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Published Date: 21 May 2008
THE Scottish Government's flagship policy for funding major public projects was last night branded a shambles – amid renewed fears of delays in building new schools, hospitals and the Forth crossing.
The SNP's widely anticipated Scottish Futures Trust programme was also denounced as a broken election promise. Opponents said the Nationalists had gone back on their pledge by still allowing private firms to profit by funding major schemes.

Launch
ing the SFT, Alex Salmond, the First Minister, said it would save up to £150 million a year by securing cheaper investment rates on markets through bulk purchasing. "The development of the Scottish Futures Trust is the way forward, offering both better value finance and secure investment," he said.

"It is right for Scotland, right for our public services and right for our times. By releasing up to £150 million each year for increased investment, we can ensure more resources for our public infrastructure compared to wasteful PFI."

However, critics immediately pounced on the document and said it appeared to be full of holes. On page 39, the proposal openly admitted that it still did not know how private finance would be raised – and while the Scottish Government plans to create a new municipal bond based on the collective assets and revenue streams of councils, none has yet signed up to it. This sparked immediate fears of delays for key projects, including the new Forth crossing.

The SFT is due to be set up in the summer as an arms-length government company. However, no new projects will be commissioned until at least the 2009-10 financial year, leading to concerns about schemes already waiting for funding.

The SNP had proposed the futures trust as a means of replacing the much-derided public private partnerships (PPPs) which they claimed allowed the private sector to profiteer at the expense of the public purse. The PPP had replaced the very similar private finance initiative.

But last night, unions damned the SFT proposal as simply being another form of PPP, a criticism echoed by political parties who also questioned why no projects were commissioned for a year while the SNP looked for an alternative to PPP.

They pointed to the fact the SFT would use the not-for-profit distribution mechanism which is a form of PPP, and simply means the level of profit is agreed at the outset of the contract. "It is merely PFI-lite," said Unison's Scottish secretary Matt Smith. "No amount of spin can change the fact that the private sector will continue to build, design and run public services under this plan, and they will continue to take a profit out of our essential services."

Andy Kerr, Labour's local government spokesman, added: "The SFT is PPP with a lick of cheap paint. Most observers recognise the makeover has only produced uncertainty. This is a hare-brained scheme, a shambles, which will only lead to delay or possible cancellation of vital projects like new schools or even the new Forth road bridge."

Derek Brownlee, the Conservative finance spokesman, said: "The Scottish Futures Trust has changed more often than Labour's referendum policy. However it is dressed up, the key principle of PFI/PPP is maintained – leveraging in private investment into public infrastructure. Put simply, it is not so much the SFT, as the SNP-PP."

Liam McArthur, the Liberal Democrat finance spokesman, also scorned the proposals. "The only thing about the Scottish Futures Trust which they haven't changed is the name," he said.

Business leaders were also unimpressed by the lack of detail.

In particular, a line from the document admitted that there was no real strategy to raise private finance. It said: "The details of how investment will be raised from the private sector has not been explored in any detail as part of this strategic business case, rather that will fall to SFT delivery as part of the business planning for SFT finance and investment."

David Lonsdale, CBI Scotland's assistant director, said he was unimpressed.

"While we want to see the maximum bang delivered for the taxpayer's buck, it's difficult at this point to see how these vague proposals will achieve this," he said.

"For one thing, it seems astonishing that none of the detail has so far been explored about how investment will be raised from the private sector. And the Scottish Government needs to be far clearer about what the incentives will be for firms looking to invest in our public services."

Michael Levack, from the Scottish Building Federation, said that there was too much delay and that he was concerned that nothing will be commissioned until 2009.

"If the delay goes on it is going to have an impact on the building trade because we need the volume of work," he said. "I was interested that the ministers were talking about huge profit margins for PPP, if we make 2 or 3 per cent we are doing extremely well.

"Whilst the building trade won't leave Scotland, the financing side may look elsewhere if there is too much delay."

The Convention of Scottish Local Authorities (Cosla) took a cautious stance on the proposal.

Its president, Pat Watters, said:

"Having just had the detail presented to us we will now seek a local government reaction to what is being proposed. I have however had an assurance from the Cabinet Secretary that Cosla will be fully involved in any future discussions."

But a senior Cosla source told The Scotsman that as things stand the SFT proposal is "a joke" and it is unlikely that councils will be rushing to support the bonds issue.

However, there was some praise for the SFT.

Keith Patterson, a partner at the law firm Brodies, said: "This approach ensures investors a return on their investment but the capped return structure means it is not possible to make windfall profits, and this should be more acceptable to the public."

The greatest praise came from Professor John Kay, a Fellow of St John's College, Oxford, a Visiting Professor of Economics at the London School of Economics, and a member of the Council of Economic Advisers,

He said: "PFI is well past its sell-by date. The Scottish Futures Trust can achieve its three objectives of cheaper finance, better project management and the operation of infrastructure projects for the benefit of the people of Scotland."

SFT

So what's the difference between new and old?

DESPITE the SNP's original intention, the Scottish Futures Trust does not mean the end of public-private partnerships.

The SFT would be an arm's length company split in two and run by a board. The board would have a public sector wing for the delivery of projects and a private wing to raise finance.

The board would be chaired by the Finance Secretary, who would have primary responsibility to parliament on the issue. The reason an arm's length company is being created is to get round the borrowing limitations of the Scottish Government.

The SFT would act as a point of central expertise in Scotland and co-ordinate projects across the country. Councils or other public bodies would approach it for advice on how best to get a project off the ground.

The SFT would then suggest it took a not-for-profit model of the PPP, or get together with other councils to raise bonds to fund a series of similar projects, or find an alternative funding mechanism, possibly prudential borrowing from the public loans board.

The issue of bonds has caused some confusion because the original plan was for the SFT to raise Scottish Government bonds for all projects. However, the Scottish Government cannot raise bonds or take on debt under the terms of the Scotland Act.

The way round this is for councils with much needed projects grouping together and using their assets and revenue stream to raise money through bonds. Bonds give investors a guaranteed income and are seen as a safe investment, especially with councils, which are not allowed to go out of business.

The document says the SFT will not be able to finance projects itself until 2009-10.

One difference with PPP is that maintenance may now be carried out by the council instead of having that agreed as part of a scheme.

PPP

PUBLIC private partnerships, known more commonly as PPPs, were Labour's way of softening a financing scheme invented by the Conservatives.

The original concept was known as the private finance initiative (PFI). Both enabled a council, health board or other public authority to bring forward an infrastructure scheme, such as a road, school or hospital which needed to be built, but for which they did not have the money or the borrowing power.

They would ask consortiums of builders and financiers to make an offer to build and then maintain the project for between 20 and 30 years.

The public body would then commit itself to pay an annual sum to the consortium, and at the end of the period take ownership of the building. The problems arose because some councils were paying well over the odds for a project, partly because of hidden profit margins within the maintenance side.

The not-for-profit model was the latest PPP development to have an agreed profit margin before the project was started. However, even under this model, a school or hospital would be built for the cost of two.

Analysis

Not the big bang we need, but not a total damp squib


"THIS is not the big bang that we were hoping for and is clearly a watered down version of what the SNP had talked about previously," said John Watt, a partner in Government and Infrastructure Advisory at Grant Thornton, Scotland.

"Whilst this announcement is long-awaited and it's very interesting to see where the Scottish Government is going, it is clear that there is still much work to be done for the Scottish Futures Trust to deliver all that ministers are seeking to do.

"It is important that it facilitates a pipeline of projects in Scotland to be brought forward as soon as possible because we have already had a year's delay.

"We still need to see details on how private financing will be raised for projects and how they expect to deliver them. This is absolutely crucial to the whole concept being a success.

"There are schools projects in Moray, the Western Isles and Orkney which are going to be complicated and difficult to deliver and which the SFT is going to have to address.

"With this there is also a potential problem in the use of not for profit distribution (NPD) models which potentially reduces the amount of profit, especially in projects where there is a high degree of risk. Private sector investors may think, 'what is in this for me?'

"It is also clear that the SFT is going to have to start working very quickly.

"The government wants to spend £14 billion on infrastructure projects in three years and we have already had a year's delay waiting for details of the SFT. However, it is clear that a lot of work has been done on the business case for the SFT, which is good and there are many positive things in this document and the government is offering a new way forward.

"Whether it will succeed or not will depend on what the government brings forward in the coming weeks."







The full article contains 1912 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 21 May 2008 1:49 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish National Party
 
1

Senga Jean,

21/05/2008 00:09:37
Scotsman! Your language is too sensationalist for a serious subject. You should be laying out the facts dispassionately and even have an intelligent analyst comment. What do you do? Allow the venting of bile by political hacks. If it IS just PPP lite that alone will satisfy my wish to end crazy profiteering. The SNP is the only party to attempt fair and reasonable public spending. I support them.
2

Senga Jean,

21/05/2008 00:16:04
Oh yes. AND if they lack the powers under the current arrangements.? Just scrap the Scotland Act and give us INDEPENDENCE.
3

Am Balach,

Isle of Skye 21/05/2008 00:25:48
The SNP never said there would be no private money. How could they when the Scottish Government can't borrow money? It's SFT until independence. As reported in the Times yesterday Scotland will then be in such surplus we could build everything we wanted without borrowing a penny.
4

truthsleuth,

21/05/2008 00:31:16
Agnes
Its clear where your politics lie.
The SNP have been just as bad if not worse than the other political parties
When given the chance to go full tilt for independance by Wendy they tucked their tails between their legs and ran for cover.
open your eyes the pillars of the Second Forth Road bridge will be missed only by the petrol heads
It is no flagship just another failed icon.
5

Conan the Librarian™,

21/05/2008 00:39:26
4
Do you mean the referendum that Wendy offered?And was slapped down by Broon?
So just who ran for cover?
6

Canadian Jambo,

21/05/2008 01:06:38
I'm sure it is all Broon's fault.
7

,

21/05/2008 01:07:00
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8

,

21/05/2008 01:15:59
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9

,

21/05/2008 01:18:05
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10

Conan the Librarian™,

21/05/2008 01:24:14
7 8 9
;-) Paul Grice. Have you heard of him?
11

,

21/05/2008 01:28:12
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12

,

21/05/2008 01:32:49
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13

An Beal Bacht,

21/05/2008 01:42:29
The Scottish Government is not allowed to raise money? But they're allowed to go into debt to speculators through PPP/PFI? Great system. Our government seems to be doing not so bad fighting all those unionist parties as well as Westmin with their hands tied behind their backs.

Where's Wendy BTW? Still in hiding?
14

Conan the Librarian™,

21/05/2008 01:47:08
13
Do you mean vacuous stuff? Vicious? Viscous?
All seem to apply.
15

,

21/05/2008 01:48:27
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16

Conan the Librarian™,

21/05/2008 01:50:46
17
Ahh.Me thick.Cut and paste old posts.
Reminds me of AM2...
17

,

21/05/2008 01:51:47
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18

,

21/05/2008 01:59:31
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19

Conan the Librarian™,

21/05/2008 01:59:58
19
Got a Volkswagen for sale?
Or even a Citroen Traction Avant?
20

Royster,

21/05/2008 02:24:47
It's a failed document. There's a credit crunch. Most lenders want a straight-forward government guarantees not securitised debt in the form of revenue streams from councils. The SNP, as usual, is so far behind the curve.
21

S'me,

Edinburgh 21/05/2008 02:59:25
blah blah blah.. The SNP activists are on the case so boring.
22

donald,

glasgow 21/05/2008 04:24:45
Labour lackeys have no ambition for Scotland
23

Son of Loki,

The Dark Side 21/05/2008 05:54:07
If folks are looking for money why don't we do what Labour enjoy doing? ie robbing the tax payers who can least afford it.

