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Superdelegates rain on Clinton's parade



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Published Date: 21 April 2008
NANCY Larson's most difficult conversation was, by far, the one with Chelsea Clinton.
"It was just heartbreaking," said Ms Larson, a Democratic National Committee member from Minnesota and, more to the point, a superdelegate who had initially pledged herself to Senator Hillary Clinton. This was last Saturday, after the former first
daughter learned that Ms Larson would be shifting her allegiance to Senator Barack Obama.

"She is a delightful young woman who loves her mother very much," Ms Larson said. "She was really pushing me. She kept asking me why I was doing this. She just kept asking, 'Why? Why?'"

It is a question many in the Clinton camp are asking these days, sometimes in conversations far less civil than that one. After nearly two decades building relationships with a generation of Democrats, Mrs Clinton has recently suffered a steady erosion of support for her presidential campaign from the party stalwarts who once formed the basis of her perceived juggernaut of "inevitability".

She has been losing potential endorsers and superdelegate backing from activists such as Ms Larson as well as elected officials, party luminaries and former Clinton White House aides – the most recent being Robert Reich, the former labour secretary, who endorsed Mr Obama on Friday.

It is that constituency that provided Mrs Clinton with an early lead among superdelegates – one she retains, although by a narrowing margin.

But there is something more wrenching at work here – a reckoning of whether the Clintons, on balance, have been good or bad for the party. It has the feel of a very personal testing of loyalties to a former president who once always seemed to be adding to the "Friends of Bill" list, and to his wife who, if not so driven to win over everyone, used her fame to help elect other Democrats.

The decision by some Democrats to turn away has bred plaintiveness or more from the Clintons, according to some of their closest friends. They express resentment toward those they deem disloyal and ungrateful or, in the case of Governor Bill Richardson of New Mexico, a sense of outright betrayal.

But one person's "disloyalty" is another's well-deserved "comeuppance". And there is no shortage of Democrats quick to accuse the Clintons of defining loyalty as a one-way street.

This tension was neatly distilled in a heated conversation in January between a prominent Clinton supporter and Cameron Kerry, the younger brother of Senator John Kerry, who had just endorsed Mr Obama.

The Clinton supporter, a Democratic fundraiser with close ties to Mr Kerry, noted that Bill Clinton had campaigned for Mr Kerry in 2004, even though the former president had just undergone bypass surgery. To which Cameron Kerry replied that his brother had agreed to fly with Mr Clinton on Air Force One after the impeachment vote "when no-one wanted to be seen with him".

Tom Daschle, a former Democratic Senate leader, who is backing Mr Obama, said: "There is a lot of Clinton fatigue in the party and in the country today, and many people are reacting to that."

By the same token, Leon Panetta, a White House chief-of-staff under Bill Clinton, who is supporting the former first lady's campaign, said: "There is clearly a high frustration level among campaign types and from the Clintons themselves."

That frustration is partly reserved for former Clinton administration aides who are now with Mr Obama, such as Mr Reich.

"These are people that the Clintons gave an opportunity to serve," said Mr Panetta, speaking generally. "They helped give them the titles they now have, and made them a lot of money."

People in the Clinton camp say there are varying gradations of perceived disloyalty. The least offensive group are "likely" Clinton supporters who have not defected, in part out of recognition of past ties, but have not made commitments to her, either.

Then there are those that Mrs Clinton worked hard to win over but who have taken the step of endorsing Mr Obama. These would include senators such as Amy Klobuchar, of Minnesota, and Bob Casey, of Pennsylvania, or older colleagues, such as Jay Rockefeller, of West Virginia.

There is also a large class of Obama supporters in the Senate for whom the Clintons raised considerable amounts of money. This includes Claire McCaskill, of Missouri, who infuriated Mrs Clinton in a 2006 appearance on the television programme Meet the Press, when she said that, while Bill Clinton was a great leader, "I don't want my daughter near him".

Then there are those such as Mr Richardson. He moved atop the blacklist after he endorsed Mr Obama, adding that people around the Clintons practised "gutter" politics and that they felt entitled to the presidency.

But perhaps most painful are the lower-profile defections, the former supporters such as Ms Larson, people who revered the Clintons in the 1990s.

So what did she tell Chelsea Clinton? "I didn't want to get into my reasons," she said. "I just told her it was something I had to do."

PRIMARY NUMBERS

THE Pennsylvania Democratic primary tomorrow stands to be the most decisive since American voters began lining up behind the candidates three and a half months ago.

Hillary Clinton is battling to win with a sufficiently large margin to convince uncommitted superdelegates that her campaign has the momentum and gravitas to merit the nomination.

The state vote will divvy up 158 delegates but the party's rules for apportioning those delegates mean that even a big victory will probably do little to close Barack Obama's lead.

Mr Obama leads Ms Clinton in overall delegates, 1,645-1,507, with 2,025 needed to win the nomination. Neither can reach that number, meaning the unelected superdelegates will decide which candidate is the nominee.

Mr Obama framed Ms Clinton as an old-time game-player, willing to say whatever is needed to win votes. Ms Clinton was countering by telling audiences she wanted "everyone thinking," when they cast ballots – implying she was the candidate of substance while Mr Obama represented flash and dazzle.





