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City's trams vision is on right track

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Published Date:
08 December 2006
THE Capital's trams vision today took a huge step forward as its backers unveiled a business plan which showed the scheme was viable and would deliver hundreds of millions of pounds worth of benefits.
The business plan revealed there is enough money in place to build the main Leith to Edinburgh Airport line, and there may be enough left over to complete a spur route to the Granton Waterfront development.

But more importantly the report presented by TIE - the company set up by the council to deliver the trams - also predicted the service will be in profit within two years of its 2010 start date.

The business case, compiled by leading transport consultants Steer, Davies and Gleave, has been presented to the city councillors and will soon be sent to Scottish ministers.

They are now expected to give the system the go-ahead, with building work starting in March.

Councillor Ricky Henderson, the city's transport leader, today welcomed the report as a major step forward for the Capital.

He said: "This brings the reality of trams on Edinburgh's streets one step closer. We remain committed to ensuring this happens and that as much of the network as is affordable is built as quickly as possible.

"As a prosperous city we're acutely aware that we must manage growth so that Edinburgh does not grind to a halt. With a fast, efficient and environmentally sound record, trams are vital in ensuring this happens and will build on the already great public transport service in place across the city.

"Doing nothing is not an option, we have to think to the future - not the here and now. Edinburgh needs a modern transport system and the integrated system of trams and buses that we are proposing will keep Edinburgh moving well into the future."

Today's report reveals the cost of the trams has risen by £33m to £592m. However, that new figure includes a 12 per cent contingency fund, which is designed to cover any further increases.

Should that fund not be needed, TIE will have enough money to build both the airport line and the Granton spur.

If costs do rise, TIE is still confident of raising the extra cash it would need for the Granton line - which could be up to another £47m - largely from developers.

Central to today's report is a "benefit-to-cost ratio", which analyses the value of spending £592m on trams in quantifiable benefits such as more jobs and faster journey times, as well as less obvious benefits such as helping the environment or making it easier for elderly people to get around the city.

The business case sets this ratio at £1.63 worth of benefits for every £1 spent - far above the Borders rail link at just over £1, although less than the Edinburgh Airport Rail Link at £2.16.

TIE's business case suggest more than 30,000 people a day will use the trams in their first year, rising to around three times that number within 20 years.

Almost one in five of those are expected to be people who do not currently use public transport.

Edinburgh's booming economy is one of the reasons cited for the need for the return of trams.

There will be nearly 35,000 more people working in the Capital by 2015, and 23,800 new homes will need to be built, mainly at Granton and Leith Docks.

Trams can carry 20,000 passengers an hour, far more than buses and some roads are expected to reach capacity for buses in as little as five years.

City leaders also believe trams will rejuvenate the city centre.

TIE's business case predicts the trams will create 930 permanent new jobs, as well as over 1000 jobs through the construction phases.

From its second year of operation, the project is expected to have an operating profit - rising to as much as £45m by 2031 - all of which will be ploughed back in to public transport, with the exception of a £2m-plus annual dividend for the council.

The business case also reveals concessions have been made to critics of the initial proposals.

The idea of axing all bus services along Leith Walk has been dropped. Instead, the company which will operate the trams and Lothian Buses - Transport Edinburgh Limited (TEL) - has agreed to run six buses every hour from Leith Walk to Princes Street.

THE move is designed to make life easier for elderly and disabled people who would otherwise face long walks between tram stops.

The business case has been presented to councillors this week. The full council is expected to give the project its final approval at a meeting on December 21. Scottish Ministers are then expected to back the scheme in February, allowing work to start in March.

Neil Renilson, chief executive of TEL and Lothian Buses, described the business case as "robust".

"It clearly demonstrates the impressive benefits and future revenues trams are expected to deliver to Edinburgh," he said.

"The document contains a comprehensive analysis of patronage, costs and revenue, which have been benchmarked against existing schemes in Dublin and Nottingham. We have prices for the utility diversions, legal costs, tram vehicle and maintenance costs which have been supported by a detailed exercise to determine the target cost for the build of the tram infrastructure.

"The business case clearly shows how the integration of tram with bus through timetabling, common ticketing and interchange points support TEL as a business showing a profitable business in the future."

The trams business case took more than three years to prepare, and involved extensive transport modelling and analysis.

Around £60m has so far been spent on the project, mainly on legal costs. The Scottish Executive has agreed to provide £500m for the entire scheme, with the council adding £45m of its own money.

TIE has already signed a £40m contract with Alfred McAlpine to move gas pipes and water mains along the route.

This has helped provide a more accurate final cost, and four bids have also been received to provide the vehicles - thought to be in the region of £50m.

The main contract - building the tram lines - has been put out to tender, so the final cost will not be known until July 2007.

The possible future phases of the tram network - from Leith to Granton and from the airport to Newbridge - which were shelved earlier this year, are not included in the business case.

TIE chairman Willie Gallagher said: "It is important to remind ourselves of why we are developing trams in the first place.

"Edinburgh is growing, both in terms of its economy and its population. Those living and working in the city have to be able to move around quickly and efficiently.

"Edinburgh needs a modern transport system and the integrated system of trams and buses that we are proposing will keep Edinburgh moving into the future.

"What we are doing now is putting in place the spine of the network. The Leith to airport route will alleviate many of the congestion scenarios we face with our growing population. We fully expect Edinburgh to follow the path of other cities where the network grows in size."

