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Price rise for target drinks in booze culture crackdown



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Published Date: 18 June 2008
PRICE rises of up to 75 per cent could be imposed on some wines, spirits and beers under Scottish Government plans to tackle the country's booze culture.
But many popular drinks, including alcopops and Buckfast tonic wine, that politicians have associated with antisocial behaviour, will be unaffected.

Wide-ranging proposals to overhaul alcohol laws include setting minimum prices for drink in sup
ermarkets and off-licences, and raising the minimum age at which they can be bought in them to 21. Although the plans were welcomed by health campaigners and police, lawyers told The Scotsman that the key proposal – to impose minimum prices based on alcohol units – could fall foul of competition legislation. The Office of Fair Trading (OFT), which investigates price fixing, said it was not yet known whether Holyrood ministers would be allowed to press ahead with that.

The proposals include allowing young people to buy drink in pubs at 18, but not from supermarkets or off-licences until they are 21; imposing a 35p minimum price per unit of alcohol; and banning some promotional offers.

But the drinks and retail industry claimed the "Draconian legislation" would penalise responsible drinkers and traders.

Among the policies to tackle binge drinking, which costs Scotland £2.25 billion a year in poor health and productivity, is a new social responsibility fee paid by some retailers to cover the price of policing and cleaning up. Offers such as three-for-two pricing would also be abolished and alcohol-only checkouts created in supermarkets.

Launching a consultation yesterday, Kenny MacAskill, the justice secretary, said: "Drinking in a pub while socialising is perfectly acceptable. Buying large carry-outs and drinking on the street is not."

He said the aim was to restrict consumption – not to stop people enjoying a drink.

He claimed that many off-sales premises were "already looking for" measures such as increasing the age to buy drink – and denied they were evidence of a "nanny state".

Mr MacAskill said the social responsibility fee was a way to give licensing boards "the power to recognise that alcohol is not cost free". "It has social, economic and health costs, which should not be met by the taxpayer but by those who profit," he said. He denied off-licences were being "targeted" but rather they were being asked to recognise that they had to be responsible retailers.

The plans were welcomed by the Association of Chief Police Officers Scotland, the Royal College of Physicians of Edinburgh and the BMA Scotland.

But Colin Miller, a partner in Biggart Baillie, said minimum pricing – which Nicola Sturgeon, the health secretary, said could be brought in by amending existing legislation or by enacting new laws – would contravene EU laws which prevent anti-competitive practices.

He said: "Introducing a restriction like this in terms of what retailers can charge would be contrary to the competition rules. The European Commission would come along and say you can't do this."

Catriona Munro, EU and competition law partner at Maclay Murray & Spens, also said there could be "issues" about distorting trade and a breach of EU law.

And David Goodbrand, competition partner at Burness said minimum price fixing could have legal implications by creating a two-tier system north and south of the Border. He said: "In the same way people used to do booze cruises to France, you can see there might be those who would wish to exploit that by purchasing down south."

A spokeswoman for the Scottish Government said the proposals would be within the competence of the Scottish Parliament and officials had already met the OFT.

But the OFT said it was not clear yet if the government would be free to press ahead.

The Scottish Tories pointed out that, while some alcohol would go up in price, Buckfast and alcopops would not be affected, either because they were already expensive or because they had a low alcohol content.

Andy Kerr, a former Labour health minister, has blamed Buckfast for fuelling violence and the then Scottish Executive sought to curb its sales, while former justice minister Cathy Jamieson claimed it was directly related to a rise in antisocial behaviour.

The Federation of Small Businesses Scotland said independent retailers could shut down under yesterday's proposals while the Scottish Grocers' Federation said elements of the plans were "absurd".

Fiona Moriarty, director of the Scottish Retail Consortium, said "Draconian legislation" would not solve Scotland's alcohol problem but would "penalise the overwhelming majority of customers who consume alcohol perfectly responsibly". She added: "Why shouldn't responsible Scottish customers be able to benefit from competitively priced products as other UK citizens can?"



'Following WHO advice … and not before time'

ANALYSIS: TOM WOOD


WORLD Health Organisation advice is absolutely clear: to bring about control of alcohol consumption we have to address the price so it is fair and balanced, address the availability and then address the service provision and enforcement of the law.

What the Scottish Government is doing is not before time.

We have been too long blind to the horrendous damage alcohol is doing to us, and as young drinkers develop these habits, so the consequences become more exacerbated.

Sometimes alcoholic drinks are cheaper than water. That is nonsense. Alcohol is a special commodity. We have to treat it with care. The price has to reflect that – it is a crucially important part of the recipe for success.

Price has to be controlled carefully because if you go up too much, you can end up with a situation like in Norway where alcohol is very expensive and people end up making their own or turning medical alcohol into drinks.

The reality as regards very young drinkers is we have been too fixated by pubs when the truth is the issue lies with the off-sales and supermarkets. We have to do something about price. Offers like three-for-two are positively dangerous because they encourage people to drink more.

I agree with changing the age limit at which you can buy alcohol to 21. Some 18-19-year-olds might slip through, but we would not get very young people buying alcohol.

Alcohol-only checkouts are common sense because they recognise alcohol to be special. It's not like bread and milk, and should not be sold as such. Also, this would make it easier to check who is buying it.

It is a symbolic move but it is also a very practical suggestion.

We have a long, long way to catch up in funding, because for 25-30 years alcohol services have been neglected. What is important is the upstream investment and early intervention because that's where you stand to produce best results.

Price, availability and provision of service – the government is following the WHO advice. I take my hat off to the government for addressing it because for too long they have shied away.

Overall, I wholeheartedly support the government's approach on alcohol and I'm really glad we have finally woken up to the dangers of alcohol because it's become seriously out of balance.

• Tom Wood is former chairman of the Alcohol and Drug Action Team in Edinburgh and former Deputy Chief Constable of Lothian and Borders Police

Community enjoys benefits of pilot plan

Lindsay McIntosh


UNDERAGE drinking, and the anti-social behaviour that came with it, was no worse in Armadale than in any other Scottish community.

But Lothian and Borders Police decided the West Lothian village was as good a place as any to introduce a new weapon in the battle against booze.

Community officer Phillip McIntosh came up with a plan to restrict sales to over 21s on weekend nights – a scheme which had been successful in Cleveland.

The force won the backing of the local off-licences and the project ran for six weeks, operating between 5pm and 10pm on Fridays and Saturdays.

Mr McIntosh said stores were happy to sign up because it helped them ensure they were not selling to youngsters. It also reduced the likelihood that the front of their stores would be blighted by drunk teenagers, who might discourage evening shoppers.

The pilot scheme has been hailed as a success – although some teenagers have claimed it was still easy for them to access alcohol, either from home or friends.

Mr McIntosh said: "In the first two weeks we saw a decrease in the number of calls complaining about youths accessing alcohol.

"Vandalism was reduced. That pattern continued throughout the six weeks."

The scheme was implemented without extra police on the beat. Shopkeepers were given an emergency out-of-hours number but it was never used to report trouble.

Figures released ahead of the official end of the scheme showed there were 108 phone calls about youths in the previous two months, compared to 220 for the same period last year.

Telephoned reports of vandalism also dropped from 57 to 27, while assaults halved from 12 to six.

In the neighbouring villages of Blackridge and Westfield similar results were found, with calls down from 54 to 24 and from 14 to zero respectively

Mr McIntosh said that since the scheme ended there had been a corresponding increase in complaints.

The pilot is now being considered by the Scottish Government as a model to be rolled out across the country.

Superintendent Chris Griffiths of Lothian and Borders Police said: "The success of the scheme is dependent on the licensees buying in. However, I personally would urge a town that if they do have one business that does not want to go in, to carry on anyway."

FACT BOX

The key proposals include:

• Raising the minimum age for off-sales alcohol purchases to 21;

• Setting a minimum price at which a unit of alcohol can be sold;

• Ending "three for the price of two"-style promotions, which the government says encourages impulse buying of extra alcohol;

• A "social responsibility fee" for some alcohol retailers to help pay for the consequences of alcohol misuse and reduce the burden on the general taxpayer;

• Introducing alcohol-only checkouts in large off-sales premises, so that alcohol, like cigarettes, is thought of as a special case and not "just another product";

• Confirmation of a record £85 million increase in alcohol prevention, treatment and support services, bringing total spend to £120 million over the next three years



The full article contains 1723 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Willie,

18/06/2008 00:09:42
Sadly totally unworkable!!
We all will be nipping over the Border.
The Buses, Trains and M74 and A1 will become overun with customers off to Carlisle and Berwick. Booze cruises to Belfast and Superfast will be back with new services.
Why don't politicians realise they have the machinery but it needs investment, and stop daft, silly and unworkable ideas.
Tom Wood never the greatest expert should accept retirement and stop talking about things he knows nothing about!!
Unless of course he's looking for another job with a major public pension policing the border??
2

monkey man,

18/06/2008 00:22:25
I think its a brilliant idea and long overdue.

