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'Council tax could go' says Labour leadership candidate



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Published Date: 05 August 2008
By David Maddox
IAIN Gray, one of the Scottish Labour leadership contenders, has said he would be willing to abolish the council tax.
Mr Gray's supporters say it is an attempt to grab the initiative on local taxation from the SNP government and finish off its controversial plans to replace the council tax with a 3p centrally set local income tax (LIT), which have been widely oppose
d.

"The SNP's discredited LIT proposals have been exposed as unworkable, undeliverable and unfair. It is now for Scottish Labour to fill the vacuum left by the SNP," he said.

His proposal would bring parties that support a property-based tax together to replace the council tax or reform it.

This could include the Greens' proposal for a land value tax, which is used in Australia.

Green MSP Patrick Harvie welcomed the move. "It's a step in the right direction for one of their leadership contenders to be considering land value tax," he said.

It has also been welcomed by the UK government.

A source close to Scotland Office minister David Cairns said: "This is exactly the sort of fresh idea we wanted to see in this leadership election."

But he warned that any solution would need to consider the effects on Scotland's £400 million council tax benefit, which would be lost with LIT.

The SNP welcomed Mr Gray's realisation that "the council tax is unfair" but added that if he wanted a fair solution he should support LIT.





The full article contains 250 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 04 August 2008 9:43 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Council tax
 
1

Am Balach,

Isle of Skye 05/08/2008 00:08:22
I predict a combination of LVT and LIT after talks between the Greens, Libs and John Swinney.

So Iain Gray, what about the Council Tax rebate? You going to stand up to Westminster on that?
2

Coileach an taobh Tuath,

05/08/2008 00:16:22


This will be interesting, if Scottish Labour are now dumping Council Tax, does that mean that whatever they come up with will not receive the £400M of CTb Benefit currently ascribed to Scotland under the Treasury's own Statement of Funding Policy......

What I also don't understand is, if a property-based tax is so fair and easy to collect, why do we bother with income tax at all? Why not abolish it and base taxation on property?

3

ThomasP,

05/08/2008 00:18:00
"It has also been welcomed by the UK government."

London says jump. Iain Gray asks how high?
4

Vivas,

Edinburgh 05/08/2008 00:21:14
David Maddox is Ian Grays media backer in The Northbrit. Don't overdo it David old son, 6 weeks to go and I wouldn't want you to run out of fawning too soon, pace yourself now...
5

Conan the Librarian™,

05/08/2008 00:21:15
2
Perhaps because the Duke of Westminster would then have to pay his fair share?
6

Richardinho,

05/08/2008 00:34:36
Has Local Income Tax been discredited? The week when the Scotsman printed the same story dredging up some stooge to slag it off doesn't count.
7

,

05/08/2008 00:35:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
8

Richardinho,

05/08/2008 00:36:36
And what exactly is the difference between a 'land value' tax and a 'property' tax?
9

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 05/08/2008 00:38:29

Believe this and next you will be seeing pigs that fly!
10

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 05/08/2008 00:52:29
Iain Grey Gray is quoted in the Times as wanting to enter a coalition with the Tories to ditch the Council tax. The Tories are grateful and welcome all converts to the conservative cause.

Full story is at

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article4460908.ece
11

FrancesP,

05/08/2008 01:19:21
Is any more proof needed that Iain Gray would be London Labour's man in Scotland? It looks likes every time he makes any kind of minor pronouncement we're going to hear 'sources close to David Cairns' showering praise on him, sycophantically saying 'gosh, what fresh, innovative thinking, Iain'. But heaven knows they desperately need to build their man up somehow because he's got less personality than the other two put together (and that's saying something).

I'd be rather more impressed by 'council tax will go says Gray' than 'council tax could go says Gray' (the Times article a proud doonhamer mentions is even more misleading). It's the classic tactic when you want to do nothing while looking like you're doing something - set up a committee. And in this case, a committee with a remit that tellingly includes the word 'reform' alongside 'abolition'. I've little doubt we'd simply end up with a new version of the Jack McConnell non-reforms, and we'd be back to an incredulous Bernard Ponsonby asking "how much more or less will someone in Band C pay? How much more or less will someone in Band D pay?" Answer - "well, Bernard, what I'm saying to you is, this is a very modest reform..."
12

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 05/08/2008 01:26:15
Now we have the English left abandoning Labour and endorsing the SNP as the true centre-left heirs of Old Labour.

http://www.tribunemagazine.co.uk/2008/08/04/change-the-tune-not-just-the-piper/
13

,

05/08/2008 02:19:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
14

Conan the Librarian™,

05/08/2008 03:17:36
13
Excellent article doonhamer.Says it all really, eh?
15

,

05/08/2008 03:36:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
16

Guga II,

Rockall 05/08/2008 06:11:58
#13.