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 08 December 2006 2:29 PM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Edinburgh transport plans
 
1

bikerider1,

08/12/2006 12:37:59

i would describe this business plan more as hopeful rather than robust. it doesnt proove anything really, although im really happy about the jobs it will allegedly create, it will almost be as many as are lost from the businesses it puts out of business while its being built and with the congestion it creates. it will be interesting to see how it fits cars, buses and trams down constitution street.
it does nothing to serve the east or south of the city so it wont alleviate any traffic congestion from there. still wont serve the hospitals and generally speaking will only be of use to tourists coming from the airport in to town. but thats ok cause the present council are only interested in the tourist pound.
its interesting how they site dublin as an example. it was never in the same position as edinburgh except perhaps in head counts. it was so run down that anything would boost its trade and it wasnt funded by local government or councils it was funded by the eec. they dont have to pay all that back, where as we wil be paying this back through taxes and local rates for years to come yet

2

JG,

Fife 08/12/2006 12:39:29

So who is paying for this? Edinburgh City Council? Private Business? Or the Scottish Parliament?

If it is the parliament, how come they have enough money for that and not enough to replace the aging Forth Bridge?

3

Paul Voltaire,

www.paulvoltaire.spaces.live.com 08/12/2006 12:40:12

I don't see how it can be in profit within two years given the huge start up costs of around £500 million that have been quoted.

4

Ronnie L.,

08/12/2006 12:43:02

Considering trams are going to happen regardless of what is said on this website and regardless of next year's elections, I hope this report is right.

5

petrol head,

Edinburgh 08/12/2006 12:54:36

Trams won't work here. The roads are not wide enough in many parts of the city to have separation between normal road traffic and the tramway.

The result would be that the trams could easily be blocked by other traffic and would themselves block traffic when they stopped.

I know that trams work in other European cities in Germany, Belgium, Holland and Poland to name but a few, but their roads are many times wider, and almost dead flat. Also, in these cities, they never got rid of the trams and over the years the city developed around the fact that they were there. In Edinburgh, they got rid of the trams many, many years ago and ever since, the city has developed with them not being there. To think that this can be reversed in a matter of months and will work out OK is merely a pipe dream.

Imposing trams on Edinburgh would simply bring everything to a standstill---but hey! Based on the council's previous track record of managing roads and traffic, isn't that what they want?

Just vote them out before they have a chance to impose this madness on us.

6

Tomsk,

The Real World 08/12/2006 12:55:31

Unneeded
Unwanted
Unsustainable
Unsuitable
Unsupported
Untenable

What I think -- Unprintable

7

Cynical,

08/12/2006 12:56:11

ONE stop on Princes Street, two on Leith Walk...and they call it a service??
It is nothing more than a con to suage the egos of outgoing councillors and to stop them being sued for the promises they made to the developers of those totally inaccessible flats on the waterfront.

This is a con, a total waste of money and, to cap it all, the graffic model doesn't work. It is going to bring the city to a standstill.

8

Cynical,

08/12/2006 12:57:39

Oh yeah...let's not forget why they were ripped up before. Something about winters, ice and a city built on hills.....

9

edi,

08/12/2006 12:58:11

In reponse to point 1 Constitution street will become tram only in some places.

In repsonse to point 5 most bus services will be withdrawn from Leith Walk. This is the only way the business case stacks up

10

Liz,

08/12/2006 12:58:25

# 4

I too hope this report is correct but fear that this is a stupid sceme that is going to cost a fortune and provide minimal benefits.

#5

That is one of my main reservations about the project - I fail to see what benefit this scheme will provide to the majority of Edinburgh residents - presumably every bus on Leith Walk is either going to be stopped or severly disadvantaged by this tram - this is fine for the few who want to go from Ocean terminal to the Airport but what about everyone else! It will do little to stop much of the City's congestion and can only have a negative effect on the rest of the bus services. They are already going to put the railway past the airport (again at vast expense) so why do they need a tram there too?

11

zxc,

08/12/2006 13:00:44

Pull the plug on this now. It is already £53 MILLION over budget - another Holyrood scandal in the making.

12

Alexander,

Edinburgh 08/12/2006 13:13:59

If this report is correct, there will be no problem financing the tram network. Stagecoach, Virgin, First Bus and a host of others will be keen to invest, all in my dreams, of course!

13

Thomas the Tank,

Edinburgh 08/12/2006 13:15:51

WELL, JINGS, CRIVENS HELP MA BOAB!! You could have knocked me down with a feather!! Given that these imaginative figures have been produced by TIE, whose senior ranks are stuffed with Cooncil employees already on the brink of comfortable retirement, and we know they're going to be approved by vain, stupid Councillors who know they'll be well out of the way when the chickens start to come home to roost, is anybody really surprised? Did anybody really expect a report saying this Legacy Project would be a millstone round our necks for decades to come?

14

àstro türf,

08/12/2006 13:21:56

Bearing in Mind that this is December it leaves two months (- the christmas break) to arrange all the contracts.

Delays. Who project manages this stuff and can you give the job to me instead?

15

Dunaskin,

Edinburgh 08/12/2006 13:23:52

Public projects such as this are not expected to recover their capital costs. The £500m (say) is not the issue - the issue is whether the revenue will cover the running costs.
In a sense we all (from Penzance to the Shetlands) are paying for this as it is funded by Holyrood, which is funded by Whitehall. £500m is a drop in the ocean of Govt finances.
And Edinburgh's streets are plenty wide enough. Go look at trams abroad and you will see that they run along many streets narrower than those planned for TL1. And Edinburgh's street plan long predates trams (or cars), and so I don't see why they can't be reinstated. I don't think there is a city centre in the world which was planned around trams.

