Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


American voters all set to make history

View Video
Download Video

Video

Senators Barack Obama and John McCain rally their supporters prior to polling day
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 04 November 2008
AMERICANS vote today in what is guaranteed to be a pivotal point in their nation's history: By tomorrow the country will either have its first black president, or it will have witnessed the greatest election upset since polling records began.
To realise just how pivotal a moment this is, look at the state of North Carolina in the American south. If Barack Obama's white mother and black father had lived there when he was born in 1961, their marriage would have been declared illegal under racial laws not repealed until the late 1960s.

Yet now this east coast state, which has voted Democratic only once in the past century, is poised to break for Mr Obama, thanks in part to unprecedented voter registration among the quarter of the population who are black.

Consider also that North Carolina, and eight or nine more formerly Republican states, are likely to give victory to a man from an ethnic minority – African-Americans make up just 12 per cent of the population of the United States.

Visit Scotsman.com from 11pm (UK time) tonight for comprehensive election coverage:

• The very latest news updates from our team in the USA
• Expert reaction and analysis
• A live blog, with the chance to post your own comments
• Pictures, graphics and video from America


Aside from India's prime minister Dr Manmohan Singh, a Sikh, it is hard to think of a modern democracy which is true to its word in allowing all ethnicities to get a shot at being leader.

And consider also that this is a country knocked sideways by the World Trade Centre bombings, seven years on likely to elect a president who's middle name is Hussein: Where else in the world?

"The United States is based on an abstract ideal, it's the one place in the world that does not define itself in terms of ethnicity," says Iowa University historian Allen Steinberg. "A lot of people think this is why America is great – it is because of the possibility of people like Barack Obama."

Win or lose, Mr Obama's candidacy, has galvanised millions of Americans.

"The fact that Obama got this far, the fact that it was the most effective Democratic campaign since ever, that has changed things," says Mr Steinberg.

A McCain victory, meanwhile, would set its own precedent: Until now the biggest upset was in 1948, when the first election to use the new techniques of polling predicted a five-to-fifteen point victory by Tomas Dewey, only for Harry Truman to emerge triumphant.

At the time George Gallup, founder of Gallup polling, was forced to trawl the country's newsrooms begging editors to keep faith with his product and explaining that polling was in its infancy.

This year Mr McCain, by contrast, has a Truman-sized polling handicap on election morning.

In this race the internet has come of age as a political tool: Mr Obama's success in raking in a record $700 million (£435m) in contributions has shown its power, to Republicans as much as Democrats, in a model sure to be copied around the world.

In previous years, Americans had fretted about the way big money was increasingly dominating elections, with predictions that 2008 would see the first billion-dollar campaign, delivering victory not to the best candidate, but the one who could afford to plaster the airwaves with TV advertising.

That prediction has come to pass, but not in the way anyone had expected: Mr Obama's campaign is indeed awash with cash, but it has come from small donors in their millions, re- energising democracy in ways that the rest of the world should applaud.

For this election, for all its vitriol and friction, is what democracy is all about. Neither Mr Obama nor Mr McCain would have had a chance of standing were the nomination process controlled, as in most western democracies, by the parties themselves: Neither man was the darling of his own political establishment.

But the process is controlled by the voters through the instrument of primary elections, and if this process seems noisy and clumsy, it also allows voters a better say in their affairs.

But what makes this election a truly pivotal moment in American history is the huge uncertainty about what comes next.

With the Wall Street collapse, the notion of an economy guided by the "invisible" hand of market forces is as dead as Communism became with the fall of the Berlin Wall.

Americans have not lost their faith in capitalism – their worship of the ideals of freedom and liberty take care of that – but they are now aware that, left to their own devices, bankers will drive themselves off a cliff, taking the rest of the economy with them.

And whether it is Mr McCain or Mr Obama who steps into the White House next January, he will wake up to find a great big question mark jammed into the White House lawn about where the country goes next.

Of the two men, Mr Obama's cure-all is the more adventurous. While Mr McCain wants simply to clear out corrupt bankers and politicians and replace them with honest ones, Mr Obama seems to be stumbling to an updated version of Franklin D. Roosevelt's New Deal, in which the state intervenes to get the wheels of commerce turning .

For the outside world, too, this election is transformative: All those stories in the financial press in recent years about how Asia is where the economy is now at look like so much hot air. when the US sneezes, the rest of the world catches a cold.

Come January the US, humbled by failures on Wall Street and in Iraq, will turn its back on the isolationism of the Bush administration, whichever man takes office.

Mr Obama's commitment to this was graphically illustrated in the summer with his speech before 200,000 in Berlin.

But Mr McCain has put down his own marker, in the form of a promise to back a "league of democracies", trying to find a more workable global organisation than the too exclusive G8 and the too unwieldy United Nations. An outside world, worried about the rising power of tyrannies and issues such as global warming, can expect to find a new engagement come January, and perhaps a new, more listening US.

Finally, of course, there is the matter of race: Mr Obama has gone out of his way to avoid appealing specifically to black voters. And they, once they realised he had a chance, have gone out of their way to support him.

North Carolina, like a clutch of southern states, has seen unprecedented numbers of new African-American voters, thousands of whom queued for hours outside polling booths for early voting throughout last week.

They did so not because black Democratic leaders told them to – most backed rival Hillary Clinton in their party primaries. Rather, they did so because, finally, they feel they have a stake in the political process.

Win or lose, the Obama candidacy has become a transformative event among his supporters in North Carolina.

Blacks have agreed to put aside, at least partly, the horrors of slavery and all that have followed.

White voters have agreed in return to go "colour blind", and they are prepared to follow the "dream" of the late martin Luther King junior, who called for a person to be judged not on the colour of the skin, but the what lies beneath.

Amid all the chaos and uncertainty you will see today from polling stations struggling to cope with unprecedented demand, and the confusion and uncertainty of what follows, tonight, the US may end up reaffirming its core promise, that all men are, indeed, created equal.


Countdown to the result of a lifetime

Midnight: Polls close in five states including Virginia, Indiana and Georgia. In 2004, George W Bush won Indiana by 20 points and Virginia by 8. If any of these three competitive states are quickly called for Obama the Democratic candidate can look forward to a good night. Virginia is most likely to vote Democratic; the longer the count lasts in Indiana and Georgia, the better matters will seem for Obama.

12:30am: Polls close in West Virginia and Ohio. Neither is likely to be called quickly, however. A result from Virginia could be announced now. If Georgia remains "too close to call" then McCain is already in serious difficulties.

1am: Voting ends in 16 states, including Pennsylvania, Florida, New Hampshire and Missouri. Collectively these are worth 63 Electoral College votes and are crucial to both candidates. Missouri is a bellwether state, while McCain has staked almost everything upon a last-ditch effort in Pennsylvania.

1:30am: Arkansas and North Carolina polls close. If North Carolina turns blue then Obama is on course for a landslide victory and pundits will start to talk of a "realignment" of American politics.

2am: Another 14 states close their polls, including the election battlegrounds of Colorado and New Mexico, both of which are expected to endorse Obama. This is likely to be the earliest moment at which results from Florida and Ohio could be announced. McCain needs both. If the Sunshine and Buckeye states vote Democratic, the election is as good as over. Results from Missouri and Indiana may be announced at this time, making 2am the earliest the networks are likely to announce the final result.

3am: Iowa, Utah, Nevada and Montana close. If Obama has won 197 EC votes by 3am then his victory is assured, since the west coast will still have to report.The US TV networks, stung by the mistakes made in 2000, are likely to be cautious about calling states too early. Even so, an "official" unofficial result may be announced at this time.

4am: Polls on the west coast close, giving Obama 73 EC votes from California, Oregon, Washington and Hawaii. McCain's best hope is that Florida, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Colorado and Nevada all remain too close to call at this stage.

6am: Sarah Palin brings in Alaska's three college votes for John McCain. But they are likely to be too little, too late.

ALEX MASSIE


Pitbulls, pigs and plumbers – magic moments on the long road to victory and the White House

Obama pays tribute after his grandmother loses cancer fight on eve of vote

A state-by-state graphic guide to the election


Visit Scotsman.com from 11pm (UK time) tonight for comprehensive election coverage:

• The very latest news updates from our team in the USA
• Expert reaction and analysis
• A live blog, with the chance to post your own comments
• Pictures, graphics and video from America

Page 1 of 1

 
1

2dogs in D.C.,

04/11/2008 00:05:29
THIS...IS....IT. My polling place opens at 0700, I will be there at 0600. And it's just across the street.I want to be first in line. My god, what a long strange trip it's been.
2

Let's have the truth,

Queensland 04/11/2008 00:10:06
"American voters all set to make history"

Absolutely right McCain and the Palin woman will be history. Thank you Buddha.
3

Wally,

Psalm 137 (USA) 04/11/2008 00:12:05
as I post this it is turning past midnight in Scotland. that means it is November 4'th in scotland which is election day.

statisticians at University of Illinois have apparently called the race already in favor of Obama.

http://election08.cs.uiuc.edu/

and as you know the day before the election Obama's grandmother died in Hawaii. even as that was happening Republicans in california filed a claim in court to force the obama family to pay for his campaign's flights out to hawaii to visit his grandmother a week ago. these are the same republicans that spent $150,000 on Palin's wardrobe and called it a campaign expense.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/11/3/141032/949

I remember when John McCain first ran for congress in 1982. I live in his district and I was an active republican sometimes working on campaigns in those days. I went to a political meeting and saw him prior to when he won the republican nomination to be a congressman in 1982. he said then he was a 'conservative'. later there was some doubt, but I see now he's following barry goldwater's footsteps nicely.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/02/AR2008110202409.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

republicans deserve all the defeat that can come to them due to their behavior instigating the civil war and waging it.


4

SouthernGent,

04/11/2008 00:16:57
"They did so not because black Democratic leaders told them to – most backed rival Hillary Clinton in their party primaries"

What kind of bogus reporting is this. The black vote voted against Clinton in the primaries. How does he think Obama beat her?
5

Willie Macleod,

Wick 04/11/2008 00:22:36
2dogs in DC, Best wihes to you and to a Obama victory.

Hope you get the first vote at your polling place, and get other Democrate voters to the polls.


I will be watching the results and hoping.

Good Luck
Willie
6

Wally,

Psalm 137 (USA) 04/11/2008 00:26:44
if you will see the first link I put in #3, the University of Illinois statistics, you'll see how the race is likely to be by 30 hours from now when results maps like this are printed.

mccain was able to keep his home state of arizona. but colorado joined new mexico as a defector to the republicans in the west this time. Virginia and Florida are the 2 large southern states that also defected to the democrats compared to previous elections when the west & south used to be more solid republican. in the upper midwest, Michigan, Wisconsin & Ohio all tilted to obama when they'd previously gone republican. Pennsylvania also went for obama.

Obama wins easily. a democrat victory across the board of historic proportions. this seems most likely.

but the big question is whether Barack Obama will do as John Kennedy said he would do in a speech given in Boston 1 week before he died. JFK said he will 'smash the CIA'. 1 week later he was dead. Will Obama stop the CIA?

