Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement

 
 
Saturday, 6th September 2008 Change Date

Premium Article !

Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Options

Premium Article !

To read this article in full you must have registered and have a Premium Content Subscription with the The Scotsman site.

Subscribe

Registered Article !

To read this article in full you must be registered with the site.

Poorer households worse off, but richer gain from council tax freeze



Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date:
28 November 2007
UP to 1.75 million Scottish households will be worse off under the Scottish Government's flagship policy of freezing the council tax, The Scotsman can reveal.
Those living in homes in bands A to D will lose out, according to figures presented in secret to MSPs yesterday.

Professor David Bell, of Stirling University, has calculated that most of the 1,751,000 households in the four lower council tax bands will be between 18p and 30p a week worse off.

Although the amount is tiny, it runs directly counter to the SNP Government's claim that everyone will be better off under the freeze.

The calculation is part of a detailed academic study which also shows that freezing the council tax will help the better off at the expense of the poor.

In a paper submitted to a private meeting of Holyrood's finance committee yesterday, Prof Bell revealed that people in houses in bands F, G and H "gain the most from a council tax freeze".

Prof Bell, the official adviser to the finance committee, said an economic model which his department has pioneered, showed this was because households in bands A to E received council tax discounts or benefits.

He added: "Because their weekly council tax bill is small or zero, they have little to gain from a freeze on council tax. It follows that it is largely the more affluent individuals that gain from the council tax freeze."

The findings so angered SNP members of the committee that they forced the postponement of a plan to publish his paper in full yesterday.

However, a copy of the analysis on the council tax was passed to The Scotsman and Labour leapt on the finding that the richest would benefit most.

The findings bluntly contradict the Scottish Government's explicit pledge to "reduce disparities between rich and poor", made in their economic strategy. Published on 13 November, it said: "...there has not been an explicit target to reduce disparities between richest and poorest. In order for Scotland to be fairer, increases in wealth must reach those on the lowest incomes.

"Therefore, our target will be: to increase overall income and the proportion of income earned by the three lowest income deciles as a group by 2017."

Calculations by this newspaper show that people on the average Band A council tax rate of £766 a year for Scotland, will gain £151 over a three-year freeze. However, for a band H, where the average bill is £2,299, the gain will be £452 over three years. Both figures do not take into account the complex effect of council tax benefits and discounts.

Andy Kerr, Labour's local government spokesman said: "The SNP presented their council tax freeze as a policy that would help those most in need.

"This leaked report makes clear that the freeze does the opposite. It makes clear that it is largely more affluent people that gain from a council tax freeze."

A source close to John Swinney, the finance secretary, said: "The [Scottish] Government has not had sight of any such point of view."

The source said that "interestingly" the Burt Commission, which looked at options for local taxation, concluded that the Council Tax "has a disproportionate impact on people on low incomes, who therefore stand to gain most from a freeze".

First step towards controversial plan for local taxation

FREEZING council taxes across Scotland is the first stage of the new Scottish Government's plan to bring in a local income tax.

The SNP went into the Holyrood election with what it believed was a vote-winning promise to scrap the council tax, which it claimed had risen by 60 per cent under the Labour- Liberal Democrat Scottish Executive.

The SNP proposed to abolish what it described as the "unfair" council tax and replace it with a local income tax, which the Nationalists said was fairer as it would be based on earnings.

However, even in opposition the SNP recognised that there would be problems introducing the new system, and pledged that as an interim measure they would freeze the council tax. Doing that has cost John Swinney, the finance minister, considerable sums of money - and political capital - as he struggled to win the agreement to the plan from Scotland's local authorities.

A meeting of the 32 council leaders earlier this month failed to endorse the freeze, merely noting that the £400 million increase in funding for next year, to £11.1 billion, was the best financial deal possible in the circumstances from the Scottish Government.

Introducing a local income tax will be even more difficult. The SNP has said that it will be 3p in the pound across Scotland, laying itself open to the charge that it is a national rather than local tax.

The Scottish Government will also have to negotiate with Westminster over the council tax benefit, which is the responsibility of the UK government.

UK Labour ministers have said that the £380 million in benefit which comes to people in Scotland will not be paid if the council tax no longer exists.

SNP ministers claim the money is part of support for local government in Scotland and should come to them to help fund the new tax.

The full article contains 882 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 28 November 2007 12:01 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Council tax
 
1

Faye,

28/11/2007 00:23:20

Tell us something new.

