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The great schools shutdown

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Published Date: 17 August 2007
MORE than two-dozen schools, nurseries and community centres across Edinburgh have been earmarked for closure, The Scotsman can reveal.

Facing the Axe

Some critics last night accused the city council of "social engineering" by planning to axe some schools which were popular with parents while protecting others that had poorer reputations.

The proposals - which were obtained by The Scotsman in advance of their official release today - are intended to tackle falling school rolls as part of the local authority's £10 million cost-cutting programme.

The hitlist of 22 schools features 13 primaries, three secondaries and six nurseries, plus four community centres.

Victoria Primary in Newhaven is among those at risk. However, nearby Fort Primary, which is in one of the city's most deprived areas and considered less popular with parents, will remain open.

Stockbridge Primary also faces the axe, despite being almost at capacity, because most of its pupils come from outside the immediate area.

One highly placed education source last night accused the council of "social engineering".

He added: "They want to close popular schools and move children into unpopular ones. If money is so tight and we have to look at changes, it should be the unpopular schools that close."

The source claimed the list of 16 closure-threatened primary and high schools failed to "take nearly enough account of what parents want".

Under the plans, Wester Hailes Education Centre, Castlebrae High and Drummond High would all shut.

Parents at the affected schools are due to be notified today. Final decisions will be made following a consultation period of about nine months.

Ewan Aitken, the council's Labour group leader, last night criticised the proposals. He said: "This is not just about numbers or exam results - it's about people. You cannot do this by the numbers. It's much more important than that."

Mr Aitken suggested it was "astonishingly naive" to suggest that such a major consultation could be completed in just nine months. Iain Whyte, the city's Tory leader, added: "It seems madness to close schools when people want to send their children there.

"We will want to see the proposals in much more detail, but they have not taken account of parental wishes in coming up with this plan."

The council's education department overspent by £8.6 million last year, largely due to the growing demand for services for vulnerable youngsters. In June, it emerged that the council faced a £10 million budget black-hole.

The Liberal Democrat-SNP coalition insists widespread cuts are the only way to avoid an 8 per cent rise in council-tax bills next year. The local authority hopes to save as much as £2.5 million by closing the schools, nurseries and community centres.

Colin Mackay, Edinburgh secretary of the EIS teaching union, raised questions about why some of the schools had been targeted.

He said: "Areas of multiple deprivation are the areas where schools should be safeguarded because they have a breadth of expertise in dealing with the social problems there.

"If you close the schools, you move the problems elsewhere, to schools without the expertise and the breadth of experience needed."

But he added: "At the end of the day, the council needs to trim the number of desks because they don't have the right number of bums to put on seats."

A council spokeswoman last night refused to discuss the plans until parents had been told. But she added: "This is being done for educational purposes.

"We have falling school rolls. We need to make more efficient use of buildings and provide the best education for children."

• ALMOST 8,000 council workers in the capital are set to strike next week in protest against cuts to services.

Members of Unison voted by over two-to-one to take action on Thursday unless assurances are received that measures to deal with a £10 million budget shortfall will not include redundancies.

The walk-out is timed to coincide with an Edinburgh City Council meeting where a decision is due to be made on the cuts.

George Lee, Unison's Edinburgh branch secretary, said: "Even at this late stage, the council's own staff and their union have been kept in the dark about what the cuts options are. The only thing the council has been clear about is that it cannot rule out redundancies."

John Ross, the union's service conditions convener, added: "Many council staff are already under huge pressures to manage services without the resources they need. They cannot take any more and that is why our members have voted for action.

"This is not about waste or overspends, it is about unrealistic budgets and staff struggling to maintain services."

About 30 per cent of Unison's members returned the ballot. The union said 70 per cent of respondents supported a strike.



The full article contains 823 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

druidh,

16/08/2007 23:39:19

On the strike:

The actual figures were 1,601 of the 8,000 balloted in favour - 20%. What sort of mandate is this?

2

CRAGman,

Capital city Edinburgh 16/08/2007 23:41:12

Bingham no more - there's surely a way of keeping a reduced size Lismore primary school open with a community centre wing incorporated. Surplus land can be sold off for housing in order to help meet the necessary budget reductions. If rented out such housing could provide annual contributions to the education budget if the will was there.

Closing Castlebrae only makes sense if a new Craigmillar secondary school is part of picture. Is that the case? If not, what are the implications for the new Portobello High School and Liberton High?
Craigmillar needs a new start - not obliteration.

3

Herr General,

Edinburgh 16/08/2007 23:53:19

Necessary services being cut in favour of what? What are the council prioritising over education and childcare?

The council should be looking at other costs to reduce, namely benefit claims and social work. That department in particular is a bottomless pit of cash showing no "value for money".

However I note the article fails to mention new primary schools scheduled for Granton.

4

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 16/08/2007 23:56:59

Soo Sad and pretty Mad!

5

Bien E. Bien,

17/08/2007 01:33:15

Drummond High School? What are the odds that this building will be turned into lovely "designer apartments"? Never mind where our kids go to school.

6

Ian_,

usa 17/08/2007 03:57:23

I went to Stockbridge primary in the 1950s and 60s. The area was a bit run down in those days but later it became very fancy. I wonder if selling a property in such a good location has influenced the council.

7

pmo nz,

New Zealand 17/08/2007 04:22:27

Is Wester Hailes the school with a young mums unit. If so we use it as an example of how school, community and such a unit can be combined. Would be terrible shame to close it.

8

,

17/08/2007 05:36:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 882944, Article id was mapped to record!
9

Media 1,

cape town 17/08/2007 06:27:08

This is just the beginning. Schools are closing down, pretty soon prisoners will be released by the dozen as jails deteriorate, health issues will be raised BUT we can all applaud the SNP for chasing down independence as opposed to tackling the real issues.

Well done Mr Salmond!

10

Black Five,

edinburgh {cloud cuckooland) 17/08/2007 06:27:55

Look the council has to get their act together over the spending carried out by the last council.There`s schools that are teaching too few pupils and economics say it`s closure time.You`d be moaning if the rates were too high so there`s got to be cuts somewhere.The council workers don`t like it too but that`s another story.

11

Black Five,

edinburgh {cloud cuckooland) 17/08/2007 06:32:37

We`ll send all the prisoners over to Cape Town ,Media.Salmonds the man and he`s like a breath of fresh air after this Labour mob.They are tryiing to get Wendy Alexander elected now as leader.With a mouth like that she`s probably related to the guy Tommy Stele used to sing about.We could use it to make a tunnel for the new Forth crossing.Now there`s an idea.

12

Old Town Resident,

17/08/2007 06:53:54

a scandal and a disgrace, Jenny Dawe`s proudest achievement (In Edin Chamber of Commerce Mag) is home schooling her 4 kids in Africa...well looks like I`lll be doing that, not out of upper middle class do gooding

13

Media 1,

cape town 17/08/2007 07:06:16

The problem with the SNP will be the same as that of the ANC.

The ANC fail miserably at everything. Policing is at its worst in the history of the nation. Corruption is rife, incompetence is stock standard and advancement has been replaced with regression. Murder and rape are no longer crimes, they are more like unpunishable hobbies. The ministers lack the political acumen to govern a nation, and most of them steal from the fiscal in some way or another.

But whenever they are questioned about the ongoing crisis and disintrigation of the country at large, they blame apartheid.

Now the SNP are nowhere near as incompetent as the ANC. They are not corrupt, they are not political novices, they are not economic virgins with no clue on how to run an economy, they are not short sighted, lacking in common sense or as lazy as the ANC. But when things go wrong, LABOUR will be blamed.

It will always be Labour's fault, the SNP will accept blame for nothing, and even more worrying is that some of the electorate will buy into their distortion of the truth.

Independence is an important issue, it would be naive to suggest otherwise. But Scotland needs to focus on its most pressing issues right now, and independence isnt one of them.

