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'Mixed messages' of off-sales crackdown



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Published Date: 16 June 2008
MINISTERS were warned last night not to send out "mixed messages" if, as expected, they push ahead with plans to raise the legal age for buying alcohol in shops, but not pubs.
Kenny MacAskill, the justice secretary, will unveil the Scottish Government's alcohol strategy tomorrow. It is expected to include an increase in the legal age for buying alcohol from 18 to 21, but only for off-sales.

It is understood that Mr MacA
skill believes that those under the age of 21 should still be allowed to buy drink in pubs and clubs but not from supermarkets and off-licences.

The Justice Secretary is also expected to advocate some kind of minimum pricing framework for off-sales in an attempt to halt cheap alcohol promotions which have, in some cases, allowed beer and cider to be sold cheaper than bottled water.

But Fiona Moriarty, the director of the Scottish Retail Consortium (SRC), said the government would be sending out a mixed message if it allowed 18 to 21-year-olds to buy drink in pubs and clubs but not in off-sales.

The SRC represents supermarkets as well as smaller retailers, and Ms Moriarty said: "We need to educate and work with young people to help them understand the pleasure in enjoying alcohol responsibly and also the dangers of excess consumption.

"But this mixed message, that it is okay to drink in pubs and clubs, but that it is not okay to buy something to drink responsibly in your own home, is extremely confusing."

She added: "I would much rather see additional resources going into schools and youth and community groups to help young people understand responsible drinking and sensible consumption of alcohol.

"That would have more long-term impact than demonising alcohol for young people."

The expected move did, though, have the support of landlords and owners of pubs and clubs. Paul Waterson, chief executive of the Scottish Licensed Trade Association, said: "Supermarkets have failed to respond to the obviously irresponsible promotions that they have within their stores.

"And I think the government really has to take quite strong action on that."

The ministerial decision follows a successful pilot project in three towns – Armadale, Larbert and Stenhousemuir – which banned the sale of alcohol to under-21s in off-sales.

Nicola Sturgeon, the health secretary, defended the Scottish Government's approach.

She said: "The government is not anti-alcohol. But we are concerned about alcohol misuse.

"It is costing society in Scotland perhaps £2 billion a year, it has an impact on crime and antisocial behaviour, and it is taking a big toll on our health."

Scots twice as likely to kill or take own lives

ALCOHOL and drug abuse are fuelling higher rates of suicide and murder in Scotland, a report has revealed.

The study, commissioned by the Scottish Government, found Scots were almost twice as likely to kill or take their own lives compared to those living elsewhere in the UK.

Experts called for urgent action to tackle alcohol and drug misuse.

The Lesson for Mental Health Care in Scotland report, by Manchester University, found there were 18.7 suicides per 100,000 population in Scotland, compared to 10.2 in England and Wales.

Similarly, the homicide rate in Scotland was 2.12 per 100,000 people – compared to 1.23 in England and Wales.



The full article contains 562 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

subrosa,

16/06/2008 00:30:54
Spook the education thing isn't working. This has been a problem for a generation and more. At least our government is doing something rather than just talking about it. Hopefully this will be the catalyst for young people to realise they have to start taking responsibility for their drinking habits - and older folks too.

In pubs and clubs the licencees are responsible for ensuring nobody is served alcohol if it is considered they are unfit to consume it. Truthfully I have no idea if this is enforced as in my club, the Coffin Dodgers, only tea is served.

But I'm all for doing something and thinking positive.
2

Silence of the Yams,

16/06/2008 00:51:45
At least they are trying to do something. Some idiots will still buy underage kids alcohol when asked outside shops.
3

bring them on,

16/06/2008 03:12:21
Every child should get an inplant that stops them drinking, only to be removed when they turn 18.

For the Celtic fans, it stays for life.

That will sort out your problems.
4

Maisie from Morningside,

16/06/2008 04:53:51
I read the other day that the SNP wants to give 16 year olds the vote, but now they don't think they're mature enough to buy booze until they're 21.

That sounds logical!!!!!
5

bring them on,

16/06/2008 04:58:31
If they get a vote at 16, maybe they vote to lower the drinking age to 16 as well.
6

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 16/06/2008 05:18:55
A good Start, but more will have to be done to clear all the drunken yobs of the streets.

You will also need to ban drinking on the street.

