Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


Swinney tax plan's missing £700m

Premium Article !

Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Options

Premium Article !

To read this article in full you must have registered and have a Premium Content Subscription with the The Scotsman site.

Subscribe

Registered Article !

To read this article in full you must be registered with the site.

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date:
12 March 2008
JOHN Swinney, the finance secretary, took the biggest gamble of his political career yesterday – staking the SNP government's fate on a new tax that will hit middle- to high-income earners across Scotland.
Unveiling his plans to replace the council tax with a local income tax (LIT) – to come in just before the next election – Mr Swinney insisted he was not targeting hard-working families.

But the plan immediately ran into opposition from an unlikely alliance of Labour, the Tories, the business community and some unions, as the new tax already has a potential black hole of more than £710 million.

Mr Swinney admitted LIT would not raise as much as the council tax, leaving a shortfall of £280 million a year that the Scottish Government would have to find.

Yesterday, he could not say where that would come from, and conceded that he was relying on getting back £400 million a year from the UK government in council tax benefit – a move Westminster has rejected already – to make his sums add up.

In addition, it will cost at least £30 million a year to collect the tax, and that is if Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs can be persuaded to change its stance of collecting only national taxes.

Mr Swinney said the new tax of 3p in the pound on all earnings above £5,435 would be fairer than the council tax as it would be based on ability to pay.

He said many more Scots, including pensioners and the low-paid, would be better off with LIT and that only the highest earners would pay more.

"The vast majority will be better off and the local income tax will benefit most those earning the least," he said.

The finance secretary claimed that 80 per cent of Scots would either be better off or see no change in their bills, with only 18 per cent worse off. He added: "These proposals represent a reduction in the tax burden on Scotland. That will be welcomed across Scotland and is a key part of our plans to create a wealthier and fairer nation."

The Scottish Government published projections forecasting that only households with earnings of more than £70,000 a year would be worse off.

However, independent research by the accountancy firm PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC) for The Scotsman revealed last night that there would be many more losers under LIT than the Scottish Government has predicted, and that hundreds of thousands of middle-income earners in all parts of Scotland would be worse off.

PwC broke down the wage levels by individual council tax bands – something Scottish Government projections failed to do – to give a more detailed picture of the winners and losers.

It found that single people in average Band D homes earning more than £35,000 would have to pay more, and that those in more expensive Band G homes would pay more if they earned above £53,000.

It also worked out that couples in Band D homes would start to pay more once their combined income hit £49,000, while couples in the more expensive Band G homes would pay more if their combined income totalled £75,000 or more.

Iain McMillan, director of the Scottish CBI, warned Mr Swinney and Alex Salmond, the First Minister, that their plans would "torpedo" attempts to create an enterprise economy in Scotland.

"Higher levels of income tax in Scotland will send the wrong message to people in England and overseas about Scotland's tax regime, because Scotland's effective basic and higher rates of tax will be the highest in the UK," he said.

Warning of the potentially disastrous effects on the SNP at the next election, Mr McMillan added: "They should be mindful that those who gain will have short memories – those who lose will have long memories, and there will be many of them."

Wendy Alexander, the Scottish Labour leader, described the LIT plan as a "gift to the super rich", because it did not tax unearned income.

She said: "It will make Scots workers the highest taxed in the UK. This 'Scottish jobs tax' will hit the pay packets of every hard-working Scot.

It will also inflate house prices and make it even harder for first-time buyers to get on the property ladder."

And Derek Brownlee, the Scottish Tories' finance spokesman, added: "The really damaging thing is the signal this sends out that we would be the highest-taxed part of the UK.

"That would be disastrous in terms of attracting workers and trying to get Scots to return, particularly when we compete internationally and with the rest of the UK."

"This would be really bad for the financial services industry in Edinburgh, and we don't want to be putting obstacles in its way."

Matt Smith, the Scottish secretary of the trade union Unison, said ministers would either have to set the new tax at 6.5p in the pound, not 3p, to generate the same amount of money as the council tax, or they would have to be prepared for cuts in services.

He said: "The introduction of a further tax on wages will either make many families worse off, or lead to cuts in public services. The government can't have it both ways."

Professor James Mitchell, of the politics department at Strathclyde University, said he found the SNP's move towards LIT perplexing because the Scottish Government had previously done so well in targeting "middle Scotland".

He added: "There will be a section of middle-class Scotland which will lose out and, given that the SNP managed to appeal to people across all classes at the election, they are in danger of alienating a significant body of people at the next election.

"While these people are not likely to be Labour voters, there is every reason to believe they may go back to a revived Conservative Party."

SWINNEY UNABLE TO GLOSS OVER THE CRACKS WITH A LOW-KEY LAUNCH OF POLICY THAT LOOKS SET TO FAIL

WHEN John Swinney handed out copies of his consultation paper on local income tax yesterday, something wasn't quite right.

The 50-page document was stapled together on one corner, there was no glossy cover, no colourful folder – nothing, in fact, to suggest this was a key policy announcement by the Scottish Government.

It was almost as if the finance secretary didn't really believe the policy would ever get approved and was merely going through the motions, politically, of launching an initiative which he knew was destined to fail.

After all, it is now clear that there are so many holes in this policy package that it is the political equivalent of a mosquito net.

The first big one is financial – the quite startling black hole of £700 million – £400 million of which the UK government will not return in council tax benefit and £280 million in the shortfall from existing council tax payments, as well as collection costs.

Then there is the lack of aid from Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs, the opposition of a majority of MSPs and huge questions over the collection of the tax.

Mr Swinney had to introduce this policy because it was in his party's election manifesto and it was in the manifesto because SNP activists voted for it. It may be "fairer" for many voters, but it will damage Scotland's economy, and Mr Swinney knows that.

There is a feeling at Holyrood that the Scottish Government is waiting for this one to fail so everybody else, particularly the UK government, can be blamed. That way, Mr Swinney can keep the party on side, blame the UK government and protect the economy – not that he would ever admit it, of course.

Q & A: TAXING QUESTIONS

Q: What does the SNP mean by a local income tax?

A: A direct replacement for the council tax. Every earner who currently pays income tax would have to pay an extra tax on their earnings. It would be set centrally at 3p on the basic and higher rates of income tax.

Q: How would it be collected?

A: The Scottish Government hopes Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs will collect the tax and hand it over. HMRC has yet to be consulted and has shown no enthusiasm to get involved. If HMRC does not collect the money, the Scottish Government would have to set up a Scottish Collection Agency either as a public body or by inviting private companies to tender for the work. Alternatively, councils could be asked to do the collecting themselves.

Q: How much will this cost?

A: Ministers claim collection costs of £30 million a year if done by HMRC. That would rise significantly if done by a new agency. There are no estimates of that cost.

Q: How much will the income tax raise?

A: The SNP believes the local income tax will raise £1.7 billion, £280 million less than is raised by the council tax at the moment. That gap will have to be filled by the Scottish Government.

Q: Will it be shared out equally among councils?

A: Ministers have not decided whether the money should go to each local authority on the basis of what is raised in each area or divided more equitably among councils or even allocated on the basis of deprivation or need.

Q: Who would have to pay?

A: Anybody who is classed as a "Scottish taxpayer". Broadly, this is someone who lives in the UK for income tax purposes and Scotland is the part of the UK with which they have the closest connection during the year. In practice, it will probably mean people whose main home is in Scotland.

Q: What about companies based in England with employees in Scotland?

A: This is a potential problem as these firms might not co-operate with the new tax in the way Scottish companies will have to. But John Swinney, the finance secretary, said he hoped HMRC would help identify all Scottish taxpayers working for English companies and have their tax adjusted accordingly.

Q: What about unearned income?

A: The local income tax would only affect earned income. People who live off their investments will not be liable to pay the income tax.

Q: Could the 3p rate vary?

A: Yes. One of the options is for councils to be given the ability to set their own rates. This is what the Lib Dems want and the SNP might have to concede this to get the support it needs to get the policy through parliament. Householders in different parts of the country could pay different rates. Although the SNP wants to introduce a 3p flat rate across the country, there is nothing to stop future governments raising this. The 3p rate is not capped, unlike the so-called Tartan Tax, which is capped at 3p in the pound by the Scotland Act.

Q: When will it be introduced?

A: Scottish ministers believe it will be before the elections in 2011. However, this depends on the support of other parties to get it through Holyrood quickly, and the co-operation of Westminster and Whitehall, neither of which appears likely. Experts have warned it could take six years, or more.

Q: What about the money Scottish councils get at present in council tax benefit?

A: A big problem. At the moment, the Treasury provides £400 million in funding to Scottish councils in the form of council tax benefit, covering the costs of those who cannot afford council tax. The Treasury has said it will stop paying this if the Scottish Government scraps council tax. Scottish ministers believe the UK government has a duty to pay this money but, if it loses the £400 million, it will find it hard to balance the books. All calculations have been done on the basis of continuing to receive the £400 million.

Q: What about people with second homes?

A: Ministers intend to tax people with their first and second homes in Scotland in the same way they are taxed now, with full council tax on one and a discounted, up to 90 per cent, rate on the other. Under the new plans, householders would be liable to local income tax for their first home and would be charged a fee for their second home; the rate for this has not been set yet.

People with second homes outwith Scotland, say in England, would be able to choose which home they want classed as their main home. The rich would probably choose English homes for a main residence to avoid paying the local income tax in Scotland.

Winners and losers in local tax plans

Rhona Irving

CRUNCHING the numbers, it would appear most people in Scotland would be better off paying 3p extra in income tax rather than council tax.

However, there are some questions worth asking.

The obvious winners from local income tax would be pensioners. Under the current council tax system, it is often retired people who are affected most as they have low incomes, but are sometimes in large family homes in high council tax bands.

A local income tax system appears to balance this as the 3p provision cannot be used on savings and investments, so pensioners who have invested wisely will come out on top.

The higher earners will be the losers and, within that group, a potentially difficult issue would be people with second homes south of the Border.

A local income tax would be decided for most people according to their principal residence, and the simplest way to decide that would be on the address registered with the employer for tax and National Insurance.

There are a number of high-earners who spend a significant part of their week working in England and come home to Scotland at weekends. There are also people who work in Scotland and spend weekends in England. Many of these people own or rent a property in each place.

There could be a choice for them, depending on interpretation of the legislation, between stating that their main home is in England or Scotland.

Another complication will be the perception of international business looking to invest in Scotland. A regular question asked of tax advisers is whether Scotland has a different tax rate to the rest of the UK and, so far, the answer has been "no". An increase of 3p in the pound could be a disincentive, and it is a complex message to say we have higher income tax but no council tax.

There are several areas which would need to be ironed out through the consultation process. This is not to say a local income tax would not work, or that most people would not be better off, but it is not as simple to set up as it first appears.

• Rhona Irving is head of tax at PricewaterhouseCoopers Scotland.

The full article contains 2486 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

DER FUHRER,

12/03/2008 00:07:45
Swinney was lost for words on Newsnight Scotland last night thats for sure.

Gordon Brewer asked him time and time again how much someone that lived on investment income would pay under the new scheme.

Swinney could only say it depends on the circumstances.

So Brewer asked him how much somebody on £100K of investment income would pay under the scheme, and Swinney still could not answer him.

Mr Swinney is one of the brightest politicians we have too.

Swinney was not honest enough to admit that such a person would pay nothing which is a bit worrying.
2

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 12/03/2008 00:17:01
Well, he can't really revel in taxing the rich more can he?

So, if you take the top 5% richest of the population, they'll pay around 10 times more under LIT, as a agroup, than they would under the Council Tax.

Excellent news from the SNP!

Now, the real question is will London try to withhold money that legally belongs to Scotland out of spite?
3

DER FUHRER,

12/03/2008 00:19:40
#2........... I hope Swinney is successful in bringing in the new tax. He still has a few hurdles to jump though.

It looks like London definitely will be holding onto the £400 million. That is no surprise though, that was always going to be the case.
4

DER FUHRER,

12/03/2008 00:20:55
#3 Gordon Brewer is certainly the best interviewer we have. He made mincemeat of Swinney tonight.
5

britsout,

camelon 12/03/2008 00:24:50
gordon brewers partisan attack , is typical b b c , can i get you a comfy cushion , wendy ? vs get lost specky , your nat sums are a joke . we wont get anything but anti s n p propaganda . gordon brown has demanded that unflinching position from the corporation and the latest lickspittle gave a lecture almost immediately to parrot the same pro british nationalist anti scottish nationalist as his benefactor expects
6

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 12/03/2008 00:27:49
Ah, he was going for cheap headlines. Not a bad question but Swinney can hardly revel in taxing the rich more can he? He's the finance minister for the whole country. It was a bit unfair.

Will he be so tenacious in asking Wendy if she'll be demanding Scotland's 450M. Or will she be avoiding Newsnight on the subject?

So, Will Wendy be demanding Scotland's money?
7

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 12/03/2008 00:29:25
AM2, how many local income taxes could Northern Rock pay for?
8

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 12/03/2008 00:30:16
What about the low take-up of council tax benefit among the poor because of its complexity?
9

,

12/03/2008 00:34:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
10

The Strategist,

12/03/2008 00:34:52
The Herald says the hole is only £500!

#1 You must have been watching a different channel. Swinney answered the question about three times. Brewer just wasn't listening. Maybe he didn't want to.

11

Conan the Librarian™,

12/03/2008 00:40:48
AM2
Good Evening to you.
But saying a that a policy is unworkable, which is not even in place yet, is jumping the gun a wee bit though?

Oh and the sky hasn't fallen down yet either;-)
12

,

12/03/2008 00:45:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
13

Conan the Librarian™,

12/03/2008 00:45:45
18
Is it weary?
14

subrosa,

12/03/2008 00:48:00
About Newsnight. When the libdems/labour were in power and John Swinney was leader of the SNP he was usually the opposition spokesman against major policies such as this. Yet we've only had Ms Alexander twice on Newsnight since last May. Twice to defend herself, nothing to do with policies. The opposition stick up a stand-in every time.
15

Conan the Librarian™,

12/03/2008 00:50:50
21
Do you mean "heavy".

Tsk. You with your encyclopedic knowledge.An that.
16

gorgie resident,

12/03/2008 00:51:27
as I read this everyone in work will pay 3p in the pound from there earnings surly that means if both parents and say 2 children in the same household are in work and pay income tax they are all going to have to pay dosn't seem fair to me LOOKS LIKE THE POLL TAX IS BACK
17

Conan the Librarian™,

12/03/2008 00:59:55
24
Of course AM2. I forgot about other policies which governments tried to implement.Like council tax...
Just how wise was Thatchers government in that case?

Sorry, I'm just assuming you were/are a thatcherite.
18

Rubbersbutnotrulers,

12/03/2008 01:09:53
Is this the way to Amarillo?

http://www.break.com/index/kosovo.html
19

Rubbersbutnotrulers,

12/03/2008 01:14:50
31

Cudnae gie a hoot whit ye rote at 1:09 niver mind last august, pal.
20

Conan the Librarian™,

12/03/2008 01:19:13
AM2
What is this executive you speak of?

And why do you hate them so much?

(Is it money?)Do you think they will steal it all?
21

,

12/03/2008 01:20:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
22

britsout,

camelon 12/03/2008 01:22:37
lickspittle in the sense of being the subservient creature of the current administration , as in, completely dependent to the powers that rule us ,for his lucrative position , and its continuance . i suppose that was the sense in which i used the word . as for where you should go . i wonder what hen broon would advise??
23

Conan the Librarian™,

12/03/2008 01:22:58
35
Ye ken how tae get fouk oan yer side Scott webb, Eh?
24

Ginster's Pastie,

Grangemouth 12/03/2008 01:26:18
Look closer at it chaps:

As 25 has already commented, a family with several income earners will be paying £££££.

A family of dole bludgers will pay £00000.

Welcome to even more social crutches for the 20% of Glasgow on long term benefits and no need to get the fingers out.

Poll Tax mark 2.
25

Alan Reid,

Aberdeen 12/03/2008 01:36:30
#1, "So Brewer asked him how much somebody on £100K of investment income would pay under the scheme, and Swinney still could not answer him"
How many people do you know that are on this income?
26

Ginster's Pastie,

Grangemouth 12/03/2008 01:41:06
#40 - approximately 1% of the population, who have around 10% of the income/wealth.