The full article contains 1015 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 21 April 2008 2:46 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Barack Obama , US elections
 
1

Tom in Belmont,

Belmont 21/04/2008 00:45:13
This is not as simple as it seems, since many of the votes by which Obama now leads were cast many polls ago and in states McCain is likely to take in November, while Clinton has won in the big urban states Democrats usually win in general elections.
Of course, i can't stand either Clinton or Obama, but he hasn't practiced the nasty stuff by which the Clintons gained and held power for decades.
2

57Nomad,

california 21/04/2008 01:12:32
Many of the participants in this years Dem primary weren't born in 1972. That was the year an analogous crowd of buoyant leftists figured they had the country of their side and nominated George McGovern instead of mainstream Dem Hubert Humphrey. McGovern didn't even carry his home state and was defeated by Richard Nixon 49 states to 1. The Dems are going to nominate Obama. If they don't and the superdelegates intervene to give the nomination to Hillary, they can forget about the black vote. If Obama gets the nomination that doesn't mean you've heard the last of Hillary. She will seek to destroy Obama during the presidential campaign and start working toward 2012. David Brinkley, a tv newsman of some repute in the US said the following, "it's called Presidential Fever, some men grow with it, others merely swell."
3

Carolyn 1,

21/04/2008 01:18:30
I think the Scotsman invests more energy into the headlines than into news and journalism...One catchy headline after another but not much news in between.

CNN on the news tonight referred to the democrats as the "nightmare ticket" suggesting that democrats cannot win the general election. Considering that statement is from CNN, it seems even the U.S. media accepts McCain will win the election.

Will someone explain to me why Scotland ignores McCain but loves Obama?
4

Scullion,

Canada 21/04/2008 01:19:11
Mr. McCain is only going to be there to make it an official race. He won't beat Clinton and has absolutely no chance against Obama. He is too one dimensional; his one trick pony is on defence and the way the American economy is going, that just ain't enough. Besides, look at how he finished in Annapolis-he's the Custer of the 21st century (894 out of 899). He's too dim and too old.
Against a man like Obama (who will win the
Democratic ticket) who'll bring out the young and the minority vote, McCain is in for a tanning.
5

Carolyn 1,

21/04/2008 01:29:53
I forgot to mention Mr. Ted Chappaquiddick.
Here on Cape Cod, home to the Big Boozer Ted, I'd rather go hunting with Dick Cheney than driving with Ted Kennedy. Mr. Kennedy in a grande Hollywood style announcement supported Obama for super Tuesday.

We ignored the great orator and voted more than 60% Clinton, in some places it was 90% Clinton. Now what does he do? Will he support Obama or does he vote according to the vote of the people?

Nah, he won't represent us...he'll cast his super-vote for Obama because as an elitist Kennedy and Obama knows what's best for us typical white people who cling to our middle class values.
6

Harry "Dingy" Reid,

Las Vegas 21/04/2008 02:28:26
Scullion,Canada

McCain does not Goose-Step like your favourite candidates, I can see why you would not like him.
7

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 21/04/2008 05:44:06
#4 Scullion

I think you overestimate the intelligence of the American Public.

Being dumber than a sack of dirt has never been an impediment to holding public office. Look at the most recent examples, Reagan, Bush, Swartzaneger etc....

I bet that half the congress couldn't find Canada on a map, let alone Indonesia where I live. If you have ever watched C-Span you would know what I am talking about.

Americans want leaders that give them simplistic solutions to complex problems, they want cheap gas, low taxes and the right to walk around with their guns.
8

,

21/04/2008 09:30:45
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
9

zorba,

airdrie 21/04/2008 10:43:10
carolyn 1, are you upset because the kennedy's still have power. Ted has done some fine work as a senator, and it is human to err. Forget the past and focus on the present, Do you want a woman or a black man in the white house? essentially that will be the choice not their politics.
10

zorba,

airdrie 21/04/2008 10:43:36
carolyn 1, are you upset because the kennedy's still have power. Ted has done some fine work as a senator, and it is human to err. Forget the past and focus on the present, Do you want a woman or a black man in the white house? essentially that will be the choice not their politics.
11

Paris Loyal,

Paris 21/04/2008 11:04:03
Voice of Reason??

Voice of Hate. How dare you call anyone a fat ugly cow!
12

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/04/2008 13:12:11
#4 You optimism astounds me - to describe McCain as being a "one-trick pony on defence" is laughable to say the least. What does that make Obama's then?

McCain will win becasue the blue collar Reagan Democerats will vote for him instead of the snakeoil salesman.
13

Carolyn 1,

21/04/2008 13:19:20
10zorba,airdrie

Yes, I'm 'upset.' Kennedy has too much power and too little connection to reality. He talks a good talk but does not live it by example, which makes him a hypocrite of the worst kind. Massachusetts voted Clinton, but he'll use his super delegate vote for Obama. Kennedy is the top tier very elite of the elitists, he's a snob who thinks he's better than anyone else and only he is capable of deciding what is best for us, and now this echelon of elitists is crowning their new leader. Just what we don't need.
No I will not forget the past- it's another thing we don't need to do.
14

Carolyn 1,

21/04/2008 13:31:53

7 KampungHighlander, Jakarta
said: "Americans want leaders that give them simplistic solutions to complex problems, they want cheap gas, low taxes and the right to walk around with their guns."

Yes, we want a leader of our government who does not just mouth a list of answers that morph according to the polls and demographics of where it is spoken, we want a leader who has moral courage and actually has workable solutions.

Yes, we want cheap gas because that means there is no war over oil.

Yes we want low taxes- because that means the government is out of our lives and not the nanny state to our family, our mind and our purse.

Yes we want to walk around with guns because we are still a free society who if need be, has the constitutional right to defend ourselves.

