Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement

 
 
Monday, 6th October 2008 Change Date

Premium Article !

Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Options

Premium Article !

To read this article in full you must have registered and have a Premium Content Subscription with the The Scotsman site.

Subscribe

Registered Article !

To read this article in full you must be registered with the site.

Europe crisis as Irish say No



Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 14 June 2008
THE future of the European Union was at a crossroads last night after Ireland rejected plans to transfer more powers to Brussels.
The UK government said moves to ratify the Lisbon Treaty at Westminster should continue, but David Cameron, the Tory leader, said it should be "declared dead."

The treaty aimed to simplify the EU's voting systems, following enlargement to 27 mem
bers with the accession of eastern European nations, by removing national vetoes in around 60 areas.

It also proposed the creation of a post of President of Europe – for which Tony Blair was suggested by the French – and an EU foreign affairs supremo.

But Ireland – the only country to hold a referendum – rejected the treaty by a majority of 110,000, with 862,415 people opposed and 752,451 in favour.

This was despite Ireland having benefited from years of EU subsidies and with all its main parties in favour. The vote all but killed off the treaty, as each member state has to ratify it.

The treaty had been put forward by the 27 heads of government because efforts to impose a more radical new constitution collapsed, after being rejected by the French and Dutch in 2005.

David Miliband, the UK Foreign Secretary, said last night that the result had to be digested, while EC President Jose Manuel Barroso appeared to leave open the possibility of Ireland being allowed to sign up to Lisbon later on.

But Mr Cameron said: "I think the elites in Brussels have got to listen to people in Europe who do not want endless powers being passed from nation states to Brussels."

Struan Stevenson, a Tory MEP for Scotland, said: "This is a good day for democracy in Europe. This will completely reshape the way Europe will go in the future. It will become more of a Europe of the citizens, rather than a Europe of the ivory-towered elite.

"Every time the citizens of Europe are asked about the constitution, they reject it. This time, I'm certain this is the end of the road for the Lisbon Treaty. It's now got to be dead and buried.

"If any other country had been given the chance to have their say, they would have voted No as well. The Lisbon Treaty was going to impose on 500 million citizens a president of Europe who would have been decided over cigars and cognac in the Elysées Palace."

However, David Martin, a Labour MSP, said: "I think it's very bad news, especially for those of us who were hoping the Lisbon Treaty was going to lead to a more open and democratic Europe. The danger is, it leaves Europe in limbo at a time when there are so many policy areas that need European action."

Ian Hudghton, an SNP MEP, said the rejection offered Scotland a chance to develop its case on becoming independent in Europe. It could also allow MEPs the freedom to make key changes to the common fisheries policy, which he said needed "radical reform if not scrapping".

Mr Hudghton said: "It's a good indication of why Gordon Brown bottled out of having a promised referendum in the UK. I suspect something similar might have happened."

Elspeth Attwooll, the Lib Dem MEP for Scotland, blamed "scare stories" for leading Irish people to vote No. She said: "There is going to have to be a strong lead from the heads of state and government to find a way out of this predicament."

Three strikes but not out – what the vote means

Why did the Irish reject the Lisbon Treaty?


There were a number of reasons, but many voters believed the "Yes" campaign had simply failed to make its case. There was also opposition to Ireland losing its permanent commissioner under plans to streamline the EU.

What does it mean for the future of Europe?

The governments of each of the 27 member states will have to decide on a way forward. Business will continue as normal but plans to remove national vetoes in 60 areas and appoint a president of Europe will not go ahead.

Will the SNP have to change its policy of Independence in Europe?

No. The party argues that the Irish vote merely allows time to think how it can argue in Europe for a bigger say for Scotland, while protecting national sovereignty.

What has happened to the UK government's bid to ratify the Lisbon Treaty?

The treaty is currently being considered by the House of Lords, having been approved narrowly in March by the Commons. The government says it will press ahead regardless of the Irish vote.

Why did Ireland get to vote on the treaty when the UK didn't?

The Irish people are allowed a vote under their country's constitution – making it the only one of the 27 EU countries to hold a referendum. The UK government argued that, despite a manifesto pledge to hold a vote, the Lisbon Treaty did not markedly change the relationship with Europe and therefore did not have to be put to the public.

Would the UK also have voted against the treaty?

That is the belief of many Eurosceptics. They accuse Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, of running scared by refusing to allow a referendum.

Haven't we been here before?

This is the third time that greater European integration has been rejected by the people. In 2005, the French and Dutch rejected the proposed new EU constitution – which would have replaced the Rome and Maastricht Treaties – leading to the emergence of the Lisbon Treaty as a compromise.