Could we just try Independence? You know, take it out for a few years, see if it matches any other country, see if it meets our needs.

The only way we are going to get it is through a violent and bloody revolution. If Alec has no objections, I'll take care of the military side of things.

Anyone want to give me a hand?

I'll start with the liberals and the pc brigade. I promise to show no mercy as I wipe them off the face of the earth. The English electorate will get rid of Gordon Brown for us and the first person they elect to replace him, I'll do them as well.

I'm open to suggestions on how to do this properly.

Stay alive people, it's the only way to live

Loki Jnr
24

Royster,

21/05/2008 06:33:04
It's typical SNP. Promising something for nothing and guess what? It doesn't work. Who is going to invest in something if they don't get an adequate return? If money doesn't come from the private sector, it has to come from the public sector which means less money in taxpayers' pockets and all the inefficiencies associated with bureaucracy. Real back of an envelope stuff from the SNP.
25

morris,

edinburgh 21/05/2008 06:38:41
4
The SNP have a manifesto committment to a referendum in 2010.They were elected on that basis.They intend to hold it. End of Deabate.
The person who is "delaying/refusing" a referendum is Gordon Brown!Wendy wanted to "bring it on".Its labour who cannot agree with Labour and you have to be pretty dense to not realise it!As the SNP continues in office their popularity grows,and 2010 would appear to be a sensible choice.It surely makes sense to have as much information on the performance of an SNP administration as possible before we commit to one in perpetuity,or is common sense beyond your imagination?

Labour will not be returned to office in Scotland until they grow up and behave like a party of governmnent. At the moment the Holyrood contingent are an embarrassment and you have to be pretty one party state minded to fail to realise this.
26

morris,

edinburgh 21/05/2008 06:47:56
33
The SNP work within the confines of Westminsters finances,that and being a minority government (as you are well aware)!
Under those circumstances they have actually achieved more than Labour/lib Dem managed in eight years.Those are the facts and the opinion polls show it.In the latest poll (a small sample taken in Scotland I agree)Labour finished below the Conservatives ! Who would ever have thought that possible ten years ago?Labour are a spent force with no leader in Scotland and no contenders either. A bunch of muppets who are out of their depth and it shows.
If Wendy Jackie Bailiie and Margaret Curran are considered to be talented then forget the Labour Party because they will destroy themselves.They are already on their way !
27

Claire22,

21/05/2008 07:31:52
"SNP Funding Plan" - well there's an oxymoron.

There never was a plan, they have not said and are still not saying exactly how the money would be raised.

28

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 21/05/2008 07:34:43
Ahhh... so, 'not for profit' really means that profits are fixed, like 'at cost + 10%'. Why the double-speak?

I may be wrong, but I suspect that Centralised State Planning mentioned in the article will not really produce better value for money...
29

,

21/05/2008 07:38:37
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30

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 21/05/2008 07:39:07
...Meanwhile, the cost of a new Forth road bridge escalates...... Dither... Dither... Dither...
31

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/05/2008 07:59:11
Just another piece of Labour party propaganda wrapped up as a news story. I aint participating in any mair o this nonsence so this will be my only post on the matter. Its just troll feed. The real story will be told at the next election.
32

brownlie,

21/05/2008 08:05:00
37 Claire

As you can see from the article we unionist always welcome and thrive on negativity and your posting is a tremendous asset in that direction.

Perhaps you can enlarge on your posting by pointing out the advantages in lucrative profits that our big business friends can gain from PFI?

The nats will, no doubt, respond with examples of enormous profits, at the tax-payers' expense, being made through PFI but we will counter these with our usual negativity.
33

Jam Tarts 1874,

On the Rebound 21/05/2008 08:07:54
SNP = Tartan Tories = cuts, cuts, cuts, cuts.

Well done all you "Braveheart" voters!
34

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 21/05/2008 08:10:37
Andy Kerr should hang his head in shame.The horrendous costs of PFI (an acronym for pay for ever) has well documented recently.It is vital for future generations that an alternative way of building schools and hospitals is found.Id SFI is cheaperr and does result in better project management then lets give it a try.

35

Phillip,

21/05/2008 08:13:40
Let me get this straight. The SNP is trying to stop private corporations from making grossly overinflated profits on public projects. The Unionist parties who get the largest campaign donations from those same corporations are attacking the plan as being useless, impossible, and underfunded. While professional economists who won't lose money either way see merit in the plan.

Who's Against the Plan:
- Big Corporations
- Unionist Parties

Who's For the Plan:
- SNP minority government
- Independent economists

Potential Losers:
- Big Corporations
- Unionist Politicians & Parties who get donations from those Big Corporations and who are essentially bought and paid for by those corporations

Potential Winners:
- Scottish taxpayers who see less of their hard earned money wasted making rich Corporate executives richer & corrupt politicians even more corrupt

Seems like the ones spouting off about what a horrible idea this is are the exact same ones who will lose the most money.

Yet another example of the SNP being on the side of the Scottish people and the Unionist Parties (Labour, Tories & Lib Dems) taking orders from their London & Corporate Masters.

And I find the comment about no Councils signing up for the municipal bonds plan rather humerous. So none of those Labour dominated councils are willing to take part in a plan that will provide them with better infrastructure investmet? Could it be because their Masters won't let them so that they can force the bond plan to fail?

It's time for Independence and time for all the Labour, Tory & LibDem criminals to be booted from office.
36

A Crofter,

Western Isles 21/05/2008 08:17:59
Tried to watch this mindnumbingly-boring beancounter explain this tosh on Newsnight - went to watch the paint drying instead!

No wonder the SNP almost disappeared without trace under his leadership.
37

thinking,

Scotland 21/05/2008 08:19:47
It would appear that the original PF would have worked if the government had people responsible for it who understood business and had ensured there were no 'hidden or extra' charges to bump Company profits at taxpayers expense. Buildings and roads have to be maintained so it doesn't matter who is paid for it as long as it is a reasonable price. Usually there is a choice between inefficient, unaccountable government run departments or efficient but profit making private companies.
Unfortunately, most MPs/MSPs have little or no experience outside university and politics, hence the astonishing costs and poor quality of projects such as the Scottish Government Building
38

,

21/05/2008 08:30:56
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39

brownlie,

Scalpay 21/05/2008 08:34:59
49 A crofter

Quite right, a charaid, the person in charge of our economy should be witty, gregarious, possibly with an alcohol-fuelled red nose, and a bit zany - like our George Foulkes, for example.
40

brownlie,

21/05/2008 08:37:56
51 Jock

Quite right, the SNP should drop their tartan trews and, in an attempt to be trendy, wear pin-striped kilts instead.
41

Jings Crivens,

21/05/2008 08:41:47
The devil is in the detail and that is where Cavalier Salmond and gang always fall down.

Looks like yet another broken SNP promise, still no surprise there.
42

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 21/05/2008 08:43:37
Great idea. Pity about the implementation.
43

brownlie,

21/05/2008 08:45:45
53 bto

SNP research has shown that these badges appeal to little children.
44

Edward,

21/05/2008 08:49:08
#28 S'me,Edinburgh
#29 Bob10
#33 Royster
#36 Rulesbutnotrulers,Federation, not separation
#37 Claire22
#38 The Tin Man,Over the Rainbow
#45 Jam Tarts 1874
#49 A Crofter,Western Isles
#51 Jock 1O7

All the usual suspects,perhaps the same person , who knows (somebody does)
All these unioists should really get it into there heads, that the SNP Government are trying to bring on an alternative to PPP/PFI
PPP/PFI has been shown clearly to be a complete swindle
as you would have seen in the weekends Sunday Herald (strange that there was many of you commenting in the Sunday Herald)
The proposal by the SNP Government does actually work.
Its the prefered method that the State of California uses. Its the method that the Canadian Government uses
But because its being proposed here by the SNP Government, somehow you think its wrong. But then again those above are all Labour supporters, some dont actually live in Scotland.
With the Scottish Futures Trust, like the Canadian Government and the State of California, it will be the public wallet that will benefit

45

Edward,

21/05/2008 08:52:10
#55 Jock 1O7
Yet another Labour poster, how is life in Labour these days?
You even quote the rather crap and inacurate Labour mantra, how sad
Never mind Labour will be beaten on Thursday and come the next General election they will be trounced
No amount of spin will save Labour
46

'smise,

Edinburgh 21/05/2008 09:06:27
Why is your journalism so biased? John Swinney gave a reasonable explanation of this subject to Gordon Brewer on last night's Newsnight Scotland. Other newspapers can provide a balanced view. To get some accuracy, I will check out these newspapers in the local library and change my allegiance.
47

The Tin Man,

21/05/2008 09:07:34
#46 Soumi

SFI dosn't even exist, yet, so it is a little presumtuous to state that it would be cheaper than existing mechanisms. I am not sure exactly what the difference is between PPP and SFI, anyway, excepting that one has been put into hibernation , and the other hasn't been started.
48

The Tin Man,

21/05/2008 09:09:41
#50 Thinking

Exactly... nothing will change.
49

glassbenmhor,

21/05/2008 09:12:50
There is the genuine Unionist,

these are good folks that we fact filled and enlightened really rip our hair out over,

and then,

there is the habitual Labour voter whom uses an instinct and intellect akin to an Afghan goat tied up to an old wrecked soviet tank with one leg shot off!
50

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 21/05/2008 09:13:08
The attitudes of some people towards the attempt to devise a less expensive alternative to the discredited PFI (pay for ever)is interesting.Are they suggesting that we continue to use PFI to build hospitals and schools? If so why,and if not,what do they propose as an alternative?