Which won't be taxable.
27

,

12/03/2008 01:57:18
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
28

britsout,

camelon 12/03/2008 02:15:26
what their 10% is totally beyond tax ? or just for the 3% that the government is to levy for local services ? i dont feel great that " 1% " of people wont pay because it gives people like you a chance to deny fair taxation to the, by your arithmetic, 99% that remain , i suspect if it was even fiscally neutral a way WOULD be found to collect it. i find it significant you would prefer a costly bureaucracy if it would satisfy an agenda determined solely by politics
29

britsout,

camelon 12/03/2008 02:15:38
what their 10% is totally beyond tax ? or just for the 3% that the government is to levy for local services ? i dont feel great that " 1% " of people wont pay because it gives people like you a chance to deny fair taxation to the, by your arithmetic, 99% that remain , i suspect if it was even fiscally neutral a way WOULD be found to collect it. i find it significant you would prefer a costly bureaucracy if it would satisfy an agenda determined solely by politics
30

Brendan the Scozzie,

The most overgoverned nation on the planet 12/03/2008 02:44:23
The equation is dead simple:

More Government = More Taxes

You should have thought about that before you voted in all these 'wannabees' for politicians.

The losers are all the Scots people paying their hard earned to keep those oxygen thiefs living in their Holyrood Palace.

Local councils, SMP's Euro MP's and London MP's - how many people does it take to represent you and empty the bins?

What a joke.
31

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 12/03/2008 04:05:55
Any taxation scheme will have winners and losers. The council tax (son of rates) is unfair.

Scotland needs less government, a centrally levied income tax is, despit it's faults, the best and certainly most efficient taxation form.

Kind of explains Labour's resistance though dosen't it? - anti efficiency, anti progress and shamefully anti the democratic whishes of the people of Scotland.


32

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 12/03/2008 04:07:58
#45 Brendan

LIT will mean less government, period.

It's the labour party who resist efficient governance.
33

Mallory,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 04:27:07
#45's got it - More Government = More Taxes

Why do we need so many well paid people to 'govern us'? Getting rid of a layer of 'local government' and increasing the public sector retirement age to 65 would save a fair amount. Setting annual targets to reduce expenditure would be another..
34

terry osser,

morden 12/03/2008 05:40:28
its a tax on earned income not on investment income. soon it will be financially not worth working
35

Grahamski,

Falkirk 12/03/2008 06:19:10
Mr Swinney is no fool, he realises this is seriously flawed as a workable policy. It's becoming obvious that this LIT scheme was never meant to be actually put into practice, just another stick to beat the Labour/LibDem executive with. I suspect the more balanced of the SNP policy makers intended to have it removed before they took over in 2011 but to their horror they actually won last year - that wasn't in their plans. Now they're stuck with a manifesto of uncosted and unworkable dogma and bravado as a programme of government. No wonder they jettisoned as much of the truly barking stuff as early as they could. They are left with LIT, very popular undoubtedly but as the weeks and months go on it will become increasing obvious that the sums don't add up. A huge cut in tax where almost everybody benefits but no services are cut or jobs lost? When something sounds too good to be true, it usually is.
Watch out for the SNP's exit strategy - blaming England.
36

nabodican,

Rural Scotland 12/03/2008 06:35:40
If this tax goes through the SNP are likely to lose every last vote of the offshore industry in one suicidal blow.

The way I see it is that we need to decide nationally if local services should be financed according to availability and usage or should they come out of taxes.
If they are to come out of taxes this should be done for the whole country and this will avoid dummy spitting by Westminster.
37

Dave Scott,

Alban 12/03/2008 07:04:36
12 thewitness: Zionist conspiracy huh? Adolf and the Czars must be cheering you on from the dark side. A cheap antisemitic soundbite that reveals exactly what kind of nationalism you have. Have you no sense of history, conscience or truth?
38

Alec M,

Falkirk 12/03/2008 07:39:56
#52 - By even alluding to the posting by this lunatic racist you give 'it', however minimally, a recognition which 'it' does not deserve. ('It' refers to the poster, not its comment.)
39

DonaldK,

Brussels 12/03/2008 07:48:13
To all those getting irate about this new tax being implemented - calm down, it won't be. The Hootsmon has called it absolutely correctly on this occasion - the SNP are waiting for this policy to be rejected by a combination of Holyrood opposition/ HMRC and UK government, and then blame them all for the failure. I'm sure they realise the electoral damage they would be doing themselves if this progressed into actual legislation.
40

Gdgy,

dnudy 12/03/2008 07:52:55
Swinney can't count, can't barely speak on occasions and the SNPites think the exposure of his problems on Newsnight was down to partial interviewing by a pro-Labour interviwer...You could not make it up!

Lets get real and cut the paranoia - the SNP are screwing up and unravelling before our eyes...I guess its time for wee Lec to raise some issues, grab some headlines about.....what Scotland's entry for eurovision would be!!!!
41

David MacVicar,

web 12/03/2008 07:53:20
The gap in funding is worrying but the agents of doom such as AM2 grossly overdstate their case.

EG. from AM2 "killing the idea that the plan could cut taxes." WRONG, the ideas is to redistribute the tax burden more fairly overall than the council tax. It does do that as the institute for fiscal studies has shown.
I think the IFS holds more weight than Britsman or AM2s half truths.

The civil servants produce an estimate of 1.7 Billion raised, that is the only cerditiabmle figure we can take any assumptions from.

The 400Million as part of the block grant, was our money, is our money; and will remain our money. Arguing otherwise without changing the Scotland act is promoting theft. UK will not get to hold onto the 400M for long and just adds weight to total fiscal autonomy for Scotland to put a halt to the revenue rape from Westminster.

Another half truth - costr of new centralised system estimate = 30 Million. How much does the current collection system cost and how much can be saved? Estmimatres please Britsman. Water bills still have to be sent but no more council band admin and billing.

I am glad Swinney was grilled. The SNP have many questions to answer and this tax is far from ideal.

Everyone should remember that we need to compare the SNP proposals to the alternative proposed from Labour:
a) No council tax freeze
b) New banding, needing a rebanding exercise (costing more public admin moneys) and meaning (obviously)an increase in most peoples council tax.
42

GLW,

Tiblisi & Falkirk 12/03/2008 07:56:32
A system raises less money and cost more to administer???
43

brownlie,

Glasgow 12/03/2008 07:57:01
Oh dear Hamish, what a balance article you present. Would the "unlikely" alliance be between two unionist parties who have had years to propose a better alternative - what a surprise. You also mention some unions but could only quote one member of Unison - I am a member of Unison and she certainly did not speak on my behalf or any of my colleagues. Was it just co-incidence that the "independent" opinion was from Price Waterhouse Cooper who have been given millions of pounds of Westminster Government money to advise on projects such as PFI resulting in frequent expensive failures.
44

David MacVicar,

National non allegiance to britain day 12/03/2008 08:04:10
Any shortfall obviously means people are paying less overall and extra cash needs to be found - some can come from the block grant - like the cash found from the council tax freeze. Surely, having a shortfall is far, far superior to a tax increase!!

The difference here is that we have a CAN DO government, far from ideal but a vast improvement.
The BritNats arguments are all based on Can't do, not allowed to do etc

I am sure the 3% figure came originally from the +- 3% tax raising powers. If the SNP had proposed eg. 3.5% the Britnats would be shouting "Britain says Scotland does not have this power, you are not allowed"...various stomach churning stuff.

Well we now have taken 'allowed'. Can do, will do, our money, our country, our government. Get used to it.
45

It's me!,

12/03/2008 08:06:42
All parties know that council tax is unfair because it targets only those who are vulnerable to legal action if it is unpaid. Many high earners pay nothing at all for local services while low earners and pensioners with modest incomes subsidise them. A much better idea is for it to be replaced and collected alongside vat UK wide.

It will cost nothing extra to collect because HMRC will just process a payment;

If you have the money to spend you will pay be it the purchase of a Porsche or a Rangers football top irrespective of income through employment, bank interest, dividends etc;

The money will be allocated to the area in which it is collected, easy enough in these days of postcodes;

If I make a purchase in Lerwick or Truro I will be paying for some small way to the cost of services in these areas and

Costs saved by no longer needing council collection agencies duplicated all over the UK.

All it takes is politicians with some guts to do it. At least the SNP is trying to take a fairer approach to local finance.
46

Sile,

Planet Earth 12/03/2008 08:10:11
Just remember that when your POLL TAX mark2 is worked out and implemented, the Govt in Westminster are your Brethren so when they don't supply the shortfall, blame them and not the English, They are prone to handcuffing pensioners and putting them in prison down here for not paying council tax..
47

HughB,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 08:10:14
As nobody seems to have pointed out, any capital gains over the current threshold (which is probably around £8000) would be liable to pay a large amount in Capital Gains Tax.

This is another reason why Scotland needs full fiscal autonomy, because anybody earning gains from investments in Scotland, pays Capital Gains Tax to Westminster.

Just think about all the other tax we Scots pay to Westminster:

Income Tax, National Insurance, VAT, Stamp Duty, Capital Gains Tax, Inheritance Tax.

You name it, Westminster collects it.

How can they possibly argue that it is too complicated to collect a Local Income Tax, when they already have a massively complex tax system which taxes when we get our wages, and then taxes us again when we spend it.

John Swinney couldn't possibly have answered a hypothetical question without knowing all the details. Anyway, under full fiscal autonomy, Scotland would collect all Scottish taxes, including Capital Gains Tax, which would remedy the example given.
48

HughB,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 08:15:16
And don't forget all the other taxes:

BBC licence fee, road tax, fuel duty, lottery, etc.

They take a massive amount of cash from Scotland, and that's even before oil is considered, and then give us back some pocket money, if we are good.
49

HughB,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 08:16:58
Oh, and the oil windfall tax.

And the tax on all of us Scots for Westminster having to support an English bank.
50

donald,

glasgow 12/03/2008 08:21:55
Hamish's brain missing.
51

Xena - Warrior Princess,

12/03/2008 08:24:45
It's the Poll Tax by another name. I agree with what has been said earlier - the SNP are just waiting for the Holyrood opposition to vote against this. So would I be just as well stopping work? By the time you add on Water rates I am not any better off plus the fact that they can put the tax up at any time to make up for a shortfall.
52

mr angry,

ayrshire 12/03/2008 08:31:32
Whilst supporting the SNP, I hope this one fails, it is very flawed and will end up with a minority being fleeced to keep the wasters and spongers in money. This country needs to realise that people who work hard and make money should be applauded and not robbed, the lazy good for nothing spongers should be publicly embarassed. How is it possible for us to have any unemployed when foreigners can flood in and get jobs. Get the money from forcing the wasters to take jobs and use the tax they pay to improve life for everybody. Maximum payout on dole should be less than minimum wage , no free houses etc , and get your lazy erse out to work within 6 months or it is stopped.
Scotland will never flourish whilst we have so many lazy good for nothing spongers bleeding the hard workers dry.
53

Mike Partick,

Glasgow 12/03/2008 08:41:59
I support independence and the SNP but am not in favour of local income tax. My main reason for this is that it means the end of property tax. The old system of rates and the current Council tax system, at least to some extent, tax people on the value of their property. In a period when we have seen house prices increase hugely this seems no bad thing.

The only value I can see in an LIT for the SNP is that it forces the Treasury to identify clearly everyone whose tax should "belong" to Scotland. If Scotland is to be independent at some point in the future then this separating out of Scottish taxpayers from other UK taxpayers is clearly an important step and LIT provides the possibility of establishing that now and helps clear the way for future independence. This I suspect is one of the key drivers - albeit not openly spoken of - for an LIT.
54

Linda,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 08:46:44
Do the sums (Note pensoiners have higher personal allowance)

Edinburgh Council Tax

Band A £779 Salary per person
£10,000 £ 137
Band B £ 909 £15,000 £ 278
Band C £1039 £20,000 £ 437
Band D £1169 £25,000 £ 587
Band E £1428 £30,000 £ 737
Band F £1688 £35,000 £ 966 (at Higher Tax Rate)
Band G £1948 (or £886 if at 20%) Band H £2338
55

Paul Spencer,

Glasgow 12/03/2008 08:49:03
#50 and #70 Couldnt agree more, this sounds a total nightmare, both in terms of implementation with too many cooks stirring the pot, not to mention the fact that there could be a "brain drain", tho that is more likely to happen amongst middle income earners - teachers, middle management, social workers and police etc,who are hardest hit, the very glue that gives our creaking economy viability. If the SNP had some sense it would stop banging on about oil, and develop a fiscal model that gives us a genuine advantage against our competitors, it is the only way that "indi-sceptics" might come round to a view that going alone is viable, otherwise the "tartan jihad" will sound as ridiculous as those in the Middle East. As somebody who voted yes yes, I feel that if we want independence, then lets go for it, but be warned its not going to be nice, services will be cut etc, and if we fail it is only ourselves we have to blame, I'd rather take that chance than this continual bleating about the English.
56

Sgurr,

12/03/2008 08:51:39
Just as people in the North of England have been moving house to villages over the border for the better services, I expect we will see some very wealthy scots become "non-dom" (to coin a wrong phrase), in the sense that they will live in places like the NE and commute...or they will own 2 houses and be registered elsewhere.

Personally, I know that my household will be stuffed by this tax as we probably creep into the top 10%. I'm not expecially happy about it...but then, all systems hurt some disproportionately. I hope this doesn't hurt Edinburgh's financial services sector. "Move to Edinburgh - get taxed more than you do in London" is not a great slogan.
57

HughB,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 08:53:10
and the headline has got it wrong, don't you think!!!

Should be something like:

"Westminster Threatens to Withold £400 Million of Scots Money if we Want to Scrap the Tax System that they Introduced".

Westminster won't have a snowballs chance in h*ll of holding onto that money, but they will try everything in the book of tricks to delay paying it. IT IS OUR MONEY. If they don't like it, they can lump it, and we go our own way, and take ALL our money back, thank you very much.

Will bendy wendy, nicol sleazin, and boldy goldie press Westminster for our £400 million, or will they support the Westminster cause before the Scottish cause, and help Westminster withold it???
Can wait to see what a total hash they make of it. This will backfire on them BIGTIME!!!
58

HughB,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 08:57:48
Lets remember the poll tax:

There were four of us living in a Band D house, mum, dad, me and my brother, and we were paying over £2000 in council tax.

Meanwhile Lord so and so living down the road and living with his wife in his big castle was paying less than half that.

So it's a bit rich of the unionists talking about what's fair and what's unfair.

Get real.
59

Radical Mac,

The Kingdom of Fife 12/03/2008 08:59:31
A local income tax is the only way forward. It would be harder to dodge than rates, poll tax and the community charge (son of rates). I earn in the higher tax bracket on occasion and would be delighted with the tax. Why should the poor pay the same as the rich this tax is fair. I would encourage the Lib Dems to support the SNP rather than argue over detail. It is after all their policy too. Not too many exemptions though I remember people with artistic earnings of millions flocking to Eire in the past because they were exempt.
60

HughB,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 09:00:44
And yes, it totally ignored ability to pay.
61

Sgurr,

12/03/2008 09:03:00
#80 - the very rich will always find ways around taxation. Those "in the middle" will lose out. I work hard for my money, which is already subject to income tax. Why can't I live in a small house and pay less tax if I want to? To be honest, this might force my retirement.
62

Mike Partick,

Glasgow 12/03/2008 09:03:15
#79 - HughB - that doesn't sound like a good argument to support LIT as that it is exactly the kind of scenario FunkyDunky (#78) seems to be thinking about but under LIT. House prices being what they are, many children are living longer at home with their parents. Thes plans by the SNP are about taxing their income but paying no attention to the value of the property they live in.
63

Linda,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 09:03:22
HughB

To pay £2000 under 3P in £ LIT you would need a combined income of £89,000. So why should you pay the same as a one household neigbour on average earnings.

Scotsman of course does not give examples of the vast majority of winners under LIT.
64

AntiPCman,

12/03/2008 09:05:31
Re 50
I think you have hit the nail on the head. I have a lot of time for Mr. Swinney but he is treading water or is it more like treacle with this policy. It is not thought through because it was always going to be a headline grabber not a serious piece of fiscal sense.
It is a shame because the Nats are thinking out of the box even though they do not know what to do about a great deal of governance - it does show that the standard of senior civil servants is poor - in their advice and experience. Bring back some old heads!
65

Mike Partick,

Glasgow 12/03/2008 09:08:26
#84 Linda - Why should we ignore the value of the property someone owns when considering how much tax they should pay on their wealth?
66

,

12/03/2008 09:08:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
67

HughB,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 09:09:09
#84 Linda,

We paid over £2000 in poll tax, even though we only had one house between 4.

Exactly. LIT is the answer.
68

Miss H,

12/03/2008 09:10:35
It's interesting the perception that a single person earning more than £35,000 or a couple bringing in £53,000 are middle earners.

