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Government set to take £50bn stake in Britain's top banks



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Liberal Democrat economics spokesman Vince Cable on the banking crisis
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Published Date: 07 October 2008
THE government is preparing to buy a huge stake in Britain's stricken banks to boost confidence in the economy as the freefall in global markets continues.
News of the drastic measure emerged after the UK's leading shares suffered their biggest ever one-day fall and as European governments failed to agree a common strategy in their war against the global financial crisis.

Under the plan, to be announced later this week, The Scotsman understands that the government will inject between £30 billion and £50 billion into the banks, with more to follow if required.

In return, the state will receive preference shares to be held for the duration of the crisis. The four key banks involved are believed to be HBOS, Lloyds TSB, Barclays and Royal Bank of Scotland.

They are understood to have agreed the capital injection in outline over the weekend and in further discussions yesterday. Indeed, yesterday's massive sell-off of bank shares leaves them with no alternative.

However, the move will raise concerns over the exposure of taxpayers to financial risk, following the use of public funds to nationalise the stricken bank Northern Rock earlier this year.

The FTSE 100 fell 7.85 per cent, wiping about £93 billion off the value of the UK's largest firms – the biggest percentage fall since the Black Monday of 1987 and the largest points fall since the index was launched in 1984.

No company was spared the agony, but the Edinburgh-based banks RBS and HBOS were among the biggest losers, with crashes of 20.46 per cent and 19.8 per cent.

RBS saw its credit rating brought down a notch by Standard & Poor's, the rating agency, indicating less certainty among key analysts as to its position. A House of Commons statement by Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, did nothing to ease the panic, as confusion reigned over what action individual European countries were taking to try to avert the crisis.

In the United States, the main Dow Jones share index fell sharply – further evidence that the American government's $700 billion (£380 billion) bail-out had not proved to be the silver bullet that many predicted it would be.

The Dow recovered in erratic trading to a loss of 369.88 points, or 3.58 per cent, to close at 9,955.50, dropping below the 10,000 mark for the first time since October, 2004.

At its worst point, the Dow was down more than 800 points, an intraday record – surpassing its previous record for a one-day decline, 778, which was set a week ago.

Underlining the economic devastation, a new report today by the British Chambers of Commerce will say that the UK is already in a recession, with business confidence, profits and turnover at record lows and unemployment set to rise by up to 350,000 in the next year.

The authoritative survey of 5,000 firms by the British Chambers of Commerce shows a worsening economic outlook and rising unemployment amid a "collapse" in confidence across all sectors of industry. In addition, the country's largest insolvency specialist has warned that more than 300 UK retailers are likely to go under in the new year, when banks cut off their lifeline funding.

Two arguments have made the unprecedented government intervention in Britain's banks an urgent necessity.

One is that they are unable, in the current chaotic conditions, to raise fresh capital from their own shareholders.

HBOS, RBS and Barclays have already raised extra capital by way of rights issues and shareholders would simply balk at a further cash request. The second is that the outlook for the global economy has nosedived over the past few weeks and banks will need additional liquidity in which to operate as trading conditions worldwide worsen.

Separate arrangements may be made for HSBC and the Spanish bank Santander, which owns Abbey and has just bought the retail operations of Bradford & Bingley.

Although they make the bulk of their profits overseas, they also have substantial operations in the UK.

The fine details have still to be worked out between government ministers and the banks over the next couple of days, but authoritative sources say that a deal should be announced before the end of the week.

Speaking to the United Jewish Israel Appeal in London last night, Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, said the government was ready to take action to prevent "irresponsible risk-taking" by banks and other financial institutions.

The cash injection will be designed to lift the banks' "tier one" capital ratios – the amount of capital a bank is expected to hold to allow it to absorb losses but still protect its depositors – from about 6 per cent to between 7 and 8 per cent.

Further help for the banking system may come on Thursday with a half-point cut in interest rates.

While the Bank of England's monetary policy committee will maintain its independence, events of recent days, and in particular the scale and savagery of the falls in stock markets yesterday, should compel members to reduce rates at the earliest opportunity – and that is when they hold their regularly monthly meeting this week.

Only two days after European leaders had assembled to find a united way forward, cracks were apparent, with countries taking unilateral action.

Confusion reigned over whether Germany had guaranteed to back all savings, after Angela Merkel, the chancellor, seemed to make such a statement on Sunday, only for sources to claim that she had not intended for legislation to be drafted to back it up.

Denmark, Greece, Ireland and Austria have given their own guarantees, while Spain hinted yesterday that it might do the same.

Iceland – hugely exposed to the turmoil because of its reliance on banks – teetered precariously close to total economic chaos, as its government belatedly issued a guarantee but failed to deliver a wider escape plan.

In his speech to the Commons, Mr Darling said the £50,000 savings guarantee would come into force today, and that the Financial Services Authority would look at raising the threshold further.

But even as he spoke, markets were tumbling around the world. There were no winners on the FTSE 100, which fell almost 8 per cent, while the Dow Jones fell below the 10,000-mark for the first time in four years.

"Another Monday, another banking crisis," said Manoj Ladwa, a senior trader at ETX Capital. "Just when the market thinks it has found a base level, there's another jolt to the system. Black Mondays used to be a once-a-decade event, now they're coming along more regularly than a London bus."


