That’ll be official then?

If we don't for independence, what the hecks the point of the SNP..... it think were being played for fools by those behind ALL parties

My apologies i should have said I...but if we don't go for independence this time, be assured we will never get another chance.
We would only be getting a different flavour of the same agenda

For a cause so simple and in an attempt for it’s people to be given the right to vote for the independence of their country in a bloodless maner - it sure is creating a big strumash!

Who are the people living in fear of this and what are they affraid of?

I just don’t get the fear of letting go - it epitomises a phobic selfishness.

HOW do they Know What the Scots want?

We're not in a possion at the moment to vote for Indpendence (YET)

So, How can you really know that people woun't change their minds after this year celabrations of the union (The remancing of how much we hate the unoin and the way our anceters were tricked.)

I'll back Indpendence, (When I have the opertunity too vote for it.

scottweb - have you ever heard the saying - never say never - but hey I guess you mean that the world will be f*ckd before we get another chance as we environmentally only have 10 years to save it. eh?

Eve - They know what the Scots want by just making it up

It’s easy - in a poll I conducted where i asked 4 million folk in Scotland what they wanted they all said a nice house with a heated swimming pool - see it’s that easy!

Good luck scotland there nothing like freedom to choose your own destony.EVERY JOURNEY BEGINS WITH ONE STEP.
EIRE DOING WELL FOR ALL THE DOUGHTERS.

"On chances of independence, William Hill offers odds of 200/1 that Scotland will become independent of the rest of Britain within five years"

Lets put a bet on (& vote for independants) with odds like that, We Could make a lot of money out of the Bookies by proving them wrong.

We would have to worry about no getting our alleged supplement from Westminster and we could bribe our English realives to come and live in Scotland (AYE RIGHT, I'M QUITE SURE SCOTLAND PAYS AT LEST FOR OUR KEEP AND THEN SOME), then their would be no splitting of Families (AYE RIGHT AS IF SPILTING OF FAMILYS WOULD HAPPEN DIRECTLY FROM SPLITING WITH THE UNION)

Well if we don't get Independence we're gonna get David Cameron and the Tories.

Broon's New Labour are about to implode like the Tories after Maggie.

Cameron can smell the coffee and knows that he needs to get rid of the Scottish Labour voters.
He knows that most of these never read election material or manifestos but just look for the red rosette and the Labour icon on the voting slip.

Scotland independent gives England what it wants, a Tory government, and Scotland gets it's government back.

Broon yer tea's oot!

OPP's coment #9 came out a bit worped, SORRY.
Should read:

On chances of independence, William Hill offers odds of 200/1 that Scotland will become independent of the rest of Britain within five years"

Lets put a bet on (& vote for independance) with odds like that, We Could make a lot of money out of the Bookies by proving them wrong.

We wouldn't have to worry about no getting our alleged supplement from Westminster (AYE RIGHT, I'M QUITE SURE SCOTLAND PAYS AT LEST FOR OUR KEEP AND THEN SOME), and we could bribe our English realives to come and live in Scotland then their would be no splitting of Families (AYE RIGHT AS IF SPILTING OF FAMILYS WOULD HAPPEN DIRECTLY FROM SPLITING WITH THE UNION)

Dont let the nay sayers get to you.When it comes to
Scottish independence you have nothing to fear but fear its self.
Go for it !

Those 100/1 odds look pretty good to me. . .

And as for Cameron "why don't we teach British history in our schools"!!, I'd like to ask "why don't we teach SCOTTISH history"? I'll bet most school kids know all about 1066, but why should they? How about teaching them about the Picts, and the founding of Scotland? Why should we care when Julius Caesar invaded England?

the s.n.p can get labour out yes?
does labour want the may election appear to be a vote on independence before we see what the s.n.p. can do in power?

#13. I went to a comprehensive school in England (late 1970s). In history, we learnt about Adam Smith, the Enlightenment, the civil war (which obviously involved Scots as a certain Mr Charles Stuart was mixed up in it all), the American Revolution and Bonnie Prince Charlie (so a balanced view of the Hanoverians). Also, social history such as the railways, trade unionism, the welfare state. Actually, not that much is known about the picts other than they wore paint. 'England' didn't exist when Julius Caesar invaded and neither did Scotland (just tibes living on the island of Britain). You see we really are Britons - not English or Scottish (English and Scottish identities came much later).

#2. Politicians will always play you for fools.

I'm signed up to YouGov but never once have I been asked about the SNP or independence...you can add one more in suppor of both to YouGov's totals, an I'm sure there's loads more!

#17 france and germany did not exist either at that time. suppose were all europeans.

How do these people know about voting intentions?
Simple.
For most of the electorate it's like supporting our favourite footbal team.

We will stay with them through thick and thin, not always there to support them in the bad times, but when there's the chance of some silverware we'll turn out in numbers.

Same with voting.

Very, very few are ever swayed by logic, or policies.
These strings are the evidence for that.

We'll vote for whoever we were introduced to first, and stay with them come what may.

To do otherwise would be like treachery.

A bit like our religions, we're born into them, only the tiniest few choose to change after deliberation, later in life.

Elections are decided by, at most, the 10-15% of 'floating voters' and that's why such a small % of these, changing sides, can create a majority such as New Labour took by sucking up to the floaters of the Home Counties.

And this is my point.

It takes decades to make the balance shift even by a few % which, for me, makes these polls all the more impressive, and worrying, for wee Union Joke.

Ah history lessons eh? The thing about history is it’s always written by one side or another supporting one view or another - rarely are many of the truths or facts recorded impartially!

Royster - all you were taught may be a lie!

Me thinks the press are getting desperate over this one ...

Royster - Things appear to have been a tad confused in your English comprehensive - you jump from 55 BC, when "there were no English or Scots", to the surprising conclusion that "so we are all Britons" ...

Funny use of tenses ... or did nothing happen in the ensuing 2000 years?

Or your school was a bit weak on the logic part ...

Lies, damned lies, ... and opinion polls?

This quote is from anarticle in this paper TWO days ago!

"The ICM survey found 51 per cent of Scots backed independence, with 36 per cent against and 14 per cent "don't know". In England, 48 per cent said they would like to see an independent Scotland, with 39 per cent against and 12 per cent "don't know". "

The headline was:

"SNP's unlikely ally as English back drive for independence"

It seems that the main problem the Northbriton has is finding a big enough anti-Independence headline every morning!

yes but look at the other questions journalists just pull a line and then are trying to sow discontent look below

Do you think the union between
Scotland and England is or is not worth maintaining?
The union is worth maintaining 53
The union is not worth maintaining 33
Don’t know 13

Do you think that, on balance, the Union currently gives
Scotland a good deal or a raw deal?
The union gives Scotland a good deal 32
The union gives Scotland a raw deal 47
Don’t know 22

Do you think that, on balance, the Union currently gives
England a good deal or a raw deal?
The union gives England a good deal 70
The union gives England a raw deal 9
Don’t know 21

anyway see for yourselves better than the journos make out for independence
http://www.yougov.com/archives/pdf/STI070101001.pdf

Royster, is it so hard to believe that the tribes from the North of Britain that is now called Scotland does not wish to be in a union with the tribes that make up the south that is now called England.

25/1 are pretty good odds. Might put a few quid on to ease my pain if it turns out to be true.

Royster it is well known that in 54ad the Britaniea tribe caused a stushie in a chippie shoppe in Dumbarton and were sent homewards by the king of Strathclyde tae think again.

Actually I just made that up, but how would your history lessons have told you otherwise.
Alfred was busy burning his pies, that's all you got.

'Civil war' - Scottish, English or Irish?

btw According to Dr Sykes of Oxford Uni his DNA tests show we are all Celts or 'Pictish' Celts, even the English, decended from the '7 sisters of Eve' in Spain.

The 'true Brits' were the Welsh but even there I think its only something like 40% Briton and 60% Celt.

You might not even be all that Anglo-Saxon, the shame.

Although why this should prevent us from voting SNP in May I think I missed.

The odd thing about this poll is that traditionally independence has actually been AHEAD of support for the SNP. Usually this was interpreted (by the media anyway) as being a problem for the SNP since it suggested they were underachieving.

Of course as far as the media is concerned, the glass will always be half empty for the SNP. everything they do will always be interpreted in a negative light.

In fact these polls are good news for the SNP since ultimately it's votes that count not opinions.

quote:
"It also suggests that the SNP is picking up support from disillusioned Labour voters rather than because of a definite drift towards independence. "

Yip, that's right.

Will SNP deliver?

Will they destroy Scotland like the rest of the political parties, all of whom want to industralise Scotland's beautiful scenery.

See http://www.viewsofscotland.org/map/

The map only shows 250 wind farms but 500 are planned for Scotland with over 3,400 turbines scattered over Scotland's beautiful scenery.

That's what's planned for Scotland, turbines everywhere!

Will SNP or Labour guarantee a Scotland free from turbines?

SNP or Labour, what's it to be?

Who will deliver a Scotland free from tubines?

A Scotland that's worth selling to other nations as a place to visit wild areas?

I hope we will all go in droves to the poll this May and vote for SNP anyway, but now that I see 200/1 odds on an independant scotland - well - what now I wonder? 200/1? that's a good bet!
Can William Hill cope?
Will thousands of Labour voters turn out to vote SNP and will they stop on route to put a few pounds on at the bookies? This could prove to be a very colourful election indeed! Lets hope it's blue and white! Let's fly the flag of Scotland and change our destiny! It's time folks.

Faye, the wind farms are a damned site better to look at than some coal fired power station. We need a forward thinking government here such as the SNP to keep putting money into researching alternative power sources. It's not all about oil and gas, we have such a capacity to be self sufficient. We're lucky to have space to build wind farms. Technology is racing ahead and we will find other methods, hydrogen, wave power, solar etc etc.

The article states: “ Mr Salmon did receive a boost yesterday with the backing of Crawford Beveridge, a former chief executive of Scottish Enterprise. ‘Scotland is just as capable of running its own affairs as any other country,’ he said.” So that is the problem the Scottish people do not think they are capable of running their own affairs. If so many people in the Union believe that the Scots are feart because they might not get so many hand-outs then they might get independence when the English voters hold their own referendum.
Another problem wi’ these polls is that half the people asked are below average.

On chances of independence, William Hill offers odds of 200/1 that Scotland will become independent of the rest of Britain within five years; 100/1 within ten years and 10/1 within 50 years.
What are you waiting for in 50 years or so when yer grand weans to tak the plunge and even more have emigrated.

It is sad that sop many Scots unlike other nations ca not see the benefits of sovereignty.
No matter what Mr Brown and cohorts say, as part of the UK, Scotland as an identity was often (perhaps even unintentionally - which actually makes it worse) ignored by the BBC (overseas service) by British (English) historians by political pundits, journalists, text books, newspapers in England etc. Now magnify all that 20 fold for overseas, historians, textbooks, news services and perhaps worse of all educational curricula even in Europe, US, Australia and New Zealand. They are seldom taught the meaning of the Union and most take the island of Great Britain to be England. Any break-up of the Union is really just England going on or continuing as it has always has ie., being England (perhaps still absent-mindedly calling itself Britain and flying the Union Jack) but Scotland would be able to claim this same right; sitting at the United Nations, letting the French know we are now definitely not Anglais and the Germans we are not all Engänder. There will be an improvement in the Scottish psyche with independence and I personally believe much improved relations with England and most other nations. Economics should not be the primary reason for either independence nor remaining in the Union. Think of Greece, Belgium and a hosts of other nations who won their freedom; it was not “how much we can cream by not being sovereign’ It was give us our freedom and let us together forge a new destiny and take our place raising our own voice among the nations of the world.
Some say many of these notions are petty and romantic but strangely when England exhibits these same sentiments as in ‘There always be an England,’ they are just understandably proudly nationalistic.

200/1 WOW PUT A £10 ON GET THE SNP TO GIVE EVERY ONE A BETTING SLIP WHO VOTE FOR THEM £200 A VOTE THERE THE ANSWER.
I CANT SPELL BUT YE CANT B GOOD AT EVERYTING
K I S S
KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID

NO OFFENCE TO ANY ONE ONLY THE LACK OF LABOUR PARTY

ROB NZ YOU CAN COME HOME FOR A HOLIDAY
WILLIAM HILL STYLE

Another disadvantage we in New Zealand suffer, Mr Brown, for all the years Westminster never informed the World what the United Kingdom meant or what and where Scotland was, is that our local TAB (betting shops) is not giving the odds (or any odds) on independence one can get in Britain. Surely it must be worth a bet at all those odds for the wise punters to get their bets on and than change their politics; all those traditional ‘candy mint’ Labour supporters voting SNP and for independence to make a quick ‘Lady Godiva.

9. Eve, Scotland
“On chances of independence, William Hill offers odds of 200/1”
Lets put a bet on (& vote for independence) with odds like that, we could make a lot of money out of the bookies by proving them wrong.”
How do all us exiles get a piece of the action? Can you not set up a fund or something. Hey Bill, Eve, you can take a cut I’ll be happy with 180/1.

Hey Royster and Media 1
Want a piece of the action?

ROB EVERYTHING HAS A DOT COM

DONT FORGET MY COMMISON
COPY RIGHT ECT

17. Royster
That was a good grounding you had in parts of British history and quite different from the old ‘British’ history books I have picked up over the years. I have umpteen (which I will list one day) and most treat or take for granted Britain to mean England. You must have had an enlightened teacher and one of a kind. The image we get from watching UK ‘Who Wants to be a Millionaire’ is that very few Brits know their history. The ignorance at times has been embarrassing. As I have said before, any break-up of the Union is really just England going on or continuing as it has always has ie., being England (perhaps still absent-mindedly calling itself Britain and flying the Union Jack) but Scotland would be able to claim this same right; sitting at the United Nations, letting the French know we are now definitely not Anglais and the Germans we are not all Engänder. There will be an improvement in the Scottish psyche with independence and I personally believe much improved relations with England and most other nations. Those who think mainly of money or economics (not by any means a true science) will always give dire predictions concerning any changes (many successful businesses and millionaires are that because they ignored all the doomsayers and pessimists) Entrepreneurs and successful people strive and do - Scots can become more successful, making their own decisions.

Great posts today.

I arrived here from Scotland nearly 25 years ago, and am more for independence now than when I lived in Scotland.

Forget the doomsayers, Scotland will be stronger for self rule. All around the world larger nation states are fracturing into smaller ones and then joining a larger economic structure under their terms.

Sure there will be a hic-up or two but the future will be bright.

Agriculture and seafoods,Oil, Consumer goods, a highly educated society added to that a small and relatively orderly population

We could be doing better than Switzerland. Hopefully Scotland will stop feeling sorry for itself,get the chip in the shoulder fixed, and grow up.

C'mon Scotland, vote for freedom. Freedom of choice.

I am a proud Scot. I am also proud to be British.
The little Englanders and their counterparts in Scotland maybe need to get away from there ain fireside for a bit and see the union in a different perspective.
I personally am very glad that we absorbed England when James V1 became King of England and want to keep them.
Bet I am in the majority too.....

47. Dekester, Canada's west coast
“ I arrived here from Scotland nearly 25 years ago, and am more for independence now than when I lived in Scotland.”

Thanks for an enthusiastic and optimistic post. All so true as you, I and thousands of other Scots abroad,
who have experience of both sovereignty and dependence know the former is preferable.
Gordon Brown must know that as a nation Scotland, his nation is not recognise by most of the world’s people but still attempts as in the words of the Lairdies prayer, “Though ma name’s McPhee, Lord let me be as English as yersel"
If the exiled Scots could vote the SNP would likely romp in but Scotland’s problem is those who will not read study or discuss politics but feel, "hey if ma great granda voted Labour an’ it wis guid enough fur him, then it’ll dae me, ma family awis voted Labour , so they huv." Sadly they then believe “If wur in ra Union we get mair money so Labour tellt us, ‘n thets fer me, Jimmy”.

48. Auld Tam, Azerbaijan
Oh for goodness sake Tam, if you’re living in Azerbaijan, away out and ask the locals if they’ve heard of England (yes) then ask if they’ve heard of Scotland (no) - the truth now mind and you think Scotland absorbed England well then we definitely need a new PR or advertising manager.

Well Robbie when I was in the Caledonia bar in Baku the other night having my mince and tatties quite a few of the locals seemed to have heard of Scotland.
Dont know how much they care though as some of them were shouting for Celtic while the match was on. Maybe they are wannabe Irishmen?
One told me that he thought Celtic had played "no bad"
Nuffsaid mate.

I took part in the latest YouGov poll, but I don't see the Scotsman giving the answers to the questions about which politicians were most trustworthy, etc.