Rich men buy political favours but what about the ordinary hardworking people of the United Kingdom?

Forget state funding of politicial parties. Forget minority agendas. The politicial message is clear. Rich or poor.

Labour. Is it for rich people and fascism or for the hardworking people?

2

Faye,

28/11/2007 00:24:22

Tell us something new.

Rich men buy political favours but what about the ordinary hardworking people of the United Kingdom?

Forget state funding of politicial parties. Forget minority agendas. The politicial message is clear. Rich or poor.

Labour. Is it for rich people and fascism or for the hardworking people?

3

democrate,

central Scotland 28/11/2007 00:28:54

And why are you not headlining the impact of Benefit and discount to those in the lower bands? That would remove your spin and make for accurate reporting...........

4

Florida Bob,

At Home 28/11/2007 00:36:19

Do the calculation - it's 19.7% no matter which band you are in.

5

Gnasher,

28/11/2007 00:39:16

This is just the start in the SNP's plan to redistribute money from the poorest to the richest.

Their next step will be the local income tax, which will not only exempt the super-rich from paying anything, but will reduce the amount raised by local taxation from 19% to a mere 11% or so. So Councils will be more and more dependent on the SNP's priorities, however local people voted.

Let's see them spin their way out of that.

6

democrate,

central Scotland 28/11/2007 00:46:04

But Eck does not need to spin; he can stick to telling the truth............

7

Richardinho,

28/11/2007 00:48:20

I don't quite understand how freezing a tax can leave someone 'worse off'.

8

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 28/11/2007 00:53:42

If the council tax had not been frozen it would have increased by the same percentage over all the bands. Those in the higher bands would have paid more than those in the lower bands. And so if the council tax is frozen it will save more money for those currently paying more council tax. That is a very basic application of logic. Currently those in the lower bands are paying least but it is in the lower bands that you will find the poorest. Anything that freezes the council tax is welcome to all council tax payers irrespective of band. I cannot understand how someone paying the same next year as this year could possibly be worse off paying the same. Why would bands A to E be losing out just because the higher bands will save more? I must be thick. Band As don't become poorer just because Band Hs are saving more.

9

Stefan Mack,

28/11/2007 00:58:23

could this be the most idiotic piece of political research ever?

10

Ronnie W,

The Far Blue Yonder 28/11/2007 01:04:14

Hands up all those who, like me, would complain, whine and spit bile at the SNP if they were proposing dropping the rate at which you pay income tax.

After all, reducing the rate would benifit those who have a higher taxable income more than it would benifit me or you. Surely a VERY BAD THING.......or, at least, a VBT if proposed by the SNP.

You see, I have really seen the light and taken Labour's message on board. Putting money in people's pockets is a VERY BAD THING if proposed by the SNP. So I'll just happily pay the usual whopping council tax increase as Labour would want me to do. I'm not being kidded by all this talk about putting money back in my pocket. Blimey, this SNP lot will be talking about helping people next.

11

seillean a mhirdenibha,

usa 28/11/2007 01:08:54

I could swear that the reeport said that those in the lowest bands are paying little or no council taxes. If they already pay no council tax, they have nothing to gain or loose and so the SNP is not riding on their backs. How are they worse off? Maybe the government should give them the amount of taxes they aren't paying. Maybe the government should increase their taxes so they can get some tax relief. Stupid reporting. Stupid spin. Must have Karl Rove working for Labour now.

12

Col. Blimp IV*,

! Boycott on Nov 30th ! 28/11/2007 01:10:50

I challenge you all to read this article slowly, mouthing the words if necessary.

And find the bit that explains how freezing the tax will make anybody worse off.

Even if their is some bizarre of the page calculation, that suggests that some poor souls will be approximately the price of one cigarette per week worse off.

Ask yourself will the freezing of the council tax result in a greater or smaller number of people having their wages or bank accounts arrested because they failed to pay on time?

Bear in mind the impact increasing mortgage repayments are going to have in the coming year.

Then ask ; will this be beneficial for me personally and the community as a whole.

Then find something useful to do with this sorry excuse for a newspaper.

http://www.ehow.com/images/ehows/steps/paperhat_4L.jpg

13

Am Balach,

Skye 28/11/2007 01:18:20

There must be a prize for this story. I'm just stunned. The Scotsman really must think we came up the Clyde eating bananas. Or am I really stupid and it is true that not paying more tax makes you 'worse off'? Someone please explain as I can't get to sleep with my brain in knots .

