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Principal cuts ties with ancient club and brands men-only membership 'sexist'

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Published Date: 10 April 2009
AN ANCIENT student society dating back to the 15th century has been told by the principal of one of Scotland's most prestigious universities that its sexist men-only membership rules are unacceptable.
Dr Louise Richardson e-mailed every student to say St Andrews University is withdrawing its official recognition of the Kate Kennedy Club.

The society is famous for a colourful procession, on 18 April this year, which attracts large crowds and is led by a male student dressed as a woman.

Dr Richardson said she hoped the event would continue as an "important tradition" and praised the group's charitable fundraising. But she added: "The university will not, however, be participating officially in the procession this year nor continuing its recognition of the Kate Kennedy Club."

She told students she believed the university could not endorse a club from which so many were excluded at birth.

She added: "The official endorsement of any club or society which excludes people because of their gender or race would be completely at odds with the values of this university, and our commitment to foster an open and inclusive international community of scholars and students in St Andrews."

The club was set up to honour the beautiful niece of Bishop Kennedy, a founder member of the university, and dates back to the 15th century.

It fell into disuse but was revived in 1926, and is most famous for its annual procession in which students dress as historical characters connected with the town such as Mary Queen of Scots, John Knox and Andrew Carnegie.

A male first-year student is selected on the morning of the event to dress as Kate.

In 2002, a petition against the club sparked a university snub of the event because of its elitist invitation-only membership.

While he was a student at St Andrews, Prince William is reported to have pointedly not sought membership of the society in disapproval.

James Shield, director of representation at St Andrews University Student Association, said: "The Kate Kennedy Club is, to many, an anachronism. There are some fantastic benefits of being a 600-year-old institution but there are also aspects that should catch up with modern society."

However, Murdo Findlay, president of the Kate Kennedy Club, said he was disappointed by the decision and vowed the procession would go on.

He said: "I do not believe changes to our constitution should be effected by any degree of external pressure."

In 2002 the then principal, Dr Brian Lang, boycotted the procession and withdrew university support in protest at its men-only membership, which he maintained was contrary to its equal opportunities policy.

Kevin Massie, a St Andrews graduate, said: "It was seen as a very exclusive club for English people from private schools, with perhaps the odd member from Fettes. It was regarded as unrepresentative of the student body."

The move comes after Dr Richardson was denied membership of the men-only centuries-old Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St Andrews – a courtesy extended to her male predecessors.


Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 09 April 2009 11:55 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

,

10/04/2009 00:03:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
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2

SW1,

10/04/2009 00:09:26
Even Secret societies are an equal opportunities roller coaster of joy( you know who you are all are;)....so for pete's sake get this rectified
3

,

10/04/2009 00:09:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
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4

Teofilio Cubillas,

10/04/2009 00:16:49
"It was seen as a very exclusive club for English people from private schools, with perhaps the odd member from Fettes. It was regarded as unrepresentative of the student body."

Does this comment refer to the Kate Kennedy Club or St Andrews University in general?
5

Los Angeles,

10/04/2009 00:20:58

Can anybody believe such a club exists in a top university in this day and age? (LA)

Erm, yes, LA. The Royal and Ancient, a mile down the road from the university. D'oh!



6

Teofilio Cubillas,

10/04/2009 00:34:41
I really couldn't give a monkey's about a load of braying, inbred Hooray Henrys having their own 'club' but am I the only one who detects a huge whiff of hypocracy here? Why is it that Women only clubs, gym times, 'development forums' etc are entirely acceptable whereas Men only clubs are an affront to the nation?
7

,

10/04/2009 00:38:16
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
8

Los Angeles,

10/04/2009 00:39:47
Principal cuts ties ... and trouser bottoms if she feels handy with the scissors.

"Another attention seeking female" Colin the Insufferable Misogynist.
9

YouCant HandleTheTruth,

St Andrews 10/04/2009 01:47:34
I await Dr Richardson's condemnation of the Lumsden Club (http://www.lumsdenclub.co.uk). Now the one and only university club who discriminate on the basis of gender. What's good for the goose...
10

,

10/04/2009 02:11:12
Comment Removed By Administrator
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11

!Ya basta!,

10/04/2009 03:06:31
She's right. Such anachronisms are an embarassment and should go.
12

Lausanne Jellies,

10/04/2009 03:46:39
#2,#7 well said these people need to be taught a lesson in common decency
13

Phillip,

10/04/2009 04:26:29
I really would like to know why it is okay for there to be "Womens-Only" clubs and organizations but not "Mens-Only?" Sounds to me like she was upset that she'll have to drive a little further for her golf game and since she couldn't vent her fury on the golf course, she transferred the anger onto the completely innocent student's club. When she speaks out for the banning on ALL gender exclusive organizations (both Mens-Only and Womens-Only) then I'll take her seriously. Until then, she needs to lighten up.
14

!Ya basta!,

10/04/2009 04:34:33
Phillip, it's do with power.

Generally speaking, whites oppress blacks and men oppress women. So oppressors (whites only or men only) meeting together perpetuates the power imbalance. When the oppressed (blacks only or women only) meet together is doesn't matter so much as they are not in a position of power and indeed maybe they need to meet to find ways to correct the power imbalance.

I think that's roughly the theory.
15

Eileen Findlay,

Gold River, California 10/04/2009 04:37:16
Well I'm a female, born and bred in Scotland, now living in America, and I could care less about joining any male fraternity group, or any female fraternity group for that matter. What is Dr Richardson's problem? Too many female hormones? Let the guys do what they want to do, and let the women go where they want to go. I could give a rat's ass about joining or being excluded from groups based on my sex. Thank you Murdo FINDLAY, let the procession proceed. Let these P.C. morons get the retribution they deserve.
16

John McVey,

Thailand 10/04/2009 05:10:45
Nothing new! All the Bush family & John Kerry are members of the secret male only satanic occult society "Skull & Bones"
17

Tatties ower the side,

Johannesburg 10/04/2009 05:28:12
#17 Thank you Eileen. A breath of fresh air at last!!!!
18

,

10/04/2009 06:00:58
Comment Removed By Administrator
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19

Sylvia,

Edzell Woods 10/04/2009 06:32:39
Hand the whiners a hankie!
I'm with you Phillip #15
20

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 10/04/2009 06:33:04
Re #16 : "Generally speaking... men oppress women. "

Of course. That's how a woman came to be principal of one of Scotland's most prestigious universities.
21

John Cameron,

St Andrews 10/04/2009 06:46:19
Since I am both a member of Kate Kennedy and the R & A let me put my head above the parapet as a target for the sore heads. A large number of members of both organisations come from a background similar to mine - a mining village in West Central Scotland (Slamannan)and Falkirk High School (a far cry from Fettes, I'm afraid). In the past, Principals of the University who were interested in golf or wanted a quiet hidey hole for lunch in this university dominated little town, were given accelerated promotion through the waiting list into the R & A. The last two (Arnott and Laing) became members; the two before that (Knox and Stevenson) had no interest and did not. The R & A has a sister club (St Rules) which offered similar facilities to Richardson. No-one who knows her will be surprised that she did not have the courtesy to even reply. KK is the main undergraduate charity raising group. Its members are also among the largest beneficiaries to the university among the alumni. When Laing "made a gesture" of refusing to support to the unique and much loved procession, many of the KK alumni made a similar "gesture" by cancelling their their annual contribution to university funds. Since Richardson hopes to raise the level of alumni giving to American levels, this counter-productive speech was not exactly a great start.
22

ccc,

10/04/2009 06:48:53
I can't go swimming on a Thursday night at my local pool. Woman only night you see.