51 Auld Tam, Azerbaijan
",,,,the locals (in Azerbaijan) seemed to have heard of Scotland.”
A great experience for you but if we started relaying stories of nationalities and people who know nothing about Scotland we’d be here for ever. Still how much over this part of the world do we know about Azerbaijan. Isn’t it part of the USSR or wait a minute didn’t that get split up when lots of poor miserable countries got their freedom? Are they trying to put it together again?

"In 1990, the Azerbaijani people gathered to protest Soviet rule and push for independence. The demonstrations were brutally suppressed by Soviet intervention in what Azeris today refer to as Black January." Wikipedia

And the Scots only have to vote, eh Tam?

THere is no such thing as democracy, it's a myth. The English dominated media (including the Scotsman) will spew forth anti-indpendence propaganda in various forms between now and the election. Was it Standard Death that told its employees in 1997 that, if SNP won, they would leave Scotland?

The French have the right idea: no polls during the run up to an election. They can be used as propaganda (as as we see here: post 26 & 28)

WHile Finland is no Utopia, it is looking after its own affairs. Yes, business globalisation is interfering but overal Finland does quite well with very few natural resources. The (little) money they have is spread more evenly and the 'poor areas' here are luxurious compared to Pilton etc.

This should be no great surprise - it is what happened in Quebec, after all.

I think that this result reflects the fact that our devolved executive has been too willing to slavishly follow the UK line. There is a lot more that could be done to fulfil Donald Dewar's vision of "Scottish solutions to Scottish problems" within the currently available powers, if we had politicians with more guts to stand up to Westminster.

Moreover, the less Scotland is taken for granted, the more we stand to gain. The tories did lots of daft things to Scotland, but they certainly propped up our public expenditure in a forlorn attempt to make us like them. London Labour takes us for granted, and we should put the frighteners on them.

55. WeeBerty
This "Scotland will soon be independent" fantasy has been seen time and time and time again.
It has never happened and will not in the near future. The people who say the above sort rubbish are an embarassment [sic] .
With an argument and logic like that you almost had me convinced.
Put another way, the "nearer" the SNP are to independence the FURTHER they go from it. Put otherwise, people STOP voting it when they think the SNP are doing too well.””
On the other hand. Berty - you have different fingers.
And your vision for Scotland and the UK is………..?

Has anyone noticed how firendly and soft spoken Mr. Brown has just become. Wonder if hes got the same PR agent as the Beckhams.

Im pro Independence, but its sickening to watch our current country the "UK" (Why does UK sound much better than British?) being glamorised like our American freinds. I half expect everyone listening to Brown waving union jacks shouting woop woop woop while fire works go off to God save the queen.

Im Changing my Vote From labour To SNP because of The Mess they have Put the NHS in,END,Most of my family in England Will Change from labour to,Tory.
The comments of Brown Supporting Thatcher is Unforgivable,labour have shot themselves in foot,

I'm backing the favourite horse to win this race!

59. Rulesbutnotrulers, East Lothian No independence, please. We're British!
There are many poster who never read previous posts and put forward point and arguments already covered but this really goes back some. Your question “ Why vote SNP? Only one reason:”
You’re still asking why? After all this time. Have you not been reading the posts from around the world for months and months (if not years and years)? No! Well if you ask nicely there are simply lots and lots of sensible, smart independence supporters who will enlighten you or at list give you their viewpoint with which you can reply with your viewpoint and show why Scots differ from other nations. Merely asking, “Why vote SNP? “ brings the debate back to the stage it was about when I first went into longs in the 1950s.

The May election is about who governs Scotland -not a vote for independence.If the SNP make a good job of it ,then we can vote for or against an independent Scotland.

#62

Why is the SNP a protest vote, what are we protesting about?

Take away the independence policy (usually in the bottom corner of the 5th page of their manifesto) and you will find that the SNP are just another 2 bob tax & spend socialist rabble.

That's a fact.

London Is panicking ,And its Amusing To see Labour Unionists MSPs In a Flap. Dont labour have a brain of their own without Londons hand up their Close!

#43 Robbie, well it would have to coordinated which would obviously raise suspicion and make the bet void. Every voter would have to hit the 25/1 odds more or less at the same time (though I'm sure William Hill as a computer to match bets or something like that). We could all go out and vote SNP and then wrong-foot them with a vote to stay in the union. William Hill would, of course, go bust.

talking of media propaganda just heard the BBC's Good mornign Scotland (a programme I seldom listen to and now know why) the presenter spoke to Nicol stephen and Dougals alexander -both against independence

then said at the end of interviews "we willl continue to question both sides of the argument".....

eh the cheek they just talked to 2 slippery unionist with zero attempt at balance where was the voice to point out the rubbish these guys talked ... it made GMS word seem like rubbish too

Most of my family live In England ,And the feedback They are getting ,Is that the English are taking stock ,people are moving back to Tory ,And an early general election sounds on the cards ,They Dont want Brown as PM,
The Unionist in Scotland ranting Has made the English even more determined to Try Dump Scotland Wether Scots want it or not,
The damage is Done ,And i find the Unionist rantings offensive Now.

Anyone remember the old song (around the seventies, I think) 'You can't get me I'm part of the union..' ? That should be the rallying call of all of us who wish to see us remain united. Divided we fall.

For God's sake put Rob Roy and Robert the Bruce behind you and face the future not the past.

R
obert bruce behind you and get on with the future.

Scots....Do you want to stay united to a country which :-
a) Often refuses to take your Scots money ( whilst you willingly accept theirs?)
b) Whose citizens call the UK " England " ?
c) Where the most important item on the UK National news in June 2006, was not the deaths of British soldiers in Iraq, but the foot complaint of an English footballer, who turned out to be nothing more than a highly paid thug?
d) Where the BRITISH army is referred to as "English" ( England expects every man etc )
e) Where in TV documentaries, the Queen of Great Britain is known as the Queen of England.
f) Whose citizens are up in arms about Scots MP's now voting on purely English matters in Westminster, and who seem to be completely oblivious to the fact that English MP's have been voting on Scottish issues sice 1st May 1707 ?
g) On NATIONAL UK tv, the North West is apparently around Lancashire, the North east is apparently around Newcastle.

If you are happy to stay united to a country which treats Scotland like something the cat dragged in, then continue to vote Labour / Tory / Liberal etc. However if you have had enough of your country being treated as a colony of mighty imperial England, then you know how to vote on 3rd May

62. WeeBerty / 7:52am 15 Jan 2007
“ Robbie, you CLAIM to be from NZ. Yes? So who are u? How did u get to NZ like? Why did u go there?”
WeeBerty, are you with MI5? Are you really BigJose from Cowcaddens?
Robie, how many names are u using on here? How many counctries [sic] do u claim to come from? Do u know where NZ is on the map. How did u get to NZ like? Why did u go there?”
Nope you got me beat I can’t fathom your line of inquisition. Why would I CLAIM to be in NZ when I’m not? Just a very wishful dreamer? Actually I got here by ship the, Achille Laura(an interesting story remember it was boarded by pirates - (it will all be in my memoirs) Why did I come (you are an nosey little poster). I met a NZ champion ladies netball team in Germany and they adopted me as a mascot and toy boy (young, handsome and virile then) until they tired of me and put me out to stud, but with so much time on my hands (you guessed it wasn’t in much demand by then) I found the ‘Scotsman’ forums.
“How many names are u using on here? “ This one got me as I cannot change my name from Robbie. If you can, let me know how as I fancy, Troy or Hercules or Bruce Baby. Maybe those that pay for the service are locked in, would that be it Berty.
As for your a half-wit remark…I don’t like making assumption about people that I don’t know or ever making personal insinuations about the mental capabilities of fellow posters.
I disagree with various posters but I do not insulted them as I may be agreeing with them on a different forum.
Two of my favourite maxims, W are all ignorant (half-wits) but on different subjects. (Mark Twain)
Everyone you meet (especially on Scotsman forums) knows something you don’t - learn from them. (BigJose from Cowcaddens)

R
obert bruce behind you and get on with the future.

-Al Capone

We can only get on with the present Al, but we can plan for the future.

As for your sentiment, what guff I'm afraid. It is only you that has brought up 2 historical figures and trying to push the emotional button. I think you'll find most Scots people fairly forward thinking.

Besides, what is wrong with acknowledging powerful and iconic figures past and present that have done more for the Scottish psyche than the lame wasters in Westmonster? At least they inspire (except Rob Roy who was a cattle rustler and I'm not sure why you brought him up, where william Wallace might have been a better hollywood character to use). You could have, however, used umpteen different Scots that have shaped the world, not just Scotland of course.

#48 Auld Tam, here's what "proud Scot" King James VI had to say about his countrymen after he cleared off to London at the first opportunity

"with time become but as Cumberland and Northumberland, and those other remote and Northern Shires... they as other Northerne Countreys will be seldome seen and saluted by their King, and that as it were but in a posting or hunting journey"

Like the majority of Royal Stuarts he was looking after number one with scant regard for the people of Scotland.

In a nutshell its all a mess of Labours making especially the fool Brown - it has to be amusing its all coming back to haunt him - what a mess he has helped create for himself, in his own backyard and his adopted fiefdom of England ! You couldnt make it up - and what a nice, softly spoken, almost home counties twang to his accent now !

dear Al Capone
I take it you want the EU to unite with a Euroepan gov in Brussels or Rome...
or is it a global gov in Washingtioin or a Caliphate in Saudi Arabia you'd prefer

Me I am not afraid of diversity... like the Scandinavians I could cope and thrive with 4 independent states in what was the UK.

Slogans like united we stand divided we fall remind of the American comedian Emo Philips
NO SLOGANS ..NO MORONIC GENERALISATIONS

I would also question why the BBC use the word "separatism", which is an emotive an perjorative term used by unionists to give a false impression of isolationism. Why can't they talk about "independence", as they would do were they referring to any other nation in the world.

The unionist controled media I can understand, but I would have thought that the BBC would be a wee bit less obvious in their bias.

The main article above tells us: Bookmakers are now offering odds of 10/1 that Scotland will become independent in the next 50 years. William Hill has also cut the odds on the SNP becoming the largest party in the Scottish Parliament from 50/1 to 25/1."

Whether you are pro indpendence or anti independence, these are great odds. And the SNP the largest party in May at 25-1 ! Were William Hill's people getting the SNP confused with the SSP? Forget hourse racing Alex get down to William Hills now.

And it looks like at least one company will go bust after independence, if it survives May 3rd that is.

I'm a yougov poll member, and I dont recall ever being asked about independence. We are offered a list of surveys to complete every week, should we want to... and they are open to anyone regardless of geography, and their members are from all over the UK. I assume this question was smuggled into a seperate survey?......
So I'd be very sceptical about their results on a purely Scottish question. Support for independence has been consistently OVER 50% for years.

Funy THIS poll should make the headlines in the Scotsman, dont you think?!

Interesting to see the poll results whether you believe them or not. They are exactly in line with my own thoughts. I've vote SNP in preference to Labour or Liberal any day but I'd be afraid that it would be taken as support for separation when I strongly prefer Britain to stay together.

70. Royster
You've spoilt my dream.
Unless we can get 'bookies' and TABs world wide to accept bets, (this is an international conspiracy we're talking here) then we take Livilon, Eve, Bill from Dunblane et al and put the bets on for them at big odds. I'd likely have to vouch for to them for you Unionist and get WeeBerty #62. to vouch to you Unionist for me (his my next door neighbour ). We could make serious dough and you’d be rich or richer in an Independent Scotland.70. Royster
You've spoilt my dream.
Unless we can get 'bookies' and TABs world wide to accept bets, (this is an international conspiracy we're talking here) then we take Livilon, Eve, Bill from Dunblane et al and put the bets on for them at big odds. I'd likely have to vouch for to them for you Unionist and get WeeBerty #62. to vouch to you Unionist for me (his my next door neighbour ). We could make serious dough and you’d be rich or richer in an Independent Scotland.

If we do get independence we may get Gordon for First Minister!

84. Robbie
The excitement made me hiccup it twice.

And a bl**dy good Fist Minister he would be Andydave 101!

Ask Alec Salmond about the odds -he is an absolute whizz kid about things like that : surpisingly ,although he is an economist,his presentation iof the economic base of an indeendent Scotland is unconvincing.On the other hand the male version of the Alexander team was also very unconvincing on the box the other night....education,education ,education etc etc seems a poor alternative to an exciting ,if risky, shot at independence.l
Labour have had a substantial time in office and their contribution to education in this country has been very badly managed by a succession of ministers -bureaucratic,target driven,over-inspected and devoid of a value base

#66
The May election is about who governs Scotland -not a vote for independence.If the SNP make a good job of it ,then we can vote for or against an independent Scotland.

How are you going to know if they are any good at the job when they have said if they get a majority in may they intend to have a referendum on independence with in the first 100 days.
Salmond and his lot have no intention of letting the people see that they are no different from the present lot.
Tax and spend it is the socialist way and in that fact the SNP are no different from Labour.

I am not a great historian but from what I have read most Scots are of Irish descent any way.
As for the term England being used so often when referring to Britain you have to blame an American library system set up a long time ago where England was the term used for Britian and that system has since been used around the world. I have many American friends and they do mean Britain when they say England unless we tell them otherwise and them they try to remember to use the correct term

It's attitudes to the UK economy and industry like this that make me believe Scottish independence is an absolute neccessity.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6262145.stm

thinking

You're right, you're not a great historian.

http://platosway.blogspot.com

I think the SNP have to look through the history books. Large constitutional changes and revolutions happen because there's tremendous unrest, poverty or oppression within a society.

This just isn't the case in Scotland. It's difficult to start a revolution if no one needs one. I think the poll above reflects that!

91 Thinking

If this is the case, then why do the MAJORITY of English people , who have never been to the USA, refer to the UK as " England" ?

Scottish voters back anyone who can prevent being governed by the tories. The Scottish voters know the tories will win by landslide at the next general election.
How many Tory seats have been delivered at Westminster by Scotland??

94.
Did Montenegro need a revolution?
What about Slovakia?

Aren't the Liberal Democrats obnoxious?
It's not Alex Salmond who fears a referendum on independence, it's them!

Why? Because they know they would lose.
They dont like the answer, so they wont ask the question. What a shower of cretins.

The prospect of a UK Tory Govt is probably a huge incentive for Scots to support independence and to an extent this may explain the timing of the SNP's independence referendum plans.

#5 Eve ... because they asked us ...

#89 ... the snp supporters could NEVER give anyone a good enough reason to vote snp ...

long live the UNION ...

Too late now, because the English want Scotland to go independent to save them money. The ball is rolling faster.

Looks like common sense is going to prevail, as usual. I do hope there will be a referendum - it's pretty clear that the electorate will not break the Union link despite the rantings you read on these pages. Good to get this ludicrous debate out of the way for another 20 years.

I think that with the independence of Scotland we could create a new industry that would create thousands of jobs for our country and bring literally millions of tourists each year, something that will never be possible under English rule, as we are constantly used as guinea pigs for the things they don't really want, like the smoking ban... I did notice that when it comes to 24/7 drinking it's a different story.
I believe it's time to take back OUR country and govern it in a way that we see fit, People are already supporting the SNP... If Mr Alex Salmond can give us OUR independence I'm with him all the way.
http://BL4CKMAMBA.bebo.com

Of course a referendum will be won. The only way Unionists will win a referendum is to gerrymander the questions like in this poll: "I would support Scotland becoming an independent country even if it meant tax rises and public spending cuts". WTF? I wonder what the numbers would have been if that question had been about the Union, given that tax rises and public spending cuts are likely even if we remain in the Union. This is due to the fact the UK's BLACK HOLE is going to rocket from £500bn to near enough £700bn within the next decade.

I think even the most hardened Unionists, know the union is finished. I do pity them, though.

at those odds , William Hill could provide the financial jump start that an independent Scotland could use alongside all the other sparks.

GORDON BROWN today warned that the Union of England and Scotland is under threat.

The Chancellor spoke of his fears of a "dangerous drift" to separatism

WHY? Because his seat is in Scotland & the English do not want any more Scots running London govt. Brown would be hard pushed to stand for an English seat after representing his Kingdom of Fife.
Goodbye Gordon, there's no place for you as an MSP.

This poll goes against what has been clear for a long time in poll after poll- that a majority in Scotland are ready for Independence. It should be discounted.

Ready for Independence ?

You make me laugh. I will sit back and watch this fall flat on its face, for the umpteenth time - not happily though.

In this world of modern politics, hype & avoidence we all must ask ourselves what is brand 'Brown' and what are we getting for our money?