The median salary in Scotland is £19,282.


69

Linda,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 09:14:50
#86 Mike,

Value of property is taxed through capital gains or inheritance tax.
It is not a measure of current wealth (ie 100% mortgage).
Scottish government should have independence or full fiscal automny then we would get a coherant taxation policy.
70

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 12/03/2008 09:17:03
#6 britsout
"Gordon Brewer's partisan attack"
I watched the interview last night and Swinney looked like a rabbit trapped in the headlights. Brewer asked him a perfectly reasonable question: what about someone who has a £500k house and £100k a year from investment income. How much LIT would he pay? The answer of course is ZERO! So the super rich would pay no tax but a retired person witha taxable pension of £12,000 would pay 25p in the pound. There's fairness for you!

Swinney refused to answer a perfectly valid question at least 6 times and revealed himself as a loathesome, slimy politician - incapable of telling the truth even when it was plain for all to see.

This is nothing to do with being partisan - it is everything to do with Brewer putting these lying politicians to the test - whether Labour, SNP, Fibdem or Conservative. They and all their pals are swimming in a trough of taxpayers money - along with all their 'payroll voters' in the herds of useless quangos that now govern us - including over 120 managers in the NHS in Scotland who now earn more than £100k a year. There is no hope of reform through the existing parties- they are all utterly corrupt; the last bastion is a free press that can ask hard questions. The other last hope is that people like you do not give unswerving loyalty to your own party politicians. If they are dissembling idiots - as Swinney was last night - call them to account. This tax plan is a non-starter as others have pointed out. Watch the Salmond's exit strategy: "It wasnae us - it was them nasty English people wot did it!"
71

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/03/2008 09:18:00
The SNP argue that they are not constrained by the 3% tax varying powers when setting a local tax.

The SNP further claim that the £400m of Council Tax benefit payable under the old system should be transferable to the new system.

I can't say I agree with either of these assertions, but let us for argument's sake assume they are correct.

Why, then, have the SNP set the LIT rate at 3%? We know from their own figures that a 3% rate doesn't generate anything like as much as the current Council Tax rates, and that's not counting the £70 million diverted from central funds to enable the freeze this year. The true shortfall is about £300m a year.

So why not set LIT at a rate which would make it equivalent to Council Tax? Why instead introduce it alongside a massive tax cut?

The only reason I can come up with is that without the tax cut, LIT would be a huge vote loser, as the number of people whose taxes would go up would rocket, and the amount that would be lost from non-taxpayers would become politically unpalatable.

Surely this means that this blanket form of LIT is unworkable in the long term?
72

Paddi,

12/03/2008 09:18:00
What a truly embarrassing performance by Swinney last night.
73

Mike Partick,

12/03/2008 09:19:48
#90 Linda -

You forgot to mention the Council Tax, which, at least partly, is a form of property tax.

Given how much property has gone up in value in recent years and that this has greatly benefitted particular sections of the population more than others, I think we should be considering increasing property taxes rather than getting rid of them.
74

Nikostratos,

12/03/2008 09:20:34
#89 Miss H

I thought it was around £25,000. And anyway what about the self employed how will they pay this tax weekly monthly,yearly.

Let alone how self employed people with small business are able to avoid declaring their real income.. Unlike the employed person on P.A.Y.E.

Most self employed people i know are income rich but tax poor.......
75

Rob,

Moray 12/03/2008 09:25:30
Actually, I found this all a bit of a relief. This is so clearly the work of an incompetent that no-one is going to take it seriously. Swinney is totally clueless and should never be allowed to hold an office like this.

The plan to buy the SNP votes with Westminster money won't work: the real government isn't going to help them implement this, nor is it going to stump up the cash for the deficit it creates. The Liberal support for this shows how cretinous that party really is.

What it has done is guarantee the continuation of Council Tax for at least another 5 years whilst some new fangled socialist alternative is dreamed up. Don't hold your breath but hang on for some breath-taking rises in Council Tax coming quite soon to a county near you.
76

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/03/2008 09:28:58
#96 There are tens of thousands of people who avoid income tax in Edinburgh alone. As a company director I have the opportunity to do so - I could pay myself in dividends, or, as many people do, simply make my major expenses into company expenses - my mortgage paid as office rental, my car paid as a company vehicle, and so on. I choose not to do this because, as it happens, I believe in the taxation system, and don't believe in cheating it. But many people consider such a set up as a standard perk of company ownership.
77

Queen D,

Glasgow 12/03/2008 09:31:45
I must have been watching a different Newsnight last night.
All I saw was an interviewer who would not let Mr Swinney answer the question. I thought him thoroughly rude and badgering.
Bear in mind that the very wealthy do pay tax on their investments and there are very few of them !
I think a local income tax makes sense , in fact I believe that the Tories were split between that and the poll tax. They opted for the poll tax and gave themselves a major problem in collecting it.
78

Queen D,

Glasgow 12/03/2008 09:34:27
BTW, the Herald says 500 million, this paper 700 million and Newsnight 400 million.
I don't suppose anyone knows the true figure??
79

Fairfax,

12/03/2008 09:35:13
Miss H (89): "It's interesting the perception that a single person earning more than £35,000 or a couple bringing in £53,000 are middle earners."

Your point is an interesting one. The key observation is that income in Scotland (and England) is bi-modal: there are, effectively two distributions of income, one of which represents (effectively) an underclass, the other of which represents middle-class and above. Almost all tax paid comes from the latter group, in which £35000 is a mid-range single person's salary. Given this bi-modal distribution, the median statistic becomes much less useful.
80

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/03/2008 09:39:45
#99 Come off it. Swinney refused, repeatedly to answer the question asked.

He was badgered only because he was consistently trying to answer a completely different question.

He would have been better off simply saying that the person given in the example wouldn't pay LIT, and that he looked forward to hearing during the consultation what people felt about that.
81

Xena - Warrior Princess,

12/03/2008 09:44:01
Duncan spot on, and I for one would be extremely unhappy with this scenario. If I stop working will I pay anything?
82

,

12/03/2008 09:47:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
83

Alan B,

12/03/2008 09:51:09
Couple of observations

It is said in the article that the wealthy scots will maybe base themselves for tax purposes in england -
1) council tax in scotland has always been higher than england so why have they not done that already (even higher than in london).
2) Is the difference between the council tax and local income tax significant enough that people change circumstances.
3)if the high wage income earners are to flee scotland will the high investment income earners then not come to scotland.

while i was not pro a local income tax one advantage i can see is it will stop the arbitary rises in council tax we have seen over the last 10yrs far exceeding inflation. If this results in a small tax cut (280million) based on this article that is a small but welcome step in the right direction. Scotland should start cutting the size of public expenditure and stop wasting money, letting people choose how we want to spend our own money.
84

union member,

Glasgow 12/03/2008 09:52:13
#28 Wardog - "trying to muddy the waters of LOCAL Taxation".

Please explain, how a tax set by Holyrood and collected by Westminster is in any way LOCAL?
85

GP,

12/03/2008 09:52:41
2# and the rest of you numpties who think the rich will pay more. The rich can avoid paying that's how they get richer!
Even those on modest incomes will avoid this by using the second home as main residence. I myself shall do this rather than pay this pathetic excuse for not tackling the real issue, that of overindulgent councils and subsidy of the lazy.
86

Linda,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 09:54:22
Xena

Do the sums..

(Note pensioners have higher personal allowance)

Edinburgh Council Tax
Salary per person
Council Tax at 3p in £
Band A £ 779 £10,000 £ 137
Band B £ 909 £15,000 £ 278
Band C £1039 £20,000 £ 437
Band D £1169 £25,000 £ 587
Band E £1428 £30,000 £ 737
Band F £1688 £35,000 £ 966 (at Higher Tax Rate)
Band G £1948 (or £886 if at 20%)
Band H £2338

No system is perfect but until we get independence or full fiscal autonomy we can't have a coherent tax system.

Value of property is taxed through capital gains or inheritance tax. It is not a measure of current wealth (ie 100% mortgage)and governments in past have been scared to do regular revaluations.

87

GP,

12/03/2008 09:54:59
105# you state a couple of observations then provide 3.
Oh well maybe arithmetic is not your strong point.
Why would high income earners come?
What is there to attract them?
There is no UK wide LIT!
Keep taking the pills.
88

Linda,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 09:55:41
I07 You are wrong under SNP proposals second homes will be taxed by local authorities at their full discretion.
89

hibbydoug,

edinburgh 12/03/2008 09:57:17
So if 4 people in my household are working then they will pay the new tax while a family of 4 who are unemployed will pay nothing !!!!, it's just the poll tax all over again-wonder if Sheridan will fight this one?
90

Sedov,

Scotland 12/03/2008 09:58:25
So thats it then, if you are rich, have valuable property and live on your investments, come to Scotland and avoid paying council tax. Yes the council tax does need reforming but the idea of taxing only people who are in the PAYE system is flawed as it will breed tax avoidance schemes by clever lawyers. Also local authorities who have elected representatives accountable to their local taxpayers should administer and set the local rate. however, the best solution is for Scotland to be able to raise its own taxes through a devolved parliament which would also include the power of LA's to set council tax. Nice try SNP but you must do better and stop tugging your forelocks to the rich.
91

GP,

12/03/2008 09:59:51
110# rubbish what full discretion?
No bands anynore so not that so what?
Do we really want to chase away all those who have second homes in Scotland. This is going from the sublime to the ridiculous.
92

hibbydoug,

edinburgh 12/03/2008 10:01:33
Why not put VAT up by 3% then the big spenders pay more-or is that to simple.
93

Mike Partick,

Glasgow 12/03/2008 10:03:21
#112 - Sedov - well said!
94

GP,

12/03/2008 10:04:03
108# your figures must be a joke surely.
Band C & D will more thna liekley have 2 or even 3 earners so lets' not be shy.
That would make their total income >£50k so no savings.
The worst hit by this nonsnse idea will be the working family's and the worst off in society will still pay more in proportion terms than the rich. Even worse the idle rich will pay nowt!!

Oh dear how sad never mind.
As the report card says "Swinney could do better".
95

Linda,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 10:05:13
113

I mean full discretion in respect of whether they are taxed at 50% or whatever and I assume based on their Banding.

The whole matter is up for consultation so you should put your points to the government.
96

Mike Partick,

12/03/2008 10:05:27
#108 - Linda

All you do is trot out the same mantra - how about engaging with some of the problems identified.
97

11+failed,

the pans 12/03/2008 10:06:08
98 Duncan in Edinburgh
"I could pay myself in dividends, or, as many people do, simply make my major expenses into company expenses - my mortgage paid as office rental, my car paid as a company vehicle, and so on"
You really have excelled yourself with this nonsense. I pay 31% tax and NI on my dividend income. HMRC certainly do not allow major personal expenses as company expenses. You might offset part of your mortgage as an office expense but you would then be liable for capital gains tax on your main residence. As for your car paid as a company vehicle, I buy and run my own car as it is cheaper than having a company car.
98

Linda,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 10:07:19
111

Unemployed pay nothing at present.

Can you come up with a fairer systemn?
99

Alan B,

12/03/2008 10:10:39
#109 GP. "Oh well maybe arithmetic is not your strong point."

let me give u an example

person 1 earns 90,000 through payee. person 2 earns 90,000 through investment income. lets assume they both pay £2,000 in council tax currently. Under LIT person 1 would pay 3% more ie £2700 (i am omitting the allowance for simplicity). Person 2 would nothing.

A such person 2 would save £2000 and person 1 would be out of pocket to the tune of £700.

Now please explain ur point!

Mine was simply that i do not think many people will really consider moving to england for the sake of £700. And while i do not think the £2000 also will make people move up here it does rubbish the point made in the article.
100

brownlie,

glasgow 12/03/2008 10:12:07
Tweedmouth et al
So, in your opinion, calling someone a slimy loathesome politician is not being partisan? Brewer was there to ask questions on our behalf - he is not employed to continually interrupt and snigger. Swinney on several occasions had to politely ask him not to interrupt. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the arguement Brewer is not paid by us to ask one question and ignore all the others that we, who pay his wages, wanted him to ask.
101

GP,

12/03/2008 10:12:15
leave the LIT as is for now, bigger fish to fry such as reducing business taxes and income tax for the lowest paid. Remove the redtape that stops pensioers claiming their rights by simplifying the processes of government use the savings to kick start the economy.
Encourage local businesses to stay and grow and employ.
Remove the safety net for the lazy and idle ones, at minimum they should be seen to do voluntary work before collecting any payments.
Sell-off all local authoirty housing to charity housing associations who must then add to the stock with addtional rental properties. Rents to be set by local authorities. This would enable local authorites to reduce their staffing and allow local workmen to start up their own housing services businesses this would encourage many to create small businesses and take on apprentices of all trades.
None of the above cannot be done but it is not sensational enough for politicians who need to service their egos.
102

Linda,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 10:12:30
118

No system is perfect. The very wealthy will always devise ways round any taxation system and sometimes the costs involved in plugging the gaps are not cost effective.

Local Income Tax is fair and simple and cheap to collect at a uniform rate.

Think of all the savings that will be made in local authorities who have to administer Council Tax at present.
103

Linda,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 10:13:14
Must go to work now.
104

JimC,

Kilmarnock 12/03/2008 10:15:40
It found that single people in average Band D homes earning more than £35,000 would have to pay more, and that those in more expensive Band G homes would pay more if they earned above £53,000.

It also worked out that couples in Band D homes would start to pay more once their combined income hit £49,000, while couples in the more expensive Band G homes would pay more if their combined income totalled £75,000 or more.

And what is wrong with that! I have no complaints if those on the NMW and under 14K a year benefit.
105

Highland Mighty,

12/03/2008 10:21:26
Yet more evidence that not only does this end the historic fiscal autonomy and accountability of local government once and for all, giving the SNP absolute power of all public spending (no doubt to the favour SNP councils), but it will also discourage the high-earners that we need for our economy from moving to and staying in Scotland.

Win-Win then!
106

shivago8,

livingston 12/03/2008 10:25:50
You wont notice it if it comes from source and if it catches the people woo are reneging and not paying,Mr John Swinney how soon can you implement it.
107

Country Life,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 10:26:20
Have not the time or inclination to read all the comments above, so apologies if this point has already been made.

The underlying problem is that the Scottish Gov do not have control of the overall tax system. If they did they could come up with a system that raised the right amount of tax fairly, be it through income tax, corporation tax, VAT, CGT etc.

The UK tax system is a mess. As has been alluded to above, the only people who pay the tax they are supposed to are middle income earners in paid employment, i.e. those who don't earn quite enough to allow them to engage in the various schemes to avoid tax. The same applies to companies, there are so many ways of avoiding corporation tax hardly anyone pays what they should.

If a transparent and fair taxation system was introduced that removed the ability for tax avoidance, tax rates could be much lower and the tax burden would be distributed more fairly. Until a Scottish Gov gets the ability to govern it's own taxes to make this happen across the board it'll be impossible for them to come up with anything coherent as anything they introduce will be subject to the same old anomalies / unfairness.
108

Silence of the Yams,

12/03/2008 10:28:05
I'm quite happy with 3p in the pound. I currently pay 1500, that will come dowm to about 850.

Nice one Swinney!!
109

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 10:33:04
This is a classic case of massive negativity in the face of political innovation, all too symptomatic of Scotland's past.

It's not the policy which the opposition fears but the huge wave of public approval and pro SNP surge which they fear, thus the 'cannae be dun' attitude leading to 'let's find as many potential flaws as possible'.

Yes why not, let's do whatever we need to to keep Scots in the dark ages. Whether we are talking down Oil and Gas revenues in the face of dozens of new exploration licenses being sold or a new form of taxation almost designed to help the poorer sections of society.

We could of course just sit back and admire 'Intelligent' Government in action if we can't yet bring ourselves to support it.

110

GP,

12/03/2008 10:33:23
126# more contrived exmples.
Like 118# rose tinted or propaganda specs.
Band D houses tend to be larger more bedrooms that single people do not occupy so why suggets that?
Band D E & F are in the main family residences as is band C to a lesseer degree. So multiple earners all paying would mean they pay far more than the suggested squeued example.
Do not be taken in by this rubbsih folks.
The SNP should tackle the big issues not tinker at the fringes. A band G estate owner can pay zero whilst an overcramped band a or b family with multiple earners will be paying more than they need to. In fact given the subsidies for farming is to stop going to the tennant farmer and be paid direct to the estate owner they could end up simply raking in cash and paying out nothing.
Scandal!!!!!!
111

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/03/2008 10:35:19
127. Unionist doom-monger

you have carelessly omitted enough apocalyptic doom from your post on what will happen if Scotland reforms local council funding to a fairer system.