14

Jay Kay,

Dunfermline 17/08/2007 07:27:34

Instead of spending 4.6million in useless consultants and over inflated managers posts within all councils in Scotland we need to bin these people (no pun intended) as the councils shouldnt need to use consultants thats what they are paying the managers for, if they cant manage get bl**dy rid of the lot of them and save a couple of million a year in the wages.

I lay the Blame firmly at Labours door for this one.

15

Mikey,

17/08/2007 07:29:49

Let's say, Media1, that you take over a business. You have taken over the business thinking the outfit has only 'x' amount of debt. When you've handed over the money and moved in, you find that a lot of the debt has been hidden and the business you just bought is up to it's eyes in it.

The state of Embras finances are Labour's fault? Darn right they are! Like you, they didn't have a clue what they were talking about.

16

Serious Comment,

17/08/2007 07:31:20

All this nonsense about a financial 'black-hole' is a complete red-herring ... there's a £10million overspend pressure on an +£800million revenue budget - just over 1%!

The new Adminsitration just need to get on and sort it out - a 1% overspend is nothing unusual.

These closures are nothing to do with these ongoing revenue pressures and more to do with the Capital costs of the education estate.

Mind you, the way it's being proposed looks pretty rutal and ill-thought out.

17

Serious Comment,

17/08/2007 07:32:43

ooops - brutal, not rutal :-(

18

Hungry Joe,

17/08/2007 07:39:23

Media 1, sorry, I don't understand how you see this situation as being in any way the responsibility of the current Scottish Government? One might legitimately argue that the previous council had been incompetent and/or corrupt or that the previous government had failed to fund councils adequately or that the Westminster government had failed to return sufficient money to Scotland to allow the then Scottish government to fund councils adequately... but to use it as a basis for an attack on the SNP and independence might just suggest that you have an agenda?

I make no comment on your diatribe against the ANC as you live in S. Africa and I don't. Perhaps you might consider your own qualifications for commenting on Scottish politics?

19

Jams,

17/08/2007 07:44:43

Oh Mr Aitken - what a difference an election makes ! Seems to me that you ran away from a very similar set of proposals before the local election in an attempt to avoid defeat at the polls (Nae luck there then). Might I suggest that the paper trawl their archive for some quotable quotes to show just how far his coat has turned.

Something needs to be done, that is clear and it needs to refelct the condition of the buildings, the school roll (becasue of lots of people want to send their children there it must be doing something right) and what alternative provision there is locally. Unfortunately it all gets embroiled in politics and the decisions are made for all the wrong reasons.

Closing thought - if we have falling school rolls and too many places why are housing developers continually asked to contribute large sums of money to fund new schools ? Where is this money actually spent ?

20

Media 1,

cape town 17/08/2007 07:45:06

#20 Mikey: The state of Scotland's finances were openly available to the SNP. And who buys a company without first doing a comprehensive insepction of the books with the assistance of a legal team and a whole bunch of accountants?

You may suggest that Labour is to blame for some of the problems that exist, and you may be right. That does not mean that the SNP should be void of responsibility and accountability. The dangers with the SNP is that they appear to be a party who look for excuses as opposed to searching for solutions.

The other problem is that they appear to be spending too much time on independence as opposed to tackling the real issues facing Scotland.

Its a gamble, Salmond is merely playing dice! But thats his brand of politics.

21

JimC,

17/08/2007 07:47:55

20# Beat me to it mate, Media1 would have us believe that this is all the fault of the SNP. Labour legacy springs to mind immediately and any right minded person would see that this is the case. The story is also full of contradictions.
At the start it says “Victoria Primary in Newhaven is among those at risk. However, nearby Fort Primary, which is in one of the city's most deprived areas and considered less popular with parents, will remain open.” then it goes on to say “Colin Mackay, Edinburgh secretary of the EIS teaching union, raised questions about why some of the schools had been targeted.
He said: "Areas of multiple deprivation are the areas where schools should be safeguarded because they have a breadth of expertise in dealing with the social problems there. Make's you wonder who's best interests are being served and being Edinburgh I would also suspect there is a tough of class snobbery involved by many of these complaining.

22

Jim Smith,

17/08/2007 07:49:01

All quite astonishing ... not why anybody voted Lib-Dem or SNP I should imagine!

And I just don't recall any of this being in either of their local manifestos? Maybe I'm wrong ...

And politicians wonder why people are so hostile towards them!

23

Yetholm Hibee,

Abbeyhill 17/08/2007 07:53:01

This matter was raised a few years ago.
I still have the letter.

I bet the council paid out a fortune on 'consultancy' fees regarding this announcement.

Why is the east of Edinburgh being hammered - Meadowbank, Jack Kane, Pitts & schools being either run down or proposed to close.

I bet all these school sites are being ear marked for selling off to property developers.

Do the property developers run this country?

STOP building the TRAM system NOW!!!!!!

What is more important childrens education or a bloody useless, unnessessary tram system.

Has Edinburgh gone stark raving mad!

The lunatics are running the council & country!

Edinburgh is on the decline!


Bring back public whippings!

STOP building the TRAM system NOW!!!!!!

24

livilion,

livingston 17/08/2007 07:53:05

10. Rulesbutnotrulers, Don't blame me, I didn't vote for any of them.

Yes and a whopping 21.5% of the UK electorate voted to return New Labour to government in 2005.

If most of these workers cannot be ar$ed to vote then the political activists will get their way.
So what's new?

Do we have any indication as to how the decisions were come to on which schools were to close, and is there an avenue open to parents for questioning the selection?

I hope this isn't kids being used by councillors or shop stewards as a political football.

25

Media 1,

cape town 17/08/2007 07:53:41

#23 Hungry Joe: My comparison of the two political parties stem from experience.

The ANC told the people that they would deliver jobs, housing, education, safety and security. Today, there is less jobs available than ever before, the housing promises were false promises, education standards have dropped, safety is non existant, security is a joke, the police are incompetent and the border posts unmanned, hence the 5 million Zimbabwean refugees. Mugabe promised his people the same future as the ANC offered their people.

In both instances, the people involved are not to blame. Mugabe blames Britain for Zimbabwe's position, and the ANC blames apartheid for SA position. Whilst apartheid can be blamed for certain problems, it cannot be blamed for the current levels of incompetence, lack of common sense and government corruption levels.

When I hear the SNP supporters excusing the SNP for future errors based on Labours past, it reminds me of how dangerous that sort of thinking can become. The SNP must be held accountable for everything from now on. Their job is not to complain about the past, its to ensure that the future is better. Either they achieve it or they dont, but they cannot be excused from failure based on Labours past.

26

paulr,

17/08/2007 08:01:12

I am so glad the problems of my childrens education are behind me, dealing with the morons on the education authority is enough to drive you to drink.
Typically close the most successfull schools and keep the money pits open, Will they never learn, these may be in deprived areas but simply throwing good money after bad will not help.
Why should parents be forced to send their kids to a school where social problems are rife and unhealthy influences run wild?

27

James, Edinburgh,

17/08/2007 08:01:36

#2 Cragman. Just how many new starts do you want Craigmillar to have? Millions have been poured into this area for over thirty years and what benfit have 'The People' had? None - but their past political masters (and for the sake of not being sued I will not name them but we all know who they are) still run around 'running local agencies' at our expense.

28

livilion,

livingston 17/08/2007 08:01:57

Why is the school roll falling in Edinburgh?

Is it because it is not as attractive to live and work there with a family as it once was?

Why would that be?

Drive out cars, drive out shoppers, concentrate resources on yuppie farms by the shore.
Is that the sound of pidgeons coming home to roost?

Still, if we can clear out the natives so much more room for the tourists, eh?

29

Seoras McG,

Stockbridge 17/08/2007 08:02:05

So now we know the price of a Lib Dem / SNP Council. We all suffer, especially our children.