Will he be like blair and sell us out to LA Galaxy for a share in Iraqi oil, will he be green and cost us a fortune in rising energy bills, will his PR agents want him to be warm cuddly and caring for impoverished countries, showing the softer side of politics.

What exactly is he going to do North of the Border as he tries to crack the American market?

If David Cameron thinks that carving up the country and ID cards is Gordon Brown's idea, then he is either a fool or a knave.

Its the European Union, stupid!!!

All Mr Brown and all others need to do is look over to Dublin and Ireland as a whole to see what a success independance could be. Simple as that!! Only thing is - could the new independant government be as clever as the Irish government. Could they attract businesses from south of the border by giving them tax breaks. Could they run a booze up in a brewery. Judging by the scottish parliament fiasco I have my reservations. Otherwise I'm all for independance. Give Scottish people some responsibilty. Make all the wasters move down south if they want to sponge off the state and drive our tourists away. Scotland is over-run by jimmy's/wasters/spongers, which in my opinion is created from a loser mentallity, derived from blaming the english for everything. It's time we stood on our own two feet and took control of our destiny.

....blah, blah, blah......

..more crap from MacDonnell and the Scotsman.

The support for the SNP is due to frustration that the three major parties have no real differences on policy issues and politicians do not exercise real power. Politicians of the main parties in England should take note because there is no SNP protest party to vote for down South and I feel that this could encourage frustrated voters in England to vote for more extreme political parties.

I would like to here Brand 'Brown's' vision for Scotland in his term as Prime Minister ive heard about Africa, ive heard about the Environment, what aboot Scotland?

David Cameron is a Tory, no matter how "socialist" he tries to appear! He and his like are fooling no-one!

As for "polls" ...... they can say anything they want to. They've been proven wrong so often in the past!

IM not wasting any fingerpower on this one.

A silly "yourgov" online poll , open to abuse.

89. Rulesbutnotrulers, East Lothian
“…..give us a couple of GOOD reasons for voting SNP. “ Just a couple?
First, may I ask you when the SNP have used Anglophobia (many times this accusation has been levelled at the SNP and its supporters - and most likely will again) It has been answered more then many times and that’s a lot anti-English sentiment plays no part in the analyses, convictions and arguments put up by advocates for a sovereign nation of Scotland. A great number of Scots and SNP supporters have English relatives and this hoary old allegation is well past its sell-by-date.
Second, as I live in New Zealand and like most of the world get virtually no information about Scotland and certainly not its political parties who exactly are the ‘Scottish National Front’/ Is it a right-wing group like the The British National Party (BNP) or The English National Party and does it have a solid and numerically large support.
It is late evening over on this side of the planet and so this going to be brief:
Read past forums. Click on to the many Independent websites such as the SNPs http://www.snp.org/
Think why so many yes so many other small nations chose independence. In 1945 there were 51 countries in the United nations to date there are 192 and rising. Can you accept that most nations, whatever the initial cost chose to be responsible for their own destiny (economic prosperity was never a first consideration always sovereignty). Many of these small nations suffered terrible to gain their freedom (Greece, Belgium, etc., etc.) Few if any chose to return to any union they had escaped from.
Most of these small nations are more prosperous than Scotland even against the odds (Iceland and New Zealand)
And have a higher quality of living. On comparisons of Western countries of similar size and population Scotland would come pretty much last (normally I’d give exact figure bu

William Hill... within the next 50 years ! You are right Bookmakers arent daft. I dont think I will wait around for 50 years to be proven right/wrong.

#122 ROB
YE TOOK THE WORDS RIGHT OUTA MY MOUTH

#123 i think its 5

#125
Im open to correction

I can forsee an SNP-led Goverment after May 3rd followed by a narrow-ish rejection for Independence. But the latter vision will be fulfilled in my lifetime. The nation has awakened.

122. Robbie, NZ part 2
89. Rulesbutnotrulers I hope you take the bother to read this I'm missing 5th re-run of 'Black Adder'.
New Zealand does not subsides its framers AT ALL but now has lowest unemployment of OECD and is taking immigrants from Scotland each year (and it’s not yer neds but the highly skilled) as does Australia, Canada and Ireland. Tell me Rulesbutnotrulers, can you name and Western European nations that lost so many of its people to emigration than Scotland and Ireland during the period of the Union. When I was a lad Scotland had about 5 million people about 55 years later it still has 5 million people. Has it progressed in living standards compared to other nations or with Scots who have emigrated. Some may have returned but not very many.
You should be asking yourselves. Why does it appear so many exiled Scots are supporters of Scottish Independence? Because they have experienced of both sovereignty and dependence. We live in nations who sit at the UN and some may be smaller than Scotland (NZ) but we are recognised as nations. The rest of the reasons have all been given by some very competent domestic posters, (just read them and digest honestly).
Comparisons with other small prosperous nations is important as is the fact Scotland is hardly recognised by the most of the world, even your EU partners.

New Zealand has a land area bigger than all of Britain and a population smaller than Scotland’s (although steadily increasing) but yes we have roads and good communications and a pretty good quality of life (hey there’s no Utopia we have problems but WE seek our solutions). NZ has many disadvantages, miles from markets at the ‘bottom’ of the World, few mineral compared to Australia and large areas of mountainous terrain. We go out there to the world (had to) and compete (where allowed to) successfully. Most Western nations and people improve when they have to make their own decisions and forge their own de

The more i read 'The Scotsman' the more disapointed I am in its subtle bias towards unionism. This is the most ridiculous headline yet. NOBODY votes for the SNP that doesnt want independance, there are however many people who want independance but dont vote for the SNP for whatever reason. The Scotsman needs to grow up and give us some more balanced reporting.

Time to raise a new Standard at Glenfinnan? But who's going to be taking the High Road and who's going to be taking the Low Road ??

129.

I think it says that Scots are fed up with Labour and MAY vote SNP just because they are so fed up with Labour.

I can -kind of- understand this.

what a nice idea it is to all have a bet at 200/1 odds
sad fact is that the bookies always win, as more bets are placed, the bookies will shorten the odds, still if the
bet was that the SNP would be the largest party after may you might get odds holding at between 30 or 40 to 1 not a bad price.
As to tis poll it is like all others, it depends on waht questions are asked and how they are phrased.

Try these
1) Do you wish to maintain the status quo
2) Do you want the Scottish Parliament to take control of the powers reserved to Westminster
3) Do you wish Scotland to remain within the commonwealth under the Crown
4) Do you wish Scotland to be a republic
5) Do you wish Scotland to have a written constitution

#129
what other party wants independants.

Can anybody tell me what are the religous devides in scotland. eg.
catholic 40% prodesent 40%

#134

All scots are pagan!

Is anyone else like me and can't make sense of the Scottish Lib Dems stance on an indpepedence referendum. Labour's make sense - it is frightened of it and the seats and carreers it threatens. And dont read too much in today's U-gov poll, as it is well out for kilter with many many recent other ones which put in principle support for indepenence at 50% or higher.

That far from means a yes vote would be a cakewalk, and whilst I would certainly vote yes I knw enough about the history of previous referndums ( in Scotland and elsewhere) and the power of the British establishment fully mobilised to know that the odds woud still be against us. But in the right circumstances and with good leadership we'd have a fighting chance.

But what are the Lib Dems afraid of - "liberals" who believe in self determination and giving as musch say to the people? Why shod teh peoepl of scotland get a vote on this - we've never had one in all 300 years. I think Jim Wallace, Nichol Stephen and others have been in that Lab-Lib cabinet at Holyrood for too long and have lost sight of what their party is meant to stand for. Would they honestly give up the opportunity to team up with the SNP and braek labours long term grip on Scotland if the SNP emerged as the biggest party in May? Instaed it appears and prop up the discredited new labour project just to deny scots a vote on independence - a referedum in which they could freely campaign for a no vote.

And whilst we can argue about yes/no splits in opinion polls ask to the question"Should there be a referendum on Scottish Indpendence within the next five years" you woud get an ovewhelming yes vote. So what are the Lib Dems afraid of? - the people's verdict? As a nationalsit I am a little afraid as we might lose and set our cause back a decade or more, but I can't see how the lib dems could if they, a they say they do, believe in the sovereignty of the scottish people and democracy as well

Time I thi

#135 Wrong answer

#137 Babba

Why was Hadrians wall built?

No one has commented on A Salmond who was on the politic show on sunday maybe its not shown on north of the border I got the distinct feeling Alex had a lot of IFs in his mind..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolavconsole/ukfs_news/hi/bb_rm_fs....

Because the Romans were soft g*ts and so much for being a powerful empire if they couldn't tame a few hairy ar*ed "blue people".

The Roman Empire ended at the border but they managed to tame out English cousins.

#139
Back to stage one so what there to loose

#129, i know what you are saying but i dont think it is likely that many people who dont want independance would vote SNP as it is their core policy.

#133. I believe that the SSP and the greens were both pro-independance but what i was referring to was that there is support for independance from within mainstream unionist parties like the libs and labour. I have heard many people express an interest in independance but dont vote SNP quoting reasons such as a mistrust of Salmond/SNP, Scotlands not ready yet, fear that we might not be able to support ourselves etc etc

yes 134 - havent you seen "The Whicker Man" ?

4. babba, black sheep/ dundee / 3:30am 15 Jan 2007
ROB EVERYTHING HAS A DOT COM
Ah got oota ma kip when it hit me whit ye meant.
Kin ah place abet through the 'net?

Ta, Babba

job going abroad intrest rates going up and were heading for an election.
voters forgave tony for the war but when there pockets suffer well thats different.

#137 Babba

Hadrians wall was built to keep all us Pagans out, as everyone was scared of us.

Probably the kilts bag pies and rambling whiskey induced nonsense that we shouted over the wall at them.

Probably if they took the time to listen to us, was something like got any bevvy over there, or whats your women like.

72:
Exactly. It's true we've been here before with Scotland and independence, but this is the first time England has given it serious thought. Gordon and his friends seem to think the English are incapable of looking at sites like these and reading their interviews in Scotland and comparing them to the ones they give the English media. Whoever they are lying to, England or Scotland, it's pretty clear someone isn't getting treated fairly.
I can't help but think Scotland would be far better off discussing separation on amicable terms with England than a UDI, it'd ensure a fair share out of shared resources.
118:
The UKIP are rumoured to be considering ditching the UK part and campaigning on an English nationalist/EU withdrawal/ Thatcherite ticket. They would probably do very well on it, as they have little support in Scotland and Wales.

ur welcome rob

If Scotland stays in the UK We will have a Tory government again. Scotland wants to say part of the UK what about the (Poll tax) in Scotland before England? It that United kingdom? Number 10 is right. Scotland should Vote for Independence if we don't we can't blem England?

#147 it will make a difference hope you understand.
Have to go out. Before you start clapping il b back.

91, thinking, Scotland

I'm sorry but you can't blame the 'American Libraray System' for Americans' use of 'England' when they mean 'Britain'.

I'm afraid they were encouraged to do this by the English themselves.

For example, this is how 'British' Prime Minister Lord Palmerston explained his country's foreign policy to the House of Commons on March 1st, 1848:

'I say that it is narrow policy to suppose that this country or that is marked out as the eternal ally or the perpetual enemy of England. England has no eternal allies and no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow...And if I might be allowed to express in one sentence the principle which I think ought to guide an English Minister, I would adopt the expression of Canning...the interests of England ought to be the shibboleth of his policy.'

That was true in 1848 and, however unpalatable many Scottish unionists may find it, it is still true today.

I dont think England will vote Tory not enough land lords and farmers. Labour will probably stay in charge with there revitalised brand 'Brown' and the liberal democratics taking extra seats.

Bit like what will happen North of the Border with the SNP taking extra seats, whether thats enough for control...

Rulesbutnotrulers#128

I can see you are a pretty commited unionist and for me a tough nut to crack, but can I challenge you on one specific point you make?

You say the calibre of politician at Holyrood proves scotland could not produce the political leadership it woud need if independent. I do agree with you that the calibre in Hoayrood is low, but do you honestly think this the best Scotland can produce? If it were we'd be bust already. But you know, i know, all of us knw there are far more talented people out there - in business, volunary organisations, sport the arts, etc, even in the public sector ( but mainly low down in it) who would make far better leaders and administrators were only the structures there that allowed them to participate.

Such structures and the cultural changes to accompany them would not necessarily come with independence, and frankly the authoritarian and largely closed structures of the SNP and with it its ability to exclude talented nationalists ( Margo the best example) does not give me too much confidence. But at least agree with me that as a nation are much better than the crowd we have at Holyrood or for that matter Westminster.

I for one believe the process through which we will achieve independence will move things decisively towards the culture and structures we need. We will neither achieve independence nor make a good go of it thereafter on the basis of a tiny largely talentless political elite. Just read the posts on this forum alone - unionist and nationalist - to see that ( a few clowns excepted/ Media 1 etc) there is lots of talent out ther just waiting to be tapped. And we're all unpaid! And we're just Scotsman anoraks.

And I dont need Nichola Sturgeon speak for me anymore tha you need (Lord) John Home Rodertson. But at the moment they do. When thy no longer do, we'll both be independent and so might Scotland.

Voting in May for the SNP won't be enough. You have to give them a substantial majority over all parties otherwise Labour will say that the SNP has not got a mandate for a referendum.

The key vote is the General Election. By voting Labour out of most Scottish constituencies you will gain the objective of dividing Scotland from England.

We in England will almost certainly then have a Conservative government. Since they will probably have no Conservative MP's in Scotland they will not be able to raise any objections to independence.

The way to hurt Gordon and his ministerial mates is to target their seats.

152, I know it is only a name, but unionists must recognised that their belief in a greater, shared British identity simply does not exist in England.

There are no unionists there, only those who cannot tell the difference between the UK and England.

An understandable situation as England is a defacto sovereign state - whereas Scotland is a defacto region of England.

There is no way our national intersest is supported in such an arrangement.

139. Rulesbutnotrulers, East Lothian / 11:07am 15 Jan 2007
Jings I only came back to reply tae the black sheep of the family and so this little discussion should be carried on by others as its well past midnight in NZ. Really comparing European countries over 300 years gives little indication of their status today. Early 18th century Iceland or Sweden as compared to today.
Before 1707 Scotland was starving, its brains were draining, its mobs rioting and its workers idle.
And the people of England, France, Austria-Hungry, the states of Italy and Germany were living in a workers paradise. Comparing the state of nations in the 17th early 18th century is arduous task but one I’d like to carry out but you have the advantage of the hour over me. Scotland’s four Universities all built and prestigious before the Union did have a greater impetuous after, because they had a tradition of exchanging ideas and philosophy with the continent and of course benefited from the enlightenment in France. English Universities, Cambridge and Oxford where complete shambles where most (aristocrats 3rd sons ) studied the classics only and prepare for ‘Holy Orders’ (had to be C of E to enrol, No papists nor unbelievers but yet got drunk, fought and gambled (citations tomorrow if you there). Scotland undoubtedly then and today would have been a poorer country than England but its definitely too late to start on the mercantile and basic economic systems before Capitalism. Many of the great worthies of Scotland had found fame before the Union but although the Union eased any chance of a major war between the two countries it was unpopular in both England and Scotland.
During and after the Industrial Revolution poverty abounded in both countries (despite the Union) and now Scots could fight and die in English/British wars Hurray. Och I’m definitely off to bed.

Dave 141, you must be befuddled. the Roman empire did not stop at Hadrians wall. The Antonine Wall roughly the course of the present day M8 was another fortification every school boy knows about. If you care to go to Dunkeld you'll find remains of the mightly fort at Inchtuthil. Cramond was a Roman naval base. They defeated the caledonians at mons graupius, modern day aberdeenshire. i dare say they turned up in castlebay and then did a quick turnaround. the only bit they left alone was the top end and who can blame them. lets debunk this myth that scotland was never conquered, they couldnt be bothered, there was nothing there to have.

Scott 2
"If we don't for independence, what the hecks the point of the SNP"

It seems to me that the SNP have persuaded people that they will run Scotland with more competence & enterprise than Labour. They have done this by committing themselves to something at least in the direction of Irish style growth, & by the present Executive's lamentable record.

If they are genuine Scottish patriots they will do their best for Scotland & not push separation so long as it is not the clear will of the Scottish people. Real patriotism is love of your country as it is not some whisky & shortbread separatist myth.

Where is the Scotsman neutral stance with pro's & cons for independence?
Do they have a neutral stance & can they report the wider issues?

