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Expenses scandal 'could tear UK apart'

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Published Date: 16 May 2009
CONSERVATIVE leader David Cameron issued a stark warning yesterday that the MPs' expenses scandal could tear the United Kingdom apart.
With public anger growing over the misuse of taxpayers' money, Mr Cameron urged Scots not to be tempted to vote for the SNP out of anger at what was happening at Westminster.

In an appeal to all voters, he told the party's Scottish conference in Perth: "I say this: I know you're angry with Westminster's politicians. But a vote for the SNP puts our Union at risk."

He said the SNP would look upon the scandal with glee and use it for its separatist agenda, even though its MPs "are not themselves squeaky clean". He added: "The Union between our two countries is in danger. This moment is dangerous yet vital."

The SNP's Westminster group leader, Angus Robertson, was caught in the scandal earlier this week after claiming for a £400 "home cinema" and £20 corkscrew, but Mr Cameron used the occasion to attack First Minister Alex Salmond for drawing two salaries as a dual mandate politician.

Mr Salmond claims his full Westminster salary of £64,766 but only a third of the MSP's wage of £56,671, which he donates to a charity set up in memory of his mother. Taunting the First Minister, Mr Cameron said: "You say you're Scotland's voice in Westminster – well, I haven't heard it."

His speech came just hours after UK justice minister Shahid Malik became the first member of the government to resign as a result of the scandal. Police and prosecutors are also preparing to meet to decide whether to launch criminal investigations into MPs in the wake of a barrage of complaints from the public.

And last night, Labour backbencher David Chaytor was revealed as the second MP to claim thousands of pounds for interest on a non-existent mortgage.

It also emerged last night that the ex-West Lothian MP Tam Dalyell, former father of the Commons, attempted to claim £18,000 for bookcases two months before he retired as an MP in 2005.

By last night, 23 MPs had agreed to return more than £140,000 in expenses to the Commons authorities.

In his 25-minute speech to a 1,200-strong audience in Perth, the Tory leader promised to rebuild the "mother of all parliaments" so that it became a respected institution again.

Mr Cameron scrapped last night's Conservative Party political broadcast for next month's European elections and replaced it with a public apology and explanation of his proposals to root out questionable claims from his MPs.

He has also banned second home claims for food and furniture – allowing only the "bare necessities" – and the practice of MPs "flipping" between addresses to maximise benefits. "Flipping, I won't flipping have it," he told the conference.

Recently submitted expenses claims from the shadow cabinet began being published on the Conservative Party website yesterday. They included claims from Mr Cameron, shadow skills minister David Willetts and shadow Northern Ireland secretary Owen Paterson.

Tories implicated in the expenses scandal are spending the weekend in their constituencies, where they were holding public meetings to hear the anger of constituents – amid expectations some could be forced to stand down as general election candidates.

Alan Duncan, the shadow leader of the Commons, who claimed about £4,700 for gardening, was forced to pull out of Any Questions on BBC Radio 4 to address his constituency party. He said yesterday he had seen fellow MPs "in tears" despite their "consciences being clear" about their expenses claims.

Mr Cameron told the conference he would ban Conservative politicians having dual mandates. However, he appeared to suggest the Tories should do exactly what Mr Salmond is doing and wait for the first election to stand down, rather than sparking a by-election.

Earlier, the conference heard an apology from Michael Gove, the Scots-born shadow children's secretary, who was ordered by Mr Cameron to repay more than £7,500 for furniture and a hotel stay. He said: "The last week has dealt a devastating blow to people's faith in politics. I am sorry for the mistakes I made."

Mr Cameron also announced measures to rebuild trust between the UK and Scottish governments.

He pledged that, as prime minister, he would come to Scotland once a year to answer questions on any subjects from MSPs. He said his Scottish Secretary would be expected to hold monthly meetings with the First Minister, whichever party he or she was from, and provide briefings on the Queen's Speech.

He mocked the SNP and Labour for not talking to each other, and said expectations by the Nationalists that a Conservative government would hurry the split of the Union would prove unfounded.

He said: "I know you (the SNP] think a Conservative government at Westminster will ignore what Scotland wants and needs, and that you will use such claims to promote your separatist agenda. Well, think again.

"Whatever the outcome in Scotland of the next general election, a Conservative government will govern the whole of the United Kingdom, including Scotland, with respect."

He added: "Whoever is Scotland's First Minister, I would be a prime minister who acts on the voice of the Scottish people and works tirelessly for consent and consensus."

WHO CLAIMED WHAT

ANTHONY STEEN, the Conservative MP for Totnes, was reported to have claimed tens of thousands of pounds for looking after a "country mansion" including work on 500 trees.

Cotswolds MP Geoffrey Clifton-Brown, the shadow minister for international development, claimed for a mortgage on a £2.75 million house, it was reported.

Shadow work and pensions minister James Clappison , claimed over £100,000, including thousands for gardening and redecoration.

The Democratic Unionist MPs Peter and Iris Robinson, are said to have both claimed expenses based on the same £1,223 bill in 2007.

They had claims for £10,860 of mortgage interest rejected due to a lack of paperwork.

Former Labour chief whip Hilary Armstrong claimed £3,100 for repointing masonry at her constituency home, while Clare Short, the former Cabinet minister, overcharged the Commons authorities £8,000 for her mortgage.

Ms Short – who now sits as an independent MP , – paid back the money after the error was pointed out by the Commons fees office in 2006.

MAXIMUM CLAIMS

SCOTTISH MPs who claimed maximum second homes allowance in 2007-8 (£23,083)

Danny Alexander (Lib Dem, Inverness)

Gordon Banks (Lab, Ochil)

John Barrett (Lib Dem, Edinburgh West)

Malcolm Bruce (Lib Dem, Gordon)

Alistair Carmichael (Lib Dem, Orkney and Shetland)

Michael Connarty (Lab, Linlithgow)

Ian Davidson (Lab, Glasgow South West)

Brian Donohoe (Lab, Central Ayrshire)

Tom Harris (Lab, Glasgow South)

Adam Ingram (Lab, East Kilbride)

Anne Moffat (Lab, East Lothian)

John Reid (Lab, Airdrie)

Jim Sheridan (Lab, Paisley)

Jo Swinson (Lib Dem, East Dunbartonshire)

IN NUMBERS

£64,766

Basic salary for MPs (2009-10).

£24,766 a year

Current second homes allowance.

£109.3 million

Estimated total expenses and allowances bill for this year.

£7.4 million

Travel expenses.

23

MPs have repaid cash so far, following start of scandal.

£141,627

Repaid.

£107,716

From Labour.

£28,426

From Conservatives.

£2,754

From Liberal Democrats.




Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 15 May 2009 11:51 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Politicians' expenses
 
1

English Voice,

16/05/2009 00:03:53
Total nonsense.

Westminster is the mother of parliaments and a great Britannic rallying icon of patriotic Britishness for us Unionists.

There will be no "tearing apart" as long as Rufus is posting here 24/7!
2

,

16/05/2009 00:09:09
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3

,

16/05/2009 00:11:49
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4

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/05/2009 00:15:15
Cameron and the rest of the political class who have collectively brought us to this precipitous position need to take a long hard look at themselves.

It is their behaviour which has ensured that the only sensible vote in Scotland is an SNP one - and let's be grateful for that because down South the BNP/UKIP are being seen as credible parties due to the absolute failure of New Labour and the Tories to have any kind of ''plan'' for dealing with the mess this country is in.

And as for trotting out the SNP expenses - they are mere amateurs compared to the Labour/Tory party who's antics indicate to me that there is now a direct parallel between the Palace of Westminster and the Palace of Versailles before the French Revolution. Where is a guillotine when you need one.
5

Jeeemy,

St Andrews 16/05/2009 00:16:57
Do not forget the postal votes
6

English Voice,

16/05/2009 00:17:19
4. good grief!

While we in New Labour support £1 billion in cuts to spending in Scotland, we can hardly be expected to support sub standard patio furniture, hanging baskets or cheap internet porn for ourselves.

Our expenses are a clear and vital priority.

7

,

16/05/2009 00:19:45
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8

Conan the Librarian™,

16/05/2009 00:21:10
7
Good Morning English Voice.

Yeehah.
9

Conan the Librarian™,

16/05/2009 00:26:00
7
That Sense and Worth, o'er a' the earth,
Shall bear the gree, an' a' that.
10

Ewan Randall,

16/05/2009 00:26:23
If the Tories had realized they could stay in power for much longer if areas of the UK split off would you not think they would wish for such a thing to happen?

If you had an extremely unpopular political party and they wished the population to do what they wanted wouldn't it be ideal for them if they ask the people to not do something?
11

Castaway™ ,

16/05/2009 00:36:03
and £20 corkscrew, compared with.....

Elliot Morley who claimed almost £16,000 for a non-existent mortgage.
Andrew Mackay claimed £140,952 under the second home allowances scheme for one marital home when his wife Julie Kirkbride, a fellow Tory MP, claimed the same allowance on another, meaning the couple double claimed.
Alistair Darling the Chancellor changed the property on which he claims second homes allowance four times in five years, pocketing £111,000 of public cash in the process.
Clare Short Labour MP for Birmingham Ladywood claimed the full cost of her mortgage for two and a half years, despite being entitled to charge only for the interest element.
Justice Minister Shahid Malik has claimed thousands of pounds in taxpayer allowances on his second home while renting his main home.
MP Fabian Hamilton declaring his mother’s home in London as his main residence, allowing him to claim thousands of pounds to improve his family home in Leeds.
Ann and Alan Keen, who have allegedly claimed almost £40,000 a year on a central London flat less than 10 miles from their family home.
Ed Balls and Yvette Cooper who reportedly "flipped" their second home to three different properties within two years.
Chris Bryant,“flipped” his second home twice in two years, allowing him to claim almost £20,000 from expenses.
David Chaytor,has admitted that he had claimed almost £13,000 in interest payments for a mortgage that he had already repaid.
These MP's never attend Parliament yet claimed these expenses.
The five Sinn Féin MPs claimed a total of £662,660 of taxpayer-funded allowances in 2007/8, including travel costs, offices and staff salaries.
Since 2001 the five Sinn Féin MPs have claimed a total of £437,405 under the Additional Costs Allowance (ACA) system, which helps MPs to meet the cost of running a second home.
12

Iainbroch,

16/05/2009 00:36:38
In relation to Title of Article - we can only hope!

I see Malcolm" It is okey to lie" Bruce on the list of maxxed out piggys. I suppose Its okay to be greedy as well Malcolm?

Oh and Tams bookcases - I just cant help but break some of my ribs.

No wonder Tom Harris is so happy with his lot in life and disgrunteled about the rest of us being miserable.

Oh and Danny Alexander - I guess those Fib Dums better make sure they sell at no profit or Cleggie will bite you.

Oh and Mirror Mirrors on the wall who is the fairest of us all - Don Ming Juan. I always knew the Fib Dums were vain.

I expect that David and the rest will be sent homeward to think again.

Disolution of Parliament and an immediate General Election is a must.
13

Conan the Librarian™,

16/05/2009 00:36:42
13
We can all hope Richard.

Yeehah!
14

Vivas,

Edinburgh 16/05/2009 00:36:43
Excellent. And so it begins. The next Prime Minister is starting to tell Scots whats right for us. Keep it coming Tory boy, keep it coming. Looking forward to seeing the size of your mandate this side of the border.

Edit: David Cameron "repays" £680 bill for wisteria removal.
15

Conan the Librarian™,

16/05/2009 00:38:22
14

Been listening to a good bluegrass band Col. Yeehah
16

Barney Thomson,

Reading 16/05/2009 00:40:23
"the MPs' expenses scandal could tear the United Kingdom apart"

As the Tories say -

"Rejoice! Rejoice!
17

FerryPort,

16/05/2009 00:40:28
It's not a case of pulling apart it's a case of exposing.
It’s like if you made a mistake
Oh I’m sorry
Sorry is okay if you have made a real mistake
But sorry I’ve screwed you and all your family and all our community

18

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/05/2009 00:40:48
The total monies MPs receive is approximately:

£200 000 000

of which

£117 000 000

is "expenses" which, I believe, are tax free: real amount:

£164 000 000.

Does this make any sense to anyone?

1/3 wages: 2/3 "expenses"
19

Iainbroch,

16/05/2009 00:41:38
I look forward to a weekend of carnage and not on the roads or the after effects of an old firm game either.
20

The Vital Spark,

16/05/2009 00:42:15
15 Castaway™ ,

"and £20 corkscrew, compared with....."

Well indeed, it would appear that The Scotsman
appears somewhat obsessed with this corkscrew and
seem determined to fit it into each and every story.
I wonder what the Scotsman calls the tens of
thousand pounds fraud from predominately Labour Comrades when the £20 corkscrew is labeled
a 'Scandal' ?






21

,

16/05/2009 00:43:14
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22

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 16/05/2009 00:43:20
Roll on REFERENDUM DAY when we SCOTS can FINALLY GET RID OF THIS PATHETIC DISHONEST BANKRUPT UNION with england. INDEPENDENCE AT ANY COST.. IT'S TIME GENTLEMEN and WOMEN AT THE TROUGH !!!!!!!!!!!!
23

Ewan Randall,

16/05/2009 00:45:15
(#18) – (Vivas) – Did you not think that David Cameron could be using the well tried and effective English put up or shut up technique which quite often uses reverse psychology as its main weapon?
24

BIG EYE,

Paisley 16/05/2009 00:47:33
Note to the Editor

Possible SNP misclaims (currently £1020 despite the best efforts of the Unionist press) and I stress the "possible" do not multiply by the number of times they appear in the paper.Sad for you but true!

As the Tory leader stated yesterday events at Westminster provide vast ammunition for the SNP.

Elections don't you just love them!!!
25

Iainbroch,

16/05/2009 00:47:35
re 23

Did you account for everything in that? What about thier Pensions and Golden Handshakes? Oh and unidentifiables? A favourite of Westmidden that one - unidentifiables or should that be miscellaneous spending? You know the stuff they ignore when we are getting reamed by the Barnett Formula?
26

Conan the Librarian™,

16/05/2009 00:48:17
25
A corruption of corkscrews?
27

Vivas,

Edinburgh 16/05/2009 00:49:20
Sir Gerald Kaufman, the former Labour environment minister, charged £1,851 for a rug he imported from a New York antiques centre and tried to claim £8,865 for a television. He also put in a claim for £28,834 — of which £15,329 was paid — for improvements to his London flat, telling officials that he was “living in a slum”.
28

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 16/05/2009 00:51:22
"Mr Cameron urged Scots not to be tempted to vote for the SNP out of anger at what was happening at Westminster"

One of the very reasons we have an SNP is just exactly because of anger at what has been happening at Westminster for the past 302 years. Do Cameron think that voting for the SNP is something new that has happened over the past month or so??

I know the man is out-of-touch in Scotland, but Goldie should really keep him up-to-date.
29

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/05/2009 00:52:44
#30, Iainbroch.

No I haven't included pension contributions; only identified spending as per the report.

30

Ewan Randall,

16/05/2009 00:54:26
How many starving children in Africa could a £400 food allowance feed for a month?
31

,

16/05/2009 00:56:29
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32

Iainbroch,

16/05/2009 00:57:08
re 35

I suppose Murphy just shredded that - reason for his disappearance no doubt. Broonie has found some use for him at last?
33

Conan the Librarian™,

16/05/2009 00:57:46
37
How many selfrighteous @rseholes can dance on the head of a pin?
34

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/05/2009 00:58:36
37 Every 3.6 seconds a person dies of hunger. 3/4 of the daily deaths are of children under 4 years old. So I think the answer would be - a lot ?
35

Castaway™ ,

16/05/2009 00:58:45
By last night, 23 MPs had agreed to return more than £140,000 in expenses to the Commons authorities.

If they didn't break any of the allowance and expenses guidlines and submitted claims within the law they shouldn't repay the money.
36

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/05/2009 01:01:06
40 Conan - if a ''lot'' of people could be saved by an unspecified food allowance - then how many more could be saved by people who claim £100,000 on a second home allowance when you've got twenty four of 'em, or the kind of money that the Labour mob claimed for ?

Wasn't Gordon Brown going to do away with poverty ?
37

The Vital Spark,

16/05/2009 01:01:49
Yep, the 'Socialist' comrades do very well for themselves especially the Scottish ones
like Gorbals Mick .


"Michael Martin's home gets £1.7m makeover"

"The lavish programme -which is even more costly than the controversial redecoration of the official residence of Lord Irvine"

"The Speaker is well paid and receives generous allowances as well as a free house, so it is excessive for him to be billing so heavily for furniture, art and cooling systems.

"This is compelling evidence that Michael Martin is a completely inappropriate person to oversee MPs' expenses - he enjoys the high life all too much himself."

see - tinyurl.com/ajkwgn

"Commons Speaker Michael Martin will retire on a generous taxpayer-funded pension worth £1.4million - after refusing to follow the Prime Minister in ditching the extravagant perk."

see - tinyurl.com/afjsc4

Apparently the 'Scottish' Labour MPs evolutionary
path is :

Councilor(PFI Scams)->
MSP(Wendy Style donation Fraud)->
MP(a pretty big Pig Trough)->
An unelected tax free Lord for life (the Golden
Pig Trough and with extra cash for changing laws)
->British Made Millionaire.