14

Stockbridge,

28/11/2007 01:20:30

Labour are the new Tories, so is this really a surprise?

15

,

28/11/2007 01:27:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1179867, Article id was mapped to record!
16

a proud doonhamer,

28/11/2007 01:29:16

This is truly pathetic. A Council tax freeze leaves everyone paying at the same level and at the same amount as before. Hence, the concept of FREEZE.

Arguments can be made about the impact of local imcome tax but trying to portray a FREEZE as changing anyone's bottom line beggars belief.

What is forgotten in this pathetic and self-serving article is that the alternative to the FREEZE would be for Council tax to RISE. If the Council tax rose by any amount, it would have a vastly more negative impact than the FREEZE.

The article further asserts that those in higher bands would save more than those in lower bands due to the FREEZE. Does the author take us all for idots? That calculation is based on an assumption that council tax would rise by an assumed rate of increase. This type of concoction is beneath contempt.

Without the FREEZE, Council tax would rise by varying amounts in each Council area. With the FREEZE, Council tax remains the same.

The only logical conclusions are:

1. The Council tax FREEZE lowers the real dollars payable by all taxpayers.

2. The writer of this article and the editors who allowed it to be published should be embarrassed.

3. It is obvious that Labour has no ability to manage financial matters, whether in their own party, or in government.

4. Only an idiot would fall for this obvious wind up.

17

Richardinho,

28/11/2007 01:37:26

Another point is; we constantly hear about how this tax freezed is going to cost the government.

Maybe, but ultimately it's money going back to the people. And there have been studies showing that tax cuts (which this effectively is after inflation is taken into account) can lead to an actual increase in the overall tax take due to increased growth in the economy.

18

a proud doonhamer,

28/11/2007 01:45:30

A further point to consider from Prof. Bell.

Those in lower tax bands would be hurt by the FREEZE because it would reduce their amount of COUNCIL TAX BENEFIT paid to them to offset the amount of COUNCIL TAX that they pay.

Using that logic we should increase the Council tax paid by those in the lower bands in order to maximize their Council Tax Benefit.

Could it be more pathetic?

Labour is advocating increasing Council tax which comes out of each taxpayers limited funds in order to maximize the benefit. No wonder the country's finances are in such terrible shape.

And who pays for the Council Tax Benefit? The taxpayers, of course. Money to the benefit at the expense of health, police, education etc.

The sooner we move to Local Income tax to provide a more progressive policy of tax collection the better.

19

,

28/11/2007 02:08:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1179910, Article id was mapped to record!
20

Nevyn,

Glasgow 28/11/2007 02:15:26

Living in Glasgow in a Band A household can I just say to Peter McMahon and the Scotsman that there are NO circumstances in which I will be worse off with a Council Tax freeze.

Self evidently if you freeze Council Tax then I pay nothing more. I don't qualify for Council Tax Benefit so whatever David Bell at Stirling University thinks, my position in a low income household doesn't get worse.

Your headline is "Poorer Households worse off"

But you say in the article that "Calculations by this newspaper show that people on the average Band A council tax rate of £766 a year for Scotland will gain £151 over a three-year freeze".

How can you people look yourselves in a mirror and still call yourselves journalists. Did Pravda's owners take up home in your editorial board?

21

Bad Yin,

Scotland - A Nation Reborn 28/11/2007 02:45:59

The Scotsman is trying to distract us from labours meltdown. But here's the interesting bits:

"In a paper submitted to a private meeting of Holyrood's finance committee yesterday, Prof Bell revealed that people in houses in bands F, G and H "gain the most from a council tax freeze".

However, a copy of the analysis on the council tax was passed to The Scotsman and Labour leapt on the finding that the richest would benefit most."

Labour still trying to scuttle the deal with COSLA. Labour - lie doon - yer died!

22

The Forgotten Princess,

Harassed on City Bus by Horrendicoots 28/11/2007 03:01:56

Classic. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. The rich benefit at the expense of the poor. And of course the rich buy political favors, and every other kind of favors.

There is a wealthy Horrendicoot getting away with stalking, harassing, terrorizing me in all kinds of hideous ways - and using his money to both pull it and get away with it. Not all rich people are bad,, but some are just plain nauseating. MORALLY BANKRUPT.

