Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


Independence referendum: It's all yours Alex

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 12 May 2008
A REFERENDUM on Scottish independence now appears almost inevitable after Wendy Alexander, Labour's leader at Holyrood, announced yesterday that she would not block the SNP's referendum bill in 2010.
Widening the already damaging rift between herself and the Prime Minister, Ms Alexander repeated her support for a vote on independence as a way of clearing up Scotland's constitutional future.

But then she went even further. Aware that the only option left open to her is to back the SNP's own referendum bill when it comes before the Parliament in two years' time, Ms Alexander said her party would "not vote down" a bill which gave Scots the chance to decide their future.

Labour's Scottish Parliament leader also insisted she would not resign, despite considerable private misgivings from her parliamentary party about the way this issue has been handled and a public warning from one former UK minister that her position was now "untenable".

Ms Alexander said that she "very much hoped" to be leading Labour in the Scottish Parliament at the next election and insisted that she was still "good friends" with Gordon Brown, despite the obvious differences between them on this crucial issue.

But it was on the SNP's own referendum bill that she really surprised both her colleagues and opponents. Ms Alexander said she would not give the SNP government "blank cheques" over the referendum, insisting that she would not decide whether to support the SNP's bill until it came before the Parliament.

However, she was clear that, on the principle of the referendum, the Scottish Labour group would not actually vote against the bill, though it could abstain. The abstentions of the Labour MSPs would be enough to give Alex Salmond the support he needs to get the bill through the Parliament.

Ms Alexander said: "We think the people of Scotland should be allowed to speak and we will not vote down the opportunity for Scots to speak but we will want to harry them (the Scottish Government] on things like what the question is, what the process is, and we think it is right that, after 30 years, Scotland should be given the chance to speak," she told BBC Scotland's Politics Show.

Ms Alexander's comments delighted the Nationalists and appalled her Unionist allies. Annabel Goldie, the Scottish Tory leader, said Ms Alexander had handed a comprehensive victory to the SNP. "She has given game, set and match to the Nationalists. It will be their plan, their timing – and their question," she said.

Nicola Sturgeon, the SNP Deputy First Minister, said Ms Alexander's concession represented "substantial gains" for the independence cause. She added: "The one thing that has been made clear by Wendy Alexander is Labour's concession of the right of the Scottish Parliament to consult the people on independence for Scotland."

A spokesman for the First Minister said: "As far as we are concerned, it is the best possible birthday present Labour could have given the Scottish Government."

Brian Wilson, a former energy minister, said if Ms Alexander had made this announcement without Downing Street support, which she has not secured, then her position was probably "untenable".

Labour MSPs refused to break ranks yesterday. Of 12 approached by The Scotsman, all gave their public support to Ms Alexander and several said they would not comment in any way on the referendum issue. However, David Cairns, the Scotland Office minister, said he was "entirely at one" with Ms Alexander on the referendum issue.

He admitted the chaos over the referendum issue had meant it had "not been a good week" for Labour. Mr Cairns said: "They (Scottish Labour] have the right, as Wendy Alexander said, and I respect that right, to decide on the tactics and the timing of these issues."

Yesterday's development marked the latest twist in what has been an extraordinary week of policy announcements, confusion and U-turns within the Labour Party – played out in public, to the consternation of its MPs and MSPs.

Ms Alexander started the controversy when she made it clear that she wanted a swift resolution to the independence issue. "Bring it on," she declared.

Ms Alexander had spoken to Mr Brown on the issue before she made her announcement, but the Prime Minister had yet to make up his mind on whether to support it or not. Ms Alexander continued to push her cause all week, first by suggesting she might table a Labour bill calling for an early referendum. But, as her support for a referendum strengthened, so Mr Brown started to distance himself from it.

The Prime Minister spoke to Ms Alexander during the week but, instead of getting the support she had hoped for, Mr Brown backed away, leaving her isolated and damaged.

Ms Alexander's humiliation looked complete by the end of the week when the Labour Party issued a statement which appeared to abandon key elements of her policy. It coincided with a declaration from the Prime Minister, warning he was "not persuaded" of the case for a referendum and would do "whatever is necessary" to defend the Union.

With Labour MSPs and MPs grumbling openly about the disastrous way in which the issue had been handled, it appeared as if Ms Alexander had no option but to accede to the Downing Street line and drop the whole idea. But, after spending two days in strategy meetings with aides and liaising with senior figures in London, she decided to push on with her policy initiative, even though it was not backed by the Prime Minister.