What about you? Is the Nanny State giving you everything you need?
15

Dáithí,

San Jose 21/04/2008 14:25:27
#9 - Zorba

>"Ted has done some fine work as a senator...

The only noteworthy thing he has done in the last 20 years is to co-sponsor an immigration reform bill - with McCain (The Kennedy-McCain Immigration Bill).

I always get a laugh out of shallow, superficial foreigners that don't understand that McCain is one of, if not the main, driving force behind dealing with immigration intelligently - something that has cost him dearly with the 'hard line' Republicans.

But I guess that actually knowing something about what is really going on in the US is of no interest to the opinionated posters here that can only view the US from a anti-Jewish - Iraq perspective.

You people that think McCain isn't doing anything don't know what's going on, but that's OK - go ahead and underestimate him.

>"and it is human to err."

Allow a young woman to drown while you were drunk-driving so you can run away and sober up to protect your job.

"Sorry, my bad" - and that's OK with you guys as long as he votes you free stuff?

W@nkers.
16

Dáithí,

San Jose 21/04/2008 14:54:15
#4 - Scullion

>"Against a man like Obama (who will win the
Democratic ticket) who'll bring out the young..."

The YOUNG vote? The YOUNG vote means nothing, ask Dean, McGovern, Hart and a host of other 'cute losers' that the young vote has hung out to dry.

The only interest that the young, bloated self-absorbed Nintendo-playing, internet-whining youth of today have is attending rallies so that they can play on the emotional 'rush' of the exercise and get the liberal girls drunk and back in their dorms.

Which is where they will be come election day. Their vote will mean nothing until you can vote by computer over the internet.

Date a Democrat but marry a Republican.

>"and the minority vote..."

Which minority? The Hispanic vote? Millions of Hispanic (ie, Catholics) voting for a Black Muslim over McCain, who will sign the Kennedy-McCain Bill and give 12 million of them legal residency?

You guys continually whine about Americans not knowing nothing about your countries, yet try to pass yourselves off as experts on us, proving you know nothing.
17

Sandi,

San Diego 21/04/2008 15:09:23
And yet, over 100 superdelegates have told Howard Dean, who is trying to bully them into announcing which candidate they will support, that they will wait until the Convention. Most of them will vote for the person they believe can win in November. That person is not Barack Obama. He now has so many negatives that the Republicans will have a field day in the general election if he is the Democratic candidate. Hillary clinton has negatives, but we all know what they are, they're all old news, have been investigated thoroughly and ammounted to nothing. many voters who voted a few monthe ago for Obama now have "voter's remorse" and would nto vote for him today.

#1 Tom in Belmont,

Not only has Barack Obama run a very negatative, dirty campaign for the last year, he has used the principles of Saul Olinsky to do so. Obama embraced these principles as a community organiser and has carried them into every political campaign he has run. He is a standard-brand corrupt Chicago pol, he just plays dirtier than the others.
18

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 21/04/2008 16:19:49
all 3 remaining candidates have a lot of 'negatives' in that many people don't like them and they can be attacked on their negatives. I wouldn't be surprised that if there was a straight vote of 'yes' or 'no' on each of these 3 individual candidates by themselves and every American adult had to vote, then I wouldn't be surprised if all 3 would be flushed down the drain by a majority of 'no' votes.

For McCain he's got an anger-management problem that is very well-documented. Many of his Republican Senate colleagues do not favor him for president as a result of this. On one occasion he provoked a physical conflict with a senator, on another he did the same with a congressman. Once in front of some reporters he spoke very mean with lots of profanity to his own wife. The man has a temper, he was known for it even in high-school as a teen. He's thought of as an unstable man emotionally and the vietnam experience where he was held prisoner in north vietnam for 5 years causes questions as to how stable he is.

Hilary Clinton said some very obnoxious things about Americans in the early 1990's, similar to Obama's statements recently only worse. She also was associated with criminal activity in Arkansas while her husband was governor.

Obama has high negatives also in polling data in that while many like him, many dislike him. The pastor of his church Reverend Wright has caused quite a controversy. and so have his comments recently made at a private fund-raiser meeting where he showed contempt for ordinary Americans.

Obama is a sleazy politician like any other. He is on-board with the bad agenda of the people who rule our country yet he pretends not to be. I heard him attacking Clinton for supporting NAFTA during the 1990's. But Obama supports the trade treaties, so why is he attacking Clinton over it?

any of these 3 candidates can be easily vetoed by the mass media by merely focusing in & exploring these negatives on tv for the people to see. Th
19

mike - across the pond,

deciding factor in the fall 21/04/2008 16:32:18
IF Obama has any chance in the fall the deciding factor will not be strictly Obama vs McCain...

IMHO, It very well may be who McCain picks as a running mate...

