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Published Date: 28 August 2007
MINISTERS insisted last night they would pursue plans for a Scotland-wide ban on all air weapons despite condemnation from airgun enthusiasts and a warning from a senior police officer a ban would not prevent future tragedies.
The SNP administration wants to ban all air weapons in Scotland and has started negotiations with the UK government to find ways of bringing this about.

A spokesman for the First Minister yesterday stressed ministers were determined to drive forw
ard a prohibition which would cover airguns, BB pellet guns and other air-action guns. The spokesman said ministers did not want to stop legitimate club shooters from continuing, nor did they want to stop paintball games or pest control.

But anybody in possession of an air weapon would have to prove they had a very good reason for having it to avoid prosecution.

Stewart Orr, National Secretary of the Scottish Air Rifle and Pistol Association, said a ban would be useless. New laws would, he insisted, put so many obstacles in the path of legitimate clubs that many would close down, while doing little to crack down on illegally held weapons. "They have not listened to us; they have just jumped on a bandwagon.

"If you look at offences committed by people with airguns, 99 per cent are underage and in nine out of ten cases, the guns are given to them by their parents. They are breaking the law but nothing is ever done to them," he said.

Mr Orr said the current laws were not being enforced rigorously enough with offenders often given community-service orders or other minor punishments for breach of the peace when they should be punished under tough firearms legislation. The law is changing in October with the age limit for airguns raised to 18 and tougher licensing for retailers.

Mr Orr's scepticism was reinforced by Tayside Police Chief Constable John Vine who warned a ban on airguns would not solve the problem.

He said: "I think we must remember that there is a handgun ban in place in Britain at the moment but it hasn't stopped, obviously, tragedies of the nature of the little boy in Liverpool being shot. So a ban of itself would take weapons off the streets but it wouldn't necessarily prevent that type of tragedy occurring again."



The full article contains 392 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 27 August 2007 9:32 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Airguns
 
1

ColinEdin,

28/08/2007 00:10:13

Of course it wont work. Being opposed to liberty never works. Every time guns are banned, gun crime increases. It is a fact.

2

Richardinho,

28/08/2007 00:35:48

I do wonder why 'air gun enthusiasts' are against this, when since they do have a good reason for having one, they shouldn't be affected?

3

,

28/08/2007 00:54:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 911542, Article id was mapped to record!
4

American,

USA 28/08/2007 01:10:17

#2-richardinho-air guns are a good, quiet way to kill rabbits eating at your garden, using your yard as a bathroom, and leaving holes all over.

5

Conan,

Here 28/08/2007 01:30:01

Just because it won't work does not mean it won't be done.

6

Guga II,

Rockall 28/08/2007 03:01:54

This is so stupid an idea that you'd almost think that it had been devised by the New Labour numpties. I'm beginning to think that some numptiness must have rubbed off onto the SNP.

7

SouthernSkye,

28/08/2007 05:56:26

I do not understand.
The headline for the past 3 days has been "BLAH BLAH BAN ON AIR GUNS".
Now thís story says .....
"ministers did not want to stop legitimate club shooters from continuing, nor did they want to stop paintball games or pest control.

But anybody in possession of an air weapon would have to prove they had a very good reason for having it to avoid prosecution"....

And the second quote/idea can already be enforced by existing law. So WHAT, exactly, are all these bloody stupid headlines about?

8

eric,

Lothian 28/08/2007 06:09:50

Birch the parents!

9

WestCoastBiggles,

28/08/2007 07:01:59

Two shot at the Notting Hill Carnival so the ban on handguns is definitely working.

One knifing at the Notting Hill Carnival. I can hear the SNP drawing up legislation to ban all knives......

10

gregg,

edinburgh 28/08/2007 07:22:37

glad to see the Scotsman actually publishing the views of the people opposed to a ban - and here's me thinking they were pursuing an anti gun agenda...;-)

Dear mr Salmond & mr MacAskill et al - please listen to these voices of commonsense - don't waste your energy on firearms - please focus on something more important to Scotlands citizens - drug & alcohol abuse, violent crime, health etc...