You will also need to have criminal penalties for those who provide alcohol to minors.
7

bring them on,

16/06/2008 05:36:58
#12

If you clear them off the streets, where do you expect them to go?

8

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 16/06/2008 06:39:38
#13

To their home, that way if they engage in antisocial behaviour the only ones to suffer are their parents.
9

bring them on,

16/06/2008 06:46:37
#14

You're a hard man....
10

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 16/06/2008 07:25:50

"'Mixed messages' of off-sales crackdown"

"MIXED MESSAGE"!

Well there will certainly be,...

"NO MIXED MESSAGE IN THE BOTTLE" for our 'Teens'!

The 'Teens' Will get their Booze, 'Bottle or Can' no matter what the Politician's do!

The only ones that have "MIXED MESSAGES" Are the Politician's that, 'Quite Frankly' have NO IDEA how our 'Teens' work and think!,..

Will make wrong dissuasion's again!
11

expat in the sun,

La Oliva 16/06/2008 07:42:46
The problems with drink in Scotland are purely educational - yet the Governments try to claim its cheap booze and availability that is the problem - rubbish!!!

I live on Fuerteventura where the legal age is also 18, but beer can be bought in the supermarket for less than £1.00 per litre - wine for about £2.00 a bottle, and spitits are around £6-8.00 per bottle - in the bars and clubs it is also a lot cheaper than in the UK - and virtually the only people you see binge drinking - are the Brits and the Scandinavians - both places where alcohol is expensive and drink laws have in the past, and in some cases still are, very restrictive.

It will take another generation, with parents and educationalists setting examples to the youth on responsible drinking habits tro fix the problem. Here in Spain children start by having watered down wine with meals as young as 12 or 13 - with the water content being reduced as they get older - they are introduced to social drinking in a family atmosphere, thus you very rarely see young teen Spaniards puking up in the gutter, or having to be carried home - this is the perogative of the Northern Europeans where the more Calvanistic aproach to alcohol has pervaded
12

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 16/06/2008 07:45:36
I currently drink about 20 - 30 units per weeks, mainly red wine and I don't intend to stop. The liver's in excellent condition.

Put the prices in Scotland up and what will I do ? Firstly, go back to making my own wines (eminently drinkable) - cost about 50p per litre ! (I spend about £6 per bottle from my wine clubs, sometimes more so they lose out). Something we should all consider if we have the time; hit the Treasury in the pocket.

Secondly, The laws will not apply to England so we can drive over the Border and bring back the special offers; Given EU rules, they can't stop us.

Have you noticed the trade-off ? Force up the price of alcohol with a tax which more than compensates for any reduction in sales; nice one for the Treasury.
13

an interested party,

16/06/2008 07:46:41
do drug dealers have a age limit on sales ?
will drinking be just as a illegal or more so than drugs ?
why send our young into there open arms?

supply and demand, if there is no demand the supply will dwindle. if there is demand and no supply, by the very nature of its illegality, criminals will prosper.

giving yet more power to the unregulated black market.

14

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 16/06/2008 07:52:22
Also, I agree with #17. The countries with drink problems are mostly repressive or excessively controlling regimes with high prices for alcohol. Britain's attitude to drink goes back centuries rather than years or even decades. Education is needed. The attempts to develop a continental cafe culture need many years to bed in and for the culture to change.

It's Brits-abroad who are the disgusting (and foul-mouthed) drunks. In the French village where I used to while away the summers - until it became a haven for Brits of the shaven-headed, sunglasses on the head, builder's cleavage revealing trousers cut off mid-calf and beer bellies. Needless, listening to them, it's obvious why the French, amongst themselves, now more often refer to them not as 'les rosbifs' as they used to but as 'les ****-offs'.
15

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 16/06/2008 07:55:59

It will all only end up with more,..'Brew your Own'

And the,..'Bootleggers' will have a,..'Field-Day'!
16

Prester John,

16/06/2008 07:57:44
#17 as well

"Here in Spain children start by having watered down wine with meals as young as 12 or 13 - with the water content being reduced as they get older - they are introduced to social drinking in a family atmosphere,..)

Exactly how my children were brought up in Scotland. Do any of them go out for binges and look like Kenny Macaskill did at a Scotland footbal match ? Absolutely not.
17

jdships,

16/06/2008 08:06:50
Not quite sure what mesasage this "law" is sending out ?
At 18
One can vote
One can drink in a pub,
One can fight and die for ones country
One can drive.

