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Wasted: The millions spent trying to boost Scottish healthcare



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Published Date: 03 July 2008
A LUCRATIVE new contract for Scottish GPs that gave them a 38 per cent pay rise over three years has failed to reduce health inequalities or improve access for patients.
A damning report today reveals there has been only limited progress for patients in several key areas – despite the contract costing £160 million more than anticipated. Campaigners said it was "shocking" the deal with family doctors had yet to tackle some of the biggest problems facing the NHS.

Matthew Sinclair, a policy analyst at the TaxPayers' Alliance, said: "With resources strained paying for new drugs and higher pay across the health service, and hard-pressed families already taxed to the limit, taxpayers can't afford for their politicians to be giving away their money like this.

"Across the NHS, we've seen new contracts offer little improvement in standards despite big increases in spending. This is another failure to deliver taxpayers value for money."

Key findings from today's report by Audit Scotland include the fact the contract has failed to divert more resources to deprived and rural areas.

There was also little evidence patients can see a GP more easily now, with most health boards not believing the contract had helped improve access.

And auditors found a lack of basic information on general practice in Scotland, such as staff numbers and workload, making it difficult for the NHS to plan effectively.

But the report did find some benefits for patients from the new contract, including better monitoring of conditions such as diabetes, as well as improving the working lives of GPs.

After lengthy contract negotiations between the UK governments and GP leaders, the new General Medical Services contract (nGMS) was hastily introduced across Scotland in April 2004. Between 2004-5 and 2006-7, NHS boards were given £1.87 billion to pay for general medical services under the contract. But they ended up spending £2.03 billion – some £160 million more than allocated over three years.

Audit Scotland said there were signs some aspects of patient care had improved, such as a greater focus on chronic conditions such as asthma and heart disease.

The report also said GP practices were receiving larger incomes and doctors had a better work-life balance, having been given the option to stop out-of-hours working under the new contract.

But the report highlighted several areas where more limited progress had been made, or no progress at all, despite the huge sums being invested.

It said that "no progress" had been made in directing greater resources to areas most in need, such as deprived and rural parts of the country, because of guarantees made to practices that none would lose money under the new contract.

Audit Scotland found limited evidence nGMS had made it easier for patients to see a GP.

One issue highlighted was the fact GPs only have to demonstrate they have systems in place to be able to see patients within a 48-hour target – they do not actually have to show they achieve the target.

Barbara Hurst, director of the team that produced the Audit Scotland report, said they had flagged up this concern previously and action was needed to address the issue.

"It is fine to have a system to help meet the target, but you need to demonstrate that people are getting that access. That is important to patients," she said.

Few health boards – just four out of 14 – told Audit Scotland they believed patient access had improved as a result of the deal with family doctors.

Margaret Watt, chairman of the Patients Association, criticised the lack of foresight in predicting how much the contract would cost.

"It is shocking that so much more was spent on this contract than they expected," she said. "If all this extra money has been put in and we are not making any in-roads into the problems faced by patients, what are we doing about it? This is taxpayers' money we are talking about."

The majority of the extra costs experienced as a result of the contract came from the introduction of the incentive scheme, known as the Quality and Outcomes Framework (QOF).

Under this, GPs earn points for meeting certain indicators, such as maintaining a register of people with serious conditions such as asthma and heart disease and carrying out blood pressure checks.

But QOF was not piloted or tested ahead of being introduced. "This was a serious omission, as experience of previous incentive schemes for GPs indicated that achievement levels would be high," Audit Scotland said.

Because of the lack of planning and underestimation of the cost, QOF led to a £43.6 million shortfall in 2004-5 alone. This cost had to be met by health boards from other parts of their budget.

Boards also faced the extra cost of providing out-of-hours services where GPs opted out – up to £68 million in 2006-7.

Overall, the cost of providing general medical services rose by 40 per cent, from £503.9 million in 2003-4, before the new contract, to £706.1 million in 2006-7. This compares with a 27.6 per cent rise in the NHS in Scotland overall.

Other concerns raised by the report include the fact that QOF could have disadvantaged rural practices, whose small patient lists mean they may not have people eligible to monitor for particular illnesses.

The report also pointed out there was no evidence to show the new contract had increased the number of GPs in areas with a lower proportion of doctors per head of the population.

Audit Scotland said the Scottish Government needed to do more to monitor the impact of the contract, as well as consider its failings when negotiating new contracts. Ms Hurst said: "

There are lessons to be learned when negotiating future contracts in the health service.

"In this case, there was not good enough information about what was going on in GP practices prior to the contract.

"So, the health department in Scotland estimated that GPs would achieve around 80 per cent of the points available in the QOF. That was a massive underestimate. The actual percentage is in the high 90s and, of course, that is going to cost more."

Dr Dean Marshall, chairman of the British Medical Association's Scottish GPs committee, said the new contract had been needed to tackle recruitment problems, and the fact many GPs had been threatening to leave due to their heavy workload under the previous deal. He also said patients were seeing the benefits of the contract in improved services.

Nicola Sturgeon, the health secretary, welcomed the benefits of the contract highlighted by the study. "However, the report highlights the fact that there was a substantial underestimate of the resources required to implement the incentive payment system for the quality of care," she said. "The report also highlights concerns over the provision of basic management information about general practice in Scotland and the impact this can have on planning.

"We must now build on the improvements for patients the report identifies and work to address the lack of information on GP practices the report reveals."

Did a major cash injection make any difference?

