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Holyrood vetoes SNP referendum bid

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Published Date: 05 March 2009
MSPs today voted by 72 to 47, with one abstention, to call on the Scottish Government to abandon plans for a Referendum Bill on independence.
The amendment was added to a Labour motion noting "broken" SNP election promises, which was passed in a 72 to 47 vote with one abstention.

MSPs then voted by 62 to 16, with 41 abstentions, to back a response by the Local Government and Communities Committee on the proposed national planning framework.

The motion was amended by Labour calls to include a high-speed rail link in a list of planning priorities.

MSPs voted 64 to 14, with 42 abstentions, in favour of Tory calls to remove references to technology in the framework.

They voted 65 to 54, with one abstention, to note that the framework does not support construction of new nuclear power stations in Scotland.
MSPs unanimously backed a legislative consent motion on the UK Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Bill.

The full article contains 164 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Forward Ho,

Renfrewshire 05/03/2009 17:33:33
Hurrah!

And let that be an end to this separatist nonsense once and for all.
2

Colin Wilson,

05/03/2009 17:51:23
This evening BBC Scotland's "Newsdrive" reported this story in terms of the SNP's plan to "stage" (sic) a referendum.

The use of that particular word with its insinuation of fakery, instead of e.g. "conduct" or "hold" a referendum, is clear political bias on BBC Scotland's part.
3

fiferjohn,

05/03/2009 18:00:51
i see labour has disposed of the paperwork for the glenrothes by election .it was stored in black bags and thrown out as rubbish.
and nothing is being done.
labour must be taking lessons from mugabee
4

Pavla,

Irvine 05/03/2009 18:05:11
Maybe this will give some of my nationalist comrades a wake up call.From the outset I never believed the parliament as it operates now could move us forward and was very cleverly devised as a trojan horse to stifle genuine democracy.We decided to boycott the constitutional convention but now are surprised the same unionist controlled body won't debate independence.Even in a referendum campaign we will have the power of the London and Scottish based media peddling the no vote position.Sometimes to the unionists credit they have drawn us into the spiders web as even now their 5th. columnists in local government and other agencies are cleverly blaming the SNP for their own years of mismanagement.The withdrawal of sheltered housing wardens and well above inflation rent rises in Ayrshire are put squarely at the door of John Swinney.Sometimes I don't understand the unionist posters I read regularly, surely you must have some respect for the parliament you helped create but as an example the day every other government either central or devolved was debating the imminent invasion of Iraq we were deep in debate over the fouling of the pavements by dogs.The referendum debate within the Paliament by 129 msps won't bring independence nearer only when we can mobilise the energy levels of the 60s and 70s and the outrage of the Thatcher years can we convince our fellow citizens of every persuasion that independence can improve our nation.
5

,

05/03/2009 18:06:40
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6

Desmo,

Lumphinnans 05/03/2009 18:08:45
Caught some of the debate on the radio today.
If Johann Lamont still wants to deny a "visceral hatred of the SNP", she may wish to rethink her presentation and delivery.
Sneering bitterness that women usually reserve for paedophiles or rapists doesn`t enhance the debate,or her contribution to it.
As for what she was saying,well,like the Lib-dems,all I heard was condescending,patronising sophistry,not real "grown up"politics as advocated by a significant other yesterday
7

Marga,

Edinburgh 05/03/2009 18:20:05
Glenrothers election papers - link to the BBC story:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7926635.stm

Stored in black binbags in the basement ...
8

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 05/03/2009 18:24:32
Unfortunately without a majority in Holyrood delivering any challenging and invigorating new ideas and policies will always be very difficult.
9

Churchill W.,

05/03/2009 18:25:19
Salmond has been defeated, the will of the Scottish people has been heard by way of our delegated representatives.
Why is that undemocratic in the view of SNP supporters, do they suppose they have more right to have their way than the majority?

Watch Salmond devise a way that he can slink back to Westminster, he has done it before when it suited him.
Democracy rules at Holyrood!
10

zeitgeist,

05/03/2009 18:28:27
This move by the unionist politicians, to deny the people of Scotland their democratic right, will condemn the people of Scotland to suffer the full ravages of Brown's coming depression. At least in Scotland we have an alternative to the neo-liberal policies being peddaled by the Nulabour/tory/libdem parties. When nulabour are kicked out at the next GE and we get the bullingdon boy in no 10, we can look forward to huge cuts in the Scottish 'grant' on top of the depression. Is this what Scots want? The unionists who sit in our parliament have clearly no interest in the people of Scotland. A parcel of rogues indeed!
11

,

05/03/2009 18:29:51
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12

Boswall,

05/03/2009 18:32:56
Question to the anti-democratic nationalists:

Why would pro-union parties - parties that placed preserving the union in their election manifestos, allow a minority government the change to hold a referrendum on the union?