Alcohol is a massive healh and social problem in Scotland and alcohol drinkers should be hammered in the pocket to make them give up. Beer should be at least £5 a pint to reduce consumption and licencees selling beer or spirits to underage children should face immediate closure and a massive fine.
3

Resolutions,

18/06/2008 00:29:07
First these are ideas to try to curb/control the alcohol problem which quite frankly is out of control at present.
There seem to be plenty with NO suggestions as to how to do something about it and plenty of how to get round any ideas put forward.
Perhaps they are proud of the drunken idiots spiling around our towns and villages at weekends and sometimes weekdays too?
Perhaps they feel that this is something they wish to advertise to the rest of the world? Rangers 'fans' did quite a remarkable job on that recently. Were you proud of them?
Are you proud of the 'Brits' rolling around the gutters abroad on holiday or do you dissassociate yourself with them?
Have you been accosted by drunken youth with the foulest of language on a Sunday afternoon, taking a stroll through the park?

We do need to take a long hard look at 'oorselves' and see ourselves as others see us. Don't know about you, but this is not a bonnie picture and nothing to be proud of.

What to do?
Well there is an awful lot of very cheap booze far too easily available.
Licencing laws are not enforced hard enough and fiercely enough.
There are far too many el cheapo off -licences who could not care less.
The units business is far too complicated- what is in those giant wine glasses? No-one who knows anything about wine, drinks it like that.
Stop 'glamourising' heavy drinking in the media.
Get realistic pricing and control outlets by rigourous policing.
Be hard, very hard on drunks in the public places - they'll get the message.
Start thinking of ways to change this ghastly image and make places safe at all times and not ruled by drunken idiots.
4

Willie,

18/06/2008 00:34:20
#4
Nobody doubts the extent of the problem.
Sadly policing has failed.
Whether because of an inept police force, or regulating authority I know not.
But replacing one useless and unworkable system with another won't cure the problem.
Education would appear the best hope, but who is going to do it?
5

Senga Jean,

18/06/2008 00:39:36
I find Tesco and Asda quite irresponsible in having booze as loss leaders all around their stores. They should lose their license unless they act responsibly. Some countries have strictly regulated bottle shops and that is what will happen here. Off sales licensees do not have to control consumption like pubs and hotels are required to by law. (Yes we know pubs that are not too responsible and sell alcohol to drunks but they are breaking the law and should be prosecuted)
6

Resolutions,

18/06/2008 00:50:00
#6 Why has policing failed?
Lack of political will?
Lack of police?
Why o why when places have been proved to have flouted the rules, have they not been prosecuted?
Lack of court time? Or will?
And education is the 'opt out' for too many as as you point out who is going to do it?
They'll get education fast enough if they find the off-licence is closed; if they themselves are whacked for drunken behaviour etc.
Where there is a will there is a way. The WILL must come first.
7

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 18/06/2008 01:00:14

They don't have a Clue!, Do They,?

Our 'Teens' and Drinking Population, will not be put of by this!

They will still get their Booze, by, 'Hook or by Crook'!

Everyone else will suffer for the Few!

And the "Few" wont 'Suffer' atall!

8

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 18/06/2008 01:00:41
Sword of Damocles stuff, this. Just back from Benidorm and booze is aplenty.

Aye, but wait a minute, why not make it simple? This sometimes you are old enough and sometimes you are not is too complicated for the target market.

Free condoms with every major purchase would lead to more responsible drinking too. Hmmmmmmmmm?

Feel sorry for the SNP as they try to circumnavigate Brussels and Westminster but there again I feel sorry for the idiots who vote for that perpetuation.
9

Statsman,

Edinburgh 18/06/2008 01:01:49
Tax... Ban... Tax... Ban...
10

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 18/06/2008 01:11:36

And let me tell you all,.'History Repeats'!!!


Alphonse "Al" Capone was one of the most famous U.S. gangsters during the 1930s, a Chicago-based boss involved in illegal gambling, bootlegging (illegal alcohol) and prostitution. Capone got his start in New York, working as a thug and bouncer (where he got the three scars that spawned his nickname, "Scarface"). He moved to Chicago in 1919 and quickly moved up in the ranks of Johnny Torrio's gang. Capone was known for his smarts and brutality, and by 1925 he was in charge of one of Chicago's biggest criminal gangs. It was Capone's men who gunned down seven rivals in 1929 in what was called the "St. Valentine's Day Massacre." Arrested many times over the years, Capone was famously pursued by federal agent Eliot Ness and ended up finally going to jail for income tax evasion in 1931. After serving eight years in federal prisons, Capone was released on good behavior (and because he'd been suffering from syphilis-related ailments). Capone retired to his estate in Florida and died in 1947 of heart failure.
11

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 18/06/2008 01:14:42

'Never mind about the,,'Drug Barons'

We are about to give Birth to Worse!
12

Allan(handofgod137),

18/06/2008 01:14:45
There's a far simpler solution, when wee wayne or kylie gets caught engaging in drunken hooliganism, or caught in possession of alcohol, instead of just giving them a telling off, and often a free ride home, take them down the station, record their details, then force their parent to come and collect them. Then pass the details on to the relevant department and stop their child benefit for 3 months. Repeat as necessary until the parents get the message and start taking responsibility.
13

Edward,

18/06/2008 01:15:25
Thought Gordon Brewer was a disgrace last night. He kept attacking Kenny MacAskill, accusing him of creating a nanny state, harped on about the poor students. Brewer failed to grasp that underage drinking is a very big problem in Scotland.Brewer kept asking inane questions and then proceeded to interupt. Thought for a moment that Brewer had been at the juice! But not once did Brewer himself suggest alternatives to tackling the problem, to which Kenny MacAskill could talk about. The Scottish Government have put forward there suggestion for tackling the problem, it might be draconian, but until someone comes up with something better, ite the only game in town. Ross Finnie for the Libdems was also asked about the SNP proposal and as per usual appeared out of touch, stating that kids did not sneak off with bottles of Buckfast or strong cider to drink themselves silly. Where has he been?? He obvioulsy has not seen the regular reports on kids with drink problems and the pictures of kids on park benches or street corners downing Cider and buckfast
14

Willie,

18/06/2008 01:16:13
I have to say that successive governments have so badly failed to curb illegal drugs that they've turned to drink.
They tried to tax Tobacco out of use. Another failure!!
Heating for the home? We soon won't be able to afford that.
Fuel for the Car. Soon taxed beyond our means.
Is there anything good for us they won't tax??
15

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 18/06/2008 01:30:10
Willie ~16,

Your comment = 'Hence the Shame of Scotland'

Acting Like,..'Headless Chickens' in a Panic!

Sad 'Fact' IS it Wont make a,..'Hoot of Difference'!
16

Symmachus,

Rome 18/06/2008 01:37:42
#2 Monkey Man,
Yup, a completely brilliant idea. But, why not just pass laws banning being drunk, or being fat, or being ugly, or acting stupidly or simply making all Scots healthy, wealthy and wise in the New Utopia? Could it be because legislation rarely can solve social and health problems? It is remarkable that a Justice Secretary is leading the charge here, because passing more laws will not solve drunkeness, alcoholism, drug addiction or poor diets. Kenny might as well pass a law making chips more expensive hoping this will help solve obesity problems - yup really brilliant.
17

floridian,

florida 18/06/2008 03:21:11
I LIVE IN AMERICA. WHERE ALCOHOL CANNOT BE PURCHASED BY ANYONE UNDER 21YEARS OF AGE. THERE AREB FEW PROBLEMS WITH UNDER TEENAGERS AND THE SYSTEM IS EASY TO POLICE. WHY DON'T THEY DO THAT IN SCOTLAND. BY THE WAY I AM A SCOT.
18

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 18/06/2008 05:53:17
Rather than tackle the problem we have just learned that tax is to be raised again .... government will never miss an opportunity to grab more money - always treating the symptoms and never the cause.
19

weeshooie1,

Wollongong 18/06/2008 06:06:30
In the last couple of years since reading 'The Scotsman' online, I have never read of any reports against Buckfast except those from Scotland.
20

Itchy,

18/06/2008 06:22:36
"PRICE rises of up to 75 per cent could be imposed on some wines, spirits and beers under Scottish Government plans to tackle the country's booze culture.
But many popular drinks, including alcopops and Buckfast tonic wine, that politicians have associated with antisocial behaviour, will be unaffected."

#20 is right. This is just a tax grab that Labour would be proud of.
21

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 18/06/2008 06:25:54
One of the basic laws of economics dictates that the higher the price of a commidity the lower the consumption of it will be. It should therefore follow that alcoholic consumption should drop under this initiave but it won't.

Restricting price increases to certain product lines will only push drinkers to other drinks where they can get maximum 'bang for their buck'.

There is strong evidence pointing towards this in Australia. Recently the governement here massively increased duties on pre-mixed drinks/alcopops in an attempt to curb a youth drinking culture which some think is out of control. This has changed drinkers behaviour - they have simply switched to other drinks to get the same swally/dollar ratio!. I know this for a fact because as a student we used to frequently go on a saturday afternoon mission in Stirling town centre checking out 'offie-offers'- the mission was quite simply to get pi$$ed for as little as possible.