I expect a full page story in tomorrows paper about this scandal please, complete with outraged comments from Doc Richardson.

Thanks.
23

cabrach loon,

inverness 10/04/2009 07:08:21
No 15 says it all. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with so called mens or womens clubs. But this principal at st andrews is a pain in the but and should be go rid of.
24

R Davis,

Vienna 10/04/2009 07:27:58
Probably populated by student Bankers
25

allan58,

edinburgh 10/04/2009 07:30:29
I presume that in the interests of equality there will now be a similar call to ban all "women only" institutions? No, I thought not. It appears that sexism is purely a one way thing!
26

Los Angeles,

10/04/2009 07:44:59
Since Richardson hopes to raise the level of alumni giving to American levels, this counter-productive speech was not exactly a great start. (Cameron)

You sound an oily litle oik.

To begin with you are suggesting miner's sons are encouraged to be as much of a misogynist as the sons of earls. You inform us the R&A has a sister club the principal could have joined? Is that like, if the SNP want a newspaper sympathetic to Scotland's issues they should get their own newspaper? Has your Kate Kennedy Kapers got a female only section, you know, the place for persons marked "unclean"?

And you can't get the last principal's name correct, you ignoramous. He's hardly left the university a couple of months and you keep referring to him as "Laing" instead of Lang.

Time you went back to school.

Fail.

Next candidate for life class, please.

27

Los Angeles,

10/04/2009 07:53:11
The IRA refused her membership and she has had a chip on her shoulder about select societies ever since and mocks them at every opportunity. (Rules)

Stop being silly.

28

Los Angeles,

10/04/2009 08:10:46
You don't recognise the truth? (Rules)

I recognise smear. Get a wife!

29

traprain,

10/04/2009 08:11:35
20!Ya basta!,
"#19/#17 I think your breath stinks Eileen. And its no wonder you are living in America."
Lovely to have such a wonderfully open minded,kind hearted and magnanimous comment free from any ad hominem insult or nationalistic prejudice.

30

Duncan in Edinburgh,

10/04/2009 08:21:22
#29 The R&A could not have refused her membership, since she has never applied, and given that she doesn't play golf, is fairly unlikely to.
31

Stewart_in_Oz,

Alexandra Hills 10/04/2009 08:29:11
Some of the problem appears to be that the standards are dropping. It used to be that one had to be at least semi-intelligent to get into University and the Principal was expected, de facto, to be even more so.
"O tempore, O mores" seems as relevent now as it did when written.
32

,

10/04/2009 08:32:51
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33

Athiest,

swansea 10/04/2009 08:51:56
Why is it that so many females wish to join male Clubs etc. but seldom if ever seek equal terms, giving the reason--"because I'm a woman".
You rarely if ever hear of men wishing to join female organations,if they do they keep very quiet about it.
34

The Glasgow Ranger,

Edinburgh 10/04/2009 09:00:17
Any time I visit St.Andrews during term time the majority of accents I hear are pretentious stuck-up Home Counties ones
35

Los Angeles,

10/04/2009 09:01:15
Why is it that so many females wish to join male Clubs (Athiest)

I don't want to join a male only club. I can smoke a cigar and drink whisky without paying over £3,000 a year in fees to listen to immature lewd jokes about bedroom romps.

Successful women, intelligent and talented, generally dislike getting ghettoised by feminist mentality. They wish to be seen as accomplished for what they do not for what they are - female!


36

Darien,

Panama 10/04/2009 09:04:45
St. Andrews Univ is no more than an anglicised playground for toff offspring, and a useful career move for English academics, who have now filled the place. Its about as Scottish as morris dancing and cricket.
37

Los Angeles,

10/04/2009 09:06:24
The R&A could not have refused her membership, since she has never applied, and given that she doesn't play golf, is fairly unlikely to. (Duncan Donuts)

Your comment is completely inappropriate:

The club is a social base, used for networking. The university principals are usually GIVEN membership as a matter of course. Being a mere woman she was not offered that "privilege."

Everybody can play golf. You hit a ball in the general direction of a small hole in the ground. Some do it accurately, some do it badly. The best do it for money.

It's that simple.


38

Los Angeles,

10/04/2009 09:07:52
It's about as Scottish as morris dancing and cricket. (Darien)

Sadly, there is much truth in that opinion.
39

Los Angeles,

10/04/2009 09:15:18
I repeated what the Principal herself said about the IRA. (Rules)

No you didn't.

You implied she wanted to join a violent terrorist organisation but was refused.

She said she had THOUGHT about joining the IRA in her and its early days, before they began killing innocents. Please don't play the dewey-eyed innocent.

40

Strix,

NYHAMNSLÄGE 10/04/2009 09:19:39
I bet there are many male members in Ms.Louise Richardson´s fanclub?
41

Horrible Cankers @Cyber Shebeen,

10/04/2009 09:21:14
Keep all yer daft wee men only, wimmin only clubs...just dont touch my wimmin only night at the gymn...and if you are thick enough to complain about that then I aint going to spell it out for you....if you want a male only night at the gymn go demand it...

"In 2002 the then principal, Dr Brian Lang, boycotted the procession and withdrew university support in protest at its men-only membership, which he maintained was contrary to its equal opportunities policy"

There you go folks..not just troublesome wimmin that want its membership opened up....and the reasoning..."Contrary to its equal opportunities policy"
42

Horrible Cankers @Cyber Shebeen,

10/04/2009 09:24:38
36....Used to go oot wae wan...he wanted me tae pit oan the wee apron and nowt else...then dae unmentionable things wae 'es wae hammer....telt 'im where tae git aff...awfy proud o' 'es wee briefcase 'e wis anaw....
43

Los Angeles,

10/04/2009 09:25:25
Worth repeating:

"In 2002 the then principal, Dr Brian Lang, boycotted the procession and withdrew university support in protest at its men-only membership, which he maintained was contrary to its equal opportunities policy"


44

eDUCATIon,

10/04/2009 09:31:09
Whats all this nonsense talk from Mrs Richardson?