139 - Sometimes I wish we would vote for independence so that it forces the issue of our dire political situation. I believe there is no way an independent Scotland could sustain existing spending on bloated self serving cooncils (whose role in life is to provide secure and lucrative employment for the masses who 'work' (I use the term loosely) there, benefits, mobility cars, advertising campaigns to enlighten us how to wash our hands etc etc without increasing the tax take.

I am sick to the back teeth (cant get them fixed as there are no dental places available) of seeing any pay increases I am given (linked directly to my performance at work) negated by tax/NI/Cooncil tax rises.

Like you tho - I fear that the incompetents we have in Holyrood who are simply cooncilors who were lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time or militant shop stewards could under no circumstances govern a country.

ITs so sad that there is no real alternative who would stop tinkering at the edges for fear of upsetting those employed in the public sector and the unemployable and get the finger out and sort our problems out.

Is it too much to ask ??!!

Paddi

I know all that thanks. I was being supercilious.

They built a wall or 2 for a reason though and considering they didn't do that anywhere else in thier Empire, makes you wonder eh?

Actually, the Romans had a fear of heavily wooded areas and feared forest warfare and whatever tribes existed then were experts at forest warfare. The romans clear felled thousands of acres of woods to build floating roads near Stirling in their quest to head north. They also did tours of the coast and islands to see what resources were available but for some reason never ventured onto the isles and if they did, they probably did so to trade, refuel or were eaten by barbarians of the times.

Deforestation of Scotland (The great woods of Caledon) probably started around the neolithic times with indigenous populations, the Romans and the Vikings all playing their part in the deforestation. The wall was probably built to preserve the natural resources of Caledon as the timber would be superior and also posses a wealth of gold, silver and coal. Even then, it was recognised as a place to preserve for the rich idle and the "blue people" were not percieved as a threat while they had no woods to hide in.

Scotland I would go for independence, any notion that you will 'lose out from 'The London subsidy' is nonsense as we will just hand it to you through the EC. you will of course need loads more politicians to go over to Brussels, but then you can go neutral like Ireland, and save loads on the arm forces and paying out billions for nucleur submarines and of course we can send you Gordon Brown to be President.

This article reflects the true nature of the SNP.
We want independence but may we keep the Barnett formula and the subsidies from the wealth creating south? Please? Pretty Please?
Get a life!
And as for Gordon "Tartan Broon" trying to pretend he's British after such a consolidated attempt to break up the union.
He's just realised that all his rotten boroughs in Scotland are about to vote against him.
Pathetic!

The SNP go on about independence, but how can we be truly independent while we're shackled to an undemocratic European Soviet? The SNP make it clear that they are in favour of remaining in the EU, yet they vilify the English. You people need to learn that the real enemies of our country are not the English, they're not even the citizens of Europe; it's the unelected power hungry politicians in Brussels.

Only one party will get us out of this monstrous situation.

See this google video, it'll shock and amaze!

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=626125297632930...

...and the SNP support Muslim schools...vote for the SNP? You've got to be joking!

#115 you hit the nail on the head you have see all sides eire was once in the same place it was not eazy but with home grown passion and your pride you will do good.climb that mountin and you will see the view is beautiful.

#168 Zeno

and I suppose all Muslims should take off there head scarfs?

#167 reckless

The SNP dont go on about Independence, we do.

164 Chris

We want Independence true.

After that we want not a penny from England.

152 Macblog

Apologies for the typo (line 2). It should of course be 'library'!

165 - WeeBerty

I can assure you Robbie IS Robbie, and only Robbie.

Whatever bee you have in your bunnet, there is no need for the personal abuse that you are directing his way.

Scotwahay#161; You say: "It's so sad that there is no real alternative who would stop tinkering at the edges for fear of upsetting those employed in the public sector and the unemployable and get the finger out and sort our problems out."

I kind of agree with you, though I might not have put it this way. It is only having worked in the public sector ( as I have after years in the private sector) hat you can fully realise how incompetent and wasteful it is in Scotland- not just bad, but terrible. But I have asked myself why, indeed even investigated and please believe me when you dig a little and ask "why is that oaf the chief executive or why was she was promoted etc“, 5 times out of ten you will find it is because of some Labour connection, family ties, trade union recommendation etc, which all amounts more or less to the same thing. The other 5 times out of ten it will be because they are some time serving yes man who can be assured not to rock the boat or upset any labour applecasts - complacent fools against which the more overtly political appointees can be judged ok, even relatively good.

This I genuinely do believe is why public spending is higher in Scotland - it needs to be to carry these incompetents. And in so doing it holds us all back, makes people cynical and apathetic, and costs us much more in terms of lost opportunities - the real "union dividend" (or more accurately unionist labour dividend.) The best of them can even progress to even better paid sinecures in Britain

Now I don't know if the SNP or anyone else will do anything about this - and on the face of it they wont since whenever anyone moves to tackle the problems you highlight the nats are amongst the first to scream and "hands off the poor” or wrap themselves in a Unison banner. My hunch though is that in government this would simple not be sustainable and the nats would have to chose between running a credible administration that might

#171 - "We" I think you are somewhat presumptious. The voices calling for an independent Scotland are very much in the miniority.

I was a Memer of the SNP way back in 1969 Craigintinny Branch that used to meet in portobello I may be on the other sid of the world but I still support independence it will as has been said have hic ups but lots of small nations not only survive but thrive, look not just at switzerland but also New Zealand even Australia on has 20 million people And the scots do have the biggest brains, where would Engalnd be without scots inventions tv phone medical engineering etc etc go for it dont listen to the naysayers they have their own agenda and its in the english wallets. Sit down have a dram

BABBA ; according to the 2001 census; Scotland is 76% protestant and other christian; 17% catholic; 7% other faiths or none at all. trust an irish woman to ask that question! if i were a scots catholic i wouldnt vote for independence . Too many sad nutters like Finlay in positions of power. BTW An independent united ireland would be 81% catholic; 14% protestant and 5% other or none with a population of six million. Bigger than scotlands pop. but almost a mirror image. Arrange a swap of minorities ? solve a few problems !To someone else. The romans built walls all over the empire at the time of Hadrian. He believed the empire had expanded too fast too far and they should digest/reinforce what they held already prior to further expansion. The idea that scotland could not be conquered by the romans is hilarious and shows a complete ignorance of the historical facts.

We knew that the establishment would throw everything including the kitchen sink at the Scots who seek Independence at this year's elections. They know "It is time". Time to stop their selfish abuse of Scotland "So long suffering in this condition". Burns had it right "A parcel of rogues in a nation".

Tony Benn a "real Socialist" told the truth some years back on a television debate about Scottish Independence. He made the bald statement that "England has been kept out of the Red for 30 odd years by the revenue they grabbed from Scottish Oil" And "If Scotland had used its own oil it would have been able to rebuild up its industries and would in a short period of time become one of the richest nations in Europe". I always admired his frankness, but as a staunch supporter of Scottish Independence, I hold him the higest esteem for having the courage to tell the truth at long last.

Brown and Blair would do well to take note of one of their own. A man of the highest integrity! He never felt at home amongst them at Westminster!

Let Brown or Blair arrange a head to head debate with our leader. They are afraid. Alex would wipe the smirk of their faces and how!

Mac Mhic Raonuill

#173 here here, we all have an oponion
and were all right and wrong.some will agree some wont.free speech.

#167, 168: The EU and Muslim schools being part of SNP policy are not really good reasons not to vote for them. At the end of the day these debates can still be had in an independant Scotland. I am always amazed at how people jump on the other policies of the SNP, at the end of the day, the prime goal of the SNP is independance after this happens people within the party are likely to migrate to other parties such as the labour and liberals and the debate on whether Religous schools or EU membership is appropriate can continue - but in this case the other mainstream parties will be able to have an open debate about what is right for Scotland without interference from westminster

I like who people who are not living in this country, are commenting on the topic of scotland going it alone. I hear the north and south Islands of NZ are splitting, any comments folkS?

I am looking forward to an independent Holyrood in May. That's independent with a small i, meaning not linked to the UK administration rather than a separate state. My guess is that will be will be the political reality. For sure whatever the future political complexion of Westminster, it's going to be fun.

Scotland needs strong independent government come what may. It needs inspirational and single minded leadership to rally the people on a common cause. Leadership that gets stuck and tackles the issues. Leadership that looks forward not back; focuses on action not blame; common cause not division. Leadership that fights like hell for the tools to do the job and challenges the status quo. Leadership that puts the task above all else; nation above all else.

Anyone know a guy called Robert and a party called National Unity?

175 Big G.

Yes, well, I did have a mini once. ;)

I was using 'We' in the same way as did the poster I was replying to.

As to 'We' in reality - well, apart from the poll in this article, (not surprising if you read the questions) even the Scotsman admits that far more Scots are in favour of independence than are against it.

One of us is right - the real polls will tell in due course.

Currently in England, its people rightly resent being governed by a government they recognise as the New Labour Party dominated by Scots who have brought the Island to close on a complete shambolic state during their ruinous 10 years at the helm off the now certain; rapidly sinking ship.
The Scots were in a similar situation when Thatcher
showed complete disregard for them and their families when laying waste to what was was left of industrial Scotland. What industry escaped her hatred for the Scots was transferred south of the border repeating, what happened after the First World War.
During this dreadful period back home, we set about successfully removing Toryism from the political map in Scotland, while down south, they continually elected a Tory majority which the Scots had to endure for almost eighteen years of the Thatcher ruthlessness which also led to another decline in our native population once again.
This was when the Scots decided enough was enough, and the desire for the resurrection of their long lost independence status became a genuine goal. Even Scots Tory ministers were sent into political oblivion during this dreadful woman's reign of hatred against the Scottish nation.
I firmly believe the reverse is now taking place in England, where a very lage *minority* are now rightfully seeking an English parliament for their people. Many off my friends down here who were usually politically *naive* in the past are now more politically aware and are joining the clamour for the removal off the Scottish dominated New Labour Party. And if these New Labour Scots who have been playing a leading active role in taking the country to war in the pretence it was too establish freedom and democracy for the people they attacked, they should now show the people of England the same concern; by having a general election, as soon as the Messiah Blair is removed.

#177 Thanks Marty
What does this say to anybody out there about the chances of snp winning.
Have to go out again no clapping.
b back soon.
ps marty irish woman?

C from West Lothian. I welcome people from all over the world commentating, especially those with scots ancestry. Apart for their fresh perspecties it's instructive to hear how they ende up there in the first placee, Maybe some would come back come back after independence as has happened in Eire to the great dvantage of that country.

I notice Martyk#177 is palyibg the "green card" suggesting the catholic minority woud be under threat coem independence - an old unionsit ploy of the 70s. But I supect most scots RC wil be more interested in the example of Eire where they wil have seen in the course of the past 30 years relatives in Eire move from the family's poor relatiosn to their rich cousins. And all this happening with Scottish Oil reveenues pouring into the Uk treasury.

There is still a core RC vote for Labour in scotland - the very poor, frightened not about a protestant ascendancy, but about losing benefits. But even they are asking why are they need to claim benefit if the Union is so great?

Thanks for the insight no 174, you make a lot of sense ! I have sevearl friends in the public sector and would fully endorse what you are stating - I think we are saying the same thing.

If the fat and incompentence within local authorities could be seriously tackled, we could realise significant savings and associated benefits.

If someone came forward and committed to doing something about this - they'd get my vote but I fear that the status quo will prevail as there are too many with too much to lose.

From where I sit, I see a whole load of hot air and things going round in circles whilst the people you refer to protect their lucrative numbers.

I suspect all partied would be reluctant to derail the gravy train.

Reasons why I personally could do without independence..

1) The chaos that would involve changing citizenship and the issue of border guards at Berwick and Gretna (cos let's face it, Scotland would start out as a non-EU country meaning they'd have to put up some sort of barrier at the border). Do we really want to have passports and X-Ray machines at Waverley and Glasgow Central rail stations just for a day out in Berwick, Carlisle or Newcastle? I know I don't

2) I personally think the BBC, ITV and Channel 4 are the best TV services in the world, for what the licence fee gives you, the standard of of programming such as sport is excellent. The last thing I'd want all that scrapped in favour of piss awful programming in Gaelic and sport such as live shinty with Gaelic commentary all for the sake of "patriotism".

3) One of my main hobbies is going to rock and pop concerts through at the SECC in Glasgow, I always check out for news of my favourite acts UK arena tours being a passionate music fan. Would they still remember to take in Glasgow as part of their tour itinerary OR would the SECC be turned into a venue used only for things such as the Scottish Fiddle Orchestra, The Scottish Pipes and Drums band, Aly Bain and Phil Cunningham and all the rest of that crap that the SNP would no doubt describe as "cultural"? Are they also going to suggest that rather than listen to today's latest chart music, I as a young person listen to tosh such as The Corries, Andy Stewart or Harry Lauder to make me feel proud of my national identity? Wouldn't surprise me.

Please, the way things are are fine, I do not want things ruined overnight. Save the Union!!!

Once Blair goes the labour party will melt down. Big Broon is confused and will try and appeal to all and sundry and end up in a fankle of biblical proportions.

How can he make statements which are contrary to his actions. He is the financier of all Tony's activities e.g. ilegal wars NHS spending etc.

Anyone can see through this and his ambition will be his downfall.

He's no doubt highly intelligent but how many such people do we all know who correspondingly have no commmon sense or political aptitude.

He'll never cut it at that level.

babba - #169. thanks for your comments. I would climb that mountain but dublin/ireland only has a pathetically large hill they like to call a mountain. Still they managed to film braveheart their instead of in Scotland!! Futher evidence that Eire has it's head screwed on when it comes to attracting foreign investment. Can we do the same come independance.

So Harryc, apart from 1, the only reason you have to keep the Union is for purely selfish and hedonistic reasons i.e. music and tv.

Hardly strong arguments when we are talking about a nation trying to stand on it's own 2 feet.

How about, I want to save the union so Jaffa Cakes continue to be sold in Scotland. Amounts to the same thing.

Reasons Why I personally want Independence.

1) Once all border points and barracades have been built we can start a new sport which involves the use of horses red coats pit bulls & rotweillers where we chase all English peasants that try to invade our glorious country letting the dogs savage them half to death before beating them with blunt objects.

2) No longer will we have to suffer the likes of Ant & Dec, and Big lot of Sh"*e Brother. No more reality TV of any kind or any of the bollocks the BBC demands my money to produce. No more Paul Dannan or whatever his name is trying to chat up women to go on dates with some poor ugly guy.

3) No more Morris dancing or cricket loving rock stars at the SECC.

Incidentally, is Wee Eck well enough? Every time there is a photo of him he looks as if he's getting closer and closer to his jowls exploding!

YouGov is an Internet Polling site where ANYONE can join, give false details, and basically manipulate the results. Go and try for yourselves.

http://www.yougov.com

The only 'Poll' we can rely on is in May 2007! So let's vote for a change in Scotland - give the SNP a chance.

Oh, anyone noticed how little the Scottish Exec (Scottish Government) does on educating people to vote i.e. how to register etc... Just a thought....

Q1. Would I love a flourishing independant Scotland?
A. Yes.

Q2. Would the average Scot be better off under a SNP ruled independant Scotland?
A. I think everyone, even Salmond, knows that the real answer to that question is, No, Scotland (and the Scots economey) would take a financial hit. The only point open for debate here is how big a hit.

Q3. Would patriotic Scots still vote for an independant Scotland given that we would all be worse off, in terms of economey?
A. The answer has to be No, when you put patriotism on one side of the scales and economics on the other... the scales will tip to economics everytime!

#192

I regard your threat of pit bulls as thoroughly objectionable. Don't you know that they are a banned breed? To be bitten by a Rottweiler is OK , as they are legal.

Contemplate the advantages of Morris dancing, though:
just waving pretty hankies rather than those scary Highland claymores. Or perhaps we should compromise and both adopt Irish dancing, where no effort is expended from the waist up.

As for the Telly, yeah, fair point!

That's Scott 'Ola' Foam dealt with.

Now , the rest of you, please vote SNP in May so as to give a jolt to the political establishments both sides of the the border. A referendum would then sort out the question of Independence v Union.

Make no mistake, the politicians we have would be the ones we STILL have in the event of independence (with a few to come back up from London). Not a particularly positive thought, is it?