One more little stumble and it'll be her last as Labour leader

IS Wendy Alexander finished as Labour's Holyrood leader? Not quite, but almost.

She can pull her career round, but it will need a major change of approach, better advice and a steadier grip on her party to do so.

If this furore over the independence referendum had been the first problem to afflict her leadership, she could have emerged with just a large dent to her reputation.

But it is nowhere near the first crisis she has been in – and the effect is cumulative.

She has only been in the job since September last year but, in eight months, she has lost one spin doctor and another press officer, she has become embroiled in a scandal over an illegal donation which almost brought her down and she has managed to cause the biggest policy rift in the Labour Party since devolution.

On top of that, her performances at First Minister's Questions have hardly ever been effective – and on some occasions almost embarrassing.

Not all of this is her fault. Anybody would find it tough going up against the experienced and skilful Alex Salmond, leading a government that is riding high in the polls.

The donation which caused the problems was not actually solicited by her, but by one of her colleagues and, to some extent, she has been left dangling over the referendum by the dithering of the Prime Minister.

But the central problem here is one of perception. Ms Alexander appears to stumble from crisis to crisis and so she becomes the story, not the policies she is advocating.

There is only so long that a leader can hang on once their survival becomes the story.

Her MSPs are concerned. They have started talking about the problems she is having and the very first traces of suggestions of possible replacements are being whispered.

These are, as yet, nowhere near loud enough to be an immediate threat but if Ms Alexander has any more crises, if she was to lose another spin doctor, or she was to become involved in any more financial troubles, then she would be finished.

She has used up all her political lives. One more slip and she is gone.

Independence vote timescale

THE SNP set out its timescale for a 2010 referendum on Scottish independence yesterday.

A Bill introduced in January 2010 could complete its first parliamentary stage by spring; the final stage could be cleared and royal assent granted by summer, the referendum taking place in autumn. That will be after the next Westminster general election, for which the latest possible date is June 2010.






Page 1 of 1

 
1

karinxxx,

12/05/2008 00:05:43
well i for one am glad that it has finally been cleared up that we will be having a referendum in 2010.

Seeing as labour are not voting it down then there will be a referendum

yay.
2

Marky Bhoy,

Dunfermline 12/05/2008 00:08:36

Aye right Weny it sounds like the mother of all retreats to me .

It's time for you to declare Independence from your masters in London
3

subrosa,

12/05/2008 00:12:32
This woman was trumpeted as having a tremendous intellect and ability. Says it all.
4

Jude The Obtuse,

12/05/2008 00:15:44
At last! The BBC has fixed the Real Player stream and I’ve seen the Politics Show.

Much as I hate to admit it, the Paisley fishwife put up a robust argument. David McLetchie was a credible performer too.

My real thanks go to Fiona Hyslop for pointing me in the direction of Annex B.

http://tinyurl.com/6aur9m

When the proposed salmonderendum takes place, the Ballot Paper will contain two choices:

“I AGREE that the Scottish Government should negotiate a settlement with
the Government of the United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes an
independent state.”

OR

“I DO NOT AGREE that the Scottish Government should negotiate a
settlement with the Government of the United Kingdom so that Scotland
becomes an independent state.”


Matthew 19:24 springs to mind.
5

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 12/05/2008 00:17:32
"But the central problem here is one of perception. Ms Alexander appears to stumble from crisis to crisis and so she becomes the story, not the policies she is advocating.

There is only so long that a leader can hang on once their survival becomes the story."

KEEP GOING WENDY. YOUR PERFORMANCE IN THE LAST 8 MONTHS HAS BEEN SHOCKING, AND THERE'S NO INDICATION IT'LL CHANGE ANYTIME SOON. BUT GORDON THINKS (I THINK) THAT YOU'RE "AN EXCELLENT LEADER" AND I'M SURE ALEX SALMOND'S DELIGHTED FOR YOU TO CONTINUE IN YOUR CURRENT ROLE. BE SURE TO KEEP YOUR PROMISE MADE YESTERDAY TO NOT STAND IN THE WAY OF AN INDEPENDENCE REFERENDUM IN 2010, AND EVERYONE (BAR ANNABEL & NICOL) WILL BE HAPPY.
6