30

care4,

here 17/08/2007 08:03:06

One wonders if this is a direct result of the decisions taken by the council on the provision of residential care homes for the elderly.

These homes are set to cost in excess of £125,000 per room to provide and in total over £32 million.

When this provision was first mooted they were to cost £83,000 and private sector providers offered to supply them for £42,000 but were ignored. This appeared to be a case of political dogma getting in the way of prudent financial management.

It would appear that that particular wrong headed decision is finally coming home to roost.

As for Media 1's ascertion that the SNP will always blame Labour for the everything that goes wrong from now on he should look back to the first years of the New Labour government.

If schools underperformed it was because of lack of investment by the Tories. Poor care in the NHS . . . same culprits. Lack of good roads . . . same culprits. And so on and so on.

Only things which weren't blamed on the Tories were the new labour relations laws and the state of the ever growing economy.

31

Golfie,

Edinburgh 17/08/2007 08:03:26

The one group of people that seem to have been overlooked in the announcement is the effected staff themselves. My wife has the misfortune to be working at one of these schools and the first she was aware of it was this press announcement. Equally the local council seem to be hiding behind their desire to keep parents aware of their proposals. How about letting their own staff know as well? Perhaps the EIS would like to outline how they intend to protect their members.
It also highlights the complete disconnect in education strategy to continue to radically increase the number of teacher training places being offered at the same time when schools are being shut down. Perhaps the real plan is to train teachers for Malawi?

32

livilion,

livingston 17/08/2007 08:05:10

31. Media 1, cape town
Yes Labour didn't blame the Conservatives for their mistakes, they just fell in line and copied them, every one.

Blame Labour for future mistakes?
Now there's an interesting concept.

Any ideas on what these future mistakes were?

33

Natasha Kirby,

Grassmarket Nursery Parents Committee 17/08/2007 08:07:25

As parents the information concerning this matter was leaked to us back in May 07. I gave a deputation concerning this matter in June. However the Council and Executive chose to keep the issue away from the public until now. By closing centres of excellence, these nurseries have mulitl-cultural value aswell as bilingual teachers and internatioal connections which will be lost. By attacking are childrens education we will be creating a society that is divided. Perhaps land and its wealth is the real issue behind this. Why is there no mention of the propsal for Early Years Development Centres which is also in the pipeline? www.saveournurseries.org.uk

34

Gilbie's Boy,

17/08/2007 08:09:38

Media 1 - what's the weather like on the planet where you live?

Fact 1 - the labour group pushed through a low Council Tax rise just before the election. Is that more likely to be because (a) there was a belief that the Council Tax rise was enough to pay for the services and help reestablish the reserves, or (b) because there was an election due in three months?

Fact 2 - the Council Tax rise will produce insufficient funds to run the services, estimate at a £10m overspend in 2007-08. Therefore the council has to either cut services, or carry on with a £10m overspend which, even with no inflation, would be a CUMULATIVE £40m by the next elections.

Can you work out the answers to these questions?

GB

35

Not A Unionist or Nationalist,

Dundee 17/08/2007 08:10:10

I can't possibly comment about Edinburgh as I don't know the schools there.

I do know that here in Dundee that there has been a problem with falling school rolls - part of the reason why the council is merging some schools as part of its PPP project. The reality is that there are fewer young people than a generation or two ago - my own school which has a capacity of 900+ has just over 400 pupils on its roll. You cannot justify on any grounds having schools that are as empty as that. That being said, any decisions on closure merger must be fully accountable and involve all parts of the community.

36

CJO,

The Maghreb 17/08/2007 08:13:56

#1 - About the same size of mandate that the SNP got into "power" with!

37

Media 1,

cape town 17/08/2007 08:14:10

#38 Livion: I say future errors based on the assumption that the SNP will make mistakes, and when they do, the SNP supporters will blame Labour. Is that healthy?

Surely when the SNP make their first big mistake, they should be held accountable, but it appears that wont be the case.

38

Lesley,

Edinburgh 17/08/2007 08:17:56

I do not beleive this! Wester Hailes Education Centre is a community school. In addition to the provision of secondary education, the centre provides a wide range of Adult Education opportunities and a runs a recreational programme which is ALWAYS fully subscribed. There are gym facilities, a swimming pool with diving facilities, dance classes, martial arts classes, badminiton, junior life saving, I could go on and on.

I work there, teaching on the diving programme and it would break my heart to see it close. I am going off now to find out what I can do - this would not just be a loss to the community surrounding Wester Hailes, but to the city as a whole.

39

frank mcbride,

lusitania 17/08/2007 08:24:00

# Media1.

Obviously you are from the Centralist School of Politics. LAs should be done away with and, Central Govt. should make all decisions.

It surprises me that you should be attacking the SNP when, it is doing just as you advocate. The new Administration in Edinburgh have identified a problem and are in the process of attempting to put it right. This, BTW, in the face of opposition from all sides.

Would you rather the took a partisan approach rather than a pragmatic approach.

Perhaps, rather than blindly critise the SNP you should take a step back and wait to see what they can do at all levels of government. I would suggest that in the first 3 months, the SNP has shown that it is prepared to try to move Scotland forward, in spite of the very hostile, negative adopted by the opposition parties and their fellow travellers.

40

Oilcan,

Edinburgh 17/08/2007 08:24:43

Maybe the council will build their "small communicty leisure facility" (replacement for Meadowbank) on the grounds of Craigentinny Primary when they knock it down?

This is scandalous behaviour from the council. They want to close schools, sell the assets for housing and then where will the kids living in the new houses go to school?

Edinburgh is going to be one of the worst places to live in the very near future.

41

Justy,

Edinburgh 17/08/2007 08:24:53

Ewan Aitken has the gall to criticize the closing of schools. Do forgive me, but I believe this was the very action the previous administration under his leadership put forward.
Justy.

42

Golfie,

Edinburgh 17/08/2007 08:25:06

The one group of people that seem to have been overlooked in the announcement is the effected staff themselves. My wife has the misfortune to be working at one of these schools and the first she was aware of it was this press announcement. Equally the local council seem to be hiding behind their desire to keep parents aware of their proposals. How about letting their own staff know as well? Perhaps the EIS would like to outline how they intend to protect their members.
It also highlights the complete disconnect in education strategy to continue to radically increase the number of teacher training places being offered at the same time when schools are being shut down. Perhaps the real plan is to train teachers for Malawi?

43

jd1,

edinburgh 17/08/2007 08:44:17

Oh dear, pigeons are coming home to roost here. What a shambles the snp are proviong to be in edinburgh. Massive school closures and a complete mess of sports at Meadowbank/sighthill. Looks like they will be flushed out at the first opportunity.

vote snp - get a shambles!

44

Farky,

Edinburgh 17/08/2007 08:44:24

Shocking!

Closing schools for the sole reason of saving money is surely unacceptable. The knock on effects will be very serious I'm sure. Education should be the number one priority if we want our kids to have a decent future.

I for one would rather pay higher tax / council tax if it meant such services could be properly funded. They obviously are not at present.

45

Senga Jean,

Edinburgh 17/08/2007 08:49:54

Media 1 Labour hid the debts and squandered the money to try to win the election. They hid very necessary but unpopular actions they should have taken. What has any of this got to do with the SNP Government. When it all pans out you can have observations on how the LibDems and their junior partners on Edinburgh City Council deal with the matter. The Anti SNP bile is just that. I cannot comment on the ANC but your previous WHITE SUPREMACIST garbage tells me what you think.

46

MoragtheToerag,

Argyll 17/08/2007 08:52:11

We left Edinburgh because it's was too expensive for us to live there. And we were on an 'average' wage.

You're either poor or lucky and got a council house back in the day when they had stock, or your rich and can afford accommodation suitable for a famiy.

Otherwise, it's put up or get out. So many chose the latter option when they can.

This equals falling school rolls and school closures.