I agree with Dave from Barra re: Harryc's comments. Given that the AVERAGE Scot will annually cross the border on fewer occasions that he/she has finger, i don't believe potential border control to be a sufficiant reason to NOT be in favour of Scottish independence. Quite frankly, such a banal and childish comment deserves to be in a Scottish version of the Viz magazine. Perhaps Jonny Gonads could offer his magnum opus on the topic? One can drive from southern Spain to Glasgow in one fell swoop (perhaps stopping for sleep, food and water, granted). Borders are indeed crossed with relative ease. Is this not a (small) benefit of the European Union? On this note, the real concern for Scottish people is whether an independent Scotland is capable of weilding power in Europe. I would not like to see Scotland's economy suffer because we have not had the honesty to address the issue of 'what happens next?'. There are contradictory reports on this matter, which need sorting out. I am in favour of independence but only if Scotland takes her place at the top table of Europe and is not relegated like Partick Thistle!

#196

Or we could just adopt Irish drinking instead, no effort other than going to the bar and lifting one of 2 arms.

Sounds a bit more like it.

#154-BillyB-You are absolutly correct-The right people will always stand up at the right time. Just look to some of these posters.Anyway, how can independence be a bad thing? Good luck comes May.

Again it’s like one partner is affraid of divorce - the other is not - work it out for yersel ! ! !

Last couple of months..the Scotsman (and every other paper/tv) were saying that there was 51 pct in favour of independence and that this didnt translate into votes for the SNP.....
so now we are all going to vote SNP but we dont want independence...what utter S*£T

#195....so u think Scotland will take a financial hit when we get independence...you dont think that we have been taking financial hits for the last 300 years....

The support for the SNP will be short lived once the Scottish people realise that they have nothing much better to offer than the other parties. The Scottish people are desperate for change but if the SNP ever get to a position of power ex Labour voters will quickly discover that behind the Salmond utopian rhetoric and anti English ranting is a Tory in disguise. When Labour get their act back together
( and they will) their supporters will drift back to them leaving the SNP and independence for the droning laments of a lone piper. John4leader.

The point I make is a serious one. Ask yourself why is it that Scotland's political map has always been a sea of red even throughout the Thatcher years and for over a generation. Is it because the Scottish people are at the centre of the political spectrum?
The Scottish people are mighty pi**ed off that new labour have taken the centre ground. So where can they go?
The Scottish people are the great exponents of trade unions and all things socialist. If they had their way we would still be being held to ransom by the nationalised coal industry - maybe you are too young to remember those dark days. Maggie had no freinds north of the border then or now.
Be sure - you will return to those dark days - such is the political will of Scottish people.
Scottish Labour MSP's are different animals tied to their traditional socialist roots which is why they have managed to deliver free education and care for the elderly with the limited powers handed to them by devolution.
The dependency culture that is Scotland will deliver independance (unfortunately) in order to move their governance to the left.
Reinstate our great nationalised coal industry, unions and reposses all the social housing stock (you know..all the bad stuff Thatcher delivered)
Let's not forget the poll tax - what we have currently is far better - not!

We do NOT want independence folks.All we want is to run our affairs as WE want to run them without the constant interference from Westminster.Our financial affairs have been run by Westminster for centuries and we never seem to be any better forward.Why should we have to BEG for money from the English.The Scottish parliament at the moment is nothing but a talking shop for uneducated MSP's ripping us off with hyped up salaries and allowances,time for a Real change.

Feel free to cut and paste my retort to those in favour of seperation.

#195 Lex Luger. Would the independent Scots regard a downturn in economy a temporary one knowing they have the wherewithall to contribute to improvement as a nation or would they be regarding it as a threat to their welfare state or otherwise? Can we as a nation be confident with optimism born of our own convictions and intelligence and education?

The nats are a bit subdued today. Has something happened?

Missing the abuse and insults lads

Do you really want to go back 20 years to the time of scabs and violence? If so then jump into your time machine and deliver an independant Scotland. England are cheering you on.

My fellow non Socialist Scots - don't be offended I am Scottish and I do want what's best for our ill informed people.

#188 you are funny.eu a new one for me ?were talking indepence not going back to the stone age

#190 try the south side that were the mountain are.

#192 best laugh ive had all day.

Im talking about taking pride in your own nation.
To me england needs to let go and let scotland define your own destony.I realise its not all banners and ballons and people feel scared,
need is the father of invention.
If you live with your parents all your life would you need to learn life skills
A parents job is to give you the skills to survive
not to condition you to fail.
Who want to live with the parents for ever.

#209, George, give them time. I'm sure the replies will be succinct and may even provide evidence by way of links to the SNP website. Everything else is unionist lies is it not?

Babba's pulling out all the stops there. On ye go son!

Must be worrying times for Labour. What this seems to say to me are a large number of people who would have voted for Labour are now very, very unhappy with them (and lets face it, who could blame them - this has to be the worst government for a very long time) and are looking for an alternative. The SNP, as another socialist party, are an obvious choice in this regard.

The SNP need to convice such people that not only are they a good choice generally for such disillusioned socialists, but that independence can work well for Scotland. I think in this regard they need to simply show us the numbers. How much does Scotland earn, spend, and what would company and personal tax be set to. I'm not aware they have done this yet?

#211 fill us in what best

I hope that the Scots will give full attention to the various long term effects that independence from Britain, would or could cause. Scotland is fully integrated into Great Britian and being a small country in population and size, it will not be the same if independent. Depending on oil to provide the wealth is a very dangerous thing.

I had an Aunt that worked in the oil industry in Texas most of her life. Back decades ago during the energy crisis she rather unfeelingly "stated that rather than give cost breaks to the rest of the nation, we could just freeze." Some years after that when the price had fallen for energy and Texas oil industry was having a problem she all in favor of the rest of the country bailing them out. You see you may be riding high today, but it may not last. Being part of a larger world will insulate against many of these down turns. What happens if you are independent and a down turn? You will just be another poor country, without many options. Just a thought?

Richard, you'll wait a long time for the answer to your stupid question.

I suggest the answer is located @ #205

#209......It looks like its your fellow unionists who are the hate filled people..or is it that you have no confidence in yourself therefore you have no confidence in your country....also you dont appear to have read the comments...
are there any comments from your unionists pals on the positive side of the union??

Dear Mr Baggins, your retort I'm sure has a deep meaning to it. I would refer you to #205.

#206 how can it be begging money from the "english" ?
Its been a Scottish dominated NewLP for years - its nothing to do with the "English", - its the Scottish Blair and Brown show for the past decade !

On the point of where would England be without the Scots inventiveness, etc, etc, had anyone considered that its precisely because of the strength of the union that this was able to flourish ? Just one point in its favour.

You know, most English didnt used to give two hoots about Scotland, I'm not saying they were anti, but just ambivalent, worrying about their own problems, but the ball is rolling , they are waking up to this, and independence will be unstoppable whether we want it or not.

I get your point Wherryman but don't agree it's unstoppable. It is possible to lead the sheep and lemmings in another direction.

The sample taken by YouGov is pretty low at 1005 after following the link posted by #26
I think before the Scotsman start drawing conclutions, Yougove, or whoever, should be using a higher number of 'samples'

Sorry I should expand - Sheep = Labour Voters
Lemmings = SNP voters.
Sheep and lemmings read #205 for explanation.

Voting for the SNP is NOT a vote for Independence, it is merely a way of beginning the process. I'm a member of the SNP and support their primary objective, however, once that aim is achieved I will vote for the party that I think will best run an Independent Scotland, that may or may not be the SNP. We will have to wait and see whats on offer at that time. As for all the bollocks coming from Labour, it seems to me to be about little else than self-interest, after all who loses in a vote for Independence, yep, you guessed it, Brown, Reid, Darling, McNulty, Alexander, Brown (Des) et al, all will be out of a job if we go it alone. That particular crew are all living high on the hogg as a consequence of the present arrangement, is it any wonder their keeching their pants. Come on folks, lets demonstrate that democracy still has some worth and rid ourselves of these egotistical twats who care not a jot for the country of their birth. What kind of Scot denegrates his homeland and countrymen the way this lot do. Time it certainly is.

Food for thought (maybe): http://euobserver.com/9/23250/?rk=1

"EU threatening parliamentary democracy, says ex-German president"

"Germany's state of parliamentary democracy is under threat from the European Union which is slowly taking away all the national parliament's powers, the country's ex-president has said. In an article for newspaper Welt am Sonntag, Roman Herzog pointed out that between 1999 and 2004, 84 percent of the legal acts in Germany stemmed from Brussels."

PEOPLE OF SCOTLAND -WHY NOT?WE ARE A PROUD NATION,WE ADORE OUR COUNTRY,WE ARE BIG ENOUGH TO RUN OUR OWN COUNTRY.LETS SHOW THE WORLD THAT WE HAVE THE SMALLEST BUT BEST COUNTRY .LETS ALL STAND UP AND TELL THE WORLD THAT WE STAND TALL AND WANT TO CONTROL OUR OWN DESTINY,WE OWE IT TO OURSELVES.IF WE DONT GET RID OF THE LABOUR SMELL THIS TIME WE ARE INDEED A SAD AND SICK COUNTRY.WE OWE IT TO THE FLOWERS OF SCOTLAND AND INDEED MAKE IT A BETTER COUNTRY FOR OUR GRANDCHILDREN.

#223
I dont get the point are you saying wait till you are told you can go?

#227 yes Shireman and it's a process that's not in the best interests of the Scottish people (unless your a socialist). Refer to #205 for an explanation.

#229 welcome

Robert, you make me laugh (yes out loud!). Refer to #205 for an explanation of why your post is sooooo funny.

Babba, you mean't - "Wecome comrade"

I'll leave you two to talk about how great Russia is. Cheers!

#235 yes they can provide many by directing you to their bible that is the SNP website. Just as Hammas have a thing or two to say about Israel.
Everything else in the media is unionist lies - didn't you know?

The SNP may now be backtracking on its committment to an independant Scotland and hiding behind a White Paper now that it appears that a majority of voters want to preserve the Union. However, this may prove to be academic in the medium term:

What everyone north of the border appears to be overlooking is the view from England, where there is a growing realisation that the constitiutional inequalites resulting from devolution can only be resolved by having an English parliament - not a set of mickey mouse regional assembly as proposed by John Prescott.

Blair let the genie out of the bottle with his ill-thought through legislation - so let Labour suffer the consequences. Gordon Brown as PM of Scotland - you're welcome to him!

It's time for independence.

Sure the devil is in the detail, however it'll be oor new deil!

Slow Suffocation under Neu Liebour or Auld Tory awaits the fearties.
You can be sure of that!

213. Rosford. Spot on mate – all these nats appear to have a USB connection up their rectum straight from the SNP website. Unfortunately they don’t appear to know that there is another cable attached from it to the plant ZOG.

221. Bill-Alba. I may lack many things; confidence is not one of them. The problem with you guys is that you just love Democracy, provided of course, that your view prevails. As is the case so often on this website, agree with me or I’ll be the playground bully. I would happily listen and try and have an intelligent debate with my fellow Scots but unfortunately that will not happen as abuse will win through. Does that in it self not tell you something about our national character and indeed our complete inability to govern ourselves. If independence every comes I for one could see us forever having internecine squabbles about how to make a cup of tea.

I personally am a Unionist who is happy to admit that Scotland could go it alone. I just don’t fancy it. At least in the Union I get buggins turn – In that when the South part of the Union votes Conservative I get represented. In an independent North Britain I would have to live in a perpetual Socialist society. Not a pleasant thought.

224 Rosford

Would that make you a 'Judas' sheep? (If you are familiar with the term)

#234meant yavolt
205 WHAT THAT ABOUT

Yes brothers and sisters - I am convinced. It must be time...........

231 Rosford. Your talking history here mate. I want to concentrate on the future. If Thatcher did us any favours, it was to permanently change that lunatic approach you seem to fear so much. There wont be any going back to that rubbish, witness the level of support for Tommy Sheridan and his allies. Onward and upward. And by the way 238 Mack1, nobody's backtracking, just getting the procedures right. I think my uplink to Zog was terminated a long time ago, how about yours?

www.dont-vote-labour.co.uk

205 - Bleeding Private Sector

Strategically speaking those countries that maintained a degree of state ownership in respect of their energy industry have done well. Take the example of Norway that recently announced a merger between Statoil and Norsk Hydro with the state maintaining something around 62% ownership.

Now you could never call Norway a socialist state and in fact they've developed a number of privately or publically owned extremely powerful and globally active supply side companies and many more than we have either in the UK or Scotland.

In fact, the killing off of the coal industry in the UK was a remarkably naive and short termist act based almost entirely on political dogma. Today, given the problems related to oil and gas supply we can see that this was not the most sensible of moves.

"At least in the Union I get buggins turn – In that when the South part of the Union votes Conservative I get represented. In an independent North Britain I would have to live in a perpetual Socialist society. Not a pleasant thought."
# 240. Thankyou George and here here.

242, Mr Lemming I apologise. Ask your parents to explain post 205 to you.

#244 History? Do you think there are any of the socialists left alive today who voted back then. Life expectancy must be pretty poor where you come from. What is the average life expectancy on planet ZOG anyway?

#240 I DO NOT DO RECTUM SEX AND YOU TALK ABOUT INSULTS,ARE WE MEANT TO ASUME YOU DID NOT START THIS ANY MIRRORS IN YOU HOUSE. PEOPLE IN GLASS HOUSES AND ALL THAT REFLECT ON YOUR COMMENTS THREE HAIL MARYS FOR YOU

#248, Independence is their reason for being. Prove me wrong!

#250, whatever Babba, you bash on.....

i dont know what the circulation-hard copy sales-of the "Scotsman " is at present but hey are very adept at pulling in comments via posts(self included) which they may use in marketing this unionist paper

#247 KI S S
#242 THAT MAKE TO OF US IT NOT THE RECIEVER IT BAD COMMUNATION

#250 GOT YEA

253. sage.

and your point is?

Robbie N.Z.

I'm wi you robbie 100% time for an independant scotland.

#252 IF YOU WERE A PIT BULL YOU WOULD BITE

#253 WELL DONE NOW WE CAN GET BACK TO OUR HAROMY AND DREAMS

George the rebuttals are coming thick (get it) and fast. I'm beside myself trying to respond!

As long as we can avoid independence then we are safe from economic ruin.

I accept that the new poll sees the SNP in a slightly stronger position than Labour at the moment, but that should change on election day. What we tend to forget is that many thousands of people pretend to be pro SNP when questioned about their position on Scotland, but in the privacy of the booth they go against the SNP.

Vote Labour and save Scotland from ruin!

#261, why not conservative?

#261

Media 1 are you a closet Tory?

babba;thought you said on previous thread u were an irish woman? I must have dreamt it.

#MEDI 261 YOU HAVE SOLD IT TO ME JOKE LIKE
IM VOTING FOR BUSH AS WELL
MASS MURDERS UNITED

The one who foams at the mouth, any thought on #205?

Many scots fravour independence but do not neccessarily vote SNP.Whilst I agree this is stupidity and then some,opinion polls have recorded this discrepancy for many years.It seems strange therefore that the supporters of independence are now fewer than the supporters of the Scottish National Party,when this was NEVER previously the case.I think the credibilty of polls is being undermined here(again) and they are being produced to attempt to influence the outcome of any vote. The stakes are higher than ever for Westminster politicians and their collaboration over lies regarding whether Scotland receives a subsidy from Westminster or pays a rather substantial one is about to be exposed!
We should treat it with caution ,if for no other reason than the Hootsmon ws prepared to print it!
Westminster realises its far too late to have a serious impact upon the SNP vote,but the referendum is the one which would decide whether England was going to be deprived of her oil !WE have four years to convince the scots that the slippery slope is not sliipery at all,and just because we vote SNP (a protest vote) we will not back independence as readily,and will come to our senses and be good liitle colonialists again,subservient in every way,and we forgive you for ripping us off for at least thirty years .I half expect to see The anniversary of the Union celebrated tomorrow by playing Status Quo records and a special recording of You Dont Get ME Im part of the UNION!

Lets put our words into perspective IF the people who vote SNP do not want independence but still choose them over at least three Unionist Parties which they could vote for they must be pretty awful Unionist parties and they should therefore want independence,the other possible explanation is of course that the people are thick as mince!WE shall see.
I have only once known anyone who worked for a polling organisation and she left as quickly as she joined because the entire staff were labour voters

#264 MARTY IM AN IRISH MAN BUT I CAN HAVE A SEX CHANGE IF YOU LIKE

#181 C., I don't know anything of the NZ split but remember reading some comments about someone in Hawaii talking about separating from the USA.....go Hawaii, you can do it! Independence! remember your great kings of old! Don’t let Washington push you around!...:0)...that was fun. he he

LIVED IN DUBLIN LONDON SCOTLAND,GOOD TO SEE ALL SIDES

#267, Sir Peter, obviously a socialist Scotland would be much better for business. Why didn't I think of that!