No wonder 'Scottish' Labour is
so against dismantling this British thing :)

38

Barney Thomson,

Reading 16/05/2009 01:01:53
£20 corkscrew - from John Lewis (?)

£117million cashscrew - from us
39

Vivas,

Edinburgh 16/05/2009 01:03:53
Indeed. How many more people could be saved by the cost of a commissioned picture of Margaret Thatcher for No.10 ?

The one that was commissioned by the leader of the Labour Party.
40

lachlan,

16/05/2009 01:05:10
strong words from mr cameron,
and other westminster party leaders,after the event.how long were they they aware this nonsense was going on?
41

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 16/05/2009 01:05:12
I see the Scotsman is offering free the book "Shipwrecks of Scotland".

No need for them to talk about the Labour Party in Scotland quite so directly.
42

Iainbroch,

16/05/2009 01:06:32
re 45

£117 million could be a gross underestimate - remember it is Westmidden accounting - the true bill is probably much larger.
43

Ewan Randall,

16/05/2009 01:08:38
(#38) - (The Vital Spark) - Is it not the case that corruption is corruption and has nothing what so ever to do with size for its existence?

Is it not true that the police believe major criminals start off committing petty crime?

What do you think a petty criminal might do if they ever got their hands on a nice fat chunk of oil revenue money?
44

Conan the Librarian™,

16/05/2009 01:08:56
43
Do you realy beleive if we gave most of our money to charity things would change?


No, I don't think you do.

45

Tartan Viking,

16/05/2009 01:09:01
Message to Cameron.

I will vote who I want to vote for Tory Boy.. Pee off and don't tell us who to vote for.
46

The Vital Spark,

16/05/2009 01:10:23
The Telegraph is now reporting the SNP MP Alex McNeil
claimed £2 for a Toblerone chocolate bar - shock
horror !

I think The Scotsman is going to be all
over this for the next several days. Good by £20 corkscrews and hello the scandal of the £2 Toblerone :)


No doubt The Scotsman can just copy and paste
the expose from The Telegraph which appears to
go into an amazing amount of detail for one SNP
MP - looks like they are getting desperate
to convince the public that the SNP are as low
as the Labour party. I think they will have to
try a lot harder than this.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5330817/MPs-expenses-cash-for-peerages-MP-claimed-for-Toblerone.html
47

BIG EYE,

Paisley 16/05/2009 01:10:43
37.

I suspect if we could cut out corruption in the Unionist parties we could feed millions in Africa.

Don't you agree?
48

Conan the Librarian™,

16/05/2009 01:11:25
50
Ask Margaret Thatcher, she did all right.
49

Ewan Randall,

16/05/2009 01:14:59
(#46) – (Vivas) – Sackcloth and ashes all round?
50

Castaway™ ,

16/05/2009 01:15:33
#37- You are right - How many starving children in Africa could a £400 food allowance feed for a month. Maybe the following MPs will listen to what you said and return their food expenses to help the starving children in Africa ?

John Prescott - £4,800 - Maximum food allowance for 04-05,
Peter Hoone - Home in Derbyshire (Claimed between 2004-2006): £400 a month - Groceries.
Hazel Blears (December 2004): £400 per month - Groceries.
Alistair Darling - £300 a month for food.
Julia Goldsworthy also regularly claimed the maximum £400 monthly food allowance.
Jack Straw 2007/08 food £1,700
Mandelson July 2004 food £270 while living in Hartlepool
Margaret Beckett 2005/06 £1,800 while living in Derby
Paul Murphy 2007/08 food £2,700
Caroline Flint 2007/08 food £1,896
Alan Haselhurst 2007/08 food £3,400
Alex Salmond food £1,700
Francis Maude food £3,020
Cherly Gillian food (dog) £4.47
Bob Marshall-Andrews grocery bills of between £100 and £350 per month.
Mr Balls and Miss Cooper submitted regular claims for food, usually totalling up to £600 a month.
Frank Field Mr Field generally claimed £200 a month food expenses.

And because MPs can claim up to £400 per month for food, with no need for receipts, some put in claims for precisely that amount every month, even during the recess when they are not expected to live at their “second” home. Guardian 08 May 2009

It looks as if the Members' Dining Room for MPs is under used ?
51

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/05/2009 01:15:41
51 eh ?

Who's talking about ''charity''. I'm talking about hypocrisy. And Ewan talking plsh.
52

,

16/05/2009 01:17:05
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53

Ewan Randall,

16/05/2009 01:21:37
(#54) – (BIG EYE) – Why wouldn’t I think that if we could cut out corruption in the Union we could feed even more?
54

Iainbroch,

16/05/2009 01:21:44
re 54

I feel a song coming on called

Feed the World

However some of the pals of the Unionist Partys in the Agri Business might object and the commodity speculators might arrange for you to have an accident or their last resort hire some Brit Mercenarys known to the son of a former Tory Pri Minister and organise a coup d'etat in any country silly enough to take the aid, especially if they have some sexy minerals.

So it is another Unionist cul de sac!
55

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/05/2009 01:26:30
#53, The Vital Spark.

Be prepared for the insane Grahamski to appear ranting against SNP corruption.
56

Gorach,

Oban 16/05/2009 01:27:32
It has ran it's course. A new day is coming.

Le Durachd


57

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 16/05/2009 01:27:53


Did someone put something in the Tory's Teas! recently?
They are coming across as quite, 'Bonkers'!


58

Iainbroch,

16/05/2009 01:29:04
Oh Dear Oh Dear Oh Dear! non existant flats - whatever next? No wonder some people cant get Mortgages!

Nu Labour - Creative Accounting at its best!
59

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/05/2009 01:29:20
Ewan Randall.

Are you a wee laddie who has a special liking for the childrens' story, "Are you my mother?".
60

The Vital Spark,

16/05/2009 01:30:16

Apparently the voting public have made up their minds as to who are the fattest and greediest Pigs at
the Trough and the winner is surprise surprise
the Labour Comrades.

Things have gotten so bad the combined forces of
extreme Brit Nats (UKIP and BNP) are now out polling
Labour for the upcoming European election with
a combined poll of 23% and Labour on 22%.
Now wouldn't that be ultimate irony if
British Brown was beaten to third or fourth place
by Brit Nats :)

http://www.order-order.com/2009/05/ukip-breaking-through-on-19/
61

Barney Thomson,

Reading 16/05/2009 01:30:36
Vital Spark #53
Telegraph - "the Union Jack Club, a private members' society"
Used to stay there myself when I had to overnight in London. It's a not particularly comfortable but very cheap (for London) establishment generally frequented by members of the Armed, Emergency and Civil Services. At £40 to £50 per night he was hardly pushing the boat out. 10 to 15 mins walk to Westminster.
Hugely disappointed that he could bring himself to stay in a gaff called that, though.
62

Castaway™ ,

16/05/2009 01:31:51
A cross-party parliamentary committee agreed that an independent team would be appointed to go through every claim made in the last four years by every MP to look for any anomalies.

Why only the last four years ? Commons Speaker Michael Martin allowed officials to destroy claim forms and receipts up to April 2005 - meaning thousands of expenses have been secretly shredded.
But the authorities said the shredding was simply "routine destruction" - and not a cover up. MailonLine 18 May 2008
63

Conan the Librarian™,

16/05/2009 01:32:41
58
Sorry Ob, Ewan talking *p* I understood...

I've just spent twenty minutes wrangling with this useless effen software.

Will this be for the want of a better word "published"
64

The Vital Spark,

16/05/2009 01:33:24
68 Barney Thomson,Reading

Yep I thought it was bit ironic an SNP MP staying at
Union Jack Club, but as you say at least it is cheap :)
65

Iainbroch,

16/05/2009 01:34:11
Caneron has lost it, showing some megalomaniac tendencies already.

I will be pri minister of all the UK. Another Tory PM without a mandate in Scotland and Wales.
66

Iainbroch,

16/05/2009 01:38:48
re 59

I think they have even sold the nails, just coming apart at the seams. No bidders or takers either for what is left.
67

Alanski2005,

16/05/2009 01:39:50
'Expenses scandal could tear the UK apart'...

All I can say to that is great - I can't wait!
68

Tartan Viking,

16/05/2009 01:43:14
Cameron said in a speech today / yesterday that he would show Scotland "respect" if the Tories got in Power.

So respect was not a foregone conclusion in the first place?
69

Tartan Viking,

16/05/2009 01:45:58
#76 Funny how you never see woofie and Margaret Curran in the same room.
70

The Vital Spark,

16/05/2009 01:48:10
77 Tartan Viking

I wonder if this is the type respect he has in mind ?

Oct 2007

"TORY leader David Cameron cast a slur on all Scots last night - saying he was afraid to campaign in Glasgow in case someone attacked him.

He told his party's conference he dreaded going to the city for fear of being head-butted."


- tinyurl.com/o7kh39
71

,

16/05/2009 01:48:18
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72

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/05/2009 02:00:11
77 I think the Tories will show as much respect to Scotland as your average young guy picking up a lassie in a nightclub and promising to ''respect'' her in the morning will.

They are Tories, they will screw us, it's what they do.

With that in mind, there is only one option.

73

Edward,

16/05/2009 02:01:55
'Whatever the outcome in Scotland of the next general election, a Conservative government will govern the whole of the United Kingdom, including Scotland, with respect.'
Yeah right! First you will not he any mandate to governScotland, secondly with 30 plus SNP MP's sitting opposite you, you willhave no alternative BUT to give respect!
74

Iainbroch,

16/05/2009 02:06:21
RE 81

Cut thier p!!!s off!
75

RAIDERJAMBO,

The other side o' Mars 16/05/2009 02:19:47
Ken Dodd for P.M. and bring along the Diddymen. Water/oil=Politicians/Honesty!
76

Edward,

16/05/2009 02:21:55
Now I just cant wait until the UK is disolved and Scotland is Independent, put an end to this parcel of rogues!
77

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 16/05/2009 02:30:37
It is ages since i have come on here to pass comment on current events, but I feel compelled to do so as i sense the approach of a political cataclysm unknown possibly since the early 19th century when the rotten and pocket boroughs were swept away and the House of Commons made its first steps on the road to universal democracy. Although we now elect our representatives, they seem to portray all the worst traits of their predecessors of two hundred years ago. Greed and Self interest.

When we ordinary citizens are hounded with complex claim forms for tax credits or social welfare if we are poor, or complex tax forms with penalties and surcharges if we get them wrong if we are not so poor, our MPs are prepared to lie, cheat, defraud, embezzle etc to maintain lifestyles that their constituents can only imagine. They have really no shame, and entitled to no respect.

When Mr Brown next visits the Palace, I trust that Her Majesty will have a word in his ear. and tell him that he should be inviting her to dissolve parliament as we are the point now where our entire democratic institutions are under threat and those presently in charge have forfeited all respect from the people. There now needs to be a complete clean out of those presently there and that the standards of integrity and honesty expected of our MPs must be of the same standard expected of the ordinary citizens under the criminal law. Only by prosecutions of those who have transgressed and appropriate time served in HM Prisons, will confidence and trust be restored and an adequate deterent exist as a warning to others.
78

Jimmy Le Pie,

16/05/2009 02:50:35
Excellent article.

Hopefully the Sunday's will have some more sleazy titbits about the most corrupt government ever.
The history books won't treat Comrade Blair and Broon kindly!!

Illegal war
Bankrupt economy
First Lords suspended in 400 years
Parliamentary sleaze on an unprecedented scale.
Cash for honours.
Need I go on????

NEW LABOUR SLEAZE - #1 FOR SLEAZE AND CORRUPTION
79

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 16/05/2009 03:20:48

MY VOTE IS NOW GETTING SWUNG BIG STYLE!, AND DO NOT LAUGH!

It is all the Great Work that Nichola Sturgeon does, She should be the Leader of the SNP!

And it would be of,..'NO-EXPENSE'!

80

The Pict.,

Canada/Edinburgh 16/05/2009 03:33:54
'Stark Warning' to whom? Who cares?

We Nats will dump all the English led Scottish wimp parties at the next election. Cameron can then give his stark warnings to the country that he represents: ENGLAND.
SLAINTE MHATH.
81

McGubbligan,

Oz 16/05/2009 03:43:00
Labour MP's Checklist
We must learn to be unselfish, tighten belts and buckle down.
This is what you tell the voters as you go from town to town.
You must talk of self denial, but remember we're exempt,
Be self seeking, grab the perks, treat the voters with contempt.
You can promise them low taxes, full employment and cheap food.
But take care of number one first, as a Labour polly should.
Say you'll lead them from financial gloom, and make our nation grow,
Though your bright ideas in total wouldn't make a torch bulb glow.
Parade your lofty principals, your honesty and zeal,
But if you want a limo, you'll have to do a deal.
Travel overseas a lot, spend up big and don't be cheap,
The money pit is bottomless, the gravy pool is deep.
If voters kick you out at last, as voters surely can,
You'll still be laughing to the bank, with a hefty super-an.

G. Haughey
82

Otis Boone,

Sacramento 16/05/2009 03:53:18
Looking at it from across the pond, I like Mr Cameron. I think he'd defend and rebuild the realm better than Broon, and Salmond for that matter.

I see sincerity in his statement of meeting with MSPs annually, if not more, to make sure Scotland's interests are not only heard but debated and implemented for the time She remains in the Union.

Should he win election, follow through with that statement/promise, and produce tangible and significant results, SNP may not have the votes it needs to win independence.
83

The Pict.,

Canada/Edinburgh 16/05/2009 04:07:23
# 94 You've been across the pond too long. Cameron will do nothing for Scotland. Unless you're referring to the 'wonderful' job done for Scotland by another Conservative -Maggie Thatcher - and you are suggesting that Cameron will do the same. Wake up and smell the coffee. The Union is Dead!
SLAINTE MHATH.
84

Kingston,

Singapore 16/05/2009 05:02:24
These are the same MP's who sanctioned war with Iraq.
How tragic.


85

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 16/05/2009 06:08:15
David Chaytor and the phantom £13,000 mortgage claim: MPs' expenses

Sir Gerald Kaufman, the former Labour environment minister, charged £1,851 for a rug he imported from a New York antiques centre and tried to claim £8,865 for a television. He also put in a claim for £28,834 — of which £15,329 was paid — for improvements to his London flat, telling officials that he was “living in a slum”.

Tam Dalyell, the former father of the House of Commons, attempted to claim £18,000 for bookcases two months before he retired as an MP in 2005

That little lot would buy more than a few Toblerones.
86

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 16/05/2009 06:27:41
From the article:-

"Mr Cameron used the occasion to ATTACK First Minister Alex Salmond for drawing two salaries as a dual mandate politician."

"Mr Salmond claims his full Westminster salary of £64,766 but only a third of the MSP's wage of £56,671, WHICH HE DONATES TO A CHARITY"

Maybe I missed something, but it reads like praise for Alex Salmond from Cameron.

87

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 16/05/2009 06:33:05
98 Jo'Burg

I think that the correction to Cameron’s ill-informed statement is from the journo.
88

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 16/05/2009 06:43:19
bully wee alba,Edinburgh 16/05/2009 06:33:05

I know, but it is worth putting the two together just as you have rightfully pointed out that Cameron is ill informed.

Cameron has no interest in the people of Scotland and his comments are an embarrassment to the Tories in Scotland.
89

C. Mantic,

Edinburgh 16/05/2009 07:01:17
I wonder how many MPs, who bought expensive furniture and AV products and the like for their London second home, then moved them to their constituency main homes, and are even now hiring Transits to get them back to London in the dark, leaving their family destitute?
90

Ursus arctos horribilis,

16/05/2009 07:04:23
Labour will be lucky (very) to beat the BNP for third place in England-Tories are going to romp home with a massive majority and Libdems are a good bet for second-albeit a long way behind. Scotland will again be inconclusive-SNP cannot win a majority-but as the incoming Tory govt will be forced to slash public expenditure-(long overdue) -we can expect rising conflict between Holyrood and Westminister.

If we had any armed forces left-it would now be time for them to take control in the national interest. As for-mthe MP's -they should be facing jail-time including the Speaker.

What a mess-and did someone mention an economy going into melt-down!
91

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 16/05/2009 07:11:06
From the article:-

"the Tory leader promised to rebuild the mother of all parliaments"

The upper chamber of this parliament, - the House of Lords, consists of UNELECTED PEERS.

The positions are HEREDITARY or APPOINTED through the murky arrangement between Tories, Labour and Liberals to ensure jobs and/or titles for life, for their supporters and financial contributors.

What can possibly be more abhorrent than this iniquitous arrangement to anyone who understands the meaning of the word - DEMOCRACY.

The "WH@RE OF ALL PARLIAMENTS" is an accurate description of your filthy little set up, Mr Cameron.
92

Colkitto,

River Clyde 16/05/2009 07:14:16
The Scotsman journo's are obviously having a competion to see how many times they can mention the £20 corkscrew in as many articles as they can ha ha

Not even the Scotsman can limit the damage to Labour by this fiasco !
93

urchin,

16/05/2009 07:17:08
Looks like Maggies bairns are ready to cut their teeth.
94

The Man Who Knows,

Republic of Perth 16/05/2009 07:31:31
At length corruption, like a general flood,
Did deluge all; and avarice creeping on,
spread, like a low-born mist, and hid the sun,
statesmen and patriots plied alike the stocks,
Peeress and butler shared alike the box;
And judges jobbed, and bishops bit the town,
And almighty dukes packed cards for half-a-crown:
Britain was sunk in lucres sordid charms. - Pope.
95

Phil C,

16/05/2009 07:40:58
Spot on Cameron! Talk about stating the bleedin' obvious though. The best thing about the expenses scandal is that it destabilises the union further. Labour have already done a wonderful job of promoting the independence cause with their dishonest, dangerous and incompetent running of the dinosaur we call the UK.
96

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 16/05/2009 07:41:38
All this has the feeling of an unstoppable juggernaut. I trust Alex, Nicola et al are ready. I am! ;)
97

Phil C,

16/05/2009 07:43:57
#108 Me too!
98

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 16/05/2009 07:52:15
Richard Taylor,Aberdeen 16/05/2009 07:41:38

The World is ready to welcome Scotland back from the status of a province to a NATION.



