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Panic at the pumps, oil fields shut down - but what is this strike really about?

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Published Date: 26 April 2008
STONY-FACED and eyes staring straight ahead, the young man stormed forth from Scotland's largest oil refinery holding before him a T-shirt emblazoned with the slogan "Fighting for our Pension".
Brimming with an anger fanned by the Unite union meeting ahead of tomorrow's strike that will cripple the country's fuel and energy supplies, he yelled: "Management are telling lies."

Two hours earlier, Tony Woodley, the union's general secretary, up from London to rally the troops, had accused the plant's owners, Ineos, of being "hellbent on having a dispute". But even as he spoke, questions were being asked as to the justification for an industrial action that will cost the UK economy £50 million a day in lost oil and gas production.

The dispute is about pensions – but it emerged yesterday that the proposals will affect only new employees who will be unable to join the final-salary scheme. Ineos' plans to make existing staff contribute to the scheme have been put on hold to let an independent actuary assess them. Unite was accused of "living in La La land," fighting a "political battle" on "a philosophical principle".

While motorists continued to lay siege to rapidly diminishing stocks at the forecourts, farmers said their concerns were "growing by the hour" – and there could be implications for animal welfare and food supply.

Grangemouth workers – who earn an average of £40,000 – are to walk out for 48 hours, forcing the closure of the site.

Crunch talks with the conciliation service Acas broke down earlier in the week and now the oil giant BP is preparing to shut down its Forties pipeline at the nearby Kinneil site, which will paralyse about a third of UK oil and gas production, as it relies on power from Grangemouth. Last night, Tom Crotty, the Ineos chief executive, said: "Ineos has addressed the issues for existing staff, so now the union say the dispute is about future staff. Unite are asking their members to strike in support of non- existent colleagues."

Last night, an Edinburgh-based pensions expert said: "Unite are living in fantasy land. The changes are fair and reasonable. Ineos employees need to get into the real world; all pension schemes are going into defined contribution schemes because it's very expensive for a company to fund non-contributory final-salary schemes.

"You can't have a free ride and expect the company to pay an extreme amount of money to give these benefits to a final-salary pension scheme. I think Ineos workers are in a little La La land."

John Sansone, a practice manager in employee benefits at Towry Law, said Ineos was following a private-sector trend. He said final-salary schemes had become "financially unsustainable" for a number of reasons, such as increased longevity and mounting pensions legislation. "It doesn't sound as though Ineos is doing anything out of the ordinary," he said.

Professor Emeritus Zander Wedderburn, an Edinburgh-based trade unions expert, said the dispute was "interesting" because it involved a union "standing on a principle about people who are not its members".

He said that the hefty paypackets enjoyed by the Grangemouth workers meant

"they can afford to take a couple of days without pay, but the consequences for the country and the company are utterly horrendous.

It's a potential, rather than a present, members' grievance."

Ineos said it had been four months into a six-month consultation with the union and it had called the strike a day before a meeting on the pensions' deal.

A spokesman added that the firm had already made changes to its initial plans on the back of union demands and had agreed to phase in the 6 per cent employee contributions over six years rather the original three.

A Scottish Conservative spokesman said: "The fact this dispute centres around people who are not even employed yet will bemuse members of the public who will be facing the consequences of the strikes."

However, Mr Woodley insisted that there was "no justification for what the company is proposing because it is profitable and the Grangemouth site is profitable". He added: "After the strike, we have a pause for peace and I hope we can resume negotiations to resolve this."

He said he had invited Ineos to hold more talks, but these were now not expected to be held before the strike starts. He said that if the company remained "intransigent", then an escalation of the dispute was "inevitable".

Alex Salmond, the First Minister, stepped in yesterday to try to bring a solution to the dispute by speaking to Jim Ratcliffe, the chairman of Ineos, and Phil McNulty from Unite.

"I made it clear that if there is to be any real solution to this dispute then they need to get back around the table," he said. "I believe that the two-day strike is certain now."

He said ministers must take a lead in conserving petrol and that fuel supplies would be coming from Rotterdam and Gothenberg, via Grangemouth, with BP is also releasing further supplies. "Supplies are washing around Scotland," he said. "We will have more than enough in the next week. There have been some areas which have experienced shortage, especially some rural locations with diesel, and these have been dealt with."

Meanwhile, fuel prices continued to rise – some by 5p a day – and some petrol stations ran dry.

The UK government has already activated its fuel-shortage contingency plan and last Monday allowed fuel suppliers to talk to one another to facilitate provision. Such activities are normally outlawed under competition legislation.

A situation room has been set up at Whitehall this weekend to monitor the situation and instigate further measures – such as prioritising emergency vehicles or setting limits on how much can be bought at the pumps.

Back at Grangemouth, on the roof of the admin building behind Mr Woodley, the white Ineos company flag fluttered in the wind, but it certainly was not one of surrender.

Those filing into the meeting refused to stop and discuss the details of the pension scheme at the heart of the dispute. However, one worker said: "They are making millions, but they want to take our money."

A young apprentice said: "I am just finishing my apprenticeship and I want to see what it's all about as I'll be in the new pension scheme."

Pat Rafferty, the senior regional industrial organiser for Unite, said support for the strike was "rock solid".

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1

Navvy,

26/04/2008 02:14:16
What is special about these people. Everyone else in industry, though not civil servants are in the same position. We do not save enough in this country.

They are selfish and care not for the rest of the country
2

Laird Drambeg,

Andover 26/04/2008 02:21:46
You know, the usual procedure to deal with such short-term strikes by process workers has been to reduce the flow-rate through the system and co-opt the "salaried staff", chem. engrs, chemists, lab assistants, admin staff etc. to man the equipment at that lowered capacity. So why can that not work now - safety regs can easily be eased in emergency... or is Ineos just determined to have their day in the public spotlight at the expense of their employees? Who is holding whom up for ransom here?

As for panic buying of motor fuel, that can be snuffed out in an instant by setting a minimum purchase amount of about 1/2 tank of fuel, say £25-30; under that amount, no matter, it's still £25. Does nobody have any memories of this from past experience? It's all so drearily familiar.
3

Guga II,

Rockall 26/04/2008 02:47:32
I can see the force of people coming out on strike when they have a genuine grievance, but this lot are striking about something that will not affect them, i.e. pension schemes for future employees. It seems to me that any future employees who do not like the pension scheme on offer, don't need to take a job with the company.

As for the proposal to implement a contributory scheme for current workers, I am amazed that they are being treated like civil servants in that they don't actually make any contributions towards their own pension. In any event, with wages of £40k, they can well afford to make a contribution.

Incidentally, I also think that civil servants should be made to contribute towards their pensions (and politicians, as I assume that they don't contribute either).
4

EhMindOGillie,

China 26/04/2008 03:14:35
How can you call these workers greedy when the strike will not benefit them financially?

It's is instructive to hear people criticise a group of employees on 40,000 a month shrieking about greed and selfishness when directors of companies pay themselves tens of millions in bonuses each year and employ top tax lawyers to avoid paying their dues to society. They get these bonuses usually because they have been successful in slimlining their company - ie laying off hundreds, maybe tousands of people. Now, that's real selfishness and greed, but our society applauds it to the roof yet finds it strange when people on way, way, way less try to protect their livliehood. It's an idiotic, not to say totally contradictory position.

This is how fragile the lives of most workers are, in a job one day, out the next, no wonderthey want a good pension!!!

Workers striking on a matter of principle? My god the idiots...strike for cash and they get it in the neck, strike for principle and they still get slated. They cannae win.

I notice too, no-one from the Scottish Labour Party - recent converts to socialism ha ha ha ha - has commented for this story.

These guys at Grangemouth are just protecting what they have for themselves and their families and future workers families.....just as everyone else would.

All this "for the good of the country'' claptrap is nonsense. Would you give up YOUR pension for the "good of the country'' all you squealers???

I think not. Get a grip.
5

Snuffy Ivy,

Aberdeen UK 26/04/2008 04:34:21
#4 The blue collar working class darts-playing soft cap mentality exhibited by the likes of you is exactly why the UK is in the mess it's in. Lack of education; lack of business understanding; complete lack of work ethic. Socialists like you really belong in the old CCCP.

What the heck would an Independent Scotland do in a situation like this strike? They would Sh*t themselves, and the Scottish blue collar mentality would have to go back down the coal mines again and revert to being black collar workers again. Your kind of arrogance is unbelievable in the 21st century!
6

Mark Renton,

Edinburgh 26/04/2008 05:04:46
Get back to work you bunch of lazy sods!
7

Richardinho,

26/04/2008 05:50:09
Have to say I seriously doubt that most of the workers are on 40,000 a year.
So a forklift truck driver gets that?
8

EhMindOGillie,

China 26/04/2008 05:51:31
#5

Instead of throwing vague and generalised insults about, can you address the issues of greed and selfishness which underpin my arguments please?

My late father left school at 14 to go to work because he had to. He trained to become an electrician and worked hard to become contracts manager at the firm where he worked, creating the most profitable small contracts section in the company. He worked extremely hard to give his bairns the education he didn't have. When the firm for which he worked 35 years went bust, they kicked him out. Do you know how much he got?

1,207 pounds, roughly 35-quid per year of service. He never whinged and never complained and he taught me to work hard also. Which I do. This does not mean I have to submit to the treatment he received.

The man at the top of the company where he worked still lives in an enormous house and has restarted his business after making over 150 people redundant.

No that IS good business undertstanding.

Work people maybe no' as smart and rich as yourself into the ground then walk off with the proceeds of their labour.

Don't talk to me about work ethics and soft-cap mentality...this is the reality.

