Mmm.

It doesn't seem particularly liberal or democratic of them.

I'm sure the voters will decide.

Can someone remind me what the LibDems stand for?

So - it's a clear choice for the electorate. Vote LibDem and get Labour back in. Or vote SNP if you want them out. Could Messrs Stephen and McConnell not just do the honourable thing and merge their two parties? Why stand against each other and split their vote?

Dave, whatever works best for them in any area, however inconsistent with other areas.

They are the least trustworthy of all the parties in Scotland, a disgrace. Not because of this particularly, but it certainly illustrates a high-handed attitude to democracy. They'd have tried to get us into that mad single currency and were gagging for a referendum on that.

Oh, incidentally, can any of the SNP activists from Rockall or wherever explain why having monetary policy governed by London is colonialism, but Frankfurt's OK?

I'm in favour of a Scottish currency, myself. Nothing else makes logical sense.

"Mr (Nichol) Stephen knows that even on the most optimistic forecasts, the SNP will be doing well to get 45 seats - 20 short of a majority." I must really be missing something as I can’t for the life of me understand Lib Dems and Mr Stephen being so opposed to independence.
In another ‘Scotsman’ article, John Robertson, 53, Banchory
“…..I don't really understand why there is all this talk of independence. Most Scots I talk to don't seem to care.”
If this is true then I do despair of the Scottish voters. These forums have constantly emphasised that independence brings Scotland in line with most nations of the World. It enables the Scots to forge their own destiny to choose their own political future, but if it’s too much bother or they’ll just need it for noo maybe that is in a democracy what they deserve.

On the face of it, it is not an unreasonable position to say if the collective nationalist parties don’t get a majority a referendum is of the negotiating agenda. On the other hand, is it reasonable to reject the flagship policy of the largest party?

The LibDems are not in a position to unseat enough Labour MSPs to come out on top. In Labour’s 15 most marginal seats, the SNP is second, and quite often the LibDems are a poor third. Further as part of the Scotish Executive, the LibDems are often seen as part of the problem.

This could add an interesting twist to the election as tactical voters try and second guess potential negotiating positions it the outcomes.

Watch this space: www.nhsfirst.org.uk

they’ll just LEAVE it for noo maybe that is in a democracy what they deserve.

He said: "To get a flagship piece of legislation on young people is very important. That's going to be the first priority."

Asked why he was targeting young people, ... he cited this week's UNICEF report.

------------------

So its been a long term commitment then.

Its time the Mondeo men were out of here.

Liberal nope!

Democratic nope!

Uk fascists yup!

Well, we know now what any independence effort is up against. All Unionist parties will join together in an unholy alliance to stop the people of Scotland from obtaining their soveriegn rights.
Perhaps the only wise response is an alliance of ALL independence parties.
But I agree with Ted, 3, that Brussels rule is little different from London rule.

If independence were popular enough for a winning referendum to be a remotely likely prospect the electorate would give pro-independence parties an outright majority. If they don't SNP activists should stop whining and the politicians should start to act like grownups by helping to actually govern like CiU do in Catalonia.

If the luvvies are elected into a position of influence on this ticket, they should not confuse it with a mandate for a subsequent u-turn.

4:
I think it was the leader of Plaid Cymru who said that the political parties should only spend locally what they raise locally, as it puts groups like Plaid who only campaign in Wales at an extreme funding disadvantage, as the other parties can draw on their finances from across the whole UK to fight in one region. I think something along those lines might be the reason the Lib Dems won't support independence. Without the finances of the English Lib Dems to draw on for ad campaigns and so forth, they'd be far less prominent in Scottish politics, as their membership and share of the vote is quite small, in some measurements less than the Tory party.

Not too great a problem. If the Conservatives come out with a suggestion to form a confederation of states each with a control over their own destiny but guided by an independent central government, then the LIB/Dems will be nought but a familiar smell lingering in the air. I would suggest a nice government seat in the North of England, with light tram connections (airport for N.Ireland) to cut down travelling costs. I know it has been done before, but at least you can learn from their mistakes. Yeh, and Australia still recognises the Queen as their reigning sovereign contrary to what some of the media reports.

The Scotsman Poll on whether the Union was believed to be a good or bad thing was removed last week. Voters voted by 3-1 in thier belief that the Union was not good for Scotland. 76%-24%
We were also exposed to the comical report by the Scotsman that youngsters polled were in favour of the union, quoting 29% being in favour, well short of 51% which would be very small majority. however the poll by the Scotsman was attacked in a thread on the Scotsman website and derided by the very youth the Scotsman reported polling. Even Govt. Sources accept that if youngsters voted, they would predominately vote SNP. The govt. say the youth in general dont vote.(Arent they lucky)
We have the headlines proclaiming UK children being the unhappiest of all the major powers, reports say the UK is in 21st place.
After 18 years of the tories with thier heavy handedness of the working classes, tory bungs, quangos, privatisation of railways and sleaze. Remember Aitken and Archer going to jail?
New Labour(tories in red) promised a manifesto and instead set about raiding the coffers of the workers pension funds. Had mass demonstrations as the country united (farmers, truckers and common people) during the fuel price hikes.Tony wanted to copy his hero Maggie Thatcher and become re-elected as a war leader. One and a half MILLION people marched against the war. It was an american land grab for Middle East Oil. War makes money for big companies and arms suppliers, it also gets the population to take thier eye of the ball, as bad or horrible events are good for disappearing bad news that the public would react to or cause an uproar. So tony and cronie George Wubble ewe Bush started themselves an illegal war in Iraq. Which is still killing young Scots and other coalition troops. Members of New Labour being forced to resign from cabinet, Mandelson twice and even then Tony got him the position in the European Parliament. This is blatant as you get of the ruling elite treatin

If you want independence you have to vote SNP. Otherwise, forget it.

If the SNP had better leadership than Alex 'Mr Smug' Salmond and 'Gnasher' Sturgeon they might be worth voting for.

It’s time … for a reality check.

There will undoubtedly be a great many disappointed posters to these forums come May and this article is yet more evidence why.

Even if the SNP become the largest single party they will not have the majority of MSPs. Although showing well in polls, none have indicated that they (either own their own or in coalition with others with pro independence sympathies) will achieve more than 50% of seats. Even if this were the case, it does not follow that the SNP’s referendum proposals will have the support of the SSP, Greens etc. In addition, the SNP must overcome its own historical weakness of not being able to sustain good opinion poll results through to Election Day.

Independence … not this time!

Independence! Not this time, not ever.

And why? Because most Scots want to be part of the union and rightly so.

It is independence Captain, but maybe not as we would recognise it. I just love Star Trek.

I don't know why the press bother's talking about LibDem policies. After all, it was Jim Wallace who described his own party's policies and manifesto as "pre-election rhetoric" when he formed the first coalition and started ditching "commitments" .

17
This is a stupid comment.Everybody acknowledges (and I have this from party activists mouths driectly in both Labour and Tory camps) that Salmond is one of the most formidable performers in the United Kingdom political arena (which is why Labour will not allow McConnel to face him)and Nicola Sturgeon regulary causes Jack McConnel problems.
This comment (17)is not even worth the time it took to type it,but then the complete zero content of (20) is just as bad.Everybody is entitled to an opinion,but if you cannot explain why you hold that opinion,but still offer it ,then you should not be surprised if its treated with the utter contempt it so richly deserves.
What the scots think is measured by a democratic process known as an election (ie a consultation of the people) and changes constantly despite the people in the Labour ranks who spurt out nonsense like "Ahm fur the Labour ken,and ma faither wis and his faither afore him" I have actually met a man near Edinburgh who insists that his family have been voting Labour longer than the party has been in existence!
The settled will of the people is a non existent animal and we must always consult .Thats why we have elections. If you seriously think that what you posted achieved anything other than confirm what we have known for some time,that you oppose the return of Scotlands national sovereignty to her people but have absolutely no idea why,or at least have showed no sign of this to date,then you really do have a limited capacity for thinking. If you are going to contribute do so by all means but for goodness sake say something which suggests that you have a brain!Thjis is an insult to everybody here (almost)

Westminster wouldnt even block it ,Silly little scots unionists eh,

Look it is no use speaking of independence, it is not going to happen! The SNP are out of their depth. Salmond and Sturgeon are ill equipped and entirely unable to guide their own party in the political arena never mind run a country.

They are good watch dogs and I am happy they are there to keep other parties in line. But if they were in the hot seat as opposed to commenting on the party within it we would have serious problems. The majority of Scots know that, hence the reason independence will never be.

#10 Sean K
For the people of Scotland to achieve their soveriegn rights as you put it, can only come about if enough people in Scotland want it.Scotland is a cosmopolitan country now made up of many nationalities who don't share the independant urge of the hard line Scots of yesteryear.If it is the wish of the majority, then we are going to need a better turn out at the polls and this is where Scotland will fail yet again i fear.Let democracy take it's course and then accept the verdict.

You have to be in That country to get a feel of whats really happening eh !

The system used at Holyrood makes it almost impossible for any party to have a working majority without entering into a coalition. The Liberals think that irrespective of the result in votes cast they will still be in a position to cuddle up to Union Jack and rule (and they could be right)!
The only possibility is that the SNP vote is so high that it shakes them out of their tree,and forces them to stop playing with Scotland for their own purposes. Anything less than a mass swing to the SNP will be ignored by these Westminster parties who will announce a coalition and back to the gravy train boys. If Scotland removes Labour in sufficient numbers it will achieve nothing if she does not also remove The Lib Dems who will sustain Labour in power or anybody who will have them.The Liberals and Labour make noises before the election about principles and policies,but rest assured what they say after the declarations depends upon who voted what,They are a bunch of Westminster chamelions and if Scotland still does not understand that she is being conned right left and centre then I doubt she ever will.
I can at least follow the argument of some Tories which is we need England or we cant have a fat cats governmnet in Scotland so stay in the UnIon (Im all right Jack). I deplore this thinking but I understand it.
The Labour voters are walking around repeating things which dont even make sense and publicly admitting that they are stupid.Im sorry but its pretty obvious that they will repeat parrot fashion any old drivel, and couldnt possibly have genuinely concluded these thoughts because they are complete gibberish.
THe Liberals are seen by many as an alternative to the other two,but to date have been regional performers and still have no chance of forming a government at Westminster.
Scotland has a choice Vote for change, or suffer another Tory government which nobody here wants. Try telling that to the idiots who vote Labour though!They failed to und

When the Tories sweep to power at the next election,
does anyone seriousley think they will allow the executive to continue in it's present form ?. No.
They will demand that Scotland return to the Westminster fold , assuming they want to stay part of the union, or we will be made to go it alone. The days of money being thrown at Scotland will cease immediatley. They are not going to pour resources into a country where you can count their supporters on one hand. No way.

#26 I assume you are aware that if a referendum is held and the Scottish people vote to go it alone there would be a furthe election to swear in a government. So, a hell load of folk may not like SNP or their policies but may support independce. When that is won all the other parties will set out a manifesto to government the independant state. Its not rocket science.

Also, shoddy reporting from Mr Scotsman again. When reading this article, why are they giving the impression that independance would be inevitable under SNP, even if they do win majority and go for referendum, who says we will say yes?! Its time for a bloody change in Scotland and we have had Labour/Lib Dem for 8 years and quite a dismal time that has been.

Buck up your ideas voters!

Liberals, rings a bell, 1935 or thereabouts, some party sacrificed Scotland to Labour through sheer incompetence. It is before my time so I cannot offer any clues. History never repeats itself anyway so you guys could be OK.

Mrs Thatcher was correct That Devolution is an unfair system,And that You are either a Full partner or Out.Oh and the Tory gvt cant scrap the Parliament its there to stay,Because we done enough moaning to put it there,

#31 Kev18: Off-course independence does not mean that the SNP will automatically be the chosen party. In any democracy you have a right to chose the party of your choice. However, the SNP are the party pushing hardest for an independent Scotland..They crave power and the only way they can gain it is through an independent Scotland. If things stay as they are under the union they will forever be seen as the nobodies they are!

Yes one has to be in Scotland to get a feel of the ground swell thats happening ,If you are outside Scotland One doent know what they are talking about!then You are not entitled to an oppinion .

#35 eric: In that case none of us is therefore permitted to comment on Iraq, Palestine,Saudi Arabia, Israel,Rwanda,Zimbabwe or Somalia?

Like Salmond, your out of your depth! Now go away and play toy cars with your friends and dont come on daddy's computer again.

Why are they so scared of a referendum, if as they say most people don't care?

They obviously have no respect for the the Scottish populace.

Yippee - good for you Ming!!!!

I'm sick to death of a minority of separatists ranting on about their right to an independent Scotland. Nearly everyone I know wants to stay in the union.

The rise in the SNP popularity is nothing to do with wanting independence - most people don't want it. It is everything to do with the unpopularity of Labour.

I will be voting LibDem!

#35 Groundswell? I see no evidence of that in Edinburgh. In fact, I rather think the majority of voters could care less about the Hollyrood elections in May and even less about so called Scottish independence - the case has simply not been made. All risk no gain!

Thats true One shouldnt comment on another countries Politics if One doesnt stay in that country ,

Mr Stephen in the position of kingmaker .
He knows he will never rule himself as the voters will not give him the mandate, so he will attempt to put a weak ruler in place and control from the sideline.
That guarantees I will not vote for the libdems

19
Independence can only come about if the people wish this to happen.Where is the con trick in democratic accountability? The McCrone Report guarantees where the con trick lies! It was a Westminster government who commissioned it,and suppressed it.
Once again you express an opinion but the facts do not support anything you say.
If you have a persuasive argument to make by all means do so,but conclusion without anything to explain it is pointless.

35 Eric, I totally agree, you have to be in Scotland to actually get a feel of what is going on.

Sadly I am not but I read these forums daily and try to ignore the Scotsmans biased reporting. I get updates from friends and family, even then I am aware that not being there in the run up means I am at a disadvantage in feeling whether there is the ground swell I hope is there. I just wish some other posters here that live outside Scotland would realise this as well.

All I can hope for is that enough people fevently feel the same way as I do and vote for the SNP. I watch and I wait, I will vote by proxy this year, the first time I have ever voted, so strongly do I feel about this May elections. I urge others like me to get a postal or proxy vote in order now.

My main reason For changing my vote from labour to Snp ,Is The Real mess of the NHS and the Crime ,

38
What the people of Scotland want is for the people to decide,not some discredited Tory to interpret!
A referendum is the most accurate test available.The Liberals oppose independence,thats why they oppose a referendum.This is 100% undemocratic and Scotland should definitely kick them out permanently.A less principled party does not exist in the United Kingdom.
Ask the people.Theres your answer .
The Unionists declare how undemocratic they are by refusal,and confirm they fear the result.They further confirm they would hold Scotland into the Union against her peoples wishes and that guarantess to the world who are watching that they are unfit to govern.

42 Cheers ,Unionists who live in Scotland seem hell bent on holding Scotland back,But i will not accept the same from Unionist who go abroad for a better life and still hold that veiw,They are old hat and sad,
If the people of Scotland get referendum and vote in SNP,If i dont like snp after a while .Ill change my vote ,its simple,I may give tory party a try or lib dems or labour after independence who knows eh.

So there we have it.

Lib Dems are against listening to the people of Scotland.

Labour have decided to just ignore the million name petition on motoringh charges.

How more arrogant can you get than these 2 parties?

30
Billy I sincerely hope that you are completely wrong here.My own feeling is they would not dare try this.World opinion plus the right of the people of a dormer nation(and Scotland is one of the very oldest in existence)to recall their parliament is written and recognised in international law, plus I suspect there was a clause to this effect in the Act of Union of 1707 itself.However it is worth noting that a vote to return to Edinburgh (1711)by the elected members from Scotland was lost because it was taken by the entire United Kingdom parliament,(totally undemocratic of course)so maybe you do indeed have a crystal ball.I hope not!

Well I am abroad because I married a non Scotsman, I am home as much as possible and we will be home in a year for good. My husband is rooting for an independant Scotland as well and I know if he could, he would vote SNP as well. One day I am sure he will be able to do so.

My reasons for wanting an idependent Scotland is purely a simple one, I dip into the economics of it on occasion but I just feel I am Scottish in my heart, I am not British. I know that Scottish people generally are quite liberal people and dare I say it, socialist in nature.

I often read some posts by others living abroad, media 1 in particular, he is quite agressive in his unionist views, all well and good for him but I live in an expatriate society myself, I have visions of him being a member of the British Club. While abroad, people from the UK tend to stay in herds, over time, their opinions all become the same, they become mild colonialists by circumstance.

