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Watchdog says HBOS has enough cash to stand alone



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Published Date: 16 October 2008
ONE of the most high-profile figures in the UK financial world has indicated HBOS could survive as an independent bank.
Hector Sants, the head of the watchdog the Financial Services Authority (FSA), said all banks now had enough capital – suggesting the Scottish institution could continue without the controversial Lloyds TSB takeover.

Mr Sants – speaking yesterday after an Edinburgh lunch hosted by Scottish Financial Enterprise and the Edinburgh Chamber of Commerce – said he was "conscious of the extraordinary nature of the events over the last couple of days".

"The immediate issue for companies has not been their capital. No-one has run out of capital. The problems with liquidity were do to with the drying-up of wholesale money markets."

He said the FSA was responsible for ensuring it was content with the amount of capital the banks held. And he said it was obvious the authority was "content with the capital being raised by HBOS".

SNP MSP Alex Neil, who has been critical of the deal since it was first put on the table, said: "The genie is out of the bottle. It is quite clear from what the chief executive of the Financial Services Authority has said that HBOS is a viable bank to operate independently. He has blown the case for the merger out of the water completely."

The development came as more high-profile voices raised their concerns about the deal and backed The Scotsman's drive to clarify the details before rushing into it. The Scotsman is concerned the deal is turning into a shotgun wedding and wants to ensure all possibilities are examined before it is consummated.

Dan Macdonald, the chief executive of leading property developer Macdonald Estates, said he was "in total agreement" with The Scotsman.

Vince Cable, the Liberal Democrat Treasury spokesman, said: "There is a danger they are just going to go through with it because that was what they convinced themselves to do. But now it is not obvious that it is the course of action we should be pursuing."

And Tavish Scott, the leader of the Liberal Democrats in Scotland, said: "I am delighted that The Scotsman is also campaigning to save HBOS for Scotland. As your editorial points out, there is still time to save this Scottish institution."

Meanwhile, Alistair Carmichael, MP, called for the Scottish affairs select committee to examine the proposed takeover in the light of the new options created by the Treasury's Bank Reconstruction Fund.

Jim Spowart, a leading businessman who has raised concerns about the deal, told The Scotsman afterwards: "My gist is there is sufficient capital in that business (HBOS] that it could stand alone, on its own."

• The leading group of eight countries, the G8, has backed Gordon Brown's call for an international summit on the financial crisis and to renew stalled global trade talks.

Support for the Prime Minister came yesterday while he was in Brussels trying to seek consensus with other European leaders. He said the summit should involve the US, European nations and the new economic power houses of China and India.

Mr Brown said: "What is keeping me awake at night is my worry that people… are not getting a mortgage; some people are losing their jobs because of this.

"Small businesses are finding it difficult to keep their cash flow …and I am determined that we act as quickly as possible to deal with these problems."

Meanwhile, the French president, Nicolas Sarkozy, who is the president of the EU, said all European nations agreed on the need for a fundamental reform of the global financial system.

BUSINESS: Banks now 'bulletproof' and must start lending – Sants


No answer was the loud reply

THE six key questions posed yesterday by The Scotsman went to the heart of the Prime Minister's £37 billion banking bail-out.

Last night, the Bank of England and the Treasury were yet to respond to The Scotsman's challenge.

However, Whitehall sources said the government placed protecting the public interests above the need for the Lloyds TSB/HBOS takeover to be approved by the banks' shareholders.

The questions were:

1. Why were the recapitalisation proposals for Lloyds TSB and HBOS not considered and presented separately?

2. Why was there a presumption in favour of a Lloyds TSB takeover – particularly when shareholders of both banks have not yet had an opportunity to vote on it?

3. Why should the government be supporting a solution that stands to trigger many more job losses than those already necessary?

4. Why have assurances not been sought on the retention of key functions in Scotland?

5. What protection will there be for bank customers and consumers as a result of loss of competition across the UK, and particularly in Scotland?

6. Has the government considered alternative options for HBOS? Why could the group not be supported like RBS and given the opportunity to trade out of its current difficulties over the next three years?


Treasury offers banks a boost over dividends

THE three banks due to be part-nationalised will be able to pay dividends to their shareholders years earlier than it was originally believed.

Treasury sources yesterday, made clear that dividends could be paid after a year, depending on the banks' financial health.

This stabilised the share prices of Royal Bank of Scotland, HBOS and Lloyds TSB yesterday after the City raised concerns that the banks would become unattractive to investors if pay-outs were banned for up to five years.

It would also mean that the government would hold stakes of up to 60 per cent in RBS and 44 per cent in the merged Lloyds TSB/HBOS if private investors snubbed the shares offer.

When Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, announced the £37 billion bail-out of the banks on Monday, he said they would not be allowed to pay dividends until they had repaid the £9 billion of preference shares being bought by the government.

Yesterday, Mr Brown indicated the government was in discussions with the banks over dividends.

He said: "We want obviously to ensure that the banks are recapitalised, and one way of recapitalising banks is not just us providing money but the dividends that would normally be paid out going to recapitalise the banks."