How financial crisis is taking its toll across the world – and what governments are doing about it

1. UNITED STATES

Congress has passed a £380 billion banking bailout.

2. GERMANY

Bailed out Hypo Real Estate bank with a £40 billion rescue package, and Angela Merkel, the chancellor, has offered a "political promise" to people that their private savings are safe.

3. IRELAND

Guaranteeing all domestic deposits in six main banks for the next two years.

4. GREECE

Government said it would guarantee all domestic bank deposits but stressed move was a political one.

5. AUSTRIA

Government guaranteeing bank deposits of up to 20,000 (£15,500).

6. BELGIUM

Fortis, in difficulty since it joined RBS in ABN Amro deal, is selling 75 per cent of its operations in Belgium and Luxembourg to BNP Paribas.

7. ICELAND

Government offering an unlimited guarantee on all domestic savings accounts. It came after trading in six of Iceland's biggest banks and financial firms was temporarily halted.

8. JAPAN

The Bank of Japan yesterday offered to lend 1 trillion yen against pooled collateral in an attempt to inject liquidity into the market.

9. INDIA

Local currency fell 11 per cent yesterday.

10. CHINA

Markets in mainland China dropped sharply yesterday while the Shanghai Composite Index sank 3.7 per cent.

Q&A: How new safety net for savings could benefit you

'Recession here and 350,000 jobs will go'

More than 300 retailers could go bust after Christmas

The full article contains 1354 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Rufus T. Firefly,

07/10/2008 00:05:39
Did anybody see Salmond on newsnight last night discussing the financial crisis.

He seemed to find the whole thing incredibly funny, laughing his way throughout the whole interview.

Companies are going bust, people are losing jobs and all Salmond can do is laugh.

What a great First Minister.
2

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 07/10/2008 00:14:42
Rufus. He's not a bad First Minister. Obviously the wrong party for you. But then again you seem to have that aura of someone who thinks they are in the wrong country.
3

Macd123,

07/10/2008 00:41:54
He made some good points I thought and had a plan unlike Jim Murphy.
4

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 07/10/2008 00:55:02


Rufus ~1,

The Man is always Laughing, speaks allot, try's his best to bring out, unpopular proposals, that angers many a Scot.

That's Politics for you, however, we are in for some grim times ahead, the USA have always been the,.....

.....'Engine of the Train'

When things go bad there, it has a 'Worldwide' knock on effect!

Being Dumb Carriages, is not a good posistion to be in, but thas the way it is!

BTW anyone found this site slow recently, or is it my PC,?
5

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 07/10/2008 01:06:44
Charles, think you will find that Salmond laughs at stupid questions and answers in kind.

Btw. Noticed DYW was attacked by drunks. Hope all is going to be well with her.
6

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 07/10/2008 01:23:12
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qqXPt35KoU4

There's laughing for you

But here's the reality for Labour and unionism,

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ac0CDpU44fA
7

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 07/10/2008 01:28:27

Jock ~5,

Not by "Drunks" but a person known to her, with that related problem, one that she however trusted.

On top of what she has been through, this was a Woman's Worst nightmare, her life is wrecked at the moment,

Thankyou for the concern and asking, I know the economy is on a downer, but that, one can cope with to a certain extent, like making, 'Cut-Backs'.

This situation I find ourselves in however, will take more time than the economy to resolve its self, than ours, if ever.
8

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 07/10/2008 01:36:28
Keep going, Charles. We can disagree on other topics another time.

Best regards.
9

Edward,

07/10/2008 01:37:31
Alx Salmond, Jim Murphy and Michael Moore for the Libdems all interviewed on Newsnight Scotand last night. The only one who was authorative was Alex Salmond, so much so that Glen Campbell made a point of asking 'enough about economics, what about the political side'!. Alex Salmond knows his subject inside and out. Glen Campbell tried to be clevr and was put in his place. Jim Murphy trotted out, countless times the 'Scotland and UK' phrase to the point it was getting embaressing and tried to talk over Glen Campbell.
10

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 07/10/2008 01:46:34

Jock ~9,

Ta for your understanding.
11

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 07/10/2008 02:24:32
What needs to be asked, especially at this time is where is all this Billions of Money coming from.

How much of it is being borrowed from China, and what is the total bill going to be. Northern Rock, Bradford & Bingley, HBOS, Existing Current account deficit through 8 years of mismanagement by Tony "the car salesman" Blair and Gordon "the Mentalist" Brown.

The three nations are now in a worst financial posiion than the days of Dennis Healey, Jim Callaghan and Harold Wilson. The only thing that appears to be stopping us sliding into DEPRESSION is time.

Globalization was and certainly is the WORST Road that the three nations could taken. Interlinking the World Economy is exactly the same as wiring a row of houses to the same source. If something goes wrong with one, all the houses lose electricity. In this case we are in the middle of the coldest winter ever, and we only have Electric Heating.

We cannot keep following after a proven failed political system down in Westminster. Right Wing Anglo New Numpties for a couple of Elections, followed by a couple of Elections of the other right wing Anglo political party, the Torags.

We only have to look at the previous fifty years to see that it is simply not good enough. Scotland needs to run its own race. We need to be a smart small nation which uses its assets in a way that is beneficial to The Scottish People.