47

Not A Unionist or Nationalist,

Dundee 17/08/2007 08:53:45

#52 You cannot in any terms justify schools with severe under-capacity - my own school is struggling to offer courses to its 5th and 6th years because of the small numbers involved - larger schools have a greater scope to provide pupils with the range of course choice that they deserve.

48

Not A Unionist or Nationalist,

Dundee 17/08/2007 08:57:31

#39 & #45

I know this might sound a bit naive but if the plans were drawn up by the previous Labour administration why is the present Lib Dem/SNP administration still going ahead with them?

49

Yetholm Hibee,

Abbeyhill 17/08/2007 09:00:24

#51

Why did the edinburgh people vote for Labour at local government level when they were in power at central government !!!

Central government policies will always win over local policies.

A fairground for brown envelopes & corruption & fraud & bullying.

The blame lies with Labour!!!

50

Gilbie's Boy,

17/08/2007 09:03:19

51 - jd1 - lets see if I can explain this in terms so simple that you can understand them.

Lets say you buy a house (not a great analogy, I know, because you can get a survey done on a house before you buy, but I think it will make the point - there is no "pre-election survey" available to political parties). It looks great. You move in, then find there is dry and wet rot behind the new wallpaper and a structural defect in a supporting wall. It's clear the place has been neglected for years. All these are discovered in the first 6 months.

So you bring in tradepeople to sort these defects out. Before you know where you are, there are all their vans parked outside the house, and scaffolding up all over the place.

Then you hear two of your new neighbours talking and they say "what an idiot that new neighbour is. Look at the state of his house. He's only been there a few months and he's let the place go to ruin!" What would you think of their comments?

It looks as if the labour party made a shambles of the Meadowbank/Sighthill proposals and raised Council Tax by too low a figure to safeguard services. I have no time for the LibDems at all, but to lay the "blame" at the door of the new LibDem/SNP coalition in Edinburgh shows how ignorant some of the contributors to this forum are.

There are not enough "bums on seats" in too many schools to justify keeping them open. Some will have to close. Live with it!

GB

51

jd1,

edinburgh 17/08/2007 09:07:07

#56 How?

Its not labour shutting the schools. Open your eyes. The snp are in power at LA level and Holyrood. The schools are being shut. How on earth can you or any other blinkered nat reach the conclusion that Labour are to blame.

If the snp did not WANT the schools to shut they could vote against it at full council. Hmmmm. That will be an interesting meeting methinks.

thatcher maybe stole our milk. cardownie/salmond are stealing our schools. who's worse. Thatcher or salmond?

52

Homo Sapiens,

17/08/2007 09:09:59

Whatever happened to the pledges to reduce pupil number in each class? Whatever happened to the promises to modernise and upgrade the schools, introduce new IT equipment etc... where are all these promises and election pledges gone?

While the wasteful management, and explosion in salaries for council administrators continues a pace, the children, and their future is compromised.

53

jd1,

edinburgh 17/08/2007 09:13:37

#57

1) the snp/libs/tories/any member of the public/aufit scotland and the exec all get to see the budgets of councils every year. To suggest bthey did not know is absurd. What the snp are saying (as were using anaolgies) is that it wisnae us, it was a big boy who did it and ran away.

2) council tax increase. The snp want to freeze ctax you muppet. to say it was because labour did not increase tax ENOUGH is such a mad statement. In fact, is your name not mad jack mcmad!

54

Alf K.,

17/08/2007 09:14:52

Do we have over capacity in our schools??
If the answer is yes then some must close.
Why close schools in more affluent areas?
Answer: because the land there is more valuable for housing.
Simple economics but are councils simply running a business or a socially responsible enterprise.

55

Sedov,

Scotland 17/08/2007 09:24:19

Is this the breath of fresh air that SNP supporters are claiming?

56

Leila,

17/08/2007 09:32:26
57

Koffindodger,

Stockbridge 17/08/2007 09:33:34

Stockbridge Primary had a waiting list this year for primary 1 and most of P1 was filled with children from within the catchement which suggests that it doesn't and won't suffer from "falling school rolls".

It also had a an excellent inspectors report this year.

Why would you close this school in favour of some less successful school?

Doesn't the councils "customers" opinion mean anything?

Also the school has a small footprint for a school with very limited grounds and although Stockbridge property prices are high its value as a development would be somewhat limited as demolishing the attractive buildings to make way for higher density or high quality flats would be difficult.

58

IronicMaiden,

Meadowbank 17/08/2007 09:36:26

The number of nurseries they've prposed to shut is inaccurate. I know that Abbeyhill & Lismore Primary schools both have nurseries attached, and probably more schools. If these schools are shut the nurseries will shut too surely.
I will fight the closure of Abbeyhill Primary all the way. The school is too good to lose.

59

PaulW,

17/08/2007 09:43:22

#63 - Thanks, Leila. Much appreciated.

At least one of the schools I know would have a full roll if only CEC allowed a badly needed development in the area.

I think the administration may be receiving poor advice, as the department concerned are short-staffed. Hopefully some of the closures can be averted or schools replaced rather than closed.

Anyway, will read the detail with interest.

60

Gilbie's Boy,

17/08/2007 09:45:43

jd1 - wrong! If ignorance is bliss you must be the happiest person on earth.

Did the last Labour administration overspend it's budget, or bring it in on target? Answer - overspend.

Did they raise the Council Tax by enough to fund the 2007-08 services? No.

Did they come up with the Meadowbank/Sighthill proposals? Yes

Did they lose the election in Edinburgh in May? Yes. (A big boy certainly "did it" - but they did not "run away" - they were kicked out.)

Labour had been such a "success" for so long they now have fewer Councillors in Scotland than the SNP - a situation I don't think anyone would ever have believed possible.

As I say, I have no time for the LibDems - but they are not to BLAME for the situation. The LibDem/SNP coalition are trying to SORT it.

On your tax point, close but no cigar. In order to freeze Council Tax, the SNP government would have to increase the funding to local government in the period leading up to the new funding arrangements. Council tax makes up less than25% of the funding to local government. Of course, you are such an expert, you'd know that.

Labour got "gubbed" and will find it hard to claw their way back. The Unsions are fed up funding a party that doesn't follow the union line. They are out of power in local goverment for a generation, probably longer due to PR. I suspect they are in terminal decline in the Scottish Parliament because the economic and policy tensions between Scotland and the south east are bigger than ever - not caused by the SNP, but due to divergence in economic activity, social aspiations and attitude to world events. Alex Samond, like him or loathe him is an excellent politician and is under no obligation to toe the party line with Westminster. He will not pretend that all is well with the union when it clearly is not. He will speak up when it is in Scotland's interests to do so, not only when his point of

61

Media 1,

cape town 17/08/2007 09:49:48

#53 jean senga: Please refrain from adopting childish responses to serious matters. My comments on Africa stem from experience and indepth knowledge of AFRICAN systems and mindsets, they have nothing to do with supremacy. It is you who views it as supremacy, hence we can only assume that you harbour preconceived ideas about Africa and therefore view any ridicule of Africa as racist. In otherwords, you patronise Africans. Shame on you!

I was merely stating that the ANC blame all their failures on the past. It would be dangerous to allow the SNP to adopt the same position. I believe that the SNP are now responsible for Scotland, what happened prior to their arrival is no importance now. What matters is SNP results and that the bottom line.

62

Koffindodger,

Stockbridge 17/08/2007 09:54:34

thanks Leila 63

I copied this from the council document regarding Stockbridge:

"62% of the school roll comprises non-catchment pupils;
The number of pupils in the Stockbridge catchment is less than 40% of the
school capacity (the lowest percentage in the Authority), meaning the school
cannot be justified by its catchment population"

It would appear they want to close the school because parents make the conscious decision to send their children there in fact it appears to be the school that they MOST want to send their children to (as the fact that it had the lowest percentage of catchment children within the authority), wouldn't that mean that it is perhaps one of the very best primary schools in Edinburgh?