99

The Man Who Knows,

Republic of Perth 16/05/2009 07:55:01
There are two impediments to independence: will the unionist parties allow a referendum? What happens if the Daily Telegraph uncovers further dodgy claims by SNP MP(s)? I understand that at least one SNP MP (in addition to Angus Robertson) is very worried these days.
100

gus1940,

Edinburgh 16/05/2009 08:00:19
#69

'allowed' officials to shred expenses details more than 4 years old - more likely 'ordered'

I would be interested to know when this destruction took place.

A bit reminiscent of the accidental disappearance of the marked electoral lists from the Glenrothes by-election.

Who will rid us of this Labour cesspit of corruption?
101

Phil C,

16/05/2009 08:00:42
#108 Throughout the last 30 years I have found three main types of voters.

The 'can't be bothered' set form a big chunk and tend to vote Labour or LibDem if they can get off their backsides. They deserve whatever they get.

The 'passionate dreamers' are overly positive, wonderfully naive and feel that the grass will be greener with independence. They are now becoming more realistic as the dream approaches fulfilment. They tend to vote SNP and will deserve the benefits of their fight. Those benefits become clearer by the day.

Thirdly are the 'status quos'- (Down Down and all that!) This 'safe', stubborn bunch have a tendency towards self-importance and arrogant righteousness. These are the negative forces on our land and they tend to vote Labour and Tory. They are oblivious or blind to the benefits promoted by the dreamers. They deserve all they get, but sadly they drag everyone down with them.
102

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 16/05/2009 08:13:46
"Expenses scandal 'could tear UK apart'"

Here's me hoping, Would it not be ironic that this Union that began with Scandal and a bankrupt Scotland ends with a Scandal and a bankrupt England.

103

Jimmy Le Pie,

16/05/2009 08:23:31
Morning all,

Lovely day it is. Makes for a wonderful feeling getting up every morning and seeing this rotten and corrupt union tearing itself apart.

That's going to be some epitaph, Comrade Broon!!

The man who wrecked the Union.


NEW LABOUR SLEAZE-TAKING INCOMPETENCE AND GREED TO A HIGHER LEVEL.
104

Ananurhing,

16/05/2009 08:25:16
Could tear the UK apart? Doh! The UK/British establishment is imploding on itself.

Westminster's a laughing stock. The 10 o' clock gang of Europe. We have a sociopathic, unelected PM. The Speaker's being dragged from his chair. Porcine peers supended, Ministers falling on their swords, MPs near to tears pleading for their political lives, getting RSI from obsessive compulsive apologising. Politicians and bankers are social pariahs, Banks and public finances have collapsed, and we're all dependant on our children and grandchildren to get us out of this mess. We're going into an election where England has a choice of Tories or BNP. Not a Lionheart in sight.

Tear the UK apart???? It's like the death of a once bright star that peaked in the 19th century!
105

,

16/05/2009 08:25:43
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106

Roy,

16/05/2009 08:29:29
Let's hope David Crooked-Nose is right.

And still the self-rightious b*st*rds keep saying they have done nothing wrong.
107

urchin,

16/05/2009 08:36:21
The United Kingdom bit of a oxymoron.Scotlands people want a Referendum about the unity.If they choose to depart so be it if not so be it,surley its that simple.
Lets get on with it and put it to bed one way or another.
108

Anajinn,

Canada 16/05/2009 08:36:55
I agree with Ananhuring. What I don't understand is why people are not rioting in the streets. There are a lot of people who should be kicked out of Britain and the politicians are some of them. They should be kicked out of parliament at least. How shocking. The news has gone around the world. I hope the country goes wild and kicks out the whole of the British parliament and gets replacements with some integrity. It's apalling.
109

Temple,

Italy 16/05/2009 08:39:51
"I say this: I know you're angry with Westminster's politicians. But a vote for the SNP puts our Union at risk."
====================================================
Mr.Cameron : mind the business at your " home " before thinking about the other business .

Finally these European election will be the end after 10 years of total failure of the left parties
110

,

16/05/2009 08:43:01
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111

,

16/05/2009 08:44:24
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112

Stan Butler,

16/05/2009 08:45:59


How many MPs does the SNP have?

How long have each of them been at Westminster?

Are SNP politicians morally superior to other brands?

Are they less corrupt, less greedy?

Or have thy less opportunity to be corrupt?

113

JG,

Fife 16/05/2009 08:48:45
It makes you wonder what they all spend their actual salaries on.
There is no difference between any of the political parties, they have ALL made over inflated claims - including Salmond and his cohorts. Don't kid yourselves. The only thing is, some of them have claimed for things (like the guy with paid-off mortgage) they were not actuallt entitled to. That would qualify as fraud in anyone's book. How long do you think your jail sentence would be if you'd fraudulently claimed a five figure sum off the social?
114

Humphrey,

Eastleigh 16/05/2009 08:50:43
My corkscrew only cost £1-30. It pays to shop around.
115

The Creature from the Black Lagoon,

16/05/2009 08:56:43
Oh Dear, the SNP has been caught with it's hand in the till again..................

From the Telegraph.


"The MP whose police complaint triggered the cash-for-peerages inquiry tried to charge the taxpayer for his drinks bills, a chocolate bar and hundreds of pounds of "petty cash".

Angus MacNeil also attempted to use his expenses to pay for books, mobile phone calls and stays at the Union Jack Club, a private members' society in London, after he had bought a flat in the capital.

The Commons' fees office rejected the claims but did not withhold the entire cost of the Scottish National Party MP's drinks bills, which came to more than £90.

In August 2007, he submitted a claim to recoup £500 petty cash, with half that sum allocated to that month and the other half for July 2007.

By dividing the sum in two, he ensured that it did not breach the £250 limit, above which MPs had to provide receipts.

On the same claim, which totalled £750, he tried to recoup £152.58 of mobile phone costs and £42.50 for books. However, the fees office rejected these too and only £20 was paid.

In December 2005, Mr MacNeil, MP for the Western Isles, submitted 15 receipts for hotel stays in London, totalling nearly £3,600.

They included bills for vodka, soft drinks, cans of Heineken lager and small bottles of white wine from the mini-bar, bar bills, the cost of room service and £2 for a Toblerone chocolate bar.

Mr MacNeil's total drinks and mini-bar bill came to more than £70, but the fees office only reduced his claim by £43.49.

He tried to claim for beverages again the following March, but his £22.50 claim for "night porter drinks" at the Glasgow Hilton was refused.

At the end of 2005 he bought a flat in London for £220,000, charging the taxpayer nearly £3,500 in solicitors fees and stamp duty and £834.26 per month in mortgage interest.

However, in July 2006 the Scottish Nationalist he attempted to claim for two nights' stay at he Union Jack Club, which
116

The Creature from the Black Lagoon,

16/05/2009 08:57:18
Angus MacNeil SNP MP in the UNION JACK CLUB!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

SPLENDID!
117

Grahamski,

Falkirk 16/05/2009 08:57:50
With almost half the SNP MPs now being exposed as having abused their expenses isn't it about time Mr Salmond followed the other leaders and apologised for his and his colleagues greed?
This is not party political. Every party have MPs who have sinned.
Going by the deluded nats on here it's as if the SNP MPs have acted impeccably. Quite, quite bizarre....
118

The Creature from the Black Lagoon,

16/05/2009 08:59:19
"Alex Salmond, the Scottish First Minister and SNP leader, last week said that MPs owning a second home was "dangerous" and property speculation lies at the centre of the expenses scandal.

However, the Telegraph has revealed that both Mr MacNeil and Angus Robertson, the SNP leader at Westminster, have used their allowance to fund mortgages on their London homes.
======================================================

DEAR OH DEAR!

What is Salmond going to do about this 'Dangerous' situation??

So, the SNP has been ripping off the taxpayer just like the rest of them.

Who would have believed it?
119

The Creature from the Black Lagoon,

16/05/2009 09:01:58
Mr MacNeil said that his petty cash and telephone claims were valid expenses, but had been claimed for under the wrong heading.

In the case of the telephone bills, he said he had not resubmitted them, adding: "I'm the loser in this carry on financially."

He argued it was unfair MPs with constituencies near London could see their families during the week, but he could not claim for the cost of a bunk bed for his.

Two years ago, Mr MacNeil made a public apology after it was revealed he had drunkenly kissed two teenage girls in an Orkney hotel.
====================================================

Hmmm mystery telephone calls, teenage girls and bunk beds??

I think the News of the World may have an exclusive story this Sunday....................
120

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 16/05/2009 09:02:06
124 Stan Butler

No Moats, no chandeliers, no phantom mortgages, no second home flipping, no £8,000 tellies, no £18,000 bookcases, no CGT evasion, no repairs to a tennis court,...........................

What’s the best the anti-SNP media can come up with?

A Toblerone chocolate bar and a corkscrew!
121

Grahamski,

Falkirk 16/05/2009 09:04:23
133
Ooops, you seem to have overlooked Mr Robertson's eighty grand on his London pad and concentrat on their low-level greed which you seek to laugh at! How could that have happened?
122

A Crofter,

Western Arce 16/05/2009 09:04:47
With a bit of luck, both Westmidden and Stonyrood will be rased to the ground, along with their Trumplicking occupants.

Best entertainment for years!
123

The Creature from the Black Lagoon,

16/05/2009 09:05:32
53 The Vital Spark,16/05/2009 01:10:23
The Telegraph is now reporting the SNP MP Alex McNeil
claimed £2 for a Toblerone chocolate bar - shock
horror !
=======================================================

Yes Traquir the £2 Toblerone is a major embarrassment to the SNP but as you can see from my posts above it is the tip of the iceberg.

Nice new name you have there.
124

,

16/05/2009 09:09:40
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Reason:
125

urchin,

16/05/2009 09:10:20
Those ready and forthright in their defence of Democracy,why are they affraid of a referendum,what have they got to loose.
126

Grahamski,

Falkirk 16/05/2009 09:10:25
137
The old chancer. Still he's not been an MP for years..
127

The Creature from the Black Lagoon,

16/05/2009 09:12:19
138 Charles Linksaill,Edinburgh 16/05/2009 09:09:40
=================================================

FAKE ALERT!
128

Fred Forsythe (not the),

England 16/05/2009 09:14:21
If the headline "could tear the UK apart" is true then the sooner the better at least some good will come from the greed of these corrupt crooks.
129

Grahamski,

Falkirk 16/05/2009 09:14:29
138
Oh look, there's another one trying to claim that we're talking about claims of under a hundred quid. What abourt Mr Robertson's £80,0000 on his London pad?
130

Stan Butler,

16/05/2009 09:14:44
#133 bully wee alba


And what conclusions do you draw?

Seriously.

What conclusions do you draw?
131

The Creature from the Back Lagoon,

16/05/2009 09:16:21
# 141 FAKE ALERT
132

Stan Butler,

16/05/2009 09:18:23

Is anyone concerned that this information was stolen and the thief has been paid around £300,000 by the Daily Telegraph?

Or is that OK?

I'm just trying to get some idea of the moral mindset of those who are so shocked and disgusted at the whole affair.
133

The Creature from the Back Lagoon,

16/05/2009 09:20:31
"With public anger growing over the misuse of taxpayers' money, Mr Cameron urged Scots not to be tempted to vote for the SNP out of anger at what was happening at Westminster."

So we are now being told what to vote!
How stupid are we scots, we should't be allowed on the streets after 7pm!

What a numpty! Seems that depending on what school you went to you are the elite and tell others how to think and vote.
I remember a long time ago that was called arrogance!
How time change he!

134

Jimmy Le Pie,

16/05/2009 09:20:58
Creature Rufus,

Word to the wise,

You'll need to be more alert today.
No more asking a question then answering it yourself without changing moniker!
Makes us unionist look sloppy, cheap and nasty.
We'll be accused of cheating next!!

NEW LABOUR SLEAZE - SLEAZE WITH STYLE!
135

The Creature from the Back Lagoon,

16/05/2009 09:21:48
# 148 EPH

What part of Scotland is Kent? Is that new?

136

Grahamski,

Falkirk 16/05/2009 09:23:07
147
People don't seem to care that the Telegraph have encouraged a criminal to steal then recompensed them to the tune of anywhere between £70k and £300k.
This isn't a selfless whistleblower at work here, it's a crook.
Incidentally the Telegraph have put on sales of around 100k - the kind of circulation lift usually associated with a very expensive DVD give-away.
Let's not get carried away, this is a commercial exercise with a nice wee chance to give Labour a kicking. What's not to love?
137

it has always been allan,

16/05/2009 09:23:26
Please don't forget that Gordon Brown is a man of primciples and golden rules.

He is also known as "Prudence"
138

Jimmy Le Pie,

16/05/2009 09:25:15
#147 Stan Tory Boy,

You're on your moral high horse???

Any thoughts on 'good socialists' privatising the Royal Mail and having to use Tory votes to get the bill through??

Any thoughts on 2 New Labour Sleaze Lords being suspended by the Lords (first time in 400 years!!) for committing a crime???


Well Stan, what do you think???
139

The Creature from the Back Lagoon,

16/05/2009 09:26:41
The SNP is the only party that takes this serious.
Labour, Tory and Libs are just trying to make it go away.
Unionists are just making a foll of themselves here when they try to accuse SNP members of the stuff their lot have done.

But, we scots are not that stupid. Just don't tell them!
140

Kenny A,

16/05/2009 09:27:47
Cant see many innocents in Westminister, I would however be interested in the MP's who claimed the least over the last few years.
141

Stan Butler,

16/05/2009 09:28:26


So far the one individual who has made the most money out of all of this, more than any MP, is the thief who stole the information and sold it to the Telegraph.

142

Grahamski,

Falkirk 16/05/2009 09:30:05
154

"You're on your moral high horse???"

Hey ten out of ten for chutzpah Jimbo, for a party to have almost half its MPs highlighted as having indulged in sharpe expenses practice what did the SNP do?
Apologise and rectify the situation?
Oh god no they tried to take the moral highground and claim that they are victims of the system.....
You could not make this up....
143

Don Roberto,

16/05/2009 09:30:35
New Labour Scandals
Police quiz Labour MP over 'bribe' - 19/05/97
Labour denies sleaze charge - 25/08/97
Blair Lies to the House of Commons - 19/11/97 Hansard
Labour MP in court on votes charge - 17/12/97
MP denies poll fraud charge - 18/12/97
Row over Blair's 'Murdoch intervention' - 27/03/98 Rupert Murdoch said he had asked Mr Blair to contact Italian PM Romani Prodi over a deal he was planning
No let-up in 'contacts' row - 08/07/98
Hague hammers Blair over sleaze - 08/07/98 for encouraging a "culture of cronyism."
Fresh questions in lobbyist row - 11/07/98 the connections of Roger Liddle, the Downing Street policy adviser at the heart of the cash-for-access affair, with Prima Europe
Tories step up cash-for-access row - 13/07/98 Mr Draper admitted being "boastful" about his contacts with the government, but rejected suggestions of improper behaviour... Fresh allegations led to more denials from Minister Without Portfolio Peter Mandelson, who used to employ Mr Draper
Robinson escapes with rap on knuckles - 16/07/98
Labour's top donors pick up key posts - 31/08/98
The Mandelson File - 23/12/98
Tories call for 'Champagne Jack' inquiry - 18/01/99 Has Jack Cunningham been indulging in high-living at the tax-payers' expense?
Blair escapes call to appear before 'cronyism' panel - 23/02/99 Mr Hart, 57, is the godfather of Mr Blair's daughter. He was appointed to the £73,000-a-year post, which was not advertised, in March 1998
Labour Scandal - Jaguar - 23/05/99
£11m spent on foreign trips - 19/06/99 The most expensive trip by a minister was made by Foreign Secretary Robin Cook, who travelled with 14 officials to the Far East in 1997 at a cost of £169,186
Hague attacks 'Labour hypocrites' - 07/10/99 accusing the prime minister of lying and breaking his promises
Brown accused of cronyism - 22/10/99
Robinson 'has scandal photos' - 23/10/99
Robinson 'gave to second blind trust' - 23/10/99
Minister denies destruction of evidence - 24/10/99
Inquiry into Do
144

The Creature from the Back Lagoon,

16/05/2009 09:30:39
# 157

That's okay, just wasn't the question!
But as you are a unionist, I know it's not easy to answer a question.

But you forgot "where I want"
145

Jimmy Le Pie,

16/05/2009 09:31:05
Maybe the Telegraph should be charged with upsetting the natural order??