After Independance in 2010 we need to set up a revised Scottish Constitution that allows the People to remove incompetant politician that make decisions that the people do not support. Gordon Brown and George Bush are both detested by their Country, yet Brown only depends on the support of New Numptie Drones who worry about their snouts in the rough more than they care about the people that elected them.

If one million people signed a petition demanding Browns Resignation, Brown would simply shrug it off and his cronies in the political system (Tory& New Numpty)would not make the slightest attemp
12

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 07/10/2008 02:27:20
Continued/

If one million people signed a petition demanding Browns Resignation, Brown would simply shrug it off and his cronies in the political system (Tory& New Numpty)would not make the slightest attempt to remove him for the sake of the country. The UK Constitution was set up in an era that revolved around absolute power for the monarchy. The political system was then formed around the crown and therefore promotes absolute power to the Political classes, who removed the functioning power of what is now just a highly paid figurehead.'

We cannot repair the UK, but Scotland has a chance to completely change and improve a new Scottish Political Process, fashioned for the people by the people.

Vote SNP and more importantly support YOUR NATION and YOUR PEOPLE. ITS TIME TO GROW UP SCOTLAND
13

Julian.,

edinburgh 07/10/2008 03:41:48
Charles,

I know it's a great temptation but you can't blame the USA on this one.

It wasn't US banks who loaned people in the UK money to buy homes and consumables who couldn't afford to pay it back.

And it wasn't the US who let banks like Northern Rock, Bradford Bingley and HBOS overstretch themselves with lending that far outstripped their asset base.

And it wasn't the US who kept UK base rates far too low in the "good" times and far too high now when there's absolutely no need for it.

Yes, the US has f*cked up over there but most of the problems here have been home grown.
14

doublescotch,

U.S.A. 07/10/2008 04:51:26
#8 Charles I couldn't answer you last night my computor is acting up. I was horrified at what happened to Suzanne. I am keeping you both in my prayers. I have all my friends praying for Suzanne. please tell her that and to not let this horror spoil her life. And the main thing Charles, Suzanne has you and that is the most important thing in the world. God Bless you both.
DOW
15

Dunnie,

Canada 07/10/2008 05:21:16

Hello DoubleScotch - Just learned the other day that my wife's great-uncle served in the HLI. Killed at the Somme.

Only got up to the cottage once this summer. However, the way the economy is going I might end up living there. Hope you are well. Cheers, Dunnie.
16

Rufus T. Firefly,

07/10/2008 06:16:44
#2 Jock Tamson

You had me worried there for a minute Jock.

I can categorically state however that I am in the right country.

I checked my passport and it definitely says "THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND".

I do get the feeling though Jock that you may be in the wrong country.

What is on the cover of your passport ?
17

Rufus T. Firefly,

07/10/2008 06:26:43
Salmond is a lightweight politician. i have no idea even why they interviewed him on Newsnight as there is nothing he can do to help resolve this crisis.

The fact that he found the whole thing so funny however was disgraceful.

Tens of Thousands of people are going to lose their jobs through this, pensions are likely to be slashed and people cannot get mortgages and he thinks it is hilarious.

What a shameful display by the First Minister.
18

Cappo Del Monte,

07/10/2008 06:28:42
This has been ongoing now for months and yet the french dont seem to be affected that badly by it, other than buying up the odd industry etc.
Just seem strange they dont seem to have any worries, now from a conspiracey point of view a great place to start as someone/ bodies are behind this a benefiting
19

Cappo Del Monte,

07/10/2008 06:30:57
#20

so you backing ninny broon whos helped get us into this situation?
Hes hardly a light weight afterall gorging himself on liebour and sleave party funds , feeding that fat gut.
Dodging by elections so as not to get another hammering. And now he enlists the stab in the back " friend " another sleaze and corrupt person, yup an honest party right enough lol
20

Rufus T. Firefly,

07/10/2008 06:35:49
Salmond should stick to;

Getting the chessmen back.

Trying to get the saltire flying higher than the Union Flag over Edinburgh Castle.

Getting football on Tv.

Making sure that Scotland has its own entry in the Eurovision song contest.

Donating hundreds of thousands for Islam fests.

Putting up traffic signs in Gaelic although no one speaks it.
Just a few of the things that Mr Salmond could be asked about on Newsnight Scotland.

21

Rufus T. Firefly,

07/10/2008 06:40:11
#22 Gordon Brown is the only one that can get us out of this.

He is the Prime Minister after all.

If Salmond wants to contribute, he needs to cut back on the photo shoots and make use of his seat in the House of Commons.
22

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 07/10/2008 06:43:29
I fear we may soon see how realistic these unlimited guarantees offered by some countries are. Icelandic banks are in deep trouble with trading intheir shares suspended. Iceland has offered one of these guarantees but as is the case with other countries they have left themselves with potential liabilities far in excess of their GDP.

Where are govts going to get the cash to meet these liabilities if the worst comes to the worst. Perhaps customers in Icelandic banks will be given a couple of cod as compensation.