The SNP might be totally incapable of enacting it's manifesto pledges - as has been seen once again today, but Nats - try not to drag down the rest of the political spectrum to your level.
13

Boswall,

05/03/2009 18:35:55
There's no doubt that this is a good day for Scotland and it's population - the raving nats have once again been pegged back.

Certainly this is how most Scots will see it - well except for the few who've been posting their bile above....
14

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 05/03/2009 18:36:59
Re #16 : "the will of the Scottish people has been heard..."

The will of the people has not been expressed, so how can it have been heard?

15

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 05/03/2009 18:38:27
1 backward ho

Hurrah!

And let that be an end to this separatist nonsense once and for all.
.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.


Haw pal.... this is jist the start....
16

,

05/03/2009 18:38:46
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17

Churchill W.,

05/03/2009 18:40:00
Labour lies # 21

It wasn't just Labour voted it down. The SNP does not represent the majority in Scotland, today's votes have shown you that.
Get used to democracy you SNP drones, we know you don't like democracy, but, the majority are not going to tolerate your fascist aspirations.
18

Boswall,

05/03/2009 18:41:10
#22

Because it was in the pro-union parties manifestos not to have a referendum. It would have been a betreyal of every election vote they got had they performed a u-turn, and they certainbly aren't going to do that just to make life easier for the inept SNP and that mood faced fool of a first minister.
19

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 05/03/2009 18:44:30
Re Boswall #26 : so every unionist party's manifesto said specifically that they would vote against having a referendum. Is that it?
20

Stan Butler,

05/03/2009 18:45:31

Looks like there's going to be another bout of comfort eating for Fat N'Eck Salmond.

How fat can he get before he explodes?

21

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 05/03/2009 18:47:16
--------R.I.P--------
DEMOCRACY IN SCOTLAND
---- MARCH 5 2009----


-----Sadly missed----
22

,

05/03/2009 18:47:58
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23

Scott_B,

05/03/2009 18:48:56
>> It wasn't just Labour voted it down. The SNP does not represent the majority in Scotland, today's votes have shown you that. Get used to democracy you SNP drones, we know you don't like democracy, but, the majority are not going to tolerate your fascist aspirations. <<

Today's votes have not shown that - today's votes have denied the opportunity for that to be tested.

If independence is clearly not the majority view, the other parties could allow a democratic vote to take place (i.e. a real democratic vote, the voice of the people), and the referendum would, presumably, clearly demonstrate that there is insufficient support for independence.

It's clear the other parties have no such confidence, and do not want to put the matter to a vote, or to allow the people to have their voice heard.

It's funny - the Irish people are asked again and again to vote on the EU treaty, because they MUST, and have not yet, give the answer that is wanted. In Scotland we will not be asked, because the answer which could well be given is not the one which is wanted. And we call it democracy.
24

,

05/03/2009 18:49:23
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25

gee whizz,

SNP Democracy !!!!!! 05/03/2009 18:50:09
Scum and vermin eh ? This is how some of our Nationalist friends in this blog describe their fellow Scots. Come the next election this will not be forgotten by those who defend democracy. IF the Scots vote enough SNP MSP's to parliament and IF parliament delivers a referendum and IF the Scottish people vote for independence then so be it.

However, the Nats do not have enough MSP's and as such are unable to deliver their referendum !! This is the current democratic will of the Scottish people. You may not like it but that is how it works. In the meantime do not refer to your fellow countrymen as scum and vermin. It is pathetic and that attitude won't be forgotten come the next election to Holyrood.

You want independence but you seem to hate your fellow Scots who happen to disagree with you. This is one of the main reasons why the Nats have never carried the majority vote of the Scottish people.
26

Boswall,

05/03/2009 18:50:59
#27

They're pro-union parties, that's was in their manifestos so yes that means KB-ing a referrendum (and whatever other stupid ideas the SNP have) - if you're pledging to defend something it would be rather stupid to then allow a vote on it.
27

Soosider,

Glasgow 05/03/2009 18:52:35
What an extraordinary not to say bizzarre thing for the opposition to do. They criticise the government for not doing enough on a range of things, but use up almost a full day of parliamentary time to raise a motion critical to ministers. They do not take the chance to discuss things of importance to Scotland about jobs, the economy, health or a huge range of things. They raise a motion amended by the Lib Dems to vote against a Bill that has not even been tabled by the government.
Is all they have to do with there time? Creating some obscure political move to try to stop a bill that is not due to be tabled untill later in the year? The question has to be WHY.
They will undoubtadly get some short term headlines from a friendly and accomadating media, but the real questions will surface over the next few days. They seem to have some idea that opposition is about opposing everything and contributing nothing.
28

The Master,

05/03/2009 18:53:07
The mainstream parties have moved adeptly to deny the Nats' crackpot separation agenda the oxygen of publicity.