11

Jeeemy,

28/08/2007 07:24:19

Banning anything has never worked, was it not Adam who broke the ban first he used his pistol on Eve.
Post Hungerford the Politian’s banned automatic weapons. Then we had Dunblane along came the politicians again with a knee-jerk reaction and banned hand guns. One the legitimate hand guns were handed in it really all began, first when the numbers of crimes involving hand guns (including the Police crimes) appeared the numbers had to be laundered. Then along came the steady rise over the past ten (Blair) years, the Politian’s started wringing their hands, WHAT CAN WE DO ABOUT IT. We now have a case of sin just trying to get the media to perform the trick of pulling a solution out of the hat what out now for a case of BSE.

12

gregg,

edinburgh 28/08/2007 07:25:59
13

EG,

28/08/2007 07:28:57

Our glorious SNP administration is goingto waste loads more cash pursuing a policy that the experts have warned will be useless. Is the real agenda maybe that it is something to start niggling at Westminster with.

14

Cadgers,

Perth 28/08/2007 07:46:12

I do hope the snp have another think on this, banning things just disnae work. Beating any idiot found firing an airgun indiscriminately around the head and body with aforementioned airgun would do it for me.

15

EG,

28/08/2007 07:52:33

Scotland really is becoming bandit country.

16

Jay Kay,

Burntisland 28/08/2007 07:59:33

What the government needs to do is concentrate their time and resources on the big issue IE closing 22 schools in Edinburgh.

I despair and I am begining to think all politicians are a waste of space. How can this be justified???

Personally I think it stinks to high heaven, they see the land the schools are standing on as an asset that can be sold of to make millions that will get frittered away on useless projects to "imporve our society", what total tosh.

I am begining to think that what we need in this country is totaly anarchy and a revolution so closing 22 schools is the right way about achieving that goal.

So feel free to carry on, Trams school closures, ban Airguns and breathing while your at, introduce laws which allow paedofiles the right to hang around school gates and spy on the innocent children.

There will be a time when there will be an uprising and your all going to be thrown out on your fat a*ses.

But dont worry Im pretty sure your fat bank accounts from all the kick backs will be safe and sound in the English banks.

Sure Airgun bans are going to work.

Pity about the thousands of illegal handguns being brought into this country NOoooooooo that of course is not the issue here.

Throw every politican overboard and lets start again.

17

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 28/08/2007 08:05:17

Lets ban knees. They seem to jerk all the time. Those knees generally belong to lonely housebound types with a broadband connection who percieve the world through the eyes of misinformation, hysteria, hyperbole and probably prescription drugs.

The sad thing is, they are allowed to vote.......

18

connaughtboy,

28/08/2007 08:09:05

I personally believe that a ban would help. Surely it is sensible to make possession of these weapons illegal. As it stands society is condoning people possessing these and that sends all the wrong signals. I believe that many people regard firing a pellet at another person as a bit of a laugh and not really very serious. We are not really dealing with hardened criminals who use shotguns etc. So, the argument that this will drive them underground is flawed.

19

connaughtboy,

28/08/2007 08:17:47

#1 ColinEdin

I'm surprised you regard this as a civil liberty issue.

20

connaughtboy,

28/08/2007 08:19:55

#3 Gnasher

Please be aware these are not "toy guns". Some of the more powerful ones can deliver a pellet at the same velocity as a conventional gun.

If you don't believe me, check it out on the internet.

21

WestCoastBiggles,

28/08/2007 08:25:33

#18 Why is it so wrong to own one?

I really am having difficulty in seeing your viewpoint and I'm trying very hard!

To make posession of an airgun illegal you are taking a hobby/sport away from law abiding individuals.

To take your stance we could justify banning all cars as drink drivers and boy racers give the car a bad name.

An airgun/shotgun/rifle is only a tool just as a car is. It is not the fault of the tool what the owner does with it.

22

connaughtboy,

28/08/2007 08:31:08

#21 Let me give you an example.

