanarkshire, North Ayrshire, Glasgow and many other places and see the awful state of the towns and cities. People still live in sub standard housing in anti social environments. And who has presided over this abject failure for the last 50 years, wasting the taxation raised from the people - the Labour Party and then the New Labour Party.

These people are worse than the Tories in that they profess to be a friend of the ordinary person on the street and yet they have failed to do anything for them in the last 50 years. And yet still people vote for them without giving it a thought.

Labour has been in power for 10 years at Westminster and for God knows how long in most central belt councils. There is very little evidence of them doing anything constructive to improve the lives of the masses and yet they have raised taxation to obscene levels that are unprecedented in the UK.

Labour is not working. Scotland is not working. You people really do need something radical to happen or your future is bleak.

The question about EU membership is a red herring in this whole debate. The pressing issue for Scots is the need for fundamental change that will give you a chnce to create the conditions where your country can prosper in the 21st century.

There is only one major party that is offering you an option that could lead to creating conditions that will save Scotland. Voting SNP is not going to be the answer to Scotland's problems. But it will give you an opportunity to move towards the conditions were Scotland can start to look after its own interests.

There is much work to be done.....

#406. Livilion. That sounds reasonable enough to me but the law lecturers seem to think otherwise.

A Paddy here from Sydney. And Scotland will be dumped by the EU??? Umm. So the EU reckons Scotland is a second tier adjunct of England in the partnership currently known as the UK? And England is in the driving seat for continued membership? Or the ill informed writer of this article reckons so? Paper doesn't refuse ink, does it? Constitutional law reckons they are both partners in the union - or is that a fallacy? With no disrespect, and may these nations prosper in the EU, but Latvia, Czech Republic, Slovakia (Ooops weren't those last two once the one state - I'm Irish, I might be wrong) Bulgaria and Romania - all joiners of late - do they bump an established Scottish presence (as part of the UK) out of the equation? Well sure I'm only a layman but I say UNEQUIVOCALLY NO ("RUBBISH" might be a better phraseology) and any man that dares to suggest so is an idiot. And I WON'T BE PROVEN WRONG! Half the Scots tolerate the Irish, half the Scots hate the Irish - we know the history! But Scots (haters and likers alike!) to me are a people of great industry, culture and vibrancy. Your commentators do you a total injustice. The UK has been a great model of intra-national co-operation over 3 centuries (we didn't do too well!) and the buzz of the moment now is of separation - in reality, not hostility, but mutual moving forward with similar but particularly local agendas when the mists of political balderdash and scaremongering is seen for the scaremongering it is. Is that not what the EU facilitates? Tory, Socialist and nationalist alike - surely the Scottish political landscape can accomodate and maybe even tolerate all? Of course it can and it will. Scotland will makes its own decision - as the canny and stubborn Scots do! And more power to ye. Let's cut beyond the apparently well constructed, layered arguments that seem well reasoned and call them what they are - absolute rubbish and about as useful as chocolate teapots.

Scotland would have to adopt the Euro.Sorry nobody told me that we have it in the UK,Im still using Sterling!What utter rubbish!
The simple fact is membership of the European Union will be a) terms acceptable to Scotland or b) We dont join.That is staing the obvious surely!
Yes there will be some negotitation,and the term "automatic "entry was never what the SNP claimed,and how much depends upon what is on offer.If the terms are less than we have currently we wont be there and thats in Scotlands best interests.So no problem there then!
Those who cry wolf and say we wouldnt be allowed to join forget that me might NOT be willing to join! There is no ruling which says we will be automatically included or excluded either! You yourselves said there is no precedent (although thats only true of the EU and there is a comparable situation involving Greenland and the Nordic trading alliance)
Its all to play for,and Scotland will NOT trade her conditions of entry away of that you can be sure!
This is scaremongering,and whilst it may be a new situation for the EU,its still the case That Euroland welcomes nations with a lot less going for them than we have! Of course we cannot say anything in absolute certainty,but the case for Scotland is one of extreme optimism, once you remove the obvious self interest of the Unionist argument.
Those who automatically trust anything put forward by a government who are known to have lied to Scotland for the last thirty years , need to get a brain transplant,..............but beware of rejection!
ITS TIME!

#414. Morris. As long as England is in the EU, Scotland will have to be in the EU or EEA if Scots want the right to work in England. If Scotland applies to join the EU as a separate nation, then Scotland would probably have to negotiate an 'opt out'. However it is unprecedented so who knows?

412
I doubt that Proffessor Neil McCormack would agree with them,in fact I know for a fact that he never did in the last thirty years!Mind you he was only Regus Proffessor at Edinburgh( if my memory serves me well),and internationally respected. I guess that makes him their equal at least !
The inference that law lecturers say this ,should read some do ,and many in Scotland dont!"( and many are members of the SNP) I wonder why?
Its crystal ball time and the picuture is neither absolutely yes nor is it no.The definitive answer will be known to all of us simultaneously after independence.
The real point is Scotland will only be a member if the terms are acceptable to Scotland anyway,and had it suited their purpose,whats the bet that the Unionists would claim we cannot leave the EU !That argument holds exactly the same releveance as its opposite,ie very little indeed.
The Union is under serious threat and they know the consequences of this,thats why they dare not let Scotland leave without a fight,and thats one more reason why we should leave the UK,but listen to what the EU has to offer and then decide by referendum.ie The People of Scotland will decide if we even want to be a member once the terms of SCOTLANDS membership are written in black and white,not what Lonodn would have you believe in adavance when they are no more in a position of certainty than we are.