It's a bit like dealing with the BNP really: don't give their outlandish ideas the publicity they so crave for them.
29

Stan Butler,

05/03/2009 18:53:32

Now that it is clear that the SNP's plan to hold a referendum is doomed will they persist in wasting Holyrood's time and taxpayers' money in pursuing the plan?

30

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

05/03/2009 18:53:47
Good news indeed: the very last circumstances in which I want to see an independent Scotland is when the Nationalist Socialists are in charge.
31

Tris,

05/03/2009 18:54:59

I can't help but think that denying people the right to vote in a referendum, which Labour are doing both in Scotland and in the UK, is rather a stupid thing to do. It means that they turn the General Election into a vote on these things for some people.

Last year, when the figures being quoted from polls suggested that the SNP would lose, Wendy was "bringing it on" for all she was worth (OK that turned out to be not much), and Tavish didn't see why it would be right to deny Scots the right to vote on their future.

Now that the polling shows a far closer thing, and an ever growing likelihood that the SNP would win, both parties seem to be running scared of the Scottish people's opinion.

Rather like Labour is on the Lisbon Treaty. They know they will not just lose, but lose humiliatingly if that is put to the British people, so they don't do it. DESPITE HAVING PROMISED IT IN THEIR ELECTION MANIFESTO (please note Labour supporters). So a U turn from Gordon the world saver on that, and U turn from Elmer Fudd on the Independence referendum.

Good to know you can trust these people to keep their word when they aren't filling in their expenses forms.
32

Boswall,

05/03/2009 18:55:22
#32

Not me - but I'm sure you can spot a good fib when you see one:

http://www.snp.org/node/13534

That's the SNP manifesto from 2007 - it's full of the bullsh1t they haven't delivered, that their unquestioning zealots just lap up.

33

Brian Hill,

05/03/2009 18:57:41
Wow, how powerful the unionists are....they have managed to OUTNUMBER the SNP. Not defeat the arguments for a Referendum, just OUTNUMBER.

But these BULLYING tactics will come at a price, the much LARGER electorate who have the power of life and death over political parties never mind political careers will have their say.

They will warm up in the European Elections in exactly 3 months time and by the time the General Election comes exactly a year after that (or even before)they will be in slaughter mode.

But frankly by the time the Bill is introduced to Holyrood in early 2010 the unionists will be falling over themselves to show how Scottish the are (not).

So enjoy for today, for tomorrow you suffer.
34

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 05/03/2009 18:59:43
Re Boswall (#34) : "They're pro-union parties, that's was in their manifestos so yes that means KB-ing a referrendum "

So it didn't say that specifically.

"if you're pledging to defend something it would be rather stupid to then allow a vote on it."

Only when you believe you would lose.
35

TheUnionisBritish,

05/03/2009 19:00:02
I fear there has been a tactical mistake made today and it will rebound on those who think they have won. Sadly a rather empty victory today.
36

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/03/2009 19:11:36
Another interesting precedent being set.

This was an amendment to a Labour motion on broken election promises. Half way through a term in minority office.

Ah yes. Best case scenario would be another 4 years of Labour in minority office?

Can't see it happening. Reckon the SNP will get back in again with a bigger minority majority.

Hope some aspiring film maker is writing the screenplay as it unfolds. History in the making here.
37

Churchill W.,

05/03/2009 19:21:40
Hen Mc Stoorie # 29

If the opposition at Holyrood had voted against the wishes of the Scottish majority, would that have been democracy in action?
Those who voted against the SNP today know that there will be elections in 2011, why should they be worried? The SNP has another two years to screw Scotland further into the ground, that will not be forgotten. Rope and time comes to mind... It will be SNP supporters that hang Salmond...
38

New Town's newest fan,

05/03/2009 19:22:56
How arrogant of Ms Sturgeon to bang-on about the denial of democracy on this issue. She, herself, is part of the same democratically-elected Parliament. Just because things didn't go the way the SNP wanted, she has no right to start claiming everybody in Scotland has been duped. If the track-record of the SNP's manifesto pledges are to be taken into account, can we ever take them seriously? Another example of their ineptitude.
39

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 05/03/2009 19:23:39
The heading "Holyrood vetoes SNP referendum bid" is bizzare.

The word "veto" (I forbid) portrays a finality in the matter.

An amendment "to call on the Scottish Government to abandon plans for a Referendum Bill on independence" was made to a motion, which was passed.

Neither the amendment, nor the motion can prevent the introduction of a referendum bill therefore this nonsense about a veto is just claptrap.

The continual reversal of the labour party's position on referenda has been well documented recently, therefore this can change at any second.

Remember Wendy Alexander and Ian Gray on "Newsnight" last year stating that they wanted a referendum.