Really can't see the raising to 21 stopping 12/17 year olds getting booze .
Will publicans be allowed to sell beer/spirits in cans/bottles as "carryouts" to under 21's ?.
If this is correct what happens when these people are stopped by the police on their way home with self same "carry out" ?

Surely one of the answers is cut the number of small corner shops with licences to sell booze .
18

thinking,

Scotland 16/06/2008 08:20:43
Why do so many young people drink so much?
Is it because they follow the example of the so called 'stars' of football, the 'pop' world, film 'stars' and models?
Find them better role models and perhaps they will change their choice of behaviour
19

Paul Spencer,

Glasgow 16/06/2008 08:21:34
#17 Couldnt agree more, the fact is that education from parents, schools is the way forward, however the fact is there is little legal sanction for the fact if you get drunk and disorderly you might get a night in the police station to sober up and then at worse an admonishment in the district court, a crimminal record yes, but not to a degree that you will not be able to get a job. Perhaps a policy of zero tolerance might be the way forward, rather than this daft proposed ideas about the 21 age limit etc.
I am really interested that the pricing argument has not been examined, as far as I can see it is a reserved matter from Westminster as far as taxation is concerned. Can the licensing boards set the price of bevvy, if so I would have a feeling that this may run in the face of EU legislation..... perhaps someone can advice me
20

an interested party,

16/06/2008 08:45:27
the upping of price would have little effect on the target user groups

add 50% to a bottle of cheap wine £3 to £4.50 hardly puts it out of the range of anyone yet decent wine £20 to £30 is out of the range of most already.

I am however glad that someone noticed that more people kill themselves UK wide than are killed on our roads, yet there seems to be a lack of a campaign here also.
and a worrying lack of support services.

support services cost money, raising prices or legal age limits however doesn't

if, as is suggested, drinking is a serious issue then can it not be treated seriously rather than with pointless tweaking of already unenforced laws

21

Miss H,

16/06/2008 09:36:07
Fiona Moriarty says 'I would much rather see additional resources going into schools and youth and community groups to help young people understand responsible drinking and sensible consumption of alcohol. That would have more long-term impact than demonising alcohol for young people."

Sadly it wouldn't.

There is absolutely no point trying to promote a safe drinking message in schools when it is contradicted by everything that happens outside of schools. That is the real mixed message.

22

Miss H,

16/06/2008 09:41:20
1 How much is a can of beer in Tesco compared to a beer in a pub?

The function of cheap booze sales is so that people can get tanked up before they go out and have to start paying pub/club prices. It costs less to get p@@@@@d that way

You know it, I know it, we all know it.

23

Thistledhu,

16/06/2008 09:48:00
license holders have a legal responsibility to ensure no one who is worse for wear gets served. no such control over offsales when you consider the average age group of drink related offenders it makes good sense.
24

Conan the Librarian™,

16/06/2008 10:01:25
A soldier returning from a tour of duty in Iraq or Afghanistan, cannot buy a bottle of Champagne to celebrate his fourth wedding anniversary, merely because he is twenty years old?
25

 Ayrshire Scot™,

16/06/2008 10:06:48
30. Good point Conan...this seems very silly... he could't buy a bottle of beer, but he could buy a coke to give to his five year old son....? Other soldiers are sent to Iraq and Afghanistan, but are banned from using sunbeds as they are too risky?
26

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 16/06/2008 10:12:35
And how long till we hear the bleat of the bigot and would-be tyrant :

"and if it saves even just one life, it'll all be worthwhile" ............

As usual, the numptocracy is good at ignoring laws which already exist (but which are not enforced) and passing yet more laws (many of which only affect the people who would obey them anyway).
27

Mike555,

16/06/2008 10:19:09
Its a shame that the vast majority of sensible young Scots drinkers are to be hit with this wonderful wheeze thought up by a man who spent time in the cells on suspicion of being drunk and disorderly at a Scotland football match. What an example.
28

Alan B,

16/06/2008 10:54:19
Think this is probably a good idea to raise the age to purchase alcohol in off licences to 21.

Would also probably like the age u can drink in pubs to be reduced to 16 or 17.
29

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 16/06/2008 10:55:01
How long also, before the supermarkets put pressure on brewers, importers & wholesalers to reduce their margins / prices whilst combining that with a reduction in their own margins to minimise any price increases ?

