Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


Ministers face legal headache over cut-price alcohol blitz

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 03 March 2009
THE Scottish Government is likely to face a major legal challenge after it launched plans to make the country the first in Europe to impose minimum pricing for alcohol.
Ministers yesterday unveiled the move as part of their blueprint to tackle Scotland's "booze culture" – a problem the Scottish Government described as an "epidemic" costing £2.25 billion a year.

The plan includes a ban on cut-price offers that en
courage bulk-buying such as "3 for 2" deals, and a "social responsibility" fee for some retailers.

A plan to raise the minimum off-sales purchase age to 21 has been dropped after protests, but individual licensing boards will be put under a legal obligation to consider imposing this age limit for their areas. A proposal to require drink to be sold at alcohol-only checkouts in supermarkets has also been shelved.

But the pricing proposal which may make the minimum price for a standard bottle of 40 per cent whisky £11.20, drew the heaviest criticism from the industry – although the move was backed by some in the licensed trade.

The Scotsman has learnt of at least two trade and retail organisations that are planning a legal case against the proposals, claiming they contravene EU and competition rules.

Gavin Hewitt, chief executive of the Scotch Whisky Association, said: "It is hard to believe any Scottish Government would bring forward proposals that are likely to be both illegal in international trade law and risk damaging the whisky industry.

"Regrettably, minimum pricing achieves both and undermines our success in breaking down illegal discrimination against Scotch Whisky around the world."

The strategy, laid out by Health Secretary Nicola Sturgeon and Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill yesterday, was dealt another blow after warnings that proposals to ban under 21-year-olds from buying alcohol from shops could also be illegal.

Audrey Ferrie, head of licensing at McGrigors law firm, said there was a possibility the measure, which has already been watered down as a blanket ban by the Scottish Government, may breach people's human rights.

"It is possible there may be a legal challenge to this," she said.

However, ministers have said they are "supremely confident" that their proposals will be legal and that they will be able to see off any potential challenges.

Ministers believe that they will be able to introduce minimum pricing through existing licensing laws by ordering councils to issue a mandatory condition that minimum prices are introduced.

Colin Miller, a competition law solicitor from Biggart Baillie, said that there is legal precedent with books and pharmaceutical products of allowing minimum pricing.

He believes that as the price limits would be set by the government and not through an agreement by traders it would also be safe from competition law challenges.

He added: "The Scottish Government could also make a public interest defence, as was done with books."

The Scottish Government has not publicly set a minimum price, but it currently looks as though it would be 40p a unit, although it could be as high as 45p. Health campaigners have demanded in the past that it is set at 50p.

Using devolved licensing powers means the Scottish Government will not need MSPs to approve minimum prices through further legislation. It seems likely that it will only need to be rubber-stamped by one of the committees.

This has infuriated some retail and trade groups who have said that the biggest change in years to licensing needs proper debate.

Scottish Retail Consortium director Fiona Moriarty said: "We were expecting the government to spell out the legal means they intend to use to achieve one of the most fundamental changes for Scottish customers in recent history. Instead all we have is a hint that existing licensing laws will be used. How can it be right that this major change by-passes full public and parliamentary scrutiny?"

Others described the measure as a "new tax" on Scots.

Jeremy Beadles, chief executive of the Wine and Spirit Trade Association, said: "Millions of Scottish families will wonder why, during the worst recession for a generation, their government wishes to impose a new tax on them by banning promotions and arbitrarily raising prices for everyone."

The SNP has bowed to pressure in its consultation to drop plans for separate tills for alcohol, partly because of the cost to small retailers at a difficult time. It has also watered down the plans for a blanket ban on under 21s buying alcohol from shops because it would have been defeated in parliament.

But, opposition groups have described the proposals as a mess. Richard Baker, Labour's justice spokesman, raised the prospect of "booze cruises" south of the Border.

He said: "They have got to show how these proposals can have a real effect and that Carlisle won't become the new Calais."

The Conservatives, meanwhile, raised concerns about a proposed "social responsibility fee" for retailers, although there were scant details on the proposal yesterday.

Nats' best chance to make a lasting difference

THE SNP's declaration of war on alcohol in Scotland is a risky strategy, but represents the party's best chance of stamping its mark on Scottish society.

As headline policies have fallen by the wayside, the SNP's policy portfolio has looked very thin.

Of course, the Nationalists' biggest goal remains a referendum on independence, but it seems unlikely that they will be able to get it through parliament, especially with the Liberal Democrats confirming that they will vote against.

So ministers have identified alcohol and the love affair Scots have with it as the biggest scourge they can target.

If their policies can really reduce the number of alcohol-related deaths and hospital admissions which mark Scotland out as having one of the worst alcohol problems in Europe, then they will have earned their place in history.

In the back of their minds, the members of Alex Salmond's administration will have the success of the smoking ban in enclosed places.

At the time, that also seemed to be a gamble which would anger voters, but it became a groundbreaking piece of legislation which the rest of the UK followed, and has already had positive effects on reducing smoking and improving people's health.

The SNP also know that, as with the smoking ban, Westminster is looking very closely at Scotland's lead and may well follow suit if the alcohol measures are a success.

But there is still a great risk involved. If the oft-used phrase of a "love affair" with alcohol is actually true, then people are not going to be happy at losing their access to cheap drink.

It throws up images of Father Ted trying to wrestle a bottle off Father Jack in the sitcom, only to end up with a black eye or a bloody nose.

There also serious question marks over whether using price and promotions as a blunt instrument to tackle a social problem will actually have an effect.

The end of wine promotions and increased prices will hit the middle-class dinner party crowd, the limited bans on under-21s buying alcohol could be used against students, and some pensioners will lose their cheap supermaket-brand value whisky.

However, while none of these groups are the ones causing the problems, they are likely to be upset at the government interfering in their lives.

The "ned" drinks of alcopops and fortified wines will not be touched by the minimum pricing.

Then there is the thorny issue of legal problems, particularly with competition laws and EU treaties.

If the Scottish Government was to end up in long, expensive, protracted legal disputes then voters may not be supportive.

It would be even worse if, like Aberdeen City Council, a few years ago, the Scottish Government was to lose and have to bear the costs of these legal battles.

However, this time the SNP is not trying to be populist – the accusation which has been levelled at this administration for almost all its successful measures so far such as abolishing bridge tolls. Instead, they are trying to tackle a social ill that is an embarrassment to Scotland, whether people like it or not.

New Scottish alcohol measures questioned

Why is the Scottish Government proposing these measures?


Because Scotland has some of the worst alcohol-related problems in Europe. This included 42,500 alcohol-related hospital discharges last year; 1,500 deaths per year; soaring rates of liver cirrhosis; the eighth highest consumption in the world and a £2.25 billion annual cost in extra services and lost productivity.

What is the timetable for these changes?

The Scottish Government hopes to have promotions banned by the summer and minimum pricing introduced by Christmas. Much of the rest will be dependent on passing the new Criminal Justice Bill, which could be through by the middle of 2010.

How do the proposals affect wholesalers?

If they supply retailers then wholesalers are exempt from these proposals. However, if they supply members of the public, even through a membership scheme, then measures will apply.

Is there anything to stop booze cruises south of the Border?

No. Studies in Finland show that once their government reintroduced higher taxes, consumption of domestically produced alcohol dropped but booze cruises to Estonia mushroomed. Some believe Carlisle will become Scotland's Calais, which has booze cruisers from England. However, the Scottish Government believes that people will not go in large numbers because of the cost of petrol.

How will this affect internet sales?

As long as the seller is not based in Scotland it will have no effect at all. Kenny MacAskill, the justice secretary, is meeting Jacqui Smith, the Home Secretary, next week, and he will be raising cross-Border sales and ways of restricting them.

Is Scotland leading the way on this issue?

The UK government is looking at introducing legislation to have similar measures, in particular minimum pricing and restrictions on promotions, across the UK. Sources within the Scottish Government have said they believe Scotland is being considered as a test for the rest of the UK.





Page 1 of 1

 
1

RufusT-Firefly,

02/03/2009 22:38:00
Jeremy Beadles, chief executive of the Wine and Spirit Trade Association, said: "Millions of Scottish families will wonder why, during the worst recession for a generation, their government wishes to impose a new tax on them by banning promotions and arbitrarily raising prices for everyone."
=======================================================

WATCH OUT, BEADLE'S ABOUT!
2

RufusT-Firefly,

02/03/2009 22:40:33
Kenny MacAskill...YOU'VE BEEN FRAMED!
3

RufusT-Firefly,

02/03/2009 23:21:09
To be fair to the SNP at least they are trying to do something about the alcohol problem in Scotland.

Whether it is workable or not remains to be seen
4

Peter Curran,

Kirkliston 03/03/2009 00:08:19
The unscrupulous end of the booze business has been protecting its interests fiercely since Hogarth's Gin Lane and American prohibition days, aided by political puppets who mouth freedom and individual liberties while turning a blind eye to the chaos in our cities after dark, the broken lives and the broken bones.

Alcohol fuels crime in Scotland. Over 42,000 people were admitted to Scottish hospitals in the past year with problems directly related to alcohol abuse, an increase of 20% in the last five years. Every age group and class of society is affected by this except for under-15s, but the problem is insidiously infiltrating this group as drinkers get younger and younger. The link between alcohol abuse and domestic and child abuse is undeniable. Scotland is being overwhelmed by a tsunamai of cheap booze and discounted alcohol promotions, with hard spirits becoming cheaper than bottled water in some instances.