I guess the Scottish people wouldn't know about the Kennedy presidents we had in the US, John Kennedy and Robert Kennedy. Many people have had much to say about the Kennedys, based on behaviors of members of this wealthy family. Well, you'd guess the offspring of these guys would be pretty wealthy and powerful. I heard on a documentary that John Kennedy had a grandson, and that at first they were going to make it public and then decided to keep it hushed. WOULDN'T IT BE HORRIBLE IF SOMEONE OF THAT MUCH WEALTH AND POWER WAS PSYCO AND USING THIS WEALTH AND POWER TO STALK, HARASS, AND TERRORIZE A WOMAN?

23

Mad King Bambo,

Roon at Flabskin's bit 28/11/2007 03:33:46

#5 Gnasher - Come to think of it, I'd better give you an imaginary 30p just in case you're an imaginary 30p worse off.

Here it is.

If you just tune into one of these blogs every week, I'll keep it coming.

Better now?

24

seaweasel,

Glasgow 28/11/2007 03:37:09

Re the post above. Shouldn't there be a "Report as obviously insane" button beside "Report as unsuitable"?

Although I suppose that would just open the door for more buttons such as "Report as negligently innacurate reporting" or "Report journalist as in the pocket of the Labour party".

25

Bad Yin,

Scotland For Me 28/11/2007 03:39:31

Princess,

please refill your SSRI script.

26

Mad King Bambo,

Roon at Flabskin's bit 28/11/2007 04:10:53

Come to think of it, if there are any more Nu-Blab drones out there who are upset at the loss of their imaginary 18p or 30p I can probably square them up too, within reason.

27

beeree,

28/11/2007 04:38:17

If money is being used to freeze or subsidise council tax where is it coming from?

Or alternatively where would it have gone?

I can understand the sceptism of our SNP friends but without the full report how can you make an informed opinion?

28

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 28/11/2007 04:42:13

A Council Tax freeze (still to be delivered) would not result in lower taxation overall. In fact, Swinney has admitted that the overall tax grab is likely to be greater. And you can bet your boots that the likes of Souter and Farmer won't be paying more.

29

A Scottish Voice.,

Scotland 28/11/2007 04:42:55

When you throw inflation into the equation the true value and effect of the freeze is actualy a reduction.

This report is a Labour propaganda stretch, breathtaking in it's idiocy.

30

druidh,

28/11/2007 05:56:13

Did the "journalist" actually write the line about these calculations "not taking into account the benefits and discounts" or was this added later?

31

Stanley Unwin,

The Scotsman's Editorial Suite 28/11/2007 06:44:27

Once a polly tito the Scotsman pretendy a pride in journalissimo standardat.

This partarticle is is partyparticulard remarkibold.

A council tax freeze will be thriftymost on your banky balancer regardless of bandied about level you hide in.

The Labour Parody continue to give deep joy since their unseating.

32

george alexander,

north lanarkshire 28/11/2007 06:47:51

JOIN THE BOYCOTT, 30TH NOV.....ALL ONLINE SCOTTISH NEWSPAPERS.

33

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Don't blame me, I didn't vote for any of them. 28/11/2007 06:49:10

Quite right, too. The poor deserve to be poor. We wealthy have earned our wealth by working hard. We should not be penalised for that.

34

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 28/11/2007 07:23:01

OK, then raise the council tax as Labour was going to do and, um, the poor will be better off, won't they?

35

Big Boydie,

28/11/2007 07:24:28
36

Boy Wonder,

28/11/2007 07:25:29

This is one of those mind-numbing exercises in number-crunching with %es and financial figures that threaten to make sense but doesn't quite get there because the argument is designed to turn you off, so that an oily govt official or worse, a journo with an agenda can explain it to you in a way that's slanted to maximize your uncomfortability factor!

Well don't worry, Hootsmon, I got there on my own and I know better than to trust the self-serving deceit you're tryng to inflict on us.

You are of course, doing all you can to screw with anything the SNP govt proposes to make me change my mind. Sorry, I don't buy it ...

I'm not fully awake yet. Someone tell me I made sense!!

37

Boy Wonder,

28/11/2007 07:26:33

*Well, when I say somebody ... I don't mean a Unionist!!

38

Scott_B,

28/11/2007 07:54:25

Oh come on Scotsman, this is desperate.

Because taxation is necessarily proportionately more toward the better off (because they actually have money), an inevitable consequence is that they will benefit "more" from a freeze.

So what's the answer - if we are taxed more and more, that will affect the wealthy more, so the less well off will do comparatively better?

I think not. This is a good first step toward lower taxation and smaller government.