The likelihood of a pro-independence majority is a lot higher than either Nicol Stephen or the Scotsman seem to think, all the more so when the LibDems make the choice starker. When that majority happens, what is the need for a referendum?
Presumably Nicol Stephen and the LibDems will be against an independence referendum just as they were against the devolution referendum?
As in the past with unionist parties, their hard-line unionism might work in the short-term but in the long-term it also "hardens" the independence cause.
It would make more sense for the unionists to hold a referendum on independence while the polls still suggest a two way split in the electorate, support for independence is growing.

Ted #3. I don't know why you think I'm an SNP activist (whatever that really means), just because I think the we should be independent and finally get rid of the colonial rule from Westminster (even if it is via their boot-lace boys in Edinburgh).

Moreover, if you had actually bothered to read any of my previous posts, you would see that I have stated, time and time again, that we should get out of the CFP, out of the CAP and out of the EC.

As for the Whigs, they, like the other unionists, obviously don't believe in democracy, hence their attitude towards a referendum. The unionists, in general, don't believe in referenda as that would result in them having to listen to the people; and most unionists think that they know better, and that the people should do what they are told, by them.

They Whigs will do just about anything to ensure that they stay on the gravy train. They don't care about the people; only about keeping their snouts in the trough.

Saor Alba.

How can a democratically elected party block a referendum? Don't they want people to have their say on independence? What's democratic about that? There should be an independence referendum regardless of results in May - let the people have their say. That is, after all, what democracy is supposed to be all about. Pah.

I've never understood the ferocity of unionist rhetoric which comes from senior LDs. It's typically even more agressive than you get from some Tory and Lab spokespersons.

Surely the number one priority of LDs is to modernise the government system - why not help Scotland go ahead and do this on its own, rather than hope they can drag the whole UK along? There's a real opportunity here to boot out Lab/Tory from government altogether (in at least part of the UK), for the first time since WWII. If the LDs wreck this chance, by quibbling over a referendum, many voters will never forgive them.

More votes for SNP assured.

Eric 39

Yes vote for the Union becuase it has done soooooo much for Fife. I mean that place is just awash with jobs, wealth, stunning housing. I mean why on earth would anyone want to end the Union?!!!

These independence people are so stupid. Just look around and see the massive wealth we are all basking in. NOT!

Eric (39), sorry my post was meant for Conservative 38

With 80% of the electorate (whether pro or anti-independence) according to opinion polls supporting the calling of an independence refendum, Nicol Stephen and the Lib Dems will find their stance ultimately unsustainable. It is as simple as that.

#30 -"when the Tories sweep into power..." it must be good, whatever you're smoking over there in Germany

Folks I wouldn't get too excited about Media1 comments, if you have read anything he has written on the sports pages you will understand he is just there to wind people up,

Bye, Bye Mr Stephen then.

Your pimp, Joke McConnell, has found himself a new beatch in Ms Goldie.

New Labour and their natural
bedfellows the Conservatives (even former Deputy PM Roy Hattersley, on Question Time last night was at pains to distance New Labour from the Party he grew up in) will dump Nicol Stephen into political oblivion after the May elections.
http://election.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=1287&id=4...

The Labour party will then be on track for General Election wipe out under Broon probably later in the year or early next spring.

The only thing standing between Scotland and another 18 wilderness years of Tory rule from London will be Alex, Nicola and the SNP.
http://www.scottishleftreview.org/index.php?action=articl...

Kinnock's '79 Labour Party Manifesto was credited as being the longest suicide note in history, Nicol Stephen is making a game attempt to write his own.

59. Peter 100
'the Village idiot' is a Troll bent on flaming up the bebate.

His views on South African Aparthied got his comments removed from another forum.

Maisie No 42, Pray tell more. How do you go about getting a proxy vote. I stay in S.A., but have kept british passport. In contact with SNP when I asked this question was told I would have to sit on the side lines. If I could get proxy vote am sure a good proportion of expats would also go for it.

The majority of the Libdem mebership in Scotland are not opposed to a referendum, it is only the leadership. Taking this stance of refusing to have a referendum even though your own party are not against it will cost them votes.
If we live in a democracy then what is so scary about giving the people the right to vote on wether to be independent or not?
Roll on May, democracy for me, it's time.

Nicol Stephen states his position and then gets abused by all the negheads on this site. Excellent, makes me proud to be Scottish.
Might be worth remembering that there will be an election in May - that seems to me a pretty democratic event - then people can decide which party to vote for then. The SNP fanatics just have to accept that for many Scots indpendance is simply not a priority. Perhaps if you thought climate change was more important and a global issue you might vote green.

In fact there is more than just one party advocating independance - greens, variou socialist groups ect. And other parties that support different solutions - as I understand it the LibDems advocate a federal solution and the Tories at least supported the Union and oppossed devolution.

People are actually spoiled for choice (which is better than having none). It is because we have this choice that makes the SNP case much weaker (I would support them (again) if we were denied human rights or the vote). As the man said, if there is a majority in favour of a referedum there will be a referendum. Thats democracy for you.

I hope Alex Salmond can demonstrate more maturity than many of his supporters. But I doubt it.

# 29 Morris, agreed.
# 33 Eric, and what happened to Scots parl. 300 years ago??.

With proportional representation,a coalition situation is almost inevitable. And the tail wags the dog EVERY time.Australia has had proportional representation for many decades, and a Liberal/country party govt for damn near as long. The labour party would on occation get more overall votes (50.5-52 %) but NOT the seats. The Liberal party there could not have governed on its own share of the vote but the country party would save them.(A country party seat could have as little as 5000 voters, the seats in the cities as many as 80000 voters). Used to be said that for the country party it wasnt one man ,one vote. It was one sheep, one vote!
A similar situation is coming here, like it or not.
The people who set up the Scottish parl. must be laughing like drains about how they shafted us. And there are other nasty
tricks in the prop. rep. system you aint seen yet...!
And federal systems are just as bad.
The ONLY way to beat the system is to get your people out to vote, ALL of them, the people who think that they dont have to vote because we'll win LOSE elections. Scotland deserves Independance, England deserves independance.(and most seemingy want it).
Both countries will be better as willing collaborators than as master and slave.
Let us hope this time IT HAPPENS.

The SNP supporters here are moaning already - presumably because they have conceded that their party will not get a majority to go independent.

That's democracy. If people really want independence then they will vote in the SNP in sufficient numbers to form an outright majority. So in effect this election is a referendum on independence. Given that the result will also be boosted by a mid-term (in UK terms) kick in the teeth for NL and Blair, it must be the best chance for generations for separatists.

Will they accept the results?

We all know how trustworthy and honest the FibDems are. You can't believe a word they say. All they care about is clinging onto power. Vote FibDem get Joke back in.

While I consider proportional representation to be a fairer system of voting, it is strange that it isn't in force for Westminster elections. It is clear that the unionist parties imposed it for Holyrood to ensure that the SNP have difficulty in getting a majority. Yet if it was suggested that first past the post be abandoned at Westminster, they'd bleat on about the need for strong government. As usual, Britannia waives the rules....

Nicol Stephen is fast becoming a victim of his own inflated ego. The fact that a minority party could hold the balance of power is perhaps a side effect of PR that is not necessarily a good thing. And as for claiming to be democratic - aye right!

Thanks for clarifying Nicol.

A vote of the Lib Dems is a vote for Labour.

Livilion (60)

A wee correction. It was actually the 1983 Michael Foot led Labour party whose manifesto was described as the longest suicide note in history. The 1979 election was Jim Callaghan's. Kinnock took over the party in 1984

Cheers

Liberal-Democrat - an oxymoron.

UN Charter, Article 1: To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace.

The Lib-Dems seem ignorant of the internationally accepted principle of self-determination.

Why are so many posters on here opposed to the idea of self government and yet not able to give any intellectual argument as to their reasons for holding this view?

It is depressing to see so many people opposing their fellow countryman having the right to self determination and yet all they can quote to support their rant is the scaremongering words of New Labour and Old Tory politicians.

Separatists? What in God's name does this actually mean and why is it such a bad thing?

I have not read anything in Alex Salmond's speeches that suggests he is arguing for Scotland and England to divorce and never talk to each other again. Indeed, he has spoken, quite recently, about the need for Scotland to remain close to England and Ireland on matters concerning the prosperity of the British Isles.

There seem to be far too many intellectually bankrupt clowns on here who cannot argue beyond throwing about silly words that actually have no real meaning or depth to them. If you are not going to vote for the SNP then that is fine. But at least try to activate your brain before you start spouting complete keech about the reasons for not doing so.

The Labour Government has admitted that the government has consistently lied to the Scottish people during the last four decades in order to discredit the Nationalists and quell any support for them. Lying to people only works when there are folk out there daft enough to accept the lies without questioning what is being said. Reading some of the postings on here, it is easy to see how it was so easy for the government to dupe the people.

Vote for who you like, but just try to study the facts and the truth before you go to the ballot box and let yourself down yet again.

Stevie Boy says that Ra Libbis strongly support a scottish parliament & strongly oppose a scottish state - well that clears that up. But hey, wait the noo - at least Stevie Boy gets tae talk - did anybody hear Wee Jacky last night on the telly, I spotted him in the background while the grown ups frae Lundy were telling us how to vote. I think Wee Jacky might have been stirring Tony's tea or something equally statesmanlike.

Just who are the Lib-Dems? The party that props up Labour in order to get a place at the top table, the party who has the same number of seats as the tory party who, are the most despised in Scotland. Voting for them gets you Labour in by the back door. I can understand their position on a referendum however, separate from their big brother in Westminster they become a minority party in Scotland. Then there is the leadership change looming for Labour, the outcome seeing Brown as MP is not as certain as many in the press think. My view is that the Tories may just win the next general election, now where does that leave Scotland?

Media 1,

I have a house in Scotland, I am in and out of the country on a regular basis, I pay poll tax, I bank there, I am on the electoral roll. Infact I practically still live there most of the time.

#67
Dennis - Like every other political party the SNP will accept the results until the next election, and then try and persuade the electorate again (assuming they need to).

#33 Eric: Sorry but you are wrong. Westminster is the sovereign Parliament and the Scottish Parliament only exists because Westminster gave it to us. They are entitled to take it away faster than they gave it to us.

Admittedly, there would be a wee stooshy if a Westminster government did disolve a Scottish Parliament, but they could still do it. After all, your average Scot appears to be a meek, pathetic individual, that happily does what his Masters tell him to do - just so long as he does not have to support their football team.

This 'Liberal' anti-democrat party have clearly been picking up more bad habits from prostituting themselves to the New Labour tories and their wee shot at being 'the bosses' in Holyrood.

Wendy Alexander's wee brother, wearing his UK Transport Secretary's hat, this week said that he'd ignore the 1.25 million voters on the anti-roads pricing petition and press on with it regardless, so nothing new there.

Next day we have the Law lords ruling that Tony Bliar's Nuclear Policy 'Public Consultation' was a sham set up to give the appearance of democratice due process with the outcome decided before the excercise even began.

These following on the heels of the discovery of the 70's McCrone report, the Cash for Honours cover up, Iraqgate, etc.

80% of the Scottish electorate want a referendum on Self Determination.

I can't help wondering why Nicol Stephen is so dead set against a measure that even his local party chairs are calling for.

So the 3rd popular political party is kingmaker and gets to decide what the biggest party can do. What a stupid system!

Why not hold 2 votes: the first for any party and then another between the 2 winners? I bet the Lib Dems won't like that idea!

72. Allan
Cheers, figured that one wasn't worth checking.

#64 Blarney: You are right that many Liberal members, including senior activitsts, are open to the idea of a referendum. Nicol Stephen's view does not seem to reflect the straw poll results of his own party.

But they will sit there like the wee lapdogs that they are, just as they did when Jim Wallace sold out all their kep points of principle to get an office with a plush carpet at St Andrew House.

The Liberal Party is no better than Labout or the Tories when it comes to career politicians who just want to jump on board the gravy train and wait for their peerage.

Scotland has got significant problems with poverty, poor education at all levels, anti social behaviour, the "benefits" culture and a general lack of ambition and pride amongst our people and leaders. The Labour Party has had decades to tackle this and the Liberals have had 8 years. They have wasted enough of my taxes and produced negligible results.

The time for change in Scotland came many years ago. The country is on its knees and needs something drastic to happen. Starting on the path to independence is the only route that is likely to lead to meaningful change.

People can vote for more of the same or they can vote for change to happen.

so paulr #40, your vote will be determined by the Scotsman journalist's interpretation of the situation, will it? Personally I will be making my own mind up, not letting Hamish McDonnel or any other journalist do it for me.
There is absolutely nothing new in this article. The LibDems have always said they are against a referendum. Today they are saying it again. Where's the news?

Too soon for a referendum anyway! The SNP will want to consolidate first of all, and I'm sure the pressure and interference from Westminster will eventually show the Scottish public, that the only way forward is through independance!!

I've got an excellent Lib/Dem MSP who is going to lose his seat thanks to nicol [tax mileage] stephens who is a total control freak.
#20 what planet do you live on,between this posting and your worship of romanov who'd listen to you

Its really quite simple actually to bring all of this to a conclusion.........

Nicol Stephen is correct about an overall majority being required before all the parties would agree that the independence mandate was in place....when that's in place all the referendum paper needs to contain is the choice of answering these 2 questions....

No 1.........Scottish electorate....do you wish to take charge of your nations resources and management for the sole purpose of benefiting the Scottish people in their aspirations and industry....without being part of the United Kingdom??

Yes/No

No 2..........Scottish electorate.............do you wish to remain within the Union and share your nations resources and management for the sole purpose of benefiting the UK people in their aspirations and industry....whilst being part of the United Kingdom??

Yes/No

How dare he, guess I wont be voting lib dem in May then feckin idiot. I would urge all people in scotland to take up thier vote in may and give these fat cat politicians the boot, if we donr were all going to end up paying through our ears eyes and noses for every mile we travel by car, at £1.50 a mile thats a lot of money I wont be paying, hope they got a nice comfy jail cell ready for me because im begining to think Im better of inside than out here.

No 1....Yes
No 2....No

easy peasy...isnt it

Looks like Labour and the Lib Dems have decided their interest are best served by launching a pincer movement on the SNP. Politics politics.......

Ming the Terrible finally lives up to his name

Lib Dems ignore the wishes of their own members to stay part of the discredited Union.

Seat in the Lords beckons for Lord Ming the Discredited

#79 The original Scottish parliament was only adjourned, admittedly sine die, but still only adjourned. The English did not "give" us our parliament, and they are not entitled to take it away.

They might try to abolish the new Scottish parliament, but they would get a much nastier reaction than they might be able to deal with. Unless, of course, they did a Churchill and sent the tanks in, as he did against the "red" Clydesiders.

Could play into the SNP's hands though. For the doubters, it's now far safer to vote SNP.

12. Sean K.
There is such an organisation. Its called The Scottish Independence Convention, a pro independence all party/non party alliance. We meet once a month in Edinburgh, and welcome alike minded people. We even have a very active Lib Dem Peer in our ranks! We even have some thinking Tories!
Check us out at www.scottishindependenceconvention.com

Hey negheads - I think you need to start a witchhunt (like you did last time when you booted out Margo, Russell etc). Read the article:

As one SNP source said yesterday when asked whether his party's position on a referendum was non-negotiable: "Well, I know it is non-negotiable before the election."

As Donald Dewar himself admitted before he died, Scottish Devolved Government is "a form of independence within the U.K."! Even I am becoming alarmed at reports in the media literally describing members of the Scottish Executive as: the "Scottish Cabinet", and the First Minister as Scotland's "Premier"!? All these subtle public pronouncements will become embedded just like Devolution itself. However, Scottish Devolution is neither one thing or another but it will either continue to stymie the nationalists or weaken the Union, and politically and economically, Scotland has obtained a much better settlement than it could ever have received from a centralised U.K. State which is now Gone With The Wind forever! The Unionist parties know that if they start tampering with Scottish Devolution or the largesse of the Barnet Formula then they are playing with their very futures, especially the indigenous Conservatives, should they ever return to power? Indeed, sometime in the future, the return of an indigenous Tory Scottish Executive which, paradoxically, has already rejected fiscal autonomy, would undoubtedly be attempting political suicide, if it tried to abolish devolved government, and such a move might well precipitate the the end of this unitary state? From now on the Unionist parties will be walking a political tightrope!
Lachie Todd.

87 - Dragonhead

Read the comment - Eric was having a go at that blethering idiot Media 1, hence the capitalisation of One. No one is suggesting that the Scottish Service personnel serving over seas defending the US oil companies profits shouldn't have a say.

The answer is of course simple. The SNP just to get all their voters out on polling day come rain or shine and don't take no for answer. They also have to convince the "don't knows" that they do know what they're doing. Part of that must be to push a message that it is NOT ANTI-English, but PRO-Scottish.