EXPECTED BENEFIT: Expansion of general medical services

PROGRESS: Some progress

The programme of "enhanced services" has allowed NHS boards to expand the services provided by primary care – for example, sexual health or alcohol addiction clinics. Audit Scotland said there was scope for this to continue to develop.

EXPECTED BENEFIT: Better control over GP workloads and more flexibility in job opportunities for doctors

PROGRESS: Some progress

Allowing GPs to opt out of out-of-hours work has improved the work-life balance for doctors. An increased use of salaried GPs by NHS boards – those not covered by the new contract – means GP partners are working an average of three hours less a week.

EXPECTED BENEFIT: Reduced pressure on acute NHS services

PROGRESS: Limited progress

In some cases a small number of services have moved from hospitals into primary care, such as reviews of patients with type 2 diabetes. But Audit Scotland said there was no evidence to show that the resources were following the patients.

EXPECTED BENEFIT: Greater flexibility in commissioning general medical services

PROGRESS: Some progress

Audit Scotland said some NHS boards were introducing services managed by themselves, but the majority of services were still provided through GP practices. In Scotland, NHS boards have not commissioned services from the private sector, as has happened in England.

EXPECTED BENEFIT: Allocation of resources based upon patient need – eg, in deprived and remote areas – and reducing inequalities across Scotland

PROGRESS: No progress

Funding for services is not distributed in relation to where the cost of providing medical services is higher, such as in deprived and rural areas. The incentives scheme also means that remote practices may find it harder to achieve as well, due to having fewer patients on their lists.

EXPECTED BENEFIT: Improve convenience, choice and access for patients

PROGRESS: Limited progress

The number of services provided through GP practices has increased. But access to GPs is monitored only in relation to whether a practice has systems in place to help achieve a 48-hour access target – they do not actually have to show the target has been met.

EXPECTED BENEFIT: A quality framework introduced to manage patients with chronic disease

PROGRESS: Some progress

The Quality and Outcomes Framework (QOF) has improved the recording and monitoring of patients with some diseases. It is estimated that 23 per cent of consultations in GP practices relate to QOF.

EXPECTED BENEFIT: Reforming emergency (out-of-hours) care

PROGRESS: Limited progress

Audit Scotland said NHS boards had concentrated on maintaining services rather than reforming out-of-hours and unscheduled care services.

EXPECTED BENEFIT: Improvement in recruitment and retention of staff

PROGRESS: Some progress

The number of GPs in Scotland has increased from 4,456 in 2004 to 4,721 in 2007. A lack of data means it is not possible to say how many are part-time or full-time GPs, but the figures do suggest an increase in GP numbers overall. Audit Scotland said there was a lack of comprehensive data on GP and practice staff numbers, roles and workload, making it difficult to assess improvements in recruitment and retention. The average net income of GPs who moved on to the new contract increased by 38 per cent between 2003-4 and 2005-6.

EXPECTED BENEFIT: More flexibility in the structure and skill mix of general practice – eg, more use of nurses

PROGRESS: Some progress

There is some evidence that practice nurses are becoming much more involved in the regular treatment of patients with certain conditions, such as asthma and diabetes.

Key figures who helped to introduce GP contract

ALAN MILBURN, former health secretary in Westminster, was a key player in bringing about the new GP contract after lengthy negotiations which lasted from 2001 until June 2003. GPs were worried some would lose out under the new deal, but the government stepped in to guarantee a minimum income.

HAMISH MELDRUM, of the British Medical Association's GP contract negotiating team, helped to bargain for the best deal for doctors under the new contract. Dr Simon Fradd, a fellow GP negotiator, later said doctors were stunned by what they were able to get, including an opt-out of out-of-hours care for just a 6 per cent cut in pay.

Scotland was always represented during the UK-wide GP contract negotiations. MALCOLM CHISHOLM, former Labour health minister, introduced the legislation to the Scottish Parliament. He told MSPs at the time: "There is much in the bill for GPs, but there is even more for patients and for the whole of the NHS."

The full article contains 1960 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 03/07/2008 00:13:58

Only 38% over 3years,?

Lets make it 138% over 3years!

Any changes yet,?

'Of Course Not'!

We are all beung 'Told' Something here, are we not,?

And its 'NOT' Money!
2

Guga II,

Rockall 03/07/2008 00:50:15
Another example of the incompetence of the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party (North British Branch).
3

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 03/07/2008 01:12:45
"One issue highlighted was the fact GPs only have to demonstrate they have systems in place to be able to see patients within a 48-hour target – they do not actually have to show they achieve the target"

Hardly an evidence-based outcome is it?

To obtain a 38% increase any other sector might reasonably be expected to achieve or better hard targets which did in fact show believable improvement. It also illustrates the usual Labour folly of throwing money at problems and hoping they'll go away rather than expecting and managing improvement. How did they ever justify 38%?

4

subrosa,

03/07/2008 01:57:24
#4

You're being flippant I hope :)
5

,

03/07/2008 04:09:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
6

Anne,

Eaglesham 03/07/2008 06:42:00
The government has been mounting a very nasty campaign against doctors over the past few years.

Westminster is attempting to soften up public opinion south of the border in order to push its version of privatisation on the NHS.

If you are young (under forty), in good health, Virgin healthcare is waqiting to snap you up for its new services.

On the other hand, if you suffer from chronic health problems (diabetes, asthma, arthritis, depression), look out.You will be an expensive, unloved patient.