I still resent the fact that I can buy really good wines in the Mediterranean countries for a fraction of what I have to pay in Scotland.

I think it was said by Blackstone (?) that laws should be so made that they would be obeyed by the law-abiding as a matter of course and with neither let nor hindrance to their activities. As usual, we - the law-abiding - are being penalised for the misdeeds of others because the numptocracy do not insist on existing laws being enforced.
30

Alan B,

16/06/2008 11:10:59
#Mike555

Do u really think the majority of youngster drinkers, that are drinking outwidth pubs and clubs are going to be doing so responsibly. Yes some are, but the whole point of this would be to push people to drink in pubs and within a managed environment, rather than having people drinking on the street (which is illegal anyway but hard to manage). ie it is easier to stop youngsters getting it in the first place.
31

Rambo_the_Jambo,

Edinburgh 16/06/2008 11:12:16
# 30 Conan the Librarian™,

Simple.

He gets his mummy or daddy to buy it for him, or his in-laws, or his big brother or sister, or..... never mind.
32

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 16/06/2008 11:15:33
This is totally rediculous.

Scotland does not have a drink problem.

It seems that the SNP are bigger nanny state merchants than the labour morons ever were. They are making Scotland into the laughing stock of europe with their rediculous schemes and fantasy approach to power.

It is however refreshing to note that in the wake of the childish reaction of the government in wishing to push the price of drink up, Tesco have responded with plety of special offers on real ales and champagne. At least one sector of society can see sense.

Like Prester John says, any perceived problems Scotland may have are due to the lack of enforcement of EXISTING laws.
33

Rambo_the_Jambo,

Edinburgh 16/06/2008 11:18:27
# 34 Alan B et al.

The argument shoudn't be about who can or can't buy/drink alcohol in a supermarket/pub at 16/marrying age: 21 legal age to purchase.

It's to stop feral gangs of drunken teenagers wandering housing estates, streets and parks/Meadows at the weekend getting smashed out of their skulls on vodka.

Where do they get it, who is buying it for them.

On Saturday at 7.00pm two drunken teenagers p!!ssed in my garden, proceeded to decant the contents of a vodka bottle into a two litre container of cola, then joined the rest of their gang in the Meadows. They were stopped by the police Youth Action Team, booze confiscated and gang dispersed. Potential criminal damage nipped in the bud.

This is what the SNP are trying to stop.
34

subrosa,

16/06/2008 11:18:52
Let's try this and continue with the education of alcohol. Just because parents introduced alcohol in a family environment happens on the continent there will always be failures - children who become alcoholics.

One thing I really would like to see is the halting of many small shops selling alcohol. That's where the kids seem to get hold of it. I can hear the shop owners shouting they'll have to close if they don't have the profits from drink. I have no sympathy.

We have laws so let's enforce them. All this namby pamby business of the police in our cities at weekends 'assisting' young drunks. Stop that and arrest them for drunk and disorderly. That's what used to happen and it was a good deterrent except for the chronic alcoholic.
35

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 16/06/2008 11:30:28
20 Prester John

Canada apparently has an acknowledged and documented drink problem but by no stretch of the imagination are we "mostly repressive" or have an "excessively controlling regime".

The US of A also has an acknowledged alcohol problem and they are not "mostly repressive", etc.

Perhaps your generalisation was too general?

Alcohol is expensive here with all the taxes but that is the case everywhere. Making your own is sometimes the only way to cut costs.

But who would be allowed to distill Scotch Whisky or gin or vodka unless you were some kind of bootlegger from the 1930s?

You pays the price the LCBO (Liquor CONTROL Board of Ontario) imposes on you.
36

bluehead,

edinburgh 16/06/2008 11:31:35
if they are not allowed to buy booze until they are twenty one,then it must be important that the are not allowed to join the armed force's, if they are to Young to buy drink then obviously they are Young to be dodging bullets.
37

Alan B,

16/06/2008 11:37:33
#Rambo_the_Jambo

Do not disagree with u.

The question is how to stop youngesters doing what u are talking about.

For me that is to get people drinking in pubs and other supervised environments, rather than on the street.

Do u just arrest people for drinking in public or do u try to stop them getting alcohol in the first place to drink in this way.

"They were stopped by the police Youth Action Team, booze confiscated and gang dispersed"
Does seem a good thing.