9

bbbadger,

26/04/2008 05:55:16
Yes they are striking to protect the pension of future employees and they are manning the plant unpaid during the action for safety cover.Its a good job working class men didnt take a selfish attitude 70 years ago but gave their today for our tomorrow.
10

bbbadger,

26/04/2008 06:08:27
Closing the pension to new starts is just the thin edge of the wedge. The scenario is once the newer lower paid workers out number the original employees the old pension scheme is closed and sold off to a private company to run. Then will we hear the cries of derision from the press...no just silence and let the pensioners live in poverty.
Eventually everyone will be on minimum wage with no pension.
Unlike the banks the government wont bail us out of financial pain.
That is why we are fighting for our and the next generations pension.
11

Alan Reid,

NZ 26/04/2008 06:13:02
On a diffrent note, i'm just amazed at how much money the strike costs the uk a day, 50 million!!
And then I wonder how well Scotland would be doing if it had control over it's own oil fields.
350 million a week to be spent on it's own country rather than asking for more crumbs from Westminster.
12

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 26/04/2008 06:13:18
Where is Salmond? Where is Swinney? This is a crisis. Scotland needs leadership.
13

Jeeemy,

St Andrews 26/04/2008 06:15:22
Guga II Rockall#
Sorry friend it’s not often I disagree with you but on this occasion I do.
The company inherited a non contributory pension fund; they now wish to turn this millstone into a contributory fund, in order to do this they wish the workforce to contribute a phased in over six years 6% contribution.
That’s the rub, so how do we sort it out? We have the media quoting in millions the company’s numbers, the workforce deciding that they want some of the action. Question that should be asked is why is not restructuring the entire remuneration package throughout the company on the table.
With the workforce being salaried and on a profit-sharing scheme this would remove from the scene the conflict of the “them and us” approach.
It is possible that sitting in a room with a large table between both sides conflict will happen and engender distrust, a works board on which sit elected members of the workforce and management can change the entire performance of a company.
I have experienced such a system the company had 15% of the market restructuring took place and within 10 years we had 65% of the market I would tentively suggest that such a system could change Scottish industry (what’s left of it) round.
14

mike3,

Midlands 26/04/2008 06:17:08
How much is this going to cost Salmond to import vital fuel from England?
15

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 26/04/2008 06:17:43
13

Jeeemy, I appreciate that you are being sincere but you are living in La La land.
16

pastor ray,

Ohio 26/04/2008 06:17:43
The commits made sound just like the ones we here her till Ronny Raygun killed the American unions in 1985 now look at the condition of the US most of our jobs have been out sourced to 3rd world county's!
Just have a problem and try an talk to tech support all you can get is someone that you can only half hear and understand!
The States is turning into a third world country with our borders wide open and our boys and girls fighting for pagan people who have no value for human life and murder their own childern!
17

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 26/04/2008 06:19:24
14

mike3, a very good question but big Alex will resist that option as long as possible - to the detriment of Scotland and its people. Scotland deserves better.
18

Hamish Simpson,

Leith 26/04/2008 06:49:51
A number of big institutions have gone down this pension route and unfortunately this is fact of life.
I do not blame the staff but the underachieving power hungry union bosses. These guys need to face the music.
Lets face it, if they had any talent they would be working in the private sector generating some value and worth........
19

Blarney,

Forres 26/04/2008 06:56:22
Maybe I am mistaken, but I thought anything to do with Scotlands oil was the responsability of Westminster. Perhaps the people shouting at the SNP and Alex over this are just a little too eager to see problems befall them and indeed their own country.
So we have to wait for the Very Rev Broon to sort this out, and then find a way to blame the SNP and make them pay the bill.
20

Hamish Simpson,

Leith 26/04/2008 07:00:45

Another great example of why an indepedent Scotland would be an absolute disaster. That joker Salmond is remarkably quiet................
21

Hamish Simpson,

Leith 26/04/2008 07:03:00

20 - Blarney

Sound like a typical SNP supporter, well balanced with equal sized chips on both shoulders.
22

Trade-wind,

USA 26/04/2008 07:04:52
Here is a sign of the times, and not a good one. While workers try to save a pension plan fought for and won over time for future workers people on the street are crying about it like they should only care about what is in it for them and the worker of the future be damned. Well this is how the standard of living of the working class has been bettered all these years and it should continue or the living standard for the middle class will fall. Union workers never recoupe what they lose by striking. They look to the future and to the jobs and benifits they will leave to the next generation who follow them in the work force. All of the middle class as well as all blue collar workers, even some white collar jobs are paid accordingly, gauged
by the wages and benifits union workers are paid.
If the Scotish people in general don't back these workers in the sacrifices they are making, with a little sacrifice of their own by enduring the hardship caused by the strike, then a little will be lost for future scots in the quality of life they can expect to live. This is more than a petty issue between workers and management of an oil company. This is about how well the scots people will live in years to come. These men are trying to secure the same right to live better for your children and grand children. They will retire with a pension someone else negotiated in a contract long before they worked there. They are trying to leave that right in place for the next generation. If they fail to win this concession scots who follow them will live less well. Back them up on this, stand strong behind them for your own well being. This is about how well all scot workers will live tomorrow and next year and ten years from now. If you allow the company to whittle away at the promises won in the past, soon they will have taken back all that has been fought for and won, and you, the man and woman on the street, will suffer more than you will suffer because of a gas shortage today. Just s
23

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 26/04/2008 07:04:56
21

Yes Hamish, the silence is deafening.

20

Blarney, you and I know that if there was political advantage to be gained, big Alex would be right in there. But this is a real (ie not one of Alex's imaginary or self generated) crisis and he doesn't want to know. Scotland deserves better.
24

Blarney,

lilithgow 26/04/2008 07:06:48
23. Sorry Hamish, perhaps you could explain what it is you would like to see the Scottish government do about this. Or is it just another opportunity to try and throw mud at them.
25

Lance Boyle,

Linltihgow 26/04/2008 07:09:04
This episode confirms why the SNP ditched Swinney as leader. He is the "responsible" "Cabinet Secretary" - but you can't see him for dust. When the going gets tough etc etc ... .
26

Blarney,

Arbroath 26/04/2008 07:10:20
And the "Scottish" labour party say's........................................?
27

Blarney,

Arbroath 26/04/2008 07:11:07
And "London" labour say's..........................?
28

Lance Boyle,

Leadership 26/04/2008 07:13:10
26

Blarney, you miss the point. Government (like management) is about tackling the big problems. Salmond and Swinney should be right in there. They should be arranging meetings between the 2 sides. They should be chairing these meetings. They should be banging heads together. But I am afraid they don't have the ability or the bottle. Scotland needs leadership. Scotland deserves better.
29

Trade-wind,

USA 26/04/2008 07:13:43
Just sit and think this out in your mind. Really consider what it will mean if the pension is not secured for the next to hire in. Scot workers will be going in reverse. This will set a standard from which the next negotiation will start. The next time a contract expires, what will the company want to take back at that negotiation. This is a loss for all Scots.
30

Lance Boyle,

Linlthgow 26/04/2008 07:13:53
28/29

Blarney, you miss the point - again.
31

Dr Mike,

Edinburgh 26/04/2008 07:15:48
The £40,000 pa sounds like a statistical nonesense.
32

Hamish Simpson,

Leith 26/04/2008 07:16:15

I am 'apolitical' so have no agenda here. I just think that the so called 'goverment' are great at hitting Westminster over the head but struggle to fae controversy in their own back garden. Salmond needs to get involved and take these Unions to task. I beleive that the staff are being hoodwinked (they are still not without blame)but the unions.

Salmond will have a fleet of governement cars all fuelled up so he does not care
33

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 26/04/2008 07:19:41
34

Hamish, this is one of the reasons big Alex is staying clear - he doesn't want to fall out with anybody - apart from Westminster of course. One of the other reasons is that, like most "economists", he struggles with the harsh realities (and lack of logic) of industrial relations. Scotland deserves better.
34

Hamish Simpson,

Leith 26/04/2008 07:20:24

USA - These changes are a fact of life - People live longer therefore DB pensions become unaffordable and will drive job losses. You would have us strike for anything - u sure that you are not from France?
35

Blarney,

Dumbarton 26/04/2008 07:27:44
I think you are missing the point Lance, Hamish, Mike or whoever you are. Why is the "UK" government not stepping in and forcing both sides to talk, like good leadership/management should, they should be chairing these meetings etc etc etc.
Instead what we see is inefectual leadership from London and absolute silence from the Scottish branch. Labour, and correct me if I am wrong, are the government at Westminster, this industry is not devolved to us and therefore is their responsibility. But let's not look at the facts let's simply try to throw mud at the SNP. This is going to turn into a huge disaster for the Labour party.
Are they not going to support the Unions, especially in light of their recent grovelling to them? Are they going to support the management, and reap the benefits of more tax from the Company's higher profits?
Oooh it's a right wee fix Labour is in, but tell you what, let's focus our efforts on slagging off the SNP, yeah that's the way to fix this, it's all their fault anyway, stole oor baw and ran away wi it.
Grow up ya muppet, and pick yer dummy back up!
36

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 26/04/2008 07:29:35
37

Your rabid response demonstrates the paucity of your case.
37

Hamish Simpson,

Leith 26/04/2008 07:30:25

Blarney - Can I refer you to post 23.
38

Langenburger,

26/04/2008 07:33:01
There are two sides to every argument but strip all the emotion away and the reality is that the pension plan will realign to the new pension model adopted by most private companies.
I understand the posturing of the Union and the company has not "negotiated" because they have little leeway but the most disturbing thing has been the lack of vision by our elected Scottish politicians.
Alec and his third rater support team seem clueless and Wendy has obviously briefed her team to stay out of the debate,
39

Hamish Simpson,

Leith 26/04/2008 07:34:10

Blarney - You seem to stand alone................
40

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 26/04/2008 07:36:15
40

Langenburger, I agree with your comments about the SNP's lack of quality. However, I disagree with your comments about Wendy Alexander et al - they probably haven't noticed that there is a crisis looming.
41

Jam Tarts 1874,

On the Rebound 26/04/2008 07:44:11
It doesn't matter how small or large an employer is. To continue with a defined benefits scheme since the introduction of the FRS17 legislation is effectively asking the employer to commit to signing a blank cheque to meet pension liabilities.

The shareholders, accountants and risk managers of companies likes Ineos are never going to allow themselves to be such a position. A properly managed money purchase scheme can provide the same benefits in retirement. Ineos have not said how much they will contribute to an employee's pension, but normally the employer will at least match whatever the employee is paying in.

I have spent a large part of my working life as a union member, but I really don't support these guys at Grangemouth.
42

Dollar Tim,

Dollar 26/04/2008 07:44:18
#37 Blarney, you are absolutely correct but please don't confuse the muppets with facts. They obviously don't understand how the mechanics of devolution were set up - or don't want to.
43

PJ Walker,

East Lothian 26/04/2008 07:48:49
Very good point. Where is the usually verbose one now that there is a real crisis on his doorstep. Funny how the former BP executive has been deafening with his silence. When the going gets tough, the weak apparently shut up.

Importing from England will be both expensive and embarrassing!
44

theleftwing,

bo'ness 26/04/2008 07:50:56
here is a question for all who blame the unite members for the lack of fuel on the forecourts.

why are all the stock tanks at INEOS sitting full at the moment?
45

nl-ron,

Netherlands 26/04/2008 07:54:01
Let them strike and boot them afterwards. If you strike for such a reason you deserve no better!
46

,

26/04/2008 07:55:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
47

Roy,

26/04/2008 07:57:26
Who are this Ineos crowd that they can hold the country to ransom?
48

Hamish Simpson,

26/04/2008 07:58:38

46 Leftwing

Lets be clear, the Unions are culpible. It is irrelevent if there are full stock tanks, the issue is that the uneducated unions have hoodwinked the staff who I now think are overly gullible.

