Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement

The hunt is On.
Sponsored by
Can you track down Scotland's wildest beastie?
 
 
Friday, 5th December 2008 Change Date

Premium Article !

Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Options

Premium Article !

To read this article in full you must have registered and have a Premium Content Subscription with the The Scotsman site.

Subscribe

Registered Article !

To read this article in full you must be registered with the site.

Defiant Salmond ignores barrage of flak over tax



Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 04 September 2008
A BULLISH Alex Salmond swept aside the objections of business, councils, unions and a majority of MSPs in the Scottish Parliament yesterday when he declared that he would drive ahead with his controversial local income tax plans.
The bill to scrap the council tax and replace it with a nationally-set local income tax was one of 15 unveiled in a "programme for government" by the First Minister in the Scottish Parliament.

But in doing so, Mr Salmond was effectively ignoring the results of his own government's consultation process, which has already revealed massive and widespread opposition to the tax plans.

Business organisations, council leaders and trade unionists have warned that the tax would result in cuts in services and leave some wealthy people untaxed, while making Scotland the highest-taxed part of the United Kingdom.

In the parliament, opposition politicians have warned of a £1 billion black hole in the plans, which rely on £400 million coming from Westminster every year – money the UK Treasury has consistently refused to give.

The First Minister was unswerving in his conviction, however, that the local income tax was fairer than the council tax, and he challenged MSPs, warning them that "Scotland will judge harshly any MSP who votes to keep the council tax in the face of the overwhelming benefit that would flow to millions of Scots".

Mr Salmond claimed that about four in every five households would either be better off or no worse off financially under his local income tax.

The decision to press ahead with it was just one of a series of measures announced by Mr Salmond yesterday that will test the strength of his government over the course of the next year.

A Criminal Justice Bill will ban under-21s from buying alcohol from off-licences – a proposal that has aroused fierce criticism from the licensed trade and students.

In a Climate Change Bill, Mr Salmond said his government would reduce emissions by 80 per cent by 2050, a significantly higher target than the 60 per cent UK target, but his plans immediately ran into opposition from environmentalists, who claimed that he had failed to include annual targets and was not bringing aviation emissions under control.

There will also be moves to crack down on tobacco displays in shops, to stop rural schools from closure and a key budget bill, which will have to be passed by March next year for the Scottish Government to fund any of its other priorities.

But it was the Council Tax Abolition Bill that drew most attention, mainly because it has drawn so much criticism already. Mr Salmond said he would forge ahead, regardless of the criticism directed at it in the consultation process, because it would help thousands of ordinary Scots.

The bill will be published before the parliament rises next June and will have to become law by April 2010 for Mr Salmond to stand any chance of getting it up and running before the elections of May 2011.

The First Minister said: "Abolition of council tax will lift 85,000 individuals from poverty and save the average Scottish family between £350 and £535 a year."

Cathy Jamieson, the acting leader of the Scottish Labour Party, said: "We know that the reality is that the local income tax proposals will cause misery for people who rely on local services and cut the legs from local government, making Scotland the highest-taxed part of the UK."

She said Mr Salmond should "stop gambling with people's local services to save his own political skin".

Annabel Goldie, leader of the Scottish Conservatives, said local income tax had been "comprehensively rubbished and ridiculed" in the consultation process, and asked Mr Salmond how he could possibly pursue it after that.

The First Minister responded by claiming that, in every test of public opinion, local income tax had been more popular than the council tax.

Scottish ministers will now enter into discussions with the Liberal Democrats to see if a deal can be reached. The Lib Dems also favour a local income tax but want councils to be able to set their own rates, rather than having them set centrally.

If the SNP government agrees to meet the Lib Dem demands, then the two parties will probably be able to forge a deal, but they would still not have enough votes to carry the parliament. For that, ministers will have to win over the Greens, who have opposed a local income tax but might be willing to compromise if ministers toughen up the Climate Change Bill.

There was some confusion over the Lib Dem position last night, however, when Ed Davey, the foreign affairs spokesman, suggested it might be hard to introduce local income tax in just one part of the UK.

This runs counter to the view of Tavish Scott, the party leader, who has insisted he wants to see a local income tax if possible.