We are,I think, very fortunate in our general practices.Let's try to keep them.
7

steve 1511,

aberdeen 03/07/2008 07:05:37
another major failure for the labour stasi party.
can anyone list a success of a policy for the party of sleaze and corruption in their time in government
8

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 03/07/2008 07:09:50
Socialised medicine has to be handled differently in the the 21C. I'd like to see the state removed other than to insist that we all carry adequate personal health insurance, subsidizing that only where absolutely necessary. Much as car insurance, I suppose; including annual health MOTs.

And what about dentistry, too? No NHS dentists in our area at all.
9

danielrober,

03/07/2008 07:13:57
One knows nothing, until one experiments. A well know fact that can be applied equally to policy as it can to science. Yet you do have to close programs, making the staff redundant and move on. Its a healthy process and when done well actually just redeploys staff to more poductive stuations.

The situation above sounsd like a classic experiment that has not produced the results looked for. Okay good effort, now lets ty something else.
10

Dr JS,

ABERDEEN 03/07/2008 07:31:46
once again it seems the "naysayers" in the media are attempting to manipulate and distorte the public view on primary care.

People can you nit understand hat the COMPLEXITY of the work in general practice has CHANGED???? There is now a shift in moving services that you would once have accessed in a hospital into primary care. You are getting care that you would not have recieved before this contract was imposed

Example- yesterday I ran a specialist diabetic clinic for my patients- each appointment took up to half an hour- in that time blood results were checked based on latest EVIDENCE BASED, QUALITY CARE GUIDELINES , the patients were examined thoroughly (BP, WEIGHT, FOOT EXAMINATION INCLUDING PULSES, SENSATION,) drug (compliance, s.e's, hba1c) , diet, future care strategy etc. If any problems are found- it takes time to sort this people, unlike a few years ago when I ONLY OFFERED FIVE MINUTE APPOINTMENTS.

YOU ARE GETTING A DIFFERENT TYPE OF CARE , and i can tell you having worked for many years that the workload has nee decreased.

This contract was NEVER about improved access to a GP, that can only come with INCREASED CAPACITY, and are they training more GP's to come into the sector???? NO!!

So dont worry as ive said, and will keep saying because soon (rather than pay to train more profesional doctors- which is it seems too expensive)

The government will continue its lunacy ( remember we have community support officers working as policemen, we have classroom assistants working as teachers, we have health care assistants working as nurses) and NOW WE HAVE NURSES WORKING AS SURGEONS AND DOCTORS!!!!!) and you will in the future be able to have a lovely appointment at your local superclinic
11

Dr JS,

ABERDEEN 03/07/2008 07:38:29
And by the way NO AMOUNT OF MONEY will make me do out of hours again

doctors were thanked when we were working 110 hour weeks despite probably being unsafe to do so. we did this for £6000 per year (ie less than £10 per hour) for decades. ie essentially we were doing this out of the "goodness of our hearts"

but along came the clinical negligence lawsuits and the beloved american litigation culture, its no longer okay to "make a mistake" son your gonna pay for it with your money and your career!!! ....lawyers are a lovely bunch... no win no fee etc.

so the moral is folks....you want good care in the future..... your gonna pay for it... and if the 100billion pound (10 per cent of british GDP) isnt being spent properly (billions wated on management costs, pfi interest payments) then be prepared to "cough up"- but then again im sure your nurse will be able to diagnose and treat your community aquired pnemonia!!!

thank goodness i am an old man....

and charlie..........yer orf yer heed!

12

Pa broon,

Edinburgh 03/07/2008 08:02:55
One thing for sure, we would be a hell of a rich country if our political masters new how to spend our money wisely?

What a waste!
13

Helmut Smegma,

Edinburgh 03/07/2008 08:14:20
My GP drives a new Merc.SL 500.
14

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 03/07/2008 08:16:31

Dr JS ~13,

"and charlie..........yer orf yer heed!"

Excuse me!...how do you figure that one out,?

I said in post #1,


"We are all being 'Told' Something here, are we not,?

And its 'NOT' Money!"

You said re post, (your post #13)


"And by the way NO AMOUNT OF MONEY will make me do out of hours again"

"So you see sir, I speak truths, dont I,?

If "Truths" make us 'Mad', not much hope for anyone, including yourself,....'HUH',?


15

JohnBowes,

03/07/2008 08:24:59
Can someone please tell me what is surprising about this report? The extra money was simply linked to unadulterated GREED. It was never going to improve anything.

The standing of so called Doctors is at an ALL TIME low. They are beginning to look seedy. Incidentally, the majority of them are NOT Doctors anyway - the majority have NOT completed a Doctorate. How did they manage to STEAL that terms - namely, Doctor? The term Doctor applies to those with a Doctorate yet the VAST majority of medical practitioners do NOT have that.

Reader, take a look at the the photo of the "Doctor" accompanying this article. He is wearing a tie. Is it any wonder that bacteria is transfered between patients. Wearing ties like that is absolute LUNACY. They are rarely washed and they are floppy and thus will touch nigh everything the so called "Doctor" is near. Wearing such a garment is crazy.

