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Clinton demands last-ditch change to rules



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Published Date: 22 May 2008
HILLARY Clinton yesterday took her battered primary campaign to Florida, seeking not votes but a change in the rules.
She hopes the Democratic Party will lift a ban on the primaries held earlier this year in Florida and Michigan, a move that represents her last realistic chance of staying in the nomination race.

"I'm going to keep standing up for the voters of F
lorida and Michigan," she told cheering supporters.

"I'm going to continue making our case until we have a nominee, whoever she may be."

Her task became more urgent this week when rival Barack Obama reached a significant milestone: After victory in Oregon and defeat in Kentucky, Mr Obama has won more than half of all the available elected delegates in the primary race, prompting him to tell supporters that victory is "within reach".

Absolute victory can be assured under existing rules if Mr Obama gets a further 64 delegates from the three remaining primaries and from party appointed superdelegates.

Mrs Clinton, meanwhile, is putting her focus on changing those rules.

Florida and Michigan had the results of their primaries cancelled by the Democratic Party, after they moved forward their election dates without permission.

Mrs Clinton won both elections and has demanded that the results be counted. But Mr Obama, whose name was not on the ballot of Michigan, argues that these elections are invalid because neither candidate was allowed to campaign, and many voters stayed at home.

For both sides, the key date is 31 May, when the Democratic National Committee's Rules Committee meets to decide the issue.

With this in mind Mrs Clinton is touring Florida, one of the most populous states and a must-win for Democrats in the presidential battle still to come.

"We do believe that Michigan and Florida will be seated… as the votes were cast," said Clinton communications director Howard Wolfson. "We will obviously get these delegates."

This new front in the primary war has put many of the party top brass on edge.

The rules committee does not want to upset Mrs Clinton, least of all because she has rich backers who fill the party war chest.

Equally, the committee knows it will have problems explaining to Mr Obama why, having forbidden him from campaigning in Florida and Michigan, it may now rule that those results can count.

"They are saying, change the rules at the last minute so we can win," said Carl Bernstein, Mrs Clinton's biographer. Reinforcing Mrs Clinton's argument is her ability, despite being well behind Mr Obama, to carve out victories, winning Kentucky on Tuesday with 65 per cent of the vote.

But some party officials think the rules committee will find it impossible to reverse the decision. "There's virtually no way that the rules committee is going to do anything that is of major significant help to Hillary," said Phil Noble, a pollster.

Mr Obama himself is trying to switch the emphasis from the primary battle to the presidential election to come.

IN NUMBERS

64
The number of delegates Obama needs for the nomination.

1,962
Obama delegates overall.

2,026
needed for the nomination in total.

Clinton has 1,779.

58
per cent share of the votes won by Obama in Oregon to 42 per cent for Clinton.

65
per cent to 30 per cent – number of votes won in Kentucky by Clinton over Obama.

Nine in 10
ballots in Kentucky cast by white voters.

One in five
whites in Kentucky said race played a role in choosing their candidate.

One in 10
voters in Oregon who said the racial origin of the candidates was important in making their decision.

$29.5 million
The amount Clinton's campaign is now in debt.

$46.6 million
The amount Obama had in the bank at the end of April.



The full article contains 639 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Scullion,

Canada 22/05/2008 01:26:08
When does fighting spirit turn into foolhardiness? Hillary would have made not a bad leader but she's a second prizer in this contest.
2

right of center,

Chicago 22/05/2008 02:14:16
The media adored Obama and never looked into his past or asked him the tough questions early on. If the Dems knew then what they know now about Obama he would not have won Iowa or any other State and Hillary would have won the nomination months ago.
3

Dekester,

Canada's westcoast 22/05/2008 02:30:45
#2. Yes, but they didn't. How on earth could the DNC look the electorate in the eye and change the rules.

Would there be this fuss if Clinton was leading?

The black vote (90%) Democrat would revolt. The Republicans would be dancing in the streets if the rules were changed.

The Democrats shot themselves in the foot, and their congress knows Obama will never get elected president.

They F****d up big time. They really did.

Oh well there is always 2012.

All the best.

