Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


SNP calls for probe over missing Glenrothes by-election record

Premium Article !

Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Options

Premium Article !

To read this article in full you must have registered and have a Premium Content Subscription with the The Scotsman site.

Subscribe

Registered Article !

To read this article in full you must be registered with the site.

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 03 February 2009
THE SNP demanded an inquiry today after it emerged that a record of everyone who voted in last year's Glenrothes by-election has gone missing.
The party had asked to see the marked registers from November's crucial by-election – which resulted in a shock victory for Labour.

Lindsay Roy held the seat – which is next door to Prime Minister Gordon Brown's Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath constituency – despite predictions that the Nationalists would win it.

The marked registers reveal exactly who voted in the by-election, as officials cross out the names of individuals who turn up at the polling station to cast their ballot.

However Nationalists were told last week that this had gone missing from Kirkcaldy Sheriff Court.

A spokesman for the Scottish Court Service confirmed that the registers had been delivered to the sheriff clerk there, but added that "comprehensive searches" had failed to find them.

And he said an investigation into their loss was being carried out.
But Tricia Marwick, the SNP MSP for Central Fife, called for an independent inquiry.

She said: "The marked registers are an essential element of any election campaign. They allow a check of who voted, but not how they voted, to confirm that the election was conducted properly.

"Without these records there is no evidence of either a fair or unfair election and that undermines the confidence of everyone who took part."

She went on: "It is almost beyond belief that a by-election which attracted media coverage throughout the UK, which delivered a surprise result and had a much higher turnout than anticipated now has no records to show who actually voted."

The Nationalist demanded: "There now needs to be the fullest independent inquiry carried out."

She suggested that either the Electoral Commission or the Sheriff Principal for the area could carry out an inquiry.

The SNP convener for the Central Fife area, John Beare, asked to see the marked registers in November, but it was the end of January before the Nationalists were told they were missing.

A spokesman for the Scottish Court Service said: "Despite comprehensive searches for this document, we have been unable to locate the marked register requested within Kirkcaldy Sheriff Court.

"We can confirm that the Sheriff Clerk at Kirkcaldy Sheriff Court took receipt of these items following the Glenrothes by-election in November and that the voting papers for this election, which were deposited at the same time, are available.

"This is deeply regrettable and we are investigating the circumstances relating to this loss."

But a Scottish Labour spokesman accused the Nationalists of "sour grapes"

The spokesman described the loss of the registers as "clearly very worrying" and said Holyrood justice secretary Kenny MacAskill should "carry out an investigation into why an SNP government department has lost confidential personal data again".

But the spokesman hit out: "It's like an extreme case of sour grapes and dirty tricks rolled into one.

"Lindsay Roy won the by-election because of the incompetence of the SNP locally and nationally. The ballot papers were counted fair and square in front of the eyes of the world."

He added: "Ms Marwick's comments are an insult to the intelligence of Fifers. She simply cannot accept that they decided to vote for Labour, not her party.

"The marked register is provided for the convenience of political parties. The people have spoken, and the SNP must accept they lost. Fife voted for Labour and as a result Lindsay Roy is now a brilliant local MP."

The full article contains 592 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

The Strategist,

03/02/2009 12:40:53
Hmmmm..... interesting!
2

Calum Crubag,

03/02/2009 12:41:55
But, surely everything Labour does is above board and legit?

No illegal wars, cash for questions, honours for cash...
3

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 03/02/2009 12:43:54
Aye, the Gnats will need that information for after independence, when the ethnic cleansing of all non-SNP voters (or "Unionist traitors" in Gnatspeak) gets under way.
4

BIG EYE,

Paisley 03/02/2009 12:45:47
This is no small matter.

The marked up register is used to confirm that the number of votes announced tally with, or are no greater, than the number of ballot papers issued. It is the main defence against ballot boxes being stuffed illegally.

We know all about this in Renfrewshire, some years ago a number of marked up registers went missing here, in a number of instances they covered some council wards where the uniform swing against Labour that was recorded against the Labour Party elsewhere suddenly ended, only to return again in the neighbouring wards. They were never found and the whole matter was swept under the carpet.

Has it reached the stage where we need UN observers at our elections?
5

Elephant,

Linlithgow 03/02/2009 12:46:51
Does this mean another 50,000 names and adresses are ciruclating in the criminal underworld?
Surely by now the govt must have 'misplaced' the whole ruddy country's personal details...
6

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 03/02/2009 12:48:00
#2&3 This is beyond party politics. Let us hope this is normal bureaucratic bungling, if not it is deeply sinister.
7

Linda,

Edinburgh 03/02/2009 12:52:43
Big Eye is right there have been several instances of these records going missing when unusual results have occurred in Labour held seats. Are they all mistakes?
8

Rosscobhoy,

03/02/2009 12:54:50
Well, the Americans let Bush rule for how long over a few votes in Florida. What is Glenrothes in comparison?

On a serious note though, if we are to have confidence in Democracy(Well, the belief that we actually live in one when we don't realy) the registers for things like this must be kept and be available for double checking. While it may be an honest mistake you really wouldn't put it past Brown "Doing everything he can to save the Union".
9

walter,

03/02/2009 12:55:20
What are the circumstances that these papers where discovered missing.
Did the SNP request to see the register to compare the records or are they just sore losers who are grasping at straws.
They do not like the fact that the Labour supporters of Glenrothes realised that after the results of Glasgow east they cannot sit back in the knowledge that Labour will win and went out and cast their vote.
10

Rosscobhoy,

03/02/2009 12:57:32
#3

The list shows who voted, not who they voted for. In that context your ramblings make no sense. Comments like yours offer no input to political debate and if anything will turn people further from the Union, or take them to the extreme right BNP style. You do your cause nothing but damage either way.
11

Thistledhu,

03/02/2009 12:59:18
for such a large number of documents to go missing is strange.

to put it simply the legitimicy of the result is in seriouse doubt until these registers are found
12

Rosscobhoy,

03/02/2009 13:01:00
#9

I agree it comes across as sour grapes but it cannot be dismissed as only that if the register cannot be found. It poses a lot of very difficult questions if they do not turn up.
13

Newtyle Railway,

Antarctica 03/02/2009 13:02:55
Well what a surprise. I understand there was more postal voting in this election than usual. I always suspected that Labour had fixed it and this would seem to prove it. It's hardly sour grapes on the part of the Nationalists to want to see if the election was fair and whether that is the case or not its shocking that these papers can just go missing. Robert Mugabe would no doubt hide his face in shame at such chicanery.
14

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

03/02/2009 13:10:57
Was Douglas Alexander leading the campaign?
15

ZipptJeffrey,

castle 03/02/2009 13:10:59
Does anyone with a brain seriously think that Scottish fried mars bar labour won the glenrothes election? And what about the records of the postal votes? Why were they not declared during the count?! This is electoral fraud out in the open. Postal voting needs to be banned.
16

Billiam Wallace,

03/02/2009 13:15:11
#13 Newtyle Railway. I agree with you. It isn't sour grapes when the result surprised everyone, including the winners. There seems to have been a history of these disappearances where Labour wins were unexpected. It's just a shame that the establishment that is meant to look after these documents is run by the same people with the most to gain from their disappearance.

PS. Any information on how Mr. Roy is doing as a NuLibore puppet at Westmonster?

Saor Alba
17

TWC,

03/02/2009 13:17:35
9 walter

It doesn't matter which party you support, these papers are held by the authorities for good reason it is a serious problem for us all that we cannot keep them safe.
It is highly unlikely that the Nats have been cheated to the tune of 6000 votes but somebody should be held accountable for this.
18

Raymond Thomas Brooke,

Leven England 03/02/2009 13:22:16
The shredders were moved silently and secretly from London
19

Scottish 'N British,

03/02/2009 13:22:26
13

Wheesht!!!

You make as much sense as a railway through your village did.
20

Billiam Wallace,

03/02/2009 13:24:48
I just checked Mr. Roy's voting record, which can be found here: http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/mp.php?id=uk.org.publicwhip/member/2037&showall=yes#divisions
As you can see he is a loyal little chap, always voting as instructed, never the danger of a stray thought of his own or a moral compass getting in the way of his snout at the trough.

ps. #19 SnB: The next time you make sense will be the first time ever.
21

Arfur,

03/02/2009 13:26:08
This is no real surprise. I think most folk figured that Labour had fudged this.
22

Tris,

03/02/2009 13:26:39
#6 I agree. Way beyond party politics. This is a matter of huge importance to our democracy.

In the normal course of events these records are treated with a high level of security. It is hard to believe that they can have gone missing without there being some reason. That they have, and in such a contentious seat with a surprise (to all) result, must indicate the possibility of something untoward.

Maybe of course, they have simply been left on a train, or a bus, or in the back seat of a taxi. If so they must be found and the careless person or people responsible held to account.

No sour grapes here. If we can no longer trust our electoral system and have open records, there to be scrutinised, then the last vestages of democracy are starting to disappear out the window.

It will be necessary, for the future to ask to UN and EU, observers to ensure that free and fair elections have taken place.

23

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 03/02/2009 13:26:53
Sore losers. Councils of all persuasions are terminally incompetent and always losing things. Typical of the Gnats to try to build a conspiracy theory out of it.

Reality is that smug Fatboy Salmond's troops took a hell of a beating in Glenrothes and can't accept the fact that Scots voters rejected them.

We all saw the votes being counted on TV and all Parties were present at the count to ensure fair play. If the turnouts across Wards were in any way unusual or uneven, you can bet that Party activists would have been able to spot that at the count.

Gnats. Can't win with grace and can't lose with dignity. Their do-nothing minority administration is rapidly becoming an irrelevance in Scotland. Scots need homes, schools, hospitals and jobs - not Brigadoon, phony tartanry and ads for the SNP featuring MSP for Barbados South Sean Connery and the like, and paid for by the Scottish taxpayer.
24

TWC,

03/02/2009 13:27:18
#18/19
C'mon guys we are supposed to be a country with an auditable election process not a Banana Republic, if the Nats or anybody else want to see it they should be able too.
We were alowed to see it in North Ayrhire.
25

Thistledhu,

03/02/2009 13:27:30
Once these register's turn up (and they may well if a large enough noise is made) they should be checked not only to ensure they match the ballot. They should check that the people on the register actualy voted

I hope this is just an error and the registers are on a shelf somewhere but i have this nagging doubt.
26

Number 6,

Germany 03/02/2009 13:30:11
At last, maybe we can finally bring these incompitent, sleaze drenched criminals to book. It was fairly obvious that something "Fishy" had occured when Labour actually had an election victory.

Is it true their margin of victory was practically the same as the number of postal ballotts cast?

Their arrogance, built on the back of zombie like support in Scotland,convinced them they could do anything and get away with it.

Any investigation must not involve anyone infected with labour membership. Keep them well away if we ever want to get to the truth.

Remarkably, there are bleating unionistas on this thread STILL defending this wretched party. Are they aware their dear leader has cancelled their little "British Day", just as many of us predicted.

I am convinced this is because so many areas of England expressed outrage at been called "British".
Can you imagine the reaction around the Birmingham or Oldam areas, where english is the second language and where Sharia law is already in operation?

The only rabble prepared to "Celebrate their britishness" are the hopeless hand-ringing wretches you see on this thread, waving their little Labour issued union jacks while passers-by point and snigger.

Finally, this proves we must have EU or UN monitors in place at the next General election if we want it to be free and fair.
27

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 03/02/2009 13:30:43
#22 - You'll be a Gnat then. Can't remember the same concern for "democracy" when your lot sneaked a SP election on the basis of a load of Labour ballot boxes from the seat which would have swung it the other way being swept overboard.

Whining hypocrites.
28

AJ Fife,

03/02/2009 13:32:15
Very very sinister, but not surprising.

The Labour party have a knack of making things disappear!
29

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/02/2009 13:32:18
Hello - Councils run elections. It's an SNP Council. It was the SNP Council leader who stood against Mr Roy. I seriously doubt that the vote was rigged. That would have been picked up at the count (although the postal votes require looking into). The records will be somewhere in the court. They just need to find them.
30

Astonished,

Inverclyde 03/02/2009 13:32:26
Unbelievable that some of the numpties think that this is OK.

At the very least there should be a full honest investigation - although this is unlikely under labour.



Another job for the whitewash commission and "special" reporting in the media ?


31

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

03/02/2009 13:32:27
May I suggest that we check the paper shredder.

I assumed the vote would be close and that fife is a very loyal labour base. I do not believe in coincidence. The vote was unusual in the number of postal votes and since vote rigging has happened with Labour in the past and been found out by judges it does seem prudent to investigate.

What do they have to hide? Except ballot box stuffing of course!

More Labour shame.
32

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

03/02/2009 13:35:02
If the vote was rigged then that shows that their is no Labour Strong hold left in Scotland and that is a good thing.

300 years of a corrupt union. I do not think a couple of more years will make a huge difference. Then again with El Gordo at the helm who knows what might happen to the good ship UK
33

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 03/02/2009 13:36:29
#26 - I'd respond but you are obviously quite mad. In this case you are obviously not a name, just a number. And nothing you have said adds up either.

#30 - Aye, let's have a full investigation. And if it turns out that anything untoward took place, presumably the Gnat-run local council responsible for running the bye-election will promptly resign?

You people really are tools. Maybe the Gnat Council are hiding the records in case they have to answer to King Smug for being too incompetent to swing it the SNP's way.
34

TWC,

03/02/2009 13:36:54
27 Ghengis McCann
That was in my area I think and I think our sitting MSP who was defeated accepted the outcome. This is important because the papers being missing gives weight to an already raised concern that no matter how unlikely is now given credence.
These papers must be found and checked for any inaccuracy that will put the matter to rest. They will still be there somewhere. This is not Watergate
35

Lianachan,

HIghlands 03/02/2009 13:38:33
I hope nobody has forgotten that, while trying to persuade people to vote Labour in that election, they had gun-totting thugs on the streets threatening to shoot journalists.
36

Gussie Fink-Nottle,

03/02/2009 13:40:20
#23 Oy bawheid. This isn't an ordinary council cockup, this is an M&S Style Scottish Court Service cockup.

