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Local income tax 'could lead young to break contract of welfare state'



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Published Date:
11 March 2008
THE SNP's plans to scrap council tax in favour of a local income tax will hit young people and could lead future generations to "break the contract" of the welfare state, a leading academic has warned.
David Bell, professor of economics at Stirling University, also warns that levying more tax on income could undermine efforts to encourage business growth in Scotland.

Writing in The Scotsman today, Prof Bell raises concerns about the impact the tax would have on the younger generation, which already has mounting debts and is struggling to get on the property ladder.

He claims the plans would put a severe strain on the assumption that younger workers will pay for the costs of the older generation, often referred to as the "intergenerational contract".

Prof Bell also claims there is international evidence that higher income taxes deter workers – particularly women – from supplying labour, and it is the employers who pick up the bill when income tax is increased.

He writes: "The switch from council tax to a local income tax will benefit the old at the expense of the young. It is the young who are the main contributors to income tax revenues.

"Many of the young are struggling with student debt, family responsibilities, have little chance of finding a defined-benefit pension and little hope of getting on the housing ladder.

"If the young see the tax system as being unfair, they may be minded to break this contract, which would be dangerous for economic stability."

His comments came as the SNP and Liberal Democrats continued talks on their shared aim of replacing the council tax with a local income tax.

John Swinney, the finance secretary, is expected to launch the Scottish Government's consultation on the issue today.

Speaking to The Scotsman last night, Prof Bell explained that, with the ageing population putting extra demands on local services, the make-up of the welfare state may change and the elderly may be forced to work longer or accept lower pensions.

In his article, he points out that, in 20 years, the number of pensioners will have increased by 50 per cent and the number aged 75 and over by 70 per cent.

He explained: "At some point younger people might say, 'We are not prepared to accept paying higher and higher taxes for older people'. Future generations may feel unwilling to pay towards the welfare state."

Prof Bell also said more information should be gathered on the effects of a local income tax on workers and firms before radically changing Scotland's tax structure.

In his article, he claims there is evidence from Denmark showing the burden of labour taxes may be shifted on to the employer.

"This means it is not employees who ultimately pay when income tax is increased, but employers pick up the costs rather than lose workers," he writes. "The result is a fall in profits. This is vitally important if we are striving to attract and retain businesses in Scotland and promote economic growth."

The SNP is committed to a local income tax set centrally at 3p. Lib Dems favour a local income tax which is set by local authorities.

Scottish Labour is opposed to the plans and leader Wendy Alexander has warned of "disastrous consequences" for pensioners and households with two or more earners.

David Lonsdale, assistant director CBI Scotland, said there were "serious misgivings" about local income tax, as there were fears it would be a costly administrative headache for Scottish firms and UK or international businesses operating in Scotland.

A Scottish Government spokesman said Prof Bell's comments "ignored the reality that the vast majority of households will be better off under our proposals".

A KEY ISSUE AT THE BALLOT BAX

REFORM of local taxation was one of the key issues in the Holyrood election.

The SNP said it would scrap council tax and introduce a local tax system based on the ability to pay. The local tax, it claims, will be fairer and lower than what the vast majority of people pay in council tax.

A local income tax would work in much the same way as national income tax. The SNP proposal will set a rate of 3p on earned income. By taxing only the money you earn, the SNP says the proposals will not eat into the hard-earned savings of pensioners or lower-income families. It is claimed that more than 500,000 pensioners – those who at present pay no income tax – will pay nothing under the SNP's local tax system.

Critics argue the SNP's plans to scrap council tax are ill-conceived and a local income tax would present more red tape for Scottish firms, as well as international companies with operations north of the Border.

The full article contains 802 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

TommyKaye,

UK 11/03/2008 00:14:29
Q. Which party appoints a double-barreled, privately educated, graduate of Oxford and Stanford, ex-McKinsey turned City grandee and co-author of "The New Capitalists" as chief?

A. David Pitt-Watson of City fund managers Hermes is the new general secretary of the Labour Party.

He also gave £2,500 to Gordon's leadership non-campaign.

UPDATE : If he has been brought in to clean-up Labour's finances post the Abrahams scandal this will be tricky. Chris Grayling points out that he was a secret just-below-the-£1000 reporting threshold donor of £990 to Wendy Alexander’s campaign. He was with Peter Watt, the disgraced former Secretary-General of the Labour Party, director of a fund which has donated £110,000 to the Labour Party and a leading figure in an unincorporated association (LFIG) which has given hundreds of thousands of pounds to the Labour Party without revealing the original sources of funds - just like the Tory supporting Midlands Industrial Council. Does that fill you full of confidence that Gordon really means to be more transparent and straight about political funding?

2

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 00:16:26
I doubt it will make a difference, call it,
Council Tax!
Call it,
Poll Tax!
Call it,
Rates!
Call it,
Father Christmas!
Call it,
What you want!