So why close it?

63

inthevillage,

leith 17/08/2007 09:57:40

All this talk of 'hidden debt' is nonsense - the Council's finances are public and were well known before the election.

The criticism of Ewan Aitken is also misplaced. No-one doubts that some schools will need to close. However, the previous administration had a process of consultation in place on closures, which involved parents, staff and all the political parties. So fair play to him for that.

The SNP/Lib Dem alliance have dispensed with all that consultation and come up with their own proposals without involving anyone else.

Interesting that they've done so at a time when School Boards have been abolished and the new Parent Councils have yet to be set up, thus minimising the potential for parent fightback.

Interesting too that so many of the schools earmarked for closure have the potential for conversion into expensive flats.

Meet the new boss...

64

Kids before, Trams, Politics etc.,

Edinburgh 17/08/2007 10:11:11

Fancy Mr Aitken being critical of the review. He spent all his time trying to close schools and succeded in many cases.

Viva Lismore......the fight continues.

65

Euan,

Edinburgh 17/08/2007 10:14:17

This is nothing more than an absolute disgrace.

The Council and the Executive are going to waste what will probably amount to more than £1 billion pounds on an unwanted tram line yet can't even find £10 million to keep schools, nurseries and community centeres running.

Not only this, but the comments made by councillor Ewan Aitken beggar belief.

It is quite frankly sickening that he is trying to cover Labour's back with these crude, mistake-covering quotes.

It was sheer incompetence of the ousted Labour council who got The City of Edinburgh into this mess in the first place.

66

Old Town Resident,

17/08/2007 10:22:50

The plan is to rid the city of permanent residents so it can become a playground for developers and you don`t have to answer to the tourists or transient population.
There is common good land involved, which belongs to the people of Scotland see
http://www.andywightman.com/commonweal/edinburgh.html
see Edinburgh at Risk campaigns involved and on you tube..join to make the voice of Edinburgh heard
http://www.gardyloo.org/earear.html

67

jd1,

edinburgh 17/08/2007 10:23:04

#67
what are you on about. Stick to the argument on schools and ctaz, not some deranged ramblings on the future of labour.

Anyhoo, you cannot deny that labour are NOT in power, the SNP ARE!!! Therefore, it is they, not labour, who are shutting the schools and have to accept responsibility for it.

And, how can you one the one hand argue that ctax only raises a small amount (which is true) and then complain about labour not increasing it enough, when you know any increase only raises marginal amounts BUT at the same time snp wanted a lower increase and now want a freeze.

Basically, you and the snp are all over the place. You are in power now, deal with it and stop blaming others.

68

Serious Comment,

17/08/2007 10:27:18

No.72 - I posted this ealrier, maybe you didn't see it:

"All this nonsense about a financial 'black-hole' is a complete red-herring ... there's a £10million overspend pressure on an +£800million revenue budget - just over 1%!

The new Adminsitration just need to get on and sort it out - a 1% overspend is nothing unusual.

These closures are nothing to do with these ongoing revenue pressures and more to do with the Capital costs of the education estate.

Mind you, the way it's being proposed looks pretty brutal and ill-thought out."

... come on, the supposed £10m revenue black hole has NOTHING to do with this closure programme. PLEASE don't conflate two separate arguments to make political points.

69

MoragtheToerag,

17/08/2007 10:49:43

It's a very effective plan, no. 74.

Certainly worked to clear us out.

70

Alan Bruce,

Kingswells 17/08/2007 10:56:11

Schools are closing in Edinburgh. And why is this one of the main headlines in my national newspaper?

71

Doh,

17/08/2007 11:03:45

The proposed cuts have everything to do with the £10M blackhole left by Labour and teh fact that they failed to take action in the run up to the election.

The pronouncements of the Rev. Aitken since the election have convinced me that a man of god can be an accomplished teller of of falsehoods. Presumably he prays for forgiveness every night.

These cuts and re-organisation of provision are overdue.
Dont get me wrong - I am sure they are painful and worrying for all the staff, children and parents involved. However all children will still be going to school and getting an education.

I notice that Labour and the Tories are not suggesting that all these schools should be kept open regardless of cost. Why not?

72

hammi,

edinburgh 17/08/2007 11:41:47

closing drummond, look at how much the council spent on refurbishing the school a couple of years ago just to close it talk about wasting money.

73

GM,

17/08/2007 11:42:07

@11 and 16 Media1

I actually welcome contributions like the above 2 posts... simply because they beg the question -

"who is responsible?"

Answer -
Labour - 50 years (8 devolved) in power
or
SNP - 3 months in power

I thank you again for highlighting the absolute disgraceful way that Labour have mismanaged just about everything they touched.

74

Edward,

17/08/2007 11:46:08

#25 Jams
Do you mean a link like this?
The article in the Eveing News of May 17th 2006
is about Ewan Aitken plans to close Burdiehouse Primary due to falling numbers in pupils
http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=736382006
also this one from 2005 http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=2346152005

75

sickpuppy,

embra 17/08/2007 11:50:23

25# i agree. aitken it is different when you are not in power and burying you,r head in the sand

76

Alanmar,

Vancouver 17/08/2007 11:57:56

Enough!

At Festival Fringe time, we seem to be getting one sort of 'Comedy' mixed up with another sort of 'Clowns'.

What say we rid the entire CEC of its workers and politicians immediately, and employ those TALENTED street performers at the same desks?

Or instead we could divert our council tax payments to a FUND for all those dedicated artists prepared to come to Edinburgh? They come at great expense which is often not recouped.

We must stop tolerating this absolutely SICKENING nonsense and ACT. Make your choice now.

77

Yetholm Hibee,

Abbeyhill 17/08/2007 12:13:51

#58

Labour have been in power for years in Edinburgh & this decision to close some schools started in 2004\2005 (dates are approx, I still do have the letter somewhere though) and was put on hold when Labour were in power.

This process started when Labour were in power so how can you say it is all SNP's fault & Labour are totally blameless.

Why did Labour not stop this at an earlier stage, instead of waiting till they won the next election so they could force it through.

What a pity Labour lost the election :-)

It is a shame it was not sooner !

I think you are the 'blinkered one'.

You make reference to Thatcher & Salmond.

I gather you think Blair is a Saint.

SAVE MEADOWBANK !

78

Calum Crubag,

17/08/2007 12:22:17

Looks like the new council are having to clean up Labour's mess. Especially the financial 'black hole' Labour have bequeathed us.

79

Harumph,

Harumphland 17/08/2007 12:29:05

#8 and #46
Yes, the Wester Hailes Eduction Centre (WHEC) has a "young mums" unit (well, a built in childcare facility for under 5s so that young parents can return to school after pregnancy/delivery) and yes, it has a fabulous community side to it, with all the aforementioned facilities and services. However, I lived and worked in Wester Hailes for 14 years and noticed that even the parents of the children who most parents were trying to ensure their owns kids would avoid by sending them outwith the catchment area, were choosing to send their kids elsewhere other than WHEC! In the end, as we couldn't get our child into another school we moved out of Edinburgh to avoid sending her to WHEC and I know for a fact that a number of other parents have done the same. Close the school and keep the community facilities. Even the locals don't want to send their kids there.

80

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 17/08/2007 12:37:26

Unlike some of the most ardent critics on this thread, I took the time to read the report before opening my gub.

A couple of points. This is a proposal from council officials. They were taked with making savings. The savings targets were set by the elected council on 19th Feb 2004 i.e. the last council administration. These proposals don't even meet those savings.