The Scottish Government estimate of the cost of alcohol abuse to the Scottish economy is £2.25 billion pounds per annum, including a £400m cost to the NHS. Over 50% of the alcohol sold in Scotland is bought from retail premises - supermarkets and off-licences.

Here we have one Richard Dodd of the British Retail Consortium, speaking on television yesterday: "Irresponsible consumption of alcohol is not about price ..." Yes, it is, Richard, and the evidence is clear that it is, and that it impacts on the younger, more vulnerable age groups.

The opposition parties in Holyrood are a disgrace. Instead of standing behind the government on these brave initiatives, they are acting as front men and apologists for the exploiters of our young people and our communities.
5

Dark Lochnagar,

Symington 03/03/2009 00:15:07
Rufus, was that faint praise for the SNP. Take it easy. I think you may be starting over the last few weeks to agree with the majority of the rest of us. Welcome to the independence stance!
6

famous 15,

Edinburgh 03/03/2009 00:32:00
At least the SNP has the courage to act in the interests of the people of Scotland. Labour/Tory/Libdems please read the medical reports!
7

Daft Old Git,

03/03/2009 00:36:14
Booze is cheaper in most European countries and they don't have the same problems. Perhaps it's a 'cultural' habit and got nought to do with price. I'm going to invest in an offy in Berwick
8

,

03/03/2009 00:42:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
9

walter,

03/03/2009 00:58:41
The majority of people in Scotland do not harm their health with the abuse of alcohol.
The majority of people in Scotland do not commit criminal offences while under the infulence of alcohol.
A minority of people in Scotland do harm their health by the abuse of alcohol.
A minority of people in Scotland do commit criminal
offences while under the infulence of alcohol.
Rather than en-act policy that would be directed towards the minority who harm their health by the abuse of alcohol to help them or commit criminal acts while under the infulence of alcohol and punish them, This SNP government decides it will en-act policy to inflict mass punishment on every one.
10

Edward,

03/03/2009 01:25:35
I think the SNP Government are doing the right thing.I do disagree about the price having an effet as in europe booze s cheaper, BUT people are more socially aware and dont have the same problems. HOWEVER The SNP proposals are THE only game in town,so unless the opposition parties can come up with something just as tangiable and workable as well as effective, then they should get bbehind the SNP Government in their efforts. Either that or keep there inane sniping to themselves! Dont let us bury our heads in the sand, Scotland DOES have a problem, its costing £ 2.25 BILLION a year a well as the health and lives of many Scots.Something MUST be done and done NOW!
11

TheScotsman,

Scottish Borders 03/03/2009 02:14:07
The SNP will have to be very careful here. The majority of their votes are in the form of protest votes against the vile Scottish Labour Party.
If their suicidal Independence referendum doesn't kill them off, this vote loser may well do it instead.

BTW I am in favour of this policy, but feel sure I am in the minority.
12

Ubermensch,

03/03/2009 02:27:52
"the country the first in Europe to impose minimum pricing for alcohol"

2 points :

1. Scotland is not a country
2. Scotland are only imposing minimum pricing because they are not a country and dont have powers to tax it like other countries. I do believe certain provinces or states DO have minimum pricing in Europe.
13

Ubermensch,

03/03/2009 02:35:10
RESPONSE 18 -

"The majority of people in Scotland do not harm their health with the abuse of alcohol."

- NO, but a very large portion do.

"The majority of people in Scotland do not commit criminal offences while under the infulence of alcohol."

- No, But a VERY large portion do.

What you need to remember is that this LARGE PROPORTION DOES affect the majority. The Majority suffer. Cost of NHS, waiting times... trying to get seen to on a Friday night, The threat of violence on a night out, Drunken neds roaming the streets and parks.

When a "minority" as you put it, which is actually not true... a large proportion.... affect the Majority to the degrees they do... .WE HAVE TO ACT! We act on terrorists!!! Terrorists are not a problem WHATSOEVER compared to the Alcohol.

Open your eyes. Dont just accept the threat of violence and alcohol abuse as being ok. normal for Scotland. we live with it. No other country has this problem. DEAL with it.
14

,

03/03/2009 02:47:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
15

Astarte,

Giffnock 03/03/2009 03:46:55
The problem of rising alcohol consumption is not the result of two for one pricing or availability of booze for minors. Alcoholism in Scotland is the bi-product of sub standard housing, squalor, a failed education system that has our youth speaking a maximum two syllable language that only they can understand. Literacy denied is life condemned and our failure to address growing social problems is a pox on our future. Get with it and address the real problem for the road you are on is the wrong road. My advice to our misguided politicians of all parties.
16

Ubermensch,

03/03/2009 04:58:12
Look it up. Scotland is not a country.

To be a country, we need to pass certain criteria. We dont.

Outside Europe its very unlikely you can use the Scottish pound EVEN if they understand the situation. Its because they only recognise Bank of England British Pound.

So officially we arent a country (yet). and unofficially, we should really be able to speak a language (which we cannot), we should know our own history (which we dont - at least the kids dont) etc.

The reason we may feel like a country these days is because at least Alex Salmond is forcing the issue. When in the past would we have people representing us in EU meetings? When would we be meeting prime ministers and presidents before the British Prime minister got a chance? when would we be meeting with Hilary Clinton and discussing SCOTLAND's way forward in terms of climate change? Sounds like a country and feels like a country... Alex Salmond WANTS it to be a country recognised by all... not just the people living in it.... We are NOT a country yet.
17

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 03/03/2009 05:22:02
"The end of wine promotions and increased prices will hit the middle-class dinner party crowd,"

Since an average bottle of wine contains six units of Alcohol and the top rate being taken about is 50p a unit, that would mean a minimum price of £3.

If you brought wine for less £3 to most dinner parties you would not be getting another invitation.

"The "ned" drinks of alcopops and fortified wines will not be touched by the minimum pricing."

Using the same 50p a unit price Buckie goes up to £6 and a 2 litre bottle of cider goes to £7 .

"But the pricing proposal which may make the minimum price for a standard bottle of 40 per cent whisky £11.20"

If you have ever drank the cheap whisky that costs less than £11.20 then you will know that it leaves you with a vicious hangover.

18

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 03/03/2009 05:33:05
If you think about it this minimum pricing might actually help the whisky industry.

Whisky is generally more expensive to produce that Vodka, Gin, or Rum and usually sells at a premium to those spirits.

If the minimum pricing reduces the differential in prices then whisky sales might actually increase as people find that good quality whisky is roughly the same price as other spirits.
19

,

03/03/2009 05:35:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
20

Toddy,

Macmerry 03/03/2009 06:16:27
SNP lost the plot on this one. I can see what they wish to achieve however raising prices will not change the culture. With smoking forcing everyone who does to go outside or stay in their house is slowly ecouraging people to stop. With drink, raising prices will not work as it is embedded in our culture. You have to change the culture by making it socially unacceptable to be intoxicated into a stuppor. This is a long term project and needs to start at grass roots. Try using existing laws and creating drunk tanks and teaching of the harmful effects in schools as most teenagers are drinking regularly anyway. Well before they are 18 and are embedded with the need almost certanly before they reach 21. Hence trying to raise the age limit was another complete waste of time. Even starting now with a proper budget and teaching from a young age it will take a generation to make any serious change.
21

Ubermensch,

03/03/2009 06:37:35
I really really DOUBT that SNP believe this is the solution. This is one of Many steps that will be put in place. Culture needs to be changed but will take decades to do so. So lets take some steps in the meantime.
22

Colin Wilson,

03/03/2009 06:42:47
Re Peter Curran (*#5): "Scotland is being overwhelmed by a tsunamai of cheap booze and discounted alcohol promotions, "

This sort of emotive language gets us nowhere. Alcoholic drinks are already costly in Scotland. Friends of mine drive to Calais twice a year to buy wine, and the money they save pays for their fuel costs and the Channel crossing.

We have a problem with alcohol abuse and we need a solution for it, but the current proposal is not it.
23

Ubermensch,

03/03/2009 06:50:32
your friends are driving to get a certain drink...

If you are not fussy, you can go to tesco and get a Tesco Value Beer for 20p. Wine for less than 3 quid which is outrageous.

ONLY in southern Europe, Greece, Turkey, Italy, Spain and France, is alcohol cheaper. They have the climate and culture (which is big families living with each other) to sell it cheap. The rest of Europe is STILL more expensive than Alcohol will be here and they have much more similar cultures (apart from fighting every friday etc.... but then again they cannot afford those last few drinks before going off their nut...)
24

Grahamski,

Falkirk 03/03/2009 07:04:35
What,a SNP policy which superficially seems attractive and sensible turns out to be unworkable, counter-productive and illegal?

Really? Well, that's never happened before!

In the meantime I do hope that the SNP executive won't be supplying publicly-funded free drinks to their guests at their soirees, receptions and dinners.

That would be just too hypocritical, even for the nats....
25

walter,

03/03/2009 07:15:28
#25
NO, but a very large portion do.

This included 42,500 alcohol-related hospital discharges last year;

42,500 that is not even 1% of the population, and those committing alcohol related crimes will not be much different.
That is not a large portion, that is a small portion a very "VERY" small portion.
26

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 03/03/2009 07:20:32
Re #35 : climate doesn't anything to do with it. They don't make any alcoholic drink in Gibraltar, but you can still buy Scotch whisky or English gin for less than half what it costs here, and they still don't have the alcohol abuse that we have.