The staff should be ashamed of themselves
49

theleftwing,

26/04/2008 08:01:55
that still doen't explain why the tanks are FULL.
50

mike3,

Midlands 26/04/2008 08:02:35
"why are all the stock tanks at INEOS sitting full at the moment?"


because thankfully not everyone is stupid?
51

Hamish Simpson,

Leith 26/04/2008 08:05:19

Leftwing

I am beginning to sense that you maybe one of the gullible staff?

Full tanks for the emergency services and public transport and for fuure rationing if the jokers extend their strike? Full tanks sounds pretty sensible to me
52

mr angry,

ayrshire 26/04/2008 08:08:55
#33 I have yet to hear any union representative or worker dispute the average £40K wage so far.
Whilst they may think it is a great principle for future workers and their pension , they will lose in the long run as the company will need to shed cost in any case and so it will be jobs that go. Far better to keep their average £40K and contribute a bit to keep the pension going. It will not affect the protected union bosses when these people eventually get dumped, they will have cast iron pensions or be labour MP's.
53

Hamish Simpson,

Leith 26/04/2008 08:10:19

54# some sense
54

Jam Tarts 1874,

On the Rebound 26/04/2008 08:14:31
#49. One could ask the same question of Unite!
55

South Ayrshire Sanny Hossack,

26/04/2008 08:21:12
# 54 No Hamish, he is talking total cack, in fact i am going to log onto the Sun or the Daily Sport to get some unbiased opinion, this page is full of morons who support a political party or want to dig at another, no one is interested in what is really happening so byeeeeeeeeeeee
56

Gordon lying traitor scum,

26/04/2008 08:21:54
I hear that more and more people are living in poverty in the UK. I own my house. I don't have a mortgage or any other debts, I earn 30 something k, but I feel some discomfort when it comes to paying utility bills, fuel, council tax. Some months don't even get to put much away n savings! Imagine what it's like for those who have big mortgages, debt and Mcjobs.

I'm glad this is happening. I don't usually approve of strikes, but I think the country needs some major financial hardship because people are too apathetic. I feel that it's so bad, people will still vote for NuLabour in 2009. Socialists are socialists. I'm prepared for some difficulty. Let's bring the country down, then we can remove ourselves from the EU and rebuild our country, minus corrupt politicans. A little pain now is better than prolonged suffering under NuLab and the EU Soviet.

57

Eggert,

Edinburgh 26/04/2008 08:23:16
These guys are a total disgrace. Get back to work and stop listening to these left wing nuts who are in control of these unions.
58

dianne12,

aberdeenshire 26/04/2008 08:26:33
Why does my comment not appear on here? I just wrote a message about 'Peak oil' and this strike being a lesson for the future. Where did it go?
The Earth's resources are finite - these guys are set to become the new miners!
feeling left out and censored!
59

South Ayrshire Sanny Hossack,

26/04/2008 08:27:14
#58 Nearly good Gordon i agree with your first 6 lines but like everone else u go into th political rant.
60

Mac1975,

Aiberdeen 26/04/2008 08:29:43
What a shower of greedy eedjits. I myself have been throughe change from a final salary scheme to a DB one - it's just a fact of life, i'd much rather have a job and contribute (i think it was about 6% as well if I recall correctly) than be out of work when my (then) employer goes bust as it can't afford to honour it pension liabilities.

Stop moaning and get back to work
61

UrbanFox,

Edinburgh 26/04/2008 08:30:49
Its a tricky one. I condemned the miners for holding the country to ransom in the 1980's and I condemn the refinery workers for doing so too. There is no place for such militant union action in today's society.

However.

I am disgusted by the way pension providers have looked after themselves at the expense of millions of pensioners. Everyone who struggles along with a pitifully disappointing pension after a lifetime of work will know what I mean.

62

Radge from the West,

Glasgow 26/04/2008 08:31:16
There is no mention of the guy who is majority shareholder in Ineos..Jim Rafferty, and who is likely calling all the shots.I sense a political wall of silence and avoidance of the issue in Holyrood and Westminster.
He apparently made great use of all that funny money that was until recently sweeping the Globe.Maybe he has urgent need to cut outgoing costs.The focus seems to be to encourage each other to slag off people filling their tanks which is exactly what any thinking person would do.
Is he a Non-Dom or is he paying his full British taxes like all the workers @ Grangemouth ??
63

scorchio,

West of the Pecos 26/04/2008 08:35:53
I am all for people getting a fair deal, but it looks like the extremist element in the union movement are at it again, and I hope the company hold fast.
£40k a year!!! You lot need to wake up.
64

Phil C,

26/04/2008 08:38:16
Same arguments and opinions day after day. It is pretty much agreed that final salary schemes have had their day. These ignorant b's were offered a good one. Someone needs to educate them on real world economics.

The fair offer of 1% increases in contributions for 6 years was shunned. I would have offered pay rises of a non-negotiable 1% over average earnings for 6 years to compensate. In other words no 'pay cut'. Unless of course they get bigger rises than that anyway to line their feather beds!!

New employees would get the same pension and wouldn't weaken the greedy 'workers' ongoing pensions. Ineos keep the same system for everyone, on payment of a fair contribution. Not as cushy as they have now, but more than fair. More importantly, sustainable until the whole final salary thing is blown completely out of the water in 20 years time and everyone takes money purchase arrangements- including the public sector! For only then will pensions be viable for all.
65

The Strategist,

26/04/2008 08:40:02
#66

Correct... INEOS is built on debt some of which it would not surprise me to find, has been provided by the Scottish banks.

66

Mcsnagpile,

26/04/2008 08:42:05
What did one egg day to the other? The yolk is on you; an old joke for an old story.
Enos obviously took the pension fund into consideration when it bought BP. Always the first thing (golden egg) to asset strip. Why go for it now?—because the price of oil is heading for 120 USD a barrel. With the BP field closing down it is even more likely to hit the 120USD+. Talking about ‘over a barrel’.
The unions were completely irresponsible in not considering this at the outset—so bloomin obvious.
Well! Maxwell, somebody has not heard your story.

Looks like the yolk is on everybody –including Joe soap the public
67

The Strategist,

26/04/2008 08:43:23
#66...... Sorry ... meant #64 :-)

However, the only reason why final salary pensions are now considered to have had their day is because the City has decided it's a good way of transferring more wealth from the "have somes" to the "want everythings"..

68

Senga Jean,

26/04/2008 08:45:13
This crisis started with Thatcher and that is why the Tories all but disappeared in Scotland. Labour failed to emulate Norway and set up a Statoil for the benefit of all of Scotland. Now we are reminded of the vast wealth that Scotland has "generously" given away. We are laughingly called greedy to wish a little of it back. All the real powers to resolve this still lie with Westminster and devolutions weakness is starkly shown.
69

allan58,

edinburgh 26/04/2008 08:48:15
While I agree generally with much of your comment #58, I rather think that ridding us of corrupt politicians is an impossibility given that that (a) they are all rotten with it and, (b)along with deceit & dishonesty, being corrupt and greedy are essential qualifications for the job!
Speaking as a civil servant, may I also take the opportunity to point out that our particular final salary pension schemes were abolished from 1st July 2007 for all new entrants. May I also state for the record that, after 33 years in the job, my "gold plated" pension is currently worth a massive £7200 a year if I retired now. Never knew gold was so cheap. Despite the somewhat hysterical ranting of the right-wing gutter trash & many correspondents on this site, this is about average. I only wish I did earn the £27000 a year which the Daily Mail recently stated was the average wage for people like me. Of course, I'd be even happier with the (alleged) £40000 a year the Grangemouth workers recieve.
I make no comment on the rights or wrongs of final salary pension schemes other than to say at least I still have mine. I have no objection to contributing to a pension scheme - indeed, I believe it should be mandatory for every member of a company pension. As for private pensions, that has always been out of the question. I simply cannot afford it. Sorry if this went off track a bit!!
70

Senga Jean,

Scotland 26/04/2008 08:51:08
This crisis started with Thatcher and that is why the Tories all but disappeared in Scotland. Labour failed to emulate Norway and set up a Statoil for the benefit of all of Scotland. Now we are reminded of the vast wealth that Scotland has "generously" given away. We are laughingly called greedy to wish a little of it back. All the real powers to resolve this still lie with Westminster BECAUSE DEVOLUTION'S ONLY PURPOSE WAS TO DISH THE SNP. Devolution now confirms our foolishnes and high fuel prices if obtainable in an oil rich nation is our reward for being Unionist.
71

Phil C,

26/04/2008 08:53:20
#69 The Strategist

Not so. It's because wages are rising much faster than RPI, people are retiring earlier and living longer, amongst other things.

I think that this disruption is a deliberate bit of political mischief-making by the Labour union, Unite. Their lack of reason should lead to severe censure and then crippling punishment. They don't have an argument unless the listener has a severe case of Red Spec syndrome. They are not a union but a 70s throwback gang of bullies. Unite are taking their members on a very dangerous road. The members should kick out their representatives immediately and get real with their gold-plated pension arrangement.
72

Gordon lying traitor scum,

26/04/2008 08:57:46
Outspoken Arizona Senator Questions 9/11 Official Version Of Events

State Sen. Karen Johnson, R-Mesa, has come under fierce criticism for going on record with her doubts over the government's version of events surrounding the 9/11 attacks. Following a vote in the Senate Appropriations Committee on Arizona's 9/11 Memorial, Johnson told Capitol reporters "There are many of us that believe there's been a cover-up."
73

FedUpTaxPayer,

Edinburgh 26/04/2008 09:12:15
Regardless of the rights or wrongs of any particular case, I think strikes are generally wrong. They typically inconvenience people who have no say in the dispute.

With fuel prices sky-rocketting, the economy potentially going into recession, and with the cost at around 50m a day, is this really the time for this? I guess if you're old school union, then it would do maximum damage, the best time for blackmail, so yes.

Now is the summer of our discontent....

With regard to final salary pension schemes for new employees, if that's really what it's all about, then unfortunately I think they are unaffordable now, so really there is no case.
74

Blarney,

Drumchapel 26/04/2008 09:15:09
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E06E0D91139F937A15755C0A9629C8B63

Good morning "Senga Jean", as you will read from this article they are trying to get rid of the Oil workers in Norway's pension conditions, and of course, the government want the retirement age to go up to 67.
The workers in Norway have good salaries but the country does not turn against them when they stand up for their conditions and those of the future generations.
75

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 26/04/2008 09:19:05
From this forum, it appears that Thatcherism is alive and well in Scotland. Disgraceful. You lot won't be happy till the Tories are back in power and I bet that, as in 1979, you'll help them to get it.
76

subrosa,

26/04/2008 09:19:56
# 30 '...they should be chairing meetings...'