If it were simply McCain vs Obama, McCain wins in a landslide. the hardline Obama-ites would vote for him even if he ate babies for breakfast on live TV... there is NOTHING that would sway them... so be it... one of the problems with the non rabid is, Obama looks VERY uncomfortable in his skin... what I mean by that is, when is off stage, and they start drilling him with questions... when he is "off his script" he has no answers... his eyes glaze, he LOOKS tired... and confused...

many complain about W smiling in the wrong places, like when someone asks what they percieve as a tough question. have you EVER watched people take tests? if they have THOUGHT about the question and KNOW the answer they smile... when a question catches them off guard, they dont KNOW the answer cold, their eyes glaze, they look tired... confused... either W is exceedingly well prepared for his impromptu questions, or Obama is exceedingly POORLY prepared. Whom do YOU want at the controls?

and this is not just a one off question that caught BO offguard it happens ALL the time...

in my mind Obama is struggling with a dilema, "do I say what I think, or do I say what will get me votes" the "reagan democrats" are seeing that, and are likewise uncomfortable with what they see... not to mention his pattern of long term associations with questionable characters.
20

mike - across the pond,

scullion.... the young 21/04/2008 18:16:48
I have 3 "young" voters in my immediate family...

all think for themselves.... all have been well trained to seek the problems with both the "uber-left"... AND the "uber-right"

all are "in the weeds", and will do their part to be of the "the polls dont reflect the vote"... that you will see once again come the fall...

all have the common sense to politely nod their heads in the face of the whack-a-doo "guns are dangerous" crowd.... and all can place 8 of 10 in the "inner ring"

all are CITIZENS... none are SUBJECTS...

all think canada has beautiful scenery... NONE want to live there...

all know the price of freedom... none are prone to shirk the responsability....

all understand the word Posterity...
21

Dáithí,

San Jose 21/04/2008 18:18:13
#18 - Wally

>"For McCain he's got an anger-management problem that is very well-documented."

Whenever we pursue your statements we find out that they are very different than you present them to be, Wally. For instance:

"...well-documented"

In media like the 'Washington Post'? Hardly unbiased.

>"Many of his Republican Senate colleagues do not favor him for president as a result of this."

This isn't what bothers them Wally - they are upset, like you, that McCain co-authored 'Kennedy-McCain', a bi-partisan effort to deal with immigrants which includes some amnesty provisions.

"Real Republicans", wallowing in their "KKK-Mississippi Burning-Waco was the biggest crime in history-Oklahoma City bombing-hate everyone that isn't like them" mentality, feel that he is a traitor.

That's their real gripe, not 'temper' or any other manufactured complaints.

Of course, the far right doesn't want to be honest and say that they disown him because he doesn't hate Jews, Mexicans, Blacks and immigrants because that would make them sound, well, er, racist. Which they are, but it would be impolitic to say.
22

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 21/04/2008 23:40:35
#14 Carolyn

I guess you had troubling finding Jakarta on the map.
No nanny state here sweetheart, in Indonesia the state supplies nothing it terms of social programs. It does however supply lots of petty bureaucrats with their hands out looking for bribes.

I think you missed my point, which was that America has a disfunctional political system that produces telegenic morons for high office.

Your politics is the politics of the sound bite and the slur rather than any well thought out arguments.

Americans are not interested in real solutions to their problems. They are interested little band-aids to make themselves feel better.

Problems with Crime - More Executions
Problems with other Countries - Drop More Bombs
Problems with Real Estate - Lower Interest Rates

This attitude has produced your 3 candidates.
McCain - Not very smart
Obama - Not very specific
Clinton - Not very honest

23

Dáithí,

San Jose 21/04/2008 23:54:16
#22 - K Highlander

>"I guess you had troubling finding Jakarta on the map."

Great, another w@nker that is all torked off because his home isn't on the top ten list of places that anyone gives a s#it about. Get over it and take your inferiority complexes.

>"...America has a disfunctional political system..."

Hardly. We have three people that have been whittled down from literally hundreds ranging from ultra-liberal to ultra-conservative. The primary system generally removes most of the 'ultra' candidates, leaving a relatively centrist winnable candidate that will, hopefully, best represent his/her ideology - balanced equally against the other two equal pillars of our representative republic - the Legislative and Judicial Branch of our government.

It's a great system, perhaps you can show us one better.

>Your system - "It does however supply lots of petty bureaucrats with their hands out looking for bribes."

And you guys put us down? What a bunch of phonies.

>"McCain - Not very smart"

Based on WHAT?
24

Helene,

Ontario, Canada 22/04/2008 00:02:44
As all three names in the running for pres are a bad lot, I suggest the Americans just start all over again and find some more candidates! So, all you bloggers, who are US citizens (and born in the USA), stand up try to get the nomination.So unless Kampung Highlander, Scullion and I happen to be US citizens, we`ll keep blogging while the rest of you get out and hustle the vote.
25

KampungHighlander,

22/04/2008 00:14:33
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Army and Marine Corps let 861 convicted felons join their ranks in 2007, an 88 percent jump over the previous year that helped meet recruiting goals in wartime, according to data released on Monday.

Nearly 250 recruits were granted waivers for their burglary convictions -- 142 from the Marine Corps and 106 from the Army. Another 87 waivers were granted for recruits convicted of aggravated assault.

Both the Army and Marine Corps also granted waivers to recruits convicted of making terrorist threats, including bomb threats. The Marine Corps granted five such waivers in 2007 while the Army granted two.

The Army gave waivers to eight people convicted of arson, 56 convicted of grand larceny and five convicted of sex crimes.

The Marines gave waivers to 11 people convicted of carrying a weapon on school grounds.

I guess you have run out of Young Republicans?

Of course not, republicans only vote for war, these send Democrats kids to fight it.

26

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 22/04/2008 00:22:02
#23 Daitha

"It's a great system, perhaps you can show us one better."

I actually prefer the Parliamentry system. I think that having your political leaders get up in front of the opposition and justify their policy decisions in open debate produces better policies.
27

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 22/04/2008 00:30:53
#23 Daitha

">Your system - "It does however supply lots of petty bureaucrats with their hands out looking for bribes."

And you guys put us down? What a bunch of phonies."