4

Stuart 2,

Pennsylvania 22/05/2008 03:35:58
First, Queen Hillary goes with the rules because she thought there that she wouldn't have any opposition.

Second, Oh my! This guy Obama is serious and is getting deligates. Better get on the ballot in Michigan and Florida for insurance.

Third, Obama is getting too many votes, better call in some chips from the super deligates.

Fourth, That isn't working either and Obama is getting closer to winning the nomination. Better cash in my insurance.

Fifth, If that doesen't work then Queen Hillary have to study Karl Marx to see what I can do at the convention.

Nothing new for Hillary. She would sell her soul to the devil and do and say anything (except tell the truth)to win the presidential election.
5

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 22/05/2008 04:50:01
opinion polls are showing that Obama would easily defeat McCain in general election. People seem to underestimate how unpopular the Republicans are. they lost congress & senate in 2006 for a reason, and their popularity has only declined since then. There's been several 'emergency'elections in the last few weeks and the Republicans are doing very very badly, they've been losing seats in the congress that they've held for decades. Obama may have some baggage, but he's not a republican and so he'll be heavily favored by sober observers.

If republicans wanted to win the election, then they'd have to heed the popular will and pull back on the war efforts. The irony here is that Obama will continue the general 'war on terror' policies. He's not really an opponent of most of what the Republicans have done to make them unpopular, he just has a different image.

Maybe everyone will cheer President-elect Obama in November feeling so good to turn out the Republicans, but in reality 'we the people' will be the losers as neither the democrats or the republicans heed our sympathies or our interests.

Ron Paul was the candidate of our interests and the media really did persecute against him.
6

Dekester,

Canada's westcoast 22/05/2008 05:31:51
Wally. I can't vote in U.S elections, however I really enjoy the process.

From what I hear and see. It appears that although Obama may be popular.
There is no way that enough Reagan Democrats, Hispanics in Texas or the Blue collar folks from Ohio, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Kentucky etc. will vote his way and McCain will carry Florida for sure

It is hard for to envisage McCain doing badly enough in the run up to November to lose this. I will give you 2 - 1 on it.

All the best.
7

Proximaking,

Dundee 22/05/2008 07:19:25
Does America really need a person like Obama who turns his back on his friends, Wright, however daft those friends happen to be? Maybe it does, after all America has been turning its back on its real friends for years.
8

911 was an inside job.,

22/05/2008 07:48:24
Losers always want to change the rules midway through the game. Hillary is a poor loser.

She gives women a bad name. Keep her out of the Whitehouse.
9

911 was an inside job.,

22/05/2008 07:48:37
Vote Ron Paul instead.
10

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 22/05/2008 08:39:15
#6

If Obama names Gov Bill Richardson as his running mate he will take the majority of the Hispanic vote away from McCain, one of the few areas where his support is strong.

#9

I love Ron Paul, he is like a Republican Ralph Nader.
The same way Nader cost Gore the Presidency, Ron Paul is going to cost McCain.

Vote Ron Paul.
11

Boy Wonder,

22/05/2008 08:46:05
This is how our Prime Ministers should be elected, regardless of which party has most seats. Our Lord provosts and Mayors too. Make them directly accountable to the public, not necessarily the party!
12

Silence of the Yams,

22/05/2008 08:54:24
#2 is correct. The US MSM have been disgracefully inept!
13

Alan B,

22/05/2008 10:31:49
It does seem disgraceful that primaries won by one candidate can be cancelled. It does smell of corruption.

Would probably rather have Obama, do not particularly like Hilary disallowing primaries she won does seem wrong. (Re-run them if necessary).

Have to say both candidates seem poor options. Yes it would be good to have woman or a black guy as president. But part of the problem is u tend to support them for that reason not becuase they are any good.

Hilary with her lies about being under sniper fire shows what a ridiculous and dishonest candidate she is. Obama's critisms of NAFTA are silly and playing to an economically illiterate audience. Teh fact that it became common knowledge that his economic advisor told the canadians not to worry it was just political posturing shows how dishonest he is too.

Not a McCain fan but atleast he is honest about free trade and its benefits.