Also, the photo shows the "Doctor" using a stethoscope. HOW often are they wiped clean? Is it any wonder that hospitals are full of super bugs?
16

Red Dykes,

Highland 03/07/2008 08:28:47
The NHS is an unaccountable behemoth - and GP's are just an example of the ineptitude of politicians in dealing with it - For all this you can thank Maggie Thatcherstein and her introduction of the internal market and private sector into a system which could not sustain it because there's no profit margins in healthcare if you include long term or chronic illness - the immediate abandonment of the elderly during Thatcher's reforms should've been a warning - eg -MRSA and C Diff are a direct result of privatising the cleaning of hospitals
17

John Cameron,

Broughty Ferry 03/07/2008 08:39:16
The government negotiators failed to see that the character of our General Practitioners had changed. Gone were the gentle, highly motivated, doctors of former years, often from a long family tradition. Over the last thirty years, entrants to the profession have increasingly been driven by the financial rewards and the prestige. Dealing with modern medical remuneration negotiators is as tough as dealing with any British trade union - tougher, in fact, because they are so much more intelligent. New Labour politicians, most with absolutely no experience whatsoever of the work place, were lambs led to the slaughter. Unfortunately it is the taxpayers who will have to pay for this fiasco.
18

Jings Crivens,

03/07/2008 08:40:52
Yet again another failure by this Scottish Government, after being in power for a year they should have spotted the failure of this scheme and stopped.

Attention to detail salmond
19

Helmut Smegma,

Edinburgh 03/07/2008 08:59:02
#17

You`re talking mince.All GP`s are regulated by the BMA.This includes vetting of qualifications.

And why the big problem with doctors wearing ties?

Muppet.
20

Micropacer,

03/07/2008 09:38:22
Between myself, my father and my sister we've had numerous dealings with our GPs and the NHS over the last year.

I wouldnt pay any of the GPs Ive seen half of what they currently get.

They are shocking. I have no idea what they are supposed to have learned in Medical School but its nothing to do with the human body.

My Father just saw and indian consultant at Raigmore yesterday having been off work for 8 months with problems. The consultant he saw yesterday ripped into my fathers GP as he has not done tests that should have been done at the start. Frankly its a mess and the same mess Myself and my Sister have been through. Do they train people better in India? It appears so!

If your ill your better heading to A & E than your GP as they seem to diagnose and help you. Everything is a "virus" to our GPs. I nearly lost the movement of my wrist and hand thanks to mine telling me I was over-reacting with the pain. I nipped into A & E after and they diagnosed my broken (but healing) wrist had become hypersensitive and needed intensive physio immediately. They took the cast off at 4 weeks and started the Physio - my Gp would have had the cast on 6 weeks and the consultant told me the movement would have been lost.

I could go on. Maybe weve been unlucky but id sack all 3 of the GPs weve used in the last year. Not fit for purpose. There seems to be a far higher standard of employee in the hospital for some reason.
21

ddmc,

03/07/2008 09:44:58
#21 ties are an infection vector. The BMA make a good job of vetting foriegn doctors.

#13 doesnt the NHS provide your indemnity cover ? also as GP's are paid on a par with hospital consultants, more will move into GP roles.

I think the way the original deal was sold is where the problems lie. The Govt spin was large increase in salary to compensate for additional primary care, longer opening hours (not that i've seen any evidence if this) etc, more control over clinic budgets. Whereas the impression many people have is that GP's have increased salary but havent changed working practices. 50% of the population work but cant see a GP after work hours, are GP's not allowed to work shifts ?.

The 48 hours rule is a joke, call my clinic after 8:30 am to be told call back tomorrow we havent any appts, this continues for days until you get an appt or bring it to their attention that you have called in 3 days in a row.
22

Dr JS,

ABERDEEN 03/07/2008 10:07:39
thats right folks........... your doctors are lazy, incompetent, uncaring, overpaid, underqualified, arrogant, duplicitous, greedy, crooks, criminals , conmen, thieves, liars.............the list goes on and on......

you believe all this, it must be true because our wonderful politicians tell you so!!!

#17- "doctorate"- dont make me laugh boy..... I did o levels (straight A'S) WHEN THEY MEANT SOMETHING! AND FOUR A LEVELS (IN THE LATE SIXTIES WHEN THE BRITISH EDUCATION SYSTEM WAS THE ENVY OF THE WORLD) so please dunee tell me I aint no doctor!

and charlie boy....behave yourself.

23

Miss H,

03/07/2008 10:18:03
The problem to my mind is lack of scrutiny. Elected health boards may make some difference but I would like to see local authorities take on a scrutiny role in health care. Note I am NOT saying that local authorities should take responsibility for health services but they should be able to scrutinise decisions and outcomes. The management of the NHS has been pretty much unaccountable for decades and that is what has to change. And there should be greater integration with other services including social work and education.

24

Alan B,

03/07/2008 10:51:44
I think there are a few problems:

1)labour were completely incompetent when it came to the nhs. they had believed there own hype regarding their anti tory stance than when they came to power they had no clear vision of how to sort out the nhs.

2)the money thrown at gps and doctors in general was a solution to a problem largely in the south east of england. Doctors were not particularly well paid compared to some other jobs in london however they were well paid compared to all other regions.

3)the labour government confused 2 issues. There was a real issue over the hours of coverage that a gp was to provide. There also was a problem of capacity within the nhs both in hospitals and gps.

What the government should have done is increase that capacity. To a large extent that means training more doctors. So rather than paying them more they should have increased the number of doctors.

From memory even under the tories uk doctors were well paid compared to other eu countries but had to work much longer hours.

Overpaying doctors is something the country will have to live with for a long time.

Also if u are going to increase wages significantly u should do it over a period of time to ensure u get the things u expect from the deal.

Labour made the same mess with teachers. They increased wages expected the outcome as per the mcrone report and were sorely disappointed. Teachers took the money they thought was due to them and were not seen to do what labour expected of them.