As for "the rest of Europe is still more expensive", well I haven't noticed that in eastern Europe or the Baltic countries. Hass Ubermensch ever been to Prague?
27

Ubermensch,

03/03/2009 07:30:23
Eastern Europe - Again, Similair cultures to Southern Europe... Family orientated, stay with each other, support system, dont get a chance to roam streets driniking.

Eastern Eureop - Mostly Brits falling around drunk there..... and their cheap ass Fake Absinthe doesnt help matters!
28

Ubermensch,

03/03/2009 07:36:25
38

climate not got anything to do with it? Having lived in warm countries for a large part of my life, I have seen how SCOTTISH and ENGLISH and IRISH families live. They have an outdoor life. They dont drink as much because they are active outside rather than in a pub where all they do is talk and drink.

Climate has a large part to do with it as it plays a part in the culture of people.

Sorry, can you expand on Gibraltar? I am not sure I understand your point.
29

Ubermensch,

03/03/2009 07:42:42
No. 37

Compare the figures to other countries....

Also, please remember that although it might be 1 out of 100 people. More than 1 person is affected.

1. The people who need to wait in hospitals
2. People who feel uncomfortable walking the streets at night
3. The fact that Scotland is considered sick man of Europe
4. The amount of these sufferers who are children.
5. The people who feel terrorised by children.
etc. etc.
30

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 03/03/2009 07:44:20
I seem to remember the same dire warnings being emphasised when the smoking ban was first mooted. Press ahead SNP - what you are doing is 100% correct.
31

john z,

edinburgh 03/03/2009 07:57:30
Number 24,

Scotland IS a country, you sad deluded unionist gonk.
32

john z,

edinburgh 03/03/2009 07:58:43
The SNP are doing the right thing with this. The A and E unit at ERI is full of p*shheads on Friday night.

Shame labour won't support it.
33

Ubermensch,

03/03/2009 07:59:41
Sorry? Unionist? It is for the exact reason that it is NOT a country that I want independence. If we were a country we would not need independence. I think if more people knew the truth that we are NOT a country, then people might vote FOR an independent Scotland.
34

Ubermensch,

03/03/2009 08:03:14
Yet another example of what they DONT teach kids at school. They didnt teach Scottish History and they didnt teach people about the differences between country, states and nations.

We are neither a country or a state. we are however a nation.
35

MoiraMac,

03/03/2009 08:04:43
Perhaps they could make life a bit more difficult for alcoholics and drug addicts. Not provide them with highly desirable rent free housing in the centre of town, give them £180 a week tax free in benefits, give them methodone on prescription, allow them to beg in the streets for even more cash.
If a drunk requires medical attention make them pay. If children are drunk fine the parents and make them pay for any medical attention they require.
Make people responsible for their own actions and not ask the rest of the country to pay for their anti-social behaviour.
36

Grahamski,

Falkirk 03/03/2009 08:05:22
44
The two biggest dangers to our kids - alcopops and fortified wine will not be affected by the SNP proposals.
It is typical of the SNP to go for cheap grandstanding rather than seriously look at our society's problems. We deserve better than the loudmouths of the SNP who favour gesture and grievance over sensible and workable policies.
37

,

03/03/2009 08:05:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
38

Daveunderwater,

03/03/2009 08:07:38
Norway has had Government control of alcohol sales for years, so Scotland isn't first in Europe.
39

,

03/03/2009 08:09:40
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
40

Daveunderwater,

03/03/2009 08:09:47
If their policies can really reduce the number of alcohol-related deaths and hospital admissions which mark Scotland out as having one of the worst alcohol problems in Europe, then they will have earned their place in history.

Why don't the opposition back the SNP and help stop thousands of alcohol related deaths?
41

,

03/03/2009 08:10:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
42

Pocket Dictionary,

03/03/2009 08:13:44
Far too many off licences. Why do we need 6 off licences in a 1/2 mile radius? Stop shops selling booze and have single alcohol only outlets and restrict the amount of outlets in each town/city.
43

scottishcoffindodgerno1,

Tram City 03/03/2009 08:17:58
Go for it Alex,the time is right.Libliars have no answer,so the denigrate your efforts to make themselves feel good.It is in their interests to keep the population drunk,that way nobody notices their failling,That women with her off licence on telly last night,saying she sells responably and it is nothing to do with her what happens to the drink after it leaves her shop,she is a disgrace
44

scottishcoffindodgerno1,

Tram City 03/03/2009 08:20:14
48#,sounds like your talking about the libliars in the parly
45

Daveunderwater,

03/03/2009 08:21:36
From The Sunday Times
March 14, 2004
Drunken street violence out of control, admits government
Robert Winnett and David Leppard
THE government has admitted that it has lost control of drink-fuelled crime and disorder in Britain??s town and city centres, according to leaked Home Office documents.

Research commissioned by David Blunkett, the home secretary, has uncovered a sharp rise in violent assaults linked to drink and a significant increase in people being attacked by drunken strangers.

Still much the same after 5 years nothing has changed..
46

,

03/03/2009 08:36:05
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
47

Number 6,

Germany 03/03/2009 08:37:46
Ther SNP are to be applauded for trying to tackle this social scourge, especially in a country like Scotland where some people seem to think getting drunk is some kind of rights of passage.

I would like to see more public service broadcasts, accident and emergency units on a Saturday night for example. This would show people just how horrific things can get in a "drink" freindly culture.

Also scenes of some of Scotland's finest young ladies spewing and urinating in the street should also be shown regularly.

Leave the whisky industry alone and tackle the problem
where it damages society the most, at the cheap binge end of the market.

The current generation of adult boozers are a lost cause, but everything possible must be done to stop their off-spring going down the same destructive route.

As much as they try, the SNP can not enforce sensible drinking but by heavens they can encourage it . Keep up the pressure with regular, hard hitting documentaries.

If it turns just a percentage of our youth off of binge drinking then it will have been all worth-while.

We must DO something, not just adopt the hand-wringing approach of the last 50 years, shrug our shoulders and say "their's nothing we can do". The Scottish people have heard that enough in the past.

Ignore the squeals and threats of the drinks industry, they have vested interests and would make booze even cheaper and more accesible given the chance.

Where will we be in 50 years if we adobt the "see no evil, hear no evil" approach of previous, succesive administrations? I shudder to think.
48

TWC,

03/03/2009 08:46:36
After watching the figures on the Nationwide news I'm glad the Nats are trying something, better than the DO NOTHING Scottish Labour party who were in power for more than 50 Years in Scotland.

Brown is spending Billions on ideas that don't work and nobody is willing to take him on.
Rufus you and your Labiour Trolls are going to be out of power for 30 years if you wait another 15 months you need to take action now.
49

Xena - Warrior Princess,

03/03/2009 08:48:53
I don't think this will stop teenagers having a drink at the weekend. It is a case of the majority paying for the minority. Education and as someone else said, drink tanks, when your teenager doesn't arrive home and you have to go and pick them up from one of these establishments the message may get through. We will now have more black market trading and more revenue lost.
50

TWC,

03/03/2009 08:50:08
70 Rab The Ranter

Rab we need to do something and soon.
51

Number 6,

Germany 03/03/2009 08:56:23
You can guarantee that Labour's little Scottish detatchment, and their wretched followers, will object to every single proposal that the SNP put forward on the issue.

Their flock will completley ignore the fact that Labour have done absolutley nothing(As Usual) to combat this terrible social scourge, and sneer at the SNP for daring to try.

That is probably the biggest hindrance to rehabilitating Scottish society. There are people who do not want the SNP to succeed with this drive. They would much rather we continue to languish at the bottom of all European social leagues,. As long as their precious "Union" stays intact, they dont care what state society is in. There can be no other explanation.
52

Number 6,

Germany 03/03/2009 09:01:24
#77 Why thank you, but now iv'e got a riddie LOL.
53

TWC,

03/03/2009 09:03:31
74 Rab The Ranter™,
Rab I kind of agree with number 6, all my life I've watched friends and acquaintences succumb to Drink.
It was not uncommon when I was young to have 15 year olds drinking 1/2 bottles of cheap wine, now it's 13/14 year olds. Scottish Labour have been in power all my working life and we've made no progress.

I say let them try it and I hope Labour will support or offer an alternative.
54

,

03/03/2009 09:12:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
55

Number 6,

Germany 03/03/2009 09:14:51
79 # OH If only they would work together on this
critical issue.

I believe that most Scots, like yourself, will see that this is a policy worth supporting regardless of your political leanings.
56

TWC,

03/03/2009 09:15:10
82 british and proud

Sounds to me as if he was provoked!!!
57

Number 6,

Germany 03/03/2009 09:16:15
If post 82 is not evidence enough of the dangers of binge drinking, then I dont know what is. HIC.
58

,

03/03/2009 09:26:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
59

Rameses,

NE England 03/03/2009 09:31:01
I am sure towns like Berwick will be happy to welcome booze cruises and coach trips.

Just another ploy by the SNP to get publicity, hope they are more successful with this than they are with the trams.




60

walter,

03/03/2009 09:37:50
#28
Scotland is not a country.
#41
Compare the figures to other countries

Make your mind up, you say Scotland is not a country in one post then ask to compare the figures to other countries in another.