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Ecuador_says_CIA_infiltrated_its_military_1031.html
7

SouthernGent,

04/11/2008 00:34:58
Will Obama be able to stop Pelosi is the question. I don't understand how people knock Palin, when Pelosi is 10 times as flighty.
8

,

04/11/2008 00:43:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
9

,

04/11/2008 00:45:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
10

2dogs in D.C.,

04/11/2008 01:07:45
#5-Willie-Thanks kindly,I also took the next day,Wednesday,off. This way I can watch the returns and celebrate or be utterly miserable. Either way, it will most likely involve spirits.
11

SouthernGent,

04/11/2008 01:11:05
Typical liberal, have to take it out of context to make it work for you. Shows your true self - grasping.

And I am voting "against" the democrats, which is much different than voting "for" anybody.
12

Virginian,

USA 04/11/2008 01:21:34
Chris Stephen's Article Quote:

"Tonight, the US may end up reaffirming its core promise, that all men are, indeed, created equal."

Answer:

The Founding Fathers never suggested that all men are created equal.

The concept they enunciated is from the English Common Law that "all men are created equal BEFORE THE LAW."

Our educational establishment in its boundless ignorance misconstrued this simple idea that was understood and taken for granted by the Founding Fathers.
Any child can look and see that no one in the world is created equal in intelligence, appearance, talent, wealth, or anything else.

Only the ignorant and wishful thinking of ill-informed and badly educated writers would mouth this lunatic platitude.

Chris, just think about it. The Founding Fathers of the United States were saying that all men are created equal before the law so that each man, woman and child is entitled to have their individual rights safeguarded before the law on an equal basis.

If all men are created equal then that would mean that babies should be able to vote because they were created equal to all adults.

Chris, this same lunatic twisting of this phrase in the Declaration of Independence has resulted in untold mischief in our culture.

"Equality of outcome" has been the specious reasoning that has taken away from majority citizens and given to minority citizens so as to level each to a false equality.

Chris, this is Marxist doctrine, pure and simple.





13

Postmark-55,

China, 04/11/2008 09:22:58
No matter what happens and who wins, this is the most colourful campaign I remember witnessing, ever.

Good luck to you double dog, I sincerely hope things work out in your favour, and if McCain does manage to slip in the back door, I got a sh!tload of chopsticks for you to use if you do take me up on the offer of you living in China, and you never, ever have to vote:))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) and skip the spirits, stick to catnip eh:))))))))))))))))))))))))))
14

Selgovae,

Scottish Borders 04/11/2008 09:47:26
#12 Virginian

I don't see why you're taking a crack at Chris Stephen who seems to be endorsing your view. If Obama wins, which seems to be his point, it illustrates that high office can be achieved by anyone, irrespective of birth or background. Or are you suggesting that Obama's popularity is some kind of "equalising" process whereby he gets more votes because of his "needs"?

'"Equality of outcome" has been the specious reasoning'

I don't disagree about the specious reasoning. But I've never heard anyone tie that concept to the Declaration of Independence. Equal before the law as you suggest, or equal before God as others propose seem to the the standard interpretations of that line.

Of more interest to me is why the Declaration of Independence talks of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" as opposed to the then more common proposition of "life, liberty and property". That would have set the US clearly apart from Marxist doctrine which said little about equality and a lot about the ownership of the means of production.
15

Wynn,

04/11/2008 09:47:36
Has NOONE read this week's Time magazine?

" 7 THINGS THAT COULD GO WRONG ON ELECTION DAY"

should put things into proper perspective.

After what happened last time I've taken not a shred of interest in the election

and this Time issue makes it look even worse.


16

Josiecamp,

San Francisco 04/11/2008 10:05:56
It is 2:00am here and we have just finished scrubbing blocks for tomorrows big telephone push to elect Barak.
Twenty-four hours from now we will still be awake and celebrating big-time. Cases of California's superb wines are stacked high and the guys will be rolling in the beer kegs...everyone is welcome.There is a new day dawning!
17

,

04/11/2008 10:40:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
18

jamurai,

04/11/2008 11:24:57
no18
1.It's supposed to be anonymous...too many Americans would be signing their own name....
2.Pass
3. Not enough polling stations obviously
19

Jaggy,

04/11/2008 11:51:03
Politically, there is little to choose between Obama and McCain. Their stated policies are largely identical which is why the campaign has focused on personality.

As a US citizen (dual UK/US actually), I thought long and hard about which way to vote. In the end, I voted for McCain (I voted early, last weekend). Not because I have anything against Obama. Rather, I find the thought of the Democrats - and especially Pelosi - controlling both the legislature and the executive to be a much worse evil than having a McCain/Palin presidency.

People in the UK really don't get the complexity of US democracy. It isn't just about the Presidency. Yes, the President is important but who controls Congress is equally so. There are a great many Americans who vote a split ticket on principle because they don't want one party controlling everything.

Equally, a great many Europeans are fixated on Iraq and Afghanistan. Not so in America. The economy was the one issue that could have separated the candidates and, in my view, McCain blew that one. The war is not a major issue.

Anyway, back to the election ..... in my town, the election which is hotly contested is not the Presidential one. We leave that to Fox, CNN et al. Rather, it is the elections to the fire board that has everyone talking. But, then, that one has a direct financial impact on us.
20

,

04/11/2008 12:10:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
21

,

04/11/2008 12:31:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
22

FS,

Stirling 04/11/2008 12:32:55
Barack Obama's Mixed-race not black - get the facts right at least Scotsman
23

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 04/11/2008 12:35:21
GO! BARRY! GO!

WHEN, I repeat WHEN, Obama is elected President of the most powerful nation on Earth he can kick McCain and his vile minions out on their ar&es and let them fester in their filthy backwaters.

2 dogs in D.C.

Will you canine companions be waiting in line with you as you patiently cast your vote for the CORRECT candidate?
24

Bemused and above it all,

04/11/2008 12:39:27
I've got a Blazzing Saddles type image in my head.
"the presidents a N(DONG!!!!!!!!!!)"
"he said the presidents near"
"No, The presidents a N(DONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)"etc,etc.

Unfortunately I really do think if Obama wins he is dead in 6months, there is no way the rednecks will settle for it.
25

,

04/11/2008 12:44:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
26

2dogs in D.C.,

04/11/2008 12:47:42
#24-Tim,sadly the boys had to wait at home, but as my polling place is so close,they could cheer me on from the window.As I said above,I got there before it opened and still had 32 people ahead of me. Killed time chatting with a well dressed black gentleman, who served in Vietnam. It was a pleasent time all told. It took me 1/2 hour from open to vote. And when I left, the line outside already extended 2/3's of the way down the block.This bodes well for our side.
27

,

04/11/2008 13:08:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
28

Wally,

By The Rivers of babylon (USA) 04/11/2008 13:11:33
yesterday there were 2 major polls released that showed obama up by 8-10 points. today there is the last zogby poll released and it has obama up by 11.4%.

I don't agree with those above who say that a group of 'rednecks' will kill obama. no offense intended, but this sort of analysis is simplistic and foolish. when assassinations occur it is done because important people in boardrooms among the ruling clique of our country decide for an assassination plot to occur and makeit happen. John Kennedy was killed because he rebelled from the people who rule us. He was making key decisions indicating he wasn't on their side, including: fired Dulles as secretary of state, started printing up money with government power thus costing the federal reserve huge profits, indicated in writing that he was leaning towards withdrawing all troops from vietnam, said that he was very unhappy elements of the US government had helped Israel get nuclear weapons, said he was going to smasht he CIA. JFK rebelled. this is why he was killed. Obama has shown no signs of rebelling at all.
29

Angel4u,

New York 04/11/2008 13:32:35
I was a Hillary girl but I have to say I am excited to see the Republicans lose their grip on America. That is if they don't steal votes again as they did in the last two elections. Obama will have his work cut out for him to fix this mess that GeorgeW and his cronies have made of our country not to mention the shambles our overseas relations have become. I was born in Scotland and I am still a Scot in my heart but don't think I will be returning anytime soon unless the taxes and property prices come down a bit...I guess Americans don't know what inflation is but it is all relevant I suppose.
Off to the Polls and you know I am not voting for McCain....arrrrrgh....
30

,

04/11/2008 13:39:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
31

SouthernGent,

04/11/2008 13:47:41
#30
"I guess Americans don't know what inflation is but it is all relevant I suppose."

Then why do you wish inflation upon us? Your party has said plain as day they will raise corporate, capital gains, and investment taxes. These will lead to inflation and job loss. Yet you vote for it anyway?
32

SouthernGent,

04/11/2008 13:54:44
#18

1. Many areas of Florida have done away with machines and "chads" and now use a pen to finish drawing an arrow. A first grader could do it, but there will be some "adults" that will screw it up.

2. They know the "system" is broken.

3. Procrastination. Many states have been voting for 2-3 weeks and all allow absentee ballots.
33

D. Feste - Illyria, OH,

04/11/2008 14:07:20
2Dogs-

Good for you . . .and for all of us . . . .for voting early. I hope that you included your two beloved friends in the process.

************************************************

As for the racist/ neocons on this board. . .
"what goes around comes around."

Your day is done.

Read posting #12 to see the pure,self-righteous evil that still exists in many Americans. What I thought lingered behind your arguments was made completely clear in your recent postings.

Virginian / SouthernGent / Mike and other female rabid old racists - your curse will be your continued
ignorance and religious snobbery. I predict that your own minds will be your worst enemies, now and for the rest of your lives. You will hold your anger forever and never understand that "freedom" means allowing OTHER people the right to believe as they wish, not
necessarily according to your distorted, dictatorial
misunderstandings.

The final lesson in all of this is that none of you really seem to believe in American freedom AT ALL, do you? Authoritarian, dictatorial rule would fit very nicely into your world-view, wouldn't it ?

True American Talaban, but with a Christian mask !




34

New Yorker,

New York City 04/11/2008 14:07:36
This morning I was voter # 129 at 8:05 am. I have never been prouder to cast my vote for Barack Obama.
His election, while not assured, is surely a seminal moment in American history. God willing, we will now end an era marked by rancor, division, stupidity, cruelty, meanness, thoughtlessness and ignorance personified by the Republican Party and its wretched leadership. Thank you Scotland for standing by us when there was so little to stand by.
35

Virginian,

USA 04/11/2008 14:09:16
#14 Selgovae

Quote: "But I've never heard anyone tie that concept [equal before the law] to the Declaration of Independence."

Answer: Selgovae, that is because you are ill-informed and badly educated like Chris Stephen.

Do some original research if you want to know the truth. Start with the Common Law of England. Studying Burke will help as will original documents such as the writings of George Washington and Patrick Henry.

I know the truth because my forefathers were involved in founding the United States.

Revisionist historians have invested much time and energy in twisting the truth into their own image.

"All men are created equal" is a statement of sheer nonsense without the rest of the idea of "before the law."

Envy and greed is the motivation of all such "leveler" schemes as is seen in Marxism and affirmative action.

Legalized robbery is the result of government taking the property of one person and giving it to another.