I would have thought a snail brained Labourista like yourself might have been embarrassed that the party yer paw voted for has moved so far to the right in a desperate attempt to hold on to power and keep the lachrymose Broon as PM.

You honestly give me the dry boak.
37

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 03/02/2009 13:40:52
Are ALL of you Gnats terminally hard of thinking?

Once again - and listen carefully - the bye election was run by an SNP-run Council. An SNP-run Council is responsible for losing the marked electoral roll. If there has been any electoral fraud by those who ran the bye-election, then the SNP-run Council are responsible. What part of "SNP-run" do you lot not understand then?

The organisation of the bye-election had nothing to do with Labour, OK. So spare us your knee jerk protestations.
38

,

03/02/2009 13:41:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
39

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/02/2009 13:43:53
40 Hold up - the Council delivered it to the Court. It's their screw-up, not the Councils.

For once.
40

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 03/02/2009 13:46:19
#39 - Good grief. I'm embarrassed to share the same species as some of you Gnats, far less the same country. The thought of you ever running that country is frankly scary.

You make the Spanish Inquisition look open-minded and compassionate. An inclusive Scotland? Under you lot?
41

Astonished,

Inverclyde 03/02/2009 13:46:56
35 genghis - It was COUNCIL STAFF that oversaw the election - And I suspect that they tried to do it properly.

Only numpties (like yourself) do not want a full investigation. Labour rigging postal votes is nothing new.


Is vote-rigging another union dividend ?
42

ogram23,

03/02/2009 13:47:16
Probably nothing wrong with the election. But there is something terribly wrong with the system when records such as this can go missing. If it is the case that other records are missing we are in dire straits of election mismanagement. What is needed is an inventory of these type of records, where kept, security and responsibility. Only then where everything can be seen to be done can we call ourselves truely democratic.
43

Thistledhu,

03/02/2009 13:50:17
Observer,, 29 SNP controlled yes but you forget elected members ie councilers arent allowed anywhere near the voteing system.

i am not convinced either way but lets remember that councils for years were labour strongholds old loyalties die hard (and many favours still owed)

it is not the abilty to rig elections that is in doubt its the willingness.

at present the only way of ensureing that this dosent are has not happend is to be able to audit Elections.

Alarm bells ring when any form of audit is prevented
44

The Master,

03/02/2009 13:50:19
Anyone who's ever worked in an office knows that files etc go missing all the time.

If you're a Nat, of course, it's all a "unionist" conspiracy and just proves that "we was robbed". How sad for the culty movement that this is their knee jerk reaction.
45

,

03/02/2009 13:51:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
46

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 03/02/2009 13:51:48
#42 - Hold up again. The Scottish Courts are run by the Scottish Government, and the Scottish Government is? You've guessed it, an SNP Government.

Labour currently has no more power over Scottish Courts than it does over the Council who ran the Glenrothes bye-election.

Whether foul-up or conspiracy (and most sane commentators, which of course excludes almost all Gnats, would go for the former), this one is entirely the SNP's foul-up/conspiracy, though no-one appears to have told Tricia Marwick MSP, never exactly the sharpest card anyway in admittedly a pretty blunt pack.
47

Boab1,

03/02/2009 13:53:36
I would imagine the problem is innocent enough. What puzzles me is how the polling agencies got it so wrong. Even more so is how the people on the ground at the count got it so wrong. How can Labour think it was too close to call then come away with a 6,000 majority? The people at the scene normally call it right so this seems very strange.

I hope we haven't degenerated (any further) towards Zimbabwe levels of democracy.
48

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/02/2009 13:56:14
This thread has been useful in demonstrating that the following posters have no capacity to understand the electoral process and can therefore be safely ignored when they pass opinion on said process:

#11 Thistledhu - "the legitimicy of the result is in seriouse doubt until these registers are found". No, since the count was done openly, and the ballot papers remain in existence, the legitimacy of the result is without question.

#13 Newtyle Railway - "I always suspected that Labour had fixed it and this would seem to prove it". There is simply no way that the marked register going missing *after* having been handed in to the court proves anything of the sort.

#15 ZipptJeffrey - "This is electoral fraud out in the open". No, it isn't. This is no evidence of any fraud whatsoever.

#21 Arfur - "I think most folk figured that Labour had fudged this". No. In fact, only the most rabid Nats even suggested it, since the election was open, free and fair.

#26 Number 6 - "It was fairly obvious that something 'Fishy' had occured when Labour actually had an election victory". Pure arrogance. Labour hold one fewer seat in the Parliament than the SNP. As ever, you talk like the last election was a landslide - it was the narrowest Scottish election *ever*.
49

The Scotchman,

03/02/2009 13:56:20
This was ay' rigged. Nae wan voted for Paul O'Grady's twin. Him and Maggie got aw' the bairns at their KHS High to rig the votes man.
50

Brian Hill,

03/02/2009 13:56:54
Following the story in the Scotsman on January 14th this year:

http://news.scotsman.com/politics/Tory-candidate-accused-of-trying.4876278.jp

about the Tory candidate who attempted to rig an election using spurious postal votes I would have thought it was in the Labour Party's interest to get these records back so that the opposition can check that this spectacular Labour victory which caught everyone by surprise (including themselves)was completely above board.

A spokesman for the Scottish Court Service said:
"We can confirm that the Sheriff Clerk at Kirkcaldy Sheriff Court took receipt of these items....

"This is deeply regrettable and we are investigating the circumstances relating to this loss."

No it's not 'regrettable' it's criminal. Jobs should go and charges should be preferred where appropriate. that would soon jog people's memory.

The name Scotland and Banana Republic should never be used in the same sentence.....on the other hand...


51

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/02/2009 13:57:15
49 - 47 The Master is right. This is a case of missing files. They will turn up. There is no conspiracy. There may be a legitimate question about the number of postal votes, but that stands on it's own. I imagine they will be feverishly searching as we speak......
52

Tris,

03/02/2009 14:00:52
#22 - You'll be a Gnat then. Can't remember the same concern for "democracy" when your lot sneaked a SP election on the basis of a load of Labour ballot boxes from the seat which would have swung it the other way being swept overboard. Whining hypocrites

***********************

Well, I'm not sure what that was all about, but I assure you I'd be up in arms at any electoral malfeasance, no matter from which quarter.

The truth is that even as the polls closed, Labour ministers were thinking that they'd lost, and then, to everyone's suprise, they won.

Additionally, whilst it may be true that in certain things there is a slap dash attitude to security in local authorities, this is a matter of secure electoral information being delivered to the Sheriff Court. Are they sloppy too?
53

Thistledhu,

03/02/2009 14:01:30
51Duncan in Edinburgh; the law requires that the amount of votes balloted matches the amount of people who actualy voted its not much to ask is it?
54

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 03/02/2009 14:01:38
#44 - So what are you saying now? A few posts ago the Gnat orthodoxy was that the Glenrothes result was election-rigging by Labour. Having had it pointed out to you that not only the Council which ran the election but also the Scottish Courts which appear to have lost the records are in fact SNP-controlled, you appear to have exonerated them of blame and are now fingering Council workers.

So was it an honest mistake by some ordinary joes who appear to have misplaced some papers? Or were the Council and Courts infiltrated by thousands of Labour quislings? What misdeeds exactly are you alleging now and by whom?

By all means have a full investigation, as the only possible outcome is that an SNP Council or an SNP Scottish Government or both are either corrupt or incompetent or both. The one clear fact is that whetever happened or did not happen, Labour could have had nowt to do with it. Being out of power does have some advantages.
55

Thistledhu,

03/02/2009 14:02:42
thats why the registers are retained
56

,

03/02/2009 14:03:06
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
57

TWC,

03/02/2009 14:03:10
47 The Master/Obs,
I agree the record will be found and then the Postal voting can be seen as accurate and it will pass, but they should never have been lost.
If we'd lost them in my office somebody would have been disciplined because the Audit trail should be unbroken.
58

Lianachan,

Highlands 03/02/2009 14:04:18
#46 "Alarm bells ring when any form of audit is prevented"
and
#48 "Labour's remarks give the impression that they have something to hide"

Couldn't agree more with those statements.
59

,

03/02/2009 14:04:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
60

Thistledhu,

03/02/2009 14:04:59
Ghengis McCann i work for a local authority and just to dispel a myth the elected members ie councilers have little to none input of the day to day running of councils
61

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 03/02/2009 14:07:23
Duncan in Edinburgfh - welcome to the thread and thanks for some hard-headed sense at last. The gist of the Gnat comments here seems to be that the Glenrothes election can't have been fair because the SNP didn't win.

The customary terminal arrogance displayed by King Smug and his zealot band of Gnats is never a pretty sight but they have surpassed themselves today.
62

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/02/2009 14:07:46
61 I would imagine that someone will be disciplined. But as these records are important I hope they get their fingers out and find them first before summoning the firing squad....
63

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 03/02/2009 14:07:55
You'll never see free and fair elections under Brown; he's a spineless unelected coward of a prime minister. My money is on a forced election on the last legal date: 10.06.10
64

MoClana,

03/02/2009 14:09:56
I posted on here after the Glenrothes by election as the result appeared to contradict all ground work canvassing by both SNP and Labour.

Both parties knew the result was going to be close, approx 500 either way, possibly 1000. Entering the result SNP exit polls showed them winning the seat by the projected margins.

Then within 15 mins the result has been a landslide Labour victory ? no one could understand the maths involved...untill they reconciled the postal votes.

In 2005 approx 1000 people cast the votes by post, however this had mushroomed to 8000 in the by election? Nobody was sure how or why. Therefore going on the evidence of intended polling on the ground, all 7000 extra postal votes must have been for Labour!!

Labours majority was..you guessed it 7000 !!

As usual , the labour lap dugs were saying it was ' sour grapes by the nasty nats' . In fact it was a clear case of democracy being undermined by a desperate UK goverment silencing the true voice of the people of Glenrothes and Scotland

And now....all voter registers are missing !!!! Shame on Labour and any self respecting Unionist. This was not democracy, this was disgusting manipulation of the postal votes system and would have made Robert Mugabe blush.

The morning after Glenrothes was a very black day for democracy in Scotland

Saor Alba
65

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 03/02/2009 14:14:26
That's a pretty big file to go "missing."
The election that defied the odds and saved Broon's @ss and suddenly nobody can prove the voters list was legit?
Give me a break.
All that's missing is for Gordo to do a Nixon.
How did that go again? Oh ya.
"I am not a crook."
There's no choice in the matter.
Time for a re-do.
66

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 03/02/2009 14:15:15
#66 - So you are saying that even if Labour had been in power in Fife, all the hubris from you and your Gnat pals would have been entirely misplaced? In other words, you are simply sore losers making mischief?

I am willing to bet that I have been at many more election night counts than you have have. And just to dispel another myth, experienced Party activists can easily tell whether there have been any shenanigens.

The Gnats were well represented at the Glenrothes count and although they didn't like the result, they saw nothing untoward with the conduct of the count or the voting patterns. If it had been otherwise, they would have whined plenty at the time.

The SNP were largely victims of their own publicity in Glenrothes and were well gubbed. Pity they can't get over it, but it really wasn't such a surprise given their wafer-thin SP win in May 2007. They are only in power by virtue of a handful of well-placed Scottish votes, so their bye-election bandwagon was always going to founder on the rocks of reality sooner or later.
67

Kenny,,

Glasgow 03/02/2009 14:15:34
To say its an SNP run authority is correct in as much asd the SNP is the lead party in a coalition.

I think you'll find despite changes in government at national and local level, public life is stilled riddled with labourites who put the party before all other considerations. Their hold on power is under threat as never before and who knows what tricks they will get up to retain what they have or regain what they've lost.
68

AJ Fife,

03/02/2009 14:17:37
The 'creeping hand' of Gordon Brown gets everywhere!
69

Thistledhu,

03/02/2009 14:23:15
Ghengis McCann for one i am not a nationlist.

the actual count is not the point of concern here in case you havent noticed its the fact that at the moment no one can confirm that the votes casted were from legit voters
70

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 03/02/2009 14:25:07
Labour did play very dirty during the Glenrothes campaign but I don't think the law was broken deliberately. A number of factors led to the surprise Labour victory, some of which were beyond the nats control.

When the two main candidates are quite weak, when the mud flies in all direction, then voters, like the Holyrood speaker, tend to opt for the status quo. Labour fought a brilliant spoiling campaign, but it will be difficult to pull it off again as the SNP have learned a lot.

Having said that, the missing papers need to be found to clear this up - has the news reached darkest Glenrothes yet?
71

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 03/02/2009 14:25:55
#70 - Nothing sinister there. The reason why the proportion of Postal Votes has increased at all elections is because the rules have changed and any voter can now have one. The proportion of voters choosing to do so has been steadily growing over several elections.

All the main Parties run campaigns to get their core vote to register for Postal Votes, as postal voters are more likely to vote. Maybe the SNP does as well, I don't know. If not they missed a trick.

But no mystery - the ballot papers have not been destroyed, it would be perfectly possible to use these to create another marked up register, it would be perfectly possible to re-examine the Postal Votes.

Parties' own canvass returns are notoriously unreliable (voters just don't tell the truth on the doorstep, for all sorts of reasons) so a discrepancy between what the Gnats expected and what they got was perfectly possible.

Voters choosing to reject the SNP may be a black day for the SNP but it is hardly a black day for democracy. A case of the people have spoken, and said no quite loudly to you lot. Get over it - democracy does not consist of re-running votes over and over until it eventually goes your way.
72

Tris,

03/02/2009 14:26:43
#58.

First of all, whoever is responsible, the loss of these papers is serious.

You seem to be suggesting that the sheriffs, management and staff at the Sheriff Court, because there is an SNP government, have all become SNP supporters, which, I'm sure, if you give it just a little more thought, even you will realise is a little far fetched.

The truth of the matter is that these important papers can be traced to the Sheriff Court, and no farther. They may have been lost in there, or they have been hidden, or they may have been destroyed.

I don't know what they look like, or how big they are, but I'm wondering how the entire records of an election could be mislaid by carelessness.

As was said early on in these discussions, this goes way above party politics. It hits at what our elections are all about. If, as you seem to suggest, the SNP goivernment ordered the SNP-controlled sheriff to order his SNP-controlled managers to order his SNP-controlled staff to lose the papers, then that too needs to be examinmed, exposed and expunged.