The full article contains 931 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 13 June 2008 11:28 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: European Union
 
1

Angus Ogg,

13/06/2008 22:35:10

EC President Jose Mugabe Barroso is in denial.

He is ignoring the democratic will of the electorate.

Unlike Mugabe, Barros does not have an armed dictatorship to quash the rebellious Irish, so he ignores the voters at his peril.

Political regimes go in cycles. Usually because the electorate get sick of useless politicians and vote them out.

The USSR drew together all the soviets, then the Communists politically imploded.

So it will be with the EU Political Gravy Train. What we really need is to appoint Mikhail Gorbachev to the EU Presidency so the EU Regime can be given a reality check.
2

DouglasT,

14/06/2008 00:56:13
Line the EU 'leaders' are taking is that '18 member states have ratified the treaty'. What about the people of those member states? How many of them have ratified the 'treaty/constitution'? Answer, none - none have been allowed the opportunity to support or reject it. Democracy? they're taking the p"ss.

Whenever the people have been given a say it has produced the same result ...

Denmark rejected it, Holland rejected it, France rejected it, Ireland rejected it.
3

BIG EYE,

Paisley 14/06/2008 01:20:25
So the EU tried to take more powers and the voters in several countries said no. No problem a couple of tinkering changes and we go again, this time putting all the effort into devising excuses that allow the politicians to deny the poeple of Europe a vote.

Problem, semocratic Ireland has a written constitution, unlike Scotland or the UK that stops politicians playing these games.

The polls open, the polls close the Irish people say no.

As a pro European I say thank you Ireland I want to see the trading partnership continue but I don't want a United States of Europe.

From a Scottish Independence viewpoint this is a great result and points to the lies that small nations can have no influence events in Europe and the World.

As for Gordon Brown and the dishonest Labour Party disaster strikes yet again!
4

Edward,

14/06/2008 01:58:40
'EC President Jose Manuel Barroso appeared to leave open the possibility of Ireland being allowed to sign up to Lisbon later on'
Which bit of NO, doesnt Barroso understand?
5

Richard1,

14/06/2008 02:54:15
Three cheers for ROI,for voting this down.I am not surprised by the unease, posture of the Irish Political Establishment.Scotland should take note.ROI is like a drug addict,fine when the European Commission Funds come in,and they can use these to cut Corpartion Tax.

The problem for ROI is it is like a drug addict because it is dependant,always on this fix,i am not be-moaning certain success they have had,just see both sides of the story.

Due to the dependency on EU funds to cut corparation tax they are wedded to an invasion by foreign firm's.ROI dosn't really have any companies worth the name itself because of this drip feeding.

The SNP support should realise,listening to Irish Politicians they realise now they need Euro,they need the EU,they are dependent on it.the SNP support on here that thinks they can leave EU and survive like ROI are kidding themselves.
6

Scott Webb.......,

14/06/2008 04:01:08
You could not make this up :)

http://news.uk.msn.com/Article.aspx?cp-documentid=8589961
7

tismyself,

North Carolina 14/06/2008 04:24:23
Three cheers for Ireland!!

The similarities between this situation and the American War Between the States are creepy.
8

Richard1,

14/06/2008 04:51:47
What Ireland has done is great for us in the uk!,be in no dought not for Ireland.

Lisbon Treaty wants to harmanise tax rates across EU,ROI would see it's whealth deteriate rapidly if companies starting moving to E.Europe for low wages.

However Ireland needs to be in the EU & Euro,this is why it got the overseas investment in the first place,due to having free access to 500 million customer's.

So Ireland can never leave EU,can't except an EU treaty that harmonises tax.

In Short they are up a creak without a paddle,you see countries that havn't had the foriegn investment of Ireland,have on paper worse economies,in truth they might have some,a couple multinational companies amongst the dross,because they had to do it the hard way.

Ireland didn't have to bother having Irish companie's they had all the foreign ones.

It's always best to have your own companies as your whealth creator.
9

terry osser,

morden 14/06/2008 05:39:51
the eu was conceived as a non-democratic organization from day after the war asd its proponents knew that they could not achieve their goal of a united states of europe headed by french and germans democratically. the creeping control from Brussels is part of the plan. i want a vote to leave eu
10

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 14/06/2008 06:14:24
The Irish must revote, and revote again until they get it right. Then no more votes.

This is the same as the SNP independence referendum policy. And Mugabe's.