Lloyds TSB shares finished the day 1p down at 150p, HBOS shares were up 0.4p at 85.7p and RBS shares remained unchanged at 65p.


Chancellor refuses to rejig terms of bail-out for banks


ALISTAIR Darling last night denied he was caving in to pressure over conditions attached to the £37 billion bail-out of three UK banks.

The Chancellor insisted he was not prepared to reopen the deal agreed with RBS and merger partners HBOS and Lloyds TSB, which will allow them to receive billions in emergency capital.

The banks' executives are understood to be pressing ministers to rethink a requirement for the government's hefty stakes in their companies to be repaid before any dividends are given to shareholders.

The bar on dividends has been blamed for a slide in share prices since the deal was announced on Monday, amid speculation it may scupper the merger plans of Lloyds TSB and HBOS

Reports that the scheme may be adjusted to make it more attractive to shareholders saw sharp rises in the banks' stock yesterday.

However, Mr Darling last night denied the bail-out conditions were being "rejigged".

"No, they are not," he said. "We reached an agreement with these banks on Sunday … I am not prepared to reopen an agreement reached just a few days ago."

Under the deal's terms, the three banks are prevented from paying out dividends to ordinary shareholders until they have fully repaid £9 billion of preference shares being issued to the government.

The government could end up owning about 60 per cent of RBS, and 43.5 per cent of the merged Lloyds TSB-HBOS bank.

ROSS LYDALL

The full article contains 1324 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Trams, prams, jams & bams,

16/10/2008 00:09:02
Equally importantly to the "cash", Bank of Scotland has the local management expertise to meet local needs.

The main strength of HBOS has been its Corporate operation. Based on sound lending principles.

The Haliban only understood mortgages and savings. Not very well as it turned out.
2

Marky Bhoy,

Dunfermline 16/10/2008 00:12:05
Am I surprised by this ........... NO

Does the Subpriminister want it to happen ....... HELL NO
3

Fast Phil,

16/10/2008 00:16:19
Question.
When the dust settles and the HBOS & RBS are in Government hands will they (the banks) still be able to print Scottish Bank Notes?
4

Am Balach,

Isle of Skye 16/10/2008 00:19:59
I predict that the SNP, Lib Dems and Tories will all get behind a campaign to save HBOS and tens of thousands of jobs throughout the UK. How can Brown claim to be saving jobs yet promote this forced marriage now?

Also there is a chance that big institutions will buy RBS shares and the bank won't be nationalised.

If Brown forces through the merger and refuses to loosen the conditions on RBS dividends then it will be final proof that he is using the financial crisis to try and screw over Edinburgh and Scotland.
5

Trams, prams, jams & bams,

16/10/2008 00:20:31
#3,

Yes, of course.

The magnificent Clydesdale Bank (owner:NAB) still issues its own.
6

Phil o Brian,

16/10/2008 00:22:03
Merger should be stopped until a long hard look is taken at the new position for banks. Its not good for Scotland and its not good for competition.
7

Trams, prams, jams & bams,

16/10/2008 00:44:25
I am amazed that the head of the FSA has the brass neck to appear in public.

Presumably it was a free lunch for him?

Nuff said.
8

Edward,

16/10/2008 01:11:56
How surprising!
Just confirms what has been suspectedall along that the so called government part nationalisation was a put up political move to make Brown look good, now
Brown just looks cr*p!
9

SkeptikScot,

16/10/2008 01:39:40
"Bank of Scotland has the local management expertise to meet local needs. The main strength of HBOS has been its Corporate operation. Based on sound lending principles."

Surely you're not serious?! HBOS management and business model was a joke. If HBOS does survive I hope there's a complete culture change, many heads rolling - and a fresh start. It would be madness to repeat old mistakes, learn nothing and expect a different result.

I suspect if the merger doen't go through they'd be a complete nationalisation, but I might be wrong.
10

Dr. James Wilkie,

Vienna 16/10/2008 01:54:18
Will the government-held shares be vested in the Scottish Government, and if not why not?

For the purposes of efficient management it doesn't matter whose names are on the share certificates. It is the quality of management that counts, and I suspect that quality management is as likely to be found in Scotland as anywhere else. And these banks are, of course, Scottish institutions.

11

Forward not Back,

16/10/2008 02:38:29
So the argument here is that Halifax should be divested into the ex-building society nationalised banks along with Northern Crock and Bungle & Bingle but Bank of Scotland is "sound".

Bank of Scotland, if demerged, would be like Clydesdale. It would still require a parent bank unless it was fully under Government control. Therefore, there will still be less jobs in Edinburgh, the Scotsman's real concern.

Wait till it spreads into the life insurance sector; Aegon has already been hammered by the stockmarkets and Widows still sticks out like a sore thumb in the Lloyds TSB world. The same will happen to Standard Life.

Edinburgh will be the noughties recession "Ghost Town", like Coventry was in the 1980s. The two ugly gingers can sign "Gogarburn no more, West End no more" instead of "Bathgate no more" from now on.
12

doublescotch,

US.A.Thought you might like to read this: 16/10/2008 03:52:24
Australia's largest bank, Commonwealth Bank of Australia Ltd., said Wednesday it had agreed to buy Bank of Western Australia Limited and St. Andrew's Australia from troubled British bank HBOS for $1.4 billion.