Although, I would have to say, it would seem a tad silly to ask to see something that we knew had been lost or destroyed at our orders, thereby draqwing attnetion to it. Clearly with that kind of power the SNP could have simply fixed the election, and won it. Further there is hardly a need to invent Labour sleaze as it flies off the pages of every newspaper in the country on a daily basis.
73

MoClana,

03/02/2009 14:27:08
Ghengis McCann can rubbish the facts all he likes

Untill he looks at the numbers and can explain how all 7000 extra postal votes seemingly were in favour of Labour, then his arguument is irrelevant.

1 + 1 = 2

But in Labours world :

1+1 = 7000 !!!!!!

Defending such action is deplorable.

Saor Alba
74

Gussie Fink-Nottle,

03/02/2009 14:28:55
#40 Haw bawheid, what part of Scottish Court Service do you not understand? Are you seriously suggesting that the SNP taking a leaf from the 'Bumper Book of Labour Devious Ploys and Shifty Stunts.' Decided to deliberately lose the marked register and then blame Labour. Good Crieff man, what colour is the sky in your world?
75

pehman,

sussex 03/02/2009 14:32:40
From the article;-

But the spokesman hit out: "It's like an extreme case of sour grapes and dirty tricks rolled into one.

"Lindsay Roy won the by-election because of the incompetence of the SNP locally and nationally. The ballot papers were counted fair and square in front of the eyes of the world."

It seems like the spokesman knows there's something to hide, unless of course he's in politics and doesn't know the difference between ballot papers and the marked up register
76

anydry,

Kingdom o Fife 03/02/2009 14:32:45
Before the Conspiracy theorists run awa with themselves; The story clearly says that the documents went astray in the care of the Sheriffs Court.

So the SNP led Council are in the clear!!!

The Courts are no run by the Govt in Edinburgh. I believe that the Sheriff Courts are administered by the Scottish Court Service (SCS) which is an Executive Agency of Scottish Government. So there is a long pole between any Minister and the Courts.

Now if folk want a conspiracy, and there are those that always do, try the Gordon Brown Constituency Office, which is 150mts from the Court, but even I dinnie believe that one!!!

The register is an important part of the democratic process that allows candidates and parties to verify the process.
- The register is missing.
- Who ever won or lost would be looking for a copy of it.
- Why was it the SNP were the ones who found out it was missing?
- Did anybody else know it was missing?
- When was it discovered that it was awa?
- Has anybody been given a copy, before it vanished?

- There should be an independant inquiry and if it is just a silly mistake then so be it, lessons will be learnt!

The rest is all just talk.
77

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 03/02/2009 14:33:37
82 Reason and common sense are not easy bed fellows for Ghengis.
78

Thistledhu,

03/02/2009 14:33:47
Ghengis McCann you know you cant produce a marked up register from the votes balloted its a secret vote remember!!!
79

John S,

03/02/2009 14:34:06
Under the present electoral arrangements, certain papers including voting papers and a copy of the marked electoral register are to be kept by the sheriff clerk for that electoral area for a year after an election.
80

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 03/02/2009 14:34:16
#76 - It is not in the least fishy. The Gnats overplayed their hand, overestimated their popularity, underestimated their opposition, and got turned over by a more experienced campaign team who understood that the only voters who count are the ones who actually vote.

#77 - No, I'm sure you're not a Gnat troll, you'll just be a "concerned neutral" or something. Accept my apologies. Any yes they can confirm the votes were legitimate, the actual ballot papers have not yet been destroyed.

#78 - Labour will take no lectures from the SNP on dirty campaigning. The Gnats wrote the dirty tricks manual. More sour grapes from a Party which thinks it has an infallible right to win anything it chooses to contest. Well, politics doesn't work like that.
81

Thistledhu,

03/02/2009 14:35:58
anydry, i find it very hard to argue with you logic
82

Nevsky;,

Moscow 03/02/2009 14:36:02
Legal officers do not lose records or misplace them!
83

MoClana,

03/02/2009 14:37:57
#70 Ghengis McCann - Have you not read the story? All registers are misisng, there is no trace on the postal votes.

As for canvassing being unrealible, this is not the case in modern by election campaigns, the exact same sampling, canvassing, door knocking, telephoning and campaigning was executed in Glasgow East, and the result was by enlarge the projected margins - 500 + win for SNP


Transfer these methods to a much smaller population in Glenrothes and both SNP and Labour would have been able to get an even closer picture of their return at the polls, what they can not forcast is the postal votes.

Again 1000 in 2005, 8000 in 2008. Yes postal votes are being actively encouraged....but to suggest all 7000 extra votes were all Labour is farcical.

Further, there is no other place in the whole of the UK which has recorded a 800% increase in postal ballots. .....lets say that again 800% !!!

Saor Alba

84

Thistledhu,

03/02/2009 14:40:13
without the register the retained ballot papers are worthless
85

anydry,

Kingdom o Fife 03/02/2009 14:42:16
Folks,

The Postal Vote numbers are a red herring....

There has been a steady increase all across Fife in the #'s of Postal voters for the last few years.

There are about 25k registered postal voters in Fife. divided across four Westminster constituencies thats about 8.25k each!



86

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 03/02/2009 14:43:16
#82 - You really are quite mad, you know.

#84 - If there is a long pole (and in Government the general principle is that the man at the top takes the blame for the failings of subordinates), then it is the same long pole which separates Labour from any of this.

#85 - I am making a lot more sense than the furiously back-pedalling Gnats on this thread. But then, I know what I am talking about and they clearly do not. They prefer the Salmond school of debating - if you don't have an answer, just shout names at your adversary.

#86 - The ballot papers are numbered.

Admit it, Gnats - you went off half-cocked on this issue and have been furiously - and unconvincingly - retracing your steps or trying to divert the argument ever since you realised that you had opened fire on your own side.
87

Rufus-T-Firefly,

03/02/2009 14:43:25
.....................................................................................................................................................................................SNP<=======BADLOSERS........................................................................................................................................................................................
88

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 03/02/2009 14:45:14
Hold on, maybe everybody is right:

1) The election was rigged (to produce a small Labour majority).

2) But Labour really won - so there was no need to rig it after all.

That would certainly explain the surprisingly big Labour majority? Ha Ha.

Nah - the most likely explanation is that a large number of voters just swung in the wind like they always do.
89

MoClana,

03/02/2009 14:52:25
...................................................................................................................RUFUS T FIREFLY------UNIONIST LABOUR GIMP ...................................................................................................................
90

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 03/02/2009 14:52:48
#93 - Nah, fun though it is to bandy words with you CyberGnats from time to time (and there are a lot of you, you seem to pop out of the woodwork with your daft theories and claims), you are a bit like your man Salmond at Holyrood. You shout a lot, but no-one is really listening too closely. In office but not in power, as they say.

It won't be Labour who have to bother with rebuttal, I suggest. It will be the Gnats when it is pointed out that not only was the whole Glenrothes electoral process including the Postal Votes administed by an SNP-run Council but that an Executive Agency of Wee Eck's SNP-run Scottish Government was responsible for the retention of the records.

Them's the facts and facts, as you Sour Alba crowd are so fond of pointing out to us Unionist Traitors and Scots of a Lesser God, are chiels that jist winna ding.

Must dash. Reality calls.
91

Tris,

03/02/2009 14:54:05
#91. Excellent post. I have long thought that it was amazing that the number of postal votes had increased by so large a number, but had thought that, if it were suspicious to more educated and experienced minds than mine, some action would have been taken.

It appears now that some action was taken, but to no avail.
92

Cringing Jock,

Glasgow 03/02/2009 14:57:32
What if the SNP had won the Glenrothes by-election and the records went missing?
New Labour and their “attack dog” the Daily Record would have went ballistic!

93

Ronaldinho Glavin,

03/02/2009 14:59:01
The only rigging that took place at Glenrothes was the desperate attempt by the SNP to rig the bookies odds to create an illusion of momentum. Pretty desperate stuff.

94

Ronaldinho Glavin,

03/02/2009 15:01:51
As for #91 on canvassing.

Experienced canvassers and sensible parties know that canvassing is only good for telling you what % share your party will get.

It is utterly hopeless at telling you other parties shares as people simply don't want to tell you that they are not voting for you.

95

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 03/02/2009 15:02:29
You can tell by the level of nastiness that the unionist trolls are rattled. I don't blame them:

1) IMF predicts that the UK will be the worst hit country in this recession - figures are far worse than expected.

2) Labour way behind in recent opinion polls (north and south of the border). The "Brown Bounce" is already history.

3) Ian Gray makes a complete hash of the Scottish budget and effectively puts jobs on the line, much to the annoyance of the general public.

4) Bulldog Brown's "British jobs for British workers" soundbite comes back to haunt him big time.

5) Doubts arise about the validity of the Glenrothes byelection result. Vital evidence lost.

It's not been a good week, has it?
96

Stuntman Mike,

03/02/2009 15:03:24
You raving Nats not got this thread closed down yet?

I just hope someone doesn't come on and utter the words "McCrone" or "Iraq", then we'd know all about just how nutty Natz can get LMAO
97

Beachcomber,

Edinburgh 03/02/2009 15:06:25
#23 Ghengis - Labour are squeaky clean and you know it.. Just read the articles below.. proof enough me thinks..


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article517416.ece

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/4310965.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/4306285.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/3797685.stm
98

anydry,

Kingdom o fife 03/02/2009 15:06:47
#102

I think you will find that the bookies had set the odds before any campaign started, so stung were they in Glasgow.

Odds of 1-4 with a sitting Labour majority of 10,500 were stupid odds.

Some 'posters' are getting carried away.

Documents are missing.
An inquiry is required.
Who ever discovered them missing is doing us all a favour.

A conspiracy too far "the SNP control the bookies".

99

IanAyr,

Ayr 03/02/2009 15:13:27
Labour is totally honest and trustworthy, Aye Right.

Remember "British Jobs for British Workers"

Good Ol' Gordon will take care of it, in the same manner he looks after all the interests of Scotland.
100

MoClana,

03/02/2009 15:13:47
Tris - on the morning after the resuult, Alex Salmond made the comment that the result was ' remarkable' (toungue in cheek) .

Knowing fine well that Labour had been up to their old tricks but at the same time not wanting to fall into the Unionist trap of appearing the bad loser (especially in the eyes of the Brittish press)the SNP quietly went about the business of wanting to establish the numbers for them selves.

They requested this in Nov and only now have been told the file is 'lost'.

If the SNP had genuinely fallen at Glenrothes, given the size of the Labour 'win', Whitehall would have ragged dolled and ridiculed the SNP for as long as they could, but strangley their response was rather mute and they didnt seem to want to get mileage out of their 'shock' result....why? I dont remember Brown making a single comment on the result, why, when he was on the ropes did he not associate himself with the result....?

Here was Browns chance to be seen as the victor agasint all odds, but instead he left it to Jim Murphy to speak to the press? (and insult our neighbouring countries Ireland and Iceland in the process)

Saor Alba



101

bumpkin,

03/02/2009 15:15:01
we shouldnt under estimate the activities of the uk secret service, who dont want the uk broken up, nor the american cia who need their strong ally this side of the pond.not to mention labour chicanery
102

Beachcomber,

Edinburgh 03/02/2009 15:15:45
#32 Relugas Road, 140.000 spoilt papers.. and who supplied the scanners etc.. Oh yes I remember Neil Kinnock and Gutless Alexander.. Was there really 140.000 votes spoilt? I personally dont think so.

Laybore are the most untrustworthy government the UK has had the misfortune to have had..

Herr Mandelson - twice was 'sacked'
Now back and running the show (cause Gordy Broon is clueless)alledgedly bordering on the insane.

Check out post#23 to see exactly Laybore get up too.
103

MoClana,

03/02/2009 15:21:50
# 104 - inernal polling takes % over the total polled, therefore projecting your share of the over all vote.

As i have said, SNP internall polling showed a narrow victory over a previous 10k Labour majority.

Whats your point? you have repeated the previous weak repsonses to the result by other Unionists, but not actually quantified anything.
104

Thomas79,

Ayrshire 03/02/2009 15:25:22
Ghengis McCann
You need to calm down. The SNP are simply asking for an investigation to take place, as its rather important data. I'm sure no-one seriously thinks Labour would do something so sinister or legally questionable. But it says something about their standing when, I suspect, most people think of the Labour party when things go missing, even when the SNP run the local council.
105

Gussie Fink-Nottle,

03/02/2009 15:27:12
# 99 Poor Genghis Makhun't has a habit of running away when under pressure. Does that remind us of anyone else?

Oddly enough our resident dribbler Rufus 2Fly posted only once in the same period and that looked like a malfunction in the user keyboard department.
106

DouglasT,

03/02/2009 15:31:16
This missing register business is just a tad worrying.
Can anyone tell me for how long these registers must be kept - I'm wondering if any previous registers for this constituency should still be in existence and, if so, have they also been lost or is it just this one election whose result surprised a lot of people.

My first thoughts on reading about this went to FOI; just prior to Freedom of Information being introduced, the Westminster government instigated a mass document shredding exercise. Mayor of London Livingston went on a similar shredding spree. And, perhaps more relevant, is the infamous Birmingham bye-election where the Labour Party organised “massive, corrupt and illegal fraud” in which nearly 3,000 votes were “stolen”.

One Birmingham postman was offered £500 and threatened with death unless he handed over a sack of blank ballots (he took the money).

Voters who failed to vote Labour had their choices removed by correction fluid and 'corrected'.

Small boys were recruited to nick ballots sticking out of letter boxes.

“Short of writing ‘steal me’ on the envelopes,” said high court judge Richard Mawrey QC, “it is hard to see what more could be done to ensure their coming into the wrong hands”.

Applications for postal votes continue to be handled by political parties after the (Labour) government blocked efforts by the Electoral Commission to prevent further fraud at the general election
107

John S,

03/02/2009 15:38:48
#120:DouglasT.Can anyone tell me for how long these registers must be kept ?
Under the present electoral arrangements, certain papers including voting papers and a copy of the marked electoral register are to be kept by the sheriff clerk for that electoral area for a year after an election.
108

MoClana,

03/02/2009 15:39:05
#120 Douglas - there is history here with Labour, of that there is no doubt, the stakes are even higher when the UK premier is down double digits in the polls, losing seats in Labour heartlands like Glasgow East, bracing themselves for economic catastrophe, swaping the standards commision with sleaze after sleaze revelation, from Wendy Alexander , Peter Hain to the house of Lords.