Several years ago I was walking through a shopping centre in Aberdeen, during the day and mobbed with people. Some kids (14 year olds I guess) were sitting on a bench and I watched them shoot a passerby in the leg from behind. When the guy turned round in extreme pain these little darlings looked the other way, smiling, with the gun hid behind them. This went on every 5 minutes or so.

By the way, I wouldn't trust a 14 year old with a car either.

Hope this clarifies my position.

23

connaughtboy,

28/08/2007 08:31:59

#22 9cont) I forgot to add that they were using a pistol not a rifle.

24

WestCoastBiggles,

28/08/2007 08:35:42

#22 Great example but why ban them? There is existing legislation to deal with this kind of crime.

Getting it enforced with a zero tolerance policy is the priority not blatantly banning it.

To the best of my recollection 14 year olds don't drive cars. The segment of the population that do have a fair proportion of speeders, drink drivers and careless drivers who kill many more people in a year than airguns. Given your logic perhaps an outright ban on cars would be more deserving?

25

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 28/08/2007 08:38:59

Better ban catapults as well. And slings (look what David did to Goliath), and bows and arrows.

Oh, better ban sticks and stones and ban the arms that throw them. What else? Shoes? Hurts when you get a sound kicking from someone wearing shoes and knuckles should definately be removed at birth...or at least lisenced.

Any other things we should ban or license?

26

ianH,

Edinburgh 28/08/2007 08:48:22

22-Connaughtboy
Did you do anything about the crime you witnessed or did you just walk away?

27

EG,

28/08/2007 08:50:24

Dave,

Better ban religion as well - look at the problems it has caused in the past, and it's still happening.

28

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 28/08/2007 08:55:36

Ban organised football matches as well then. And colours Green and Blue and the Pope and Queen.

29

gregg,

edinburgh 28/08/2007 09:05:33

#20

there are powerful airweapons available, but not in the same league as 'bullet guns' and certainly not available to the general unless they have a firearms certificate.

And... did you walk away?

A 14 year old firing an airweapon in public at a person is breaking a whole lot of laws which are supposed to stop airgun crimes happening. I'm sure a lot of people knew bonini was firing a rifle out of the window where he lived, but just couldn't be bothered to inform the police or didn't want to 'grass'; which might have saved Andrew Morton from being killed.

30

EG,

28/08/2007 09:06:27

Aye, probably need to add black and white to the list as well.

31

gregg,

edinburgh 28/08/2007 09:06:51

make that general public in case you think i'm going all militaristic...

32

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 28/08/2007 09:10:42

Aye, true. This is fun, what else can we ban? Ties and moustaches.........

33

sceptic,

livingston 28/08/2007 09:14:31

#18
"I believe that many people regard firing a pellet at another person as a bit of a laugh and not really very serious."
You have got that absolutely right! No person brought up with an interest in and respect for guns would ever point even an un-loaded gun at another person. The problem is with people not the guns per se.

34

WestCoastBiggles,

28/08/2007 09:16:17

#33 Obviously reasoned debate as it has disappeared from this thread.....

35

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 28/08/2007 09:23:42

35

no, it merely highlights the chronic knee jerkery of the populous. Bans don't work, censorship won't work, turning a blind eye won't work, asking nanny to fix it for us is not an option after 10 years of Nulabour social tinkering which has achieved exactly the shoite we are all in now - prisoners in our own homes after dark and sometimes in broad daylight. Perhaps the government like that.......

36

There Must Be A Better Way...,

28/08/2007 09:26:35

The Scotsman has to be warmly congratulated for showing the other side of the story, thank you Hamish MacDonell!

To anyone who thinks that a ban would work, please listen to the Tayside Police Chief Constable and read my long posts #11 to #14 at http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=1358142007#comme...

A ban would be totally ineffective at stopping abuse, would severely inconvenience or even scupper honest sportspeople (including Olympic hopefuls like Scotsman Allan Ritchie, with whom I have the pleasure of practising with on occasion), badly affect people who enjoy target shooting (the vast majority of this sport is target based), and remove the safe utility of quiet, humane, and poison-free pest control on farms, golf courses, athletic grounds, council run areas, and private dwellings.