As sure as price effects demand consumers will equally compare and maximise the buying power of their money, this laudable initiave will fail as drinkers move to other drinks that provide more 'value'.

The only way to make this idea work is to target, universally, drinks under a certain cost. I'm sure that the good monks of Buckfast Abbey would recognise the social reasons on targetting there particular 'tonic' (ahem).

The government are on the right track but need to be bolder. One thing is obvious though - the SNP have a much higher regard for the health of the people than the last bunch. Initiaves like this don't win votes, especially in areas that the SNP need to break into. So although initially flawed this idea shows political bravery and cannot in any way,shape or form be said to be populist - it is a sign of mature government, it needs to broader and bolder.
22

calum,

18/06/2008 06:38:04
Why didn't Wood do something about this when he was in a position to with the Police? No, he stripped out the police supervision of Licensing legislation, ingratiated himself with the trade (including his best pal and disgraced purveyor drink to under-agers Tom Ponton) and now uses the "put the price up" mantra as the panacea to the problem.
Proper enforcement of existing legislation to deal with those selling alcohol to under-agers, more robust examination of the need to sell alcohol from such a wide range of comparitively unregulated outlets and more stringent penalties, both in Court and Licensing Committees, against those who do break the law.
23

DeniseX,

18/06/2008 06:59:32
It started with the smoking ban and we all knew that our controllers wouldn't stop there. Obesity is next.
24

Anne,

Eaglesham 18/06/2008 07:08:08
Cut the number of off-licences.
Allow alcohol-only shops to hold these licences.Any shop found selling to underage drinkers to have its stock confiscated.
That should concentrate their minds wonderfully!
25

an interested party,

18/06/2008 07:12:41
at least they have left buckie alone
clearly becuase it is the favoured tipple of
the clergy. WTF

och well its now just about viable to run a still again
26

nuffnuff,

Edinburgh 18/06/2008 07:21:01
Later on we are going to raise the price of food as well to prevent people from becoming obese! Then even later we will put up the price of ....
27

jamtart,

Beechboro Western Australia 18/06/2008 07:37:20
I drink responsibly,why should I and many others pay more for our bevvy cause some wee ned behaves like a tw@t.Long may Asda and the other big chains continue with competition,3 cartons for 20 quid, great keep them coming and batter the sh#t out the wee b@stards who misbehave.Asda is one of the great pleasures of coming back for a holiday to Sconnie Bottland,cheap fags and booze and of course wonderful people,except for the pollies,do-gooders and they wee b@stards.
28

Scotish Exile,

18/06/2008 07:41:17
just another tax for the majority to pay and for the politicians to waste, when will be stand up and say "enough is enough"
29

scottish person,

paisley 18/06/2008 07:42:41
Totally unworkable. Another tax to make up for the low income from smoking being banned.
I cant believe that Buckie is being left alone.
Get the police out of their offices and into the parks and streets and arrest the drunks. Forget Bliars yellow card system and give them a night to dry out. I have watched booze britain and the drink problems are much worse in england.
30

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 18/06/2008 07:45:36
It's time the SNP changed their acronym to SNSP (aka Scotland's National Socialist Party) and issued the uniforms with black shiny boots which have, no doubt, been kept aside for the declaration of full independence.

Proper policing would have a dramatic impact almost immediately but what would Tom Wood know about that; I've yet to meet anyone who was impressed by him in his past (police) life. Combine that with education, faith in the development of a sensible cafe culture and the elimination of the graphic images which glorify alcohol - well that might just take a while but there will be no quick fixes. These laws will make no real difference.

In addition, try prosecuting so-called celebrities for drug-taking plus drunk and disorderly behaviour).
31

Paul Spencer,

Glasgow 18/06/2008 07:49:56
So the sins of the few are paid for by the majority. Has Kenny and Nicola said where this extra revenue is going? Perhaps we are going to have an extra Bobby on the street, the key to this argument lies in policing and supervision not some indiscriminate price hike that will effect responsible drinkers. I hope the price hike fails on competition grounds, and the SNP start to grapple with the problem and put the 1000 extra police on the ground rather than giving us powder puff percy promises and mealy mouth platitudes to deal with this problem.
32

Unimpressed one,

18/06/2008 07:51:27
#21, "In the last couple of years since reading 'The Scotsman' online, I have never read of any reports against Buckfast except those from Scotland."

That may be because like the majority of politicians, the media are out of touch with the real world. Buckfast is the booze of choice with under age drinkers. You only have to look at the streets of West Lothian to quickly realise that - the empties are everywhere.
33

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 18/06/2008 07:55:28
I've made this point before on the topic and I notice others have too. It's 40 minutes to Berwick from here and you don't even have to go all the way in; Morrison's is beautifully accessible. Use a reasonably large van or trailer and 'booze-cruising' would be economically viable. No doubt, there are enterprising members of our communities who are considering that very option.

Up north ? I could see the revival of home-brewing and wine-making or, far worse, 'moon-shining' with all its inherent dangers.
34

,

18/06/2008 07:55:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
35

Pracitical,

Leiden 18/06/2008 08:02:23
What a pathetically weak reason for hitting the general public with price increases and providing more profits for the manufactures and government.

When will UK TRY to learn that people need to take responsibility for themselves and their actions. Why does the whole of Britain always want someone else to decide for them and "stop" them from doing wrong. Have you not learnt any values from your parents or grandparents.?

Guys and girls - wake up and use the common senses and backbone that you seem to have totally lost in UK.
No wonder China is emerging as a global leader.
36

Tracy C,

Aberdeen 18/06/2008 08:06:49
How bloody stupid! Why should the sensible drinker be penalised for the numpties who drink too much!

All that is going to happen is you will buy your booze online and the delivery charge will be cheaper than the additional costs the Scottish Government have added on or for those near the border, they'll cross over to England!

It like rewinding back to the days of the booze cruise!
37

missing home,

la verne 18/06/2008 08:06:52
Like others have mentioned, I believe this is just an excuse to tax. People who abuse alcohol,as opposed to people who have abused it and I'm pretty sure that includes a large percentage of us at one time or another, the never again crowd, will find a way to get it. I grew up in Scotland (50's- 60's)when desperate cases were drinking meths and all kinds of weird stuff, hair concoctions eg. Seriously, do we want a return to that?
So the answer is to make more expensive the stuff that problematic people probably wouldn't buy anyway??

Please, SNP, educate, coe down harder on poor parenting and crime, forget raising prices on hooch, won't work, gauranteed.
38

,

18/06/2008 08:17:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
39

Langenburger,

18/06/2008 08:27:37
More ridiculous machinations from our one man/one policy administration.
If an issue doesn't merit Mr S then we get one of his third rate lackeys and their third rate un joined up thinking.
40

sodajerk,

18/06/2008 08:27:53
another numpty broon tax hike.

#19 No problems in Florida with teenagers?

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/10/girl.fights/

Results 1 - 10 of about 338,000 for teenage crime in florida.
41

Xena - Warrior Princess,

18/06/2008 08:31:13
#41 It will soon be the case that you CAN'T afford to waste money on petrol never mind drink. They also want a different queue in the supermarkets, are they trying the same as the smoking ban, ostracise and marginalise people. Next there will be a separate queue for those who buy junk food and I can just see the day when anyone weighing over 10 stone have to wait in a different queue.
42

thinking,

Scotland 18/06/2008 08:31:40
#14 & 19
Both good, sensible ideas
43

frhugh,

Edinburgh 18/06/2008 08:41:35
Raising the age limit in off-licences will have a beneficial effect. The evidence is there to prove it.
Increasing the cost decreases the demand. Proven fact. But this does not go the real causes of Scotland's relationship with alcohol. A cultural revolution is required, which will take time, but I applaud the Scottish Government for actually doing something to confront the problem. Educating parents and children seems like a good idea, and creating 'bottle-shops as they do in Australia is a good idea too. There are far, far too many alcohol outlets in Scotland, and this must be addressed.
44

subrosa,

18/06/2008 08:43:01
Rather sad that most of the comments are negative with very few posters giving a solution. Seems like most would just like our alcohol problem to continue 'because it affects the good'. Waken up. Do you really think spending £2 billion a year on alcohol related problems is ok? Something has to be done and the SNP government should be given credit for proposing something rather than like the last lot who just enjoyed sitting round tables talking about it.

I think we ought to built more cells and stick the drunks in for 24 hours. They may have time for reflection then. Treating them as ill by rushing them to hospitals doesn't get the message across. I know of 4 youngsters locally who boast about being in A & E many times over. It's become a badge of honour. If they need medical treatment then give it to them and as soon as they walk out the hospital door slap them in a cell. Next charge them with drunk and disorderly. See how often they boast about having a criminal record for drunkenness. Not often.
45

Guga II,

Rockall 18/06/2008 08:59:37
That total waste of space, drinker and football hooligan, Kenny MacAskill, is the same idiot that doesn't want to gaol anyone under the age of 18, regardless of whether they are violent neds and thugs.

Now he wants to punish everyone for the behaviour of a small number of drunken neds and thugs.

MacAskill can't help himself though. He was brainwashed when he was a Labour Party man, and has to push though totalitarian measures.