Excellent article. Sums the situation up very nicely.
17

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 05/08/2008 07:09:48
Let's hear it for Land Value Tax! Paid only by landowners/those who can afford to pay. Impossible to evade. Cheap and easy to gather. Can be targetted to protect special cases. Ends dereliction and land hoarding/banking. Compels best use and user of the land. Wonderful.
18

Grahamski,

Falkirk 05/08/2008 07:45:31
2.
Nobody is suggesting that all tax should be based on property. Most experts in taxation would contend that the 'fairest' and most effective way to tax is to have as wide a spread of taxation methods as possible. The SNP's crass and simplistic argument that income tax is the only and fairest method is as hollow as it is dangerous.
We are now in the ludicrous position where we have the SNP proposing a LIT which by their own sums won't collect enough revenue to fund the current level of services provided by LAs throughout Scotland. They know it and more damagingly for them, almost every independent expert in the country has looked at the numbers and trashed the SNP's claims.
The one thing that can be said in the SNP's favour is that this has opened up a worthwhile debate on the fairest and most effective way to pay for the 20%-ish of the LA budget currently paid by council tax. One thing is for certain though: a LIT of 3% won't pay for it. Independent experts suggest that figure should be between 4.5% - 6%. Try working out the winners on losers on a 5% LIT and see how 'fair' it is.
19

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 05/08/2008 08:19:04
We believe that almost every independent country in the world collects income tax.
According to all the pundits Scottish LIT is unworkable.
The solution seems pretty obvious to us.
Become independent, collect your own taxes, stop taking pocket money from Westminster.
20

Linda,

Edinburgh 05/08/2008 08:21:45
David Maddox should know that the current contest is only for the leader of the 46 Labour MSPs at Holyrood not for Scottish Labour leadership which is retained by Gordon Brown (or his successor) at Westminster.
21

Tynietiger,

05/08/2008 08:27:31
I look forward to hearing the potential Labour Holyrood Group leaders explain why Scottish tax payers should continue to subsidise Council Tax Benefit in England and Wales while Westminster refuses to hand over Scotland's share if a Local Income Tax is agreed by a majority in a democratic vote of the Scottish Parliament
22

Tynietiger,

05/08/2008 08:30:14
More sloppy reported by Maddox. "LIT is widely opposed"
LIT supported by 80% in all tests of opinion and only opposed by 20% mainly vested or political interest groups.
23

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 05/08/2008 08:43:46
Why is it the the Labour Party in Scotland has never previously considered any changes to the system of local taxation, especially for the retired on fixed incomes?

Now that Mr. Gray is running for the leadership of the Party he has suddenly decided to look at ways of changing the Council Tax system in Scotland?

Could this have more to do with electioneering and
the radical agenda being set by the Nationalists rather than actually doing something about the Council Tax?

In any event, it is highly unlikely that London Labour would ever allow the Labour Party in Scotland to introduce a separate form of local taxation from that in England and Wales.
24

Alan B,

05/08/2008 10:04:24
So now that labour in scotland might want to abolish the council tax, will labuor in london still be withholding the council tax rebate from scotland. You could not make this up. What excuse will they come up with for paying the same money to scotland from the council tax rebate when labour abolish council tax.

Also. Labour have had 10yrs of council tax under their leadership. Why talk about abolishing it as soon as you lose power. If this lot had brains it would be dangerous.
25

Iain green,

Haddington 05/08/2008 10:11:34
And replace it with what exactly.
Well, he'll have to check with Gordon and Alistair first.
No ideas of his own.
Typical - negative, negative, negative.
26

M.Corleone,

2nd Vatican State...... Coatbridge 05/08/2008 10:11:41
#7

Vivas Las Vivas....great, are you at the fringe as well?