Lets be clear, if Brown lost in his own back yard he would have been finished. Instead he was prepared to kill the democratic process, something which people all over the world stand and die for each and every day, Brown took this right away from the people of Glenrothes and Scotland.

Saor Alba

109

Economic Exile,

Perth, Western Australia 03/02/2009 15:39:55

Judging by the photo Lindsay Roy looks like a decent enough bloke. Not sure about the two red rosetted "heavies" behind him though!! With facial expressions like that you'd think they were all waiting for someone to bring the body in rather than celebrate an election victory! Reminds me of comedians Hale and Pace's bouncers and representatives of the "The Management"
110

Gussie Fink-Nottle,

03/02/2009 15:44:41
#120 Ah DouglasT, that was when Mr Mawley found six Labour councillors from two Birmingham wards guilty of electoral fraud following the 2004 local elections in Birmingham.

Yep, the stench of sleaze, corruption, badgers and electoral fraud never falls far from the Labour snout.
111

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 03/02/2009 15:45:15
Given that there is so much now at stake (the future of Scotland and the UK, no less), all Scottish elections should now have international monitors. It may be difficult for British pride to swallow, but it is more important than ever that everything is seen to be above board.
112

tartan army 2222,

03/02/2009 15:48:55
#9 and #12

This is not sour grapes. Any party worth its salt will request these registers - note the lack of such a request from the Labour Party. These registers are routinely asked for by SNP groups up and down the country. They are an aid to electioneering. For example, if you have the registers for the last 10 elections you can figure out who never votes - no reason to knock their door. The fact that the Labour Party seem not to use them says much about their lack of basic electioneering skills and the SNP's request for them says much about their advanced electioneering skills.
113

TWC,

03/02/2009 15:49:30
ah bu66er it let's re run the election.

I've been re reading the posts and the nats are convinced that they've been cheated and GhenMcCann just hates the Gnats as he calls them, to the point where he is irrational.
He is going on about it so much even I am getting supicious. Maybe the Nats were cheated and all these postal vote records have been shredded like they did in the Watergate scandal.
Let's just find the papers.
114

Rodster,

Glasgow 03/02/2009 15:51:36
Could the Labour Party with the aid of the UK Spooks rig an election??
Did Dr David Kelly commit suicide or was it a"assisted death?"

What do you think???
I know what I think!
At the election in 2007 look at the results there were swings all over the place to the SNP the seats that were won FPTP were ones already held in Westminster and or Holyrood .
Govan it was a certainty even Labour could not fiddle that one .
The seats won by the SNP were all surprise ones Kenny Macaskill Argyll and Bute etc .
Funny that the only seats that did not suffer the same swings everywhere else in Scotland were the vulnerable seats expected to fall to the SNP like Cumbernauld , Kilmarnock , a few of the Glagow seats remember MacNeil and her outburst???
Would love to see the evidence in all those seats.
We even had ballot boxes falling of the ship bringing them over from Arran or Millport I believe yet SNP still managed to win .
150,000 spoiled ballot papers.
Ouyr democracy is being stolen .
115

,

03/02/2009 15:52:40
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
116

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 03/02/2009 15:53:12
It beggars belief that the Labour spokesman can be so dismissive. Something odd happened at Glenrothes. We really need to find these records.
117

Dekester,

Canada's westcoast 03/02/2009 16:06:30
This really is all very sad. Scotland was once seen as a bastion of much that is good. What is going on in the country of my birth is nothing short of criminal.

The record of labour and it's trail of deceit and lies beggars belief. The countries elections are run like a banana republic.

Without any humour being intended. Scots should be looking at independent observers at their polling stations. Labour, as those that so desperately cling to the broken union. WILL DO ANYTHING to maintain the status quo.

Scotland for goodness sake smarten up.

Labour has consistently deceived.

All the best
118

TWC,

03/02/2009 16:09:45
132 Dekester
Independent Observers? perhaps we should do that if these papers really are missing.
119

PMK,

03/02/2009 16:12:25
#5, no they are not out there in the criminal world. They were 'accidentally' on-purpose shreaded, or at least that is what the BBC version of this story seems to imply.

"The ballot papers were counted fair and square in front of the eyes of the world."
-Scottish Labour spokesman

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2331951.stm
"Saddam wins 100% support"

& lets not forget Labour themselves have form in electoral fraud,

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article377468.ece

The biggest worry has always been postal ballots which increased hugely for the Glenrothes by-election,

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04/28/rowntree_election_failings/
120

lulach mac gille coemgain,

03/02/2009 16:13:24
re-election!
121

Grahamski,

Falkirk 03/02/2009 16:19:36
How funny is this? An SNP-controlled council and an SNP-controlled government agency misplace some documents and the nutty nats go ape!
Out comes the spittle-flecked invective...the more the mask slips the better it is for Scotland as this sect reveal itself as the delusional, grievance-fuelled bigots that they are. The SNP failing to control their bile and appear balanced again.
Still, it must be tough for them and until they get a grip of that fantasist Mr Salmond with his outlandish boasts and downright lies it will be difficult for them to give the impression of stability, eh?
In the meantime sit back and enjoy the rantings of the semi-detached and bewildered of the nationalist movement.....
122

MoClana,

03/02/2009 16:19:51
One thing is a certainty. When this is all over, when Labour are no more, Scottish Independence or not, Labour will have banished themsleves from Scottish politics for at least 20 years, much as the conservative party did.

I predict in 10 years time, if we are not already independent, Labour support will be a rump of around 10-15% of the Scottish Vote
123

Gtj,

03/02/2009 16:21:16
Is there no limit to Labours corruption.
124

Grahamski,

Falkirk 03/02/2009 16:21:20
136
Huh?
Taxi for Icke.......
125

Rodster,

Glasgow 03/02/2009 16:21:53
#136 Absolutely correct Spook till your last sentence


Labour rigged this election and they WILL be found out.
I doubt it , and even if they did some obscure Westminster rule would be invoked no wrong doing or no censures in place .
The British Establishment never loses
126

Eve,

Scotland 03/02/2009 16:22:02
"But a Scottish Labour spokesman accused the Nationalists of "sour grapes"

The spokesman described the loss of the registers as "clearly very worrying" and said Holyrood justice secretary Kenny MacAskill should "carry out an investigation into why an SNP government department has lost confidential personal data again".

But the spokesman hit out: "It's like an extreme case of sour grapes and dirty tricks rolled into one."

1st point: Whats way all the BUT's? The but in the 3rd pargraph makes it sound like it's a diffrent spokesman BUT the both sound like labour party ones.


I'm confused how it's Kenny McAskills falt that records have went missing. Surely it's the person incharge of either getting register to Kirkcaldy Sheriff Court or incharged of filling/ storge of important docs.
127

Nevsky;,

Moscow 03/02/2009 16:22:14
13 PMK#

You are right, postal ballots were the key issue. You can canvass all you like but i do not recall any by-election which shifted what would have seem to have been the accepted result.

The postal ballot was over three times what is normal in elections and look at the numbers for Glasgow...2000 or so i believe compared with 7000 for Glenrothes which is unusualy high to say the least.

Howeverer, postal votes have no checks in place, they are opened and mixed with the ballot box papers..once opened they are gone for good!

128

,

03/02/2009 16:23:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
129

MoClana,

03/02/2009 16:24:01
137 # Grahamski - please dont talk tripe, how is the Sherriff Clerk office controlled by the SNP?

Lone litle voice you are !
130

Shredder,

03/02/2009 16:24:03
#138 " predict in 10 years time, if we are not already independent, Labour support will be a rump of around 10-15% of the Scottish Vote"

They'll be a bit like the Nats until relatively recently and Scottish voters will have turned to the Tories and their tartan counterparts and completely abandoned their long love affair with that big bad Labour Party then!
131

Grahamski,

Falkirk 03/02/2009 16:24:40
144
I think you just have.....d'oh!
132

Rodster,

Glasgow 03/02/2009 16:25:07
Over the years those of us actively involved in Politics could tell many tales that the average person in the UK would never believe about the British electoral system.
There was one time in a seat in West of Scotland during a GE when Brown was in town the SNP upstaged him and held a rally outside Labour Shop HQ with Brown inside Alex Salmond was there and the press were following him .
Brown was obviously very upset ,
The next day and for the rest of the election the SNP constituency Chairman and several of the branch members were stopped by Glasgow's finest and breathalised several times
133

Thistledhu,

03/02/2009 16:25:54
Ghengis McCann are you seriousley suggesting the principle of the secret ballot be comprimised to avoid discomfort for a political party!!
134

Miss H,

03/02/2009 16:26:38
23 This has never happpened before and it was not Fife Council that lost the data. Postal votes are counted separately. You do not see them at the verification count when the ballot boxes are opened.

Another couple of points I would make.

Nobody is calling for a re-run of the election or saying that Lindsay Roy’s election is in doubt. He was elected, the SNP did not challenge the result and that result stands. It’s not in question.

Everyone knows the stories that have gone around about the unusually high number of postal votes. Those are just rumours however and could be dispelled. It is in Labour’s interests - more than the SNP’s - to dispel those rumours. Unfortunately the fact that the only way of dispelling the rumours – doing a verification exercise using the information from the marked up registers – has been destroyed.

The Labour spokesperson is acting as Labour spokespeople do which is rather stupid in these circumstances. To say that the marked registers are provided for the convenience of political parties is classic doublespeak. Yes they are, but the marked registers are also necessary to demonstrate that fraud has not taken place.

However the comment from the Labour spokesperson that that Kenny MacAskill should "carry out an investigation into why an SNP government department has lost confidential personal data again" is encouraging on one level. OK, let’s do that.

Although maybe they should leave any announcement until after the Budget goes through tomorrow.
135

,

03/02/2009 16:27:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
136

Thistledhu,

03/02/2009 16:29:52
Cynicus in Exile i agree with you it should be in every political parties intrest for all elections to be transparent why are there activist on this forum downplaying this and turning it into a party political slanging match
137

MoClana,

03/02/2009 16:32:43
#148 - Shredder - Scotland has not always been a Labour Utopia, and once had a strong conservative support, untill they decided to lie, deceive and insult the Scots for 18 years....our response to that was to never forget, and even now the Tories despite propsering in England again..are still flatline at around 12% of the vote.

Once Labour lose power, and they will, their support will fragment to a core of around 10-15%, and we will never forget!!!
138

Nevsky;,

Moscow 03/02/2009 16:33:55
Sad to see unionists claiming this is sour grapes. If there are doubts then they should be looked into and let's be honest the 'clerk of the court' does not lose papers and is aware of the law.

You just don't throw papers out when the law states that they are kept for a year! It might have been an honest mistake by someone in the court but i do NOT believe that the 'clerk' could have made such a mistake!

On the other hand if a Labour Lord can try to burn down a hotel that refused him drink just what would the Labour party do if they were refused Glenrothes?
139

,

03/02/2009 16:34:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
140

Grahamski,

Falkirk 03/02/2009 16:35:36
158
Osama Saaed? Isn't he the the character who set up a Muslim Brotherhood-front organisation and mananged to take £400,000 of our money to host events with rabid anti-semites and holocaust deniers?
I think you'll find he is....maybe he could explain why a world-wide caliphate is such a good idea, eh
141

Eve,

Scotland 03/02/2009 16:35:36
#14 Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,: No, don't think so! I blieve it was Jim whats his name, that led the campaign with a wee had for this unknowen MP (PM) going by the name of Gorden "the control freak" Brown!

I don't really rember this linsey person saying much on the telly at the time.

I'd love to know how some can become a brilaint MP in just about 4months after being elected?

Could it be that he's briliant because he's a current member of thelabour party.
142

,

03/02/2009 16:36:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
143

Miss H,

03/02/2009 16:38:47
40 You are really thick. No-one is suggesting that the election was not run properly. I was there throughout and saw nothing to concern me.

The issue surrounds the postal votes – not the votes cast at polling stations.

There were certainly an unusually large number and if it is the case that they were almost all for Labour either that means that Labour ran an exceptionally good postal vote campaign or that they didn’t and something funny was going on. Labour have form on postal vote rigging, I take it you accept that, it is a matter of public record.

As I said earlier the easiest way to dispel rumours is to prove them wrong. It is now impossible to do that as we have no record of who voted so there can be no verification of whether those people knew that they had voted. That’s a serious situation and is made more so by the fact that according to the Courier the registers have been shredded not lost.

144

Dekester,

Canada's westcoast 03/02/2009 16:39:13
#133 TWC.

My comments were not only directed to the missing records.

My goodness Scotland was at the forefront of modern democracy. The American constitution, as well as much of Canada's early politics was influenced by Scots.

What you have now is a desperate party, and desperate people. As we all know desperate people will do near anything.

Imagine if the dreaded SNP folks, had a fraction of the proven record of fraud and deceit that the Labour party has.

All the best.
145

Grahamski,

Falkirk 03/02/2009 16:40:23
162
|Dear oh dear,
The SNP took a pasting at Glenrothes. They cocncentrated on getting their vote out and assumed (wrongly) that the Labour vote would stay at home. At the count it only became apparent when the counting started in earnest that not only the Labour vote came out but the tories and LibDems went with Labour in a concerted anti-SNP vote.
No wonder the nats are greetin.
By the way, isn' there a moon somewhere for you to howl at?
146

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 03/02/2009 16:41:55
Ghengis / Grahamski, The registers are required for a basic democratic check and balance against fraud.

It is vitally important that WE as Scots find out what has happened, because democracy is greater than two political parties you complete and utter numpties.
147

Miss H,

03/02/2009 16:42:31
47 I don't know what kind of office you work in but let me assure you that all of the marked up registers for a particular election have never been destroyed before. There has been one incident I am aware of in Renfrewshire where a number of polling districts went missing but we have never ever lost the whole register far less had it shredded.
148

,

03/02/2009 16:42:31
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
149

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 03/02/2009 16:44:27
168 Miss H I thought that legal permisson has to be sought before the registers can be shredded do you know is that the case?
150

Grahamski',

03/02/2009 16:44:49


OMG, the quicker I rub my thighs together the better I feel about Labour winning Glenrothes.