The fact remains that any action the government takes should be directed at that 1% then the affect their actions have on others will not happen.
Then the 99% who do not abuse or commit crime from the effects of alcohol will not be punished by the actions of the SNP in their attempt to combat that 1%.
61

Runrigman,

Linlithgow 03/03/2009 09:42:42
Mr McCaskill - get a grip. Putting the price of alcohol up will not be a deterrent for the violence/unsocial behaviour experienced on our streets after closing time. I remember when I was a young lad and the pubs closed at 11.00pm and there was always a policeman hovering around outside the pub. Yes there was the odd skirmish but nothing like what we see on our streets today.

We need better regulation of licensing laws, abolish happy hours and personally I believe the minimum age for drinking in a pub should be raised to 21 (25 for clubs).

Todays 18-24 age group all live at home and have disposable income. The credit crunch hasn't affected them. Putting a £1 on a £3 bottle of wine will not deter them from drinking. It is part of Scottish Culture now for this age group to go out on a Fri/Sat night and get sloshed. We need better education, more police on the beat, shorter drinking hours and a higher minimum drinking age if we are to tackle this problem.

I attended as a young person the same school as Mr McCaskill and belive me he enjoyed a good drink just like any other young person.
62

Highland Mist,

03/03/2009 09:45:56
So, they are so thick that they think that an increase in price will cure a social evil? Do they know ANYTHING about addiction? Do they know ANYTHING about curing social problems?

This is simply a MIDDLE CLASS TAX BY THE BACK DOOR.

The REAL problem need cured by having the police do their job and lift the under agers and bringing back borstals and intorduce adult rehab clinics would have more of an impact than increasing the price of alcohol. If you increase the price of booze, they'll just move on to meths, moonshine, eccies and all sorts of illegal substances - addictive personalities will find another substance. THEN who are they going to blame?

63

John H C,

edinburgh 03/03/2009 09:47:48
The only people who will be effected by this policy are those on a low income. Regulating through cost favours those who are well off. Dear headless chickens there needs to be something done but to punish the public generally is crazy. There needs to be a target group then look at ways of singling them out. Is that so difficult?
64

Highland Mist,

03/03/2009 09:48:58
Of course there is also the added problem that alcoholics and boozers will spend even LESS on proper food to fuel their alcohol. Then they're completely malnourished and even more likely to end up in an NHS hospital or in prison. These politicians are so thick it's unbelievable.
65

Pomodora,

Gravesend 03/03/2009 09:49:50
#27 Astarte: While most of the responses are concerned with the issue of avoiding the tax or keeping the price of liquer down you are the only one who has not fallen for the diversion. Your analogy is intelligent and right on! Most of the respondents to these columns could not make a fair political and social analysis if it was beside them in bed. The ignorance of our electorate is the reason we have so many politicians with dumb ideas. The squalor of our cities and the lack of education is the root. Keep up the fight and maybe someone will get the message.
66

Beergut,

Embra 03/03/2009 09:56:04
The trouble with politicians is they feel they have to be seen to be doing something. The real solution to the alcohol problem is not the price - people will always find the money. The real solution is to restrict the outlets and availability. Nowadays you can stock up on every street corner whereas 20 years ago it was only pubs and a limited number of off-licences. And anyway if the youngsters can't afford booze they will just go back to the other, more deadly, alternatives like glue, hairspray, meths etc..
67

TWC,

03/03/2009 10:00:00
87 Vincent-W

It needs the WHOLE parliament to agree but while we have the Black/white position taking we won't get the right policies.
Most of the Nats Policies were at one time supported by Labour but now they just cannot support anything NAT.
To address the social problem long term we need full control of Finance, Scotland has different needs from South east England.
Even then it will take a generation to fix this Drink problem; meantime we need to use a blunter method, that is what Holyrood need to bring forward TOGETHER.
I've seen young people who were in their early teens down on the beach with their carry -oot, we start there by preventing more joining them. That's my only reason for supporting this.
68

subrosa,

03/03/2009 10:02:41
# 38 'Re #35 : climate doesn't anything to do with it. They don't make any alcoholic drink in Gibraltar, but you can still buy Scotch whisky or English gin for less than half what it costs here, and they still don't have the alcohol abuse that we have.'

You know why Gibralter doesn't have the problem? Because to be drunk and disorderly is looked upon as a crime and treated very firmly.

69

Faux Cul,

03/03/2009 10:05:31
76
Number 6,
Germany 03/03/2009 08:56:23

Nial, head, boing!

I sill think The KMcC s wrong but wt=rt to allowing Local Authorities applying local age controls on offies, where local conditions merit it, it make much more sense than a blanket ban. That smacks of a "nannie" state where they malcreanats set the agenda for normal people.
70

Faux Cul,

03/03/2009 10:08:53
89
Rameses,
NE England 03/03/2009 09:31:01

Idiot

The trams have nowt to do with the SNP

It was the Labour who forced that piece on nonsense through to feckup the SNP's budget.

Stay where you are Rameses and play with yourself. You are well named.
71

Highland Mist,

03/03/2009 10:09:24
#98, "You know why Gibralter doesn't have the problem? Because to be drunk and disorderly is looked upon as a crime and treated very firmly."

EXACTLY. Punish the crime and deal with the social problems. The cure will not come about by banning a symptom.
72

,

03/03/2009 10:11:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
73

Kingcounty,

Seattle WA 03/03/2009 10:14:52
#95 Good post. I too read #27 and a reaction similar to you! I have on my visits to Scotland, a beautiful country, stumbled upon disgusting conditions in the slums of Glasgow and Edinburgh and if I had to live there I would drink myself into oblivian. Unfortunately #27 is also right in the obvious lack of education of the youth. Maybe someone will ge it and do something about it!
74

,

03/03/2009 10:18:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
75

Liz,

Edinburgh 03/03/2009 10:18:37
This is stupid, how long before we get massive depot type stores just North of Carlisle and specially laid on buses to get there. I can see it now, the top sellers will be crates of White Lightning at 99p a bottle.

We need a cultural shift not a financial one. Shutting down some of the worst of the clubs/pubs which encourage binge drinking would be a start. Restrict the licences of shops so there is not an off licence on every corner could be next instant removal of the licence of anywhere caught selling under age would be good also.
76

,

03/03/2009 10:20:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
77

im brian and so is my wife,

edinburgh 03/03/2009 10:26:50
well at last someone has stood up and wants something done about the booze culture that blights scotland
we all used to laugh at the drunken antics of the drunk scot
rab c nessbit brilliant comedy,but again its booze fuelled
everywhere we look on tv bars and booze feature,booze is cheep so teens down it like some teen hero,whilst looking like a teen zero
they then have wild drink and drug parties annoying the neighbourhood,who drink sensibly and dont act like rambo after 1 can of rotten cider or buckfast
labour council wards are blighted by the bucky mobs
the daily rangers (record) is saying scots will go to england for cheep booze
until we find a working solution all polititions should at least try this,if it works then great,if not try again
bruce sat and watched a spider and the rest they say is history
so do want to see all our youth attend drying out clinics by 21
or do we want hard working sober ones
its up to all of us to put in positive geustures
78

Otis B. Wooddrift,

Glasgow 03/03/2009 10:53:46
I'm apolitical on this subject. I have performed voluntary work with performing and reforming alcoholics over many years. Alcoholism is a very democratic disease in that it will destroy the lives of sufferers and their families irrespective of sex, class, race, colour, religion, politics, education or intelligence.

I have been a prison visitor and could relate for you, dozens of cases where a young man is sitting, for example, in Barlinie, serving a sentence for a murder that he has no recollection of committing because he had drunk so much that he was in a ‘black out’ when his crime occurred (that is ‘blackout’ in the sense of a person physically capable of functioning but later having no recollection of events that have occurred, due to having amnesia caused while heavily intoxicated with alcohol).

As I said at the start, I’m apolitical on this subject. Any serious attempt at tackling the horrendous and often hidden problem we Scots have with the drink, gets my vote.


I have been a prison visitor and could relate dozens of cases where a young man is sitting in Barlinie, for example, serving a sentence for a murder that he has commited but has no recollection of due to having
79

Otis B. Wooddrift,

Glasgow 03/03/2009 10:55:12
I'm apolitical on this subject. I have performed voluntary work with performing and reforming alcoholics over many years. Alcoholism is a very democratic disease in that it will destroy the lives of sufferers and their families irrespective of sex, class, race, colour, religion, politics, education or intelligence.

I have been a prison visitor and could relate for you, dozens of cases where a young man is sitting, for example, in Barlinie, serving a sentence for a murder that he has no recollection of committing because he had drunk so much that he was in a ‘black out’ when his crime occurred (that is ‘blackout’ in the sense of a person physically capable of functioning but later having no recollection of events that have occurred, due to having amnesia caused while heavily intoxicated with alcohol).

As I said at the start, I’m apolitical on this subject. Any serious attempt at tackling the horrendous and often hidden problem we Scots have with the drink, gets my vote.
80

Number 6,

Germany 03/03/2009 10:59:18
87 "Your wrong, most Scots don't see this as a Policy worth supporting."

What? your seriously suggesting most Scots do not support a fight against the alcohol abuse in Scotland?