Of the 15 bills unveiled yesterday, one on flood risk management was carried over from last year's programme. One other bill that was lost last year, to set up the Creative Scotland arts agency, is to be resurrected, but only as part of another bill on public service reform.

The full article contains 879 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

ThomasP,

04/09/2008 00:07:36
"...and a majority of MSPs in the Scottish Parliament yesterday..."

If a majority of MSPs spoke out against the LIT plans then it will never happen!!!

This paper should report of useful politics rather then on bills that don't make it in Parliament.
2

Coileach an taobh Tuath,

04/09/2008 00:18:22

The picture with this story paints a thousand words.

Labour have got it soooo wrong on this one.

Once again, they are chasing a predominately Tory vote.

I'm looking forward to seeing the finalised BIll
3

Castaway,

04/09/2008 00:20:52
With the British Labour Party (Scottish Branch) and the Scottish Tories against the LIT and the LibDems on the fence let them make this a vote of no confidence issue and then see what happens.
Wendy said if the SNP don't get the LIT Tax Bill through parliament she will put a vote of no confidence in the government so they will have to go to the people Mar 29 2008
With the LIT the opposition parties have the opportunity to force an election but will they be man or woman enough to go down that road or are they just all mouth and no action ?
4

Conan the Librarian™,

04/09/2008 00:21:05
I think the photo sums up the current political position :-)
5

Conan the Librarian™,

04/09/2008 00:49:36
6
Ok Mike, I give in.

Do you really, really want a job for JP?

Do you have a first born son?

And will you miss him much?
6

Pat Scot,

04/09/2008 01:00:08
This is a sensible programme, and I hope they do well with it. The picture could portray the SNP leadership as smug, but smugness won't work.

As a minority government, they recognise politics as "the art of the possible". It may take a few deals and compromises on the way, and if that's what it takes, just go for it - do the deals, push ahead.
7

Conan the Librarian™,

04/09/2008 01:05:34
8
The Peoples Liberation Army do not have sticky keyboards.
8

subrosa,

04/09/2008 01:07:23
Good photos though. Someone at the Scotsman's got a sense of humour.
9

Conan the Librarian™,

04/09/2008 01:08:49
10
Too late, and good luck to them.
10

Conan the Librarian™,

04/09/2008 01:10:56
14
I acknowledge your expertise.
11

somerferg,

perth 04/09/2008 01:27:56

Love the picture of the 3 monkeys - especially like the check out chick Jamieson although the other two could also quite easily pass as tornado bait too.
12

Conan the Librarian™,

04/09/2008 01:35:48
19
Thanks.

How many do you go through when you are on the Scotsman?

And when you are posting as well?
13

indune1,

Canada 04/09/2008 01:55:26

Mike - do you have anything remotely intelligent to add to the topic at hand (no pun intended, given your previous posts).

Good evening Conan. Long time no see (or read, should I say).
14

Conan the Librarian™,

04/09/2008 01:58:12
21
Good morning Dunnie.
15

Conan the Librarian™,

04/09/2008 02:03:26
21
A wee family emergency Dunnie, staying up for a phone call.

If I don't respond again don't hold it against me.
16

Shamus,

Glasgow 04/09/2008 02:04:24
Salmond is hoping that greed and envy will carry the day for his aspirations. He is not interested in the prosperity of our country. Independence is his narrow minded agenda. Scotland will become if he has his way a welfare dependent state. Most hard working Scots will leave and help other countries prosper as we seem to have done historically. Scotlands loss other peoples gain.
17

,

04/09/2008 02:16:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
18

indune1,

Canada 04/09/2008 02:19:38

Conan - hope everything is all right.

You'll be in my thoughts and I'll catch up with you on the threads.

Cheers mate.
19

Alan Reid,

NZ 04/09/2008 02:34:21
# 24, Garbage.
20

Robbie 2,

New Zealand 04/09/2008 03:28:54
24 Shamus, Glasgow 04/09/2008 02:04:24
“He (Salmond) is not interested in the prosperity of our country.”
If Alex Salmond was interested only in his own political career - he would have taken a much easier route and joined the Labour Party. It would have been a joy ride for him and he’d most likely be Prime Minister by now. It’s because (like other talented SNP politicians) he did care for Scotland that he took the harder route an helped built a higher profile for the SNP despite the Scottish Media , most of the teachers, clerics and history books in Scottish schools.
“Most hard working Scots will leave and help other countries prosper as we seem to have done historically. Scotland’s loss other peoples gain.”
Ironically they leave for independent sovereign lands some large (Canada), some small (New Zealand) but virtually all prosper in these self- determining nations.
What is these paranoiac fear, Shamus, of having controlling one’s own taxes and foreign policies?
Hi Alan!!!
21