I know a few English friends of mine have concerns.

As for the Libdems, they have to be shown up for what they are. You have to cobvince people not to waste your votes on them. Fortunately, Blair and McConnel are doing that for their own party. Goldie's lot are always going to be also-rans!

Nicol Stephen?

A poll was published from YouGov in November 2006 with a sample size of 1034 .

Among LibDem voters 28% thought that Alex Salmond would make the best First Minister whereas 21% opted for Nicol Stephen.

In a straight choice between Salmond and McConnell 54% chose Alex against 29% for Jingling Jack.

The LibDems like other unionists in this blog insist that there is no demand for Independence but are determined that the Scots should de denied the opportunity of a referendum.That sounds neither Liberal or Democratic.

The LibDems are the patsies of the present Scottish Executive.When the parliament first sat in the Assembly Hall a lectern used to be moved in front of a minister prior to a statement. A colleague remarked to me back then that whenever it was moved in front of a LibDem you just knew that you were about to hear crap news.
It is Ross Finnie trailing out to Brussels and standing behind the UK minister as our fishing interests are shafted on a regular basis.
It is Tavish Scott holding Margaret Beckett's handbag as she screws up the west coast ferry tender.
It is Ming the munificent reading someone else's topical jokes badly from an autocue.
It is Robert Brown standing up as the chamber empties.
It is Jamie Stone
Keith Raffan or that dodgy donor that gave them oodles of illegal cash.
Or even Jeremy Purvis.....................
I think I'll have to stop now

I have a really mad idea, why dont we all vote for independance and give it a try, what do we have to loose it cant be any worse than being ruled from two seperate countries. I suspect those in power are frightened that it will be a success and scotland will become the true power it has always had the potential to be and Engliand well we can just leave them to get on wit hit. Maybe they might just be finally exposed as the ones who cant live without us.

Lets go it alone and see where it goes, for a country of around 6 million people we can take all the monies we generate and spend it in scotland, and to hell with England, personally if it were me in charge, I would re-build Hadrians wall and install look out posts every 100m that should generate a few jobs, im pretty sure a few volunteers as well and keep all the undesirables where they belong, that includes all the fat cat numptie politicians who would be welcome to leave anytime.

96 DOH

As one SNP source said......... Scotsman's reporting, who could disagree?

I think the Lib Dems have sounded the death knell for their own party. They and Labour and the Tories all speak with one voice saying this far and no further on constiutional change. The Tories opposed the ambitions of the Scottish people for 20 years(after a majority vote for devolution in 1979) and we all know what happened to them.

The Lib Dems pretend to support federalism. An independent Scotland along with England and Wales would be part of a federal Europe. The Queen might even last for a while so there will still be a United Kingdom.

The difference is that for the frst time Scotland and England will have an equal say in world events we will both have fully powered national Governments are our individual flags will fly at the UN. What's wrong with that?

Many Lib Dems VOTERS and Labour VOTERS actually support independence. It is only the leadership of these parties that are desperate to maintain a historical union which is not 'fit for purpose'.

"His decision to be apparently unequivocal on an independence referendum is designed to mark out the Lib Dems clearly as defiantly anti-independence. He believes this position will attract votes and he does not want to lose the support of those who do not want independence and are worried the Lib Dems will help it in through the back door."

It does not seem very clear to me that being "defiantly" anti-independence will attract any additional votes to the Lib-dems or make more secure those they already have. It serves only to make those who incline to liberal values while at the same time supporting independence (probably a more substantial number than Nicol Stephen would care to admit} less likely to vote Lib-Dem.

There is no back door to independence anyway. There is only a front door. It's called a referendum. So Nicol can stop fretting.

Well done Kenmac, very well put.

#93 Guga: I accept your point about the origial Parliament, but I do not think you are right about the Holyrood Parliament. The Holyrood Parliament, its authority and the list of reserved matters are all enshrined in UK (Westminster) legislation. It came into being as a direct result of Westminster MPs passing legislation.

I think that you are overlooking the fact that the Holyrood Parliament, whilst a worthwhile institution, is just a pretend Parliament. Just as British MPs gave it to us, they can take it away again. WHilst I would love to see the day when the people living in Scotland stand up for something other than to collect their bonus at work, I am not as confident as you are that there would be any significant rebellion.

After all, they kept voting for Blair after watching his murdering antics in Iraq. If they cant even vote to protect our own soldiers and innocent iraqs from big business and greedy politicians then why the hell will they protest to protect a Parliament?

If a party says it will hold a referendum on independence and the majority of Scots want independence then they will vote for these parties.
If a party says it will not hold a referendum on independence and the majority of Scots want to remain in the union they will vote for these parties.
If the independence or unionist parties collectively get more than 50% of the seats then the people of Scotland have spoken.
Nothing undemocratic about that.

#74 Harry, it is depressing how so many of our countrymen do not see the need for change.

The majority of pro unionist supporters have been brainwashed to support labour no matter what they do.
Others have a strange allegiance to a 'glorious' union (I'm pretty sure this is for misguided historical reasons even though the in an independent Scotland, the Queen would still be our Queen and head of state). This mentally challenged group think that nationalists exist only through of a hatred of the English. LOL.
The remainder have no confidence in the Scottish nation and are themselves bottlers - they are simply trying to save us from themselves. This group try to frighten us with claims that we need the union and that we would flounder without it as it gives us tens of billions of public sector cash each year. Yet no-one in England or any English based political party sees the Scots as a drain on resources - they know fine well that we contribute more than we get back.

Collectively, instead of giving Scotland the shake she really needs, they would rather just shuffle along supporting the hundreds of thousands of able bodied but work shy benefits claimants, seeing our prisons full to bursting, putting up with the rises in anti social behavior and huge apathy amongst the young voters. All this created by successions of Westminster Govts intent on plundering our natural resources whilst blowing our pension funds on wars and WMD.

Why would anyone not want to sort this out?

If the SNP becomes the single largest party at Holyrood come May and the London Parties block moves to independence or even a referendum at Holyrood, there is a UK General Election coming along soon after where an SNP majority will be a mandate for route 1 to independence.

Think about it.

Independence First www.independence1st.com and the SIC are allies in the fight for Scottish independence.

The SIC supported IF's last democracy march on 30th September and we hope they will also support our new proposed march at the end of March.

Last night at 11p.m. Nicol Stephen was interviewed by Michael Crow and his response to Michael's questions were so obtuse that Michael nearly lost his temper! Stephen claimed that the Lib Dems were on track to be the winning party in May! He was ridiculed, naturally, and never gave one answer to the questions then asked for making that claim. If this neep is the leader of the LibDems throughout the campaign then he has certainly pulled the plug on any chance they had of appearing on the radar. When asked his stance on road/bridge charging he went off on a tour of nowhere. He even beat his appalling performance in the debate on the Western Peripheral Route (Aberdeen) in his home constituency in South Aberdeen. On each occasion he was made to look like the incompetent candidate he really is. It does not say much for anyone in his neck of the woods who would support such a performer. Anybody would be better than his lot.

Morris 23 great post there may be hope for us all yet.

Wow, so many things here. Firstly, and most simply, the bill regarding taxation for road use - the original petition was set up a drivers' association who flagrantly misrepresented its content and outright lied about what it will entail. It won't increase the overall tax burden at all, it'll merely change the way it's collected. It'll make it a lot fairer - it'll encourage people not to use their cars if there are alternatives, and for those who really need to (i.e. those living in the countryside) the cost of using countryside roads will be minimal at best, most likely saving them money. Don't believe anything you read from advocacy organisations.

Secondly, there's a lot of people upset about PR. The point about coalition-forming is that it ensures government represents a wider range of electoral opinion, not just one narrow party that happened to squeeze past the post. Obviously, this makes politics a lot more complex, but more reflective of the will of the people.

This is how you should understand Stephen's comments. He's letting people know exactly what they're getting; not leaving the subject hanging in the air in the hope of picking up votes from SNP supporters who know the rest of their policies would kill off Scotland's economy. In this respect, it's actually quite commendable.

There are several parties who support independance, and anyone who places it as a high priority can vote for them. If they achieve a majority, they can then form a temporary coalition after the elections in order to implement it. It's unlikely that they will however, because most people recognise that these parties usually have other policies that will be actively detrimental to their wellbeing. In fact, I would place independance amongst these.

I work in research, and I know one of the biggest gains Scotland recieves from the union is access to the UK-wide funding councils, which allocate a lot of money to our universities. We gain disproportionately from

114. AdamFostas,
""..he bill regarding taxation for road use...
... it'll merely change the way it's collected. It'll make it a lot fairer...""

Aye so it will, if you can afford to drive you can.
If you can't - 'get the bus with the other prols and leave me a space to park the Chelsea taxi in peace'.

Too many poor people's cars clogging up the arteries of commerce.

I read lots about independance by obvious SNP supporters,but i never read what it is they want from independance.I would lke to hear their want list,and this is not a wind up i really am interested.Wonder how many will reply?

That's the Lib Dems off the voting choice list then.

I was going to give them a vote because I am not keen on some of the idiots in the SNP. However, that choice is now excluded.

I want independence but I don't like the SNP. I'm not a socialist and I think the Greens are Marxist idiots. I am a bit stuck. :(

#114 AdamFostas:

"access to the UK-wide funding councils..... Independance would prevent this"

Are you serious? You seem to be arguing for a culture of spongeing money off the English? You seriously want people to believe that the UK currently invests enough funds into research at the moment and that the only money that research bodies get is from government funds/taxes?

Might I suggest that, in fact, UK research bodies have bemoaned a lack of investment from government from many years and consistently highlighted that the Yanks and others often get the lead because UK government and investors fail to come up with the funds. Seems like it is time for change in the R&D field.

As a researcher you will have gathered the facts to support your conclusion that Scotland will fail to invest in research over the next 20 years. Please share some of those key facts with us so that we can see how you reached your startling conclusion!

I also interested in those statistics you have that show that the money that is distributed by the UK research funding councils is generated by, and comes from the English.

67
The SNP WANT a referendum to establish the true position of the people.
The SNP have accepted defeat and abided by the results of every election in my lifetime.
Of course they accept it. They WANT you to vote,even if its against nationhood.Its called democracy.Its the UNiuonists who try to deny you freedom of choice!
If you cant see that then theres no point in listening to you.

For g'sake why would anyone want to vote for such a 'middle of the road-doing nothing - criticise everything party of unionists' such as the Lib Dems?

They were born from a group of disillusioned MPs who did not have the stamina nor guts to fight their corner in their original party.

They typify everything that is wrong about politics - all wooly words and no action. Nobody achieves so little with so much as the Lib Dems!!

A vote for the Lib Dems is a total waste.

SO now its clear

Vote Tory ----Get Labour..Goldie to Support Mc Connell
Vote Lib ------Get Labour..Nichol not for Independence
Vote Labour---Get Labour ....Obviously..

Vote S,N.P. -----Get Change, Get Independence,be equal to all other citizens in the world by deciding to do what we want to do.

Why are people so against doing it ourselves, do you all still live with your parents and get them to make the decisions for you, or do you go out into the world and make up your own mind what to do, do you hand over all your wages and get some pocket money back or do you stand on your own feet and make your own way in the world for richer or poorer for better or worse, at least you are doing it YOURSELF.

Does democratic not have something to do with letting the people decide?
So let them decide in a referendum.
Its Time

117

You support independence but do not like the ONLY party which can deliver it? Are you serioius?
Think about it!
In any case after independence you are free to vote for whatever you like including the Monster Raving Loch Ness Loony party.In fact compared to Labour I might join you!

#115

You may have missed the part where I said the burden of taxation will remain relatively constant, unless you like driving on heavily congested roads.
I get the bus to work every day because I don't. And I certainly wouldn't describe the various besuited people who ride with me as prols. No wonder we have problems convincing people to get on public transport, when people like you are falsely stigmatising it.

116 Jim Lad: I am off for some scooby snacks but before I go I will give you a few words:

- Dignity
- Self Respect
- Prosperity
- Social Justice
- Wealth
- Less Corruption
- Less Bigotry
- Education for all
- Healthier People
- Ethical Foreign Policies
- No Nuclear Power
- Growth

Oh, and a country without Dr John Reid!

I know one thing for sure after trying to read this artcle:

The Lib dem don't half go on about such travial stuff and the So called "Deputey 1st minster" is so against a referndum, when most Scots are pro- independece referndom.

I personally got borred with this artcle after the 4th or 5th paragraph

THE LIB DEMS ARE BOREING ME WITH THEIR CONSTANT TALK OF ANTI INDEPENDENCE REFERNDOMS AND HOW MR DEPUTY 1ST MINSTER WANTS TO BE 1ST MINSTER.

I'M SO BORRED WITH THE LIB DEMS I'M THINKING ABOUT PUTTING A BANNER OUTSIDEMY FLAT SAYING; DON'T VOTE LIB DEM.

#114. AdamFostas
""..This is how you should understand Stephen's comments..""

Thanks for the clarification but I think we've worked out what to understand from politicians' comments some time ago.

btw I used to work as a printer and saw the process whereby prospective MPs were told what they thought by their election agents, and it was quite often completely the opposite to what they thought they thought when they started.

I presume you are minded that the world would stop spinning, and the tide would forget to come back in, should Scotland take responsibility for it's own Governance?

Do you imagine that a Scottish administration, uniquely in the developed world, could not figure how to run it's own national institutions?

So much for LibDem's being a democratic party then! Simply put if SNP get an overwhelming majority, the LibDems, whats left of them that is, will support them (that would be big of them), if SNP just become the largest party in number of seats, but dont hold a majority, the LibDems will look to working with Labour again, despite the fact of cource that Labour dont want any cooperation with the LibDems after the election. Is this idiot Nicol Stephen for real???
I think the voters should also consider the fact that Labour and by association the LibDems dont give a flying fig about the Scottish electorate, especially when you consider that when it comes to Scottish matters, Westminster still rules the roost, even to th extent of the Labour/Libdem Executive being sidelined in eu matters, by the way, its happened yet again and is reported in the Herald
http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/news/display.var.1197...
Westminster sidelined the Scottish Executive over the CalMac island routes, even allthough Transport is a Scotland only matter

It is disappointed that the Lib=Dems will not support the Scottish People if the SNP win we must hold a referendum. is this a other party want to keep scotland in the union.
The Scottish people want more powers and the Lib=Dems will loss a lot off seats in May.

If people wanted independence, then they would vote for it! They have not done so, therefore, let us draw a conclusion from this electoral message!

116.

What do I want from independence?

I want Scotland to be governed by Scots, I want my votes to count in my own country.

I want the right to be free of an alien government in Westminster who forces us to be dragged by the coat tails into wars and nuclear trident.

I want my children to have a sense of their Scottish identity, I want them to work towards a better country, one worth staying in and bettering, rather than emigrate.

I want to be fully proud of my nationality and not be tarnished as a second class British person, as I am at present.

I want my media to reflect my country and not be either an afterthought of a backwater region of England.

I just want Scotland to run our own affairs as issues that affect us are not necesarily ones that bother Westminster, England, Wales ect.

# 124

You forgot "freedumb!"

#15 Canny Mann right enough, that's as fine an articulation of the shame and failure of political ethics by the people who rule and those who seek to rule the UK that I've read for sometime. Those who act out of genuine political conscience stand out by a country mile against a backdrop of time servers, opportunists and criminals for want of a better word.

The report released by the UN concerning the desparately poor quality of life for our children in the UK throws into sharp relief the malaise of government thinking and the priorites that drive it. It also shows us, the masses, exactly where we stand in the House of Cards. We are some where underneath the table, lying around like a dropped gambling chip - can you believe a so called Labour party is pushing forward a super casino and liberalising gambling when every other bugger is tightening it up - gathering dust until election time comes rolling around and the "Players" come scrabbling down in the dark and gloom looking for us to keep them in business.

"Gie us yer money, dinnae worry aboot getting hame til efter the weans are in bed and gie's a whack aw yer pensions an a'. Keep working 'til yer 70. Hoo else dae we stay the 4th strongest economy in the world if aw yoo Baw Heids think aboot is huvin a pension tae retire oan and a family tae enjoy it wae." If this was a Ned holding you up at knife point you could just about understand it but this is the Party of the Working Man presently in government. If we can't get your money through direct taxation we'll sweep it of you when you gamble or fly or drive or talk or walk. What will we spend it on? An illegal war, a huge piece of American global suicide hardware JIC Iran launches an attack on Ardrossan, the Olympics, phew! Good deal.