We wait with anticipation, but know the money has to come from somewhere, in all I like this one, but £5.00+ per gallon at the pumps, is a ....'rip-off'!
3

Steve,

Bo'ness 11/03/2008 00:31:29
Typical one sided anti-SNP crap, dressed up as news.
Same Scotsman, different day.
4

Furchrissake,

11/03/2008 00:31:42
I'm starting to think that this local income tax is a bit of a con. How will the current rebate system for the pensioners, unemployed, students etc. be covered?

And how will the contribution from the non-earning wealthy who live off inherited wealth, investments etc. be collected - and will it be 3p?

And, as for the libdems plan for local authorities setting the level on tax, this will undoubtedly create greater inequality in society with places like Aberdeenshire and Edinburgh cleaning up in the income stakes, at the expense of smaller,rural areas.

Will the local community be canvassed on the services available for their hard-earned cash?

I also think Prof. Bell is right. Youngsters on minimum wage should not be paying this tax when there are high-earners who could easily be paying a higher rate.

Also, offshore contractors, for example, would they have to operate different systems for every one - for staff from all over Scotland, or would it all go into the Aberdeen pot. Staff from England etc. would also have different tax bands - sounds chaotic to me.
5

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 11/03/2008 00:45:17
It seems some here are feeling the pressure of trying to alibi a council tax that is almost universaly detested.

Again the SNP (and the LibDems to a lesser extent) have played a blinder on the opposition. If Labour opposes LIT, they pay a political price. If Westminster refused to implement LIT when passed by Holyrood( it is a devolved matter), I would not be surprised if Salmond urges Holyrood to dissolve the parliament and put the issue before the Scottish electorate.

It would be a very effective way to crush the Scottish Labour group and would also deal a near death blow to Westminster Labour either prior to the EU elections or prior to the Westminster vote.

The SNP has nothing to lose in pushing this forward. The LibDems see this as an opportunity to cut the apron strings with Labour and reclaim some of their past vote. The Tories can continue to push Labour into opposing the LIT. Thier position may hurt a wee bit in Scotland but a fatal blow to Labour would certainly help the Westminster Tories.

Look for a Labour meltdown as this issue evolves. It would not surprise me if Labour MSP's in marginals broke with the party and supported LIT.
6

Furchrissake,

11/03/2008 00:51:47
8# I am against council tax, but I'm still not sure about this LIT

How, for example, will the wealthy pay? - those who are not in the income tax system? And if they do pay, will they pay the same as a young lad on minimum wage?
7

subrosa,

11/03/2008 00:58:07
Some people just don't seem to get the basics of LIT. It is an earnings based local tax, got it? Also, for those who aren't of the age to receive a pension from working for 40 years, I can assure you the pension is also taxed and classed as income.

What has irked me all my working life is that I've paid double tax to receive my pension. I paid tax on it when I was working and now again to receive my own savings back as pension income. Can't complain though because all PAYE workers were in the same boat.

So the young won't want to support the elderly? I think, if a few pensioners had a wee word in their ears (about how time flies etc) that opinion could be changed speedily.
8

J J MAROONER,

11/03/2008 01:05:06
10#

Hello Subrosa how are you this morning?

9

Navvy,

11/03/2008 01:10:10
Scotland should take a look at the Provident Funds which the British introduced into Malaysia and Singapore before independence.

Both employees and employers make large contributions. The funds can be used for hospital bills and have retirement and other sections within the fund they also have top up medical insurance at affordable rates. In the hospitals the wealthier subsidise the poorer through opting for twin and single rooms while the less well off "slum" it in 6 bed wards - how many of our hospitals have so few beds in a ward?

The contributions to the fund can also be used to pay your mortgage and the average couple do not need to use any of their net pay for their mortgage. 85% of Singaporeans own or are buying their homes. There are schemes to release capital from the fund for retirement

AND, wait for it, the fund is in your own name and is NOT treated as income.

We Brits set up this scheme in our colonies but stuck with our poor NI scheme at home. How daft can you get?
10

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 01:53:07
clarry @#14,
"BTW Saw a four by four vehicle, with laughing PC, with flash lights going, turning into the PC's garage. No emergency just having a laugh."