Any ban, legislation, or control will cost the taxpayer BILLIONS of pounds... is this REALLY where we want to spend our money, when alcohol, drugs, poverty, and poor education are such a major scourge? Focusing on airgun abuse is like focusing on the snowflake sitting on the top of the iceberg!

Meanwhile, the idiots will still continue to cause antisocial abuse, because the law will not affect them - they are already breaking innumerable laws anyway, and when they get caught, the punishment seems to be ineffective and they just reoffend.

The Police need more funding and resources to tackle abuse, punishment needs to be stronger, quicker, and wider ranging, education needs to be better, and Airgun Clubs need to be encouraged, especially in deprived areas, so that young people can have an outlet for their spare time, and receive proper instruction, and perhaps learn respect and discipline as well (there is a reason shooting sports are called disciplines!).

It should also be noted that there is already a whole raft of legislation that is going to co

37

connaughtboy,

28/08/2007 09:56:41

#24 & 25

Let's try using your logic the other way. Why not legalise all firearms with no-one needing a licence? According to your argument, this would stop them being driven underground, maximise civil liberties and remove the need to draw any lines between ownership of a catapult and of a shotgun.

Using your logic, this could then be policed on the basis of "zero tolerance".

The actual result of this would be catastrophic. Possession of all guns would increase, many more people would get shot (deliberately or otherwise) and the police would be over-whelmed.

Crazy argument.

38

connaughtboy,

28/08/2007 09:58:50

#26 Iain

I reported them to the security guys. I would have much preferred to give them a hard slap around the ear though.

To be honest Iain, the whole thing really shocked me and changed my views forever on this issue.

39

connaughtboy,

28/08/2007 10:06:09

#30 Gregg

My argument is that the idiot may not have been able to get his hands on the airgun in the first place.

40

Micropacer,

28/08/2007 10:14:20

//Every time guns are banned, gun crime increases.//

That is such a lame arguement. You can be sure that Gun crime would increase no matter what - you can also be sure it will increase more slowely is guns are banned.

Do you honestly believe more Guns in society = less gun crime?

If you do then your head is in the sand.

As someone that grew up on a housing estate that had BB guns, drugs ect that were rife year on year the things that went on got worse - it just seems to be a fact of life the humans push the limits of whats allowed until its banned.

41

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 28/08/2007 10:15:32

38

What? Fek off man, it's called sarcasm.

42

WestCoastBiggles,

28/08/2007 10:17:10

#38 Don't quite see the logic of your argument or why you would want to use my logic the otherway around seeing as it was your logic in the first place!

I'm all for having the existing restrictions enforced.

You are for a blanket ban (ref #18) with no regard to common sense.

Banning things has failed to work in the past and criminalised the hobbies of law abiding citizens.

No where have I said that there should be a gun culture as there is in the USA.

43

Norbert Dentressangle,

28/08/2007 10:29:03

Didn't this proposal come about as a result of the baby that was shot dead in Glasgow a few years ago by an air rifle wielding ned?

I wonder is the majority of air gun offences are actually an urban problem.

44

Allan(handofgod137),

28/08/2007 10:36:15

Should the headline not have been "Ban on airguns won't work says anyone with more than half a brain".

45

There Must Be A Better Way...,

28/08/2007 11:01:52

#40 - "My argument is that the idiot may not have been able to get his hands on the airgun in the first place."

Well, your argument is wrong. There are approximately half a million airguns in Scotland. Any ban would only see a small percentage handed in (about 10% going by the recent Brocock fiasco), the rest will be swimming about the general populace. It is too late to ban, and very late in the day to licence (it would cost billions), and in any case, as previously stated, these measures will NOT stop misuse, as the lawless will simply not comply with the law!

#41 - "As someone that grew up on a housing estate that had BB guns, drugs ect that were rife year on year the things that went on got worse - it just seems to be a fact of life the humans push the limits of whats allowed until its banned."

Drugs are already banned, but freely available, and cause far more problems than any BB gun or air rifle. Banning things does NOT solve social issues, it just drives them underground.