Robbie 2,

NZ 04/09/2008 03:40:09
28 bring them on,
“Alex is looking more and more like the laughing clown they used to have outside the Fun House at the Pleasure Beach in Blackpool.”
So not all (perhaps none) politicians are 190cm athletic studs. Where does you comment fit into a political debate? You might find in this Parliamentary session many will be laughing at the clowns on the Labour benches as they seek ‘new policies’. What was wrong with Labour’s (original Labour) original policies.
How can you keep looking for new policies after umpteen years without admitting your old one were wanting.
Also remember Labour was originally a ‘home rule’ party - maybe they should revert to that.
22

duelay no more,

perth 04/09/2008 03:49:25
WHO is kidding who?

Tax reform never ends up with a reduction. It merely changes the rules so that those with vested interests can benefit for a while and local government can continue to expand its workforce trying to impliment the changes.

Its invariably about someone's EGO.
23

The Pict.,

Canada 04/09/2008 03:50:39
# 29 Robbie. Absolutely correct. The canny dae that bunnet doffers parrot their english masters while pretending to be Scots.
24

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 04/09/2008 04:35:03
This paper really does suck, when are you going to catch the message that SCOTLAND IS CHANGEING, and for the better. We are now at last, not putting up with those LYING leibour concervative dead beats and the NO DECISION PARTY lib;dems. SCOTLAND IS HEADING FOR INDEPENDENCE and they cannot stop it. Anyway who is going to buy your paper when you cannot report anything SCOTTISH anymore. Got it, the english !!!!!!!!
25

,

04/09/2008 05:13:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
26

,

04/09/2008 05:24:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
27

,

04/09/2008 05:32:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
28

,

04/09/2008 05:33:04
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
29

,

04/09/2008 05:37:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
30

,

04/09/2008 05:41:16
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
31

Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

04/09/2008 05:51:38
43 bring them on,04/09/2008 05:35:54

Now that you have got that shoiyt outta da way.

You had best now learn how to accept defeat graciously, as ...wait for it Brown is about to concede, and declare Engerlund an Independent State within Engerlund!

U P Urs Pr ik
32

,

04/09/2008 06:17:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
33

,

04/09/2008 06:21:57
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
34

,

04/09/2008 06:23:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
35

,

04/09/2008 06:25:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
36

,

04/09/2008 06:28:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
37

,

04/09/2008 06:36:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
38

Bryce Curdy,

04/09/2008 07:08:18
The question that all the spongers rubbing their hands in glee at the prospect of LIT need to answer is why should someone else pay for your bin to be emptied when you can afford to pay? Where does redistribution end? Next people will be charged different amounts for the same loaf of bread at the supermarket. I accept the council tax is flawed but LIT is terrifying. People will just move to England. When the tories cut higher rate income tax, revenues actually increased. This is a fact that those who believe in the politics of envy constantly ignore.
39

,

04/09/2008 07:32:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
40

BIG EYE,

Paisley 04/09/2008 07:36:55
I don't know what is going on.

The standards of scaremongering against the SNP are slipping very badly. So far today the SNP introducing LIT means
1. It will be a disaster for poor people who are currently protected by the council tax.

2.Scots who want LIT (about 75%) according to the polls are "greedy". (Old argument recycled to the time oil was discovered).

3. LIT is an SNP bluff which cannot get a majority in the Parliament (remember the budget)

4.Scotland will empty as people move to England to stay loyal to the popular council tax.

5. LIT is unworkable as employers have lost the ability to change a person's tax code.

6. Everyone will change from PAYE to dividend income (a particularly stupid move as dividend income is taxed at a considerably higher rate than PAYE on the first £40,000 (approx) of taxable income. Therefore any such move would COST more than it would save)

Come on Unionists you must be able to do better than this!
41

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 04/09/2008 08:05:24
If this is SNP flagship policy then we are all sunk.

Why bother creating wealth if you are then taxed more than the lazy swine who don't?