LOL
27

John S,

05/08/2008 10:23:16
It has also been welcomed by the UK government. A source close to Scotland Office minister David Cairns said: "This is exactly the sort of fresh idea we wanted to see in this leadership election."
Yes it is a fresh idea after having been in power for 10 years to bring parties that support a property-based tax together to ask them what to do next about the council tax.
Is Iain Gray now getting his statements vetted, approved and probably written by the Labour lead UK government and this is even before he is elected leader of the Scottish Parliamentary Labour group.
28

Badgerczars,

Sunning myself in Bathgate 05/08/2008 10:37:51
Surely the fairest charge is a per capita rate? The money provides for Council services, therefore shouldn't we be paying for what we use? If theres one in your household, pay one portion, if theres 12 then pay 12 portions. Or did someone already think of that one before? I dont go into Tesco and pay the same for my shopping as a larger household (unless I buy the same quantity), so why pay for a larger portion of Council Services than I could possibly use? My other taxes contribute to the 80% Central Goverment Grant anyway..................
29

Miss H,

05/08/2008 11:06:03
19 What you are saying is that the SNP appears to be succeeding in building a cross-party consensus that council tax must go.

Who'd have thunk it?

30

Arfur,

05/08/2008 11:14:30
You couldn't write the shambles that is Labour these days.

After their lose of Glasgow East all they said was that they would listen to the people - 80% of people in Scotland, thats right AM2 80%, support LIT.

So what do Labour do? Go for a land based one (which i think would push most of Scotland back to renting because if people who rent i.e. don't own land, the land owners are going to have to cover that share also).

Over 80% do not want nuclear in Scotland. What do Labour do? Call Salmond a shamles for trying to get rid of it.

Useless idiots.

BTW - which tube is ruining the other threds?
31

brownlie,

05/08/2008 11:26:40
31 Alfur

As far as the other thread is concerned I think the Scotsman red-lined it when they realised that Jackie B came too close to home when talking about "flops" "waste of time and money" and "those affected by the credit crunch".
32

brownlie,

05/08/2008 11:52:53
So the government is putting another £3 billion into Northern Rock. Obviously the bank is more needy than the poor and disadvantaged in Scotland who could have benefitted from the with-held "small change" figure of £400 million council tax "benefit".
33

Publius,

London 05/08/2008 11:59:50
#33 brownlie

You're half right. The 3 billion for Northern Rock is a disgrace....but, under LIT, the 300 million wouldn't go the poor and disadvantaged. It would go to the Scottish Holyrood which would hand it on to local councils.
Council tax benefit reduces (or eliminates) council tax for the poor. LIT means that everyone earning more than the tax threshold - currently about 6 grand -will pay.
34

Publius,

London 05/08/2008 12:03:27
#24 Mr. Lachie Todd

You've inadvertently highlighted one advantage of property taxes. They are an inducement to pensioners who live in big houses to sell them on to people with higher earnings - and bigger families.
Under LIT pensioners with big houses will gain the most - not the working poor.
35

"Hoots" Fandango,

05/08/2008 12:05:39
Who is destroying the other threads?
36

Publius,

London 05/08/2008 12:07:27
#18 Rulesbutnotrulers

A land value tax might bankrupt some of the biggest building companies. They own land with outline planning permission for houses, so it has a high value. But they can't (or won't) build houses at present, because the market is in free fall.
37

Publius,

London 05/08/2008 12:08:46
#29 Badgerczars

You must have got sunstroke in Bathgate. What you propose is a poll tax!
38

ThomasP,

05/08/2008 12:13:48
Labour considering replacing Council Tax is like almost saying it was wrong in the first place.
39

John south of Soutra,

05/08/2008 12:20:19
It's not that long ago that Iain Gray was arguing for council tax in his columns in the local newspapers when did this conversion take place, but we should really be thankful for small mercies at least he is proposing a change although it has taken him over 10 years to think of it
40

Scottish 'N British,

05/08/2008 12:30:13
Could this be a way oot for Swinney?
41

Alan B,

05/08/2008 12:36:08
#41 What now he appears to have won the argument that council tax should go?
42

brownlie,

05/08/2008 12:38:54
34 Publius
Hi, Pub,

So the £300 million which would be handed to the local authorities by the Scottish government would not help to address the needs of the poor and disadvantaged?