Richardinho,

12/05/2008 00:18:08
hmm. forget about Scottish independence for a moment-what will the result of this new found independence of the Scottish Labour party be?
7

,

12/05/2008 00:22:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
8

,

12/05/2008 00:34:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
9

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 12/05/2008 00:38:06
Bring it All On. INDEPENDENCE HERE WE COME. Well done Wendy, what would we have done without you.
10

lachlan,

12/05/2008 00:39:53
i believe greenland (pop.less than 70,000)is soon to vote on indepedence from denmark and the danes are i understand quite suportive of the idea.yet greenland has a fair amount of natural resourses.can anybody confirm this.
11

,

12/05/2008 00:46:06
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
12

,

12/05/2008 00:48:04
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
13

FS,

Stirling 12/05/2008 00:48:44
Ms Alexander said: "We think the people of Scotland should be allowed to speak and we will not vote down the opportunity for Scots to speak ... we think it is right that, after 30 years, Scotland should be given the chance to speak," she told BBC Scotland's Politics Show.

30 years?

Think 300 and then I might take some of what else you say a little bit more seriously.
14

,

12/05/2008 00:56:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
15

,

12/05/2008 01:00:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
16

Senga Jean,

12/05/2008 01:35:14
Such utter contempt for the people of Scotland, All he is interested in is his salary and benefits.
17

Guga II,

Rockall 12/05/2008 03:01:01
That's very nice of wee Wendy, she's going to allow the Scottish people to have a say in their own destiny. Does she expect to be granted a sainthood for that?

Maybe she, and her political masters in London, should have another wee read of Article 1.2 of the United Nations Charter and Article 1 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

The people in Scotland have an absolute right to determine their own future, and neither Maggie Broon, The Mouth of the South, the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party, the Tories or the Whigs can stop us; not without breaching international law.

The only way Broon could try and stop us is by emulating that other fat imperialist pig, Churchill, and sending in 10,000 English troops and tanks against the people of Scotland; and I don't think even Broon is stupid enough to try that.
18

somerferg,

perth 12/05/2008 04:23:17
Spot on Guga II
19

Soon to be returnee,

Highlands 12/05/2008 05:08:45
I have a question. If Scotland becomes independent, what happens to the national debt? I can only assume that a portion of it must come Scotland's way. How will they work out how much? Will they use the same flawed calculations as used in the Barnett formula? If so then out of 45 trillion our slice would be single digit trillions. Any attempt to foist more on Scotland would show how unbalanced the current situation really is. If that turns out to be the case, would Scotland have a case for a law suit against England? All I am saying is that the path to independence is anything but straight forward and quick. But, any journey starts with the first step....
20

Dooogie,

Highland 12/05/2008 06:24:25
The "Unionist Canutes" are now up to their necks in the rising Independence tide and still trying to command it to go back. How embarassing for them!!They will soon be like beached whales.
21

steve 1511,

aberdeen 12/05/2008 06:59:50
you can put a red rosette on a monkey and get people to vote for it,you can put a red rosette on the corupt liar wendy the eeejit alexander and people will vote snp.
22

gus1940,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 07:11:56
It's amazing what barely a year of an SNP administration can do (even a minority one).

In the preceding 8 years of Lab/Lib administration they could have held a referendum and it was never even mentioned.

Suddenly Scottish Labour now say that Scots are being denied the right by the SNP to express their views on independence.

23

Ubi,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 07:28:25
One of the biggest issues in Scotland's history and Labour might abstain? Speaks volumes.

Are politicians elected to opt out of the decision making process?
24

haggis 10,

12/05/2008 07:30:29
The Free Citizen Teddy Roosevelt Quote "Any nation that Gives up its Independence deserves all it is given" Unquote
25

Proximaking,

Dundee 12/05/2008 07:33:27
#1 is correct it's the red rosette on a monkey syndrome. All you needed to get on in the Labour party was the backing of a bunch of loonies who long ago probably from as early as the 1960's weren't in it to help the people but to help themselves. We see this all the time, for "protect our public services" read "keep our gravy train running". And these are the very same people who still vote in the back rooms for the likes of Wendy and company. No wonder the Scottish parliamentary crowd all support her, they came from the same corrupt "elite". It is time we lifted some more stones in Scotland to see what is hiding there. Why does Dundee for example need 50% more council employees to do the same job as others elsewhere do? Why does Glasgow council need twice as many council employees as the most efficient "large town with problems" council in the UK? Incompetence and mutual back scratching that's why. At last Labour are being challenged in Scotland, and not a moment too soon but until these apparatchiks start ending up where they belong, in front of a court for maladministration I won't believe a word of what Alex Salmond says either. After all it seems he isn't above a bit of back scratching himself. lllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
26

