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Published Date: 24 January 2009
MSPs were warned yesterday they will have "blood on their hands" if they fail to change the law over knife crime.
A summit in Holyrood heard the stark warning from John Muir, 69, the campaigning father of Damian Muir, who was murdered 18 months ago.

He warned of many more deaths if MSPs fail to introduce mandatory prison sentences for people carrying knives
in Scotland.

The summit was called by Holyrood's petitions committee after Mr Muir brought his Damian's Law petition of 16,000 signatures to the parliament.

It included victims of knife attacks, community groups, politicians including Community Safety Minister Fergus Ewing, police, legal experts and social service professionals.

However, there was strong disagreement over the way forward, with two camps emerging in the debate.

The split fell between those who wanted stronger prison sentences and those who believed prisons do not work.

Mr Ewing said the Scottish Government favoured bringing in a presumption of prison sentences, but not mandatory ones, and for the issue to be looked at by a new sentencing council.

However, he was left disappointed by the meeting and suggested it had been hijacked by people with a liberal "soft touch" agenda, whom he branded "the limp handshake brigade".

He said: "You had an opportunity to change Scotland for the better. This was an opportunity overlooked. It disappoints me and I can see the disappointment in a number of people of here."

The summit heard that Scotland has the worst knife crime statistics in the UK, three and a half times more than south of the Border and, on average, surgeons in Glasgow deal with a facial injury every six hours.

But many of the professionals involved in the discussions came out against mandatory sentences.

Detective Chief Superintendent John Carnochan, of the police violence reduction unit, said: "I've been a cop for 34 years. If I thought locking people up the first time they were carrying a knife and giving them four years in the jail would work I'd be your man."

But DCS Carnochan argued that mandatory sentences had not worked when they were used against razor gangs in Glasgow in the 1930s and said he believed they would not work now.

However, the call for tough minimum sentences was backed by both Labour and the Conservatives.

The summit was over-shadowed by the non-show of Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill, who had decided to attend a series of Burns suppers in Canada.

The SNP insisted that Mr Ewing is the minister responsible for knife crime, but Conservative research has shown that Mr MacAskill has answered 68 per cent of the questions on knife crime and been the minister quoted in the only two press releases on the issue.

Meanwhile, Labour has produced a leaflet Mr MacAskill put out in his Edinburgh East constituency in which he said that knife crime is not a problem in the East of Scotland. But they have also published the results of a freedom of information request which shows there has been on average one knife attack a day in the Lothians.

Labour justice spokesman Richard Baker said: "Kenny MacAskill's non-appearance at the knife summit was one thing, but his absolutely complacency on knife crime outside of the west of Scotland is horrifying."

Mr Ewing described the attacks on his colleague as "pathetic".


Case Study 1: The killing behind Damian's Law

THE campaign to change the law on knife crime was launched by John Muir after his son, Damian, was murdered 18 months ago.

The 34-year-old was stabbed eight times on 14 July, 2007, in a random attack as he returned from a football club presentation in Greenock.

His killer, Barry Gavin, 21, who was on bail at the time of the killing and had two previous convictions for knife crime, was jailed for a minimum of 15 years.

Gavin stabbed his victim eight times so hard that the blade of his knife broke. Mr Muir, 69, raised a petition to introduce a new "Damian's Law". The idea is that anybody convicted of just carrying, not necessarily using, a knife in public would receive a mandatory jail sentence.


Case Study 2: Attack ended academic career

THE horrors of knife attacks were graphically described yesterday by a 19-year-old victim.

Mark Paterson was set upon in Easterhouse just 70 yards from his home, three months ago.

He was stabbed twice in the arm and once in the chest before knocking his attacker to the ground. He fled, but his attacker caught up and stabbed him in the left arm, before Mr Paterson reached his home.

The assailant was not convicted because Mr Paterson was the only witness.