39

malkster,

Scotland 28/11/2007 07:56:13

The only interesting bit in the whole pointless story is that the report enraged the SNP. They should ignore it or they may make it a story.

40

South Ayrshire Sanny Hossack,

28/11/2007 08:00:34

The Fat Controller has shown yet again that him and his SNP party are no Robin Hoods, stealing from the poor and giving to the rich, what a shower of chancers.

41

David MacVicar,

web 28/11/2007 08:00:54

This is another example of ow low the Scotsman has fallen. What total utter crap.

They must be desperate to print such crap in such a way to a Freeze look like a cost. What could be more egalitarian than a freeze for everyone?

This paper disgusts me.
Roll on the boycott on Friday.

42

JayJay,

Right here 28/11/2007 08:03:55

This is oh so typical of the "deflect and deny" policies that have served Wee Wendy's crew so well in Scotland over the past 50 years. If you can turn anything into a "rich v poor" argument, you can rely on your traditional supporters to disengage brain and to foam at the mouth at the injustice of it all.
It is of course a far better strategy than allowing people to perhaps ponder on why Government has to get bigger year on year, and why government finances must always be more than in previous years. It certainly is a help if people don't start wondering what they are actually paying for. And as we have seen in the past few weeks, across Scotland there are numerous examples of Council spending madness (£1m logo for Edinburgh that no one uses, large pay offs for Council heads dismissed as incompetent by Audit Scotland to name but two).
The freeze must only be the start because we simply cannot allow Government to continue to grow at its present exponential rate. For one thing, the public purse just cannot afford all of those lovely pensions.

43

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 28/11/2007 08:07:06

While I'm not convincde a local income tax will be beneficial to those less well off, I'm damned if I can figure out how the freeze makes things worse?

Indeed, if it's the only thing not affected by inflation -surely, um...it's better. Maybe, I missed something.

Not that it matters so much in Glasgow since they didn't increase it last year and most likely have again.

Even still, I am perplexed by the Professors findings.

44

BMeister,

28/11/2007 08:09:40

Am I reading this wrong but is the reason that p[eople will be 18p or 30p or whatever worse off because their benefit will not rise by this amount because their council tax will not have risen and therefore they will not recieve a rise in benefit. So if they receive benefit/discount to cover the cost of their council tax then this will not change as the tax has not risen.

i.e. the council tax will not rise and therefore the benefit discount will not rise and so they are seen as getting 30p less income while paying 30p less tax. The onbly way they could be worse off would be if the benefit rose by more than the tax. What a duff theory on which to base a headline article.

Good to see MacMahon following the old adage - 'never let the facts get in the way of a good story'

45

M.T.,

28/11/2007 08:10:03

THE HOMELESS DO NOT PAY COUNCIL TAX AND SO ARE UNEFFECTED BY A RISE OR FREEZE.

HOWEVER WHEN THE HOMELESS EAT, THEY ARE SUBJECTED TO THE FUEL TAX WHICH THE LABOUR GOVERNMENT INCREASE AT REGULAR INTERVALS

46

Cadgers,

Perth 28/11/2007 08:12:51

Thank you hootsman, you've just given me my first headscratch then belly laugh of the day:-) You did mean this to be a comedy piece did you not?

#31 :-) Stanley U

47

Neil C.,

Aberdeenshire 28/11/2007 08:31:37

#48. Good thinking! Stop the homeless from eating and they'll be better off.

Would rich homeless people benefit more from not eating than poor homeless people?

48

paulr,

28/11/2007 08:34:01

3p in the pound is quite a lot when you earn minimum wage..... but a free ride as usual when you are living on benefits

49

sam the god,

28/11/2007 08:34:05

A freeze on the council tax is most welcome it would seem that the people on the lower bands will have less money spent on them paid for by the homes on the higher band.
Just remember that a large proportion of people on the lowest band do not work and as a result get rent, gas electricity council tax and numerous other benefits paid to them for doing nothing. So yes a freeze will cost them money.

50

Allan (Glasgow),

28/11/2007 08:44:03

This is ridiculous on the point of being unbelievable.

So Labour, and this newspaper it seems, now state that a freeze in tax makes the poor worse off? I think I have heard it all now.

As for the impact of benefits if it wasnt for the economic illiterates in the Labour party and their successive policies there wouldnt be the need for the benefits.

51

,

28/11/2007 08:45:24
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1180326, Article id was mapped to record!
52

Frere Jacques,

Glasgow 28/11/2007 08:50:22

I have to agree with most posters that it's not entirely clear how poor households will lose out-but I wonder if it's due to wage increases.