But what does all this mean for the debate on Independence. Is there any point in changing one group of sociopaths for another. Absolutely, in fact because the LibDems, the Tories and the New T

#121. stocky: Speard the word.

If only their wasaway to speard this word to everyone in Scotland.

Then the chances of Independence and getting a refarndom for independence would be higher.

# 124 thanks for you reply i found it interesting but am surprised that others did not take the opportunity to explain their hopes.You can't keep banging a gong about wanting independance if you don't give people the substance of it. As i said this is a genuine interest.

#124 & #130. Agree totally.

Incidentally, #124, hopefully without Gordon Brown too.

Looking at the picture itlooks like a cosy wee chat.

Ok thats the Scotsman had a cosy chat with the Lib dem and the Labour party.

Whens the Scotsman going to have a cosy chat with the SNP, The Greens, The SSP, SP and independents.

I'm quite sure that the torie one is just around the corner.

#130 Maisie thanks for your insight i hope you get what you want.I am an undecided right now,but by hearing from people like you it helps me make my mind up,but one thing for sure, will be voting.

#102, Bill, I do beleive some things I read in the press.
I read that Margo got booted out the SNP and she later stood as an independant independant - that was true.

Anyway to sget back on subject:

The last time the SNP had any influence in Edinburgh - their sole councillor (that is 1 out of about 60) stood by his principles and supported the minority Labour adminstration.
Hard to believe, given the rhetoric on this site. But true.
His key principal seemed to be he wanted to Lord Provost.

So opportuntistic politcal machinations by the SNP are not unheard of.

As for some LibDems supporting independance - of course - why not - the party does belive in diversity, which is better than the totalitarian views expressed by Scots nats in this site.

There have even been polls showin SNP supporters being opposed to independance (presumably they were only voting SNP just as a way of protesting against the government).

What is laughable about many of the posts on this site is that if you dont vote SNP - you are deluded, a liar, incompetent, in the pay of London, snouts in the trough etc. Grow up.

The problem is that the SNP are a one-trick pony.
If there really was a groundswell of support for independance (BTW, I must of been on holiday when our street party was held)
it would of course attract support from across the political spectrum - socialists, liberals and conservatives.

How can one party represent the views of everyone.
I dont think Scottish people are that stupid.

#123. AdamFostas
""..Don't believe anything you read from advocacy organisations...""

Road Pricing, congestion charging;
the thing they have in common?

Charging road users to 'encourage' use of public transport, or to not travel, in order to reduce congestion.

ie These measures will have a more disproportionate effect, the lower your income.

Consider, if you will the deterent effects of parking tickets eg on a single mother on minimum wage, and the well heeled, driver of an executive saloon recieving expenses and a handsome performance bonus.

The difference in this case would be whether the kids eat, on one hand, or the exec has the dearer bottle of wine with his meal on the other.

So it is with road pricing.

Presumably you are the only one who can make an independently informed decision and tell us what we should think?
see #126 above.

When those LibDem voters realize in an independent Scotland there will be no need to pay a TV licence for the BBC anymore, they will be liberally spreading their votes elsewhere.

Choice is vote Tory so we can sponge of England and keep daddy in the Lords.

Vote Labour so we can take part in more illegal wars.

Vote for the less than democratic Liberals so they can keep Labour in power.

Vote for any party [except the SNP] which supports Independence and therefore split the vote and get no independence at all.

Or vote S.N.P. on all voting papers to throw the less than democratic Liberals and Labour out of office and get independence so I can vote for any party of choice later whose polices I favour.

Seems a no brainer I'll vote S.N.P.

Maisie#130,

Very well put, you have succinctly encapsulated the whole ideal of Scottish independance.

137 "How can one party represent the views of everyone. I dont think Scottish people are that stupid"

It is indeed probably the case that the SNP may just be a springboard, most of us probably hold many different views outside independence.

In my own opinion, the SNP is the common denominator here. You may find if we got independence, then we could begin to build up our own Scottish parties, and have true democracy, god help us, we dont have that right now do we?

the liberal democrats !

these people are neithr liberal or democrats !

what are they frightend off

the scots are entitiled to vote for there independence .

couming soon to holyrood the Lib Lab Tory pact !

"137 Doh, indeed you may well have tumbled from a Simpsons episode. That sweet, sweet beer has befuddled your perceptions. Of course the SNP is a one trick pony. It is a party conceived for the sole prupose of gaining independence for Scotland. The people who work within it and for it are from that broad political spectrum, left, right, centre, left of centre, right of centre, right of right and left of left.

Once independence is achieved the SNP will cease to be. If like a bad guess at a party it doesn't know when to leave, it will be shown the door. All those different political persuasions will separate like oil and water into their constituent parts and resume the bun fight. But it will be our bun fight, using our buns for our benefit.

How dare Nicol Stpehen block a referendum on independence, are the people not entitled to decide? This just shows that even if the support exists he will choose to ignore it.
My already exceptionally low opinion of this man and his party has hit rock bottom!

#148
Peter - We don't tend to see England as the "mother country", Scotland is one of the oldest nations in Europe.

The Lib Dems have no policies which will do anything for Scotland. Their party is like their leader , half asleep and one foot in the grave. Yes they are scared of a referendum, but they are scared of everything including actually taking power of which they have no chance.

Nicol Stephen "absolutely clear he would not do a deal on a referendum". There's a laugh. Nicol Stephen would deal on anything to keep him in the inflated position for which he is totally ill-equipped as would any of the Lib-Dems. What about the university fees? They did a quick u-turn on that once they had the sniff of power. They can't make it on their own and if it keeps them in power they would quite happily form a coalition with the SNP, BNP, Tories, old Uncle Tom Cobbley and all!

26- Media 1: You are really very ill-informed. Alex Salmond is one of the most articulate MPs in the UK and, although I am no great fan of Nicola Sturgeon, she too is articulate and can certainly knock spots off McConnell in the Holyrood debating chamber.

#143 Masie - you seem far too reasonable - I hope you dont get booted out the SNP

#145 you might be right - but I doubt the SNP will disolve once if it achieves power - if they were going to do that they would announce it as policy before the election. Will they.

#145 Richard, spare the insults, toy subsequent posting #149
"It's all about aspirations, personal and civic."
If that was true you should vote Lib Dem, but I suspect independance is your priority - thats your right living in a free society. Living in a liberal society I tolerate your opinions, even though I dont agree with them.
#150, if you read the article it is clear that Nicol Stephens beleives that is there is a majority in favour of a referendum then there should be a referendum. Is that not democracy. I no one allowed to be opposed to a referendum. Thats why I used the
word totalitarian in a previous post.

Ironically what the SNP need is a taste of power, so that they can mature and be seen as worthy of public trust.
The rather immature and uncivil comments posted here by the hardliners are of course not the best advert for the SNP.

If politics was as simple as the people like #150 Stu_R_20 beleived. Why dont the SNP arrange a few demonsrations / celebrations - you know get a half a million scots out in George Square and Princess Street to demand independance?

I doubt it, and I doubt that the SNP will announce their dissolution in the event of a referendum being held.

Never trust a LibDem. They'll change their minds to suit themselves.
I'm sure they enjoy being in bed with Joke and the rest of the bLiar party.

One thing that is clear about the SNP and its supporters is their intollerance for anyone who does not see things their way.If you dont vote SNP they brand you a traitor and try to intimidate you.. Look through the many threads and you will note their aggressive attitude. NOT ALL are like that I might add, but most are.

The SNP have created an almost Braveheart type image of Scotland in the minds of its supporters, but that is not what Scotland is about anymore. Scotland is Chrisitian,Catholic,Protestant,Muslim,Hindi. Scotland is white,black,asian and oriental. Scotland is diverse in its many cultures and this SNP party are ignoring that.

Vote Labour and keep Scotland great.

142, AJ, Well thank you, I have my moments now and again but it is very much how I feel and hope it comes true.

Jim, glad you have an open mind as well, whatever way you decide to vote, I am sure it will be true to your beliefs, open minds are good things to have.

Media 1, I wont dignify your post with a response. Oh wait, don't count this as a response!

114 Surely if your research is needed, or has promise of gain, it will attract funding irrespective of your location. Unlike you I do not believe that road pricing is intended to dovetail in to the present system but will be an additional cost for all road users. I can't see the Treasury suddenly becoming benevolent to the extent of voluntarily giving up any of it's huge predictable revenue currently derived via the DVLA. It should be possible through popular pressure to make Government aware that people need to be convinced of the need for change, for purely practical reasons, before implementing any such scheme. I, and I am sure I am not alone, am far from convinced that pricing the less well heeled off Scottish roads will either save the Planet or solve congestion problems in cities

#15 Canny Mann - Good Post.
#17 Paul Voltaire – Who’s better in ANY of the other parties. NOBODY.
# 20/26 Media 1 – Galloot!
# 23 Morris & #74 Harry Paratestes – Well said.
#38 Conservative – You don’t know many people then? Conservative voting Lib/Dem eh, that says it all about you.
This proven fraudster Nicol Stephen is lucky to still be in his job. However the drive for independence is even luckier that he is still in his job. Along with Sir Ming the waffler and Tony Bliar he is doing an excellent job in convincing the Scottish people that they would be better governing themselves. Roll on May. It’s time.

#153 Florence. Your loyalty to your leaders is understandble if not misplaced. It is the easiest thing to be articulate and critical in opposition ( although I do not think that the SNP leaders are any more articulate than anyone else, including the Lib Dems) ) Its a different proposition when you are in a position of being accountable for your decisions and have to try and stick to your manifesto promises against a background of questionable economic forecasts.

#156 Media 1 - pot and kettle comes to mind.

Your response avoids the issues and just launches a personal attack. On either side of an aurgument there will be people you and like and dislike but the idea you make up your mind based on not liking afew people on a thread does not is simply silly.

The issue here is if the snp are the largest party after the election should the other parties still try to stop a referendum taking place denying the people of Scotland the choice of independence.

As if Scots need another reason not to vote Liberal.

#152 You maybe havent been reading the press - so here is just a few achievments / mistakes that you have missedL
The LibDems oppossed the Iraq war -
The LibDems have secured proportional representation for the local government elections - the SNP support that
The LibDems have proposed Local Income Tax - the SNP and SSP support that
The LibDems have opposed tutition fees and brought back grants - no matter what the negheads say the situation is better than it was and is still better than the England
The LibDems haev promoted freedom of information

You must be very disappointed that the SNP supoort some of these LibDem policies. Other than independance I suspect they have a lot more polcies in common than either of us think.

#165 Alan: We already know the SNP will not be the largest party following the election..

Labour will save the day

~156 It's a weak, weak argument that tries to reduce debate to suggesting or in fact stating that the opposition are 'Intolerant' and 'Intimidatory' towards dissenters but it is the one that the New Tories employ with dreary repitiion. What was John Ried doing with his speech in the Islands except spreading the worse kind of fear and paranoia amongst people he must have little respect for if he thinks they are gullible enough to believe it. What are the New Tories doing in Iraq if they're not trying to perpetuate the idea of British 'Empire'.

Vote Labour and keep Scotland paranoid and fearful!

154. Doh,

Not responsible normally I am afraid, just having lucid moments today, probably due to just coming down from the Buckfast thread high on another page!

#166 Doh

How can a "democratic" party, a party that believes in the use of of referendums, deny the people of Scotland a a referendum on independence if the snp is the largest party after May.

They seems to be putting there own view of the how they would like the constitution to look rather than giving the people the choice.

163 Greig frae oz,

I admire your florid style of writing, it puts wee visions in my mind as I read it :)

NichoL Nichol he`s our man
Nichol Nichol has a plan
Nichol Nichol he`s our mannie
Nah He`s just a lib dem fanny

172 Maisie love and hugs xxx

Einstein commented that nationalism is a boil on the face of humanity, l think noel coward regarded nationalism as being the last refuge of the scoundral. li is obvious that most people in this blog are nationalist activists, part of the lefty chattering classes who think it fashionable to be anti nuclear, anti trident, anti english and anti us. The snp in turn are level headed because when it comes to the english they have chips on both shoulders. lf you are english or american and live in scotland, a vote for the snp is like a turkey voting for christmas. One thing for sure if you have a b & b or small hotel and there is any prospect of a snp victory then sell up as the tourist industry will collapse with no english or u s visitors. l convinced english friends of mine last year to cancel their hols here(losing the economy at least a thousand pounds) after the racist attacks on england football supporters and the snp less than lukewarm condemnation of those attacks. Had the attacks been on salmonds asian friends l am convinced he would have demanded a public enquiry and the police wuold have made some effort to catch the perpetrators, but ach lf you are english it doesnt matter and you are fair game

Well, MEDIA 1 (156) - your posting is a classic example of intolerance. Couldn't have demonstrated it better myself.

162 - SEDOV: What presumption! I am not a member of the SNP and don't vote SNP. I have no political leader. Why can't you cope with reasonable observations? Large chip on shoulder or typical touchy Labour supporter?

175, Zoom

Totally agree, theres three reccuring ideas in the minds of other countries, 1. We are a region of England, 2. None of them even know there is such a place as Scotland or 3. They know of us but think we are located near Iceland or Norway.

This is who we are in the eyes of the world.

Greig fi ox.

Be careful with those x's, i may take your post the wrong way!
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=252082007

What are the LibDems scared of?

Surely the death knell for the LibDems in May?

This week we have seen some really incredibly ill judged comments from politicians. The latest and by far the worst being Nicol Stephen's comments about blocking a referendum on Independence after May. That policy will haunt the Libdems throughout this campaign and their vote will suffer and rightly too.

Earlier the weak mouthed Mr Ewing MSP sounded like a right wing US evangelical Christian with his totally banal statement that he wanted to rid Scotland of prostitution. He has as much chance of that as Thailand's ex PM Mr Thaksin who was gong to rid Thailand of drugs in 6 months in time for the Kings birthday and later end pollution in Bangkok in an equally ludicrously short time.

If that's what an Independent Scotland is gong to be like, we'll have to think twice. Alex you'll have to rein him in and that other lightweight Kenny 'foot-in-mouth' Macaskil while you are at it.

Independence is inevitable. Lets just do it and get on with it. We have lost much of our Oil revenues to London since it came on tap in 1975 but there is still plenty left for a small country's needs with export capacity left over.

To circumvent the non democratic Lib Dems who want to prevent us from expressing our views in a referendum: vote SNP.

177

So if Einstein and Coward said it, we should just forget our aspirations and leave things as they are!

The rest of your post is just silly and hostile.

#177. I don't think Noel Coward had such bad grammar or spelling.

So no English or Yanks go to Ireland or Canada as these countries are independent. How many of us only go to countries or regions that are occupied by larger neighbours?

The Unionist arguments get sillier and sillier.

Undemocratic as it is the lib dem position could actually help the snp long term. It could allow them to put a referendum off till a second term, while trading it for a massive increase in powers for the SP. If the snp can get fiscal autonomy (the lib dems believe in something like this) it would be a massive step forward politically as it would give greater transparancy, remove some of the fear factor and also make Westminster less relevant. With fiscal control, would come the welfare system and control over state and private pensions.

There are also other areas where anyone that believes in the SP could easily agree to more devolution.

1) transport, what benefit is there in not having the SP having complete control of this area. ie control a scottish rail infrastructure, airports etc.
2)criminal justice (Westminster has made a complete mess down South)
a)id cards
b)drug laws (can see the mess that Westminster has introduced here. eg the police under the control of SP not wanting to implement Westminster policies)
c) the control of air guns. no-one i have heard can give a good reason why Westminster is better placed to do this for Scotland particulary after the sad death of the child.
3)broadcasting- one of the biggest reasons for anti englishness is the media. Having Scotland producing its own news would atleast mean it is relevant and accurate.
4)control over energy. it is simply ridiculous for Westminster to introduce nuclear if the SP is going to use planning rules to stop it. Clear lines of responsibility are required.

#178 Florence, with such fawning praise of Salmond and Sturgeon I think it is perfectly reasonable for me to assume that although you may not be a member of the SNP your attachment to them is fairly obvious. Also you did not adress the main point of my post is that it in opposition it is easier to be articulate than when you are in power.

162-SEDOV: By the way, do you know the meaning of "articulate"? Being articulate has nothing to do with carrying out manifesto promises etc. It is to do with having a good vocabulary and strong grasp of the English language. You must surely agree not many in Holyrood have that, least of all the Labour ministers.

Morris#47 , yes it would be a nightmare scenario for the executive to have to go, cap in hand , to a Tory goverment for funding, but that looks more and more likely. "Please sir, can we have a billion pounds to build a bridge, please ? ". Can you imagine the Tory reaction ?.