It is difficult the whole thing. To what extent do u limit people liberty to do what they want and to what extent do u try to prevent the rest of society being disturbed by a few.

Personally i do not like pubs having to shut so early. Edinburgh was always good with pubs at 1am. also why can u not buy alcohol after 10pm in supermarkets. I find that very restrictive. U might work late and then come home about 10pm and then want a couple of cans or a bottle of wine and u cannot.

38

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 16/06/2008 11:40:20
Prohibition can only start a mafia and sales of poisoned bootleg - just as happened in the US.
39

Alan B,

16/06/2008 11:52:04
#Mikko

Whether this is right or wrong this is hardly prohibition.

Just means u would drink in pubs, rather than the street.
40

Rab The Ranter,

Ayrshire 16/06/2008 12:04:38
Now I am totally convinced the lunatics have taken over the asylum. MacAskill is a clown of the lowest order.

A devalued clown from a devalued government in a devalued parliament of a devalued democracy.
41

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 16/06/2008 12:20:17
Ok, all generalisations are dangerous - including this one.

However, my Canadian relatives would say that the way liquor is sold in Canada is VERY controlling compared to us with fixed prices which seem to border on the punitive as well as limited places to buy alcohol if my cousins are to be believed.

I was referring more to the European model so if it doesn't apply fully to the USA and Canada then apologies.

There are many countries with alcohol problems. It is not confined to Scotland - the Mediterranean ones seem to have far fewer problems and a far more grown-up attitude.
42

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

16/06/2008 12:22:33
"Why do so many young people drink so much?"

As our friend from Fuerteventura (is that yerself M?) points out, it tends to be countries from northern latitudes where this happens. It's quite marked that it's the Scandinavian countries, Britain, Iceland and Russia where drinking to oblivion is practiced and where a Calvinist approach has been taken as a result.

There has to be a question of whether it's self-medication for Seasonal Affective Disorder.
43

Boggle fey the Bog,

16/06/2008 12:24:44
If MacAskill et al are so concerned about bottled water being more expensive than alcohol in the supermarkets, then perhaps he should order an investigation into it.
To ascertain if there is collusion between the supermarkets and the 'bottled water' companies to keep the price 'artificially high', just as there was collusion between the supermarkets and the tobacco companies to keep tobacco and cigarette prices artificially high!!!

As an avowed nationalist, I think this Nationalist government should get their hands off our freedom.

There should be no votes for 16 year olds and alcohol purchasing laws should not be tinkered with, nor should minimum pricing regulations be brought in, and while they are at it they should repeal that disgusting act prohibiting smoking in private clubs, that act and it's contents run contrary to the Scotland Act, and as such is an illegal Act.

But perhaps charging, prosecuting to the full extent of the law and punishing the perps of alcohol related crimes should be the norm, not the abnormal as it currently is.

Salmond has a golden opportunity to bring Scotland to Independence, but if he continues to follow middle-class nu labour, chattering class, fireside socialist values he will be doomed.

So Eck get that numpty MacAskil and his fellow travelling control freaks under control or you will loose out, and big time.

We do not want Nu SNP/Owld Nu Labour, we want a Free Scotland, not a Granny knows best Scotland, if we want that we'll stay with the Onion!!!!!!!
44

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 16/06/2008 12:26:46
#42

Alcohol is NOT expensive everywhere. Recently I bought a 3-litre bottle of very drinkable Tuscan red wine (12% abv) for 6 euros (just over £4.50) dispensed from a large metal vat from a wine shop in a village near Firenze. That wasn't the cheapest on sale either !

In Spain, I have been able to get perfectly acceptable Tempranillo and Rioja for about 4 euros a bottle. In France, broadly the same level of pricing. I could go on with other examples.
45

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 16/06/2008 12:41:49
Someone once said nationalism is the last refuge of the scoundrel; when I listen to Kenny Macaskill I could be tempted to believe that aphorism.

I once met a Russian who drank in prodigious, almost industrial quantities. He said it was regarded as perfectly normal where he came from: long winter nights, confined to barracks because of the low temperatures, cheap vodka made from whatever came to hand, few other recreations ....

I've also met a fair number of Shetlanders who were topers of heroic stature. Again, long dark nights ?
46

Alan B,

16/06/2008 12:47:07
#Prester John

The french drink more than scotland.