I don't see how my honesty about Indonesia's failings makes me a phony.

Phonies are people that refuse to admit the truth, much like you, wrapped in a flag with your head firmly jammed up your rectal cavity.
28

Dáithí,

San Jose 22/04/2008 01:46:15
#26 - KampungHighlander

>"I don't see how my honesty about Indonesia's failings makes me a phony."

Well, first I didn't put you down for your proclaimed honesty about your system, I pointed out that your criticism of ours was disingenuous compared with your own stated flaws - so being a typical phony you mis-stated the premise in the first place.

Second, since both the British and now the Irish 'Parliaments' have given APPOINTED Prime Ministers with no public VOTE, much less ANY DEBATE, your mindless tirade shows that you are either uninformed, ignorant, or much more deluded than any American ever was.

Third, since you yourself condemn your own government as "lots of petty bureaucrats with their hands out looking for bribes", you are pretty much left without a leg to stand on when it comes to criticizing anyone else:

In short, the perfect phony.

In a response proportional to your bigotry, you then claim that I 'wrap my head in a flag, etc ...' merely for pointing out your failings - something that, judging from your posts, you should be pretty used to.

Grow up.
29

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 22/04/2008 02:09:03
#28 Daitha

"Great, another w@nker that is all torked off because his home isn't on the top ten list of places that anyone gives a s#it about. Get over it and take your inferiority complexes."

"Third, since you yourself condemn your own government as "lots of petty bureaucrats with their hands out looking for bribes", you are pretty much left without a leg to stand on when it comes to criticizing anyone else."

You are right, whoever is in charge and whatever policies they adopt in Indonesia will have little to no effect on the rest of the world.

Your country however is a super power, or at least likes to think of itself as one, and whatever retard you choose to elect will have ramifications for the rest of the world.

So though we dont get any say in the election, we are perfectly justified in critising your choices.

As far as being disingenous goes, I am not Indonesian and don't get to vote in the elections, I just happen to live here. That still does not stop me critising.

I have happily moved beyond the tired nationalism you yanks are so fond of.

I realize the purpose though, if you didn't fill your childrens heads with lies about the superiority of the american system you would not me able to marshall them off to war to kill your enemies kids.

The problem is that they are not your enemies, they are simply the enemies of the special interest groups that control your political system.
30

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 22/04/2008 02:32:26
Datey, you are poorly informed on McCain. I've read quotes from Republican senators who say that McCain is a very nasty individual behind closed doors and that very few in the US Senate support him as a result. If people disagree with him, he immediately cusses very seriously at them. He's an unstable individual, unfit for higher office , that's what his own colleagues in his own party say. just today I read a quote from Senator Smith of New Hampshire (a conservative republican) who said this. His nickname was McNasty among his high-school chums. and I read what he said to his wife in front of reporters.

KampungHighlander in Indonesia - my only comment is that you do not understand us Americans. But if the Americans you speak to are like Datey, then my strong sympathies are extended to you as he is going to treat you badly.
31

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 22/04/2008 02:49:15
#30 Wally

"I have happily moved beyond the tired nationalism you yanks are so fond of." should have read: tired nationalism you are so fond of. I dont think all Americans are as Myopic or full of themselves as Daitha

I know lots of Americans in Indonesia and I can honestly say that you will get different opinions on every subject from every one of them.

A lot of Americans in the States don't realize how closely watched their political process by people from outside the US.

We all realize that we have no say on who the eventual winner is but since American Foreign and Domestic policy has huge effects outside your borders we do have opinions.

I personally hope its Obama and if not him then McCain.
I really have grown to dislike the cynical brand of politics practiced by the Clintons.

32

Carolyn 1,

22/04/2008 02:51:40
22 KampungHighlander, Jakarta

Nope, I don't need a map to find Indonesia, Indonesia is that Muslim country that hates the US but welcomed all the aid we could give you after the tsunami. I think we were there to help first? No need to thank us, we did it with a big heart because that is what America is.

As for band-aid solutions, the constitution and bill of rights will always be our lamp-post. America is a very diverse and large country, solutions are not easy because of the many differences all under the one tent that makes up America. It is not an easy task to manage something this vast and variable.

As for your comments about American politics being dysfunctional you speak again from indoctrinated ignorance; this election process started about two years ago, slowly building to this narrowing of choices; campaigning in a country this large is not easy.

Indonesia needs to reduce human rights abuses, be watchful of the sharia, and control the corruption and pockets of radicalism. With time as America and Indonesia work together to open more trade between us and solve our environmental differences you will meet more Americans and come to understand without your bias what a great and diverse country America is.
Until then, think before you write your pithy retort, Indonesia has a high literacy rate but you sound ignorant.

McCain by the way, will be the next president; he has extraordinary steel in his spine and more moral courage with the conviction to do the right thing, I don't think there is any other leader of a free country of whom I can say the same. He's labeled the straight talker for a reason.
33

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 22/04/2008 02:53:05
KampungHighlander of Indonesia, I am glad to see you telling off Datey who richly deserves it. He is very arrogant and insulting to people. And I do not think that he is really American. Perhaps like you he moved here from somewhere else. Perhaps a legal citizen, but not an American.

It is flattering that people around the world pay attention to our election. but at the same time it is all a very sad situation. Because our government has behaved badly on the world scene, people would like us to stop them, yet we are not able to stop them.

our country was once the greatest country that there ever was. As a french intellectual said our country was great because our people were good. There is no system and no program that the people of the earth can come up with that will make the people good in this fashion to form such a great nation that occurred. It is only the will of the creator that can do that. and the creator causes some historical events to occur for the sake of the agenda that the creator has. this is a different agenda than the agenda that the people create.