Commonwealth, the nation's biggest mortgage lender, said the purchase will help expand its presence in Western Australia, the country's fastest-growing state.

"The Commonwealth Bank regularly reviews acquisition opportunities but rarely have we seen a quality asset such as BankWest become available on such attractive terms to us," Commonwealth Bank chief executive Ralph Norris said in a statement. "The strength of our current capital and funding position combined with the strategic value of this transaction makes this an attractive opportunity for the group and its shareholders."

Norris said bank branches would not close as a result of the acquisition.

The purchase is expected to be completed by December, pending the approval of the Australian treasurer and the country's competition watchdog.

Edinburgh-based HBOS PLC has been hit hard by the global credit crisis and is in the process of being taken over in the U.K. by rival bank Lloyds TSB Group.

13

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 16/10/2008 04:38:32
Another Question that should be asked is, Why is their a need to issue preference shares at all?

Preference Shares are not counted as Tier 1 Capital, in fact they are actually more of a liability than anything.

With a 12% coupon rate they will bleed 600 Million a Year from RBS, 420 Million a Year from HBOS and 120 Million a Year from Lloyds.

This is money that could be used to Lend to customers. You have Question the Logic of accepting Capital that costs you 12% a year when your Lending it out at 6%.

It has become increasingly obvious that this "rescue" was done on the back of a fag packet.

14

Joe-kerr,

16/10/2008 04:46:44
If HBOS could have survived as an independnet bank then that would have just taken the wind out of Grdo's sails. He obviously wants to damage Scotland enough to keep her tethered to the union.

I remember like minded souls doing that 301 years ago, the land owning ruling classes, the ones who sold Scotland into subjegation for 300 years. No change i see!
15

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 16/10/2008 05:12:01
No Kampung,

IT HAS BEEN INCREASINGLY OBVIOUS THAT THIS "RESCUE" WAS DONE TO UNDERMINE THE SCOTTISH ECONOMY.

There is little doubt that this is the case as far as the most devious Prime Ministers is concerned, and why he should be removed from office ASAP. He is working to destroy the Scottish Economy as purely a political move, that will neuter the positive attitude that has been running through Scotland for 18 months.

Even though the average Unionist will try their best to deny this is the case, all of us know that is SLEAZY GORDONS GOAL. THIS MAN IS THE BIGGEST DANGER TO THE DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES ON THE PLANET RIGHT NOW.

If when there is a referendum on Scottish Independence, the people of Scotland Vote to stay in the Union, we Pro Independence movement will live with that decision by the Scottish Nation. That is what seperates us from Political Parties like New Labour. Unlike the Libdems and Tories who will fight the seperation purely on the case they actually believe in. Thats because they are like the SNP, and actually believe above all else that it is the Scottish Nation that should decide Scotlands future, based on the case proposed by each political party.

Gordon Brown and New Labour have an absolute disdain for the electorate. They actually believe that they are somehow annointed and the only ones who are qualified. They have treated the Scottish People as merely sheep, that will do as they are theirs by some god given right. After fifty years they have it down pat. Thats why they always come across as angry people who loath all others.

Watch the filth that comes out of some of their mouths, and you will realise that it is party insiders who's only ambition is to disrupt civilised conversation. The Scottish Nation should take to the streets of Glasgow, Edinburgh, Livingstone, Aberdeen, Dundee, Bathgate, Arbroath, Glenrothes, Peebles, Hawick, Lerwick and every other Scottish Community no matter what your political beliefs are. This is our k
16

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 16/10/2008 05:15:15
political beliefs are. This is our kids future we are talking about, and I wont just accept Gordon Browns manipulation of our future, for his own career.

ITS TIME TO STAND UP FOR SCOTLANDS FUTURE, WE CAN ARGUE INDEPENDENCE ONCE WE HAVE SECURED OUR BANKS BACK. ITS ALL OUR FUTURE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HERE.
17

Ugly George,

16/10/2008 05:25:27
15 A Better Way
"IT HAS BEEN INCREASINGLY OBVIOUS THAT THIS "RESCUE" WAS DONE TO UNDERMINE THE SCOTTISH ECONOMY."

Here we go again. Yet another claim of some anti-Scottish conspiracy. So Gordon Brown managed to create a worldwide crisis in banking and then put £billions into Scottish banks all just to scupper Scotland. Oh dear. What will his next conspiracy be - having Alex Salmond kidnapped by aliens? Is he going to get MI5 to bump off Nicola Sturgeon by getting a white Fiat to nudge her car?

Now we know why Mohammad Al Fayed is sympathtic to nationalists. He obviously feels he will be at home with other deranged conspiracy theorists he can find among their ranks.

18

Ugly George,

16/10/2008 05:37:14
15 A Better Way
"The Scottish Nation should take to the streets of Glasgow, Edinburgh, Livingstone, Aberdeen, Dundee, Bathgate, Arbroath, Glenrothes, Peebles, Hawick, Lerwick and every other Scottish Community"

Should they? And should they demonstrate with placards saying "We don't want your £37bn. Let our banks go bust"?
19

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 16/10/2008 06:17:14
No Ugly,

Never mentioned the 37 billion that is being put into THREE BANKS. I simply dont believe that the HBOS and the RBS should be Nationalised by Right Wing Brown. I want the Headquarters of the HBOS and the RBS to stay in Scotland, because they are our banks, started by Scots,run by Scots who employ residents of Scotland.