My understanding of council tax benefit, though, is that it is paid according to the ratio of council tax to household income (a simplification, but you know what I mean)-the larger one's income is in relation to council tax, the less benefit you receive.

Presumably, most employed people's income will increase next year, if due to nothing other than inflation. If the council tax does not also increase, then the income: tax ratio increases, reducing the amount of benefit. If the benefit falls by more than the wage rise (and it does taper very quickly), then the household is worse off.

53

interstellarmince,

outer space 28/11/2007 08:53:39

Illuminati Labour Psycho-babble.

54

BMeister,

28/11/2007 08:58:24

#55 Frere

If that's the way it's paid then surely just adjusting the ratios by an amount proportional to inflation would remove this problem.

What happened in Glasgow when council tax didn't rise?

55

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 28/11/2007 09:03:44

#55 That does actually make sense.

Assuming benefits are linked to wages.

Perhaps the article could have phrased it that way.

56

Boab,

Glasgow 28/11/2007 09:11:24

Midwinter and Bell ... maybe these academics wheeled out by the Hootsman ought to put on a Xmas panto?

57

Joe,

Next train out 28/11/2007 09:12:46

SNP - Tartan Tories...

58

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 28/11/2007 09:12:47

18p to 30p a week worse off eh? What's that? Around 30 seconds of digital tv on thier plasma tv's? Or around the cost of one Regal King Size a week? Half a tin of Tennants Larger from ASDA's? Less than the cost of a copy of the Daily Record per week?

C'mon Scotsman, you know fine the poor arn't actually poor in the proper sense of the word.

59

watcher4,

Edinburgh 28/11/2007 09:13:04

Does it take more money to empty a rich mans bucket than a poor mans bucket? The whole system is unfair as the SNP stated in their manifesto. They promised a 3% local income tax to combat this, but like all the rest of their promises it has broken down.

60

Allan (Glasgow),

28/11/2007 09:13:26

57 BMeister,

Good point on Glasgow.

Is the Labour party now claiming that the massive year on year rises in Council Tax that they presided over was actually a ploy to help the poor?!!

Labour are morons!!!!!!

61

MtnKat,

28/11/2007 09:17:52

I don't even know where to start on this one. I realized when I read the words:"the Scotsman can reveal" that it would be more propaganda, but taken together with Editor Alan yesterday I can't believe that they just don't learn.
This has been 'leaked'. Will Labour be chastised as Nicola Sturgeon was a few weeks ago?
Labour went on a feeding frenzy over that, demanding an apology for having been demeaned, insulted, not treated with the respect due the Parliament............Damn near lost my lunch watching those hypocrites.
It's the Herald for me on Friday. I recommend contacting the Herald and requesting a more user friendly site if they want Friday to become Everyday for them.

62

roan dddd,

Death to the Scotsman 28/11/2007 09:30:04

No #8

You are perfectly sane . This is my interpretation as well

This is an intelectually bankrupt piece of research
by a an intellectually bankrupt paper

63

Allen,

Glasgow 28/11/2007 09:31:22

Lets get something straight- this is one load of crap- Are we seriously proposing to benefit the people who don't want to work and have their council tax paid for them by the state ? Lets make the lazy richer-where is the logic in that, sorry not for me.

Why is the band rating in England different that in Scotland ?

Scotland pays maore council tax than our counterparts in England !

64

Alastair the First,

28/11/2007 09:36:00

So what they are saying is that if you don't pay any tax, you're not going to gain by a freeze? How long did it take them to work that one out? It's a bit like saying that reducing the basic rate of income tax won't help anyone who doesn't pay income tax.

What they seem to be ignoring is that people in bigger houses will still pay a lot more in absolute terms. You can't have a saving if you don't pay in the first place.

This is a typical Labour/Scotsman distorted spin story. And if Labour are so against a council tax freeze, let the support the SNP's plan for a local income tax - they can't have it both ways. Although I believe a lot of them do...

65

Queen D,

Glasgow 28/11/2007 09:39:20

Is the Prof. an economist??
This is a bit like me going to the sales and working on the principle the more I buy,the more I save!
Utter drivel!

66

BMeister,

28/11/2007 09:41:20

62 watcher4
'They promised a 3% local income tax to combat this, but like all the rest of their promises it has broken down.'