For instance, would it not help to provide facilities in deprived areas?
43

brownlie,

05/08/2008 12:40:52
36 Hoots

Nice moniker. Perhaps if the threads are destroyed we will all flock to AM2's site!
44

Alan B,

05/08/2008 12:41:22
Grey has actually created a big problem for labour with his pronouncement. What happens say if kerr wins the leadership (is kerr not the favourite)? Say Kerr supports a property based tax. Given that labour have supported it council tax for the last 10yrs and have been so against a income based tax that is a good bet. They cannot all be against something they have supported so strongly.

How then can labour really argue for the council tax under any other leader. Of all the things to come out with Grey has probably chosen the silliest and most likely to cause any other future leader a problem.

The simply would look stupid supporting income tax like lit for local government now. They will find it difficult to support a property based tax now that grey have broken ranks.

There are not many options left and he has really put them under pressure without actually coming up with any specific idea himself.
45

Arfur,

05/08/2008 12:44:16
18 Rulesbutnotrulers - where do I start you complete fool,

"Paid only by landowners/those who can afford to pay"

- really? landowners???? do you think this is only for the uber wealthy or something? noooo its for all property owners. what about the older generation? bought a house 50 years ago for £14k and its now worth £100k. do you think they can afford?

"Impossible to evade"

- collected the same way as council tax. something like 20% of people failed to pay their council tax last year. didn't you get the memo?

"Cheap and easy to gather" - see above

"Can be targetted to protect special cases"

- as can just about anything, your point is caller?

"Ends dereliction and land hoarding/banking. Compels best use and user of the land. Wonderful"

- Really? Well actually what I think you will see and I know an economist that thinks like wise is that:

As less than half of the country own their property the half that do will have to pay twice as much to cover this. People will revert back to renting instead of buying.

Owners of flats that were letting out will not be making profit due to the high taxes they are paying will sell their flats creating a shortage of flats to rent. Basically you will have a situation where the government has pushed everyone to renting instead of buying when there are no flats to rent.

Yes, absolutely wonderful, you complete halfwit.
46

Alan B,

05/08/2008 12:44:58
#35 Publius

I hardly see forcing pensioners out their homes as an advantage of a tax.

If we have a poor housing stock, lack of supply or not enough family housing then that should be addressed. It is not like we do not have enough land in ratio to people.

Pensioners with the state of pensions are more likely to need help rather than people that can fend for themselves.
47

antifa,

05/08/2008 12:46:54
In Northern Ireland they have a tax based on capital values without banding - so it is genuinely progressive, much more so than LIT or council tax. Strange that no-one mentions this as a possible way out. It should be acceptable to Swinney, and it is certainly acceptable to Labour as they introduced it in NI via direct rule.
48

Scottish 'N British,

05/08/2008 12:54:20
42

Nice try. No, based on the prediction that his CA-LIT is unworkable, especially at 3p.

49

Scottish 'N British,

05/08/2008 12:55:57
33

The SNP can't expect to get a Council tax rebate if they don't collect Council Tax.
50

ThomasP,

05/08/2008 13:01:25
#50

And what does Labour plan to do if they press on to change the system?
51

Alan B,

05/08/2008 13:03:40
#49 Scottish 'N British

You misread what i said. I said that with Grey statement he appears to have won the argument that council tax should go. (It will be very difficult for any alternative labour leader to back council tax or (some very similar property tax rebranded).

While he seems to have won this argument, (not persuaded me as i support a property tax), he still has to win the LIT argument in parliament. (how the whole thing plays with the public is a different matter and we will have to see).

As for the 3p tax rate it means a tax cut and is workable just as any other tax cuts are workable. I support the tax cut but would use it realigning the property tax which has risen far too fast under labour.

52

Alan B,

05/08/2008 13:14:34
#Scottish 'N British

"The SNP can't expect to get a Council tax rebate if they don't collect Council Tax."

Firstly to be presise they do not want a council tax rebate. They want scotland share of the money that england will get as a council tax rebate to be allocated to scotland (most likely as part of the block grant).

What is wrong with that? I am being serious and not wanting your normal glib remarks.

The way money is shared within the uk is currently barnett. Putting aside the rights and wrongs of barnett it means that scotland get a percentage share of spending in england. Council tax rebate within england is clearly expenditure for england. It makes complete sense for scotland to get via the scottish parliament that money so that scotland can spend it as the scottish parliament sees fit.