The events have shattered Mr Paterson's life. He gave up his degree in maths and astrophysics and plans to move into the centre of Glasgow away from his family home.



The full article contains 820 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 23 January 2009 11:44 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Knife culture
 
1

Wardog™,

24/01/2009 00:11:31

Labour making political hay out of an important issue.

"...Detective Chief Superintendent John Carnochan, of the police violence reduction unit, said: "I've been a cop for 34 years. If I thought locking people up the first time they were carrying a knife and giving them four years in the jail would work I'd be your man."

But DCS Carnochan argued that mandatory sentences had not worked when they were used against razor gangs in Glasgow in the 1930s and said he believed they would not work now....."


Says it all, Labour are playing catchup.

Where was there support for extra police?

What a sham.
2

COLINTON.MAINS,

Oakville Ontario 24/01/2009 01:28:44
THE.WORLD.IS.LEARNING.ABOUT.ALL.THE.VIOLENCE.IN.SCOTLAND
3

Irish by berth British by choice,

Edinburgh 24/01/2009 01:58:27
Stabbed to death ! Nae Bother ! Broon et al will give yer family £12k. " pop the corks ?
Now if the ned that does the knifing also "unfortunately" passes on by virtue of falling on his own blade then his family get £12k as well.
Isn't life wonderful or still fckugin sick ?

4

Jimmyboy,

on the coast of Oregon 24/01/2009 01:59:54
I'm thinking to myself, how do you protect mankind
from mankind. Ban Guns, ban knives, then spoons and forks because they cause you to be overweight, then
sticks and stones, then pencils because they misspell
words and specially keyboards that misspell peoples
names, that hurts! What are we missing? It seems there
may be another answer....Oh but thats not sociable acceptable is it ?
5

drunken proffet,

Tassy 24/01/2009 02:08:48
I am but a voice crying in the wilderness. Bring back the birch. Or the belt or cane. I draw a line at cutting bits off, I'm not a barbarian you know.
6

DesertRat,

Somewhere in the desert 24/01/2009 05:17:34
#4 Jimmyboy may be on to something. Maybe even something profound. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Knives don't kill people, people kill people. Pencils don't misspell, people misspell. Seems to me the objects aren't responsible - people are.
7

W Smith,

Middle East 24/01/2009 05:24:34
Looking to two ex-members of the radical left-wing 79 Group (Salmond and MacAskill) for answers is a complete fantasy.

Salmonds more interested in the Gazas strip and anti-nuclear and anti-NATO demonstrations.

WHAT DO THE SNP SUPPORTERS EXPECT??

Now if the murder victim is muslim then the SNP will be out on the streets demonstrating against Scottish 'morons' and 'thugs' as Salmond called them in 2001.

"They (muslims) are far more part of Scottish society than the MORONS and the THUGS who have been threatening them will ever be"

Alex Salmond, September 2001.

Since becoming First Minister Salmond had been more interested in writing letters to Mugabe who, according to Salmond, isn't a 'moron' or a 'thug'.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk_politics/2001/conferences_2001/snp/1554173.stm

8

T M,

LA, USA 24/01/2009 06:30:29
The use of a knife in any violent attack should be attempted murder and the perpetrator should be put in jail for a Very Long Time.

Surely everyone has learned by now that soft on crime doesn't work??
9

drunken proffet,

Tassy 24/01/2009 07:26:51
#6 The Secret Mole. You could be right, but I have always been against lobotomy, cold baths or electrical shock treatment. Still you have to cure the wee physco's someway.
10

King Richard IV,

Brisbane 24/01/2009 07:32:33
What about the recent attack in Belgium by someone made up like the "Joker"? Are there any kids left in Belgium that havn't suffered assault,incest,depravation of liberty,sodomy,etc,etc? Whatever happened to just keeping your head down and making chocolate over there?.
11

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 24/01/2009 08:00:22
Haggis muncher MacAskill will not be forgiven.
12

Hugo of Garven,

24/01/2009 08:05:54
" . . mandatory sentences had not worked when they were used against razor gangs in Glasgow in the 1930s"

So what stopped the razor gangs?