No it hasn't, even the biased article above clearly states -
"Freezing council taxes across Scotland is the first stage of the new Scottish Government's plan to bring in a local income tax. "

this was specified before the election.

If you're going to spout drivel at least make a pretense at it being fact based rather than prejudice based drivel.

67

connaughtboy,

28/11/2007 09:41:23

Send Peter McMahon an email. I just did!

68

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

28/11/2007 09:49:09

It was pretty obvious that there would be some who would not gain as they pay little or no Council tax as it stands. Those who will gain the most from the freeze are those who pay the full amount.

Can't quite get how those who pay little or no Council tax can lose out though.

Has anyone managed to figure out why?

69

Toom,

28/11/2007 09:52:19

Since the council tax freeze is funded by giving more money to councils from the general grant, and since this is funded by general taxation, and since what you pay in direct and indirect taxation is generally linked to income, then the wealthier still fund more of the increase in council expenditure. The difference is that every taxpayer contributes to this, rather than only those subject to council tax, which makes it slightly more fair.

70

Gregor Addison,

Scotland 28/11/2007 09:55:43

How much worse off would they be if they don't freeze it?

71

Mad King Bambo,

Roon at Flabskin's bit 28/11/2007 09:56:42

I'm boycotting

72

mr angry,

ayrshire 28/11/2007 09:57:12

what a load of codswallop. How the hell can anybody be worse off if they don't pay anything, and if they are on benefits and not entitled to any higher payment how can they be worse off. This is disgraceful and this so called academic should be sacked immediately , he is obviously thick.

73

Grandson of Winged Messenger,

28/11/2007 09:59:46

The Scotsman has taken its anti-SNP balderdash into the twilight zone.

It used to be annoying. Now it's almost worthy of pity.

74

BMeister,

28/11/2007 10:04:23

70 Federalist

Post 55 has a theory of how you can lose out

75

BMeister,

28/11/2007 10:05:32

71 Toom
Good point well put

76

Lesley Hinds,

28/11/2007 10:05:48

The second part of the headline is quite and and quite correct. The richest who pay the most obviously benefit the most from a tax cut.

However saying the poorest will be worse off can only be justified if you assume they will suffer a loss of benefits or services as the councils trim their budgets.

The most worrying aspect of this story is that the SNP postponed publication of this academic report. Presumably to give their spin merchants more time to put a better gloss on the obvious consequences of a tax cut.

77

connaughtboy,

28/11/2007 10:06:45

Here is the text of my email to Peter MacMahon:

"Peter

You should be ashamed of yourself. This is pure Labour propaganda with no basis in fact.

Wise up man, you are losing all credibility."


and here is his reply:


"The basis of the story is a paper submitted by Prof David Bell, a highly respected academic from Stirling University, to the finance committee which he is adviser to.

Sadly, some MSPs stopped the paper being published yesterday in full. However, I understand that it will be published soon and the conclusion that the council tax freeze favours the better off will be in there.

As for my credibility, well in my view, that rest on whether I report stories accurately. I did in this case and strive to do so always.

However, we welcome comment on the website and letters page. feel free."

78

Mr Pink,

28/11/2007 10:08:49

"reduce disparities between rich and poor" Yeah right!

This increases the disparities as the tartan tories aim for middle scotland with this and the business tax cuts.

79

connaughtboy,

28/11/2007 10:09:11

further to #80

Notice how PMac is now shifting his position to:

"the council tax freeze favours the better off.."

Which is totally different to saying that they will be "worse off"!!

80

MtnKat,

28/11/2007 10:10:01

73 MKB
I have e-mailed the website editor at the Herald apprising them of Friday's boycott and requesting a more user friendly site.
The more of us who do that, the better chance we have of finding a new home and showing this propaganda sheet that people can speak more loudly with their silence and descimate their bottom line.
They have nothing but contempt for us as evidenced by their continually insulting our intelligence.

81

connaughtboy,

28/11/2007 10:10:44

#81 AM2

What makes you so sure its an "objective" analysis? You haven't even had access to the full report.

82

BMeister,

28/11/2007 10:11:46

77 AM2

'The only thing I can think of is that the freeze may affect the way in which Council Tax Benefit is calculated'

I think that may be the way they are looking at it and it's the only way I can see it happening. If council tax stays the same and your income goes up (as it should do every year) then your ratio of income to council tax changes. However for you to lose out then the govt wopuld have to not raise the expected incomes for the calculations whoich they do year on year anyway, so the whole theory appears to fall down at this point.