It is time he realised that all that needs to be done is to enforce existing legislation, as well as making the parents of the neds and nedettes responsible for their behaviour.

Once we get our independence, there are going to be a lot of people like myself who are going to stop voting for the SNP if they continue to allow people like MacAskill to have any say in running the country.

46

Liz,

Edinburgh 18/06/2008 09:03:48
Do these idiots not realise that simply increasing the price of something more often than not does nothing to chance peoples behaviour.
We currently have record high fuel prices but I do not know anyone who is really cutting back on driving.

Someone has already pointed out that if this came in everyone will be off to Carlisle to stock up - I will.

The root cause of the problem is not cost, it is a society in which getting drunk when 13 is seen as grown up and a "cool" thing to do. We need a cultural change not just yet another increase in taxes. If cost were the real issue why do we not see the same problems in the majority of Europe where alchol is far cheaper than here?
47

 Ayrshire Scot™,

18/06/2008 09:11:45
49. Liz quite right on price. I don't think levels of smoking in the UK are markedly different to some countries where tobacco tax and prices are 30-60% lower for ciggarrettes. Penalising everyone to address a problem of a minority seems the wrong way to go.
48

missing home,

la verne 18/06/2008 09:13:20
Floridian. et al, so would you rather meet a drunk or someone who can legally own a fire arm in a dark alley at night?
49

JayJay,

Right here 18/06/2008 09:13:37
We already have laws which forbid purchasing alchohol if you are under 18. We already have laws making it illegal to drink in the streets. I believe Local Authorities can withdraw licences from pubs and clubs where there is repeated acts of violence.
Given that all of these measures have been such a resounding success (hardy-har-har) what on earth makes the Government believe that more laws and more tax will make a blind bit of difference.
I see youths everywhere flouting the drink in public places law. I don't see cops lifting them. I know of many stores selling quality products such as Mad Dog 20/20 and other vin toniques who do not give a monkeys about ID....I have seen them selling rocket fuel to already boozed up neds. And you didn't need to be a brain surgeon to know which pubs in Glasgow attracted the sort of young crowd you'd sooner avoid at 11pm on a Friday night.
It would be nice if, for once, measures on the statute books could be enforced. To stare at their abject failure then propose more of the same is just ludicrous.
50

Sedov,

Scotland 18/06/2008 09:18:14
Like the LIT this is another ill thought out proposal by the SNP who really are the pits and Kenny Mccaskill defence of his proposal was easy meat for the BBC newsnight last night. Its ludicrous that under these proposals a 20 year old can go into a pub and get a drink but not buy one at a supermarket -it makes Scotland a laughing stock especially with young visitors to our country. However, I am in favour of raising prices for cheaper brands in the supermarkets etc. Labour are sitting on the fence but are aware of the SNP weakness on this and will vote against it, if ever comes to a vote as the Lib Dems seem to have a more sensible approach to Scotlands booze culture. Its the system we live under that causes so much despair in Scotland and the world and the youth see no real future - we must change it as things are getting worse and no amount of tinkering at the edges, like this proposal, will make it bettter.
51

missing home,

la verne 18/06/2008 09:26:20
Liz, while I kind of agree with you,

"The root cause of the problem is not cost, it is a society in which getting drunk"
I think the birth to grave welfare system has much to answer for
when 13 is seen as grown up and a "cool" thing to do..
I don't think it really is, I think it's what the hell else is there, and, maybe, it was guid enough for ma faither?
52

Liz,

Edinburgh 18/06/2008 09:46:44
#55
"If anyone has any better ideas, then let them be known."

As someone has said earlier, simply enforcing existing laws would be a good place to start.
53

ColinMz,

Edinburgh 18/06/2008 09:47:51
This proposal is rediculous - in this country alcohol is taxed at much higher levels than in most other countries, so the price of it is higher than in most other countries. And why should the majority who do not abuse alcohol suffer because of the minority who do? The politicians just want to be able to say "Look what we have done". Tackling the root causes of the problem would be too expensive and well beyond the capabilities of the politicians. But the problem of drunken loutish behaviour will not go away - those who want to behave this way will find the money as drug addicts do to fund their habits. In fact, price rises might even cause some acohol abusers to turn to other substances for a hit.
54

ColinMz,

Edinburgh 18/06/2008 09:49:38
#59 I mean "ridiculous". Please excuse spelling.
55

Richard Lionheart,

18/06/2008 09:55:55
#9 Quite right.

Sadly this is modern politics. Take action which makes it look as if you are concerned and doing something. It is all about appearances.

The upside for government is it increases tax revenue (or in Scotland’s case Charge revenue) as the Scottish Parliament have no tax raising powers.

Governments answer to everything is Tax, Fine or Charge.

Government already has the power to deal with the problem which has given rise to this furore, but have failed to use it. (If the prisons are full they can’t put anymore in) so the alternative is to “tax”

So Jock Mctavish returning from a hard days work on his minimum wage has to pay more for his” relaxing” can of lager. Meantime he subsidises the consumption of Alcohol in the Scottish Parliament, Bute House and at Westminster.

Perhaps the first thing that should be done is to make these places alcohol free, not full of free alcohol!
56

ianH,

Balerno 18/06/2008 09:56:33
15 Edward: Thought Gordon Brewer was a disgrace last night. He kept attacking Kenny MacAskill.

Good for him, between MacAskill and the Labour spokesperson made Ross Finnie look competent and reasonable, no mean feat. I don't think MacAskill answered any of the questions made to him. He deserved a harder grilling.

Much is made of the two billion costs, Does any one know how much duty is raised by alcohol sales? I know the SNP don't get this, but it would be useful to know. PS where is Alex during this is he keeping his head down?
57

Pipe smoker,

Montrose 18/06/2008 09:59:17
I agree particularly with the messages from "Dave from Barra" and "Labour Sleaze Reporter". Naturally any right-thinking person deplores outrageous , anti-social behaviour; there are existing laws, which should be enforced. However, regarding the proposals tabled, there is a clear incompatibility between raising the age for purchasing alcohol outwith pubs and restaurants to this mystical figure of 21, and laudable aspirations to lower the voting age to 16,(when you can of course already marry). I would also mention, inter alia, the 'minor' details that you can serve in HM Armed Forces from 17+ and be full stakeholders in society from 18. My extensive experience in education and in the armed forces has made it manifest to me that the more responsibility you give to people, the more positively they respond. Analogies with Norway are inept: the repressive anti-drinking legislation in Norway (a country I know intimately) is an apparently untouchable legacy of early 20th century puritanism and it is hugely unpopular; indeed, home-distilling (of very high-quality products I may say!) is very common. The blanket age-21 rule in the USA is also very unpopular outwith puritanical circles (which should be of no account) and is widely circumvented. Does Mr McAskill want this? Incidentally, to head off this oppressive and illiberal nonsense, there may mileage in looking at Human Rights legislation: could banning off-sales to responsible 18-20 year-olds be deemed a collective punishment? Has Mr McAskill considered this? How many 18-20 year olds will vote for his party in the next General election if the age-21 limit is enacted?
58

expat in the sun,

La Oliva 18/06/2008 09:59:44
I live in Fuerteventura - where booze is much - much cheaper - the drinking age here is also 18 - but there is not a problem - children are brought up in a culture where drinking moderately is normal - everyone will have a glass of wine or two with a meal - kids are introduced to wine - albeit watered down - from around 12 years of age - and you very rarely see Spanish, French,Italian, Dutch etc teenagers throwing up in the gutter - lying comatose on the street - or being carried home by their pals - that is perogative of the Brits and the Scandanavians - both regions where strong calvanistic attitudes to drink either still exist or have done in the recent past - and where drink is very expensive.

Raising the price and penalising the majority because of the irrisponsibility of the few is outrageous.

It is just another synical way to extort cash - the legislation to control this behavior already exist - use it - get the Police to arrest and prosecute the miscreants - this and education are the only way to change peoples attitudes.
59

AJ Fife,

18/06/2008 10:01:24
At last, a party that has the welfare of the Scottish people at its heart!

Sensational decisions by a sensational government.

Please take note all you labour voters. This is what a government is meant to do.....
60

Publius,

London 18/06/2008 10:19:18
#52 JayJay
#56 Liz

Agree your posts. The government and police should enforce existing laws. Selling alcholc to underage people, drunken behaviour in public etc are crimes with penalties.
(A) Some aspects of the MacAskill plan are ludicrous. (1) Under EU rules no state can fix minimum prices. Period. (2)We cannot send soldiers send soldiers to die at 18, but stop them from buying alcohol.
(B) The attack on Buckfast is silly too. Buckfast ABV is 15 per cent. This low for fortified wine: sherry, port, martini, cinzano etc are usually 16 or 17 per cent. A great many non-fortified wines are now sold at 12 or 13 per cent. Buckfast is a fashion among some Scottish youth. It will go out of fashion sooner or later.
(C) Some of today's comments about European countries are off the mark. The Scandinavian countries, France and Spain all have problems with alcoholism. France used to have one of the worst rates of alcoholism in Europe. The French government has managed to reduce alcohol consumption to below British levels by putting warning labels on wine bottles, banning alcohol in many works canteens and leading a campaign to make wine unfashionable.
61

Rickie,

18/06/2008 10:21:23
Why doesn't MacAskill use his energies to get rid of the causes of dispair causing a high proportion of cases of abusive drinking.