Indeed Gordon Brown was FOR a referendum on 6 May 2008 (according to Wendy Alexander, Brown told her) and the following day Brown changed his mind.

The gang of self-seeking sycophants that call themselves, the labour party, will do anything to keep their snouts in the trough for as long as possible and if that means reversing todays motions to buy a little more time they will do so.
40

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 05/03/2009 19:26:59
The heading "Holyrood vetoes SNP referendum bid" is typical sensationalist tripe that is prevalent in this type of journalism (I use the term "journalism" very, very loosely in this case).

The word "veto" (I forbid) portrays a finality in the matter.

An amendment "to call on the Scottish Government to abandon plans for a Referendum Bill on independence" was made to a motion, which was passed.

Neither the amendment, nor the motion can prevent the introduction of a referendum bill therefore this nonsense about a veto is just claptrap.

The continual reversal of the labour party's position on referenda has been well documented recently, therefore this can change at any second.

Remember Wendy Alexander and Ian Gray on "Newsnight" last year stating that they wanted a referendum.

Indeed Gordon Brown was FOR a referendum on 6 May 2008 (according to Wendy Alexander, Brown told her) and the following day Brown changed his mind.

The gang of self-seeking sycophants that call themselves, the labour party, will do anything to keep their snouts in the trough for as long as possible and if that means reversing todays motions to buy a little more time they will do so.
41

Churchill W.,

05/03/2009 19:30:39
Canes Pugnaces # 48

Salmond is inept. The SNP is inept, it is as clear as the belly on the fat leader. The independence referendum, promised by Salmond, was always going to be a non-starter. Anybody that believed otherwise is gullible. Anyone that proposed and promised what they could not deliver is a liar. End of...
42

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/03/2009 19:33:37
I should point out that I said Ah yes in 44.

Not Oh Yas.

Amazing how yon nodding dog @ 45 thought I was calling it and repeated the opposite of what I was saying.
43

New Town's newest fan,

05/03/2009 19:34:24
48. I didn't mention my political affiliation. Mair arrogance!
44

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/03/2009 19:40:45
Now that some people think the coup de grace has been served on the SNP, might I ask them for their suggestions on the ideal make up of the next Scottish government after the election in 2011?
45

arc of insolvency,

05/03/2009 19:41:06
It's about time this self fulfilling independence referendum was scrapped when are the non SNP votes going to count?

I find the SNP ridicoulous at the best of times, but to question democracy here is lunancy. It's about time we questioned the continual faailing of this joke party.
46

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/03/2009 19:43:24
56, arc arc the dogs do bark. Any answer to 55?
47

arc of insolvency,

05/03/2009 19:44:04
New Town's newest fan - if you even questions these SNP plonkers they just abuse you as a troll and a traitor - they really are that small minded(it's bizarre)!
48

Churchill W.,

05/03/2009 19:44:14
Jock Tamson # 51

Your comments are sacrosanct are they? You are as arrogant as your failed leader, Salmond.
Salmond, Scotland's Mussolini and half as competent. At least Mussolini had the trains running on time in Italy, Salmond can't even get his tram set working.

Labour lies # 52

Salmond said that he wouldn't accept the SNP leadership. Another Salmond lie then?
49

Tris,

05/03/2009 19:45:39

A lot of the posters here seem to have no idea of what a referendum is.

What the unionist parties have said is

WE WILL NOT PERMIT THE SCOTTISH PEOPLE A CHANCE TO CHOOSE WHETHER THE SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT SHOULD PETITION THE UK GOVERNMENT FOR INDEPENDENCE.

Perhaps they all know so much better than we do what is good for us. After all they are all stunning intellects. Second only to...

.......well something or other.

I'm inclined to think they are scared that, if they lose, the elevation to the aristocracy that they were expecting will go west.

Imagine, Lord Gray of Fudd, The Earl of Shetland, and best of all.... Baroness Curren of Glasgow East (not)??????
50

Churchill W.,

05/03/2009 19:46:11
Jock Tamson # 55

"suggestions on the ideal make up of the next Scottish government after the election in 2011?"

Democratic parties will be in abundance, therefore, the SNP will not be represented.


51

arc of insolvency,

05/03/2009 19:47:30
Unlike you Mr Tamson I'll let the democratic vote decide that - maybe you could form your own freedom fighters group and force you will on everyone. I'm sure some SNP supporters on her would probably join!! I can just imagine Salmond riding a horse into battle - poor horse with that beach whale on him! Good night.
52

arc of insolvency,

05/03/2009 19:49:20
No tris it was just that twice as many people voted in 2007 to not bother with your self indulgent nonsense.