Funnily I didn't hear many howls of protest when Damien McBride were using the Telegraph to spread poison on behalf of Comrade Broon to smear his political opponents??
146

The Creature from the Back Lagoon,

16/05/2009 09:32:27
# 157

Now I get it! Shame it took me so long!
Kent! - Second home allowance!

147

Munguin,

16/05/2009 09:32:34
The SNP are not “squeaky clean”?? What does that make the Tories then? So embedded in muck and filth that I have no doubt they will be at the bottom of the proverbial moat for many years to come. Does Mr Cameron not himself draw 2 salaries? One as an MP and one as the leader of the opposition? And when he is First Lord of the Treasury will he not then be getting 2 salaries as well? Good luck to you Mr Cameron being Scotland’s voice in Westminster and all, what a laugh! We are looking upon your scandals with glee Mr C you have so many of then its hard to see anything else at the moment.
148

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 16/05/2009 09:32:54
See the onionist trolls have arrived, just like their heroes, flipping - only their monikers this time!! :-))

Oh dear...;)
149

Don Roberto,

16/05/2009 09:33:09
Good grief the internet has finally ran out of space. The amount of labour sleaze has finally reached such epic proportions that the keepers of the WWW have decided to turn Greenland into an external hard drive.
150

,

16/05/2009 09:35:21
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151

Brodric,

16/05/2009 09:37:23
Politicians are more interested in party politics than the wellbeing of the nation. We have also learned that they are more interested in feathering their own nests than protecting the integrity and cohesion of the nation.

Likewise with newspapers who should be, but are not, interested in objective and accurate reporting with relevant criticism - in this case, moral criticism.

Its not only about who claimed what - which has shown us the awful extent of the greed that exists in those who would claim to rule on our behalf. Its also about the morality of it. I am deeply concerned by those who take the maximum. Surely not everyone needs the maximum.

I am worried about the relatively squeaky clean image of David Cameron and the Tory Party. He should also be judged on his maximum claim. What is going on here?

I am sickened by Cameron's rally to try to win in Scotland and wholeheartedly hope that this will give the SNP a chance to show their truth worth in Scotland. This quasi-power, though better than none, is really no power at all.

We need massive change.
152

Russell M,

Stirling 16/05/2009 09:37:27
Dear Mr David "The Union at all Costs" Cameron,

There is a moral vacuum at the heart of those who would seek to control the wealth and power of the "Union "at all costs. As has been demonstrated again in this generation even the cost of a peaceful world. The Union of England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland is far from the rosy picture of a benign and benevolent undertaking,. The reality of union is power, and control of wealth and resources, always stacked unevenly and unjustly in favour of small groups of people in the cities especially London.

Rather than fighting independence with all the resources a modern police state can muster thereby engendering radical ideas and extreme behaviour. Make the myth of English fair play and justice a reality. In the well-meant musings of a bunch of 18th century British ex-pats, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

The Scots are some of the most generous people on earth. What makes you fear our independence so much? Could it be oor industry, oor sons, and oor oil that the "Union" has so shamelessly stolen and squandered over the last century? We will be generous toward our southern neighbours. Not because we don't remember or are easily swindled, but because we have been generous since long before a united Britain was a glint in Agricola's eye.
153

JT,

16/05/2009 09:37:31
Since when did the conservatives care about anyone apart from their own kind and middle england? There are no parties who can claim the moral high ground on this issue. As for Cameron dictating who we shouldnt vote for as its not worth it, this is what labour told us to do in the last election and look how it worked out for them. This issue was the only talking point at work and each day just turned dismay into anger into disgust. We are now taking bets on what the next items are on the claims - open heart surgery???? (mind you they cant get brain surgery as they dont have one).
154

FTH22inarow,

16/05/2009 09:38:01
We can only hope it does, as for the Scottish Parliament there are plenty of flats available in Dumbiedykes and all within easy walking distance, maybe the rent could be paid to the council directly and maybe if you had to walk the gauntlet of the Public everyday perhaps you may occupy a place in the real World. As it stands at the moment we have to pay for 2 tiers of spongers not including the anachronism and insult to democracy that is the House of Lords
155

Ananurhing,

16/05/2009 09:39:01
Another day, another raft of embezzling porkers with swill all over their faces.

Meanwhile, the mutilated body of another 21yr old boy, Jason Mackie, flies into Brize Norton, having been ill equipped for the job we asked him to do. How many bookcases or LCD tellies would it take to properly kit out a young soldier.

And the porkers can't lift their snouts from the trough long enough to honour him!



156

Grahamski,

Falkirk 16/05/2009 09:39:18
165
"Are you trying to argue Martin’s corner that the public shouldn’t have been told?"

Not at all. As you know, this information was scheduled to be released in July. It was stolen and hawked around the newspapers by an agent of the thief.

This information has been used by the Telegraph, not in the public interest but in the political and commercial interests of the Telegraph.

Indeed, it is somewhat ironic that while journalists are happy to expose the tax evasion in the thousands of pounds by our MPs they are strangely silent about the tax evasion in the millions of the newspaper owners. Why would that be? Surely these warriors for truth aren't in fact hoors to the bosses?
157

TWC,

exLabour 16/05/2009 09:39:26
152 Grahamski

If it weren't for the telegraph these crooks would still be reipping us off.

The honourable ladies and gentlemen who are like us they say. So like us some of them are now going to go to jail and the people now know that they are liars and cheats.
The problem you have, like some of us before you, is comingto terms with the fact that most of them are Labour MPs.
158

Munguin,

16/05/2009 09:40:25
What great fun! One day Auntie Annabel is telling us to lay the ghost of Mrs Thatcher, that enormous Elephant in the Scottish room. And then Mr Cameron the Eaton Toff is here telling us the SNP government we elected in Scotland is not squeaky clean. I suppose that the Tories Scottish MPs are probably squeaky clean (so far) after all there is only one of them. Mr Cameron is going to run Scotland with respect (apparently). Even if you still only have one Scottish MP? Or even better none at all? Thanks for the sermon Mr C shame it’s not on the mound.
159

The Tin Man,

16/05/2009 09:42:11
Obviously, a clean moat is essential to the proper representation of one's constituents.

On a more serious note, expenses rules need to be taken away from politicians, who are obviously incapable of anything remotely resembling normality. Any profits made (including £4000 home cinemas, etc) need to be passed to the public, and they need to be prosecuted - quickly. Martin needs to be sacked, along with anyone guilty of fraud.

Thank goodness for the Telegraph, and honest criminals, rather than the criminals masquerading as politicians.
160

Morry,

Scotland 16/05/2009 09:42:51
The uk, in my opinion is already broken, Mr. Cameron as nice as he tries to be, cannot mend humpty dumpy and put him back together again.

Westminister is a disgrace and has been for years,
The sleaze and corruption of all the major parties are all to blame for the current state of affairs, I say that the Scottish Government are nothing if not open to scrutiny.

Alex Salmond has (in my opinion) been perfectly frank all round,
unlike his counterpart in Downing Street.

I say, Mr. Cameron is in no position to advise any member of the public in Scotland, given his parties record, historical or otherwise.

Bow out gracefully Sir!
161

Stan Butler,

16/05/2009 09:44:19


What percentage of each parties' MP's have submitted questionable claims?

Does anyone know?

162

An embarrased Scot,

Dundee 16/05/2009 09:45:58
I think the English will be well rid of us, In just about every area of failure there's a Scot involved, I'm for Independence but God help us. Ross
163

Jimmy Le Pie,

16/05/2009 09:49:04
Grahamski,

You said,

"Indeed, it is somewhat ironic that while journalists are happy to expose the tax evasion in the thousands of pounds by our MPs they are strangely silent about the tax evasion in the millions of the newspaper owners. Why would that be? Surely these warriors for truth aren't in fact hoors to the bosses?"

Remind me who brought in the NonDom tax system???
Remind me who allowed all the billionaires to live in the UK and pay next to bug6er all tax???
Remind me who has been the party of government for the last 10+ years???

Any thoughts oh wise one????
164

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/05/2009 09:49:09
Arrrrrrrrrrrrgh!!!

Now we'll all be put to the sword! How can sane people withstand the 2-pronged attack of the mad suicidal Unionist commentators, Grahamski and Rufus?

They attack the toblerone box with moats (sic) in their eyes, by the light of chandeliers, using trees (cut down by one of their masters) which were payed for with wads of money collected, illegally, from their fellow citizens.

Through the toblerone prism they see the renewal of the Great Union and the destruction of the aspiration of an Independent Scotland.

How can any sane person combat such an attack?

We're doomed, I say............doomed!!!
165

Grahamski,

Falkirk 16/05/2009 09:49:34
178
TWC
This information was going to be avialble in July. The Telegraph paid the thief so that they could present the info in as damaging a way to their political opponents as possible and make as much money as they can from that particular crime. Don't get carried away with this idea of the Telegraph doing it for any other reason then commercial and political advantage.
166

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/05/2009 09:49:45
181 the information was due to be published in July anyway. I don't think it's actually OK to encourage any more criminality in Westminster than already exists.
167

English Voice,

16/05/2009 09:50:08
"We've got what it takes"?

I am alone in finding the new SNP slogan, suggestive of self sufficiency, standing on one's own feet and seemingly against dependency, to be ludicrous?

I much prefer the New Labour version - "We've got caught on the take!"
168

brownlie,

16/05/2009 09:51:08
177 Grahamski,

I could not agree with you more in your paragraph concerning those who own newspapers but serious questions should be asked of those who set up the tax regime that enables them to avoid tax.

The same applies to the farcical tax regimes that allows "non-doms" to pay a flat £30,000 which then allows them to evade hundreds of thousands in tax.
169

TWC,

exLabour 16/05/2009 09:51:46
183 Stan Butler


Well if you are talking % in money terms it is Labour by a mile
170

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16/05/2009 09:51:46
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171

Jimmy Le Pie,

16/05/2009 09:51:56
Stan Tory Boy,

No answers to the questions at #154????

Privatising the Royal Mail with Tory Boys support, a bit hard to bear???
172

English Voice,

16/05/2009 09:52:00
189. Grahamski

great post, but word from the wise - words liek "the thief ..... make as much money as they can .." just remind everyone of Hazel Blears changing second 3 times in 6 months, buying a TV for each and then stiffing the Revenue for the cap gains tax, or those Laboru peers caught selling ammendments to UK laws..

New Labour - "we've taken all we got!"
173

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/05/2009 09:52:44
If the information had been published in the way it was supposed to be it would have been a victory for FOI campaigners. As it is it has been traduced by being used by the Torygraph for clearly party political reasons.

And no one has a moral high horse here. The SNP members are not squeaky clean. They only appear to be squeaky clean in comparison with the mud splattered dirt encrusted Labour/Tory MP's involved in this.
174

Geoff,

sa 16/05/2009 09:52:46
200 for the Union
175

brownlie,

16/05/2009 09:52:50
191 English voice

You are not alone!
176

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16/05/2009 09:53:03
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177

English Voice,

16/05/2009 09:55:29
200. great effort! And in five minutes you can ask the omderator to re-designate your psot to 206, sell 200 and fail to declare the income!

New Laboru - "We've got what we faked"
178

TWC,

exLabour 16/05/2009 09:56:08
189 Grahamski

Well I'm glad it came out now. the delay till July was to launder it.
This whole thing demands that Parliament be dissolved and yet even now they are resisting it.... why?

It is a disgrace, an embarassment to the nation and still Brown is dithering.

Call a General Election, Parliament has lost the support of the electorate.
179

English Voice,

16/05/2009 09:56:11
202. Jacqui Smith and other new Labour types will probably download that and charge it to the taxpayer!
180

The Tin Man,

16/05/2009 09:56:26
#190 Observer

"the information was due to be published in July anyway. I don't think it's actually OK to encourage any more criminality in Westminster than already exists."

Don't be such a wimp. We obviously have criminals writing the Law, which, in turn, makes a mokery of the Law. If someone wants to steal information that reveals criminality undertaken by elected politicians, then good on them!
181

The Creature from the Black Lagoon,

16/05/2009 09:57:03
191 English Voice,16/05/2009 09:50:08
"We've got what it takes"?

I am alone in finding the new SNP slogan, suggestive of self sufficiency, standing on one's own feet and seemingly against dependency, to be ludicrous?
======================================================

Too late. Salmond has already re-branded it to.......

'We'll take what you've got'.
182

Stan Butler,

16/05/2009 09:57:54

Don't forget that the thief who sold the information to the Telegraph will also have been paid for the various individual leaks made previously to other newspapers. Curiously they were all about Labour MPs. I suspect the thief supports the Tories.

Please also bear in mind that the information that has been stolen includes personal financial details of MPs employees. Doubtless that information also has a value on the black market.

183

The Creature from the Back Lagoon,

16/05/2009 09:58:27


No, don't! It's a fake!

Saor Alba
184

English Voice,

16/05/2009 09:58:32
206 "We obviously have criminals writing the Law"

Disgraceful slur. Those labour peers merely offered to change UK laws, for foreign companies, for £80,000 a pop - and as one of them said, that is quite reasonable as far as rates go.

New labour - "We've alot on the take!"
185

The Creature from the Back Lagoon,

16/05/2009 09:59:35

Am I being faked here?

186

English Voice,

16/05/2009 10:00:01
207. "'We'll take what you've got'."

Great post Rufus. The SNP plan to take Scotland's oil revenue and use it to pay mostly for capital projects outside Scotland must be exposed!

187

Ananurhing,

16/05/2009 10:00:01
Good grief! Yoonyinistas attacking a newspaper for showing political bias????? Perish the thought, eh???

At least the Torygraph aren't just making it up, a la Hootsman!!!!
188

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/05/2009 10:00:03
206 They didn't steal the information to expose politicians. They stole it to make money. Thus undermining the campaign to hold politicians to account.

I don't think I'm the one who is naive about this tin man.
189

SINGAPOREAN,

stonehaven 16/05/2009 10:00:27
I suspect that after independence we'll get a bunch of carpetbaggers much the same as at Westminster. The saving grace will be that, being a small country with a small economy, then the corruption will be proportionately smaller.
190

The Creature from the Back Lagoon,

16/05/2009 10:00:49
# 207 The Creature from the Black Lagoon,16/05/2009 09:57:03

FAKE ALERT!

Saor Alba
191

The Tin Man,

16/05/2009 10:00:54
#207

'We've got what it takes to delegate a record amount of Scottish legislation to criminals in Westminster.'
192

Stan Butler,

16/05/2009 10:00:56
206 The Tin Man


'If someone wants to steal information that reveals criminality undertaken by elected politicians, then good on them!'


So theft is OK?

You're not in a position to criticise any MP if you condone theft.

193

Don Roberto,

16/05/2009 10:01:48
Is there an honourable man or woman amongst them?


1. Douglas Alexander Paisley and Renfrewshire South Labour Party

2. Gordon Banks Ochil and South Perthshire Labour Party

3. Anne Begg Aberdeen South Labour Party

4. Gordon Brown Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath Labour Party

5. Russell Brown Dumfries and Galloway Labour Party

6. Des Browne Kilmarnock and Loudoun Labour Party

7. David Cairns Inverclyde Labour Party

8. Katy Clark North Ayrshire and Arran Labour Party

9. Tom Clarke Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill Labour Party

10. Michael Connarty Linlithgow and East Falkirk Labour Party

11. Alistair Darling Edinburgh South West Labour Party

12. Jim Devine Livingston Labour Party

13. Ian Davidson Glasgow South West Labour Party

14. Brian Donohoe Central Ayrshire Labour Party

15. Frank Doran Aberdeen North Labour Party

16. Nigel Griffiths Edinburgh South Labour Party

17. David Hamilton Midlothian Labour Party

18. Tom Harris Glasgow South Labour Party

19. Jimmy Hood Lanark and Hamilton East Labour Party

20. Adam Ingram East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow Labour Party

21. Eric Joyce Falkirk Labour Party

22. Mark Lazarowicz Edinburgh North and Leith Labour/Co-operative

23. Thomas McAvoy Rutherglen and Hamilton West Labour Party

24. John McFall West Dunbartonshire Labour/Co-operative

25. James McGovern Dundee West Labour Party

26. Anne McGuire Stirling Labour Party

27. Rosemary McKenna Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East Labour Party

28. Ann McKechin Glasgow North Labour Party

29. Michael Martin Glasgow North East Labour Party – Speaker

30. Jim Murphy East Renfrewshire Labour Party

31. Sandra Osborne Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock Labour Party

32. Anne Picking East Lothian Labour Party

33. John Reid Airdrie and Shotts Labour Party

34. John Robertson Glasgow North West Labour Party

35. Frank Roy Motherwell and Wishaw Labour Party

36. Lindsay
194

Fred Leeson,

edinburgh 16/05/2009 10:01:51
#184 An emb

Yes we can't even spell embarrassed.

Moving on. Sir Gerald Kaufman's expenses were a bit of an eye opener. £8,500 for a tv ( I didn't know you could buy one that expensive ), £1300 rug imported from New York with an import duty of $300. And £120,000 on second home allowances yet he said his second home was still a slum after all that money was spent and he wanted more money.
Oh and the usual misunderstanding. Demanding £1200 from the fees office for a gas bill that was £1,000 in credit. Even reading a gas bill is too much for these morons.
195

Don Roberto,

16/05/2009 10:02:14
36. Lindsay Roy Glenrothes Labour Party

37. Mohammad Sarwar Glasgow Central Labour Party

38. James Sheridan Paisley and Renfrewshire North Labour Party

39. Gavin Strang Edinburgh East Labour Party
196

The Creature from the Back Lagoon,

16/05/2009 10:02:32
# 213

Good one!
One paper in the UK that publishes "information" and it's a torygraph!
You couldn't make it up!