While i do not support lit i do support the right of the sp to chance the method of local government taxation, a power given to it by devolution by the scotland act. It is absurd if the sp should choose to use this democractic power than it will be punished by losing money.

It is weird how noone arguing labours position has been able to say why this is right. Even AM2 said he wanted the money to come to scotland but did not want it to go the the scottish government as he did not want them rewarded for their behaviour. Not exactly a good consitutional argument but he does get carried away. He favoured the monies going directly to councils in scotland.

Also can you answer the question. If grey now wants to get rid of a property tax how will labour find it in them to give scotland the council tax rebate money when labour in scotland want to abolish this tax.

Also what would happen if england were to abolish it and scotland keep the council tax. The rebate would automatically end as their would be no council tax and scotland would not get any future rebate for any future english local government tax unless we were to follow and adopt their chosen method. It
53

Alan B,

05/08/2008 13:16:55
cont..

It is completely barmy.

If labour actually put it unionism before it petty fight with the snp it would have ensured the money was part of the block grant (as some if its documentation said, something u have also ignored), and allow labour to argue against lit in the sp where it could very easily win.

54

Publius,

London 05/08/2008 13:30:45
#43 brownlie

Hello Brownlie

I doubt whether local government expenditure could be targeted to benefit those who will pay more under LIT. Even it could be I don't think those who have to pay more will be appreciate it. They'll just look at their pay slips and see that more money has been docked from their gross pay.
55

Number 6,

Germany 05/08/2008 13:30:53
Why is this sleaze tainted failure even being listened to ?. This , don't forget is the hopless case that lost a safe SCOTTISH labour seat to the TORIES !!!.

he showed his character in his sleazy handling of Bendy's donations. Yet here he is, rehabilitated as one of Labour's finest. Is this really all they have to offer the Scottish people ?.

Do they really think it is acceptable to foist such a disreputable figure on us as a candidate?

It seems their arrogance, stupidity and down right ignorance remain undiminished. I hope they are punished badly at the ballot box for this.
56

Publius,

London 05/08/2008 13:39:48
#47 Alan B

Hi Alan
You write 'I hardly see forcing pensioners out their homes as an advantage of a tax'.

This is political hyperbole. All that will happen if we move from council tax to LIT is that more pensioners will continue to live in big houses instead of selling them on.

There are several good reasons why older people should live in smaller houses. (1) If they downsize they will have money to put in savings accounts, gain interest and enhance their income. (2) Their fuel bills will be smaller, so they will be more likely to stay warm. (3)Home help costs etc will be lower. (4) Property maintenance will be easier and less expensive; elderly people often allow larger houses to decay.

These considerations shouldn't be dismissed. Pensioners in big houses will be the people who see the biggest immediate fall in taxation if LIT replaces council tax. Caring for the elderly is already very difficult and very expensive - for all taxpayers. Abolishing council tax will aggravate the problem.
57

,

05/08/2008 14:02:57
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
58

Alan B,

05/08/2008 14:07:54
#Publius

While i am not pro abolishing council tax i would like pensioners to be excempt (or atleast 50% reduction). The way i see it, it is difficult to provide a pension for yourself (outwidth long term public servants).

As such i would rather than we have to pay for public services while working rather than after we retire.

On the issue of encouraging older people to move home, i would totally reject that. Yes if someone wants to move to free up capital fair enough but the government should not be pushing them to do so by taxing them. There are many reasons people would like to stay in the home they live in after retiral.
1)many memories
2)know the area and neighbours - moving to a less valuable house can mean moving to a worse area and hence they can be afraid to leave the house. Have no network of people they have known for years.
3)maybe they want to spend time in the house they have had and prepared retiral for.
4)moving to a small home can mean no visitor staying creating isolation and lonelyness.
5)if it means moving to a flat then there is stairs etc.
6)they would then be hit with moving fees and stamp duty.

If people want to move for the reasons you mention fair enough but we should not use the tax system to encourage people to move home.

59

Stuntman Mike,

05/08/2008 14:25:14
#57 Number 6: Why is this sleaze tainted failure even being listened to ?. This , don't forget is the hopless case that lost a safe SCOTTISH labour seat to the TORIES !!!.