23

Labour HQ,

Totally Embarrassed 07/10/2008 07:06:09
How far out of his depth was Jim Murphy on News Night. He actually managed to make Alex Salmond look good....no wonder Salmond was smiling!!
24

Evan Owen,

Snowdonia 07/10/2008 07:06:34
Would anyone in their rights minds buy a stake in these banks? Is the taxpayer being forced into equity participation in the very institutions which have been ripping us off for decades? This stinks.
25

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 07/10/2008 07:07:36
Those of us with savings might consider spending them NOW on gold or land.

The HUGE inflation just down the line will wipe out the value of money, but land and gold are usually reliable.

Learn the lessons of economic history!
26

Cappo Del Monte,

07/10/2008 07:08:50
#24
Is that like ninny broons photoshoots with all the euro leaders saying were all in this together and then them laughing at him and doing whatever it takes to save their countries and sod the euro union?
The sh*t hits the fan and all the union does is protect its own, solidarity my butt,and ninny spouting the union is best for us lol.
Hes a prime minister by default he was never elected in as such, he was a chancellor presiding over and getting us into this financial mess

#26 Away back to an English football thread and mind the soap
27

Nevsky,

Moscow 07/10/2008 07:09:24
Here are some things Browm should be concentrating on:

1. Record borrowing next year which will equal GDP for the first time (no more boom and bust hah)

2. UK now officially in recession

3. Treasury being emptied in piece-meal moves to shore up the markets

4. 2 million jobless predicted net year

5. UK national debt of £600 billion and rising

6. Scottish institution sold off for peanuts (Brown and Darling not even bothering to meet Lloyds to discuss it)

7. House prices falling, massive negative equity and re-posessions soon, homeless families


Bye bye UK PLC...down the pan you go....
28

Nevsky,

Moscow 07/10/2008 07:13:02
Nice to see bring them on and rufus finding comfort in each other, the 'beavis and butthead' of the Unionist cause in Scotland.

Predictions for Glenrothes boys?
29

Nevsky,

Moscow 07/10/2008 07:15:12
29 Rules#

Fancy a datcha with land in St Pete, they are very reasonable and are being snapped up by savvy Germans at the moment?
30

Rabhairt,

Cannons Creek Australia 07/10/2008 07:30:29
The Prime Minister of Australia has just announced a 1 percent cut in interest rates which is strange because last week he said we were borrowing too much, he has vertually ordered the Fat Cat Bankers to pass on the full cut to borrowers, I read that in the UK the government is buying into banks to save the day, the USA Govt is buying 7 billion worth of debts ???? do we have an ECONOMIST on this forum who can tell us what is really happening and what caused it all, Big Rabbie.
31

Ugly George,

07/10/2008 07:57:44
29 Rulesbutnotrulers
Was it Mark Twain who said "Buy land - they don't make it anymore"

The problem with buying land is that people are often conned into buying a plot on the assumption that it can be used for development at some time in the future but it turns out that there is often a problem that prevents any development and the land turns out to be pretty useless. Be careful.
32

Bigwull,

edinburgh 07/10/2008 08:06:59
And the tories will sell the government shares in the banks for peanuts just before the times are good again, thus making themselves and their city friends billions for nothing again. As if the tories would ever regulate the markets, they are their paymasters afterall.
33

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 07/10/2008 08:08:55
31 Nevski
"1. Record borrowing next year which will equal GDP for the first time (no more boom and bust hah)"

What is the source of this info? The most pessimistic forecast I have heard is that borrowing next year could reach £60/70bn which is only in the region of 4% of GDP?

"6. Scottish institution sold off for peanuts"

If this is the case, why does somebody else not come in with a better offer for HBOS.

34

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 07/10/2008 08:15:46
34 Rabhairt
"the USA Govt is buying 7 billion worth of debts ????"

If only. It is actually $700 billion.
35

Conan the Librarian™,

07/10/2008 08:18:31
Rufus T. Firefly.

I thought your country was Freedonia?
36

Nevsky,

Moscow 07/10/2008 08:21:18
Bust Britain from the Gov website:

An alternative measure of the public sector fiscal position is public sector net borrowing. This additionally takes account of capital investment. In August 2008, there was net borrowing of
£10.4 billion, which compares with borrowing of £8.0 billion in August 2007. The Budget forecast for 2008/09 is net borrowing of £43.0 billion.

Public sector net debt, expressed as a percentage of gross domestic product (GDP), was 43.3 per cent at the end of August 2008, compared with 36.4 per cent at end of August 2007. The increase was largely due to Northern Rock which is now included in the figures from October 2007, the date of its classification to the public sector; latest figures for June 2008 show Northern Rock adding 6.0 per cent to the debt ratio.

37

Nevsky,

Moscow 07/10/2008 08:27:04



It's official. With oil selling at $70 a barrel, Norway is now the richest country in the world. Per capita incomes rose in 2005 to £35,800, passing both Switzerland and the US, and way ahead of Britain (£21,000).

Norway not only has no national debt, it has a $210bn surplus in its State Petroleum Fund (now known as the Government Pension Fund). It is a country that will never be poor.

Like Norway, Britain also faced the prospect of its economy being transformed by the discovery of North Sea oil in the 1960s. And we would now be in a similar position, if the plans of Tony Benn, Energy Minister when North Sea oil first came ashore in 1975, had been followed.