The only reason i would probably go for Obama, as he is the only candidate that may help in the middle east and distance himself from the dreadful pro-israel policies of the US.
14

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

22/05/2008 10:39:58
#5 wally - I don't know which polls you are looking at but state-by-state polls have consistently shown that Clinton beats McCain whilst Obama loses to McCain.

http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Clinton/Maps/May22.html

Clinton 310 McCain 211 Ties 17

http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Obama/Maps/May22.html

Obama 242 McCain 285 ties 11
15

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

22/05/2008 10:46:25
#13 I agree that neither of the Dem candidates are particularly good. I know that the DNC are trying to paint McCain as Bush III but I think it could backfire on them. McCain (Iraq excepted) is about as liberal a repuiblican as you could get.

What could be interesting is who they pick as their VP. I would not be surprised if either picks a non-democrat to widen their base. Chuck Hagel - the republican senator for Nebrasks has been very critical of Bush and is a known admirer of Obama. Joe Lieberman, the independent democrat could be a possibility for McCain.
16

bikewoman,

22/05/2008 10:51:07
14 The Federalist

Wally lives in his own little world and always makes things up. There are NO polls showing Obama beating Mccain. Wally is notorious for making America look bad, that is why he still supports the nutter Paul.
17

Carolyn 1,

22/05/2008 13:01:47
It's unfortunate that the media decided to make the election process about racism.

It's unfortunate that the media decided months ago to elect Obama president.

One example, Obama attracts huge crowds to his speeches - which is reported world-wide as proof of his popularity, - unfortunately the news media conveniently edits that out.
18

Carolyn 1,

22/05/2008 13:03:19
ooops- my last sentence was not right-

One example, Obama attracts huge crowds to his speeches - which is reported world-wide as proof of his popularity, - unfortunately the news media conveniently edits out that there's a free concert before he speaks.
19

Carolyn 1,

22/05/2008 13:13:05
The Rules Committee meets May 31st to decide whether or not Florida and Michigan are part of the US voting electorate.
The Rules Committee is committed to an Obama win so it will be interesting to watch how they guarantee that win, while not appearing to be ignoring the thousands who voted for Clinton in Florida.

Women's groups have raised piles of money to support Clinton at that meeting and the convention. Not to worry about money- Clinton will have what she needs. We're making plans to go!!

20

,

22/05/2008 13:40:08
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21

,

22/05/2008 13:42:20
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22

mike - across the pond,

wally 22/05/2008 15:20:58
we've talked about polls... and how unrelaible they are...

in the light of day, with lots of screaming people around... BO polls VERY well...

unfortunately polling places have NEITHER of these attributes...

LOOK at the polls... (do us ALL a favor, please ignore the outliers like NYTimes/NBC who are in the pocket of BO) Look at them critically...

BO is running 5-10% ahead in the polls of the net outcome at the ballot box... in the case of NYTimes, its looking more like 15-20% (which only goes to show HOW much of an outlier THEY are)... and before you go nuts... go back to the '88 DNC primary in michigan... from a polling perspective Jesse Jackson was indistinguishable from "the crowd" of DNC candidates... he pulled 55% of the vote there....

BO will not have a "caucas" atmosphere to drive his vote...

do you LISTEN to BO? really listen?

I know you dont LIKE McCain, but LISTEN to BO... CRITICALLY... hes WORSE than anything McCain says or has done...

yesterday mr BO took McCain to task over a 10 year old campaign reform bill McCain sponsored that never made it out of committee... how loudly is the BO crowd going to scream "NOT FAIR" when they scrutinize BO's brief history of proposed legislation???
23

John Blackley,

Florida 22/05/2008 15:23:13
Mrs. Clinton, it's time to go.

While I respected your tenacity and endorsed your right to fight this primary to the bitter end, when you resort to hypocrasy it's time to give up.

In the early stages of the primary - when the DNC had already decided to not seat the FL and MI delegates, we heard not a peep from you about the 'injustice' of it all. Now that Obama's all-but got you beat, all-of-a-sudden the 'injustice' is your cause of the week.