Pray tell me what exactly you’re talking about??? I’m interested to know, as will be many others; or is this a dig at Labour for losing Glasgow East to a group of driven individuals whose ostensible aim is Scottish separation but who are often referred to for various reasons as “Tartan Tories”?
60

Stuntman Mike,

05/08/2008 14:27:28
I'm getting as bad for posting dislocated nonsense as No 6: my post above refers to post #56 not #57.
61

Publius,

London 05/08/2008 14:29:54
#59 Alan B

Alan
We are not as far apart as this thread seems to be taking us. All I am pointing out is one of the likely unintended consequences of abolishing council tax and transferring the burden to income tax. There will be probably be other unintended consequences too - mainly to do with income tax avoidance and evasion.
Anyway I doubt if it matters what Iain Gray says about council tax. I can't see him ever becoming first minister.
62

The Master,

05/08/2008 14:35:13
#57 Publius: interesting post as usual, but I fear you overlook the fact that many pensioners in large houses are funding their retirement through Equity Release Schemes (or have it in mind to do so in the future), with the result that downsizing is either impracticable or unnecessary

Not that I’d support LIT, you understand: it’s unworkable and everyone knows that poor old Swinney’s sounds distinctly muted in his defence of it.
63

Alan B,

05/08/2008 14:42:41
#Publius

I am not pro abolishing a property based tax as i think it is better to have a wide tax base, rather than potentially over loading one single tax. Overloading one tax even if the fairest does not neccessarily make for a fair tax system. (There is also the argument about waht actually constitutes fairness.)

Do not think lit would necessarily encourage evasion or avoidance significantly as this already happens. But a reason for not overloading that tax. Although moving your income to a non salaried will help people with avoidance.

My problem with the council tax is basically it has risen too fast. Council taxes should have basically gone up with inflation, rather than yr on yr inflation busting increase. And as i said i would like pensioners to be excempt or atleast reduced significantly.

"Anyway I doubt if it matters what Iain Gray says about council tax."

Do think it matters as it will mean
1)if he is leader of labour in holyrood they have basically agreed to remove council tax and it is inconceivable that means a rehashed property tax.
2)if he does not win the leadership he is putting the next leader in a very difficult position. How will that leader be able to say council tax is good and have labour supporting that position.
3)labour will have to come up with an alternative to council tax and not lit. it is always easier to bash a proposal than have one yourself.
4)he has made labour in londons position about the council tax rebate untenable.

64

Alan B,

05/08/2008 14:44:09
#63 The Master

Glad i was sitting down as i agree with you regarding "funding their retirement through Equity Release Schemes" :)
65

Alan B,

05/08/2008 14:48:27
#The Master

I do not support lit but i cannot see how you can say it is unworkable. Tell that to the lib dems, labours last partner in government.

LIT is workable but that does not make it the best option.

It has disabvantages of:
1)overloading single tax - which leads to avoidance/evasion etc, unbalanced tax system.
2)does not give councils in current form flexibility to change tax rate. giving them that power will make the whole thing very complicated and could have alot of consquences.

The tax cut issue really depends on whether you want higher tax or lower. That really depends on your political outlook. So an advantage to some and not others.
66

Number 6,

Germany 05/08/2008 15:01:41
#60 Good grief mickey boy ! did you have NO IDEA this article had lost his previous scottish seat to the tories. Not that that bothered Liebour, they simply parachuted him into his current seat, probably with the instruction "Gonnae no lose this wan".

Grey was also the scumbag who solicited the dodgy donation from Abraham, you know the guy who was not eligable to donate, Not living in the UK not even a citizen etc. Not that that bothered Grey.

You seem to have been away filming too long, or maybe you are suffering from a recent head injury, no matter what,
you don't half sound out of touch. How ignorant.
67

Stuntman Mike,

05/08/2008 15:21:42
#67 Number 6: I think you’ll find that Edinburgh Pentlands is in no way what anyone would classify as a “safe” Labour seat and that Gray only ever won it against the odds and on the back of an unusually strong surge in the Labour vote.

I actually live in Edinburgh and know that Pentlands contains some of the most affluent areas to be found anywhere in the country and that, although it is socially diverse (containing as it does areas such as Wester Hailes), it was held by Sir Malcolm Rifkind from 1974-1997 and as such only fell from the hands of the Tories when they finally suffered complete meltdown in Scotland. Care to repeat your assertion that it was a “safe” Labour seat that fell to the Tories, or do you have more knowledge of Munich than Edinburgh? You're about as in touch as a seagull stranded on top of an oil slick (I know that you've got a thing about oil - do you like to take a bath in the stuff or what?)
68

Number 6,

Germany 05/08/2008 15:30:35
Oh dear !! your so right, how dare I use the word safe.
The fact remains, he could not persuade the voters in his constituency to vote liebour,they voted TORY.
As for my allegations of sleaze, I stand by them.
Care to comment on his sleazy past, or are you still on the smelling salts after my henoious use of the word safe.