53

Churchill W.,

05/03/2009 19:49:31
Tris # 60

What the SNP have said is:
"To hell with the will of the Scottish majority, we will drag Scotland to independence at the expense of democracy where it suits our party needs."
54

New Town's newest fan,

05/03/2009 19:52:20
58 - Thanks Bud, I call it tunnel vision! It's about time some people questioned the validity of Parliament/politicians policy regardless of who they vote for.
55

Churchill W.,

05/03/2009 19:57:06
If Salmond had support for independence he would call his people onto the street now. Who knows, he might even bring down the UK Government. But, he either lacks confidence, or, support, which is it?
56

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/03/2009 19:59:25
Aye, twa yappy dugs caught out.

That's you, Oh Yas and arc, arc.

All mooth and no substance - why will you not answer the question @ 55? It is a reasonable question.

Have you no answer? Do you just spout on here with no other rhyme nor reason other than to show your total ignorance?
57

john z,

edinburgh 05/03/2009 20:04:55
Why is Scotland not allowed to have a referendum on independence?? Other countries are allowed them.

I think a referendum will help end all the uncertainty either one way or the other, but for some reason, Labour and the Tories don't want Scots to have their say.

I'm not sure I understand why Labour are against it, as Ian Gray and Labour were very much in favour of a referendum just last year.

I didn't realise the lib dems were so against democracy until tonight.

This is a democracy we live in isn't it????? So why can't we Scots have our say on this issue???
58

Churchill W.,

05/03/2009 20:08:24
Jock Tamson # 67

"All mooth and no substance"
Perfect description of; Alec Salmond.

For the answer to your question, I refer you to my post @ 61.
You are the one who is ignorant. Do you not know what a democratic NO, is? If you do not now, Salmond does!
Let Salmond educate you.
59

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/03/2009 20:11:19
69, Oh Yas. You call that an answer? Direct question, direct answer.

Anything else is bluster.

Do you always set yourself such a low standard and fail to meet it?
60

Salthorse,

Amused 05/03/2009 20:11:56
My Parliament today was disrespected as was democracy, decency and a man's right to determine his own future. I sit here in disgust at a bunch of men and women, some educated and some with less than 2 O'Grades to rub together who have denied their people the opportunity to decide their own future. They squander time that has been bestowed upon them to make laws and work towards a better future for Scotland. If they cannot carry out this simple task that the electorate expect of them, then it should be removed from them.

I have a flame that burns in my heart for a happier, healthier, cultured and prosperous Scotland, clearly these individuals and those of a certain Ilk wish to deny that for their country. Clearly they are not cognisant of the truth and wish to deny the facts at any cost using propaganda, thinking it's their right to control my country, anymore of this kind of behaviour will radicalise certain people and disappointment will become frustration, then anger, then rage until the man and woman in the street are heard, I've seen it, it's not bonnie but the time will soon be upon us to make a choice.

I expect serious civil unrest.

Scotland decides what Scotland wants.
61

Bejjy,

05/03/2009 20:12:27
The Scottish electorate have triumphed, democracy is alive and well in Scotland.
62

DaveK,

05/03/2009 20:13:02
The majority of people of Scotland voted for parties who are against independence in principal - for the duration of this parliament. Stop banging on about it being anti democratic. The Unionists need not gloat, they did what they said they would, and the nats need to stop beating their chests, what did they expect? To claim it is undemocratic is more an emotional outpouring than a true reflection of what has taken place by duly elected representatives in parliament.
63

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 05/03/2009 20:13:04
What the Liebor trolls on here dont seem to get is the vote today was along party lines.
Every member who voted today esp tavish scott,did so because HE didnt want a referendum, thats not to say his PARTY FAITHFUL didnt want one. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought MSPs were representatives of their constituants, not for themselves.
64

Churchill W.,

05/03/2009 20:13:25
john z # 68

If Salmond would offer a multi option referendum then he might have a chance, but, his rabid supporters and party will never allow that.
65

Churchill W.,

05/03/2009 20:16:21
Jock Tamson # 71

Do you always set yourself such a low standard and fail to meet it?
Your question reads like Salmond's epitaph.
How very apposite!
66

European Scot,

05/03/2009 20:16:59
Having a referendum is asking all of the people of Scotland about the future of the Scottish Constitution, involving all Scots of voting age.
This not about what political party you favour, or what politician you favour, it is a direct question about the future of Scotland as a country, and as a Nation.
No individual, no single political Party, nor group of Parties, has the right to prevent the people of a country from deciding its future as a country.
This not a political vote, nor should previous results from what were purely political votes, be allowed to stand in the way of what is a constitutional vote.
A referendum is a vote in which all people, from different political persuasions, are given the right to chose the future of their country's constitution.
Woe betide anyone who stands in the way of that basic right.
67

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/03/2009 20:17:52
I shall repeat post 55 for all recent posters.

Now that some people think the coup de grace has been served on the SNP, might I ask them for their suggestions on the ideal make up of the next Scottish government after the election in 2011?