SS Scotland is heading for the rocks under one-eyed Shrek and his band of the blind.
42

MacGillicuddy,

04/09/2008 08:15:42
Stick to your plans Eck. Council Tax is iniquitous. LIT is MUCH fairer, based on ability to pay. Why should I as a pensioner have to give up my home in order to be to afford a crippling property tax?
43

Scotland to prosper...,

04/09/2008 08:21:27
What's fairer than a tax that is based on you ability to pay?

I hear alot of negative commenting on LIT but very little in the way of an alternative. I can guess that the majority of people agruing against LIT are in the top x% of earners in Scotland.

We all need to pay tax, LIT reflects ones ability to pay, the council tax does not. LIT is proportional, a fair tax....if there is such a thing!

44

Linda,

Edinburgh 04/09/2008 08:33:00
# 65

You obviously don't understand what progressive taxation means. If you earn more you pay more if you earn less you are taxed. The Rich are not subsidising the poor they are merely paying their share.

Also the more money in the pockets of the "great unwashed" will result in more money in the economy and more opportunities for business to prosper.
45

Darien,

Panama 04/09/2008 08:33:43
Lets hope for an early UK Gen Election, as the UK economy collapses further, and Brown et al are left with no other option as NewLab implodes. As Tory and NewLab are both now unelectable in Scotland, that could give the SNP a majority of Scottish MP's at Westminster and a mandate to secure independence.
46

Doh,

04/09/2008 08:41:13


Good to see the SNP arguing for LIT, I hope a few Labour MSPs break ranks and vote for a tax based on the ability to pay.

Not surprised by Labours opposition but disappointed in the Greens.

Labour used to believe in fairnes and social justice but not any more. They really are just another conservative party, afraidof progress.
47

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 04/09/2008 08:43:17
LIT will only work and be acceptable if applied throughout the whole of the UK at the same time. We know the SNP can't deliver that so it leaves the LibDems to explain it properly to the whole country at the next election. At that moment the population will realise the genuine benefits of it and the local accountablity that brings - thats real devolution in practice. The revolution contuinues unabated!
48

Salmond Rushdie,

04/09/2008 08:55:01
#71

The no. of SNP MP's at Westminster doesn't mean anything towards independence - it is the people of Scotland will vote on it. If the referendum question includes the question on whether the Scottish Government should be given increased powers of devolution, I feel the majority of Scots will go for that over full independence. At the end of the day, all of this will come down to what question/s are asked? Conversely, if it is a straight yes/no vote, the SNP could fair very well and independence could arrive. Don't forget the polls still show the majority of Scots either disagree with independence or remain to be convinced.

LIT by definition has to be a fairer tax than the Council Tax. Salmond is right to seek a change but he has made a pig's ear of convincing people that it has been properly appraised and costed. I feel the SNP have clearly not properly appraised the financial reality of implemeting the tax. For example, under independence, what will the rate of LIT be with no Scottish Block Grant and Council Tax Rebate coming in from Westminster? After all, it will take a couple of years to get the bill through, for PAYE's to be altered, for govt to decide whether it is Inland Revenue or Scottish Govt who collects it etc. The referendum will then arrive. Salmond to date points the finger at Westminster and constantly blames them for all of Scotland's woes. But his current LIT proposal is reliant on Westminster providing the Council Tax Rebate.
49

Salmond Rushdie,

04/09/2008 08:55:59
Sorry - I meant #69
50

EnglishHighlander,

04/09/2008 09:28:26
This is the poll-tax in another guise.

This time, you won't receive a bill through your letter box, it will come out of your pay packet.

Great!

Why the hell should a household with 1 working person in it pay just as much council tax as the household next door with 4 working people in it?

Bring it on!

Oh, and I'm fed up with my "friends" in England reminding me of how England subsides Scotland in just about everything!!!!!

Bitter jealousy!
51

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/09/2008 09:35:02
Here we go again.

The ONLY reason that the majority of folk will be better off under the SNP's 3% flat rate LIT is that it is packaged up with a massive £750m tax cut. If it was to try to recoup the same revenues at CT then it would have to be st at at least 4.5% which would mean a majority paying MORE.

So if the SNP government can afford the tax cut, why not just make the tax cut? Inject £750 million a year into local government and enable councils to cut their CT rates by hundreds of pounds per household.