16

sceptic,

livingston 08/12/2006 13:25:22

Stagecoach paid £1 for the £320m Sheffield system, they will need to shell out £2 for the £500m ( probably nearer £700m if it is built) Edinburgh system.

17

Concerned of Stockbridge,

08/12/2006 13:34:34

"THE Capital's trams vision today took a huge step forward as its backers unveiled a business plan which showed the scheme was viable and would deliver hundreds of millions of pounds worth of benefits. "

Wonderful news - mind you, dozens of businesses with optomistic business plans end up in bankruptcy proceedings every week. They simply disappear with their backers stigmatised as undischarged bankrupts. Luckily that won't happen with Trams as the ratepayers of Edinburgh will always be there to be bled dry to prop up the Cooncilors new toy.

18

jbascotinengland,

08/12/2006 13:35:23

Having just moved from Edinburgh to Newcastle where they have a metro system in place I can see the advantages of having one.

That said the Newcastle metro was put in place decades ago when it would have cost less.

It also services the whole city and surrounding area.

And is well run, something that, given ECC track record, you just know this won't be.

Does anyone else feel that there is just not enough accountability in this project (and the public sector in general)

If it was such a good idea, why were the trams scrapped, why haven't they been reintroduced before now and where are all the comments supporting the project from the public and business leaders?

19

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 08/12/2006 13:37:23

Dunaskin #5. £500m is a huge sum of money, equivalent to 2.5 years council tax for Edinburgh. It is not a drop in the ocean. It is also taxpayers money - it belongs to me, and you, and it should be spent wisely.

As for your comment that the project is not required to cover its capital costs, why not? The Forth Road Bridge (a much more important project) was? If a project cannot justify its initial investment through ongoing returns (whether they be financial or measured otherwise) it should not be instigated.

People, companies, Goverments all have competing priorites for resources. At a time when we hear of chronic shortages in the NHS it is a disgrace that the key question of could the £700m+ that this thing is likely to cost be better spent elsewhere has NEVER been raised.

TIE tells lies.

20

Concerned of Stockbridge,

08/12/2006 13:37:26

No. 16:

"I don't think there is a city centre in the world which was planned around trams."

Which is why no vehicles with a footprint larger than a coach and four should be allowed in the city centre, including trams and any form of bus larger than a long wheelbase Transit van (what ever happened to the Hoppa buses - at least they didn't cause massive blockages).

21

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 08/12/2006 13:38:43

Typo - Dunaskin you are #16, not #5.

22

big man,

longstone 08/12/2006 13:40:36

when all this is completed, what will happent to bus services in edinburgh which are on the same routes as the trams ?, the service 22 will probably dissapear just like many other services, and what will happen to the bus drivers because it will be 100% gaurenteed they will have to go elsewhere, it's easy to say put them on other routes, but now doubt, Lrt will come up with something different, this city does not need trams, the money could be put to better use elsewhere, ie housing, this project will be the same as the Scottish Parly, overbudget and a white elephant, why bring back trams when the city decided to get rid of them years ago.

23

William of Liberton,

08/12/2006 13:42:31

It is interesting that most of the arguments against a modern tramway system are similar to those used against the installation of a public water and sewerage supply over 150 years ago: not necessary, expensive, too much disruption, etc, etc.

24

Billy C,

Muirhouse 08/12/2006 13:42:36

the trams are bound to get vandalised if they come to muirhoose!

25

Ang,

08/12/2006 13:43:40

#6 The idea that Edinburgh's streets are not wide enough for separate tram lanes is complete nonsense. If you have ever been to Amsterdam you will know that most streets are much narrower than those Edinburgh and that the trams run without a problem. Indeed, there is a street 'Leidsestraat' which is as wide as Rose street which has a tram line running though it.

26

Road Raga,

08/12/2006 13:56:15

The anti tram lot were moaning about no business case.
Well here it is folkes.

Now it is cries of 'its fake', 'its all made up' .

27

eric,

08/12/2006 13:59:55

I dont see it happening .

28

Filled Rolls,

08/12/2006 14:02:13

Personally I think the people who are trying to "sell this" to us would have a problem selling soft drinks in hell. I have seen the posters around the town and have to question the statements made on them.

Apparently trams are vital to Edinburgh's economic growth and its position as a player on the world stage. Why is that then?

Having met a few of the guys who are running the thing, this doesn't surprise me - their communication skills are apalling. Having had two in my cab, I can confirm that they are incapable of giving a straight answer to a question.

29

éstro törf,

08/12/2006 14:05:08

Thats cause it hasnt started yet Eric.

30

Tomsk,

The Real World 08/12/2006 14:07:52

Tell us, William #25, from your recollections, did they already have a perfectly adequate public water and sewerage system in place 150 years ago when they proposed the new installation. If not, then you are not comparing like with like.

31

Ang,

08/12/2006 14:11:41

#30 Maybe you asked the wrong questions?
However, here are some simple answers as to why trams are a good thing:

- they are faster than buses
- they carry more people than buses
- they run on rails and do not get stuck in traffic as much as buses
- the typical Scot who thinks that buses are for the poor is more likely to use trams
- they cause less streetside pollution than buses
- they are easier to use for the disabled/those with kids than Edinburgh's old buses

There are plenty of other cities which have them and they work. The only real issue that needs to be debated is whether the cynical Edinburgers want to pay for new infrastructure, or whether they wish to remain in the public transport stone age.