151

,

03/02/2009 16:44:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
152

,

03/02/2009 16:45:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
153

,

03/02/2009 16:46:02
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
154

Miss H,

03/02/2009 16:46:29
51 I am afraid Duncan that you are the one who does not understand how the electoral process works. No-one is questioning the number of votes counted or cast. The issue is who cast them? Without the marked up register there is no way to verify that the number of votes counted match the number of electors who voted and there is no way to verify that electors who are recorded as having voted did in fact vote.

155

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/02/2009 16:47:45
Do we KNOW that the registers have been shredded ? Losing them I can understand, but shreadding them I can't.
156

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 03/02/2009 16:47:51
Just an idle thought.
If it's a requirement to preserve the election documents for a year, you have assume it's a LEGAL requirement.
Therefore a law appears to have already been broken.
If it's just an unintentional whoops by a numpty bureaucrat that's one thing. A bollicking and a couple days off will suffice.
But if it was done deliberately and knowingly, that's a whole different ball of wax.
A law has been broken. And surely a crime committed.
So where are the Fife cops?
They should have that court sealed up like Guantanamo, yellow tape around the yellow tape, and a great, big get-to-the-bottom-of-it probe underway.
Isn't allegedly rigging an election a pretty big crime?
Even in Gordon Brown's Great England.
157

Grahamski,

Falkirk 03/02/2009 16:47:55
175
I really wouldn't highlight your pomposity if I were you. This is a mad-dog nat MSP howling lunatic conspiracy theories to cover up their election defeat. It is not important.
It just shows how much political debate in Scotland has deteriorated with the advent of an SNP administration. Petty and ill-informed perfectly desribes the grievance-fuelled bigotry which passes for political thought at the SNP HQ.
158

,

03/02/2009 16:48:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
159

Grahamski,

Fakirk 03/02/2009 16:50:16
182
Of course they don't know if they have been shredded, but who cares. This is a nat conspiracy frenzy - even although the responsibility lies with an SNP local and national administration it's not going to deflect the loonies having their say.
160

Miss H,

03/02/2009 16:51:12
79 says 'the ballot papers have not been destroyed, it would be perfectly possible to use these to create another marked up register'

Absolute rubbish. There is no conceivable way to 'create' another marked up register.

You really are an idiot.
161

Grahamski',

03/02/2009 16:52:11

I can't understand why the number of postal votes increased so markedly.


162

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/02/2009 16:52:16
184 Grahamski if these registers have been shredded (as opposed to temporarily lost) then that DOES matter. There is a legal requirement to keep them safely - that is why they are delivered to the court.
163

Grahamski',

03/02/2009 16:53:31


Labour would never commit election fraud, it's unheard of

164

LEAL,

03/02/2009 16:53:33
Of course there has to be a full enquiry.Even if the missing documents do turn up there has to be an enquiry into why they were unavailable for so long.Someone has said on here that the postal vote in Glenrothes saw an 8 fold increase between 2005 and 2008.What was the increase in the postal vote in Glasgow East between 2005 and 2008 (held during the Glasgow Fair)?If there was an equally large increase it will dispel some of the rigging theories.But an enquiry as to where the documents have been is still essential.
165

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 03/02/2009 16:54:07
I have a box of screenwipes here for all of you slavering CyberGnats. Your screens must by now be encrusted with flecks of spittle after the above barrage of hysterical rants. Unrelated innuendo, unsubstantiated smears and the usual crude anti-Labour insults have replaced rational debate or any serious attempt to address the facts.

Again - by all means let us have a full and frank enquiry into why the SNP-led Council responsible for the Glenrothes electoral process and an Executive Agency of the SNP-run Scottish Government between them managed to lose these records.

Amidst all the predictable Gnat grassy knoll conspiracy nonsense, what appears to be missing here is any plausible explanation of how Labour might have been able to spirit the offending records away from an SNP-controlled Council and a Scottish Government agency for which the SNP is responsible. Anyway, exactly what motive would Labour have for stealing the papers of an Election which the world and his dog saw them win on TV? The ballot may be secret but the count certainly is not.

And yes, Postal Votes are opened separately, but the Parties are allowed to be present to observe the process, and the votes themselves are generally counted at the main count. This thread contains far too many uninformed and inaccurate "facts" by persons who obviously do not know how much about an Election count is actually conducted. If they did, they would know how closely every stage is observed and how difficult fraud is.

No-one outwith the usual circle of rabid Gnat zealots gives a monkeys, by the way. The main reaction from the man or woman on the top of the 31 bus is "Yeah, yeah, they would say that, they lost". Joe MacPublic is quite capable of working out that however these records went missing, it was the SNP themselves who lost it between them somehow. Labour was nowhere in sight at the time.
166

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 03/02/2009 16:54:29
184 Grahamski you are wasted here, with your skills and talent I think you should volunteer to clear mind fields MANUALLY for the British Army.
167

Reiver,

Galashiels 03/02/2009 16:55:40
All rather convenient ... the SNP ask for something that isn't there and then they claim dirty tricks ... if one were even a little cynical one might be tempted to suggest that there were dirty tricks afoot and that it wasn't labour, the libDems or the Tories who were involved.

Anyone for yet another Scottish porky pie !!!
168

Marga,

Edinburgh 03/02/2009 16:56:07
A conspiracy too far - or maybe a grain of truth somewhere ...

I was leafleting in Glenrothes, and the candidate's wife commented on the rare sighting of Labour canvasers that day. Anyone on the ground could confirm the intensive tracking of everything that moved in the SNP campaigning office. Could they really have miscalled the result so very badly? Hard to believe.

Postal votes - I could be wrong, but seem to remember just after closing of postal voting, a couple of comments were published in the press about Labour excitement - I presume postal votes are counted ahead of the election. Anyway, nothing more was said - can noone else confirm that? Don't know the dates but it would be easy to find out.

Then all the caution expressed by Labour during the campaign would be a setup - highly unlikely but not impossible. Don't forget the inexplicably long delay in calling the date, and the fact that Mendelson was on board by then....
169

Rufus-T-Firefly,

03/02/2009 16:58:10
The SNP are so pathetic.

Running crying to mummy at every juncture.

If it is not whistleblower Angus MacNeil wasting public cash on Cash for Honours Police Complaints................

If it is not Dingbat SNP MSP Christine Grahame reporting Sir Fred Goodwin to Lothian and Borders Police....................

If it is not SNP Treasury spokesman Stewart Hosie calling for a police inquiry into the collapse of Farepak................................

If it is not Fruitloop SNP MSP Christine Grahame reporting Jim Murphy to FIFA....................

If it is not SNP researcher Mark Hirst, demanding a police investigation into the Wendy Alexander £950 donation.........................

And now they are demanding an enquiry into the Glenrothes Pounding.

What a PATHETIC, LAUGHABLE bunch of IDIOTS the SNP are.
170

Eve,

Scotland 03/02/2009 16:58:17
#170 Grahamski: The SNP gained a bigger percentage of the vote than they had before in the last few elections on that seat.

So I don't think they are greetin about the results. More likely looking at the result at many diffrent angles to find out plauseble soultions that will hopefully improve the results of their next election.

They asked to see the register to make sure the election was fair. They never claimed that the elcetion was not fair. Though they have good ground to be suspisious about the outcome of the election when a pies of information that should be avaible and isn't.

Please note: No one at this moment and time is that this election was fixed. But there is suspsion to why these records have disappeared. Also with there being dead people voting in the past, it doesn't heal suspsions.
171

IanAyr,

Ayr 03/02/2009 16:58:32
If the court can lose an important large bulky document like this, what else do they lose?
172

MoClana,

03/02/2009 16:59:35
#184 Grahamski -you and your Unionist freinds have offered no explantion to the facts mentioned previously.

- The discrepancy of 7000 postal votes?

- Why were all 7000 ballots seemingly for Labour?

- The contradiction to all external and internal? polling

- The fact Labours 'win' margin ' reconciles with the additional postal votes

- The missing voters records.

Labour have already came out fighting this...well, never believe anything untill its offically denied!

This story has made the news, radio and online media already, this will be very interesting !!!
173

Eve,

Scotland 03/02/2009 16:59:51
#191 Grahamski',03: Thats a joke!!!
174

Nevsky;,

Moscow 03/02/2009 17:01:32
171 Cynicus#

What is obvous from the thread is that unionists will accept any result under any circumstances for any party so long as it is not the SNP.

Everyone on this thread knows that something is just not right with Glenrothes, it went against the polls, it went against the Labour and the SNP canvassers predictions on the doorsteps, it went against the political pundits and it went against the people on the floor of the count!

Saying that this is sour grapes by the SNP is not the point, we all accept a democratic outcome and can continue to argue the political points, fair enough.

Not 1 unionist has said that missing registers in an election with an extremely dissproportionate postal turnout should is anything other than an SNP conspiracy theory.

This fact alone tells you all you need to now about the unionist position in Scotland..hatred of the SNP above everything else..including democracy!
175

,

03/02/2009 17:02:00
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
176

MoClana,

03/02/2009 17:04:18
#201 Rufus..ouch you sore on this one arent you, that was quite a dummy you spat there !!!

You wrote that piece with such passion, wee wendy and co. could have been your friends? maybe even fellow party members ?

Keep up the silly outbursts, Unionists like you are becoming an increasing minority and we need all the eejits like you to remind of just how poorly we have been treated in this Union.

Saor Alba
177

,

03/02/2009 17:04:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
178

Grahamski',

03/02/2009 17:05:32



Labour would never commit election fraud, would they?
179

Miss H,

03/02/2009 17:06:27
176 The suggestion is that they were accidentally shredded, By law they have to be kept for one year.
180

Stan Butler,

03/02/2009 17:09:15

Who is responsible for running these courts?

Big daft Kenny, that's who.

He must resign immediately.

Not only that, he should be made to pick up dog mess wearing a bright orange boiler suit. It's the only language people like him understand.
181

Nevsky;,

Moscow 03/02/2009 17:09:20
201 Rufus#

Lol..Rufus the pot noodle has had some hot water poured on him!

Great to seeyou concentrating on the important issues (as usual)!
182

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 03/02/2009 17:10:12
#168, Miss H - you do a good line in Gnat name-calling but I am afraid that you are the one revealing yourself as thick by your intemperate and inaccurate posts.

If the size of the Postal Vote was such a concern, why did the SNP not comment upon it, far less challenge it, at the time? During an Election all parties are sent lists of those votes registered as Postal Voters as part of their entitlement to the Electoral Register, so the SNP would know full well which 7,000 odd Glenrothes constituents were registered thus.

And as I said above, all Parties can watch the Postal Votes being opened, so they have a pretty good idea several days before the count of the volume, and if their activists are any good they will also have a pretty fair idea from the opening where the votes have gone.

So to suggest all these doubts about the Postal Vote process in Glenothes now is just Hubris - opportunistic, hypocritical hubris. This is an attempt by the SNP to whip up doubt in voters' minds about the legitimacy of their unexpected rejection by the voters of Glenrothes.

Sore losers seeking to deflect a bad result. Nothing more.
183

Miss H,

03/02/2009 17:11:17
185 I believe that most people who post here play no active part in politics and therefore have no idea of how serious this is.
184

Thistledhu,

03/02/2009 17:12:32
Ghengis McCann you seam to be changing your tack here.

but you are makeing the same mistake's regarding council so i will repeat it again local politicians have little to no influence on how a local authority does its day to day operational business. so it matters not who forms the ruleing party in this case.

at least you agree that there should be a full and open inquiry
185

Grahamski',

03/02/2009 17:12:47


I'm getting extremely concerned about this.

Does this mean that postal vote fraud is a possibility?

186

,

03/02/2009 17:14:16
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
187

Grahamski',

03/02/2009 17:14:20

I thought we stamped this out of the Labour Party

Labour election fraud ‘would disgrace a banana republic’

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article377468.ece
188

Miss H,

03/02/2009 17:15:53
222 No-one knew who would win - it was too close to call. Never mind whatever rubbish people said to the press either before or afterwards that was how it was. I personally thought we might lose by around 1000 votes, just a gut instinct, would not have been surprised by that, was surprised by the actual result - as was Labour.

I do not say - and neither does anyone in the SNP - that the election was 'stolen'. But there are questions about the postal votes which will never now be answered.
189

Nevsky;,

Moscow 03/02/2009 17:17:11
222 Cynicus#

It has nothing to do with THE victory it has everything to do with the scale and the way it came about.

If the SNP were predicted to lose and an unperecidented postal vote turned the result into a massive majority i would be suspicious yes!

The point about this is that Labour do not mobilise their support generally..the SNP do...look at Glasgow East.

Suddenly in Glenrothes the largest postal vote in Scottish history turns out and gives Labour a huge majority?

Really?
190

Rufus-T-Firefly,

03/02/2009 17:17:14
213 MoClana,03/02/2009 17:04:18
You wrote that piece with such passion, wee wendy and co. could have been your friends?
=======================================================

Passion???

HAHA, yeah right.

If you think that is passion then I pity you.
191

,

03/02/2009 17:18:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
192

Thistledhu,

03/02/2009 17:18:25
226 electoral fraud useing the postal vote is acheivable and has happend both in England and N/Ireland where Sinn Fein have it down to an art form
193

Rufus-T-Firefly,

03/02/2009 17:18:48
219 Nevsky;,Moscow 03/02/2009 17:09:20
Great to seeyou concentrating on the important issues (as usual)!
========================================================

You must be off topic...............you never mentioned Norway.

You running a temperature?
194

Rufus-T-Firefly,

03/02/2009 17:19:57
230 Nevsky;,Moscow 03/02/2009 17:17:11
222 Cynicus#

It has nothing to do with THE victory it has everything to do with the scale and the way it came about.
====================================================

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

YEAH RIGHT.

The SNP took a Pasting and they cannot take it.

How pathetic.
195

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 03/02/2009 17:20:00
#202 - Aye, you get a small - very small - amount of personation at all Elections, by supporters of all Parties. But it would take a hell of a lot of dead people voting to reverse a 7,000 majority. You'd have to did up half the graveyards in Fife.