Pathetic tantrum by the way.
69

Miss H,

05/08/2008 15:42:03
45 Gray is not the only one - Stephen Purcell has also said that council tax must be abolished. What we are seeing here is Labour preparing to change their position completely. And when they do all the spurious arguments about council tax benefit such as that put forward by Scottish & British will vanish like snow off a dyke.
70

Stuntman Mike,

05/08/2008 15:49:53
#69 Number 6: excuse me, but you’re the one who became exercised over the fact that Gray managed to lose one of the few naturally Tory seats in Scotland. And you accuse me of going off on one!

As for your allegations of sleaze, Wendy has taken the rap for the mock indignation of you Nats: how much longer do you want to milk this one? It’s yesterday’s news already (as, indeed, are Trumpgate and the “u-turn” over bus deregulation to please a certain extremely wealthy Nat backer).
71

Calum Crubag,

Alba gu brath! 05/08/2008 15:52:37
Cooncil tax only contributes some 25% of cooncil income. Most is already raised thru' PAYE which is based on level of income. Other countries manange it, why not Scotland.

SNP, Lib Dems and independently minded Labour MSPs should get together and get rid of the unfair council tax. Asap.
72

Saruman,

05/08/2008 16:13:03
#72: but the point of CT is to provide a level of local accountability for revenue raised and spent on local services. Under the Nats' proposals as they currently stand, that will be replaced by a centrally set flat rate (to be determined!)

I would also remind you that the Burt Report rejected LIT on the ground that wealth as well as income should be taxed and tax on investment income would be "extremely complex and expensive".
73

elizabeth the first,

05/08/2008 16:23:56
If i want to live in a big house i know that i’ll pay more than if i live in an ex council down the road and that i’ll need to have enough money to pay for both it and the CT,people in big house’s can well afford CT and would pay nothing on investment’s under LIT, the poor and student’s pay nothing under CT anyway. How’s that unfair LOL,Gray’s flying a kite on this one,but at least he's going to bring in another property tax and not the Nats' poll tax 2
74

,

05/08/2008 16:45:10
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
75

"Hoots" Fandango,

05/08/2008 16:47:25
74

Gibberish.
76

elizabeth the first,

05/08/2008 16:55:56
75.it’s funny the nat’s were nowhere in glasgow east 2 year’s ago,or is that a long time ago to you nat’s,even longer ago than ’93(free by ’93 might come back,whoever’s leader can use it again later this century LOL).

Labour’s primary focus is the welfare of the disposesed,not seperation that nobody wants,that’s why they’ll be back in Glasgow East if not at the next election then the one after that and for a long time to come anyway
77

elizabeth the first,

05/08/2008 16:56:32
meant 3 year's ago
78

brownlie,

05/08/2008 17:04:47
74/77 Elizabeth the First

You are doing a lot of laughing out loud today. I can't say I'm surprised as your postings are even more comical than usual!
79

elizabeth the first,

05/08/2008 17:14:33
79.there’s nothing comical about what slimy salmond wants to do to scotland,you’ll never hear me go LOL about that,there’s nothing funny about albania LOL

btw,he's answering questions in the independant soon,will write one for him to answer about his rigged referendum,watch out for it
80

elizabeth the first,

05/08/2008 17:15:23
meant rigged referendum question,don't think voting itself will be rigged,he's not Mugabe
81

,

05/08/2008 17:17:13
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Reason:
82

Publius,

London 05/08/2008 17:17:27
#64 Alan B

Alan
None of your list. I just can't see Labour being the largest party in the Scottish Paliament during the next ten years. Whoever is leader of the Labour MSPs won't be first minister.
That said, I think what Gray means is a 'rehashed property tax'.
83

,

05/08/2008 17:18:16
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
84

Publius,

London 05/08/2008 17:25:07
#63 The Master

Hi Master
Good point about equity release...but I hope that most people do not go down this road. It's fraught with difficulty and the only winners are the financiers who run these schemes.
85

Am Balach,

Isle of Skye 05/08/2008 17:31:58
People are confusing Land Value Tax and Property tax. LVT is based on the intended use of land, and the fundamental principle that land is not "owned", but is taxed for the common good.