Always remember: your leaders know best! You are mere rubber stamps endorsing their wisdom.
11

,

14/06/2008 06:25:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
12

W Smith,

Middle East 14/06/2008 06:57:46
Its the 'harmonising' of the corporation tax that could have killed of Ireland's competitiveness as some French and German ministers complained that Ireland has an 'unfair' advantage with setting this particuar tax at 12.5%.

If the 'advantage' had been on Germany's or France's side this wouldn't have been a problem.

Well done Ireland - they don't like it up 'em!

BTW
Where does European Unionist Alex Salmond stand on this issue?
13

W Smith,

Middle East 14/06/2008 07:07:37
Richard 1

1) Doesn't Ireland have companies that employ thousands in the USA?

2) Didn't Shire Pharmaceutical (UK's third largest) move its headquarters to Dublin rather than Edinburgh!

If HSBC is 'British' by moving its HQ from Hong Kong to London then Shire is effectively an 'Irish' company now is it not?

The way I see it is this is not a vote against the EU but a vote against Brussels stealing even more control.
14

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 14/06/2008 07:13:08
I think if you held this referendum in most member states this treaty would be rejected. Most people in Europe don't want to a European Superstate.

They are happy about having a common market and a customs union, but the idea of giving Superstate status to an organization as inefficient as the one in Brussels gets rejected every time it comes to a vote.

If the politicians, who are the only ones supporting this, want additional powers they could strengthen their case if the could actually produce a set of books that could be signed off by an auditor.

The idea that we should make the financially unaccountable, politically unaccountable has been rejected again. Time for the politicians to go have a serious think about what people really want from the EU and not just a rejigging of a rejected treaty.
15

Richard1,

14/06/2008 07:17:57
14,the fact's are only around 10% of ROI,export's are related to actual Irish companies,this is the other side of the argument for low corparation tax.USA for instance has the second highest of the major economies,Ireland relies too much on this American-Irish bond,it's RUBBISH!!!USA HAS BEEN LOSING MILLIONS OF JOB'S ABROAD FOR CHEAPER WAGE'S,THEY WON'T THINK TWICE ABOUT LEAVING ROI.
16

Richard1,

14/06/2008 07:25:25
You see this is all politics,you have to look behind the scene's to see what's going on.Germany's population is shrinking,they make up 30% of EU GDP,ROI and it's advantage on corparation tax has become a headache,as Ireland dosn't give money to the EU coffer's.THEY WANT THE MAJOR COUNTRIES TO GET ALL THE BREAK'S,SO MORE MONEY CAN BE PAYED TO THE EU COFFER'S.

There's no point in having an advantage over the countries that give all the money to the EU,when they are just recipiants.that's the way the EU work's.
17

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 14/06/2008 07:42:22
#12

"Also,Spain will be the oldest country in the world by 2050,followed not behind by Germany,Italy,with some of the world's lowest birth-rates,this will increase our power,if we want quite dramaticaly."

"UK TO OVERTAKE GERMANY TO BECOME LARGEST EU ECONOMY BY EARLY 2020's."

THis may well be, but it wont be built on the UKs economic competetiveness, it will be built on the UK Governments policy of uncontrolled immigration. You might also include that by 2050 the most widely practiced religion in England will be Islam.
18

mike3,

Midlands 14/06/2008 07:52:38
If the treaty doesn't much change the relationship with Europe of the individual countries then why all the fuss?
19

Labour Sleeze Reporter,

14/06/2008 08:02:52
Thank you, Ireland. A lot of people owe you one now.
20

Richard1,

14/06/2008 08:08:43
18,sorry but muslim's have been in UK for 30 year's and at last census made up 2.9%,2.9% too much for me but that's another matter.

As for your other claim'it won't be built on UK competivness.really!!FORBES 2000 LARGEST WORLD COMPANIES 2008:

USA:HAS 589
UK 157
GERMANY 49

Hey i didn't make the fact's if you don't like it get in touch with FORBES.
21

thinking,

Scotland 14/06/2008 08:47:20
David Martin, a Labour MSP, said: "I think it's very bad news, especially for those of us who were hoping the Lisbon Treaty was going to lead to a more open and democratic Europe.
The EU democratic? Which planet does he live on?
22

FTH22inarow,

14/06/2008 08:50:30
Typical Irish, been taking handouts from the EU for years,and then when they're asked to pay they bite the hand that fed them.
23

Marian,

14/06/2008 09:04:31
Whatever you may feel about the pro's and con's of the EU there can be no doubt that it is an affront to European democracy that its so-called "leaders" have lied and cheated EU voters by claiming that the Lisbon Treaty is not a constitution and therefore does not require a referendum consent from EU voters before it can be adopted.