Perhaps along with £5000 tax bills if we vote SNP, you could use a bit more imagination this time and give us a pithy wee unionist tale of destruction involving horsemen, plagues and, if you feeling up to, locusts if we adopt a fair LIT?

Daily reading doom and gloom from unionists (AM2 foretold of a collapse ih house prices and mass sales/ exodus if the SNP won last year) predicted from every sensible policy the SNP introduce, I am forced to wonder if they cower under their beds all day, too scared to leave their houses?
112

GP,

12/03/2008 10:36:15
131# innovative thinking is required but this show a complete lack of innovation. Income tax is not new or innovative. What would be innovative would be think about expanding the economy thus improving everyones life not simply moving one tax system to an older tax system, that is completley the opposite of innovative.
113

Stephen Cowley,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 10:40:06
It's unusual for a government to write off a major source of income and does not address the issue that property is a form of wealth that is harder to hide than income and there already are rebates for those demonstrably on low income.

I support the government on the whole, but I wonder if they won't back out of this, as they did with writing off the backlog of student debt. It is reasonable that council tax is too high, but that is being addressed with the freeze.
114

Highland Mighty,

12/03/2008 10:46:55
How is this a much fairer system when our most successful have to pay so much more than everyone else for the same services?

With CT, the poorest got the rebate and paid very little if any at all. This NIT (how is it 'local' if the SNP in Holyrood have absolute control?) is not going to change their income by more than a few pounds a week.

However, our best and brightest are going to see their taxes increases and their net income shrink. Where is their motivation to stay in Scotland instead of moving south? Especially when the Tories win the next election and start really cutting taxes?

(And is there a chance the nats can avoid repeating the same old baseless and unsubstantiated SNP propaganda for one day? Almost certainly not.)
115

Conan the Librarian™,

12/03/2008 10:48:31
134
Ayrshire
Perhaps they are pinned under large pieces of unionist sky?
116

Doh,

12/03/2008 10:48:55


It is very sad that people are arguing against the more equitable LIT becuase the "superrich" earning
£100K of investment income would save, say £2000 of council tax.

I make that a marginal rate of tax of 2% - I must admit that does sound good. Just another example of the unfairness of our tax system.

But two wrongs dont make a right.

I would hope that all those socialists would be asking themselves why £100K of investment income is NOT being taxed by central government. If that was invested in ISAs then the poor soul would have a saved about £ 2 million. At about £7000 a year that would have taken nearly 300 years.

So, lets get the question put to Labout why is someone recieving £100K of income from investments not paying tax - no wonder the rich are getting richer and the poor poorer under this Labour government.
117

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/03/2008 10:51:22
138. LOL. Conan, indeed. But how many times can the unionist sky fall in on them? Can they not be issued with re-inforced unionist umbrellas or something to allow them to go about their business while cowering in mortal danger at the ensuing armageddon resultant from each sensible SNP reform?
118

Conan the Librarian™,

12/03/2008 10:52:10
137
"How is this a much fairer system when our most successful have to pay so much more than everyone else for the same services?"

I'm sure that argument will go down well with your tax inspector:-)
119

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/03/2008 10:52:29
137. Yes, the richer will pay a bit more than the poorer. Thats why it is fairer. Is called progressive taxation.
120

A Clamper,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 10:57:47
Well that about says it all about todays "Labour" party. LIT would mean those on low incomes would pay less and those on high incomes would pay more. There was a time not so long ago when that would have been applauded by Labour, but they have now moved so far to the right that they might as well join the Tory party.
Roll on Independence.
121

GP,

12/03/2008 10:58:52
139# why use such a large figure?
anyone with investment income full stop would not pay the additional 3p in the pound whether that is 10k 20k 50k or 300k.
No one has addressed the earlier point if I am to pay equal rates then I DEMAND equal services. So if you stay in an outlying are say the highlands you are expected to pay the same for services that are nothing like on a par with a city.
Once again a flawed system that is merely tinkerring around.
122

GP,

12/03/2008 11:02:18
142# lets' get one thing clear the rich will not pay more at all.
The average family on average incomes with more than 1 working will be no better off and in fact may well be worse off.
123

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/03/2008 11:04:41
145. No, the top 10% of earners will pay more.
124

n/,

Perth 12/03/2008 11:06:23
Let's just go for independence and when Sir Shaun returns to live in Scotland as promised he can bankroll the lot of us!
125

Highland Mighty,

12/03/2008 11:06:56
142. The richer will only pay a "bit more" than the poorer for the same services?

Just a "bit more"? What, a couple of pounds then?
126

Doh,

12/03/2008 11:08:03
#137 HM

What a fantasy world you live in.
Just yesterday George Osbourne was saying that the Tories have no plans to cut tax.

Your maybe missing a couple of points - the brightest and the best can take pride if the fact that they are helping to sustain our economy and support the less blessed. Or since they are earning so much more money they will actually still have more to spend at the end of the day than the shiftless poor whom they despise.
127

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/03/2008 11:12:39
148. 3p in the £1 more on their taxabale income, obviously, minus their current council tax. Are you struggling to grasp the concept? Does your unionist calculator just keep coming up with " £5000 tax bill, warning sky falling" when you try to do the calculation?
128

Edward,

12/03/2008 11:12:54
The fact is the HM R&C do have the mechanism in place to collect additional taxes for Scotland
It shoudl be remembered that as part of the Scotland Act that set up the devolved parliament this was part of the package to enable tax raising measures if and when required. This paper seems to have a bit of memory loss when it suits and a certain AM2 seems to revel in miss information when he comes out of his bunker!
Another fact that seems to have been missed is that you still have to pay tax on share and investment dividends, even the lucky lucky few that have £ 100,000 worth of investments
The good thing about the new LIT is that pensioners and other low income groups wil not have to pay
Something thats better than the curent arrangement where by pensioners are expected to pay out regardless of howlow there income is!
129

David t,

Dunfermline 12/03/2008 11:19:50
A little bit of honesty from The British nationalists would help in this debate.
Fact- The LIT tax is a fair system
Fact-The CTB is already allocated to Scotland as part of the block grant.
Fact - To apply LIT to those with only investment income would cost £20 to collect every £1. Not very efficient.
Fact- Most people would be better off than paying the Council Tax.
130

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/03/2008 11:23:24
If the LIT is such a good idea, why introduce it with a tax cut? Why not set it at a rate to generate the same revenues as the Council Tax? Why does it need propped up with block grant funding?
131

Toom,

12/03/2008 11:28:41
Depending on the savings/investment split, the few people who have £100K pa investment income will currently be paying around £15,000 pa tax on interest/dividends. And many with that type of money will also have pension annuities, which are taxed as earned income, so will pay any extra on that. They are also somewhat unlikely to be claiming benefits, or otherwise be a charge upon the central or local government.

The proposals are to make the tax 'fairer', a relative, not absolute, term. It will be that for the majority, relating it more to the ability to pay.
132

Transparent?,

Scotland 12/03/2008 11:29:15
AM2,#7 & #8. Well done!

I know what it's like to issue a warning and then be ridiculed by arrogant fools who ignore it. Your joy comes with time and you can now chuckle at the abuse you have received on this forum - whether the SNP proceed with LIT or not. Everything happens for those who wait.

Unlike the SNP, you are not a disappointment.
133

oddoneout,

12/03/2008 11:32:05
It could be just me, but with regard to the CTB, I was under the possible mis-apprehension that this stood for Council Tax Benefit......given to cover the costs of people who were unable to pay Council tax due to unemployment etc. Under the LIT everyone can "afford" the tax (as it is based on income)so the double whammy of not being given because everyone can now afford it and also because there is no council tax, therefore there can be no council tax benefit. Somebody please prove me wrong
134

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 11:33:05
#152 - spare us the "British nationalist" jibes, please. It's the economy, stupid.

LIT will not tax the rich to help the poor. The sums simply do not add up even assuming Westminster coughs up the disputed £400m, which seems unlikely in the real world.

Under LIT, less well-off families with three or more wage earners at home (and there are a lot of those thanks to the state of the property market) will be caned. Middle income professional couples (and there are a lot of those in Scotland's central belt) will be caned. Based on the minimum 3p figure, any D Band household with a total annual income of over £50K will be worse off. Single occupancies will score big time of course, but they are a minority which is not representative of how most of us live.

Under the current 3p proposal and based on a 10-month payment year, we (E Band flat in west central Edinburgh) will pay £286 per month in LIT as against £190 Council Tax as at present. Admittedly we are above average earners but we are not *huge* earners and we don't live in a big house, just yer average Edinburgh tenement.

And if, as seems likely, the 3p rate has to be increased to fill the black hole in Swinney's sums, the pain will be even worse for even more people.

If the Nats press ahead with this, they are doomed at the ballot box in 2011. This will do for them what the Poll Tax did for Thatcher. The best they can hope for is that the Lib Dems refuse to play ball and they can withdraw now with a bit of dignity.

The Nats have played a pretty canny game up till now, but if they really think they can make this one work, they must be starting to believe their own publicity.

135

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/03/2008 11:35:51
155. We are all still waiting for AM2's predicted house price collapse amd mass selling (predicted for last May) and the £5000 tax bill for voting SNP.
136

Toom,

12/03/2008 11:36:35
#145 The idea is that more individuals people - the users of local resources - will pay according to their income. Yes, some households with several incomes will pay more. A house with one resident may well pay less. But the system will reflect better their likely use of public services, and their abilities to pay for them.
137

HughB,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 11:41:04
It's just the same with pay rises: If everybody got a 2.5% increase, then those on £10000 a year are going to get a much smaller increase than those on £100000 a year.

Lets stick to percentages for LIT, and stop complaining that people on higher salaries are going to pay more. Another thing, people in the higher earnings bracket rarely just get small pay rises like most other people - they also get bonuses, share options, bigger percentage pay rises.

Just think about politicians - they can even decide their own salaries, so they won't have any problems with LIT.

House prices are misleading. Most people buy a house to live in. It is only the minority who have enough spare cash to see houses as investment opportunities.

Lets get back to reality: why should somebody who has lived in the same house for the last 30 years or so have to pay more just because somebody comes along and decides how much their house is worth now. It's only worth what the owners can afford, and not what price some rich kid with money to burn could splash out on it.
138

Grahamski,

Falkirk 12/03/2008 11:41:27
David,
Not so much a fact

Fact-The CTB is already allocated to Scotland as part of the block grant.

more a schoolboy howler. This isn't part of the block grant, it is a reserved benefit passed to local government for distribution. To claim it as part of the block is just plain wrong, no matter how hard the SNP attempt to misrepresent treasury documents..
139

A Clamper,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 11:44:29
There will be winners and losers but the "vast majority will be better off". That'll do for me until they "tax the rich until the pips squeak". Next.
140

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/03/2008 11:44:41
161. Grahamski, do you expect us to take advice on fiscal matters from Labour, given they couldn't keep track of £950 donations without "unintentional law breaking" "administrative problems" "mix ups" "communication breakdowns" and a report to the fiscal?
141

Grahamski,

Falkirk 12/03/2008 11:49:01
Ayrshire,
I don't expect anything but lies and misrepresentations from you.
142

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/03/2008 11:49:37
#162 You see that's the part which for me makes the whole thing laughable.

How can you introduce a change which will make the vast majority of people better off, without massively reducing the amount of money you bring in?

The answer is, as John Swinney has proved, you can't. The price of making the vast majority of people better off is that this tax will fall short of the revenue from Council tax by at least £280 million a year.

Why not set it at a rate which would close this gap? It would still be a progressive tax, it would still protect those on lower incomes.
143

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 11:53:19
#159 - this just ignores political reality. It really is the economy, stupid. At the ballot box, voters simply do not care about fairness, they care about how their wallets are being skelped. The plain fact is that an awful lot of the middle income voters who supported the Nats in 2007 will under LIT see themselves worse off come 2011 if these proposals become reality.

But John Swinney is nobody's fool and Alex Salmond is no kamikaze pilot. The claim in the story above that:

"there is a feeling at Holyrood that the Scottish Government is waiting for this one to fail so everybody else, particularly the UK government, can be blamed. That way, Mr Swinney can keep the party on side, blame the UK government and protect the economy – not that he would ever admit it, of course"

may well be the most accurate scenario. Not that any of the Nat activists posting here would ever admit it, of course :-)
144

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/03/2008 11:54:06
164. Well Grahamski, you are a new Labour apologist. Lies and misrepresentation is the currency you deal in - dodgey dossiers, ludicrous excuses for law breaking. (And illegal Jersey notes as well of course)
145

AJM,

12/03/2008 11:58:52
This is not a local tax it is a National tax. Therefore can the SNP please change their name to the Scottish Localised Party. It is more of the attempt by the SNP for centralisation.

It is perception that is going to win the day not whether the tax is fairer or not. At the moment the SNP are handing the whole thing to the opposition on a plate.
Swinney's performance last night was awful, it is as if he had no faith in it himself. At one point he seemed to almost agree that it was at odds with the party's philosophy. If it is a corner stone policy of the SNP, I wait to hear from AS, throwing his weight behind Swinney. I doubt it will happen, AS more intersted in sniping about Britishness than to get his political hands dirty on a policy that is struggling to get off the ground.
146

Grahamski,

Falkirk 12/03/2008 11:58:55
Ghengis,
Absolutely, we see the nationalist administration squandering civil service resources in pathetic attempts to manufacture conflict with our government in Westminster. I can't help feel that they've over played their hand on this one. The lights have gone on and Mr Swinney's hand is in the biscuit jar.
147

Grahamski,

Falkirk 12/03/2008 12:03:38
Ayrshire,
You really are a broken record. Your party has been exposed as destructive and girning charlatans and what do you do?
If it's not racist attacks on the English you have a pop at the Labour Party. Pathetic.
148

Strathturret,

montrose 12/03/2008 12:05:58
The Brewer question on Newsnight.

It took me a while to figure this out; maybe I’m getting senile.

If you are earning £100K from your investments you are wealthy? You must have £2M or so in investments yielding 5%? You are probably over 50. If you have stopped working what will your well paid financial advisers have advised you do with your wealth? Yes, get a pension. This is an excellent tax shield for 40% tax payers. So our mythical person in the big hoose with £100k investment income will be drawing a big pension, which is taxable and hence will he/she will pay his 3% whack on the pension income.

I think that is what John S should have said?

149

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 12:06:39
#167 - all the mudslinging in the world still won't make Swinney's sums add up. Come 2011, the voters won't care about some minor financial irregularities surrounding campaign donations freely given. They won't even care about Salmond's allegedly dodgy planning deals up north.

They will care about whether they will be better or worse off under LIT. And many of the section of the population who actually do vote will be worse off, or will perceive themselves as being worse off.

Elections are lost with this kind of own goal. You can't win a majority by pandering to minorities - oldest rule in politics.
150

AJM,

12/03/2008 12:06:49
#166 Ghengis agree to a certain extent, but that group affected of middle income voters will be watching this with interest and will make their minds up over the proposal.
Your view that Swinney and AS are no fools and they would not make a mistake is to ignore political history. Thatcher, a similar politician to AS in some respects over the poll tax, in the end it did not matter whether it was fairer or not.
My guess is that to do the most damage to the SNP the smartest route will be for the UK government to spin out any refusals.
151

Grahamski,

Falkirk 12/03/2008 12:08:45
#172
He could even have told the truth - the LIT paid would be a big fat ZERO.
152

Aýrshire Scot™,

12/03/2008 12:10:13
172 Strathturret You are going senile!

What about someone with investment income of £100K from shares and no pension?
153

G,

dundy 12/03/2008 12:14:33
So "Swinney's solution" (there's a new oxymoron)is to deliberativly and knowingly underbudget for political reasons (it will be popular) then go cap in hand to Westminster for more money when we need it!
Of course he could blame those horrid unionists but planning your policy based on this premise that the Union will come through is rather obvious and frankly dishonest
Well ...the SNP did promise a different sort of politics!!!! Inept budgeting, exposing our schools to risk for political expediency!
154

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/03/2008 12:24:32
171. AM2, but you keep posting that the SNP are pursuing their independence agenda.

So lets gets this correct - you predict collaspe of house prices and exodus, if the SNP had a majority and pursued their agenda, and even though the SNP are carrying out their independence agenda (planened referendum etc) there is no collapse of house pricing and exodus? Odd. One might think you engage in typical unionist scare mongering?