#268, so you reckon we have been "ripped off" for the last 30 years. I suppose we were "ripping off" England for the other 270.
What a fantastically selfish reason to support independence.

JUS WONDERING ANY BODY FROM THE BLUE SIDE WANT SNP

# 267 - "a UKIP MEP has defected to European Far right"

As I understand, he ceased to be a UKIP MEP in the autumn of 2004.

You can't believe anything William Hague says on the telly.

Sorry, should have read; "........socialist reason......." @ #274.

#275, another USB link to planet ZOG from Richard.

#275, be man enough to make your point here please. Thanks.

248
All their moans could be settled within current structures ? All their moans were created by current structures!
Devolution has no power over non devolved matters ,so you mean Westminster could sort it out?
How they sort out the lies of thirty years over Scotlands true position and the billions which have been taken from us in oil revenues will indeed be interesting! WHY have they not done so then you idiot? Keep voting Labour Its about your level!

Theres nothing on the web site? Its a web site you moron.Theres a wealth of literature available from a research department which streches back years and years and is extensive in both content and reliable in source, and you couldnt accomodate it all on a web site.
Its not on the web site is a serious contender for stupid comment of the year and its only January!
Has it occurred to you that the expenses claimed by a certain Labour MP recently (very close seat to you)were so high the MP would have needed to travel to London so many times to justify the claim,that he/she would have had no time left to actually be there!

#ROSFORD I TAKE IT MAGGIE IS YOUR HERO

What would happen if all England voted SNP and declared Independence as Scots would we be English?

if it maggies 10% morgage rates i will or should i say i have had a lot of the stuff you call education

hows dublin go the have a look
or do you thik i should beg you to ask for a pardon

think sorry sir or madam rosford

#203 Bill Alba - I dont know what you mean by this 300 year comment? Sounds like a swip at English for the sake of it.

#208 aljok23 - Its an interesting point, I think we could potentially make a great country in the long term, if we could avoid the infighting etc that Scots are very good at.

However the only way the Scots will vote for independence is if we are fooled into believing that its going to be a huge success from day 1 (the SNP are trying very hard to fool everyone at the moment... but they are not very good at it).

I just dont think alot of people realise what the reality of an independant Scotland would be.

If SNP candidates were to stand South of the Border and our English constituients decided to vote SNP. Would this be classified as a legal conquering of another Nation?

For instance should Newcastle want to be Scottish they vote SNP?

274
I dont think it I KNOW IT! Its called the McCrone Report (not to be confused with the education report )and Westminster commissioned it and suppressed it thirty years ago because it verified every claim the SNP had made over their case for independence.IT STILL DOES!
Now Im selfish if I dont give the oil to Westminster? At least thats a more honest comment than we would be like Albania if we became independent
Its still confirms that you accept the economic case for independence though,you cannot be selfish unless you stand to be the beneficiary! So what is your point then?

#296 fooled??????????????
dont become a salesman

#303 can ros read i cant spell jus a question dont bite.
But change you name to chip head

#300 Peter
That sounds like an idyllic place to live! The only thing is, what are all of these "entrepreneurs" doing just now? Or will they just emerge once Scotland becomes independent?

300 Peter........ The fact that the Scottish financial services sector grew by 15% does not imply there are a lot of opportunities for entrepreneurs.

The birth rate of high growth companies in Scotland has been severely damaged by the lack of availability of risk equity capital. Even Nicol Stephen has acknowledged this and said at the Global Scot Conference "private sector funders were hampering the drive to improve the number of successful start-ups by starving companies of the kind of risk capital that could make a vital difference to early-stage ventures." He went on to say "That is very dangerous and short-sighted and ultimately damaging for the economy."

missed the r sorry sir madam

#305 im here

Think I will celebrate the Act of the Union tomorrow ... by burning a Union Jack - anyone care to join me?

#299 You better hope you never find out!

282. Morris.

Your last para is a bit rich about MP's expenses. Did not the little 'snake oil salesman' better known as Alex Salmond not (in football terms) win a EUFA cup place with his expenses claim which was about £80k higher than the lowest claim. If you don't believe me look it up in the Hootsman just a few weeks ago. I think if I remember rightly that he was only £5k short of winning a champions league spot.

Richard - sorry mate I lost the will to live trying to read and understand that lot

#309 Jeff

Thats a bit strong, I know Wee Jack's a numptie but public burning hmmm....

Aye go on then, but I dont think his wife and kids will be happy.

Theres to much tax red tape encourage new business ect it been done and proven to work more jobs = less dss jsa so on .

#309

Are you sure they wouldnae be happy??

#315

Ahh I see where youre coming from with this one Jeff, not only do we get to give Union Jack a public burning, but we get paid to do it as well.... brilliant!!

#316

So long as she can claim fae her insurer - that is our 'brief' !!!

yawnnnn, heard it all before,nothing will happen,unless

we adopt the ballot box and the armalite>!!!

#317

But wait ther might be other interested ....."Parties".... who might want to add a couple of 'brown' envelopes to the pot.

previous post ,joke poor taste but a joke!!!!!!!!.

can any body tell me do they think there is any religous
side catholic/ protestant more or less likely to vote snp
views would be much appricated.

#321

Probably in Glasgow i'd imagine Catholic might vote SNP/labour while some Rangers fans Tory/labour.

But the rest of Scotland dont think sectarionism is that bad.

No I am not a tory, but I would sooner vote for them than the SNP..No person in their right mind would vote for a party headed up by Salmond..Cmon, get a grip!

#323

Are you in Capetown?

#128
I agree with Robbie, as a poor Scotsman who went abroad and made his fortune I return to Scotland every year. It saddens me to see the lack of progress in my home country, we expats see both sides of the fence.
Scotland is a great wee country but I would'nt want to make a living in it.

Media 1,

Come on, lets try and understand the unionist? A serious point. I just know how someone who can see such problems in their country, yet accepts the status quo without questioning why their country has got, in their opinion, into such a state.

Why do you think Scots, alone amongst people, are so incapable of managing themselves (whilst simultaneously managing the UK)?

#322 Thanks
If you dont ask you dont know it just i know in eire
there would be a difference.

#324 Jeff: Hout Bay to be precise!

#326 SC: Its not so much that we are incapable, its just that once you have been part of a partnership such as this for so many centuries, it is going to be tough to get by without it.

I WOULD LOVE independence for Scotland. But I feel we missed the boat a long time ago. I just do not see how an Independent Scotland will be any better than a Scotland which is part of the union.

Independence gets my vote if it transforms Scotland into a position which is twice as good as it is now. BUT THAT is not the case is it? Independence may not work, that is a distinct possibility which I am not prepared to take. I wont gamble on Scotland, she is too important for that!!!

311
Expenses claims are varied and I accept that your figues re Alex Salmond are probably correct.
However the highest claims in Scotland can be more readily explained from the North East of Scotland or the Western Isles or Northern Isles than they can be justified from East Lothian. You are as close to London and on a cheaper cost per mile from there than anywhere in Scotland and it simply does not hold water that it costs more to travel from there. I know personally that travel from Berwick by train to London or from Edinburgh is substantially lower than further north, because a) I used to do just that ,and flying from Edinburgh is just as cheap and more convenient (as a UNISON rep),plus I recently looked up the fare structure to Elgin via Inverness and Aberdeen .Check out the fares yourself and then work out the comparison. The figures are substantially less from East Lothain and disproportionately so.plus the discounts available on a season ticket probably contribute .
To claim more in expenses from any seat in the Borders requires some accounting for and theres no getting away from it.Its also the case that you can be at Kings Cross in a few hours where it takes that long just to get to Edinburgh from Elgin and a single day journey to London is all day with the appropriate additional costs. My point is that whilst claims will vary the highest claim cannot come from East Lothian and be justified,but perhaps you are correct in that very few of them can be truly justified .That is a seperate issue of course but the connection between the two is obvious.

Well no YouGov pollster has asked me, nor I think many others.

They may wish to know:

YES I'll be voting SNP, can't possibly do worse than the current UK lot.

YES I'll be voting INDEPENDENCE, be it 100 days referendum, or if I have to wait slightly longer I will.

Why can't we stand on our own two feet? What are people afraid of??

IT'S TIME.

#328 Media 1

Scotland being part of the Union hmmm..... the only anology I can think befitting this Union is that Scotland as part of this Union is like putting your hand up in class and asking the teacher to go to the bathroom!!

And when you get there you do what?

17. Royster: Once again your lack of a good education or your selective mind is biasing your view. The English are a combination of Angles, Saxons, Romans with a smattering of various nations thrown in; essentially a bastard nation in the true sense of the word.
Incidentally there is a fair bit known about the Picts and Scots.
As you are familiar with the Enlightenment do you recall Voltaire’s comment on Scotland?

165. WeeBerty
What a sad, angry wee man you sound Berty. Don’t understand exactly what you gripe or problem is but have a good life.
173. Bill, Dunblane Thanks Bill. Can’t fathom Wee Berty’s animosity

JG

I think I'll vote for the bucket of sh*t. At least it's good fertilizer and we have a useful vessel to collect things in.

Man, you just KNOW with a headline like this, the posters will come. Hey look, i accidentaly hit 200..Wow, a first for me :-)

#332 Sanny: I believe that Voltaire was impressed with the wealth of innovation which was born within Scotland..We had tremendous minds, inventors, chemists, philosophers, political thinkers, poets and explorers..However, we failed to capitalise on the ideas and today other nations are making billions from our innovation!

That is the problem!

If independence improved Scotland by double, we would be the richest country on the world - and by some margin.

Independence will bring economic benefits - accountable government, end to the Barnett Bribe, increased tourism - but it won't double our GDP! I'll settle for over taking London as she is still dragged down by her centralist policies killing off the North of England.

I'm not a 'nationalist'. National sentiment is not that important to me. I enjoy other nationalities as much as my own. But I do want to have same sense of national identity that all others take for granted.

I want to be Scots, and be understood by all as such - just the English are understood as English.

287-295, Richard,west lothian

Excellent and well said!
Let's provide some more evidence for them to chew over.
Of the £3.8 trillion of UK private housing assets, some £650 billion (17%) is concentrated in London. Since 1997, London and the south-east of England have seen the highest house price inflation in the EU. In tthe first half of 2006 alone, for example, house prices in Kensington and Chelsea have increased by 25%!
House price inflation in the south-east of England is helping to drive up UK interest rates (currently 5.25% and expected to rise to 6% by the end of 2007). By the end of this year a Scottish family with a £60,000 mortgage can expect to be around £70 per month worse off than they were before Christmas 2006. And this not because of anything that's happening in the Scottish economy but because of the impact of the over-heated economy in the south-east of England.
The high UK interest rates are also driving up the sterling exchange rate which, in turn, is dampening the demand for investment within Scotland. Again, many Scottish workers will be losing their jobs this year and beyond not because of anything that's happening in the real economy in Scotland but because the over-valued sterling exchange rate is pricing Scottish exports out of international markets.
One of the reasons that the Scottish economy has not benefitted greatly from the EU is because Scotland's economy is relatively isolated from the EU.
For example, in 2005, Scotland supplied only 17% of its total exports to the EU. Whereas Ireland supplied 46%,Finland 57%,England 60%,Sweden 70% and Norway - which isn't even in the EU - 79% (though much of this was oil and gas related).
Whereas countries like Ireland,Sweden, Denmark and,increasingly, Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania have been busy constructing and developing political,economic and imnstitutional networks to the EU, all of Scotland's networks are diverted to London with disastrous consequenc

#328 - Do you live in Scotland sometimes?

328
The position before was that the SNP claimed Scotland could sustain itself and would be a country blessed by oil revenues .The same is true now (there are still areas of the North sea and Western shores which we have still to establish exactly what lies there and can be extracted plus technology now makes it possible in fields previously not licenced for extraction because it could not be done).The governments own report verifies this and John Biffen admitted this years ago and David Cameron has said the same only this last week.
WHy you should say we should have done it years ago (correct) but we cannot now seems to stem more from a recognition that we can,but you for whatever reason dont want to?Perhaps your employer is one who threatens to withdraw from Scotland should she get ideas of nationhood and not remain subserviant ? Whatever your reasons are they require explanation and so far I see none.
Scotland can be independent and everybody has been forced into recognising this,the only legitimate argument for the Union now is a cultural one or an acceptance that we should stay with our neighbour of 300 years for reasons other than economic (and explain what they are).The claim that Scotland cannot be independent and survive was never true and its still not the case.
If you want to defend the Union by all means do so, but unless you have good reason for doing so,and that does not include repeating the deceptions perpetrated by Labour which everybody now accepts have no credibilty ,they never did in fact,then I see no logic in your conclusions. The case for independence is stronger now because the Unionist lies are exposed and its only stupid people who dont realise this. How you can support a Union which has no economic basis is beyond comprehension ,exactly the opposite of what Labour told Scotland,and its only the most foolish of scots who still listen to the Unionists who are now saying they accept the case for independence is sound,bu

LOOK the thing is and always will be that the
english are just pathetic and jelious and love to try and govern everything and anything they can, they are really bad people for what they do, and they always will do it, they talk about us, slag us off, take all of our oil, give half the world british passports and totally ruin our country, SO I SAY F*** THE ENGLISH AND VOTE SNP LETS BECOME INDEPENDANT LIKE WE SHOULD BE!!!!!!!, p.s if your english dont even add a comment, because we both know what it will be, so just go away.

#337 SC: Ok, perhaps my double remark was a little off the mark.

Lets say I want it to improve a little! I still do not think that it will be any different. Only then, we will be completely on our own and if it goes tits up we are screwed.! and it could well go tits up

Jeff : Yes I do ! 7 months here and the rest in Stockbridge

www.dont-vote-labour.co.uk

Hundreds of Labour Nightmare News Stories - add your own!

295. Richard, west Lothian: -
A marathon task and an excellent piece of work, congratulations. Some of us will have read your work in its entirety and some may even have enjoyed it. I regret the majority will not read all your work and many will not understand its importance. May I respectfully suggest you make a simple precise for general consumption.
I note also that an update of the Scottish contribution to the UK and the lies told by the various parties are fully exposed in a paper by the SNP - Scotland in Surplus – Past, Present and Future. Another excellent piece of work. I strongly recommend all who would like to see Scotland regain its freedom, read this document and try to pass on the information to other Scots. If that doesn’t convince them “It’s Time” then they deserve to remain Serfs of Westminister.

275. Richard,
Richard even if Rulesbutnotrulers does read ‘The Big Lie’ he most likely won’t answer questions on it.
Whatever you ask, he might say give me a reason for voting SNP or for Scotland taking its place at the UN with all those other small prosperous sovereign nations. (He gives no or poor reasons why Scotland is different from other lands). Living so far from Scotland and Europe (not next door to Wee Berty) I asked Rulesbutnotrulers, “….can you name any Western European nations that have lost so many of their people to emigration than Scotland and Ireland (or death in the case of the Irish potato famine) during the period of the Union” I’m still waiting. In the 1950s Scotland had about 5 million people about 55 years later it still has 5 million people. Scotland loses a high proportion of its highly skilled and educated people. If it was united in, and believed in, forging its own destiny (as MOST nations) then many of these people would stay and some might even return.
Such high emigration alone of your most experienced workers and professionals is worth having doubts about the Union

What Unionists ca't accept is that there has ALWAYS been an independence movement since 1707!

Please accept that for some people this is a good enough reason.

For others (mea culpa) from a traditional Scottish Catholic family, it was all about Labour!
What Labour have done to pee off people in this neck of the woods is to become as those they would replace. I.e to become pale pink Tories to court favour with the real rules of the UK - a.k.a. 'The City'.

The Labour Party since inception traditionally supported home rule for Ireland AND Scotland.
They have reneged on the second part.

This is why gradually, but inevitably they are losing a lot of Traditional support.
I always supported independence for Scotland, but paradoxically was a member of Labour for years (joined around the same time as Gorgeous George).
The day I tore up my Party Card was when an ex-Tory Lawyer was put up as a candidate in 1988.
I could see the changes a comin and would have no truck. I was not alone.

Now populated by bedwetters such as the Alexander Sisters, failed Stalinists such as Reid, serial cheats such as Mandelson and out and out Christian Democrats(as in the Right Wing German version) such as Blair and Brown, Home Rule will never be delivered.

What these people cannot understand is that it just doesnt all just come down to economics - although the McCrone report says it all really.

I've happily voted SNP since, and will continue to do so until Independence is delivered. The SNp should work will all parties to deliver this above all else, but first they must secure Holyrood.

I'm not anti-Business - as am all in favour of a business friendly economy, as thats what will drive the engine.