It would be an even greater affront to democracy oif they now still try to bulldoze it through for the rest of us by ignoring the wishes of the voters of the only country that had the honesty and the guts to hold a referedum.
24

Loki - The Scourge of the Schemies,

EH1 14/06/2008 09:08:20
'Crisis'? What crisis? There is no crisis unless the status quo was accepted as a crisis!
For 'crisis' read 'bruised political egos'!
25

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 14/06/2008 09:10:09
Thank god for Ireland's voters - though her politicians should be thrown into the Liffy - every party apart from Sinn Fein demanded a YES vote. Just heard Jim Murphy - a UK Minister - squirm and wriggle through a grilling by John Humphreys. Listening to this smug, slimy, lying snake (and a Scot too!) made my stomach turn. Murphy made it perfectly clear - you can have all the NO votes you want - but you're STILL going to get what WE give you. The Politicial Elites in Europe don't give a t@ss for the Irish vote - they will be told to VOTE AGAIN- and bribed with a few £billion until they produce the RIGHT ANSWER.

Welcome to the EUSSR. The roots of the next war are being planted now. Eventually, somebody will have to fight to get out of this creeping fascist state,
26

Spoot,

Third rock pool on the left 14/06/2008 09:20:01
Interesting - more than eleven years ago we were told that, because fewer than 50% of the Scottish electorate voted for for devolution, the Scottish Parliament had no real legitimacy.

Between 28% and 29% of the Irish electorate voted "No" in the treaty referendum, yet the same pundits and newspapers assure us that this represents a crushing defeat for the treaty's proponents.
27

Thistledhu,

14/06/2008 09:22:31
good to see ROI exersiseing there democratic rights.

However it is a bit of take your cake and eat it ROI i assume will still expect the massive subsidies that allows it to have such a low cooperate tax rate and attract foreign buisness at the expense of other member countrys.

The brussel's manderins will choose their time but there will come the day when ROI will be forced to face the prospect of haveing to pay there own way and the celtic tiger will feel very very sick!!!
28

Artist,

Glasgow 14/06/2008 09:36:20
Well done! EU is a Bogus Crupt Scam!
29

Citylocal Fife,

Fife News 14/06/2008 09:37:04
It would be nice if Gordon Brown had the bottle/decency to let the UK electorate have a vote.

He has a very strange view of democracy, whereby in the 28/42 days detention debacle, he was *aligned* with the British public, but apparently alignment only fits where it suits...

Time he resigned...




Yours etc

Angus Whitton
30

lachlan,

14/06/2008 09:39:19
we need an EU thats speaks with one voice and descision making speeded up.you just have to look at the US china and india to see the competition.no single EU state can compete with them.(i think we are now seeing the folly of not joining the euro).we think the UK makes its own descisions, what can it do on its own about the global credit crunch.the standard of living across the EU is similar or getting there.that helps keep the peace.the EU member states have not been at war since its formation.just have alook at the member states history before that.more democratic,i may be wrong but i was under the impression the treaty of lisbon was giving more powers to member states and elected MEPs.(an independent scotland would have more MEPs)
31

Dr. James Wilkie,

Vienna 14/06/2008 09:41:07
"EC President Jose Manuel Barroso appeared to leave open the possibility of Ireland being allowed to sign up to Lisbon later on."

In other words, the Lisbon is going to be implemented anyway and hell mend the Irish. This is the very attitude that has provoked the European-wide reaction against the EU. The Irish vote would have been replicated all over Europe if the people had not been denied the opportunity to decide.

What they are rebelling against is not the paragraphs of a treaty. It is the sense of having been railroaded into something they neither need nor want, the sense that a caste of would-be global statespersons are trampling on their rights in pursuit of an ideology that has no relevance to their daily lives.

The EU leadership asked for it and they got it. The Lisbon treaty is dead. This time there must be no second run at it until the power-brokers get the answer they want. This single organisation is not "Europe", and it can become Europe only if and when the peoples of Europe decide that that is what they want. That the EU leadership have failed to take the peoples of Europe with them in pursuit of their global ambitions is obvious, and in the final analysis the proof of their failure.
32

pwd,

Borders 14/06/2008 10:11:27
* 32

Well said!
33

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 14/06/2008 10:21:57
Quote:

"However, David Martin, a Labour MSP, said: "I think it's very bad news, especially for those of us who were hoping the Lisbon Treaty was going to lead to a more open and democratic Europe. The danger is, it leaves Europe in limbo at a time when there are so many policy areas that need European action."