155

Grahamski,

Falkirk 12/03/2008 12:27:25
Ayrshire,
You really can't help yourself, can you? You completely misrepresent what AM2 says, why should he bother replying? I'd be as well asking you to defend your racist views or enquire if you have stopped beating your wife...
156

GrahamH,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 12:30:36
We had riots the last time poll tax was being introduced, i.e. a system that replaces a tax on a household with a tax on the individual.

#166 - they have tried that blaming others tactic with trams - SNP voted trams through when SNP Executive could have stopped them (regardless of vote of the members in the parliament). They are blaming others for their action in approving trams and for possible non action in progressing this tax on individuals.
157

mesmiths,

fife 12/03/2008 12:33:07
LIT is a fairer tax, if you don't want it you are either rich and greedy or mislead by dodgy reportage.

Labour's threat to steal the 400 million should be another nail in their coffin. AT LEAST IT WOULD BE IF WE HAD AN INDEPENDENT MEDIA, OR JUST ONE SCOTTISH OWNED NEWSPAPER OR TV STATION. But we don't- so the government will be up against it. Good luck to them!
158

John, W,

12/03/2008 12:34:42

The sooner scotland is part of europe and thus has the protection afforded by its policies against the little stalinists of the central belt which have always dominante scottish politics. Given their head, the likes of Sweeney will empty scotland of initiative and but for the EU, we will end up like some dirt poor east european country in a generation.
159

Luke Skywalker,

Edinburgh, United Kingdom 12/03/2008 12:40:45
Swinney is a failed leader. He will be a failed financier.
160

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 12:41:44
#182 - nice to see a return to true Nat values, ie anyone who disagrees with their view must be wrong, evil or misled by the media. Oh and let's have a pop at Labour while we're here.

Won't wash, my friend. It will take more than your assertion to convince that LIT is fairer (however one defines fairer). Some proper fiscal arguments would be a start, though most of us know what we earn and how many are in our households and are quite capable of doing the sums for ourselves.

As indeed can John Swinney - I am not convinced that he is wholly committed to this project, seems more committed to getting his own activists off his back by paying lip service to an undeliverable Manifesto pledge.
161

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 12:46:07
#183- "Given their head, the likes of Sweeney will empty scotland of initiative and ... we will end up like some dirt poor east european country in a generation"

Aye, if the Nats get their way we are destined to become the next Slovakia or Slovenia. Free of the English oppressors, free to be as poor as we like.
162

oddoneout,

12/03/2008 12:48:41
just had another thought....only one more left for the year now. The CTB is currently being paid out of our tax/NI, so as a taxpayer we are already susidising the people who don't pay all or any of the current council tax. so population 5 million, people paying income tax for the sake of argument is 4 million, so taxpayers are forking over on average £400 per head for this. So currently we are paying an income based council tax anyway, the more you earn the more you pay as a subsidy, the less you earn the less you pay. I'm sure that Westminster will be able to find a disatrous IT project to spend the extra 400 million on, and quite happily watch Scotland pay for it with their LOCAL TAX!!
163

oddoneout,

12/03/2008 12:49:38
sorry maths brain has gone wrong
164

HughB,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 12:52:08
Once again, the Scotsman newspaper with a total misrepresentation of reality!!!

We know where £400 million of the £680 million is: Westminster has it, and it will have to hand it over.

We also know that once full fiscal autonomy is achieved, then there will be no further interference in Scottish matters by Westminster, although saying that, there have been numerous events throughout history where Westminster has tried to interfere or directly blockade another contries economy.
165

Anon1234,

12/03/2008 12:57:03
A lot of people think that very few people will be receiving £100,000 of investment income, however this would apply to any family businesses were most of the earning are paid as dividend rather than salary, for example a contractor operating as a one man limited companies. A typical contractor turning over £125,000 a year might only pay themselves minimum wage with the rest of their earning gained via dividend. As only salary would be subject to local income tax, they would be substantially better off. I really don’t see how this can be fair.
166

HughB,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 12:59:44
#190
So misguided!!!

How exactly do you put a measure on "hard work"?

The people in sweatshops around the world work a lot harder than some rich kids in the city, but don't get even a decent fraction of the "share touts" salaries.

Perhaps some better measures would be "play hard", to find out how many "toys" the "hard working" wealthy have, and to measure quality of life, and disposable income.
167

A Clamper,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 13:05:51
#165
"The UK Government has a duty to pay the £400 million".
Problem solved. And if they weasel out of that, just tax the rich some more.
168

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 13:12:38
#192 - "We know where £400 million of the £680 million is: Westminster has it, and it will have to hand it over"

Even if that was true - and as other posters have pointed out, it simply is not - there is still a £280m hole in Swinney's sums. Please do not insult our intelligence by spouting the "this will be found from economies in the Public Sector" (ie cuts in either jobs or services) line.

It will take something more than blaming and picking yet another fight with Westminster to balance the books on LIT. But maybe the Nats are not very interested in balancing the books anyway, it is the fight with Westminster they are after.

It is a dangerous political strategy. We know that the Bravehearts love all this "ditch the b----d English oppressors" guff, but the rest of us are pretty bored by it and would much rather see a bit of stability in Scotland.
169

DonaldDon,

Scotland 12/03/2008 13:14:36
As we can see from loads of the posts here this LIT does not seem to catch everybody, but this is not the real problem. The real problem is that we have a halfway house where 2 seperate governments are fighting over how to raise revenue. So, how do you solve the problem. 2 options really: 1. Full independence 2. Go back to Westminster rule. Personally its number 1 for me. What annoys me about devolution is that we are paying for 2 governments - one in London, and one in Edinburgh - at least if we were only governed from Edinburgh we wouldn't have anybody else to blame but ourselves, instead of trying to pass the buck to Westminster. LIT is a fairer tax, but as the Scottish Government does not have full control over fiscal measures it can't make any other changes that will allow it to capture the £125,000 self-employed contractor in the net. Better just to leave things as they are until you know you can actually make the changes. Less time wasted, less money wasted, and less stories for the hootsman to put its Unionist slant on. Try to sort things that you can change rather than arguing about things that you can't.
170

Busymale,

12/03/2008 13:16:18
#193

Your point applies to so few its a narrow argument.
171

HEN BROON 5,

12/03/2008 13:17:38
Once more I have to point out what a liar this AM2 troll is. His agenda from the time he arrived on here has been;

1) Talk down Scotland and her legitimate struggle for independence at every opportunity, by deploying reams of statistics, circular arguments and lies and propaganda.

2) At every opportunity take remarks made on a public forum by people he manages to wind up and imply that these remarks reflect anti-English racist sentiment that can be applied across the board in Scotland.

All of the above is done whilst ignoring the racist abuse hurled at Scots by the unionist media, in particular in the telegraph and The Mail and Sun, he also will not make comment on abuse from politicians and the English chattering classes. And denies any unionist bias on for example Newsnight Scotland.

The hardest thing to tolerate are his cynical lies, here is what he said:

79 AM2,Glasgow 12/04/2007 19:09:45
#76 Dick

You've got to be kidding!

Long term, of course, that may turn out to be the case. Who knows?

But if by the night of 4th May the SNP look to have gained the most seats there's a high chance that a very significant number of houses will go on the market within days. Under those circumstances, I think we could see a significant price slump very quickly indeed.
172

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 13:22:04
#197 - "they're just a bounch of oddballs posting rubbish on a noticeboard alongside all the other internet addicts of the world posting rubbish about poodle contests or god knows what"

Whereas the Bravehearts, with their knee-jerk apologism for King Smug's every twitch and grimace, are Scotland's chosen people and incapable of being wrong or arrogant on anything. What a clown you are.

And #195, you're just an idiot. Go away.
173

brownlie,

glasgow 12/03/2008 13:22:53
John W and Genghis

do you mean the kind of initiatives that left this country stagnating over eight years of a Labour administration where council taxes went through the roof, where we, as tax-payers, had to finance an illegal war that cost thousands of lives but filled the pockets of the Labour leader. That is the kind of land you want to continue living in - well, I don't.
174

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/03/2008 13:29:10
201. Hen Broon

how odd, AM2's twisting and conditional doom-mongering above bears little relation to what he actually said when engaging in typical unionist fantasy scare-mongering about house prices and sales i fthe SNP won most seats.
175

,

12/03/2008 13:34:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
176

Lennox11,

Coatbridge 12/03/2008 13:36:42
As a 60 year old man and I have a better chance of becoming pregnant than Swinny has of geting the council tax rebate from London, the man is an idiot,
177

morris,

edinburgh 12/03/2008 13:39:38
50 Grahamski,Falkirk 12/03/2008 06:19:10

"The SNP policy of a local income tax was never meant to be implemented,and seizing power was not what they had in their plans"

YOU ARE BARKING !
Away an stick your heid in a pot o boiling water and make soup wi it!
178

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/03/2008 13:42:27
#210 He clearly threatens you big time given how much effort you expend on your continual character assassination. And if he is a troll, why is it that he hasn't been forced to change his username through being banned, while you have been through numerous logins because of your abusive postings?

Your argument really is laughable. I remember during the election campaign when AM2 was in full flow, and I was posting too, you ranted and raved about how we must be paid Labour party hacks because we had access to such detailed research, and then that we must be Scotsman employees because we had access to records of who posted what and when.

Then AM2 pointed out to you how Google is able to search web sites like scotsman.com very easily, how simple it is for anyone to review previous messages on other threads, and how your paranoid accusations had absolutely no basis in fact.

You need to stop the character assassinations. You come across as a bully and a nutter. If you want to persuade people of your views then argue rationally. AM2 is as entitled to his views as anyone else. Stop behaving like a child.
179

morris,

edinburgh 12/03/2008 13:44:51
211
The council tax rebate is legitimately yours irrespective of what system is employed in Scotland.The Local Income Tax actually saves poorer families money,which is why 85% of local government taxation is already RAISED by PAYE!
IF Westminster refuse to pay it,claiming it is ring fenced it becomes a subsidy from Scottish taxpayers to the rest of the United Kingdom .You will still have it taken from your wages in Scotland.They do not propose to reduce Scotlands contribution to the exchequer.They only intend to reduce what you get back of tour own money!

No wonder we lost the oil !
Swinney is not an idiot but you definitely are!
180

HEN BROON 5,

12/03/2008 13:45:25
All that being said can some one answer me a couple of questions please.

1) Would a sales tax not have been fairer and easier to administer, it would be based entirely on ability to pay?

2) Why is it that people earning 100k pa from investments are assumed to be out side of the tax system. I have pensions and investments although not 100k level, and I have to pay tax on them so where is this coming from?
181

okanaganguy,

kelowna, b.c. canada 12/03/2008 13:46:33
It may be time to carefully read what Price Waterhouse had to say. They are one of the most respected accounting firms in the world today. They crunched the numbers and gave an independant report on their findings. I for one, would be more compelled to believe what they had to say. regards
182

Grahamski,

Falkirk 12/03/2008 13:47:07
#212
Typical nationalist approach. You misquote me, then attack me for your misrepresentation. Disgraceful but sadly more and more typical of nationalist posters who seem to rely on lies and misrepresentation.
183

HEN BROON 5,

12/03/2008 13:56:08
213
Duncan in Edinburgh,
12/03/2008 13:42:27


Ooooh, you are a one, defending the indefensible. Because someone puts up robust argument and gives as good as he gets, you decide to get your claws out.

I have on more than one occasion burst your moaning bubble and you don't like it, I nearly said, "up em" but stopped in time.

The kind of data deployed by your best est friend is not available on Google containing as it does every anti-English remark and every insult rightly heaped on the head of this odious troll.

However I don't recall drawing my stick along your cage, your faux indignation is utterly meaning less to me, now away back to your solitaire.

Do you hot desk with the troll?

Are you in St. Andrews House?

The Scottish Office have sod all to do these days so I suppose the good father has to keep you up to something. Ooops there I went again, what am I like.

ALBA GU BRATH.

Missing you already.
184

Memyself&I,

12/03/2008 13:58:26
Oh dear, #64 says it all. Outrageous. I've now stopped reading this thread.

The numbers do NOT stack up, simple as that. Even the SNP have admitted this.
Its a dead duck,..end of. Why waste more time and money trying to push this through, not gonna happen.
Far too complex to implement.
185

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 14:01:27
#206 - "Arrogance is not in the nature of the independistas"

We can see that from your posts. Fair, balanced and free from all bile or bias.

"I think you'll probably end up enjoying independence when it comes"

I think I am unlikely to be given the opportunity, any time soon, to compare, particularly if Swinney's LIT proposal gets anywhere near the statute book or is representative of the divisive fiscal policies which the Nats plan to promote.
186

Miss H,

12/03/2008 14:03:30
Dear me. This is a classic Scotsman story and there are many classic unionist responses too.

The Scotsman says there is a hole in the sums as though they have ‘discovered’ that and claim John Swinney has ‘admitted’ that the Government will have to put £280 million extra per year into the local government allocation as though he was trying to deny it!

The whole story is based on the consultation paper published yesterday - which has all the facts and all the sums that people could want.

But how many people on here giving their opinions have even glanced at it? Not many I suggest.

Equally, there appears to be a series of people who watched an edition of Newsnight which took place in a parallel universe where John Swinney was pinned to the wall about the vast numbers of people who live in £500,000 houses and have an annual unearned income of £100,000 who will not pay local tax,

How many people come into that category?

Do people think it would be a good use of taxpayers money to pursue the very small number of people who come into that category even although it would cost more to do that than would be gained if they paid local tax? If your answer is yes don't stand for Parliament!

Or do people support imposing local taxation on all savings income – even the very modest savings of pensioners?

As for Tweedmouth's example of the pensioner with an annual income of £12,000. Under the SNP's proposals they will pay a total of £89 per year in local tax or £7.41 per month. How do people think that compares with what this imaginary pensioner pays in council tax now? And how do they think that pensioner is going to vote in 2011?

For the party that gives a stuff about them or one of the parties that doesn’t?
187

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/03/2008 14:05:45
212. Morris, vegetable soup?
188

Miss H,

12/03/2008 14:08:24
211 No he's not an idiot - he's just not a loser who accepts it every time a door gets slammed in his face. I believe you will see the SNP get their way on this which will paradoxically increase your dislike of them because you resent success.
189

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/03/2008 14:11:49
#224 Come off it Miss H!

"The whole story is based on the consultation paper published yesterday - which has all the facts and all the sums that people could want."

Where exactly does Swinney lay out how much of a tax cut he is proposing? Where does he state the £280 million deficit figure? We had this conversation yesterday, we went through the document. He sets out hardly any figures at all.

It is most unreasonable of you to suggest that the consultation document "has all the facts and all the sums that people could want" when it has no such thing.

It comes down to that same question though: why 3%? Why not a level which would raise the same revenues as CT? Why build a tax cut into this proposal if LIT is inherently fair? And most important of all, what is to be cut from the national budget to pay for this local tax cut?
190

Miss H,

12/03/2008 14:12:29
186 Don't worry even if that happened the Poles would soon move in. They are not bothered by Scotland becoming independent.
191

morris,

edinburgh 12/03/2008 14:17:33
156
Its part of total taxation collected from us tax payers,and that includes PAYE paid in Scotland (nd other taxes also arguably).In Scotlands case we should
consider it to be taken from Scotlands taxpayers,and then redistributed to councils.This is merley part of that local governmnent process of financing local
councils which happens in England and Wales also,
although part of Scotland's total budget is ring fenced for rebates purposes.
IT IS NOT EXTRA MONEY. ITS PART OF WHAT IS LEGITIMATELY YOURS AND is also paid to Englands Councils and Wales.


Changing how we intend to spend these Scottish taxpayers taxes does NOT justify removal of that sum !Thats THEFT !

I see no circumtances under which you can justify delibrately hurting your own countrymen financially.Westminster does not give you anything They merely return taxes which you paid to them
and you will still have to pay this money and will get NOTHING BACK !

This will then be a further subsidy which has been
ripped off from Scotland,and the reason is because we were dumb enough to allow this.
The Tories opposition to fair taxation I can understand They are just Ferengi without the costumes.
The Labour party are telling everybody that we will all be the hghest taxed people in the UK and we will feel it in our pay packets.
If you dont pay the Council Tax since it NO LONGER EXISTS then do the sums.
Of course you have to be able to do arithmetic to understand this !

Nearly everybody is better off.Wealthy families are the exception. What is wrong with that for God sake?
192

Miss H,

12/03/2008 14:18:46
229 Oh Duncan get a grip. In the context of the Scottish Government's annual budget of £30 billion £280 million is not that big a deal. However it is a sum of money which can make a huge difference to indivuduls and families on lower incomes.