This topic is too serious to waste time on party political politics.I think that this article is shallow,since it does not examine the problems with PFI and the rationale for change in any depth.It is heavily loaded with comments from individuals who (for their own reasons)are oppossed to SFI,and only includes a quote from one supporter of SFI.It includes comments from opposition MSP's,but none from the government side.Most importantly,it does not contain any detailed examination of the merits of alternative ways of funding building programmes.The public need information ,not rhetoric.Irrespective of who we vote for,we can make our own conclusions,based on accurate information.In that sense this article has let the public down.
51

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 21/05/2008 09:15:22
Maybe someone can enlighten me as to the difference between the SFI proposal, and PPP? Don't they both guarantee fixed profits for the contractors? Aren't they both administered by the same people? What's teh difference? Is it the idea of cheaper loans being made available to the contractors? Please explain...
52

kimba,

21/05/2008 09:15:42
Typical salmond,all talk and no substance!
53

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 21/05/2008 09:16:50
#66 Suomi

How does SFI work? What is the plan?
54

,

21/05/2008 09:20:16
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55

glassbenmhor,

21/05/2008 09:28:16
THE LABOUR YEARS

WARS THAT CANNOT BE PAID FOR

TROOPS IN HARMS WAY DUE TO NO/LACK OF EQUIPMENT

PRESIDING OVER A CIVIL SERVICE ATTITUDE OF COULD'NT GIVE A *UCK

PFI FOR OUR CHILDREN TO PAY FOR WHILE WE ARE ROBBED

GLOBALLY UNIQUE UNDERSTANDING OF A NATIONS SOVEREIGN RIGHT TO DECIDE ITS OWN FUTURE

LEADING THE WORLD IN THE MORAL BANKRUPTCY OF ITS CORE PRINCIPAL, SOCIALISM

and we barely scratch the paint!
56

Auckland Arab2,

21/05/2008 09:29:22
PPP has been good enough for Gordon Brown for 10 years and Scottish Labour for 8! For a Labour spokesman to now cry foul is lamentable - PPP is YOUR policy.
57

Publius,

London 21/05/2008 09:30:29
#71 Tin Man.
As you suspect there is no plan. SFT is vague. There is no evidence that it will be cheaper than PFI.
PFI, SFT and all similar schemes are wrong. The flaws are obvious:
(1) The only revenue stream is the public purse. Schools, hospitals etc do not have revenue streams of their own.
(2) The taxpayer is committed to paying for PFI, SFI etc for as much as 30 years. (a) This means that the national debt rises but it does not appear on the balance sheet - an accountancy fiddle. (b) The government cannot pay the debt off early or pay off the debt with the highest interest rates first.
(3)If need changes or the buildings get out of date early, the government cannot sell them off and recover the costs.
(4) The only scope for direct private provision of public services is for services which can have their own revenue stream. Examples are student residences, toll roads and bridges, swimming pools. In all these the user pays the provider directly.
58

glassbenmhor,

21/05/2008 09:31:35
To vote for Labour in Scotland,

you need to speak to a psychiatrist.
59

glassbenmhor,

21/05/2008 09:36:42
Agreed Publius from London,

however we need 84% min. of Oil and Gas revenue to start life over,

and you to be happier in the same stroke,

will be rid of all those useless Labour Scotsmen lording it over you.

I assume we both can't wait for the happy day?
60

Arfur,

21/05/2008 09:36:45
#36 Rulesbutnotrulers - how can you not get this through your thick head?........maybe its because you back Labour and nothing of any substance has actually come to frutition from them.

A party come up with this thing called a manifesto....ok

This manifesto is what they will attempt to cover over the next 4 years......still with me?

SNP put a peldge of a referendum in 2010....i havn't lost you yet have I?

The Scottish people voted the SNP into power based on many things including that manifesto....stop banging that bone on the floor.

Just because Labour think its in their best interests for a referendum to be earlier, SNP do not need to change a thing. You like your tin pot Labour party are like little children....they wont change the date mummy!

Shove off and wait for 2010, then have your minority say.
61

glassbenmhor,

21/05/2008 09:39:18
LABOUR DINOSAURS
COMING TO A THEME PARK
NEAR YOU
62

Alan Reid,

NZ 21/05/2008 09:40:32
SO the SNP try to come up with a system that is better and all the opposion can do is try and smear, what a sad country.
63

frank mcbride,

lusitania 21/05/2008 09:42:51
PFI - Profiteering Factored In

PPP - Perfected Profiteering Plan

SFT - Saner Financial Targetting
64

glassbenmhor,

21/05/2008 09:49:21
as the tin gets rattled down Kirkcaldy high street,

folk wonder what their collecting for,

Gordon Brown's lost deposit.
65

BIG EYE,

Paisley 21/05/2008 09:51:35
Now for a reality check.

1.What the SNP are trying to do is to introduce a method of financing public projects with a cap on the level of profits that the private sector can manage. Is this wrong? Yes/NO

2. They are also trying to build an experienced central team of experts, who will look at potential building contracts and servicing contracts to ensure complete value for money for the taxpayer. Is this a bad idea? Yes/NO

3. They are doing this because they believe that the current system of PFI and PPP has resulted in massive profits for the private sector and a very poor return for the public purse. Are the wrong in thinking this YES/NO

4. They would like to do more but are restricted because Westminster is withholding powers that would allow them to issue the bonds as a Government. Should they just give up because of this London obstacle YES/NO

5. Is it realistic or reasonable to judge reaction to the plans based on comments from banks and organisations like the CBI whose members and clients have been at the forefront on the great PFI/PPP rip off and who face the prospect of the SNP scheme greatly reducing these profits? YES/NO

My answer to every question is a No and therefore, knowing that this type of scheme has been very successful elsewhere, particularly in the USA I welcome yet another example of the SNP taking action to resolve Scotland's problems.

Alex Salmond is playing a very clever game here, he knows PFI/PPP was a rip off and he knows he is guaranteed a knee jerk reaction against anything the SNP introduces from Labour and the Liberals. He also knows that at the next election he will be able to demonstrate that the Futures Trust will have delivered better value to the taxpayer than PFI/PPP.

What will Wendy's successor say then?
66

HughB,

Edinburgh 21/05/2008 09:53:22
As the money that Westminster is making from Scottish oil is increasing as the price of oil increases, then Scotland should be getting a much bigger financial settlement each year.

Forget about Barnett. That was just devised to try and show that we were getting more than England, while England is getting all our oil money.

Westminster, you had better stump up now, or the union will break up sooner than you think.
67

Doh,

21/05/2008 09:56:17
#81 Frank

I wish all the SNP supporters would drop the blinkers

PFI = PPP = SFT

Any private investor will want to make a profit on their investment regardless of what you call it.

This is just spin sadly.
68

glassbenmhor,

21/05/2008 09:58:00
What will that most independent of Kingdoms do?

It will show the rest of the nation the metal that Fifers are made of!

Because they fine well know the lies of this government,
and this government knows that the contracts for the 'Carriers' will be pulled South within 30 seconds of David Cameron arriving in Downing Street.

Des Browne can B*UGGAR-OFF
69

sonofhamish,

edinburgh 21/05/2008 09:58:47
SNP what a joke. If ever there was a point when you have to question their ability to govern it must be now. Bunch of amateurs.

70

brownlie,

21/05/2008 10:02:12
88 sonof

Just as the sun was setting over the British empire a saviour emerges out of the deepening shadows in the form of sonofhamish. Your contribution is welcome and will no doubt save our glorious union.
71

glassbenmhor,

21/05/2008 10:05:01
#84,Big Eye,

He'll say--------burp, then fall over whilst trying to grapple an old woman and policemen at the same time.

I honestly believe that Labour could at this juncture, incredibly, could promote Von the Baron Foulkes.
72

Ugly George,

edinburgh 21/05/2008 10:05:56
85 Hugh B
Have you studied any projection of North sea oil production over the coming years. The level of production has declined by more that 50% in the last few years and the decline is projected to continue.
One of the reasons for the rise in prices has been the fall in production from the North sea (including the Norwegian sector)
73

glassbenmhor,

21/05/2008 10:06:55
I cannot believe that any of the literate Unionists here could vote Labour?
74

glassbenmhor,

21/05/2008 10:10:21
#91 Ugly George,

this 50% reduction does not include the West of Shetland, and far more interestingly,

THE GREEN BANKS

I assume?
75

John PM,

Edinburgh 21/05/2008 10:11:38
The real problem was the PFI scheme which was storing up future generations of colossal debt for the taxpayer as recently exposed by an investigation by the Sunday Herald. The SNP's scheme could work and will ultimately be much better value for money despite the squawks of vested interests and papers like the Scotsman which were always going to decry it for their own purposes.
76

Alan B,

21/05/2008 10:11:39
#HughB i agree with u about th reasons for barnett. It was a way of trying to get scotland to donate most of its oil wealth away. It was actually a very nasty deception given the economic problems we had in the 70s/80s.

#BIG EYE
I think there is an issue here. Labour slag of the tories for PFI and then when in power adopt a very similar policy and rebrand it PFI. The snp have effectively done the same thing. They slagged of PPP and then will adopt a policy very similar rebranded again.

Yes labour was incompetent (if not corrupt) in writing up contracts for PPP and it was a rip off from the public purse.

Without power for the sp to be able to borrow. Then if u want to invest in capital projects at levels greater than is affordable out of the yr on yr budget u have no option to go to the private sector for finance. Abit like us getting mortgages etc.

I do think there are democractic issues at stake with governments choosing to pay off projects over a long time, in that they commit future governments to pay for projects that they would rather spend on other things. As such a balance has to be struck.

77

glassbenmhor,

21/05/2008 10:13:45
Point of Note:

It would be very interesting to know what deal has been offered to Oil Companies post Independence.

Now thats what I call the end of the Union!
78

Miss H,

21/05/2008 10:14:48
Worth re-stating what the SNP manifesto said.

We also propose a new system of infrastructure funding as an alternative to the costly and flawed PFI/PPP. Over the first term of an SNP government we will introduce a not-for-profit Scottish Futures Trust, which will provide lower cost borrowing opportunities. We expect the Scottish Futures Trust to emerge as a more attractive source of funding for both national and local projects which will effectively crowd out PFI/PPP over time. Current PFI/PPP contracts will be unaffected and it will be open to local authorities and other public bodies to choose between PFI/PPP and Scottish Futures Bonds for planned and future projects. In particular, we will match brick for brick current plans for improvements in our schools and hospitals.

What is interesting here is the attitude of the unions. They hate PFI/PPP but you still see union leaders attacking the SNP for putting forward the only real alternative possible within the constraints of devolution.

In an independent Scotland things would of course be different. But Unison is against independence.

This argument is just going to run and run and I think we can all guess where it is headed..

As for Labour, the political stupidity of positioning themselves as the champions of PPP/PFI defies belief. It is Labour supporters who are most opposed to it. Madness still reigns!

79

glassbenmhor,

21/05/2008 10:17:55
Say what you like, three cheers to the Scotsman,

for free DEBATE
80

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/05/2008 10:19:38
84 glasbenmhor
The 50% reduction is the reduction in total production including the fields west of Shetland.

Total production of oil (as opposed to gas) reached 2.9m barrels/day in 1999/2000. The latest month for which figures are available (Jan 2008)shows production of 1.36m Barrels/day.
81

The Tin Man,

21/05/2008 10:22:31
Now for a reality check.

1.What the SNP are trying to do is to introduce a method of financing public projects with a cap on the level of profits that the private sector can manage. Is this wrong? Yes/NO

This is also done with PPP.

2. They are also trying to build an experienced central team of experts, who will look at potential building contracts and servicing contracts to ensure complete value for money for the taxpayer. Is this a bad idea? Yes/NO

Good luck to them, will these people be in addition to the people who currently negociate and administer contracts?

3. They are doing this because they believe that the current system of PFI and PPP has resulted in massive profits for the private sector and a very poor return for the public purse. Are the wrong in thinking this YES/NO

Some PPPs delived good value, others don't - see 1. & 2.

4. They would like to do more but are restricted because Westminster is withholding powers that would allow them to issue the bonds as a Government. Should they just give up because of this London obstacle YES/NO

Read the article.

5. Is it realistic or reasonable to judge reaction to the plans based on comments from banks and organisations like the CBI whose members and clients have been at the forefront on the great PFI/PPP rip off and who face the prospect of the SNP scheme greatly reducing these profits? YES/NO

See 1.