Oh hang on that's more difficult isn't it, just take the easy way and tax it more heavily so they can't afford it! That should cure all the social problems, shouldn't it?
62

Lost in Africa ,

18/06/2008 10:21:36
Tax Tax Tax
Thats all politicians can think about. Off sales only for the over 21's fine, but raising the prices will never help. Why should responsible adults be punished? We need to look at countries like Spain where the booze is cheaper yet the locals are not drunk and spewing and find out why. I believe it is attitude and education.
63

Craig Cockburn,

Linlithgow 18/06/2008 10:22:40
I just wish they would normalise drinking for responsible people. So if I want to buy a drink on a Sunday morning because maybe I'm having lunch with the minister after going to church, why shouldn't I?

I don't mind controls on the irresponsible, but those of us who drink responsibly should have access to sensibly priced booze without trolley cordons on a Sunday morning telling us we're too naughty.
64

EK,

18/06/2008 10:23:53
Can some one explain to me in clear English why the police cannot arrest, then fine or imprison loutish drunks and or the pubs and clubs that serve them alcohol when they are already drunk? To fine the parents of those under 18? To dock benefits? There are existing laws to deal with this, right? Aren't there enough police? Enough lawyers, sufficient court time or prison spaces? Is it cheaper to have ineffectual council cleaners come along every night and half-heartedly clear away the broken glass, vomit, discarded food and cigarette ends (this by the way does out tourism industry no favours)? Is it cheaper and more convenient in the long-run for politicians to ignore the insidious and destructive effect of alcohol abuse on our society? Can we not save money by getting rid of pointless (and frequently rude) council and government employees that shuffle papers around ad infinitum? It may sound simplistic but don't we really we just need only a few decision makers and people sitting in offices, but lots of police, lots of cleaners (for our filthy untidy streets) and for a time more legal staff to prosecute until the problem is banished? And a public to unite against this problem? Can we not have adverts to discourage people not to blight the lives of others by anti-social behaviour? Who stands up for the rights of the law-abiding citizen?
65

nick prince,

warrington 18/06/2008 10:28:31
In one of his books, Naked Lunch, William Burroughs looks into drug taking and says broadly that enforcement of drug laws never works. He then introduces a concept called the algebra of need. As long as people in a society perceive a need for drugs, and in this case, alcohol abuse, then no enforcement will work. Why are people so keen on getting hammered? This surely must be the first port of call in an enquiry into alcohol abuse?

Le Chatelier's priciple (I think) states that the more you constrain a system, the more the system will work against the constraint. It's an idea from science of course, so it probably doesn't work on humans
66

LesD,

Kirkcaldy 18/06/2008 10:39:50
It is about time omething was done about health issues n this country, Scotland does not have the "sick man of Europe" tag for nothing.

Yes it is tme the price on some alcohol was increased, it is ridiculous that a can of lager costs less than bottled water.

I am sure that Asda's and the rest will still sell cases of beer 2 for £20 etc, since your average 15yr old is unlikely to have £20 to spend on two cases, also it is unlikely a supermarket would allow them to buy it anyway.

As for booz cruises to Berwick or wherever, I doubt again the acerage 15 year old would be able to drive that far.

Having said that though, alcohol needs to be removed from supermarket shelves and sold through a seperate counter in all shops.

Any shop found selling alcohol to underagers should looses thier license on a permanent basis.

Lastly, I take it no one has noticed that Asda will not sell to under 21s and age check under 25s?

Cheers
Les
67

Edward,

18/06/2008 10:42:06
#69 Rickie
Instead of being critical, why not come up with suggestions on how to tackle alcolsm in Scotland in general and under age feral kids that drink cheap booze?
68

Gdgy,

dundy 18/06/2008 10:43:14
Embarassing to hear wee Nicola bring out the statement that some alcohol is cheaper than water...this illogical miscomparison is irrelevant and sums up SNP "thinking".
They KEY thing is to increase the real cost of alcohol to levels closer to the past - alcohol is too cheap and we Scots suffer for that - the idea of increasing certain types of alcohol and not others is a administrative nightmare and probably breaks a number of anti-competition laws....
69

Edward,

18/06/2008 10:43:15
#67 The Genuine Mario Antoinette
Instead of being critical, why not come up with suggestions on how to tackle alcolsm in Scotland in general and under age feral kids that drink cheap booze?
70

AJ Fife,

18/06/2008 10:43:55
#75,

Some of those clergy lads can shift the drink. But Craig better watch oot, the after service drinks could lead to an uncomfortable attempted fumble by the randy Rev!!!!

You all know what those boys are like.....
71

ruthie,

west lothian 18/06/2008 10:44:18
all credit to the snp government for finally doing something about this problem and i do think it will result in a healthier, saner Scotland. And may i suggest that if you are the type of person who is going to go on regular booze cruises south of the border, then you might want to look a bit closer at your own relationship with alcohol.agree totally with the comments about making parents more responsible for the teenage drunks too, but how do you do that?
72

AntiPCman,

18/06/2008 10:44:59
Although I am not a SNP supporter, as a Chairman of a Licensing Board, I welcome the announcement by this Government on the ideas of controlling sales of alcohol in off licences and supermarkets. One does not go into a controlled environment like a pub and normally order a crate of lager or cider - it is portioned through the serving of a bottle or glass. This reduces the opportunity for binge drinking, often increases the price of the drink and provides a better environment for responsible drinking.
The price per unit of alcohol has been far too low on drinks like strong cider and which is sold at a cheaper price than bottled water. The 'loss leader' sales of alcohol in supermarkets has got worse and more irresponsible over the last few years.
I applaud the strong action by this Government on 'having a go' at a subject which always brings out unnecessary hysteria in both the retail trade and some parts of the media. Scotland has a problem with drink - full stop - and we have to address it. These bold ideas are worth being given a shot.
73

Edward,

18/06/2008 10:46:16
#78 Gdgy,dundy
First you accuse Nicola Sturgeon stating that some alohol is cheaper than bottled water (which is true)
the you go on stateing that alcohol should increase in price. Would you like to make your mind up
Or are you saying Nicola is correct and that some Alcohol drinks should increas in price?
74

Keith Lagden,

18/06/2008 10:50:52
Typical Government idea "Stupid"
75

sonofhamish,

edinburgh 18/06/2008 10:58:50
Its good to see that SNP are good for something. Wholeheartedly applaud this, in fact I would argue it doesn't go far enough but its a good start.

I also think we need to start prosecuting shopkeepers more and also fining parents of drunk kids who are under 18.

76

Langenburger,

18/06/2008 10:59:13
Scotland had a chance to rewrite our laws on alcohol but guess what - we bottled that and our SNP administration seems hell bent on continuing to screw up.
Our imminent new act is a hotch potch of muddled thinking and cow towing to pressure groups.
Now the SNP seem hell bent on continuing making policy on the hoof without any effective strategy apart from a penchant for hearing their own voices and an eye on the soundbite.
It is nonsense that 18 year olds can drink in a bar, die for their amalgamated regiment in uniform, procreate from their allocated state home, and sit on a jury but not buy a bottle of wine at Tescos.
It is also nonsense that our off sales don't sell by law on Sunday mornings because a sabbatical minority have pressurised against it.
It is further nonsense that we currently have all the facilities to stop alcohol sales to under 18s, to stop street drinking etc but don't do enough about it.
Our diddy SNP politicians really are clueless and as the old French saying goes Plus ca change!
With some Giuliani type zero tolerance using our existing legislation and safeguards - things would change and fast!


77

Edward,

18/06/2008 11:00:03
What I would like to know is this;
The problem with Alcholism in Scotland is not new as is underage feral kids drinking cider on street corners is also not new
So why wasnt this tackled from the very first Scottish Adminstration in 1999 and subsequent years???
Now that the SNP are in power and are having a go at trying to tackle, what is in fact a disgrace and shame of Scotland. All the armchair critics come out with hysterics complaining of 'nanny state', 'restricting freedom to choose' (the latter was a classic from Gordon Brewer who stated that we all should have the freedom to choose to get very drunk,what he omitted to say was become very drunk and become a burden on the nation, which costs Scotland £ 2 BILLION a year to deal with Alcohol related problems)
Scotland really needs to waken up. Im fed up with the so called Scots, who think there is nothing wrong or that think its a simple case of beefing up the police to take more action. Scots need to look outside Scotland to other countries in Europe, such as France, Italy, Spain and Portugal and see how other countries are responsible when it comes to drinking. And consider that in these countries wine and some other alcohol is cheaper than in Scotland, yet they have no kids hanging about on street corners drinking and the general rate of Alcoholism is lower. Some may think its what Scotland is about, but ce assured that its a disgrace that has to be tackled and not just by 'beefing up the police' it has to be addressed from top to bottom, from educating parents, to educating kids and to deal with retail outlets, be it pubs, off licences or supermarkets, who target kids with so called 'alco-pops'
78

Roscoe P Coltrane,

18/06/2008 11:00:41
Typical politicians. Instead of tackling the underlying causes of binge drinking, let's do something really cheap that will get headlines and convince people we're doing something in the short-term.