Clearly savings were needed because of an overall shortage of cash. Why was the budget in such a state? Also, it is possible that more of these projects could be saved through campaigns but that is unlikely now because of the expected cost overun of the tram projects. The idiots blaming the SNP for these closures were the same idiots claiming that the SNP were against the trams because they lacked vision. Now you know the truth boys and girls. I guess the idiots don´t care as soundbites are all that matters when the real issue is political careers and jobs for the boys. Cue Councillor Aitken - the man behind the savings targets...

On specifics. If a secondary school is being closed but is operating at more than 80% capacity the closure must be given consent by ministers. So, if your councillor isn´t helpful go to the education minister.

Lastly, many of these will not be developed for money, especially if they have extensive play areas or are designated millenium forest areas.

Edinburgh needs a protracted period of responible council management, it seems it is about to get that - in spite of the trams.

81

Declan,

Glasgow 17/08/2007 12:56:38

#34 - I think you've hit the nail right on the head! Add to that the extorionate house prices and you have your answer!

82

IronicMaiden,

Meadowbank 17/08/2007 12:57:02

88 re: On Specifics. Do you know what the rule is for Primary schools operating at above 80% capacity? I'd be interested to know.

83

I'm no really here,

17/08/2007 12:57:57

Media 1: What a load of crap. I agree with you (irrelevant) diatribe at the ANC in #16, but then the only comparison you actually make is that the ANC blame everyone but themselves, and the SNP blame labour. Problem with your comparison is that the ANC have been in power for over 13 years, the SNP for less than 4 months.

84

Dinah-Saur,

Embra 17/08/2007 13:04:35

If the rolls really are falling so badly - and it's a big if; our two local schools are bursting at the seams - then maybe the council/govt ought to be looking deeper into the cause. Is there really a declinging population? Doesn't look that way to me, Edinburgh seems more packed than ever. Where did the figures come from? If it is the case that schools are operating well below capacity surely there are other options, including improving the service on offer.

Presently the service is so bad that many families choose to home educate or move out of town to access better services. I know many people who have had such negative experiences of education in Edinburgh that they have done this.

In my own case:

My daughter endured seven years of bullying, but no one cared enough to help her. Not teachers, not heads, not the educ dept; even two MSPs failed to rectify the situation.

My son - has endured a year long campaign of racist abuse, violence and bullying - but because it is the wrong type of bullying (anti-white) he just has to put up with it and shut up.

The damage done to my daughter will doubtless last her a lifetime - and I will remove my son from school rather than see the same happen to him. Therefore I have no respect or sympathy for teachers striking or whinging on about wanting more money/less work (they only work 198 days a year as it is and now many of them work part time -because they can afford to!) or to hang onto their jobs while failing to provide even basic health and safety to the children in their care.

Perhaps if the new govt decided to let the people who pay the wages decide what happens - and have an input to the education budget - we might see a big improvement - good schools could stay and bad ones be shut down, regardless of what the buildings are like?

Certainly part of the 'Labour' plan for the city was to run down services to give an excuse to have public buildings - in this case the lovely old

85

Talorthane,

17/08/2007 13:07:19

The fact that a certain number of schools need to be closed seems to be generally accepted, but it is the choice of schools that is causing the outcry.

There are too few pupils to maintain the current level of schools and it's costing too much. So, it seems reasonable that a responsible council would close some of those schools.

But the claim that there is an element of "social engineering" is the bizarre argument in the middle of this, on the basis of the fact that some popular schools (or rather schools in popular areas) are being closed instead of less popular ones (or those in less popular areas).

Surely it is the responsibility of the council to ensure that any cuts are spread fairly across the area and the community.

And surely it would be much closer to "social engineering" if the schools chosen for closure were selected on the basis of where they were, rather than the needs of the city and the community as a whole.

While ignoring why there is such a financial problem and why these decisions were not taken until now, the Labour leader is correct when he says: "This is not just about numbers or exam results - it's about people. You cannot do this by the numbers. It's much more important than that."

You cannot do it be preference either.

86

,

17/08/2007 13:18:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 884279, Article id was mapped to record!
87

Thomas the Tank,

Embra 17/08/2007 13:29:23

Told you before, the money for the Grand TramCar Vanity Project is going to have to come from somewhere. The Embra FibDems, with Tory and Labour support, will end up selling their Grannies over it - watch this space.

88

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 17/08/2007 14:00:30

It's the same for primaries. There is a whole process here. For nurseries there is no obligation but the proposal argues for those obligations to be the model followed for every sector i.e. nurseries.

These proposals will go to the Education, children and families committee of the council on the 28th of this month to ask for approval to consult. Each individual proposal will have its own consultation process and be brought to the full council for a final decision on a case by case basis throughout the year. So, talk to parent organisations to contribute to the consultation or the clerk of the school boards all of whom will be consulted. Talk to the councillors and get onto your MSP in a co-ordinated way to try and save whatever school you want saved.

Check page 14 of the document itself for info on the proposal consultation:
http://cpol.edinburgh.gov.uk/getdoc_ext.asp?DocId=100415

89

Weel Kent Jambo,

West of Gala 17/08/2007 14:08:54

Thought Tynecastle High school was due to close in 2010? Hasn't Romanov just agreed to buy the ground Hearts?

This all cyclical stuff and I know of previous attempts to close at least a couple of the schools on the hit list. Then the population kicks off and where do kids go then? Are we back to portakabins in playgrounds? Maybe they could use unused tram cars instead?

90

leithman,

Edinburgh 17/08/2007 14:16:51

Some points to consider:

when the seas rise due to "global warming" half the tram tracks will be under water so we wont be able to use them. then the new houses and schools at Granton will be reclaimed by the sea cancelling out the demand need for new schools in that area. more money wasted.

Thirdly, when all the pupils from craigentinny primary are transferred to Royal High and they have built hundreds of new homes on the craigentinny site, where will they find the extra capacity then? will they have to build porta cabings at the royal high.

91

AaronL,

Hillside 17/08/2007 14:32:32

My children attend Abbeyhill Primary School which is only 5 minutes walk away. We are considered outside the catchment area. I repeat, OUTSIDE the catchment area.

How can councillors justify closing this local primary school on the grounds that there are not enough people in the area, at the same time they plan to bring in over 1500 more residents just 10 minutes walk away? This is bureaucracy gone utterly and completely mad.

Come to the public meeting tonight at Meadowbank, 7pm and ask councillors there how we can cope with such crazy losses in facilities. Are they trying to destroy Edinburgh? Have they totally lost the plot?

www.savemeadowbank.org

92

Help Ma Boab,

St Tams ya Bam 17/08/2007 14:37:42

What a nonsense article. A school is popualr mainly if its results are good. If you are closing some schools due to low numbers then you can move these teachers to the under-performing (or unpopular) schools to raise standards. The only thing that should be important is whether the facilities are up to scratch. Keep the best equipped and best built and sell of the rest. Probably what they will do in the end but you would never think it to read the above article. One of these days i am going to pick up a paper and read a balanced piece of professional journalism....perhaps being a tad optomistic there.

93

Pilrig.,

Livingston 17/08/2007 14:48:01

79 - I worked on the refurbishment of Drummond (2002) and a nice little earner - correction nice BIG earner - it was too.
heh heh heh........

94

Golfie,

Edinburgh 17/08/2007 14:57:49

To Dinah-Saur

I feel for your problems concerning your children but you do not help the situation by making factually inaccurate statements about teachers.

Teachers do not only work 198 days. My wife starts work at 7:30 each school day and probably finishes at 18:00. Comes home , deals with the family and then does another hours work. She probably averages 4 hours each weekend and spent at least 2 days a week during the Summer holidays in school preparing for the next term. On top of this our childrens off-casts are taken into school and we spend a considerable amount of our own money in WH Smith's buying resources such as pencils and paper that our local council are unwilling to finance.

The comment also about those who pay wages should decide is way of the mark. The vast majority of local authority funding comes from central gov not local rates.

Whatever the rights and wrongs, it cannot be right that everyone wants to put a political spin on something that fundamentally effects children!. Responsible adults have a duty of care to the next generation not to use them as bargaining chips!