My answer to every question is a No and therefore, knowing that this type of scheme has been very successful elsewhere, particularly in the USA I welcome yet another example of the SNP taking action to resolve Scotland's problems.

I vote for the SNP, however, you merely rubber-stamp them.

Alex Salmond is playing a very clever game here, he knows PFI/PPP was a rip off and he knows he is guaranteed a knee jerk reaction against anything the SNP introduces from Labour and the Liberals. He also knows that at the next election he will be able to demonstrate that the Futures Tr
82

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 21/05/2008 10:22:55
I applaud the SNP for its radical thinking. Its idea is doomed to fail but at least it had an idea.
83

Alan B,

21/05/2008 10:23:11
#Miss H

I agree with u regarding the constraints of devolution, as it prevents the scottish government from borrowing.

However

"Over the first term of an SNP government we will introduce a not-for-profit Scottish Futures Trust"

Quite simply the snp plan is to get finance from the private sector. The private sector will not lend without making a profit. As such the quote u put above will be false.

From what i gathered from John Swinney on newsnight last night he was talking about a model where it would prevent windfall profits. Not that there would be not profits for the private sector.

84

W U Merchant,

21/05/2008 10:24:40
102

TTM, so many words, so little substance. As Alex's neocon pals say, "stick to the knitting".

85

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 21/05/2008 10:25:49
Tinman #71 your question reflects my critique of this article.My point was that instead of quotes from a very selective list of individuals the public needed a detailed analysis of the limitation and benefits of alternative approaches to building schools and hospitals.
By the way,I noticed that earlier you had misrepresented something that I had said,possibly because of a typographic error.I did not say that SFI would be cheaper or result in better project management.What I actually said was,"If SFI is cheaper and results in better project management....." I was reflecting on the claim by Professor Kay (London School of Economics) that SFI could achieve that outcome.My concern about this article is that the claim of one Professor is buried among rhetoric and quotes from individuals who are against SFI.The aricle reminded me of the past working life when colleagues knew what the problems were but didn't offer any solutions.The public deserve a better analysis of the topic than this newspaper offers us today.
86

glassbenmhor,

21/05/2008 10:27:18
Unison mmmh,

a bi-polar dinosaur,

chiefs opposing Independence, for political Labour cronyism,

the rest,

a body with the heart of a Lion,

that at the next election will beat INDEPENDENTLY
87

antifa,

21/05/2008 10:30:35
The SFT is not an alternative to PPPs; rather, it is a centralised body that will co-ordinate the delivery of PPPs.

However, the PPPs that go ahead will now be of the NPD variety - which is sometimes wrongly referred to as a "not for profit" model. It is anything but.

The NPD model was introduced by Labour (e.g. for the Argyll and Bute schools scheme) and is just as flawed as PFI proper. Under NPD, the 1% of financing which is sourced via equity in PFI is replaced with junior debt. So the move from PFI to NPD applies to just 1% of the finance.

Swinney's claim that this is something radically different is nonsense.

Overall, financing costs under NPD are likely to be a little higher, since there is now no equity "risk buffer" so rates for the junior debt (which accounts for about 10% of the total financing) will be higher.

JohnPM said: "The real problem was the PFI scheme which was storing up future generations of colossal debt for the taxpayer."

Unfortunately, that problem will not be addressed in any way by NPDs.
88

glassbenmhor,

21/05/2008 10:32:16
The Independent Scottish Labour Party

"it's coming yet for a' that"
89

Jings Crivens,

21/05/2008 10:33:16
60 Edward,

Sorry to disappoint you Eddie but I’m not a labour support just someone who can see through the SNP lies, hypocrisy and broken manifesto pledges. Unlike yourself who blindly accepts the SNP line without criticism and can’t accept anyone else with an opposing view

I wonder what kind of supporter you will be in 3 years time when like any government the SNP will be mired in corruption, poor short term decision making, etc. Will you:

¦ Still be blindly chanting the party line
¦ Jumping ship to someone other party
¦ Actively criticising and wanting change

Time will tell but in the meantime enjoy your blinkered and rose tinted views
90

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 21/05/2008 10:33:22
This appears to me to be a solution for all of this planet's (and perhaps even other planets') economic problems. Why has nobody thought of this before? A masterpiece.
91

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 21/05/2008 10:47:22
QUOTE: "But a senior Cosla source told The Scotsman that as things stand the SFT proposal is "a joke" and it is unlikely that councils will be rushing to support the bonds issue."

Was that senior COSLA spokesman or senior Scotsman spokesman....or perhaps it was one of the cleaners at COSLA HQ?

Yet more negativity from Labour and it's Unionist allies at the Hootsman.

SFT is a new concept, an evolving concept, relax. This Government has done very well up to now and there is no reason to suspect that one of their major policies will fall flat on its face but even if it did it wouldn't be the first initiative to fail.

We could find examples from every corner of industry where new concepts haven't worked as well as first hoped and had to be abandoned. Meanwhile let's give this one a chance and see what happens.

People at least see that the SNP Government is trying and for that alone they will continue to gain support.
92

bill-alba,

fife 21/05/2008 10:51:02
#110 "you are NOT a labour supporter" you then go on to prove that you actually are a labour supporter with your little inconsidered rant against the SNP who have done wonders in the first year, you also slip your unionist logic by tarring the SNP with your unionist brush of corruption your blinkered view of the SNP and propably tinted view of the past tory/lib/lab governments is on view to all.
93

bill-alba,

fife 21/05/2008 10:55:41
rules... The SNP need a referendum to justify their policies... I didnt see any other party getting voted into government then having a referendum to allow them to govern, however, we will have a referendum in 2010 as you have been informed countless times. as for a federation it is neither practical or even a second best alternative to independence with is really the only way to go. Lets jump from the frying pan to the fire as the frying pan obvioulsly doesnt work.
94

antifa,

21/05/2008 10:55:44
Brian Hill - the point is that this is not a major policy. It's a small tinkering with existing policy - a policy the SNP used to oppose. It is essentially a political move and is likely to lead to delays to capital investment and more expensive projects.

Further, it is a sleight of hand that will confuse the public. This message board proves it: we have people saying they hate PPP and they like the SNP's new policy - but the SNP's new policy is to continue with PPP.

It's a shame really. I think the SNP started out with good intentions but are constrained by Whitehall rules, and basically have to carry on with the PFI method or go without investment (which is what will happen until the SFT is up and running).
95

mr angry,

ayrshire 21/05/2008 10:57:49
#86 You dumpling , the whole point is to limit the amount of profit. Everybody knows that the private companies have to make some return on their money , the point is to limit it , re recent Herald story where they invest a few hundred pounds equity and get 60+ million profit.
For all the idiots out there, is it better to try and do an improved , limited cost version called SFT , or continue to pour unlimited money into PFI/PPP which ahs been proven to be useless. Until we have independence and ability to function as a real country , Westminster will not allow anything else.
Fit Labour better to be lobbying Westminster to allow us to put in place a proper system but that is unlikely as Brown will slap them down as per usual.
96

,

21/05/2008 11:01:45
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97

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 21/05/2008 11:04:02
114

bill-alba, the SNP have done well in the first year but "done wonders"? An overstatement, perhaps?
98

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 21/05/2008 11:05:13
I am delighted that the SNP have identified lenders who will lend at zero interest. Well done.
99

brownlie,

21/05/2008 11:06:03
118 AM

Good morning, AM

So you're not like our Wendy then?
100

john z,

edinburgh 21/05/2008 11:07:32
Of course, if Scotland controlled its own destiny, rather than by begging for money from London, this wouldn't be needed.

As was correctly pointed out in the Sunday Telegraph, and elsewhere, an independent Scotland would have somewhere in the region of a 6 billion pound surplus per year (nearly a fifth of its current budget of 33 billion), and would not need to borrow.

Of course this will never happen, as the English economy would lose a significant degree of stability without Scottish oil revenues, and so as Gordon Brown says, he'll use everything he can to stop Scottish independence.

I do find it laughable, that labour are criticising the Scottish Government for trying to rectify the unfair, corrupt, pigswill of an idea called PFI.

The SNP government are trying to improve things. Unlike the labour minority in the parliament.
101

Alan B,

21/05/2008 11:07:38
#mr angry

I think the point is conceptually the future trust is the same as pfi/ppp. what the snp are rightly trying to do is make sure that the public get value for money. there is nothing wrong with that. The problem is more that the snp appeared to be against ppp conceptually will in opposition.

Miss H who speak for the snp said they aimed "Over the first term of an SNP government we will introduce a not-for-profit Scottish Futures Trust,"

this is clearly not the case.

what u say "the whole point is to limit the amount of profit"

is correct and admirable.
102

antifa,

21/05/2008 11:12:40
"For all the idiots out there, is it better to try and do an improved , limited cost version called SFT , or continue to pour unlimited money into PFI/PPP which ahs been proven to be useless."

This is no more a limited cost model than is PFI. What you mean is that returns to investors are limited but they aren't - it's just that they are identified in a more transparent way when contracts are signed. Their limits will be determined by the PFI market, which is defective.

And as I've explained, there are structural reasons why finance costs may actually increase under the NPD model.

Of course it is better to try and improve on PFI, but this is a relatively minor variation and therefore any improvement will be small-scale. Given the costs of PFI, we need more than just a minor reform. This is a mess to be honest.
103

Alan B,

21/05/2008 11:13:35
#Rulesbutnotrulers

Exactly what do u propose.

Do u propose fiscal autonomy within ur federal model. to allow scotland the freedom to address it economic problems and cronic low growth?

Do u propose dev max? Allowing scotland to control energy (nuclear and electricy regulation and transmission), all law and order issues (firearms, ID cards, drugs, number of days detention), regulations like whether to have super casinos etc, social security, transport (eg like controlling trains, currently the sp has not power to control the structure ie track) etc

what powers exactly do u want shared? And why?

For instance under ur model, would scotland have the right to adopt the euro if judged by the sp to be in our interests even if england was to remain with sterling?
104

subrosa,

21/05/2008 11:20:45
# 112 'Why divorce before you've exhausted all other ways of cohabitation?'

Every avenue is already exhausted. In a good 'marriage' both partners need to be equal and more important, feel equal. The Scots are realising they are certainly not feeling equal and now asking why.

I'm not going to list the endless cons the Westminster governments have carried out over the years to keep Scotland down. Many informed have done so on these forums and unionists have been unable to defend them.

Aren't you slightly ashamed now that the PFI/PPP negatives have been exposed? Not one unionist has offered an alternative to the current SNP proposal other than personal insults.

Aren't you pleased SFT will save public money? Obviously not. The main difference from PFI seems to be that projects will remain public property instead of being owned by the private sector, who then proceed to rip off the public purse. A local PFI school was charged £312 for changing a low voltage light recently. Is that value for money? Of course, back in the 'old days' janitors would have done that without hesitation but we don't have jannies anymore.

Anything that is an improvement is better than doing nothing. But of course unionists want to do exactly that - nothing. The status quo is their preference because they don't want to better Scotland - either out of laziness or pure bl**** mindedness.