Of course I want them in the position that they were before Gordon Brown encouraged spend spend spend and took the regulations that served the Banking Industry for Generations of Stability away.

Now you are obviously one of those Brown followers who are "One Eyed" when it comes to your Slavour Party, so please let us all know why that would be a problem.

The status quo with regulation would be more preferable to a political appointee from London getting rid of a very large number of Scottish Residents who put in years of hard work, from being thrown into unemployment by Gordon Browns political conspiracy to strip Scotland of its successful financial sector.

NOW EXPLAIN TO US ALL, WHY YOU WOULDNT AGREE WITH THAT?.

IT COULDNT POSSIBLY BE BECAUSE HE FEARS SCOTTISH DEMOCRACY THAT MIGHT LEAD TO THE END OF THE UNION COULD IT?.

I want these questions answered in a civilised tone please.
20

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 16/10/2008 06:32:28
After reading comments on London Newspapers, that confirmed that Gordon Brown knew about the TRUE state of the economy and the banking sector, I am convinced that the Meeting between Brown and the Chairman of Lloyds on the Flight back from Asia is correct. They both agreed that the Government would relax the Competition Laws that Westminster Passed as Law, to allow a clear field for the HBOS takeover.

Could that be the reason that Darling had his crazy turn and came out against Brown?.

Could that be the reason that political animal David Cairns suddenly resigned his post, to be replaced by Murphy the Brown Lapdog who is doing anything he can to undermine the Elected Scottish Government, instead of his job reprenting the interests of Scotland and attracting new investments. Sorry he must be a bit confused, Murphy is actually working with Brown to put Scots out of Jobs. Like the folk in Glenrothes, who will end up broke when they lose their jobs because of Browns Recession through bad management of the UK economy.
21

Guga II,

Rockall 16/10/2008 06:33:24
Maggie Broon is determined to undermine Scotland and continue to sell the Scottish people down the river - all to help sustain his precious union and his own personal power.

The fact that there are liable to at least 24,000 jobs lost by his selling out BoS to an English bank doesn't concern him, as his aim is to undermine the Scottish economy, any way he can.

Maggie Broon is a liar and a charlatan, and a disgrace to Scotland as well as to his adopted country of England.


22

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 16/10/2008 06:36:49
Eh UGLY WHERE ARE YOU?. Wheres MY Answers?.

Helloooooo Areeee Youuuuu Thereeee Ugleee?.
23

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 16/10/2008 06:43:05
Come on Glenrothes, give Scotland a Stronger Voice.

Forget the lies of New Labour and Vote for the Voice of Scotland. Give Alex Salmond the Trust he deserves, and he will do his best for his Nations People.He has done more for Scotland than fifty years of London Controlled New Labour.
24

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/10/2008 06:54:13
22 A Better Way

Why do you think that putting thigs in capital letters gives it any more credibility?

"Gordon Browns political conspiracy to strip Scotland of its successful financial sector."

There you go again - its all a conspiracy. If Gordon Brown was so intent on stripping Scotland of its finacial sector, why did he put £billions in to save it. Why did he not let it go bust and save billions of taxpayers money?

25

A Better Way,

Scottish Republi 16/10/2008 07:01:45
The Employees of the RBS and the HBOS Banks should NOT accept Redunacy Demands By The Boards now controlled by London Civil Servants.

If you stick together and take your case to the Scottish Nation they will support you in numbers. Dont take this lying down. You didnt do anything wrong except do your job the bst you can.

I witnessed this craap in the Seventies, when Maggie shut down the Shipyards that she had just nationalised. Jimmy Reid and the Workers had a a Work in because the yard had orders for 8 ships and had a great future.

Ravenscraig was very profitable but Maggie did the same then. She said that the Germans could make Steel for the UK.

Gordon Brown is no better than Maggie Thatcher. At least she was up front, unlike New Labours Gordon Brown, who is sleekit.

Fight for your jobs, fight for your families and fight for your Nation. We will march with you.
26

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/10/2008 07:04:06
21 Guga
"Maggie Broon is determined to undermine Scotland and continue to sell the Scottish people down the river"

So much so that he is spending £30bn of taxpayers money to bail out its two banks. Have you ever stopped to consider how ludicrous your assertions appear.
27

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/10/2008 07:07:06
25 A Better Way
"Fight for your jobs, fight for your families and fight for your Nation. We will march with you"

Yes and I can hear the chant on the march:

What do we want? Not £30bn

When do we want it? Never
28

Evan Owen,

Snowdonia 16/10/2008 07:10:38
How much does it cost to print your own bank notes? Notes that are not accepted dooon soooth.
29

Bibamus,

16/10/2008 07:12:41
Why do people insist on spelling Livingston with an 'e' it is a Town not a person !
30

Richardinho,

16/10/2008 07:17:15
Delegates at the labour conference were punching the air with delight at the news of the collapse of the Bank of Scotland and the takeover by Lloyds. Is Brown really going to deny them their victory?
31

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/10/2008 07:24:14
25 A Better Way
"Ravenscraig was very profitable but Maggie did the same then. She said that the Germans could make Steel for the UK".