Once I read that I stopped reading. Don't you understand anything about industrial disputes. When, ever, did a senior politician chair a meeting between the two sides of such a dispute.

Away you go to the play park. You know nothing about how the country works and all you want to do is sling mud at the Scottish government, who, for your information, have been on every news bulletin since Thursday evening. Of course, it's difficult for those who are so blind they cannae see.
77

Blarney,

Edinburgh 26/04/2008 09:21:08
I wonder how many posters on here are Ineos management or Labour government missimformation consultants. On here to turn the public against the workers, the workers against their leaders and so resolve the dispute in favour of the management and the westmister government.
Oh and if at the same time you can get a passing slap or two at the SNP then so much the better
78

yockel,

26/04/2008 09:22:49
Thia is actually Gordon Browns fault for raiding the pension funfs in the first place.
79

Lennox11,

Coatbridge 26/04/2008 09:27:36
These people are not living in the real world if they beleive that in this day and age with the pension problems we have that they do not have to contribute to their pension, I find it increadable they have had the luxuary of no contribution so far.
80

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 26/04/2008 09:30:08
83

My friend, it is you who is not living in the real world. Grow up.
81

Phil C,

26/04/2008 09:31:05
#79 B U Merchant

I know you get your giggles from winding people up, but you seem to be another of the 'stuck in the dark ages' group who blame everything on Thatcher and can't see past the end of your nose for the red mist!!
82

Jeeemy,

St Andrews 26/04/2008 09:35:37
Lance Boyle,Leadership#
10 postings and still nothing constructive to say yet!
Is it not about time the posters to the hootsman were slightly more constructive in their thoughts?
It is bad enough when the paid writers to the hootsman, are nothing but destrctive regarding our Country?
83

School Inspector,

26/04/2008 09:46:27
Get back to work - no sympathy here or elsewhere in Scotland or the UK. Lazy buggers!
84

,

26/04/2008 09:46:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
85

Pattester,

Galashiels 26/04/2008 09:47:17
71 Well said everyone says how well off the civel servants are well try working for them I have for 23 years and my pension is curently running at £5500 a year which is less than the minium wage and we have to contribute to that unlike what people say and civel servant get everything handed to them on a plate they mistae us with the Bloody MPs who get everything handed to them and still want more thats why there are so many of them corrupt and trying to bypass the system and they get away with it.
86

shivago8,

livingston 26/04/2008 09:49:33
Telling the English what we are capable of if we dont get our independence.
It,s our oil hands off,and reduce the price by at least HALF.
87

Phil C,

26/04/2008 09:51:07
#87 happy english.....sad git!
88

scottish person,

paisley 26/04/2008 09:52:03
Hamish Simpson, why are you blaming Alex Salmond. Oil is still in the grip of your party leaders in westminster. Go to bed and give us a break from your rants. Last week bendy wendy was in full support of the unions, today she is telling them what Alex Salmond said last week, get round the table and thrash out a deal.Cathing up quicker eh'
89

asayeolson,

hawick 26/04/2008 09:59:50
what about making all new MP have no pension writes,wonder if there would be a strike in parliament,lets hope so.
90

stoatsnest,

Ham 26/04/2008 10:09:50
I can sympathise in a way with the strikers, as they see themselves being done out of benefits.
However, as a self employed person who has always been exposed to the reality of economic life,I would point out to them, and to Civil Servants, that they are cushioned against things like the failure of Equitable Life.
I am faced with working till I get a stroke or whatever.
I realise that they think they're entitled to pensions etc, but I'm not, yet I pay taxes to support them.
I don't expect these Grangemouth people to see sense, but then neither will Robert Mugabe.
I'm not on the side of overpaid big company directors either, they set a poor example.
91

Mikey,

26/04/2008 10:11:00
Funny to read the ignorant unionists who think, sorry, insist (unionistas don't think) that AS should be doing something about the strike. Did you all forget that energy is 'reserved?'

Or are you all just conforming to type by being lying, yellow bellied wasters? About time you all got a brain.

It's like listening to whining kids! "I'm no playin coz his ba's bigger than mine!"

You'll all be denying you're Unionists soon, just in case somebody mistakes you all for socialists!
92

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 26/04/2008 10:12:11
London Union Arm told to interfere with Scottish oil.

A clear message to any one who doubts that control of our own resources can only be a good thing for Scots.

Independence from the UK EU USA
93

Grant,

Scotland 26/04/2008 10:18:29
""He said ministers must take a lead in conserving petrol and that fuel supplies would be coming from Rotterdam and Gothenberg, via Grangemouth""

Worth repeating for the unionist trolls, who haven't read the article. Perhaps Rotterdam (location of the biggest oil refinery in Europe) is in the Cotswolds? Maybe Gothenburg is a borough of south London?
94

The Strategist,

26/04/2008 10:21:15
#73 PhilC

I think you've just condemned every civil servant with a final salary pension scheme to being a raving Trotskyite..

The real problem is of course pressure on profit and divident levels mainly exercised by unrealistic fund managers in the City.
95

Just_Me,

way up north 26/04/2008 10:22:55
Aren't these workers arguing for a pension that is unsustainable and has been robbed from every other industry by Gordon Brown.

It seems to me their union isnt advising them too well.

I reckon its a politically engineered farce that was pushed to embarass the scottish government, I wonder who really wanted it?

It seems this farce from the Labour Uk Government has backfired, pretty much like most of their thinking in the last year.

And what about the panic buyers. What a bunch of fools. Its well known that there is enough fuel to last at least a month even if there is none bought or produced here. Two days is simply not a worry. Its a bit like all them wifies buying twenty loaves each at new year when the shops are only shut two days.

Theres nowt stranger than folk!
96

oiless,

dundee 26/04/2008 10:27:26
Wow, what a big response!98 posts
Are people really bothered about a few workers fighting for a pension for colleagues not employed yet, or is it beacause they dont have fuel in their cars to go shopping with.
The next time some tree huggers tell you that it is bad to make biofuel from biomass crops which could be used to make food, just remember that this shortage game is going to get a lot worse. Oil is already
$117/$124/barrel and, if it was not for the USA and Brazil making ethanol as a petrol replacement, it could be higher.
As George Bush said in his 2006 State of the Union Address,"America is adicted to oil".

By the number of posts on this subject and the pile ups at the petrol stations, I think we are too.
97

Dick Lynas,

Glasgow 26/04/2008 10:29:26
Whatever the rights and wrongs of the situation,I wish the media stories telling us not to panic would stop. They are causing any amount of panic and that is making it difficult for me to get enough petrol to drive to my golf and football.
98

Trix,

Edinburgh 26/04/2008 10:31:42
Paralised country because of 1500 or so idiots? Worst example of union muscle. Get Brown to getof grip, Salmond to stand up, and the army in to ensure that fuel is moved, and send the bill for lost revenue to Unite. They are the cause, If they had to pay for it they would be back at work before you could say......!
99

marmalade sandwich,

running a tourism business 26/04/2008 11:00:50
Agree with a minimum charge of £25 at filling stations. There is enough fuel for cars if people behave sensibly.

It is ridiculous that the Unite union is holding the country to ransom. Apart from the personal problems of fuel queues, hauliers and farmers not able to get fuel, visitors not coming because they feel that they won't get fuel - the strike is costing the country £50m - a day.

Unite should at least have agreed to power the adjacent plant so the Forties pipeline could be kept flowing. They are doing themselves few favours.

And it all needs sorting very quickly. Radio Scotland said that Aviemore had no diesel this morning, so was advising skiers with diesel cars only to come if they had enough fuel to get home.
100

eDUCATIon,

26/04/2008 11:02:44
102.....Well said, my feelings entirely.....

"Are people really bothered about a few workers fighting for a pension for colleagues not employed yet, or is it beacause they dont have fuel in their cars to go shopping with."

Joe public is being used as pawns in this game of cat and mouse...I dont care for any side in this dispute but I do care a lot for the price of a litre which is being driven ever higher by all this panic buying and media scaremongering. Its high time this story was dropped from the front pages and let the the people involved sort it out to an amicable solution.



101

Jam Tarts 1874,

On the Rebound 26/04/2008 11:05:07
#101. You obviously don't have a clue what you are talking about.

How has Gordon Brown "robbed" pensions from every other industry? Please tell me, I am dying to hear!

The legislation that has led to more and more employers pulling the plug on defined benefit schemes was brought in by Labour to stop the Robert Maxwell's of this world dipping into funds designed to fund the employee's pensions and to make sure that an employer does have the liabilities covered. The FRS17 legislation requires an employer to demonstrate that it has assets to cover pension liabilities.

If the un-precedented global equities crash between 1999 and 2002 had not happened, many employers and their appointed pension trustees would probably be comfortable with running defined benefit schemes under FRS17, however now that such a crash has happened people are quite rightly concerned about the possible impact of another similar crash in the equity markets or bond markets on the pension funds. If that did happen again then employers would now have to immediately fill the shortfalls with their own cash. So why should they commit themselves to such risk?

No-one is taking pensions away from anyone. If Ineos employees do not wish to contribute, their already accrued benefits will still be ring-fenced and available to them on retirement. Not only will they be ring-fenced, the value of their "preserved benefits" will rise at the rate of inflation or 3% (whichever is the lesser) until they retire, then even in retirement the amount paid in pension will similarly rise annually. Any employees not wishing to contribute could also have their accrued funds converted to a personal pension which would give them full control over their retirement planning and let's not forget that if the employee is a higher rate tax payer (which seems likely judging by the reported salaries at Grangemouth), the Government will pump into that individual's personal pension £40 for every £60 contributed. Even i
102

Jam Tarts 1874,

On the Rebound 26/04/2008 11:07:03
#107 continued...

Even if basic rate tax payer, £20 is contributed by the Government for every £80 contributed by the individual.

Personally I would want the money purchase option anyway, the fact is that in the medium to long term, equities will out-perform and if your fund is properly managed you will do much better than a corporate pension trustee who has no choice (due to other legislation which could leave him facing criminal proceedings) but to invest the dosh in under-performing corporate bonds and Government gilts.