Granted, the DNC has handled this badly - if they don't seat the delegates they're disenfranchising voters. If they do seat them, they're handing the Republicans a stick to beat them with for their flip-flopping.

But you, Mrs. Clinton, don't have to make that stick any bigger or any heavier. Go home.
24

Dáithí,

San Jose 22/05/2008 15:39:28
>"Vote Ron Paul instead."

Ron Paul subscribes to many 'conspiracy theories' and this is a sign of mental illness. The American people dislile people like this and that is why they reject him.

He also hates the poor because he wants to end income taxes so that the rich can keep their money and none of it will go to the poor. True Americans see him for this and hate him because of it.
25

Sandi,

San Diego 22/05/2008 15:41:42
What a pity that reporters writing about "rules" don't take the time to read the actual "rules" before they write. If they did, this rubbish would never have been written.

Hillary Clinton is not looking to "change the rules", she simply wants the DNC to comply with its own rules.

This link will take you to the Adobe file of the DNC Delegate Selection Rules for the 2008 election.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/39wg3s

The critical one is Rule 11A. This rule was broken by Michigan and Florida, and also by Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina.

The penalty for breaking Rule 11A is outlined in Rule 20C1A. According to the Rule, all five of those States should have had their delegates reduced by 50%. However, Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina were not penalized at all, while Michigan and Florida had all their delegates stripped from them. The DNC is applying rules arbitrarily.

This is what the Clinton campaign is addressing. The DNC either penalizes Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina, or they have to seat Florida and Michigan as they voted. In Michigan, Obama, Edwards, Biden and Richardson voluntarily removed their names from the ballot so the "uncommitted" votes should be split equally between all of them. This would give Obama less thant the 10% required to get any delegates and so he would get none from Michigan. In Florida, Obama was the only candidate to campaign in the state (televison ads and a press conference following a fundraiser), despite the DNC fiat that none of them were to campaign in Florida. Failure to comply with that rule was to receive no delegates from Florida.
26

Black Beard,

22/05/2008 15:43:29
Barack can't win because the more we learn of him the worse it gets.

Obama's buddies:
Bill Ayers- Terrorist and certifiable loon.
Reverend Wright- Bigot.
Robert Malley- Hamas supporter.


Obama quotes (He really said these things!!)

"I ceased to advertise my mother's race at the age of 12 or 13, when I began to suspect that by doing so I was ingratiating myself to whites."

"There was something about him that made me wary, a little too sure of himself, maybe. And white."---he'd said himself that was a problem." (Who was that idiot who thought his being white was the problem??)

It remained necessary to prove which side you were on, to show your loyalty to the black masses, to strike out and name names." (Is this how we unify people Barack?)

“And it’s not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.” (No, you can't have my gun.)

"I had learned not to care. I blew a few smoke rings, remembering those years. Pot had helped, and booze; maybe a little blow when you could afford it. Not smack, though. ..." (lol, no smack for Obama)

"It was usually an effective tactic, another one of those tricks I had learned: (White) People were satisfied so long as you were courteous and smiled and made no sudden moves. They were more than satisfied; they were relieved -- such a pleasant surprise to find a well-mannered young black man who didn't seem angry all the time." (What the heck is he talking about?? Is he actually laying claim to his hypocrisy?)

"The point I was making was not that my grandmother harbors any racial animosity. She doesn’t. But she is a typical white person who, uh, you know, if she sees somebody on the street that she doesn’t know there’s a reaction that’s been been bred into, uh, our experiences that don’t go away and that sometimes come out in the wrong way and that’s just
27

Black Beard,

22/05/2008 15:46:07
cont.

the nature of race in our society. We have to break through it." (Not exactly honoring you grandma are you Barack?)

Then there's his lovely wife. Hopefully not our next first lady...

"The truth is, in order to get things like universal health care and a revamped education system, then someone is going to have to give up a piece of their pie so that someone else can have more." (Keep your greedy mitts away from my pie lady. I earned it. It's mine, and you can't have any.)
28

,

22/05/2008 15:47:52
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29

,

22/05/2008 15:57:05
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30

,

22/05/2008 16:04:12
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31

,

22/05/2008 16:05:07
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32

WaIly,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 22/05/2008 16:07:27
Interesting, the imposter must be signed on at the same as I am as I did not post # 30 either.
33

Sandi,

San Diego 22/05/2008 16:08:58
#29 Wally,

"The candidates were told to withdraw their names from the ballots, which all of them did except for Hilary Clinton."