#45 "Didn't this proposal come about as a result of the baby that was shot dead in Glasgow a few years ago by an air rifle wielding ned?"

Yes, that was one of the catalysts. It was of course a horrible and utterly despicable incident. The fact that the killer (Mark Bonini) was a chronic drug abuser, obviously mentally ill, who was already banned from owning airguns prior to the incident, was KNOWN by the local population to be firing his gun out of his window, and was allegedly sold drugs by the baby's mother (Sharon McMillan), needs to be realised. It was a sad event is a sad and deprived area, where poverty, drug abuse, and ignorance have far too strong a grip.

#45 "I wonder is the majority of air gun offences are actually an urban problem."

Yes, it is indeed an urban problem, and not only that, but a deprived, poverty, drink, and drug stricken urban problem. How many other issues need to be solved in thes

46

Weary of Legislation,

Edinburgh 28/08/2007 11:46:55

This 'ban' poposal is nothing but grandstanding by the snp to force either the devolution of reserved powers (A win they can trumpet if they are succesful in the attempt to wrest them from Westminster or a win if they are unable to obtain these powers as it reinforces their claim that Scotland needs independence from Westminster to allow proper solution of local problems.)

All the necessary laws ALREADY exist to prosecute criminal behaviour with any airgun or firearm.
The problem is that the existing laws are not enforced regarding the criminals abusing airguns.

The solution is to tackle to root cause of the lack of respect for other people, animals and property.
I realise that anti gun people will not be swayed by logic, fact or statistics and that their blinkered view is only reinforced by political manouevering such as this.
Connaughtboy seems to be in need of some education on firearms law. The alleged incident is not one for security guards but could be classified as armed assault.
It wouldnt matter if the 'weapon' was a firearm, airpistol or an airsoft/bb gun. They all count as a firearm in regard to use in a crime.
I can sympathise with the desire to give them a thick ear as this would seem richly deserved however that would be assault.

I think what we all want a sane proportionate response to a problem. That is not to wave the magic ban stick and hope it all goes away.
We KNOWN from many previous attempts that it DOES NOT WORK and is merely a sticking plaster to allow the politicians to be 'seen to be doing something'.
Effective action needs to go after the root cause of the intolerable behaviour by a minority. teach them right and punish when they do wrong. Neither of which seems to be in fashion at the moment.

47

Alistair Bishop,

Dundee 28/08/2007 11:53:03

Lets ban alchohol...it's killed more people than airguns ever will.

I'm sick to death of lazy and unimaginative politicians trying to ban everything rather than educating against the misuse of what are, at the end of the day, harmless inanimate objects.

Until they fall into the hands of idiots airguns are no more harmful than matches.

To the poster accusing airgun enthusiasts of being 'little boys who need to grow up' (sic), in my opinion your lack of cohesive argument shows you to be more childish than any airgunner i know...perhaps you have a future as a politician

48

connaughtboy,

28/08/2007 11:53:19

#42 Dave

I think you missed my point....

49

connaughtboy,

28/08/2007 11:57:28

#43 WCB I never mentioned blanket bans. Obviously common sense would come into it ie licensed clubs etc. The ban would apply to members of the public who cannot justify having one.

50

There Must Be A Better Way...,

28/08/2007 12:40:53

#51 connaughtboy - I understand your desire to do something about the issue, but please understand that any of the proposed measures would simply not work.

The stable doors are open and the horse has bolted... Perhaps in the 60's a licensing scheme would have been rolled out effectively, but now there are too many airguns legally held by law abiding members of the public (half a million in Scotland, that's 12% of the population) for any such measures to be socially doable, legally upholdable, and cost effective, in the short, medium, or even long term.

Just look at how much handgun crime has gone up... and they are banned outright! It is a bad solution, the handgun ban cost us over 94 million pounds! What a waste of tax-payers money... And now our Olympic athletes cannot even train in this so called 'free' country because of this! Shame on all those concerned with this bad, ineffective, waste of time legislation (and yes, Alex Salmond was one of the 'people' responsible for this mindless legislation). It made the problem worse, not better! LEARN FROM YOUR MISTAKES!