415
I take your point,I was glad to read the closing observation "However it is unprecedented so who knows?" Indeed.
It is perhaps worth mentioning (you probably know this anyway) that Sweden and Norway managed to seperate and there was no animosity at all,and the two nations are co existent in much the same way as they were prior to Norwegian independence.I would like to think that Englands view of Scots in England would echo our view of English people in Scotland,and both nations would adopt a sensible attitude toward this and place no restrictions whatsoever unless absolutely neccessary.I certainly know that its not Scotlands intention to exclude anybody from our country.I would imagine that England would be mature enough to also do this,but I too will acknowledge the courtesy of your closing remark and accept that it is as yet unresolved and we can only specualate.

So an ex Liberal Democratic candidate used his position in 1999 to try and undermine the SNP's policy of Independence in Europe. This trash is then regurgitated by the Scotsman.

As someone has already pointed (and the Lord Chancellor did so recently) without Scotland there is no Britain and no British state. It is almost certain that Wales will demand independence shortly after Scotland (poll figures show similar support in Wales for independence as in Scotland and England) and Northern Ireland is not going to want to hang on to a rump English state.

If the EU puts obstacles in Scotland's way then it will be their loss. In reality there would be no obstacles (as the Scotsman ultimately admits) as Scotland has huge mineral resources and has a completely EU integrated economy already.

This is scaremongering pure and simple. Many people in Scotland are not keen on the EU anyway but the difference with independence is that it would be OUR choice if we stay in or move out rather than being tagged together with a British state which does not represent Scottish interests.

In support of #417, are there any grounds for speculating that an independent Scotland's relationship with England would be any less favourable than has applied between UK and Southern Ireland? Predating EU membership by either country, there were reciprocal rights of residence and voting after Irish independence and these continued despite the subsequent change to a Republic of Ireland outside the Commonwealth. And all this despite more than a little strife along the way!

Thus in practical terms an amicable divorce between England and Scotland should not raise any fears about a subsequent harmonious relationship at least as good as that continuing between UK and Ireland.

Whatever the theoretical legal situation, should England be in EU and Scotland not , I would dare any British Isles politician to try telling the respective populations that they could not freely maintain cross-border family and other ties!

There are many sound points in favour of or against Scottish independence but I suggest that this is not one of them.

I will refrain from commenting on my own qualifications. However, I would say that my work has been published. An expanded version of my paper appeared in the International and Comparative law Quarterly ("Independence: In or Out of Europe? An Independent Scotland and the European Union" (2000) 49 ICLQ 15). The ICLQ is a refereed academic journal, published by Oxford University Press and edited by Prof. Alan Boyle of the University of Edinburgh. Individuals who wish to debate my arguments rather than engage in ad hominen attacks can read them there.

#420
Can you explain why Scotland would probably be much worse off than it is ?
As Scotland is already a member of the EU, by virtue of being part of the UK, what is your asumption based on that Scotland would have to put in a full application? Presume if Scotland has to re-apply, the same would go for England?
You are reputed to have stated "the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland would remain the nation state, a member of the EU, a member of the United Nations, NATO and other international organisations and Scotland would be seen as seceding from it. Scotland would then have to apply for membership of each international organisation it wanted to join" On what basis do you believe that the United Kingdom of Great Britain would remain after Scotlands independence, being that the United Kingdom of Great Britain is actually the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England, or is this a part of history that you overlooked?

#394 you say:
'It would certainly be interesting, although there is little doubt that NI would remain with England'

Really. Who says. I think we English might say otherwise. We have 50 billion reasons to say bye bye to N.Ireland

HarryArgyll #369 All I can say is if you've never heard it you don't get out much. Now lets discuss why we should vote for the SNP but not allow them an independence vote until they have proven themselves with a full term in office. There are those who are stuck in the past and don't want out of the union, and there are those who want to be independent through the SNP. But the SNP need to prove they won't kill this country before we go independent, and the only way is to go through a full term before the vote, to show people they aren't just blowing hot air.

417. morris, edinburgh

Isn't it Alex Salmond that's credited with coining the phrase
'better good neighbours than surly lodgers'?

After the Treaty of Union is repealed, it's entirely possible that, given the eurosceptic tendency in England, we could see a situation where Scotland opts for continued full participation in the EU, whereas England may attempt to pull back to a position nearer to that of the Norwegians and participate in the EEA, EFTA, but perhaps not Schengen.

Could we even see England, given her 'special' relationship(G.I. bride), petitioning for membership of the North American Free Trade Agreement, or am I just wandering further into the realms of fantasy?