Benn inherited a situation under which licences to exploit North Sea oil had been given to oil companies without any provision for any of the oil to be directed to







The Norwegians have no national debt, a $210bn pension fund surplus and no prospect of ever being poor

meet UK needs. His response was to set up the British National Oil Corporation, a state-owned enterprise, to ensure that the country would derive maximum benefit from the development of new oilfields and to press for a North Sea oil development fund.

Benn wanted oil revenues to be ring-fenced for industrial regeneration and not used to finance short-term tax cuts. He also believed that an oil-rich Britain would be in a stronger economic position outside the EEC.

Sadly, Benn's far-sighted strategy was abandoned by the incoming Conservative administration of 1979. The BNOC was sold off, with Energy Minister Nigel Lawson proudly announcing that the Government's energy policy was that it didn't have one.

Norway had the wisdom to follow the much-derided Bennite path of state intervention and will reap the benefit for generations to come. Britain meanwhile relies on a service-based, debt-fuelled economy. If only we'd listened to Wedgie.

38

Vox Cavalier,

Edinburgh 07/10/2008 08:29:32
Didn't notice any troubled banks in Norway in the summary.
39

cabrach loon,

inverness 07/10/2008 08:46:43
I understand nulab has put the UK 100 billion into debt already, so where is another 50 billion going to put us? I suppose Broon will start printing money like Hitler and Mugabe and God help Britain then!
The future exodus will be almost total! except for nulab - let them rot!
40

The Strategist,

07/10/2008 09:07:02
We should not be giving any support to the banks until they agree to change their entire management teams. There is no way we should be rewarding these people for their appalling behaviour which now of course includes squeezing the pips out of small companies by increasing the interest rates they have to pay. That's extortion.

Mr Firefly - you must have been watching an entirely different programme or you're a Labour troll. I didn't see Alex Salmond laughing on Newsnight.
41

Embra Don,

07/10/2008 09:12:56
Now that Rufus T'troll has gone, perhaps the debate can rise above the playground level he favours.

Have there been runs on the banks of any of the world's other net oil exporters? Is this a union dividend?
42

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 07/10/2008 09:26:37
Time for Mandelson to resign , first day in the job and biggest ever one day fall . What a Business Secretary .
43

Bob M,

Paisley 07/10/2008 09:29:02
#29 Surely a huge deflation is more likely?

No way will the super rich who are the governments’ puppet masters allow the value of their wealth to diminish.

Expect a deflationary spiral with prices and wages dropping. Once we’ve all defaulted on our loans the super rich will move in with their huge reserves of cash and clean up.

44

Homo Sapiens,

Elstree 07/10/2008 09:36:42
Invest £50 Billion in banks?! The worst hair brain scheme I could have imagined. This is an attempt to nationalise the banking system, and allow the government to have an input at Board level. The same government that drove this country to the brink (and will push this country over the brink into the precipice...). All this at taxpayer expense. What could a government investment in depressed bank stocks do? Restore confidence in the tainted industry? Not a chance! Any half witted investor will and should shy away from investing in banks in which the government is a major shareholder. Ask yourself, would you really trust a bank that has Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling or any of their lackies as Board members dictating the direction of that bank? NAH! So this will not boost banks fortunes (will scare away the few remaining shareholders perhaps pushing nationalisation even further).

The Government had/has many other much more effective tools to pull the economy out of the spin in which it put this economy. The first would be to stop depleteing the treasury of its reserves through useless cash infusions. It will ultimately only lead to hyper-inflation as the BOE will have to print money to cover the growing deficit. It should be enough to state that troubled bank assets (ie loans) will be insured by the government for a period of say 24 months. The cost of that insurance is much lower than actually piling the cash into the failing banks, and will send the same message. Together with a higher insurance of bank liabilities (deposits) it should take the pressure off bank balance sheets. Allowing the banks to "trust" each other, and restore "interbank lending/borrowing"

SEcond, the BOE should relax the "Bank Reserve Requirements" With an insured/guaranteed deposit base, there is no need for banks to hoard money (in case they have a possible "run on the bank"). With a relatively small reduction in the capital reserve requirements, quite a bit of cash could
45

Homo Sapiens,

Elstree 07/10/2008 09:37:15
Continued

SEcond, the BOE should relax the "Bank Reserve Requirements" With an insured/guaranteed deposit base, there is no need for banks to hoard money (in case they have a possible "run on the bank"). With a relatively small reduction in the capital reserve requirements, quite a bit of cash could be released for banks to start lending again, and kick start the economy again.

Third, the government should reduce its spending by 20% by reducing its "pork" programs, and "jobs for the boys" and "pet projects", and "electoral bribes projects" and stop building the careers of the Labour MPs on the backs of the taxpayers in this country. With the 20% saved from unnecessary spending, set-up Investment Funds to stimulate investment in manufacturing, technology development and market development. The inflow of money into the economy (instead of government "services") will create jobs, in the right fields and industries, and eventually provide a return to investors, namely the people of this country, and in time close the gaping black hole of debt this government created.
46

Nevsky,

Moscow 07/10/2008 09:37:22
46 Don#

What as come out of this is that all of the oil producing countries have more resilience to this crisis that the 'debt' economies created by Brown & Co.