Please check my post at http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=1358142007#comme... for the reasons for my factually held point of view - I would be more than happy to discuss any of the points, and would certainly be interested in any potentially effective and proportionate proposals to tackle the problem.

51

Photoguy,

28/08/2007 12:46:56

At last, a paper that puts the shooters side across.

26. Ian, you say you watched this happen a number of times before telling security, as you seem to have the answers (ban the air guns!!), and must know the laws well, why did you not just dial 999 and report an armed assault, there would have been an ARV there in minutes which would have removed the problem in minutes, instead you stand and watch... says it all.

3. "The National Secretary of the Scottish Air Gun Nuts Association should reflect on the fact that most of the rest of us think grown men playing with toy guns is ridiculous and embarrassing."

So, you speak for almost 5 million people that think we are rediculous and embarrassing for playing with toy guns..... It just goes to show that you really do not know what you are talking about.. GUNS ARE NOT TOYS!!!!! Some of my guns are worth over £1000, shooting them in competition requires disipline and dedication, just because you do not understand a sport that many enjoy does not make it wrong.

Tarring everyone that shoots air guns in the same way as the idiots that do not give a stuff about the laws is like calling everyone that watches football as a hooligan, does that seem fair?

Why not stop attacking the law abiding shooters and instead help to get the police, courts and politicians to use the current raft of laws and sentences, a few maximum sentences would send out the right messages... or is that against the neds human rights???

52

gregg,

edinburgh 28/08/2007 14:06:20

Here's a quote from the gun control network website...

"Airguns (Convictions) - An 18-year-old from Barry who pointed an air rifle at a family and threatened to shoot them was given an eight-month suspended jail sentence and 150 hours community work."

Whether you're pro gun or anti gun, sentencing like this (when he should be getting 5 years) isn't what we want to see happening. Lock 'em up!

53

Navvy,

28/08/2007 14:22:37

Misuse of guns, knives, alcohol, cars is symptomatic of a sick society in which parents do not care about how their children behave.

At least part of the reason for this lamentable state of affairs is that for many (labour do goodie nanny society has taken from parents the sanctions and resposnibility which most used to exercise. It has also created a state in which others would prefer to turn a blind eye.

The solution is a change in society's attitudes which will take years to achive so we should start now by both (re)empowering parents and holding them responsible.

The rest is tinkering though it may help

54

Croydon boy,

28/08/2007 14:23:46

connaughtboy
"I personally believe that a ban would help. Surely it is sensible to make possession of these weapons illegal."
To me that sounds like a blanket ban. The high power airguns that have been mentioned already need a lisence, you can't just walk into a shop and buy an air gun as powerful as a real gun. Also, the teenagers you mentioned are already breaking the law, and would have broken the law when they first got hold of the rifle. If these laws aren't enforced properly what makes you think any news ones will? They will just ruin the sport for the general public.

55

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 28/08/2007 15:23:30

Oh great destroy my hobbies.

I am one of a large number of people who go airsofting at the weekend. We use BB guns on a licensed site, we all protective clothing and safety is paramount.

Why should we be punished for a bunch of neds running around using these things illegally? - There are already laws prohibiting the use of airguns and bb guns in public - there are age restrictions as well - a whole sale ban will do nothing, save deprive law abiding citizens of their recreation.

And how am I meant to prove I go airsofting if I get questioned for possessing bb guns?

Also, I regularly hunt rabbits on a farm in Dundee with a bunch of friends. I don't live on the farm, I don't even live in Dundee, but the farmer encourages us as we keep the vermin under control. The air-rifle I use stay locked in my flat between uses and it is only ever used for hunting -am I to be denied the use of it as well? Unless I get what, a written letter from the farmer, the police etc...

What about bows or crossbows? Which are lethal - will the laws be extended to them and effectively ban those sports?

56

Norbert Dentressangle,

28/08/2007 16:01:40

Nick, do you don face camo when your hunting rabbits?

57

Photoguy,

28/08/2007 16:20:11

There are peolpe out there that live in their little world, have no idea about what they are trying to ban but believe everything they read or hear. They think they are leading a moral crusade against the bad folk and just know that they are in the right.