C U Jimmy,

East Ayrshire 12/05/2008 07:39:06
With friends like the Wendy and Brown gang...who needs enemies.
27

Red Tower,

Dunoon 12/05/2008 07:48:17
Wendy is Gordon's divining rod in Scotland. Wendy is telling Gordon that Scots will overwhelmingly reject separation in a referendum called now. Polls seem to suggest she is right. So she pressures Gordon to set up a referendum virtually immediately. Gordon however , in spite of all this, says, no. Now if Wendy calls Salmond scared what should she call, Gordon?
28

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 07:48:29
On TV at lunchtime on Sunday Wendy told us that her boss Gordon Brown says that she can do anything she likes in Holyrood to discredit the SNP !
He is so magnanimous.
29

Independence? Bring it On!,

12/05/2008 07:52:31
Oh is she still in the job, that's a surprise. This must have worked.


http://tinyurl.com/5agcwt
30

Phil C,

12/05/2008 07:55:10
I'm a wee bit suspicious of all this, but have to admit that Wendy has risen tenfold in my esteem. Is it a trojan horse for Labour in Scotland? I don't think Daft Gordy is clever enough for that, but something's up. Whatever it is, I don't expect a problem-free ride for the referendum bill!

A two-option referendum is the only clear and democratic way of asking the people whether they want independence or not. The proven undemocratic and unelectable Fibdems and Tories should be taking a good look at themselves now too. The unionists who u-turned en masse with Wendy, who jumped up and down about 'bring it on now' now and the 'fear' of the Nats also need a decent mirror to see the error of their ways!

The SNP's approved manifesto commitment remains the best and only fair option. Bring it On! The SNP still have a hell of a fight to persuade enough 'can't be bothereds' to change from their natural choice of the status quo, but change they must for the sake of their country. The one indisputable loser in all this is Westminster Labour.
31

Stephen101,

Big brain Wendy, or what? 12/05/2008 07:59:10
Remember when Wendy was 'campaigning' to be leader we had loads of guff about what a big brain she had and her work as a 'management consultant'. I didn't believe it at the time, and I definitely do NOT believe it now.

Who was this management consultancy role with, for how long, where, and what clients did she work with?

Come on Wendy, let's see the evidence or was all that just another little porky on the road to greatness?
32

JayJay,

Right here 12/05/2008 08:08:57
Despite all her travails, the sheer brass neck of the woman never disappoints.
In March, when questioned on the issue of a referendum, she claimed to be "not that kind of girl". Last Tuesday, when questioned on whether or not she had the agreement of Gordon Brown to pursue this absurdly opportunistic strategy, she said three times that she absolutely did.
When you find yourself unable to remember the last great big whopper you told, you clearly are is some considerable trouble. To claim that your Damascian conversion is because "you have listened to the people of Scotland" when you come with a reputation for arrogance beyond measure, and an inability to listen to anyone other than the voices in your head, pours scorn on the very people you claim to represent.
Those Labour members who allowed this bombscare to take over, unopposed, because they feared telling Gordon that his annointed one was a liability should feel very proud of their work today. This is what happens when cronyism rules.
I just wonder what she has to do to either resign or be sacked. Mind you, given that she has awarded herself 10 out of 10, she has a long road back to the real world.
33

Stephen101,

And as for Wendy's future? 12/05/2008 08:11:08
Of course this silly conceited pompous wummin is on her bike, but only at a time that makes it look reasonable, Gordon won't just sack her. That smacks too much of a decision.

But please Wendy, cling on for as long as you can. You have stimulated my thirst for political news. Daily I look for her latest activity which results in 'how stupid can anyone be' from me, but she is funny, big time.

Who needs happy pills when Wendy is around?

Taking on big Eck at First Minister's questions is class. Hopefully a DVD set will be produced after she goes. I will be watching it in 20 years time with tears rolling down my cheeks. Last week as she sat there with the 'will the ground open up please' look on her face was top drawer stuff.

Hang on in there Wendy, we are loving it.