Please get your facts right. Ravenscraig was part of British Steel which was at the time a private company with Ian McGregor as chairman. It was he who closed it not Maggie Thatcher.

Also you appear to be unaware of the glaring contradictions in your argument. The only way Ravenscraig could have been saved would have been to nationalise it.

So you are complaining that the Ravenscraig was not nationalised to save it and now you are complaining that the Scottish banks have been nationalised to save them. Where is the logic in that argument?
32

Grumpy,

16/10/2008 07:47:21
Please would Bruce Pattullo, Hugh Young and Robin Browning come out of retirement and come and run HBOS - then there would be a real fighting chance that the Bank could be run as a Bank and put back on its feet again.
33

Rodster,

Glasgow 16/10/2008 07:53:04
"I will do whatever it takes to save the Union"
"I have ended the cycle of boom and bust"
So said by Gordon Quisling Toom Tabbard Brown.

add it to your £5000 SNP tax Bill after 2007 Elections

Al quaeda to move to Scotland
John Home Rule for Ireland but not Scotland Reid c/o Sellick Park

"you have never had it so good "
Des lost two jobs Browne

"I did no intentional wrong doing"
Wendy I need to pee right now Alexander

"Holyrood is just a glorified parish council"
Tony the war monger Bliar!!!

these are the cretins the Unionists on here want us to stay with .....
34

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 16/10/2008 07:57:33
A state owned BOS is much better for us than a state owned Lloyds HBOS. The monopoly rules should be invoked to prevent this merger.
35

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/10/2008 08:00:38
34 Rodster
"Holyrood is just a glorified parish council"
Tony the war monger Bliar!!!"

If you put things in quotaion marks and attribute them to smebody then there is an obligation to make sure that you are accurate. That is not what Tony Blair said.
36

Ananurhing,

16/10/2008 08:02:14
Brown is clearly relishing his new found status as Flash Gordon, saviour of the Universe. Still his greatest battle is to save the union, such is it's importance to westminster. Whilst he repeats and repeats his lame mantra of " Stronger together, weaker apart", in the same breath he makes it clear that help for HBOS is wholly conditional on the merger with LTSB, without explaining why.

This says it all for me. I am convinced this is part of his declared intention " To do whatever it takes to save the union", and his willingness to damage Scotland to keep her in the fold. Whilst no one could suggest Broon engineered the HBOS debacle, he is undoubtedly capitalising on it. The fact that the normally tame Hootsman are questioning his motives, is indicative of how potentially damaging this is to Scotland.

This is a repeat of 300 years ago. Economic scorched earth policies to bring Scotland to heel. The man's a sociopath. While the SNP are in power, he will attempt to slow down the money supply to Scotland, and attack her institutions. It's not complicated, and what else can he do.

37

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 16/10/2008 08:03:33
"There you go again - its all a conspiracy. If Gordon Brown was so intent on stripping Scotland of its finacial sector, why did he put £billions in to save it. Why did he not let it go bust and save billions of taxpayers money?"

Did you not bother to read the story?
38

Queen D,

Glasgow 16/10/2008 08:07:46
Prove it Ugly, and while doing so would you care to attribute this quotation to anyone in particular?
"This is not about regime change this is about WMDs"

It is most interesting that the arc of prosperity ,so denigrated by the new Scottish secretary, seems to be doing just fine in Ireland and Norway.
Mr Murphy seems to have incurred the wrath of an Irish economist of late with his ill advised comments, not to mention uneducated and ill informed.
Makes you wonder how many lies are being told about the state of HBoS and RBS.
39

Guga II,

Rockall 16/10/2008 08:19:18
#26.

Maggie Broon is borrowing money to buy total control over the Scottish banks. Not for the benefit of Scotland, but to enable him to tighten his grip on, and undermine the Scottish economy.

Incidentally, don't you think it would be a good idea, as well as showing some honesty, if people, such as yourself, would, when they comment on Scottish matters, let the rest of us know that they are English?
40

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/10/2008 08:19:24
39 Queen D
Why are you tirading on about Labour part comments to me when all I said was that if you insert comments in quotaion marks they have to be accurate. I was not defending the Labour party. Since you ask about the Tony Blair comment, I will explain:

At the time of the 1997 referendum on devolution, Tony Blair was asked about the Scottish parliament having tax raising powers. He replied thet "even a parish council" has tax raising powers. The use of the word "even" is clearly meant to draw a contrast. Alex Salmond jumped on this to claim that Tony Blair was comparing the Scottish Parliament to a parish council when it is clear that he was drawing a contrast rather than a comparison. This has now been embellished to Rodster's false attribution of a quotation.

In fact, Holyrood had not been built and the Scottish Parliament wwas not in existence when Tony Blair made the comment so his attribution is quite clearly fabricated.
41

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 16/10/2008 08:20:39
You conspiracy theorists really are on the loony fringe.