That's what I'm talking about. If you did not make it your life's work to criticise all my posts as a matter of course, you would not keep making such a twonk of yourself on these forums.
81

TWC,

03/03/2009 11:01:17
#117 yes I have also seen the effect of the DTs on what was a rational and intelligent person,it is so Sad.
I'm beginning to agree with Cameron society is broken and we need to find a way of stopping more young people joining the UNDERCLASS that we have but I think that involves the the big stick as well as the the velvet glove. Mainly it needs a serious investment.
82

,

03/03/2009 11:05:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
83

,

03/03/2009 11:10:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
84

birddog,

Kilsyth 03/03/2009 11:12:07
no 34 "We have a problem with alcohol abuse and we need a solution for it, but the current proposal is not it."
If you don't like the proposal, what would you do?
So far,the opposition parties have all crie NO! but have not offered any other suggestions. Education is not enough. That's been tried for years and has obviously failed.
I suggest that the desire to get drunk is a sign of a lack of self-respect. That is perhaps due to the knowledge that Scots are considered to be second-class people, an idea drummed into us for decades and centuries.
How do we change that?
Independence?
85

St.George,

03/03/2009 11:43:22
This is total insanity by the SNP,all these people have to do is cross into England! The only way this could possibly work is by the whole of GB making this law,and that aint gonna happen.
86

Miss H,

03/03/2009 11:47:34
126 Yes because it makes perfect sense to drive or take the train down to England to buy 3 bottles of wine for the price of two in Tesco. That tenner you save will more than compensate for the cost of the journey.
87

St.George,

03/03/2009 11:50:16
Yorkshire considering this by using by-laws. Really,unfortunatly they only have to cross into Northumberland!
88

St.George,

03/03/2009 11:52:59
128. Who said anything about a train! people would come to England and buy cases of wine,spirits,and beers. Twonker!
89

Miss H,

03/03/2009 11:54:19
121 Most of the complaints I have read are from people who are annoyed that it may affect them. Well yes it will. It will affect all of us. There would be no point to it of it didn’t.

The biggest myth here is that Scotland has a problem with a small number of binge drinkers, everyone else is a ‘sensible’ drinker and it is not right that they should be punished for the actions of a small minority.

That’s rubbish. Record levels of alcohol consumption cannot be accounted for by a small minority. The small minority are not the problem – they are the symptom of a society which is drinking too much as a whole.

We are all going to have to change our ways and change our attitudes to drink, not just the small minority we like to point the finger of blame at. It’s not a comfortable thought for many people.
90

Miss H,

03/03/2009 11:56:30
130 No they won't. Does the entire population of England shop in France because it is cheaper? No.
91

St.George,

03/03/2009 11:56:59
131. As a yorkshireman i'm pleased to here it,but, as previously stated that will not stop folks crossing into Northumberland.
92

St.George,

03/03/2009 11:59:14
133. Are you a complete dick! At least 50% OF English folk do!
93

,

03/03/2009 12:02:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
94

Miss H,

03/03/2009 12:06:03
135 says 50% of English people do their shopping in France?

OK I think we have established your level of credibility on this matter.
95

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 03/03/2009 12:06:06
In all honesty, this is unlikely to affect me much in the short term. I rarely buy the cheap "bargain basement" brands in any case.

However that said, there are plenty of responsible drinkers who prefer the bargain basement brands and as such it is absolutely, completely and utterly out of order to penalise them.

I sincerely hope that the lawyers can find a way round this madness.
96

St.George,

03/03/2009 12:11:02
All this over reactionary scottish executive is doing is putting a noose round scotlands neck!
97

St.George,

03/03/2009 12:12:08
137. We know your "credibility" it's harnessed to the SNP!
98

Thesquire,

St Georges head 03/03/2009 12:58:14
oh.. St George you are really spoiling us with your witty banter, great comeback, you are so quick

99

St.George,

03/03/2009 12:58:44
139. My point exactly.
100

St.George,

03/03/2009 13:01:13
142. Don't be facetious!
101

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/03/2009 13:05:47
I don't think there is any sensible person in Scotland who doesn't acknowledge the problem, but this is a blunt force instrument which will alienate voters and won't work.
102

St.George,

03/03/2009 13:09:36
145. Not only will it not work,it is punishing those who drink sensibly.
103

The Master,

03/03/2009 13:11:09
I really think the Nats have shot themselves in the foot with all this: as a drinker, I must say that I don't see why we can be trusted less than the English to be responsible with our alcohol intake.

Many will long for the return of a unified policy on alcohol throughout the UK, which kind of defeats the separatists' purpose, does it not!
104

IainGlasgow,

03/03/2009 13:12:22
This will be electoral suicicide for the SNP if it goes through and labour subsequently promise to reverse it in 2011 if they get elected.

Still Carlise supermarkets and off licences will see their business booming for a while.
105

Denise,

03/03/2009 13:12:59
I'm right behind the SNP on this. Alcohol is a dangerous drug, which blights communities and wrecks lives.
I dont see why we shouldn't have sensible pricing on drink. It's a luxury and should be treated as such. If it saves a handful of lives, stops even a handful of violent assaults, then its worth trying.
A very brave stance from the SNP, who get nothing but criticism for being populist!
106

bluehead,

edinburgh 03/03/2009 13:13:10
the people who suggest such draconian measures should sober up,and stop interfering in any thing and everything it gets its hands on,it seems that there is no escape from nosy-beaked politicians who can't resist ballsing up anything they set their minds to,
I voted for SNP and have regretted it ever since,every
time I Look at the TV or newspapers I see something else this lot want to muck up,
I cannot see for a moment how it can be legal to interfere in the prices that are charged for booze or anything else for that matter if the SNP continue to act in this gestapo like fashion they can forget their vote on independence,they will certainly lose!!!!!!
107

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/03/2009 13:15:13
146 I see little point in ''punishing'' drinkers who drink in-sensibly, it's not how you deal with a behavioural and cultural problem. I am in favour of Councils using laws they already have to crack down on anti-social behaviour, which includes restricting licesnces if necessary. That is a separate issue from the widespread abuse of alcohol, which is a health not a criminal justice issue. the two things seem to be being conflated here, which is not helpful.
108

Westfield Bairns,

Falkirk 03/03/2009 13:16:49
I support the SNP on this issue even though the price of my Ale will rise. Anybody who thinks doing nothing is an option lives in a dream world. Ask your local community what its like particularly at the weekend regarding booze and then study the policies the Political parties have, yep the SNP is the only game in town. Richard Baker was waffling about this subject on radio for ages, however what was the actual policy. NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING, typical Nulabour a joke
109

IainGlasgow,

03/03/2009 13:16:56
Next it will be a minimum price on irn bru, fish suppers and a deep fried mars bar tax
110

Steve,

Bo'ness 03/03/2009 13:27:06
I dont have any problem with this idea, precisely BECAUSE I drink in moderation. It wont cost me a whole lot more personally, and it may just be enough to dissuade those who regularly decide to get blind drunk on their £5 a week pocket money. The extra revenue should go towards A&E wards and policing, or schemes to keep young people off the streets. Scandinavian countries used to suffer the same as we do through drink. They now sell alcohol at a far higher price than we do, through government shops. And it works.
111

St.George,

03/03/2009 13:31:54
151. So what are the SNP out to prove!
112

Sedov,

03/03/2009 13:33:50
Just been listening to the cheap booze debate on the Jeremy Vine show.

One alcoholic said that although he drank 3 cheap litre bottles of cider a day, he would find money from anywhere (like a drug addict) to buy drink, no matter how much it cost.

Another guy from Fife suggested a credit card system for 18-25 year olds who could only but drink with their allocated card per month, say ,which would be limited to a certain amount. Once the allocation was used, that was it and his/her mates would be in the same position. With more thought this could be a short term solution.

However, the only way to curtail dangerous drinking and drug taking is to create a society where abuse is unnecessary such was the high quality of life and happiness is a right and not a luxury.

That, of course, is well beyond the reach of the SNP never mind Labour.

113

,

03/03/2009 13:36:36
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
114

AJM,

03/03/2009 13:37:51
#115 im brian and so is my wife

It is this sort of muddled thinking that is not helping the debate. In support of this intiative you said

"well at last someone has stood up and wants something done about the booze culture that blights scotland"
Yes but that is no reason to support them if they getting it wrong.
"we all used to laugh at the drunken antics of the drunk scot"
You are on your own with that one, I never did, but what has it got to do with a booze culture, mostly it seems to reflect on someone with a poor sense of humour.
"rab c nessbit brilliant comedy,but again its booze fuelled"
Again, where is the long list of other scottish tv comedies with a booze fuelled story. What about Shameless, that driving the English to booze and drugs?
"everywhere we look on tv bars and booze feature"
What on David Attenborough?
"booze is cheep so teens down it like some teen hero,whilst looking like a teen zero
they then have wild drink and drug parties annoying the neighbourhood,who drink sensibly and dont act like rambo after 1 can of rotten cider or buckfast"
Not much to say about this shameful rant apart from no way does this reflect on the majority of teens.
"labour council wards are blighted by the bucky mobs" Well what a cheap shot, of course there is no problem in the lily white world of SNP wards? All we have to is all vote SNP and the booze culture will disappear over night.
"the daily rangers (record) is saying scots will go to england for cheep booze" Got to be true then, its just a prediction, likely in areas that can get there cheaply.
"until we find a working solution all polititions should at least try this,if it works then great,if not try again" What, support something that you plaiinly think will not work, why?
"bruce sat and watched a spider and the rest they say is history" No comment
"so do want to see all our youth attend drying out clinics by 21 or do we want hard working sober ones"
I would think that it is older folk that are
115

St.George,

03/03/2009 13:39:17
156. My point exactly. The snp need to wake up and smell defeat.
116

AJM,

03/03/2009 13:51:27
#132 Miss H, It is not that I do not agree that there is not a problem, but I cannot agree that this blanket stealth tax is anything other than to be doomed to failure. It is does nothing to root out the causes of the high levels of drinking.