Hahahahaha

Saor Alba
197

English Voice,

16/05/2009 10:03:17
189. Grahamski

chin up, but I like the strategy of blaming it all on the press! Its not like we did anything wrong!

New Labour, New TVs for Old Second Homes!
198

The Creature from the Back Lagoon,

16/05/2009 10:03:51
# 219

No! There's no SNP amongst them.
They're all Labour!


199

Geoff,

sa 16/05/2009 10:04:17
Ha! take that meths!

Not as bad as what Osborne said yesterday but it is kind of a case of "He protesteth too much."
Despite his toff accent i like David Cameron and think(hope) he would make a good PM. I have always said that Labour have been their own worst enemy particularly in Scotland. Their treatment of the SNP administration has damaged them immensely. I know many of you are cynical of Camerons motives in Scotland but his undertaking to treat the Scottish parliament with respect is the most sensible and obvious choice. Gordon brown has better relations with the Irish government than he does with Alex salmonds administration!! No matter what the future holds I think that Cameron realises that it is in everybodys best interests-including his, to embrace the SP.
Having said all that,why did Cameron have to bring up the Union thing again? This abuse of expenses has been across party and UK national lines. Why keep making it into a Scots-English issue?
200

The Creature from the Back Lagoon,

16/05/2009 10:06:32

Any information on Murphys expenses?
I can't see him anywhere - no news involving him for a week now.
Where is he? No, he wouldn't abuse any system, not Jim - or would he?

Saor Alba
201

The Tin Man,

16/05/2009 10:07:04
#218 Stan from the Moral High Ground

"So theft is OK?"

Obviously, theft is a criminal act. In this case, I welcome it. Or do you believe that our elected representatives are more important than the electorate, and whatever they say, goes?

It wouldn't be illegal in a couple of months, anyway. But who can say if their expenses wouldn't have been 'sanitised' by then?

202

TWC,

exLabour 16/05/2009 10:07:27
07 The Creature from the Black Lagoon,

am I alone.....

Probably
Stan, the telegraph did everybody ec=xcept Labour a favour, Labour are suffereing from the truth.

That is something they have been avoiding, that is why in Scotland they concentrate on wee topics well away from any Scottish policies which might upset Gordon and get them a political assassination.

BYW whre have Morph and th the Balls gone? Heads down eh???


203

English Voice,

16/05/2009 10:07:29
224. tosh and twaddle.

Our great Britannic Westminster is the mother of all democracy and our Unionist rallying symbol! Of course the SNP don't have the grandeur and chutzpah that it takes to change second home 3 times in 6 months, buy a new TV for each and then flog one of the houses while saying it was your main home!

New Labour - new elan and flair for accountancy!
204

Geoff,

sa 16/05/2009 10:09:46
203 English Voice-thanks EV-I cant take all the credit-I learned how to snatch such great prizes from the best-my good (nationalist) friend Methalions the Lurker. Where the hell are you Meths?
205

John S,

16/05/2009 10:10:09
The MPs with claims up to April 2005 will be squeaky clean thanks to Speaker Michael Martin.

FILES detailing millions of pounds in MPs’ expenses have been secretly SHREDDED, the News of the World can reveal. House of Commons Speaker Michael Martin-at the centre of the parliamentary gravy train scandal-has allowed officials to destroy all claim forms and receipts up to April 2005.
That means dozens of MPs who have been able to milk the system for decades will now never be exposed. Parliamentary officials insist the shredding was “routine destruction” and not a cover-up.
News of the World - 02/03/2008
206

The Creature from the Back Lagoon,

16/05/2009 10:10:33
And litle Miss Moffat - the one who claims to have got beaten up and robbed on a Friday evening around 7pm in May at Cockenzie harbour!
Thank god they were so polite to leave her mobile phone!
What did she claim? Vodka? Gin? How many bottles?

So much to be reveiled, the Torygraph won't even notice a recession!

Saor Alba
207

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/05/2009 10:14:38
228.

How many MP's have been guilty here of serious abuse ?

And yet as we saw on Question Time there is a general assumption that they are ALL guilty. And the Torygraph has ensured that people like Clare Short have been tarred with the same brush for their own politcally partisan purposes.

This information has been released in an atmosphere ofhysteria. It is actually now becoming pathetic with calls for all MP's to be voted out even although the majority haven't done anything wrong.

This would not have happened if the information had been released through legal channels instead of being stolen by a common thief.

Stan's right - if you condone common thievery by civil servants betraying their employers trust for money (and nothing else) than you have no right criticising MP's. You're as corrupt as they are.
208

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 16/05/2009 10:14:42
144 Stan Butler,



The main conclusion I draw is that despite the trough feeding frenzy which appears to infect the culture of Westminster as a whole, the SNP members appear to be entirely immune from this affliction.

This speaks volumes of the standard of individual who is prepared to make the sacrifice of spending so much of their family life in such an alien environment in order to represent their constituents in a place many of us regard as superfluous.
209

JG,

Fife 16/05/2009 10:15:59
#147 Stan
"Is anyone concerned that this information was stolen and the thief has been paid around £300,000 by the Daily Telegraph?"

No, Stan, not really. I heard somewhere that a woman several years ago had noticed the crooked goings on with claims and guess what happened to her when she spoke up? Add up all of the shady claims over the years, and I'm sure it comes to more than £300,000. And I wish you would all stop trying to make your individual party of choice seem to tbe cleanest - THEY ARE ALL THE BL**DY SAME!
210

The Tin Man,

16/05/2009 10:18:32
#236 bully

The SNP have come out of the allegatons quite well, so far, but I don't share your apparent belief that a £4000 home cinema system is necessary for the proper representation of someone's constituents.
211

Fred Leeson,

16/05/2009 10:18:49
#226 The creature

I checked Jim's blog and his last posting was last Monday and concerned the death of the sporran. With a link to The Scotsman.

http://www.jimmurphymp.com/blog_detail.aspx?i_BlogID=184&i_PageID=112162

Hope he's ok. He seems a decent bloke but I wish he was batting for Scotland rather than London.
212

Stan Butler,

16/05/2009 10:19:56
#228 The Tin Man


So why are you so concerned about MPs dodgy expenses claims?

If theft, for personal gain, is OK what have they done that's so wrong?

Why the anger?

Is it because it's taxpayers' money?

Or is it because it's politicians who are involved?

I question the motivation of someone who says that one criminal act (involving huge personal gain for an individual) is OK but that dodgy expenses claims are a crime against humanity.

You can't have it both ways.

213

Virgil,

West Vancouver 16/05/2009 10:20:05
The lead story on tonights' CBC TV News was the British Parliamen Scandal. At conclusion the anchor Wendy Mesley threw out the question, "Could this happen in Canada" to which she gave the answer, "NO" and the reason being that all MP's salaries and expenses are Public Information and then she provided the website available to which the citizens of Canada can have direct access to the Auditor General. I relate this here because it came as news to me and others might find it of interest.
214

brownlie,

16/05/2009 10:20:14
218 Stan

Interesting moral question. If some-one stole the plans for a terrorist attack and exposed them saving hundreds of lives would that exposure of a criminal act be a criminal act?
215

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/05/2009 10:21:00
JG,Fife 16/05/2009 10:15:59 ''I heard somewhere that a woman several years ago had noticed the crooked goings on with claims and guess what happened to her when she spoke up? ''

She was retired. Jesus Wespt - don't you know this campaign has been going on for YEARS.

And the thief and the Torygraph have undermined it completely.
216

Grahamski,

Falkirk 16/05/2009 10:21:01
236
In your last two paragrpahs you demonstrate the utter hypocrisy of the SNP's position. Firstly they claimed they weren't involved in any dodgy claims. When they were exposed they then claimed they were victims of the system.
There is a systemic failure on the part of the SNP to accept responsibility for any of their actions. It is beginning to appear to be a major tenet of Scottish nationalism: it is never your fault, always somebody else's.
217

SianB,

Edinburgh and London 16/05/2009 10:21:44
"...another Tory leader without a mandate in Scotland...".

That remains to be seen, but perhaps he'll do better than Broon, a Labour leader without a mandate in Scotland, England, Wales or Northern Ireland.
218

Stan Butler,

16/05/2009 10:22:41
#238 The Tin Man

'The SNP have come out of the allegatons quite well'


Is that because there are so few of them?

Or because they have only been at Westminster for a comparatively short time?

Or are they morally superior?

219

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/05/2009 10:23:01
242 Brownlie there was nothing moral about the thief's actions. Would it have been moral if he or she uncovered a terrorist plot and sold it to the Torygraph instead of going to the Police ?

This information was going to be published in July. After years of trying.
220

English Voice,

16/05/2009 10:23:07
240 "You can't have it both ways."

Rubbish!

We in New Labour propose and support a £1 billion cut in public spending in Scotland, while opposing "SNP council cuts" and demanding NHS pay increases!

We in New Labour claim TVs for a "second home" then 1 month later sell the house while claiming it is our "primary residence" to avoid tax.

New Labour - having it any which way we want!
221

English Voice,

16/05/2009 10:24:22
246. STan

maybe just because the fiends haven't dabbled in second home flipping or sold ammendments to UK laws to foreign companies? Lack of imagination if ypu ask me!
222

It's me!,

16/05/2009 10:24:39
£16 billion to build another underground railway in London. Who says Scotland's oil is not being spent for London's benefit?

Jubilee line...

St Pancras.......

M25 .........

Euro tunnel ....

Could they have been afforded without oil income? And Scotland can't afford to upgrade the A9. Some union of equals. Not!
223

The Tin Man,

16/05/2009 10:25:42
#240 Stan, theft is theft. I think we all understand that the theft of the data serves the public interest.

"Why the anger?

Is it because it's taxpayers' money?

Or is it because it's politicians who are involved?"

Well done - you've got it - yes on both counts. I am sorry to hear that you are more angry about the data theif.
224

Publius,

Girvan 16/05/2009 10:26:42
Two points:
(1) #235 Observer. Clare Short may well have made a mistake filling out a form. Like you I doubt if she is dishonest. BUT she was in charge of a high spending government department (Overseas Development) which threw taxpayers' money at useless and expensive projects. We deserve government ministers and MPs who are competent as well as honest.
(2) The Malik scandal has a ramification that is only hinted at in the newspapers. Malik is MP for Dewsbury, a town with a big Muslim population. Malik pays only a nominal rent to a slum landlord of Muslim Asian origin. The landlord has a bad reputation. His generosity to Malik cannot be disinterested. This scandal will be exploited by the BNP in the Euro elections.

225

Stan Butler,

16/05/2009 10:26:56
242 brownlie


This isn't a Clive Ponting or a Sarah Tisdale acting on some high minded altruistic moral principle.

It's a thief who has stolen the information and has been hawking it around Fleet Street.

I dare say if the political parties had clubbed together and offered him enough we wouldn't have heard about any of this.
226

The Creature from the Back Lagoon,

16/05/2009 10:27:03
Anyone looked at the picture of Cameron above.
My dog looks like that when I ask if he wants to go walkies!

Saor Alba
227

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 16/05/2009 10:27:53
238 The Tin Man,


“The SNP have come out of the allegatons quite well, so far, but I don't share your apparent belief that a £4000 home cinema system is necessary for the proper representation of someone's constituents.”


Would you like to revise that £4,000 figure before someone points out that some Unionists have a problem with the concept of 10%?

228

brownlie,

16/05/2009 10:28:38
247 Observer

Do we know for a fact that the person who gave the information to the Telegraph sold it rather than being a moral civil servant who, being horrified and sickened by the abuse of public money by politicians, wished to expose the matter. I don't, do you?
229

English Voice,

16/05/2009 10:28:49
253. Stan

great post!

If only all civil servants paid from the public purse behaved with themoral integrity of our special appointees such as Damien Mcbride or Alastair Campbell, this would never have happened!

230

SianB,

Edinburgh and London 16/05/2009 10:28:56
Perhaps if Michael Martin hadn't fought tooth and nail to exempt Westminster from the Freedom of Information Act, spending hundreds of thousands of pounds on spurious legal advice, no-one would have had to have bought the information, but good on the Telegraph for ponying up the readies.
231

Soloman,

Stirling 16/05/2009 10:29:17
That £20 corkscrew!

I bet you won't find a corkscrew on the Labour MP's expenses sheet.













Bring on the Champagne!
232

Grahamski,

Falkirk 16/05/2009 10:29:28
243
I wouldn't be too down-heartened, Observer. We now have the opportunity to insist that our Westminster parliament drags itself into the twenty-first century. It is now the responsibility of all MPs across all the parties to acknowledge their errors and create a fairer, more transparent and democratic parliament for a modern democracy. It is the least the people of Britain deserve.
One thing I would say is that if the MPs had treated the public like grown-ups in the first place and explained that to run two homes (one in London) you need considerably more than £64,000 a year. This they didn't do, largely because they knew the reaction would have been like the one witnessed on BBC TV's Question Time with ignorant boors bellowing 'I pay your wages..' etc....time for everybody to grow up, I would suggest.
233

The Tin Man,

16/05/2009 10:30:48
#255 bully

You need to be reading the Telegraph. The £400 stated in the Hootmon article is a typo. Hootsmon the no!
234

SianB,

Edinburgh and London 16/05/2009 10:30:53
...and when can we expect to see itemised expenses for the Holyrood contingent?

Has the Scotsman enough in its petty cash box?
235

The Creature from the Back Lagoon,

16/05/2009 10:30:53
# 258
"....such as Damien Mcbride or Alastair Campbell, this would never have happened!"

Have their expenses been published yet? I mean all expenses?


236

English Voice,

16/05/2009 10:31:25
261 "with ignorant boors bellowing 'I pay your wages..' etc"

Yes, we in New Labour have long held the opinion that the electorate and particularly tax paying working class types are just the pits.
237

Grahamski,

Falkirk 16/05/2009 10:31:59
257
Yes we do. This info was hawked about Fleet Street. Media Guardian has a fairly comprehensive account of the selling of this info if you are interested.
238

English Voice,

16/05/2009 10:32:12
263. I think it already on the Scottish parliament website.
239

brownlie,

16/05/2009 10:32:28
253 Stan Butler

If this person was "hawking" it round Fleet Street or Wapping then other journalists must know the person who "sold" the story and it is very strange that the other papers, who are in direct competition with the Telegraph, have not exposed the culprit.
240

Publius,

Girvan 16/05/2009 10:32:50
#228 Tin Man; #240 Stan Butler

The high heidjuns at Westminster must know who got hold of the data and passed it to the Telegraph. The won't prosecute. They daren't even name him (or her). They'll create an instant hero.
241

The Creature from the Back Lagoon,

16/05/2009 10:33:12
# 267

He's been told that on the other board.

242

English Voice,

16/05/2009 10:33:27
266. Grahamski

great post!

We not a shred of evidence to support your claims, you have decided that someone sold the info?

Redtide.com! New Labour, We've got mostly what we have taken!
243

Grahamski,

Falkirk 16/05/2009 10:33:48
268
Journalists always 'protect' their sources. The hawking was done by a third party. See MediaGuardian.
244

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/05/2009 10:36:59
257 I'm fairly certain they did, Brownlie. They hawked it all over town anyway if you believe the Private Eye, which I tend to do.
245

Soloman,

Stirling 16/05/2009 10:37:11
Have these tax evaders been reported to the money laundering authorities?

Was Mr Brown involved in money laundering? £6000 handed over to his brother for cleaning!!

BREAK FREE
X VOTE SNP X

X INDEPENDENCE FROM WESTMINSTER X
246

Grahamski,

Falkirk 16/05/2009 10:37:24
271
From MediaGuardian:

News of the disk first emerged in March, when Sir Stuart Bell, the Labour MP who sits on the House of Commons commission, said the information was being offered on Fleet Street with a £300,000 price tag. He also confirmed a hunt had been launched to find the mole.

"All of the receipts of 650-odd MPs, redacted [edited] and unredacted, are for sale at a price of £300,000, so I am told," he said. "The price is going up because of the interest in the subject."

Benedict Brogan, the paper's ­assistant editor, declined to say last night whether there had been a payment. However, it is widely accepted that a conduit operating across newspaper offices had recently been seeking over £150,000 for the full disk, which reveals every expense claim by every MP over the past four years.

It was suggested the middleman, ­acting on behalf of a source in the parliamentary fees office, was peddling the expenses of cabinet ministers for £10,000 each.

While papers including the Times and the Sun refused to pay for the disk, the Sunday Express published details of the expenses claim of the home secretary, ­Jacqui Smith, using the same conduit.

It was suggested the Express subsequently did not pay the conduit, ­believing they would not be sued by the source. That prompted a rethink by the conduit and newspapers were subsequently required to sign a stricter confidentiality agreement allowing them to look at the expenses claims, take notes but not publish until they had paid money. As a result newspapers last night had many stories ready to run.

Those that refused to publish did so because they thought the ­information was not worth the price, improperly sourced or would be too ­controversial politically.