Jennie#58, Don't know the "Brand" but as I live on the Dutch border, it's considerably stronger than yous. As for a Tory goverment being fantasy, I think you will find the English electorate are not polarised like we scots, there is no historical/religious reason
for an Englishman to vote a particular way. They see the Labour Party for what they are useless compulsive liars. They will punish them on that basis, and when they do ,woe betide Scotland.

#177 unionist, you persuaded your friends not to holiday in Scotland because of one or two neds? I take it you are not a Scot?
It is pretty petty to think that English and US visiotrs will suddenly stop coming here. If Scotland became independnet I woudln't stop holidaying in England

Well said Jacobite.

They like to think that the best of Scotland left, when it's actually mostly the detritus.

Why do so many unionists assume that a desire for Scottish independence comes from a hatred of England rather than a love of Scotland?

177 Here we go again a wee southerner crying wolf, firstly Einstein was a mathematician and a fine one at it, as a philosopher he was good at sums, so lets leave him in the maths room.
Noel Coward........................yawn.
Have you nothing of yourself to add to the fray or are you, as the rest of the unionists are a generic blend of everything else with nothing of the individual to add.
Yes i support the SNP view.
Am I anti English ? No but grant me this, you buggers dont taste very nice, maybe I am using the wrong sauce.
I have English friends but I give them a bloody hard time when it comes to politics, but there are personality traits and qualities of humanity that endear them to me.
Lets cut the anti English inferiority complex and get on with self determination on this Island.
Or are you Southerners scared of self determination without our firm Scottish guidance.
If you want we will resolve the West Lothian question by voting on only English matters and keep you on the straight and narrow, but only for a fair price.
As for tourism there is 5 million of us in Scotland and 40 million out side there aint going to be any tourism crisis when we get independence, I`m coming home if it happens.
it will be a case of Hi honey I`m home
You just have to love Scotland........or leave.

I just love the way it is insinuated that if some one is a unionist then they are not truly Scottish.
Vote SNP get independence then you can vote for what ever party you like after wards, that is a strange way to look at things if you are in favour of the union.
Why not just vote one of the parties that are in favour of the union in the first place and not waste time on a referendum.
There won't be a referendum if unionist gain more than 50% of the seats you are being told that now.
Democracy at work they tell you now what their intentions are it is up to you to vote in May for what you want and then accept that the people have voted for what they want and get on with it.

183 - agree about the Christian nutter Ewing. An embarrassment to the cause of independence. Just as well that the Libdems are a bit ambiguous on matters of morality and sexualtiy. Remember how 'the Straight canidate' turned out to be gay himself?

#192 Jacobite: Yes those men such as Alexander Graham Bell and Livingston to name but a few of the many great Scots who were forced out of Scotland in order to keep up with the world in terms of progress and development.

Say, are you still going to Peebles on holiday?

Quite 191. 194 & 195. But just at this moment I'm with Poster 177.

Got home very late last night as some Glasgow Ned put a golf club thro' our car side window.

According to petrol station cashier (we were re-fuelling at the time) it was our London number plate that annoyed !! Anyway furthers our support for English Independence.

Strathclyde Police were great 'tho.

What day and time is it?

Must be signing on day that they both seem to be up and about at the same time!

Stu and Jacobite I meant

192 what a stupid we moron you are, colonialist aye my friend.
But why.
Foot and mouth in Dumfries and Galloway ruined my business.
I was bankrupted like many of my town folk by Blairs government for our inability to pay V.A.T.
So I moved my wife and kids to Australia for a fresh start.
You know the incredibly well co ordinated success the government had that saw our farmers at road ends with guns 4 weeks after the southerners lost control of the situation.
Many people got out of Dumfries because of ill treatment and dissalusionment, but if you think for one minute that my passion for my land is altered you are one mistaken fool.
If Scotland rejects wesminster control we will return but I will not pay a penny of tax to another Brittish government.
So I will enjoy my exile till then, but when I return come the same crap face to face with the many like me and your wee smug stare may need surgery.
No matter where I am no matter what country I am adding to, Scotland is mine.

"Lets cut the anti English inferiority complex and get on with self determination on this Island."

Grieg frae Oz @ 195

Which island do you mean - the one that you're living on or the one that you left?

Sorry about that happening to you Janis, the same thing happened to my fathers car down in Coventry becuase Scottish registered cars had an S in the registration plate.

What is the world coming to, dont judge us all on a few idiots, we all have them sadly.

Aren't all Unionist/ Loyalists in favour of the British nation, that is British Nationalists?

Is this the last refuge of the scoundrel, or does some kind Animal Farm double standard apply; "Scottish bad/ British good"?

Maisie & Janis,

I'm actually quite surprised that the neds of Glasgow or the chavs of Coventry would recognise a number plate from somewhere else. I didn't think half of them could read!

My uncle regularly travels here and has two saltires either side of his number plate....... he's never had any bother.

I think thugs are thugs are thugs... wherever you go.

203 the one I left, I thought that would have been self evident from context obviously it had to be pointed out for you,

"Well, I know it is non-negotiable before the election."

It would be nicer if the SLD had something positive to insist on (excluding their insane commitment to 100% windmills etc of course).

The libs have spoken,more tripe.When are politicians going to wake up,we decide,not you.We put you in positions of power to act on our behalf.Thats how it works.People don't vote anymore.Because you fail us by doing what you want.And what has liar blair proposed in the past,make voting compulsory.
Going to buy a wee place to live on the moon,the clangers are great politicians.

Is this stance coming from the same hypocritical party who rubbish Tony Blair and tell him to stay at home while keeping him in power at Holyrood? Power for them rather than the expression of democracy seems to be their standpoint.

#177

What a sad, sad, sad little man. Yes, we are anti nuclear, yes, we are anti Trident, but no we are not anti English and anti US (although we are anti-Bush as he is a war-mongering oil merchant).

And as for the English people being attacked in Scotland - for every example you name me I could name ten in return where Scots have been assaulted for supporting their country whilst in England. It doesn't get reported because it's not in the benefit of the Unionist press.

You obviously want Scotland to fail and be a second class nation given that you are driving away tourists for pointless reasons - it is people like you (sad little narrow minded unionists) who make Scotland a shadow of what it could be.

It's time to create a vibrant Scotland - unionist you might want to leave. Success doesn't seem to be your thing.

#205 Jacobite: Actually I am not a budding Alexander Graham Bell, however, since South Africa during sanctions developed the worlds most advanced mobile cellular technology I would be in the right place if I were.

No, you may want to think a little closer to home as to why I am here..Sasol may assist you!

I do feel for you, marooned in a country you love, but dearly wish you could leave.

#171 Alan,
If a party leader expresses a view, perhaps contrary to yours, one of the benefits of living in a free country is that you dont have to vote for him.

So how is Nicol Stephen denying you the right to a referendum - if you get a majority you will get a referedum. Simple.
You might even pick up a few "rebels" from the LibDems, Labour benches as well.

BTW no-one has addressed the issue that if independance was just a few weeks away shouldnt there be more signs of public celebrations - after 300 years of oppression and watching the oil being used to pave the streets of london in gold ....

Once again dont turn a blind eye to this part of the article -

As one SNP source said yesterday when asked whether his party's position on a referendum was non-negotiable: "Well, I know it is non-negotiable before the election."

Sell out? Pragmatic?
Personally if I supported the SNP I wouldnt be to worried by that - a turn in government might just win them more trust and credibility - until then let the ranting continue.

I regularly travel down to the North of England every summer, sometimes even down to Bournemout, I have an S in my registration, a wee saltire on the number plate, never once have I had any bother myself, just bad luck I suppose if you come across morons.

Once in Stafford, I was left a wee note on my window screen by a traffic warden, it said "You are illegally parked but I see you are a tourist to our town so enjoy your time here and remember next time to park legally" I was fair touched so I was.

As many morons as there are in both countries, there are far more nicer people around. The negative stories stick longer though!

#213 Tartan: I beg to differ. Far too many Scots have an inherent hatred of England, hence why there was more Argentina tops sold in Scotland in 2002 than any other country in the world outwith Argentina. And to think some of our family members were involved in the Falklands!

Its a sad reflection of how sad we can actually be.

Maisie and Janis,

I had a friend who was hospitalised in Middlesborough for daring to speak with a Scottish accent back in 1984!

These are isolated incidents that happen all over the world for one reason or another, so lets not get bogged down!

I don't Maisie......204.... I visit Scotland frequently. But, I also happen to live near NATO headquarters down here, so plenty of Scots. cars in local Supermarket car park, some with Saltires attached. I have never heard of any incidents.

Just very annoyed today. !!

#217 media

No, it's called rivalry - Rangers and Celtic fans don't support each other. Same goes for Arsenal and Tottenham, Man Utd and Man City, Hibs and Hearts. The list is endless.

I don't believe you really think it's hatred - you're simply using that to attack a political viewpoint that is as far from your fascist ways as it possibly can be.

#209
Hi Neil the quote was from an SNP source, maybe you need to reconsider your position.

As one SNP source said yesterday when asked whether his party's position on a referendum was non-negotiable: "Well, I know it is non-negotiable before the election."
Also here is few LibDem policy / acheivements - as well as beign if favour of windmills and all forms of alternate energy
The LibDems oppossed the Iraq war
The LibDems have secured proportional representation for the local government elections - the SNP support that
The LibDems have proposed Local Income Tax - the SNP and SSP support that
The LibDems have opposed tutition fees and brought back grants - no matter what the negheads say the situation is better than it was and is still better than the England
The LibDems have promoted freedom of information

Neil, hope that helps you make a a more informed choice when the election comes around.

Maisie you are right and its easy to get carried away with invective, you have a good heart and a canny mind, a voice of reason in a sea of anger.
Love and light from across the seas.

Janis,

I'm annoyed too - you never replied to my suggestion on the Union blog!!!

208 Grieg

It had to be pointed out to me ......... because I would have thought if you felt so strongly about Scottish independence that you would have put your money where your mouth is and helped to bring it to fruition here.............. not shouting about it 1000s of miles away.

You can't really change anything from there, unless of course you have a postal vote in Scotland. Do you?

222. Greig frae oz

And many x's to you too Greig

If you really want independence, then vote for the SNP regardless of what you think of them. Thereafter, you can go back to voting the way you normally do. The only difference is you will be doing it in an Independent Scotland. There is only one reason for the SNP and that is Independence. If they want to remain a party afterwards, then they will have to attract votes just like the others.

I come into this topic rather late in the day. I think that when the world generally is getting rid of the barriers any move to split up unions such as the UK, USA, EU etc is against progress. Climate change, over population, the African problem and many others require the human race to be united in its approach. For example recently much hot air has been expended in arguing whether the Iraq venture is legal or not, very little is said as to how post-Saddam progress can be made.

In the topic under discussion I get the impression that Jack McConnell would be more use going back to teaching maths. (There is a shortage of such people).
He seems not to be of the Donald Dewar capability. The Tories are out of the picture because of what Margaret Thatcher did. So we are left with 2 parties.

Labour after 10 years in office in Westminster is looking towards a further reduction in their majority at the least. A Scottish parliament from a different party to that in Westminster would be interesting to say the least.

The SNP under Alex Salmond seem bent on independence. I do not think there is a majority of those who are really interested in favour of going back to 1706 and before.

I think the Lib-Dems are currently the safer option. Without a sudden revival in the Tory party, very unlikely, the Lib-Dems will get my vote.

Jacobite my heart goes out to you mate but I could get out and did. I have no regrets leaving the way I did and for those reasons.
Come independance I WILL BE THERE TO BUY YOU A BEER MATE.
I was there when Gartcosh closed I was there on Calton hill. I have paid my dues I have made my statements but now its time for my wee people to enjoy their upbringing I will return to the fray later.

Yea AJ.......225......I,ve only just caught up on that forum..... some blogs !!! Congrats on 1000....the best.

Had I read it whilst up on West Coast I would have dashed across 'cos then it would have been your treat. Cheers!

#229 Maisie. Have you been reading the other thread about emails? Poor Greg, or his wife, may misunderstand.

#231 tomdonald

This country is rapidly turning into a hellhole due to policies imposed by New Labour. All you are doing by voting Lib Dem (not liberal or democratic) is voting New Labour back in. They're failing us on all fronts. At least consider the SNP. Ok, you disagree with independence, that fair enough but voting SNP doesn't necessarily mean independence - you will have your say on that in a future referendum.

234, Indeed I have, is there a problem I'm not really here? Do you take umbrance or something?

Much love to you

Maisie
xxxxxxxx

"Lib Dems sound a death knell for independence referendum"

So people who want a referendum will be all the more likely to vote SNP, and the people who want Labour out but don't want independence will be all the more likely to vote SNP. Have the LibDems thought this through?

#231 "The SNP under Alex Salmond seem bent on independence" er, well yes, that's the whole reason the SNP were formed in in first place

"I do not think there is a majority of those who are really interested in favour of going back to 1706 and before" Yes, your right, I don't want to go back to 1706, I want to forward to 2008 and beyond - in an Independent Scotland.

"I think the Lib-Dems are currently the safer option" There you go. You go off and be nice and safe.

Just say "No" to the Liberal Democrats and 'New Labour'...and if the SNP tries to give away public property to the Corporatist swine who run modern Labour as well as the Lib-Dems--vote them out, take the property back and run a free Scotland for the benefit of Scots instead of the City, Wall Street and other enemies of freedom.

#231 'going back to 1706 and before'

YAAWWWNNNN is that the time already?

The Lib Dems are a disgrace. I hope Alex Salmond tells them to get stuffed if they refuse a democratic referendum, and forces them back into Labour's arms. This will maybe make the Scottish people wake up to the injustice of our so called democracy.

Vote Lib Dem, get Labour
Vote Labour, get Lib Dem

Vote SNP, get independence!

Yes Doh 221 I know it was an SNPer but the quote seems to me to reflect the unreality of these stances on all sides.

I grant you supported PR & think it valuable.

On the other hand your position on Iraq was not one of principle because the party in principle supports criminal wars. Local income tax will be a mess - the problem is that council cists are rising faster than inflation not what particular method of paying them will be pleasant. Tuition fees are expensive & these particular chickens seem to be coming home to roost. I'll give you the FoI Act but perhpas Jim should have spent more time fixing the slopping out thing before the taxpayer got shafted on that one too.

The basic problem is that the SLD are not a liberal party, committed to free trade & freedom of lifestyle & have sold their soul for the chance to spend money on bigger government, banning things & sunsidising windmillery, none of which are things real liberals could support.

Denise I love the way you think I will carry that one with me

#224 Richard !!!!

You really suprise me.
Basically you are admitting that there is not a majority for independance. Why not?
Has any other country that has declared independance had less than 50% of its population. I doubt it.
Go ahead vote SNP, just dont be too disappointed if everyone else doesnt. That is frustrating but it is democracy.
A liberal democracy is when someone with minority opinions such as mine - are still treated with respect - check out the NEGHEAD posting from #241 Boaby - he seems reasonably well balanced individual.

So my defintion of NEGHEAD - for me that is someone who claims that everyone who disagrees with them is corrupt, stupid, incompetent, deluded, in the pay on london, on the gravy train.
I guess given Boaby intelligent offering I should add homesexual, attention craving, drunk, thick,

I think you'll find that there have been quite a few posts
in that vein today. Thanks Boaby your timing is excellent - you made my point far better than I could.

Richard 236......What do you want me to answer?

Read my Post 219. or are you confused about car registrations?

L = London registered
S = Scottish registered

Personally I have no experience of racists' violence, but obviously it occurs here. I endorse Unionist @ 177 in that Nationalism can turn very nasty, & I have said to you before that there is an anti-English element amongst SNP supporters.

I doubt the ned who damaged my husband's car even thought along political lines.

196. walter - Vote SNP get independence then you can vote for what ever party you
like after wards, that is a strange way to look at things if you are in favour of the union.” Who says to do this means we are in favour of the union. With independence the parties be they called labour, conservative, Liberal Democrat, or Numpty will surely just set up to be Scottish parties standing for Scotland on Scottish issues. The SNP may continue as a party but I imagine that once independent that many of their MPs may change allegiance to join other ‘Scottish’ parties more in line with their beliefs. The SNP stands first and foremost for independence and once secured its job will be done. For anyone foolish enough to want to go back into the union there will no doubt be a Scottish Unionist Party (there may well be already but I haven’t heard too much about them) who will probably attract the same proportion of Scottish votes as the Monster Raving Looney Party does now in England. It's Time.

Goodness me Scotsman!

Ive not had a chance to look at these postings, but my God, your title and subtitle are really overdoing it, even by your increasingly transparent fear-mongering standards!

'Death knell' - hardly
'Pro-separatist' - pro Independence, please get it right! Devolution was referred to as such by the Scotsman, and not given such an ugly tag, so please be honest!
'Extremely unlikely' - wishful thinking. The tipping point is coming .... Its Time.