Communism never works but destroys a free society and economy as you well know.
36

Wally,

Psalm 137 (USA) 04/11/2008 14:10:56
southern gent in #32:

do you know what causes inflation? Growth in the money supply that is excessive over and above real growth in the economy causes inflation. The last 2 years we've had very little economic growth, I think about 1%. and yet I read estimates that the money supply in the US was increasing by 25%. In 2005 it was announced that the federal reserve would no longer calculate money supply growth each month. and so all we have is estimates. point is, under republicans we've been building an inflation bonfire.

you said that raising corporate taxes would cause unemployment. but since bush came to office corporate taxes have been cut dramatically. From 1960 to 2000 the US federal government got 10-12% of its total revenue each year from corporate income taxes. Today it is under 6%. this is due to massive effective tax cuts for big corporations whose profitability has remained very strong despite the downturn in employment. We've cut taxes for corporations and the employment situation has gotten much worse at the same time.

SouthernGent, it would be nice if you and the other republicans would try to live within the world of reality.
37

Number 6,

Germany 04/11/2008 14:14:23
I have submitted a day's vacation for tomorrow so I can stay up all night watching this unfold.

Like most of the free world I look forward to a huge Democratic victory and America being welcomed back into the World Community.
38

Quiet John,

Tinley Park 04/11/2008 14:21:48
Remember Dewey vs. Truman. This race is too close to call, and you say the biggest upset in recorded polling? You take liberties with the facts.
39

SouthernGent,

04/11/2008 14:24:27
#37
There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Inflation also occurs when corporations raise the cost of their products/services to offset expenses. And since you obviously are not aware, taxes are expenses. Expenses are offset by raising prices, and cutting jobs. I see it first hand on a daily basis, so don't lecture me with your ignorance.

Unemployment has been relatively low for much of the Bush preidency. It is now climbing due to the sub-prime debacle, which could easily be blamed on other factors other than taxes. Of course, you don't want to hear about Dodd, Clinton, Fannie, Freddie, etc.
40

2dogs in D.C.,

04/11/2008 14:29:22
#38-Number6-So did I.
41

SouthernGent,

04/11/2008 14:29:22
#34
"You will hold your anger forever and never understand that "freedom" means allowing OTHER people the right to believe as they wish, not
necessarily according to your distorted, dictatorial
misunderstandings. "

What utter hypocrisy. And you even have the audacity to highlight the word OTHER. Sounds like you might want to practice what you preach.

The irony of your post is truly amazing.
42

Virginian,

USA 04/11/2008 14:43:10
#14 Selgovae

Quote: "...why the Declaration of Independence talks of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as opposed to...life, liberty and property."

Answer:

The American English colonies were unjustly denied their rights before the law [their colonial charters]to have their colonial legislatures determine taxes.

When King George III decided that he would arbitrarily tax the colonies directly, this became "taxation without representation" by the king rather than by their colonial legislative bodies.

"The power to tax is the power to destroy." The colonists knew this firsthand, just as the defeated Confederate States of America learned during Reconstruction.

"Pursuit of happiness" cannot be maintained if a person is subjected to confiscation of "property" at the whim of a government or special interest group.

"Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness" certainly includes the ability to retain property that is the fruits of ones labors.

The Founding Fathers were maintaining their rights under the English Common law and of the Magna Carta that provided equality of all English citizens to equal protection of their various franchises before the law (courts).

The franchises (rights) of the king, the nobility, the commoners or any other class of person were in no way equal.

However, the American Founding Fathers were articulating that "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" were basic rights within the various class franchises that were to be protected equally before the law.
43

2dogs in D.C.,

04/11/2008 14:51:53
#43-Cutty Sark,Thank you. Enjoy the wine-I hope to.
44

2dogs in D.C.,

04/11/2008 14:54:45
#34-D Feste-Nope,won't put my fuzzy butted friends on the voting rolls-That would be cheating. Nyuck,nyuck..Been to your polling place yet?
45

Esther,

California 04/11/2008 14:55:23
Obama, voted two weeks ago on mail in, wanted to make sure it was counted!

Let's all hope for a better US with regards to the rest of the world. A whole lot of peace will go a long way. Bring all the troops home, and let's get on with living not dying.
46

BrockL,

SANTA MARIA 04/11/2008 15:03:14
I am hoping history is made with McCain as president and Palin as the first female vice president.

The citizens of the UK had better be hoping for the same!!!

The election of Obama would be an absolute disaster for not only the United States but its allies as well.

Be careful what you wish for.
47

2dogs in D.C.,

04/11/2008 15:10:46
Well,I see by my window the crowd has died down somewhat. Most people do have to go to work.Wonder what the lunch time will look like.
48

Sandi,

San Diego 04/11/2008 15:12:26
#3 Wally,

It is sad that Obama's grandmother has died just before the election thereby missing the knowledge of whether or not hie wins.

However, using campaign funds to fly to Hawaii was a breach of Federal campaign law and he is in the wrong. He also used camaign funds to pay for his charter plane to go to Hawaii in the summer on vacation.

The RNC paid for those clothes for Palin, not the campaign. Plus, only one third were used, the rest were returned, and they were most definitely used for campaigning.
49

Sandi,

San Diego 04/11/2008 15:15:55
#4 SouthernGent.

You are correct. Chris Stephens is frequently "truth-challenged", or just ignorant. Either way it's pitiful for someone callig himself a journalist. What is no known is that many pro-Obama votes in North Carolina were counted twice, giving the "win" to him.

We have already seen what a sleazy, lying sack of s*** Obama is, why would anyone want this to be president.
50

Virginian,

USA 04/11/2008 15:20:24
#14 Selgovae

Quote: "...life, liberty and property. That would have set the US clearly apart from Marxist doctrine which said little about equality...and a lot about the ownership of the means of production."

Answer:

The Declaration of Independence was written in 1776 by American colonists who were willing to pledge their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor in order that they and their posterity (children) could reap the benefits of civil and religious liberty.

Karl Marx sat in a London library and scribbled his radical Marxist doctrine while his wife and children were left in a slum house without food or heat.

Marx was a failure in all ways, and he was consumed by envy and greed at others who were successful.

He selfishly dreamed of bringing everyone above him down to his level by violent overthrow of the government. Marx would then be the one to dictate who would have their property confiscated and who would be given this confiscated and unearned property.

Marxism was driven by selfish avarice while the US Founding Fathers were motivated by an unselfish devotion to all people's rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

John McCain's ancestor was on George Washington's staff during the American Revolutionary War. He and his family have ever served and been faithful to the ideals of the Founding Fathers.

Barack Obama's ancestor's are Kenyan, in part, and of an unknown origins. Obama and his family stands for all that is against the Founding Father's ideas of life (for the unborn), liberty and the pursuit of happiness as seen in his socialistic/communistic redistribution schemes.

John McCain is the only possible choice for the office of president.

If McCain is not elected then there will be a rising up of the protectors of the Constitution that will astound the world just as happened in 1776.

You can count on it!

51

2dogs in D.C.,

04/11/2008 15:23:12
#52-Cutty Sark-No need.This is a "Yellow Dog" Democratic town. I will tell you,however,that the one guy sitting among the McCain posters seems awfully lonely. Maybe I'll take him some coffee.
52

Sandi,

San Diego 04/11/2008 15:29:08
#18 Vincent,

Fair questions. What you need to know is that here in the US, we do not vote for just one thing today. So to answere your questions as well as I can:

1.Every voter in the US is sent a sample ballot in the mail seral weeks before election day. The purpose of this is towfole, to let you see how the actual ballot will be organised and to let you mark your choices on the sample ballot prior to going to the polls. You take the sample ballot with you and simply copy what you have already decided on to the actual ballot. My ballot for this electon contains 25 items on which I can cast a vote. From president, to State assemblymembers, to city issues to the famous California Propositions. At my polling place, we punch holes in a card for each vote. There is an option of using a computer screen and in California this has to have a paper trail.

2. No idea, sorry.

3.The long queues at some, not all, polling places are because of two things, voters going to the polls unprepared, without the sample ballot, thereby taking longer to actually vote. And also in some areas they just don't put enough voting equipment in some precincts.
53

Sandi,

San Diego 04/11/2008 15:34:54
#51, Cutty Sark,

McCain is not the same as Bush, although Obama wants you to think that.

I hope you are not believing that an Obama presidency will end the war in Iraq any more quickly than a McCain presidency? Obama's stance on Iraq has slowly moved to almost the same as McCain's. We never should have gone into Iraq, but we can't now just walk out. It isn't that simple. Obama has never had any intention of bringing all US troops out of Iraq, only the combat troops. That leaves about 55,000 in Iraq or close by.

McCain would be much more careful about involving US troops in anything because he knows and understands the cost-not just in dollars- of doing so. Obama has no clue.
54

Virginian,

USA 04/11/2008 15:37:05
Well, it's time to go vote for John McCain.

All of you Obama PC warriors can now type away to fill the board with your radical drivel.

Just remember that it was the Founding Fathers and Americans during the American Revolutionary War that fought and died to give you this right of Freedom of Speech.

Only a fool would work as diligently as you leftist radicals to deprive not only yourselves but all other Americans of these prized liberties that the rest of the world so envies.

President John Sidney McCain III, Commander-in-Chief of the United States of America ("Hail to the Chief" played when the President comes into view!)

Keep the faith!
55

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 04/11/2008 15:37:55
2dogs, Just got back from voting... took all of 15 min. tops.. sorry, but I think we cancelled each other out!! Thank goodness.. no lines at all.
56

The Strategist,

04/11/2008 15:41:11
If these two are the best the USA has to offer up as potential leaders of the Western world then I think we should all be very worried.

I find neither of them particularly inspiring nor indeed - in terms of their policies - particularly convincing.

57

billengland,

04/11/2008 15:45:37
54 Virginian

"If McCain is not elected then there will be a rising up of the protectors of the Constitution that will astound the world just as happened in 1776."

If McCain is elected then there will be a rising up.

You can count on it!
58

okanaganguy,

kelowna,b.c. canada 04/11/2008 15:47:36
#53 sandi. Where did you get that information.I was under the impression that the votes [even from the advanced polls] aren't counted until the polls close tonight.Or are you talking about the primaries, in which case Obama won by a landslide throughout the U.S. regards
59

Wally,

Psalm 137 (USA) 04/11/2008 15:54:25
my voting experience was very easy and didn't take long at all, I waited for 30 seconds while they helped 1 person in front of me and went right in to vote after they identified me. Its always that way where I live. My theory is that in republican areas its like that. In some democrat areas people wait in line for hours to vote.

The poll workers were helpful and positive. I have confidence in them. Many people seemed very happy to go and vote. I tell you that this is our day of victory. We can feel good when it is over. But it is a delusion that we celebrate.

If only it were true that 'we the people' really rule, then we'd have a reason to celebrate. Here is a link telling interesting info about potential vote fraud.

http://the-peoples-forum.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=6493

those nice poll workers are known to be reliable counters of votes. The vote machines that have replaced them in many places are known to be potentially dishonest, sources of fraud.