Our problems is one of more binge drinking and youth drinking outside proper environments.
47

EK,

Edinburgh 16/06/2008 12:49:09
No one is saying that EVERYONE should stop drinking - if you drink sensibly and don't bother anyone else, who cares? You may be damaging your own liver(in which case you should be charged for medical treatment when your liver packs in or you're overweight because you can't control your intake)but again, that's your choice.

The problem is with people who make life unbearable for the majority of the public - often youngsters with no education or family life. Surely this law is aimed at this. However also, if you had more police and more detention centres you could arrest and lock up people who cause a breach of the peace and behave like animals and then get them or their parents to pay for the damage caused. I for one am sick of hearing gangs of brain-dead girls and boys and young men and women shouting, screaming and screeching their way around Edinburgh's streets, littering it with their food wrappers and uneaten chips, their vomit, urine and broken glass. What a great way to show off Edinburgh to its tourists who come to stay here at great expense... How long do you think that will last for when they see the state of Rose Street with its drunks, filth and grafitti?

Also the general public need to change this stupid idea that being drunk and getting wasted is cool. It's pathetic and it's for small minds. A wholesale attitude change and laws to match are required to solve it. And I don't want to wait a whole generation or two until it is sorted out either!

Also to the people taht talk about black markets - imagine what our youth would be like if drugs were legal - they'd be off their heads all the time... At least when something is not READILY available the chance of misuse is less - surley....
48

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 16/06/2008 12:54:12
#52

I can attest to that. In the village I was in, most of the French men seemed to be drinking in the order of 40 - 80 units per week, mainly wine and some beer without getting blazing drunk; a lot was drunk with food and then the rest was spun out over an evening with lots of convivial conversation.

Scotland has long had a tradition of getting hammered. It goes back, as I said earlier, for far more than just a few decades. I can remember some of our idiots getting truly drunk at 14 and 15 in the village where I lived in the 50s. Their parents had been the same too.

A long-standing problem in this country will not be eliminated by passing more laws when, as has been mentioned by me and others, existing laws which would have an effect are not enforced.
49

kimba,

16/06/2008 13:15:17
Only the SNP could dream up such a cockeyed approach to the alcohol problem in scotland,here's a thought,make it 21 in pubs too!
50

kimba,

16/06/2008 13:26:42
Have just heard brown is sending more troops to afghanistan,will he never learn.
51

kimba,

16/06/2008 13:32:19
It was only last year he was going to Reduce the amount,funny what a visit from Bush will do!
52

mobocaster,

Aberdeen 16/06/2008 13:42:09
So they are soon going to have the position where in many places it will be easier for kids to obtain class-A drugs than alcohol.

Or, do they not expect a boom in unregulated sales out of vans/back doors etc?

Restricting sales of alcohol is going to do nothing to change the underlying drinking culture - they will just get twatted on something else instead. :-(
53

Jimmy Jillikers,

Glasgow 16/06/2008 13:43:24
Well done the SNP, the time for talking and no action on Drink is long past.

45% of all Homicides in Scotland Drink Related.

Drink + Depression = 2 x English Suicide Rate in Scotland

The level of Journalism in this paper is woeful.

Point 1 - Off Licences and supermarkets buy as much booze as you want and get blootered then murder your neighbour because they dared to ask you to keep the noise down - we don't care cause we are making plenty of money.

Point 2 - Pub 18-21 still get to drink, yes where the publican and licensee are reponsible on their premises for the overconsumption of alcohol - right son you've had enough, time for you to be getting home.

Point 3 - the kids now don't get real jail sentences, so it is better that they limit the booze, in the hope that they have grown up enough to handle it by the time they are 21.

This makes so much sense I am surprised that anyone thinks there is a reason to argue against it.

Oh the British Retail Consortium will Lobby for its' members interests - mainly 30% of small shops income is made up from selling booze.

Perhaps this group is more self-interested than in helping to sort Scotland's drink problems out with a practical solution.

Their solution - educate young people to drink more responsibly - in other words don't nobble our most lucrative cash cows.

Raality check people.

Back the SNP and see where this country can be 3yrs from now.
54

Jimmy Jillikers,

Glasgow 16/06/2008 13:49:27
Prester John

It looks like your life revolves around alcohol, going on the content of your posts.

Perhaps you need to sober up before making any more salubrious comments.
55

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 16/06/2008 13:57:26
20 - 30 units = approx 3 bottles of wine at 13%abv, Spread over 5 - 6 days most weeks does NOT = drunk or a need to sober up.