She should be at home concentrating on the cooking cleaning and ironing!!!
45

Dippy,

10/04/2009 09:41:34
Mrs whatsit is just a bitter old woman. Why isn't she at home making her house nice for her hubby's return from work?
46

Los Angeles,

10/04/2009 09:47:12

You guys are hilarious - spending all day on a website castigating women for not working.
47

mr angry,

ayrshire 10/04/2009 09:48:24
36. Ham Shank , I assume you were black balled when you applied and made you so bitter and twisted.
48

Scimitar1,

10/04/2009 09:58:39

Who cares what the Saxon toffs do ?. St Andrew's is a poor man's Oxbridge ,and just another little bit of England in Scotland.


No 36 : LOL
49

Duncan in Edinburgh,

10/04/2009 10:09:21
#42 No, I'm afraid you are mistaken. Nobody is "given" membership. Some past Principals applied and had their applications fast-tracked as a privilege of their position. Others who didn't apply didn't become members.

At the moment the current principal has not applied. If she wanted to cause a stushie she could do so, and the R&A would have to actually address the situation; as it is, they can happily claim that no woman has ever applied for membership.
50

eDUCATIon,

10/04/2009 10:14:40
51

I was being serious......

Anyway, Im off to work.....my missus will better have my dinner on the table and a nice cold beer when i get in or theres going to be trouble!
51

Horrible Cankers @Cyber Shebeen,

10/04/2009 10:16:38
51...Just goes to prove that they can type with one hand...par for the course here...laptop misogynists that shriek whinge and wail whenever articles re women come up...probably sad little rejected individuals with the usual chip on shoulder and not much going for them...easy to spot...they use different id's to troll...agreeing with themselves and echoing other posts....sad really but there you go....some men cannot deal with their own insignificance....it aint a crime you know...just accept it and get on with it....tch...
52

Horrible Cankers @Cyber Shebeen,

10/04/2009 10:19:52
55...Heh heh...aye..your "Missus will" eh?...forgot the capital letter for "Will" sunshine ..."Off to work"...aye right...get back in that gimp box and zip it....the cold beer enemas are on the gimp!
53

Alistair Macintosh,

10/04/2009 10:22:52
#43 St Andrews University in general "It's about as Scottish as morris dancing and cricket. (Darien)"
54

Horrible Cankers @Cyber Shebeen,

10/04/2009 10:23:40
Anyway which wan o' they stoaters in that photie up there are supposed to be the delectable Kate Kennedy?..is it the wee fella in the Klu Klux outfit or the other yin campin it up as some kind o' naughty red bishop?...boys eh?..they do like to pit oan a frock...
55

Duncan in Edinburgh,

10/04/2009 10:25:58
#58 Did you know that there are more cricket clubs per head in Scotland than there are in England?
56

KWC,

Edinburgh 10/04/2009 10:32:45
A few miles further to the West is the Lundin Ladies Golf Club. I -- a man -- have no objection to this and actually think that it is a set-up that will probably keep interest and participation in the sport high among women. My club has many women, all very welcome, but I see nothing wrong with men or women only clubs, as examples of 'exclusivity'. I respect the work of the WI too. Why should I care about an 'exclusive' club like the KK Club when all the interest I might have in it is to avoid eve meeting a member. There is no reason, or desire, to have all clubs open to everyone.

I don't expect the International Sorority to be opening its door to me. Good luck to them I say.

By the way I'd never heard of the Kate Kennedy club and if this stupid Principal had not seen fit to highlight them, I never would have.
57

Dippy,

10/04/2009 10:38:26
Sheila's Wheels, Diamond...

Don't hear any complaints from the rabid feminists.
58

Horrible Cankers @Cyber Shebeen,

10/04/2009 10:53:24
Goat thum sussed by the way!!..."Kate Kennedy Club"...whits the initials eh?..eh?..."KKC"..or "Klu Klux Clan" (Scottish version)...an him wae they wee pokey hit jist pits the tin lid oan it...time they wir shut doon by the way...gawd knows whit thir gettin up tae behind closed doors...

62...Sheila's Wheels..mate...covers men as well...:D
59

james 1st,

hamilton nz 10/04/2009 10:55:18
women have their own clubs too so leave the poor guys alone. the university principal should be told to go away i would be willing to bet that she has been to a meeting at some time where men were excluded
60

,

10/04/2009 10:57:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
61

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 10/04/2009 11:01:36
Men get in touch with their feminine side by dressing as women and raise money for charity. And it's branded as sexist.

Hmm, what a crazy world we live in!
62

Duncan in Edinburgh,

10/04/2009 11:09:10
#62 FYI, Sheila's Wheels and Diamond are quite prepared to sell insurance to men as well. They are just brands owned by Esure and Admiral respectively, and you get exactly the same quotes and insurance elements going directly to their main brands. It's just a method of marketing the lower premiums that all insurers offer women drivers, because women's claims tend to be less expensive than men's.
63

Media at One,

10/04/2009 11:10:00
The world is being driven to the abyss by people like Dr Richardson. How dare she challenge the ideals of the ancient society? "She told students she believed the university could not endorse a club from which so many were excluded at birth"
Where does her primitive thinking end? Are we to ban all boys schools on the basis that girls are excluded at birth? Should we fine every restaurant in the country for having seperate ladies and gentleman toilets?
It appears that the real problem is people like Richardson and their lack of respect. If I as a member of society build an office block and call it "The All Gentleman's Country Club" nobody, but nobody should be able to challenge me or the members. Likewise, if a woman decides to open a ladies bar or a ladies club, then men must accept that they are excluded, end of story.
This world is full of people like Richardson and their nonsensical approach to seperate societies is pathetic. They need to grow up and show some respect, it is time she apologised to the society.
64

Proghead,

Embra 10/04/2009 11:17:02
Girls have been allowed into the Scouts since 1991. Do boys get to join the Guides ? Home Secretary gets rumbled and after every other excuse fails chants the old ' Is it coz I is a woman ? ' feminist mantra. Women only swimming nights, golf clubs etc. To start bellyaching about a Uni club most of the population couldn't really care about suggests to me she's not got her way and has reached for the poor liitle female button. Fun fun
65

Geraldine Firequeen,

Pits of Nelson 10/04/2009 11:18:46
As far as I'm concerned, and I go for equality in everything, this is a historical society, and should be left entirely as it is. There are plenty of other things to join, it smacks of the 'White Al Jolson' fiasco. Leave history alone, this is one area where you should forget political correctness. (I just listened to a rendering of 'Alice' on Radio 7, where they were heard whacking the baby - unpleasant, but historically correct for the literature.) Leave well alone, the guy looks lovely, and as you say, they are doing a great deal for charity. Who really cares? Not me
66

Duncan in Edinburgh,

10/04/2009 11:22:33
The epitome of internet debate is a large group of people setting out in great detail why they don't care.
67

Proghead,

Embra 10/04/2009 11:23:35
#71 Good one

As Frank Zappa once said " Ultimately, who gives a f*** anyway ? "
68

Eliza,

St Andrews 10/04/2009 11:35:15
As a female student at St Andrews I personally have no issue with the male-only club. There is a female equivalent to Kate Kennedy in the form of the Lumsden Club, the membership of which is only available to women.