32

Tomsk,

The Real World 08/12/2006 14:12:57

Now all we need, Road Raga #28, is an independent business case and we will all be happy.

Tell me, would you support a proposal for a city-wide referendum on this?

The Council don't want one -- hmmm, I wonder why!

33

eric,

Lothian 08/12/2006 14:13:16

Its a good idea ,Because i shop in Glasgow all the time and visit freinds in Glasgows West end,The Glasgow Underground is a Brilliant fast On time system and gets you in and out the city centre very Quickly,And has Park n ride car parks at certain tube stations.Now they are going to extend it to the Airport and other parts of Glasgow ,It will be good for Edinburgh to have something similar.

34

Rubbersnap,

08/12/2006 14:17:05

Trams in Edinburgh are a waste of time, energy and money. Plus, they're not big enough for all the fatties who'll climb aboard and need TWO seats instead on one!

35

eric,

Lothian 08/12/2006 14:22:47

36:)

36

GrahamH,

08/12/2006 14:33:10

This could be scheme that forever consigns Labour to being also rans in local politics!


To reintroduce something that failed 50 years previously is crazy. Technology not going to change ice in a city on 7 hills.

How can creating town centre congestion, an inflexible large bus on rails be a good idea.

The last labour scheme in Edinburgh cost millions and was ripped up last year after a few months. To rip this one up will be of a much different scale and this chaos and waste of money will not be easily forgiven.

For the CO'2 argument of trams v buses, remember methane is 23 times more problamatic to the ozone layer and the supporters of this are full of methane creating substance!

37

Anti-taxi Anti-tram,

Edinburgh (though I wish I wasn't!) 08/12/2006 14:39:45

This is balls. Having worked on both sides of the private and public sectors I am aware that any figures presented in business cases have a certain amount of speculation. In other words...Lies. This is a poor case for the tram. It is not a system, it goes nowhere and will cost double that of the estimates in the business case. How also can they turn area and say it will be in profit after 2 years? Is this because of the students they will be moving from campus to campus. They must have struct a deal somewhere....
Come, put the X where it belongs... vote the half wits out! And don't forget that there is road works coming near you soon if you are on a route and your Councillor is for this laughable idea before the elections so all the more reason to get him/her out for lying through their teeth!

38

blah, blah, blah,

08/12/2006 14:48:28

Thankfully I have my own vehicle, so never have to use public transport.

39

Wingman,

Edinburgh 08/12/2006 14:54:27

35# yea but this underground is going to be on the ground in the middle of roads.
I have doubts on the integrity of any figures given after the Parliament fiasco.

40

Agent 99,

08/12/2006 15:03:49

[36] It's a pity Marie Antoinette hasn't been around these forums for a few weeks. Anyway, I'll say it for her:

Let them stand.

41

Repton,

edinburgh 08/12/2006 15:12:40

I honestly think this still is an April fool as you`d have to be bonkers to believe this lot of bull,Romanov would have me believing before this lot .
We have an exellent bus service and this object is going to be to the detriment of buses getting about.It`s a complete no brainer by a bunch of brainless idiots in the council.Problem is these idiots are dangerous.Nobody bar them wants this wastefull tram which is not needed.The bus service in this city is more than adequete.Why put a tram to the airport when you have a 15 min bus service.People coming back with luggage want a taxi to their door and business people want door to door service too.A waste of public resources..

42

Agent 99,

08/12/2006 15:14:12

[38]: Technology not going to change ice in a city on 7 hills.

Wrong. Simply and utterly wrong. Design of contemporary trams is light years ahead of what was on Edinburgh's street's 50 years ago. There is a tram line in Zurich which runs up a hill to the Zoo. It's at least as steep as the Mound; get's a bit interesting in leaf fall season, but that's simply a matter of regularly clearing leaf mulch. The trams themselves leap up that hill. No reason why it couldn't be done in Edinburgh.

The ice is also a simple matter for defrosting equipment. But then, given the general level of preparedness in Scotland for winter's onslaught, I would have some doubts too, but they would be anchored in the operational rather than technological sphere.

Bring some adult arguments Graham.

43

äsbo turf,

08/12/2006 15:18:22

Ive just noticed that Tram in the picture above is going to Edinburgh. The question is - where is it coming from ?

Boswell, Marie Antoinette is alive and well.. somewhere.

44

Mentorscotus,

08/12/2006 15:18:23

If the capital does not want them,we will have them.

45

,

08/12/2006 15:21:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 218016, Article id was mapped to record!
46

Spondoolicks,

08/12/2006 15:23:44

These lovely new trams will make the city look great. The tourists will love them and will modernise the city.

If encourages a few more people out of the cars so I can drive quickly to work then all the better.

The Scottish Exec, which gets loads of cash from Westminster, is paying for mosty of it. I thought everyone would be delighted at the English paying for our shiny new trams!

Glasgow will be dead jealous too (by the way!)

47

Concerned of Stockbridge,

08/12/2006 15:32:49

#33

Unlike buses, a tram newtwok requires a MASSIVE infrastructure project to be put in place first.