We all know that "Europe" will never be "open" nor "democratic", with or without this Treaty. That is simple spin.

And just for my education, could someone please tell me what these many policy areas are that are in such desperate need of EU action? (Please exclude Global Warming from the list).
34

Kipling,

@Doomray 14/06/2008 10:30:04
To Rafferty ain't to Ratify. (Rafferty = "prosperity wielder").

The Lisbon Treaty was the nylon thread in a counterpaine designed to suffocate the sleeping people of Europe... A breath of fresh Eire has hopefully saved us. Well done Ireland !

#12 & #18. Scotland, first unified under the Pictish Kings, has probably the oldest continual border designating a unified area. (You talked of Spain being the oldest country).
35

Richard1,

14/06/2008 10:37:10
35,ya numpty,i meant by age,spain already has over 10,000 people over 100,UN says by 2050 it will be the oldest country on the planet.something like 40% of the entire population will be over 65.

probs because they have all the foreign oldies going for the sun,and there own population retiring.
36

Arran of Arran,

Arran 14/06/2008 11:07:05
Well done, Ireland.

it is now time for all the leading politicians in all EU states to understand the reasons why the NON-EU states situated in Europe are in all league tables always on top, never mind to which subjects (and the uK is usually toward the bottom):
Switzerland, Norway, Iceland, Andorra, Monaco, San Marino. And the people of those countries (some of them with the lowest natural ressources) are usually happy people with good relation with their choosen political representants.

Main reason: In all those countries the politicians understand that they are only politicians, because they SERVE the people. And they do not have «Commissars» who have got the job because they were useless in their own contry. Remember Mandelsomething of B-Lair fame?
37

Pilrig.,

Livingston 14/06/2008 11:14:46
God bless Ireland !

BTW, G. Broon never signed the Lisbon Treaty: there is no photographic evidence, a doppleganger signed it for him....
38

W Smith,

Middle East 14/06/2008 11:15:47
Its not just the Irish who are having doubts about the EU.

According to one poll 59% of the German population have doubts about the Euro currency.

Each country prints its own Euros according to its economic 'weight'. German Euro notes have an 'X' while in Spain they have 'V' and Italy they have an 'S'.

The banks in Germany have noticed some customers exchanging Italian and Spanish Euros for German.

The concern is that if this system collapses then the Euro may exchange for different rates as in the 1840's in the USA when dollar notes from different states traded at a different value.

You just couldn't make this up!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/06/13/cneuro113.xml&CMP=ILC-mostviewedbox
39

Fairfax,

14/06/2008 11:29:53
Richard1 (21): "18,sorry but muslim's have been in UK for 30 year's and at last census made up 2.9%,2.9% too much for me but that's another matter."

That's correct. However, their population growth has been exponential: family reunification and much higher birthrates imply extremely rapid growth. Extrapolating the 2001 ONS statistic you have given implies current Muslim numbers somewhere in the 4 million range for England and Wales, i.e. slightly less than the population of Scotland. However, their percentage representation amongst, say, the population younger than 25 tells us a very different figure. If no changes in law occur, then it's highly likely that England will have a Muslim population of roughly 10 million within 15 years, and that population will probably be the majority youth population in some larger cities, including London.
40

Rob - Honest Toun,

14/06/2008 11:52:34
"David Martin, a Labour MSP,"

Is thon the same David Martin that's a Maimber o the European Pairlament?
41

Richard1,

14/06/2008 11:54:41
40,i couldn't agree more,i think all immigration should be stopped,to count the numbers for a start and access the impact.it's not too late,that is one of the reason's i have switched my allegiance to the conservatives,for the first time ever.

I do think they will be more hardline than they are coming across,as they don't want to scare anyone off when they can smell victory.
42

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 14/06/2008 12:02:55
Gerri Peev writes that the Irish have soaked up £16bn of EU grants since 1973. It was 1000 days of free Guinness: then they re-emerged roaring like Celtic Tigers and never looked back.

More likely the EU money was spent on boring things like factories, offices, roads and the usual infrastructure. Farmers' inclinations are to buy new tractors, new cowsheds and more cows but you've still got to work it.

Banks since day one have never given any money away . Never. So this £16B of new money which only banks can legally make must be repaid by the EU's taxpayers. Irish having borrowed money to pay for house price inflation which now goes with any "economic boom" (well it looks alot better than saying that your currency has been written down and devalued) will pay up yes or no to whatever's called a treaty or constitution.