105

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/05/2008 11:28:59
There are two issues here - how are public projects to be paid for and how are monies raised to be spent. Much of this debate has concentrated on the first argument but completely ignored the second issue. The sad truth is that development after development in the public sector, be it PFI or wholly-public, have been bloody awful at providing good value for money.

For me the biggest issue is the poor control and accountability that accompanies many of these projects - most overspend; most arrive late; most still don't deliver what is asked for. The argument about choosing between PFI and SFT is irrelevant whilst public projects continue to be run by piss-poor managers.

I wouldn't touch any wholly public sector project with a barge pole - and I say that as a public sector worker.

There is a whole list of previous public sector projects that have gone way over budget.

How about the Jubilee Line - almost two years late and £1.4 billion over budget.

Or the Scottish Parliament - £349 million over budget.

Or GCHQ - £550 million over budget.

Or the Trident submarine berth - £214 million over budget.

Or the Natonal Air Traffic Control Centre - £180 million over budget.

Or the British Library - £60 million over budget.

Or Guy's Hospital - £124 million over budget.

And that's just some of the building projects - I could go on for ever with IT and Defence procurement projects that have been way under-costed.

I know in some cases that private contractors were responsible for over-runs - but in many cases these were entirely the fault of those in the public sector who underestimated costs in the first place.

(to be continued)
106

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/05/2008 11:33:32
(continued)

My big worry with the SFT is how we actually get value from the resources raised. I can see the situation arising where bonds are isused and then the projects over-run thus requiring more government monies or further bond issues - with the taxpayer losing out yet again.

The problem with this debate is that it is based on accusations/defences from both sides about the value for money that PFI has. Many of these arguments are back of an envelope calculations with no real analysis carried out. Before any change is carried out I'd like to see:

* An independent appraisal of the value for money delivered by PFI and PPP projects

* An independent appraisal of the procedures for managing and controlling public sector projects

* An independent appraisal of the value for money of alternatives to PFI and PPP

No-one knows in truth what the real cost and value of PFI and PPP projects is.

And that includes supporters of PFI and PPP.

Any research that has been carried out has to make assumptions because they don't have the full information even after a Freedom of Information request.

An independent appraisal may not be a bad thing - if the SNP are confident about their figures then PFI/PPP should be shown as not gving value for money - more ammunition for their case one would think.

If they are going to bring in SFT at least make sure the figures add up and that it will work. A short delay won't be calamitous - despite what Labour and the other opposition parties say.

Ultimately the main failing is in those in the public sector who commission and 'manage' these projects and the way acceptable baselines are established.

That for me is the key issue - irrespective how the finances are raised it is how they are spent that is the problem. As with LIT - we all get worked up about how local government finance is raised when the real issue is the piss-poor value we get from our public services locally and nationally.
107

Edward,

21/05/2008 11:46:06
#110 Jings Crivens
You might not be a Labour/Unionist (Some how I doubt it!)
But I am , or was a Labour supporter and actually an activist (upto when Tony Blair sold the Labour ideal)
Ive never supported the SNP, but this will change as Im fed up with the continual lies and deceipt of Labour
Labour are now no better than the Tories. I will support the SNP, if it means getting an Independent Scotland that will facilitate the Labour party in Scotland back to its socialist roots
Perhaps its you who should take of your rose tinted specs and take a long hard look at what Labour are doing to the UK in general and Scotland specifically
For a start have a think about why Labour have kept promising to reduce poverty for the last 50 years (yes they have had perpetual governance in Scotland that long), yet we still have poverty. Why they have continually promised to improve class sizes, both prior to and after 1999, but didnt do that. How Scotland's population has remained static for the last 50 odd years as people leave the country due to lack of prospects (compared with other countries in europe, it is the only one that has either reduced in population size or remained static)
You may disagree, but you really should have a long hard look at how Labour have failed Scotland
108

Alan B,

21/05/2008 12:01:28
#The Federalist

I agree with much what u say. I think part of the problem with PPP was that the details were hidden. Rather than publish the details of contracts we kept hearing about comercial confidentiality. But after a contract is granted it should be in the public domain what the terms and conditions are to allow public scrutiny.

There is also the smell of corruption. How many ministers get jobs with companies they maybe favoured in office. How many companies take ex ministers or senior party figures on to help secure contracts with governments. I am not saying there is corruption in all cases but there is a smell. eg kinnock on the pay roll of the company that ran the scottish election. etc. How many companies that secure contracts have people linked to there companies giving money to that political party. eg Wendies dodgy donor, building contracts and glasgow council.




109

frank mcbride,

lusitania 21/05/2008 12:03:19
#86, Doh.

Your reply to my suggestions would imply that you approve of usary.

Any attempt to rein in the obscene profits generated by PFI/PPP should be applauded. This, I believe, is exactly what the SNP is trying to do.
However, given the constraints of the Union, this is all they can do.

Given the track record of the SNP Government:

FOR A FAIRER AND MORE PROSPEROUS SCOTLAND: VOTE SNP.
110

conservative,

Fife 21/05/2008 12:03:35
Look! Look!!
The SNP emperor has no clothes!
111

,

21/05/2008 12:21:32
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112

,

21/05/2008 12:43:18
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113

Calum Crubag,

21/05/2008 12:43:25
What, NO report on the new North Sea oil field that's just opened? When new oil fields are still being discovered, do we want Scotland's oil wealth going to London?

Simple choice - oil profits in Scotland spent on public services, schools, transport or our money in London spent on Iraq, nuke weapons and well-appointed second homes for corrupt MPs?
114

Arfur,

21/05/2008 12:43:37
#112 Rulesbutnotrulers - "Why divorce before you've exhausted all other ways of cohabitation?"

Well, if your wife/partner had (1) lied to you, used you for experiments/dump (2), looked down on you (constantly) (3), stolen from you (4) and will not let you have your say (5)

(1) Scotland's oil will run out in 20 years (in the 70's)......Scottish tax bills will go up by £5000......Scotland can not sustain its self......Scotland is subsidised by England.....and on and on and on etc etc etc

(2) Pole tax...Trident, nuff said

(3) The political nonsense that has gone on for years

(4) Give Scotland a budget less than what is made in Oil alone. (what about the rest) then have the bare faced cheek to say that we are subsidised by them.

(5) No party allowing a referendum for the Scottish people until it becomes clear that the only chance they have of winning it is to get it in as soon as possible.

Would you say with her?

Actually don't answer it...I know the answer.

Well I guess the world needs walk over's to.
115

Electric Hermit,

21/05/2008 12:45:16
What is all the fuss about? The Scottish government is doing exactly what was set out in its manifesto. It is doing what is possible within the constraints of the current constitutional arrangements and their own parliamentary circumstances. The result may not be any kind of "perfect solution". But it is as unrealistic to expect such a thing as it would be irresponsible to promise it.

Politics is all about compromise. And, all things considered, SFT looks like a reasonable way forward. If the unionists are concerned about funding delays then they should stop playing petty, point-scoring politics and cooperate with the government on this.
116

Arfur,

21/05/2008 12:45:35
#140 should be - stay with her
117

kimba,

21/05/2008 13:08:16
glassbenmhor.Sorry to have to burst your "independence"bubble,if any of the uk party leaders agreed to a independent scotland (not a cat in hells chance)it would take over 2,000 bills that westminster would have to pass,guess how long that would take?
118

Jings Crivens,

21/05/2008 13:10:26
131 Edward

Your argument is all over the place one minute you’re for labour values then independence then socialism. Socialism is not something the electorate want, just look at labour in the 1980s under Michael Foot and what happened to Tommy Sheridan various political parties.

All political parties fail to deliver on their promises either because they found out they couldn’t deliver them because the money wasn’t there; they hadn’t any idea how they could deliver them or just lied. Eventually they get found out and have to go. The point I am making is that SNP are now making the same journey. They are breaking their manifesto promises either because they lied to the electorate or just don’t have the nouse on how to deliver them.

You arealso incorrect about labour being in power in Scotland for the last 50 years as, until Thatcher came to power, a large number of Scottish MP and councils were conservatives (old school) and the Government in London has been primarily Conservative for most of that period also.

Static population what’s that got to do with anything, I could argue that because people are well off they don’t have kids because they are having such a good time with excellent career prospect (which is a common fact across the UK)

Poverty is still here and better people than you and I have tried to solve the problem and failed so what chance do we have.
119

The Strategist,

21/05/2008 13:13:39
During PMQs today the toady LibDim MP Malcolm Bruce asked Broon about this issue providing El Gordo with the opportunity for a rant against the SNP...

Bruce the abyssmal said something about it all causing a delay to the Aberdeen bypass which is a bit bizarre cos it's already about 30 years too late..
120

kimba,

21/05/2008 13:14:42
Arfur. Scotland pays the uk treasury 6.4 billion pounds in taxes plus a further 2.2 billion in oil revenue a grand total of £8.6 billion,the uk treasury gives scotland £28 billion back. END OF STORY!
121

Alan B,

21/05/2008 13:23:51
#kimba

The latest investigation into scotlands fiscal position showed that scotland would be in surplus to the tune of over £6 billion. ie we pay £6 billion more than we get back in one single yr.


ur the weirdest english nationalist. rather than being glad scotland might go its own way leaving england to its own devices u try to make up stories to try to convince scotland to stay within the union.
122

Deekie fae Midstocket,

Aberdeen 21/05/2008 13:33:46
£333 billion and counting. Just what will it take for sad, blinkered unionist Quislings to realise that we ain't poor. If you cannot accept the economic case for Independence, then how about national self-respect? Face it, England would go down the pan without Scotland's billions, yet you greet that Scotland is dependent on London's largesse and whine that the Scots-alone in the world- are incapable of running their own affairs. Get a life and crige no more!
123

kimba,

21/05/2008 13:36:48
148.As the Scottish National party extends its opinion poll lead over Labour the broad picture is uncontested. More than £20 billion of Treasury funds come to Scotland from Whitehall each year, providing total public spending per Scot of £8,265. Scotland’s net deficit, that is spending that benefits Scots but is not raised in Scotland, amounts to 13% of gross domestic product (GDP), more than four times the figure for the UK as a whole.

One recent calculation estimates that just 163,000 Scottish taxpayers, from a population of 5m, make any net contribution to the British exchequer. The rest receive more than they pay out in reliefs, subsidies and benefits. COURTESY OF TIMES ONLINE.
124

kimba,

21/05/2008 13:46:05
148.I believe England should have it's own parliament,but that does not mean a break up of the union.
125

kimba,

21/05/2008 13:47:54
149.To have any hope of creating the thriving independent economy of which they dream, an SNP government would have to impose economic policies Scotland has rejected at every election since 1945 and which the party dare not even propose.

Forget oil. If Scotland wants autonomy it will afford it only by learning to love enterprise. But the Scottish Conservatives send just one MP to Westminster and the national ambition is to secure a safe job in the public sector. Dream on, Mr Salmond. TIMES ONLINE.
126

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 21/05/2008 13:48:18
#71 rules etc states that the SNP are not interested in the interests of the Scottish people.I would ask which Scottish people? The SNP aim of independence does reflect the interest of their members,many of their voters,and even some people who vote for other parties.Of course I take the point that there are alternative views.While those alternative views are not the first preference for Alec Salmond,he has shown great flexibility in his willingness to accept a multi-option referendum.I think that the SNP deserves great credit for that.
127

Alan B,

21/05/2008 13:48:54
#150

From the times an analysis showing scotland in surplus. ie we pay more than we get back. the 4.4 billion surplus is based on only 85% oil. A truer figurer would be 95% and as u will see from further down the article that would give scotland a surplus of £6 billion.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/natural_resources/article3954031.ece

of course scottish spending currently comes from westminster cause all scottish taxes are taken to westminster and then we get money back. problem is we get back less than we put in.