#217 Media

Not that I think there is a problem with buying an Argentinian top (next to Brazil and Scotland 78 it is perhaps the most iconic), I would like to know what evidence you have to say more tops were sold in Scotland than in any other country outside Argentina. I've seen hundreds in Italy which has a huge number of Argentinian-Italians.

Sorry Richard... My post 247 should read " SOME" SNP supporters.

And it was the Petrol Station cashier who suggested the attack was racist, so perhaps it was he who was stirring it all up ?

#244 Neil,

I never said you would agree with what the LibDems have doen and/or believe I just thought of some stuff that I have read about.

Your point about them nor being a real liberal party is a bit thin - they are in all the international liberal associations and of course have a pretty proud history of defending human rights and minorities. I can still remember David Steel opposing the South African rugby tour in the borders - that act of principal might be a bit hard for the NEGHEADS to explain away.

As for free trade and big government - you just sound like a conservative - or an economic liberal. In the 1800s the Liberals supported free trade becuase they thought it would lower the price of bread - that was being kept at high levels by the Tory
landowning aristocracy. Now it perhaps keeps consumer goods cheap - but what has that got to do with independance.

As for big government - I work in the private sector but I am in all in favour of free education and health care.

But I digress - thsi article seems to be being distorted into a suggestion that the LibDems are defying democracy - by not being in favour of a referendum. How come?
1. People have a free vote
2. People will have choice between parties of various opinions and priorities.

I've seen the SNP sell-out to Labour here on Edinburgh Council.
They can get of their high horse and deal dirty with Labour when it suits them. And what happedned to Margo? Was she not towing the party line?

Remember from the article - and worth repeating -

As one SNP source said yesterday when asked whether his party's position on a referendum was non-negotiable: "Well, I know it is non-negotiable before the election."

Hello again Janis, I honestly was not aware that an L in a number plate was from London, I never heard of this practice until my dads car was damaged. Up until that point I was only aware that cars from NI had a Z in theirs, the story was so that cars from their could be monitered whilst in the UK (probably a false assumption though)

IF it was because you were English, then I dont think that these idiots would know about the L in the plate, more likely it was your accent they picked up on? Of course the possibility remains, they just decided to smash your car randomly.

Either way, its rotten luck and a major hassle for you.

I am away to visit the Buckfast thread and see how Dave fi Barra is getting on, he is on a roll today.

this from the liberal democrats - opponents of the iraq war, voted against it and profess outrage at it at every turn - yet they were still happy to work with labour in scotland.

they have no principles at all apart from self-perpetuation with a moralistic standpoint.

they are truly the electoral whores of the scottish political system.

... and i used to vote for them!

Pete #39
Are you by any chance imbibing some Cradle Mountain Tasmanian Single Malt as you write? Because if so, please send the address of the outlet.

Doh - you seem confused with the statement, "Well, I know it is non-negotiable before the election."

What is it you don't get? The SNP are saying that they are not going to change their policies unless it becomes in thier interests to do so (i.e. if the forthcoming election elevates them to a position where the can create a majority coalition). Only then will they consider reviewing anything.

How's that for you numb nuts?

249: David you've really got the Unionist Scotsman sown up, well played. They also have a wee scare story about the Oil running out (not according to the internal Oil Company Reports which talk of decades of Oil left....even more if you consider Scotland's needs to be around one tenth that of larger Britain).

People are not stupid. They heard all the scare stories about companies fleeing Scotland if we ever got Devolution, Banks and Finance Houses especially fleeing to more civilised parts of the UK and Europe. In reality we have seen an influx of business especially financial and that will increase after Independence, not to mention a hundred or more Embassies.

I for one cannot wait. We live in exciting times.

Thanks for all your kind and unkind comments. I did say I think the Lib-Dems are the "safer option" on the score that as Denise says its Labour, or Lib-Dems or Independence (SNP). In the uncertain future with the May election being under the new system Lib-Dem are almost certain to get my vote. I am too old to run the risk of the upheaval possible under independence.

EVERYONE SUPPORTING SCOTLAND !!!!
RIGHT NOW - GO TO THE MAIN STREET OF YOUR HOME TOWN TONIGHT - SPREAD THE WORD
ITS TIME
START PARTYING TONIGHT.

Independence = normal powers for Scotland

www.scottishindependence.com

Doh 252 we seem to be in agreement that by the standards of the founders of liberalism the current Lib Dems aren't.

I consider that selling your soul. I presume you consider it a pragmatic embracing of nanny-statism, protectionism, Ludditism & bombing. I think this is wrong, not least, because I think these are all bad things but also any short term advantages gained thereby are more than lost when the war or the economy goes wrong or when the lights go out.

It seems a bit strange to me all the unionist parties are against a referendum but the majority of the people of Scotland appear to want a referendum, whether it is to say YES or NO. So it appears that the right thing to do is have a referendum first to decide if there should be a further referendum on independence.We may then be able to call it a democracy and not a control culture.

#262 TomDonald - I had the feeling you were old. You've maybe got your pension set in stone, the house paid for, no real worries.
On the other hand, the majority of us who are working away and contributing to the economy have had our pension funds looted by Brown for his war. I do not want to blow mine or my two children's future on a Westminster administration. We could do so much better.

Voting for the lib dems is a wasted vote. We need strong people to vote for Scotland. We don't need to hide or take the 'safe option'. We need to embrace change and make it work for us all. I have no doubts at all that it will.

Nicol stephens is a weak politician who cannot hack it as a lawyer, you can take anything he spews with a large dose of salt.The fib/dums will slither in with anyone who will give this wee creep a job.

The lib dems have just lost one more existing voter in me... What on earth has prompted a party allegedly founded on principles of allowing choice (clue: LIBERAL and DEMOCRATIC). I will be voting SNP from now on - and letting the balance of the population decide on scotland's future. Nicol Stephen is sounding like a spoilt scottish tory.

273. Jacobite

I am confused, are there 2 Jacobites? How can I reconcile your last post with the one at 192??

The fib /dums should re name their party the unliberal undemocratic moronic party.

#267 - not sure what you are getting at - founders of liberalism - do you mean
Lloyd George introducing old age pensions?
Keynes in favour of economic intervention?
Beveridge defining the NHS?

All things that SNP supporters oppose, no doubt.
Sorry they happened before the SNP were formed so you didnt get the chance for a referendum on those things either.

What is your point about bombing? Are you suggesting that the LibDems supported the Iraq War. Other than voting against it at Westminster, attending demos and writing articles I cant understand what you base your opinions on - the postings on this site?

What about my idea of mass street demos / celebrations
in favour of independance - cant the SNP organise that - surely on such an important issue there would be no problem getting people onto the street - why bother with a vote - you dont beleive you will even get 50% anyway.

People will be dancing in the streets of Raith.
Or is there is a groundswell of indifference?

(26)
How does someone from South Africa know about our politics.
If you are a Scot, with recent Scottish political nuance, OK, - but if you still have a bone through your nose, back off.
In my opinion, any TRUE Scot can only want independence, nothing else.
Yes, it may be expensive, so what,- anything worth while, rarely comes easily or cheaply.
Oh to be rid of the Westminster hoodlums and the Joke McConnells' as well.
Oh to be totally responsible for our own destiny in all respects.
Juts look at the other small nations like Norway who have an enviable stature in economic terms.

No, this post Jacobite?

"To all you colonials all over the world with your worthless opinions, did the tough get going when the going got tough, is that why you all left Scotland, I say that you are spineless creatures and Scotland is a far better place without the likes of you becase if you had any passion for your country you would have stood your ground.
But I forgot you cannot educate pork, "Oh my, what a shame, never mind.
SCOTLAND FOR EVER"

If as you say you are abroad at the minute, how can you have posted this?

Like you, I am abroad, but unlike you I believe anyone Scottish, no matter where they are in the world, have a right to an opinion on Scottish affairs, even if that opinion doesnt suit.

If they intend to return and are temporarily out of the country, then their opinions count massively. If they never intend to return, then their opinions still count as there are a multitude of reasons why they may have had to leave the country in the first place, leaving does not make you a traitor. Just because you are not physically IN Scotland, does not mean you love it any less or care about its well being and future.

11
Appologies for not ridiculing you earlier! The fact is every test of public opinion has shown support for independence well above that for the SNP.Why Im not sure but a referendum is the solution of course.
In any democracy its neccessary to measure public opinion which is why we have elections,and there will always be change,What applies today does not apply tomorrow.Im glad because we would still be in caves if it were so"!You would appear to argue from a position of confusion,I thought everybody understood this.
Clearly I am wrong.

Doh 277 you really seem to be flailing around if you are trying to say that either I or the SNP have ever said they don't approve of the NHS, pensions or governemntcontrol of the money supply??

I am not suggesting but stating that the LibDems are entirely & actively in favour of illegal wars in principle & that it is wholly dishonest of them to suggest otherwise after supporting KLA & Croatian Nazi genocide.

If you honestly want to arrange a demonstration in favour of independence, or even in favour of anything the SLD support, I wish you well of it. The Lib Dem's ability to organise street demonstrations has not been particularly noticeable heretofore though you do seem to be the first of the breed to have appeared here..

So this is Mr Stepens' idea of democracy? He should change the name of his party to Liberal Communists if that's not an oxymoron! Did the LiarDems say the same thing about Labour policies and proposals when they jumped into bed with them in 1997. No bl**dy fear! Just let us at the trough!

I cannot understand Scots who will vote for anyone who does not support independence. What have you gor to lose. Nothing but your Westminster chains. We have been told countless times by the pro unionists that we are too small, too financially weak and incapable of running our own country. Now, during his recent visit Bliar, says that Edinburgh is a major financial centre because of the union. He can't have it both ways. Remember that Edinburgh is a major player in the international financial market in its own right. Two of the top ten companies in the Footsie 100 are Scottish banks worth more than 100 billion pounds between them. So who is telling lies?

Many of the posters say that what is the point of voting for independence when we are governed from Brussels. Think about it, particularly the fishing industry. All negotiations are carried out on our behalf by Westminster and they don't exactly stretch themselves. Without Westminster we would be able to represent ourselves to maximum benefit in Brussels. It makes me sick that anti independence supporters say we are too small. Have a look at Luxembourg which has been a member of the European Community since inception and then look at Malta, Cyprus, etc, much tinier than we are and less economically powerful; then look at Finland and other countries of similar size to Scotland and all the eatern European countries that clamoured to join. I wonder why? Couldn't be the benefits and strengths of being an independent member of a large, powerful economic entity, could it?

Don't be stupid, get out on May 3 and vote SNP into power so that we can acquire independence!

#278 Robin: Your a fiesty young lady now arent you!

Fortunatley I live in Scotland for a good couple of months per annum, so I am well aware of the political spectrum.

AND SNP is not the way we are going! May will deliver us that verdict

#280, well said Maisie. There is too much of this 'your opinion doesnt count cos you dont live here' goes on in these forums. As Sean Connery once said "it is my birthright" to have an opinion on the country of my birth. I have never voted or applied for citizenship in Ireland because I dont believe i have a right to influence politics here when I want to return to Scotland. At the same time i am prevented from voting in the Scottish election because it is classfied as a 'regional' parliment and only people living in the 'region' can vote. Bizzarely I am entitled to vote in the westminster parliment which is almost pointless because a Scottish vote there is almost a waste of time (as proved in the thatcher years). Consider this; an english person living anywhere in the world can vote for the english parliment, and english born people in Scotland (who account for 10% of the population) can potentially swing an election away from independance, but a Scot who is temporarally out of the country cannot vote?

Children - soon an Independent Scotland will produce the Creme de la creme of inovation, politics, economy and a down right feel good factor - lets stub out these poor poor LibLabConning Negative Cancers Right Now and move on to the Creme de la creme!

#177 Unionist
This guy is an idiot, anti Scottish (what kind of Scot encourages people not to visit his homeland) and a racist. I'm married to an Aberdonian and she is an avid supporter of the SNP and independence. Just let him rant....

Scaramouche isn't here so with apologies beforehand:

There was a wee LibDem called Nicol
Who thought the electorate fickle
He thought if he said no
The Scotnats would go
But he's putting himself in a pickle

202 Greig: Are you a jeweller by any chance? Formerly with premises in Buccleuch Street?

Alistair!! I dont think he is BUT is that where our wee Buccleuch Street jeweller went? Did he vamoosh to Austrailia? What a bloody shame, hope it's the same Dalkieth Buccleuch Street we are talking about?

Anyhoo, Grieg was a farmer I think, from the borders, I know of 2 farmers from my area who left for Australia also, they had no choice really, they had family to think of.

#288, Joe90, just looked at that post and you are absolutely right. In fact i would say beyond stupid, anyone who can critcise Nationalism then call themselves 'the unionist' has clearly missed something, surely a 'unionist' by definition is a 'British Nationalist'?

Maisie, I thought Greig was from Dumfries. I knew a Greig who was a jeweller and he was an SNP supporter, emigrated a few years ago.

#282 Neil are you serious?

First of all I didnt suggest that the SNP were not in favour of the pensions, the NHS, etc - I was pointing out that the Liberals were instrumental in their implementation and still support these forms
of what you called "big government".

the SNP fanatics might wish to consider that before they
spout more of their NEGHEAD hatred on this site.

What onm earth are you talking about Croation Nazis - your having a laugh surely - are you suggesting that liberals are in favour of genocide. Wow - you are really stretching the envelope there. Go for it daddy.

As for street demonstrations regarding independance - I am being completly serious - of course the LibDems could not deliver such a demonstration of public feeling - they are a minority party.

But surely a party espousing independance carried forward by a groundswell of popular supprt could arrange such event(s)?
That way there would be no need for a referendum - the people would have spoken with their feet.

Do you think that such public demonstrations are going to happen? If not why not?

If they cant happen due to lack of support what is so unreasonable about expecting the pro-indpenendance parties or candidates (such as Margo) to command a majority in the parliament? Isn't that democracy, the will of the majority?

And as I have said before is is a liberal democracy for the majority to respect the views of the minority(s) - not that you see much of that on this site.
Too many negheads,

#293 lol naughty boy! (not too shabby an idea though)

There was a jeweller shut down in Dalkeith recently, I am sure it was in Buccleugh street, obviously a coincidence then.

I think but am not sure Grieg said at one point he was previously a farmer though.

why would anybody want to vote libdem?there just another bunch of lossers, tossers,gimps, p##fs, erse lickers just look at jacks erse the cleanest in the EU.

the lib dems have historically just licked up the leftovers from the floor, they only exist really to mop up the votes against Labour and the Tories, they are a pain in the bum really. Count for nothing, they are only there because of protest votes.

Independence = NEVER!

We dont want it, we dont need it and we will never have it..Lets move on and keep making Britain great!

# 285 - "Consider this; an english person living anywhere in the world can vote for the english parliment ..." What "english parliment" might that be?

300 are you another sucker

Sigh, Media 1, why?

Same old, same old, Britain isnt great anymore and it only was great in terms of colonialism and conquest, please, give it a rest.

#289. I WAS here earlier. I'm #99. And I ain't spending any time on a half-decent parody on the likes of lickspittles like the Libdems.

300 and i dont mean a hen

Doh - several posts.

'A Lib Dem spokesman said that all people living in Edinburgh have two heads'

See how easy it is? - And it must be true because it's in the Scotsman. Strange he/she wasn't named, but then again it would spoil the article if they couln't include the anti SNP spoiler.

From your post at 246:

'Basically you are admitting that there is not a majority for independance. Why not?
Has any other country that has declared independance had less than 50% of its population. I doubt it.
Go ahead vote SNP, just dont be too disappointed if everyone else doesnt. That is frustrating but it is democracy.'

That's EXACTLY why we need a referendum!

People vote for many things at an election, and in the multi-party system that we have, it is virtually impossible to gain over 50% of the vote. Even in a two and a bit system like Westminster, can you tell us the last time ANY party had more than 50% of the vote?

And do you think for a second that if the Lib Dems and Labour were certain of winning a referendum they would oppose it?

#303 Maisie: Its the SNP crew who need to give it a rest. Their sort of politics is not wanted in Scotland, as we will see in May!

#302 Kameroon: Are you another sheep?

300 - Media 1 (Don't know why I'm bothering)

Who 'WE'?

241 BOABY: Hallelujah!!!

299 - Maisie

Your comment was closer to the truth than you know! - Judging by some of the leadership contenders. ;)

#310 Bill Dunblane: We is Scotland!

I have nothing against your vote for the SNP. You live in Dunblane!

But the rest of them have no excuse.