It is also worth remembering that most employers will at least match any contribution made by an employee into their occupational money purchase scheme. i.e. if an employee pays 6% of their salary, the employer will at least pay in 6% also, and remember that the 6% the employee pays will also get topped up by the Government.
103

Itchy,

26/04/2008 11:12:33
#7 I'm a contractor and operators are on 40k a year.

I'd love to be in the position they are in.
104

Itchy,

Lochgelly 26/04/2008 11:13:46
#107 Gordon Brown robbed the pensions in his first budget.
105

It's me!,

26/04/2008 11:15:30
Employer raiding the pension pot. Sounds like Robert Maxwell all over again. You can thank the House of Lords for the ruling that employers can raid the pot when it is in excess. Legalised theft. This union no longer has the, "I'm alright, Jack" attitude but are still critisied by those who are brainwashed by the Thatcher governments greed philosphy. It is this sell every thing in public ownership greed philosophy that sold the plant to private hands who act like vultures. There will be plenty fuel. The company have ratcheted up the ante to get public on their side. The gullible fall for it.
106

Robbierunciman,

Romney Marsh 26/04/2008 11:27:02
I am shocked at the attitude of many of the thr right wing contributors here. People who should loudly about scotland being independent and doffing the cap to England, go very weak when it comes to dealing with a bunch of amateurs who have found themseleves running a business. reinforces the idea that natinalists have no real interest in the 'common weal' and exposes their right wing values.

If the UK wants to be competitive, it needs a well rewarded, skiiled and content workforce. trying to compete on equal terms with China and cutting benefits is not the way.

Note for those supprting the company - who do you think picks up the bill after this change, that's right the taxpayer!

This is part of the price of the company doing business and part of it duty to society - the solution is clear, they should sell the company to someone that knows how to run a business. the Contributors on this site who cupport the compnay line should be ashamed of themeselves and perhaps, if that is the working conditions they are happiest with - move to china.

107

TrevorD,

Ipswich 26/04/2008 11:28:08
These workers are indeed living in cloud cuckoo land, and the self-centred so-and-sos are hell bent on doing serious financial damage to the rest of us.
The country is facing a serious financial crisis and potential recession/depression; the last thing it needs is this lot trying to screw things up even more than New Labour has done already.
As for Woodley, he is very clearly 21st Century Britain's answer to Arthur Scargill.
What cloud are these people living on ?
108

Brian Ferrari,

26/04/2008 11:30:28
Fully funded, private sector Final Salary pension schemes are closing around the country. What makes you think that the same facts which cause these closures do not apply to this particular scheme?

The unions are saying that the management is hellbent on confrontation. No - they are negotiating and have withdrawn and modified some of their proposals. But because they have not completely capitulated, the unions, in their Red Rob style, have said this is outrageous conduct by management!!!

I would hope these workers are not so insulated from the outside world that they do not realise how little public support they have. And that they need this ompany a lot more that the company needs them.
109

FuriousScot,

Scotland - Rip-off Capital of the World 26/04/2008 11:34:35
Fuel prices around the world
(price per litre)

Australia Petrol 69p/Diesel 77p
Canada Petrol 61p/Diesel 68p
China Petrol 32p/Diesel 39p
Kuwait Petrol 11p/Diesel 19p
USA Petrol 46p/Diesel 54p
Scotland (Petrol 110+p/Diesel 130+p)

These figures show you just how much we are being ripped off in our own oil-producing country. No wonder our industry is suffering and the price of goods is rising sharply...
110

TrevorD,

Ipswich 26/04/2008 11:36:06
"#101. You obviously don't have a clue what you are talking about.
How has Gordon Brown "robbed" pensions from every other industry? Please tell me, I am dying to hear!"
said Jam Tarts
------------------------------------------------------
Die to hear no longer, Jam Tarts, because clearly YOU are the one speaking from ignorance. Listen up ....
Brown's tax raid on pension fund investment dividends almost as soon as Labour was elected cost me 30% of my pension fund investments in one year.
One policy worth £90,000 went down to £60,000 over the following 12 months. (It happened to everyone paying in to a private pension fund, but not, of course, to those who selfishly expect their employer - and therefore actually the rest of us via higher prices - to pay for theirs.)
And yes, I CONTRIBUTE to my pension - in fact I pay for ALL of it.
Final salary non-contributory pension schemes are now plainly non-viable, and pure Marxist cloud cuckoo land.
Just try very hard to understand the absurdity of the position adopted by these workers and GET REAL, do !
111

Itchy,

26/04/2008 11:36:45
#114 I've seen these guys in action. I go into their headquarters for health and safety checks and all the lefty rubbish like 'Solidarity with Cuba' and 'Solidarity with Venezuela' is posted there.

Some of the operators told me that the union would rather shut the place than back down.
112

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 26/04/2008 11:45:06
This crisis is not a political football. as far as I see Brown and Salmond are in complete agreement on this, telling the employers and unions to persist in negotiation. This is a private industrial dispute. The Scottish Government offered the services of the President of the Faculty of Actuaries to the parties. You can take horses to water but you can't make them drink. The provision of fuel is reserved to Westminster. Those anti-SNPites who attack Salmond on this must surely be infering that Holyrood needs more devolved powers or even independence so that the First Minister can take total control of the situation. They are contributing nothing serious to the debate. The other doom-merchants, the dinosaur 'socialists' would like to make this a political do-or-die battle in the class struggle. Come into the 21st century and face reality.

As for the consequences to the general public and the economy, this is another matter. Here again the Westminster and Holyrood governments have taken a unified position, in 1) telling motorists not to panic buy, 2)arranging for alternative supplies (tankers from Rotterdam and Gothenburg do take some time to sail across the North Sea, although I understand that one has now berthed),3)avoiding exercising emergency powers meantime.

I think the basis of the difficulties here rest with a resentment that BP sold the refinery to an unknown company Ineos in 2005. The site has been on the go since 1924 and no doubt sons have succeeded fathers and grandfathers in the jobs there, the mining village ethos which Scargill played on so well back in the 1980s. But where did that go. No coal industry. Ineos is not a BP. They are not an oil company. They are petrochemical processors. They will buy in the crude oil one end and sell off the product at the other. They have a huge turnover and make large profits, but they have expanded on borrowed money. They cannot keep financing openended pensions on a sea of debt when people are living upto 30 y
113

Blarney,

Blackford 26/04/2008 11:45:19
The normal way for these things to progress is first to get the public against the unions,(sounds familiar?), then escalate the situation so as to force the government to come in with forced arbitration. This will inevitably lead to the proposed change to the pension provision for new employees, then after some time you can erode and then remove the existing one for the older employees.
114

Huntly loon,

26/04/2008 11:47:54
They cannot keep financing openended pensions on a sea of debt when people are living upto 30 years in retirement. Not in this period of credit crunch. it is unsustainable and every employer knows it. That is why these schemes are now as rare as hens' teeth. They will eventually bankrupt the companies that provide them. Then there will be no pensions for anyone.

Apart from the war of words and the rather naive issuing of writs for defamation, Ineos have offered a very good deal to their workers. They had, I believe, converted a previous shares scheme into increased salaries a few years back. I think the unions thought them a soft touch. They have taken off the table anything affecting pension agreements relating to current staff. This dispute is about the pensions of future generations. The union and workers have said as such. But apart from the role of Head of State, no one has hereditary jobs any more. Each generation must fight its own battles.

What I painfully predict is that the company will not be prepared to invest in the plant and will run it down. There will come a point when it will become more cost effective to build a new plant in a low wage area and ship in the finished product. We are now getting replacement supplies from Rotterdam and Gothenberg. How long might it be before we get tanker ships from the far side of the Baltic?

The unions are playing a very expensive game of poker here. The workers need to choose. Save your current gold-plated pensions at the expense of the next generations jobs. Or accept the good the deal that's currently on offer and keep the plant open for future workers.



115

,

26/04/2008 11:48:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
116

Black Five,

edinburgh 26/04/2008 11:50:10
They sound like a bunch of overpaid commies.It`s terrible that in this day and age the public should put up with this bunch of idiots.We `re the ones who should be demanding their removal.
117

Webbie,

mullingar 26/04/2008 11:51:15
This strike is not about future employees it is about current employees who are to young to join the pension scheme, the apprentice in the article. Maybe if all Scottish workers stood up for their rights we wouldn't be condemning these ones.
When will labour supporters realise their party have never supported the working class because they can't when they are in or want to be in government in the U.K.
118

A Scot,

26/04/2008 11:59:56
Will everyone please take a step back and look at the bigger picture.

Everyone is fighting over pensions.

This is a direct consequence of Gordon Brown taxing the investments of pension funds when he was Chancellor. Put the blame where it really lies.

119

Aqwes,

Edinburgh 26/04/2008 12:14:06
112:
I'm shocked at the attitude of many of the left-wingers here. The idea that you should be able to take without contributing is ridiculous.

Frankly, I think it's about time we took on some right-wing values, and left some of the left-wing, something-for-nothing, failure-to-understand-economics, soviet-era values behind. It's about time for a radical pro-independence centre-right party so that Scots on the centre-right can be proud of their views on freedom and equality of opportunity without being insulted by the motley KGB.
120

Evan Owen,

Snowdonia 26/04/2008 12:14:16
"Their pension"?

Who told them the company scheme was "theirs"? Was it the governemnt? the FSA? their trade union?

The company scheme belongs to the company, it is not a guaranteed pension, they pay a small contribution for membership at their own risk which means they should not put all their eggs in one basket and not complain if it fails to deliver.

Grow up and stop holding less privileged people to ransom in this way.
121

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 26/04/2008 12:20:03
The Disgusting Labour party called this 'tantrum' strike in order to kick the people of Scotland in the teeth for not voting for them. Ironically they are demonstrating why we didn't!

Over the coming months you will see an increased amount of 'strikes' by Labour unions and Labour will do everything it can to heap the blame into the party that trounced them in the last election.

This strike is just another example of Labour throwing a hissy fit and using dirty non-democratic means to overthrow a party who legitimately won an election.

At the next election these corrupt socialist weasels should have their wings clipped for good. Those who vote or support the Labour party should hang their head in shame at these truly horrendous party tactics. You and your party are killing the very essence of democracy and standing in the way of the public good for your own selfish ends.
122

oiless,

Dundee 26/04/2008 12:37:57
I refer to my earlier post (102)
There is no way we would have had 128 posts on the subject of a strike about pensions if it was not for the fact that these guys make fuel.
If you think fuel is expensive now, it will only get worse. INEOS have plans to build a biodiesel plant at Grangemouth to process vegetable oil. Good luck to them and I hope they don’t have to suffer countless setbacks due to endless planning objections from tree huggers.
Crops grown for biofuel absorb CO2 (which we breath out) and emit O2 (which we breath in)
They reduce our dependence on fossil fuels and help mitigate the levels of CO2 in the atmosphere
We have probably reached or perhaps already passed the tipping point for oil where we are using more globally that we can extract.
So get used to high oil prices and bring on the biofuels.