'Aye' they must of been..'laughing' about their stocks of,
'Dodgy Diesel' and how it costs only £1.00 per gallon on the 'Black-Market'..:-))
11

Mark Renton,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 04:36:57
David Bell can make a headline in The Scotman? What a freaking joke!
12

Jingling Geordie,

Sunshine on Leith 11/03/2008 06:20:12
"If the young see this system as being unfair" writes Prof Bell.......no mention of the grossly unfair subsidy of Public Sector pensions which include his own.
Recent Freedom of Information Act research shows that 20% of what we pay in council tax goes to prop up their employees pensions.
Civil Service pensions also, still final salaried, retire at 60 with 50% of their earnings as a pension.
This is the real burden on the economy, these pensions are unaffected by stock market crashes as they are paid directly from tax PAYE or otherwise and are as secure as the Rock of Gibraltar.
If I am to subsidise anyone's pension then let it be my own.
13

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 11/03/2008 06:57:43
All taxes on income are unfair. Tax wealth, not hard work.
14

Drum Major,

Brisbane, Australia 11/03/2008 07:11:27
So long as everyone pays the same % tax once over a certain thresshold income tax is fair. Rates to maintain services provided to properties is fair. Pensioners have been paying taxes all their working life. Those taxes paid the pensions of the pensioners of those days. Young ones keep paying with the knowledge that they will get their pension in due course paid by their children's and grandchildren's generation. Death & taxes the absolute guarantees of life.
15

nabodican,

Rural Scotland 11/03/2008 07:19:09
#6 Raises an interesting point about offshore workers.
It will be a nightmare for Scottish based offshore companies who's workers come from all over the UK with a good few thrown in from all over the world.
It should be remembered that future pensioners have already paid their whack to justify their pension. It is government mismanagement, particularly labour that has caused any shortfall in funding.
16

madrab,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 07:26:35
Breaking news in the Scotsman

SNP policy to cause the end of life on earth.
17

donald,

glasgow 11/03/2008 07:34:17
Professor talks mince.
18

Grahamski,

Falkirk 11/03/2008 07:46:36
This issue could well be the SNP's downfall. They trumpet that 88% of the population support them on LIT. I suspect they are rather wide of the mark on their level of support. The figure of thruppence in the pound sounds modest enough but when the experts start pouring scorn on their sums and hiking it to the more believable 5p or even 6p how keen do you think the family with multiple wage earners will be? Remember that in opinion polls everybody says they want fairness and are willing to pay more to help the needy. At the ballot box people tend to vote for themselves.
This will unravel very quickly for the nationalists. Their figures are obviously muddled, they've included monies that they have already been warned isn't theirs to count on. Their collection method apparently is HMRC, the only problem is that they haven't even had the decency to discuss this with HMRC. This is a shambles of the SNP's own making and their belligerent girning about how it's England's fault is fooling no-one.
19

rogerB,

Asia 11/03/2008 07:52:01
"If the young see the tax system as being unfair, they may be minded to break this contract, which would be dangerous for economic stability."

Seditious statement really and from an educator of minds? Short of revolution or tax evasion the young would have to leave the Country get around the contract. It was reported that a high percentage of young Scots do already.....but I venture they are in search of wealth (wealth is not just cash) rather than lower taxes.

If tax revenue was wisely spent tax payers would not regard their payments as a penalty.

As to taxing wealth alone instead of a user pays tax approach, it is a non starter. Robin Hood had a good try but it does not generate much hard cash to contribute to public sector salaries...or those persons pensions.

The community, should pay for local services, businesses, home owners, young adults and pensioners too, should pay for local authority services. The problem is how much is fair and who can influence how the cash is well spent?

Neither inciting sedition nor complaining about party politics will help develop a fair system of sharing the cost of being one of the more fortunate nations on this planet.
20

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 07:53:50
Perhaps David Bell would care to explain why the Labour Party’s policy of increasing income tax by abolishing the 10% band, (hitting the lower paid proportionately more than the higher paid), is a more equitable policy than the SNP’s proposal to abolish council tax?

Or is it the case that Prof Bell is not in the business of making objective comments upon matters which reflect badly upon the Labour Party?

Is David Bell a known Labour Party member, supporter or donor?

21

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 08:07:18
#33

Not for the first time you appear rather misinformed regarding matters fiscal and Scottish.

The Inland Revenue (HMRC) were required to set up systems and procedures to collect the income tax raised by the ability of the then Scottish Executive to vary income tax by 3p in the pound, at the onset of devolution.

These systems and procedures have been in place for 10 years.

If you happen to be employed and pay PAYE, ask your payroll manager if this facility already exists on his or her’s payroll software.

The alleged difficulty in collecting this tax is a poor attempt by the cringing classes to deflect from the inherent fairness of the policy.
22

Duncan in Edinburgh,

11/03/2008 08:07:56
How can anyone take seriously a government which says of their reorganisation of local taxation that "the vast majority of households will be better off under our proposals"?

Seriously, can anyone explain this? If almost everyone is paying less money, how do we fund services? Where is the money going to magically arrive from?
23

McStumpy,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 08:13:26
What's wrong with academics? Having just read the nonsense on the History programme article, I now read this.

Local income tax is fair and transparent.

Poor little kiddies, having to pay their fair share like the rest of us. It's not right - don't worry, I'll keep paying through the nose on my council tax sdo that you can continue to enjoy your hedonistic lives. Sheeeesh.