Meanwhile, the reality of our situation advances. The Daily Times in Pakistan reports that the American think-tank Rand Corporation is advocating war with either china, russia, japan or iran in order to get the economy moving. We remember Joe Biden's cryptic comment that something big would happen in the 1'st 6 months of Obama's presidency.

http://the-peoples-forum.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=6466

Peggy Noonan, conservative puppet of those who rule, tells us the democrats will win big.

http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/WhiteHouse08/37977

and here's a story about McCain's last campaign rally last night in Prescott, Arizona.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/election/mccain/articles/2008/11/04/20081104mccainrally-ON.html

60

okanaganguy,

kelowna, b.c. canada 04/11/2008 16:01:06
#47. Esther. I think that you are mistaken. I saw Obama voting this morning in Chicago, regards
61

2dogs in D.C.,

04/11/2008 16:02:25
Hi.Lynne-You voted, and that's the important thing. 15 minutes,lucky you. However, I just had a call from my brother in Titusville,he wanted to know if i had voted yet (as if..) Sorry, Lynne, you and I cancelled each other, but my brother puts one up. Oh, I did take the McCain guy some fresh brewed coffee.What the hell,it was fun. Also, I wish to go on record here and now-If my guy wins, I absolutely refuse to "gloat" or otherwise crow.
62

2dogs in D.C.,

04/11/2008 16:09:03
Oh,to my above at#67-That's not to say I won't READ others gloating w/a small measure of enjoyment;)
63

Selgovae,

04/11/2008 16:12:37
#36 Virginian

'Quote: "But I've never heard anyone tie that concept [equal before the law] to the Declaration of Independence."'

Do you deliberately misinterpret, or do you just have trouble reading? The concept I was referring to was not "equal before the law", but "equality of outcome".


"I know the truth because my forefathers were involved in founding the United States."

All of them? That level of inbreeding might explain your irrational ramblings.
64

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 04/11/2008 16:19:24
2 dogs.. I promise the same!! We should all be "civil", and hope the country can get back to it's former self, no matter who wins.
65

Sandi,

San Diego 04/11/2008 16:22:18
#63 okanaganguy,

I was referring to the primary. Obama did NOT win the primaries throughout the US by a landslide. He won fewer primaries than Clinton, and only won as many delegates as he did because of fraud, bullying and intimidation at caucuses. He ended up with only a handful more pledged delegates that Clinton and Hillary Clinton received more popular votes. The majority of Demcorats voted against Obama, for Clinton. The ONLY reason Obama is in the position he is today is cheating by him and by the Democratic National Committee. We really do not know which of them actually "won" and we never will. The DNC wanted Obama and they made sure they got what they wanted.

#58 Cutty Sark,

I wish they'd all talk less about "winning" and more about "succeeding". We are succeeding in Iraq, thanks to the surge-which I thought was a bad idea! But Obama did too, and refuses to acknowledge that it has, in fact, worked.

"Are you seriously suggesting that you have to have fought in a war to understand the true costs (life) of war"

I did not intend to imply that, but would you not agree that someone with McCain's particular background probably has a greater understanding of many things attached to war then those of us who have never served in uniform or been POWs? Similarly, you could say that Obama has a better understanding of what it means to be black in the US. Neither means that others without that experience are unable to serve as president, but how fair is it to say that those life experiences are worthless? IMO, Obama's name would not be on ballots today if his skin was white. No white man with the thin resume Obama has would have been considered to be a serious candidate for the presidency.

Obama has been inconsistent at best about his view on Iraq, Pakistan, and other foreign policy matters which are of importance to both the US and the rest of the world. He has copied the policy positions of both Hillary Clinton and to a lesser extent, McCain. What h
66

2dogs in D.C.,

04/11/2008 16:23:04
Well said Lynne.Above all the petty squabbles we should be U.S.citizens first.
67

Sandi,

San Diego 04/11/2008 16:23:16
Oops, here's the last sentence:

What he'd do as president, when the proverbial "buck stops with him" is a scary thought.
68

Sandi,

San Diego 04/11/2008 16:29:10
#73 Cutty Sark

Sarah Palin is a very intelligent woman. She doesn't have to tell anyone who she voted for. She appeals to a huge number of people here because of the "homely" stuff. She is "just like them", but much smarter. Don't be deceived by all the nastiness put out by the Obama campaign. If they had truly believed her to be a lightweight, they would never have mentioned her name. They know she is intelligent, has accomplished quite a lot in a short period of time,and does have more relevant experience than Obama.

I'm far more concerned about Obama, with all his bad connections, and his complete lack of accomplishments being the actual president.
69

Wally,

Psalm 137 (USA) 04/11/2008 16:30:56
http://www.zogby.com/50state/

here's a link to Zogby's electoral map. Zogby said that it is clear that the Americans prefer change and that Obama is the change they want. But he also said that anything can happen on election day. Zogby is one who said in 2004 that his exit polls were accurate and in the 5 states where the official results varied strongly from th exit polls, zogby implied this was due to fraud. When Zogby says anything can happen on election day, he is referring to vote fraud. but in 2004 the election was close and under that condition vote fraud can be hidden more easily. this one is not close at all and so it would be harder to sell vote fraud to the people.

here is some info on the vote fraud issue.

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=6616

The biggest manufacturer of vote machines is Diebold. A Diebold software engineer said in an internal memo that the software scheme is made to purposely allow vote fraud. programs can be loaded onto the vote machines to facilitate vote fraud, and the system is purposely designed so that this cannot be detected by anyone. The system could be designed & built so as to be good, but it is purposely done so as to not be safe. Diebold sued in court to stop the memo from their own employee from being circulated. They admitted in court that it was from one of their own employees. Many software experts have looked at ths systems they've built and concluded exactly what I'm telling you.
70

Yeah1,

04/11/2008 16:34:07
Sandi:

"What is no known is that many pro-Obama votes in North Carolina were counted twice, giving the "win" to him."

"The ONLY reason Obama is in the position he is today is cheating by him and by the Democratic National Committee."

You seem to know for certain that Obama 'cheated' in North Carolina and 'cheated' to become the democrats' nominee, so I assume you have evidence to support this?

Perhaps you could provide us with this 'evidence', or better yet take it to the authorities?

I assume you do have evidence and are not just making up wild accusations against the soon-to-be president?
71

Yeah1,

04/11/2008 16:35:34
#76

"Sarah Palin is a very intelligent woman."

So smart she gets prank-called by someone pretending to be the French president and falls for it.

As proved by the prank call she doesn't even know the name of the Canadian prime minister for god's sake.
72

Yeah1,

04/11/2008 16:37:37
#72

"No white man with the thin resume Obama has would have been considered to be a serious candidate for the presidency."

I doubt any man with the even thinner resume that Sarah Palin has would have been considered to be a serious candiate for the vice-presidency either.
73

Wally,

psalm 137 (USA) 04/11/2008 16:39:10
one software engineer testified under oath at a public hearing that he had personally been hired by a prominent republican in the state (close to Governor Jeb Bush) to write a software program to cause an artificial result on a voting machine for the purpose of vote fraud. This news was carried on 2 local news stations in Florida. A Florida state prosecutor opened an investigation based on that report. Within 1 week he was suicided.

There was a college professor who made it his specialty to know everythng about voting machines, how to design & build them so that they are safe, etc. He was travelling the country giving speeches on the subject. He was prolific in this work. He died in a car crash.

There were the 2 brothers who started the VoteScam organization that monitored elections for 20 years and found many instances of vote fraud occurring. They both died of cancer at age 58. their work is now continued by BlackBoxVoting.org

http://blackboxvoting.org/

We will feel like today is a great victory. but the people who rule us can advance their agenda with democrats in power. We are un-done. but today we revel happily in our delusion otherwise.
74

Jaggy,

04/11/2008 16:51:13
All this talk of Republican corruption should consider the Democrats track record whether it be Tammanay Hall or Dailly's Chicago.
75

Sandi,

San Diego 04/11/2008 16:55:20
#78,

Hundreds of law suits have been filed in Texas and other states which held caucuses because of the fraud that was committed by the Obama campaign. It isn't a matter of conjecture, it is fact. The guy cheated and bullied his way to the nomination. That is the Chicago way.

http://www.lynettelong.com/CAUCUSFRAUD/

Wally, the Republicans cheated in previous elections. That does NOT make it OK for the Democrats to cheat now.
76

Yeah1,

04/11/2008 17:03:34
#86

"Hundreds of law suits have been filed in Texas and other states which held caucuses because of the fraud that was committed by the Obama campaign. It isn't a matter of conjecture, it is fact."

So provide us with these so-called facts then? Provide links to official sources that prove this fraud took place, not links to a random and clearly biased blog.
77

P·K ,

04/11/2008 17:15:16
#34

What religious snobbery and Christian mask??? US is no more a Christian country. Many “Christians” there do not practice the Christian values, tolerance and what have been taught. Many more do not attend Church. I met some Americans who told me God does not exist.

The Muslims in Arab countries, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Iran et al are truly Muslim who toe Islamic laws. They make use of Qur’anic verses to enact laws to govern all aspects of human behaviour and in politics. They also adopt a legal system based on a strict interpretation of Sharia or Islamic laws.

On the other hand, the American lawmakers do not make use of biblical verses to mix up with politics neither any so called Christian laws. So, I fail to see any connection with US and your Christian mask remark!

You sound very desperate! If freedom is what concerns you most, then don’t curse others but give them the choice to choose of their own free will. Do not force them to accept your views otherwise you’re a hypocrite too.
78

2dogs in D.C.,

04/11/2008 17:23:50
#88-P-K, I think maybe you've got the wrong guy? D Feste is a sort of live and let live poster.
79

P·K ,

04/11/2008 17:27:55
#89

Open your eyes bigger, read his post at #34 and use your brain to think!
80

Itchy,

04/11/2008 17:33:49
#37 "We've cut taxes for corporations and the employment situation has gotten much worse at the same time"

Low taxes lead to higher unemployment?

This is dishonest ignorance from you. You deserve all you get.
81

Sandi,

San Diego 04/11/2008 17:34:54
387,

It's an extremely well-researched blog. The major media, all in the tank for Obama, has failed the voters of the USA by not following up on these instances of fraud. Here are some videos, all about Texas caucus fraud:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGZFgMNM-UU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXNqFQmGxDU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4XFvq5XMk8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnclKiHwatw&feature=related
82

SouthernGent,

04/11/2008 17:37:33
#89
Unlike yourself, D Feste/Kelvino has had a hidden agenda since day one. If you go over his posts for many months and really read them, he continually interjects race and bigotry into discussions that have none until he enters. He baits the boards.

You seem to lay it on the line as you see it, right or wrong.

His post at 34 suggests others should have tolerance, yet he has none.
83

P·K ,

04/11/2008 17:42:21
#93

Well said. He does not practise what he preaches!
84

Itchy,

04/11/2008 17:43:41
"Mr Obama seems to be stumbling to an updated version of Franklin D. Roosevelt's New Deal, in which the state intervenes to get the wheels of commerce turning .
"

The writer needs to get his facts right. Roosevelt continued on with ideas begun by Hoover and his interventionism kept America in depression for a decade and all of it was quite unnecessary.