Wonder if I'll get an honest, intelligent reply?
68

Churchill W.,

05/03/2009 20:18:14
Jock Tamson # 71

"Do you always set yourself such a low standard and fail to meet it?"
Your question reads like Salmond's epitaph.
How very apposite!

I liked JTs point so much that I thought I would repeat it with the appropriate quotation marks.
69

Bejjy,

05/03/2009 20:19:27
#72 Salthorse

Get over yourself, the people of Scotland decided in 2007 and will have a chance to do so again in 2011. You obviously don't know the meaning of the word democracy.

Are you inciting civil unrest?, if so I think the editorial staff at the Scotsman should be informing the police so that an investigation be made with a view to you facing criminal charges.
70

Jock Tamson,

S 05/03/2009 20:20:56
So, Oh Yas @ 78, you are unable to answer the question.

Not got broadband in the kennel then? To get your answers told to you.
71

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 05/03/2009 20:22:15
72 Salthorse

Out of all the posts on here, I think you've summed up what a lot of people in Scotland are thinking right now.
72

Churchill W.,

05/03/2009 20:28:59
Salthorse # 72

It will not be long before people like you are threatening our democratically elected representatives, will it?
Just admit that you hate democracy.
73

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/03/2009 20:29:33
84 Hen and 72 Salthorse. Calm down. This vote is good. The opposition parties were given an option. Shoot themselves in the left foot or shoot themselves in the right foot.

They pulled the trigger. Make up your own minds which foot they got.
74

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 05/03/2009 20:29:39
82 budgie

I think you would be better starting your police investigation at the Lab/Lib/Tory party offices.....for crimes against the people of Scotland.....HAHAHAHAHAHA........TWEET TWEET....
75

Bejjy,

05/03/2009 20:35:44
#87

Typical of the brainless Nats on these forums, when they lose an arguement, which they most often do, they resort to abuse. God help an independent Scotland led by the SNP although I can't believe all their followers are as brain dead as the ones who present here.
76

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/03/2009 20:36:00
85 Oh Yas, still yapping.

No direct answers to direct questions - just yap, yap, yap, yap, yap.

No wonder you were placed in the back window of cars.
77

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 05/03/2009 20:36:15
86 Jock Tamson

They would probably miss.......
78

Churchill W.,

05/03/2009 20:36:17
Bejjy # 82

They are better ignored, they don't have the numbers to organise any kind of civil unrest and if they did they don't have the leadership, or, the bottle.

Think how much Salmond would have to give up to lead that useless rabble, Salmond knows where he is best off: Westminster.
79

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/03/2009 20:37:40
Bejjy, various. Do you have an answer to 55?
80

Geoff Clee,

Hampshire 05/03/2009 20:39:54
Why not a similar referendum in England? We would not dream of voting to keep you against your will but we would love the opportunity to get rid of you in accordance with our will. The last opinion poll recorded nearly 70% of English people in favour of your independence
Geoff Clee
81

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/03/2009 20:40:17
90 Hen. Naw. They got one of their feet today. But they are quadrupeds so there are still a couple to go.
82

Bejjy,

05/03/2009 20:42:53
#92

I think that the SNP will lose seats in the 2011 election given that they haven't delivered anything of any significance other than hot air since they formed a minority government in 2007.
83

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/03/2009 20:43:48
Well said, Geoff@93. Go on yersels. Meet you for a pint in Newcastle after independence.
84

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/03/2009 20:45:02
95 Bejjy. You have not answered the question.
85

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 05/03/2009 20:46:33
95

Wishful thinkin budgie...your on your way to oblivion.
86

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05/03/2009 20:47:16
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87

Churchill W.,

05/03/2009 20:47:26
Geoff Clee # 93

You organise that Geoff. I suggest that you do not join the SNP though, they will be no help to you, they cannot organise their own referendum even when the Government is down.
Jock Tamson here thinks he is a player, a big gun, a .44 Magnum, when everyone knows he is just a smallbore.
Soft chocolate ice cream rather than hi-velocity hitter.
88

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 05/03/2009 20:49:42
95

Along with at least 25% tory and 50% libs...

Awipe out of greens.

We might even see a couple of socialists getting in.
89

Bejjy,

05/03/2009 20:49:59
#97

A hung parliament to allow for the opinions of all of the Scottish electorate to be considered.
90

Churchill W.,

05/03/2009 20:51:55
Bejjy # 104

Two things that will be hanging after that election: Salmond's jaws and Salmond's bellies.
91

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/03/2009 20:52:51
Yap, yap, yap, yap, yap.

Cannot answer questions.

Yap, yap, yap. yap, yap.

Cannot answer questions.

Yap, yap, yap, yap, yap.