Most newspaper sources believed they would not be challenged in court by an MP or parliament if they published in return for cash, arguing that publication would be seen as in the public interest.The details of expenses were due to be publishe
247

The Tin Man,

16/05/2009 10:37:31
#255 buuly

Oops, sorry, £400 it is. £2,324 for a bed, though!
248

TWC,

exLabour 16/05/2009 10:39:05
261 Grahamski,

The QT audience were quite right Beckett was arrogant and unrepentent and that was the wrong way to treat them.

If she'd gone in the way she came out -- she might have come out the way she went in.
249

Grahamski,

Falkirk 16/05/2009 10:40:16
275.
Continued...

Most newspaper sources believed they would not be challenged in court by an MP or parliament if they published in return for cash, arguing that publication would be seen as in the public interest.The details of expenses were due to be published by the parliament in July ­following a successful Freedom of ­Information Act claim.


Any time you want to apologise...sorry I forgot, you have every nats' 'It wisna me' dispensation so don't need to apologise for anything....
250

brownlie,

16/05/2009 10:40:21
272

Why would other journalists protect the Telegraph's sources? Surely it would be to the advantage of our investigative journalists to put extreme pressure on the "third party" by naming and shaming that person(s)?
251

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/05/2009 10:40:54
256 I suspect people are using this to vent their frustrations about the Labour Party too.

But two wrongs don't make a right. Whoever sold that disc was wrong. And most importantly of all they undermined the decent people who have been toiling away for years - unpaid - to get access to this information legally.
252

Grahamski,

Falkirk 16/05/2009 10:42:55
279
How naive are you, exactly?
253

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 16/05/2009 10:44:08
262 The Tin Man,

“You need to be reading the Telegraph. The £400 stated in the Hootmon article is a typo. Hootsmon the no!”



First rule of blogging, check your sources:



From the Daily Telegraph:

“Last year, he claimed £400 for a “home cinema system”, according to the receipt. The Fees office wrote to him to ask if the expenditure was necessary. “We are, therefore, required to ask you to reconsider the amount you are claiming for this item.”
Mr Robertson wrote to the fees office to say that DVD player and recorder “was purchased to catch up with recorded political programmes and also has a built in radio function.”
The fees office paid the £400 claim”

You are not too bright are you?

254

SianB,

Edinburgh and London 16/05/2009 10:45:37
The information was scheduled to be released later this year. The Telegraph chose to pay for it to be able to release it early - and perhaps just as well that they did.

Who knows what would have found its way, accidentally on purpose, to the shredder otherwise, a la Bliar's expenses.

255

Soloman,

Stirling 16/05/2009 10:46:04
Expenses scandal 'could tear UK apart'





The Tories in Westminster followed by New Labour have Torn The UK Apart!


X BREAK FREE X

X VOTE SNP X
256

The Tin Man,

16/05/2009 10:48:15
Bully - see #276. Anyway, I dont think we sould be wasting our time defending the reptiles.
257

Grahamski,

Falkirk 16/05/2009 10:49:05
283,
What I am suggesting is that it is bad for democracy to allow a rightwing newspaper the chance to decide what information is released when it is released and how it is presented. This allows an unelected body to control the dissemination of information we all own in such a prejudicial way which it uses for its own political and commercial advantage.
258

SianB,

Edinburgh and London 16/05/2009 10:49:07
Looking at some of the MSPs expenses on the Scottish Parliament site (Sheridan and Foulkes for 2007/8) I wonder why the Scotsman chooses to focus on a Labour member's £20 corkscrew when there is abundant, free material there for the mining.

Why would Foulkes need a member's mobile telephone AND a Blackberry. Did Tommy Sheridan find it absolutely essential to spend over £1,000 on two member's telephones within three months? The Hootsmon could be busy for weeks.
259

Stan Butler,

16/05/2009 10:49:57


The thief is unlikely to be a civil servant.

The processing of the information was outsourced to the private sector.

That's where you will find the thief.

260

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 16/05/2009 10:50:10
Grahamski,Falkirk 16/05/2009 10:40:16

"The details of expenses were due to be published by the parliament in July"

Not if Martin was given the resources to shred the evidence.

261

Grahamski,

Falkirk 16/05/2009 10:50:40
284
Don't be naive. The Telegraph paid so that they would be able to be in control of what, when and how it was released.
262

The Tin Man,

16/05/2009 10:50:48
#287 Grahski

Better to have moat-cleaning described as 'home upkeep', perhaps?
263

Grahamski,

Falkirk 16/05/2009 10:51:42
290
That's just not true.
264

TWC,

exLabour 16/05/2009 10:51:57
283 Labour lies

What Grahamski is saying is that it is unfair that Labour are the worst Party for sleaze and it is unfair that they have been found out and it is unfair that because iof their MPs thePARTY has been damaged irreparably(spelling?)
The Elction is now un avoidable and Labour will be lucky to take double figure seats in Scotland.
265

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/05/2009 10:52:11
283 This is a culmination of years of hard slog getting this information into the open. It's actually not at all likely that they would have interfered with the facts. The people who have been pursuing this know exactly what they expect to find. It's not credible that the Parliamentary authorities would hide it from them. That's taking things a bit too far and there would be immediate redress. People would go to jail if that had happened.
266

Grahamski,

Falkirk 16/05/2009 10:52:18
292
What on earth are you wittering about?
267

The Tin Man,

16/05/2009 10:52:48
#288 SianB

I am not too sure why you are mentioning Foulks' MSP expenses - aren't they the second lowest after Margo's?
268

Grahamski,

Falkirk 16/05/2009 10:53:16
294
Where have I said this?
269

brownlie,

16/05/2009 10:53:33
281

Not naive enough to think that journalists would not expose anyone in anyway connected with the leaking of this information but probably naive enough to debate with a brick wall.
270

tinman123,

newcastle 16/05/2009 10:54:41
what these MP's are doing is criminal. So it makes it better if "oh we have been found out lets pay it back" its still fraud. So a bank robber steals thousands from the bank, but gives it back, does that let him off from robbing the bank, i dont think so!!! Its fraud simple as and they should be charged and sentenced for that. This country has gone to the dogs through pure greed from these MP's that are ment to be doing as we say the paying public!!!!
271

The Tin Man,

16/05/2009 10:55:38
#296 Grahamski

"What on earth are you wittering about?"

You are saying that you trust MP's to present their expenses in a completely transparent manner, when left to their own devices? Unfortunately, I see little evidence to support your optimism.
272

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/05/2009 10:55:41
287 Grahamski
"What I am suggesting is that it is bad for democracy to allow a rightwing newspaper the chance to decide what information is released when it is released and how it is presented."

Is it OK then for a paper for a paper whose political stance is more akin to yours to do so? You appear to be suggesting a form of censorship that would only apply to what you describe as "rightwing" papers.
273

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/05/2009 10:55:51
294 they were always going to get found out, eventually. Ever since the FOI laws came in it was inevitable.

That's what makes the behaviour of certain MP's unbelievable. It's as if they were behaving like ostriches, burying their heads in the sand and hoping it would never happen.
274

Ananurhing,

16/05/2009 10:57:30
Mick Martin was waging his own class war.Spending hundreds of thousands trying to shield the troughing classes from FOI, and hide their excesses from us, their paymasters.
He determined the rules of engagement i.e. underhand. Thankfully there are still some English newspapers capable of investigative journalism.

Should Bernstein and Woodward of the Washington Post have turned down the Watergate tapes because of the way they were obtained?

No? I didn't think so!
275

Grahamski,

Falkirk 16/05/2009 10:57:36
300
That's just not true. The vast majority of these claims are within the rules no matter how outrageous they seem to be. The last thing we need is for the police to become involved in politics.
The public is not impotent. In the next year we will all have the opportunity to decide who should represent us.
276

SianB,

16/05/2009 10:57:43
Foulkes last year claimed £54,527 in allowances as a member of the upper chamber at Westminster, for 94 days' work.

Plus £52k from Holyrood in salary, with further allowances on top.

Presumably there is no duplication?



277

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/05/2009 10:59:00
301 They are not left to their own devices. They are subject to the law and the information commissioner.

Or do you think that Holyrood MSP's are ''left to their own devices'' and can hide whatever they wish ?
278

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 16/05/2009 10:59:06
Grahamski,Falkirk 16/05/2009 10:51:42

290 That's just not true.

OH YES IT IS!
279

Grahamski,

16/05/2009 10:59:19
301
"You are saying that you trust MP's to present their expenses in a completely transparent manner, "

When did I say this?
280

Don Roberto,

16/05/2009 10:59:22
The Thirty-Nine Stumps...

http://the-universality-of-cheese.blogspot.com/2009/05/scottish-labour-honourable-members-aka.html
281

Grahamski,

16/05/2009 11:00:26
302
I take your point. The fact it was a right wing paper is indeed superfluous.
282

The Tin Man,

16/05/2009 11:00:28
#303 Observer

Unsurprisingly, MP's voted to exempt themselves from the Freedom of Information act.
283

SianB,

Edinburgh & London 16/05/2009 11:02:20
"The vast majority of these claims are within the rules"

Pretty lax rules which Parliament set for itself and oversaw itself. And yet a significant number still managed to push the boundaries....claims for non-existent mortgages, claims for mortgage capital as well as interest....lying to the Inland Revenue.

Who even knows what was in Blair's expenses? They were shredded PDQ, thanks to good old Michael Martin.
284

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/05/2009 11:02:54
307 We would have reached this point anyway. I just think it would have been better to have done it through the legal mechanism rather than the rather tawdry way that it has happened. It would have been a major victory to have forced them kicking and screaming into the daylight, expense accounts in hand, that won't be happening now.
285

The Tin Man,

16/05/2009 11:04:17
#315 SianB

There is a difference between rules and morals. However, claiming expenses for a morgage that has already been paid-off is criminal fraud, whether the guy knew what he was doing, or not.
286

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/05/2009 11:04:40
313 Erm yes that is what the legal action has been about. The MP's lost.
287

The Breakfast Blob,

Lord Lucan,s old video cabinet 16/05/2009 11:06:17
Funny how the onionists are always first to comment and last to get the point. The more fear and loathing you try to make people feel, he harder they kick back when their chance comes. Bring on the Westminster poll. Oh, and Dear English Voice - Keep up the good work for the SNP - The cheques in the post!
288

Grahamski,

Falkirk 16/05/2009 11:07:04
307
I agree.
289

MoiraMac,

16/05/2009 11:08:06
You know what Davie! I don't believe a word you or any other politican says. I think you are all a bunch of crooks and liars!
As for the SNP I think the people of Scotland should demand a completely transparent government otherwise this bunch of potential crooks could start fiddling big time. Today it's a corkscrew tomorrow it might be private jet! We have to keep them on the straight and narrow. It's our money they are scandering!

I would like to see all the scams going on in the EDC being exposed and all the ridiculous money wasting projects being brought to an end.
290

SianB,

Edinburgh & London 16/05/2009 11:08:17
Exactly, tin-man.

The argument didn't wash at Nuremberg, so neither should it now. Whatever their self-concocted "rules" allowed them to do, the majority were troughing because so was everyone else.

A minority were committing criminal offences which lesser members of the electorate would have found themselves in prison for.

Having fought off the FoA for as long (and expensively) as possible, and having already resorted to destroying evidence, I'm glad the info came out now, rather than later.
291

Fitba Krazy,

16/05/2009 11:10:03
What D Cameron really means is that all their pochling puts at risk them losing the oil revenue that they've also been stealing and they'll have to dump their nuclear waste somewhere other than in Scotland, not to mention the unfairness of the cheap holiday homes for them that we cannot afford due to 300+ years of this awful union fantasy they have that his robbed us of our self esteem and just about everything else which we are now hopefully recovered sufficiently from so that when we get the chance to tell them to F. O. for real we should take it. Not to do so doesn't bear thinking about.
292

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/05/2009 11:10:23
250 its me
Here we go again - more false and innaccurate complaints about expenditure in London. The govt is only paying £5bn of the Crossrail project. The rest is being funded by a special levy on London business rates and future fare revenues.

As the £5bn on Crossrail is transport expenditure, a proportional eqivalent is allocated to Scotland through Barnett consequentials.

Also motorists pay £5 in congestion charges every time they take their car into central London and this revenue is used for transport infrastructure.

Eurotunnel was funded by a private company - not the govt. The M25 has a toll on the QE2 bridge but there are now no bridge tolls in Scotland.

Perhaps, if the Scottish govt charged bridge tolls, congestion charges, special levies on rates etc. as is done in the London area, they could afford more for transport infrastructure.

Please find out the real facts before you launch into these regurgitated complaints.


293

tinman123,

16/05/2009 11:12:17
there all crooks!!! hold your head in shame MP's!!!! all of you. Now get these criminals charged!!!
294

Ananurhing,

16/05/2009 11:12:29
#322 SianB
", I'm glad the info came out now, rather than later"

Agreed! This way the people get to show their contempt come the June election, rather than having to wait till next year.
295

SianB,

Edinburgh & London 16/05/2009 11:20:51
George, the Congestion Charge is £8 now.

Dear old Ken found that the company he brought in to run the scheme, Capita RS, weren't making enough profit, so the the charge had to be increased. We're still waiting for the public transport improvements, but I hear that Oyster cards are a lot cheaper than they used to be.

Westminster & Chelsea voted a resounding "no" to extending the scheme down into their borough. Ken ignored them and extended it anyway.

That, and his plans to increase the charge to £25 for a goodly chunk of cars coming into the city helped get Boris elected on a landslide.

All the congestion charge did was to move the traffic jams into a ring around the centre, where jams and pollution are worse than ever.

Not quite so bad as ex_Councillor Begg's escapade with the M4 bus lane (claimed to improve journey times into Central London by 1 minute at peak times).

That extra 1 minute over 15 miles for buses and taxis, the millions wasted on the roadworks and the millions of car journeys affected by it round the clock has to stand as Begg's obituary.

Well, no....he's now up to his tricks at Transport for London.
296

Evan Owen,

Bywyd Cymru 16/05/2009 11:22:45
Politics is bust.

Regulation is bust.

The country is bust.

I am bust.

One unhappy member of the electorate who can't see the point of it all. Politians from Community Councils to the PM, even the EU are corrupt, amoral, without scruples... the dictionary is full of apt words.

Politicians created regulation which is also bust, banks fell between the regulatory gaps yet nobody has paid a price for being wrong, apart from the taxpayers, we don't even have a Welsh bank but we are paying for the monstrous greed and stupidity of the English/Scottish banks. The planning system is also bust, millions of youngsters have no hope of owning their own home because of 'regulators'.

Because politics and its creation regulation is bust the whole country is now BUST.

What a flipping shambles.
297

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/05/2009 11:23:36
238 tinman
"The SNP have come out of the allegatons quite well, so far"

I don't know how you can conclude that. There are only 6 SNP MPs at Westminster and at least two of them have had their expenses called into question - quite a high proportion.

If these revelations tell us anything, it is that members of a host of parties - Labour, Tories, Libdems, SNP, Sinn Fein - have been involved. I don't think that any party can hold the moral high ground in this respect.
298

Derick fae Yell,

The Setterday Hoose 16/05/2009 11:24:17
Empire's collapse from within: it's a fact.

The centre cannot hold. Good!

Suspect the Icelanders are laughing themselves silly at Titanic UK at this instant. And everybody else.

299

Derick fae Yell,

The canna spell hoose 16/05/2009 11:24:53
damn. a bad apostrophe
300

Brianwci,

16/05/2009 11:26:21
Expenses scandal 'could tear UK apart'


WE LIVE IN HOPE
301

The Strategist,

16/05/2009 11:27:42
#324 Ugly George

It's not £5bn for Crossrail....it's £15bn .

302

Grahamski,

Falkirk 16/05/2009 11:29:00
329
Actually three of them have had their expenses questioned so far...that's more than a quarter heading towards half of their eight MPs.
Of course Mr Salmond excuses himslef and his MPs and blames the system for making them greedy....
303

European Scot,

16/05/2009 11:32:05
317 The Tin Man

" However, claiming expenses for a 'morgage' that has already been paid-off is criminal fraud, whether the guy knew what he was doing, or not.

Quite correct, but if he ever dares to suggest that he didn't know what he was doing, then apart from stretching credulity, he would condemn himself with his obvious incompetence. That would beg the question what was he doing in a Ministerial position, and much more importantly, who put him there ?
304

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/05/2009 11:32:39
Observer.

I don't often disagree with your line of thinking but, on this occasion I must.

The expenses claims are being purged, at this very moment under the guise of privacy.

Due to this purging it would be nigh impossible to detect "flipping" or claims for non-existent mortgages - the genuinely criminal practices.

This, IMHO, permits the lesser evil of this "leaking".

To address the role of the Telegraph, yes, its motivation was probably political, but I have seen little condemnation of the political machinations on behalf of the PM.
305

SianB,

Edinburgh & London 16/05/2009 11:36:43
European Scot:

Funnily enough, that's EXACTLY what the former minister is saying.

He hasn't explained yet why he was also claiming allowances for an address in Southwark which he had rented out to another MP, which he also claimed under parliamentary allowances.

As the ex-minister concerned has "gone away", we might have to wait a while for a creative explanation.
306

Jimmy Le Pie,

16/05/2009 11:39:01
I wonder if any UK politico will be so keen to lecture the rest of the world on what is right or wrong???

Comrade Broon striding around the world, full of his own importance, telling all who would listen, how he alone foresaw the world wide depression and acting decisively, sorted it. Unfortunately the rest of the world thinks, like the majority of Scots, that Comrade Broom is clinically insane!!