Having an interest or knowledge of a topic is not a problem as far as I'm concerned.
56

Jimmy Jillikers,

Glasgow 16/06/2008 14:03:37
My apologies, do you think that under 21's are sticking to 20 - 30 units/week?

Do you think that they are widely travelled and understand the sociable aspect of drink in moderation with convivial company?

Or do they pour the cheapest booze in the largest quantity down their necks as fast as they can and then romp around residential areas until the wee small hours?

I think that the legislation is aimed more squarely at the latter than the former.
57

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 16/06/2008 14:07:52
I'm inclined to think anyone reading my posts would deduce - correctly - that I prefer quality to quantity and also prefer moderate drinking to drunken and excessive imbibing. (The 3-litre bottle mentioned earlier was for an al fresco party for 9 people by the way)
58

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 16/06/2008 14:20:36
No I don't. I'm not convinced that the proposed measures will have any noticeable effect either for a whole raft of reasons. Apply existing laws properly without fear or favour then see what happens.

However, my point is that it's not a new phenomenon nor is it confined to Britain. As far as Britain is concerned, it's a problem going back centuries. I spent some time reading about Victorian times (and earlier) - it's amazing how much alcohol was consumed across all classes (even though abv values would be a fair bit lower).
59

DonaldDon,

Edinburgh 16/06/2008 14:28:54
I think this is a nice try by the SNP, but it's a bit of a headline grabber. You have to look at why kids get drunk at 14, 15, 16 etc. It's probably because they have nothing to do, nowhere to go and therefore having a drink is a way of passing the time as much as anything. Scotland has a cold and pretty unpredictable climate, yet what indoor sporting facilities or indoor youth centres are there for kids to go to and play sport or just sit down and have a chat. The government needs to think long term, and build indoor sports centres and youth clubs. This should be paid for from central and local taxation and entry should be free to anyone under 18...once they are 18 and want to go the pub or get a bottle from the offie then fine, but if they know there is another way during their teenage years then this behaviour could possibly be carried forward once they are 18. Not only does the provision of such facilities reduce crime and anti-social behaviour, it should lead to healthier lifestyles and a greater participation in sport. Anybody think I'm going down the wrong track?
60

Foo,

ejinbara 16/06/2008 14:29:17
Ms Moriarty said: "We need to educate and work with young people to help them understand the pleasure in enjoying alcohol responsibly and also the dangers of excess consumption.

Moriarty? We all know what the other Moriarty(fictional or not) was like. Coincidence? I don't think so.
61

Grahamski,

Falkirk 16/06/2008 14:41:19
Our real problem is that our society now apparently sees it as acceptable to drink yourself into oblivion. Another problem is that drink is too cheap, you can get yourself blootered for the price of a packet of fags these days, the comparative price of alcohol has plummeted over the past few years. Making it more difficult to access alcohol for under 21s is a distraction, an obstacle, but let's face it it's not going to stop under 21s drinking , it'll just make it a wee bit more difficult for them.
Not a huge leap in the right direction really, however, if we were to get a lot more police on the streets...now who was promising that?
62

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

16/06/2008 15:11:56
DonaldDon theorises:

"It's probably because they have nothing to do, nowhere to go and therefore having a drink is a way of passing the time as much as anything. Scotland has a cold and pretty unpredictable climate, yet what indoor sporting facilities or indoor youth centres are there for kids to go to and play sport or just sit down and have a chat."

You're joking aren't you? The Council is never done throwing millions at sports centres. The rock-climbing hole, the Commie Pool, Meadowbank. Then there are all the parks and the libraries.

63

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 16/06/2008 15:17:51
What if there's feral youths in your neighbourhood.
Who you gonna call
SNP Drinkbusters
Drunken behaviour on the streets sure don't look good
Who you gonna call
SNP Drinkbusters

You're seeing folk so out of their head
Who you gonna call
SNP Drinkbusters
The mess and noise make you see so red
Who you gonna call
SNP Drinkbusters

Just don't call the police. They'll be long gone before the feds arrive.