This crisis is world wide. How likely is it that all governments have colluded to bring it about so that the UK union can be saved?

Talk about drawing the wrong conclusion from the evidence! Or are you really secretly Unionists trying to undermine the SNP case?

If SNP bases its case on such fragile logic and minds then we really are in deep shengis.
42

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/10/2008 08:22:17
40 Guga
"Incidentally, don't you think it would be a good idea, as well as showing some honesty, if people, such as yourself, would, when they comment on Scottish matters, let the rest of us know that they are English?"

Please do not attempt to lecture me on "honesty" when you make false assertions such as this.
43

Ugly George,

16/10/2008 08:25:39
40 Guga
"Maggie Broon is borrowing money to buy total control over the Scottish banks. Not for the benefit of Scotland, but to enable him to tighten his grip on, and undermine the Scottish economy"

Wrong I'm afraid. He is not buying "total" control. Under his plan there would be a majority shareholding in one bank and a minority in another. Please get your facts right before you make assertions.
44

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 16/10/2008 08:28:35
#42 "This crisis is world wide. How likely is it that all governments have colluded to bring it about so that the UK union can be saved?"

Oh, pay attention, you tiresome dolt. Nobody's saying that. People are saying, with considerable grounds, that Brown has capitalised on the situation in a way deliberately designed to undermine the SNP.

Heck, when even arch-Labour mouthpiece The Scotsman is saying the merger is a bad plan, something must be REALLY fishy about it.
45

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/10/2008 08:37:21
38 Rev
"Did you not bother to read the story?"
Yes I did. Did you. Did you read what was there or are you merely accepting the inference of the article.

Notice that the chap from the FSA said and what he didn't say. Alex Neil has deliberately misquted him.
46

Venachar,

16/10/2008 08:41:59
Went to the cinema and watched the Stone of Destiny film last night. Simple story, well told although didn't know that the Glenfinnan viaduct was on the way to London. Must have been a precursor for Ewan Macgregors Long Way Round.
Found it hilarious that there was a mirror used in the film Haig's Markinch (Glenrothes Constituancy) that had it's location stated as being in North Britain!
It may be coincidence that it was the two Scottish Institutions that have been hardest hit.
However it is telling that even when the FSA are saying that HBOS has enough dosh and that screwing real shareholders of their dividends Mssrs Brown and Darling still insist on forcing this shotgun marriage through. Even though Brown and Co have acted like they are living on Animal Farm, if enough big guns as well as ordinary shareholder give them enough stick they might just change their minds as with the 42 day detentions.
47

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/10/2008 08:49:01
48 venahar
"However it is telling that even when the FSA are saying that HBOS has enough dosh and that screwing real shareholders of their dividends Mssrs Brown and Darling still insist on forcing this shotgun marriage through"

Please read the article. The chap from the FSA did not say that HBOS did not say that HBOS had enoughh capital to stand on its own. I do not know if that is the case or not. The capital given by the govt to HBOS and Lloyds TSB was given on the assumption that the merger will go ahead. Is the guy from the FSA saying that HBOS has enough capital if the merger goes ahead? That is different from saying it has enough capital to stand on its own.
48

Guga II,

Rockall 16/10/2008 08:56:30
#50.

So, "old chap", you are English. Why don't you limit your comments to the Guardian or similar?
49

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 16/10/2008 09:01:06
#50 "The chap from the FSA did not say that HBOS did not say that HBOS had enoughh capital to stand on its own. "

Yes he did. He said ALL banks. Since HBOS is currently still a separate bank, not merged with Lloyds TSB, it is included in that.
50

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 16/10/2008 09:04:22
#49 SMS

"a 70% state-owned HBOS"

Or the alternative, a 100% state owned Halifax and a 100% shareholder owned BOS.

Then you could merge Halifax with Northern Rock and Bradford & Bingley.

That would give you one state owned mess to deal with and not many.



51

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/10/2008 09:13:26
52 Guga
"So, "old chap", you are English. Why don't you limit your comments to the Guardian or similar?"

Why do you persist in this false assertion. Let me get your logic (or lack of it) right. Because I make points with which you disagree, I must be English. Also because I make points with which you disagree, I have no right to post on this thread.
52

Mikey,

16/10/2008 09:14:22
Why isn't the Haliban just broken up? The Halifax can go back to lending money to lost causes and the BofS can go back to doing what they know, banking!