Government does not always have to SPEND money to improve the lives of people at the bottom end of the income scale - sometimes they can achieve a better outcome by allowing those people to keep more of what they earn.

Do you really not get that or are you just arguing for the sake of it?
193

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/03/2008 14:21:09
#231 If as you say you don't pay the Council Tax since it NO LONGER EXISTS then one would hope that your claim for Council Tax benefit would award you with zero pounds because Council Tax NO LONGER EXISTS.

Apologies if I missed the requisite number of exclamation marks there.
194

Miss H,

12/03/2008 14:22:57
Hey I'm all for immigration including the English. I was just pointing out that if as you suggest, the English start to move out post independence it will make more room for the Poles. I am sure they would appreciate getting a bedroom to themselves and paying less tax.
195

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/03/2008 14:23:15
234. I congratulate you on your punctuation restraint, and your restraint in your eh-ing?
196

Miss H,

12/03/2008 14:24:22
234 What happens in Northern Ireland Duncan? What benefit do people apply for there if they can't pay their local taxation and does Westminster fund it?
197

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 14:24:22
#228 - No, Miss H, I am afraid that he is an idiot. Anyone who comes out with such naive drivel is an idiot.

I genuinely hope that the SNP do manage to implement LIT as that will ensure their defeat in 2011. But unfortunately I doubt not only that they can do so, but that they even want to do so. This current proposal is more about appeasing SNP activists over an unsustainable Manifesto promise than it is about genuine change for Scotland. Salmond and Swinney both know a vote loser when they see one, and are both well aware that they are unlikely to get enough support in the SP to push LIT through anyway. They can't rely on their new pals the Scottish Tories this time, and the Greens won't buy it either. The Lib Dems are setting impossible conditions. So it is effectively dead in the water, and King Smug is mightily relieved to know that.

Please spare us the Braveheart rhetoric - losers, doors slamming etc - as all that "English oppressors" nonsense is very tedious. The UK Prime Minister, the Chancellor and half the Westminster Cabinet are Scottish, hardly a sign of a people held under the yoke in slavery. Mel Gibson is only an actor you know, and Sean Connery loves Scotland so much he chooses to live and pay his taxes abroad.

I neither dislike nor resent the SNP, but I have seen precious little evidence of any substantive success so far. They will need to do more than pull a few chickens out of hats to win a second term, I am afraid, far less deliver their independence Agenda.
198

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/03/2008 14:25:31
#232 Ha ha ha. The ultimate get-out clause.

So £280 million in lost revenues because of a desire to sell a politically unpalatable policy to the electorate by means of a bribe is "not that big a deal".

I must remember that. Because that means that 2 years worth of "not that big a deal" would pay for the trams in Edinburgh. And less than two year's worth would have paid for the Scottish Parliament building.

£280 million "not that big a deal". Good grief.
199

Miss H,

12/03/2008 14:28:10
238 Ah you are another one like the Master who claims an insight into what SNP activists want even though you don't know any.

Are you perhaps one and the same?

I agree that all that English oppressors stuff is boring and rubbish and I really wonder why you unionists insist on bringing it up all the time along with Braveheart which was a really terrible movie.

It's time to let go. Move on and join the 2st century why don't you?
200

,

12/03/2008 14:28:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
201

Miss H,

12/03/2008 14:31:07
239 No it's not. Much more than that has gone into various 'anti poverty schemes' over the years. Seemingly it never occurred to anyone that you can make greater inroads to reducing poverty by not taking money away from poor people in the first place.

But that must just be our mad SNP ways eh?

202

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/03/2008 14:31:24
#241 Tell me, do you indulge in vindictive personal attacks because you enjoy them, or because you have nothing constructive to say?

Have you ever considered arguing on matters of policy rather than personality?
203

AJM,

12/03/2008 14:31:34
#224 I do not think it is just the Scotsman that is saying there is a problem, most SNP posters over the lsat few weeks after been trumpeting the Herald for its pro SNP stance and they are also saying there is a problem.

It is not about the sums it is about peoples perception of trust, the SNP are beginning to loose that trust over finance. Fiona Hyslop is in a right mess over students.

Now Swinney is wading in with a tax that seems to be in a mess before the fine detail is looked at. I was in favour of a local income tax. However Swinneys version is not local, it is national and it appears to have been cobbled together.

His assertion last night that 4 out of 5 people would be better off left me thinking, if I was the 5th person I am going to be paying for the other 4, so how much is it going to cost me?

SNP posters keep saying what a bright and able politician he is, well if he was so bright he would not be trying to fool us with the 4 out of 5 will be better off. It reminds me of the poll tax claims.
204

Miss H,

12/03/2008 14:33:39
243 You're from Northern Ireland AM2. They don't have council tax there. What form of local tax do they have and does Westminster pay any benefit to people who can't afford to pay it?
205

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 14:35:58
#240 - you're coming to this debate very late in the day, Miss H. Obviously King Smug's press office don't show up for work till well after noon :-)

You were the one who brought up the Braveheart stuff by the way - losers, doors slammed in faces and all that guff. I have been in the 21st century for quite a few years - seems to me that it is the Nats whose strategy is based on re-running Culloden over and over until you get a different outcome. Surely mature Government has to be about a bit more than picking fights with Westminster over the Lewis chessmen.
206

Miss H,

12/03/2008 14:37:13
245 You will surely have some idea of whether you are likely to pay more under it?

Are you rich?

207

morris,

edinburgh 12/03/2008 14:38:10
234
Council Tax Benefit is part of the Local Government Total allocated to each council across the UK.
The money paid by Scottish taxpayers WILL NOT REDUCE as you well know.If we are still expected to contribute the same amount in taxation to Westminster,then we are still entitled to recieve the same amount and pulling a cheap stunt like giving it its correct name and then
trying to justify its removal is uneccessary and unjustifiable,but it is a good plan for greedy baskets to get out of fair taxation of course plus the SNP need to be stopped somehow,and we all know how low the UK is prepared to sink when it comes to oil !


The educated Unionists may he able to pull the wool over the undeucated Unionists eyes,(they have been doing so for long enough),but dont expect everybody to swallow it.

Just content yourself with being a majority for as long as it lasts,because its finished after the Tories are elected once more at Westminster.

Scottish Labour will destroy themselves after the election. They were warned what would happen.It will happen.
208

Miss H,

12/03/2008 14:38:39
247 I have never mentioned Braveheart once or the Lewis chessmen. That's a lie.

You are the Master and I claim my booby prize.
209

Miss H,

12/03/2008 14:39:27
250 But do you know the answer? What are the arrangements in Northern Ireland?
210

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/03/2008 14:39:29
#242 So you are suggesting that this is a deliberate tax cut - that the SNP is in "Tartan Tory" mode and implementing tax cuts to spur economic growth?

If so, why have we not heard a peep from John Swinney on that? Where is the press release trumpeting "SNP slashes tax burden by £280 million", and more importantly where is the accompanying explanation of precisely what expenditure of £280 million a year is to be slashed from the budget to pay for it?

Why, instead, are we not even being told the amount of the tax cut by the SNP? Why, in fact, is it not billed as a tax cut at all by the SNP? Why, in fact, does the most that has been officially said on the matter boil down to a single paragraph on page 8 of the consultation which says, and I quote:

"The amount raised through local income tax will not be identical to that raised through the council tax. There would need to be an adjustment to local authority funding after the change to take account of the difference and ensure that public services are properly funded."

And that's it.

Can you explain this?
211

AJM,

12/03/2008 14:43:40
#247 Ghengis, quite right, what was AS doing yesterday but wading over Britishness again, on the day when a change in the tax in Scotland that could affect everyone in the country. LIT or NIT not important enough for AS?

Oh yes it is but he is trying to stay well clear, I am quite sure that Swinney cannot be happy with the backing he is getting. But then has there been any love lost between the two.
212

Miss H,

12/03/2008 14:43:56
254 No. The people who will benefit the most will be pensioners. They won't be the only ones to benefit but they will be the biggest group.

I don't think anybody expects them to rush out and start up their own businesses in celebration of a cut in their local tax bill. But given the increases in the cost of living, particularly food and fuel bills, I think it is the right thing to do.
213

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/03/2008 14:45:51
#253 I don't know the arrangements in NI, I'm sure that you do and you will no doubt tell us.

But I do know the arrangements in Scotland. When the previous administration introduced free care for the elderly they went cap in hand to Westminster to try to claim that the amounts that used to be paid in means tested benefit to enable free care for the most needy elderly should continue to be payable.

And I know that Westminster said no. Because if a benefit is paid according to the bill that a person is faced with, and the Scottish Government acts to ensure that no-one receives such a bill any more, then that benefit payment cannot possibly be paid out any more.

The cannot receive a Council Tax rebate unless you are in receipt of a Council Tax bill. There can be no simpler or more robust piece of logic.
214

Miss H,

12/03/2008 14:46:14
257 Hallo? I think you will find that it was Gordon Brown who was wading in about Britishness yesterday suggesting that all 16 year olds are forced to swear an oath of allegiance to Britain and the Queen. All Alex Salmond said was that it is an idea of Monty Pythoneque stupidity. Do you disagree with that assessment?

215

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/03/2008 14:50:32
#258 I think you know that you didn't answer the question.

If it's a £280 million tax cut, what £280 million worth of expenditure is coming off the budget?

If it's a £280 million tax cut, why isn't the SNP saying so?
216

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 14:52:47
#251 - "I have never mentioned Braveheart once or the Lewis chessmen. That's a lie."

Didn't say you did. I said that you started all the guff about loser and slamming doors, which you did. Not all posts are literal, but I suspect that you got my drift. Some Nats are overtly anti-English, others use more coded language but the underlying message is the same. We're not fooled.

"You are the Master and I claim my booby prize."

No idea who is the Master, but you are certainly a booby so far as I am concerned.
217

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 14:53:51
#261 - This is what I hate most about Nats - the way they mock any Scot who dares not to see the world exactly as they do, which is proof of the fact they don't give a damn about Scots nor consider us "serious" enough to be called Scots.

Disgusting is indeed the word. Especially when it comes from people so deluded as to believe the lie of English oppression they've been spoon fed all their whole lives. Pathetic.

See what I did there,Jackie Priest?
218

morris,

edinburgh 12/03/2008 14:54:08
247
The SNP are a party who argue the economic case for Scotland, and are very much responsible for what is known to be a financially sound future.Even Labour admitted this(but most Labour activists are too stupid to know what their own party has said).

The historical arguments have precious little to do with economics,which is why Unionists like to engage us on such.They know they will get their Union Jack Butts kicked on economics .

The SNP participate in historical debates on an individual basis. The party however has little interest in history for political purposes,and apart from wishing to repeal the Act of Union of 1707,but retain the 1603 Act in that we recognise the monarch as head,we really have no more nor less interest
than any other has in ones own country and its history.
Look at the SNP membership handbook which details what exactly the SNP is about.It favours independence and looks to the future.Its the Unionists who favour the Status Quo !If anybody is guilty of seeking to discredit anybody through history its the Unionists.
We don't need to , we have the economic strength on our side and all three parties have admitted that Scotland would be one of the highest standard of living nations in existence.Because we respond individually to remarks,but it does not mean we are living in the past,nor does it mean we wish to.Of course if you really believe that it is the case,then thats your problem.
219

Miss H,

12/03/2008 14:55:24
259 Fair enough nobody is arguing that you should get council tax benefit when you don't pay council tax. You should get local income tax benefit instead.

It's just a name Duncan. When the community charge became the council tax the people who used to get community charge benefit got council tax benefit instead. The name changed - the benefit stayed. Likewise, in Northern Ireland they don't pay council tax, they pay domestic rates. So they don't get council tax benefit they get domestic rates relief.

What's interesting about Northern Ireland is that social security is devolved. I didn't know that before but it is. That obviously provides a solution to this situation wouldn't you agree? If we devolve council tax benefit to the Scottish Parliament we can change it to local income tax benefit without having to involve Westminster at all. Less hassle all round.
220

Miss H,

12/03/2008 14:58:25
262 Hallo Duncan - we spent the entire election telling people it was a tax cut!

It’s Time for the Biggest Tax Cut in a Generationsnp - 2007-04-16
The Leader of the Scottish National Party, Alex Salmond, today set out the SNP's plans to benefit over half a million Scottish pensioners by abolishing the unfair council tax and replacing it with a fair system, based on the ability to pay.

The plan will be the biggest tax cut in a generation.

Mr Salmond set out the SNP's proposals for government during a campaign visit to Dundee, where he visited Maryfield Bowling Club.

The announcement by the SNP came the day after Labour's Mr McConnell was asked twice to state whether he believed that the Council Tax is fair, and twice refused to say that it is.

Speaking from Dundee, Mr Salmond said:

"The SNP want to introduce a fair system of paying for local services, and that means abolishing the unfair Council Tax and replacing it with a fair system, based on the ability to pay.

"Our plans will allow the SNP in government to cut the overall burden of local taxation by £450 million. This is the biggest tax cut in a generation, and will benefit both our hard-pressed pensioners and middle Scotland.

"Under the SNP's local tax system, over half a million pensioners will pay absolutely nothing. A single pensioner will be on average £300 a year better off, while a pensioner couple will on average be £540 better off. Taxpayers on low and middle incomes will on average benefit by between £260 and £350 a year.

"Unlike the SNP's plans, the Labour Party's proposals for tinkering with the Council Tax are vague and ill-thought out. Despite repeated requests from the SNP, Labour still cannot say how many households will benefit from their plans, and how many would pay more.


"The only thing clear from their plans is that it will require a revaluation, which meant that in Wales a third of Council Tax payers saw their bills rise.

"Based on what happened in
221

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/03/2008 15:00:42
#267 I entirely agree. Just as individuals would be in receipt of council tax benefit according to a means test, so individuals should be in receipt of local income tax benefit according to a means test.

One thing though - since LIT is a progressive tax based on income, nobody will need to claim LIT benefit.

Glad we cleared that up.
222

A Clamper,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 15:05:37
#203 Ghengis you are well named. I have no intention of stopping commenting on anything I may wish to comment on, but unlike you, I can't spend all day on here. Roll on Independence !
223

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 15:06:27
#266 - did you type all that with a straight face?

"The party ... has little interest in history for political purposes"?

"The SNP are a party who ... are very much responsible for what is known to be a financially sound future"?

"all three parties have admitted that Scotland would be one of the highest standard of living nations in existence"?

If you really believe any of that is actually the case, then it is not my problem, it is yours. This started as a serious debate about the financial viability of LIT, but some of the Nat contributions are now descending into farce, I am afraid.

You can probably get away with that sort of stuff on the floor of an SNP Conference.

224

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 15:09:39
#270 - You are waiting for independence, I am waiting for Hibs to win the Scottish Cup. I expect my dream to come true before yours :-)

I have no intention of stopping you commenting, you're a secret weapon for your opponents.
225

AJM,

12/03/2008 15:12:54
#260 Miss H thanks that is my point, he could respond in seconds to some idea of Britishness from Westminster but found himself all day unable to help Swinney as far as I can see.

Perhaps AS is nostalgic for the Westminster village.
226

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 15:13:53
#268 - what's wrong, Miss H, was your press release too big to fit into a single post? :-)
227

morris,

edinburgh 12/03/2008 15:17:10
269

Correct no one needs to claim because PAYE is already guaranteeing fairness.Scotland therefore has no need to contribute this money to Westminster then, since we will not be getting it back.Thats fair also.
I dare you Unionists to try taking this money and refusing to return it.What a gift to the SNP.
.You will accelerate independence through your own arrogance far more than the SNP could ever manage on their own .Please please Westminster,be as stupid as at least 1 million Scots will think you are.
228

A Clamper,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 15:21:31
#274 - I couldn't give a t*ss who wins the Scottish Cup
but it's always nice to see the odd underdog like Livingston winning a national trophy. If the last hundred years are anything to go by you may be in for a long wait though. I expexct Independence within 10 years.
229

AJM,

12/03/2008 15:21:38
#272 example of a forward looking SNP supporter believing the political landscape of Medieval Britain is so so relevant to today. I take it you and your party are for leaving the European union then? Scots have anything in more in common with Spain for example.

Or shall we look at a map of europe and see if the island that scotland forms part of, has any other countries on it and lets pretend that they are foreigners and come straight to the conclusion that we have more in common with Johnny Finlander.
230

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/03/2008 15:24:51
#278 And there is the fatal flaw in your argument, and that is where we start going round in circles. Because Scotland's block grant is calculated largely according to Barnett, not according to how much tax we Scots pay into the pot. And yet any discussion of how to fairly divvy that up leads us inevitably to "independence would sort the problem out once and for all".