64

Canadian in Edinburgh,

16/06/2008 15:31:00
Why don't they do what we do in Canada, don't sell alcohol in supermarkets! We have to go to a liquor store to get our alcohol and it works fine. No one underage gets in (been asked to leave even when I was with my mom when I was younger!), so they are strict. And they certainly wouldn't be selling alcohol to anyone underage or that doesn't have ID when asked.
I just don't see why you need to sell alcohol in supermarkets...I know some people like to pick up a case of beer or whatever while they are doing the weekly shop, but really would it be that difficult to go to a liquor store instead? It works just fine for us and we get our alcohol just fine.
65

EK,

16/06/2008 17:21:56
65 - DonaldDon,Edinburgh 16/06/2008 14:28:54
You say:" You have to look at why kids get drunk at 14, 15, 16 etc. It's probably because they have nothing to do, nowhere to go and therefore having a drink is a way of passing the time as much as anything. Scotland has a cold and pretty unpredictable climate, yet what indoor sporting facilities or indoor youth centres are there for kids to go to and play sport or just sit down and have a chat."

You're joking aren't you? What a pathetic excuse. There are LOADS for kids to do - you should go to the poorer areas of the world and see what opportunities there are there for kids. They don't behave like animals - this is something peculiar to our country!

I suggest you watch What Ali G had to say to Michael Parkinson about the opportunities for young people in this country - look it up on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ6k8tddDxg and watch the bit between 2:00 and 2:30 minutes.
66

Frank Murphy,

Glasgow 16/06/2008 17:51:11
The issue of minimum pricing is NOT A TAX.

It is a proposal to make it illegal for anyone to sell a unit of alcohol for less than a minimum price, say 50p. This would not affect pubs at all, and stop the sale of products such as large bottles of stron cider at pocket-money prices.

It is intended to sweep away the bottom feeders in the drinks industry, not affect the average shopper. And as it would impact at the point of retail sale, the supermarkets would be unable to get around it. It's a good thing for Scotland.
67

lilywhite,

borders 16/06/2008 17:54:38
#70Canadian

excellent points.
There will be plenty of time to adjust these proposals in parliament and come up with real forward thinking policies that will transform our dreadfull drink culture.The time for doing nothing has long past.

Has anybody noticed how the same student leader who last week was complaining about students living in poverty, is complaining about not being able to go down the offi and get a load of drink in for a party.Buy some books Mr Alexander and study instead.

Please note tounge planted firmly in cheek whilst making latter point
68

Indespair,

16/06/2008 23:31:57
And what is one the things being promoted in the great homecoming - whisky
69

Senga Jean,

16/06/2008 23:48:08
Off sales do not supervise consumption of alcohol...pubs do or should do so since the existing law makes it an offense for Licensees to allow the sale of alcohol to drunks. Ergo the SNP Government turn out to be quite logical.
70

Senga Jean,

16/06/2008 23:50:36
#74 The cost of alcohol is seen as the "controlling" issue. Expensive single Malts sold to the "knowing" therefore is not a problem.
71

Allis Chalmers,

Crieff 17/06/2008 02:15:39
#70 Canadian in Edinburgh.
Excellent points. Put them in writing and post them to Kenny MacAskill at the Scottish Parliament - he badly needs your help.

Nonsense that Supermarkets should sell alcohol, but sadly they have the politicians in their pockets.
72

PaulW,

Borders 17/06/2008 23:30:51
#59 Excellent post. I agree - my village is blighted by young folk, under the age of 18 getting plastered. When you phone the police, they take ages to get here. I am really worried about these kids, both in terms of getting involved in violence, sex while intoxicated (potentially sexual assaults for vulnerable girls) and indeed causing brain damage or liver/renal damage through early, prolonged exposure to alcohol.

Far better to teach folk that once they are 18 they can legally enter a pub and consume alcohol and as #75 says, you can then have responsible landlords control their consumption when they get to the stage they are drunk.

About time somebody had the blooming courage to step up to the line on this, so well done to the SNP. Fair play to labour too if they support it. The lib Dems and Tories are being thoroughly libertarian here - but what about the rights of sensible teenagers and older residents to walk the streets on any Saturday evening without being chibbed by some wee ned b'stard and his mates who are out of his face on buckfast / cider or special brew. When the serious debate starts, the Tories and Lib Dems (and Greens) are posted missing or, worse, opportunist.

Alcohol-related health cases have increased by 50 per cent over the last decade and alcohol-related death rates have more than doubled and almost half of Scottish prisoners in 2007 said they were drunk at the time of the offence. Think on that before you criticise this consultation paper.

 

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