Why is it Scots dont want to rule themselves but are happy to rule others?

A simple question.

Answeres on a ballot slip in May 2007 - Please!

329. Morris.

Thanks for your reply. While I accept that there are going to be geographical differences which will affect MP's expenses I do not think that explains the whole picture. The Western Isles I'll buy that (not literally) they are held to ransom by everyone when it comes to travel. The North East I am not so sure about that and that it would make 10's of thousands of £££ difference.

My Problem with Salmond is that he slags everyone else and I just don't think he is whiter than white (sorry if that non pc remark offends anyone but Iam ancient). Gordon Brown And John Reid (a fan of neither) had expenses around the £120k mark and we Alex manages £176k. I just don't accept that there is that difference in travel costs over a year.

In fairness to Salmond (which I am not prone to) it is symptomatic of all politicians that they just must get their snouts in the trough, while telling us why we are missing an opportunity if we don't vote for them. Sorry Morris, a pox on all their houses.

Ah yes,
From upon painfully and sore bended knee do we see the 'Legions of the Union' rise cowed and bent from their small pigeon-holed minds,for the 'silks and knaves' have have spied a glimmering ray of sun from the Quaterdeck of the 'good ship U.K.,
Well all I can think is
"For those in peril on the Sea"

261. Media 1, cape town
“ As long as we can avoid independence then we are safe from economic ruin.”
Morning (in NZ) Media. Name all the other small independent Western countries that are experiencing ‘economic ruin’? Is it Finland, Iceland, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Belgium, Luxemburg, Netherlands, Switzerland, New Zealand.
No matter how many times or who one asks no response to: do you think Scotland and Scots, unlike other small countries and people, incapable of running their own affairs?

#343

As in up-market Hampshire Stockbridge?

Richard,#351 Have read the big lie, but like the McCrone report is very out of date, and in some respects it doesn't help our chances to become independent. At the moment the royalties on oil fields have been halved or wiped out to make the oil companies keep those rigs worth pumping. As for the corparation tax, this shouldn't be pushed, as our own SNP are set to get rid of it and reduce the profit on the oil fields as regards this tax.

Robbie,#352 Out of the countries you talked about there are oil producers who also have high taxes, there are tax havens, one is like a paradise, and one has money because it is belgium with the european goverment with the money that goes with that.

333 - Robbie

It needed saying - sure you'd have done the same for me.

335 - 2 dogs!

Well done, but keep it quiet - we've just about lost all the 'hunner bagger' remarks. ;)

342 - Media 1 - are you OK? You sound ALMOST reasonable! (in this post anyway) Of course it COULD go awry, but it could also go very well.

That apart, aren't you defying gravity with the remark? :D

296. Lex Luger, Ringside
“ I just don’t think a lot of people realise what the reality of an independent Scotland would be.”
Hi Lex I would like to think it might me like, (perhaps with better weather), Finland, Iceland, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Belgium, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Switzerland, New Zealand.
Not like USA USSR, (it split up - didn’t it) UK, China and other colossuses, just a sovereign people getting on with life and MATURING
But if all you Unionist believe that the Scots are so useless and incapabile, that they can’t do it, then carry on with emigration and low life-style statistics until your great grand weans choose independence.

Richard,#355. I agree at some time we do need to become independent, but by trying to tell people that unionism is slowly killing us just as it is coming up to three hundred years, it doesn't sound very smart, and you complain about your mortgage, it makes you sound like a money grabber, thank you very much for helping the Labour party richard.

Richard, west lothian, #289,290,292,293 and 295
Why can't "The Scotsman" print this data in their newspaper?

Rulesbutnotrulers, you are right, we aren't too keen on independence, it will be no different for us, we will still be ruled by those in the south who are interested only with revenue from our oil, without giving us much of it, or much say in the way our part of Scotland is run.

360.

There are many killer reasons. You are obviously too blinkered to see them.

#rob nz how did you get on with the dot com

jeff 309.delighted to join you at the burning of the flag to celebrate the act of the union.here is some fuel to get the fire going.BLIAR-BROWN-REID-DARLING -INGRAM-ALEXANDER-BROWNE AND OF COURSE THE MOST DETESTED MAN McCONNEL.I LIVE IN SCOTLAND THE BRAVE NOT IN THE SCOTLAND THAT ALL THESE DISBELIEVERS LIVE IN.HELL MEND THEM.

Sambo,#362. The reason the Scotsman won't print it is because it will be ripped apart for the differences between what was right in 2001 and now, including all the things the SNP are ready to scrap reducing the amount the country would be making, making those figures the SNP published so many weeks ago look so much more foolish.

#360 you can take a horse to water you cant make it drink
you can give a man knowledge but you can make him think.

360 Rules....

I'll give you two 'Killer' reasons.

Iraq and Trident - Scotland would have no part in either.

Speaking as someone who has both visited your beautiful country and studied its history, may I offer an opinion about Scotland independence?

I think you should do it. You will ensure your national identity and that of all the famous and inventive Scots who have brought so much to Western Civilization.

You will still be able to politely welcome Her Majesty to Holyrood on holiday, but here's the good part: Because you now have the Stone of Scone back where it belongs, the next King of England will have to knock on your door to be crowned!

I'd sell tickets to see that!

Go for it, Scotland!

robert SHIVAGO,#367 Nice to see you are using Scots names the English are using to try to destroy Scotland, boy you're making it easy for them. The is enough ammo to get the SNP into power without you doing the English's dirty work for them, burn the flag a scot created, I have no problem with that, but the more you act like a rabid dog, the more you create things for the English to use.

356. Andrew Allan
Hello Andrew - Sorry it’s still early here. Didn’t exactly get your point. Whether we are talking about Iceland or New Zealand on every aspect on ‘quality of life’ most of these countries are always I the top 10 to 15. All are comparable small and not presently experiencing an economic crisis which I was just pointing out to Media 1.
357. Bill Yes I would have and thanks again.
I disagree with Royster and Media but they have thrown pointless abuse lie that.
Use wit to amuse not abuse. (Wee Shooie Jamieson)
Being paged- work to be done.

376. Robbie
Sorry Royster and Media
Should read:

I disagree with Royster and Media but they have NEVER thrown pointless abuse lie that.

#328 'Independence gets my vote if it transforms Scotland into a position which is twice as good as it is now. BUT THAT is not the case is it? '
Why do you think that Media 1, what are your grounds for thinking Scotland could not be successful??

360 - Two killer reasons.

1 The English want independence
2. The Scottish independence supporters won't take no for an answer even if 90% of Scots voted to stay in the Union. So this will never cease.

So let's get on with it.

372. You should worry about your own country mate. The Mexicans are migrating north and taking back California and the other border states you stole and you can't do a thing about - except invade Canada. Oh yeah you tried that before didn't you.

Go for it Mexico!

Richard, just being facetious.

Good evening, Richard!

Scots, one comment only: Be grateful that you don't have to fight a bloody and expensive war for your independence.

I hope Scotland is still graced with the same sort of creative freethinkers as those who helped found our nation.

386 Rennie. Quite right. What happens in the U.S. is your business not mine. Pity some of your countrymen can't take the same attitude.

If Scotland wants independence that's the decision of the Scots. If we English want independence the same applies. This is a domestic matter. Just as Mexico and the U.S have your domestic problems.

360. Rulesbutnotrulers, East Lothian
350 entries and STILL not ONE valid argument for independence ..
You live in East Lothian, part of the United kingdom, recognised by a majority of people around the globe as being England. I live in New Zealand at the bottom of the world, a nation with a population smaller than Scotland’s and much further away from the huge markets that Scotland could enjoy (better than today). NZ is an independent, sovereign nation and enjoys being so (backed by almost 100% of its people) as are most nations and more becoming so. As other nations strive and achieve independence, it would appear to be the ‘natural’ goal or order for nations and people to wish to be in charge of their own destiny and eventual prosperity.
England and the English (this is not being anti-English) believe so and have always though of themselves as Britain and the British with the Union Flag as their flag. Dissolving the UK would have little affect on the English psyche, with (as said before) England going on or continuing as it has always has, perhaps still absent-mindedly calling itself Britain and flying the Union Jack. Scotland would be able to join other small prosperous nations at the United Nations and forge itself as a prosperous, or not, nation - entirely up to itself. It will eventually prevail.

Now if the phenomena is that almost all nations seek sovereignty (51 nations in UN in 1945 - 192 in 2006) and most seem to prosperous from independence (at least virtually all Western countries) and none (to my knowledge) has requested to be readmitted or rejoin the previous union - logic could lead us to believe it’s a preferable option than not being sovereign. Statistics do not always lie and Scotland fails badly when compared to other nations. Is this always to be or can the nation and its people triumph through their OWN efforts.
This being the case give us the ‘killer reasons’ that make Scotland so very different and

Richard at the moment I'm not totally convinced that the Scottish people could stand the transition costs that independence would bring. Yes as a Scot I'd love Scotland to be independant and your figures seem to show we could do it.
Scots have grown soft in the last fifty years relying on too many handouts from a socialist government, so I'm a little pessimistic.

ANDREW ALLAN 375 QUITE HAPPY TO BE A RABID DOG AND WILL REMAIN SO UNTIL WE GET RID OF THIS AWFUL LABOUR SMELL AND GET SCOTSMAN OF THE SNP TYPE TO CONTROL OUR DESTINY

#380 Richard...... You say that "Scotland is one of Europe’s top ten financial centres, supporting employment for in the region of 200,000 people. Financial Services accounts for 8% of Scotland’s GDP and generates more than £20 bn annually for the economy. Scotland is reckoned to be the 12th leading global financial centre."

Perhaps but many of these companies are actually not Scottish but branch offices of City companies and all their main shareholders are City based. They are also the companies that are not putting up sufficient investment to commercialise our R&D output and fund high growth start-ups.

You also say Scots bankers, economists and Accountants (reckoned to be the best in their fields) are to be found at all levels of Government.

I find this particularly nervewracking given the tight fisted, short termist risk averse attitude of the Treasury.

I'm very pro independence but the preservation of the Scottish financial services industry is not high on my list of priorities. In fact, building a new Scotland focussed financial services sector which - as in Norway, the USA and elsewhere - works hand in hand with Govt and Industry to build their industries and services seems to me to be a much better proposition.

#392

Fair enough, but by 'you' I meant you Scots alive there and now, not the historical you as a nation and a people.

With Independence hopefully the education sytem will improve and the contributors to these comments will be able to spell

Further to my own posting ( no. 74 ) here are another 2 examples of how we are treated by the English

1) If they need a drunk in a tv drama.....who plays the drunk...a Scotsman.

2) How many times have you seen English sub-titles displayed on a tv screen when a Scotsman is speaking English? Quite a lot. How many times have you seen sub-titles displayed on a tv screen when an English person is speaking? NEVER.

I am damned if I can understand a Liverpudlian accent, but I am not given sub-titles.

# 394 Dick

Don't use the U.S. as a model in all aspects: 'hand in glove with the government' has a distinctly dark connotation here: the government can access your financial records at will, without due process or showing just cause, and your banker is expected always to be on the lookout for 'suspicious' financial activities, which he must then report to the government.

And another one..... a major story breaks in Scotland which will have major interest in England. Who covers it for tv ? A Scots TV reporter ? NO.

An English reporter is sent up .

And some of us still want to cosy up to a nation who continues to treat us like dirt..............

I really like the concept of having a "white paper" to flush out what would later, hopefully not too much later, go up for a referendum vote. I see virtually no detail in several days of posts as to how "independence" would be structured for Scotland. For Scotland, with only token political autonomy, there are many degrees of independence short of that comparable to the Republic of Ireland that might satisfy the need for meaningful political autonomy. No government successfully lives in isolation (just see what the neocons have done to the USA in so attempting), and no self-respecting Scot should tolerate continued political impotence.

395. Rulesbutnotrulers, East Lothian / 7:29pm 15 Jan 2007
“ I don't object to independence if someone can prove to me that it will make a better Scotland.”
I wonder, Rules, if all the other nations who won independence eg Greece, Belgium, Ireland, etc. Had waited for ‘proof’ they would have ever gained and now enjoy independence. Think of all the great businesses and millionaires who would never be if they had waited for ‘proof’ of their dreams reality. Entrepreneurs are doers they often defy bankers, accountants and all the other ‘doom and gloomers “we cannae dae it’’ “gies us proof” wur different frae aithers - jist nae guid’” brigade of which there are so many. Perhaps Scotland doesn’t deserve sovereignty, as a nation needs it people behind it and to have pride in their own potential.

# 400 Alamo

One of my linguistics professors once told me about an English theater that, in the '40s ('50s?), advertised a 'genuine American western - with English subtitles'.

Nbr 181 (C of West Lothian)...you asked for comment on what if the north and south islands of New Zealand were to split? They have been split for millions of years by what is called the Cook Strait.

Irony apart...So you challenge the right of expat Scots (temporarily or otherwise) to comment on the very important question of Scotland achieving independence? Really!..and yet you do not object to the fact that at least 400,OO English and countless other migrant workers, temporarily resident in Scotland, will be allowed to vote (never mind comment) on the future of some elses country.

Regardless of where we live and why...(perhaps it is because we had been born in a subject nation)...we Scots will never forget our country and will do everything in our power to restore it to full nationhood. Apart from coming over in April and helping the SNP as a campaign worker, unfortunately we are frustrated in our desire to be counted since we cannot vote.There are millions of Scots around the world who feel this way!

If you feel that you are not Scottish...please be fair and abstain from voting on the referendum when it comes... but yes! you may comment all you want!

403. Alamo,
"..... a major story breaks in Scotland which will have major interest in England. Who covers it for tv ? A Scots TV reporter ? NO. An English reporter is sent up "

Scraping the barrel for Anglophobia are we?
If there was a story of UK-wide importance in my southern TV area, then one of the UK reporters might well be sent along, rather than leave it to the regional staff and I doubt that we'd take note of what accent that reporter spoke with.

Scottish accents are perfectly commonplace on telly down here, including southern regional programmes, and we don't tend to get in a frenzy about it.

Debate on Union v Independence is very interesting to watch - but what you said had nothing to do with it.

What is the union for? Anyone??

I really dont see what it does for Scotland. We are capable of running our own affairs, and having our own voice in the world. We can be a success.
Lets just go for it, and to hell with all these simpering cowards and traitors who want us to remain a colony.

This is what Labour have reduced policing to in Scotland

RENT A COP
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/tm_headline=rent-a-cop-...

www.anti-socialbritain.co.uk

408. Graham Simpson, Vancouver / 8:04pm 15 Jan 2007
“ Regardless of where we live and why...(perhaps it is because we had been born in a subject nation)...We Scots will never forget our country and will do everything in our power to restore it to full nationhood.”
Well said Graham. Good on ya.
You, in Canada and I in New Zealand know the enthusiasm our populations have for their independence. There may be a few Canadians who want union with US and their Government moved to Washington DC but I doubt it and I don’t know anyone in NZ wants legislative moved to Canberra. If Rulesbutnotrulers et al understood the feelings Australians, Kiwis, Canadians (many of Scots descent) have for their sovereign nations then he/she might strive for a better and independent future for Scotland.
Judging by some of the posters on these forums and what I hear from returning Scots, there is a huge negativity in the Scottish psyche. Even among fellow SNP supporters (sorry it’s what I notice) who harshly criticise the Scotsman for being a Tory mouthpiece. Still I ask where can one find another mainstream media source that allows such an open forum? Scotland and Scots, lighten up - negativity is awfy catching on your fellow countrymen and women and especially your weans. It should now not be the place of the independent movement to prove what is the general rule throughout the world but the Unionists to prove that Scotland is an equal arty in the Union.

#402 Alec in Chicago ....

That's pretty much the situation here as well now.

But I was thinking more in strategic terms... We often hear about US companies investing to "ensure the USA keeps it technological lead" in something or other.

Here, the very idea of demonstrating any sort of support for the national interest would be deemed contrary to the principles of the free market!