"With the Wall Street collapse, the notion of an economy guided by the "invisible" hand of market forces is as dead as Communism became with the fall of the Berlin Wall.

Americans have not lost their faith in capitalism – their worship of the ideals of freedom and liberty take care of that – but they are now aware that, left to their own devices, bankers will drive themselves off a cliff, taking the rest of the economy with them."

More utter lies. The credit crunch is the inevitable result of an unjustified credit expansion by the central bank.
85

okanaganguy,

kelowna,b.c. canada 04/11/2008 17:56:57
#72. Sandi. If you believe that Obama and the DNC conspired and cheated Hillary out of the nomination then it will be interesting tomorrow to read your explanation on how they conspired to successfully win the presidency, regards
86

weh,

04/11/2008 18:11:47
I dont give a stuff about what is happening across the pond!
However, come Friday morn, and I awake to the sound of "the SNP have..............

I will THANK GOD FOR DELIVERANCE from the utmost evil which presently stalks our fair land!
87

,

04/11/2008 18:22:02
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
88

Wally,

by the rivers of babylon (USA) 04/11/2008 18:42:43
itchy in 91:

I say to you the same thing I said to SouthernGent. I ask you to live within the world of reality. It is true as I said in 37 that the corporate income tax was manipulated to result in a dramatic lowering of taxation on large corporations since 2000. It has not been a small tax cut, but a huge tax cut for them as I outlined in #37. Yet at the same time the employment situation for ordinary americans worsened greatly. Therefore, the assertion that if we go back to the laws we had prior to 2001 will cause unemployment just doesn't wash with reality.

The US government has allowed countries around the world to export to the US without any hinderance. and at the same time it has engaged in policies to support the US dollar artificially even while expanding the money supply rapidly. With an artificially expensive currency the US is unable to maintain a thriving domestic economy in this trade environment. This is why there are problems with employment & jobs.

Consider the idea that high taxes cost jobs. Each week the main tax that most american workers pay is the payroll tax, not the personal income tax. The payroll tax applies only to workers who get a paycheck and applies only to income up to $80,000 a year. It is a tax specifically on the poor & middle class, the rich are excluded from that tax. You'll recall that Republicans raised that payroll tax in 1983 I believe from about 12% to just under 16% when you include both employee & employer contributions to the payroll tax. And today 40% of this money taken by the payroll tax is not contributed to social security/medicare, but instead spent on general funding which means they spend it on the wars. So republicans have greatly increased the taxation on ordinary workers and then they've diverted the money away from social security.

If you really believe that lower levels of taxation on labor will help the jobs situation, then you should want the payroll tax money to be protected and
89

Wally,

psalm 137 (USA) 04/11/2008 18:44:09
a direct tax on labor will hurt jobs. and republicans favor very heavy direct taxes on labor. Remember, in 2005 Republicans changed the income tax laws so that personal income gained through investment would only be taxed at 15%. meanwhile the payroll tax that the poorest of the people pay is 15.8% counting employer contribution. If we have a shortage of jobs, then taxes on labor should be lowered.
90

Miss America,

San Francisco area 04/11/2008 18:47:25
For months the international media has touted this election as a means to "heal" racial injustices of the past of this country, sadly, as this campaign has evolved, I have come to the conclusion that the contrary is true, and this election has and will do serious damage to race relations for the people of the United States for years to come.
91

Jaggy,

04/11/2008 18:53:22
#101 ... the international media have a fixation on race in the USA that was forged in the 1960s and has not really evolved since. They really have no idea what they are talking about.
92

Wally,

psalm 137 (USA) 04/11/2008 18:55:37
there's some confusion here. Some people above think that republicans are a party for low taxes. This is not true. there is no historical evidence of this. As I wrote in 99-100 - republicans were behind the increase in the payroll tax in 1983. that is the main tax that american workers pay. and republicans put the provision in that law allowing the government to divert the payroll tax money from social security and spend it on other things. Today they spend 40% of all money raised by the payroll tax on things other than social security. It was the administration of Republican george bush who sponsored a commission on social security and said that the social security payments to elderly would have to be cut by 40%. and they never even considered using all 100% of the social security money collected to fund social security. They only use 60% and then divert the rest, then they say we don't have enough money for the elderly. Republicans took a tax that funded a pension program, raised the tax because they said there wasn't enough money to fund the elderly, then they diverted 40% of the money, then they said they didn't have enough money and need to cut funding to the elderly. They are the ones who have the track record of taxing the people into the ground.

In the 2001-present period the level of spending by the federal government has increased like at almost no other time in history. You have to go to 1966-1968 period to find similar annual increases in the federal budget as what has occurred under bush. It has been very rare in US history when government spending has increased so rapidly.

Don't think about the level of taxation, think about the level of spending by the government. Under bush the government routinely borrows $400 billion a year to finance this huge growth in spending. That was not normal prior to Bush. The last 2 years of CLinton admin they didn't even borrow any money, they were in surplus actually. All that borrowing creates a
93

Wally,

psalm 137 (USA) 04/11/2008 18:57:07
All that borrowing creates a need for future taxation.

Anyone who thinks the republicans are a party of low-taxes is a fool. they believe in low taxes for rich people, but huge impossible burdens for everyone else. If you think the words 'huge impossible' are an exaggeration, then please you haven't considered the recent very heavy spending by the Treasury Department on republican bailouts of rich corpoarations. That will cause annual deficit spending of over $1 trillion and perhaps even $2 trillion. we as a people can't pay that debt, yet a republican president has saddled us with it.
94

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 04/11/2008 19:04:13
Right now there is a lawsuit going in New Hampshire to play by the rules... they are blocking the Republican election people from making sure the voter registration is on the level. They have every right to be there... they are now kept more than 40 feet away.
Rules are rules..
95

qohldr,

04/11/2008 19:06:36
All I have been able to make out from this campaign (firstly Obama/Clinton and now Obama/McCain) is that if Americans or should I say white Americans don't vote Obama then they are racists.
When I hear or read statements like "Is America about to make history or will white voters when they enter the booth decide they do not want a black President" and others insinuating the same, I just think that white Americans are being blackmailed into voting for Obama on the colour of his skin and not his policies.
96

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 04/11/2008 19:12:37
Wally, You are the one confused. The taxes being proposed by Obama are on homes more than 2400 sq. feet, new gasoline taxes,new taxes on natural resources consumption (heating, gas, water, electricity). New taxes on retirement accounts, and new taxes to pay for socialized medicine.
He doesn't favor offshore drilling, he will appoint judges will make laws, instead of interpreting them, he served 173 days in the Senate, supports abortion throughout pregnancy, has said he will pull troops out of Iraq immediately, does not support gun ownership, his proposed programs will mean huge tax increase, he voted against making English the official language, and has voted to give Social Security to illegals.
97

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 04/11/2008 19:19:54
continued..
Right now there is 0% on home sales capital gains tax up to $500,000 per home (couples). Obama wants to change that to 28% from ALL home sales.. That means if you sell your home and make a profit, you will pay 28% of your gain on taxes. Now if you are headed for retirement, and would like to downsize your home or move into a retirement community, 28% of the money you make from your home will go to taxes. There are a lot of elderly people who are counting on the income from their homes as part of their retirement (income).

On the Dividend tax.. it is now 15%.. Obama wants to change it to 39.6%.. which means if you have money in the stock market, IRA, mutual funds, college funds, life insurance, retirement accounts, or anything that pays ore reinvest dividends, you will now be paying nearly 40% of the money earned on taxes. Experts have said that 'Higher tax rates on capital gains would crash the stock market, and do nothing to cut the deficit"
98

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 04/11/2008 19:26:32
#106.. the only one who brought race into this election is Obama and the Democrats.
THEY want you to feel that way... but this is America, and because our founding fathers fought for the right to have us vote our conscience..we can. It has not to do with race for most of us.. it has to do with logic, and who we want.
The race question is over. It is over. By tomorrow we hould know who has won.
99

Selgovae,

04/11/2008 19:37:29
#108 Lynne

"Obama wants to change that to 28% from ALL home sales."

Do you know an official source for that? After Googling, all I can find is that it comes from some e-mail doing the rounds.
100

Media 1,

cape town 04/11/2008 19:40:38
Obama has proved beyond doubt that he is the best man for the job - In addition to that, Obama has also proved what many have long suspected, America is not a racist nation. Racism is of no significance, Obama and Condoleza Rice in particular have proved that black people have no barriers in front of them other than themselves, nobody stands in your way, you just need to make it happen.
Black Africans all over the world need to realise this.

I am thrilled that Obama is about to win - A McCain win would have meant world war and carnage - lets see where Osama Bin Laden is now eh?
Bet you he shows up dead soon, the Neo Cons or the Bush clan cannot keep him safe anymore - and if he speaks when he is caught he brings them all down for 9/11 ! Osama Bin Laden will be dead within 8 weeks. If not, he has seen the danger and gone low.
101

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 04/11/2008 19:53:29
I also forgot to mention the Inheritance Tax.. Right now there is none. Obama wants to retore the tax. Many families have lost businesses, farms, ranches, and homes that have been their families for generations, because they could not afford the inheritance tax. Those willing their assets to loved ones (or hated ones)!! will only lose them to these taxes.
102

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 04/11/2008 19:59:14
Selgovae..
All you had to do was listen to his proposals. He has told everyone what he wants to do, including putting nearly 80,000 workers out of jobs in the coal industry. while he bankrupts the companies.
103

mike - across the pond,

media... 04/11/2008 20:09:55
"Obama has proved beyond doubt..."...

proved what? HOW?

BO hasnt proven ANYTHING other than he can vote "present"...

BO hanst proven ANYTHING other than he can read a teleprompter....

BO hanst proven ANYTHING other than he can sell a bunch of lies... "tax cuts for 95%..." BULL...

BO hasnt proven ANYTHING other than he can play "the race card"... please point out WHO repeatedly brought race to this campaign..

IF he wins... please remember what this guy says... and in 4 years you will hear the screaming when we hold his feet to the fire...
104

Laurette,

Carlsbad, California 04/11/2008 20:12:08
This is happening to people trying to vote in what is supposed to be the most advanced Country in the world.
As of 8:00 p.m.
, Election Protection is receiving breaking news reports of more than 700 voters in Brush Creek Community Center (3801 Cleaver Blvd.) in Kansas City, Missouri that waited more than eight hours to cast their ballots.
According to multiple affidavits signed by witnesses available for comment to media, hundreds of voters were given misinformation and told to return at a time after the polls close.
Election Protection is investigating that after delays of up to eight hours – among the longest in the nation – resulting in hundreds of voters being denied their legal right to cast their ballot.
In addition, Election Protection in investigating several reports that elderly and disabled voters had their registration papers torn up in front of them after voters stated that they could not wait in the prohibitive lines.
Election Protection is closely monitoring voter requests for assistance and reports of problems at the polls through its hotline (866-OUR-VOTE), web site (www.866OurVote.org) and tens of thousands of volunteers across the country. Already hundreds of requests for assistance have been received from Missouri voters, many of which have been concerns over these and other serious problems.
Election Protection legal volunteers are working with voters and election officials to resolve these questions quickly to ensure that no eligible voter leaves their polling location without effectively casting a ballot. Some of these incidents have been addressed over the phone, while Election Protection has mobilize on-the-ground field volunteers to resolve more serious concerns.