#207 - No, lots of Gnats think that something was wrong with Glenothes. That something was that despite their own hype, they failed to win, hence the current straw-clutching. The rest of us were quite happy to accept the result.

#210 - We'll see over the next few days, shall we? Whether this story has legs or whether it is just dismissed as the latest bout of Gnat spit-stirring? Move along now, people, nothing happening here, nothing to see.
196

Grahamski',

03/02/2009 17:20:14


231. I respect you passion, it's attractive to middle aged men like me

197

,

03/02/2009 17:20:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
198

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

03/02/2009 17:20:32
Open and fair democratic voting is the right many people have died for in our past. We owe it to each and everyone of us to ensure that voting is on a one person one vote basis. The who care enough to vote get to choose our government.

If their is the slightest doubt about fraud at an election then it should be investigated. The moment we the voters cannot trust elected officials to at least not commit fraud counting the vote we are in trouble.

Think of the places around the world where we suspect voter fraud? Do not kid yourselves on there is not people like that available in our own political parties. All of them.

If there is a possible crime lets investigate even if all we prove is the legitimate result was true and above question.

I for one would sleep much easier if I thought all that went on is the Glenrothes is a little slow on the uptake about Labour and continued to vote from historical loyality. Many of us where once labour supporters of a sort.

I would be much more concerned if we were witnessing the darkest art of political deception by a tyrannical government in meltdown.

Either way it is normal practice to investigate such allegations. We will all be better served by the truth.
199

Grahamski',

03/02/2009 17:21:11


236. I'm not sure we can keep deflecting these attacks Rufus.

Can you call Smee to get him activated, I know he's on evening shift this week but we're really struggling

200

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 03/02/2009 17:21:23
Unless these records have simply been shredded by mistake, or lost or misplaced, then it does appear very strange?

On a recent news bulletin, it is claimed that the Electoral Commission may well have to be brought in to enquire into this matter because there is no other recent example of marked registers disappearing in similar circumstances, not even in Northern Ireland, where there were many abuses of the electoral system.

Some form of enquiry will have to be held because after the voting fiasco at the Scottish Parliament Elections it is making the United Kingdom look more and more like some banana republic!
201

Rufus-T-Firefly,

03/02/2009 17:22:06
235 The Spook in Leith,03/02/2009 17:19:25
Funny i said think the same about you. How's the IT job going or is political point scoring on this website more important ?
====================================================

It is going fine spook.

How is the football going or is political point scoring on this website more important ??
202

,

03/02/2009 17:23:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
203

Miss H,

03/02/2009 17:24:12
221 The SNP had no reason to challenge it. You can't challenge an election just because you lose and you can't make accusations of electoral fraud without any proof. You can watch the postal votes being opened - which is why we know they were almost all for Labour - but you cannot challenge the outcome simply because you don't like it. For all the SNP knew at that point Labour had simply run a superb campaign. When the request was put in for the marked up register that would have allowed the SNP to verify whether voters who were recorded as having voted actually did and would have laid all unpleasant rumours to rest. Then the discovery is made - oops, the register has been shredded.

204

Grahamski',

03/02/2009 17:25:02


244. The thing is Rufus, I never wanted to vote Labour, I just felt .... (weep)... that I ought to follow in the st..e...p..s (sobbing) of ma faither.

How can we defend such corruption?

205

Rufus-T-Firefly,

03/02/2009 17:25:08
242 Grahamski'

You are nothing but a poor mans Faker. Why not visit Dignitas in Switzerland and do us all a favour?
206

Rufus-T-Firefly,

03/02/2009 17:27:00
245 It started in America.But I saved the world.....,03/02/2009 17:23:33
rufus #!/usr/bin/looser - begone script kiddy!
=====================================================

AC/DC WE SALUTE YOU.
207

DouglasT,

03/02/2009 17:27:17
Something which bugs me about this report (and many others)is all these quotes from 'a Scottish Labour spokesman'. Who is this font of information? Does he exist? Is it journalistic licence? Is the spokesman too frightened to be associated with his/her words? Sloppy journalism or evasive political spin, or both? You choose.
208

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/02/2009 17:27:28
243 Yes an investigation will have to be carried out. It's quite possible that this was an accident. I reckon that if the registers are to be kept for a limited time period they probably shred the last lot when they store the new lot. Did someone shred the wrong ones ? I think that is a lot more likely than all this conspiracy stuff which would require the co-operation of either council or court officials. Which contrary to some people's beliefs, I don't think is a reasonable assumption. I think it's more likely to be incompetence.

But we need to find out.
209

Eve,

Scoltand 03/02/2009 17:27:49
#233 Thistledhu:
"electoral fraud useing the postal vote is acheivable and has happend both in England and N/Ireland where Sinn Fein have it down to an art form"

Ah so it's Sin Fein who mess about with elections. Just two questions, Why would Sin Fein want the Labour Party to win? & Why does what happens in the elections outside Northen Irealand effet them?
210

Roger Reckless,

03/02/2009 17:28:05
#227 Spook: there is no criminal behaviour, not that I'd have any objection if it spares us all from more Nutty Nat Fanatics in Parliament LOL
211

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 03/02/2009 17:29:23
#229 - "I do not say - and neither does anyone in the SNP - that the election was 'stolen'. But there are questions about the postal votes which will never now be answered"

No, you don't. That is not what the SNP are about here. You simply want to spread disinformation and put doubts in voters' minds about Glenrothes' legitimacy. The questions about the Postal Votes may not be answered because they were not asked by the SNP at the time, despite the fact that as I have said the Party would have known in advance who had PVs, would have been able to watch them being opened and would have had a fair idea of how it was going.

You are simply being dishonest here. But now that you have outed yourself as an SNP spokesperson, I suppose that should not surprise anyone.

And you are being dishonest again in #246. The SNP will have a list of PVs - as presumably will the SNP Council as they are responsible for maintaining the Register - so that aspect could be checked now. Also the ballot papers still exist. What IS missing is the marked up Register, which two arms of the SNP administration have between them managed to lose.
212

Nevsky;,

Moscow 03/02/2009 17:29:56
249 Rufus#

Any comment on the Dominic Lawson article stating how Brown was a Scottish embarrassment in wrapping himself in the Union Flag?

Nothing the English hate more than a creepy Anglo-Scot is seems! Must make you very proud to know the English educated classes are laughing at you?

Very clever people the English!

213

LEAL,

03/02/2009 17:30:50
Labour were totally outgunned by the SNP in Glenrothes campaigning.Can we really blame them if they used the postal votes to even things up a bit.Its not fair that the Scots have so many enthusiastic supporters and workers when the Labour party have so few.
214

DouglasT,

03/02/2009 17:31:07
Another regular Scotsman abuse - who wrote this article? Any bets it was 'a Labour spokesman'? lol
215

Grahamski',

03/02/2009 17:32:01


249. It's me you fool, what's the tactic we're taking a pasting here.


216

Lauwrie,

03/02/2009 17:32:31
This stinks. And you know what? The total number voting was above trend too. ie the 7000 or so postal votes -out of a total of 36,195 votes cast. Seems like a hell of a lot of postal votes.
217

Rufus-T-Firefly,

03/02/2009 17:33:07
250 The Spook in Leith,03/02/2009 17:26:57
I have another 10 mins on hear then i have to make tracks for training, you see that's what i call balanced hobbies.
====================================================

Excellent, thats the 10 minutes passed.
218

Grahamski',

03/02/2009 17:33:10


259. Is it possible for Labour to 'affect' lots of pensioners postal votes?


219

Grahamski',

03/02/2009 17:34:29


262. It's wrong to suggest that Labour might have either fiddled the postal votes or 'leant' on vulnerable pensioners to secure their votes.

There is nothing wrong with telling the truth, voting SNP will mean a £5000 tax bill.

220

Roger Reckless,

03/02/2009 17:34:50
#258 Spook: yes, it's always best practice to deny everything when one of one's spare monikers starts making an d*ck of him (or her) self!
221

Rufus-T-Firefly,

03/02/2009 17:35:06
257 Nevsky;,Moscow 03/02/2009 17:29:56
249 Rufus#
Any comment on the Dominic Lawson article stating how Brown was a Scottish embarrassment in wrapping himself in the Union Flag?
Nothing the English hate more than a creepy Anglo-Scot is seems! Must make you very proud to know the English educated classes are laughing at you?
Very clever people the English!
===================================================

You are wasting your time here Nevsky as I could not give a monkeys.
222

,

03/02/2009 17:36:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
223

Thistledhu,

03/02/2009 17:36:28
i am still undecided on this but i must say the labour party are not helping themselves on this the best way forward for the labour party on this is for them to call in the electoral commision on this and put an end to the speculation
if they dont there will be doubt and mistrust of the bi election result and at a time when voter apathy is so strong that is in no- one intrests
224

Nevsky;,

Moscow 03/02/2009 17:36:49
265#

5K for independence...what a shocker..what the currett union tip Scotland has donated to Westminster to keep the Jocks British?
225

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 03/02/2009 17:36:50
#240 - So by all means, let it be investigated. Let the voters of Scotland be clear about in what circumstances two separate arms of the SNP administration which currently runs Scotland between them somehow managed to lose this important marked-up Register.

Let the voters know what has gone so wrong in the Scottish Court Service for which SNP Justice Minister Kenny MacAskill is personally responsible that they cannot even store safely important records trusted to their care.

Let the voters be clear about whether the Register has really been shredded and if so on the authority of which SNP elected representative or employee it was thus shredded, and why.

The people of Scotland deserve to know.
226

Grahamski',

03/02/2009 17:37:03

============SECRET UNIONIST INTERNAL MESSAGE==============

249. RTF, it's me, we've got a blue on blue situation, retarget your posts to the natz.


227

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

03/02/2009 17:39:48
#256 Ghengis

I assume you consider it more important for large numbers of people to continue to have doubts about the validity of our election process.

I get the impression you would rather play silly wee posturing games and daft wee side arguments as a diversionary tactic.

You seem to rate your skills at this above there delivery. You just across as a typical Labour drone with your fake incredulity about others wanting an investigation.

Regardless of the outcome this must be investigated.
228

Rufus-T-Firefly,

03/02/2009 17:40:47
230 Nevsky;,Moscow 03/02/2009 17:17:11
Suddenly in Glenrothes the largest postal vote in Scottish history turns out and gives Labour a huge majority?
======================================================

Seems obvious to me.

Your average SNP voter cannot read or write. In fact it is a wonder so many managed to put an 'X' in the SNP box.
229

Thistledhu,

03/02/2009 17:41:26
Eve i was answering a question from a poster asking if it is possible to carry out electoral fraud useing postal votes where do i say sinn fein was involved in glenrothes?
230

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 03/02/2009 17:41:40
#270 - Oh, the Conservatives - the SNP's coalition partners in the Scottish Parliament. They are bound to have an entirely unbiased view of this issue.

News for you, son - fun though blogs and threads like this are for the idle (like myself), the zealot CyberGnats (like Sour Alba) and the paid SNP hacks (like Miss H), nothing much of what is said on them impinges much on the real Scotland which exists outside.
231

Stuntman Mike,

03/02/2009 17:43:32
Why oh why has this thread not been shut down yet?

The Natz are pathetic! The sheer desperation to smear about says it all about the flimsiness of their cause!
232

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 03/02/2009 17:43:48
#276 - Can you actually read? If so, I refer you to my post #272.
233

Miss H,

03/02/2009 17:45:03
256 You really are a fool. It makes no difference that the council has a record of those electors who vote by post because there is no record of who actually voted.

You do not understand any of this.

Keeping the marked up register is absolutely central to ensuring the integrity of the ballot box. It is an essential part of the measures required to guard against electoral fraud.

That is why the registers are guarded in the same way that the ballot boxes are guarded. It is why the Sheriff Clerk is required by law to keep the marked up register safe for one year and why candidates and agents have a legal right to inspect it and to be given a copy.

The very idea that a marked up register could be lost, far less destroyed, is actually outrageous and only an idiot like you would make light of it or try to score political points.

There will certainly be an investigation, I have no doubt of that and in my opinion it is inevitable that the police will also become involved.

I don't take any pleasure in saying that and I will not take any pleasure if electoral fraud is proved either because it does none of us any favours and only serves to undermine peoples' faith in the process.
234

Thistledhu,

03/02/2009 17:45:39
you are makeing the same mistake's regarding council so i will repeat it again local politicians have little to no influence on how a local authority does its day to day operational business. so it matters not who forms the ruleing party in this case.


There are protocols regarding what a counciler can and cant do they certainly cant walk into a council office and give out instructions to council officers and you know that.
235

Thistledhu,

03/02/2009 17:47:05
284 is directed to Ghengis mcCann
236

Niall,

Cairnbulg Aberdeenshire 03/02/2009 17:48:15
Personally I am not surprised at all. What does beg the question is how 28 or 29 hard bound registers which are quite bulky could suddenly go missing all at once! Not only that from a highly secure location. This is not the first time, a similar case happened in Tenfrewshire.

Stuffing the ballot box and canvassing the Graveyard and gone away vote has long been a Labour party tactic. As in Mugabe's Zimbabwe all you need are compliant Staff in the council who issue the postal and voting cards to separate out the normally none eligible voters such as the recently dead and 'Moved away' and make a list of the postal votes requested which are passed onto certain 'TRUSTED' Labour activists to make personal visits on the postal voters in order to 'HELP' the voters fill them in.

Ballot box stuffing also requires compliant returning officers and polling staff, usually council workers who are members of the labour party. The only way this electoral fraud can be prevented is to have Politically neutral staff not employed by the Council and for some form of identification when the ballot card is presented to the official at the polling station. Then and only then will we see the true number of votes cast.

'S Mise le meas
Niall Ban.
237

Eve,

Scotland 03/02/2009 17:52:07
#274 Grahamski',03: Yer funny!!!
238

Nevsky;,

Moscow 03/02/2009 17:54:50
288 Niall#

They don't go missing and they are not shredded without clear instructions.

People don't just walk into the Court Record stores with a Hewlett Packard shredder, they are marked for destruction at a certain date and normally shipped for incineration.