13

drunken proffet,

Tassy 24/01/2009 08:08:12
#11 King Richard IV. Kids rely on adults to keep the discipline. Nowadays in the classrooms this does not happen. How many folk got belted at school? Not a lot and they recognised the why and wherefore and held no grudges.(apart from maybe folk in the PC brigade). How many kids go out with a knife to protect themselves. Quite a lot since the powers that be are incapable of punishing the miscreants who look on a knife the same way as a young entrepreneur looks on a red Ferrari. You have lost the track boys, you are sacrifycing 95% of your kids because you have not the b*lls to properly handle the other 5% who presumably only need love and attention.
14

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 24/01/2009 08:34:57
Poor daft, useless MacAskill, hoist by his own petard. Wants to be seen to be tough on crime but doesn't want to send ANYONE to jail for anything less than six months. Which is fine by me. Five years of hard labour for a first offence of knife carrying sounds good to me. We can but dream.....
15

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 24/01/2009 08:40:30
There is no simple solution to this problem.
If prison sentences were made mandatory for anyone found carrying a knife, would the prisons be full of people who had inadvertently broken the law ?
Workmen with a knife in a toolbox, hikers with a knife in a rucksack or campers with a knife in their car ?
( We have been told that all of these people are currently breaking the present law on carrying knives. )
16

drunken proffet,

Tassy 24/01/2009 08:50:04
#15 Draco was a Wimp. Who wants to send kids to jail for carrying a knife for their protection. I want to flog kids to within an inch of their lives for USING a knife. Not only does it inflict pain in comparison to the pain inflicted on their victim but since you turn him loose after his punishment, it is heck of an economical. It's the Scots in me, I hate to waste money.
17

TWC,

24/01/2009 09:43:07
Not May Die - will die.

This problem has been here since I was a boy and I'm retired now.
Labour have been in power in Scotland all my adult life and they've done nothing with the problem(or any other problem for that matter)

Corporal punishment is the answer - Birch people who use knives or repeated violence.
18

VAR,

Zavelstein 24/01/2009 09:45:00
More laws won't work. Just enforce the ones on the books. Knife/gun/pipe/bat=deadly weapon. Deadly weapon used in an attack should result in attempted murder charge and being put away for a long time. At least that gets the miscreants off the streets. Being hard on crime does work, that is why New York is safer than London now.
19

drew 33,

duddingston 24/01/2009 09:46:38
Let's abolish knives, let the scum use screwdrivers instead. Seems we never learn hand guns made illegal and gun deaths increase, similarly with carrying knives. I have a friend who has carried a pocket knife for 68 years, should I do my duty and report him to the police? It is people not things that are the criminals.
20

sceptic,

livingston 24/01/2009 10:08:35
#22
"should I do my duty and report him to the police?"
Probably result in an armed response unit, 8 police and 3 squad cars at his door within the hour.If he puts his hand in his pocket he will likely get 7 bullets in the head and one in the shoulder while being held down.
21

TWC,

24/01/2009 10:45:28
24 JayDeeTee

There but for the grace of god go I .... springs to mind.

When I was young there were a few bad guys who had weapons but they were on their own so you could still take them on but now too many stupid but saveable kids are also carrying knives.
The birch would frighten them away and back to the good side of the line.
I was no shrinking violet but I tried stay away from trouble.
22

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 24/01/2009 11:19:20
#25 TWC

Correct. It's a choice. Surely someone with even a modicum of intelligence would think twice if they took a decision which led to even a remore chance they would end up the end of a rope. How many of these *rs*holes get away with culpable homicide and a 2 or 3 year sentence for kiling someone? You cause a death by stabbing someone meant you took the decision to carry a knife. It's murder and the death penalty. End of. The good thing is, the majority of these killings seem to involve wastes of space killing other wastes of space.
23

puskas,

East kilbride 24/01/2009 11:31:29
No20 TWC,


So true.