Let's face it, the Haliban is bleeding the BofS dry! Time for an independent audit?
53

Rodster,

Glasgow 16/10/2008 09:17:01
So ugly George you accept the other quotations then as accurate .
as to Blair and his comments ,with the distortions and whoppers he told . I look forward to him taking me to court.
The point is well made they are liars and demeaning of our nation .
A plague on all their houses
54

1stEdinburgh,

Scotland 16/10/2008 09:21:22
CAN THE SCOTSMAN AND ALL SCOTTISH LOCAL AND NATIONAL NEWSPAPERS DO ALL THEY CAN TO TRY AND KEEP HBOS INDEPENDENT!
CAN WE ALL WRITE TO OUR MP/MSP TO HELP?
CAN THE SNP BRING A MOTION IN THE UK AND SCOTTISH PARLIAMENT TO THIS EFFECT FOR THE CONSERVATIVES AND LIBS (ALONG WITH ANY SANE SCOTTISH LABOUR MP/MSP) TO VOTE AND STOP THE ENFORCED MERGER FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE WHOLE OF THE UK AND NOT JUST SCOTLAND!
NEED ACTIONS NOT JUST WORDS!
55

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 16/10/2008 09:24:26
#55 A superficial opinion piece from someone who can't even spell "Labour"? What's your point?
56

Rodster,

Glasgow 16/10/2008 09:26:49
1stEdinburgh noble sentiments and desires , however realise that Brown and Darling are doing this for political reasons.
This is more to do with "saving the union" than saving Scottish jobs or institutions.
"I will do whatever is necessary to save the union" Quisling Brown
Remember the 2 million that marched against the illegal Labour Party War???
it made no difference ,all that matters is their noses in the Westminster trough.
Scottish jobs and aspirations are nothing in comparison to their desires and aspiriations
57

Ewan M,

16/10/2008 09:27:45
#25 a better way - you're wired to the moon.

I hope it's possible to save an independent HBOS, but people like a better way are way over the top. Even the external opportunist the pie man Salmond was accepting the takeover as recently as last week.

Do any Nationalist want to criticise him?...didn't think so.
58

GrahamH,

Edinburgh 16/10/2008 09:32:14
Salmond said merger was good for Scotland, although his finance spokesman did not.

Salmond also said he would stop the trams, so...
59

McMillar,

Fife 16/10/2008 09:37:00
Left with Lloyds Halifax and RB of UK. Now is a good time to stop printing Scottish bank notes as they are just more trouble than worth. There is no place for this legacy baggage and holding onto tradition. Done really well so far hasn’t it! This is just a distraction and the real issues are around our economy and future growth prospects.
60

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 16/10/2008 09:42:20
How odd to have the Scotsman arguing FOR Scotland for a change. Suddenly they think the SNP are gods and Brown is a quisling !

Long may this conversion last !
61

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 16/10/2008 10:00:11
#66 "This is all absurd brigadoonery."

Better that than your endless fearful hang-onto-Mummy's-apron-strings negativity. Got any POSITIVE, constructive suggestions as to the future of the bank? No, didn't think so.
62

Ewan M,

16/10/2008 10:01:56
#65 connaughtboy the Scotsman is not anti Scottish because it presents stories that make Salmond and the SNP look ridicoulous, they are a joke.

Get over yourself and your party.
63

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 16/10/2008 10:05:30
#69 "Complete the merger with LTSB with all possible dispatch."

That's neither positive nor constructive - it will result, for a start, in as many as FORTY THOUSAND job losses, for the sake of a merger that seems increasingly unnecessary with each passing day, and is so damaging to competition that the law has had to be specially suspended to allow it.

I hope they don't let you organise the works Christmas party if that's your idea of positive.
64

Ewan M,

16/10/2008 10:06:38
#40 Guga II thank God not everyone is dillusional as you otherwise we would be in deep trouble.
65

Rodster,

Glasgow 16/10/2008 10:08:08
How the unionists like EwanM SM et al enjoy anything that brings down Scottish self confidence .
Bet there favourite bit of landlocked water in Scotland is the Lake of Monteith.
66

Fairfax,

16/10/2008 10:09:58
KampungHighlander (13): "With a 12% coupon rate they will bleed 600 Million a Year from RBS, 420 Million a Year from HBOS and 120 Million a Year from Lloyds."

That's correct. This capital injection is itself likely to cause further bank failures in future.

"This is money that could be used to Lend to customers. You have Question the Logic of accepting Capital that costs you 12% a year when your Lending it out at 6%."

It's certainly an extremely punitive rate. Presumably the banks' view is that beggars can't be choosers: they need the cash now. I see the US coupon is 5%, so their banks are in a much better position. At 12%, it's usury (ironically).
67

Westfield Bairns,

falkirk 16/10/2008 10:16:56
Gordon Brown Anti-Scottish
The merger will go ahead for the simple reason as above. Gordon Brown loathed in Scotland, hope he visits Glenrothes for some local views on his Anti-Scottish policies
68

Ewan M,

16/10/2008 10:23:27
#72 Rodster way of the mark, isn’t a prouder Scotsman than me. I am embarrassed by people who come on here with their bile and suggest they somehow represent my country, these are mostly Nationalists.

The SNP instead of getting on with the business of government the SNP seek to create division, separatism and suspicion, hardly positive is it?
69

Calum10,

16/10/2008 10:24:08
Gordon Brown's bail out plans are unravelling after only two days, but his Anti-Scottish agenda grows apace.