105

SouthernGent,

04/11/2008 20:16:01
#114
Its a shame that Uncle Obama and Aunt Nancy will force families to sell the family farm in order to get their slice of the pie.

My question again - why bother working hard, when one will get the same from hardly working?
106

SouthernGent,

04/11/2008 20:19:37
116
You forgot to mention the "Black Panther" that was escorted away from a polling site in Philly for threatening and intimidating anybody not planning to vote for Obama. He was carrying a nite stick and blocking the door until voters called the police.

107

T55Bird,

Iowa 04/11/2008 20:19:40
I am terribly amused by the "haters" yelling about fraudulent voting. Fraudulent voting has saddled us for 8 years with the biggest idiot to ever serve in the Oval Office. What Obama is doing is setting up networks to try to stop the cheating that has gone on in the last two elections. It is time to restore our democracy, in which each vote counts. You would think that a President who has preached democracy to the world would support it working in his own country, but that wouldn't have been to his advantage.
108

SouthernGent,

04/11/2008 20:22:50
119
I guess it was fraudulent voting for the past 8 years because your candidate lost?

Funny how that works.
109

Richardinho,

04/11/2008 20:27:30
I'm all for low taxes, but I'm sick of this guff we get from 'conservatives' year in year out, of lower taxes for the rich and everyone else can f**k off; This is nothing but socialism for the well off.
110

Selgovae,

04/11/2008 20:30:47
#113 Lynne

I asked about a tax on home sales and you answer with something about the coal industry. Is there a connection other than your dislike of Obama?
111

SouthernGent,

04/11/2008 20:32:09
121
I don't have a problem paying into the pot for the future, but what about the segment of society that plans on living off the pot and never contributing?

Social programs have a tendency to increase that element you call "human nature".

It can also be called enabling or dependancy. Neither concept appealling.

Would it not make more sense to empower them with education vs just giving it to them?
112

Wally,

Psalm 137 (USA) 04/11/2008 20:32:46
Lynne, thanks for that great info on Obama's tax plans. Like the other fellow said above, it would be nice if you had a link for that info.

I see both republicans and democrats as working together to subjugate the americans, to tax them to death, to destroy them. Above, I was highlighting the republicans' track record which is to tax tax tax spend spend spend borrow borrow borrow and it has been very harmful to us.

Recently, 2 or more bailout bills were passed in congress. These bills were first proposed by the bush administration. But it is also true that democrats in congress supported them strongly, more strongly than republicans did. there has been massive spending either done or committed recently to bail out very rich companies & banks. and this is all financed with borrowed money. Like I said above when the year is over we will see that the deficit spending now per year is between $1 & $2 trillion.

I expect that Lynne is right that there will be huge tax increases under Obama. I disagree with that course. Instead, the people they borrowed the money from should just be told that we won't honor that debt. The federal reserve should be eliminated. The US government itself should produce new US dollars in order to manage the money supply.

Many people are not aware that today the Federal Reserve and its member banks create new US dollars. They make huge massive profits on this and they increase the money supply too rapidly. The US government would be more responsible in managing the money supply because it has no profit incentive to increase the money supply too rapidly. and the money made through this process could be used to reduce taxes dramatically. Currently, the Federal Reserve bank itself realizes about $1 trillion in cash each year that is almost all pure profit. If government performed the same service, then it might make that much from just this source. This would facilitate about a 40% cut in taxes for everyone.

Ron P
113

mike - across the pond,

media... Obama and Osama 04/11/2008 20:32:54
please take a close LOOK at Barak Hussein Obama

MUSLIM first name....

MUSLIM middle name....

MUSLIM last name....

MUSLIM herritage... 7 of his fathers 8 great-grandparents were ARAB-MUSLIMS

so I am trying to figure out... WHERE you get the idea that an ARAB AMERICAN is going to bolster the spirit of AFRICANS around the world???

WHERE you get the idea that BO has some inside track into chasing down OBL?

its all great rhetoric and all.... but WHERE do you get these ideas from?
114

Wally,

psalm 137 (USA) 04/11/2008 20:33:30
Ron Paul, Ralph Nader Cynthia McKinney all advocate what I said. Republicans & democrats both favor using the federal reserve instead. This has become a path of national suicide.
115

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 04/11/2008 20:37:32
I get my information from the Democratic party which sends me their info in the snail mail and on line. and from the GOP which also sends me snail mail and on line. Sorry, I thought I answered you... evidentally I didn't.
I don't have the links in front of me right now, as I go back and forth from work. I will look for it tonight.
116

Richardinho,

04/11/2008 20:39:36
#126 I take it you're aware that many Muslims live in Africa?
117

Wally,

by the rivers of babylon (USA) 04/11/2008 20:41:57
SouthernGent in 124:

your post seems surrealistic to me. you're worried about people living off of the government. Since 2001 government has been a big growth industry, especially when you count all the contractors that government hires. Total employment including contractors funded by the federal government has increased dramatically under republican leadership, at a much more rapid pace than normal.

Under republicans people that pay into the social security fund have 40% of that money taken from them and spent on the wars that republicans started.

the big recipients of government money under republicans are rich people. this was true even before the recent spate of bailouts. Republicans hire lots of contractors under no-bid conditions that are basically just funnelling the taxpayer's money to favored people. And under the bailout, literally trillions of dollars are given to rich people. government spending especially under republicans is about transferring money from the taxpayers to rich people, its not about poor people whom you are worried about.

today we celebrate victory over the hated republicans. but tomorrow the real problems and the fact that the democrats are virtually the same as republicans will come hit us in the face. we will not like it.
118

Virginian,

USA 04/11/2008 20:44:27
#62 billengland

"If McCain is elected then there will be a rising up."

Answer:

Yes, billengland, we all know that Obama's radical supporters have promised if Obama loses that they will go by the millions to the White House and close it up.

This would be a sorry replay of the old hippie radicals with their buddies in the Black Panthers who would riot, burn, loot and bomb from the safety of their holes throughout the 1960's.

The difference is that pro-Americans, as opposed to anti-Americans, effect change by legal, nonviolent means as provided by the US Constitution.

Pro-Americans have become complacent since the end of the Cold War and the demise of the USSR.

All of this complacency has disappeared with the resurgence of the radical, hate-America faction.

The Internet and video camera have changed everything.

Look at the video on Foxnews.com of the two Black Panthers standing outside the polling station in Philadelphia trying to intimidate voters.

A college student videotaped them with his cell phone to show what thugs Obama has supporting him.

When Foxnews videotaped Bill Ayers outside his home and asked if he was sorry for all of his bombings, Ayers called the police to protect him from being questioned by the reporter. Ironic that Ayers had to call the police when it was he who had bombed a police station.

What was even more pathetic is that Bill Ayers, distinquished professor of education, still wears pierced earrings like he was still a cool, doped-up hippie.

Plus, Obama says he will bring the troops home from Iraq. He could be sorry to have them back on US soil considering that our military is solidly behind McCain, a career military hero.

It's people like Obama and Biden who feel that going off to war to defend the US is "below their paygrade."

Obama would do well to consider the cost before he allows his supporters to run amuck as they are prone to do.
119

mike - across the pond,

laurette.... the LIAR!!! 04/11/2008 20:46:28
"as of 8pm" in missouri... LAURETTE how can it be 8pm on election day in missouri... when RIGHT THIS VERY MOMENT its only 2:40PM on election day in Missouri? this would be a LIE... now wouldnt it?

so people were having their registration papers torn up? HOW CAN THAT HAPPEN... they had to register A MONTH AGO to cast a ballot in this election!!!!

so people were waiting in line for 8 HOURS.... HOW CAN THAT BE... when the polls have only been open for 7 1/2 hours...

so people were being denied the opportunity to wait in line to cast their ballot... so you think that YOU are more important than anybody else, and YOU should get to cut in line... because YOU dont have time to wait??? BOOOO HOOOOO!!! its called EQUAL PROTECTION.... I get to wait.... YOU get to wait...

guess you got your histrionics on a little prematurely.... didnt you there Laurette... Laurette the LIAR....
120

Richardinho,

04/11/2008 20:54:21
It's people like Obama and Biden who feel that going off to war to defend the US is "below their paygrade."

George Bush too. And the fact that the last Democratic Presidential candidate was a war hero didn't stop you Repugnants attacking him, so can the hypocrisy.
121

Selgovae,

Scottish Borders 04/11/2008 20:59:48
#131 Cutty Sark

Thanks.

I don't see any mention of a 28% tax on home sales. But they sure have a complicated tax system in the States. Looks like a haven for tax lawyers.

This one on the Obama list caught my eye:

"Create an international tax haven watch list of countries who do not share information with the U.S. and require greater financial disclosure to decrease tax shelters"

How do they define "require"?
122

mike - across the pond,

Wally 04/11/2008 21:01:45
you are correct if BO and the DNC win today.... it WILL be a "cold slap in the face" to a significant number of those who fervently supported them

the "Change" they promised is a sirens song... and like the sailors of mythology who listened to the sirens song, those who "drank the kool-aid" without thinking about what that "change" really means... will have traded the frying pan for the fire...

Like you, I dont LIKE what the GOP has been peddalling for the last 8 years... but what the DNC is peddalling is UTTER DISASTER...

I encourage you to THINK about it...
if we believe the polls our fellow citizens are about to give the leaders of the legislature majorities not seen in 30 years, unfortunately Nancy Pelosi is NO Tip O'Neil... and while Robert Byrd certainly had his flaws... he beats Harry Reid... ANY DAY OF THE WEEK

again Wally, I challenge you to THINK about where we are going... what we are doing... and who we are voting for
123

T55Bird,

Iowa 04/11/2008 21:04:23
120

2000 should have appalled everyone, not just people on my side of the aisle.

One person, one vote. The majority rules. Presidents should be elected, not selected.

You think there was no cheating because your candidate won. Funny how that works.
124

SouthernGent,

04/11/2008 21:06:12
136

"But they sure have a complicated tax system in the States"

Sux, doesn't it?

Yet when we the people tell our representatives that we favor a fair or flat tax, we are ignored. That is why Washington needs to be cleaned out and start over.
125

mike - across the pond,

richardinho.... 04/11/2008 21:11:32
the last DNC "war hero"...

that would be... JFK??? (just kidding)

certainly you would not be talking about John Kerry...
John Kerry who attacked his own fellow troops in front of congress... you dont like the policies... GO AFTER THE POLITICIANS... but dont attack your fellow troops... THAT is cowaridce

the "honorable" John Kerry who threw his "medals" away... only to find out that he really didnt do that... THAT is cowardice

John Kerry who one of his 'purple hearts' was so insignificant that he was ordered to put a bandaid on it and get back to work...

THAT John Kerry?

the people of Massachutesetts like John Kerry.. so be it... need I remind you they like the SCHIESTER Bawney Fwank too?
126

Richardinho,

04/11/2008 21:12:28
'Yet when we the people tell our representatives that we favor a fair or flat tax, we are ignored. That is why Washington needs to be cleaned out and start over.'