As I said yesterday, sweet alcoholic drinks should be targeted, they are the ones that are most attracive to younger people.
117

AJM,

03/03/2009 13:55:58
#154 Steve, no it does not look into the number of ferries that now ply their trade to the Baltic countries from Norway and Sweden. When I spoke to a Swede last year he said that they get their drink not from the state shops.

Their standard of living is far higher so the price anything will be higher.
118

Miss H,

03/03/2009 14:10:11
160 It is not a tax. The Scottish Government has no powers to levy taxation on alcohol.

It is an intervention in the market. The reason for this is because alcohol has been widely used as a loss leader – prices have been kept artificially low. As a consequence alcohol has become in relative terms much cheaper as well as more widely available. These are the consequences.
119

Ewan Randall,

03/03/2009 14:14:01
After you've had a few do you care how much it has gone up?
When people get used to price rises don't they go back to their old habits?
120

Miss H,

03/03/2009 14:14:17
150 So you are a free marketeer. Fine. No idea why you voted for the SNP though because we are not free marketeers.

121

Miss H,

03/03/2009 14:20:09
147 I think you will find that England follows suit with a lot of these measures.
122

,

03/03/2009 14:20:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
123

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/03/2009 14:31:36
I think before we get carried away with all this - do the sums. It isn't actually going to make that much difference (which prompts the question why bother) to many people. I don't think we will be seeing booze cruises, not out of necessity anyway, maybe just for fun. If your an average drinker then apart from losing out on the three for two in Haddows and the like it isn't going to make a vast amount of difference.
124

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 14:32:08
Drive ye tae drink, so it would. If you could still afford such a thing? I'd smoke a fag, but likely it will upset someone, so I best have a cup of tea - they haven't banned that yet.
125

Miss H,

03/03/2009 14:33:46
167 It does sound silly. Like I said earlier unless you believe in a completely unregulated free market the government has a responsibility to act when public health is at stake. The amount of alcohol bought in 2007 would wobe the equivalent of adult in Scotland drinking 12.2 litres per person. That is the equivalent of every man and every woman exceeding safe drinking limits every single week of the year.

It's not about people going to the pub and having one too many. Two thirds of alcohol is now bought in supermarkets - supermarkets which use booze as a loss leader so that we spend more money on other products. It is the worst kind of capitalism, ruthless, irresponsible and reckless. Those who defend it presumably share those valiues.
126

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 14:35:59
162 Colin Olcars, "Rosyth - Zeebrugge ferry begins in May. All aboard for the booze cruise."

I intend to be their best customer. A wee holiday, some good chocolate and lots of the amber nectar. No doubt they'll change the EU law to stop that happening. McKilljoy won't leave anything to chance.
127

EK,

Edinburgh 03/03/2009 14:37:24
I agree with the government in principle trying to tackle the problem. However as someone wrote above we already have laws to combat drunk behaviour and alcohol sales yet we all know it is not enforced becasue the aren't enough police/ finances/ lawyers/judges/court time/prisons whatever to deal with the huge voume of perpetrators. The government do well out of duty / tax etc from alcohol, yet it is nothing but a poison. I drink a little alcohol responsibly but wouldn't mind not drinking at all if it were to help the problem we have here in the UK. It's pathetic - many people's aim in the UK now is just to get drunk, get wasted, have a party, have sex. Few value education, knowledge, helping others, respecting society. It's also time IDEAS changed and sensible educated people started up a less-drinking campaign. The government has a tough job, but I think they are brave to tackle because majority people seem against it and it could be a vote loser. The majority of people are uneducated and stupid so they need the guidance of people in positions of authority.
128

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 14:37:56
133. I think you'll find that a large amount of English people do the booze cruises already. You are well out of touch with just about everything hen.
129

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 14:40:36
172. Back to blaming it on the 'government' are we? Odd that, when it meets approval it's the work of the SNP, but when it's a pile of nonsense no one wants it's the 'government' that did it. Naw son, it's the SNP that is right behind this despite what anyone else says or thinks.
130

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 14:44:05
153 IainGlasgow,03/03/2009 13:16:56
"Next it will be a minimum price on irn bru, fish suppers and a deep fried mars bar tax"

Don't think for a minute they won't do that. They'll argue that them products cause obesity, heart disease, diabetes, bad teeth...

It'll soon get to the point that we will all live on porridge alone. Alba 2050 = Albania 1950.
131

AJM,

03/03/2009 14:48:31
#170 Miss H, are you saying that the reason for too much alcohol being drink is because it is cheap, and we can lay the blame at the hands of the supermarkets displaying "It is the worst kind of capitalism, ruthless, irresponsible and reckless". Wow
There was me thinking that the reasons for too much alcohol being consumed were complex and this blunt instrument of a price hike would not work.
Nothing to do with any cultural reasons, then all the fault of unbridled capitalism.

So you are in favour now of price hikes on the fatty foods, high suger foods, especially sweets and cakes etc. to reduce the enormous bill to the NHS that is being brought about by Diabetes and Obesity. Go into any supermarket and you will find things like sausage rolls and fatty pies all on offers such as buy one get one free. Come on lets put the price up as it will cure Diabetes and Obesity.
132

Westfield Bairns,

Falkirk 03/03/2009 14:50:08
I think alot of people are missing the point here. Whether these policies work or not there has to be a change in culture and at least this sends out a message. Alcohol is a product which can and does cause untold misery if used irresponsibly. However some policies such as this will affect moderate drinkers like myself but will be better in the long run for us all. At least the SNP put up or shut up and will implement policies for the good of Scotland even if their not vote winners
133

TWC,

03/03/2009 14:51:17
167 DemocraticScot,
Unlike you I'm not an avowed supporter of the Nats but they are trying to take this problem on, so I commend them for that. My concern is that though I do not approve of everything in this proposal I see no actual offer from other parties to help the Nats fix this thing.
134

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 14:56:45
176. By the same reasoning all foods containing salt should be heavily taxed to prevent high blood pressure, all foods containing sugar should be heavily taxed to prevent diabetes. Lucozade and doughnuts will be banned. Annoy the 'Asians for Independence' further by putting up the price of a ruby to lower Scottish cholesterol levels.
135

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 14:58:14
TWC, who are you kidding. I've read your postings on here. You're an SNP supporter without question.
136

salmondella,

UK 03/03/2009 15:02:30
166 Helen - I think it is highly unlikely that England will follow simply because, like the price hikes on cigarettes, it won't work. It matters not to the buyer whether the increased cost is through tax or imposition by a nanny government, if you want something badly enough you will pay for it.
137

salmondella,

03/03/2009 15:06:48
#180 = Absolutely - and the NATS are welcome to him.
138

Miss H,

03/03/2009 15:08:00
176 I think the reasons why Scots have a more addictive relationship with alcohol than other nationalities are complex.

On the other hand the effects of allowing alcohol to become cheaper and more available are not complex. They are not complex at all.

You need to remember this has been a deliberate policy – for the past 25 years the focus of alcohol policy has been to liberalise, to educate, to promote a more continental style of drinking. It hasn’t worked - we just drink more. Why do we drink more? Because drink is cheaper and there is more of it.

As a consequence we have gone in the space of 25 years from having an alcohol-related liver disease level that was LOWER than average to having one twice as high as England and Wales. Just one statistic but a marker of what has been happening in the whole population.
139

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 15:17:25
184. Again you are blinded by statistics. Since most people will never become alcholics, your arguments prove nothing. Could you and the SNP just stop tarring us all with the same brush, it's very insulsting actually.
140

salmondella,

03/03/2009 15:20:00
#183 Miss H - apologies for calling you Helen at 181.

The availability and cheapness of drink is a simple argument to find the reason for Scots alchohol abuse although you admit yourself that the reasons are complex.

For example, many Scots travel to France in the summer to work in the vineyards. The vineyard owners welcome the Scots who they say are hard workers and although there is an abundance of cheap but quality wine all around them the owners say that they drink no more than other workers and in fact less than the French.
141

,

03/03/2009 15:23:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
142

Miss H,

03/03/2009 15:27:43
184 Statistics are facts. You cannot be blinded by facts. People can put different interpretations on them but there are a limited number of interpretations that can be put on the fact that people in Scotland consumed nearly 50 million litres of pure alcohol during 2007 - enough for every adult to exceed safe drinking guidelines every single week of the year. To argue that a small minority of alcoholics are responsible for this is not credible. Sorry if you find that insulting but facts are chiels that winna ding.
143

SandyBottoms,

Edinburgh 03/03/2009 15:32:28
#27 Astarte:

You are so right. What is needed is not more laws, but more education.
144

Miss H,

03/03/2009 15:32:41
185 I thought you were a socialist? You are arguing like a classic Thatcherite free marketeer. It's all about individual choice and individual responsibility.
145

salmondella,

03/03/2009 15:34:10
#186 me again.