302 media 1-
NO,i,m someone who can make up their own mind on matters and i don,t listen to the brainwashing crap that you write,do you think for one miniute anybody even takes you serious.

188 SEDOV: Apart from not knowing the meaning of "articulate" you obviously also do not know the meaning of "fawning"

I hereby declare I am not going to allow myself to be irritated by Media 1 and his irrational rants any longer

Maisie

witnessed by :

Media 1 - you just keep repeating yourself but you make no sense at all. It seems obvious that your IQ is too low for you to be able to actually explain what is so bad about independence.

sorry i mean 308!!!!

Hi Maisie.......I've calmed down a little now, so apologies for over stating my frustration.

Car registrations can be interesting. Not always obvious K for instant means Hertfordshire registered.... You can learn something new every day :)

Hi Peter in Majorca. Hope you are well & warm. Very cold across Yorks. Moors last night!!

Doh 295
While I am glad you now say it would be stupid to say that either the SNP or I oppose pensions & the NHS I suggest you read your post 279 in which you said of them "All things that SNP supporters oppose, no doubt" which sounds somewhat like suggesting saying the SNP oppose them.

Is this really the best Lib Dem members can come up with?

I am not suggesting I am stating that the Lib Dems did, quite certainly & deliberately support illegal wars to help both the Croatian Nazis & Ashdown's KLA pals, both openly committed to genocide, in the execution of said genocide. I further suggest that this precludes members from suggesting, at least honestly, that they are in any way opposed in principle to aggressive & illegal wars (such as Blair's in Iraq).

" of course the LibDems could not deliver such a demonstration of public feeling - they are a minority party."
but presumably not such a minority, at least among those young enough to march, as the SSP/Solidarity who have organised many demos.

#307
Maisie is correct, we are all fed up with Labour and the lies they keep coming up with and the atitude of Westminster towards Holyrood
Its time the Scottish people stood up and told Labour where to go!
They set up Devolution as a sop to the Scottish people, hoping that they would be satisfied, but in truth, Labour couldnt give a monkeys about the Scottish People, as long as they remain in power
For yet another example, look at the Heralds report http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/news/display.var.1197...
Westminster just ignore and sidestep Holyrood everytime

#318 Sour Alba: Perhaps you are correct. I am not equipped with the faculty of mind to express the reasons as to why independence will be a disaster.

Oh well! pity eh

319. janis

Hi Janis, I totally felt for you though, the last thing you need when far from home is hassle. In a strange way I feel so bad for what happened to you, but I swear it wasnt me who did it lol

It would be cold across the Yorkshire moors with only one window!

Anyhow, I hope you had a good time before your car was damaged and I hope you will write it off and come again.

x

322. Media 1

Exactly, this is why I declare that I will not allow myself to be irritated by you any longer. You have nothing to say except espouse what you hear in your local Brit Society.

You offer no logical or emotional reasons for your rabid unionist outburts, you are agressive and confrontational in your posts.

Why exactly are you here when you know your own thoughts and have a closed mind to others thoughts?

Latest crap from Blair and his capicino monkeys, is he is spouting tha SNP dont want to debate the issues concerning the Scottish parliament instead of attacking him on Iraq
Either this guy is deaf or his idiot advisors are!
Alex Salmond (and everyone else in Scotland) has been asking for a debate with Jack McConnell or Tony Blair, either will do, this request has been widely reported, but seems to have fallenon deaf ears, as Jack is in hiding every time this pops up, and there has been no response from Blair
So come on Labour why not actually agree and take part in a live debate to be televised, or are you afraid that Alex will wipe the floor with eiether Blair or McConnell?

Perhaps cocky Nicol Stephens is prepared to debate live with Alex Salmond, any takers?
Maybe the LibDems can put there money where there big fat mouths are and take part in a live debate, as Labour are obviously scared sh*tless
at the prospect, so may as well be there grease monkeys

Whatever happens Children - Scotland Win! - Broon, Blair, Reid, Cameron, Menzies, Salmond etc etc etc

All Scotlands children

We rule now - we have ruled then - and we will rule in the future - thank you to all the unionists for keeping us in power - dressed up as whatever you wish to call it.

But Scotland Independent and running both the remaining Union and Scotland would be an even more pleasurable activity - we are trully the creme de la creme!

Hi again Maisie.....323 I was actually having a go at Peter Baleares because I know he comes from Yorkshire. But it was cold even tho' Strathclyde Police had helped us cover window with cardboard. I musn't go on about it no big deal. Cheers

And Scots should "sound a death knell" for NICOL Stephen!

Has he been to an American evangelical school?

Scots don't want to be preached to, instead perhaps it might be better for Nicol Stephen and his cronies to consider engaging the views of the electorate!

I hope people realise that the bastardised voting system we ahve for the pretendy Scottish parliament is the reason why INDEPENDANCE will be diffiuclt to achieve. The system was setup to make it almost impossible for the SNP to get a majority. Labour knew this when setting this up and were prepared to do what they have done for the last 8 years, govern with the Lib Dems in coalition just to preserve the union and sod any other political principles.

325. Edward

"Latest crap from Blair and his capicino monkeys"

I am in total agreement with your post but take exception to you singling out capicino's, capucinos are cute wee things that bother no one, they live their own lives out caring for their own family and kind, it;s a bit of an insult to compare them to Blair and his cronies? Maybe you should look to the shark family for likes?

I don,t know alot about the law,but i would like to know if a privately funded referendum is possible without the permission of the puppets at Hollyrood.
Just a thought,does anyone know the answer?

Same old fib dems, dunno why the people who vote for them don't make a stronger statement and just spoill their ballot papers!

325. Edward

"Latest crap from Blair and his capicino monkeys"

I am in total agreement with your post but take exception to you singling out capicino's, capucinos are cute wee things that bother no one, they live their own lives out caring for their own family and kind, it;s a bit of an insult to compare them to Blair and his cronies? Maybe you should look to the shark family for likes?

sorry gremlins got into my computer, so sorry for the double post

I’ve been watching some of the Lib Dem Conference on TV and their broadcast. It’s all very familiar sounding. A Citizen’s Pension, simplified benefit system, 1000 more community police officers, a local income tax…

Then it dawned on me – no it wasn’t the SNP I was listening to, it was the Lib Dems.

Call me suspicious as well as pernickity but if the Lib Dems are so against a coalition with the SNP why are they copying all the SNP’s policies?

#332
Interesting idea, don't see how it could be illegal. The unionists have said that even an official one carried out by an SNP led Executive would only be consultative therefore no different in practice.

#333 Sorry spelling mistake!
meant cappuccino as in the type of coffee
Blair is surrounded by Blackberry weilding graduate types swilling cappuccino, nodding endlessly agreeing to any drivel and coming up with hairbrained waffle

328. janis

You can go on about it all you want lol, I once had to drive home from Glencoe to Edinburgh with the front half of my car missing after a crash, the Glencoe police were okay with it as long as I did the trip during day light hours as I had no headlights, it was an adventure I can tell you that.

I am sure you and your hubby will laugh about it one day, just not now.

There was an unofficial referendum during the Section 2A kerfuffle sponsored by Brian Soutar I believe. I think they used the electoral rolls, which are public information. There should be no practical obstacle.

John M (11) wrote "If independence were popular enough for a winning referendum to be a remotely likely prospect the electorate would give pro-independence parties an outright majority". That's not true. People vote for different candidates for all sorts of different reasons. They may like a party's policy on one thing, but disagree with them about another thing. They may like a political party at national level, but vote against them because they don't like what that party is doing at the local level (for instance, here in Angus the SNP gets blamed for what Angus Council does). They may just vote for a particular candidate because they like that person as an individual, never mind their party's policies. Opinion polls have shown that while a minority of SNP voters actually disagree with independence, just under fifty percent of Labour voters SUPPORT independence, thirty five percent of Liberal Democrat voters would vote for independence in a referendum, and even twenty five percent of Tories support independence. The ONLY way to establish the true level of support for independence is through a referendum. Furthermore, opinion polls have indicated that somewhere between seventy five and eighty percent of voters support HOLDING an independence referendum, regardless of how they would vote in that referendum. Personally, I haven't made up my mind which way I will vote in May, or even if I will vote for ANY politician. But I know which way I would vote in a referendum. I am a member of Independence First, the single-issue, non-party-political, campaign for a referendum on independence for Scotland. We are DEMANDING a referendum, as our internationally-recognised right of self-determination. If necessary, we are prepared to ensure that the UK gets the same kind of international condemnation for its resistance to democratic self-determination as Indonesia and other regimes received.

vote snp

339. IWright

Tell me more about the Section 2A kerfuffle? I know nothing about it but am genuinely interested

340, Dave C,
Can you paragraph that for easy reading or did you cut and paste from elsewhere? As it is, its too scary looking to read in full.

114 AdamFostas, what planet are you living on mate, any road pricing is criminal at any cost. We alreay pay for our road pricing its called feckin fuel tax, when will you people ever learn that we, the people of Scotland are not going to stand for any of this dressed up crap, if you start taxing road users for using motorways and A class routes the traffic will just use the smaller roads instead. There is only one acceptable option NO ROAD PRICING AT ALL.

156 au contraire – is it the SNP that wants to bring in ID cards and force Muslim women to remove their veils and make new immigrants swear an oath of loyalty?

Don’t think so.

Why don’t you go back to explaining why Scotland is a basket case and Scots incapable of governing themselves? That seems to be your favourite line of argument.

Rulesbutnotrulers (19) wrote "Personally I'm against independence....but I'm in favour of a decent referendum" , while Media 1 of Cape Town (20) says "most Scots want to be part of the union". If you are so confident of that, then you will have no problem with supporting a referendum, like Rulesbutnotrulers does!

Oh my God, you poor thing 20c?! I tell you its a hard life for some of us, I was lucky the other day, it was only 25c, my portable heater has the year off.

Peter... 347...20c.....I.m so pleased for you !!

My two lovely daughters are going to Magaluf this summer, probably best they not meet you & your drinking friends ?!!

Take care

AJ (85) wrote "Too soon for a referendum anyway! The SNP will want to consolidate first of all". They would be better not to take too long. We in Independence First, the single-issue, non-party-political, campaign for a referendum on independence for Scotland, would demonstrate against ANY executive delaying a referendum too much. Surely the SNP would not want to have demonstrators accusing them of resisting the democratic demand for a referendum. Even if the SNP should be the largest single party, they would be better to remain in opposition, and let the LibDems and Labour try to form a very shaky minority Executive, than get themselves into such a position.

Maisie....Where are you please?

I am here Janis, was away doing the dishes

Evening all. A few points. The Scotsman's polls with samples of only a few hundred at most can not be relied upon as indicators of opinion. If a local and fervent group of SNP or for that matter Unionist supporters rally the troops, the results will be hopelessly skewed. Beware the Silent Majority!
345 Pernickity- Scots incapable of governing themselves... This same old hoary Nationalist chestnut implying of course that if you dont support thr SNP you are either a coward,an idiot or have no faith in the ability of the Scots to do anything on their own. As a Unionist I have Absolutely no doubt that Scotland could govern itself as could Cornwall, Bognor Regis, the Scilly Isles and Rutland! The big question is why should it? In the Union one gets the best of both worlds.
340 Dave C- I agree with you on one thing-Scotland should hold a referendum on the Independence issue. There is enough anecdotal evidence, polls apart, to support this. Ironically though, there are probably a significant number of SNP supporters whose vote is a protest vote rather than nod for independence or see the SNP as the right party for Hollyrood as a regional Assembly. The comparison for me is Quebec-Vive la Quebec Libre! Whilst sovereignty supporters were a majority in the Province, an independence referendum failed!

If the SNP win a majority then I doubt they'd give two hoots whether the LibDems give their permission to a referendum or not. It is not for the LibDems to decide, it is for the people, and I think if the SNP emerges as the largest party, regardless whether they have a majority, then that should be interpreted as the mandate for a referendum.

Maisie (343) wrote "340, Dave C, Can you paragraph that for easy reading" - unforunately, no. "did you cut and paste from elsewhere?" - no. "its too scary looking to read in full" - I accept that those with a shorter attention span may not be able to follow some arguments.

Maisie...353..... good for you, but where do you live with a temp. of 25c ?

I'm off to put electric blanket on...Cheers!

Can you imagine the hidden negotiable agenda from Forlibandlibandlib? (Power Plot Men).

OK, chaps, we agree that if we really need to negotiate with the SNP to remain in power (Ha), we demand to instigate a referendum on whether there should be a referendum. Then, if the majority agrees, we could always say that we are the true party of democracy which let the referendum take place. Forlibandlibandlib (Party policy).

124 and 135
B#gger off - we don't want to keep your rejects - Reid and Broon will have to be deported back home anong with all the other aliens they have allowed into our country.
151 Neither do we - I don't want to be mother to any other free country
195 Greig frae oz - will you stop referring to us as Southerners - we are English (or Racists to use the approved BBC term) and we too want independence
What's up Maisie - couldn't find a witness ? But you're right it's too late to turn the clock back - England is ready for its own parliament if only to stop Scots voters letting labour in again

360 FULL CIRCLE

Scotland has for too long slept in its union coma. Its high time it pulled itself together, stood on its own two feet and took back for itself some honour, dignity and pride as the Irish have done so beautifully.

Your forefathers fought and died for their freedom and now we have a snivelling bunch who can't even find the courage to vote for it? pathetic. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

316 Maisie- Serious question-why do you find Media 1's comments irrational and ranting? Bet you couldnt quote us an example!! He expresses a Unionist opinion-you may differ in yours but why be insulting?

It's up to the people..

If they vote LibDem or Labour then they're committing Scotland to perpetual economic mediocrity. Things will not get better.

Would anyone believe the LibDens on anything? You know where you are with the Tories and New Labour. Unionists and Brits to a man.

But the LibDems are a creepy bunch of unprincipled opportunist whose only political goal seems to be to get their noses in the trough of power - at any cost. You'd have to be politically retarded or incredibly naive to vote for them.

May 3rd: Vote Independence. (Twice).

Geoff, South Africa (354) writes "The comparison for me is Quebec". Maisie has already complained about the length of my posts, so all I will say about this is that, for dozens of reasons, far too many to go into here, it is pointless to make comparisons between Scotland and Quebec, they are too different. I welcome your support for a referendum.

#1. It seems pretty democratic to me! If the majority of Scots vote for pro-independence parties then Stephen will back a referendum.

Why should there be a referendum if less than 50% opt for pro-independence parties? Is that subverting the will of the majority?

If the people want independence, vote for a pro-independence party. That's democracy and stop whinging.

I am in the middle east right now Janis, its chilly here lol. it was good to chat to you today, come again xx

Night all of you

359 Porky England-"We English want Independence"
The Nats say"We Scots want Independence"Remarkable how yous all assume you speak for every single Scot and Englishman(and woman) Such arrogance! If opinion was so monolithic, this forum would be redundant!

Initiative/referendum is "king" here in California. A well-written referendum should be put on the Scotch ballot and not gamed into oblivion by "sic a parcel of rogues in a nation". If a referendum petition can lawfully be circulated there, as here, by the citizenry then please do so, combine it with a campaign to recall or vote out out opponent politicians of "independence", and cut the whining. If you have no such right, and the populace really wants "independence" you need a revolution. I take no position on whether there should be, nor the form of, "independence".

Comparisons to Quebec are pointless. Quebec stays in Canada because staying in Canada is in its interests - for all the right reasons.

For Scotland its the opposite, the Union is poisonous for Scotland and the only reason to remain in it is because people think that Scotland is already so poisoned that it can't ever get better and so needs England for life-support. Right now thats true - Scotland is on life-support, but it CAN get better, and with Independence, it would do.

This forum is full of arrogant Nats who beleive in order to be a "proper Scot", you must support the SNP!!!

359. Porky

catch you tomorrow porkie, its late here, but chew on this meanwhile, you talk piffle

Maisie
The kerfuffle was over the repealing of a section in a Westminster Bill that prohibited the promotion of homosexuality, it was the first big issue in the new Scots Parliament. Wendy Alexander, then a minister at Holyrood, announced with a fanfare it was going to be repealed. Because there was no consultation, or any apparent desire to listen to opponents, some people including Brian Soutar ran a privately funded referendum using the electoral rolls. A lot of people voted but I can't remember the result (it was all a bit of a storm in a teacup).

PS: Let me remind #366 that a substantial number of Americans oppose Bush's war in Iraq yet were unable to elect a majority of Democrats to the Senate nor have we been able to avoid the "surge" a.k.a. saber rattling at Iran. I can't assume that your English-occupied government represents popular will.

Afore ah go, for all Americans ... Scotch is whisky, 'Scots' are all us other humans from Scotland. Night all xx

#372 - who's saying your not a proper Scot?
You may be a Unionist, and misguided by your own prejudice or ignorance, but like you or not you are a Scot.