The candidates were not, at any time, "told to withdraw their names from the ballot".

Barack Obama voluntarily removed his name from the Michigan ballot for two reasons:

1. to try to make Hillary Clinton look bad (and that worked well, didn't it?) and

2. to curry favor from Iowas voters who were angry that Michigan had the gall to steal some of their early-voting thunder.

As you now know having read my previous post at #25, Iowa itself was also out-of-compliance with DNC rules.
34

Sandi,

San Diego 22/05/2008 16:16:25
#30, whoever you are,

Clinton's fundraising is not "drying up". Her campaign raised $22 million in April and is not $25m in debt. They are paying all thier bills. Not quite as much as Obama's $31 million, but his fundraising is down, not her's, and the Obama campaign finished April in debt. They spent more than the vast amount of money the took in and still got crushed by Hillary Clinton in two primaries-W. Virginia and Kentucky..

There is no momentum building for Obama, it's quite the other way around. Hillary now has the lead in the popular vote and, once Michigan and Florida re included, will be almost tied in pledged delegates. This race is a virtual tie. It will go to the Convention and be decided there. It will be the first interesting political convention in recent memory!
35

,

22/05/2008 16:17:14
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36

,

22/05/2008 16:19:11
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37

mike - across the pond,

kampung 22/05/2008 16:35:22
Richardson will not "deliver the hispanic vote"...

richardson is a stiff mccain... an aging politician... who can talk to the hispanic "issues"... but remember McCain is a historically "hispanic friendly" "conservative"...

I would be SHOCKED if McCain doesnt pick a younger/firebrand candidate (rice?) who would carve up Richardson like some christmas goose similar to how Cheney did Leiberman and Edwards...

McCain will take BO appart in the debates... if BO's minions try to turn those debates into a series pep rallies there will be a serious backlash... think of the difference between WJC/Dole and Gore/W... Gore had/has the rockstar persona... debated W to a draw.... looked like he tried to intimidate W after the debate... and was cooked... McCain is no Bob Dole...

BO will try to tie McCain to W's policies... McCain is an experienced politician, and will not so gently point out that BO can run against W if he chooses, however McCain will be his opponent on the ballot.

McCain will call out BO on his inexperience and character, and if BO looks as tired and confused as he has in the past when confronted with these issues... it will be game/set/match McCain....
38

mike - across the pond,

lol 22/05/2008 16:37:50
looks like somebody is playing "whack-a-wally" for real....

would the REAL wally Please stand up?
39

Sandi,

San Diego 22/05/2008 16:52:42
#37, Mike.

"and if BO looks as tired and confused as he has in the past when confronted with these issues"

Don't you mean "sulky and annoyed"? LOL! I thought we weren't supposed to ask him about those things!
40

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 22/05/2008 17:11:43
obviously the Scotsman software is not able to distinguish between me & the imposter. I note my posts are deleted and the imposter's both. Either there's a very serious flaw in Scotsman software or there's a very serious hacker that has my e-mail address. On other forums the software is able to detect the individual computer that posts. Not here apparently.

Many posters have had this problem here.

41

Black Beard,

? I have a crush on Obama ? 22/05/2008 17:16:57
37 Mike-across the pond--Do you really think it matters who the vp is? I remember a young whipper snapper vp that couldn't even spell potato and was eaten alive in a debate with Lloyd Bentson. He had nice teeth and purty hair though.
42

Bemused and above it all,

22/05/2008 17:26:20
#11 you mean actually being allowed to elect a prime minister? how novel!
43

mike - across the pond,

sandi.... 22/05/2008 18:20:31
think '68...

if it goes to the convention.... it will be UGLY...