360
The entire page is a valid argument for independence! Its an embarrassment to the Unionists that they cannot find a single reason to justify not wanting to govern themselves,but hardly surprising!
Your observation that the oil revenues currently accruing to Westminster are not a vaild reason for independence for Scotland(coupled to many other resources of course) but they would be for the Northern Isles (a contradiction right away)which could never happen because Scotland is recognised in international law as a former nation which includes these islands (A dowry from Norway given on the intended marriage of Margaret who perished during the voyage if I recall)and are recognised as being Scottish since Norway has made it clear that as part of a previous Norway they honour the dowry and will never contest sovereignty. The Northern Isles can only be Scottish or Norwegian and they are not wanted by Norway.They cannot claim independence as a seperate nation because they were not previously a nation , and would have to negotiate with Edinburgh or London,and we all know what would happen there.There is a possibility that London might try to retain these islands to secure a claim on North Sea Oil but I am assured that under international law despite their attemps at mischief they are recognised as part of Scotland and they cannot leave The United Kingdom whereas Scotland .a former nation can!
If you suggest that the Islanders would rather be governed by a country which is further away than Scotland (ie remain in the United Kingdom of England Wales and Northern Ireland) even supposing this were possible it would clearly be an act of extreme stupidity.They would have to travel to and from Scotland and it just makes no sense whatsoever.
What England wants and says is not the issue here,what applies under international law decides in Scotlands favour,and this is known to be correct.Do you really belive that the Scots have spent 300 years trying to und

I just moved home to Scotland in April 2006. I must say its been very disappointing and have found it quite an up hill struggle financially since I came back here and quite a drop in my standard. The standard of the NHS is quite shocking amongst other things. I am now planning to leave again and live over seas again where I can pay less tax, more disposable income and a better quality of life.
I am all for independence but its not going to be a bed of roses initialy. An independent Scotland has to do something to attract Scots back home and keep them there but until that happens I wont be back.

12. Richard, west lothian
“ Rulesbutnotrulers, You're a closed mind, dyed in the wool, Union Jack waving, lackey to the establishment dinosaur!
“Richard have you met Rulesbutnotrulers, personally?

What are all these doubts about whether or not people know that there are Scots?
Why do you assume you are taken for "Engländer"? My students learned about Scotland and the Scots - it doesn't really matter if you start with 'Macbeth' or David Hume - so that they wished to go to Scotland on their final excursion in Grade 13. Together with a colleague I took them on a round trip through the country in teacher-driven people carriers. I can assure you Scotland and the Scots, young and old, won them over. That was an outstanding experience (except for some narrow roads that scared some of them somewhat).

# 419 Dick

Just cautioning against following us too closely.

I knew that the UK has an MLAT with the US, but I honestly had no idea that banks there offered as little financial privacy for their own customers as do banks here. How unfortunate for you. Perhaps independence would change that.

I'm not certain American corporations are as interested in new technologies for the sake of advancing the US so much as for advancing their bottom lines. The government is always talking about it, though, when they want to give another subsidy to a some large corporation - which then exports more jobs. Really, what is the good of a country being on the technological edge, if so much of the benefit is exported? (By the way, that includes taxes, which multi-national corporations infamously avoid to a large extent.)

380. Richard, west lothian / 6:58pm 15 Jan 2007

Richard, you really are a tireless, and often sleepless, champion for your cause. When you are alongside ...

338. Macblog, Cambridge / 5:39pm 15 Jan 2007

... its formidable. I like facts, objective analysis and reasoned argument. I am not up for the "all so and so's are plonkers" kind of posts, so well done if I may say so.

You have probably gathered that my cause is a radical economic agenda for Scotland. I am open as to how I get it. It is clear that a great deal of your case supports that objective. The debate for me is not Union versus Independence, it is economic success versus abject failure. What we have is not working; what you may want may not happen. Until the settled will of the nation is once again clear, we will probably have to work with an imperfect Holyrood. However 2007 is the best time since 1707 to dictate its powers. I hope you will continue to press your case.

Mean time, and to repeat an earlier post, which I hope it is worth reading again, I think most of us can agree:

1) Economically Scotland is not leading the pack and it should be.
2) Scotland is more than capable of delivering superior economic performance in terms of people, resources and willpower.
3) Scotland needs its own economic policy, especially for growth. One size fits all is no good.

Administrations can always find comforting statistics to show garden is rosy. Oppositions can always find the reverse. Inspirational leaders take the statistics that hurt and the responsibility for failure. They rally the people on a common cause and get stuck in. They look forward not back; focus on action not blame. They fight like hell for the tools to do the job and challenge the status quo like never before. They put the task above all else; nation above all else. Where's the big guy called Robert?

200/1!!!!!
We must make sure that everyone knows this. We could make a killing and get independence. The unionists would have been better asking william hill to put odds the other way round.
to be serious though. We can win a referendum on independence. People know that labour have never protected the interests of the Scots. they have just used their voters. Now is the time to get rid of them and of Westminster. think of what we could have been like if we'd got independence 35 years ago?

"Black arm band day tomorrow folks.
300 years of being ripped off and being told we cannot go it alone without the union' by joke the con man mconnell and his ilk before him.
Roll on may' lets make sure there is no 301st black arm band day.

438. Richard, west lothian / 9:07pm 15 Jan 2007

Do not apologise for going on. We need more people to go on. Better that than those who disenfranchise themselves; those who won't even pick up a pencil and mark a cross for their country.

#95. Alamo: May be they see it as a fashion statement (pretending to be American)

The statment "Cool" is a good exmaple of being infulence by the USA.

It's very odd though, As I've heard that some Amercains when the travel out of the USA (& not Canda) pretend to be Canadians.

Though many people in the USA claim to have roots in the UK, So maybe it's the English that told them.

Recently, Britain announced the final payments had been made to the US and Canada for the "reconstruction loans" after the second world war. I wonder how much of the reconstruction loans were allocated to Scotland. Anybody know or is this an official secret?

we need an economic debate that spells out why small countries like ireland do better than us i found a good debate

Author: Donald Adamson

Celtic tiger/Celtic kitten

Donald Adamson compares the economic performance of Scotland and Ireland and concludes that Scotland needs to end its dependency on England

When Gordon Brown in his recent ‘Britishness’ speech in Edinburgh announced to his audience that “Scottish growth rates are in line with the UK again this year” it may have been good politics but it was not good economics. The Scottish Executive, in its Economic Report of June 2006 was less disingenuous, stating that, “The closure of the growth gap between the UK and Scotland in 2005 was primarily a result of a slowdown in the UK economy rather than an increase in Scottish growth.” Brown was referring to 2005 and the projection for 2006. Throughout the period 1997 to 2004 however, Scottish growth was around 1 per cent lower than the UK’s as it has been more or less since the mid-1970s.

Any serious discussion of the Scottish economy would need to analyse the reasons why this period was the turning-point in Scotland’s embedded economic underperformance for the next 30 years but that lies beyond the scope of this article. We can however throw some light upon it by comparing some features of the Scottish and Irish economies over the last decade.

One of the popular myths about Ireland’s remarkable economic growth since the 1990s is that much of it is attributable to EU subsidies. If this were true, Ireland really would have performed an economic ‘miracle’ in this period! But as the Economist put it, in a survey of the Irish economy in October 2004: “The most authoritative studies suggest that EU subsidies may have added around 0.5 per cent a year to Ireland’s growth during the 1990s – useful but modest in the context of average growth of 6.9 per cent.” It’s not difficult to identify some of the main reasons for Ireland’s im

Impressive as Ireland’s export performance has been it’s also worth noting that in 2005 Finland provided 57 per cent of its exports to the EU, Sweden 70 per cent and Norway 79 per cent. Future economic historians in Scotland, perhaps mindful of Brown’s warning in his speech about the economic consequences of Scottish independence, may not appreciate the irony of the relative export performance that saw Ireland, in 2005, earn more from its annual exports to the UK (€15.4 billion) than Scotland, in 2004, earned from its annual exports to the entire EU (£8.8 billion).

One of the long-standing structural problems in the Scottish economy has been its narrow export-orientation. Scotland has been over-reliant on the relatively small UK market in a period when European enlargement, in all its forms since 1973, should have provided opportunities for Scotland to significantly increase its exports to the EU. Even the Executive acknowledges that, “The strength of the economic linkages between Scotland and the rest of the UK implies that the performance of the wider UK economy bears significantly on the performance of the Scottish economy.” This, if anything, is an understatement. But to see why Scotland’s over-reliance on the UK will intensify the difficulties for the Scottish economy over the next business cycle, if not beyond, we need to look at recent developments in the UK economy.

One of the disturbing recent trends, particularly in England’s economy over the last decade, has been the huge increase in consumer indebtedness. When New Labour came to power in 1997, the UK mortgage debt to GDP ratio was just under 50 per cent. By 2004, it had increased to 79 per cent (the EU average in 2004 was 45 per cent). Further, since 1997 the UK level of personal consumer indebtedness (credit card debt, personal bank loans etc) has increased 300 per cent. Today, one third of the entire EU’s unsecured consumer debt is held in the UK, most of it in England.

The engine

which depends on England for 63 per cent of its exports, will be potentially devastating. The other problem with debt-laden consumption led growth is that consumption spending becomes highly sensitive to interest rate increases.

Ireland meanwhile has continued its impressive growth. Since joining the Eurozone in 1999, Irish interest rates have been around 1.5 per cent lower than those in Scotland and this during a period when Ireland’s economy has been growing four times faster than Scotland’s! Unlike the UK, much of Ireland’s growth over the last decade has been production led. This has had a more significant and sustainable impact on the real economy in Ireland - for example, on increased consumption spending related to increases in income rather than debt, on investment, export performance and so on. Indeed Ireland is now the second most productive economy in the EU.

In October 2005, the OECD compiled a ‘league’ table of the productivity and skills in developing countries. The UK was in the bottom half of this table. Of course, there has been a productivity (and skills) gap between the UK and other advanced capitalist economies since the 1950s. But one of the reasons that the UK has been unable to close this gap is because of the role of the city of London in attracting finance capital that might otherwise be put to productive use in the real economy.

Like previous UK chancellors, Brown has supported a ‘strong’ pound as a kind of national virility symbol. A recent report by Goldman Sachs estimates that since Brown became chancellor sterling has been overvalued by 12 per cent with inevitable consequences for manufacturing exports. Scotland, for example, has lost over 100,000 manufacturing jobs since 1999 - the official explanation for this is ‘globalisation’. But as the Bank of England’s last Quarterly Bulletin put it: “A major determinant of demand for an industry’s exports is the price of those exports relative to the prices of international

Having said this, the Treasury’s 2003 EMU Study ought to be read by all Scots as it provides many compelling reasons why smaller countries like Scotland would benefit from monetary union. These reasons were not lost on the Irish. In the debate on whether Ireland should join the euro, an editorial in the Irish Times in March 1998 argued that failure to join would be tantamount to, “Ireland reclassifying itself, effectively, as a UK dependency.”

It might be thought that on employment Scotland has a record over the last nine years that compares favourably with Ireland. Unfortunately this is not the case. According to the Executive, between 1999 and the first quarter of 2006, 183,000 new jobs were created in Scotland. Of these, 59.000 were in the public sector and 124,000 in the private sector. In Ireland, between 1997 and 2005, 435,000 new jobs were created, 62,000 in the public sector and 373,000 in the private sector. Indeed, if the relative employment growth patterns of the last decade continue then, by 2015, Ireland’s employed labour force would be larger than Scotland’s. This would be an astonishing turnaround as it’s little more than a decade ago that Scotland’s employed labour force was double that of Ireland’s.

Much of the recent debate about Scotland’s continuing economic underperformance has focused on the ‘crowding out’ thesis. The central argument of this thesis is that ‘unproductive’ public investment has crowded out ‘productive’ private investment in the UK. But to fall back on this thesis as an explanation for Scotland’s chronic underperformance is, at best, a distraction from a bigger picture. The reason that neither Scotland’s public nor private sectors can emulate the performance of Ireland and other smaller EU economies, isn’t because the public sector crowds out the private sector but because England’s economy crowds out the Scottish economy. This doesn’t happen by design - no one at the UK Treasury wants to see Scotland continue to l

Speaking of people who can tell the difrence between England and the UK.

Has anyone notice how if you look on the BBC news Website the top story for the UK is most often the same as the Top English Story (it's increadble rare for it not too be, infact I think I never seen it other wise.)

P.S
Look at this a North Lanarkshire Conciler breaking the Law (might intest some):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/6265...

First, how can we adopt fiscal and monetary policies that are more closely correlated to the real economy in Scotland? Second, how can we create sustainable production led growth? Third, how can we improve Scotland’s dismal export performance with the EU and the rest of the world? Fourth, how can we transform Scotland from a low wage to a high wage economy in the EU? Fifth, how can we ensure that no worker in Scotland works for poverty wages (i.e. a minimum wage worth no less than 60 per cent of average earnings not, as at present, 40 per cent)? Sixth, how can we address the growing imbalance in housing tenure and nullify its effects on increasing inequality as well as on the wider economy? Finally, how can we sustain stable and growing investment in Scotland’s public and private sectors?

Debates are more effective when the participants have a specific question to consider. There are many economic issues competing for attention in Scotland today. But there is one political question that needs to be addressed first: What will you do if David Cameron’s Tories are elected into government in 2009? It may be stating the obvious but it would not be in Scotland’s interests to leave this debate until 2010.

Donald Adamson is a lecturer in economics and politics at Cambridge University

#445. scottish indpendence economic debate:
Whats with the easay?

4 Comments worth, Do you really think any one has the time or passions to read all of that? I can tell you the answer is probley NO.

lets here media one argue against the expert views expressed on bloggs 445 to 448 and 450 or geoff from south africa.

#451. Richard: Your very organised. 4Months is a long time away to make plans. As a student I've still to make up mind if I want to vote at my Home adress or term. Can make up mind wheres best, too vote against the Unionist Liers (Labour, Tory ect)!

I have a bad feeling about this, that we are all being played for fools, both Scottish & English. I thought Alex Salmond had promised a referendum within 100 days of taking power but now it's just going to be a "debate".
I can see the following scenario developing... the SNP get a majority at Holyrood, have their debate that lasts 4 years or so. I can see them keeping an illusive promise of an indepenent Scotland as a carrot, to keep their voting base in case they prove as inept as Labour in handling the Scottish economy.

Meanwhile in England nothing is addressed about our need for our own parliament by Brown, Campbell or Cameron: Unionists all and Scots too ironically enough.

I hate to say this, but I'm getting paranoid in a Scottweb sort of way #2 that all the partys (SNP included) are mere puppets. Welcome to the future where we don't need that nasty old democracy getting in the way of Govts & businesses controlling our lifes.

I hope that I am wrong...

its might be long 452 but the fact is that it is better putting the case forward comprehensively rather than use oneline attention grabbing headlines. read it, it might convince with its agruments. indpendence will not be won by writting one line lazy headlines to grab peoples attention it requires effort

#453. scottish indpendence economic debate: Is there no a SUMMARY version, with Builit points.

Sorry Your essays to dence for me to read.

Is it for Indpendence or against?

432
if the tax man wants your bank account he will have it were not too far behind the usa heard of equifax
and these are not all police ect money laundering
laws but i know the us is more advanced in that way anyway but it will come ask george orwell

#445 dont tell them they stone you

#455. godwinson: I always thought it was after 100 days they were going to give details of the refendum and when it might take place. Don't think any one said after a 100 days of the SNP in power at Holyrood their would be a referndum. (Just a certain member of the Labour party (Toney Blair &Co) said it was within 100days, What do thoes BawBags Know ANYWAY there Unionists)

Hey Scot independence debate, can you give us an abstract for those comments? All good litterature deserves a blurb.

thanks for taking the time to read it. the link is http://www.scottishleftreview.org/index.php?action=articl...
knowledge is power

Richard West Lothian 287-295 and 380. Also MacBlog. (Sorry I can't recall the nbr.)
Congratulations on your excellent work. It is an absolute pleasure to read your well informed treatises on the benefits of independence...or should we now say the indisputable necessity of independence to arrest the slow decay of Scotland under unionism.

I think you might even have converted Media 1 of Capetown fame...the last quote was 'I would love independence for Scotland!'

Would you both be kind enough, if not too much trouble, to Email your postings as numbered (my printer is down at this time) and I don't want to lose these valuable data which I wish to share with other Scots in B.C. rgsimpson@shaw.ca

Thanks again. keep up the good work...we're going to make it this time!

Interesting comments all round. Two questions though.
(1) Is there any reason to celebrate this union? No one has come up with good reason to do so as yet!
(2) In the coming Highland idea to celebrate being Scottish, this year, will it be considered racist to be, and be seen to be doing historically Scottish cultural things? Or will it have to be all rap and kebabs to satisfy so called convention?

Quote : "It also suggests that the SNP is picking up support from disillusioned Labour voters rather than because of a definite drift towards independence. "

Isn't this the reason why most of us vote in another Government? because we become "Disillusioned" by the present Government.. or more to the point.. We are sick of False Promises..
SNP may be a mistake... but.. at least.. it will put us in control of our own destiny

can i ask a serious question do you think richard branson read how to become richard branson or do you think he just went for it and learned from his mistakes