Although here teachers were underpaid and what the government wanted from them did not make educational sense.

4)there is a big problem with the concept of a gp. For the most part going to a gp is a waste of time. It is simply a filtering system to get rid of the time wasters or petty things before forwarding patients onto be dealt with by specialists.

As such the way i see it is the public should be able to access specialist directly. While i am not medical it would see
25

Alan B,

03/07/2008 10:52:10
cont..

As such the way i see it is the public should be able to access specialist directly. While i am not medical it would seem if u could split gps into say 5 categories then each would be excellent within there medical category. Medicine is too complicated and too wide ranging to be able to cover everything.
26

Alan B,

03/07/2008 10:58:49
There are 2 other issues regarding medicine:

1)medical science is still quite poor. prevention is the best policy because medical science is poor at sorting so many issues. Will be interesting to see if stem cell reseach can address many of those issues.

2)to what extent should nhs spending be directed to those that try to help themselves rather than having to focus on those that do not. Is it fair that those that try to live a health life style within reason should suffer becuase of those that do not bother.


27

Dr JS,

ABERDEEN 03/07/2008 11:25:36
Alan B @ 26-28

You raise some interesting points. You are right with regards to training and capacity. The government is NOT willing to invest in the future of the health service, by correct workforce planning (ie training the correct amount of specialists- just take a look at the shortage of nurses, midwives, consultants, GP's etc etc..... these are the frontline staff required to run a health system)

we now have a situation in the NHS whereby we have "more bureaucrats than beds!!! that is a fact.... we have more managers than actual patient hospital capacity...........LUDICROUS!!!

SECONDLY..... labours INVESTMENT.. in the future of our NHS, is by private funding (PRIVATE FINANCE INITIATIVE OR PFI HOSPITALS BUILT BY PRIVATE PROFIT MAKING COMPANIES) ie the good old "buy now pay later" ethos that means we as taxpayers are commited to tying up valuable resources in the future to service the interest payments to pay for these so called "hospitals"

With regards to a "universal healthcare system" you need an effective "gatekeeper" if you like to prevent secondary care (ie specialists) from becoming swamped. How for example are you to know, which specialist to be referred to without generalist knowlege??

#17- JOHN BOWES- superbugs were unheard of when I was a wee boy. could it be that that the sub contracting of hospital cleaning contracts to "cheap private profit making companies that like to cut corners to maximise share holder profit" and the abolition of the old matrons that demanded a ward be spotless be anything to do with the increase of hospital aquired infections???

maybe you could do a PhD on the subject eh pal??? not sure if youd get a grant though as this government are particularly frugal with regards to research funding






28

Dr JS,

ABERDEEN 03/07/2008 11:31:28
WHY all the fuss people..... why dont they just listen??? why the constant war, waste, manipulation???thats just the way it is....

Standing in line marking time--
Waiting for the welfare dime
'Cause they can't buy a job
The man in the silk suit hurries by
As he catches the poor old ladies' eyes
Just for fun he says "Get a job"

That's just the way it is
Some things will never change
That's just the way it is
But don't you believe them

They say hey little boy you can't go
Where the others go
'Cause you don't look like they do
Said hey old man how can you stand
To think that way
Did you really think about it
Before you made the rules
He said, Son

That's just the way it is
Some things will never change
That's just the way it is
But don't you believe them

Well they passed a law in '64
To give those who ain't got a little more
But it only goes so far
Because the law another's mind
When all it sees at the hiring time
Is the line on the color bar

That's just the way it is
Some things will never change
That's just the way it is
But don't you believe them


29

Bigwull,

edinburgh 03/07/2008 12:05:07
Funny I always though GP's were failed Hospital Doctors and now they appear to be best paid what a funny world we live in, mind you they've done well out of the new contract, almost as well as Personnel Departments
30

Alan B,

03/07/2008 12:11:46
#Dr JS

"if you like to prevent secondary care (ie specialists) from becoming swamped. How for example are you to know, which specialist to be referred to without generalist knowlege"

My point was for gps to be more specialist. Not maybe as specialist as hopital doctors. I would use a nurse to be more the "gatekeeper" so that people making appointment can be directed to the right area. I do not think swamping is so much an issue as i am talking about gps taking on the specialist roles.

As such if u have a nasal issue u could direct urself to ENT. If you have a sore back etc. We could also have gps aswell.

I just think alot of time is wasted by GP being an expensive filtering system. Does the US not let people more directly access specialists.

If u have a bad knee. Why can u not just go directly to a doctor who will have access to the equipment to do the necessary scans etc.

With dentists and opticians patients can access medical professionals in these areas. I think to some extent we could do that with certain other areas to allow more specialisation of gps.

eg in a gp practise of say 5 gps. Having each one a specialist in 5 different categories would allow more to be done at a primary care level.

As i say i am not medical and hence it is very much a lay persons point of view.

Tattoo removal etc should not involve doctors even for an initial visit. The well clinics should not involve doctors but nurses. Screening etc the same (i believe this has already happened).

I have even noticed if u wnat to go private in the uk u need a gp referal. The patient does not want this and i cannot see the benefit to the gp as it wastes his/her time.


31

Alan B,

03/07/2008 12:13:50
#Bigwull

"Funny I always though GP's were failed Hospital Doctors "

From what i have seen that is not the case. It just depends on what the doctor is interested in after studying for so long.