No, you just have to vote for it. Didn't Huckabee support a 'fair tax'? and he couldn't even win the republican nomination.
127

Richardinho,

04/11/2008 21:19:31
#140 A soldier can't pick the wars he fights in. If he does his duty, then he is a war hero in my view.

If he disagrees with what his government is asking him to do, that doesn't stop him being a war hero.
If he is disgusted by the actions of his fellow soldiers that doesn't stop him being a war hero.
if he has an opinion and isn't afraid to voice it, that doesn't stop him being a war hero.
if he throws his medals away, that doesn't stop him being a war hero.
It is a testament to the ingrained hypocrisy of the repubicans that they attacked Kerry, yet elected George Bush the deserter, and Dick Cheney the draft dodger.
128

SouthernGent,

04/11/2008 21:25:40
130 wally

I've stated clearly in past posts that the gop has done a poor job with spending. They have gotten away from their roots. Both parties got us to where we are today.

Having said that, putting in a partisan dnc gov is not a good idea. Frying pan to fire and all that. But creating a dependant society, such as the dnc wants to do, will only make matters worse in the future.
129

mike - across the pond,

T55bird 04/11/2008 21:28:29
2000...

lets step back into the way back machine...

remember how the DNC supporters were saying how AlBore was SO much SMARTER...

do you remember AlBore's campaign director on the stairs going into AlBore's Florida Campaign office loudly proclaiming that "if the GOP wants other precincts in Florida recounted, the GOP will have to pay for it"???

do you remember how QUIET the GOP got?

have you ever played poker? do you KNOW what a "tell" is?

have you ever heard the saying "never stop your opponent from killing himself?"

the GOP KNEW, right at that moment, that all they had to do was let the clock run out... if the DNC didnt count ALL the ballots in the entire state... NONE of these partial recounts would hold up under "Equal Protection" statutes

the "SMARTEST GUY IN THE COUNTRY" had just dropped the ball... and apparently was completely unaware of it...

and the staff of "SMARTEST GUY IN THE COUNTRY" was SO arrogant that they ignored the GOP "tell"

then doo flinging chimps like YOU go on about "stolen elections"

but you are ignoring the FACT that even if AlBore HAD caught the tell... and requested the recount of the ENTIRE STATE... by the standards HE requested he STILL would have lost... the ONLY recount that AlBore won on was a recount using standards that NOBODY IN THE COUNTRY used, and AlBore himself STRONGLY opposed.

the election wasnt STOLEN... it was LOST
130

SouthernGent,

04/11/2008 21:30:42
141
It will take more than a president to get a fair/flat tax passed in this country, so "just having to vote for it" doesn't work.

We have to do it through congress, hence the need to clean out the "good ole boy" system in washington.
131

Virginian,

USA 04/11/2008 21:35:22
#70 Selgovae

Quote: "...are you suggesting that Obama's popularity is some kind of "equalising" process whereby he gets more votes because of his 'needs'?"

Answer:

Yes, "equality of outcome" is why the Civil Rights Act and affirmative action laws were passed.

I'm surprised that you do not know that.

132

Richardinho,

04/11/2008 21:36:42
#146 Last time, I checked, members of congress were elected.
Doesn't matter how great an idea you think it is, clearly not everyone is so certain.
Personally I'm suspicious of anything calling itself a 'fair' tax.
133

Virginian,

USA 04/11/2008 21:42:07
#70 Selgovae
Quote:

"All [my forefathers involved in founding of the US] of them? That level of inbreeding might explain your irrational ramblings."

Answer:

Yes, ALL of my forefathers were with George Washington during the American Revolutionary War.

Both sides of my family came to America during colonial times.

Since there were thousands of colonists, why would you suppose that there was any level of inbreeding?

Selgovae, your sour grapes are showing! Where are your people from?
134

mike - across the pond,

Richardinho 04/11/2008 21:46:04
if he throws HIS medals away... (I agree with you on that) psst BUT there is a small problem... he only PRETENDED to throw HIS medals away... HIS medals stayed securely locked away... and THAT makes him a coward

if he turns on his fellow troops... YOU can testify against wrongdoers without turning on your fellow troops... but thats NOT what John Kerry did, HE turned on ALL of his fellow troops.... and THAT makes him a coward

IF he voices his opinion... but Kerry couched and misrepresented his "opinions" as widespread facts... and THAT makes him a coward

We correctly judged John Kerry unfit for the highest office in our land...

W... W wasnt heading to VietNam anyway... he was an F104 pilot... they werent flying F104s in VietNam... this issue is MOOT...

Cheney... yep he got 3 exemptions, and it isnt like THOUSANDS of other guys didnt get the SAME exemptions I have an uncle who got the exact same exemptions... he's a master carpenter...

oh speaking of exemptions, like Joe BIDEN who GOT FIVE.... when are you gonna start calling Biden a draft dodger?
135

SouthernGent,

04/11/2008 21:52:49
148
If it were only that simple.....
136

Richardinho,

04/11/2008 21:54:32
'W wasnt heading to VietNam anyway... he was an F104 pilot... they werent flying F104s in VietNam..'

How convenient. Except he didn't appear to turn up for his duty here either.

'oh speaking of exemptions, like Joe BIDEN who GOT FIVE.... when are you gonna start calling Biden a draft dodger?'

I'd describe anyone who dodged the draft, legally or not, as sensible. The Vietnam war wasn't worth getting killed over. Saying that, anyone who did fight in it was very brave, but I wouldn't blame John Kerry or anyone else for being thoroughly disillusioned by the experience.
137

Richardinho,

04/11/2008 21:55:33
#151 Explain how it is any more complicated than that.
138

mike - across the pond,

richardinho.... 04/11/2008 22:15:52
ebay / amazon.com the book

fair tax... its a consumption tax...

the little guy never has to pay a dime...

but there arent any loopholes for the "cool guys" either... so it isnt EVER gonna gain traction
139

Laurette,

04/11/2008 22:17:13
#147 Is this what you meant by equality?

TMZ, of all sites, has an interesting story up about a political saboteur telling Democrats in Deerfield Beach, Florida that they are supposed to vote at a different location.

Putting aside, for the moment the dirty tricks going on, there is another important nugget to glean from the story.
Nearly 400 people were firmly planted in line at 6:15 this morning, waiting for the polls to open at 7:00 AM. There is one voting machine to accommodate all of them.
This is a predominantly African-American community, with only one machine to punch in residents' votes.
Contrast that with an email we received from a voter near Columbus, Ohio, where, he says, historically very few people show up to vote. There were 14 voting machines on hand -- in this case, a needed amount for the influx of nearby college students showing up to the polls.
140

Virginian,

USA 04/11/2008 22:19:14
We all found voting a great experience!

The lines were not very long and the people checking us in to vote were very efficient and polite.

Did see two Obama-Biden people standing by themselves with their signs, but everyone just went around the other way where the McCain-Palin signs were posted.

Not a single Black Panther with night stick in hand to be seen!

Fairly obvious that McCain-Palin have won hands down in that district of Virginia.
141

Richardinho,

04/11/2008 22:25:44
#154 Few obvious flaws.
Inflation will cause people's taxes to rise.
Collection will be difficult.
American goods will become more expensive, so you could have a flood of imports.
142

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 04/11/2008 22:43:44
Virginian.. I hope so:)
143

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 04/11/2008 22:45:21
By the Way.. Starbucks gives free coffee to people in Florida for voting. It is because of all the problems they have been through before today!! Besides they want to test out their new Thanksgiving blend!! LOL
144

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 04/11/2008 22:57:36
IN HIS OWN WORDS:OBAMA..from Townhall


The President takes an oath to “preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution. “
But Obama says: “The Constitution is a flawed document.”
The President appoints U.S. Supreme Court justices, who serve for life once confirmed by the U.S. Senate.
But Obama’s view of the Supreme Court: “[It] never ventured into the issues of redistribution of wealth … It didn’t break free from the essential constraints that were placed by the founding fathers in the Constitution.”
The reason Justice is represented in American with scales and a blindfold is because judges are supposed to dispense justice without regard to who is before them.
But here’s Obama’s view of “blind” justice: “We need somebody who's got the heart, the empathy, to recognize what it's like to be a young teenage mom, the empathy to understand what it's like to be poor or African-American or gay or disabled or old--and that's the criterion by which I'll be selecting my judges.”
The President’s energy policy should benefit users and providers of energy.
Obama’s views of energy policy: “[U]nder my plan of a cap and trade system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket.” And “If somebody wants to build a coal power plant they can, it's just that it will bankrupt them because they are going to be charged a huge sum for all that greenhouse gas that's being emitted.”

The President should extol the American promises of protection of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Here’s Obama’s view of the value of human life: “That’s above my pay grade.”
The American economic system rewarding individual initiative has created more prosperity for more people than any other system in human history. We now know that higher taxes crush new business and business growth, and reduce jobs.
Obama’s (now infamous) view of taxation?

And perhaps less well-known, in an interview with ABC News, anchor Charlie Gibson asked, “[I]n each instance, when the rate dropped, reven
145

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 04/11/2008 22:58:32
continued..

And perhaps less well-known, in an interview with ABC News, anchor Charlie Gibson asked, “[I]n each instance, when the rate dropped, revenues from the tax increased; the government took in more money. And in the 1980s, when the tax was increased to 28 percent, the revenues went down. So why raise it at all, especially given the fact that 100 million people in this country own stock and would be affected? “
Here’s what Obama says: “Well, Charlie, what I've said is that I would look at raising the capital gains tax for purposes of fairness.”
And what about Obama’s view of the First Amendment? Threats of criminal libel prosecutions, Justice Department intimidation, and no promise to veto the “Fairness Doctrine” if his compatriots in Congress pass it.
The President’s most significant responsibility is the safety of the American people.
So what is Obama’s view of Iran, a country currently building nuclear reactors? “Iran … [is] tiny … [it doesn’t] pose a serious threat to us. Iran, they spend 1/100th of what we spend on the military. If Iran ever tried to pose a serious threat to us, they wouldn't stand a chance.”
Last, but not least, my personal favorite. A quote not from Barack Obama, but his wife, Michelle, when asked about her husband running for President.
Michelle Obama’s views about her husband running for President? “It’s way too soon. He hasn’t done anything yet.”
146

Wally,

by the rivers of babylon (USA) 04/11/2008 23:16:53
Sandi in 86:

I am sympathetic to your statement that there was vote fraud in Texas. based on what I've read there seems to have been vote fraud many times over a long period of time. sometimes the beneficiaries are republican, sometimes democrat. Of course it seems true that fraudulent manipulation won the election for the republicans in 2004 if not in 2000 also. but there has been evidence brought forth over a long period of time of such things and it is not always republicans who benefit.

In los angeles and in new orleans there were incidents that benefited democrats back in 1996. law enforcement looked into both situations and had plenty of evidence to press charges. For political reasons nothing happened - no prosecution. they had many depositions telling of vote fraud in both cases.