There will be winners and losers, but is much more equitable than a property tax, does not require massive public subsidy to buy community land (as it is the use of land, not the ownership which is important), eliminates the scourge of land speculation and "planning consent millionaires", and does not penalise personal endeavour, like local income tax.

It also allows land to be productive and encourages sustainable growth.

Therefore, main reason for it is that it is inherently just - which is what politics should be about.

I hope the SNP look at this seriously, as a tax which is both fair, and would help eliminate the boom bust cycle of land/property speculation must be something to aspire to.

Read Fred Harrison on the subject:
http://www.ablemesh.co.uk/thoughtsboombust.html

86

The Master,

05/08/2008 17:41:17
#85 Publius: I understand that the only potential problem with Equity Release is that it makes it difficult for one partner to downsize if the other dies after the scheme has been running for a number of years.

As long as a couple are sure that they are living in their final house, it’s a perfectly legitimate and sensible way to fund a retirement in these days of poor returns on with profits pension schemes.
87

"Hoots" Fandango,

05/08/2008 17:45:27
Elizabeth the first LOL!!!
Posting drivel LOL!!!
Hasn't a clue LOL!!!
Can't spell LOL!!!

Is she real? Surely it must be a wind-up. Nobody can be that thick.




























LOL!!!
88

elizabeth the first,

05/08/2008 17:45:39
84.but luxembourg’s no scotland,your comparing apples with orange’s,or saddle of roe deer with deep fried mars bar's LOL
89

"Hoots" Fandango,

05/08/2008 17:47:18
Gas prices up LOL.
90

elizabeth the first,

05/08/2008 17:50:46
88.I’m a valuable member of society,I TEACH 7-16 YEAR OLD'S WITH READING DIFFICULTY'S, and by your posts your in no postion to call someone else thick!
91

"Hoots" Fandango,

05/08/2008 17:50:55
Elizabeth the first

Let's correct this gibberish.

but (But) luxembourg’s (Luxembourg's) no (not) scotland, (Scotland). your (You're) comparing apples with orange’s, (oranges) or saddle of roe deer with deep fried mars (Mars) bar's (bars). LOL (;-((

Dreadful post (LOL)
92

"Hoots" Fandango,

05/08/2008 17:52:01
91

You teach kids with reading difficulties? I bet they were OK till YOU got involved.

LOL
93

"Hoots" Fandango,

05/08/2008 17:56:07
Here's the news on LOL
94

Publius,

London 05/08/2008 18:01:33
#87 The Master

The problem with equity release is that circumstances change in unforeseen ways.
You must have heard the old one about gypsy fortune teller at the fair with a sign outside her door 'closed due to unforeseen circumstances'.

Anyway an interesting discussion. I guess the LIT thing is going to run and run until the SNP abandons the idea.
95

elizabeth the first,

05/08/2008 18:03:49
92.just because i’m not a retired nat voting solicitor living in crief,there’s no need to be snoby about me,you nat’s won’t win in glasgow much longer if that’s your attitude,you called Glasgow East the Gaza Strip,you are a bunch of snob’s and people only vote for you for a protest,they know your really tartan tory’s
96

Miss H,

05/08/2008 18:04:15
86 OK explain to me how and va;lue tax works in an urban setting. I understand how it works in a rural setting but most people live in urban areas. Take my example - one of eight owner occupying households living up the same close. Do we all pay the same?
97

Publius,

London 05/08/2008 18:14:01
#96 elizabeth the first

You've a good line in insults, but your #74 is right on. Under council tax the more your house is worth, the more you pay. That seems pretty fair to me.

Anyway, hen, I'm off to the pub. Auchtentoshan tonight to drink to the health of a Glasgow lassie like yerself.
98

elizabeth the first,

05/08/2008 18:16:50
98.thanx,if people listened to me more,they might learn something
99

elizabeth the first,

05/08/2008 18:16:58
98.thanx,if people listened to me more,they might learn something
100

"Hoots" Fandango,

05/08/2008 18:19:12
99 and 100

I can't listen as I don't have a magic computer. I do read your posts though. Childish & moronic.

LOL