And in the mean time, get back to work you lazy b.......
123

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 26/04/2008 13:00:04
115
FuriousScot,
Scotland - Rip-off Capital of the World 26/04/2008 11:34:35

Good comparison.

The foreign occupier westmincer taking huge cuts of a national of resource of Scotland allowing the inefficient use of multiple companies to take further cuts of our resource, ten times more expensive to the end user, at best twice as expensive. Oh... but we are only allowed to maintain the rigs, platforms and distilleries and pipelines. WHERE IS OUR OIL FUND? There is none. All stolen by the english system.

We are occupied by a inefficient greedy pig with their thieving hands in our coffers.

WAKE UP.

INDEPENDENCE.

On another level, did you know that petrolchemical distillation could have been phased out over one hundred years ago? It's only purpose should be oiling the wheels of industry, not powering it.

http://www.searlsolution.com/
124

Phil C,

26/04/2008 13:02:05
#118,120 Huntly loon

Nothing loon in what you say. I do however think that the Labour union, Unite are playing political football. Their complete lack of any sense of fairness or reason means that they are not negotiating, but destroying. They hope to bring hardship and nuisance to as many as possible to intimate that the Scottish Government isn't working.

disUnite do not have a valid argument unless the listener has a severe case of Red Spec Syndrome. They are not a modern union but a 70s throwback gang of bullies.

disUnite deserve no support, but to be struck off. They are taking their members on a very dangerous road. The members should sack their representatives immediately and get real by accepting the gold-plated pension arrangement they have been offered.
125

Graham Barnes,

Gravesend, Kent 26/04/2008 13:08:24
#71 made a very valid point regarding averages. If you have a few middle or lower management workers on let's say £100,000 a year, this pushes those other workers' wages down a lot lower. I think people should be wary when 'average' wage is mentioned because the word distorts people's views. As for the strike, I can see both sides of the argument. I was always a very strong believer in unions, and for many they were the only way to achieve fairness for the working man. I can also see valid arguments from people here with different views. For the sake of anyone not directly involved in the strike, however, I can only say that I hope this is over quickly, because the innocent are the ones that suffer.
126

engineerle8,

Leiicestershire 26/04/2008 13:18:44
BP sold Grangemouth to a private equity company.
Private equity companies generally make their profits by reducing costs.
In many cases, they cut out waste, make the company more efficient, quite likely with some benefit to the economy and then, not unreasonably, sell the company on at a significant profit.
There may well be genuine efficiency improvements available at Grangemouth but addressing the reduction of future employees’ pensions would have an immediate and significant affect on the 'sell on' value of the company.
From the employee's point of view, this could be seen as a first step to be followed by reductions in their employment package - the thin edge of the wedge.
The consequences for the nation are now plain to see.
The UK economy already in very poor shape (there is an adverse balance of payment of £640,000,000,000 increasing act £4 billion per month)-
Now the country is losing yet more vast sums daily at the behest of a private equity company, thereby raising the question as to whether such companies should be allowed to own assets on which the operation of the country depends and the immediate difficult question how could it be resolved without ‘ nationalisation’?
There are other even more serious potential situations where essential services vital for the future of the UK are largely, if not entirely in the hands of overseas government and companies, for example, the decisions to invest in new power stations.

Finally, BP must have thought that they had made a good deal in selling Grangemouth
BP, too, must be paying heavily for that decision.
127

Patrick O'Reilly,

Coatbridge 26/04/2008 13:20:17
Have just seen Swinney on TV. He's lost the plot.
128

antifa,

26/04/2008 13:20:54
"The idea that you should be able to take without contributing is ridiculous."

How come right-wingers are all so thick? The workers are contributing, imbecile: the non-contributory pension is currently part of their employment package. They are striking to ensure that their younger colleagues get the same deal.

That's called solidarity - something you wouldn't understand, but most of us in Scotland do fortunately.

The idea that we should just lie down and accept that decent pensions are a thing of the past is lick-spittle nonsense.

Why should they be a thing of the past? The country is richer than ever before. And we no longer have an ageing population due to the number of young workers coming in. Pension provision should be improving, not getting worse.

The oil industry is booming - profits are dazzling. A lot of poeple are getting very, very rich. It is the company and its shareholders (the guys making money from money, not labour) that are guilty of greed, not the skilled workers who actually pump this stuff out of the ground.
129

jimmymac in england,

salisbury 26/04/2008 13:22:54
The union are in dreamworld. They are thinking they can screw the company as they are making profits at the moment. Give it a few years to 2010/11 when all of the refineries currently under construction abroad come on stream. Look for Grangemouth turning into a terminal, importing products from these nice new efficient refineries, and then ask how many of the 1200 jobs will be needed. Another Scottish industry down the pan..wake up before it's too late. Thank god I left Scotland years ago, it's standing still in time
130

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 26/04/2008 13:24:42
Phil C - I am not disagreeing with what you write. What I was implying is that the Labour government at Westmister and the SNP one at Holyrood have avoided making it a political football between themselves. Both have avoided taking sides on the merits of the dispute.

This is not the case with the local Labour MP & MSP, who for obvious reasons have taken the union's and employees' stance.
131

Brian Ferrari,

26/04/2008 13:34:08
#136 Antifa

But you are missing something: We live in a market economy where these workers could not get as good conditions (even that are now offered) by moving elsewhere. And there are plenty of people that would like to take their places.

We have movement of labour in this day and age. Anyone can leave their job and go to a better one if they want to. In this case few are wanting to leave and many are wanting to join.

That is an imbalance which will not be sustained forever.
132

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 26/04/2008 13:36:28
137 Jimmymac. I agree with all you have said. If Grangemouth had been state of the art then I think the union would have had the upper hand, but this whole dispute stems from the position that Ineos are needing to spend £750million to upgrade the plant and the future final salary pension benefits package for new employees needs to be curtailed, to make the plans viable. With that sort of money refining Russian oil in Eastern Europe would look like a better deal. Oil landing at Cruden Bay and piped to Grangemouth will be gone in a generation.
133

Nellie,

Liverpool 26/04/2008 13:39:09
#5 Snuffy.
Sorry mate, but you're talking from a place where the Sun don't shine. Back in the late 1970s and early 1980's I was rabid anti trade union and even resented the fact that it was company policy that I should join one when I was first employed by one of the biggest companies in Merseyside. It took a few years for me to realise why the unions of this company were "militant"; all they said about the company's directors and senior management, of them being dishonest, two-faced, unscrupulousness, underhand and uncaring about employees were true! Just one example ... An employee was off sick, at home and dying. A middle manager visited him and persuaded the fellow to accept an ill-health retirement package - a good deal for him and his wife but very poor compared with the benefits his wife would have received if he had died in service!!! Cynical? The manager was bragging about it over a beer with his mates, flashing the £1k bonus for saving the company so much money. (If there is a Hell, I hope he rots in it.) A one off? No, I don't think so.
134

bumpkin,

26/04/2008 13:49:02
I m right behind the oil workers, but the most interesting statistic to come out of this is the 78 million dollars of oil coming down the forties pipe daily. And ther are another 2 similiar pipes, not to mention the gas.
It seems this stuff is worth rather more than the unionists have been telling us.
Can anyone say what the royalty is on 78 million dollars?
135

Mcsnagpile,

26/04/2008 14:00:40
Scotsman Blogs---It is amusing to see so many barking dogs for various clandestine interests. Perhaps the Scotsman could start a franchise—Rent a Dog.
136

Mcsnagpile,

26/04/2008 14:21:40
It is grand to see the Ochil hills without these smelly flares. It is time to knock the whole lot down. The most important shop in Grange mouth is for electric wheel chairs and walking aids,- in the shopping Mall. I know some people who took early retirement from BP. By the looks of them- they will not be living long enough to make a dent in the pension fund.
Any job where you need a safety course to get on site—hard hats, eye protection, safety shoes, gloves, high visibility gear, overalls, ear defenders, standby medical team, should have an additional warnings sign NOT FIT FOR HUMANS.
137

Knapdarlich,

Stirling 26/04/2008 14:34:39
Just to pick up on some of the many points here:

#2 - completly infeasible for "management" to continue to run the plants even at reduced rates in the event of workers walking out; management lack the relevant competencies and knowledge. Such a course would be HSE suicide.

#7 & #33 - £40k+ IS the av take-home salary of the unionised staff. Ask the union if you don't believe this. INEOS staff don't do "low value" work, this is all contracted out to workers who are indeed paid much more modestly. Most of those guys have been laid off this week as a direct result of union action.

#9 - re "safety cover"; the latest wheeze from the union was an offer that ALL striking employees would come out to "fire watch" (whilst still being technically on strike) if management would pay them! I could barely believe this when I heard it, but there you go!

#46 - I suspect you know the answer to this - the fuel tanks a Grangemouth are full because INEOS has been importing fuel like mad over the last week from other refineries to ensure, as far as possible, that supplies here don't run out. If fuel is stranded in the tanks, its because "workers" are refusing to transfer it to the loading stations.

#89 - before you urge the firing of all Grangemouth INEOS staff, please be aware that it is only the unionised staff that are taking action. The sense I get from elsewhere is that the non-unionised staff (who are subject to exactly the same issues) are violently opposed to this strike and extremely concerned about the broader consequences.

#111 - please lose the "pension pot robbed" rubbish - Unite issued an apology to INEOS yesterday withdrawing the allegation.

#115 - fuels are so much more expensive in the UK because of tax - more than 80% of the price at the pump goes to HM Revenue.

#137 - your concerns about the future of Grangemouth as a going concern are justified. However, note that not one single refinery has been built in the western world anywhere in the last 2
138

Knapdarlich,

26/04/2008 14:38:55
Oops...

#137 - your concerns about the future of Grangemouth as a going concern are justified. However, note that not one single refinery has been built in the western world anywhere in the last 25 years. Why? - simply because over the cycle they don't make any money!
139

Knapdarlich,

26/04/2008 14:44:32
Re shutdown of Forties pipeline - this was completely avoidable. All INEOS plants at Grangemouth are already shutdown. Keeping the boilers running so that BP's facility at Kinneil could stay on-line would have made no beneficial impact on INEOS, so why have the union refused to keep them running?

Maybe they want to punish BP for selling the business to INEOS in the first place?

Maybe they see this as a way to significantly broaden the impact of their action - well its certainly done that!