If the block grant was based on tax receipts generated in Scotland, it would be utterly unfair, because it would be far too low. That is why Barnet exists.

The logical conclusion is that the only fair way to introduce LIT is to do so across the whole of the UK. And I think the SNP are well aware of that, and that is why they have chosen it as yet another policy to generate friction in the union.

It's sad, and the Scottish people will only stand for it so long.
231

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 15:29:32
#279 - "I expexct Independence within 10 years."

Ah, an oldie but goldie - free by '93, all over again.
232

oddoneout,

12/03/2008 15:31:56
Miss H

"Seemingly it never occurred to anyone that you can make greater inroads to reducing poverty by not taking money away from poor people in the first place."

The main people who will win from this (the ones in poverty) are the people that who have never earned any money and have to be given handouts to keep themselves alive. I pay my taxes and keep the situation going, which I don't mind doing. There but for the grace of god go I. But to accuse others of taking money off them that is rightfully theirs is claptrap of the highest order
233

Miss H,

12/03/2008 15:32:50
275 Swinney doesn't need help. Gordon Brown does but that's another story...
234

Miss H,

12/03/2008 15:34:42
283 That's a great way to talk about Scotland's pensioners. They fought a war for you etc etc.
235

oddoneout,

12/03/2008 15:37:36
doing a swinney, answer another question without answering the one you were asked, are you now saying that all pensioners are living in poverty?
236

Miss H,

12/03/2008 15:37:36
269 You are beginning to scrabble around a bit there. Losing it slightly. I'm sure you will come back with something more convincing but I have to pop out now.
237

Miss H,

12/03/2008 15:42:14
286 No - that us why the SNP does not propose to just bring in an arbitrary discount for pensioners as Labour/Tories do. Some pensioners are extremely rich but many more are not and are crippled by the proportion of their income that goes in council tax. Of course pensioners are not the only people living on low or fixed incomes and they will benefit as well. It will also help to make work pay for people trying to get off benefits and into paid employment which will help reduce dependency and increase self sufficiency.
238

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/03/2008 15:42:59
#287 On the contrary, I think you hit the nail on the head. People who are unable to pay due to low incomes should be in receipt of LIT benefit, just as people who are unable to pay due to low incomes are in receipt of CT benefit.

Surely you're not suggesting that LIT benefit should be provided to people not currently being given CT benefit?
239

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 15:47:43
I don't know why we are arguing about whether this tax will work or not. Irrelevant as it is never going to happen anyway. The last thing Swinney and King Smug want is LIT actually to happen, in the form of the current proposal at least.

This LIT comes to pass, kiss a second term in 2011 goodbye.
240

Miss H,

12/03/2008 15:51:42
Well yes - far more people are entitled to council tax benefit than claim it. It's a complex systen. With a local income tax it's an automatic process determined by the income tax threshhold. The money would go straight to local authorities as part of their allocation. That is actually what happens now - people who receive council tax benefit never actually get any money in their hands you know.
241

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/03/2008 15:58:41
#291 It's nothing to do with people who are entitled to CT benefit but don;t claim though, is it.

You are arguing for the CT benefit money to instead be spent on lowering *everyone's* LIT. You are arguing for a means tested benefit to become a rich man's tax cut.

That is a pretty extraordinary policy. Is it SNP policy? It must be, I suppose, since they are arguing precisely that the CT benefit money should be used to enable them to charge only 3% LIT to the rich, instead of the more realistic 4 or 5%.

How astonishing. Party of social justice? Take from the poor and give to the rich - Salmond as a modern day reverse Robin Hood.
242

AJM,

12/03/2008 16:01:35
It is a strange one this a party that has come to power through devolution, immediately on gaining power tries to get rid of a devolved tax and replace it with a centralised national tax.

Calls it a local tax, however it seems to me if it quackes like a duck it is a duck.
243

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 16:06:19
#292 - "You are arguing for a means tested benefit to become a rich man's tax cut"

Just so. The Nats' LIT is another one of these schemes which, like free personal care and abolition of tuition fees, in theory look superficially fair but when examined closely turn out in practice to be a subsidy for the higher earning middle classes and the overtly wealthy.
244

Miss H,

12/03/2008 16:07:21
No Duncan the SNP is arguing that the money which is allocated to Scottish local authorities to compensate for those whose incomes fall below the threshhold which makes them liable to pay council tax should continue to be allocated to Scottish local authorities to compensate for those whose incomes fall below the threshhold which makes them liable to pay local income tax. That is the basis on which the money is paid now. The eligibility rules for council tax benefit are exactly then same as those for pension credit, income support and jobseekers allowance - which are all income-based benefits. That is why it is a nonsense to say that you can't have an income based benefit with a property-based tax. The benefit is paid on the basis of income threshholds not property values.
245

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/03/2008 16:15:19
#295 Much as you might wish to redefine things in those terms, that is not the case and I'm reasonably sure you know it.

CT benefit is means tested per person as part of the benefits system, not per council as part of the funding system.

According to DWP the calculation is based on:

"1. Money you and your partner have coming in, including earnings, some benefits and tax credits and things like occupational pensions
2. Your savings and your partner's savings
3. Your circumstances, such as your age, the ages and size of your family, whether you or any of your family are disabled, and whether anyone who lives with you could help with the rent."

You may have thought it was based on income alone, but please don't continue to claim that now that I have enlightened you.

It is becoming more and more clear why John Swinney hasn't pitched this as a tax cut for middle Scotland - it's because he knows he is funding this tax cut with money taken from poor people's benefits, and even he can work out that that wouldn't go down well in Freuchie.
246

,

12/03/2008 16:18:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
247

westview,

Living hand to mouth. 12/03/2008 16:19:37
Why on earth do we have a local tax/council tax system anyway? Most money for local services comes from the central taxation system anyway. All we are doing is paying ,stupidly, for TWO costly tax collection systems. Let central government pay out %100, instead of the present %80 support to local government. That can be given to Scotland or Yorkshire or London areas etc. The politicians can earn their wages by arguing over what to spend this on. Like a mini Barnett formula block grant, which is the present system supplying much of Scotlands cash.ONE inland revenue collection system not two would save a fortune to be spent on real needs. Watch out tho' , Gordon Brown might purloin the savings ,just like he pirated my pension savings. £700,000,000 a year, by some estimates, out of pension funds when he was Chancelor.
248

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/03/2008 16:23:55
#298 We have a local tax system because we have local government, and democracy benefits from local government with fiscal responsibility.

If we didn't have local taxation, local government would spend all their time inventing ways to highlight alleged shortcomings in their central grant, and scoring political points off the party in power at Holyrood, rather than getting on with the job of running our towns and cities.
249

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 16:24:21
#297 - "It seems to me that this problem in itself is a very good reason to abolish council tax"

It is no more a valid reason for abolishing the Council Tax than the fact that the Revenue sometimes give people incorrect tax codes is a valid reason for abolishing Income Tax, or the fact that television sets sometimes malfunction is an argument for abolishing the TV licence.
250

,

12/03/2008 16:24:52
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
251

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/03/2008 16:25:43
#300 Watch out for debate on those policies at the next SNP conference...
252

Miss H,

12/03/2008 16:28:29
296 Which Duncan brings us back to the point I initially made. You do not need to means test local income tax because the entire income tax system is a form of means test. The Government already knows how much we all earn and how much benefit we all get just as they know how many people are entitled to council tax benefit - and how many actually get it.

If you want to go out and defend a means tested bureacratic benefit system which taxes savings but fails to help many of those who are entitled to get it then be my guest but don't pretend that you are doing so in the cause of social justice.

What the SNP is proposing is not perfect, because they are working within the constraints imposed on them by devolution. But it is a damned sight simpler and fairer than whate exists now and I think you know that.
253

,

12/03/2008 16:30:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
254

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 16:31:37
#302, Duncan - I wonder if they have worked out yet that under the Barnett formula Scotland actually gets more back than is collected from Scots in tax?

This is not a subsidy, the same applies to the North of England and is a consequence of the disparities created by the overheated South East.

But it will matter quite a lot if Scotland ever does become independent and has to raise all of its expenditure via taxes on Scots.

The Nats will no doubt argue that oil revenues will take care of that.
255

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 16:34:35
#304 - yes you can, you can appeal against the banding. If it is clearly wrong it can be amended.

If it is a matter of interpretation that is another matter, but the same applies to one's Tax Code - the revenue has the final say on what is allowable and what is not.
256

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 12/03/2008 16:35:43
#55
How about Wendy Alexander singing "It's my party and I'll cry if I want to"
257

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/03/2008 16:37:16
#303 So who do you think should be in receipt of LIT benefit then?

The central issue here is that as these plans currently stand, whatever the rate of LIT, those worst off will not have to pay a penny. That is as it should be.

But unless the SNP are prepared to set LIT at a rate equivalent to Council Tax, then they are wide open to accusation that they are funding tax cuts for the rich with money from the benefits system.

Why would I end up paying about a third less in LIT than I pay in council tax? Why would I end up benefiting from the £400m to be clawed back from the benefits system? I don't qualify for benefits!

Why do the SNP want to fund tax breaks with benefits money?
258

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 16:38:47
#303 - income tax is not a form of means testing. It takes account of only one factor, how much is earned. It takes no account of the level of committed outgoings.

The Government knows how much we earn. It has no idea how much we need to spend or how we spend it.
259

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 16:45:56
#308 - "Why do the SNP want to fund tax breaks with benefits money?"

What they are actually doing is the worst of all possible worlds. They are clawing back the £400m to help fill the black hole in their figures, and the less well off who would normally benefit directly from that £400m will not be getting it. But neither will it make enough of an impact upon the tax levels which the better off will have to pay to make LIT an attractive alternative to Council Tax for them.

It really is a lose, lose proposal and it has a whiff of Electoral suicide about it. No wonder King Smug has been keeping his head down.
260

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/03/2008 16:47:38
308. An interesting point, if the 3p level is far short of current council tax funding?

Letting councils set the rate would perhaps avoid these issues?
261

Miss H,

12/03/2008 16:57:36
308 Who do you think? People who don't pay income tax who are largely the same group of people who are entitled to benefit.

That is not actually the key group though. Let's leave the very low income groups to one side. The point about getting the benefit money continued is so that we can continue to fund councils, it's not about using benefit money to subsidise the rich. It's actually pensioners with a modest pension or the working poor who will benefit most from this - people on minimum wage jobs or whose pension takes them just above the line where they become liable to pay full council tax. There are a lot of people in that position who are also being hit with increases in their fuel bills, food prices and other increases in the cost of living.

309 The only difference is that council tax benefit takes account of savings as well. It is a deliberate decision I believe not to levy LIT on savings as the Government doesn't want to create a disincentive to save.
262

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/03/2008 16:58:45
#311 And would maintain fiscal responsibility in local authorities.

But if they set it at a rate that brought in the equivalent of council tax, there would be a *lot* more unhappy punters.
263

Miss H,

12/03/2008 17:08:54
311 There is no way that it could be set locally because Westminster would not allow that. There's no point even having that discussion because it can't happen within the current settlement.

The choice is basically to go with this or keep council tax. I've heard the arguments about re-banding and all the rest of it but the problem remains that you can only re-band houses, you can't re-band people. You are still left with the situation where people can be living in houses banded at the same value who are in completely different financial circumstances but that is not taken into consideration.
264

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/03/2008 17:08:58
314. Duncan

but local councils are funded by tax payers today. The total funding is not being changed (other than the SNP increases set out in budget already) - why there should be ALOt more unhappy punters does not follow. SUrely we can get to a funding system which is much fairer than the council tax, which is patently unfair?

I am open minded about the arguments for setting LIT locally when the system in place to allow some local accountability for flexxibility indeed to increase spending.
265

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 17:09:36
#312 - no, the £400m is not being distributed as benefit, it is being put into the central pot to contribute towards a shortfall, to balance the books. The view seems to be that the LIT itself will be self-regulating as regards its impact upon the less well off, and that is simply not the case because household poverty cannot be measured in terms of income alone.

And the £400m will not in any case provide relief for anyone who is less well off in terms of income, whether above or below the previous threshold for benefit. It will have a modest impact upon the overall tax burden in that it is £400m which will not need to be otherwise raised by taxation or funded by cuts in services, but that small gain will go to all taxpayers across the board. Indeed simple arithmetic dictates that those who pay the most tax will get the largest proportion of it.

What we are getting here is Natanomics, an economic theory which clearly does not conform to normal arithmetical principles.
266

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/03/2008 17:12:44
#312 You make my point for me. The people who should be benefiting from the CT benefit will already benefit from the income-related nature of LIT. So you are actually wanting to apply the CT benefit money to people who previously would not be in receipt of benefit - whether you pretend that they are all borderline poor pensioners, or accept that many will be perfectly well-off families.

However you dress it up, the plan would be to fund a tax cut for the rich partially with benefit money. And of course partially with some other unspecified money. An unspecified amount of it, every year.

Great policy.
267

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/03/2008 17:14:46
#315 Ha! But the Scotland Act does not allow the Scottish Parliament to very higher rates of income tax either - this hasn't stopped Swinney including this in his policy with a hand-waving excuse!

You seem to fall back on what the settlement currently allows only when it suits you.
268

Edward,

12/03/2008 17:14:55
#281
The block grant is NOT based on the Barnet formula
try and get your so called facts right!
Between you and the other unionist labourite joker AM2
you fill these forums up with ill informed claptrap
Its amazing that you and AM2 were as quite as church mice when articles such as Brown conspiring with Menzies Campbell to install a First Minister and government other than the SNP. or when Cairns was spouting drivel
It comes to mind that perhaps you are actually employed by Labour to pour out rubbish in support of the Scotsman and EEN articles that are obviously anti SNP Govenment
269

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 17:17:13
#313, Jackie Priest - I have been in those countries - indeed far from being an insular Brit I have been in many, many countries across the globe - and you paint an overly rosy picture of them as filled with happy, shiny, prosperous people. They are actually pretty down at heel and with all the usual social problems including drugs. You really mustn't just make things up to support your own point of view.

However you do not represent mainstream Nat opinion. I notice that even your own side are too embarrassed by your extremist ramblings to offer any defence of your position. I shall do likewise from now on and leave you to inhabit your strange parallel universe. You clearly have nothing sensible to contribute.
270

Edward,

12/03/2008 17:18:47
The fact of the matter is that the system that the Scottish Government want to set up is based on ability to pay and not the theoretic value of the property
It will be of benefit to pensioners and the low paid, something that Labour and there supporters no longer believe in!. Im glad we have a Scottish Government that has a decent social concience, one that Keir Hardie would be proud of! as opposed to the New Labour anticts of champagne socialists who have lost sight of their roots. Being that Labour is supported by the Tories in being against the LIT, about says it all!
271

Miss H,

12/03/2008 17:18:56
317 That is exactly the point I am making Ghengis. Council tax benefit is not distributed as a benefit. It goes direct to councils to compensate for people who can't pay the council tax. The SNP is just wanting to continue that. The £400 million will continue to serve the same purpose that it serves now.

Obviously you are not going to have the same administration of benefit as currently exists for council tax but I think you would not find many people who would have a problem with that. If someone already gets jobseekers allowance or pension credit it is difficult to see why they need to go through an entirely separate application process for council tax benefit when eligibility rules are exactly the same but they do. A complete waste of time and resources.

272

Stephen fae Scotland,

Folsom 12/03/2008 17:20:42
AJM at 168 is correct - this is not a "Local Income Tax" - it applies across scotland, its a uniform income tax.

The reason council taxes vary across Scotland now is because services vary and the needs for them vary. Why should someone in the middle of the countryside pay the same for services that somone the the middle of Glasgow pays? Clearly what they get in return is vastly different. This is absurd and totally unfair.

The Gnats harken back to pre-Union days - and this is their fiscal way of bombing Scotland back to the seventeenth century. Wise up Scotland and
BOOT OOT THE GNATS.
273

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 17:21:31
#321 - Jackie, mate, you are mad and rabid. You offer only trite slogans and abuse where others at least offer coherent arguments. Your position seems to be - Nationalism good, everything else evil.