34

,

12/05/2008 08:17:18
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
35

Iain green,

12/05/2008 08:18:07
Wendy agreed not to "vote down" the bill.
She didn't agree to support it.
Sounds like abstention territory to me.
Also, her support is not a "blank cheque", so she reserves the right to oppose if she doesn't like the question. Which of course will be precisely what happens.
On the bright side, however, her hectoring and frankly dishonest performance on TV yesterday may have reassured Labour in Scotland that she can ride this one out.
Good news for all the other parties; but not for the union.
Wendy's reputation for intellect appears built on her habit of browbeating critics and ignoring other people's questions.
In this event, she's intelligent only by Scottish Labour standards, not by any normal benchmarks.
36

jj veritas,

12/05/2008 08:51:10
Prescott and Cherie Blair have just admitted in their books that Labour leaders lie to the public through spin. So why should we believe the leader of Labour in Scotland?
37

kimba,

12/05/2008 08:53:57
Scotland and Ms Alexander won't have to wait that long,THERE WILL BE A GENERAL ELECTION LONG BEFORE THEN!
38

Ctinj,

Alloa 12/05/2008 08:54:33
I think the SNP should bring forward the vote, like to next week as I think they are guaranteed to win. Wendy has done more to promote independence that the SNP could ever have done.

Well done Wendy (and just in case she or Labour think I will forget their blumdering incompetency in 2010, I can assure you I won't - your fate is sealed).

I have voted labour right up to the last election that they lost, and they lost that because there is not a member of their party that is capable of tying my bootlaces, let a lone run our great country.
39

Jimmy the Pie,

12/05/2008 08:57:36
I suppose all this means we won't get a look at Humiliated Red Wendy's e-mails then???
40

James.com,

Clifton 12/05/2008 09:12:39
This is clearly spin.....Gordon doesne have any friends.
41

dude,

wishaw 12/05/2008 09:16:04
How's this for an annihilation of the Alexanders

I don't know if Wendy Alexander is the biggest problem Labour faces – but ,after the last week, I do know Wendy Alexander is not the answer.”

It is the latest – and almost the final – twist in the sustained, most public self-destruction of a brilliant and fundamentally flawed woman.

Even her enemies admit that Alexander is “probably the brainiest" of Scotland's MSPs, who got a scholarship to Vancouver and holds a degree from INSEAD – a hot-house college for European high fliers.

Born in Glasgow in 1963, she is a daughter of the Church of Scotland manse: her father, Rev. Douglas Alexander, was an old friend of Donald Dewar and conducted his funeral with a chilling, oily self-possession. Her younger brother, Douglas, no less elevated by contracts and patronage, has also attained high office but – as was evident even at that funeral service – someone who knows them well tells me soberly, “These are not nice people.”

Neither Wendy or Douglas served any apprenticeship in public service. But they had Donald Dewar as a mentor and, by signal natural cunning, they were hoisted up the pole while maintaining most gracious relations with both Tony Blair and Gordon Brown.

Yet both have achieved pitiably little for real people, despite years in office. The Alexanders are not statesmen; not legislators. They are schemers, facilitators, backroom boys in ruthless election machines: consuming political ambition allied to entire moral vacuity.

Both have a stunning inability to take any responsibility for their actions, something which – in a wider constellation of symptoms – is a hallmark of the psychopath.

Though indubitably the man responsible for Scotland's electoral debacle last May – when postal chaos, incomprehensible ballots and technological failures disenfranchised some 140,000 Scots – Douglas Alexander could offer the Commons only blustering self-justification in what should have been a career-ending
42

Alan B,

12/05/2008 09:16:18
While the critism seems to focus on Alexander it seems that brown is the main problem. First of all Alexander is right as about having a referendum (although i do think she should have said so from the start of her leadership). Part of her problem is that she has no charm. Secondly it has exposed brown as a liar. It is obvious he has backed her strategy and then has bottled it leaving her exposed. The sooner labour dump him the better. With all the back stabbing currently going on in with labour in westminster it exposes a moral vacum in this party.
43

dude,

12/05/2008 09:17:09
performance.

Widely blamed for bad counsel in what has proved the defining disaster of the Brown premiership – the general election that wasn't – his star has been waning ever since. Both the Paisley duo – not least because of the circumstances in which they rose without trace – lack any meaningful political base. Loathed by their peers, resented by the grass-roots, they owe all to the favour of great men and their prospects perish with them.