32

Dr JS,

ABERDEEN 03/07/2008 12:35:08
Alan B @ 32

You are absolutely spot on. There is what are known as GPwSI's (or General Practitioners With a specialist interest) that are able to run more specialised services. My own interests currently are diabetes care, and minor surgery. I have collegues who have worked extensively in secondary care (some even as quite senior registrars in cardiology, surgery etc) who now provide a more of specialised service with regards this. I think this should be the way forward. remember medicine is a constantly changing subject. New treatments and research are continuing to develop at an ever increasing pace.

some years ago something as simple now, as a gallbladder removal would have meant several days in hospirtal and can now be done with "key hole" minimally invasive procedure as a "day case"..wonderful.

Im all for improving care..... but we must not "scrimp on quality" these days training is being "watered down". to cut down costs. New labour have promised to "train more consultants" when in fact all they have done is change the old senior regisrar grade to a "junior consultant". it takes years of experience to become a specialist- weather in family medicine, or cardiology etc.... and this costs money... but it is a worthwhile investment..

unfortunately this government has an obsession with spin, micromangement, soundbites, empty targets and statistics... which is diverting attention and funds away from those who need it..

33

Dr JS,

ABERDEEN 03/07/2008 12:58:06
AlanB @ 32

With regards to direct acess to specialists- you may not always need to see a specialist. The beauty of clinical medicine is "ability to diagnose and treat".

Take for example your painful knee. It may simply be a case of a sprain or strained ligament, which may just do well with rest. It may be the result of "wear and tear"- or arthritis etc- which may again be very early and settle with rest, simple painkillers or light excercise physio etc. You may however need a referral, if appropriate. Do not confuse the use of "super dooper scans etc" quite often they are expensive and a "waste of resources"

Your comparison with the American sytem, may be out of place when comparing to our own. Remember 50million americans have no access to advanced medicaine- something I find obscene considering american GDP (£15 TRILLION with only 6 times our population- meaning almost 1 in 6 americans has a third world healthcare)

Americans routinely CT scan an abdomen for diagnosis of appendicitis!!!! this is s aimple clinical diagnosis, so why waste money ( and give the patient the equivalent of 300 chest x-rays radiation)??? could it be litigation (or the practice of defensive medicine?)

watch michael moores film "sicko" and see for yourself.

Private medicine serves for profit and not patient care.
34

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 03/07/2008 13:37:08

Well the answer is sweet and simple, it will save everyone hassle and makes perfect sense.

Gp's, say they are 'fed-up' to the teeth, and dont want the work no-more, they say, rightly so, they dont 'specialise' .

Easy answer, set up health clinics, recruit more nurses and pay them more, train them to a higher standard, this will be our new primary care at half the cost.

As pointed out in above posts, Gp's dont have the resource to give much care, one may wonder whats the point these days, of the GP, ?
35

snoozyowl,

Wales 03/07/2008 13:54:47
The moment you allow any profession to get its hands directly onto the money, you know what will happen. It did, no suprise. The failures were (a) gullible Labour politicians who (perhaps?) believed that generosity would be repaid with commensurate extra cooperation, and (b) civil servants, who failed miserably to ensure that the politicians understood the real world. The only way to do this sort of thing is to be really tough and force the doctors to become state employees. As they already get state pensions, the usual problem of cost would not occur. Then they could be dismissed if they didn't work in a manner satisfactory to the public. Right now the public has the worst of both worlds - no accountability and very high costs.
36

Moder8,

EDINBURGH 03/07/2008 14:29:08
I notice that no mention is made about the cost of all the external "consultants" on IT, health and safety, time and motion, good practice, prescription monitoring, performance study, reports on this that and the other....a exponential growth industry has developed external to the health service, but whose payment comes from the Health Service funds.Those drones account for a large part of the budget but their work does very little to address the problems except to create more paperwork for the workers to fill in and other non productive workers to read and write further reports on.
37

Dr JS,

THE GRANITE CITY 03/07/2008 14:37:26
Charlie Boy @ 36

Have you not read a word of my posts???

"Easy answer, set up health clinics, recruit more nurses and pay them more, train them to a higher standard, this will be our new primary care at half the cost. "

You clearly have not benefited from one word of my wisdom. OR ARE YOU SIMPLY MOCKING ME BOY!!!???

Nurses are clearly the solution to ALL of our problems.
We are short of oil, so lets train more nurses to become geologists and solve the world energy crisis?!

or how about this? our beloved armed forces are stretched in afghanistan and iraq, so lets train more nurses to take on al-qaida and the taliban???!!!

Or how about the world food shortage, lets train more nurses in biotechnology so that we can as bob geldof once sang "feed the world"

You clearly have fallen hook , line and sinker for the lies eminating from westminster.... I hear that when it comes to pork pies, westminster now boasts a larger range than melton mowbrey!!!

wait a minute....why not train nurses to lead this country...... yes pigs may indeed one day take flight.





38

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 03/07/2008 16:02:29

Dr JS ~39,

I am not into, "Mocking" anyone, thats not my style.

However what is apparent, is that the "GP" of these days, are sick of their job and the politics involved, totally exasperated infact to the point now of the public being unable to benefit from a, now fast becoming, 'non service' to anyone.

I am sure the, 'fresh blood' of even Polish nurses would take delighit in earning one third of your pay and would be delighted to work extra hours, to help many.

Also as you said and a number of comments have brought up,.....

Unless it is more than a 'cold sore' so to speak, one is referred to our hospitals, even you said on my,....

"Meningitis scenario" the poor mother should not bother you and call a Hospital instead, you know all she wanted was a little advice from her GP.