Guess who that is?
92

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 05/03/2009 20:57:27
98 RAB

Keep up son its labours turn today.
Yesterday it was the LiBS.
And "ra morra" shall be the turn of the Tory.

calm down dear its only a forum......
93

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05/03/2009 20:57:49
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Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/03/2009 20:58:28
104, Bejjy.

I was referring to the political make up of the next Government. Not the parliament. This was clearly stated in 55.

Next.....
95

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/03/2009 21:00:53
111 Traquir, I fear it has a lot to do with their lunar cycles. Bleeding obvious really.
96

Churchill W.,

05/03/2009 21:02:51
Rab The Ranter # 112

The SNP sold their souls to the Tories, how could anyone, who was there, ever forget that?
That should bar them for ever more. Scum the lot.
97

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/03/2009 21:03:59
109 Secret Mole. Do you have an answer to the question @55? Or do you post remarks with impugnity?
98

Bejjy,

05/03/2009 21:04:19
#113

Does it matter if its an hung parliament?, no one would have overall control. If pressed I would say that the Government (which again will possibly be a minority Government) will be formed by a Lib/Lab pact. What do you think as you are asking the question.
99

Geoff Clee,

Hampshire 05/03/2009 21:05:37
100: the slightly intemperate remark suggests a lack of confidence. You want independence to best the English but if we vote for it as well the effect is lost. I assure you we have the "guts", as you inelegantly put it. We lost interest in foreign possessions a long time ago.
You will leave with our good wishes. We hope you will do well if only for healthy trading relationships
Geoff Clee
100

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/03/2009 21:05:45
116, Still no answer, Oh Yas? How can anyone take you seriously?
101

Jock Tamson,

Still at the Pantheon 05/03/2009 21:09:23
118, Bejjy. Please re read the question. You are being asked for your preference. Not for your forecasting ability.
102

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/03/2009 21:10:51
121 Rab The Ranter. Would you care to answer the question @ 55?
103

Bejjy,

05/03/2009 21:10:56
#123

Lib/Lab minority Government; and you?
104

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 05/03/2009 21:11:25
118 budgie

Bed fellows yet again?

NAE CHANCE!!!

SNP will have a majority of 4 maybe 5.

105

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05/03/2009 21:12:00
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Bejjy,

05/03/2009 21:12:25
#124

Why are you so obsessed with people answering the question at #55; are you on a mission?
107

Bejjy,

05/03/2009 21:16:53
#126

At least budgies have some intelligence unlike bird brains such as yourself who are of limited intellect.
108

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05/03/2009 21:18:48
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Desmo,

Lumphinnans 05/03/2009 21:19:34
#115 Rab
I`m afraid I share much of the odium and distrust you have for politicians.
Wouldn`t it be better,though,if we,the Scots,could get rid of them as and when we,the Scots,choose?
This,for me,is the biggest single attraction of Independence.
We are supposed to live in a democracy.
Ours,though,is the only democratic country whose government is elected by voters in another country.
Englands numerical superiority dictates that this will forever be the case.
We,with Independence,can change this.
Without it we are doomed to repeats of the Thatcher years.
Remember them?
110

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/03/2009 21:21:51
Bejjy@125 and 128.

Thank you for an honest answer to an honest question. So far you are the only unionist poster to give an answer.

Back to the Future or Groundhog day?

Me? I want to see an SNP majority.

Back to the Future without Groundhog day.
111

tartan army 2222,

05/03/2009 21:23:56
#19 Boswall

*****
Why would pro-union parties - parties that placed preserving the union in their election manifestos, allow a minority government the change to hold a referrendum on the union?
*****

Tories - I would think less of them if they did vote for this. They are a pro-union, undemocratic party to the core so they're only doing what you would expect of them.

Labour - Again, they've been relatively consistent in standing against this (asides from the Wendy incident). However, they're supposed to be here to allow the will of the people to prevail over the will of the few. Well the people's will is for a referendum. Not all support independence, but they do support the people having their say on it.

Libs - their whole raison d'etre is to bring politics to the grass roots, allowing the people to have a greater say. It now seems that this is only the case when the leaders of this 'party' believe that their proposals will win out.

It's simple really. We're not asking for, or demanding independence now. We're asking that the people of Scotland, not politicians, decide the country's future. Why are the unionists so scared of the people having their say? I think we all know the answer.
112

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/03/2009 21:27:17
So there we have it. Out of all the anti nats, only 1 unionist poster can give an honest answer to an honest question.

They all come out with pens shooting bullets but do not have a clue what they are talking about.

Sad.

They call it democracy.
113

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05/03/2009 21:32:06
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05/03/2009 21:34:54
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05/03/2009 21:37:12
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Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/03/2009 21:37:42
Churchill W. The extra space is really between your ears .
117

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05/03/2009 21:39:45
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05/03/2009 21:41:59
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Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/03/2009 21:43:44
Tis the equivalent of teletubbies now.