Are there better ways?
43

Richard1,

14/06/2008 12:03:15
40,it should be said last year there was a baby-boom with about 700,000 babies born,a lot were to Polish and UK-Polish couples this will counterbalance,as these are of course white.
44

bluehead,

edinburgh 14/06/2008 12:20:16
three cheers for Ireland the only country showing signs
of sanity,every where else,madness seems to prevail.
the labour government will be for ever known as the pile that
sold of Britain to the foreigners
45

Richard1,

14/06/2008 12:21:56
45,why is it racist to want to keep your county majority it's race it has been for 5000 yrs.
46

Loki - The Scourge of the Schemies,

EH1 14/06/2008 12:27:50
#28 : Thistledhu:
ROI i assume will still expect the massive subsidies

The Republic of Ireland is about to become a net contributor following the enlargement of the EU.
47

Richard1,

14/06/2008 12:30:54
45,on the internet there is a German Government Report from last year,1 in 4 German babies born in 2015 will be to muslim parents.

I don't want that here,so if that make's me racist so be it.
48

WL,

livingston 14/06/2008 12:59:01
There is no crisis in the EU, but the people want the status quo. Have a referendum on the EU and the people will say no, this time in Ireland, 3 years ago in France and the Netherlands.
Have a referendum in the UK and the people will say no. That is the reason why Broon does not want a referendum. He does not want the people to decide.
49

JoeMcT,

BlairsFantasyIsland 14/06/2008 13:26:24
Well done Ireland.

Funny how our Politicians of all parties keep telling us about the marvels of Democracy......but then they go into denial when a vote goes against what "they" want.

It's high time that this tail wagging the dog stuff stopped.

Are you listening Gordon?
50

Richard1,

14/06/2008 13:26:31
51,you are wasting your time,i am not going to bite get over it keep fishing if you want.

bbyyyyee
51

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 14/06/2008 14:07:32
After this result, just watch the UKIP loonies having a field day at Tory expense during the by-election in David Davis's constituency!

The 5,500 Tory majority might well be overturned?

52

Fairfax,

14/06/2008 14:29:46
Methalions (50): "Early Anglian dialects, such as found in the old English saga Beowulf, owe much of their vocabulary to Scandinavian languages."

And not just the early dialects. The word "sky", for example, is of Scandinavian origin, as is "they". However, your examples of earlier immigration are all ones of fairly similar groups, all of which come from Europe. In recent decades we have seen immigration on an unprecedented scale from very different areas and ethnicities -- to continue with your historical tack, we are living through the largest population movements since the fall of the Western Roman Empire in the 400s. Why should the occurrence of earlier immigrations imply that latter immigrations are innocuous?
53

sigholm,

ayr 14/06/2008 14:42:21
Brown has to yield to the demands of the populace and grant us a referendum,failure to do so shall condemn him to a rogues place in our nations' history.
Can the nodding Donkeys of New Labour not develop a back-bone and issue him with an ultimatum for their continued support.
Collectivly,they stand at the cross-roads and neglect of our freedom shall be too dire to contemplate.
54

JCA REID,

Annan 14/06/2008 14:54:01
Well done Ireland!!
however, these piddling eurocrats will keep pestering away to get what they want....a burgeoning bureaucracy so they can justify their existence & get massive pensions for doing nowt.....look @ Neil Kinnock!!!!!
Under him the corruption & fraud doubled....he sacked the whistleblower & he got a 6figure lump some.....a large index-linked, 5figure pension & "promotion" to the House of Lords, where he gets the above!!!
55

suzuky7502000,

Belgium 14/06/2008 15:02:02
Congratulations to the Irish people for stopping the European invasion.Our leaders press us to vote for their silly treaty and once again-after France and Holland's denial- some brave must dare say NO to their huge profits.
Now these officials will try and find another parade to twist the original text so that it will appear plausible.!!!!Europe is not our future!!!!
56

monkey man,

14/06/2008 15:10:34
Anyone who believes the Irish voted NO to this Treaty for any altruistic reasons or for to keep the concept of "democracy" alive is clearly deranged. The Irish voted No purely for national self-interest and nothing else.

They know their country, after being the biggest subsidy junkie in the EU, had to now start to financially contribute to the EU pot to support the up and coming European nations and they were having none of it.

The Irish, hypocritically, have only bitten the hand that literally fed them for decades.

The Irish hypocrisy is why the EU was/is a waste of time.
57

ThomasP,

14/06/2008 16:26:33
And you speak for the Irish people Moneky Man?