I see no sense in it whatsoever; its completely unnecessary, completely unrelated to INEOS's operatons and will only cause harm to the UK. Gits.
140

W Smith,

Middle East 26/04/2008 15:01:56
Iran is an oil rich nation which has to ration petrol.

Thanks to the fact that their wonderful 'revolution' forgot to increase its refining capacity.

Just weeks ago Salmond was writing a very respectful letter to the Iranians prattling on about his views on...wait for it...Trident!

Well Salmond and his followers are getting a taste of what the people of Iran have had to live with for years.

My guess is Salmond is too left wing (like our Wendy) to condemn these lazy idle 'I am a victim' gits at Grangemouth whike the nation is in crisis!

BTW
Some Scots don't want to work in hotel and catering as they think its beneath them.

Now we've got a bunch of Scots who refuse to work for £30,000 a year!

Lazy b*&^%$£s!

No wonder companies are pulling out of Scotland.

When you're on the dole you'll have plenty of time to talk about 'green' issues, Trident, wind turbines, act of settlement, gay rights, smacking children, sporrans and all the other crap our 'leaders' in Holyrood like to talk about.

Some Scots have made their left wing bed now they have to lie in it.

Watch out for more job loses in Scotland over the next 6 months!
141

Blarney,

Stornoway 26/04/2008 15:14:04
So 42 million pounds worth of oil comes in from the pipeline each day. This is not the only pipeline coming ashore from the Scottish oil sector, there is another two I believe.
Also there is the other reserves which are picked up offshore by tanker every day.
I wonder how many millions a day it all comes, 100? 200?. What is obvious is that we have been robbed, and are still being robbed.
Just remember that our Scottish unionists tell us we would be broke without England.
142

indune1,

26/04/2008 15:19:59
141 - Nellie - for every manager like the one you have described I could provide three who were responsible, decent and I was proud to work with - not for.

With my co-workers I could cite at a reverse ratio those who skived, took no pride in their work and had no ambition other than to get legless every Saturday.

BTW - where was the Union's lawyer to take that manager and company to court? There are at least three laws I can think of that would have paved the way for the eejit to rot in hell.
143

Money Makes The World Go Around,

26/04/2008 15:23:00
I don't seem to remember there being a law that forces employers in the private sector to provide a non contributory pension scheme so why should those of us who have to make our own provision be held to ransom by the ersholes in grangemouth and their union reps?
144

indune1,

26/04/2008 15:35:52
151 - if your posting was in response mine of 150, I wasn't talking about any legislation regarding the situation in Grangemouth.

145

antifa,

26/04/2008 15:38:56
151 - indeed, there is no so such law.

There is also no law against striking to protect the terms and conditions of your younger colleagues - benefits that can easily be supported by this very, very profitable industry.

"why should those of us who have to make our own provision...[bla bla bla]"

These workers have formed an effective union: that is why they have good terms and conditions. You don't get these things for free, you have to work collectively for them.

The evident absence of solidarity in your mindset may explain why you don't enjoy similar benefits.

139 - you've described how a de-regulated labour market is supposed to work. Fine. Are you happy with that?

Do you think it will leave you and your family better or worse off? If the latter, why would you criticise those who are fighting it?
146

Jambo-ree,

26/04/2008 15:45:10
#153 Surely the whole point is that they are NOT striking to protect younger colleagues. At best these are potential colleagues and as other posters have pointed out if potential recruits don't like the terms and conditions then they don't need to apply. Simple as that. This is now just being used an excuse to flex the muscles of a dinosaur union. A fat lot of good a final salary pension scheme if/when their jobs are exported.
147

indune1,

26/04/2008 16:13:38
154 - Jambo - stop calling me "surely".
148

Jambo-ree,

26/04/2008 16:18:27
Boom boom - the old ones are the best....
149

Nellie,

Liverpool 26/04/2008 16:20:59
#150 Then, you've been fortunate. Where I worked, while the grunts at the bottom of the pile were mostly hard working and loyal to their managers (loyal to the company? Ha!) and some of the junior managers were fine, too, the middle managers, senior managers and directors were cut-throats - that's now they got their promotions! Forever, trying to squeeze more and more out of fewer and fewer staff. They stopped rewarding loyalty and instead opted for partial, subjective bonuses to dish out to those who knew how to lick a##e the best. And with the outgoing of incremental pay, there were bonuses for people who received highest grade (subjective!) annual appraisals, which were rationed, not given on merit! If you had 6 staff worthy of an A marking perhaps only 2 would get it because the higher echelons demanded no more than 2 should get it! Marketing (as usual) had a high turnover of staff - and the new bodies brought with them tales that nothing much was different from where we were and their previous employers, except sometimes they were worse. So, I can only conclude, you have been very lucky in your choice of employer.
150

indune1,

26/04/2008 16:28:07
Yikes! I thought you would be watching the match!

Yeah, maybe I have been fortunate but since immigrating to Canada I can tell you there is one helluva of a difference in the relative workforce's attitude.

BTW - I like to think my employers chose me.

151

Jambo-ree,

26/04/2008 16:33:44
#158 Listening to it on the internet - was working this morning so couldn't get up to Edinburgh in time. We've just scored BTW!!
152

oiless,

Dundee 26/04/2008 16:38:49
We are on 159 posts

Anyone know what the maximumnumber of posts on one article is?

Is this close to being a record?

Will it reach 200?

Is it because everyone is short of fuel and decided to stay in today?
153

Jambo-ree,

26/04/2008 16:41:08
#160 Seen some on the footie threads go way over 300.
154

indune1,

26/04/2008 16:49:47
160 - 161,

Seen one here on the Hootsman go over 1,200. Yes, no typo - 1,200!
155

oiless,

26/04/2008 16:51:59
Thanks Jambo-ree

Footy is something that a lot of people can get passionate about but this is still a lot of posts for a bunch of lazy beggars holding the country to ransome!
156

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 26/04/2008 17:11:17
The article on the Aberdeenshire council committee throwing out the Trump golf plans passed the 1000 mark in one day
157

Wee Fifer,

Edinburgh 26/04/2008 17:36:53
This paper doesn't realise what a union is for if it asks (in another of today's articles) why the workers at the refinery are worried about the pension rights of their future co-workers. How daft is that. Pensions not affordable. I don't think so, that's always the same old line.
158

westview,

Electric cars for ever! 26/04/2008 17:44:59
Is Browne, the Defence guy who also runs Scotland part time, or Weird Wendy going on the picket lines at Grangemouth? May be the strickers could convert them both to Socialism?
159

girnie wifie, Okanagan, BC,

Okanagan 26/04/2008 18:16:56
A message for the moderators. Please install a twit filter. I enjoy following the comments, but sometimes they are almost impossible to understand. From now on, please drop these ignorant rants into your garbage bin.
160

TrevorD,

26/04/2008 18:25:19
"Those filing into the meeting refused to stop and discuss the details of the pension scheme at the heart of the dispute. However, one worker said: "They are making millions, but they want to take our money."
-------------------------------------------------------

Your money ? ... YOUR money ?
If it's anybody's money, it's OUR bloody money we're talking about here. And YOU greedy self-centred lot are the ones trying to "take" it !
Who do you think is going to pay for your ridiculously generous NON-CONTRIBUTORY pension scheme ? (NOT you !)
WE are ! WE'll pay for it in higher fuel prices. (You don't seriously think your capitalist employers are going to take the hit, do you ? Or perhaps you really are that naive.)
You're not striking against your employers, sunshine, you're striking against your fellow workers, the majority of whom would love your £40,000pa + perks if you'd care to move over out of their way.
And you profess to have a moral claim? Tch - BS ! ! !
161

Iain fae Elgin,

26/04/2008 18:41:44
To those of you still labouring under the illusion that all in well and happy in Civil Service pension land, I'm a civil servant. I do not have a pension from my work.

Those who joined pre sept '99 still have a juicy final salary scheme.

Those, like me, who joined after do not.

That's life.

Imagine striking over that. Selfish gits.

162

Ally,

London 26/04/2008 18:43:23
#165 - the problem is that this isn't the "same old line" nor is it the same old problem.

When the welfare state came in, the average life expectancy for a man was 64. Now it's 76, and although the rate of increase is slowing, the age is still rising. In addition, people are continuing to retire early, so the problem's getting worse from both ends - i.e. it's de facto becoming less affordable than it was. On top of all of that, because of Maxwell and the like there are increasingly tight rules around funding of final salary schemes. Net result, there is (I think) one UK company in the FTSE 100 which allows entry into a final salary scheme. The Ineos workers need to wake up and smell the coffee - if Ineos end up scaling back production and any of them lose their jobs, they can whistle for a final salary scheme anywhere else.

If I was Ineos I'd start putting out job adverts in Polish. That way they'd get people with a decent work ethic who don't expect something for nothing and understand economic realities. Since I think we did away with closed shop rules 20-odd years ago, they could offer a DC pension as part of the job and the union couldn't do or say anything about it.

If I worked for the union and had half a brain (at the moment the two appear mutually exclusive) I'd publish an offer to Ineos accepting the "no new entrants" rule and proposing a 3% employee contribution cap *IF* Ineos signed up to this as an "in perpetuity" deal - i.e. no way could it get worse. One look at the rest of the pensions marketplace and the workers would realise that they'd be getting the best pension deal available.
163

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 26/04/2008 19:00:35
According to some, a supermarket chain (Asda or Tesco) alredy imports its petrol from Rotterdam. That's up to them but I can only assume it is because they get a better deal there.

So, there would be no reason for them to increase their prices during this dispute.

Also, if the UK is buying fuel from Rotterdam then the UK would be able to negotiate a better price than a supermarket chain. So logically speaking there should be no increase at the pumps.

If only life was as simple as the twots out there panic buying.

I require some fuel within the next week and I shall boycott any brand I see profiteering. Not just immediately but also in the long run (so to speak).
164

A Voice From Scotland,

26/04/2008 19:20:12
#170 The average life expectancy of some areas of Scotland remains at 64, the Union Dividend eh.



Who are we and especially politicians to stand in judgment of workers in a refinery who negotiated for years to get the benefits they have today?

Ineos are a venture capitalist company who plunder and strip assets to line their pockets. The union maintains that they have already lightened the pension fund by some £40 million. their boss RATclyffe has become one of the richest men in Europe in the past decade living of the backs of workers he has destroyed. Only in Russia will you find similar behavior.

Ineos make some £1 million per day on this site so maintaining workers hard won conditions is not financially a problem, even if they invest the £750 million they say they want to. This is financial terrorism and the Labour government should nationalise the plant and see him of. But they won't as they are the most right wing reactionary Government we have yet had, as bad as Thatcher.