The point is it is dishonest to say that it is the LIT which will reduce the local tax burden on folk. It isn't. It's the tax cut that will do this, and LIT has nothing whatsoever to do with it.
52

tommy M,

04/09/2008 10:02:02
Interesting use of emotive language in this piece.Looks like more subliminal anti snp rot.

The only "ignoring" that has been done has been by labour, who have ignored the needs of the Scots for decades.
53

David Akers,

Edinburgh 04/09/2008 10:10:54
Does Mr Salmond not remember what maggie done to us Scottish, she invented the pole tax, and decided that Scotland was the correct place to try it out it ended up a shambles and the Tories did give in to the public, will he put his thoughts forwards to the Scottish public,before he makes a fool of himself, and if he thinks back the pole tax is what led to the defeat of the Tories
54

Ronaldo Stuffed Everyone,

04/09/2008 10:25:59
#78 I speak as a confirmed Nationalist. Salmond has been a huge dissapointment so far. By following populist policies he may have papered over the huge ccracks left by Labour but he has done precisely zero to develop Scotland. Where is the investemnt in small business, our youth, rural communities, deprived areas etc. The contrast with the success of Ireland in attracting invesment could not be greater. Scotland needs new vision not a raft of measures designed to boost Salmond's ego.
55

noswod,

Honestus 04/09/2008 10:27:25
Theres a wee bit of financial symetary about the £400m the English treasury will withold if LIT (local income tax) The £400m just about equates to the £300-£500 saving per family that Salmond expects LIT to give. The idea of a LIT is good but it is political suicide for Salmond(nee Thatcher) Obviously he calculates that he can use it as a cause celbre in an Independence vote but thta wouldn't get back the subsidy that the Treasury are giving us. I say we should keep taking the money from England that is paying for free parking at hospitals, higher hospital spending, free old folks care, no tuiton fees, free perscriptions and much higher council spending than in England. Sometimes you have to realise you are on to a good thing thing and keep your mouth shut about a romantic notion of creating a divided and uneconomic state of 5 million, bank the cash.
56

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 04/09/2008 10:38:22
#75 Duncan

A general tax cut would be totally un-targetted. Your thinking is obviously as woolly as Brown's was when he ditched the 10p tax band.
57

subrosa,

04/09/2008 10:39:49
# 78

The reduction in small business tax has made a great difference to me hasn't it you?

How long did it take for Ireland to achieve inward investment? It was definitely more than 19 months.
58

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 04/09/2008 10:40:41
#78 Ronaldo

I think most people can spot a unionist troll when they see one.
59

daveserviceman,

edinburgh 04/09/2008 10:45:57
I suggest all you people on here who think it will be great having the council taxed changed for a higher rated system should look at the european law directive on local government finance, it is illegal to change the the local government finance by changing one kind of tax for another without it being passed by the European parliament. Remeber no matter where we live in the UK we are controlled by Brussels and European law thats what you have all voted for. so parliments have to obey brussels and scotland is not exempt
60

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/09/2008 10:53:00
#80 Oh I see - the LIT would target the tax cut so that it applied to the very richest people in society - who don't pay income tax and therefore would end up paying no local tax at all. The poorest people already pay no council tax, so they would be largely unaffected. Rich pensioners would get richer, poor pensioners' circumstances would be unchanged.

Is this the targeting you're talking about? Tartan Tories indeed!
61

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/09/2008 10:58:15
#80 Furthermore it would be perfectly possible to target a tax cut if the government wanted to, through the mechanism of council tax. To suggest that LIT is the only mechanism for targeting a tax cut is ludicrous.
62

John S,

04/09/2008 11:03:12
Local Income Tax calculator published by Glasgow City Council.
Glasgow City Council has published an online Local Income Tax calculator to allow people to work out whether they would be better or worse off if the controversial tax system were introduced.19 May 2008. http://tinyurl.com/5vcfgf

63

Shenachy,

South Queensferry 04/09/2008 11:10:45
The Scottish Political(?) Editor writes, "But in doing so, Mr Salmond was effectively ignoring the results of his own government's consultation process, which has already revealed massive and widespread opposition to the tax plans." Perhaps a need for the said political editor to have a refresher course in the use of our language and basic maths? If 75% to 80% of people in Scotland support LIT, where does this MASSIVE and WIDESPREAD opposition come from? Answer - a few politically biased business interests and washed out trade union bodies! And if a political editor cannot see the big picture being played out by a very clever politician, he should hang up his pencil.
64

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/09/2008 11:14:05
#86 Just a clarification: this calculator allows people to work out whether they would be better or worse off if the LIT were introduced AT A 3% RATE. The LIT itself is not a money-saving system - it is the rate of tax - incorporating a £750m shortfall in revenues - that results in savings for many taxpayers.