The Irish people had their reasons to vote No against the Lisbon Treaty and you have no right you assume why they voted against the Treaty.

Perhaps at the end of the day the Irish voted No for the reasons you stated they never voted no for.
58

Scott Webb.......,

14/06/2008 16:38:51
Things are getting heavy in America

http://prisonplanet.com/articles/june2008/140608_a_kucinich.htm
59

Soph,

UK 14/06/2008 16:39:43
The EU was fine when it was the Common Market but we and I suspect most other states were never given an opportunity to vote about any of the other matters/powers that have now been handed over to the European parliament.

Brussels Superstate????..... Its already here..... when they can dictate to us about how many immigrants we have to allow in, and we cannot control or even have a say in how many other Europeans may come and work here indefinitely then we don't govern ourselves any longer and if you truly think we do then you`re fooling yourself.

We have been promised a referendum on Europe so many times but we all know that the "powers" that be in this country would never allow us one as it is very likely that we would be out of Europe faster than a labour MP can say " Uh but that wasn`t what we intended to happen"
60

NYScott,

Upper rolling hills of NY State 14/06/2008 17:17:13
I wouldn't quite put it as the Rebellion of 1861 (civil war) and Ireland sticking up for itself. First there's no Slaver in Ireland nor has there been any shot's fired. National Bank was a bigger part of the war than you may know about too. That part would be similar.
Either way "Right On Ireland!"
61

Buckpool Loon,

Cheshire 14/06/2008 17:50:31
I've already had my say on the Herald Blog and can't be bothered to repeat it here.

But in essence the Irish seem to be the only nation in Europe that places the wishes of it's people as paramount and soveriegn. And, in this case the Irish have struck a blow for sanity and commonsense.

Nobody but the elite EU unelected Oligarchy know the intentions behind the Lisbon Treaty. It's a document spun to a web of obscurity that has been ratified by the political snake-oil conmen, including our own, of some 28 supposidly democratic states.

In plain language its a pig in a poke of dubious purpose and the Irish have refused to be taken in by it.

The only value added to this country by its membership of the EU is the tax named after it (VAT) which, just about, balances the cost of membership but in no way reinforces its viability.

Other than that it's just another tier of political chicanery paying lip service to democracy.

We have enough problems with our domestic quota of that to know not to expand it.
62

monkey man,

14/06/2008 18:02:53
#63

The Irish voted for selfish, national self-interest which is supposed to be the antithesis of the EU. I wonder if wee fatty Salmond, the admirer of anything the Irish espouse and who he also wants Scotland to model themselves on, would be pleased with their NO vote.? Would he demand we follow suit and vote ourselves out of the EU.? I wonder...........
63

Barbarac,

Idaho USA 14/06/2008 18:31:20
As a U.S. citizen I find this interesting.
We have at the federal level laws that pertain to the country as a whole. These are outlined in the Constitution. No 10 states all non itemized laws in amendments 1 through 9, are for each state to decide for themselves.
For example laws pertaining to coast line fishing would not be applicable to states that do not have a boundary line to the ocean.

Sounds like Ireland may have read our constitution. Each state has the right to determine self rule with in its boundary. Not all of the states have sales taxes. Some have as much as 6 cents on the dollar with some cities or counties adding on to the state tax.

Unfortunately out elected federal representatives have ignored number 10. Our federal government is far more socialist than our founding fathers ever could have imagined.
64

Matt there,

somewhere 14/06/2008 18:37:53
So David Martin believes that a democratic vote is bad news?

When does he propose getting rid of democratic votes, then?
65

Buckpool Loon,

Cheshire 14/06/2008 18:44:14
#71 Matt - they already are.
66

Milton101,

Edinburgh 14/06/2008 19:57:35
YES! YES! YES!
Britain must be allowed to vote on the Lisbon Plan or any other treaty that curtails British sovereignty to a monster EU kingdom.

Mugabe and EU appear both undemocratic players.
67

fritigern,

Inverness 14/06/2008 20:10:14
All the main Irish political parties supported a Yes vote. That alone would justify any rational person voting No. Politicians couldn't care less about the general public and if they nearly all agree on something it must be against the interests of the people.
68

Thistledhu,

14/06/2008 20:14:11
as i predicted in my first post on this subject it looks as if the main result of this vote will be Ireland being left behind by the rest of europe, the lisbon treaty will go ahead Ireland will have to negotiate its own agreement within the EU which will undoubtley cost them.
69

indune1,

Canada 14/06/2008 20:55:18

Well done Eire! Finally, some collective common sense! Hopefully, the buro-euro-monkeys will wake up and realize that the will of the people and sovereign rights of nations cannot be ignored.