Another example.
back in the 90s an snp question to the tory treasury asking about scotland fiscal position. the tory treasury answer was that scotland had subsidised england to the tune of £27 billion over a period from if i remember correctly 79 to 95. That was roughly like scotland donating 1/3 of all income tax to england just as a wee pressie.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/politics97/forum/answers.shtml

(the fig were based on 90% oil revenue for scotland).
128

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 21/05/2008 13:49:37
#141 Electric Hermit

The fuss is about the executive taking one year to come up with a public-spending funding plan that is not even finalised. It is certainly not a "perfect solution" - at the moment it isn't anything apart from a vague idea which, apparently, is going to be implemented in a couple of months. In turn, large projects could be delayed, because no-one knows how they are going to be funded.
129

kimba,

21/05/2008 13:54:13
155.Scotland is not just dependent on the UK state; it is state-dependent full stop. A full 50% of Scottish GDP is spent by government. The state employs one Scot in four. Red Clydeside and the once communist coalfields of Fife have shed their shipyards and pits but the class warrior instinct continues to motivate the electorate. Even affluent Scots professionals, with expensive homes in genteel districts such as Edinburgh’s Morningside and Glasgow’s West End, describe themselves as “working class”.TIMES ONLINE
130

Electric Hermit,

21/05/2008 13:56:23
#151
Rulesbutnotrulers
The fact that SNP doesn't want us to consider the federal option...

------------

What the hell do you imagine the National Conversation is all about!? The only rigid stipulation is that "...sovereignty lies with the people, and it is the people of Scotland alone who have the right to decide how they are governed".

That a "con/federal" solution (Whatever that might be!) is not included in the three "principal choices" can only be because no such proposal has been advanced. The National Conversation is your opportunity to do just that. So why not stop whining and get on with it?

Once people know exactly what it is that you are suggesting I haven't the slightest doubt that you will get all the debate you could possibly wish for.
131

Alan B,

21/05/2008 13:57:41
#Rulesbutnotrulers

Is it that difficult to answer a simple question?

u argue for federalism. fair enough. i can understand some advantages.

u ask people to go down this route. but u do not seem to have a clue what model u would have not can u articulate what these advantages would be.

at the end of the day we currently have a federal model. ie a central parliament and a regional parliament (based on national line). so if u want to convince anyone of the merits of federalism u have to try explain what u mean, rather than throwing a tantrum and ranting about the snp.

132

LEAL,

21/05/2008 13:58:03
After years of Labour govt at westminster and generations of Labour dominating Scotlandwe now have a Holyrood govt that is trying,with no support from the unionists,to do the best for Scotland.All the unionists ever come up with is negative criticism of everything the govt tries to do.Do they not realise that the people expect far more of the opposition than they are currently getting,which is just a regurgitation of Westminster.
133

,

21/05/2008 13:58:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
134

Miss H,

21/05/2008 14:02:39
Federalism in principle sounds OK but it would not work. We would have to imagine a situation where Scotland had more or less full fiscal autonomy but paid the UK Government for services provided on a UK wide basis. Think about what that would be – the chief of them would be defence. So you would have a situation where Scotland could still have nuclear weapons based here against the wishes of the majority of parliamentarians or still be committed to a war which the majority did nit agree with. Unless you can find some way around that it’s not going to work. Neither would it work having Scotland continuing to be represented in the EU and other bodies by the UK. It is those kinds of issues which are driving the movement towards more autonomy. Rather than look at it in terms of what power the UK refuses to give up we should look at it in terms of what powers or functions Scotland and the rest of the UK can share which work to the advantage of both countries. There could be a whole range of things that come under that heading but not I would suggest basic issues of sovereignty.

You have to remember that we will be functioning in a context where greater integration and cooperation is the norm within the EU. We could also look at the Nordic Council as a model. There already is a British-Irish Council which could easily serve the same purpose.
135

Alan B,

21/05/2008 14:03:22
#kimba

The 50% figure has already been exposed as a lie. this figure is based on scotland not having any oil.

u post #157 seems to acknowledge that scotland is and has had cronic surplus, by the fact u cannot challenge these figures but try to change topic to whether scotland has high levels of expenditure. A topic important in itself by completely irrelevent to the fact that scotland has subsidised the rest of the uk for long periods over the last 30 yrs.

136

Electric Hermit,

21/05/2008 14:06:38
#156
The Tin Man
...a public-spending funding plan that is not even finalised....
In turn, large projects could be delayed, because no-one knows how they are going to be funded.

-----------

If SFT is to be truly at arm's length from government then there is no way that every detail of its methods and priorities could be "finalised". The whole idea is to have people with relevant expertise making the decision. It simply would make no sense for the government to impose constraints at this early stage.

And there is nothing to stop projects going ahead. Existing financing procedures remain in place. As the SNP manifesto states,

"Current PFI/PPP contracts will be unaffected and it will be open to local authorities and other public bodies to choose between PFI/PPP and Scottish Futures Bonds for planned and future projects."

So! The question remains. What the hell is all the fuss about?
137

Alan B,

21/05/2008 14:07:56
#162 Miss H

I think federalism could work, it is just not our preferred option.

A devolved model of federalism where scotland has full fiscal autonomy with only currency, foreign affairs, defence and eu membership pulled would work and have many advantages over the current model.

But as u say the disadvantages would be that we would not :
1)be able to represent our own interests in the EU.
2)be able to join the euro (although that could be possible under a federal model).
3)the preceived wisdon is scotlands views on defence issues are different from the uk ie nuclear.



138

Alan B,

21/05/2008 14:09:06
#165

cont..

a confederal model would mean we would technically be independent and sovereign but a member of a uk union like the way countries are to the EU.
139

Jings Crivens,

21/05/2008 14:13:01
149 Deekie fae Midstocket

Mindless SNP guff
140

The Tin Man,

21/05/2008 14:27:59
#164 Electric Hermit

Yes, you are right. I read the story once again, and it looks like the 'funding' bit of SFT is being quietly dropped. It just sounds like they plan to allow a bunch of civil sevants from the Scottish Office to change their job-titles and have even less accountability then they already do.
141

Electric Hermit,

21/05/2008 14:33:12
#168 The Tin Man

You are to be congratulated on your creative reading abilities.
142

A Clamper,

Edinburgh 21/05/2008 14:36:42
Time for Independence.
143

Patrick O'Reilly,

Coatbridge 21/05/2008 14:37:49
If Alex Salmond does indeed have a degree in Economics, how the heck have the SNP managed to come up with this daft idea? It cannot work.
144

kimba,

21/05/2008 14:38:26
163. ARE YOU DENSE! Even Alex Salmond, the SNP leader, admits that Scotland has the highest unemployment, the highest proportion of income support claimants and the lowest business survival rate in Britain. and you have a surplus,yeah right!
145

,

21/05/2008 14:38:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
146

,

21/05/2008 14:40:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
147

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 21/05/2008 14:42:11
#169 Electric Hermit

Thank you. So who is going to staff the offices of the SFT?
148

Alan B,

21/05/2008 14:46:23
#kimba

u would think with all that money we have sent south they could have improved the education system. Arithmetic is obviously not ur strong point. If we send more to westmister than we received then that is a surplus ie we are subsidising the rest of the uk.


did u actually read the url link from the times showing a 4.4 billion surplus is based on only 85% oil. And the surplus of £6 billion based on the more accurate figure of 95% oil wealth coming to scotland.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/natural_resources/article3954031.ece

a simple thanks for all that money we donate to u would be appreciated.
149

The Master,

21/05/2008 14:47:29
#173 Candyman 3: I’m a big horror movie fan as well: what did you make of the most recent Alien vs Predator? AM2’s been chasing you all over the forum with all the zeal of Freddy Krueger, by the way! You can reveal that I'm registered as "Alan Brown" if you like, by the way: the Master's details are completely independent from those of his creator.
150

frank mcbride,

lusitania 21/05/2008 14:47:42
#138, sideshow bob.

Your intelligence is certainly not evident in your posts.

FYI, the response at #136 refers to the Little Dutch Boy as a rebuttal of the allusion to The Emporer's New Clothes.

Obviously you haven't got past Reading Book A.
151

kimba,

21/05/2008 14:50:53
176. Nothing wrong with my maths,Scotland pays the uk treasury 6.4 billion pounds in taxes plus a further 2.2 billion in oil revenue a grand total of £8.6 billion,the uk treasury gives scotland £28 billion back. END OF STORY!
152

,

21/05/2008 14:59:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
153

brownlie,

21/05/2008 15:00:08
179 kimba

As a unionist a question I am always asked is this - If Scotland is such a drain on our resources why are us unionists prepared to go to any length to hang onto Scotland?

Perhaps you can help me out?

Another question I am always asked is - Why are we a United Kingdom when we have not had a king since before I was born?
154

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 21/05/2008 15:03:38
The only growth industry in Scotland at the moment is the expansion in the army of Braveheart apologists who come on threads like this to denounce and abuse anyone who dares to point out the obvious flaws in the latest Gnat wizard wheeze (in this case SFI).

There really is no point in arguing with them, their standard and inevitable reponse will simply be a variation on "Alex gooood, Unionists baaaad".

The Gnats' sums don't add up. Never have. Never will. They are not interested in detail, theirs is just a cheap emotional appeal based on anti-Englishness and a big chip on each shoulder. But in the real world, it really is the economy, stupid. God help us all if Swinney with his abacus ever gets the keys to the real safe. Will the last refugee to cross the border please switch Scotland off?
155

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/05/2008 15:05:43
#179 kimba living in la-la land again............
156

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 21/05/2008 15:05:59
Master#161 ,if all you are about is rhetoric and a lack of willingness to examine the evidence and alternative views,you are not going to achieve anything.We all have our opinions but this forum is an opportunity to examine the evidence that supports our assumptions.My earlier posting (#154) was aimed at those who are willing to be refelective.To remind those who are undecides:
1)The SNP's aim of independence is shared by their members, many of their voters,and many people who vote for other parties.This is well established through numerous public surveys.I made this point in order to challenge the allegation made by one contributor that the SNP are not interested in the Scottish people.Even if they were not interested in all of the Scottish people,the fact that independence is the will of many Scottish people,must mean that they represent some of them.I think this is true of all parties.Supporters of the union,need to remember that not all of the Scottish people support the aim of Labour,Liberal and Conservative parties to preserve the union in its current form.
2) It is self evident that Alec Salmond is willing to consider the views of those who do not currently support independence,since he has proposed a multi-option referendum,and the national conversation embraces all shades of opinion.It is a pity that some people on this forum cannot listen actively to all opinions.
I wouldn't worry to much about the result iof the referndum.I have been there before in the 1979 Devolution referendum.We cannot know what the next generation will want,but we do know that change is certain.
157

Alan B,

21/05/2008 15:06:30
#kimba

Where do u get 2.2 billion in oil revenue.