I think it is sad that such an ancient institution as the Kate Kennedy Club should have support for it withdrawn especially considering the huge imput it has in university life but I would also like to know if the Principal, removing her support for Kate Kennedy because of its sexism, is planning to do the same for the Lumsden Club with, I suppose, its equally sexist female-only membership.

Surely it would be better for both clubs to be allowed to continued to exist as between them they provide an equal representation of the students at university. They form an important part of university life and tradition and should be allowed to continue much as they are. This move smacks of political correctness gone too far. Myself, I will be there on Saturday 18th supporting the club.
69

Helen,

10/04/2009 11:38:32
There are an awful lot of male chauvinists commenting today. My issue is not with gender on this one...if a bunch of male toffs want to meet up and bore each other rigid with their hunting, shooting, fishing and generally crass non-pc rubbish that's up to them. My issue is with elitism. I would abolish private education tomorrow if I could, as it produces a bunch of numpties with attitude coming put of their ears, who look down on everyone else, snigger at regional accents and think they have a divine right to get on in the world.
I'd also abolish private medicine, the monarchy and the House of Lords and create an egalitarian society where people get on because they work hard not because they were born into money or privilege.
70

Darien,

Panama 10/04/2009 11:39:06
#60 Duncan: "Did you know that there are more cricket clubs per head in Scotland than there are in England?"

Did you know that Scotland's exports per head are twice the level of Englandshire. And that Scotland has 90+% of UK oil, 70% UK gas, or 80% of UK fish, or 100% of UK whisky (the UK's no.1 food&drink export), or 75% of UK forestry, or 60% of UK quarry rock, or.......
71

TartanDave,

Kawerau 10/04/2009 11:43:22
So, would she have the same sort of attitude -

"She told students she believed the university could not endorse a club from which so many were excluded at birth" -

towards the monarchy, from which so many of us have been excluded at birth (short of a revolution, of course)?
72

Proghead,

Embra 10/04/2009 11:45:19
#74 Helen

Does Dr Richardson's attitude make her a female chauvinist, or do they not exist ? Is sexism purely a male trait ?
73

Duncan in Edinburgh,

10/04/2009 11:56:55
#75 Not sure where Englandshire is, but I'm certainly proud of the major contributions Scotland makes to the UK economy. It's notoriously difficult to put accurate figures on the economic output of Scotland in comparison to the rest of the UK though, and from my point of view also rather pointless, since we are all in one economy, inextricably linked and mutually dependent.
74

Los Angeles,

10/04/2009 11:59:54
The epitome of internet debate is a large group of people setting out in great detail why they don't care. (Duncan Donuts)

If only that were so.
75

Los Angeles,

10/04/2009 12:01:23
It's notoriously difficult to put accurate figures on the economic output of Scotland in comparison to the rest of the UK though, (Duncan Donuts)

I wonder why?

we are all in one economy, inextricably linked and mutually dependent. (Duncan Donuts)

Talk about living in a dream state. Sheesh.



76

Horrible Cankers @Cyber Shebeen,

10/04/2009 12:04:41
69...Many women are not comfortable around men in the gymn and swimming environment...some for cultural and religious reasons cannot mix with men at all...but you will be aware of that...others may have been sexually abused or assaulted...raped even...not a rare occurence in our world...there was a demand and it was met...now if men wish to have men only nights at their council run gymn then let them go demand it..Women only nights give women safe space to relax and get fit in peace...without feeling threatened or objectified...
77

Tartan Viking,

10/04/2009 12:05:04
#73 Eliza,

Interesting comments but I think we all know the answer to your question "... is planning to do the same for the Lumsden Club with, I suppose, its equally sexist female-only membership.". No chance.

We are living in a ridiculous world now where male-only establishments are rooted out and forced to become open to women or else - whilst hundreds and hundreds of female only clubs and associations are perfectly acceptabe and completely off the radar. In forcing changes to men-only establishments, whilst ignoring the female equivalent is the worst form of sexist in existence.To despise one yet encourage the other is a dangerous policy that will end up with deep bitterness.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with male-only nd a female only organisations for goodness sake.

#74 Helen. I accept the toff part of your comments, but this is really about gender. People who call men male chauvinists simply for pointing out the unfairness of this are guilty of being chauvinists themselves.
78

Proghead,

Embra 10/04/2009 12:09:09
#81

I accept your point and you are correct. What I object to is the 'feminism' of everything as a weapon to use against men, who as we know are all evil.
79

Los Angeles,

10/04/2009 12:14:26

People who call men male chauvinists simply for pointing out the unfairness of this are guilty of being chauvinists themselves. (Viking)

Nicely symmetrical but not realistic.

I think most women hold at least one vivid memory of male aggression or betrayal, or both, which teaches them to distrust us.

80

Tartan Viking,

10/04/2009 12:18:05
#83 Got it in one. All men are evil. It's the Harriet Harwoman message. Woman = good. Man = evil

Pathetic.
81

Proghead,

Embra 10/04/2009 12:18:30
#84

Yes, historically speaking, men have been aggressive towards women. It's this current blaming of all men for the woes of womankind over the centuries that's what makes modern men the oppressed rather than the oppressor. Lots of men are still sh**s, for sure, but not all of us.
82

Duncan in Edinburgh,

10/04/2009 12:19:54
#85 Oh poor you.
83

Tartan Viking,

10/04/2009 12:20:30
#84. Excuse me??

What has male aggression got to do with men having the right to have their own clubs/association etc, just like women have??

This is about men being given the same rights as women. Where does aggreession feature in this?
84

Tartan Viking,

10/04/2009 12:21:33
#87. Ditto. You are getting sucked into the illusion mate.
85

Waitamin,

NE Fife 10/04/2009 12:23:06
I don't get the fuss. Surely Dr Richardson is just continuing the same stance as the previous Principal?
86

Duncan in Edinburgh,

10/04/2009 12:26:17
#88 I don't think anyone is disputing the right of men to have their own clubs.