Yes, if allowed a vote, you could put me down for an emphatic no.

Meths - old chum,;how is the plunge pool?
70

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 14/06/2008 21:36:31
To vote in the national interest is not selfish, it's voting for the common or greater good. From their origins Irish may be 1% of the current euro-pool but are as European as they come. Had every euro-tom dick harry john sheila and samantha voted on this dubious treaty would we be any the bettter? It's actually a vote by a people rather than a power-brokers' agreement which has been the way of the EU since its inception.
71

lachlan,

14/06/2008 21:37:34
#78
'European army? No.'
why not are we going to stert fighting each other.
72

indune1,

Canada 14/06/2008 22:04:41

Meths, yeah, everything all right this side of the pond!

Have Spain in my Euro pool, so everything is indeed perfecto!

Hope you remember that plunge pool is empty during moments of - say it ain't so - inebriation!!

73

ThomasP,

14/06/2008 22:10:37
80 lachlan

A European Army would be as pethetic as NATO.

Without America a European Army would consist of Britain sending her soldiers to the worst parts of the world while Germany and France send their soldiers to a pub.
74

raim,

Porto, Portugal 14/06/2008 22:19:58
Ireland vs Treaty of Lisbon... (cartoon)
http://raim.blogspot.com/2008/06/ireland-vs-treaty-of-lisbon.html
75

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 14/06/2008 22:22:26
A European President?

We haven't yet elected Scotland's President. Despite clear and unambiguous guidelines in the Declaration of Arbroath on what his duties are and the conditions of employment. ie if he is in anyway misuses his powers or proves incompetent we shall retire him and elect a successor.

Comes the hour, comes the man. It'll no be me for I'd burst onto the scene ranting like Hugh Chavez and Hugo MacD all-in-one-bound nationalizing the TV, land, electric, banks, in fact would nationalize the whole jing bang of the Nation. There'd be dancing in the streets as Jackie Bird appears on our screens like Joan of Arc to galvanize our troops on OUR side.

Scotland's businessmen and entrepreneurs, whaur's your appetite for change, innovation, excitement, danger, opportunity, fast cars and women? The future beckons.
76

lachlan,

14/06/2008 22:26:05
i am sure in the event of a european army the uk would demand an opt clause in the event of having to do the usa bidding.
77

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 14/06/2008 22:46:38
A European navy and amphibious strike-force's already been tested in exercises against the USA. The North Sea Nations gelled together to the extent of "sinking" a US carrier. The French were invited to the show but were never much in it.
78

Publius,

Girvan 14/06/2008 23:15:20
#50 Methalions

For what it's worth 80 per cent of the gene pool of people in the British Isles is accounted for by people who migrated here immediately after the end of the last ice age 10,000 to 8,000 years ago. Celts, Romans, Saxons, Norseman, Normans and all the rest account only for 20 per cent.
79

Yankee girl,

USA 14/06/2008 23:19:56
Gosh, I couldn't believe it when I read about this in the paper this morning. I had to get on the Scotsman to see what the Scots think - looks like you all agree with the Irish. Interesting political times over there!
80

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 14/06/2008 23:36:23
For what it's worth too, the maligned and misunderstood Neanderthals were aye there and are geylies mixed into our European genes. Did you notice the lethal left hand of Nadal on the baked red earth courts of Paris.

So our instincts can tell us very contradictory things.
81

Yankee girl,

USA 14/06/2008 23:41:52
#89 - LOL, Yok.
82

Rebel,

South Carolina USA 15/06/2008 03:31:16
I wonder if the Euro-Union Navy, (cited by York Finney 86), has amphibiousm capabilities to deal with those uppity Irish, (as we southerners were by the northern elitests).You Europeans need to "Get Your Minds Right" and bow to the Euro elite. Or else.
83

suzuky7502000,

Belgium 15/06/2008 12:36:33
In a way I would not be surprised that Scotland would act likewise if asked to get independency from UK.It would answer NO to union with UK.
I wonder why the subject seems to be out of date..probably because these politicians very well know the answer...
84

frenchman,

france 16/06/2008 09:33:45
as a citizen from France, I would have been very happy to have the opportunity to say "NO" to the Lisbon Treaty. Unfortunately, President Zarkozy decided to overpass the french choice which has been expressed at the referendum.
I would like to thank the irish people for their vote, and I wish them a lot of strengh for keeping their position.
Sincerely.

 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In