This will need thousands of tons of steel and concrete to be produced generating millions of cubic feet of "greenhouse gases". So will the fleets of contractors vehicles beavering away in the city centre for years to come, probably inconsequential compared with the tens of thousands of gallons of fuel wasted in traffic snarl ups generated by the infrastructure work. This will generate a negative equity in terms of "greenhouse gases" directly generated by bringing this white elephant into being that will take decades if not generations for the paltry savings to offset.

That doesn't matter - I quizzed TIE on this point and discovered that it had never been considered. So we have the economics of the madhouse coupled to kindergarden level eco-nuttery - now that's world class (whatever that meaningless phrase is supposed to convey).

48

St pauli,

08/12/2006 15:34:45

This is the first step in delivering a truly integrated public transport system in Edinburgh. Personally I think they will be great for the city, helping reduce congestion and boosting the cities image.

I truly wonder what those that oppose them would have instead – even more buses, 5 lane overhead freeways, hover-cars???

49

Mong basher,

08/12/2006 15:38:07

Trams are rubbish


1. They are no good to go anywhere else except on their rails.

2. What possible advantage is there in having a rail sysem to begin with when you can have wheels which do the same thing and are more versatile.

3. Existing infrastructure will get ripped up to make way for the trams causing traffic chaos, the very thing trams are supposed to be alleviating.

4. Trams are horiffically energy inneficient compared to buses. Coal gets burned to make electricity ( with a substantial loss of energy in the process due to inneficiency), that electricity then gets pumped down power lines, loosing energy every mile, then finally it gets converted into motion at the tram whose engine will also introduce further inneficiency. While this may result in less kerbside pollution the powerstation down the road will be belching out far more CO2 and SO2. Fantastic.

This tram route has not been thought out as a strategic way of getting round the city. It is not a network and is going to change NOTHING.

THE answer to Edinburgh congestion is simple.

BAN THE SCHOOL RUN.

That is all that needs to happen. Fat kids - walk to school. ever tried driving round edinburgh in school hols - it's a breeze.

That as far as I see it is the plain and simple truth of how to solve edinburghs traffic issues. Walk to school.

50

Concerned of Stockbridge,

08/12/2006 15:40:52

#51

How does a single line with one stop on Princes Street and no stops within 300 yards of Waverley or the Bus Station count as an element of an INTEGRATED public transport "system"?

No, it's just another profligate toy for oor cooncilors to colour in (trying not to go over the lines) in their "Big Boys I-Spy book of ludicrous vehicles" to pass the time while they taxi around the town.

51

Mong basher,

08/12/2006 15:45:14

# 50 - you are bang on.

Environemental costs of construction must be part of the economic equation or it is meaningless.

But hey - what do I care. I live on a hill. When Edinburgh is under water I'll be laughing my ass off.

52

St pauli,

08/12/2006 15:48:38

#53

so trams would be ok with you if they had more stops?

I did say 1st step! We can always put a few more stops in, what we can't do is stick our heads in the sand and do nothing while more and more cars take to the road!

53

Kinghorn Boy,

obvious 08/12/2006 15:50:07

I can't understand why they don't just buy a few of the new Mercedes Benz articulated (bendy) hydrogen powered buses - no pollution, no construction upheaval and maximum flexibility at much, much less cost.

54

munch,

Edinburgh 08/12/2006 15:51:41

#49 - I don't think Glasgow will even notice, never mind be jealous. They've always had a far better public transport system than Edinburgh, not just the Underground and the train network that goes to all parts of the city but also proper bus services that turn up on time.

Instead of spending wads of cash on consultants they should've just got in touch with Glasgow council and asked them how they've managed to keep the ciy moving for all these years.

55

Concerned of Stockbridge,

08/12/2006 15:52:24

#55

The point is that there will be one bus interchange on Princes street but absolutely no interchanges (apart from getting off the tram with all your luggage and hailing a taxi) with rail and long distance bus networks so the single tram line (calling it a network is like calling my single vehicle a fleet of car) is integrated with nothing.

56

Mong basher,

08/12/2006 15:53:49

#56 - Exactly. What the hell is to be gained by having a whole new bus system that can only go on rails. Why not just have buses.

If anyone can supply me with a realistic reason why trams are better than buses I'll back this thing.

57

Mong basher,

08/12/2006 15:55:56

The reason is trams are "quaint". they seem "nice", so they're probably a good idea. They run on electricity not those dirty fossil fuels so they're better for te environment. And hey, the energy involved in creating a system for them to run on doesn;t have to be part of the equation because we're only interested int he nice after effects, after all, trams are shiny.

58

Edward,

08/12/2006 15:58:18

#6 They have a great tram set up in Lisbon and much of the central city area, the atreets are narrower than you find in Edinburgh, and parts are up hills, similar to Edinburgh

59

,

08/12/2006 15:58:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 218139, Article id was mapped to record!
60

Mong basher,

08/12/2006 16:01:00

#61 yeah but I bet the trams actually go where they are needed, they have an actual network, they were probably already there as a legacy from when they were easy to build/install and we weren;t worried about CO2 or Pollution

61

Edward,

08/12/2006 16:01:22

No wonder Edinburgh is ham strung when it comes to competing with other cities. The people are so unbeleivably negative

62

St pauli,

08/12/2006 16:02:11

#58
so on that basis are you against trams on principle, or against the specifics of this scheme?

anyway as far as I can see line one stops at St.Andrew’s Sq/Waverley haymarket, Edinburgh Park and the Airport – seems pretty integrated to me

#52
maybe we could get fat children to pull the trams, hence getting them fit and saving on electricity and unnecessary pollution

63

Benny,

Edinburgh 08/12/2006 16:06:09

All I ever read on here is comments from moaners.