Any 'clerk of the court' is 100% aware of the process and also the system...it simply does not happen!
239

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

03/02/2009 17:56:07
Well I have had enough for now of watching the spineless knee dwellers wriggling around in sleeze once again trying to convince everybody that we no longer need an investigation when there is allegations of wrong doing and the evidence has disappeared for the first time in Scottish election history.

The unionist position seems to be we should just accept what they tell us and be on our way or be damned as Scotch whingers and Gnatz. They are after all a very honest bunch who have never been involved in lies, illegal activity, atrocities, fraud or corruption.

Who needs open and fair elections free from corruption. We should just trust El Gordo and the London Labour party.

Hip Hip Horay!


240

Eve,

Scotland 03/02/2009 17:56:13
Anyone know the answer to my question:

"How does a person become a brillant MP in just ~4 months after being elected?"

Anyone know who this spokes man from the Labour party was, I suspect through the "Brillant MP" statment that it may have been Lindsay Roy, him self!!!
241

Nevsky;,

Moscow 03/02/2009 17:58:32
279 Ghengis#

I am afraid to have the very basics wrong. The SNP will work with anyone for the benefit of Scotland...for the benefit of Scotland are the key words here.

At the next election YOU will be voting the Tories in at Westminster unless you vote SNP.

SNP will work with Tories for a better Scotland..unionists will vote them in just to stay in the union...spot the difference?

Scottish vote for Labour = Vote for Tory rule!
242

Stan Butler,

03/02/2009 17:59:01

So what are the gnats suggesting?

That someone in the Sheriff Clerk's office either stole the documents or wilfully destroyed them?

That some third party stole the documents from the Court?

Come on, tell us what you think. The best answer wins the chance to be slapped by Sir Sean Connery.
243

Nevsky;,

Moscow 03/02/2009 17:59:51
292 Eve#

I though Sir Cameron MacKintosh had given him role as Fagan in Oliver, no?
244

Eve,

Scotland 03/02/2009 18:03:11
#278 Thistledhu: Sorry it was the way you worded your comment. It just came across as if you were sugggesting that it was always the same person when you only mention one party that may have done it.
245

Eve,

Scotland 03/02/2009 18:05:07
#295 Nevsky;: I'm confused.com
246

Nevsky;,

Moscow 03/02/2009 18:07:20
297 Eve#

Lindsay Roy..dead ringer:

http://www.oliver1968.co.uk/oliver38B.jpg
247

Thistledhu,

03/02/2009 18:09:59
Eve no problem
248

Marga,

Edinburgh 03/02/2009 18:22:09
Laurie - 262

"7000 or so postal votes - out of a total of 36,195" - that's around 20% if true. The figure for postal votes received in Glasgow East, according to reports I read, was around 5%, and that in the Glasgow Fair. I've also read that the Glenrothes requests for postal votes were up 30% on the last elections.
249

langtonian,

uphall 03/02/2009 18:26:30
This story is like "manna from heaven" for a Snp party
desperate to distract attention away from bud'getary problems,desperate to deflect attention to their non completion of any worthwhile progress since becoming the Govnerment in power, (by one measily seat).

We have been regaled by John Swinney that he will create some 1600 "new green jobs",he would have been more convincing explaining the why's and wherefors of a budget, given that it passes tomorrow, is robust enough to withstand a few more months "horsetrading just to keep it's head above water.

The Scottish Government is committed to the future of Gaelic,a quote from Ms Fabiana,assuming the following are their stated attention,
1) The recruitment of further Gaelic officers,increasing traslation services and encouraging correspondence with the the Government in Gaelic are among the measures set out in the plan.
2)Ms. Fabiana backed plans by Highland Council to open further two dedicated Gaelic schools in Portree and Fort WIlliam,she also said plans are "going forward" about the possiblity of a dedicated Gaelic school in Edinburgh!
3)There is indeed more,space prevents a complete litany of these "airy fairy" spendthrift indulgences.

Ms. Fabiani advises that the Scottish Government pledged £12.5 million in support of of the £50m Tiian master piece.The irony being to support the 7th Duke of Sutherland of all people,he being a target for much bad mouthing by the Snp over many years.accused of being one of the main perpetrators of the so called infamouse Highland Clearances.
That Walter Mitty(alias Danny Kay)appeared, on the surface, to be quite sane and sensible while living in a permanant dream world had a relation of Ms Fabianni standing in the Snp hierarchy, beggars belief.

To sum up the Snp will grasp at any story in this case the non story of the Glenrothes by election.Their PR are not doing their party any service by attempting to bury the budget debacle, the Gaelic overspending,and the part
250

Marga,

Edinburgh 03/02/2009 18:30:04
Link to the Courier story (if it hasn't been given already):

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/output/2009/02/03/newsstory12588327t0.asp

However, after repeated requests for the document last month, Councillor John Beare, the convener of the SNP Central Fife constituency, has been told that it has gone missing.

Mr Beare said he was told renovation work has been carried out at Kirkcaldy Sheriff Court and that some documentation had been removed for confidential waste disposal.
251

Nevsky;,

Moscow 03/02/2009 18:30:47
305 Lang#

Another Lowlander who is anti Gaelic..vere think you are a parody in a Walter Scott novel?

Personally i don't agree with any money going to the Duke of Sutherland so that his childen can be educated in Eton but i suppose Scotland should have some paintings..or would you prefer them all in the London?
252

Newtyle Railway,

Antarctica 03/02/2009 18:31:01
Whoever lost the documents or fixed the election neither side has anything to lose from a full investigation
253

Stan Butler,

03/02/2009 18:43:07
#304 Col. Blimp­IV

Not quite, old bean.

At the risk of appearing to be a paranoid and deluded fantasist there is one further possible explanation remaining, although it is so improbable, so ridiculous, so outlandish as not to be worthy of consideration.

What if someone binned them by mistake?

254

BillyC,

Paisley 03/02/2009 18:43:48
What people do not realize is that the postal votes are opened in a council meeting room by officers of the council. Yes, members of any party can go and watch this procedure but no one, at least here in Renfrewshire, used to bother. At one election not too long ago we went along to oversee the opening of these votes and were shocked to see that this was the case and that unlike the polling stations there were no police in attendance. So there is nothing much in the way of them being manipulated.
www.paisleyexpressions.blogspot.com
255

TWC,

03/02/2009 18:56:02
Does any one know when the information was first requested by the SNP?
This is bloody embarassing
256

Scythia,

03/02/2009 19:02:27
Excuse me for interjecting at this juncture,but mighten be that a bungling clerk official has cocked up,it happens all the tie in the public services.
257

Gtj,

03/02/2009 19:03:25
The fact that Liebors so called bounce was built on a suspect election result seems to be hurting some.

The honeymoon continues.
258

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 03/02/2009 19:15:09
They should have a CSI Scotland. The theme tune would be Happy Jack.

Dundee's old town clock was put into council care when they demolished the town hall to build the Caird Hall. The clock appeared in a Dundee antiques shop in the 1970s. The cooncil never even noticed it was missing.

Re the registers; a file can be stuck under a pile of files on a desk but a register (or registers) is an altogether different thing unless it was put on cd.
259

zeitgeist,

03/02/2009 19:15:52
This is serious. Those who merely suggest that it is sour grapes on the part of the SNP are missing the point. Our democratic process needs to be absolutely transparent and the records of the numbers of people who voted are critical to ensure that the ballot papers counted match the numbers of people who voted to ensure that there is no underhand efforts to undermine the democratic process. There does indeed need to be a full inquiry into what happened, and I would suggest that such an enquiry be run in such a way that all those persons who handled the missing information are obliged to give evidence under oath. In other words the investigation is treated as potentially criminal, until such times that it is proven that there was no intent to subvert due process. It is simply not acceptable for this matter to be swept under the carpet through an 'internal investigation'. It may well be that Mr Roy won the election by the margin accepted on the night of the election, but until this matter is fully investigated and the results verified, doubts must remain as to the veracity of the result.
260

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 03/02/2009 19:21:34
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQwm2ZWzb7o

261

LEAL,

03/02/2009 19:25:17
5% postal votes in Glasgow East during Glasgow Fair.
20% postal votes in Glenrothes.Explanations?
262

beckypumps1,

Fife 03/02/2009 19:37:45
I thought Maggie Broon hid the papers in the Brig o doon post office, Maybe they were lost when the post office closed its doors. Did he not say he would do anything to save the Labour party or was that the union?

BP
263

Boab1,

03/02/2009 19:41:03
There do seem to be a few things which seem strange about this.

However, this is a deadly serious situation. The fact that so many people (not just on this website) are even considering this as a possibility says more about the public's perception of politics, and the Labour Party, than anything else.
264

LEAL,

03/02/2009 19:53:13
321 col.blimp IV
could you please clarify your post above esp. no.4
265

Tris,

03/02/2009 19:58:05

A lot of comments made on both sides.

Surely no right thinking decent person can object to a full and independent enquiry in to the disappearance of these important papers.

Indeed, Mr Roy himself called for one on the BBC news tonight.

So let's have one, and get to the bottom of it.
266

,

03/02/2009 19:58:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
267

walter,

03/02/2009 20:00:08
People should be wary of what they wish for.
There is not much difference in Labour votes between 05 and 07, + 580 where as the SNP where + 4478.
Electorate 69,155;
2005: Turnout 37,366 (56.14%)
MacDougall (Lab) 19,395 (51.91%);
Beare (SNP) 8,731 (23.37%);
2007: Turnout 36,195 (52.34%, -3.80%)
Lindsay Roy (Lab) 19,946 (55.11%, +3.20%)
Peter Grant (SNP) 13,209 (36.49%, +13.13%)



268

Churchill W.,

03/02/2009 20:14:22
If the SNP are so convinced of electoral fraud in Glenrothes, why has the infamous MP SNP clype, Angus McNeil MP SNP not been down to his local police to make his customary report?

This is not simply a case of SNP "sour grapes," but, the SNP preparing to rubbish any electoral result that does not suit them. When Salmond loses his independence referendum, if it ever happens, his lowlife supporters are primed in advance to scream "foul."
Salmond and his goons would rather rubbish the Scottish electoral system and the Scottish people who will reject them, rather than admit defeat.
Salmond and semi house-trained troop of harpies have no care for democracy, only what is expedient for them and their aspirations is considered valid.
269

LEAL,

03/02/2009 20:14:32
one explanation for the unprecedented size of the postal vote could be that the parties campaigned hard to get people to use a postal vote.
270

Tris,

03/02/2009 20:15:52
No
271

,

03/02/2009 20:17:18
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
272

Nevsky;,

Moscow 03/02/2009 20:17:59
334 Church#

Ahh oor Angus who outed the corruption at the heart of your establishment and got the PM questioned by police...no wonder you are angry he made a laughing stock of the establishment across the globe...is a corrupt Westminster and house of Lords good enough for Scotland?
273

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 03/02/2009 20:32:03
"f e t i s h, noun. an object believed by primitive peoples to have magical properties, any object or activity regarded with excessive devotion."

This one is for you, Oh Yas@334, from last night.

The quote is from my dictionary. You lost the plot, didn't you?

On the subject of the plot, could you explain to me exactly what is so wrong about asking to examine the records which are open for examination for a year?
274

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 03/02/2009 20:33:01
The law regarding the retention of documents pertaining to the elections to the Westminster Government may be different to the law which applies to Holyrood.

However, here is a wee extract of the relevant legal position as it applies to Scotland.

Retention and public inspection of documents
69.—(2) The sheriff clerk shall retain for a year all documents relating to an election forwarded to him in pursuance of these Rules by a constituency returning officer, and then, unless otherwise directed by order of the Court of Session, shall cause them to be destroyed.

(2) Those documents, except ballot papers, counterfoils and certificates as to employment on duty on the day of the poll, shall be open to public inspection at such time and subject to such conditions as may be determined by the sheriff clerk with the consent of the Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament.

(3) The sheriff clerk may, on request, supply copies of or extracts from the documents open to public inspection on payment of such fees and subject to such conditions as may be sanctioned by the Treasury.

I note the use of the term “the Treasury”

Perhaps one of our Unionist friends can point to when the Court of Session approved the destruction of the documents in question?

275

Churchill W.,

03/02/2009 20:34:15
Nevsky # 338

How much did McNeil's spurious complaint cost the public purse and how many people were charged and went to jail? Do remind us!

The SNPs Glenrothes campaign was a dry run for Salmond's independence referendum campaign. Fake the canvassing returns to show that the SNP is going to win by a decent margin. When the reality, the outcome, proves contrary to those faked returns the SNP harpies howl to high Heaven that they were robbed, foully, by the Unionists of anticipated victory.
Salmond has raised the expectations of his gullible supporters that independence is theirs. When his lies prove to be just lies, he will be the focus of their irrational ire. I would doubt, that if the independence referendum was ever held, that on the night of the count that Salmond would even be in Scotland, he would be hiding somewhere fearing the outcome of his failure.
With the rabid, fascist support that he has, who would blame him?
276

Churchill W.,

03/02/2009 20:35:51
Central Scrutinizer # 343

What have you got against good cigars and booze?
277

Stan Butler,

03/02/2009 20:38:27


Right. That's it.

MacKaskill must go.

I've always thought he was a Unionist infiltrator.
278

Gussie Fink-Nottle,

03/02/2009 20:46:15
Amazing the lack of embarrassment displayed by unionist dependence junkies.

Whatever the rights or wrongs of this missing register, are none of you concerned with the implications of such an important public record going missing a few days after the election, or the fact that it took ten weeks for the Scottish Courts Service to admit they had lost said register?
279

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 03/02/2009 20:50:57
Have you ever seen a dug looking sheepish?

Oh Yas, no reply to 341?

280

Jimmy Le Pie,

03/02/2009 20:51:44
Churchill

We all know you are an idiot, but there is no need to keep emphasising the point.

New Labour Sleaze were the party who were most surprised by the margin of their win in Glenrothes.

Comrade Broon did say he would do 'anything' to save the discredited, corrupt and bankrupt union.