Editor - you really do need to have a look at yourself. This is not news, this is another marginal academic spouting nonsense.

24

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 11/03/2008 08:14:01
The reason SNP wants to raise local income tax is that its supporters are mostly unemployed/unemployable and so won't be bothered.
25

Fairfax,

11/03/2008 08:14:33
rogerB (24): "Seditious statement really and from an educator of minds?"

Postulating the socioeconomic consequences of a tax policy is hardly sedition.

"Short of revolution or tax evasion the young would have to leave the Country get around the contract."

The latter may not be too difficult. There's another Country just to the south of Scotland that's doesn't plan to implement the LIT. That nation's capital has a GDP per capita exceeding Ireland's, pace the Celtic Tiger, so it's often been popular with young Scots. Introducing the LIT in Scotland might therefore be excellent news for your neighbours.
26

sceptic,

11/03/2008 08:16:09
Yep, this report proves conclusively that Prof Bell with his estimated total income of £170,000/A would be worse off with a local income tax. We can ignore his Labour Party connections as he would, surely, never allow those to interfere with his impartial and unbiased evaluation.
27

Bigwull,

edinburgh 11/03/2008 08:18:27
26
you are correct, this has been available since the creation of the Scottish Parliament, so thats PAYE workers sorted out, how this would be collected from self employed workers is another matter, would they just base their companies in england
28

Grahamski,

Falkirk 11/03/2008 08:19:29
#26
Just contacted my wages dept (just outside London) and as far as they are concerned there is no facility to collect this tax. But again, if you were slightly more fiscally aware you would know that this is a local government tax which is devolved so the responsibility for collection lies with Holyrood not HMRC.
Furthermore, the Scottish Executive have no authority over reserved matters like UK tax collection, but you being so aware of Scotland you will know that too.
As I said, this mess is of the SNP's own making. I suspect you'll see them wriggling out of yet another uncosted and unrealisable election promise, and how will they do it? Blame England, of course....
29

subrosa,

11/03/2008 08:23:17
# Good morning JJ. Fine thanks and pleased to see better weather. Your good self?

# 29 See you're on form and as acerbic as usual. Silly statement.
30

Iain's,

Barcelona 11/03/2008 08:25:34
Local income tax used to be both Tory and Liberal policy.

Surely if we have to pay council tax, it should be based on ability to pay. After all, that has always been the problem with poll tax. People who could not pay had to pay. It is the lesser of all the other evils.

Question. Why do I pay one tenth the council tax here in Spain that I paid in the UK? The services and everything are similar:

If you were not sheep, you would not be shorn!


31

Iain's,

Barcelona 11/03/2008 08:30:04
Dear Grahamski.

Your wages department are ignorant.

The system is all there. The tax rate will vary depending on your home post code. Collection is calculated per your tax code as at present.

That is the delight of the system, no gigantic failing government computer system to run it.

Of course that is why government does not want it. No Brown envelopes!
32

Duncan in Edinburgh,

11/03/2008 08:30:32
#33 I think the point is that the Scotland Act empowered the Scottish Parliament to vary the basic rate of tax by plus or minus 3%. So while you're right that this is a local tax, the SNP's plan is to use national tax law to implement it, and that law, and the means to implement it, is already in place.

Of course, you hardly need to be a political genius to see the problems that this strategy creates. 3% on the basic rate comes nowhere near raising the amount that council tax raises. So the SNP propose to raise the higher rate too, despite the Scottish Parliament not being competent to do so under the Scotland Act.

But then of course that doesn't raise enough money either, so the SNP propose to bolster those revenues with £400 million a year from the block grant. The net effect is to remove local fiscal accountability, and to introduce many of the problems that have been outlined in this article.

I think I've got this right, but I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm mistaken.
33

Derick fae Yell,

The Hoose 11/03/2008 08:31:45
Local Income Tax is SNP policy

SNP policies, as we know from the Hootsman, cause plagues of locusts, death of the firstborn, and the sun to explode.

LIT will cause the sun to explode. QED.

Incidentally, when LIT comes in, single people living in houses with spare rooms will be able to take lodgers and hence help the housing situation. Nae Cooncil Tax, nae single persons rebate = financial advantage in a lodger.
34

Duncan in Edinburgh,

11/03/2008 08:35:48
#38 Is there any evidence that the 25% single person's rebate was holding people back from taking in lodgers? I've never seen any. Please enlighten me.
35

Col DFS,

SW Scotland 11/03/2008 08:44:57
Current band D CTax is £118 per month where I live. At 3p in the pound taxation (3%) I would need to be earning £4,000 per month to pay the same rate under LIT. If I was earning £4000 per month I'd be more than happy.

For your average young person earning £800/month they would only by paying £24/month in LIT (as opposed to £100+). Which would you prefer.

What concerns me more is whether the LIT proposal will actually raise an equivalent amount for local government to actually function - any info on that.