They are of course operating at a surplus and might even have enough to help out the UK...after Brown has finished begging the US and the Europeans to bail the UK out!
47

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 07/10/2008 09:42:28
46 Embra don
Canada's banks have been forced into $10bn writedowns so they are not exactly happy.
48

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 07/10/2008 09:46:42
51 Nevski
Not always the case. The govt of Norway had to nationalise banks in 1991 following a crisis there. Pretty much the same as Brown has had to do.
49

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 07/10/2008 09:48:47
51 Nevski

"after Brown has finished begging the US and the Europeans to bail the UK out"

Hardly an accurate assessment of the situation. Banks in USA and Europe are being bailed out as well.
50

famous 15,

Edinburgh 07/10/2008 09:49:49
The British Government caused HBOS to fail and now the British Government handling of the crisis is pushing RBS to the edge. What is the advantage being part of the fourth largest economy. Similar countries with similar natural resources like Norway somehow do better.
51

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 07/10/2008 09:53:42
This bunch of fools are determined to see the country go down the tubes with the banks.

Typical stupid labour---"Lets carry on the way we have been going regardless of the consequences".

As usual, the Tories will be the ones who have to pick up the pieces.
52

Ugly George,

edinburgh 07/10/2008 09:57:13
51 Nevski
"What as come out of this is that all of the oil producing countries have more resilience to this crisis that the 'debt' economies created by Brown & Co."

You really need to check your facts more carefully. The USA is still among the top oil producers in the world and much of the problems are located there.

What about these countries :
Mexico, Venezuela, Angola, Nigeria

They are all oil producers. Do they have strong surpluses and strong economies.
53

Ugly George,

edinburgh 07/10/2008 09:59:38
55
"The British Government caused HBOS to fail"

How did they do this? The govt did not force HBOS to borrow unreasonabl levels of debt. The fault was that of HBOS management.
54

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 07/10/2008 10:12:24
Salmond may be an economist to trade but his interventions on the financial situation have been pure political flummery - the usual Gnat populist soundbites and cliches. Salmond specialises in bullying smuggery but he has at no stage offered a coherent strategy out of the current mess.

His claims that Scotland's banks could and would have been protected in an independent Scotland are laughable in the context of the global situation. Big banking is inescapably multi-national and borderless, which is why their status as small independent states is not exactly helping Iceland, Norway, Belgium etc.

Salmond is largely avoiding answering the question of exactly what he would do next if he was President of an independent Scotland, by trotting out the hoary old line that he wouldn't be starting from here. So what exactly would he have done in a hypothetical pre-crisis independent Scotland? Nationalised the banks maybe, or prevented them trading overseas? He is not telling us that either.

It is interesting to note that the only Scottish bank with no financial concerns at the moment is that wee Airdrie Savings outfit. But Edinburgh has not become a major financial centre on the strength of central belt grannies' shillings in jam jars - whatever the wisdom of the recent dealings by HBOS and RBS, to suggest that our major banks in an independent Scotland could have afforded to be disengaged from world money markets to the extent of the Airdrie Savings Bank is just absurd.

But as Salmond has shown since a year past May, it is amazing how many voters are willing to fall for his theatre of the absurd when he wraps it in a big enough Saltire or blames it loudly enough on Westminster. This is a time when Scotland and the UK needs mature politics, not Brigadoon fantasies and smug, tartan point-scoring.
55

Nevsky,

Moscow 07/10/2008 10:20:07
57 Ugly George#

Norway seems to be doing ok George wouldn't you agree?
56

Doh,

Wally Street 07/10/2008 10:20:48
"How can we have capitalism on the way up and socialism on the way down," complained Jeb Hensarling of Texas, one of the key Republican critics of the bail-out."



57

Nevsky,

Moscow 07/10/2008 10:22:41
59 Ghengis#

Rant rant rant but where is Salmond mentioned in the article? I don't believe Salmond calling for the government to guarantee savings is brigadoon politics, not according the the Germans, Danes, Greeks and Irish (with others to follow)?

Direct your ire where the blame lies..Brown, the boom and bust chancellor!
58

Alan B,

07/10/2008 10:34:22
Newsnight was interesting last night for a variety of reasons.

Firstly was the German Ambassador slagging of Browns handingly of the economy calling it anglo saxon irresponsibility. Blaming the US and the UK for this world economic financial crisis.

Interesting that he put the whole crisis down to irresponsible mortgages from the US and the UK. (the US obviously have a much bigger implication for the rest of the world becuase of its size). And becuase of that irresponsible mortgage lending that has caused the drying up of the wholesale credit markets.

In newsnight scotland why do we have to put up with Glen Campbell he is simply ridiculous. He combines poor questions with the fact he is probably the most biased and openly pro labour interviewer. It is simply not good for democracy when the national broadcaster is so openly biased in this way. We complain about russia etc for doing the same thing.

It is difficult to really assess Murphy given the poor questions and lack of follow up on any issue. Interesting Murphy openly appeared to slate Brown with his stinging critisms of the lack of transparancy and silly risk taking within the financial markets. You would have thought even Campbell would have followed that up by asking if Brown would not be slightly peeved given he was in control and brought in the current regulation.

Murphy did also appear to not really understand the crisis as he wrong i believe focussed on overly risking interbank lending in the fincial markets rather than the overly risky approach to mortgages which is the root cause of the problem. Given that the German Ambassador has focussed on this Campbell again did not follow up this point that the uk government was partially responsible due the the irresponsible lending in the mortgage market.