Judgement is coming.
34

,

22/04/2008 03:00:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
35

Carolyn 1,

22/04/2008 03:05:14
25 KampungHighlander
As for the statistics of the 'felons' wanting to join the military...
a lot of Kids do some really stupid things as teenagers which they really regret, but this stupid thing follows them the rest of their lives. They serve their time, pay for what they did, and grow up in the process. - why shouldn't they have a second chance at life? Why can't they have the opportunity to turn their life around, join the military and do something for the better good?

36

Carolyn 1,

22/04/2008 03:15:08
Wally, everything you say is based on your personal version of the wacky evangelical Biblical second coming, add in your conspiracy lunacy,- you're off your rocker, as usual.

Everyone knows Evangelicals hate McCain.

The United States is founded on the principle of a separation of church and state. Evangelicals do not control the country, and they never never never will!
37

SouthernGent,

22/04/2008 03:24:44
As long as all eligible individuals are allowed to vote the system will be flawed. Look around you at the assortment of people. We all know many that are mentally in the 1st grade, but they vote too. There needs to be some sort of voters IQ test to weed out those that have no business voting in the first place. And then you wonder why we get what we get.
38

Carolyn 1,

22/04/2008 03:34:58
#37 Southern Gent
Unlike the Immigrants who have to pass a difficult test of citizenship to become a legal citizen and then earn the right to vote.
The democrats would argue it's undemocratic to require everyone to pass a citizenship test!
39

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 22/04/2008 03:36:12
I guess Carolyn & Datey are engaged in a comedy contest. I can't keep up with them and I won't try, but I think Carolyn is winning because what she says is more funny. She's using her 'ridiculous' tool and Datey just can't match her. Ridiculousness combined with a bombastic tone is very hard to beat when Carolyn does it.

here's that Washington Post article about McNasty's temper that Datey loves.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/19/AR2008041902224.html?hpid=topnews

The Washington Post is one of America's most important newspapers and Datey ridicules it. a lot of credibility for you Datey!!

here's a DailyKos blog pulling together much info on McNasty's temper.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/4/8/17456/91972/887/492360

Carolyn & Datey want that man to be president and represent us in foreign forums after he said THAT to his wife in front of reporters. Here are some videos for those who prefer to see for themselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCAqm286eAM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSlAJ5hkAC4

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1073039/dont_ask_mccain/







40

SouthernGent,

22/04/2008 03:45:36
#38

"The democrats would argue it's undemocratic to require everyone to pass a citizenship test!"

The dems know if the sheep had to think for themselves, then there would be no democratic party.
41

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 22/04/2008 03:48:20
Carolyn's joke in 35 is masterful. The Comedy Channel of cable tv has nothing on her. She said that criminals have been increasingly attracted to joining the US military so that they can travel the world and do good. They want to meet exciting and interesting people around the world and then kill them for Uncle Sam. We should be proud of those criminals joining up to do good. The salt of the earth they are. What would a criminal do without a good chance to be rehabilitated by travelling the world and killing strangers?
42

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 22/04/2008 04:06:21
#32 Carolyn

"the constitution and bill of rights will always be our lamp-post."

So did you support the Patriot Act?

As for the rest of that post, please read #29 where I explain that I am not Indonesian.

#33 Wally

You seem like a nice guy, but I don't agree with your view that America was the product of Divine Inspiration. The founding documents of your country were authored by Men who were inspired by the Declaration of Arbroath, Magna Carta and lessons from the earlier democracies of Rome and Athens, not by the finger of God.

#34 Daitha

"Oh, wahhh, another mindless, patronizing stand-FOR-nothing-but-AGAINST-everything w@nker anarchist that is a slave to his ego and needs to place him/herself above others because by standing for something he might have to defend it."

I stand for my family and would happily defend it with my life. But as for being deluded enough to think that politicians act in my interest, no I'll leave that all to you.

"And rightfully so. Isn't this the real reason for your exasperated frustration and need to put every American candidate down - because of your own impotence?"

I didn't put them down. I mearly pointed very obvious weakness's that they have. I am not naive enough to think any political leader is perfect. They are human, they all have flaws. Most politics is holding your nose while you vote. Unless of course, you are a "True Believer" are you a True Believer Daitha?





43

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 22/04/2008 04:10:18
boy Carolyn, you said a mouthful in 36. You have a nasty side and a funny side - just like McCain. McCain is a fellow that really can do comedy when he wants. When he first ran for office about 25 years ago I remember being in his presence and hearing him tell jokes.

You show your true self when you mock & ridicule evangelicals and bible-believers. and yet you support the republican faction that openly has courted these people.

John McCain received the endorsement of a prominent christian pastor of a very large church in Ohio named Rod Parsley. When McCain visited his church with maybe 10,000 people present and broadcast on tv Parsley said that muslims were the anti-christ and that America should war on them.

John McCain also received the endorsement of a prominent christian pastor from Texas named John Hagee. Hagee has said that jesus was not the messiah, he adapted the jewish view. Hagee has called for pre-emptive war on Iran and hinted that it should be a nuclear annihilation of them.

These are the types of christians that McCain attracts. People don't realize, but it is true there are some christian leaders in America and jewish leaders in Israel too who advocate a religious war of genocide against muslims & arabs. Just about 2 weeks ago there was an editorial in a prominent Israeli paper by a big rabbi calling for the Israelis to kill all the palestinians and saying that it is ordained by god to do so. I'm sure that rabbi would endorse McCain too.