I agree. A biker, who has never been in trouble in his life has just been jailed for 6 months for driving his son at 122mph. A stupid and reckless thing to do - but surely in proportion to the sentencing given for habitual criminals and the anti social behaviour that you mention this is way over the top.
146

Miss H,

03/03/2009 15:34:39
189 What nonsense. Who does not know that drinking to excess is bad for you? There have been numerous public education/information campaigns, which have had no effect whatsoever other than to allow politicians to pretend they are doing something to tackle the problem.
147

salmondella,

03/03/2009 15:39:42
#190- socialists are no softies - Those who do not pull their weight, but are able to, will be dealt with by their community. - So watch out Miss H!
148

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/03/2009 15:41:49
192 Err that would be his 14 year old son who had no protective clothing riding pillion holding on to the bike with his bare hands whilst his dad was doing over 120 mph on a motorway in pish1ing rain ? That Salmondella is what I call dangerous driving and the dad deserves what he got.

BTW your coming across as a bit right wing today are you feeling alright ?
149

Pavla,

03/03/2009 15:47:15
As a nationalist of many years I have great reservations about this policy and felt the presentation from Nicola Sturgeon and Kenny Mcaskill smacked of showmanship.This should have been part of a package including proposals on developing social,recreational and educational opportunities for the young who are the main target group .The headline grabbing "war on booze" and Kenny McAskill's constant rhetoric of "booze and blade" culture is damaging to tourism with visitors numbers already disappearing like snaw aff a dyke and promotes a real negative image.Great timing too as E.U officials are in Korea trying to get import duty reduced on whisky in a very protectionist atmosphere over there.
150

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 15:51:31
188. Actually statistics are not 'facts'. Facts are facts. Statistics are merely rough guesses which can be considerably wrong or heavily influenced. As regards statistics, why don't you publish the statistics abotu the people who do not abuse alcohol, will not become alcoholics, will not die of an alcohol induced illness. If you argued those statistics with the same level of ignorance you would likely accept that such conditions are negligble in comparison to the greater statistics and concede that the SNP are attacking the wrong people with their price hikes.
151

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 16:05:33
200. Clearly like Miss H, you have no concept of the Scientific Method. Statistics and Facts are completely different things.

Here's an example: Statistics in s study by Edinburgh University have shown a trend for instance that SNP supporters have lower IQ's, but a fact would be that neither you nor Miss H seem to have any Scientific education or knowledge.

I'm a post-man and I can tell you the difference between hypothesis/derived statistics and established facts, what does that say about you? LOL.
152

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 16:06:45
That was for 201 obviously.
153

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 16:10:13
As I said, you exaggerate the 'negative' statistics to suit your own argument, and paint them over the rest of us. In contrast the statistics (since that seems to be the bag you are into) showing that most Scots do not abuse alcohol defeats every single argument you can come up with.

If statistics meant anything and could be projected in such a way, then why can't I consider the SNP politician who was apprehended for drunk and disorderly and assume that because he is like that all of the SNP are like that? So maybe we should act on that statistic and arrest them all?
154

,

03/03/2009 16:13:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
155

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 16:16:45
205. Rubbish. Theories may be derived from statistics, but an established fact is a fact since it is not open to any other interpretation. Google Scientific Method or something, a secondary school could explain it to you.
156

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 16:21:51
A statistic would be a sample of data which suggested that the SNP would win Glenrothes.

A fact is Labour won Glenrothes.
157

St.George,

03/03/2009 16:30:49
166. I'll think you'll find they won't!
158

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 16:36:44
208. Definitely, there's no chance of England doing this. The SNP do not wag the British dog, and the Westminster Government will not have its budget decided by the SNP. This is a dud policy.
159

,

03/03/2009 16:37:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
160

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 16:42:24
210. Look if you have to google and cut and paste, then you don't know what you are talking about. Facts are not statistics. That's pretty fundamental. LOL.

Oh aye smirking Salmond, and his prediction based on a small sample. Who did he poll exactly? You and himself? No statistics are contrived and open to question (always), often results can be influenced by third party factors. A fact however is something that is proven beyond question. Damn you people are stupid.

Maybe there's something in that statistic about SNP voters having low IQ's, hmm so you'd insist that's a fact?. :-)
161

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/03/2009 16:46:34
196 ''booze and blade culture''. This is where I think the thinking has gone wrong. The two things are not necessarily inter-linked. If we look at the statistics (which are facts, people dying is not really open to interpretation) then there is an obvious health issue. Personally I also think that the increase in alcohol-related illness is due to the cultural change surrounding women's drinking, which these measures don't seem to acknowledge. So that is a cultural/health issue.

The anti-social issue I think is separate. Particularly the ''blade''issue. Let's be honest that's really a problem for Glasgow in particular isn't it, what happens here, the murder capital of Western Europe, is not going to be resolved by making booze a bit more expensive, the problems run far far deeper than that.

So although I acknowledge the SNP are right to identify a problem, I don't think they have identified the solution.
162

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/03/2009 16:50:44
199 Exactly, there are existing laws which can be used to crack down on specific problem areas and specific patterns of anti-social behaviour. New legislation/policy on anti-social behaviour is not necessary, the tools exist already, and the wider issue of alcohol abuse is a health matter and should be viewed accordingly.
163

,

03/03/2009 16:51:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
164

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 16:52:01
212. Edinburgh has a few dodgy schemes, and if your face isn't known in Leith or Gilmerton ah well... It's not just Glasgow. Then there's Dundee...
165

,

03/03/2009 16:53:10
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
166

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 16:53:45
214. I don't care what you are. However I know the difference between a statistic and a fact.
167

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 16:54:27
As I said so statistics hint that the SNP have low IQ's, do you then accept this to be a proven fact?
168

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/03/2009 16:55:39
215 Yes, but we are talking about specific areas aren't we. We all know where the gang culture flourishes and where the stabbings happen. Most stabbings fit a profile don't they ? I think it is very unlikely that putting the price of booze up is going to prevent them. Unfortunately.
169

DanishBird,

Fife 03/03/2009 17:01:48
#155 "Scandinavian countries used to suffer the same as we do through drink. They now sell alcohol at a far higher price than we do, through government shops. And it works."

You mean Sweden - and no it doesn't actually work. The Swedes go to Denmark to get hammered and to stock up on their booze. The Danish governement is happy as they get the extra revenue - perhaps that's why they decided to build a bridge to Sweden! Oh and booze in Denmark is cheaper on average than in Scotland as long as you stay out of the pub..just for the record.
170

Miss H,

03/03/2009 17:24:18
Alcohol abuse, like any other kind of drug abuse, is both a social and a health issue. The SNP has already put in an additional £120 million into the pot for alcohol treatment and to support health interventions, so it is not as though they are ignoring the health aspects at the expense of the social aspects. In fact it is central to policy. The SNP has a specific target to reduce health inequalities. That will not be met unless we can reduce alcohol abuse.

But health and justice polices cannot be completely separated. We know for example that a lot of people who end up in prison have alcohol problems, often related to serious mental health problems. So that’s a health problem and a criminal justice problem at the same time.

But the overall point that people are not acknowledging is that the problem of alcohol abuse is not one which exists simply at the margins. It’s not just about people who end up committing an offence due to drink, though reducing alcohol abuse would also reduce criminal offending. Nor is it just about underage drinkers. It is a societal problem. It affects everyone, not just a minority.
171

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 17:24:45
219. From what I gather there has been no change to the price of Buckfast, the chosen drink of the tooled up wee Ned. Can we still call the little dears neds, or didn't Hollyrood ban that in case their wee ned feelings were hurt. But no, I don't think we'll see any change at all. Knife culture is here to stay, until the law dishes out fitting punishments and locks them away.
172

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 17:27:16
221. Oh they put the money in the pot did they? That was jolly decent of them, did it come out of their combined pay cheques?

Or is it we are back to the SNP did this but the 'government' did that...
173

St.George,

03/03/2009 17:34:31
224. Don't need to "Google" it, England WILL NOT go down that route,simply because it will not work!
174

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 17:38:14
227. Did you read the comments by the angry English Daily Mail readers? No chance of this happening.
175

,

03/03/2009 17:38:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
176

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/03/2009 17:38:54
222 Contrary to popular opinion if you use a blade you are practically guaranteed to be delayed at her Majesty's pleasure. It doesn't make any difference, they just come out and stab someone else. I think it's a bit more complicated than just locking them up (or cracking down on booze).
177

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 17:41:12
227. The Daily Mail is hardly any paper to quote from. They set out to annoy/agitate the middle English Tory readers, and those readers respond as expected to stories like that. That story is a good example.
178

,

03/03/2009 17:41:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
179

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 17:44:02
231. And what is Her Majesty's pleasure these days when the SNP is keen to open up the jails and let thousands of criminals out (including 850 violent knife wielding thugs). What's your solution then if you think it's more complicated thatn sending them to jail?
180

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/03/2009 17:45:28
235 Unlike you I don't have the answer to everything in the known universe.
181

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 17:46:01
234. I don't know, we are all missing something in this. I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that alcoholics who are on Disability get free whisky money off the social. Now how will this affect them exactly?
182

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 17:48:44
237. That's too bad. You should read more.
183

St.George,

03/03/2009 17:50:55
227. I'll bet you all day long!
184

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/03/2009 17:52:13
238 Perhaps you should read more too. You haven't read about the reforms to welfare benefits ?
185

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 17:54:40
241. I'm not a politician, I don't read rubbish like that which has no effect on my life. Similarly since I am not an alcoholic, why should I pay more for my booze?
186

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 17:55:36
Sure I did, although I don't talk to bigots. I'm a catholic does that make me your enemy?
187