While i have no problem with Campbell giving Salmond are hard time, although he really needs to stop being and asking such childish questions or trying to load them to given labour a rod to hit
59

Alan B,

07/10/2008 10:34:57
cont... the snp with. He really should take the time to ask the labour scottish secretary on the complete and utter failure of Browns economic tenour that is seeing everything crashing around us. Atleast when it happens to others they can take comfort from the fact that it is the US and UK that caused it all.



60

Bigwull,

edinburgh 07/10/2008 10:35:33
THATS WHAT WE GET FOR FOLLOWING TORY POLICIES, BOOM AND BUST, THATCHER AND GLOBALISATION DESTROYED THE MANUFACTURING SECTOR IN THE DEVELOPED COUNTRIES, AND NOW WE'RE PAYING THE PRICE, I WONDER HOW MUCH AID INDIA AND CHINA WILL GIVE US WHEN WE'RE THE THIRD WORLD COUNTRIES AND THEY CALL IN THEIR LOANS?
61

Embra Don,

07/10/2008 10:37:35
#56 Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head

It was New Labour's headless pursuit of conservative policy that got us into this mess in the first place. Tory, new Labour and the US Republicans - all in thrall of the economic experimentation of the Chicago boys and exported worldwide.
62

Alan B,

07/10/2008 10:38:41
#Ghengis McCann

You are just babbling. Salmond has never said Scotland would be protected from the global crisis.

The real problem for the uk is Brown was the chancellor who helped make this mess. He was the chancellor who put us in a very bad position to deal with any global turmoil that hits every decade.

If you were prime minister you would sack the incompetent moron that plunged the uk into this disasterous situation. Not the labour party have promoted him. You could not make it up. Idiots the lot of them
63

Mr Custard,

Edinburgh 07/10/2008 10:38:48
I see the new flavour of the day has become Norway on these boards.

Funny how people no longer have aspirations for Scotland to be like Ireland or Iceland anymore. Where's Salmond's Celtic Lion now?
64

Embra Don,

07/10/2008 10:42:13
#65 Bigwull

Spot on - but there's no need to shout! ;-)
65

Calum10,

07/10/2008 10:42:57
Once more Alex Salmond gave a master class in macro economics on BBC Newsnicht.

Meanwhile back in London Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling are running around like headless chickens, whilst Tony Blair is having a good soak in his brand new £30,000 swimming pool.
66

Scythia,

07/10/2008 10:44:03
The Government should do nothing. Leave it to the market and all those debt written ,badly managed banks will collapse and better financial institutions will emerge from it. As warren Buffet says " It isn't until the tide comes in that you see who's swimming naked".
67

Alan B,

07/10/2008 10:50:37
#Mr Custard

People tend to the use the group of small european economies that are known as the arc of properity as they have grown at a rate on avg of 3.6% over the last decade while the uk has trailed with 2.8%. Scotland has done poorly incomparison with economic growth of only 2.2%.

We cannot take any solace that it was just a poor decade by a bad chancellor in Brown. Because scotland have grown poorly for the last 30-40 yrs with growth averaging less that 2%.

consider also that

Luxembourg, Norway, Ireland, Switzerland, Iceland, Netherlands,Austria, Denmark, Sweden, Finland , Belgium

all have a higher gdp per capita ppp than the uk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

Norway is particularly singled out as it had the same wealth as scotland in the 70s and now is much richer and oil fund to the tune of a few hundered billion and scotland has diddly squat.
68

Doh,

07/10/2008 10:51:33
#56

It is Tory policies and the Tory blind belief in the market that has caused this crisis. In particular the deregulation of the banks and demutualisation of the building societies.

The Tories have nothing to say on this issue because it dwarfs their usual claptrap about free markets.

This is trickle-up economics.
69

Alan B,

07/10/2008 10:53:27
#Scythia

that approach did well the last time that philosophy was tried in the 30s.
70

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 07/10/2008 11:00:54
71 Scythia
Interestingly Warren Buffet has been quoted on Bloomberg today as saying this is now the time to get back into the markets. He said
"The time to be fearful is when everyone alse is greedy and the time to be greedy is when everyone else is fearful"
Time will tell if he is right but he has done pretty well over the years so he might be worth listening to.
71

Alan B,

07/10/2008 11:01:16
#Doh

Have to say I completely disagree. You cannot blame the tories for the mess labour have made.

The US is the root cause because of silly and irresponsible mortgages. And the uk is little better. Proper regulation of the the us mortgage markets and the failure of the credit markets would not have happened.

The uk should have made sure we were in a strong position to withstand any global problem that occurs. Periodically they pop up. Unfortunately Brown has been completely irresponsible building labours electrol fortunes round a consumer credit boom. To blame the oppostion is just silly.

Browns should have ensure:
- public sector fiscal position was strong - not running up huge deficits and breaking his own fiscal rules during decent global economic times.
- controlled house price inflation
- controlled the amount of mortage debt home owner were taking on which would help deal with the point above.
- ensure stability in the uk banking sector. Labour changed the regulatory framework taking responsibility from the BOE. Fair enough change it but make sure the new model works. Labour are now critising the irresponsibility that labour failled to regulate against.