I'm going to revel when we have a modernised city.

64

äsbo turf,

08/12/2006 16:09:24

Im going to Revel too, too many negative grumpy potato faced indivuduals in Edinburgh. Theres something wrong with them.

65

BorderGuy,

08/12/2006 16:22:09

How exactly is this going to alleviate traffic problems?? As far as I can see, it's going to mean being stuck in a wee electric rain on Princes Street rather than a bus.

Give 10% of the money to the bus companies to buy more of these eco-friendly buses. Will help the environment, and won't be such a ridiculous waste of money.

66

Liz,

08/12/2006 16:28:46

in response to #33

However, here are some simple answers as to why trams are a good thing:
- they are faster than buses
Only if they go where you need to go to

- they carry more people than buses
If we went for more "Continental" style busses this would not be true - many buses in Europe have large standing areas and minimal seating - and no ticket checks by the driver so the bus does not get held up for so long.

- they run on rails and do not get stuck in traffic as much as buses
But often the rails are in the same place as where traffic is so this will not change. not to mention how bad the rails are for cyclists.

- the typical Scot who thinks that buses are for the poor is more likely to use trams
Again only if the tram goes where they want to go

- they cause less streetside pollution than buses
Possibly, but- there is no reason why we couldnt have electric buses.
- they are easier to use for the disabled/those with kids than Edinburgh's old buses
Most of the newer busses that are on the main Edinburgh routes are now disabled/kid friendly anyway.

67

David n' Goliath,

Edinburgh 08/12/2006 16:31:30

I've never heard anyone in Hannover, Marseilles, Berlin, Salzburg, Berlin or Amsterdam wish that they had no trams like Edinburgh.

Sure, the line does not go everywhere and there will be disruption. No pain - no gain!

Once a few such lines are up and running the city will be transformed.

(the cost benefit ratio for EARL has just been trashed by extra tax on flying, and executive desire to transfer domestic travel to the railways!)

68

Concerned of Stockbridge,

08/12/2006 16:35:00

#65

"as I can see line one stops at St.Andrew’s Sq/Waverley haymarket, Edinburgh Park and the Airport – seems pretty integrated to me"

If you think that the tram line takes a loop off the top of Leith walk to go round St Andrew's Square, then down the hill into Waverley, then back uphill to Princes Street, then I presume that you also believe that there are fairies at the bottom of your garden.

Line 1 proceeds along Princes Street, past St Andrews Square and Waverley, about an easy £2 taxi fare away fro each (nothing to our taxi lovin' expenses fuelled coonciloors).

69

Concerned of Stockbridge,

08/12/2006 16:37:07

#70

Interesting point, however we're not talking about getting rid of trams, we're talking about reinstating a system that was disposed of as outdated in the 1960's.

70

Tomsk,

08/12/2006 16:45:55

#62. Oh Edward! What would Nanny think?

Is that the best you can come up with?

Your insults have the same impact as your arguments -- powder puff.

71

TW,

Edinburgh 08/12/2006 16:46:48

23000 new homes at Leith and Granton? Has someone not told them that they can't sell the ones that they have already built down there. I don't think having a tram service will make that much difference.
They are also trying to sell homes at Granton on the basis that there will be a marina development to brighten the area up, this is not true. The latest plans do not include a marina, which is a disgrace.

72

George F,

Michigan USA 08/12/2006 16:56:32

£592m, a bargain. Oh to be an Edinburgh tax payer again.

73

Liz,

08/12/2006 17:02:21

#70 a correction

Salzburg does not have trams - it has buses that are electric in the City but revert to standard fuel once outside the city centre.

http://www2.salzburg.info/praktisches_2535.htm

I think that some of the Edinburgh Councilers should go there - the bus service is excellent and quick (funny how the only country that uses double decker buses (the UK) has one of the worst bus services). Most of the problems with the buses are Edinburgh are caused by the length of time that it takes people to get on and off them. In Salzburg there are huge doors at the front and the back of ths bus to make sure everything moves quickly - conductors patrol regularly to check tickets none of this queuing up whilst 20 people check in their ridacards.....

74

TRUE RED,

08/12/2006 17:12:12

A yet again the TRAMS!!!!!!
point 1. All the jobs will come from the redundant bus drivers . so no new jobs just a displaced job market.
point 2. In profit within 2 years the jokes keep getting better.
Come on the lunatics are still running the asylum, aswell as the Scottish Parliament and The city of Edinburgh Council.
I predict that a certain Labour Councillor will get a shock at the polls in May

75

Mallory,

08/12/2006 17:14:11

TIE say 30,000 passengers a day with trams every 10 minutes. 6 Trams an hour, 0600 through 0100 say.

So twelve an hour (presumably they travel each way) over a nineteen hour day.

So each bus will carry how many? 26?

How many passengers does a double decker carry?

Oh I forgot - most passengers will buy return travel so do TIE count passenger journeys or passengers?

What a Mickey Mouse business plan - only made possible by vast sums from tax and rates payers committed by a council which whose members are jumping ship and pockleting the £20k severance pay.

76

zxc,

08/12/2006 17:26:03

Don't let BALFOUR BEATTY/HADEN BUILDING MANAGEMENT anywhere near the contract.