St.George,

03/03/2009 17:58:20
243. Why should anyone who drinks responsibly have to pay extra!
188

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 18:02:21
248. Are you here to confess to me? I never met an elderly priest who wasn't also fond of the swally. Father Jack is not that far off.
189

St.George,

03/03/2009 18:03:33
Could i just say that the SNP have done a wonderful job on their supporters,not only will they fight for a snp policy even tho' they know it's cr=p,they actually try to defend the undefendable!
190

St.George,

03/03/2009 18:05:29
248. With the greatest respect that is not an answer!
191

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 18:08:29
Altar ego, aye.
192

,

03/03/2009 18:10:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
193

,

03/03/2009 18:10:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
194

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 18:13:46
There is a difference between recorded numerical facts and statistics wich merely show a trend. You just don't get it do you? :-)
195

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 18:14:25
255. You are a very angry man.
196

St.George,

03/03/2009 18:15:22
254. No,im a guy who thinks you are a waste of space.
197

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 18:18:15
255. 'Independent minded', so let's get this straight you believe in Independence without question, but you are 'independent minded'. Like most SNP policies there is no 'independent thought' involved, you all accept the party line without question. Miss H is a perfect example of the SNP's brainwashed. I think your arguments over two similar terms which mean completely different things suggests that you have a contextual error.
198

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 18:19:30
261. I prefered Cleggy.
199

Miss H,

03/03/2009 18:19:47
234
1.Heroin is not legal. If it was legal I wouldn’t suggest selling it at pocket money prices any more than I think it is sensible to sell booze at pocket money prices.

2.Cigarettes are in fact very highly taxed. If alcohol was taxed at the same rate as fags you would probably pay a tenner for one can of lager.
200

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 18:19:48
260 even.
201

St.George,

03/03/2009 18:21:02
255. Did you ever ask yourself why! think about it,could it possibly be because most of the SNP policies came straight out of salmonds posterior.
202

St.George,

03/03/2009 18:23:06
260. Ofcourse you do!
203

Miss H,

03/03/2009 18:25:46
245 Yes I agree that heavy drinkers account for the a lot of consumption but that is not the end of the story. And part of the problem is that all the attention has been on underage and binge drinkers who cause problems. Less is paid to the people who stay at home quietly, open a bottle of wine and finish it almost every night - and who may genuinely have no idea that they are also binge drinkers because they do not fit the stereotype.
204

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 18:26:13
Ach well time for the one-eyed-goggle-box. I'll crack a beer and think of you all as I sip on it.
205

Miss H,

03/03/2009 18:27:00
266 No they come from SNP Conference.
206

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 18:27:53
269. So you must accept then that the statistics could be wrong and heavily biased towards a small number of heavy drinkers? Ach am awa'
207

St.George,

03/03/2009 18:27:57
268. Think i asked you this once before,who the hell is "kimba" who ever he/she is you seem engrossed with them.
208

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 18:29:06
271. The come from Salmond. The SNP branches have no power. It's illusion.
209

Ginger Nuts,

03/03/2009 18:30:58
Ach well might as well go the whole hog and get blootered. After reading this board I need it.
210

St.George,

03/03/2009 18:33:18
275. Have one or three for me! my night for babysitting the kids.
211

,

03/03/2009 18:42:16
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
212

St.George,

03/03/2009 19:00:01
278. Then how do you explain Brown being invited to address congress!
213

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/03/2009 19:50:52
282 Re: the SNP and this. As Joe E Brown once famously said ''Nobody's perfect''.
214

Orpheum,

Port Coquitlam BC 03/03/2009 20:26:36
#193 Miss H.. Your response on #189 has totally missed the point. Please read #27's post, the core of the topic. This post was providing an analogy of the current state of Scotland's declination and poor education is only one of the prongs referred to in this energetic post. "What nonsense" your words, are unfair to a reader who tends to offer support for a well thought out address and infers that you may just be one of the sub-educated referred to by #27 in the first place. Please try to show objectivity and read #27 again and call on someone if you need help in understanding the definition of the topic. You may also refer to #95 before retracting your impulsive response to #189.
215

,

03/03/2009 20:30:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
216

Pattester,

Galashiels 03/03/2009 20:53:14
Hi Everyone

Come into the real world Scotland were the Guinea Pigs for Thatcher’s POLE TAX and like that Kenny MacKaskill and Nicola Sturgeons are doing the same with the booze.
I don't drink very much but I do like the occasional glass of wine so WHY should I have to pay extra for some young stupid idiots mistakes after all the biggest amount of drunks on a Friday & Saturday night are either people who don't know any better or are people who won't buy it anyway they will just have to steal more from the supermarkets or they will have to go to the dole office and admit they are alcoholics and get there daily allowance of £15 for to go down the streets and buy the booze. Its not wine that they drink it is either cider or buckie of Alco pops all of which are not going to be increased in price so its just another TAX by the people who seem to forget that there is and election coming up soon so look out there is a good chance you will be out of a job after this, and if parents cannot look after the offspring’s and teach them right from wrong that target them not the everyday man or woman who just enjoy the occasional drink after a hard day at work.
217

yoric,

03/03/2009 20:54:14
Seems to me that prior to the ban their will be a massive booze buying spree across Scotland and afterwards with the ban, Englands border towns will be busy.

Followed by a massive rejection at the next election of the Government responsible.
218

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/03/2009 21:15:00
288 I'm sorry but what ''ban'' is that ? We are talking about minimum prices per unit. As far as I know an actual price hasn't been set, but from the figures I have heard bandied about, unless you are a regular consumer of ultra-cheap booze it shouldn't make that much of a difference to you. A normal bottle of 12% wine contains nine units. By the minimum pricing policy by my calculation that could cost £4.50 under the maximum 50p min price per unit. Most pints are about 3 units - that's £1.50 a pint, you'll be lucky if you get that anywhere other than the chain bars.

Let's get this into perspective folks.
219

Virgil,

West Vancouver 03/03/2009 21:34:15
It is with some interest that I have been following the responses to this story and my first impressions leaned towards the one at #27 and subsequently I have been expecting the discussions to follow this thread. Alas, with exceptions from #95,#106 and #284 most of the others are falling into the dispute over the solution to pricing. Recognise that Scotland, my beautiful homeland, its norms and its mores have fallen to third world standards.
220

St Monance,

Toronto 03/03/2009 23:43:08
Everything in Scotland is so expensive for visitors. Coming from Canada where our dollar is worth half what a pound is, I always calculate as if they were on a par when it comes to accommodation, car rentals, clothes, education, meals, food, etc.
Yet the bars and liquor outlets are one of the few places where the prices seem reasonable to the traveller. If you take that away, you will have nothing left. And so many North Americans want to visit your distilleries and check out the varied and regional Scotches. It is such a selling point and now you are dumping one of your biggest assets. And for what? To punish seniors on limited incomes? To ensure that the alcoholic's family will have even less to live on? To drive peoplefrom bars into solitary drinking at home?
CRAZY!!!
221

Sylvia Swann,

Seattle 04/03/2009 00:11:10
#291 danielrobor, I suspect that Virgil's comparison of Scotland to a Third World country was euphemistic.
However, it is not an outrageous claim that the norms and the mores have dropped well below the expectations of a civilized industrial society and that was the point I believe that Virgil intended. I make frequent business visits to Scotland and coming from a thriving center of technology, albeit the economic downturn, I am much aware of a sub-standard economy and the GDP does match the euphemism satyr.
222

Ginger Nuts,

04/03/2009 11:31:52
278 Observer, the ither day you claimed pints cost a pound, and now again you are claiming they will cost only 1.50 under the SNP's nonsense. I'm getting a strong feeling that you are no' in Scotland at a' hen. Add a pound to that and and you have the average starting price right now.
223

Ginger Nuts,

04/03/2009 11:38:08
Sylvia, I am more inclined to compare Scotland to an Eastern-bloc country during the worst of the Soviet regime. That wouldn't be far off because Alex Salmond and other of the banned 79 group planned to set Scotland up as a Soviet in the 1970's.

The SNP leadership is despotic, restrictive and will not listen to the people. What little pleasures the citizens have are been slowly chipped away. We are all part of some Orwellian nightmare, where a minority opinionated tail is wagging the Scottish terrier.
224

Miss H,

04/03/2009 11:51:21
266 Scotland is a 'drink problem' nation. Do yoy seriously imagine that the rest of the world hasn't already noticed?????
225

DD ex-SNP voter,

Edinburgh 04/03/2009 19:55:42
I have voted SNP for years and naively hoped to have a government that respected human rights and civil liberties and looked more to our scaninavian neighbours as role models but we have we got? An administration that seems to look more to bible-belt America or even Iran. God help us if these puritanical bigots get there way.
226

inExile,

Suffolk 09/03/2009 16:14:04
A few things strike me regarding this debate:
1. Quality of debate - similar to watching Scottish Politics on BBC Parliament channel - quite embarrassing

2. Scotland really does need to do something about the youth drink situation

3. Regarding item 2: aren't the existing laws sufficient?

4. Initial "Taxation" of 40p per unit will undoubtedly rise over time.

etc, etc, etc.....

 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
  

 
 

Today's Vote

Do you support Scotland’s new licensing laws, which come into effect now?
Yes, if they help curb our binge-drinking culture
No, people will still find the money to go boozing
No, these laws treat people like children


Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.