Instead, how about taxing people in a fair and progressive manner instead of the regressive taxation system in this country (where the poorer you are, the higher proportion of your income you pay in tax) and using that money to invest in some kind of social structure so people aren't so p*ssed off at life they have to go get p*ssed all the time.
79

Edward,

18/06/2008 11:02:08
#84 Keith Lagden
And stupid, what would your idea be?
80

Publius,

London 18/06/2008 11:03:45
#76 Les D

"Yes it is tme the price on some alcohol was increased, it is ridiculous that a can of lager costs less than bottled water."

This tells us more about the stupidity of people who buy bottled water than people who buy lager. For what it'a worth until a couple of months ago some supermarkets charged more for a litre of bottled water than a litre of petrol.

I doubt whether large supermarkets sell packs of lager to underage drinkers. Small shops maybe. Supermarkets no.
81

Edward,

18/06/2008 11:03:48
#88 Roscoe P Coltrane
Your obviously not familiar with devolved issues
General taxation such as PAYE is not devolved to Scotland
82

Egg Chasing Ape,

18/06/2008 11:08:08
Why are we not targeting the drinks designed to entice young drinkers? How can alcopops be excluded from this proposal when they are exactly the kind of drink that youngsters want; something palatable that does not taste like drink.

The last 20 years has seen an explosion of products that make drinking 'easier' or that can be added to spirits to ease the consumption. Prior to this every male started on lager and girls on Vodka and a mixer, because youngsters by enlarge can’t stomach the taste of spirits or of dark ales and Guinness!

Target sweet high strength ciders, all alcopops etc to make consumption less palatable and yes Buckfast may only be 15 % by volume, but it too is a favoured tipple because of its sweetness!

Is it any co-incidence that it is tasteless lagers, Smirnoff Ice et al that are endlessly on sale in supermarkets and offies?

Drinkers of good spirits, decent well made beers and ‘good’ wine are surely subsidising the rest of it? Youngsters tastes have not changed, take away the sweet lure of these new drinks and drinking becomes less appealing for its own sake.

I realise this will not completely address the problem but surely it’s a start?
83

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 18/06/2008 11:11:27
These are eminently sensible proposals. The price rises may help to quell the nation's fascination with alcohol. Well done Kenny MacAskill.
84

Edward,

18/06/2008 11:16:22
How Tesco's price alcohol cheaper than water
Highland Spring Still 1 ltr £ 0.79
Tesco Dry Cider 2ltr £ 1.18 (£0.59 per Litre)
Tesco Value Lager £ 0.52 per litre
85

Liz,

Edinburgh 18/06/2008 11:29:09
#94
But why are people not questioning how idiotic the people are for paying so much for bottled water?

Seriouly, what idiots are paying 79p a litre for something that is no better than what we here in Scotland are lucky enough to get through the taps?!
86

Edward,

18/06/2008 11:39:29
#96 & #98
I really agree that Scottish Tap water is just as good as bottled still water. But the point being made is the price comparison between bottled water and alcohol which is readily available. If people want to buy bottled water, then thats up to them, there not going to get drunk on water.You will loose th point if you just focus on how idiotic it is to buy bottled water in a country thats blessed with good clean drinking water on tap
87

Anonym,

18/06/2008 11:42:00
# 99 - "What would be the effect of doubling the price of these drinks?
Underagers would only be able to purchase half as much.

Or trebling the price?
Underagers would only be able to purchase one third as much.

And so on...DUH!"

Or alternatively, they might buy the same amount, but have less money left over to buy other things.

DUH!
88

Edward,

18/06/2008 11:46:01
#99 whitepuddinsupper
Think the Scottish Government are aiming to tackle both underage feral drinking as well as binge drinking at all ages
Question for everyone; Why do Drinks companies push out so called Alcopop drinks in the UK, but are hardly seen on the continent? Could it be there is a cynical drive by drinks companies to entice young and especially under age drinkers? Think about it
Adlopops is aimed at the young end through advertising and the design of the bottles and colours used
But go on the continent and you would be hard pressed to see the same drinks. Could it be the drinks companies see the youth market as an easy soft target to make money, where as on the continent drinking is seen as more responsible
89

kimba,

18/06/2008 11:51:12
Edward. That is about right,in France or Germant you would never find such drinks.
90

Edward,

18/06/2008 11:57:38
I would go for a total ban on alcopop drinks
an example of what should be banned
http://www.beverage-brands.co.uk/brands/default.asp
91

BennyB,

Paris 18/06/2008 12:02:19
The Uk has a major drinking problem. It is a cultural thing. Having lived more than 20yrs in Soctland, how many times have i heard brits say 'i didn't have a good time last night 'cos i didn't get drunk'. It is really sad! In France, a group of young people can have a great night and just dring 1-2 glasses of wine.
That the governement wants to address the problem with higher prices and better controlling is a good thing.
It is not a policing problem - arresting drunks making a noise, disrupting passers, knocking over bins etc, is impossible - what do you arrest them for? Making a noise? and how do you define 'noise'?
Good on the government. Clean up our streets.
92

kimba,

18/06/2008 12:05:59
104,Edward. The UK needs to have a different approach altogether on under age drinking,maybe if parents gave their kids watered down wine (like in france) at meal times,kids wouldn't think it was such a "cool" thing to do.
93

Egg Chasing Ape,

18/06/2008 12:14:31

Everyone seems to agree that its the type of drinks that need to be targeted, why then are alcopops and Buckfast excluded from this proposal?

I honestly feel that the bingeing of the young is helped by the taste of the product, making it easier to consume. Plus I don't think that there is any doubt that it is a cynical drive by the drinks companies to target youngsters, both pre and past the legal age.

Profits come first in this world in every walk of life, human beings second.
94

Statsman,

Edinburgh 18/06/2008 12:15:35
94 Edward, 18/06/2008

Tesco Value Lager is 2% alcohol and Tesco water is probably around 30p a bottle.

These are hardly fair comparisons. You are just a PC brigade scaremonger.
95

Popper,

18/06/2008 12:28:14
Sainsbury's water is 17p a litre - these clowns just can't resist a cliche - alcohol cheaper than water my ***e. But this looks like another c*ck-up by the SNP. Do you think they realised that their plans wouldn't hit Buckie or alco-pops? I doubt it. Just knee-jerk nonsense with no appreciation of the facts. Anyway - they can't do it, just as they can't do any of the other things they promised. Why do the media give the SNP such an easy ride? Imagine if it was labour or tories saying their policy was to do something that was against the law or EU regulations. The press would crucify them as ignoramuses.
96

Popper,

18/06/2008 12:28:21
Sainsbury's water is 17p a litre - these clowns just can't resist a cliche - alcohol cheaper than water my ***e. But this looks like another c*ck-up by the SNP. Do you think they realised that their plans wouldn't hit Buckie or alco-pops? I doubt it. Just knee-jerk nonsense with no appreciation of the facts. Anyway - they can't do it, just as they can't do any of the other things they promised. Why do the media give the SNP such an easy ride? Imagine if it was labour or tories saying their policy was to do something that was against the law or EU regulations. The press would crucify them as ignoramuses.
97

kimba,

18/06/2008 12:32:34
110. Good point!
98

Auckland Arab2,

18/06/2008 12:35:15
Some of the negative comments on here are crassly ill informed and myopic in their view of this problem.

Firstly, as any primary one economics student can tell you, demand is a function of price and supply. Increase price and demand falls. Alcohol is no exception to this - my question would be if some of the posters on here actually agree that alcohol consumption being high is a bad thing? This is not about banning or prohibition but sensible regulation and unfortunately there needs to be a minimal price for all alcoholic drinks to curb excessive demand. This is step one in a raft of policies to tackle alcohol related issues across the board - no one is claiming this is a silver bullet. As a voter I am totally behind this policy and I think a lot of decent people will be. Getting pissed on discounted Tesco extra strength cider has nothing to do with PC or not. Its about society determining what it thinks is acceptable and unacceptable behaviour.
99

Popper,

18/06/2008 12:42:22
113 - oddly enough the demand for alcoholic drinks is pretty inelastic. So primary one economics is not quite good enough...
100

Allan(handofgod137),

18/06/2008 12:47:23
It's been said before, but I'll repeat it for the benefit of all the scottish Numpty Party trolls trying to defend the indefensible. We don't need more taxes, or more laws, we just need to apply the existing ones.
101

Prester John,

18/06/2008 12:52:43
#113
"Firstly, as any primary one economics student can tell you, demand is a function of price and supply. Increase price and demand falls. Alcohol is no exception to this"

Simplistic. As anyone who studies economics to more sophisticated levels knows; this is a general rule of limited application. The minute that substitution comes into the equation then the rule becomes virtually useless. For example I believe that a fair old slew of drugs are available at prices well within the ambit of many of the feral and binge-drinkers. Can't get alcohol son, wanna try some coke (lines, that is - not cans) ?