Spare us all please. You are not landing any blows on us and you must be embarrassing your own side.
274

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/03/2008 17:21:57
#316 The reason I think that there would be a lot more unhappy punters is that a lot more people would end up paying more than they currently do, to balance the large number of people who would end up paying less than they currently do. If the rate ended up at 4.5%, for example, which is a very conservative estimate of what might be needed to make it CT-equivalent from a revenue point of view, then the percentage of people at the top ending up paying more goes from 10% to probably 35% or more, and the folk at the top would really start to hurt. 3% is a very carefully chosen rate, and I think the success of this LIT plan rests on national rate setting and benefit funds co-option. As a result, I think it's bad policy.
275

Miss H,

12/03/2008 17:23:24
319 No there is just a limit to how much you can push things. I genuinely believe that the Treasury will agree to what John Swinney is proposing because it's not actually going to make any difference to them. It will balance out as cost neutral for them. We couldn't say the same about a variable LIT and as things stand we do not have the infrastructure in Scotland to do it ourselves without a great deal of expense.
276

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/03/2008 17:24:00
321. Jackie

well said. From saving A&E departments, abolishing prescription charges, abolishing road tolls, bring in road-equivalent ferry pricing for the Western Isles, keeping children's cancer services in all 4 Scottish cities, cutting business rates, and now this reform to a fairer council funding, the SNP government have shown themselves to be dynamic, positive and increasingly popular, with a clear drive and ambition to make Scotland a better place.

It is said that 99% of unionist contribution, in politics and on here, is just negativity and doom-saying. The total poverty of ideas and aspiration from Unionists was shown by Labour and the Lid Dems abstaining on the Scottish budget - not an alternative, no substantive amendments, and in the end not even enough of an opinion to cast a vote.



277

Stephen fae Scotland,

Folsom 12/03/2008 17:29:32
Ha ha ha - 312 Jackie Priest isn't for real is she(he)? A mouth fool of slaver, foam, sour grapes and drool rendering its victim unable to "suffer the taste the truth". Wow!

H/She is clearly hatching the eggs of nationalism's delusion from the eagle of political dispair and laying her ideas in the nest of bitter mixed metaphors.... Or some s**t like that!
278

Edward,

12/03/2008 17:30:53
#317
You really are one dumb person!
You simply do not grasp the relaity of the LIT system, in that those who CANNOT AFFORD WONT PAY and those who CAN AFFORD WILL PAY, hope this is simple enough for you!
The £ 400 million which is set aside for counsil tax releif for those who cant afford will not actually be needed to be deployed for that function as under the new LIT, those on low income or pensions will not need to apply for benefit releif as they will not be paying in the first place..gedditt!
So the £ 400 million which belongs to Scotland anyway can be routed directly to the Scottish Government for the Scottish Government to use as for what ever purpose
Now just in case you didnt understand, if you are on low income or pension and dont currently pay tax, then you will not be paying any council tax and so dont need to apply for benifit. If you are a tax payer, tghen you will be paying 3p in the pound council tax
Some tax payers will be slightly better off, those at the bottom end to middle, and those who pay on higher salaries will be paying more, all based on income
279

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/03/2008 17:34:25
#328 Miss H please - the only way the Scottish Government can achieve either thing is to write a blank cheque to HMRC. They are obliged under the Scotland Act to reimburse any costs incurred.

If the argument against local rates is cost, then it applies just as well to LIT in general. Or perhaps they want to cover HMRC's cost with some of the CT benefit money, the way they are making the rest of it add up?

Honestly, it's a bit of a joke this, isn't it? Tax breaks for the rich from benefit money, tax cuts funded by magic, fiscal accountability removed from councils, a policy which simply doesn't add up being dressed up with a tax cut and sold as a rebate against the cost of living.

It's well seen the SNP haven't got much experience of government. If only we had a functioning opposition in this country to tackle them on this.
280

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 12/03/2008 17:34:36
It's such a crazy idea that they have a Local Income Tax in: Denmark, Sweden, Canada, Finland, Germany, Spain, Switzerland, Italy, Norway, USA, Austria, Belgium, Portugal and so on.

All these countries now have black holes, are in crisis and are only just trying to wave their sporrans at London, apparently.
281

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/03/2008 17:35:10
331. good to see you type with that hand as well.
282

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/03/2008 17:36:37
334. Very good point Alex. No doubt these countries you list found the system so complex and impossible that it doesn't work quite efficiently in them? We are faced with the typical Unionist cannae do, we are all doomed, go ahead positive attitude here I am afraid.
283

Edward,

12/03/2008 17:38:56
#327 Duncan in Edinburgh
Of course those on big salary incomeds are going to pay morfe, but then again if your on a big salary, an additioanl 3p in the pound will not make that much of a difference. Remembering of course those on big salaries invariably have big property paying sizable counsil rates. Where as the pesioner who has been their house for 20 or 30 odd years and doesn want to move, doent get a big salary or big increases or bonuses, but has to pay an every spiralling council rates. So Duncan what do you tell this pensioner? Tough we want to keep the council rates as they are? or do you do the right thing and have council tax based on ability to pay?
284

Edward,

12/03/2008 17:43:56
#333 Duncan in Edinburgh
Why on earth would the Scottish Government write HM R&C
a blank cheque???
First of all HM R&C services are already paid for by Scotland as part of its extra ordinary expenses that it pays to the UK Teasury (don tell me you you didnt know this)Secondly HM R&C already have the meachanism in place to collect Council tax, it litteraly is a metter of telling them to do it!
285

Stephen fae Scotland,

Folsom 12/03/2008 17:45:21
Don't the eejits get it yet - its a kilt tax - there is NOTHING LOCAL ABOUT IT!

Every earner in Scotland is suffering an income tax hike - that's all. Example: - There will be no variation for a home business in Banffshire with an income of 20,000 from an Edinburgh city dweller also on 20,000.

But in Edinburgh there are more police, more roads going to the local hospitals, more social workers, more rubbish collections, more building control officers, more street lights, more water services, etc. etc. etc. i.e. MORE SERVICES.... AND a huge festival!

The same tax on both those incomes - regardless of services - is ANYTHING BUT FAIR!

BOOT OOT THE GNATS (I thought I'd just say that again in case no one heard me the first time....!)
286

Miss H,

12/03/2008 17:47:42
333 Don't be daft Duncan. You are arguing that sticking an extra 3p on income tax for everyone who pays income tax in Scotland is the equivalent of having 32 different levels of additional income tax levied according to where people live which may not be the same place at they work. It's not the equivalent.
287

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/03/2008 17:49:26
341. And yet strangely income tax in Drumchapel and Kensington is the same...... No unionist has yet complained about this? Do you object to that?
288

Miss H,

12/03/2008 17:49:44
341 Stephen what do you want - an international festival for Fraserbugh?
289

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/03/2008 17:51:21
342. Miss H, indeed. The argument that 32 council taxes, with 32 collection agencies, levying a tax across 200 levels, is more complex than Scottish PAYE codes holds no water (Unlike Stephen FAe Scotland's head)

290

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/03/2008 17:52:02
344. Can we have the Chelsea Flower show in Cumnock please?
291

Stephen fae Scotland,

Folsom 12/03/2008 17:58:41
ok then - ye of barrage of insults - it is a local income tax - your silvery tongues and compelling arguments have quite won me over.

Of course its a local income tax. Scotland is merely a locality withing the UK - is that what you mean? Or is there no meaning to your mean - you are just mean!

OOT wi the GNATS an'their vile buzzzing...
292

Stephen fae Scotland,

Folsom 12/03/2008 18:03:39
#334 Miss H - no I don't want another taxpayer jamboree, be it an international festival in Fraserburgh or a worlds fair in Tain... my point is that there is nothing local about this tax - and as such it does not reflect the realities of different levels of local needs and service provision. Its Not a local income tax.

Its just a kilt tax hike that pill fiscally bomb Scotlanbd back to the pre-Union halcion days of Nationalist lore..
293

mesmiths,

fife 12/03/2008 18:05:08
#185 FAIR? How about the pure simplicity of being taxed according to how much you earn? Is that fair enough and simple enough for you?
A POP AT LABOUR? I can't really see how anyone could possibly do anything but attack labour. They go on and on about social justice, yet baulk at actual action for fear of upsetting their new pals. Then they try to sabotage a government intending to take such action. They even threaten to steal money from our country inorder to freighten us. They are a disgrace.
THE MEDIA? I'm sure you would be quick to point out any lack of balance were we in a situation where all the newspapers were vitriolic in their support of independence and the snp. And if there were no tv stations from England.
294

Miss H,

12/03/2008 18:28:23
348 For reasons already explained it is not possible for the Scottish Parliament to introduce a variable local income tax. Westminster would not allow that. If you think that Westminster should not have that power I agree but at present they do and until we are independent that's the way it is.

So the choice here and now is continue with council tax or move to the system the SNP is proposing.
295

Alan B,

12/03/2008 18:30:21
#281 Duncan "If the block grant was based on tax receipts generated in Scotland, it would be utterly unfair, because it would be far too low. That is why Barnet exists."

That is utter rubbish. Barnett was brought in the late 70s. In the yrs following the introduction of the Barnett formula despite scotland massively subsidised england because of oil revenues, despite having severe economic problems of its own.

At the end of the 90s an snp question to the tory treasure admitted that scotland had subsidised the rest of the uk to the tune of £27billion over the period of just over a decade. Similar to england giving away £270billion to a country 10x the size like say the US.

Barnett was brought in as by the labour government of the time to try to stop Scotland walking away with the oil revenues. It was about giving scotland a larger public spending per head said to be because of higher level of public need in scotland, but taking far more in return. It was a case of the poorer subsidising the richer.

The suppression of the Mcrone report among other information that has become available shows how desperate the labour government was to stop scotland walking away with it oil revenues. Saying one thing in public and while knowing that it was a pack of lies. Their own report showed the severe problems england would find itself in while scotland would surprising rich.

So do not try to make up some story that barnett was brought into being for scotland sake. We know that is a pack of lies now.


As for "If the block grant was based on tax receipts generated in Scotland" that is rubbish aswell. We might be too dependent on oil prices - a valid argument. But if u forget the labour party lies and actually include oil revenues in scottish figure our deficit is not outline with that of the uk as a whole. I remember the uk newsnight report before the election. The reporter from england was sent up to question Salmond and gave false figures and was sent away emba
296

Alan B,

12/03/2008 18:30:44
...
As for "If the block grant was based on tax receipts generated in Scotland" that is rubbish aswell. We might be too dependent on oil prices - a valid argument. But if u forget the labour party lies and actually include oil revenues in scottish figure our deficit is not outline with that of the uk as a whole. I remember the uk newsnight report before the election. The reporter from england was sent up to question Salmond and gave false figures and was sent away embarrassed when she found out the figures did not include oil revenues. By the end of the report the reporter obviously annoyed at being fed duff info, was making it clear that the projected uk governments projected figures showed that scotlands deficit was actually lower than the uks as a whole. As such the projected figure for the yr showed that scotland was going the be relatively subsidising the rest of the uk slightly.
297

Alan B,

12/03/2008 18:44:43
#333 Duncan "fiscal accountability removed from councils"
I agree that the LIT as proposed will remove the fiscal accountability from councils. However if labour think that is such a big deal why do they not allow this fiscal accountability to the much more imporant scottish parliament.

There is something daft about arguing for councils to be able set their own tax rates but not allowing the scottish parliament to do the same thing. While i would favour fiscal autonomy, fiscal federalism allowing scotland to raise the taxes thorugh the main levers of income tax, vat and corporation tax would be a start. More importantly it would be consistent with ur agrument about having fiscal accountability.
298

Alan B,

12/03/2008 18:51:01
AM2
You claim unionists do not say scotland is too poor be independent just that u feel scotland is better served with the uk. An example of Duncan one of the more frequent posters:

"If the block grant was based on tax receipts generated in Scotland, it would be utterly unfair, because it would be far too low."
299

GM,

12/03/2008 19:17:22
I look forward to an independent scotland and for that, I always support the SNP...

but this,

its the 'workers poll tax' and will be the first nail into what has been a bright and sparkling SNP government.

BTW can someone explain how this article states it will cost HMRC £30m to collect the tax? All HMRC systems currently have built in the 3p supllement possible since devolution. So £30m for someone to press a button to activate it???
300

GM,

12/03/2008 19:22:43
cant go without adding that AM2's constant referral to Burt report is pretty strange. Particularly since he seems to be relyin gon passages from it as if it were some kin dof 'tax bible'.

For the benefit of those who dont know, Burt headed a review of local government taxation in Scotland and his report's main recommendation was ignored by the very party in power who commissioned the report.

So all in all, you can probably take the Burt report (as good as it was IMO) and bin it as an authoratitive guide to taxation - after all thats what the politicians did with it.
301

GM,

12/03/2008 19:27:24
Does everyone here realise that *all* taxes could be done away with by simply adding to the PAYE levvy?

Council tax was one small (actually tiny) proportion of the overall tax base and by doing away with it you do away with one facet of the 'broadness' of the overall taxation system in place. That is not good practice.
302

Linda,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 19:29:02
GM The average worker in Scotland earns just under £20,000 per annum.

Under Local Income Tax the average hard working couple (two earners) would pay £874 in Local Income Tax.
In Edinburgh the lowest council tax band is £779 and Band B £909. The vast majority of workers will be better off,
303

GM,

12/03/2008 20:00:16
@358

Its a strange argument you put that 'because the majority are better off' it must be a good tax?!?

Following that logic why dont we just tax all earnings above say £100,000 at 85%?

That way, we're all (most of us anyway) better off but the richest will pay for us all?

You dont get my point -
There are several economic ways to describe taxes as 'good' or 'bad'... but without a doubt, everyone (of all poltical and economic persuasion) agrees that the tax base should be spread across several sources... income, savings, business profits, inheritence, property, luxury goods etc etc etc

What the SNP propose is to take away one of the those bases (partially).

Just now, everyone pays council tax or a proportion thereof (no matter how small). Under LIT only workers like me and I assume you will pay *anything*. Are you happy as a worker to subsidise *completely* the 30% of glaswegians who cant be bothered getting out of bed for a job? Bearing in mind that these same 'great unwashed' actually *use* far more of the local resources than your average worker does?

Put nothing in, get more out. Nice if you can get it.

The council tax is undeniably flawed but its *nothing* that a revaluation and a simplification of the benefits system couldn't fix.
304

The Fly Fifer,

Fife 12/03/2008 20:01:13
358 thats fine but there will be a shorfall even with higher earners paying more.

The countries costs will still increase so where will the shortfall come from.

After all we still have to fund the margarine legged, junkies and their spawn while they drink and smoke away the day in front of their TVs or in the pub.

I say remove all personal taxes period!! and have a consumer tax ie 26% should do it. no more tax free homers, if you want something you pay the tax on it. if you want to save fine do so but the choice is yours.

the poor you ask?? well an offset could be given to them on a fixed anmount to cover basics
305

Richard,

12/03/2008 20:16:07

The Fly Fifer,
Fife

358 "thats fine but there will be a shorfall even with higher earners paying more.

The countries costs will still increase so where will the shortfall come from".

But wages increase on an anual basis so cover any shortfall indeed people will get richer through time?

As for a sales tax I'm with you on that one but I think we should look at that once Scotland is independent.
306

Nikostratos,

12/03/2008 20:41:54
SNP's mendacity in this matter.....Yeah typical of the snp there Mendacity..............whas mendacity mean ?
307

Conan the Librarian™,

12/03/2008 21:00:10
359
So the people who won't pay council tax, won't pay LIT.

And your point please?
308

Billy Boy,

Sherman Oaks 13/03/2008 03:48:16
Why does it have to be so complex? As if we didn't know! The fact is, the only fair sysem is a flat percentage tax. Everyone pays the same percentage REGARDLESS. No write offs, No deductions, No cheating! Just the implementation of such a system would save millions in Bureaucratic costs not to mention the increase in taxes paid by many who now avoid them.
309

HEN BROON 5,

13/03/2008 11:23:56
252 AM2,Glasgow,UK 12/03/2008 14:38:56
#241 Hen Broon

"Your tacitly homophobic comments aren't going over my head."


Wow what a shock, I had no idea, still whatever rocks your boat, I'm sure you will both be very happy. they do say that one in five men do these things. Turns my stomach but, fear no way, disgust, you bet.
310

KWC,

Edinburgh 15/03/2008 11:32:56
Some of you sad people shoudl write a book in your spare time.

It's obvious we are being sold a pup, and it's obvious who will end up paying for it. This is sad because Scotland truly has an opportunity to reform tax here to make the place much more attractive than our near neighbours -- particularly for big businesses.

Just as our dear Darling has demonstrated his one-dimensional thinking (more tax to pay for ineptness), so the SNP are in danger of being similar.

Now shut up -- some of you need to get out more, especially company directors who could be working harder for the economy.

 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
  

 
 


Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.