I am quite sure the 'Polish Nurse' would of more than helped this mother, unlike.......

I you say, I dont want to offend.
39

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 03/07/2008 16:10:02
*I wont say, I do not want to offend*
Re; error last sentence #40

(its from the mobile phone afterall)
:((
40

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 03/07/2008 16:16:16


BTW Dr JS, you do have a sense of humour for a GP, almost as colourful as mine :)
41

Dr JS,

ABERDEEN 03/07/2008 16:20:35
Thank You Charles @42

I would just like to add on the 60th birthday of the nhs, that if we were to hire our polish nurses that for the NHS there would indeed be "light at the end of the tunnel"


unfortunately it would most likley be coming from an oncoming train....... and whats more likley is "its the Branson virgin express!"

BEWARE FOLKS.........
42

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 03/07/2008 16:36:50

Dr JS ~43,

Well you certainly are the 'Medicine Man' you made me laugh on your last comment, thankyou for the conversation and as usual, I am sure our paths will cross again! :)
43

JohnBowes,

03/07/2008 17:33:29
Helmut,(post 21) above says all GP are vetted by the BMA in terms of qualifications. What has that got to do with calling themselves "Doctors"?

I said very few Doctors have a doctorate. In reality, if they don't have a doctorate they are NOT Doctors.

Note helmut (post 21) does not mention what I actually wrote. Why not Helmut? Because you KNOW I am correct. GPs are GPs - the majority do do have a Doctorate. Is that correct Helmut? And if it is correct why do they call themselves that?

As for wearing ties, they harbor germs. And such garments hey pass germs ON in hospital. They are by their very nature LOOSE garments that will swing around and touch things as per patients. YOU are the muppet - a severe fool. A very immature one.
44

JohnBowes,

03/07/2008 17:35:48
Some on this thread claim to be "Doctors". One can claim anything online eh? Everybody knows that. Anybody can create umpteen names and use all of them on a board like this as well. Children know that.

Also note that GPs are self-employed. They are in essence business people. Its all about money.
45

JohnBowes,

03/07/2008 17:36:50
Having read all the above posts, its plain that one person has wrote most of them. One person many names. REALLY pathetic stuff eh?
46

Dr JS,

ABERDEEN 03/07/2008 17:54:23
John Bowes

@45, 46, 47.

You really do seem to have "a bee in your bonnet" about doctors calling themselves "doctors"

why should only those with PhD's have the right to call themselves "doctor"? are you a disgruntled "academic" who was nay able to get into medical school???

A doctorate is "not difficult" to obtain academically my son, and if you knew anything about, education, academia, research you would indeed know this. MRCP, MD, MRCGP, MRCS, MRCOG, MRCOpth, are all clinical qualifications, and I defy you to try and belittle those that have achieved them.

Even my MBChB, and MRCGP qualifications have taken nearly 10 years in total. so please if you really think that coming onto these forums and throwing your "wee toys outta your pram" impresses anyone you are greatly mistaken.

sure a clinical botanist can claim he has a doctorate, but he sure as well wouldn't know the first thing about saving your life if it came to the crunch, same with a theoretical physicist... if you want to flex your academic muscles at me boy...... BRING IT ON!!




47

Senga Jean,

03/07/2008 18:02:53
So the Wesminster Government and the Lib/Dem Labour Executive screwed up? Another fine mess they left us with!
48

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 03/07/2008 18:20:30
Dr JS ~48,

Agreed to insult the integrity of others, and as far as I can see there is only one Doctor making comment, for the learning of others, #45~47 is maybe a deliberate attempt to spoil the page, instead of giving useful input.
49

SlyFifer,

California 03/07/2008 18:22:10
The problem with socialised medicine is just - that. It's socialised. The government has thrown literaly billions at this leviathian and it still stinks. My little use of the service always provided me with excellent service. The concept is fine but the operation/ bureaurocracy frightening and that's where the bulk of the money goes. The system here works little better so somewhere, there is a happy meduim. It needs to be found. Oh, and all the masses of money taken in taxation to fund this mess, credited back to the taxpayer, once and for all. Maybe then the petrol price will drop to affordable levels.
50

Big Jock McDoc,

Scotland 03/07/2008 18:30:42
To Dr JS, ABERDEEN

I don't have anything to add to this thread but would like to thank you for the insightful and interesting posts that you have made.

It honestly makes a change from the trollish nonsense that usually derails the threads on this website.

Keep up the good work and don't let the trolls get you down!!!
51

Scythia,

Scotland 03/07/2008 18:39:45
They will never deliver a first class health care system run from the public sector.
This is the fundamental error most fail to see. The solution is to break it up and privatise it. Bring in a system of medicare insurance as per Holland / Belgium.

Focus therein on efficiency and productivity improvements.Most of all stop throwing good money after bad, and remove the ideological baggage that states the NHS must be run from the public sector.

Even ( chronic) nanny states such as Sweden has private involvement in healthcare. We simply cant continue wasting taxpayers money on this bottomless pit..

Oh , and I would love state how wonderful my experience has been with the NHS, unfortunately I can't. Poor service , arrogant Doctors, rude Nurses etc,etc.. 2nd rate indeed.

52

Dr JS,

ABERDEEN 03/07/2008 20:44:42
Thank you Big Joc Macdoc @52 for your kind words.

To scythia- @53- the idea that only "private sector" can deliver in healthcare is not always true.

Medicare insurance is precisely the problem in America. For those who are covered it is fine, but remeber "insurance companies "are renowned for taking your premiums when times are good, and failing to pay when you need them.