Then there is the issue of competition, legal or otherwise. If I can make wine (and used to make beer) for 50p per litre or so, then it is not beyond the bounds of belief that others could do it far more cheaply and quickly since their idea of quality control is well adrift of mine. I and some friends make our first batches whilst still at school - largely for interest (I didn't start drinking until I was 19). It's really easy.

Moonshining to produce cheap spirit has never really gone away. We could see a resurgence if drink becomes exorbitantly expensive. That stuff is lethal.
102

Publius,

London 18/06/2008 12:53:06
#110; #111 Popper
Yes. Supermarkets do sell own brand bottled spring water at lowish prices. But they also sell premium branded mineral water at extortionate prices - and people still buy the stuff. They also sell lagers of different kinds, qualities and strengths at all kinds of different prices.
#114 Popper. But you are right about the demand for alcohol being fairly inelastic in price terms. Cultural norms and addiction are probably more important than price in determining the amount sold. This takes us back to the point in a lot of posts today - enforce the existing laws.
103

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 18/06/2008 12:55:40
#114

I've lost count how many have said this over the last three days or so.

As I said #32

It's time the SNP changed their acronym to SNSP (aka Scotland's National Socialist Party) and issued the uniforms with black shiny boots which have, no doubt, been kept aside for the declaration of full independence.

Proper policing would have a dramatic impact almost immediately but what would Tom Wood know about that; I've yet to meet anyone who was impressed by him in his past (police) life. Combine that with education, faith in the development of a sensible cafe culture and the elimination of the graphic images which glorify alcohol - well that might just take a while but there will be no quick fixes. These laws will make no real difference.

In addition, try prosecuting so-called celebrities for drug-taking plus drunk and disorderly behaviour).

Key point : NO QUICK FIXES EXIST
104

cabrach loon,

Inverness 18/06/2008 12:59:53
Another useless measure, policing and education and shaming. I had hoped the SNP were above stealth taxes which is all this is. Roll it on Al Capone, and booze trips over the borders! just look at the drug problem and see how the politicians learn how to mirror it in alcohol. Just so negative and pathetic - the worls will laugh - punish all for demeanours of the few - british public school rules! By the way I do not drink now - liver problem from booze so education please into the dangers of overconsumption!

#14 gives excellent idea and suggestions. Identify where the drinkers get the funds and penalise bad behaviour.
105

Keep Scotland Green,

Doune 18/06/2008 13:04:40
Get police on the streets with powers to issue mandatory on the spot fines to people who are drunk. Those who resist can be arrested. Anti social behaviour declines and in time will disappear. We get our streets back. Simple.
106

Popper,

18/06/2008 13:05:47
117 - if alcohol's cheaper than water then vodka and whisky are cheaper than wine. You can get a bottle for less than a tenner - and there's no limit to what you can pay for wine - Chateau Margaux anyone? If your point is that some mugs are prepared to get ripped off by buying hideously overpriced water then I agree with you. If however you insist that the fact that some water costs more than the absolutely cheapest alcohol then I have to say - so what?
107

Miss H,

18/06/2008 13:26:34
120 That was Tony Blair's idea - march them off to the nearest cashline.

To put this in context the consultation paper cites one study of one police station - just one - which saw over 3000 people arrested in a year under the influence of booze or drugs. Two-thirds of those lifted for violent attacks were drunk.

The idea that you can deal with this by having officers issue on the spot fines for people who are drunk is frankly laughable.

You are just not living in the real world.


108

W U Merchant,

Galsgow 18/06/2008 13:33:25
Popper, you are wrong. Numerous research studies show that, even when the price of alcohol goes up by a small amount, demand goes down. Some of the proposed price increases will be significant and the drop in demand will be significant. Well done MacAskill.
109

Popper,

18/06/2008 13:42:43
W U Merchant - name one. The only one ever conducted in Scotland was Kendell Ritson and de Roumanie in the early 80s published in Addiction and now used as an example of fallacious design and analysis in Doug Altmans' medical stats book. Demand for alcohol *is* relatively inelastic - that's why it's a good target for excise taxes.
110

John Blackley,

Florida 18/06/2008 13:45:40
More thrashing around from the Institute of Limited Imaginations (aka Scotland's Parliament - oh, and don't get me wrong, this would apply to almost any western government).

Like the proposals for LIT, the SNP may well find that their 'grand plan' (now that's funny!) for curbing alcohol abuse is actually not legal under the rule of our European masters.

In any case, it smells of a return to the seventies when certain commodities' prices were fixed in order to "stop inflation". That didn't work.

So Scotland has 'an alchohol problem'? I'd disagree. I'd say Scotland has an alcohol symptom of a larger problem and that larger problem is a breakdown of social rules brought about - at least in part - by the welfare state and, in another part, by the slackening of morality that's been happening since the fifties.

I certainly don't expect the government to 'cure' either of these. (I don't expect them to 'cure' the alcohol symptom either but, bless them, they've got to be seen to try.) However, instead of penalising people who enjoy alcohol responsibly, I would endorse views expressed earlier. Raise the age at which alcohol can be purchased - anywhere - and require proof of identity. Police underage drinking and penalise the parents of chronic underage drinkers. Enforce 'drunk and disorderly' laws with a night or two in a drunk tank. Most of all, stop looking for short-term, easy, 'tax and ban' solutions to every problem.
111

Lord of All Mordor,

By The Beautiful Nokia River 18/06/2008 14:08:48
No.125

By far the most perceptive comment is the one about alcohol as a symptom not a cause. It is no accident that people talk about blind drunk. It is an anaesthetic to all intents and purposes and a depressant.

Ask yourself why people in Britain would want to unwind/de-stress/get hammered/legless/out of their skulls and every other term to describe being intoxicated in Britain.

Britain is a soul-less dispiriting place which much to depress society. Over-worked, over-taxed (very much past any reasonable level), disenfranchised to all intents and purposes because of a political elite determined to remove any sense of heritage, lacking in social cohesion and much more to corrode the soul. It is perhaps not surprising that so many Britons turn to alcohol.

You should remeber that the Nordic countries have very high prices but that does not really impact on levels of alcohol consumed - only the amount of alcohol sold legally.
112

monkey man,

18/06/2008 14:10:12
I'm not a fan of the SNP, far from it, but Scotland's shocking attitude to alcohol must be at last faced head on.

Being drunk and incapable in the street should be seen as socially unacceptable and an arrestable offence.

The damage to our society due to the problems associated with alcohol are frightening. The violence outside pubs and clubs, drunk drivers, domestic violence, loss of employment through addiction,etc, and much much more.

Time to get tough on alcohol abuse, I'm afraid. Taxing it out of existence is a good start.
113

Anonym,

18/06/2008 14:22:22
Aye #128

...a brilliant start indeed. Then the sensible majority can forget about drinking too, because it will have been taxed out of existence.

You've not really thought this through very well have you?
114

Lucy131,

UK 18/06/2008 14:25:42
Although it's good that the government want to tackle binge culture, surely it would be more effective to enforce the laws that already exist!?! The majority of sensible drinkers are going to suffer as a result!! We should make sure that those of us who are mature enough to enjoy alcohol in a responsible fashion aren't punished for the offences of a minority. If you agree, you should join me at www.responsibledrinkersalliance.co.uk make sure your voice is heard!
115

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 18/06/2008 14:32:08
#128

You will never put that particular genie back in its bottle. Prohibition and extortionate taxes have never worked. All that lies down that road is alienation for the politicians.

In any event, as I have pointed out, you can produce cider, wine and beer really cheaply. Someone else (#64) has pointed out that it is not hard to get high quality spirits either if the will is there. I could assemble the compnents for a workable still in a morning without breakig sweat. If I can then almost everybody else could too.
116

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 18/06/2008 14:33:01
Oops - breaking sweat, that should be obviously.
117

AlecJ,

Aberdeen 18/06/2008 14:46:37
What worries me most (as a _very_ occasional drinker) is where is the extra money collected on booze going to go. Politicians already take too much from the citizens in Britain, and it appears to be mostly to further inflate their already topheavy income and non-contributory pensions plans, including payments to their family members. Perhaps their schemes could be put to public referendum; then they would see how little these leeches are loved.
118

Skip McClendon,

18/06/2008 14:49:54
No doubt these plans are well-intentioned, but they seem to be seriously flawed and will do little or nothing to target the problem of under-age or binge drinking.

Many of the drinks popular with the teens and the neds (Buckfast, alcopops) would seem to be largely unaffected, so there will be no change in their drinking habits.

Looking at the proposoals, it seems some of the worst-hit products will be supermarket own brands. Popular with those on low wages who want to enjoy the odd tipple, but hardly the type of "trendy" product thrown back by the binge-drinking masses of a weekend evening.

So the pensioner who wants to buy a six-pack of Asda beer to enjoy over the course of a week will be hard hit, while Stef and Senga will still be free to consume Buckie by the bucketload without being forced to pay any more for the "pleasure".

To me, the most ridiculous proposals of all involve the introduction of separate checkouts for alcohol within supermarkets. Exactly how is this supposed to be tackling binge drinking? The jakies will just head straight to the bevvy counter to buy their massive carry-oot as normal, while those of us who are doing a family shop will be forced to queue twice if we want to buy a bottle of wine with our trolley full of groceries. Where is the logic in that?