I dont see either taking the other as a running-mate... willingly anyway...

if Hillary manages to successfully make her argument there will be race riots in Denver....
44

Hugo Rafael Chávez,

Venezuela 22/05/2008 19:05:33
40 Wally

What are you rambling on about now?
45

Sandi,

San Diego 22/05/2008 19:19:17
#43 Mike,

And that would not be Hillary's fault. Democrats can't allow themselves to be blackmailed into supporting Obama by the threat of race riots, or being caled "racist". The latter is happening now. Apparently, the only reason a white person would not vote for Obama is that they are racist. What a uniter he is, similar to the one we already have in the White House.
46

,

22/05/2008 21:06:48
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47

yoric,

22/05/2008 21:13:47
Sounds like Hilary is getting desparate.

Welcome to the good old USA, promoting Democracy in its own image in Iraq, whilst ignoring the lack of Democracy and human rights abuses next door in Saudi Arabia.
The USA, causing 50 years of poverty in Cuba with its sanctions, every person in Cuba gets free Healthcare and an Education, something the USA has not managed to do after 200 years.
48

CombatVet68,

22/05/2008 23:40:18
If you cant win, change the rules! Typical of Hillary Dillary
49

CombatVet68,

22/05/2008 23:44:13
#47 yoric

The biggest problem in the United States Health care system is the greed and graft of the medical providers! Compassion for the suffering has been replaced by love for the almighty dollar!
50

vote4thebest,

CA 22/05/2008 23:44:39
Not counting people's vote is changing the rule, not the other way around.

If the DNC wants to punish Florida and Michigan then they can but they need to punish the politicians and not the people. For example, they can push Florida's back as the last state to vote in the next presidential election. But they have absolutely no right to:
1. Play God to decide how people vote and how their vote should be counted. If they vote for Clinton then it is hers. If they vote uncommitted then they should be uncommitted to reflect the voters’ intent. For anything less than 100% then Clinton and these voters should sue the party for all what it worth!
2. Reward Obama for his cold calculated move to temper with the election process. He consciously made the decision to take his name off the Michigan’s ballot while keeping it on in Florida. He ran TV ads in Florida and ran a very strong drive to ask people to vote uncommitted. He knew that he has a high chance to loose then and made this deliberate decision.
3. Help hiding the fact that none of the so-called civil rights leaders (i.e., Lewis) are not stepping up to make this demand. It is now obvious that they should now be called civil rights oppressors”, or Obama's puppets!
51

SouthernGent,

22/05/2008 23:45:04
#47

Typical US basher. Hold others accountable for your actions.

The US didn't install a communist gov't in Cuba. That would be Castro (s).

Get your facts straight on health care and education too. Both available to all. As a matter of fact, also available to many in this country ILLEGALLY.

As far as HRC goes, OB has not won the nomination as of today, so why should she get out. Like running a 100m race and pulling up just before the finish line. That is certainly a method to lose, but I don't think any candidate is in it to lose.
52

Campbell654,

Woodbridge 22/05/2008 23:49:23

Done with this Sh**! Became a citizen of Us in "71, voted in all elections since. Never, ever, get even close to having who I voted for elected. Could be wrong, but it seems to me people accpet the "sound bites" from the "Talking Heads" on the evening news and couldn't manage an informed decision if their life depended on it!
Moan about the abuse of women in other parts of the world, Oh that's terrible and shake their heads, but will vote for someone with no experience against a women who has done a great job for NY just because her name is CLINTON (or because she's female?). Americans,get over Bill, and Monica, It boggles the mind how many times I've had to listen to that tripe.Who cares what he did with her, and vote for the best PERSON to fill the post.
Maybe I'm just Pis*** I never win...but we need to check out what is said on the news, and not just blindly accept what they can fit in the hour they have.
53

CombatVet68,

22/05/2008 23:59:26
#19 Carolyn 1

It certainly figures that you would be a Clinton supporter. As we have discussed before, you are spiritually dead, for you lack spiritual discernment! I neither favor th Demo-Craps or the Republi-Cons. You profess to be a Christian, but you are blind to just what your candidate represents! She is a liar, first and foremost! She is power hungry and will do whatever it takes to gain the office she seeks. Just how blind can people be?
54

,

23/05/2008 09:05:50
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55

Silence of the Yams,

23/05/2008 13:30:06
Backtrack Osama is a clown. That aside, these votes need to count; he knows it and his henchmen know it.
56

Green booger,

Fife 23/05/2008 13:55:02
It doesn't change the fact that Hillary is a big fat liar.