24

Grahamski,

Falkirk 24/01/2009 11:50:35
28
A big LOL?
More like a glimpse into what your average cybernat sees as acceptable. Once you get past their deluded romanticism and a perverted view of our country's history you're left with bitter wee gossips whispering poison about their neighbours and making threatening anonymous phonecalls to anybody who doesn't share their narrow and snide world view......
25

,

24/01/2009 11:55:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
26

Grahamski,

Falkirk 24/01/2009 11:59:06
31
You're right, Mr MacAskill doesn't care - he's too busy fundraising in Canada for the SNP at the public's expense. See troughs? See pigs? See nats?
27

Observer,,

Glasgow 24/01/2009 11:59:44
30 28 Is not a cybernat he is a mentally defective troll who's purpose is to wreck these threads. He fakes anyone om either ''side'' of the argument and posts pornographic made-up blogs. He should be taken outside and shot.

28

Grahamski,

Falkirk 24/01/2009 12:03:16
Hi Observer,
Are you seriously trying to claim that the cybernats are not guilty of posting home addresses and phone numbers of their political opponents?
29

Observer,,

Glasgow 24/01/2009 12:03:48
32 this summit was always destined to be a waste of time because there are some issues you can't get agreement on. This is one of them. Personally I am of the view that there should be a presumption of a custodial sentence, but it shouldn't be mandatory. However I also know for a fact that prison does not have eny effect whatsoever on the kind of guys who go about chibbed up in Glasgow, so if we are going to put them in prison we need to look at what we do with them while they are in there, or it would be a complete waste of time and money.
30

Observer,,

Glasgow 24/01/2009 12:05:45
34 Grahamski I am seriously telling you that the guy at 28 is a mentally defective troll. I have also seen other posters posting what they think is AM2's address and personal details. That is completely wrong, as the majority of nationalists would agree.
31

Grahamski,

Falkirk 24/01/2009 12:15:13
35
I suspect that prison does have an effect on these guys. The problem is the effect is the wrong one. I know it's tempting to go down the hang 'em and flog 'em road when faced with street violence of this level. Also, experience from the 60s in Glasgow when the justice system hammered anybody caught in possession of razors apparently helped to stop that problem.
The real solution to this problem doesn't lie with the judiciary, it lies with our politicians who need to give leadership and provide a society which allows every citizen to play a constructive and rewarding part in every day life.
It is impossible to tackle the culture of the knife when we spend so little time on the culture of deprivation and neglect. Until we build a society where people can live in dignity we will never rid ourselves of this problem.
36
Good for you....
32

Observer,,

Glasgow 24/01/2009 12:17:54
37 Oh dear Grahamski I find myself in complete agreement with you, how very very boring. Oh well we can live to fight another day.
33

Grahamski,

Falkirk 24/01/2009 12:21:33
38
Luckily there's football on so I'm taking myself off before I lose all credibility...agreeing with Observer, whatever next?
Have a great Saturday, bye.....
34

IainA,

Edinburgh 24/01/2009 12:33:47
I wonder if the focus is on the wrong problem here. Everyone appears to be hysterical about the carrying of knives leading to violence, but I wonder, is it that people are violent and use knives? If there were no knives, they'd use broken bottles, no bottles and they'd use knapped flint daggers or sharpened sticks. I suspect that the culture of violence is the issue, not the culture of knives. Those of us over a certain age, will remember being able to buy knives over the counter at sports shops - anyone remember the "scout" sheath knife? An enormous six inch serrated dagger with the scout emblem on the handle? It wasn't considerd an immediate incitement to violence.
35

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 24/01/2009 12:58:28
#33 Observer

Taking people out and shooting them? For a moment I thought you'd had a Damascene conversion and joined Draco School of Criminal Justice......
36

Parallax,

Scotish-American in China 24/01/2009 13:00:53
The problem is social -
a cross bow can be made from a fish pole - A pointed stick is a knife - how far can a L of petrol move a car at 85 KM per hour ?
Time to grow up & eliminate the drugs.
37

Ewan Randall,

24/01/2009 14:04:11
(#7) – (DesertRat) – You aware of the Stan Laurel corker “you can lead a horse to water but a pencil must be lead?