As a rather clumsy comparison, should Combat 18 be allowed to have a group in St Andrews? Of course - it's their right to assemble, for peaceful purposes. Should that group be endorsed by the University? I should say not.

Nobody is disbanding the KKC. But a publicly funded organisation is distancing itself from it. It's surely the right of the university to choose to do that?
87

Each 40g serving contains 214 calories,

10/04/2009 12:27:47
What happend to these you men's human rights?

Do they have the right to freedom of assembly? Like the Black and Asian police officer's association who assemble beased on race. Like the Women's Institute who assemble based on their gender.

If these young men weren't white, British males would we deny them the right to freedom of assembly?
88

Duncan in Edinburgh,

10/04/2009 12:32:21
#92 Who is denying them the right to assembly? Nobody!

Just because the University is choosing to distance itself from the group does not mean the group is being disbanded, or stopped from doing anything it wants to.
89

joppie joppie,

Aberdeen 10/04/2009 12:34:47
The last paragraph says it all.
Some people are obviously so insecure in their lives that the thought of a men/women/children/dogs/cats..... only club sends them into fits of indignation.

Who bloody cares!!!!!!
90

McMillar,

Fife 10/04/2009 12:35:28
The KKC put on an excellent event and should be congratulated for the good work. As a local golfer I do find these debates very entertaining. I didn’t study in St Andrews but do see students around town all the time and the Kate Kennedy Club is very well known. I view it simply as a private student organisation with an interesting heritage and rationale. Fair play to them and if the alumni are supporting charitable causes then even better. The golf comments here are way off the mark and I can tell this is complete non issue locally. Better to focus on the Masters this week and hope we have a European winner.
91

Los Angeles,

10/04/2009 12:35:59
What has male aggression got to do with men having the right to have their own clubs/association etc, just like women have?? This is about men being given the same rights as women. Where does aggreession feature in this? (Viking)

I think you might be displaying some right now.

LoL

Look, it's a simple matter. The principal of St Andrew's University got snubbed by the great R & A. Had it been a man it might have been given a rational explantion, such as something he wrote years ago, past prison sentence, and so on, and so forth. In this case it came about only because she is a woman.

Some men, like me, are embarrassed by that, some are angry the R&A is criticised. But to blame the woman is to make her a double victim.

In other words they are saying, she asked for it.



92

Los Angeles,

10/04/2009 12:37:45
The KKC put on an excellent event and should be congratulated for the good work. (McMillar)

Neither male or female principals agree with you. The times they are a-changing.

93

Green,

10/04/2009 12:43:52
Excellent news!
94

Duncan in Edinburgh,

10/04/2009 12:45:21
#96 "The principal of St Andrew's University got snubbed by the great R & A."

No matter how many times you say this, it won't make it true.

The issue was an Alex Salmond invention. No application has been made, and no refusal encountered. It is not just inaccurate to say she was snubbed - it is deliberately provocative. It's simply not true.

If she wanted to cause a problem, she could apply to the R&A and then they would have to give her an answer. But since she isn't a golfer, there would be no reason for her to do so.
95

Astrotrain,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 12:54:04
Since this University is only interested in teaching English private school pupils and foreign students, why should the Scottish taxpayer continue to fund it?
96

ScienceGeek,

Edinburgh 10/04/2009 13:01:14
Would there have been this much fuss if a male Principal of St.Andrews University had 'withdrawn recognition' of the KK society for the same reasons? Would as many people have commented on this story?
97

Observer,,

Glasgow 10/04/2009 13:03:19
The sad thing is, that most people who defend elitism are rarely amongst the elite. It's a form of forelock tugging masochism which I am glad to say I am a stranger to.
98

Los Angeles,

10/04/2009 13:19:53
No application has been made, and no refusal encountered. (Duncan Donuts)

No matter how you twist it, it won't approach reality.

The R&A offers it automatically to each new principal. You don't apply. You wait and hearing nothing enquire - or your secretary does - asking what has happened to the respect normally offered to the university's principal.

Back comes the answer ... sorry, the club does not invite women to participate.

You can play golf on the course, even be a caddy, but regretfully, full membership is prohibited if you have mammary glands and a uterus.

The university students club is no better.

And which century are we living in?
99

Duncan in Edinburgh,

10/04/2009 13:30:33
#103 Your "reality" is not shared by anyone else. This appears to be a blessing for the rest of us.
100

Los Angeles,

10/04/2009 13:45:52

Your "reality" is not shared by anyone else. (Duncan Donuts)

That will include close friendship with the last principal. I don't blame incaution: reading snap views on websites causes a kind of literary snow blindness; you soon miss informed opinion and stumble into a crevass of your own making.

LoL

101

Scunner,

Aberdeen 10/04/2009 13:49:17
The day will soon be upon us when men can join the WRVS!!
102

McMillar,

Fife 10/04/2009 13:55:02
103 - LA. You're clearly on a mission here to stop these students having fun unless it complies with ‘policy’! Sounds like a real drag and I think you’ll find there are bigger issues to address in education. If these organisations are to change then it will be because the members feel that’s the right way to go and decide for themselves. Come along and join the huge crowds in St Andrews as this event is freely open to the public and very well supported.
103

lord nelson,

South Carolina 10/04/2009 13:55:15
15 Phillip & 103 have it right, you don't apply. I don't see anyone applying for queen either, some royalty can't even get into their own clique because of religion. If she wants to play at the Open Championship the R&A has Open qualifying all over the world to give anyone the chance to play the greatest game in history. This is not for everyone.
104

Los Angeles,

10/04/2009 13:57:51

Sounds like a real drag (McMillar)

They are the ones in drag, not me!

LoL
105

eDUCATIon,

10/04/2009 13:59:14
Hey, I think Ive been misunderstood.

Im right into the Womens Movement.......its a lot better than you just lying there while we are on top.
106

Darien,

Panama 10/04/2009 14:07:39
#78 Duncan:

"Not sure where Englandshire is,"

A: Its mostly south of the border.

"but I'm certainly proud of the major contributions Scotland makes to the UK economy."

A: For why? Scots resources would be far better applied for the benefit of Scotland, rather than wasted on a bust post-imperial nation state nobody else likes.

"we are all in one economy, inextricably linked and mutually dependent."

A: The EU (and the global market) is our economy now, not the oddly named UKofGB&NI. But aside from that, Scots should never depend on perfidious albion as its ruler, for like all colonies, internal or otherwise, they will always end up being sh*ft*d, as is the case today.

Have a good look around you - do you really see any advantages for Scotland as a result of London rule and its sad deluded imperialist posturing?