It is true that I do believe the bible. But I do not advocate the things that these McCain supporters do.
44

Dáithí,

San Jose 22/04/2008 04:14:39
#39 - whomever

>"I guess Carolyn & Datey are engaged in a comedy contest."

A bit rich coming from a clown like you that spends so much time 'entertaining himself', if you get my drift.

>"Carolyn's joke in 35 is masterful."

Master...WHAT Wally? Hahaha!

So as your source you use an opinion BLOG that quotes a BOOK written by an OPPORTUNIST written to make MONEY?

Here's a blog that tells the whole truth, Wally:

http://www.wallyisawanker.gay

If it's in a blog, it must be the truth!
45

Dáithí,

San Jose 22/04/2008 04:32:32
#43 - Wally

Wally, as tedious and bigoted as your posts are, a review of them usually exposes the real, bigoted point that propels you to continually boring us. Once again, that has been proven true:

>"Hagee has said that jesus was not the messiah, he adapted the jewish view."

Every time that you try to convince us that that you are actually addressing some salient point, a review of the gruesome details of your posts always expose the base bigotry that is your earmark.

In this case, you mis-represent a Washington Post article and post 'YouTube' videos out of context and launch personal attacks against Carolyn and me - all as part of an attempt to discredit McCain:

Why?

Because McCain received the endorsement of a 'Jew'?

You never change, do you Wally? Your sick bigotry is vomit-inducing.
46

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 22/04/2008 04:52:12
#44 Daithi

"If it's in a blog, it must be the truth"

No but if its on Youtube it certainly happened.
47

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 22/04/2008 04:58:27
Kampung Highlander in Indonesia,

you are very sharp to come back at Carolyn and ask her why McCain supported Patriot Act if constitution is a guiding lamp post for us. Our vaunted constitution is unfortunately just a piece of paper as our chimp in the white house has said in his words a '*** **** piece of paper'. The Patriot Act(s) and similar legislation passed in the last few years do in fact shred that piece of paper for all practical use.

But regarding our disagreement on what you called 'divine inspiration', that is the subject I'd like to pursue. Different nations have different characteristics or properties. For the American nation relative to the others we are far far more likely as individuals to be smitten by the god concept and the bible. It is something that we will not give up. The bible says that the properties of various nations are given to them by god. and it says that god causes nations to be formed, to rise up and to fall down, not for the purposes of man, but for the purposes of god. So I believe that all nations are a product of 'divine inspiration' in your words. And I do not believe that the people of any nation should really get the credit for whatever achievements their nations make.

America is a spectacular nation. and I think that mostly it is only the Americans who appreciate this as we do. We have had the opportunity in our history to believe in our nation, our leaders, our ideas and our institutions very strongly. and in modern times it has become evident to us that we are believing in things that are failing. Events and circumstances have been arranged so as to show us that we should not believe in the things of man.

Mankind on this planet is on a collision course. There is wrath coming from our creator. And after this wrath there is judgement coming. And America is but a tool to help bring these things about. Today the whole world watches our country. One day our country will be destroyed and in the pas
48

Dáithí,

22/04/2008 05:04:47
#42 -

>"I didn't put them down."

>"McCain - Not very smart
Obama - Not very specific
Clinton - Not very honest"

Uh, OK KH, let me apply these to you:

You aren't very smart, you don't understand details and you lie a lot.

Of course, don't think that this is a 'put down'.

If it wasn't for hypocrisy, you anarchists wouldn't have a personality at all.
49

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 22/04/2008 05:29:06
#48 Daithi

"If it wasn't for hypocrisy, you anarchists wouldn't have a personality at all."

And if it wasn't for childish insults you would have nothing to say.

Example:

"Great, another w@nker that is all torked off because his home isn't on the top ten list of places that anyone gives a s#it about."

"Phonies are people that refuse to admit the truth, much like you, wrapped in a flag with your head firmly jammed up your rectal cavity"

"They make drugs to treat your condition, try some.
First, you'd have to pull your own head out of it's dark, moist hole where you seem to feel the most comfortable."

"A bit rich coming from a clown like you that spends so much time 'entertaining himself', if you get my drift."

"Here's a blog that tells the whole truth, Wally:
http://www.wallyisawanker.gay"

"You never change, do you Wally? Your sick bigotry is vomit-inducing"

Daithi I think you might want to go to a the Doctor you are evidently showing early signs of McCain Syndrome.





50

Dáithí,

San Jose 22/04/2008 05:38:01
#42 - KH

>"I stand for my family and would happily defend it with my life."

Oh, wow. ;p

I've always felt sick about how you anarchists make a big deal to proclaim proudly that you would stand up for something that all of the rest of us would stand up for without beating our breasts and crowing about.

But isn't that what anarchists are all about - ego?

You can't afford to forward any political position or candidate because your fragile egos wouldn't stand-up to their deconstruction at the hands of others?

Standing against everyone else but for nothing yourself leaves you the 'superior', but intellectually vacant position of being able to pontificate to others without actually having to venture anything that would expose yourself to analysis

- because it would introduce the possibility that your favored candidates would come up lacking?

You wouldn't happen to be a school teacher, would you KH?

51

Dáithí,

San Jose 22/04/2008 05:43:15
#51 - whoever, passing as a Scottish Indonesian

>"Daithi I think you might want to go to a the Doctor you are evidently showing early signs of McCain Syndrome."