"I remember landing under sniper fire...We just ran with our heads down..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BfNqhV5hg4



I think Ron Paul is telling the truth about the Fed.
57

mike - across the pond,

campbell654 23/05/2008 15:35:11
the reason I would prefer not to vote for hillary are as follows...
1) she is a fearmonger... the DNC repeats the mantra.... "if you vote for a republican, abortion will be outlawed"... WRONG... abortion is a STATES RIGHTS ISSUE... the supreme court has ruled THAT way for 40 years... without exception...

2) she is a proven liar... with regards to Bill&Monica when she sat by Bill wagging his finger at the american people with his "that woman" speach... She said "I'm not some Loretta Lynne 'stand by your man' woman"... I'm sorry... SHE KNEW... and that makes what she said a LIE... I would have respected her if she had said "I'm not always proud of the things he does, but I took a vow. 'for better or worse' and my word is important to me"... but thats NOT what she did... HE lied... SHE lied... on national TV...

3) her health care plan flat scares me... her figures and statements are WILDLY exaggerated, and if the government would stand up and fix other problems... like illegal immigration... maybe something like, sure you can come here, as an individual you get no governmental assistance of any kind for 5 years, no tuition assistance or mandated health care for 10, no "social security" for 20... we need to take the attitude that you have to be a productive member of our society to benefit from our society... all the sudden the "healthcare crisis" would suddenly dissappear...
58

CombatVet68,

New Babylon 23/05/2008 20:33:05
#57 Mike

I heartily agree with your post! In truth, Hillary and Obama advocate more governmental controls in our lives, as if we don't have more than enough of that mentality in our government today. Obama is in favor of massive gun control! He has voted for every hand gun control issue that has been presented to the Illinois legislature or Congress!
59

CombatVet68,

23/05/2008 21:18:35
#52 Campbell654:

May I say congradulations and belated welcome in becoming a U S Citizen! I am sorry to hear that you favor Hillary Dillary! As for me, I can not support her candidacy for several resons:

1). She knowingly and wilfully lied to all US Citizens and has done more than once! You can not trust anyone who wilfully lies to you!

2). She is in favor and supportive of the Homosexual legitimacy move in this country. Sadly, she is trying to be all things to all people and I don't truly know, nor do you, what her TRUE views are on any issue, except in evaluating her voting record whic is far left. She is playing to special interest groups and dancing to whatever tune they want to play! Obama is doing the same thing.

3). Hillary still has unresolved issues with White Gate. The shredding of many documents, by her instructions, when this matter came to the public eye! I feel she and Billy boy were culpable in the death of their personal "friend" and lawyer, who was preparing to spill the beans over White Gate, but suddenly found himself dead on a park bench one night with a bullet in his brain. Of course I doubt seriously that he or she pulled the trigger, but am reasonably confident that they know why and who did the dirty deed!

4). Her politics certainly supports the elitist view of "Control of the Masses" by government! Her voting record supports the philosophy of the "New World Order". If you compare her views with biblical prophesy, both she and Obama would doubtless support a man like the "anti-christ", based stictly on their personal philosophies alone.

5). Her HICFA (sic) program is a farce, for all it does is add costs to health care providers, which they, in turn, pass along to the patients...you and me! The redundancy and red tape to process one patient, not to mention the additional costs to the insurance claim process, is principally designed to increase labor costs in serving the patient. These are controls that we do not need and are
60

CombatVet68,

New Babylon 23/05/2008 21:36:01
#52 Campbell654: (Cont'd)

These are controls that we do not need and are not beneficial to the consumer, but benefits the insurance companies, in allowing them to reject insurance claims that do not conform to the standards established in the HICFA (sic) program.