I would add that I consider it ridiculous in the extreme that for myself and my partner, who enjoy a relatively high joint income more than double the Scottish average, the 3% LIT rate would leave our local tax burden almost completely unchanged.

The £750m has to be found somewhere.
65

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/09/2008 11:15:16
#87 On what basis do you claim that "75% to 80% of people in Scotland support LIT"?
66

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 04/09/2008 11:37:25
#89 - och, they're all convinced that they won by a huge landslide in May 2007, which gives them a mandate from the Scottish people for all their mad ideas.

Of course the reality is that fewer than 1 in 6 of Scottish voters actually voted SNP, they only won by a sliver over a deeply unpopular and discredited Scottish Labour and their minority administration has little real power to do anything which requires the consent of the Scottish Parliament.

But the Gnats are about as comfortable with reality as they are with adding up their sums.
67

guenevere,

04/09/2008 11:49:23
Salmond is the most arrogant man alive,who the hell does he think he is,it's about time someone brought him down a peg or two.
68

guenevere,

04/09/2008 12:03:35
Scotland’s annual subsidy from England has shot up to a record £2,200 a head – doubling since Labour came into power in 1997. Scotland in a rare club of countries where state spending is more than half of the entire economy. Only £34 billion was generated in tax. The remaining £11.3 billion was subsidised by English taxpayers. Enough! why should the people of england work to support salmond and his crazy ideas.
69

guenevere,

04/09/2008 12:04:45
85. That's no surprise,he's a sh-t a--e!
70

we the people,

04/09/2008 12:15:07
the reporting of this issue has been shoddy.
a good policy though, originally proposed by the SSP.
Of course the CBI etc are against it they are the bosses's trade union and are therefore against anything that makes the tax system more equitable.
Kathy J sounded foolish in parliament
71

donald,

glasgow 04/09/2008 12:15:57
Three Stooges bring the House down.
72

Miss H,

04/09/2008 12:35:14
86 I've already told you - it's the union dividend. You must continue to pay it to us or we will flounce out of the Union in a huff.

£2,200 isn't enough by the way - I want £5000. That's the cost of independence apparently so we should all get a £5000 union dividend to make us stay.

You know it makes sense.
73

GM,

04/09/2008 13:07:54
Will be interesting to see how this all pans out -

SNP commit to one of their flagship manifesto promises (and get criticised for it!!)

Labour in particular stand the risk of political suicide by objecting fully to the proposal.



ah yes, another win/win situation for the SNP!!!

hahahahaha brilliant!
74

JoeMiddleton,

Edinburgh 04/09/2008 13:13:26
The Scotsman has the cheek to print its prospectus from 1816 which pledges "impartiality and fairness", "first desire to be honest, second to be useful", "the requisites for the task are only good sense, courage and industry"

What a lot of boll*cks given the front page headline today and this story. No wonder the Government doesn't listen to your biased rubbish.
75

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 04/09/2008 13:16:41
Thatcher's poll tax failed. Salmond's poll tax will fail.
76

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 04/09/2008 13:19:13
Someone should ask Salmond when he last met Madsen Pirie. The truth will out.
77

guenevere,

04/09/2008 13:32:45
91.Please do! English people have had ENOUGH! either Cameron brings in tax raising powers,or you can fook off with Englands blessing.
78

guenevere,

04/09/2008 13:55:00
92. Hardly! Salmond is about to go head to head with the powers that be,salmond will be the loser!
79

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 04/09/2008 14:07:32
#76 Duncan

Childish post.
80

The west awake,

Argyll 04/09/2008 14:12:55
Duncan -
"The ONLY reason that the majority of folk will be better off under the SNP's 3% flat rate LIT is that it is packaged up with a massive £750m tax cut. If it was to try to recoup the same revenues at CT then it would have to be st at at least 4.5% which would mean a majority paying MORE."