NEW LABOUR SLEAZE - LAUGHED AT BY THE WHOLE WORLD!!
307

Budgie,

INCHINNAN 16/05/2009 11:40:06
I voted SNP at the last election, but the revelations about Alex Salmond and other Westminster SNP MP's abuse of the expenses system convinces me that the SNP is just as unworthy of my vote as are the other miscreants. As big a bunch of incorrigible, corrupt individuals as ever existed. Prosecutions can not come soon enough.
I shall exercise my right to vote, but I intend to spoil my ballot paper with the appropriate words.
Mr Cameron can rest assured that the SNP will be not rewarded with my vote. Neither, of course, will his party.
308

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/05/2009 11:40:38
333 the strategist
Please read posts properly before you respond. Yes the total cost of Crossrail is £15/16bn but, as I said, the govt is only paying £5bn of it with the rest, as I also said, coming from a supplement on London business rates and future fare revenues.
309

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 16/05/2009 11:41:36
334 Grahamski

I question the expenses of every MP who represents any Scottish constituency in Westminster.

Why are anyone of them there in the first place?

Return all powers back home, and forget all this nonsense.

310

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/05/2009 11:44:52
338 Jimmy Le Pie
"NEW LABOUR SLEAZE - LAUGHED AT BY THE WHOLE WORLD!!"

Hardly. The rest of the world tends to have its own sleaze to worry about. Look at Berlusconi in Italy or the corrupt political practices in Chicago.
311

Grahamski,

Falkirk 16/05/2009 11:45:13
339
Budgie,
Blame the MPs not the party. If the candidate for the SNP in your constituency is innocent of any mafeasance then you should vote for them if you support that party's policies.
Where the SNP deserve criticsm is their attempted ducking of their responsibilities regarding their inflated expenses claims. Mr Salmond should have done the decent thing and apologised for his and his colleagues' greed and rectified the situation.
312

Jimmy Le Pie,

16/05/2009 11:45:48
#339 Budgie,

Are you the full shilling??

What is the point of going to a polling station to spoil a paper??

And as for your claim that you're not going to vote SNP because of their role in the expenses scandal, if that is the case, then you're more deluded than you appear!!

NEW LABOUR SLEAZE - WE ARE THE CRUCIBLE OF CORRUPTION!
313

Derick fae Yell,

Da canna be bothered ta do da filing da day hoose 16/05/2009 11:48:08
Simon Heffer ida Torygraph:

"It has caused me some shame and great remorse that I illustrated my column last week about greedy and unethical MPs with a picture of pigs with their snouts in the trough. It has occurred to me that over the last half-century or so the pig has brought me – and, indeed, many of my friends and family – much pleasure: and as I drove past a field of the happy, smiling creatures last weekend, the comparison I made between them and the wide boys who think it is acceptable for me to pay taxes so that they can engage in property speculation, have their gardens made over (are you paying it back, Sir Alan?) or clean out their moats

came back to haunt me. The pig has done nothing to deserve this. I think I shall even demand that the regulatory body that MPs clearly need to keep them in order is not called Oftrough, however superficially appealing that might be. We must find a new species with which to compare our legislators, and all suggestions gratefully received. Meanwhile, and in the spirit of the times, I offer an unreserved apology to pigs everywhere.

Fabulous!
314

Jimmy Le Pie,

16/05/2009 11:49:20
UGLY

Berlusconi doesn't lecture the rest of the world.

He doesn't send troops to invade a sovereign country on a blatant lie!!

Whatever happened to BAE inquiry??

NEW LABOUR SLEAZE - WE CAN SHOW ZANU-PF HOW TO CHEAT!
315

Grahamski,

Falkirk 16/05/2009 11:51:19
341
bully,
I accept that as a seperatist you don't support Westminster. That is of course your right. As it happens I consider it to be in the Scottish people's best interest to be a part of the UK and as such I believe that we should play as vigorous a part in the democratic institutions of the UK as we can.
As Scots there is lots to be proud of the very significant influence our fellow-scots have played in making Westminster more democratic and more represetative of the people. Clearly there is still miles to go but I truly believe that good can come from this terrible and scandalous situation: a new and modern parliament for an exciting and multicultural, foward-facing and inclusive UK...
316

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/05/2009 11:54:07
346 Jimmy Le Pie
I am not defending Labour - merely pointing out that political sleaze occurs all over the world and that people in other countries will be more concerned with their own circumstances rather than spending any time considering Labour sleaze here.
317

SianB,

Edinburgh & London 16/05/2009 11:55:41
bully wee alba:

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but no real power is coming home to Scotland ever again.

If and when Scotland leaves the Union, Brussels will take executive control of the 25% of Scottish policy it does not already control.

The Scottish Parliament is a rubber-stamping organisation for European edicts. (See EU Policy of the Regions for more info).

Westminster can still exercise the UK veto on policies it doesn't like (to the limit of its dwindling sovereignty).

Scotland cannot. Didn't Blair mention that when he sold you the dream of freedom?
318

Derick fae Yell,

The amazed hoose 16/05/2009 11:57:51
Grahamski

jings! is that you actually engaging in debate, rather than abuse. Progress at last.

that said, the UK is fundamentally reactionary. Always has been; always will be. I don't know why, but that is the historical and current fact.

Best think I ever did, politically, was to tear up my Labour Party membership card and buy one from the SNP. Way to go!!


319

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/05/2009 11:58:00
336 I don't think the records will be being purged Frank. Especially as they have already been handed over.

Read this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/may/15/mps-expenses-heather-brooke-foi

that will give you the background to this and clue you in as to who is the REAL heroine of the hour - and it sure as hell isn't a common thief.

It is this lady. Who has toiled relentlessly to hold MP's to account.
320

Budgie,

INCHINNAN 16/05/2009 12:00:18
Isn't it amazing that these MP's who were wrongfully claiming mortgage allowances - in honest error as they maintain - did not notice that this money was being paid into their bank accounts. I wonder how many of them would have noticed had these "erroneous" payments NOT been paid into their accounts?
I am sure that those suffering this apparent lapse of memory would have had little difficulty remembering, had the Fees Office forgotten to pay any legitimate right to allowances into their accounts.
Oversight seems to be the standard excuse after these scoundrels have be caught out.
321

Grahamski,

Falkirk 16/05/2009 12:03:18
352
I find the concept of Scotland and England voting as seperate blocs laughable at best repugnant at worst.
Of course I shudder at the prospect of a Tory government in the UK - as do people in Barnsley, Liverpool, London, Belfast, Cardiff, Glasgow, Inverness...etc etc.
What I find truly nauseating however is the nats who are punching the air in delight at the prospect. They seriously think that Scotland suffering another does of tory cuts and attacks is a price worth paying to advance their narrow and parochial politics...for shame.
322

Fitba Krazy,

16/05/2009 12:03:31
#347 Grahamski, There is no such thing as an inclusive Kingdom. The word Kingdom means dominant force, so I would like to see the UK in the history books and an end to this domination ASAP. What's united about being dominated against your will and a historic, false entity being continually forced upon you? Particularly when the truth of it is denied and hidden? We are being taken for mugs and it's well past time we ALL became aware of that.
323

Grahamski,

Falkirk 16/05/2009 12:05:49
355
Yikes....when has a false identity been 'forced upon' me, dear? What truth has been 'denied and hidden'? Who is taking us for mugs?
324

SianB,

Edinburgh and London 16/05/2009 12:07:15
What's united about being dominated against your will and a historic, false entity being continually forced upon you? Particularly when the truth of it is denied and hidden? We are being taken for mugs and it's well past time we ALL became aware of that.


The choice comes down to Westminster or Brussels...which do you think we can best influence, and which offers Scotland the best opportunities?

I'm going for the one with the elected representatives - however flawed they may be, it's easier to do something about them than the endemic corruption and waste in Brussels.
325

Fitba Krazy,

16/05/2009 12:09:45
#356 Grahamski, you have obviously been brainwashed. Look up the meaning of Kingdom then. Just put Kingdom definition in the wee google box and see for yourself.

YIKES indeed.
326

Budgie,

INCHINNAN 16/05/2009 12:10:43
#344
I assure you I am, and I would not be as perverse as you are, by asking the same question of you.
You may not be aware that a "spoilt" ballot paper HAS to be counted. It therefore lets the political parties and their candidates what I think of them. That is the reason I shall visit the polling station.
327

KampungHighlander,

16/05/2009 12:10:50
#329 Ugly & #334 Grahamski

While claims by some SNP MP's can be said to be unseemly, none have reached the level where they constitute fraud.

Which is not something that Labour, Tories, LibDems, DUP or Sinn Fein can claim.
328

Grahamski,

Falkirk 16/05/2009 12:11:48
358
You're right.
I think I have been brainwashed.
Would wrapping my head in silver paper help?
329

SianB,

Edinburgh and London 16/05/2009 12:13:22
Erm....wasn't that Kingdom brought into being by James VI?

Are we just upset that the English eventually got fed up with Stuart Dynasty corruption and invited the Dutch over to sort things out?
330

Grahamski,

Falkirk 16/05/2009 12:14:42
360
Hmmmm..moving the goalposts, eh?

See the SNP? see ducking responsibility....

They've spent years whining about the English and girning and greeting that when their malfeasance is highlighted all they can do is....
girn and greet and claim it's all Westminster's fault(for Westminster, read England).
331

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 16/05/2009 12:14:54
#111 "I understand that at least one SNP MP (in addition to Angus Robertson) is very worried these days."

Yeah, they must be choking on their toblerones right now.

Seriously, I think these futile attempt by the North British media to tar the SNP with the same brush will backfire big time. It is so pathetic, the public already see right through it. People are really angry with the whole Westminster set up. What better way to punish those invloved thatn to vote SNP? I do worry what will happen south of the border though, because the public are in a mood for inflicting real pain on the political classes now and unfortunately there is no UKIP will benefit).

I do wonder if Cameron is trying reverse phsychology with us dumb scots, in order to reduce Labours's hold north of the border?
332

Grahamski,

Falkirk 16/05/2009 12:16:46
Anway football coming on...Gers v the Dons and Man U V Arsenal...now even you, Observer, must admit that's quite a feast of football, oh yes.....bye
333

Serbo,

16/05/2009 12:17:28
Observer@41

Where do you get your figures 1 person dies of hunger
every 3.6secs.Allow for 1 every 4secs thats 7billion
800million per year.
15per min
900per hr
21,600perday
151,200perweek
7billion800million per year.
334

European Scot,

16/05/2009 12:18:15
337 SianB

"He hasn't explained yet why he was also claiming allowances for an address in Southwark which he had rented out to another MP, which he also claimed under parliamentary allowances."

That being the case Malik appears to have few excuses.
Even after his 'creative explanation' finally emerges, whatever credibility Brown thinks he may have left as PM, won't be enhanced by reinstating this gentleman.

349 SianB

"If and when Scotland leaves the Union, Brussels will take executive control of the 25% of Scottish policy it does not already control."

As of Independence Scotland will negotiate its own terms of entry, and if those are not satisfactory, then there is always the option of following Norway's example.
Still trading within Europe, and co-operating wherever possible, but maintaining full control over agriculture and fisheries.

357 SianB

"The choice comes down to Westminster or Brussels...which do you think we can best influence, and which offers Scotland the best opportunities?"

On the World Stage, a non speaking part as an extra, or a character with an identity and a voice ? I'll go with the EU and the UN, where currently you can't see, or hear Scotland,
335

Brianwci,

16/05/2009 12:19:57
The psychological damage this mess is doing to the Labour grass roots support is immeasurable and cannot be underestimated.

Even if their vote were to hold up on June 4th (unlikely) it will be with leaden feet and out of pure habit and withering loyalty that the voters drag themselves to the polls.

Labour will suffer more than anyone in the UK and we could well see a reversal of 1922 for the Liberals.

It will be a long time before the Lib Dems have a better chance to replace Labour as the official opposition in Westminster after which time Government might only be an election or two away.

In Scotland of course the expenses debacle will simply ensure continued SNP success leading to Independence.

We are living history at this very moment. Sea changes are all around. The Union is coming to an end.

The future is Scotland. Enjoy.
336

Fitba Krazy,

16/05/2009 12:20:24
#357 SianB, What about the endemic corruption in Westminster. I think we might be better out of both like Norway are. It hasn't done them any harm not being in either of these corrupt entities, quite the converse in fact, what do you think about that then?

337

Budgie,

INCHINNAN 16/05/2009 12:20:59
#288.
Should you be referring to Jim Sheridan? Tommy Sheridan was a member of the Scottish Parliament.
338

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/05/2009 12:21:17
360 kampunghighlander
"While claims by some SNP MP's can be said to be unseemly, none have reached the level where they constitute fraud."

That is a rather risky judgement that you have made. Did Alex Salmond really spend £400 per month on food in London in August and September of 2005 when the Houe of Commons was not sitting. If he did not then he has claimed for expenditure that he did not incur. Is that not fraudulent?
339

Colkitto,

River Clyde 16/05/2009 12:23:52
Yet another Labour MP suspended !

WHERE'S MACAVITY ??????
340

Fitba Krazy,

16/05/2009 12:25:48
#361 Silver paper might well be better than a Broon paper bag, especially if you then stick it in the oven.
341

SianB,

16/05/2009 12:26:29
European Scot:
As of Independence Scotland will negotiate its own terms of entry, and if those are not satisfactory, then there is always the option of following Norway's example.
Still trading within Europe, and co-operating wherever possible, but maintaining full control over agriculture and fisheries.


On the basis of past performance, how good a job do you think Salmond & Co. would make of that? As they say, I hae ma doots.



On the World Stage, a non speaking part as an extra, or a character with an identity and a voice ? I'll go with the EU and the UN, where currently you can't see, or hear Scotland....

On the basis of the performance of the Scottish politicians running the UK since 1997, again, I have to say, I just don't think they're up to the job.
342

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/05/2009 12:27:20
366 Pretty well known figure Serbo. I think it comes from UNICEF.

More than 30% of the world's children live on less than $1 a day as well.

Kind of puts this shlt into perspective.
343

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 16/05/2009 12:27:43
#368 "The future is Scotland. Enjoy."

Apparently, the future of Scotland is balanced on a toblerone bar (if you believe this newspaper).
344

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/05/2009 12:29:39
366 I'd check your sums.
345

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/05/2009 12:36:52
379 what happened ? Did Eck spill your drink once ?

346

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/05/2009 12:36:58
#351, Observer.

I, like yourself, would like to see the FOI request bringing transparency, but I don't believe it will.

You say that the "expenses" claims will not be purged, but they are. Due to Speaker Martin's "concern" for MPs' privacy it will be almost impossible to spot "flipping" and payments for non-existent mortgages.

Reports of these will be under the simple heading of "mortgage interest payments" - no other information will be supplied.

Observer, I really do believe that you are being somewhat naive to believe that Speaker Martin's FOI compliance would have been transparent, particularly with respect to genuine criminal behaviour.

As far as "extravagent" expenses' claims are concerned, I do agree with you. There has been a feeding frenzy which is tarring all MPs, guilty or innocent, with the same brush. This is wrong.

#Grahamski.

I echo your sentiment about voting: everyone should consider the integrity of his/her Party's candidate before changing voting intention.
Also, spoiling one's ballot is an option which should be very carefully weighed, especially in England, as BNP supporters will certainly not spoil theirs, and the election of representatives of that odious party is worse than Westminster sleaze.
347

SianB,

16/05/2009 12:37:51
The UK is a net contributor to the EU. Since Blair handed back the rebate, our contributions stand at over £5bn annually - the oil revenues help out no end.

Salmond is banking on an "independent" (ie independent within the EU - see policy statements ad neauseam) Scotland becoming a net recipient of funding from the EU, like Ireland.

Problem is, you have the same second-rate politicians and an unreformed system they know how to play to their advantage.

Chances of a Norway model - zero.

Chances of the average Scottish voter feeling any real or lasting benefits? IMHO close to zero.
348

TWC,

exLabour 16/05/2009 12:41:11
The Labour war Cry

It's within the Rules

They are so used to doing what they are told they just do it. Similarly the policies they follow and their Leaders Battology Mantras they follw them to the detriment of Scotland.
349

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/05/2009 12:45:37
382 I have no doubt that the Fees Office and the Speaker would have continued to obfusticate. All I am saying is that I would have liked the matter dealt with in a more dignified way, and the credit given where it is due. That is not to the Telegraph. I think when we pass laws we need to enforce them - otherwise what is the point ?
350

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/05/2009 12:56:46
383 SianB
Some estimates from ther budget for the current financial year to consider :

UK net EU contrbution : £5.2bn
UK overseas aid contribution : £5.6bn

i.e. total UK contribution to other countries :£10.8bn

Estimate of total North Sea oil and gas revenue £6.9bn.

In other words the UK is expected to contribute far more to other countries than it receives in total oil/gas revenues - a situation which has been consistent for most of the last 20 years.
351

morris,

edinburgh 16/05/2009 13:00:20
The UK cannot be "torn apart" by anything.

It can only be a declaration of a wish to secede by one of the constituent nations,and recognised by the international community. Where this is democratically declared,it should therefore proceed although it will be a long process inevitably with pre rehearsed delaying tactics from Westminster probably.
IF Cameron wants to rephrase this to Westminster could be torn apart from what was United Kingdom's( but becomes Scotlands) Oil Revenues, and Tories in Scotland cannot impose their minority view on other Scots through English seats voting Tory,then yes ,there is indeed a danger of this .
Personally I do not fear democracy,which is more than can be said of any of the UNIONISTS !