As simple google

That's based on Aberdeen University's calculations of Scotland's share of North Sea oil revenues of £9.2bn for 2005-6.

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/world/do%20the%20scots%20subsidise%20the%20english/166260
158

Alan B,

21/05/2008 15:10:18
#Kimba

Again where do u get 2.2 billion in oil revenue.

"But when £12.2billion of oil and gas revenues are included, Scotland would have a surplus of more than £4billion."

http://manaboutthehouse.wordpress.com/2008/05/18/460/
159

Chris42,

21/05/2008 15:23:02
Alan B
Thanks for your reply yesterday about full fiscal autonomy under dev max. I dont have any extensive knowledge of economics or politics but my interest in the Independence issue has been aroused recently thanks to Ms Alexander.
Much as I like the idea of Scotland retaining all of it's tax revenues, including oil, it just does not seem realistic that this would be conceded by any westminster govt, given how important Scotland's net contribution is to the UK economy. Isn't this just wishful thinking on your part?
160

The Master,

21/05/2008 15:27:49
#184 Suomi: forgive me, but you’re beginning to sound like David Irving defending his right to a fair hearing (not that I’m implying that you condone his views in any way).

1) Independence may be supported by a proportion of the population (about 23% in many surveys), but one would have thought that this would manifest itself in a pressure group rather than a political party which seeks to piggyback independence on the back of populist non independence related policies.

2) Agreed that Alex should be commended for proposing a multi option question: I just object to the legalistic and confusing independence question (which I know has been forced on him because the SP can only legally “consult”). I also object to his proposal to use STV to decide such a fundamentally important constitutional question: this electoral system may be appropriate for a national parliament, but not for the unequivocal result which everyone wants from a separation referendum.

I’m what you Nats call an “ultra unionist”, not that I like the label “unionist”, but I hope you can now see that I’m a reasoned and grounded poster on this forum.
161

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 21/05/2008 15:35:04
#184 - "It is self evident that Alec Salmond is willing to consider the views of those who do not currently support independence"

It is at least as self-evident that the Smug One does not even tolerate dissent in his own Party, far less in the rest of Scotland. A separate Scotland under Salmond will be a very intolerant place indeed, and Unionists or others who oppose the Gnat orthodoxy had better seek their livelihood elsewhere, especially if they currently work in the Public Sector. Expect to see some Scottish form of Beruftsverbote after separation.

"he has proposed a multi-option referendum,and the national conversation embraces all shades of opinion"

He knows that a multi-choice referendum is the most likely device to deliver a win for separation by splitting the anti-separation vote. The national conversation is simply a rolling Gnat Party Political Broadcast paid for out of the Scottish Government's coffers.

"It is a pity that some people on this forum cannot listen actively to all opinions"

I agree. The moment any Unionist on here expresses an opinion, the Gnat apologists immediately close their ears and go into abusive/sloganeering mode.
162

westview,

Greater Scotland 21/05/2008 15:38:21
It is not just the council tax payers cash pouring into private companies profits that is bad about Labour's PPP school building plans. Near to where I stay ,an Art Group which had ran for a dozen years in a local school, which was being demolished to make way for houses, was told it was not wanted in the new, now privatetly owned replacement building. Too messy for posh PPP funded buildings! Community involvement threatened by PPP.
163

Alan B,

21/05/2008 15:38:36
#Chris42

Do not think oil is a big deal now for the english economy. It is a very rich economy on it own right. Oil matters much more to the scottish economy.

When Barnett was produced in the 70s oil was desperately important to the english/uk economy. The economy was in meltdown and had to go to the imf for loans to bail the economy out. It was like a bananna republic. Inflation at one point had hit 25% under labour in the 70s.

The recent spike in oil prices would given scotland a large surplus now. But that is a recent thing and oil prices tend go down aswell as up. Meaning that scotland comes more into balance rather than having a big surplus.

The Grant Thornton investigation recently that pointed to scotland having a £4 billion surplus recently based on 85% of oil, is only about 1p in the penny uk income tax. Important to scotland but less relevant at a uk level. If 1p income tax in england is 4 billion then based on us being about 10% of that 1p in income tax equates to 400million for us. (we would actually be less as we are 8.*% not 10%). (the 4 billion is roughly speaking and not exact).

The real advantage in control out own taxes is not this apparent windfall but because tax policy can be used to try to transform the cronic slow economic growth that has plagued the scottish economy. Faster growth means more jobs, better living standards and higher tax take for the government to invest in public services.
164

brownlie,

21/05/2008 15:40:09
189 The Spook

It's all very well spouting on about saving millions from the public purse but, as a unionist, I've got a simple question for you - if fat greedy business men do not make substantial profits what is going to happen to our donations?
165

The Tin Man,

21/05/2008 15:42:32
#189 Spook in Leith

If you can't get your head around the article, try the SFT Consultation Document - that will really turn your brains into mince.
166

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 21/05/2008 15:44:02
Prescription charges going, Council Tax on hold, public expenditure slashed, lenders who will lend money at no interest ...
167

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 21/05/2008 15:45:12
196

"vennum"? For once, I hope that you are taking the p... .
168

The Tin Man,

21/05/2008 15:45:50
Here it is, in all it's glory....

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2007/12/19093017/0

If anyone understands it, please speak up...
169

,

21/05/2008 15:50:12
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
170

BrianHill,

21/05/2008 15:52:43
116 antifa Thanks for your post. Economics has never been my strong point which means I can't support SFT as such because I don't yet fully understand it, but I do understand the SNP approach and rate Swinney high on the trust factor.

It's not in the SNP's interest to try and con people over anything, especially over something like this which could be so easily shot down in flames by those who have the slightest understanding of economics.

Like many I am sickened by the constant whining and sniping of the Unionist press. One expects that sort of behaviour from the politicians poor souls, they have their whips to keep happy, but from the so called 'quality press'? Surely not.

I think most people will be willing to give the SNP a chance with this and if they fail because of extraneous constraints then we will be understanding.
171

BIG EYE,

Paisley 21/05/2008 15:54:48
Until shortly after the First World War Westminster used to publish the Annual Scottish Account. It is a fact that Scotland was ALWAYS in surplus in every year.

This was long before oil was discovered.

Funny why they decided to stop publishing it!
172

The Master,

21/05/2008 16:01:34
#200: Thanks for that, Candyman! The Master has indeed got his very own working email address, but so does his creator! Now, what’s the Master’s address again? Even I’ve forgotten where he lives.

#204 Spook: some crazed hacker: ignore him!
173

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 21/05/2008 16:10:51
I aggree with the master #184 about the use of STV in a referendum.I think that was just an idea floated by Alec Salmond to try and find a comprimise that might suit those opposing a referendum.I am sure he has dropped that idea.My earlier arguments were more to do with debunking the idea that the SNP were not interested in the Scottish people.The evidence for that is somewhat flimsy due to:
1) The SNP's aim of independence is supported by many Scots at home and abroad.While opinion polls flucuate ,on several occassion, there has been a majority for independence.However,the size of the independence vote is not what I'm getting at,just pointing out that the SNP represents that groups interest
2) The SNP have introduced a number of popular policies.Numerous public surveys indicate that a majority of the electorate are satisfied and pleased with the removal of prescription charges,the graduate endowment fee,keeping health care local etc.These surveys are clear evidence that the public currently agree that the SNP are listening and responding positively to their prioroties.
3)Alec Salmond is willing to have a multi-option referendum and the national conversation is inclusive of all views.
Thus the myth that the SNP is not interested in the Scottish people is not supported by the evidence.I would think that most people are being considered in some sort of way.I find this interesting but it is 6:10 in Finland and my friend is coming around for sauna.Need to check out for today.
174

Chris42,

21/05/2008 16:12:12
Alan B

Thanks for your reply. I agree that oil is not the be all and end all, but I assume what you envisage is that oil revenue would allow the Scottish Govt to lower business (and personal?)taxation without cutting public expenditure. Over time the resultant increased growth would enable the non-oil books to be balanced and the bulk of the oil revenue could then be squirreled away for future generations.
175

Alan B,

21/05/2008 16:15:09
#It wassnae me

I do agree they are struggling abit with the futures trust and it is just a rehash of PPP with hopefully the public not gettng ripped of. Their problem is they would like to go down the bond route but are not allowed to do this by the treasury. As such they are struggling with the limited options available.

With regard to LIT it shows a couple of things.
1)how weak the scottish parliament is.
2)how vindictive brown can be. allowing the sp to have the council tax rebate as part of the block grant will not cost the treasury one penny more than it does now. It is just petty, given that labour devolved the choice of council taxation to the sp.

The oil revenue thing is a good way for the snp to show what a poor deal scotland get from westminster financially. Brown will never relenguish it. But by arguing for it, they can demonstrate in the process the way north sea oil was wasted how countries like Norway have huge oil funds put aside for the future.

176

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 21/05/2008 16:15:45
212

Chris, you are missing the point: the SNP are committed to cutting public expenditure and they have been successful so far.
177

antifa,

21/05/2008 16:19:09
BrianHill:

You write:

"I think most people will be willing to give the SNP a chance with this and if they fail because of extraneous constraints then we will be understanding."

This kind of thinking worries me. If they succeed they get the plaudits and if they fail, it's Westminster's fault. In this context, what is the incentive to develop good policy?

It seems to me that this is the fundamental flaw in devolution, and full fiscal autonomy is required for Scotland to become a proper democracy.


178

Chris42,

21/05/2008 16:29:12
214 WU Merchant
My point was to do with the advantages of full fiscal autonomy for the Scottish Parliament.
179

kimba,

21/05/2008 16:31:29
183.One recent calculation estimates that just 163,000 Scottish taxpayers, from a population of 5m, make any net contribution to the British exchequer. The rest receive more than they pay out in reliefs, subsidies and benefits. COURTESY OF TIMES ONLINE.
180

john z,

edinburgh 21/05/2008 16:54:53
The Scottish Liberal Democrats should be ashamed of themselves. Today n PMQ's at westminster, Malcolm Bruce asked the prime minister 'as a fellow scot' no less, did he know if the Scottish Government plans required treasury (London) approval. Of course he actually called the Scottish Government 'the SNP executive'.

Memo to Malcolm Bruce: There is now a Scottish parliament. It was democratically elected by the people of Scotland. They are doing nothing which was not in their manifesto. That is, the people of Scotland voted for it. You are not in the Labour party. Do you understand, Malcolm???

Or have you been in London so long, you have forgotten where Scotland is??


Of course all of this gave broon, the perfect opportunity to rant about how bad the SNP policies were. All of course said without once referring to the fact that it is called the Scottish Government, and it is NONE of westminsters business.

Besides, I thought it was only labour MP's who asked the loaded questions to aid the current prime minister.

181

john z,

edinburgh 21/05/2008 17:05:13
For those questioning the oil, it is reckoned it will still be coming out the North sea for another 30 years, but in smaller and smaller quantities. The price is reckoned to rise, and not to really fall, as supplies become smaller and smaller all around the world, and demand from growing economies like India and China increases.