Compare Scotland today with that other oil rich medium-sized nordic nation across the North Sea. Tell us all the benefits of this great union, and relate it then to our condition compared to that of our nordic cousins, who actually have fewer natural resources than Scotland. We are a helluva lot worse off, and going nowhere but down, more especially now that the great City of London and the majority of the Englandshire economy has been found out to be nothing more than a pack of cards.
107

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

10/04/2009 14:17:46
More politically correct drivel. This halfwit is devaluing the currency of my St. Andrews degree.
108

Los Angeles,

10/04/2009 14:22:31
This halfwit is devaluing the currency of my St. Andrews degree. (Poo)

You've done very well your self.
109

Duncan in Edinburgh,

10/04/2009 14:45:36
#111 "Scots resources would be far better applied for the benefit of Scotland, rather than wasted on a bust post-imperial nation state nobody else likes."

Oh blah blah blah. First off, they are being applied for the benefit of Scotland. Second, the UK is not bust. Third, YOU might not like the UK, but that doesn't mean that nobody does.

"Scots should never depend on perfidious albion as its ruler"

What century are you living in, exactly? You really are a classic Braveheart Nat. We are not ruled by an evil tyrant, we live in a democracy.

"Compare Scotland today with that other oil rich medium-sized nordic nation across the North Sea"

Oh Christ it's another Norway comparison. I suppose you can't point to Ireland or Iceland any more, you've got to have one. It strikes me that you should consider moving there, if they'll have you - and maybe it'll be 2009 when you arrive, despite it apparently being the 16th century where you currently live.
110

Media at One,

10/04/2009 15:11:49
Think of the black music awards and then imagine the white music awards. You know the latter would be impossible.
Go to google and type in first for woman. It's an insurance company. Imagine a first for men? You know the latter would be impossible.
Take the PGA, Tiger Woods is number 1 in the world and the tour he belongs to is for men. Can you imagine one of the men in the PGA asking for the right to play in the LPGA? No, of course not, but there have been women who want to become part of the PGA. There are those who play victim and those who just get on with it and society appears to pander to the rights of the moaning victim.
111

Jacqueline Hyde ,

On the shelf 10/04/2009 15:23:01
I don't see anything particularly objectionable about single-gender clubs but I believe Dr Richardson is perfectly entitled to boycott their activities if she believes it is right to to do so. As principal of the university, I even think it is quite acceptable that she withdraws university recognition and support from such clubs (assuming she has the legitimate authority to do so).

However, it surely going too far when she emails every student to try to foist her personal PC views upon them. These are not children, they are adults who have already developed their own beliefs.

Male-only or female-only clubs only exist because there is a difference between genders - if there wasn't, none of us would be here! As long as they do not disadvantage the opposite sex in terms of life-opportunity or life-fulfilment, they do no harm.
112

,

10/04/2009 15:23:57
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
113

Media at One,

10/04/2009 15:33:51
Jacqueline

As long as they do not disadvantage a member of the opposite sex?
Would you say that the mens PGA which excludes women, places women at a disadvantage? After all, the money in the mans game is far greater than that in the womens game.
114

Los Angeles,

10/04/2009 15:38:40

I look forward to the day the first seriously gay female student demands membership on the grounds she always wears the trousers, and has the genes to prove it!



115

Los Angeles,

10/04/2009 15:46:11

It surely going too far when she emails every student to try to foist her personal PC views upon them. (Hyde and Seek)

Whoa! Whoa!

The club holds its parade and collects charity donations under the aegis of the university. She has every right to kick it up the backside. Secondly, she is reminding them they are attending a seat of ...

LEARNING!

The university exists to allow each and all to mature and develop to full potential, it encourages students to throw off fear and convention, to question the status quo, to seek wisdom and understanding, to be open-minded, fair, and just to all, as they would have done to themselves.

The university's charter expects her to uphold its basic constitution and ethics.
116

Media at One,

10/04/2009 15:48:28
Los Angelis

She, the Principal is out of order. End of story!
117

Los Angeles,

10/04/2009 15:59:24
She, the Principal is out of order. End of story! (Media)

Another blogger with no standards and even less commonsense hits the bandwidth.

LoL


118

Media at One,

10/04/2009 16:09:22
Los Angeles #123

You may speak about standards, but you lack them.
The Principal like you and others with the same sense of disrespect are quick to attack the likes of the Kate Kennedy Club, yet say nothing of the Lumsden Club.
Rational thought appears to be lost on people such as you. But that I can accept, you are not equipped with the same level of intelligence as the principal. She on the other hand has no excuse and must now surely withdraw her support for the all female Lumsden Club.
119

Los Angeles,

10/04/2009 16:12:36

Lumsden Club. (Media)

One club is enough, although had I one now I'd happily use it to blooter your temper.


120

Darien,

Panama 10/04/2009 16:24:05
#115 Duncan:

Ok, for some quaint reason you think the very oddly named 'country' known as UKofGB&NI is just dandy as it is.

Next you'll be telling everyone you are British AND Scottish.

That would be - British (national) and Scottish (what exactly?)
121

Darien,

Panama 10/04/2009 16:28:54
#115 Duncan:

And another thing, the simple reason millions of Scots with backbone, professionals and those with entrepreneurial spirit, have left Scotland in the past is largely due to British Nationalist egits like you who keep on voting to be sha*tedby a foreign power. And you are right, I probably will join them if Scots turkeys like you keep on voting for Christmas.
122

Tartan Viking,

10/04/2009 16:39:25
#119.Media at One

The money in the mens' game is far more because of a lot of reasons, probably most of all because it attracts more spectators and better sponsorship because it is a higher standard.

However, would you say that the Wimbledon Tennis tournament, which pays the same prize money for women and men despite men having to play five sets to womens' three, places men at a disadvantage?

If not why?
123

Duncan in Edinburgh,

10/04/2009 16:43:11
#126 I have no idea what you're asking me. Perhaps it is a distinction that is important in your head; it isn't registering in mine.

#127 You really are living in another century if you think we are under occupation. Seriously, get a grip. Or emigrate if it makes you feel better; frankly what this country needs right now is people ready to buckle down and do some hard work, not those who want to spend time and money breaking apart what we have built together.
124

Ham Mei Si,

Hong Kong 10/04/2009 17:13:57
What about that band of poofters I mentioned, can a lassie jine them an' play snakes & ladders?
125

Darien,

Panama 10/04/2009 17:29:45
#129:"I have no idea what you're asking me."

I thought as much. All that means is that you are totally unable to distinguish between Britain and Scotland, or British and Scottish as an identity.

"frankly what this country needs right now...."

What 'country' might that be? Britain? Scotland? Britain and Scotland? (the latter would be 2 countries, no?) Which brings us back to the question I asked but you seem unable to answer, namely, that unionists/BritNats like you generally describe yourselves as - British and Scottish. So you are therefore a British (national) and Scottish (what exactly?).