I have seen personally within my practice how variable private medicine can be. When you bring money into a healthcare frame, invariably patients will be shortchanged.

take the gentleman in post 32 with a painful knee- If he were to see an unscrupulous surgeon privately he may be offered an arthroscopy (invasive) instead of an MRI scan. Also I have noticed that some surgeons have a much "lower threashold" to operate privately {when they are paid the big bucks} as opposed to the national health sector. As a result I am very careful to whom I refer privately.

I think that the fundamentals on which the NHS were founded were fantastic. However attitudes and demands have changed. Take for example my beloved elderly patients.... who were around before 1948.....there attitudes are completely different to the youth of today. Why? because they can remember hardship and a time when if you didnt have the money to see a doctor...you simply died. As a result they are much more appreciative and patient. Sure things are far from perfect but I guess they can remember the alternative..


Todays young however, have become increasingly expectant....they "demand" because it is "their right" The current trend is to pitch healthcare as a buisness........my collegues in a+e call the department "the shop floor" patients are commonly referred to as "customers" and "the cutomer is always right".

thats fine, but remember we operate within finite budgets, and with that "choices have to be made"

I think that we will very soon be granted a charter, whereby we will be told what will be provided for a
53

Dr JS,

ABERDEEN 03/07/2008 20:46:26
continued

and what will need to be funded additionally through insurance, etc

54

Hugh ,

Edinburgh 03/07/2008 20:50:59
Scythia,Scotland 03/07/2008 18:39:45

Coal mining and the railways had to be nationalised for the public good as the private companies were unable to cope. Same with health care. Look at the private health care in the US. None existent for most.

How many nations entrust their national defence to private companies, and how many to a national army?
55

wattie>x 1,

PLYMOUTH 03/07/2008 20:55:26
What the hell can one expect[ coming from the worst ever UK government in living memory?
The New Labour Party regime is riddled with failed Lawyers etc. and personal cronies in jobs they haven't a clue about. I listened to one off their health ministers - Ben Bradshaw who had a homosexual wedding -being interviewed by Jon Snow on Channel4 the other evening on a similar subject. What would this person know about the medical profession, when we have highly skilled people on the Medical Council well fitted to run the NHS?
The sooner the shower of present amateur political impostors are removed, the sooner we may be able to have a more stable society.
56

Dr JS,

ABERDEEN 03/07/2008 21:38:48
wattie>x @57

Dunee be to hard on our beloved "loyal servants" in westminster. Afterall just looks at the wonderful things that have been achieved within the NUlabour tenure..

Education Education Education... Do you remember that one?? Well now we boast the finest education system in the world, where I here now that mischevious young school children are rewarded for writing expletives on examination papers!! ( but only if there spelling and grammar are correct- cant be seen as soft touch can we?)

Next we have "tough on crime and the causes of crime" now this one was good! some excellent progress has been made on this pledge.... we now have
"feral youths" and teenage gangs running amock with weapons and inner city areas that have become no go areas!!

the litany of lies goes on and on...

As for our friend Ben Bradshaw... today I hear he has accused GP's of "limiting access to care by making gentlemans agreements for GP practices not to poach one anothers patients" Funny coming from a minister whos party has just shown utter contempt for democratic principals by their "seedy" gentlemans deals to " protect our freedoms with the extremely necessary 42 day terror limit" (are you sure no deals were done here- was keith vaz touted a peerage- surely not politicians dont tell porkies)

How aboot our beloved referendum on the EU treaty

How many of our Mp's have been caught with "their hands in the till" with expenses claims, or "their trousers/ and or knickers around their ankles in sordid affairs that have been exposed?" Nu labour certainly cant be faulted for cleaning up politics

So I am sure you can see that everything that we are told is completly true and we can trust our ministers 100 per cent





57

Dr JS,

ABERDEEN 03/07/2008 21:58:50
Indeed readers the old saying that "99 percent of politicians give the rest a bad name" is simply not true

"No more boom and bust"- can we not see folks its boomtime.....economic prospects have never been so good.. "were in the money!!!"

McBroon, youve got my vote ladee..........good show old boy
58

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 03/07/2008 22:13:34

Dr JS ~several,

Gosh you are still talking the subject,....

'A Man of Passion'

'Passionate' about the work you do, and 'Quite Rightly' so.

Just as "Passionate" as I am, when it come to Baby issues, conception to Birth and Beyond!

That's why I mainly post in the 'Health Pages' IVF our main concern.

It is a shame though, at times people feel it necessary to go beyond the point of no respect for others, as was #7 I take it, which I can find later even though it was "removed"

'Curiosity Killed The Cat',...'HUH,? :)

Catch-up later no-doubt, just to say your input on here today is 'Brilliant!'

Now I have 'Learnt' Sir! :)
59

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 03/07/2008 22:15:50

Bet we will still, Bl***y argue at times,? :))
60

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 03/07/2008 22:24:24
(found it #7)

someting about football?.

'beats me'! why removed.
61

Dr JS,

ABERDEEN 03/07/2008 22:37:18
charles- always a pleasure to "argue" with you sir. Regards

62

bus user,

edinburgh 03/07/2008 23:53:46
NHS wastes resources? To whom, exacly, is this a surprise. My entire experience, with one signal exception, has been negative. Am I alone? My dying mother had a saline drip simply removed by an auxiliary, in front of her family, with no word of explanation. Whole range of issues there, but, I am no automatic fan of NHS.





 

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