95

Dinah-Saur,

Embra 17/08/2007 15:17:15

I'm glad to hear your wife works hard - and v glad she doesn't work part time as so many now do - but I think she is probably in a very small minority.

Sorry, not sure what you mean about the majority of local authority funding coming from central govt - given that central govt gets its funding from taxes, ie us. It's surely irrelevant what mechanism is used to fund schools if the end result is the same?

96

Dinah-Saur,

Embra 17/08/2007 15:25:20

Oh, and I got the calculation on teachers days of work per year from a (newly qualified) teacher - who did the calculation, taking out all the holidays: Christmas and New Year, February break, March/April/Easter break, summer holidays, October break, bank/public holidays and weekends. I was not knowingly making up figures for mischief merely making the point that teachers work many less days per year than people in most other jobs, yet do not lose pay for this.

97

Minime,

Edinburgh 17/08/2007 15:34:25

How can the council consider closing Abbeyhill Primary until it has made a decision on Meadowbank. If the Sports Centre is to be flattened and houses are to be built, where will all the children go to school.

98

Lesley,

Edinburgh 17/08/2007 15:51:11

Fair comment #87 Harumph! I speak only of the recreational facilities as I have no experience of the school, but is it likely that the school will close and the recreational facilities will not? And if they do close, what will be the damage to the area - hundreds of kids use the pool and attend the various out-of-school activities such as the dancing classes, gynastics, etc etc

99

Calum Crubag,

17/08/2007 16:06:02

Part of the blame lies with parents choosing to send their kids to schools outwith their own area, like Stockbridge. Same also for the disgusting private schools.

More penalties for private schools and a move towards smaller, more local schools would benefit both communities and pupils.

100

Lesley,

Edinburgh 17/08/2007 16:24:56

108 - Am sorry Calum but I could not disagree more. If I choose (as I do) to sacrifice certain things in order to pay for my childs education then it is my right to do so. It also REDUCES the burden on the local education system.

My 14 year old has attended George Watsons College since the age of 5 and has received an excellent education, which to me, is worth every penny it has cost.

101

General-Blood,

gutersloh 17/08/2007 16:50:17

They are cutting schools,the best schools and keeping open the one where the immigrants and the ethnic minorities are. what the hell is going on here

102

Sunny97,

Edinburgh 17/08/2007 17:12:03

As a teacher from one of the schools about to be closed, I really OBJECT to finding out about it from The Scotsman, before we as staff had time to be told.
What a way for parents to find out too.

I must say that I don't feel anyone considered the children in all of this exercise.

What a way to start the new academic year...

103

junk,

Edinburgh 17/08/2007 18:00:53

The children of Castlebrae will be going to Portobello High School. That is why the council are planning to build a high school to accommodate 1400 pupils

104

Madame Ecosse - Fleur d'Ecosse,

Edinburgh 17/08/2007 18:12:31

#2,

Christ. Closing Castlebrae - can you imagine all those neds, nedettes and chavs polluting Portobello now??? *Sob*, my poor alma mater. Portobello, I sympathise so much!

105

Not A Unionist or Nationalist,

Dundee 17/08/2007 18:31:29

#111 I totally agree - much that I can see merit in closing schools if they are under-capacity you have to do it with the co-operation of staff, parents and the local community - just as has happened in Dundee with the merger of some pirmaries and secondaries. To find out this way is quite honestly appalling.

106

Milly Molly Mandy,

Edinburgh 17/08/2007 18:51:17

And how will this work with the SNP's (laudable) proposal to cut primary school class sizes to 18?

Go figure...

107

A very annoyed castlebrae pupil.,

17/08/2007 19:00:42

I am sorry, but if you people would bother getting off your lazy backside and taking a look at Castlebrae, it is actually a very good school! It is not full of Neds / Chavs, infact the School full of them is Holyrood. They are constantly going over to Portobello high and fighting with them.

Castlebrae should not be shut, as the pupils are getting really good exam results and most of the people who are looking for an entry to University are getting them!

I am 13, in S3, and I find that my Education in the school has been fantastic. The staff are very helpful, and being in a smaller class definitely makes everything easier. Bullying in our school is almost non-existant. Of course like all the other schools there is quite a bit of verbal abuse, but there is VERY little Emotional / Physical bullying.

Our school is really too small for the amount of people in it, yet the council are saying we are only 41% in occupational statistics. The school really is full, and there are more students entering it.

1st years:
This year:
30 pupils per class roughly, and 4 classes.

Last year:
20 pupils per class roughly and 3 classes.

Previous year:
13 pupils per class and roughly 3 classes.

And the plans for the new school have already been made basicly. The architects have been hired and are in the process of designing it. There are also going to be several different people coming round and asking us (The pupils) what we think the new school should be like and have. It will have a public library, and possibly a public swimming pool.

Now when Castlebrae is doing so well, WHY are the council wanting it shut down? Surely that raises a few questions? And the school that we have been told we are to be moved into, Liberton High, hates us. This presents a problem with bullying when / if we are moved into the school.

And as a side note, Portobello will not be allowing our school pupils in. There is a waiting list for a

108

A very annoyed castlebrae pupil.,

17/08/2007 19:06:39

Made a mistake:

Previous year:
13 pupils per class roughly and 3 classes.

109

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 17/08/2007 19:18:07

Eh, the teachers were not consulted about this before it was published in The Scotsman because it was leaked to The Scotsman ahead of official publication. I wonder if Councillor Aitken (Labour) has anything to say on this matter?

110

Gillian C,

Corstorphine 17/08/2007 19:21:11

My son arrived home with a letter today from Carrick Knowe PS (told not to read it before he got home) advising that "as your child currently attends one of the schools that would be affected by a proposal to close Wester Hails Education Centre, with the pupils moving to Forrester High. In order to achieve this we will be considering an option to realign the catchment area for Carrick Knowe Primary with Tynecastle High rather than Forrester High". It's not just affecting the schools that they are proposing to close but also the feeder primary schools, children, and communities in general. The consultation for CKPS "is in a slightly later phase that is expected to begin early in January 2008". Starting secondary school is a big thing in an 11-year-olds life without wondering where it's going to be and parents/carers wondering if its going to be a 10 minute walk or a 1/2 hrs bus journey is just unacceptable.

Let's unite and get this nonsense stopped!

111

A very annoyed castlebrae pupil.,

17/08/2007 19:31:05

Gillian C, Well said!

I am still a member of the student council at my school. I was thinking of organising a meeting and trying to contact the other schools to see if we can unite and fight against this. It might seem silly, but it is worth a try...

112

Rational cynic,

Edinburgh 17/08/2007 19:42:02

#116 Castlebrae pupil.

I must compliment you on the high technical quality of your post - in spelling, vocabulary, sentence structure, and ability to construct an argument, you have surpassed the technical writing skills of many of the other contributors to this thread. Are you really only 13?

113

Gillian C,

17/08/2007 19:55:13

I feel so strongly about the way this is affecting my son's school - as a knock-on effect - I can understand how the others must feel that their school is actually being closed! This needs lots of voices from lots of schools and also campaign groups from each individual school to sort the council out before they get into more debt with legal fees! Castlebrae pupil keep up the pressure!