Some even believe that all the fluffy bunny's don't do any wrong or cause problems, if only they knew that 6 rabbits eat as much as one sheep per day, they cause problems with their burrowing. They also don't know that it is law for them to be controlled.So, What would you rather do, poison them, gas them or introduce mixxy, all of which cause suffering or one shot to the head?

Here is an idea, why not go out and have a shot... you never know, you might enjoy it.

58

Not A Unionist or Nationalist,

Dundee 28/08/2007 16:53:04

Presnt laws aare to be honest perefctly adequate to deal with the problem. What is required is resources to police the law and a real willingness by the courts/children's panels to deal with the offenders.

59

Richardinho,

28/08/2007 17:19:50

if banning things doesn't work, then why does the US have a higher gun death rate than Scotland?

60

Gnasher,

28/08/2007 19:05:32

I want to apologise. Really I do.

Earlier, at post #3, I said "The National Secretary of the Scottish Air Gun Nuts Association should reflect on the fact that most of the rest of us think grown men playing with toy guns is ridiculous and embarrassing."

This clearly caused offence, and the post was quite correctly removed. These aren't toy guns. They are a Serious Hobby and a Real Sport. Some Perfectly Grown Up Men apparently spend Thousands of Pounds buying their Finely Tooled and Hand Crafted Instruments. The correct term for the adherents of this Sport is "Shooters". They are not to be treated with disdain and disrespect, and to perform in competition requires disipline and dedication. I did not know these facts and now I do.

Sorry. No offence meant.


I still think they should look for girlfriends, though but.

61

Miss H,

28/08/2007 19:38:12

A completely misleading headline from the Scotsman. And the piece itself is all over the place.

It starts off 'MINISTERS insisted last night they would pursue plans for a Scotland-wide ban on all air weapons'

Then they quote a government spokesperson as saying that ministers did not want to stop legitimate club shooters from continuing, nor did they want to stop paintball games or pest control.

So, not actually a Scotland-wide ban on all air weapons.

Then they have a quote from Stewart Orr, National Secretary of the Scottish Air Rifle and Pistol Association and Tayside Police Chief Constable John Vine who who said a ban would be useless and not solve the problem.

Well, maybe, but what do they think about a stricter licensing scheme which is what the SNP is actually proposing. Were they asked or did the Scotsman ask what they think of an outright ban, which the SNP is not proposing?

Then we have 64 comments many of which seem to be based on the idea that the SNP wants an outright ban not a licensing scheme.

What a complete hash. Because requiring people to have a license to own or use any kind of a weapon is a no-brainer policy really.

Would any of you support abolishing the driver's license? Just let someone get into a car and drive away? No? Well, what's the difference?

62

There Must Be A Better Way...,

28/08/2007 22:14:13

#65 Miss H - well spotted, the 'ban' word is indeed overused by both sides of the argument, as a simplistic tabloid sound bite.

Firstly, I beg you to read what I wrote in another post on this subject http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=1358142007#comme... regarding why licensing wouldn't work (there are too many airguns out there already, compliance with new laws on such matters is already proven to be low - and non-existent among the idiots that abuse them anyway, the cost to the taxpayer for a licensing scheme is way disproportionate to the problem, and it would not effect any solution).

It is already a criminal offence to posses an airgun under 18 years old, loaded in a public place, and to discharge such a gun within 50 feet of a highway or public footpath, to let a pellet exit your boundary etc etc, and of course it is very illegal to shoot at anyone. This doesn't stop the lawless idiots doing this, not their ignorant parents from letting them posses the guns in the first place.

It also has to be remembered when comparing this to vehicle licensing (286 deaths on Scotland's roads in 2005, almost one a day!) that again it needs to be proportional... we don't licence bicycles, for example. yet bikes are capable of killing people, and more people are killed by golf clubs than airguns.

#62 Richardinho - "if banning things doesn't work, then why does the US have a higher gun death rate than Scotland?"