77

abracadabra,

08/12/2006 17:37:23

The service will be in profit within two years of its 2010 start date? £592,000,000 in fares in two years?who are we kidding here, the taxpayer will be left with this burden and no profit will ever be seen.

78

GP,

08/12/2006 17:40:03

I hope it comes off and works well.
It is just a shame that Leith has to show Edinburgh how to do things the right way once again.

79

zxc,

08/12/2006 17:46:03

#66 - Why don't you try being less selective & read some comments from non-moaners as well ?

80

Lang Spoon,

Leith 08/12/2006 17:52:07

I despair!

2 stops on Leith Walk and 1 on Princes St?

No other public transport on Leith Walk?

Are TIE out of their tiny minds?

The public, luckily, have votes, and can put a stop to this nonsense by voting SNP (if they, in turn, promise to cancel the trams!)

81

Euan,

Edinburgh 08/12/2006 17:55:50

I think the tram prosposal is an extremely worrying situation for Edinburgh.

All I can see is a vast amount of taxpayers money being poured down the drain.

I'm convinced it's the 'Let's be European' bug that has been contracted by the designers of this ludicrous scheme.

Working profit within 2 years?? - Come on, who are they trying to kid?

Even if the total costs hit £600 million(!!), it will take decades for the money to be brought back in through fares etc.

This is simply another stunt to try and make people believe the tram system will work in Edinburgh.

It article doesn't fool me and I hope it fails to convert any other readers of it.

82

Euan,

Edinburgh 08/12/2006 17:59:26

Petrol Head (no.6) says it all.

83

leith keely,

leith 08/12/2006 18:57:52

tomsk, idiotic posting #7, i take it you drive your own vehicle so what i think of you is unprintable.

84

WHBS,

Leeds 08/12/2006 19:00:50

Can someone explain to me the benefit of removing the rubber wheels from perfectly good buses and replacing them with metal ones on trams? What's the difference = apart from making a few people a great deal of money. Or am I being cynical?

85

BusOff,

08/12/2006 19:29:48

Edinburgh had a wonderful opportunity to build a dual carriageway around the north of the city heading to the east and linking up with the by-pass giving an orbital road around the city. At the moment the by-pass is clogged with traffic trying to get from one bottleneck to another (Hermiston Gate/Sheriff Hall Roundabout) All this development in the Granton/Newhaven/Leith area but no adquate new roads to help the new homeowners get around quickly. Instead of spending these massive amounts of money on a tram car line - get the motorist moving first. What about a Forth Tunnel unaffected by High Winds etc etc etc!!
The busses run around with hardly any passengers after 6.30 most nights - Why do they think trams will bring in passengers. We cannot compare against other cities that have had a tram infrastructure for many years. To spend all this money on one tramline is madness. Cars are here to stay in one form or another so provide the roads required and leave a well run bus servie in place -- After all wasn't Lothian Buses A Council Controlled body voted the 'Best' in the UK!
Nil Desperandum

86

Phil o Brian,

08/12/2006 19:38:00

The future is road pricing. The Govt has already said they are going to bring it in. If that is the case, why do we need trams as well? With less cars on the road, the current buses will do an excellent job.
This may also sort out the school run, which an earlier post highlighted as the main problem in Edinburgh.
Also, the interest cost on the 600m at say 6% is 36m per annum. How many hospitals could you build per year for the interest alone.

87

rof,

South Yorkshire 08/12/2006 19:49:42

Aah, what a lovely fairytale, so now its off to sleep and all set for another day in paradise tomorrow.

88

Sas,

Edinburgh 08/12/2006 20:05:20

Most posters on here would rather we did nothing about anything. Comparisons with the old tram system 50 years ago are irrelevant, half the rail lines in the UK were closed under Beeching and that's been proved to be a big mistake. There are flaws in the tram system proposed but I, for one, fully support the Council in trying to do something imaginative about the transport situation.

89

AB_R,

08/12/2006 20:13:35

Why is it that despite the fact that TIE state the tram will be in profit within 2 years we don't see anything regarding how much it will cost to travel on the tram?

To be able to come up with the figures they must have an idea of the charges.

As an aside, we will have one line, the figures state that trams can carry 20,000 passengers per hour. At 400 people on a tram that would take 50 trams. Nearly 1 per minute. In other words tail to tail trams.

90

Phil o Brian,

08/12/2006 21:40:46

Sorry Sas. I think most people just don't like this scheme. Lots of support for a new bridge etc. In fact, its about time we got on with improving the transport system in Scotland (and connections to England) and stop talking about it.
I think the borders rail line is a case in point. Probably does not stack up in an economic sense, but it feels like the right thing to do to bring some life into the borders.

91

Capitalistic,

Edinburgh 08/12/2006 22:38:02

It is great to see that so many people thinks the same as I do that this tram scheme is nothing more than an idea on paper being brought to fruition by a councils ego larger than the public purse. There is no justification for these trams. Do councelors ever get out of there offices and actually speak to people. I have written to them a number of times now complaining about this plan and have received nothing but a thanks and PR material in return - no dialogue and no reasoned arguement. This scheme will go ahead - sadly

92

Statsman,

09/12/2006 00:18:05

We have a large network of disused urban railways that would not interfere with traffic if reopended. Instead, we decide to replace the 22 bus route with trams at a huge cost.

The supporters of this project seem to like the idea of trams purely because they are shiny, new and different. Shiny and different is not an economical or logical case. The 22 bus route does its job perfectly well.