- Not so. According to the SNP, who I trust more than the UK Labour Party, £400m will rightly be made up from the money Scotland currently gets as a bribe to retain the hated Labour/Tory Council Tax (if its ours now it should be ours after). The rest, (£280m not £350m btw) will be made up from savings in Council services, (such as their excellent recent move to consolidate and consequently lower the public sector energy bill)
I will give you the point that ultra rich people with zero income would appear to be gaining through this, however I wonder how much money this represents (extremely small sum?) and suggest we cannot sacrifice a fairer taxation system for the vast majority in order to combat this side-issue about a tiny minority. I'm sure the SNP will figure out some other way to get our money back from these ultra-rich (probably Labour Party doners).
81

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 04/09/2008 14:20:11
What a load of unionist trolls on here today.

They must be worried !
82

guenevere,

04/09/2008 14:28:59
106. Why would we be worried? Salmond is about to commit political suicide.
83

Lady Golightly,

04/09/2008 14:35:40
102 said

"£400m will rightly be made up from the money Scotland currently gets as a bribe to retain the hated Labour/Tory Council Tax"


Sorry this doesn't make sense. If you're being paid this money as a bribe to keep the Council Tax(CT) and then you stop having the CT why should they continue to bribe you? Surely the money will stop once the bribe is no longer necessary.
84

guenevere,

04/09/2008 14:43:26
109.Indeed,therefore salmond will have a £400 million deficit,and England will not bail him out this time!
85

Alan B,

04/09/2008 14:48:20
#Duncan

Have you noticed that all parties other than labour support scotland retaining the money from the council rebate.

The tory spokesman on newsnight said that labour were playing silly party political tactical games by trying to withhold scotlands money. And they favour retaining council tax along with their sister party.
86

8/10 Cats,

04/09/2008 14:50:01
Salmond is a big greasy flabby jobby.

Local income tax doesn't have a cap. Can't wait until the scrounging public workers start raping people up the bottom for limitless pots of cash for early retirement.

Hardest workers pay the most. Just think, a new tax on overtime that you have to work because you need the momney because your taxes are so high.

Who do you think will be first to locate their headquarters south of the border. (Because HQs tend to have all the high paying jobs.)
87

Alan B,

04/09/2008 14:50:10
#Lady Golightly

Why do all the other parties support scotland maintain the monies from the council tax rabate other than labour?

What is the point in labour creating a scottish parliament giving it powers over changing something like local government taxation and then withdrawing money from scotland for using that power?
88

Kimg Arthur,

04/09/2008 14:54:26
I have to say that I think Scotland has things pretty good. You are lucky to have the SNP - we here in England are stuck with the Labour Party, a poor NHS and a terrible education system.
89

Lady Golightly,

04/09/2008 14:55:22
Alan B *113

Is the 400 million a bribe to retain Council tax as stated by poster 102?

If it is I don't understand why Labour will carry on paying it if there is no longer a Council Tax.

I think the SNP should make sure that this money will still be forthcoming if they go ahead with LIT, otherwise it seems a foolhardy option to say the least.

Its no good just saying what Labour should do, we need to know what they will do.

90

Kimg Arthur,

04/09/2008 14:56:33
I also think that we here in England are in awe of the way that you have taken a budget cut from the Labour Party and made more out of it than the previous Labour Party Government did - that is plain and simple good management! I think alot of English people are really quite jealous.
91

Kimg Arthur,

04/09/2008 15:04:08
Scotland is a bit like Australia really - I think many people are amazed that you guys haven't voted for independence yet (and why Australia hasn't ditched the monarchy)...devolution has delivered you so many benefits (I think all political parties agree on this point), so it is logical that an extention of devolution.....ie, all the way to complete independence, would be highly successful. I don't think any right thinking person here in England would begrudge you taking that path.
92

Alan B,

04/09/2008 15:05:06
#Lady Golightly

Do not really follow your post?

"Its no good just saying what Labour should do, we need to know what they will do."

What? We know what all the parties would do with regard to council tax rebate. Only labour wants to withhold the money. But even here Jamieson a leadership candidate says they should not. And Gray had to do a uturn when he announced he would abolish council tax.