There are people who make it their job to watch for vote fraud, and they've been telling stories that go back 30 years ago about vote fraud.

the real scandal is that the vote machines are purposely designed to facilitate fraud. malicious programs causing fraud to favor a particular candidate can be easily uploaded to any of the machines. the software decisions they made when designing the machines caused them to be easily susceptible to bad things. The system was purposely compromised is what I'm telling you. with no way of telling what went wrong either after it happens. when the vote fraud occurs, there is no record of it, only a strong suspicion it happened. The data saved with each vote is inadequate for an audit.
147

Eric D,

ALBA 04/11/2008 23:22:39
Well said Virginian (44). Obama. sounds like another Tony Blair or Alex Salmond, perish the thought.
148

Wally,

psalm 137 (USA) 04/11/2008 23:23:54
another thing Sandi - the pattern is that the political activists like yourself who pay close attention are fed info about vote fraud here or vote fraud there against their favorite candidates. Always the impression is created that the 'enemy' is doing the vote fraud. Then everyone is encouraged to support the vote machines which were to allegedly stop the vote fraud. but the reality is that the vote machines are to facilitate vote fraud on a massive scale.

my guess is that obama is so far ahead in actual polls though that they will not use the vote fraud tool to cause mccain to win. Why should they? Obama is theirs', just as mccain is.

at least we are happy to express ourselves today. I hope people notice that we did seek change.
149

Virginian,

USA 04/11/2008 23:26:05
Foxnews.com has just reported that a federal judge has ordered Virginia election officials to keep late-arriving ballots from military personnel serving overseas.

The absentee ballots were sent out too late to be returned on time.

McCain's Campaign has filed the lawsuit saying that the ballots from the military should be counted because they were not sent in time to be returned by Nov. 4th.

The judge has ordered election officials to count military absentee ballots postmarked Nov. 4th and received by November 14th.

This means that no one will know until Nov. 14th who has won Virginia because the military is solidly behind McCain.

Another report mentioned that 8,000 absentee ballots were sent to troops in Afghanistan.

If Virginia makes a difference in the end result, we won't know who won for certain until November 14th.
150

Richardinho,

04/11/2008 23:27:41
“Iran … [is] tiny … [it doesn’t] pose a serious threat to us. Iran, they spend 1/100th of what we spend on the military. If Iran ever tried to pose a serious threat to us, they wouldn't stand a chance.”

Yeah, well, that's completely true.
151

billengland,

04/11/2008 23:32:01
54 Virginian

"If McCain is not elected then there will be a rising up of the protectors of the Constitution that will astound the world just as happened in 1776."

If McCain is elected then there will be a rising up.

You can count on it!
152

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 04/11/2008 23:32:37
#166.. but Iran is now going Nuclear.. so it's still no threat?
153

Wally,

Psalm 137 (USA) 04/11/2008 23:37:50
another thing Sandi,

I would expect that the intelligent way to use the vote fraud tool would be to only fix it by a few points in some strategic situations, not always. You should understand, the nature of their power is that they don't have to use this tool very often. they think that elections are good, let the delusion that 'we the people' rule continue is going to be their attitude.

the corporations that rule the world are also buying up the polling agencies. It may become possible for them to fix both the polls and the vote results.

you can get right now that republican activists are being fed believable credible stories from their sources that democrats are cheating like crazy in this county or that county somewhere far away. Example - they'll show results of more people voting than people in the county. and 9 of 10 voters going democrat. meanwhile democrat activists will hear similar horror stories about republicans stopping democrats from voting, etc.

speaking of the people who rule fixing elections - we have no reason to believe that obama is not up in the polls because they favor him over mccain. in the real game how it is played being a republican or a democrat doesn't even matter to them.
154

Wally,

Psalm 137 (USA) 04/11/2008 23:45:44
Lynne in 107,108; thank you for that fine info. I'm sure its at least mostly correct. The one thing I'd add, is that yes I would believe that Obama voted for social security to illegal immigrants for the time they worked illegally. But that is an idea that was pressed by the bush administration in treaty negotiation with mexico. bush agreed to that (social security to illegals) in treaty, then his administration asked congress to approve it.

also, the bush admin announced back around 2001 or 2002 that it was identifying all people working with fraudulent social security numbers and give them other special identification so that the taxes on their labor could be collected including the payroll tax, as well as even keep records for later social security payments. In other words, the bush admin years ago even identified millions of illegals working in the economy and facilitated them to stay rather than kick them out.

You don't seem to understand, you hate obama and love bush, but obama is on the same team as bush.
155

Richardinho,

04/11/2008 23:52:14
#166.. but Iran is now going Nuclear.. so it's still no threat?

Of course not, since the US has far more nuclear weapons, and defences to protect itself. Iran having nuclear weapons would make it harder for the US to attack it however, which is what the republicans don't like. They want countries to be defenseless so they can push them around.
156

Wally,

Psalm 137 (USA) 05/11/2008 00:03:33
everyone is focused on the election. but the current president has just made history.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/presidentbush/2008/11/unpopular.html

CBS News says that never before in US history has a president had a 20% approval rating. I think it was when bush reached 23 that he began to break the all-time record.

regarding the controversy over Iran & nuclear weapons. We should trust the iranians as we trust others. the president they have is unpopular in iran, they have internal political problems like the US does that cause it to have a flawed leader. but still, his words spoken on Israel were mis-spoken to us. There is no logical reason to believe they'd attack israel (or anyone) with nuclear weapons if they were to acquire them.

the US facilitated china to build nuclear weaponry on a larger scale than anyone has ever done, and some get crazy over Iran. Iran hasn't attacked anyone that didn't attack them first for almost 500 years. On average for the last 50 years the US doesn't go 5 years hardly without attacking someone who didn't attack them first. Now-a-days if you count the wars we fund we do 1 per year also. and how many coup d'etat does the CIA do each decade?

having said all that, it is obvious to the casual observer that the people who rule us can create provocative events which cause war. Therefore, Lynne may be right that Iran may be a threat to Israel.
157

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 05/11/2008 00:29:09
Wally, never before has a Congress had this low an approval rating.. and it is lower than Bush's.
158

Wally,

psalm 137 (USA) 05/11/2008 01:38:15
Mike in 137:
for once I agree with you. even as a person who voted today for obama I think it is foolish & vain to vote for obama.

we don't have good leadership. that is a problem.

a very large portion of the people agree with me. I know many black people who are more contemptuous of obama than myself and won't even vote for either candidate.

a major network called Pennsylvania for obama. that is big. washington post says obama will win florida as well based on analysis of early vote. that is very big. if either virginia or north carolina goes for obama, its over.

remember, in the end of the evening california, oregon, washington & hawaii all go for obama.
159

Wally,

Psalm 137 (USA) 05/11/2008 01:41:37
Lynne in 174: for once I agree with you also. from a technical point of view congress polls a lower approval rating than bush. and congress is majority democrat.

160

,

05/11/2008 03:03:03
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
161

2dogs in D.C.,

05/11/2008 04:09:32
It's all over now.
162

Udith Fonseka,

Colombo Sri Lanka 05/11/2008 04:13:05
Except A Sikh leader in India--"it is hard to think of any modern democracy allowing a ethnic minority person to get a shot at leader".

Canada would be very interested to hear that.
In fact the exact opposite is true. Since South Africa was changed, every white modern democracy does not only allows it and has for decades, but even encourages it. Try being a black person in any Asian or Muslim country and try even voting!
Can a white person in any non-white country ever be elected to anything? In Sri Lanka Tamils only vote for Tamils,Muslims for Muslims,Sinhalese for Sinhalese and white people get a tourist visa only!!!!!

163

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 05/11/2008 04:14:54
Well, I for one have decided, since I am too young for Medicare, I think I want to get the Universal Healthcare that Obama is going to give. It's supposed to be the same as the Senators and the Congressmen. OK. I can change to that. Do you think it will be ready by Feb. 1st?
164

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 05/11/2008 04:16:00
2dog.. congrats to you. My heart is broken, I will be wearing black for the next week, as a matter of fact, I might not get out of bed!!! LOL
165

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 05/11/2008 04:18:34
#179... that's what makes America the greatest nation in the world.. in spite of what these anti-American posters say.. this is proof that our nation is heads above the rest.
166

bikewoman,

05/11/2008 04:19:11
181 Lynne

Lets Pray for 2dogs if he really does live at ground zero after Obama is sworn in.
167

Udith Fonseka,

Colombo Sri Lanka 05/11/2008 04:35:20
Attention: Lynne from Palm Beach.

Sorry for my English You 100% misread my post.
I was saying that EVERY "White" country allows an ethnic to be elected and has for decades---the USA is not at all special that way and as I did say---Canada is well ahead of you on that score. What would be special is a white man being elected to anything in 85% of the countries on this planet.
168

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 05/11/2008 04:46:29
Udith Fonseka.. It's ok ... don't worry about it.
169

2dogs in D.C.,

05/11/2008 05:50:34
Lynne-Bless and keep you well. And bikewoman-Yes, I live near enough to ground zero as to not matter. But,then,don't we all?
170

Angel4u,

New York 05/11/2008 15:03:57
32
SouthernGent,
04/11/2008 13:47:41
#30
"I guess Americans don't know what inflation is but it is all relevant I suppose."

"Then why do you wish inflation upon us? Your party has said plain as day they will raise corporate, capital gains, and investment taxes. These will lead to inflation and job loss. Yet you vote for it anyway?"

Southern Gent are you senile or suffering dementia by any chance? I love the way people can read plain english and somehow manage to twist it any way they wish to spin it.
I don't wish inflation upon anyone. Now come on, your Reagan/Bush trickle down theory did not work. Did it?
The fat got fatter and the middle class for all intent and purpose has virtually disappeared. My comment about inflation was more directed towards the fact I have family in the UK and I know the price of inflation there all too well.
Nevertheless, Democrats spoke out and we elected not to put up with the lies and deceit that has put our country on the road to ruin. President Elect Obama has his work cut out for him to fix this mess, it may take a while but we will get it done.
You speak of corporate taxes? Yep, I have to say all those cronies of the bush baby got fat and rich on the backs and the lives of American soldiers and the lives of Iraqi's. Now that my dear sir is totally UNAMERICAN. So what side did you say your on?
171

Angel4u,

New York 05/11/2008 15:10:43
Ta much Spook, lol. I am a Scot born and raised and now an American. I love my Scottish newspaper, I still have family there and believe me I post Stateside too. I love to know what is going on in my home country. That is why I am here can't tell you about the others.


The Spook in Leith,
Up town New York 04/11/2008 23:56:24
What i cant understand is why we have so many Americans posting on a Newspaper that is based in Scotland, a news paper in which most people in the USA would have never heard off. Why and im not being cheeky but why post your comments on a foreign paper ? does America not have any internet forums ?

I rather suspect that most of the American posters are sad Scots sitting picking there noses and have little else better to do than make up glamours monikers, remember we cant see you, just a bunch of letters.
172

T55Bird,

05/11/2008 21:12:30
138 Not going to say it again. One person, one vote. Majority rules. Winner of popular vote wins election. Pretty simple.

 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
  

 
 


Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.