Forcing through this merger in the face of grim recession does not make any sense. The task now is to save Scottish jobs, not throw them away to suit the Unionist agenda.
70

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 16/10/2008 10:25:04
#75 "The SNP instead of getting on with the business of government the SNP seek to create division, separatism and suspicion"

Empty Unionist propaganda based on nothing. In what way have they not got on with the business of government?
71

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 16/10/2008 10:25:55
if the Bank of Scotland is to survive on it's own , they must only employ over 40s .
72

Ewan M,

16/10/2008 10:26:35
#74 he may be loathed by you, but don't talk as if you talk for Scotland. As for him being anti Scottish, your completely ridiculous. In the words of the Pie man your comment is "unpardonable folly".
73

Alan B,

16/10/2008 10:27:15
Brown is a joke and should resign.

We are now in the ridiculous situation of other parties not wanting to critise the government due to negative effect it could have on any bail out. Admirable as that is, it ends up protecting the architect of much of this disaster.

74

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 16/10/2008 10:29:32
#66 SMS

If you had any knowledge of business, rather than being a grandstanding Unionist muppet, you would realize that 40% of all mergers are reckoned to be financial failures for the firms involved.

De merging Halifax by comparison would be a dawdle.

The UK Government could offer to purchase all the Mortgages Business along with the assets and liabilities that go along with that business as well as all the Halifax Branches outside Scotland for whatever that business is worth. My guess is it won't have any value at all so they could just pay a notional Pound to buy it. You could then stick as much money as it like into this money pit in return for shares.

That would leave BOS as a viable Commercial Bank.

With Halifax left to live or die based on the vagaries of the Mortgage Market and Gordon Browns largess.
75

Ewan M,

16/10/2008 10:29:35
#77 student loans, nursery care, 1000 NEW police OH retian, recruit and redeploy(THEY MADE THAT CLEAR IN THE MANIFESTO!) Reverend I point to your empty Nationalist propaganda.
76

Alan B,

16/10/2008 10:29:53
#Ewan M

I can understand you supporting the union. Different pople have different opinions.

However defending Brown is a joke. The guy is a clown who has been a disaster for the economy and brought the uk to it knees.

No matter what party or what view, the country needs to back any plan to bail us out and hope for the best. And then empty that useless excuse out the door.
77

,

16/10/2008 10:31:02
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
78

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 16/10/2008 10:33:48
#82 "student loans, nursery care, 1000 NEW police OH retian, recruit and redeploy(THEY MADE THAT CLEAR IN THE MANIFESTO!) Reverend I point to your empty Nationalist propaganda."

That's not failing to get on with the business of government. That's (debatably) not fulfilling a four-year party-political manifesto after a year and a half. What BUSINESS OF GOVERNMENT, ie running the country, have they failed to pursue?
79

Ewan M,

16/10/2008 10:35:47
#85 what a laugh....key manifesto pledges failed to be deliverd and they are still getting on with governing....woosh!!!!!
80

Ewan M,

16/10/2008 10:37:17
Alan B I'll never understand you. Like i say there is no covincing you, but try and convince Scotland with your arc of insolvancy....good luck.
81

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/10/2008 10:42:56
84 A Better Way
Who are you talking to and why have you launched a tirade that is totally unrelated to previous comments?
82

Alan B,

16/10/2008 10:43:48
#85

Remember independent assessment of meeting its labour manifesto commitments put it at 40% of its manifesto. Alhtough some of that was due to the commitments being so vague.

Part of the problem with seriously judging a government in scotland of meeting manifesto commitments depends on a few issues. We have a PR system which means that you need to compromise to get anything through. On order to get one thing through and get the backing of another party then you have to promise to meet something that is important to that other party. As that will take money someelse has to give. It is the nature of a PR system.

Also if the government gets voted down like with the Trams that takes away resources that would be otherwise spent on meeting commitments.

And then their is the question of the budget. Brown did not announce the spending for this new government until after it was elected. As such any commitments are made on the basis of what you think you will get. I do not think anyone really thought scotland would only get 0.5% in the first yr with an average of 1.4% over 3yr being the lowerest increase for the scottish parliament on record. Also effected by the fact that inflation is now 5%. To a large extent the initial 0.5% was actually a cut in real term expenditure.

Finally Brown has withheld money that would other wise have come to scotland eg the money given to english prisons should have come to scotland as barnett consequentials. So we have the ridiculous labour tactic of saying the snp are not meeting their manifesto commitments while they are withholding money in order to prevent them for doing so.
83

Guga II,

Rockall 16/10/2008 10:47:42
#71 EwanM

It may have escaped your attention, but we are in deep trouble. So I think it might be yourself that is highly delusional.
84

Alan B,

16/10/2008 10:49:04
#87 Ewan M

Did you even read what i said. Because you sure did not seem to understand it.

I was talking about the mess of the UK and did not make any point regarding independence. My point was clear and simple.

Brown has been a disaster for the UK we should kick him out. That has nothing to do with independence. That is to do with us having a disasterous chancellor who lead the country into this complete mess, and is now PM.

No matter your views on the snp that surely cannot disguise Brown has been completely incompetent. You seem to confuse Browns incompetence with the constitution.

You do not have to be a supporter independence to know Brown has been a disaster. Many unionist posters know that to.
85

Phil the Flooter,

16/10/2008 10:51:28
84, that was pretty offensive.
86

Alan B,

16/10/2008 10:51:54
Adding to my post at #89. Remember labour announced the bu