What the SNP would do is to effectively 'bank' some of the budget surplus from oil in an independent Scotland in investments, so that after thirty years, there would be a vast mountain of investment to provide a revenue stream to replace the oil. This is exactly what Norway has done.

Now that everyone in Scotland is aware of what a wealthy country it could be with independence, voting for it seems to be a no-brainer.

In the 70's the people of Scotland were mis led on the amount of oil, but that type of deception is not so easy in a technological age, with a limitless number of news sources available.
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Alan B,

21/05/2008 17:05:31
#Chris42

Yes that is correct.

The danger with the current situtation is say we wait until oil runs out. We will still have a slow growing economy and be dependent on england for subsidies. They could walk away from the union or cut the money we get and there is nothing we could do.

It we use oil revenues to turn round our economic performance. Remember we have grown at a rate of less than 2% on avg for the last 30yrs. The avg of other small western european countries was something like 4%.
Most small western european countries have a higher gdp per capita ppp than even the uk as a whole.

Luxembourg, Norway, Ireland, Switzerland, Iceland, Netherlands,Austria, Denmark, Sweden, Finland , Belgium

Having control of taxation allows u to many things. For instance a while ago brave heart and rob roy were being filmed. They chose ireland for location. why tax breaks for films. Scotland could not compete. (High taxes of nothing equals nothing.)

Is it a good idea to tax flights in scotland when we have had few direct flights. If u are a business looking for locations and simply scotland does not offer direct flights to other business locations u simply look else where.

The above point also demonstrates the need to control competition policy so that u can control landing charges to encourage direct flights rather than being a cash cow for a london (and now spanish) controlled company.

It is also important to consider currency. Would we be better off in the euro. Interest rates for sterling have been too high over a long period of time for the scottish economy. The euro rates is much more inline with scottish needs. Not saying it is perfect just better.

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All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 21/05/2008 17:09:43
#231

People do not vote for Independence because somebody tell sthem they will be better off. there are no examples of that, they vote because they have a national identity and a wish for self determination. Until the SNP realise that they will be stuck in their current quagmire unable to force the percentage over 30 on a regular basis despite the inept opposition.
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All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 21/05/2008 17:12:25
#221

"Salmond claims 11,500 jobs will be created" Can he account for where they will be created. how many will be lost, we could start with 7,000 at faslane, yep thats one site.
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Alan B,

21/05/2008 17:13:33
#All Politicians are the same

I disagree.

I think many people vote to stay in the union because they have been conned into thinking they would be better off. Why would labour have to lie about scotlands fiscal situation if it did not matter.

An old saying always said if scots voted with their heart they would vote for independence, but they vote with their heads (or wallet) and vote for the union.

that is the problem. there has been a con job to persuade people that economically scotland would be poorer outside the union.
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21/05/2008 17:26:36
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The Dark Side,

21/05/2008 17:30:34
#231 john z writes: What the SNP would do is to effectively 'bank' some of the budget surplus from oil in an independent Scotland in investments, so that after thirty years, there would be a vast mountain of investment to provide a revenue stream to replace the oil. This is exactly what Norway has done.

Problem solved then: you do have a simple take on government, don’t you, john boy!
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21/05/2008 17:31:27
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21/05/2008 17:34:51
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Allan(handofgod137),

21/05/2008 17:49:19
Once again the scottish numpty party fail, and all you nat trolls are leaping to their defence, no wonder support for indepenance keeps falling.
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21/05/2008 17:57:46
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frank mcbride,

lusitania 21/05/2008 17:59:12
# Sideshow Bob.

Apology accepted.

I was angry because, I have never made a gratuitous attack on any poster.
The eejits who do are in danger of curtailing debate. Maybe, that's their intention????????????
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frank mcbride,

lusitania 21/05/2008 18:13:41
#253, AM2.

Perhaps you would care to question the Economists who take a different view from yourself?

Are you saying that you agree with rampant usary? Or are you just having a dig at the SNP, whose policy, however much constrained by Westminster, is trying to obviate this anathma?


BTW, if someone is trying to "out" you, they are totally out of order, and required to be banned from all for(a)ums.
Although I disagree with you, in almost everything political, it is abhorent that anyone should be intimidated because of his/her opinions.
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21/05/2008 18:26:12
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boudica,

Glasgow 21/05/2008 18:35:58
It has took a year to come up with this document or report why publish it when they havent come to a final conclusion or decision and when they do will they also make the agreed " Profit " public ? this drip feeding info does the SNP no good and how much money from the Public Purse has this " Document " cost so far ? I am sure a few of the Usual " Advisors " have made a bob or two out of this already are we to be told how much ?I thought Wee Eck was supposedly a first class economist then again he worked for the RSB and we now know what a bunch of rip off merchants they are ..we have recently found out how some of the UK biggest Construction Firms have been fixing prices to their advantage ..who can say hand on heart that they will not also fix themselves a Golden Deal over this ..So the SNP should drop the Non Profit from anymore of these fantasy Reports ..and stop all the drip feeding ..
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21/05/2008 18:42:24
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SlyFifer,

California 21/05/2008 18:44:31
Any kind of public involvement in infrastructure is never likely to be financially efficient. Projects take many years to complete from inception seeing out most administrations. Over-runs in both time and money can easily be the other lot's fault. Government is not run as a business therefore can only ever be a short term enterprise. Nobody is responsible for holding the long term purse strings. Bonds are a good thing in themselves if they are struck for a specific project. The scrutiny therefore must be at the planning stage to ensure that costings are viable and relevant to the project being bonded. All too often it is the result of crass incompetence of all those involved which results in such massive cost over-runs. Another valid point is, why do construction projects cost such vast amounts of money in Scotland when compared to similar projects elsewhere that are no only done considerable cheaper but also, faster.
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21/05/2008 18:46:14
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21/05/2008 18:50:42
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21/05/2008 18:53:22
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21/05/2008 18:57:25
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21/05/2008 19:04:34
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boudica,

Glasgow 21/05/2008 19:05:32
249 ...The SNP are delivering the Aberdeen By Pass for Mr Souters Cash ....
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21/05/2008 19:05:45
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21/05/2008 19:06:16
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Fairfax,

21/05/2008 19:21:09
The Spook (223): "for the first time since the Act Of Union was passed, it can now be credibly argued that Scotland's economic advantage lies in its repeal"

In other words, the McCrone report argues that Union was to Scotland's economic advantage from 1707 until the 1970s. Do you agree?
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Calum Crubag,

21/05/2008 19:41:40
153 Kimba - if oil isn't important, then why does Brown rely on it in the UK budget? The fact is, and Unionists have already admitted misleading us on this in the 70s, Brit Nats have, almost since day one, played down the importance of oil. Meanwhile, the money keeps on rolling into London.

Meanwhile, Norway has a huge slushfund it's been building up since the 70s.

And, why should an independent Scotland follow any given party politics? Would a 'free' Scotland automatically vote SNP? Does the Republic of Ireland vote in Sinn Fein? Or Fine Gael?
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Electric Hermit,

21/05/2008 19:49:46
#175 The Tin Man

Thank you. So who is going to staff the offices of the SFT?

------------

People. As you grow up you may learn that they are not to be so readily dismissed.
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boudica,

Glasgow 21/05/2008 20:45:04
Col ..Where in my post did I say PFI was Good ...dont make assumptions but then again that is all you seem to do when anyone dare critise the SNP ...
215

boudica,

Glasgow 21/05/2008 20:52:31
Max ..I fear it is you who should lie down ...Didnt the SNP say they would go the Non Profit route ? now they are going for the Agreed Profit route .another Hokey Cokey Policy ...Wee Eck and the rest should make their minds up or just keep shtoom ...How much is this all costing the Tax payer before they even break any ground ...
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21/05/2008 21:12:43
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Yankee girl,

USA 21/05/2008 21:40:31
We've used PPPs a little here in the States, not on a widespread basis though. I guess there are too many uncertainties for us. But since our highway trust fund is going broke, we may have to use more of them to keep our roadway infrastructure going.

It would be interesting to get more detail on the SFT.
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21/05/2008 22:23:41
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boudica,

21/05/2008 23:13:48
Candy man ..I`d advise you too read the following as I think you fail to realise what you are doing is illegal and the person whose ionformation you are using can actually take legal steps against you if they so wish ... The publication of website content – whether textual, audio, video, or other content – can be unlawful in two main ways.

It can breach the criminal law; and it can give rise to civil liability.

Breaches of the criminal law may result in prosecution, and a successful prosecution may lead to a fine or even imprisonment.

Civil liability is different. Where content gives rise to civil liability, the person (or company or other organisation) that has suffered as a result of the publication may have a right to bring proceedings. The remedies in such proceedings will usually be damages (or an account of profit) and/or an injunction. A successful claimant will also expect most of their legal costs to be met by an unsuccessful defendant.

Examples of criminal (or potentially criminal) content include:

- Obscene or indecent material
- Material published in contempt of court
- Material published in breach of data protection, racial or religious hatred, or official secrets legislation

Examples of content that may give rise to civil liability include:

- Defamatory material
- Material infringing another person’s copyright (or other intellectual property rights)
- Material infringing another person’s rights of confidence or privacy

Those responsible for moderating internet forums, blog comments or other website features involving user generated content should be at least passingly familiar with each of these areas of potential liability.

220

boudica,

Glasgow 21/05/2008 23:19:56
280...Col "just cowardly evil traitor criminals perhaps?"
The SNP know all about "Cowardly Evil Traitors" as former SNP Leader Arthur Donaldson was one ..or are you totally ignorant to the History of the SNP ?
221

Elizabeth I (1558-1603 AD),

edinburgh 21/05/2008 23:21:59
Scotland - are you still a country of whingers???? Get rid of the men and women with the chips on the shoulders, the anti-English brigade. These types are holding you back from being happy in life. Ask yourself - Is it REALLY worth it!?
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indune1,

Canada 21/05/2008 23:47:58

What a match. Drogba is a tw*t. If he wasn't leaving Chelsea he would never have risked a red card. You have to feel for Terry.

291 - Hey Yankee Girl. Hope the black lace is carefully stowed away and the Chardonnay still on ice.

It appears that the numpties at the Hootsman have once again taken my identity away for no apparent reason. Gives credence to those who believe in conspiracy theories. Hugs and oodles, Dunnie.



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boudica,

295 21/05/2008 23:54:35
Liz 1 ..Scotland isnt full of whingers only the Natz do the Whinging and they aint the majority ...so Chill..
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Mike555,

22/05/2008 15:16:26
Wendy should get her teeth into the new Forth crossing.

This should be a tunnel built at half the cost of a bridge and twice as reliable since it never needs to close due to weather, does not rust and could be built in half the time.
225

Bemused and above it all,

22/05/2008 15:30:55
couldnt help but notice that in amongst the 'SNP broken promises' guff that no-one mentioned the westminister government holding back several HUNDERD MILLIONS from the settlement after labour lost power.
Just a thought but how about a new system to replace the Bartlett formula?
In this system monies generated from a nation or territorial waters remain there for use of the devolved government, any surplus may be loaned to poorer, less productive parts of the UK. Only then would we be truly devolved, a step towards independence and a massive slap in the face for those who believe the myth that Scotland survives on subsidies.

 

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