Juvenile cyberdelinquent time.

Goodnight.
120

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05/03/2009 21:46:45
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05/03/2009 21:48:45
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05/03/2009 21:50:11
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05/03/2009 21:50:46
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05/03/2009 21:52:00
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05/03/2009 21:53:05
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Alba Abú,

05/03/2009 22:04:13
165 Why dont you close yours ,you obnoxious mis-fit.
Scotland's Shame!
128

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05/03/2009 22:08:34
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05/03/2009 22:11:30
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Alba Abú,

05/03/2009 22:15:14
#169 I have a feeling that the labour party would not want to associated with a w@nker like you. Idiotic basted!
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05/03/2009 22:16:46
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05/03/2009 22:17:25
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Observer,,

Glasgow 05/03/2009 23:17:13
Well a lot of posts eseem to have been deleted here did the fakirs go mad ?

Holyrood has NOT vetoed the referendum bill. The opposition have said that they don't support the legislative heart of the SNP Govt and........well that's all.

The referendum bill will, as far as I know, still be presented. So what is this all about ? A stated intention with no follow through. So big deal.
137

Soloman,

Stirling 05/03/2009 23:27:16
Roll on Scotlands Referendum!

The People will Speak.


Goodbye Broken Union Goodbye to the PAST,Goodbye NULABOUR.
138

The Voice of Reason !!,

Glasgow 05/03/2009 23:31:48
this whole situation is rather bizare!

the unionist parties claim to want to save the union yet the quickest way to break the union is to deny the people of scotland a say on their own destiny.

the three "unionist" parties are going to pay a serious price at the next election.

i am not sure in my own mind whether or not an independent scotland is a good thing or a bad thing but i know for sure that i want to hear the debate and make up my own mind and have a say in the ballot box !

i will not vote for any party that does not allow me that right !
139

Master of conspiracies,

05/03/2009 23:32:25
So there wasn't enough of a majority in Parliament to support the referendum and that's democracy in action? I agree. Now then, where was Zanu Labour's democracy when it came to electing a Prime Minister, deciding on whether there should be a runway over Heathrow - and a whole village being emptied from their homes or when it came to fighting the worthless wars, inspired by a redneck foreign president (who has no right to rule us), which have bankrupted the country and show no sign of ending. Oh that's right, there was no vote in Parliament. Labour = Hyporites to their self serving champagne socialist cores.
140

Observer,,

Glasgow 05/03/2009 23:35:28
''this whole situation is rather bizare!'' Err yes you can say that again Voice of Reason. Normally it is customary in a democracy to allow the Government (minority or otherwise) to put forward their legislative programme, debate it, and then vote. It is not customary to strangle the bill like a baby at birth on the basis that it might be Damien the unionist anti-christ baby (bill). Methinks I can small fear.
141

Brian Hill,

06/03/2009 00:02:28
For goodness sake let the unionists have their big day.

All they've achieved is headlines, they haven't blocked the Referendum Bill but my God will they pay heavily at the polls for even trying to deny the people of Scotland the right to determine their own future.



142

Alexander the Scot,

Michigan. U.S.A. 06/03/2009 00:13:23
Churchill W., 116
Good choice of name, "Churchill": did not the original W. Churchill say when he was told about the Anzacs being slaughtered trying to get ashore at the Dardanelles, "Keep sending them in, they are expendable". Congratulations, you live up to the name... As far as you are concerned, Scotland is expendable also. Just as the 51st Highland Division was expendable in 1940 when they were left behind around the areas of Blangy-sur-Bresle and St. Valery still fighting through June 8th while the more "worthy ones" had started being evacuated in April.
Ah yes, Scotland really does need more just like you.
Oh what a parcel of rogues in a Nation.
143

sjs,

Haddingotn 06/03/2009 00:18:17
How about a poll on the Scottish Parliament's website asking people if they want a referendum? This should be publicised in the national newspapers, on the television, and on the internet, and debated across the nation. Instead of silly finger pointing, let's have some real evidence of support FOR the referendum, then at least the choice can be made once and for all. Non?
144

Stan Butler,

06/03/2009 00:30:09
#166 Alexander the Scot


All soldiers are regarded as expendable in war.

That's why so many get killed.

It wouldn't really be a war if no soldiers died, would it? More of a big tiff.
145

famous 15,

Edinburgh 06/03/2009 00:34:41
Voting against democracy! In a democracy? They will live to regret it. Independence is now inevitable.
146

famous 15,

Edinburgh 06/03/2009 00:37:22
BTW Was Brown an embarrassment in America? Made your skin crawl.
147

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 05/05/2009 04:25:05
Oh PLEASE LADIES AND GENTLEMEN....LET US GET ON WITH THE SCOTTISH REFERENDUM....................

 

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