At Clutching Straws MacMahon.

Makle a sentence.

As I asked before and you AM2 should know, what happened in Glasgow when the council tax didn't rise?

83

MtnKat,

28/11/2007 10:12:32

AM2
Feeling better?

84

juan kerr and his magic hand......,

BOYCOTT THE SCOTSMAN 30/11/07 28/11/2007 10:13:25

Give it up hootsmon, your agenda is hteir for all to see as your wearing it firmly on your sleave. This non story takes precedence over the shannanigans your pals are up too?

If ever their was a case for a boycott of this paper it's now. I am fed up being fed manure by this New Appoologist mouthpiece. Fair and balanced reporting is all we require. We are intelligent enough to judge the full facts. Not the balony above.

85

ACS,

St Andrews 28/11/2007 10:13:48

"Prof Bell, the official adviser to the finance committee, said an economic model which his department has pioneered, showed this was because households in bands A to E received council tax discounts or benefits." Having lived variously in Bands C, D and E over the past 10 years and never had a council tax discount, how much am I owed?

86

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 28/11/2007 10:14:26

This is desperate drivel. The freeze is the first step towards implementing a local income tax which will be directly based on people's income.

The freeze will mean council tax bills will be lower over the next four years than they would have been if they were not frozen. Eventually LIT will be a fairer system.

87

connaughtboy,

28/11/2007 10:15:37

AM2

You might also want to comment on the level of balanced reporting by the Scotsman. None of us know yet whether the 18p and 30p figures are correct yet, but where in the article does Peter MacMahon (or Prof Bell) provide the savings the "poor" will make relative to what they would pay next year without the Council Tax freeze?

88

Methspaña,

28/11/2007 10:16:10

So the council tax is frozen yet people in lower bands are worse off?

Silly statistic. It's like saying if everybody got a 5% salary increase, those earning more would receive more.

Still a crappy newspaper.

89

Methspaña,

28/11/2007 10:17:12

...and if the tax weren't frozen and there was an across the board 5 increase, those in the higher bands would pay more?

Pish statistic.

90

I'm no really here,

28/11/2007 10:22:24

"Because their weekly council tax bill is small or zero, they have little to gain from a freeze on council tax. It follows that it is largely the more affluent individuals that gain from the council tax freeze."

The report seems to say that those who are paying little or no Council Tax will gain the least from the Council Tax Freeze, therefore according to this logic, because they gain the least they will be worse off?

Does this rag AND Professor David Bell, of Stirling University take lessons in logic from the Gordon Brown Academy.

You can see desperation settling into the Labour Camp throughout the land. What next "SNP MSP asked for second helpings at taxpayers expense".

91

morris,

embra 28/11/2007 10:22:55

If you dont freeze a tax you increase it.Even the village idiot can work that one out! In fact it can increase in line with inflation and in real terms will be exactly the same !

Of course people benefit by a freeze because you should compare it to what would have happened if you did not freeze it!IT WOULD HAVE BEEN HIGHER DOH!

I dont know who did the arithmetic in this article but its a load of cobblers and anybody advertising the fact that they are stoo stupid to work that out does so ill advisedly!

92

connaughtboy,

28/11/2007 10:23:04

#98 AM2

Far from unwarranted.

93

peteedinburgh,

28/11/2007 10:24:43

Its all about who has the power

In the 80s the conservatives were busy abolishing large English local authorities because they had big enough areas to be able to meaningfully redistribute money through rates from richer to poorer areas. National Govt reckoned that was their job to be done to their priorities (well their voters' priorities actually)

The SNP is just continuing this process with the one Mrs Thatcher didn't get round to - Strathclyde

94

MtnKat,

28/11/2007 10:26:24

95 AM2
I went through it last week. You have my sympathy.

95

AJ of Fife,

28/11/2007 10:27:19

I notice the AM2 team stays off the latest Labour financial scandal stories!

96

Rasco,

Inverness 28/11/2007 10:27:38

Correct me if wrong but I think Andy Kerr praised Glasgow for freezing council tax is he now saying to freeze all council tax is wrong I know my tax went up every year when his crowd were in charge so I will save some money this coming year as a penisoner I welcome that.

97

Methspaña,

28/11/2007 10:27:43

A real journalist digs & digs. A real journalist doesn't report verbatim what he / she is told. A real journalist tries to get to the truth behind a story. Real journalists don't spin.

98

MtnKat,

28/11/2007 10:28:39