The earlier comments on low income areas being losers under the proposals are well made. Currently CTax Benefit is effectively a central gov subsidy for low income areas. That would not apply with LIT.

36

SC,

Dundee 11/03/2008 08:48:31
Hi have misgivings about the LIT, but nothing I couldn't resolve in about 5 mins. We clearly haven't seen the full SNP hand as they will likely agree to a locally set rate.

But there are many positives that of course the Scotsman won't list:

- Overall reduction in taxation (£450m)
- End to Council Tax Benefit poverty trap for low earners - all will contribute in part to the services they consume (the £400m will be reinvested to bring down the overall cost for all)
- Reduced costs - no separate bureacracy to collect it

Here are my improvements:
- Upper threshold for contributions as we have for National Insurance - we don't want to scare off high-earning individuals who create the wealth
- Give local control to councils to set their own VAT rates too. This will encourage competition amongst councils to improve services, cut taxation and speed up planning.
37

Duncan in Edinburgh,

11/03/2008 08:49:15
#40 I think it is abundantly clear that there is no hope of raising the same amount of money from the SNP's current LIT proposals as is currently raised by Council Tax. Their own figures say so, their own plan to raid the block grant for £400m a year say so, but most of all, their own claim that the majority will be better off under this scheme should make it clear that it's pie in the sky.
38

Canning,

11/03/2008 08:50:50
Can someone explain to me how this is a "local" income tax when it is set at a nationla level? Sure then its just an increase in income tax.

Also #12 Carry states;
"Anyway most young folk want to rent until they decide where they want to be"

Is there any evidence for this? If so where because as a young person im looking to get onto the property market as soon as possible as it is the only way that im going to be able to clear a mortgage in time to invest in my pension.
39

scottishcoffindodgerno1,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 08:51:02
#33,what kind of planet do you live on.english company,
the answers in the name English.Of course they will spout that garbage.Scotland is in a alternative universe as far as their concerned
40

Duncan in Edinburgh,

11/03/2008 08:55:35
#44 A lot of Scots work, in Scotland, for England-based companies. It is interesting to observe that the use of the Scottish Parliament's tax varying powers will have cost implications across the UK.

It's also interesting to note that the Scotland Act provides that expenses incurred by the UK Treasury in implementing Scottish tax variations are passed back to Scottish Ministers.
41

scottishcoffindodgerno1,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 08:56:19
#43 you pay poll tax if own your home,pay income tax instead,poll tax gone, SIMPLE.Problem solved
42

boudica,

glasgow 11/03/2008 09:01:35

As with any Income Tax or whatever tax ./.You can be assured the Rich will avoided it as there will be a good few loopholes for them to use and abuse as they always do ...and it will be the poorest who once again suffer ..even on here there are some who come out with phrases such as we dont want to scare off the High Earners ..It seems we worry more that the Rich or well off keep their cash but the Poor or less well off can pay through the nose ..Why is that?
43

Duncan in Edinburgh,

11/03/2008 09:01:47
#46 Poll tax was a charge per person. Council tax is a charge per property. LIT is a return to a charge per person. The SNP's poll tax?
44

Number 6,

Germany 11/03/2008 09:09:52
So Bell thinks older people would benefit but Alexander shrieks that it will have "Disastorous consequences for Pensioners. For God's sake Labour , if
you are going to continue with these scare mongering
tactics, at least get your story consistent. What a shambles. As for Bells assumptions that scots "might "
this and "may" that, well they might not this and they might not that Prof.

As amatuerish as ever.

45

mr angry,

ayrshire 11/03/2008 09:14:43
#47 what garbage , every minute of every day is spent worrying about the poor , most of whom are not so poor, are working on the side or pissing it up against a wall. We absolutley need to look afte rthe people who make the wealth , they keep all the poor and wasters in their houses, pay for their fags and booze etc. Waken up dunderheid.
46

GP,

11/03/2008 09:14:49
9# well spotted.
The getout mostly for thiose self employed and business owners will be to ensure their income as prescribed by their accountants is low and thus they will be once again better off than those on low wages and PAYE. This is simply a con.
Why should we all pay 3p in the pound yet the services across Scotland will vary vastly?
Rethink boys rethink.
47

radical theologian,

california 11/03/2008 09:15:27
The trouble is a lot of people don't want to pay for anything at all. If everybody paid for what they get, and not for what other people want, it might be a lot fairer. I've always thought it is unfair that other people should be funding my kids education, for example, when all they need is their dustbins to be emptied.
48