They would prefer to penalise 5.3 million of the poorest hard working people in Britain with their draconian tax regime.

Bailing out rich bankers and feeding of their rich donors are more their style, perhaps RATclyyfe has found a way of laundering some of his vast fortune to them. Recent estimates put it at £1.1 billion.

Who should these workers look to for an example of restraint and fiscal prudence? Certainly not the grunting pigs round the Westminster trough.
165

craigy,

26/04/2008 19:32:26
boyle and simpson
the abbott and costello of unionism
166

geekpie,

forfar 26/04/2008 19:36:06
I'm pretty indifferent to the plight of motorists, but it's important that bus companies get all the fuel they need. In fact my journey to work on the bus will be a lot quicker with all the 1 person (no passenger) cars off the road. In fact, I really like the idea.
167

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 26/04/2008 19:37:31
172, A Voice From Scotland,

You are aware that there are employers and employees?

Generally, employers risk their money while employees take the money offered by the employers.

Is that not the rule of the game?
168

,

26/04/2008 19:42:31
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
169

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 26/04/2008 19:43:14
Let me see if my thinking cap is straight.

Left wingers who advocate nationalisation are up in arms about a private pension scheme. This does not make sense.

Nationalise the pension scheme, dummies. Oh I forgot, there already is one but that's too badly run for your greed.
170

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 26/04/2008 19:52:42
Further to 177, I would say that the same goes to anyone who is arguing from a left wing point of view against a capitalist company. The free market dictates that the value of your investment may go down as well as up.

So if you take a job in the free market then learn how to take the rough with the smooth.
171

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 26/04/2008 19:53:15
There has not been panic at the pumps, yet fuel consuption has risen by 50%. The reason this will have happened is that so many motorists have up to now been permanently running on less than quarter tanks and filling up on the red at the next filling station. Because of the uncertainty of the situation and not wanting to risk being caught on the red with no fuel nearby, they having begun to run on half tanks and refill when they reach the quarter.

All cars are now carrying a quarter of a tank more than they would generally have had. The fuel distributors did not build this into their calculations for re-supply. These extra quarter tanks mount up even without panic buying.

Panic buying is where motorists fill up with £2 of fuel at every forecourt they pass, several times per day, using up more fuel lugging their heavier than normal, brimful petrol tank everywhere they drive.
172

Thistledhu,

26/04/2008 20:07:47
~172 there is not a company in the world that is willing to pay for a non contributery pension scheme now
the schoolboy econnomics of the union based on the they can afford it principle is a recipe for disaster
The union has been caught lieing allready what else will come to light?
Many shop stewards are delighted at this good old fashioned union muscle flexing
do you remember the strong unions of the 80's?
yes i do i also remember the unemployment that went with it
173

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 26/04/2008 20:19:04
And don't forget, panic buyers, that a full tank decreases your MPG due to the weight of the fuel.
174

Thistledhu,

Fife 26/04/2008 20:32:12
what was the numbers for the vote to strike ie how many voted and what the breakdown was?
ie for and against anyone know?
175

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 26/04/2008 21:31:24
I can understand why working salaries must differ to a certain extent. I can understand why people who work extraordinarily long hours, who expose themselves to extreme risks, or who engage in extremely arduous work should receive excellent remuneration. But I can't understand why retired people who are not working, should receive different incomes based on their working income. Surely there should be a simple flat-rate (i.e. fixed monthly amount) compulsory pension fund contribution for everyone. Those who receive a large salary should save from their after-tax income to subsidise the standard retirement pension, and people who are poorly paid would be guaranteed the standard pension. Not working is the same for a retired grave digger or a world-renowned professor.
176

Euan,

Edinburgh 26/04/2008 21:49:38
Looks like it's going to be an interesting week ahead.

Got quite a few jobs on this week and hopefully I've got enough diesel in the van to get them done!

I'm sure there will be enough fuel to see us through this mini crisis, but what this strike really highlights is how incredibly dependent we have all become on oil and gas production.

I wonder if the prices of a litre of petrol and diesel will come down again once the Grangemouth plant is re-started and fuel supplies begin to flow again??

I tell you what, I'm slightly sceptical about that one..





177

Jambo-ree,

26/04/2008 21:57:56
#172

Two points:
1. The union has already withdrawn its claim regarding the £40m which was totally incorrect.
2. Do you honestly believe that a final salary pension would survive the transition into State ownership? Would YOU be happy to see your taxes being used to featherbed this shower?
178

Thistledhu,

Fife 26/04/2008 22:01:24
yes unite withdrew there accusation over the £40 million but as quietly as possible perhaps labour should hire the same spin doctors or do they allready?
179

Jambo-ree,

26/04/2008 22:06:02
#183 Interesting points hwoever I've always looked at my remuneration as consisting of two elements - the upfront salary and the benefits package, which includes pension arrangements. Companies have to compete to attract and then retain the best people. If they were to abolish (or not to offer) competitive benefits then they would need substantially to increase the salary. Then the workforce could use that extra income to provide their own pension. But nothing would really have changed in effect, would it?

I worked hard during my working life to accumulate a decent pension and was happy to increase my contributions to keep the scheme solvent and properly funded - more like putting money in the piggy bank than a loss of income as these people Grangemouth choose to see it as.
180

Sambo,

The deep south 26/04/2008 23:10:57
#148 W Smith
You're dead right, yesterday 250 workers at JVC East Kilbride were told they're jobs were going to Poland.
181

A Voice From Scotland,

26/04/2008 23:19:23
#175. Please go and patronise some one who gives a fuk.

Seems I have trampled on a nest of floggers and grunters.


So bosses are good and any worker who wants to maintain his standard of living is bad.

How good are the bosses who run companies into the ground and then walk away with their trousers stuffed with cash. Northern Rock springs to mind, and many others.

If our masters wish the work force to suffer ever diminishing standards of living and remuneration, then they should show us how it is done and lead by example.

If workers such as the Grangemouth staff have worked hard and achieved certain levels of remuneration in an industry flowing with cash, can we blame them for fighting to maintain it, given the example set by the leaders of industry and the pig faced political elite.

This whole affair reeks of politics and scaremongering.
182

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 26/04/2008 23:26:11
BP's plan was to shut down Grangemouth and pipe everything down to Durham, dear Watson.

Perhaps this is a fiendish plot to bring this about.

I shall reveal more once your cocaine prescripting capabilities bring me another line in my investigations.

183

NYScott,

Accross the Pond 26/04/2008 23:27:20
Looks like a Win-Win situation for the owners of the refineries! Make the workers look like the culprit, get super profits off what fuel is still avaialble. have teh masses rise up against those working sod and force them to capitualte... Win -Win for Big Business! Over here we have to settle for the 'Trickel Down" system. Sort of liek teh untra rich get everything and we are greatful for any crumbs that fall off their tables...
184

A Voice From Scotland,

26/04/2008 23:32:28
#180.

Can you provide evidence to support your allegation that no one has a non contributory pension scheme?

Thought not.


What is your opinion of MPs pensions, or MEPs for that matter.


What is your opinion of the Northern Rock bosses walking away with cash falling out of their trousers whilst we pay in tax for their mistakes?

What is your opinion of JVC and Motorola pulling out of the country having picked the pockets of the tax payer and then moving to Poland. Why does the government not step in with buckets of cash there?


What do you think about the rule that says, you motivate your workforce by taking away benefits and remuneration, and you motivate your management team and executives by finding ever more ways to fill their trousers with cash?

5.3 million low paid workers and pensioners are being penalised with higher taxes whilst higher paid workers have their taxes reduced, is that how you motivate people.

I am completely behind the Grangemouth workers and wish them well, if they call this gangsters bluff and bring the country to a halt I will still be behind them. this is Maggie Broons miners strike. Look at the damage that did to us.

185

Jock Tamson,

I hear a voice 26/04/2008 23:32:36
189, are employers bad and employees good? Floggers and grunters? The term may be in house to you perhaps but no use to me.
186

A Voice From Scotland,

26/04/2008 23:37:15
#190. There are pipelines running to Rock Savage North Wales which have been kept secret for all these years. The Forties crude will be arriving there about now. 70% of Brent crude is exported and has little impact on the fuel supply for the UK.

This is politicaly orchestrated for the reasons you have just mentioned and a lot more.
187

A Voice From Scotland,

26/04/2008 23:40:51
#193. You're pig ignorant, I'm busy. Have a nice day.
188

Jock Tamson,

Going to bed 26/04/2008 23:43:03
194. Expect our conversation will be deleted..

189

Jock Tamson,

Talking to a split personality 26/04/2008 23:45:34
How can a man be pig ignorant and correct? Eh, Voice?
190

Jock Tamson,

Elementary, dear Watson 27/04/2008 00:25:42
I think some of these comments between myslef and A voice From Scotland require some investigative journalism. Is there such a think within a lemon entry to the towers on this once mighty tome?
191

GrahamClark,

North Palm Beach 27/04/2008 14:39:22
The reason the present workers are concerned for those yet to be employed there is that in the main they will be their rellies!!
Shades of the print unions in days of yore.
192

lou from niagara,

Niagara Falls Canada 27/04/2008 23:16:12
This weekend the Toronto Transit went on strike shuting down the city commuters. The legislature was recalled on Sunday and the Unions were ordered back to work or the Union would be fined $25000 dollars a day and each Union member $2000 dollars a day. Meanwhile the parties would be taken to binding arbitration. This may not be perfect but at least they are not shuting the city down. To shut a country down over a pension dispute seems ludicrous.
193

indune1,

Canada 28/04/2008 02:49:53

Well put Lou.
194

Red Dykes,

Highland 28/04/2008 07:59:29
As a longstanding union man - I am increasingly disappointed by the fact they choose the wrong issues for their higher profile disputes which inevitably has them painted as "reds" by the media. The pension issue is one of demography and change - their inability to encompass change is the reason their membership is dwindling.
195

Venachar,

28/04/2008 15:47:44
Obviously some people don't have better things to do at the weekends.
Talking about stupid sheep led by left wing morons is the last thing on my mind.
Never mind brothers and sisters you can wave your red flags behind the brass band when the place shuts.
196

S Grundy,

Glasgow 29/04/2008 00:01:56
Final salary schemes are funded by the company whereas defined benefits schemes are subject to the perfomance of the stock exchange which offers no security for pensions. If the billionaire leach from Hampshire does not like having to fund a decent pension for his workers then the government should step in and nationalise Grangemouth WITH NO COMPENSATION for this greedy profiteer. The profits from the oil industry should benefit everyone and help fund decent state pensions for all.

 

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