Scotland decides who rules Scotland. At the moment she has a UK government and that is as it should be. Similarly when she no longer wishes it to be so IT STOPS.
352

steve52,

Kinfauns 16/05/2009 13:00:58
The first MP mentioned in this piece of so called jounrnalisim was a NP MP.....One would be forgiven in thinking that Maddox and The Scotsman had a hidden agenda.....not that well hidden one may add. Not one word about Mr or should that Saint Cameron fiddling his expenses and paying over £400 back....utter hypocrisy. Just anopther fine example of Mad-dox and the Scotsmans taking over from the Daily Record.
353

European Scot,

16/05/2009 13:03:25
376 SianB

"On the basis of past performance, how good a job do you think Salmond & Co. would make of that?"

I think that Salmond has been fighting with one hand tied behind his back, and yet he's been expected to put in a champion's performance.
Under the very difficult circumstances of running the Scottish Parliament against an extremely hostile environment, where the Unionist Parties have combined to defend the Union, and with a British State that hasn't exactly been supportive of
those seeking Independence, he and the SNP, have done reasonably well.
You also need to take into account all the propaganda efforts of the Media, running down Salmond and his Party, at every opportunity.
As for your last comment about the 'Scottish' politicians at Westminster, well I have to say I tend to agree with you, their performance has been abysmal. ( Of course Gordon wouldn't appreciate you referring to him as Scottish ! ).
All the more reason to break away from Westminster and give the Scottish Parliament full reign. Without all the negatives to encumber its efforts, I do believe the government of a fully Independent Scotland would be able to steer its economy, and benefit its people, far more successfully than Westminster.
There is a need for change, to start afresh, and staying within the confines of a Union which prevents Scotland existing internationally as Scotland, isn't the best way to set about that change. It's time to move forward.
354

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 16/05/2009 13:11:45
Budgie,INCHINNAN 16/05/2009 11:40:06

Why will there never be a CSI Inchinnan?

Because no one has any teeth and they all have the same DNA.
355

bluepict,

16/05/2009 13:13:39
Telling people who to and who not to vote for! Crazy!
356

Scotfree,

Erskine 16/05/2009 13:23:38
Let us not forget when commenting on the venal corruption of the Westminster regime that that their total annual income and expenses do not even match the total annual income and expenses of the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha family who sit at the pinnacle of this pyramid of corruption that is the United Kingdom.
The British post imperial system is cracking at the seams with a “constitution” (sic) straight out the seventeenth century and a government set-up based on a world empire with half the worlds trade unadjusted to an increasingly backward European state, 21st in the world league of economies.
We have the ongoing spectacle reflected in the banking crisis, the attitude to expenses and the treatment of elected governments where those in power are unwilling to accept responsibility and those who act responsibly for whom they were elected are sneered and dismissed.
Starting at the top, the Royal Family, the ultimate power in the country have had nothing to say on this crisis and continue their spendthrift ways with six or more palaces, their own trains and planes, even spending 6000+ plus on helicopter trips that should cost 6 pounds by car. No sacrifice from them yet they are ultimately responsible for the welfare of the state.
There is no reforming of this system, it is held together by corruption from top to bottom. We are, in Scotland, “fettered to a corpse” a vast milieu of corruption, sustained by Scotland’s oils wealth and maintained by the endless suppression of the Scottish people right to self-determination.
357

Jimmy Le Pie,

16/05/2009 13:28:29
Any sight or sound from Our Beloved Governor General, Comrade Jim Murphy???

Is he hiding because he's feeling guilty???

Is he hiding because he's plotting a leadership coup???

Or has Comrade Broon forgotten to tell him what to say???

Or is he busy shredding receipts and flogging of extravagant purchases at Camden Market???


NEW LABOUR SLEAZE - Taking Corruption to a higher level!!
358

Mèths,

16/05/2009 13:40:58
That's Chaytor suspended now. Cull some more.
359

Budgie,

INCHINNAN 16/05/2009 13:42:31
#390
Speak for yourself. Can't be rude to you, but some people may say that if you had a brain, you would be a halfwit.
Have you left the sinking ship?
360

The Strategist,

16/05/2009 13:44:51
Nobody has yet mentioned Lord Truscott one of two Labour Lords suspended from the HoL for apparently taking payments in return for influencing new legislation..

This bloke was once Energy Minister!!
361

Dylan fan,

Planet earth 16/05/2009 13:45:33

#390 Sounds like a personal problem..How long ya' been savin' that one?
362

SianB,

Edinburgh and London 16/05/2009 13:51:16
EuropeanScot:

If I could think of one Scottish politician in living memory, capable of uniting and driving the nation forward to the bright future Scotland is undoubtedly capable of achieving, I might feel differently.

My opinion of Salmond is that he is a parochial player, happy to strut and posture for his home audience but not up to the scrutiny of a bigger stage. His contribution to Westminster politics has always been lacklustre and forgettable.

When the Scottish parliament went over budget to the degree it did, our politicians simply blamed the most convenient corpse, in this instance, Donald Dewar. With that degree of incompetence, dishonesty and immaturity, where is the functioning political elite that an independent Scotland would need to function to come from?

The New Labour experiment from 1997 to date has been Scottish politicians' best opportunity to show us what they're capable of. We got deregulation of the banks and "light touch" regulation by the FSA, which helped emasculate our two biggest banks.....we got a costly war in Iraq that no-one voted for and was technically illegal.....we saw an end to most final salary pension schemes due to Broon helping himself to some of the money.....we saw a promise for a referendum on the EU Constitution which Broon wriggled out of by stating that substituting the word "Treaty" for "Constitution" meant he could just go ahead and ratify it anyway....and so on, and so on.

Broon is not a one-off. He's a product of the Scottish political system and, to a great extent, is the poster boy for it.

If this is the cream of the Scottish political crop, and this is the best they can do, I worry for the future of an independent Scotland in hands like those.

If we had a Mandela or an Obama, then I'd feel differently, but I can't see the Scottish political system coming up with anything near good enough.

So, until that wonderful day, I'm afraid it's the Union for me.
363

Jimmy Le Pie,

16/05/2009 13:56:59
And I see that New Labour Sleaze Lord Myners is getting a lot of flack for his gross mishandling of the bank bailouts.

From The Times,

"The future of Lord Myners, the City Minister who failed to block Sir Fred Goodwin's £16.9 million pension payoff, was again in doubt after he was lambasted by a committee of MPs.

The 14-member committee attacked Lord Myners in the third part of its report into the causes and consequences of Britain's banking crisis. The committee criticised the former chairman of Marks & Spencer for being too much of a City insider to properly police payments to failed bank executives and of failing to provide “adequate oversight”. "


NEW LABOUR SLEAZE - NOBODY DOES INCOMPETENCE LIKE US!
364

Jimmy Le Pie,

16/05/2009 14:01:03
400 For Independence
365

Mèths,

16/05/2009 14:04:02
Well done Jimmy!
366

,

16/05/2009 14:07:00
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
367

karin Mac,

16/05/2009 14:08:12
at least the snp can say that they are the only party that want to put a stop to any scottish MP claiming expenses or wages.
368

karin Mac,

16/05/2009 14:08:51
i note grahamski that you were too mortified to answer my question on which party you support. whats up ashamed of them.
369

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 16/05/2009 14:10:34
Budgie,INCHINNAN 16/05/2009 13:42:31

Scotland will be free soon. I'll be the first one home.
370

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/05/2009 14:10:46
398 what planet are you posting from hen ?
371

karin Mac,

16/05/2009 14:11:23
is it still sunny and hot meths.
372

karin Mac,

16/05/2009 14:12:27
398 ooh look an mp she has a second home.
373

Mèths,

16/05/2009 14:14:54
408

Indeed it is karin Mac. Out first thing along the coast for a leisurely breakfast. Back for lunch then after a snooze - relax. What a life.

(ps to Conan - did you get my email?)
374

karin Mac,

16/05/2009 14:22:10
all the kids are dancing to it now....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbt_PuVAVTU&feature=related
375

Mèths,

16/05/2009 14:23:57
SianB (re Salmond)

"His contribution to Westminster politics has always been lacklustre and forgettable"

Explain then his ...

* Lifetime Achievement Award/Outstanding Political Achievement award in 2000

He's won more of course.
376

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/05/2009 14:26:29
412 Cher from clueless doing Walter Mitty I think.
377

Mèths,

16/05/2009 14:27:28
"Alex Salmond who won Spectator Parliamentarian of the Year also won The Herald's Scottish Politician of the Year prize."

2007
378

karin Mac,

16/05/2009 14:28:59
412 hello col.
379

SianB,

Edinburgh & London 16/05/2009 14:32:21
Did you forget the other bit?

Less than six months after his party claimed a historic victory in the Scottish Parliament elections, First Minister Alex Salmond was last night named Scottish Politician of the Year.

Mr Salmond was joined by Prime Minister Gordon Brown, who was named Best Scot at Westminster, as the big winners at a gala awards ceremony in Edinburgh, organised by The Herald.


'nuff said.
380

Mèths,

16/05/2009 14:37:27
417

Didn't forget it at all. I'm just not interested in Brown. Got it?
381

karin Mac,

16/05/2009 14:37:48
417 yeah i think it is nuff said.

what is grdon browns personal ranking with the voters?

and what is alex salmonds.....

defo nuff said sweetie.

now close your mouth the flies are getting out.
382

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/05/2009 14:37:54
417 Please tell me you're joking ?

You think politicians performance is related to ethnicity as opposed to their actual policies ?

Maybe it works like that on your planet, but not on this one.

Brown is Labour. Salmond is SNP.
383

Serbo,

abolishtaxslavery 16/05/2009 14:40:35
Tony and Cherie Blair the greatest financial escape artists of all time,absolutely fantastic timing.
Bet their shredding machine is doing some damage to the
ozone all that smoke belching out of it.
384

SianB,

Edinburgh & London 16/05/2009 14:42:12
Ah, sorry...let me try to use fewer syllables and explain a little more clearly.

Brown and Salmond are both Scottish politicians and cut very much from the same cloth. Do try to avoid the distraction of party politics and consider who they are, what they actually do and what they are actually capable of.

Any award which considers (a) Gordon Brown to be best Scot in Westminster, or (b) Salmond's and Brown's contributions of equal value - or perhaps of any value - should tell you all you need to know.

Rather than ganging up into little tribes to shout at the opposition, why not consider what's best for Scotland overall? If that's too much for you, maybe best stick to 2nd divn football.

385

karin Mac,

16/05/2009 14:42:18
420 observor sian is obviously a labour supporter. she has the brains to prove it. non functioning....
386

English Voice,

16/05/2009 14:42:18
I find this quote from Michael Martin, re the expenses system, to be quite uplifting:

Speaker Martin: 'I didn't come into politics not to take what's owed to me "

New Labour - We've Got To Take!
387

English Voice,

16/05/2009 14:43:30
Some people go into politics for good causes, to stand up for principles, to oppose injustice. ALl nonsense.

We in New Labour got into politics "to get what is owed to us"

Avanti New Labour, Avanti New TVs!
388

SianB,

Edinburgh & London 16/05/2009 14:44:23
Observer, let me spell it out for you.

Scotland doesn't currently seem capable of producing any decent politicians. By any standard, they're a second rate bunch of mediocrities.

I'm hopeful we manage it one day, but I'm not holding my breath.
389

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/05/2009 14:46:38
422 I don't think anyone is ganging up into little tribes. I just think that people are flabbergasted that you are about the only person that any of us have ever heard from who believes that Brown and Salmond are cut from the same cloth.

Where on earth did you get such a bonkers idea ?
390

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/05/2009 14:47:37
426 so you are deluded and depressed ?

See your GP.
391

karin Mac,

16/05/2009 14:48:33
426 not holding your breath

oh go on just for half an hour or so.
392

SianB,

Edinburgh & London 16/05/2009 14:49:07
Is that it - is that your attempt at political discussion?

I'd stick to something simpler if I were you. Maybe shinty.
393

English Voice,

16/05/2009 14:49:28
426 "Scotland doesn't currently seem capable of producing any decent politicians"

Quite right. We don't have anyone of the calibre of Blears, McNulty or Jacqui Smith.

New Labour - getting what we are owed!
394

,

16/05/2009 14:51:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
395

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/05/2009 14:51:31
430 Do you perhaps know about home baking ? floral arrangements ? tapestry ? There must be suitable site for you to comment on because you know hee haw about politics. It is customary to have a rudimentry grasp of the subject before commenting you know.
396

English Voice,

16/05/2009 14:53:38
430 "It is customary to have a rudimentry grasp of the subject before commenting you know. "

Oh contraire. I refer you to Rufus as well as the itellectual massiveness that is SianB! Knowlegde of any given subject should not be a prerequisite to post 24 hours a day on the same! How elitist!
397

The Creature from the Black Lagoon,

16/05/2009 14:55:54
415 Mèths,16/05/2009 14:27:28
"Alex Salmond who won Spectator Parliamentarian of the Year also won The Herald's Scottish Politician of the Year prize."
======================================================

Yes and it has been previously won by Margaret Curran, Malcolm Chisholm and Andy Kerr.

SO what is your point caller?
398

karin Mac,

16/05/2009 14:56:38
434 col i think gordon may have had something to do with it check out his new grinning picture. creepy
399

karin Mac,

16/05/2009 14:57:04
434 link would have been good eh...

http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/Smiling%20Pig.jpg
400

karin Mac,

16/05/2009 14:57:59
435 aye ye had to speak of the de'il didnt ye.
401

karin Mac,

16/05/2009 15:00:27
436 did they make a whole person that year or is maggie curran malcolm chisolm in drag.

ahhh now i understand why we didnt see andy kerr and maggie curran in the same room
402

karin Mac,

16/05/2009 15:03:27
440 you forgot tony lbair.
403

karin Mac,

16/05/2009 15:07:47
sian i was joking about the bag honestly take it off now. i forget sometimes how labour supporters beleive everything you say.
404

,

16/05/2009 15:15:47
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
405

karin Mac,

16/05/2009 15:15:58
where did everyone go?
406

karin Mac,

16/05/2009 15:18:45
448 col i think the breath holding has worked.
407

The Creature from the Black Lagoon,

16/05/2009 15:24:50
Blimpy


2006: Andy Kerr MSP, Labour, Minister for Health and Community Care

2004: Margaret Curran MSP, Labour, Minister for Communities

2002: Malcolm Chisholm MSP, Labour, Minister for Health and Community Care
408

The Creature from the Black Lagoon,

16/05/2009 15:26:32
Ah Traquir is back.

Been writing any open letters to the Scotsman editor recently to try and get me banned?

What a pathetic specimen you are.

(watch him get this post deleted like the big baby he is)
409

Jimmy Le Pie,

16/05/2009 15:32:00
#448 Col

Forgot about New Labour Sleaze's very own lecher, Nigel Griffiths.

Where has the old pervert been??

Has he been too busy shag6ing to notice the financial scandal bedevilling his party?

I'm sure he'll have had more than his fair share of folding stuff from the trough!!

NEW LABOUR SLEAZE - SCREWING THE PUBLIC IS GOOD!!
410

GOODBYE LONDON LABOUR,

Aberdeen 16/05/2009 15:35:12
Labour and Tory:sleaze and more sleaze. Brown and Cameron know that Scotland is heading for Independence and that England cannot survive without being subsidised by Scotland.
NEW LABOUR=OLD TORIES=SLEAZE.
411

Mèths,

16/05/2009 15:37:17
436 Rufus type creature thingy

What's my point? Absolutely none my friend. Just answering some greetin' faced poster who gets her political info from Woman's Weekly.

(Go away - I'm concentrating on the Accies score. A draw keeps us up, or a win for Falkirk).
412

karin Mac,

VOTE SNP GET RID OF WESTMINSTER 16/05/2009 15:38:46
i see another labour mp has been suspended for fraud.
413

Serbo,

luthercalvin 16/05/2009 15:40:18
#392
What about that other corrupt hellhole run by the hitler youth papa joe ratz called the vatican, got the
whole world paying for that purgatory nonsense.
414

Mèths,

16/05/2009 15:40:37
Blast. Motherwell in the lead as is St Mirren.
415

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 16/05/2009 15:42:30
I notice a few of the Labour apologists on here getting upset that SNP supporters might be happy at a toty overlordship from Westminster.

I do not know how many times we have to tell you this "a plague on both yuor houses".

Both Labour and Tory Parties are right wing reactionary governments ruling the Uk for the good of "middle England".

They have no regard for Scotland , the regions of Engand ,Wales or Northern Ireland.

Therein lies the reasons you have Plaid , SNP , Seinn Fein , and now in England UKIP and BNP.

The majority of people outwith the boundaries of Westminster bubble are totally disillusioned with Westminster misrule.

Till such times as you get that through yuor thick skulls you have no chance of halting the massive swing to SNP in Scotland.

Changing the right wing Londoncentric party in Westminster will make no difference to the discontent.

We need root and branch change completely to the governance of UK if it is to survive.

The two partie concerned are too happy in their little
Victorian Imperial Palace of Westminster to ever want to change so Independence for Scotland ,Wales , and firstly the reunification of a United ireland are the only outcomes .

This expenses debacle has only