It's a nonsense that people see drink in supermarkets while doing their grocery shopping and suddenly "decide" to buy a massive amount of alcohol to get tanked up that evening. I sometimes buy "special offers" or 2 for ones when I see them...but that doesn't mean that I feel the need to consume them all in one go. When I buy 3 for 2s on bog-roll, I don't suddenly feel the need to go to the toilet every 2 minutes. The same applies to any special offers I get on alcohol - I do the same as 99% of other people do....I save it and consume it at my normal rate.

The only people who will be incovenienced by the proposals as they currently exist are the poor and the moderate drinker.
119

Boggle fey the Bog,

18/06/2008 15:00:25
Eck is really on dangerous ground here, Kenny Macs proposals are ludicrous, extreme and completely unnecessary.

All they have to do is enforce the fcuking law that is available.

AFAIAA it is still an offence to be drunk in a public place, consume alcohol on the street, in the park etc, and sell alcohol to underage people. No new laws JUST enforce the old ones. As I have said before, it is the sentencing and enforcement that is wrong, not the lack of more ridiculous legislation.

Eck take us to Independence, and then get out, because if your party is just going to be Nu SNP/Owld Nu Labour yer oan tae a hiding tae nuthin!!!
120

DunnaeKen,

Forfar 18/06/2008 15:16:30
For those who attack the Scot Govt, just be minded that Broon will be looking at this too as England has drink problems too, so this will also be brought in doon sooth. Why do you think Wendy's gang are not rejecting it out right?

I like a drink but I agree with the proposals, our drink society is bringing shame to this country look at what happened in Manchester when a handful of Rangers fans started fighting with police and then themselves because a TV broke down. I was astounded to learn that many had been drinking since 9am that morning or even earlier.

I have also yet to see the same agressive promotions in European supermarkets that we see in this country. It is incredible that some lagers are currently being sold cheaper than the duty paid on it. Where is the social responsibility from the supermarkets that one or two promised just some months ago.

At the end of the day many of the beers and real ciders will not raise in price by much, if at all, it is an attack on the "ciders" which have never seen an apple in its process making and "paint stripping" vodka.

Finally, I can't believe why so many people are getting their knickers in a twist it is not set in stone yet, this is only part of a consultation which those who are for or against it can make their comments known.
121

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 18/06/2008 15:27:24
Final nail in the coffin for the license trade. The knock on effect of which will be town centres like ghost towns and noisy neighbours the norm as drinkers turn to cheap home brew stolen booze and illegal drugs for their weekend thrills. The return of the shebeen is nigh and my garden bar will be opening very very soon...
122

,

18/06/2008 15:27:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
123

stan free,

Cowtown, Alta 18/06/2008 15:51:14
lived in Alberta for couple of years now, off licences are govt regulated (few and far between) choice is pretty limited (wine anyway) drinking in public is taboo-i have the odd beer on our front step but get odd looks ; own property is okay. It's not just the tight controls that seem to curb young people on the swallae, lot of families seem to immerse their kids in sports & activities from an early age and support that through their teens (ie drive them everywhere and sit and watch their lacrosse/hockey/swimming/skiing etc)
even with adults here the drinking culture is fairly reserved; the twenty-something club goer prob being the prime user - am early 40s but don't feel the same freedom to 'go out on the lash' here as i would at home,just not the done thing here ;in summary huge changes need to be made in blighty, but do you want to go to the lengths we have here, this is not nanny state it is full blown stepford
124

Geomac 1,

Scotland 18/06/2008 16:36:23
Great government - ban this ban that and hope for the best!! Where's the evidence that these proposals will work? Usual scattergun approach and hope for the best. And these people claim to be our leaders - heaven help us!!
Soo we'll have to apply to Kenny and his merry band for permission to go to the loo!!
If I was a responsible 19 or 20 year old (majority by a long way) I'd be mighty pi**ed off at being accused of being a lush and being penalised for my innocance!!
125

John Blackley,

Florida 18/06/2008 16:44:01
#126 The Genuine Mario Antoinette,thank you for responding to my comment.

If I may, there is nothing of the "Isnt life easy to sort out" about my suggestions. Implementing controls over the anitsocial and the lawbreaker will take time and effort - however the controls I suggest target those who would break the law and not those who abide within the law.

Also, I fail to see why implementing them would mean tax increases. Shopkeepers and publicans would be required to check proof-of-age (as they do for cigarette sales now) and "drunk and disorderly" is already an arrestable offence.

As to "whatever happened to Social cohesion and an acceptance......etc.," what you seem to be advocating is acceptance that life for the law-abiding must continue to deteriorate in order to keep the antisocial and the lawless under control. I absolutely disagree and equate that with the slashing of civil liberties here and in the UK in the name of "anti-terrorism". This proposal is a sledgehammer to crack a walnut - an ill-thought-out, blunt instrument of policy that not only imposes a penalty on those who have done no wrong but also speaks to the limited talent of those who would impose it.

p.s. That last sentence applies to any government whose approach to all problems is "tax or ban".
126

Phil1,

Edinburgh 18/06/2008 16:57:17
I guess the politicians will set an example by banning cheap booze paid for by the taxpayers in the Scottish parliament's bars and resturants - yeah sure!
127

Pilrig.,

Livingston 18/06/2008 18:11:16
Welcome to ControlFreakland, formerly known as Scotland.
128

Pilrig.,

Livingston 18/06/2008 18:22:37
Who'd be a teenager in this country ?

16 years old - can marry, join the army, but cant drink alcohol or smoke (but meantime they're trying to give you the vote)

18 years old - can marry; can vote; can see active service in the armed forces; can smoke; can buy alcohol in a pub, but not allowed to buy booze from a shop/supermarket.
129

Pilrig.,

Livingston 18/06/2008 18:24:43
Who'd be a teenager in this country ?

16 years old - can marry, join the army, but cant drink alcohol or smoke (but meantime they're trying to give you the vote)

18 years old - can marry; can vote; can see active service in the armed forces; can smoke; can buy alcohol in a pub, but not allowed to buy booze from a shop/supermarket.
130

PointOf View,

Edinburgh Falkirk 18/06/2008 18:52:35
Here we go again. So called law makers deciding what’s best for us. I've got an idea it’s called informed choice. Get drunk, miss behave, get arrested, simple as that.

However, there’s no denying there is a drink culture in Scotland. Surely to address the problem you must find the cause. I believe the Scots have been so trodden on over the last three hundred years, poor wages living conditions, everything! When you have no future or hope, you drink, drown your sorrows what else to do.

In Scotland this was the case over hundreds of years of dictatorship imp[osed by the so called English masters. Sadly alcohol Is now a part of our culture.

Education is the answer and an acknowledgement that things won’t change over night. What the Scots do not need is the all knowing state dictating, yet again, deciding what’s best for us. Education, Social responsibility/accountability, INFORMED CHOICE, self determination. New Scotland, a new way. Down with dictatorships.
131

Buckfastleigh,

in Devon 18/06/2008 18:56:03
I note the Scots are returning to traditional values...it is clearly important to ensure that the mob has little enough money to access the corrupting powers of the dreaded fumes offered by Al Co-Hool.

In future the rich and noble only will enjoy this p'ticular privilege as of yore, and we will then see the status of "drunk as a Lord" restored to this Kingdom of ours while England will be the bolt hole for the many deprived sanculottes and Jacobins!

In the South East for some time already Calais and Boulogne are heaving under the weight of London white vans; perhaps Berwick and Carlyle have a new and assured future...as booze capitals no less.
132

tyson,

Severna Park 18/06/2008 20:15:25
They'll start making their own wine down in the cellar, or set up poteen stills out on the moors.
If folks want drink, they'll find a way.
133

The Bish,

Glasgow 18/06/2008 20:27:14
Just another pitiful excuse to tax us 'till we squeak, pushed by a hypocrite who was lifted by the polis at the fitba' for drunk and disorderly no less.

MacAskill isn't a fit person to be a Justice Minister.
134

Becky,

Salt Lake City 18/06/2008 21:30:09
Could be much worse. Try living somewhere where an anti-alcohol religion has too much pull over the politicians. Utah's liquor laws, which are slowly getting better, are still far more ridiculous than anything I've seen proposed here.
My current favorite is only selling alcopops in state owned liquor stores (bottle shops) with no refrigerated areas, though there's no sense in drinking those anyway. At least you can also get good beers warm at the liquor stores or cold lower alcohol brews at the grocery and convenience stores.
135

Conan the Librarian™,

18/06/2008 22:10:53
155
When I was thirteen I was drunk every Saturday and Sunday night, had seen all the X rated films, had a girlfriend who was a real goer, and had beaten up at least one tough at the pub Saturday night.

Well that's what I told my mates on Monday morning...
136

Conan the Librarian™,

18/06/2008 22:12:29
...Or the odd researcher or two;-)
137

AbandonAllHope,

09/07/2008 07:21:49
Oh well, back tae heroin then, its cheap as chips these days

 

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