It is starting to become clear what he meant!!
281

,

03/02/2009 20:52:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
282

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 03/02/2009 21:01:38
Noddy dug and co must still be on their milk break.
283

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 03/02/2009 21:02:07
This stinks...
284

Jimmy Le Pie,

03/02/2009 21:02:55
I see from the Daily Mail that us Scots are not the only people ditching the Butchers Apron. ;-)

Outrage as police station ditches Union Jack... for a gay rights flag

http://tinyurl.com/cvxucf
285

brownlie,

03/02/2009 21:08:33
344 Churchill

No one really believe that MacNeil's complaint were spurious. There is no doubt in the public's mind that cash was donated in exchange for honours. The fact that no further action was taken is neither here nor there.

355 Jimmy Le Pie

Don't get the Churchill fellow off on a rant!
286

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 03/02/2009 21:12:43
I want to know what happened to all the missing LibDem votes so lets demand a recount ?
287

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 03/02/2009 21:14:46
355, Jimmy, why don't they just use police flags?

OK that was a bit of fun. hhfh. Have a laugh and then take it down with a tongue in cheek reminder to police staff about the integrity of the police flag.

Now. About the missing ledgers?
288

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

03/02/2009 21:16:05
Why is that after the mess of the Holyrood election - run by Douglas Alexander - did not cause the utmost observance of all subsquent election and especially one as important as this one.

The outcome was unbelievable. Until these records are found we must assume foul play.
289

brownlie,

03/02/2009 21:16:36
357 Liberal

Labour borrowed them from their coalition partners.
290

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 03/02/2009 21:18:02
356, brownlie, the funniest thing on here is Oh Yas on a rant.

He goes yap, yap, yap like a Jack Russell.
291

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

03/02/2009 21:19:20
Infact, It could now be said that there are no safe elections in Scotland anymore. Sucj is the moral collapse under the New Labour regime. Electoral fraud banking fraud, illegal wars etc etc.

The people must throw these tyrrants off!
292

Grahamski',

03/02/2009 21:19:33

I have to admit this whole shenanigans has caught me on the hop, poor rufus is spinning like mad but it's no use.

I feel like I've been had by a whole platoon of very hungry soldiers.
293

puskas,

East kilbride 03/02/2009 21:23:45
Well surprise, surprise.. Electoral fraud.?

Two weeks after the Glenrothes By-election I found that trying to get the breakdown of the ballet / postal vote percentages I found it impossible during that time to get that info.
I spread my wings to the Herald and Scotsman political editors if they could help.
No reply from the Scotsman. The Herald editor replied that he could not find that info either...
Unusual occurance as the result came through that Labour had won no mention of the differential on the postal vote. BBC live debate for whatever reason never brought the subject up.. This certainly was unusual to say the least as normal debate on/in television and media in general would have discussed the percentage difference between polling booth and postal vote.
Comment non-existant.

I furthered my interest by e.maiing my Labour MSP Andy Kerr ( dumpling ) and list MSP Linda Fabiani..

No reply from Kerr ( present day ) .. Linda replied by saying that this info should be open to the public and would come back to me..
Well the reply didn't surprise me when she told me that she was also finding it impossible to get this info..

A number of posters have mentioned the postal vote...

Well to the best of my knowledge the postal vote increased from 1000 to near 7000.. a massive and unlikely legitimate rise..
Also with the info I have been given the ballot box had the SNP slightly in front...

You can all work it out for yourself......




294

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 03/02/2009 21:24:41
357, Liberal for life, you should update your image to reflect the reality. Might I suggest Liberal for nothing?
295

Nevsky;,

Moscow 03/02/2009 21:25:57
344 Churchill#

The SNP got Glasgow East with absolute accuracy didn't they?

As for a referendum on Indepenence i would expect all Scottish people to abide by the outcome whatever that may be.

But let's hope that this time it is an honest referendum...i seem to remember that in 1979 the rules for democracy were slightly bent in favour of the union?

Just to remind you of unionist democracy in 1979:

For Home Rule: 1,230,937
Against: 1,153,300

That is British Democracy!

296

Wardog™,

03/02/2009 21:29:33


What a rumpus.

From reading the accounts of other Labour election fraud, it should be possible to trace all the voters from the voting slips, they apparently all have barcodes on them that identify the voter......

This must surely be worth the authorities doing to simply confirm the register for issue.

297

snecked,

Argyll 03/02/2009 21:32:39
Genghis Mccann, whoever he may be, seems to imagine the local Council runs elections. They do not. They are run by a legal entity called the Electoral Returning Officer who has no political allegiance whatsover. Council employees are usually paid to conduct the physical side of elections.
I well remember the strange case in Paisley mentioned in an earlier post and have had reports of ballot box stuffing in district wards in Glasgow which I believe to be entirely credible.
I myself was an SNP election agent in the 1986 General Election in a Lanarkshire Constituency and identified a significant and very deliberate fraud going on at the count at which 1000 SNP votes were in ten bundles of 100 each with labour vote at the top and placed in the Labour pile.
The dedicated Labour support believes it has a divine right to win and believes that all strokes are perfectly legitimate in the electoral contest.
And any SNP supporter who believes we will be allowed to sail off serenely to independence untramelled entirely by breaches of the electoral process and unaffected by a huge selection of dirty tricks and illegal abuses needs only to know the history of the British state to be persuaded otherwise.
298

Stan Butler,

03/02/2009 21:41:10

Hang on a minute.

The only party to benefit from these documents going missing is the SNP. They're the only one to be able to make political capital out of it.

Not only that, they're the only political party who are in a position to have done the foul deed.

Think about it. Who is in charge of the Scottish Courts Service? That's right, Kenny MacCaskill. No doubt that means he will have a key for the court building. Obviously he has gone in there in the middle of the night, when no one was about,and nicked the stuff.

The SNP then kick up a rumpus saying 'We Wuz Robbed' and 'It's No Fair' and claim not only that Labour fixed the election but that they then went on and nicked the evidence.

You've got to hand it to big Kenny right enough. He's some man.

299

Jimmy Le Pie,

03/02/2009 21:43:32
Stan Butler

How long do you plan on using this moniker???
300

,

03/02/2009 21:53:57
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
301

Churchill W.,

03/02/2009 21:54:53
Jimmy Le Pie # 351

The Royal "we" Jimmy?

Can you prove that "Comrade Broon" rigged the Glenrothes election? If you can I will propose you for Chief Constable of Strathclyde Police. But, I know you cannot, so, on that basis I have to conclude that you are another Natz conspiracy fetishist. Enjoy your fetishes.
Do you think that Nicola Sturgeon has got a face like a robbers dog? Or, is that suggestion just another Unionist conspiracy? I am interested in your opinions, however outlandish!
302

Churchill W.,

03/02/2009 21:59:15
brownlie # 356

It does matter that McNeil's complaints were found to be wrong. If he had been an non-elected individual he would have been charged with wasting police time. I suspect that he will not be making too many more spurious complaints, he will have been warned.
You don't the public's mind, you only know what Salmond tells you is right!
303

Churchill W.,

03/02/2009 22:05:33
Nevsky # 366

A stopped clock is right twice a day.
304

Jimmy Le Pie,

03/02/2009 22:19:36
The last vestiges of the rotten union and empire are disappearing and not a moment too soon.

And, Churchill, you'll be there to witness history in the making.

And your claim to fame will be, being educated by me and my mates, when everyone else wrote you off as a window-licking idiot.
305

,

03/02/2009 22:25:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
306

langtonian,

uphall 03/02/2009 22:28:05
That the majority of posters on this site are of SNP peruasion,they are huffing and puffing,tying each other in political knots,about a very arcane subject matter,full of If's But's Maybe's of the you'r guess is as good as mine variety

They are in denaial with regard to the "fixing" of The Scottish Government buget in the next 12 to 15 hrs.

They should have in mind
You can fool some of the people some of the time

And some of the people all of the time

But you cant fool all of the people all time.

Unless you are presenting a gerrymandered Snp Budget-a-la Salmond/Swiney " hoochmagandy " at which point we will wittness a finnessing,alowing the never before used political terminoligy-WE CAN FOOL ALL OF THE PEOPLE ALL OF THE TIME.

OH YEAH!!?
307

TWC,

03/02/2009 22:31:01
well there is enough concern to ask for an inquiry

so lets have one just like Iraq
308

,

03/02/2009 22:51:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
309

Marga,

Edinburgh 03/02/2009 22:52:50
Puskas 364 - you say you started asking for information 2 weeks after the election and had not reponse - that may suggest that the register became unavailable very early on, and was not necessarily around in the Court during the works mentioned in the Courier report when some documents were apparently sent for destruction - I presume this would be done under contract by an external company? Interesting to find that out too.
310

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 03/02/2009 22:52:51
#365 - no nay never nothing- I prefer to think more positively so I suppose lets just say for now its more like - something old (nationalism) something new (New Labour?), something borrowed (Liberal voters), something blue (forever Tories).

Make any sense to you or not?
311

Brian Hill,

03/02/2009 22:53:32
I read in the Courier that because the Kirkcaldy Courthouse was being renovated, some documents were being sent to the shredder for 'safety' reasons.

So, that's an end to that then. How convenient.

However, someone or some people should pay for their incompetence with their job.
312

Stan Butler,

03/02/2009 23:18:44
#385 Brian Hill

'someone or some people should pay for their incompetence with their job.'


Are you suggesting MaCatskill should resign?
313

Stan Butler,

03/02/2009 23:27:05

The gnats one Glasgow East because of the shenanigans of the previous Labour MP.

They therefore thought they were a shoe in for Glenrothes and ended up getting gubbed.

Much loss of face for Fat N'Eck Salmond (figuratively speaking of course, his huge baw face is as gimongous as ever) and wailing and gnashing of dentures from the gnats.

How to explain the debacle? Invent a conspiracy. A big boy done it and ran away.
314

Gussie Fink-Nottle,

03/02/2009 23:41:29
#387 Stan you seem to be a lucid, sober kind of chap. Are you not in the slightest bit concerned that a vital document that safeguards our democracy has simply vanished?
315

pehman,

sussex 03/02/2009 23:43:30

While the polis look into this, maybe they can find the 10,000 postal votes that went "missing" in the may 07 SP election.

Whars duggie alexander these days ? he seems to have gone quiet
316

Tris,

03/02/2009 23:46:06
It seems to me that whatever the politics of it, some important papers, which by law have to be kept for scrutiny for 1 year have gone missing from the Sheriff Court, probably only a few days after they were put there. I'm not sure how anyone could consider this less than important.

These papers have people's names and addresses on them, so, for this, if for no other reason, they must be found.

As others have said, going into the count, everyone, including Labour Cabinet members from England, thought that Labour had lost. The BBC had said that it looked like an SNP victory. Suddenly this was overturned, not by a few votes, but by a massive 7000. Then, days later, the paperwork disappears from a secure location.

And the Labour supporters on here think that there is a great fuss being made about nothing..... Please!
If there's nothing to hide, join us in asking for an immediate, totally independent inquiry into the disappearance of the papers. Otherwise you do start to look like members of Zanu....



317

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/02/2009 23:47:11
371 You are away with the budgies my dear. You must have overdosed on Oliver Stone.
318

Tris,

03/02/2009 23:48:25
#387.... No one has invented anything. Important papers covered by electoral law have disappeared mysteriously. Are you not concerned? is this OK with you? It doesn't bother you?
319

pehman,

sussex 03/02/2009 23:49:27

388 Gussie;- you make the best point of all here.

It's not just the fact the reg has vanished, it's the slab's re-action to it that just does not add up.

Methinks they doth protest to much, or at least not in the manner right minded people do.
320

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/02/2009 23:49:40
387 We won one in Glasgow East. You held Glenrothes. Can we just be grown ups and deal with that ?
321

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/02/2009 23:57:34
Perhaps Mr Roy/ Rod Hudds emu ate them. Until we get an inquiry that is speculation - and so is everything else.
322

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/02/2009 00:54:34
#170 "The SNP took a pasting at Glenrothes."

Bless Grahamski - you can always count on him to up the ante of Unionist stupidity, no matter how difficult it might seem.

Glenrothes was a 5% swing to the SNP. They'd sell their grannies for such a "pasting" at the next Holyrood general election.
323

Scottish 'N British,

396 04/02/2009 11:46:12
396

"They'd sell their grannies for such a "pasting" at the next Holyrood general election."

They've (SSNP) been there, done that - remember promise after promise before the election - selling their principle to get elected, deceit akin to selling their grannies.

Selling, sorry leasing great swathes of our forestry is another example.

Or is that the "family silver"?

324

Scottish 'N British,

04/02/2009 12:14:31
I wonder which drooling Fife SNP lackey will be selected by SNP HQ to fa' on his/her sword when the truth outs?


And how will it be done?

1. a draw of lots
2. 'heads' or 'tails'
3. see who has the fewest 'Scottish' items in their piecebox.

Just looked at mine - can of Irn Bru, bowl of porridge to be heated up, shortbread for sweet.

Even had the nous to leave my usual choice of CD (classical, today was to be Verdi's la forze del destino) for Sandi Thom's latest CD.


325

Scottish 'N British,

04/02/2009 12:46:42
267

hehehe

Curt, dismissive answer.

It reminded me of a fly I despatched to fly Heaven in the summer. Bzzzzz. Swat. Gone forever.

10/10

lol
326

Curious Yellow,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 15:17:36
#342 - the Court of Session does not require to approve the destruction - that is automatic after a year. If you see my earlier post, it's pretty obvious what has happened here. The sheriff clerk was also holding paperwork from the General Election the year before, and the year was up for that batch of papers. the papers which have now gone missing were probably sent for destruction along with those older papers by mistake. No conspiracy; no fraud; nothing criminal or untoward at all - just a mistake.
327

Penicuik Laddie,

11/02/2009 14:42:12
Hey "Rufus-T-Firefly", boots have got a 2 for 1 offer on their cream incidentally that will sort out the fire in your flies. Anyway to the point, your Labour chums committed a crime. They have been exposed as committing various acts of criminality. Now I know in the fantasy world you live in where the Labour Jack boot rules supreme that we are all meant to turn a blind eye to that. But in normal societies criminality is usually punished... I accept however that until we get independence we dont live in a normal society. So enjoy your goose stepping antics whilst you can. Our day is coming!

 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
  

 
 

Today's Vote

Will the Labour Party hold Glenrothes at the forthcoming by-election?
Yes
No

Featured Advertising



Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.