Another good question. The US is a poor example (for almost everything). Canada has the same level of firearms per head than the USA, but it's firearms crime rate is three times less. 1/3 of Swiss households have firearms, but firearm crime is almost non-existent (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1566715.stm). It is not the guns that are the p

63

Jock Piewalker,

In the webb 28/08/2007 22:53:20

What is needed is for the Polis to adopt a zero tolerance attitude. There are too many Polis involved in cushy non confrontational work. Get them out on the street and where kids under 16 are found to be breaking any laws the parents lose their Family allowance until they can show them to be law abiding.
The problem lies with some of the youth of today, The answer is with the police and a robust punishment for parents who frankly dont care until you take money from them.

64

northern_lights,

Alaska 29/08/2007 05:12:38

It is so unfortunate that people always blame the symptoms of problems rather then the cause of them. Guns do not hurt people without an irresponsible or crazy person behind them. If they did not have access to a gun they would use a knife or a stick or their fists etc. Bottom line is that people don't seem to learn common sense and responsibility any more.

Politicians are also getting either less and less intelligent or have less and less back bone to do the right thing even if they know that banning guns won't do any good they do it anyway to please those folks who don't have a clue about life.

I feel fortunate that I live in a place where almost EVERYONE has a gun (both pistols and rifles). There is very little crime here and alot of people carry their pistols with them (I do). Even the local high school still teaches marksmanship. If children are taught to respect others and their property and use guns as important and useful tools then things will be fine. Poor parenting and dumb laws are the reason so many people grow up to be scoundrels.

I encourage all of you over there to not give up your freedoms...once they are gone they are very hard to get back. Living a free life is what makes life worth living even if it does have its aches and pains from time to time.

Take care.

65

cinstone,

U.K. 29/08/2007 09:11:08

Mr Orr's scepticism was reinforced by Tayside Police Chief Constable John Vine who warned a ban on airguns would not solve the problem.

He said: "I think we must remember that there is a handgun ban in place in Britain at the moment but it hasn't stopped, obviously, tragedies of the nature of the little boy in Liverpool being shot. So a ban of itself would take weapons off the streets but it wouldn't necessarily prevent that type of tragedy occurring again."

At least some people in authority look at the facts & make a sensible judgement based on them, but I doubt if this will make a difference. It seems that the SNP's are trying to "railroad" this through, without due care & attention to the facts.

I urge everyone against sytem of licencing or banning of airguns to make your voice heard. It may not work, but we can't just sit down & do nothing.

66

Photoguy,

29/08/2007 10:00:05

64.I don't know it you are serious but I will take your appology as read.

You finish off with saying we should get a girlfriend... great idea, I'm up for that... only problem I can see is that the wife might not be to happy.

67

Weary of Legislation,

Edinburgh 29/08/2007 11:07:41

There may just be a glimmer of hope for society if everyone can see past the hype and spin to the motives behind the soundbites.

68

Mr Smithe,

Dundee 29/08/2007 21:01:20

Miss H,it is indeed effectively a ban on those shooters who live nowhere near a club,at the moment i am not aware of any club in Scotland that has facilties to store the guns as the SNP would like.maybe the SNP will provide finiancial help to excisting clubs and indeed help start ones up.

69

Brandon the airgun champion,

Canada 29/08/2007 21:06:28

Absolutely , the hammer hit the nail on the head. An airgun ban only targets airgun enthusiasts and makes criminals get dishonest and they create black markets for them. The real solution is to make airgun crime the most serious one and zero tolerance for airgun abuse. You cannot just blame airgun target shooters and collecters for crimes committed with them , its these criminals that are a serious problem and they need to be caught and punished severely.

70

Brandon the airgun champion,

Canada 29/08/2007 21:13:08

A ban on airguns is useless!

A ban on real handguns and automatic machine guns is useless!

A ban on knives is useless!

A ban on any low tech weapon is useless!

If criminals can't get these weapons legally , they CAN get them illegally through many secret , ironic sources .

I always say " Airguns are for target practice and pest control , collection , and olympic style shooting and it shall not be differientated!

Tougher penalties , zero tolerant laws , and "no bail" for airgun crimes.


 

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