What Scotland needs is independence, full access to her oil revenues and other resources, and international recognition as a nation (Scotland, or any nation, is not a nation without recognition by other nations). The alternative is long-term economic and social misery, continued non-nation status (i.e. subjugation, Scotland being no more than a region within a nation), and forever being part blamed for all the misery perfidious albion subjects on other nations.

All it needs is some backbone to govern yourself. You really don't have to depend on others to govern you. You don't seem to be up to speed on the 'numerical preponderance of English MP's' issue - i.e. Scotland is not governed by Scottish MP's as they can always be outvoted by English MP's, by 10-1 or more.
126

Horrible Cankers @Cyber Shebeen,

10/04/2009 17:38:39
110...Dis the sheep dip no sting a fair bit whin yer giein Dolly the wife wan?...you've complained aboot this afore on the forum sweetheart...sorry that your auld dear jist lies there but hey lad...dis that no tell YOU somethin...might need tae refine yer technique a wee bit there farmer Giles.....heh heh heh.....try sweetenin 'er up wae some Baaaaaah humbugs...that might dae the trick..
127

Duncan in Edinburgh,

10/04/2009 17:39:13
#131 I honestly still have no idea what your fill-in-the-blank question is about. Am I British? Yes. Am I Scottish? Yes. Does my nationality on my passport say "British"? Yes. Am I officially a subject of the British Crown? Yes. Am I an Edinburgher? Yes. Am I a Southsider? Yes.

Do I have difficulty being all of those things at once, and voting for different people to represent me at different levels of government and the EU? No.

Do you? Seriously?
128

Keith Lagden,

10/04/2009 17:51:17
Who really cares?
129

Media at One,

10/04/2009 17:52:09
I see the thread has now become a chip on the shoulder Nationalist vs Broader Minded person debate.
*yawn*

Tartan Viking - You raise a good point, the men play the best of 5 sets, the women play the best of 3 sets, so in theory the two salaries should not be the same. But I would imagine that the salaries are based on audience. The ladies game is popular, perhaps more popular than the mens game, so maybe that is why the salaries are equal, but I am only guessing. Thing is, no women tennis player wants to play mens tennis because their own game is popular, the money is just as good and the level of play is tremendous. In golf and football this is not the case, which is why women golfers want the chance to pit their skills against the men and why some female football players will soon be asking why they cant play in the Premiership.
130

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 10/04/2009 18:13:54
The club I belong to is open to all. I prefer mixed company anyway and do not have a problem with a women being my boss. Best person for the job and all that.

However there no women at the club I belong to - The ******** ****** Bachelors' Club as to pass the initiation ceremony one has to stand and peeeeeeeeeeeeeeee into a pickle jar from 10 paces.

Fair enough?

131

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 10/04/2009 18:30:28
138, ColB, yes. Ever seen a prosthetic male member?
132

Duncan in Edinburgh,

10/04/2009 18:39:03
#136 Did you think I wasn't aware that a cricket bat is called a cricket bat, or were you simply saying that stating that fact is evidence of a broad mind?

You'll appreciate that a cricket club remains a cricket club, no doubt.
133

Dougie Welsh,

Halifax 10/04/2009 18:46:10
I think it is interesting that it is a news item when someone refuses to join a club they have not been asked to join.

I think it is interesting how many people who have never attended a meeting of ANY "secret society" have such detailed and intimate knowledge of what happens and does not happen at the meetings of said "secret societies".

I think it's interesting that people who know so little always have so much to say.

I think it's interesting that a nation that once was held up to all of Christendom as an example is now just a home for magpies and crows.
134

,

10/04/2009 19:15:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
135

T M,

LA, USA 10/04/2009 19:22:37

Dr. Richardson's email address is listed on St Andrews University website under Office of the Principal...I am sure she has already received many emails demanding the University withdraw it's official recognition of all female only groups/clubs...
136

Duncan in Edinburgh,

10/04/2009 19:39:44
#143 Demanding? On what grounds can you or anyone else "demand"? Try asking politely.
137

Ham Mei Si,

Hong Kong 10/04/2009 19:42:32
You lot should jine the masons....now that band is full o' wummen!
138

Darien,

Panama 10/04/2009 20:00:12
#135 Media: "I see the thread has now become a chip on the shoulder Nationalist vs Broader Minded person debate"

Actually, if you believe in the British nation, or in any nation, that makes you a nationalist too. You may prefer to call yourself a unionist, softer tone and all that, but its nationalism all the same.

The quite different essential aspect of British Nationalism, of course, is that it is dependent on the continued suppression of Scottish (and English) national identities.
139

Jock Tamson,

Dear Lord 10/04/2009 20:02:18
Forgive Duncan in Edinburgh. He know not what he is a hairsplitting apologist for.
140

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 10/04/2009 20:06:23
Don't waste your time, Darien@146. These guys are into English based parochialism.

And they think it's the big wide world.
141

Duncan in Edinburgh,

10/04/2009 20:08:37
#146 Actually, that's a crock. Given that you espouse Scottish nationalism so fervently, you would do well to look up the word nationalist. Then again, what with you living several centuries ago in a time when feudal kings ruled the land, perhaps you haven't got access to a dictionary.
142

My name was taken,

san francisco 10/04/2009 20:09:15
silly, silly, silly. I'm excluded from two yoga classes due to my gender, one is prenatal, the other is mommy and me. perhaps I should howl and withdraw support from my yoga studio for this outrage.

I really wish people would get over this nonsense, any group can and should be able to form and exclude anyone. I know I'm a terminal libertarian, but really, people group up according to their own criteria, not some PHD who thinks they are being progressive while really showing their own liberal political biases.
143

Duncan in Edinburgh,

10/04/2009 20:09:53
#147 Nice. Tell me Jock, what century are you living in? Are you ruled over by the iron fist of an English king?
144

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 10/04/2009 20:14:09
21st, Duncan@151.

I'm ruled over by the ghost of a Norman King and all who hallow the power structure thereof.
145

T M,

LA, USA 10/04/2009 20:16:55
#147

LOL!!!
146

Duncan in Edinburgh,

10/04/2009 20:28:36
#152 Poor you. That's a long time to carry a chip on your shoulder. Fascinating that you pick the Normans rather than the Tudors, but pathetic all the same.
147

Darien,

Panama 10/04/2009 20:30:15
148 Jock: Thank you for the advice, much appreciated.

The unionist magic formula:

[Scotland + England = Britain = synergy !

Sounds great, in theory. I suppose there is some logic in there, somewhere, maybe, perhaps, possibly, just might be. Working together and all that (like Bob the Builder?).