Duncan in Edinburgh,

11/03/2008 09:19:52
#49 You are confused by the concept of two different people holding two different opinions that both disagree with the SNP? Is that because of your good/evil world view, where everything the SNP does is good, and everyone who disagrees must be a Labour supporter? Dear me.
49

shivago8,

livingston 11/03/2008 09:19:55
Mke a change for us old one,s getting hurt.
2 pensioners living in a house paying double water rates than four people living in a house.
2 pensioners paying double than what 4 wage earners living in a house.
Please get real
It does take a brain surgeon to realise that something is wrong here.
Govts are feared over council tax,wont touch it,frightened,wont even revalue houses that have been getting away with murder for years.
Why should my wife and I pay £2118 a year when big wage earners with 4 in a house pay half of that.
Dont tell the water board ,that we leave our taps running all day,we have to as we are paying double what big families are paying
50

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 09:21:03
48

Telling porkies again Duncan habitual or compulsory??
the Poll tax was a tax on registered voters LIT is a tax on The employed. The poll tax was taxing those with no income or means of support not even a place to live whereas the LIT only taxes those with the means to pay for it.
Do you ever get it right?? try supporting ideas that are NOT morally corrupt.
51

jdships,

11/03/2008 09:22:21
5 Steve

Suggest you read "Post 3"
Sums it up perfectly !!
52

CRAGman,

11/03/2008 09:26:20
I used to support a local income tax but what the SNP are proposing is certainly not local - rather it's nationally set. That means, re. theirt ability to set a budget total reflecting the needs of their areas, local authorities are being dictated to by the Scottish Parliament - which, by the way, constantly wants more power from Westminster but sucks up power all the time from local authorities. Holyrood, after a very shaky start, is now becoming more accepted as part of life here in Scotland. They shouldn't take their power trip too far, though - especially since, besides being dictatorial, the SNP's ideas would leave working folk a lot worse off (and at 3p in the pound lead to large cuts in local authority services).
53

Alan B,

11/03/2008 09:26:28
The article is just rubbish and i personally am not in favour of a local income tax. There are arguments for and against local income tax but "break contract of welfare state" is not one.

The aging population is an important issue. Unfortunately labour have made such a mess of it. Brown has ruined the pension system. Quite simply as people grow older we need to push up the retirement age. Pushing it up to 70 for both men and women should resolve the problem. The cake is being spread to thinly. (Final salary schemes have disappeared partly for this reason.)

Being flexible and allowing people over 60 to go part time. Looking at ways to address people is jobs that are difficult when someone is older. For instance police rather than early retirement could move into back office jobs.
54

Duncan in Edinburgh,

11/03/2008 09:27:10
#55 Oh dear. You're not going to discuss this are you, like usual you're just going to throw out statements ten to the dozen and ignore the crux of the argument.

Try responding, rationally, to #42. And try doing it without personal abuse.
55

Alan B,

11/03/2008 09:28:32
#48 Duncan

"Poll tax was a charge per person. Council tax is a charge per property. LIT is a return to a charge per person. The SNP's poll tax?"

Alternatively - Poll tax was regressive. Council tax is regressive. Support for council tax is a support for regressive taxation. Labour's poll tax? :)
56

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 09:30:34
45

"44 A lot of Scots work, in Scotland, for England-based companies. It is interesting to observe that the use of the Scottish Parliament's tax varying powers will have cost implications across the UK."

What the f*ck are you havering about ???????
This tax will affect INDIVIDUALS within Scotland not companies!!! it isnt a CORPORATION TAX its an INCOME tax. A LOCAL INCOME TAX!!!

"It's also interesting to note that the Scotland Act provides that expenses incurred by the UK Treasury in implementing Scottish tax variations are passed back to Scottish Ministers."

Oh well then we can use our NORTH SEA OIL REVENUES to pay any expenses due to the UK government cant we???
Or our national income taxes or NI contribution or our business taxes or our tourist income.

What are you on today???
57

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 09:34:18
59

Right back at you Duncan speil yer p*sh then avoid any further debate or facts which expose yours for the tripe they are. Are you actually going to tell us now that the POLL tax was not a TAX on registered voters??? and could in fact be inflicted on somebody registered to vote who had no income at all??????
Or are you going to do your usual and avoid this fact all together???
58

union member,

Glasgow 11/03/2008 09:36:32
Once again - how is a tax set by Holyrood and collected by Westminster a 'Local' income tax?

The Government proposals are simply more SNP centralisation of power to themselves.
59

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 09:40:15
42

The fact that the money raised by LIT will be less than the council tax actually supports the statement that most people would be better off dont you think?????
Or dont you believe most people would be better off paying less in taxes????
60

Duncan in Edinburgh,

11/03/2008 09:44:01
#60 Now that is a very fair point.

I would counter that Council Tax is made far less regressive by the Council Tax Rebate, which is means tested and ensures that those on low incomes pay either nothing or very little.

I'm all for progressive taxation. But there are structural problems with the SNP's version of LIT which cannot be overlooked.