I would not call council tax rebate a bribe but more a threat from labour. Labour still have not come to terms with losing the election.

Yes it would be silly to introduce LIT without the money from council tax rebate but labour are isolated on this issue. Labour have also put themselves in the ridiculous situation of creating a sp with powers to vary the method of local government taxation, but then will try to punish the sp if it does not choose the same method as westminster. That is barmy.
93

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/09/2008 15:18:43
#116 What budget cut is that then? You mean the tenth successive above-inflation increase in the block grant? Stop peddling lies.
94

The west awake,

Argyll 04/09/2008 15:23:01
Lady G -
"Sorry this doesn't make sense. If you're being paid this money as a bribe to keep the Council Tax(CT) and then you stop having the CT why should they continue to bribe you? Surely the money will stop once the bribe is no longer necessary. "

It makes sense in the crazy system that is the formula whereby Scotland gets its pocket money from Westminster. As a nationalist I hope you forgive me for not trying to defend that, but the SNPs position is that Holyrood/Scotland gets £Xbnpa which includes the £400m. If we decide to do things different then Scotland still should get X, because thats how much is needed to run Holyrood/Scotland.
Labours position is that you'll get X as long as you run it the Labour way, - typical, crude bully-boy tactics from a Govt who can't handle the SNP and an independent minded Holyrood. They are too used to Scottish Labour Uncle Tam's who gave them no trouble and did as they were telt.
How much we in Scotland like this attitude can be seen in Glasgow East and will be seen in Glenrothes and in the upcoming referendum in 2010.
For me of course the £400m is arguing how many angels can dance on a pin, - we should make our own money and spend our own money - care to argue against that?
95

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/09/2008 15:28:12
Alan B, you have misrepresented this before and you continue to do so, never mind how many times it is explained to you. This is tiresome.

There are several down sides to any local income tax. The homogenisation of tax models into income-based schemes rather than mixed property/land/income means that tax avoidance becomes far easier, and the overall equity of the tax system decreases. Those who are able to avoid paying income tax, who tend to be the richest people, will now not make any contribution to local services at all.

But then if we look specifically at the SNP's proposals, they pile even more problems in. Firstly, this isn't a local tax at all - it's a national tax, a single rate collected on a national basis and distributed to councils by the national government. This removes fiscal responsibility from local authorities in one fell swoop, leading to a major democratic deficit in local politics.

Secondly, a 3% rate accrues far too little revenue. It is ludicrous to move to a progressive tax model and at the same time require a rebate system to prop it up. In a progressive tax system, a rebate supports the wealthiest, not the poorest! The poorest are already paying nothing. Pour an extra £400m in and that is reducing the bills of the richest people. How can the SNP - or anyone - justify that while claiming to be introducing progressive taxation?

It boggles the mind.
96

The Tin Man,

04/09/2008 15:58:54
Oh well, if LIT is voted-in, it looks like it would start around 2011, and the government can say that they have introduced a tax-cut for the next election, before the 3% rate rises to more realistic levels, or your library closes.

If it is not voted-in, they can say that the other party's scuppered everyone's chances of a tax cut.

Win-win.
97

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/09/2008 16:17:31
#122 Indeed. Cynical, deceitful, and typical of the SNP.
98

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 04/09/2008 16:21:18
#107 Ken Wyles-Thenoux

You are one up on me. Unlike you, I didn't know that Jobcentres had pcs for public use, not having been in one. I trust the same cannot be said of you.
99

Kimg Arthur,

04/09/2008 16:21:35
I'm not talking about sticking objects up a poo-pipe, unlike some unnatural people. I'm talking about government cuts to the block grant. Had Labour got in, Scotland would have receieved more more (which it clearly deserves). Us English are undoubtedly living off Scottish oil...although, the billions in revenue spread amongst the population of the UK obviously doesn't have anything like the effect it would have across the population of Scotland. Simple.
100

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 04/09/2008 16:22:45
#108 guenevere

Is that right?

Are you actually believing your own propaganda?
101

Kimg Arthur,

04/09/2008 16:24:37
I wish duncan in edinburgh would come down from his high horse and stop banging on about the "The homogenisation of tax models into income-based schemes" - he really has it on the brain. Unable to think for himself.