Stronger together (Gordon's catchphrase) - us with the oil, and whisky, and fish etc, them with the....er.... Financial centre of the world (aye, like BoS and Halifax maybe?), and their oh so solid functional multicultural 'society', and import-dependent bust economy.

Time for Scotland to exit methinks. New formula required:

[Independent Scotland = a better future for Scotland]
148

Media at One,

10/04/2009 20:34:36
Darien

I suggest you do some reading about nationalism. Maybe then, you and some others will understand yourself. But let's move on - Scottish Independence is not that important.

Do you think the female principal acted wrongly?
149

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 10/04/2009 20:35:43
Duncan@154. I have no chip on my shoulder - that is spin for any Scot with smeddum.

The Twyddrs are an irrelevance as every dynasty has to obey the Norman code within the modern restraints.

150

Media at One,

10/04/2009 20:52:41
I went to visit Scotland the other day, said the man from the East. What did you find master, asked the intrigued learner?
Did you see the deprevation that the local nationalists speak of? Did you see the kilted warriors fighting the brutal English? Did you see the shackled Scots being beaten by the English lords as they stole the oil and shipped it back to England at the expense of the poor poverty ridden Scots? Did you see the feudal kings?
No I saw nothing like that - I saw rolling hills and economic growth, I saw infrastrucutre and Scots going about Scottish business. I saw wealth, I saw affluence, I saw FREEDOM!
151

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 10/04/2009 20:59:25
158, Media at One, did you read the papers and see the Scottish news?
152

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 10/04/2009 21:01:12
Or did media at one get there at 2?
153

Darien,

Panama 10/04/2009 21:07:17
#158 Media:

If Scotland is as fabulous and prosperous as you paint it, surely it does not need to be 'kept' as a region (or rather, internal colony) of the British 'nation' (sic)?

Surely such a great place can stand on its own two feet, much like other far poorer medium-sized nations. You know, with a real parliament and all that, and recognised as an equal by all other nations too; as opposed to not being recognised at all (as a nation).

Yer awfie easy pleased, suppin the milk and gi'in awa the cream, o' nationhood, nae less.
154

Tris,

10/04/2009 21:09:35
I'm all for equality, but can't people sometimes do things, join clubs, have fun without members of the oppostie sex there.

It changes things when you mix the sexes; people behave differently. It works for both sexes. I can't see that it means inequality.

It's getting out of hand. Soon it will be forbidden to have separate toilets. But I note that a woman still retires at 60 and gets a full pension, while a man has to wait till he's 65. Not very equal there then.
155

Faux Cul,

10/04/2009 21:14:07
Never in the field of internet trolling has so much tripe been spoken by so many about something so irrelevant.

If you want to talk about why the Scots fund an English university in Scotland, fair dooooosssss.

Goodnight all and LA I want my money!

Faux Cough
156

Jacob L McClary,

Tennessee 10/04/2009 22:35:32
My grandfather was a member of the KKK and spent 30 years in prison.This was a very old elite club that prominent members of the US Government were a member.

Is this English club any different? Your demise is coming...I promise.
157

Duncan in Edinburgh,

10/04/2009 22:36:09
#161 A bizarre inverted argument. Of course Scotland could be independent. I don't think any serious person would dispute that. But if you consider Scotland currently to be "kept" or a colony, then I'm afraid the problem lies with you, not with the constitutional settlement, because that is a false view of our present state. We are not subservient to anyone.

Saying that Scotland is a UK colony is like saying that Orkney is Scottish colony.

You really do inhabit a strange version of the world, one I'm glad I'm not a part of.
158

csfindlay,

10/04/2009 22:36:14
Why has everyone attacked the Kate Kennedy club? The only reason people seem to have against it is the fact that they are specific to who joins it. In which it is a great pleasure and pride to the people who are asked to join it.
They organise events for St Andrews which i am pretty sure everyone attends and enjoys, so the fact that now everyone is trying to cut its resources is almost laughable. There are thousands of single sex groups and clubs, yet Louise Richardson decides to get aggitated because herself personally wasn't asked to join the golf club. The golf club! Not the Kate Kennedy club.
The Kate Kennedy Club is a tradition well known through Scotland. You do not have to be part of a private school to join it and you are selected by your manners. If they were to lower their standards then it would lower the standards of St Andrews University.
And to be quite frank, it's not everyday you see men organising events and doing things for themselves. Maybe women are threatened by the fact the men of St Andrews play a larger role than the women, yet that doesn't mean to attack it.
The Kate Kennedy Club should not be stripped of their rights to use the University's facilities, because if done then their greatness will still shine through, but will not be associated with St Andrews University, which would be a great loss.

Louise Richardson isn't complaining out of justice and for equal rights, but out of selfishness and attention seeking.
159

Horrible Cankers @Cyber Shebeen,

10/04/2009 22:43:39
164...Eh aye...jist a tad different pal...jist a tad...they might wear the white pokey hat but I suspect thats aboot it...
160

Darien,

Panama 11/04/2009 00:03:24
#165: "the constitutional settlement"

Aye, that'll be the Treaty of Union you refer to, signed in return for bribes given to that parcel o' rogues, the unelected aristos in the then Scottish parliament. A fine Settlement indeed.

"Saying that Scotland is a UK colony is like saying that Orkney is Scottish colony."

Funny you should compare Scotland to a county, as did Blair in referring to the reconvened Scottish parliament. However I think you will find that, unlike Scotland, Orkney is not a nation. In any event. Orkney is the least 'Scottish' of any county in Scotland, with the possible exception of Shetland.

"We are not subservient to anyone."

I am afraid the numerical preponderance of English MP's over Scots MP's at Westminster means Scotland, and the Scots people, will always be subservient so long as we remain a part of the quaintly named 'nation' known as UKofGB&NI.

"You really do inhabit a strange version of the world, one I'm glad I'm not a part of."

There's only one word for this point of view - denial.

There is a Norwegian term for people who betray their nation. You might know it. It was coined after Major Vidkun Quisling who headed a puppet government in Norway during WWII. There is nothing "bizarre" about that. Like Brown, and Alexander, coincidentally Quisling was also the son of a minister. Quisling was executed in 1945.

161

AlecL,

Australia 11/04/2009 00:33:35
Los Angeles,

it's pretty obvious you're just in here to troll and stir things up. I don't know whether you're male or female, but your opinion is worthless. It seems you have enough time to sit in here adding, oh, twice as many comments as anyone else, and all of them nonsense. You're a hypocrite of the highest order.

Go away.

As to male/female only clubs, I think they're a good idea. The women can get away from the men... and vice versa. And women, let's face it: you don't want to be around men with all their scratching, farting and boofhead nonsense, do you? These places are somewhere guys can be guys. Uhh, even if they dress as women. :D

Think of such clubs as breathing space.

 

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