Have you never thought it strange that when discussing crimes committed by people, the conclusion is that people commit them?

If you take the gun away from the people can they use it to commit crimes

When the trigger of the gun is pulled isn’t the mechanism which fires the bullet responsible for dispatching the bullet?

If you take away the mechanism which fires the bullet are then people responsible for shooting?
38

Thomas79,

Ayrshire 24/01/2009 16:05:59
I am an SNP supporter, but I do think they should be tough on crime, especially knife crime. Labour should not milk this issue politically, the whole parliament should get together and constructively develop a strategy to deter and reduce knife crime.
39

JCA REID,

Annan 24/01/2009 16:12:22
Quite a while back when Glasgow had the "No Mean City Attitude", the knife gang members were arrested & locked up. Sentences of 10years were handed down. Porridge back then was a lot harder than it is now & the knife culture disappeared.
sentencing to 4years now means they could be out in 12-24months.
Time for a REAL change in Policy & Punishment but the powers that be ain't got the balls to do it.
40

Western Gael,

24/01/2009 16:53:30
This really is not all that complex. There are two issues to deal with. The first is the crime, and the focus is wrongly on knives. Assaults, whether spontaneous or planned, are the heart of this issue. The knife is only the instrument of the crime. Guns, knives, screwdrivers, broken glass – none of that matters. Serious assault is serious assault. All instances should be considered equal. The second issue is the punishment. Considering assault as merely a symptom of personality disorder does nothing to protect the public from reoffending. Imprisonment indisputably protects citizens from being assaulted by at least one thug for some period of time.
41

Miss H,

24/01/2009 20:57:47
47 That's a fair point. There is an interesting argument that there is a correlation between countries which have a two-party system of politics e.g. the USA or UK and countries which have proportional systems in which more parties have an influence on policy and the treatment of crime.

In countries like the US and UK crime is a key election issue at all times and tends to end up in a bidding war as to who can appear toughest. In contrast crime is less politicised in other European countries and, surprise surprise, they have less of it. Partly this is because there is more opportunity for politicians to work in a consensual way and develop evidence-based policies rather than being constantly in competition for who appears toughest.

In Scotland we are still to some extent stuck in the let's-be-seen-as-being-tough-on-crime mode but have the opportunity to break that cycle.
42

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 24/01/2009 21:40:41
None of the ban the knife brigade have been able to give me a single rational answer to the following.

Prior to the present (idiotic) legislation I carried a folding penknife of one form or another for over 40 years, with no thought of using it as a weapon or, I believe, posing any threat to anyone else.

If knives are so dangerous, why am I allowed to carry any knife in virtually every other European country ? The old common-sense rule of a folding knife with a blade of less than 3.5 inches was appropriate and yet, when wearing a kilt, I can legally carry a sgian dubh with a fixed blade of no more than 3.5 inches. Where is the logic in that ? If I can carry a sgian dubh the I should be able to carry a folding penknife - end of story.

The law-abiding majority should never be penalised because of the actions of a small minority. Punish their actions appropriately and leave those of us with sense alone..
43

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 24/01/2009 21:44:27
That includes multi-tools with folding blades too. Interestingly, I can buy a multi-tool with saw blades. As long as I remove the knife blade(s) it is 100% legal apparently. Yet a saw blade is potentially more devastating than a knife blade. Even the screwdrivers on a multi-tool can be deadly.

 

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