The tories may have managed it badly aswell. We really do not know. But to blame them for labours incompetence is really pushing things too far.
-
72

Doh,

07/10/2008 11:02:55
#74

Yes the government has to try and do something but now that the credit boom has gone bust we all get to pay for the debts but a few have made massive profits (and still are). Good job.

Once all the banks have been nationalised there will need to be a new financial settlement at least as far reaching as Bretton Woods.

As for Gordon Brown he will now go down in history as the most complacent and naive chancellor in history.
The straw chancellor.

73

Doh,

07/10/2008 11:08:33
#76 Alan

Our current problems are not just the US subprime mortgage markets.

It is also
massive consumer debt
under investment in production
over investment in "financial instruments" - house of cards

All these policies were started by the Tories, Labour has just followed the same path.

I find it rather disturbing there has actually been a debate about the US "bail-out" but no correspondign debate in the UK.

That shows how nervous and embarrassed the Tories are by the current state of their paymasters in the City.

74

Alan B,

07/10/2008 11:09:40
#Doh

The root cause the irresponsible mortage market both in the UK and US. While there is little we can do about the US Brown should have ensured the uk was well managed.

1)make sure banks do not overly depend on the credit markets.
2)control house price inflation (that has fueled the credit boom you correctly point out). With low house price inflation we would not have got into the inflationary spiral. We would not have the huge personal debts. Banks also would not have had to go to the credit markets so much to fund the mortage growth.

As the German Ambassator pointed out in germany mortages are only about 60% of the value of the house while in the uk and us we have some about 130%.

Browns should have unsure much stricter lending criteria on mortages to control house price inflation.
75

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 07/10/2008 11:10:26
76 Alan B
The problem everybody faces here is that it is so easy to be wise after the event. 10/15 years ago it seemed to be the perceived wisdom to deregulate and thus help stimulate the economic activity. Countries such as France which maintained high levels of regulation were seen to be suffering as their economy was seen to be stifled by excessive regulation. At the time this was true.

Of course now many are saying something different - that it is the lack of regulation that is hammering the economies. The reality is that both arguments are valid and the trick is, as I've said before, to get the balance right.
76

Alan B,

07/10/2008 11:14:42
#Doh

"Our current problems are not just the US subprime mortgage markets.

It is also
massive consumer debt
under investment in production
over investment in "financial instruments" - house of cards"

The irresponsible mortage lending is demonstrated by the US subprime mortgage market, and also the silly mortages in the UK. That is what has fuelled consumer debt. Most of consumer debt is mortages. You cannot separate the two. Remortaging to fund more spending etc. All the buy to let.

It is the huge growth of mortages that has also lead to a greater dependence on the credit markets. There is nothing wrong with the credit markets as such. But the collapse of the housing market has caused a collapse of the credit markets.

I do agree that that banks should be regulated to prevent it being over dependent on the credit markets.
77

Ugly George,

07/10/2008 11:18:02
79 Alan B
"As the German Ambassator pointed out in germany mortages are only about 60% of the value of the house while in the uk and us we have some about 130"

It is also the case that people in Britain tend to be obsessed with house ownership and house prices. A much higher proportion of the population in Germany rent their houses from private landlords.
78

Alan B,

07/10/2008 11:25:00
#Ugly George

I do not believe it is about being wise after the event. We should have learned from the house price crash in the early 90s where people were plunged into negative equity.

You are an intelligent guy. You know one of the key economic priorities is to control inflation. That is not new. Brown completely and utterly failed to control house price inflation. He simply failed to learn the lesson of the early 90s.

I am not against deregulation. I am not going as far as Doh who would blame demutualisation. (sorry if i have you wrong Doh). What I am saying is we must have good regulation it does not have to be anything like the credit controls of the 70s.

All i believe is we should control house price inflation and that mortgages should be controlled to make sure they are affordable and not cause a complete collapse afew yrs down the line.

I am not against using the credit markets just think that regualation should make sure that they are not used to the extend where banks are going to collapse if this market dries up.

We choose government to run our affairs on our behalf. If they fail they should be held accountable.

It is also not hind sight to say brown was spending far too much money compared to what the country was raising in taxes. He has been breaking and fudging his own golden rule. The problem was while speaking about stability he was a high risk chancellor.

If it had just been the failure of regulation and not the failure to control house price inflation and thus consumer debt along with the failure to run tight fiscal budgets you may have a point. But on every basis economic area except for monetary policy (which Brown made the excellent decision to given BOE independence) brown had been incompetent.

79

Alan B,

07/10/2008 11:31:04
#Ugly George

The reason Britain is so compelled by house price is due to the house price inflation.

No-one in scotland went on about house prices until the last decade as house prices were much more stable.

The south east got into it abit earlier with the early 90s house price inflation and crash.

People are now obsessed with house price inflation for a number of reasons:
- if you do not get on the ladder you would be left in a very difficult situation
- if you did not take as much debt as possible then you would lose out big time.
- with pensions in a complete mess it was one way out with buy to let.
- buy to let along with massive house price inflation meant people could make huge amounts of money that they would simply not make in salary. (Brown even ridiculously was going to add buy to lets into pension funds until it was pulled at the last moment for being even too stupid for him).