1. It is a single rate, central tax - no fiscal accountability for local authorities. It should be set locally.

2. It does not raise enough money, and therefore needs to be propped up by the block grant. It should be set higher.

3. It fails to catch wealthy non-income tax payers. Only a property or land based tax can do this.
61

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 11/03/2008 09:46:10
Proff. Bell raises some valid points, although no tax system is perfect. And yes, it will be a tedious nightmare for firms that employ workers from across the UK. Yes, young people would have to subsidise pensioners who wish to continue living in large houses, and there will be less large houses available for those with a young family.

Anyway, I don't get the feeling that particularly much thought has been put into the workings of a central-local income tax, beyond the pary-political back-and-forth associated with getting it through parliament.
62

Duncan in Edinburgh,

11/03/2008 09:46:46
#61 All UK based companies with employees in Scotland will have additional payroll work if tax varying powers are used.

#62 Indeed the poll tax was a tax on registered voters. It was also an unfair tax.

Foulkes, please stop ranting. Can we please have a calm discussion today rather than your usual nonsense?
63

MAX A MILLION,

EDINBURGH 11/03/2008 09:47:44
I will be laughing all the way to the bank if they bring in a LIT, as a director of my own company who pays himself in divis, and lives in a band G property, I won't pay a penny !
Thanks Mr. Swinney, any other smart redistributive ideas ?!
64

commonsense,

On the same small planet as you. 11/03/2008 09:48:12
52#Radical Theologian
I assume your neighbours were educated by the system therefore your children have as much entitlement as them.
Also,if you didn't produce children, who is going to empty their bins or even perform hip operations on them later.Personally I feel that services should be payed for by everybody based on their ability to pay.
65

Miss H,

11/03/2008 09:49:17
There is a lot of truth in the argument that young people are being over-burdened but how Professor Bell identifies a 3p local income tax as the breaking point is odd.

Better to tackle graduate debt, increase affordable housing and improve access to affordable childcare - not just for the 2 year olds that Labour identifies as 'vulnerable' but for all working families.

Those are all SNP policies and the Scottish Government has made a start to reducing the burdens on young people. And of course the vast majority of young families will actually pay less local taxation under the SNP's proposal not more.
66

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 11/03/2008 09:49:33
#42 Duncan

Yes, exactly. Even the SNP admit they would be £450MM short with a 3% LIT rate. 3% is just a convienent figure for them.
67

Duncan in Edinburgh,

11/03/2008 09:49:34
#64 The point is that if we are paying less in tax - significantly less - then how do we maintain the same services? It isn't hard to grasp. If everyone is better off, then who is paying for the services we are all enjoying?

I would have thought it obvious that a replacement for Council Tax should aim to raise an equivalent amount of money, no?
68

Miss H,

11/03/2008 09:50:59
68 Government figures show that it would cost more money to pursue people in your position than would be gained in tax revenue. So it's not worth it.

69

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 11/03/2008 09:51:09
#68 MAX

Yep, if you run your own business, and have a good accountant, a LIT can easily be a personnal windfall.
70

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 09:51:17
65

If people were not paying too much council tax then there would be no rebate needed now would there???

1. Thank Christ for that.

2.Does not raise enough money for what??? every year local services are cut yet our tax is increaced for what???

3.Every tax system in the country fails to catch the wealthy our whole tax regime is designed to hit the middle income families the hardest including the COUNCIL TAX.
So no changes there then.
71

Number 6,

Germany 11/03/2008 09:53:02
#53 Duncan, trust you not to see anything wrong with the "Great leader" disagreeing with the "Expert".

Older people will be better off and it will have disasterous consequences for pensioners. So you are happy that there are 2 different views of the same policy coming from the Labour camp. Is this to cover all the bases on the housing schemes as Labour go door to door with this garbage.

read what bell has to say again, it's all maybe this , might that , could this. Worst case scenario each time
but of course with no facts to back him up, oh sorry ,
a study in Denmark. As usual, totally devoid of fact
or substance. You like that though , don't you.
72

Miss H,

11/03/2008 09:53:29
72 Although people would pay less more people would pay it. And collection rates for income tax are much better than collection rates for council tax. You would also make savings in reduced bureacracy both in council tax collection and processing council tax benefit claims.
73

Joe,

Martello Court 11/03/2008 09:55:00
No more taxes on the value of property? Sounds like high speed Toryism to me. The working families of tenants in deprived areas paying the same rate as company directors? I say SNP supporters should volunteer to pay more for this infliction.
74

Miss H,

11/03/2008 09:57:23
57 Under the current powers of devolution there is no way to introduce the form of LIT that you describe. If Scotland was independent we could have a LIT but just now we can't. So the issue is do you continue with council tax or try and find an interim solution which is fairer and costs less to administer?
75

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 09:58:28
67

Payroll work?? you mean they will have to type in an extra 3% onto the column within the pay statements for tax deductions???
I wonder how much that will be worth in overtime??