You would be more than welcome after independence, as it will take all types to run the land of Scots.

Night Maisie. Sleep tight.

372. The only arrogance I read is from those that continually adopt the valence of the colonial master in a put down manner.

Maisie [#376], your statement is illiterate, historically inept, and apparently dervived from occupation by English or the kirk, "Afore ah go, for all Americans ... Scotch is whisky, 'Scots' are all us other humans from Scotland." Or should I say that "Scots" is English and "Scotch" is Scotch? I'd say you'all have been "too long in this condition".

OK then, so Scots now know that if they want independence they must vote Nat at the election. That being the case, the election is a referendum in all but name. Let's see what happens. Nats don't hold your breath.

#351
Dave - if the SNP are the biggest party and run a minority administration they will introduce a bill to hold a referendum, those who oppose holding one will then have to vote against one. I think we should take one step at a time, starting with May 3rd....

Personally, I haven't made up my mind which way I will vote in May, or even if I will vote for ANY politician, come to that. But I do know I will vote when we get a referendum. Scottish Unionist (366) asks "Why should there be a referendum if less than 50% opt for pro-independence parties?" - because people vote for political parties for all sorts of different reasons. They may like a party's policy on one thing, but disagree with them about another thing. They may like a political party at national level, but vote against them because they don't like what that party is doing at the local level (for instance, here in Angus the SNP gets blamed for what Angus Council does). They may just vote for a particular candidate because they like that person as an individual, never mind their party's policies. Opinion polls have shown that while a minority of SNP voters actually disagree with independence, just under fifty percent of Labour voters SUPPORT independence, thirty five percent of Liberal Democrat voters would vote for independence in a referendum, and even twenty five percent of Tories support independence. The ONLY way to establish the true level of support for independence is through a referendum. Furthermore, opinion polls have indicated that somewhere between seventy five and eighty percent of voters support HOLDING an independence referendum, regardless of how they would vote in that referendum.

Scottish Unionist adds "That's democracy" - no it isn't, that's party politics. It's not the same thing. "stop whinging" - no, unfortunately for you and those who think like you, we in Independence First, the single-issue, non-party-political, campaign for a referendum on independence for Scotland have absolutely no intention of "stopping whinging". We intend to hold the British government up to international condemnation over this matter.

#381
Can you hold my breath by proxy please til May 3!

Keep voting New Improved Labliar or Tory Lite.

Middle England indeed!

#354
Geoff - opinion polls tend to be weighted on all sorts of demographic grounds, you can't "flood them" with SNP supporters. As for Quebec referenda, I believe they were pursuing something called "sovereignty association" and I understand the results were something like 49% for and 51% against both times, hardly an overwhelming rejection.

Geoff - are you "related" to Media1?

It would appear that only two groups of people want an indepedant scotland:-
1, The English people.65% in favour.
2, The SNP,but as May approaches I'm not too sure that the SNP really are prepared for independance or just want to hear themselves speak.

#366
"If the majority of Scots vote for pro-independence parties then Stephen will back a referendum."

Why should he, he says in this article that the LibDems were against the devolution referendum in 1997, presumably because of a mandate from the election. Logically and consistently (OK that's stretching things) if "the majority of Scots vote for pro-independence parties" then he should be in favour of implementing independence without a referendum.

#320 Neil - I am afraid - if you think liberals either condone or encourage genocide I dont think I shall be wasting any more time replying to your posts. Bye.

BTW very impressed by the lots of neghead hate posted since I went for a cup of tea (actually a pint after work) - Good work boys.

COME ON LETS GET THE "PEOPLE" ON THE STREETS
INDEPENDANCE IS JUST WEEKS AWAY
LETS CELEBRATE.....
NO NEED FOR A REFERENDUM
FEEL THE SURGE

262 TomDonald

I am too old to run the risk of the upheaval possible under independence.

____

Good evening, TomDonald

You are never too old or young to take the risk!

Yesterday my ten year old daughter asked why the government (meaning Edinburgh) didn't stop all the horrible nuclear weapons being replaced.

I explained that it was because the decision was made not in Edinburgh but in London.

Even at her tender age she was aghast that Scotland wasn't able to get rid of them.

I feel that there would be so much more to gain by being a responsible, independent nation.

What upheaval do you see happening?

How do you think that other nations with fewer resources than ourselves manage their independence?

The unionists have been out in force today eh what?

#4 Robbie

In the early 1950's, opinion polls were showing 2% support for Independence and SNP activists were having excrement put through the letter-box of their homes.

Today, we have a Scottish parliament, of a sort, with the SNP being by far the second largest party and the official opposition.

The Scottish Greens and both socialist parties also have representation in the parliament and both support Independence.

The Lib-Dems, although constantly saying anything they think people want to hear, support more powers for the parliament within a UK federation - Indeed had you seen their saltire-waving tv political broadcast this evening you'd be forgiven for thinking them to be more nationalist than the SNP!

Despite the constantly negative publicity of the SNP emanating from the British establishment, several recent opinion polls have shown over 50% support for Independence...

The SNP is going to increase its share of the vote and its number of seats in the Scots parliament on May 3rd. The establishment thinks the SNP might even win.

The party is also going to be increasing its number of council seats across the country resulting in the party gaining control of local councils from Labour.

Why else would they be attacking us with such venom?

There is no problem!

#390 do Laberals have an agenda?
Do Laberals support Democracy?
Do Laberals have any policies that they would go to the death with ?
Are you chameleons or merely opportunists?

Go on have another pint, and come back.

#206 Bill, I understand your frustration Bill, I was trying to suggest that the SNP limit their appeal by being a party and not a movement across parties - buy I dont if that would work either - but it might be worth trying. AS I have said before maybe the SNP need a taste of power before they can be taken seriously by the majority of the country (Scotland).
BTW the SNP do not need to win 50% there are other parties in favour of independance - greens, SSP, suntan tommy, margo the ego (as some member of the SNP called her) - a few rebels from LibDem and Labour ranks.
Its not impossible. Just unlikey. Thats whay I propose you hold mass demonstrations - lets say 500,00 people - I really think that
bring aboput independance quicker than you think.
But it is just not likely to happen becuase independance just isn't a priority for most Scots (living in Scotland) and not posting on this site.
Good night all you negheads - keep working on the charm offensive - or at least the offensive part anyway.

With oil at more than $70 a barrel, Norway is earning $1 billion a week. At this rate the government’s pension fund, the world’s second-biggest investment pool, will be worth $410 billion by the end of the decade.

I believe that Norway's biggest problem at the moment is deciding whether to spend the money now or later.

Its a hard life.

And no, they won't be spending it on Trident or in Iraq.

It truly grieves me to see what Norway has achieved in the last 30 years compared to what Scotland has achieved.

To think that Westminster believes that we should be grateful.

Wake up Scotland, to what this country could be!

Dear Mr puppet unionist if you will not allow a referendum on independece then you would certainly allow one on the continuation of the UK, as in asking the people if they want to continue with the same crap situation, when the result is known we can be independent!! Democracy you see.!!

We dont need a referendum on independence we need one for the continuation of the UK.

392. Maxie
Thanks for trying to cheer me up but really when one is abroad and living in sovereign countries for years where about 99.9999% of the populace believe in their own ability to govern their own nation and prepared to correct their own errors and mistakes I still can’t understand why the independence support is way up in the 90%.
Perhaps I can. Honestly it’s years of not known how independence feels and being fed a diet of “Hey you’d be worse off - England subsidises you” Here’s an example from another forum. “"…. think of what the price for a stamp would be in Shetland without the UK national cross subsidy."
I mean with a mind set like that can you see why Scots across the World despair?
BTW I did reply to the stamp poster (perhaps he hasn’t got email) as follows.
[In NZ it’s .45cents (about .15p) which gets a letter over an area larger than Britain (including Stewart Island and Chathams) would we get a better deal if we relinquished our sovereignty and were governed from London? I’m sure most Kiwis would give up independence if they could get their letters posted a couple of cents cheaper. . [what is it the kids say?] NOT!!]

398 should read
I still can’t understand why the independence support is NOT way up in the 90%.

Forlabandlabandlab. Still waiting for the bill Forlibandlibandlib. We will not bend (not negotiable).

Bill and Benders - The Power Plot Men

385IWright-what I said was that an opinion poll that only has a few hundred respondents from a population of several million can never be cited as reliable even if the sampling controls are incredibly stringent.
386-No I am not related to Media1. And although we both live in South Africa, I am from Durban which is 1000 miles from Cape Town. Are you related to my friend Robbie from NZ.After all you are both Nationalists!

Morning Robbie. Hows the land of the Long White Cloud today? In answer to your question of some weeks back, Robbie Burns Night widely celebrated in SA. There are probably several hundred thousand ethnic Scots both Brown and White in this country not to mention tens of thousands of Scots born

If anyone needs a good example of how much damage Labour has done to the UK economy it came in comments on the lack of funding made today by Admiral Sir Jonathan Band who claimed Britain faced a choice between remaining as a first division sea-going nation or turning into Belgium !

I think that should be Ban and Benders. Sums up the previous coalition. One bans and the other bends.

Now the bender (Kingmaker, hhfh) is acting the the part of that which bans. Doubt very much if that will be on their election banner.

403. Is that because of a decline in navigation skills?

#398 Robbie

That's about right!

If enough people tell someone for long enough that they are stupid and poor and reliant on others for their existence, then that person tends to grow up believing that to be the case. They lack self-respect and self-esteem.

Individually, it would be considered inhumane or indeed a crime of bullying.

Saying such things about an entire community of people is also frowned upon internationally. However, it seems okay to do so to what is in effect a Scottish national minority in the UK.

It does have an effect which is why it is done, but the effect is much less than it used to be and anyway, it creates a resentment which wouldnt otherwise exist and makes us feel even more different!

I was very encouraged by the Scots when we voted for our current parliament. Of course, it has limited powers and lacks real decision-making.

However, the British establishment was suggesting that we were voting to end the UK and also to "increase" taxes in Scotland.

In the event, something like 73% or so of Scots voted yes to it, with about 63% voting for what many of them believed to be higher taxation in Scotland to pay for it - dont quote me on the exact figures but it was thereabouts.

Defence, Foreign Policy and control of macro-economics remain at Westminster but a majority of Scots would, I believe, vote in a referendum to have these powers returned to Scotland etc.

I am optimistic with regard to Scottish Independence and even if we dont achieve it after May 3rd, any Labour Executive will be embarrasing and ludicrous to watch for the next four years as their party is gradually overtaken by the Tories in England.

There is really a number of explosive events brewing and all of them are in favour of Scottish Independence.

Believe me! I just cant elaborate on a forum such as this.

Incidentally, we have a major demonstration against Trident in Glasgow next week. It p

The remarkable thing about this article, which has yet to be remarked upon, is that Nichol Steven may have inadvertantly said something which might prove to be the future of Scottish manifestoes.

He said that what was negotiable was not going to be made public knowledge until after the votes were cast. A forward looking party, or indeed coalition of independents, should be transparent, not secretive, about the percentage of that upon which they stand is negotiable and give details thereof.

GIven that we vote in a PR system, perhaps this is the last Scottish election with confrontationalism as party propaganda guising as substance.

402. Geoff, South Africa
Hi Geoff - we’re well, like you we’re experiencing summer and have a town full of geriatric athletes for our biennial Masters Games. We have a Scottish River Cruise in March and I’m making up a questionnaire on independence and also finding how many are eligible to vote. The questions will follow the line: ”Do you believe New Zealand should be independent? ‘Do you believe Luxembourg should be independent?” etc., etc.,
Do you think these countries too small - too isolated - citizens too dumb”, etc. Among these will be the question “Do you believe Scotland should be independent?” Like in Scotland most if not all will reply YES to every country but when it comes to Scotland there may be with some with that mind-set that says NO that can’t happen the Scots are incapable. They are simply lesser mortals than everyone else, unless they emigrate and then they can make things happen. (There will be South Africans on board and I’ll let you and Media know their responses - they might know you, I‘ll ask).
I’m away to watch friend throwing, rowing and jumping for medals - me I’m after gold for imbibing.
I hope everyone (on the forums) behaves today/tonight and stops calling each other names.
Persuasion is more difficult after insults. Go on Bill be nice to Media and Royster - get them as signed up members of the SNP.

Ken. M

I think you have a point.

Scottish Election this time or next time:

SNP=40+ seats
Labour= 40+ seats
Lib-Dems ?
Tories= Some on the list.
Others= Some on the list

General Election after next = Tory Government at Westminster!

By the way, I don't know whether anybody else has commented on this or not, and I don't know whether Hamish MacDonell thought it up himself, or whether somebody else came up with it, but the headline on this article, "Lib Dems sound a death knell for independence referendum", is surely one of the daftest ones I have ever seen in the Scotsman. Anybody who imagines for one minute that, just because some LibDem politician has repeated his party's illiberal and undemocratic line, that therefore Independence First, the single-issue, non-party-political, campaign for a referendum on independence for Scotland, is going to say "Oh, well, that's it then, we might as well give up now!", is indulging in unionist wishfull thinking. Our campaign was formed in 2005, and we have the stamina to carry on for as long as it takes. We will certainly still be campaigning vigorously AFTER May's election.

406. Maxie
Thanks again Maxie. The ingrained ”we can’t be independent mind-set” is really quite frightening to behold.
Many of my Scottish friend here believe in independence (some of the old Labour supporters because of Iraq) but some you would hardly credit it. I was at a ’do’ just over a week ago and a table of kilted Scots associates were discussing the issue. One, who you would have thought a strong nationalist (always dressing in kilts plays in a Scottish band and attends Gaelic classes) started explain how ‘ridiculous’ the concept of independence was and how Scotland received millions of pounds from the London Government. Next another (quite out of character) said remember what they use to say “Home rule - Rome rule”. It made me realise that if a few think that, while enjoying living in a prosperous sovereign nation (that they would never want ruled from abroad) then unfortunately there are still so many with these outmoded and false notions in Scotland and will vote for Unionist parties because of these misconceived ideas. I can’t understand those who look at Scotland’s perceived role on the World stage and do not believe it can be improved by independence. The dignity and respect of its people will increase as will its relations with England and other nations. Have good bleather on the forum Maxie and carry on all getting the message to the masses to get out and vote.
Do you have an active ‘Electoral Commission’ in the UK that promotes people registering and getting out to vote?

156. Media 1, cape town “ Vote Labour and keep Scotland great.” Gosh Media - you do keep me smiling. I love it - you’re just trying to keep us in a jocund mood. thanks!!

sorry its off post but....!
anyone seen this.
http://www.express.co.uk/news_detail.html?sku=1227
Labour govt pm etc pensions .
Al Capone would be ashamed of this.
Socialist party or National socialist party...?

410. Dave C./ Well said pal. Nicol stephens is a non person outwith the fib/dums.If this is the best that they have, then they are in as much sh*te as they spout.

412. Hadrian
To paraphrase an quip about lawyers:
It’s 99% of (Unionist) politicians that give the rest of them a bad name.

412. Hadrian, in shock/ Me too pal .This is serious, should be front page news , but hey , who has the media,s editors under control?

412 hadrian-
it does indeed look like the A TEAM but where is the forthman.

360 - Porky

To a degree, I suppose you're correct!

#410 Dave

The headline:"Lib Dems sound a death knell for independence referendum" was quite intriguing in that it actually didnt fit in with the rest of the article.

It was clear to me from N.S's words that he is making demands before an election and will bend a little afterwards. That is what a coalition government is about.

I really cant see the Lib-Dems demanding and insisting on something democratic that they dont want rather than something inhumane that they do want.

That would be quite silly!

Ming's rough wooing didnt even go down that well with Liberal Democrats never mind anyone else.

or is it the three amigos

And there's this.
He must have had his cards read!
http://www.express.co.uk/news_detail_pa.html?sku=11716435...

394 - Doh (the ref. should be 306 btw)

Thanks for reasoned reply.

However, you didn't really address the points I made.

It seems to be a fixation with you, this 'street party' thing - (you're not related to Media 1 with his 'school uniform' thing, are you?) - but you WILL be welcome to join us in the party after the result on 4th May.

What's your honest opinion - do you reckon the Lib Dems will get more votes than the Tories? Or does it matter that your party will represent, if lucky, 1 in 6 voters yet still think they should be part of the government.

As an aside:

I'm not generally given to personal comments, but do you really think that comb-over Robert Brown is kidding anyone except himself? I can never listen to anything he says because I'm laughing so much. ;)

#257 Frang. No such luck though I must admit there are one or two Tasmanian malts coming onto the market.