6). If she is elected, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to realize that Billy Boy will be right there influencing her decisions! His debacle in Somalia, his passive views on foreign politics, his apathy towards the moral principles which once made this nation strong, not to mention his manipulation of the press, lying to the American people openly, his criminal elitist view that He was above the law, etc., does not encourage me to support his wife, who is plagued by the same lack of morality that her husband has so openly demonstrated.

7). If she pulls troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan abruptly, as she has promised, this will create a political vacuum in this region which will have untold impact upon not only us, but on the entire western hemisphere. These are hard questions! Do we or don't we pull out? If we are hasty, we will enable those who have sworn to destroy us an excellent opportunity to do just that! They once boasted that the Titanic was unsinkable! The United States is strong in military power and technology, but we are not invulnerable, not by a long ways.

While with the US Army Special Forces, I can assure you, that with the right weapon, which I am convinced the terrorists have now or will soon have, I could, with several teams, bring about the death of millions of our citizens and take out no less that 10 major US cities in a matter hours.

These are only a few of the reaons I absolutely will not support Hillarey Dillary or Obama for the high office of President!

61

CowtownSweetheart,

Edinburgh 23/05/2008 22:43:04
From NBC's Mark Murray and Domenico Montanaro
This might not help the Hillary-for-veep chatter... The New York Post writes, "Hillary Clinton today brought up the assassination of Sen. Robert Kennedy while defending her decision to stay in the race against Barack Obama. 'My husband did not wrap up the nomination in 1992 until he won the California primary somewhere in the middle of June, right? We all remember Bobby Kennedy was assassinated in June in California. I don't understand it,' she said, dismissing calls to drop out."

So, just give her the nomination because if she steps out now, somebody might shoot the other guy?
This woman is sick. Somebody stop this now, please.
62

American,

24/05/2008 03:58:56
#1-scullion-Hillary may be a second prizer, but whoever wins the presidency results in Americans winning the "booby prize".
63

American,

24/05/2008 04:00:50
#7-proximaker-"America has been turning its back on its real friends for years"---I think you've got that a little backwards my friend.
64

57Nomad,

california 24/05/2008 14:11:57
#47 yoric

yoric said:

"every person in Cuba gets free Healthcare and an Education, something the USA has not managed to do after 200 years."

Excuse me there yoric, you're getting a little carried away. Passion is good, but you're going to want to start channeling your emotions through your frontal lobe for a little processing before they make you look like a dumbass. Ooops, too late.

FYI The United States has free education for every single child from ages 5 through 18. So, what's with your contention that they have free education in cuba but not in the US? I mean, really yoric, how could you have said something that stupid? Are you referred to as yoric the Yokel where you come from? When the US was expanding westward, territories that had hit certain thresholds could apply for statehood. One of the criteria is that the territory had established a system of free, mandatory public education. Go soak your head.

As to health care you are again indulging in fuzzy thinking. A State can no more mandate free health care than they can mandate a sunny day. You, I'm afraid are concentrating to much on the "free" and not enough on the "health care." Free it is, I will grant you that. The health care part is a different story. After the Cuban government mandated free health care, it began to be apparent that hospitals and medicine didn't magically appear just because El Commandante snapped his fingers. And that's the crux of the problem with your free health care thesis, yoric, no hospitals, no medicine, no up to date equipment, MRI's, etc. They just don't have it and don't lay that embargo crap on me. If they are such a great system why don't make their own stuff. Suppose Cuba embargoed the US? Wouldn't make any difference to us because we can get along without their cigars and they've got nothing else that we want. Why hasn't their scientific and industrial juggernaut, powered by geniuses fresh from their world-class education system figured out how to b
65

CombatVet68,

28/05/2008 23:27:04
#7 Proximaking

I'd like to hear your argument supporting your view that "America has been turning it's back on it's friends for years?" Please be direct and to the point with all of your accumulated knowledge on this subject!

As far as I can tell, our "friends" consist of Canada, Britain and the UK, Germany, Spain, Mexico, Japan, Australia, South Korea, Greenland, Saudi Arbia, Kuwaite, Israel, Italy, etc. Now, as to which ones are truly truly our friends, well, only God knows. With the exception of Israel, wherein I know we have slighted them many times, I can think of none during the past 50 years.

 

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