"#62 Indeed the poll tax was a tax on registered voters. It was also an unfair tax"

Then obviously it bears no resemblence to LIT so why did you try to make the comparrison??

71

You know its funny how the figure of 450million is being banded around as the shortfall figure when that figure is exactly what the UK government is holding out on. I do love political coincidences.

74

Unless of course you are caught out with IR35 and its peripheral legislation.
76

Duncan in Edinburgh,

11/03/2008 09:59:32
#75 You clearly don't understand what the rebate does. And it is orthogonal to the argument as to whether you consider councils to be efficient or services to be worth their money, since LIT will not help either issue.

As for not catching wealthy people, in fact that is one thing that a property or land tax does extremely well, far better than income taxes. Your argument that no tax is perfect is hardly a ringing endorsement of LIT. LIT is far less perfect than Council Tax in this regard, I assume you can at least acknowledge that?
77

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 11/03/2008 09:59:47
Are water and sewerage charges still going to be collected through the existing system?
78

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 11/03/2008 10:00:52
How is this a 'LOCAL' income tax - surely it is going to be NATIONAL is it not? So what theya re talking about is ANOTHER income tax, on top of the one we already have.

The truth is that in the UK we are the most over-taxed nation in the wold; income tax, VAT, Council tax, petrol tax and a thousand other stealth taxes introduced since NuLab came to power. Of course if your MPs and MSPs are on an average £160k expenses, employing their mums, their gay sons, their grannies and their mates mothers - you need a lot of cash.

If you add in the millions of people on the PAYROLL VOTE - working away in the hundreds of useless new quangos created by Blair & Brown - which alrgely produce nothing but words and paper - you need even more taxpayers cash.

Then of you add in benefits for the millions who are now on third-generation welfare, plus the millions of new immigrants - on benefits, translation costs, aids and TB treatment - then you need a lot of cash.

Its a fine old mess. New taxes will not solve it. Starting to simplify society wiould be a beginning. Sack all the quanocracy on their £50k salaries; sack all the MSPs - reduce the numbers of tiers of government.
79

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 10:02:06
72

We dont maintain the same services with tax increaces so whats the point in increacing them???
I have made this point a few times before. councils and other bodies which rely on funding will spend their funding to the max irrespective of how much you give them and then ask for more funding.
Everybody does it. If you spend less than your allocation then you are given less. It is that kind of management in local funding that needs to change not the rate of taxation.
80

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 10:03:41
83

The 3% will be ring fenced and allocated to local authorities or at least it should be.
81

Duncan in Edinburgh,

11/03/2008 10:04:15
#80 Ah, and we have finally arrived at the central lie.

The council tax rebate will not be withheld from anyone. It has always been paid directly to individuals in receipt of council tax bills who are assessed as being in need of benefit. It will continue to be so paid.

If the Scottish Government introduces an income tax then there will be no need for council tax rebate because the poor will no longer receive a tax bill, or will receive one commensurate with their income, automatically.

Instead of pretending that the answer is a £400m prop from the block grant, the SNP should be honest and say that the answer is an LIT rate of 5%, not 3%.
82

Miss H,

11/03/2008 10:04:22
78 Under council tax people on low incomes pay a higher proprtion of their income on council tax than the wealthy do. Taking UK figures local tax in the UK accounts for 4.9 per cent of gross income for households in the bottom income quintile, 3.7 per cent for households in the second bottom quintile, falling to 1.7 per cent for the top quintile.

Under the system the SNP is proposing people would all pay the same proportion of their income.

Now, that is not necessarily the ideal system and it certainly takes away the ability of local authorities to set their own rates. But under the powers of devolution it is not possible to have a variable LIT in Scotland - we would need to be independent for that to happen. So the question is do we continue with council tax, which is regressive and penalises people on low or fixed incomes, or do we introduce this 3p income tax as a substitute for council tax?
83

Doh,

11/03/2008 10:04:44


Did he consider that "Young People" always grow old.

But old people never get any younger.

I hope he figured that into his "research".
84

Miss H,

11/03/2008 10:06:01
86 Duncan council tax is not paid to individuals - it is paid to councils.
85

Miss H,

11/03/2008 10:06:22
Sorry that should be council tax benefit is paid to councils.
86

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 11/03/2008 10:07:09
#79 Miss H

The collection mechanism is very much the same - it is collection based in a Scotish postcode vs. collection based on, say, and Aberdeenshire postcode. The only legislation currently in place enables the Edinburgh gov to vary Income Tax, not to levy a Local Income Tax (no matter where it is set). It is just semantics, but it is the law.
87

Duncan in Edinburgh,

11/03/2008 10:07:16
#82 Indeed, the systems for collecting these charges will need to remain in place, so the argument from Miss H in #77 is disingenuous at best.
88

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 10:07:23
81

Not in this country it doesnt due to the inflated cost of housing. A 2