114

Woe Isme,

Edinburgh 17/08/2007 20:27:34

I don't blame the politicians - they don't know all the real causes but have to deal with the political fall-out. I definitely blame Gillian Tees and her incompetent department. The budget deficit is a complete red herring, designed to twist the debate away from the truth. Two key failures lie at Ms Tees' door: Firstly, the quality of state education in Edinburgh is so poor that the city has one of the highest percentages of privately educated children in Europe. The decision of so many parents to send children to schools like Watson's and Heriot's is nothing to do with social status - it is everything to do with quality. Quality that Tees and her department have failed to provide in the state sector. If the number of children in private education was at national levels, Edinburgh would not be facing these cuts, it would be building schools. Tees should be ashamed. Secondly, the Council's pathetic attempts at social engineering have completely back-fired. Good schools have been penalised and parents have been forced into even more desperate schemes to give their children a good state education. Can Tees explain why some state schools are over-subscribed while others lie half empty? She can, it is because she has failed to deliver a consistent level of quality. The better state schools have survived in spite of Council interference. The weaker ones are just spiralling downwards. Sadly, a cull of the incompetent officials inside the Council wouldn't save the listed schools. It is too late. Parental trust is gone. Parents will not take their children back to the private sector. Firrhill represents this tragedy in stone. It is surrounded by some of the most affluent suburbs in the city (Colinton, Craiglockhart, Greenbank, Fairmilehead, etc.) but most of the children from these areas go private. Tees should ask herself why so many parents have given up on the state, given up on her. Offering her resignation would be token but welcome gesture.

115

A very annoyed castlebrae pupil.,

17/08/2007 20:40:46

Rational cynic, yes, I am really only 13 :) I have attended CCHS for 3 years, and before that attended Newcraighall Primary (Where I live)

I shall take it as a large compliment your are doubtful of my age, so thank you! =)

Gilian C, Some more rather humourous than realistic approaches I and a friend came up with was to encourage the staff at our school to go on strike, and the pupils to group up, refuse to go to school, and march right up to Holyrood Parliament to protest =p

And I will certainly try! =)

116

Gillian C,

17/08/2007 20:52:02

Milly, Molly, Mandy - if they kept these schools open they could achieve their promise of classes of 18! It's all budgets at the end of the day rather than what's going to, in the long run, be Scotland's future - a well educated population!

117

Shamus,

Glasgow 17/08/2007 20:54:36

So its Embras turn for closures. The wee wanes of Fort Primary will survive because the council will not wish to contaminate the other schools with them. That will keep the parents of the other wanes that go to the better schools happy. A suggestion, end sectarian schools,put all the wanes together, save millions that will solve the financial problem. I wonder if the GREEN'S that supported the SNP HAVE AN OPINION ON THIS?

118

Gillian C,

17/08/2007 21:04:35

Castlebrae pupil - I am making my son's plackard as we speak - "I do not want to be forced to go to Tynecastle" (no offence to Tynecastle-it's the distance he will need to travel!). I will call your headteacher on Monday (if you want to let him/her know).

119

Kipling,

South of the border 17/08/2007 21:15:40

Once Edenborough, now Edinborough, soon to be Edimborough

120

A very annoyed castlebrae pupil.,

17/08/2007 21:46:03

I do not have any means of contact with my headteacher, but I will ask at my registration period if I could go and talk to him. :) My dad is saying we should all band together with "Education not Trams!" placards, and march up to Holyrood, heh. :p

I will try my damndest to save as many schools as possible. :) I will also try contacting several of the students from my school over the weekend, hopefully we can make a start soon. :) The time they are supposed to be making their decision by is March :)

Good luck to all involved in this!

121

Helene,

Ontario, Canada 17/08/2007 22:15:10

School closures of this magnitude require a much longer timeline. This is above all, disrespectful to the many families concerned.

122

Very Concerned Parent & Ex Drumbrae Primary Pupil.,

Edinburgh 18/08/2007 02:34:35

This has got to be stopped!
As noted above, Drumbrae opened in 1959. It has served the community well teaching traditional values and receiving many awards (not all noted above). It is situated right in the heart of what is often refereed to the new half of Clermiston and is historically, a focal point for the community. Why Drumbrae and not Fox Covert? It's not my intention to deride Fox Covert in any way, though it is right at the top of a steep hill and can't match the excellent reputation that Drumbrae has. What exactly are the council's plans for Drumbrae's well situated (very valuable, particularly to the local pupils) plot of land?

123

Very Concerned Parent & Ex Drumbrae Primary Pupil.,

Edinburgh 18/08/2007 03:05:40

If my child's school does close, what are my child's alternatives? Will we be caught up in a catchment area squabble or will we have some choice in the matter.
Surely if my child's education is going to be disrupted in this manner, catchment areas should be waved particularly when this would result in a child being removed from a school in one of Edinburgh more reasonable areas to a school in one of our more deprived & troublesome areas.
I will home educate before allowing anything like that!!!

124

Very Concerned Parent & Ex Drumbrae Primary Pupil.,

Edinburgh 18/08/2007 05:15:22

Why not Fox Covert?
Perhaps its because it is a denominational school?

See this document; http://cpol.edinburgh.gov.uk/getdoc_ext.asp?DocId=100415
Page 14 Paragraph 6.5.

Perhaps in todays hyper PC society, it might be considered an attack on Catholicism or maybe just too much like hard work for our council chaps.

I agree with a comment made earlier, please let our children learn and play together, we will all be the better for it.

Also, I would like to second #124 Gillian C's comment.
We should celebrate the falling class numbers and look forward to a higher quality of education for our children.
Closing these schools would be counter productive, and in the long run, damaging for the local economy. It seems that our council is looking quick fix and seeking to maximise their immediate gain rather than carefully considering & providing the best options & opportunities for this great city's children who will one day provide the drive for Edinburgh's businesses, shops and factories.

125

a cool dude archie,

cheshire 18/08/2007 07:03:04

i hope that the union unison and the fbu don't forget to thank the snp and the lib dems for their decisions that they have taken. after all they backed them at the elections. with their members money. as ye sow so shall you reap. but lets all blame labour for it. acda. don't blame me i voted labour. ex pat.

126

a cool dude archie,

cheshire 18/08/2007 07:12:16

the fact re 118. is it is happening. when it is told or leaked and by whom doesn't alter the fact. so that point that you make is irrelevant. live long and prosper. acda.

127

Gie's a break,

Edinburgh 18/08/2007 09:43:40

Did no one stop to think when the deficit was at 5 million, or better still 11/2 million, what actions were necessary to curb this happening?

If the Festival is so good for Edinburgh and brings in so much money, why is there such a shortfall? Is the taxpayer footing expenses for the luvvies and friends of the council to have a good time and make money?

If education is a priority, why are they closing schools first and not last?

Is there somewhere I can find out where our money has been spent? Better still, is there someone willing to answer question in person?

128

molu kikes,

basel 18/08/2007 10:18:05

vwey great stories of sadness when majority of endinburgh school have been shut down because of unknown queery .,,,,,,,,,, where does the slush fund went to ? there school maintainace funds and the school funds went ., as the current primeminster motto was firstly on education than if the moth source of education is earmarked as impending sign of collapse ,.,., uberige what is tthe boon brown do as his bold step ,..........

129

CANUCK,

18/08/2007 16:57:17

Pathetic- absolutely pathetic - education should always be the last on the list to be touched if at all -regardless of the situation. A lot of things can be cut away but not and never education, especially for the primary system. If necessary they have to be subsidised but never cut. In to days situation where almost all families both parents have to work, proximity of school and good school has become paramount.
Small council minds at work again, with no vision for the future.
I feel really sorry for all parents and children involved.

130

A very annoyed castlebrae pupil.,

18/08/2007 17:15:58

Just thought I would point out, the council are going to be wasting an approximate £600million on Trams, and knowing the council, they could end up doubling that.

I fail to see how Trams are more important than our education? Once castlebrae is closed down, there will be a lot of kids without a school to go to, not to mention Drummond High and Wester Hailes!

Jees... you know what, us kids should just take over running of the government! We would probably do a better job lol.

131

Navvy,

singapore 28/07/2009 08:06:54
Mr Aitken suggested it was "astonishingly naive" to suggest that such a major consultation could be completed in just nine months

PAthetic, 9 months is at least 3 too many. Grossly inefficient. A real world business sets targets and timescales and sticks to them.

No wonder the city tax is sky high and its services poor

 

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