Now we see another weakness of the uninspired anarchist mind, an inability to have an original thought. Your "you are evidently showing early signs of McCain Syndrome" is obviously a takeoff on the 'BDS - Bush Derangement Syndrome' theme that has so annoyed people like you.

Come on, show us something new - AN ORIGINAL THOUGHT! You pride yourself on being a 'free thinker', can't you come up with one??

Hahaha!

52

Dáithí,

22/04/2008 06:08:27
#49 - KH

>"And if it wasn't for childish insults you would have nothing to say."

Really? Did you notice that NONE of my comments came before your 'childish insult' in post #27 directed at me?

Once again, how come you 'stand for nothing' anarchists can dish it out, but you can't take it?

Because you are phonies, proving my point!

Thanks, and goodnight.

Hahaha!
53

Pilrig.,

Livingston 22/04/2008 06:28:38
When does this snoozathon come to an end ? (yawn)
54

mike - across the pond,

Wally 22/04/2008 14:44:22
you spend a LOT of time bashing McCain...

he's not my first choice, by a LONG shot...

let me ask you a couple questions

1) McCain or Obama?
we know McCain has a short fuse... and has been "bristley" on occasion... my understanding is these are ANCIENT HISTORY... most occurring the better part of 20+ years ago...

Obama... theres a problem here... we DONT know Obama... he wont out the "bad actors" who wish to cozy up to him... this smacks of Richard Nixon.

Regardless of the FACT that Obamas plans for "change" are specifically tailored to his audience, and in stark conflict to each other. Not to mention being devoid of anything resembling detail.

2) McCain or Hillary?
do you really trust Hillary? is she really what you WANT in the WhiteHouse... Do you think McCains temper is any worse than Hillarys, McCain may have skeletons in his closet, Hillary has BODIES? Can we stand four more years of a Clinton (fleas wagging dogs) in the whitehouse?
55

mike - across the pond,

22/04/2008 14:57:30
"I stand for my family and would happily defend it with my life."

the entire point of american conservatives is that by looking ahead... planning ahead... THINKING ahead... and acting TODAY... hopefully you wont HAVE to "defend it with (yours, mine, or our posterities) lives"

the PRICES we have to pay today are because our forefathers (Jimmy Carter, HW Bush, Clinton, even Reagan) were reluctant to pay the full price THEN.... often they thought that a few CIA operations would suffice... we are finding out now that often those pricetags were merely down payments putting the FULL price off for a later generation...

do you GET that?

pay ONCE today, or TWICE tomorrow... I know its a tough concept to get across to the hedonistic liberal crowd.
56

John Blackley,

Florida 22/04/2008 21:01:26
There are hedonistic liberals in here? My God! Get the traps down!
57

frank tells,

usa 23/04/2008 01:02:53
I WANT TO FIX HILLARY CLINTON FOR STAYING WITH BILL WHEN SHE SHOULD HAVE DIVORCED HIM OVER:
1. HIS ANTIMASTURBATION
2. HIS CHEATING ADULTERY
ALSO IM AGAINST HER NOT LISTENING TO ME ABOUT VOTING AGAINST THE ANTI POKER BILL (PHONE CALLS, LETTERS) AND RECEIVING FUNDING FROM HEALTH INSURANCE COMPANIES WHEN THEY ARE ALREADY OVERCHARGING AND AGE DISCRIMINATING. I ALSO BELIEVE LIKE JOE LIEBERMAN THAT BILL CLINTON SHOULD HAVE BEEN IMPEACHED AFTER ILLEGALLY CHEATING ON HIS WIFE.
58

Fanling,

Hong Kong 23/04/2008 01:08:54
Far be it for me to comment on all these gentle American views on the topic. (Pinch oneself - this is a Scottish newspaper; I am a Scotsman.)

The one feature that is interesting only because of its absence is the Californian G-Cannibal's tub-thumping support of the Clinton harridan. Nowhere is he to be seen now that her campaign is headed for the plughole ... Fly-by-night desktop warrior supporter presumably.
59

Carolyn 1,

23/04/2008 02:03:37
41 Wally,By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA)

In #41 you wrote the usual bunch of crap and untruths.
Should I blame your lies on the aliens who control you? There were UFO sightings over Arizona last night, I guess your tin foil hat was not functioning?
Were you hearing voices?
No where, never, did I say what you wrote in #41.
Do you even understand what the concept of telling the truth is?
What I said, in reference to the military screening convicted felons to determine if they qualify for service, -I believe these kids should have the "opportunity to turn their life around, join the military and do something for the better good?"

Do you know what the concept of 'better good' means? Do you understand what it is to turn one's life around, or are these basic social interactions beyond your reasoning ability?
Do you understand there is a reconstruction and humanitarian effort in the Middle East being done by our military and it is a very fulfilling journey to help someone else, or do you not care about helping the them?

By the way, giving another human being a second chance when he asks for it is not a skit on a Comedy Channel, at least not where I live.
It is a Christian grace to help some one with a new start but I guess you didn't know that.

You're not Christian Wally you're a lemming.
60

57Nomad,

california 24/04/2008 02:23:23
#47 Wally

Glad to see you back. It was sad seeing that clown Dj trying to tell you where to post. I just read something interesting. You are a well know skeptic when it comes to 9/11. I'd like to hear your take on this:

http://news.scotsman.com/world/AlQaeda-No-2-accuses-Iran.4009088.jp

Rock on, Wally.

 

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