The money should not be used to duplicate a perfectly good bus service. It should have a different angle. This proposed tram service has not one.

In Manchester, the only successful modern UK tram scheme, the tram replaced the Manchester-Bury line on reserved track. It succeeded because it built on an already successful rail service. The advantage is that it does not have to share roadspace and saves time.

All other schemes have failed because they have simply replaced buses with a service either the same as or worse than what was there before.

We need a metro or underground, not a roadspace sapping scheme that will do nothing more than replace a bus service. This is lunacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newcastle_Metro

93

Statsman,

09/12/2006 00:34:31

The Madrid Underground was extended at a cost of £45m per mile. For £562m, we could get 12.5 miles of underground track through Edinburgh. For the real likely cost of this tram folly, probably around £1bn - £1.5bn we could get 22-33 miles of underground.

Bear in mind, a lot of track could be above ground using our existing disused urban railway lines vastly reducing the cost.

http://www.railwatch.org.uk/backtrack/rw107/rw107p10s.pdf

Half a billion for something that does EXACTLY the same as an existing bus service is a CRIMINAL misuse of public funds.

Wake up!

94

Statsman,

09/12/2006 01:01:44

I wish to add, the whole question of urban rail links in Edinburgh has been hamstrung by the same environmentalists that have pushed for the trams.

These are not people with a transport knowledge. When the reserved line through Craigleith was proposed, it was not the people it would carry they disputed, simply that badgers and cyclists would be inconvenienced.

The council bought into this nonsense and then proposed narrower trams that are not ideal for moving people. Less people in a tram is less efficient.

Citizens of Edinburgh need to realise that the transport agenda is being pushed by underqualified people and pressure groups that, themselves, have a mixed agenda. The Greens want green transport but not at the expense of cyclists and badgers. The Greens are full of cyclists and animal rights extremists so can't seem to grasp concepts of greater need.

The biggest opponents of windfarms are greens on the grounds birds get hit by the blades. The green agenda is a farce. This is why we keep getting left with compromises that benefit few and end up de facto fiscal suicide.

95

Lefty LeMur,

not here 09/12/2006 01:49:30

66 - lol. too true. moaning is a profession in these forums.

i mean come on.. edinburgh is devoid of any subway system - which is a pity when you consider that Edinburgh has a population close to 500,000. Now, the hilly geography of the capital probably (speculating here..) makes subways hard to implement.. so what's wrong with going ahead with a tram system? True, Edinburgh's streets aren't massively wide, but i'm sure something can be worked out..

96

Jhn,

Edinburgh 09/12/2006 08:23:38

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.

97

eric,

lothian 09/12/2006 08:59:29

57 True And Now Glasgow is proposing and Extention to Its Underground To its airport and other parts of the city ,I to like the way Glasgow does things ,It really does have to keep the city on the go.So it does things about it,And now theres a 2nd new bridge being built over the Clyde,Well Done Glasgow ,All we have to do is look at our sister city and learn something,

98

roberto,

09/12/2006 10:50:36

thank god the evening news show a mock up photo of a tram on an edinburgh street(or from manchester,dublin etc) almost every day cause my mind would really struggle to imagine what it would look like on it's own

99

AWGL,

Palm Desert, California 09/12/2006 15:37:48

ROAD RAGA

Guaranteed, the "robust study" is a total bunch of hogwash! Did anyone really believe you would see an honest and well thoughtout business case? These are politicians we're dealing with! More and more they're being described as morons who couldn't organize a drinking party in a brewery! You can take this to the bank:

FIVE YEARS FROM NOW THE ENTIRE POPULATION OF EDINBURGH WILL KNOW THEY WERE SOLD A TOTAL BILL OF GOODS - AND THOSE THAT COMMITTED THIS "CRIME" WILL BE LONG GONE AND WILL BE LAUGHING ALL THE WAY TO THAT SAME BANK!!!!!!!

100

Jack Mack,

San Francisco, CA 10/12/2006 09:09:29

Teens and Twenty Somethings. Keep a copy of this and related articles. It will provide you with interesting information in twenty or so years.

I seem to remember some similar arguements in the fifties when Edinburgh decided to scrap the trams. I can still see that last number 27 or was it a 23

In addition to our money making, 6 Miles per Hour Cable Cars (invented by a Scotsman) our next most popular mode of transportation is our Historic Tram Cars. They concist of Trams from all over the world. We even have a Blackpool Open Boat Tram Car (We call tham Street Cars here as opposed to Rail Road Cars). On a hectic day I would walk out of my office accross the street and hop on a Cable Car for for half an hour or so. Nothing better to clear the mind.

I can see a cable car line running from the foot of the Mound up to the High Street, right up to the Castle and Left down tp Hollyrood Palace, past the new building called Parliment. It could even be extended up George IV Bridge past Heriot's to Tollcross then down to the West End and back to the Mound. The options are limitless. The last time I looked there was a short piece of cable car track just to the East of the old GPO. I hope you preserved it.

Do I think you're on the Wrong Track, YES. Focus on the workers who will use trams to get to work. With properly designated lanes they cut through congestion and get workers to their jobs faster than they can drive. In forty years of business travel (up to three times a month) I took public transportation only twice (DC to National) and that was because the meeting ended early.

The Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART) link from San Francisco to San Francisco Airport is a total failure. The only thing that keeps this line alive is the fact that it picks up South Bay commuters at a nearby station who park for free and get an easy ride into The City.


 

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