But his big sister is the more flawed of the two, and the more vulnerable. Wendy Alexander is not “Scottish Labour leader”, but merely leader of Labour MSPs at Holyrood, her mandate all the less credible as she was elected unopposed. And, though every bit as arrogant as her brother, her core political instincts are appalling. Besides, at bottom, Wendy Alexander is a quitter.

Off to Glasgow University to study medicine, she switched to a much less demanding course in history. When Henry McLeish fell, Wendy Alexander launched a bid for the Scottish leadership, luring many gifted MSPs and Executive ministers out in her open support – then, two days after the campaign began, simply aborted it, leaving them helplessly exposed to Jack McConnell's meanly executed revenge.

In May 2002, Wendy Alexander – buried in assorted Executive responsibilities, but chiefly Minister for Enterprise – suddenly and mysteriously resigned from government, badly damaging fragile Scots business confidencer in a Labour administration.

She fought the 2007 poll on a platform of strident, uncompromising Unionism – then, assuming the leadership, found she believed after all in the extension of devolved powers. She tabled a Labour motion against the SNP Budget – and then ordered her colleagues not to vote for it.

When she finds herself in times of trouble, Wendy simply disappears. Damaging as the protracted scandal over her dodgy campaign-finance was in itself, her inability for many weeks to face either a microphone or a camera all but doom
44

dude,

12/05/2008 09:18:23
doomed her leadership from the start. In recent days, too, she has popped down burrows like a frightened rabbit.

Wendy Alexander is not easy to work with. Several spin-doctors have in recent months “left abruptly”. Another, a coarse buffoon who should never have been appointed, had to be sacked after vile, tired and emotional remarks about Alex Salmond.

A woeful lack of people-skills, abrasive ways and a fondness herself for crude language – allied to patronising, sometimes heated harangues – quickly became evident even under Donald Dewar. “In Wendy's world”, snapped a colleague, “everybody else is in Primary Five.”

She could treat civil servants abominably. And, after Dewar's death, she behaved with open insubordination. Wendy Alexander flatly refused Henry McLeish's orders to take responsibility for Scottish Water, saying she was “too busy” - throwing, apparently, an astonishing tantrum, and passing over the opportunity to do something both meaningful and vital.

This is a woman so damaged – so out to lunch on the priorities and values of ordinary Labour voters – that she not only decided to prioritise the repeal of Clause 2A – repellent but largely dead-letter legislation that forbade in local government the “promotion of homosexuality as a pretended family life” - but carolled it from the rooftops, announcing the move to cheering gay-libbers at Glasgow University in 1999.

What could have been accomplished discreetly became an all-out civil war in public morals, fuelled by the irresponsible - provoking attitudes and advertising that truly frightened ordinary gay people and shook newly devolved confidence to its core. Clause 2A was abolished, but close Labour colleagues never gave Alexander the same place again.

And there is, besides, overweening vanity. Those daft donations were solicited – and both British electoral law and Holyrood standards were explicitly broken – because Wendy Alexander had to have a “proper campaign”.

She could have to
45

Alan B,

12/05/2008 09:27:36
#dude

"Even her enemies admit that Alexander is “probably the brainiest" of Scotland's MSPs"

She was sold as labours brainiest rather than scotlands. Thing is when u hear statements like that or "do not suffer fools gladly" it is alway to make up for some other problem, generally that they have difficultly getting on with colleagues.

She was a medical school drop out apparently. Does that not make Sam Galbraith a labour msp brainer as he actually was a qualified doctor. Or all the other lawyer msps who actually completed their degrees.

From the perspective of only seeing her on the tv she has displayed little to show she is a cut above the rest. In a any government position she has held she has not exactly performed well.

Was her smart successful scotland thing a success. Even she slagged it off later on. Although like many who fail slagged of labours implementation for the failure rather than her own strategy.

Also did the letter she sent the Sillars (ex snp) slagging of labour, show any sign of intelligence.
46

Cam3,

12/05/2008 09:31:02
Comedy gold - this is HILARIOUS and sums up the recent LIES and IDIOTIC meanderings by Wendy Alexander and her party:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3904917.ece

Read. Enjoy. Bring some popcorn.
47

Privateman,

Anywhere but here 12/05/2008 09:32:22
To all those numpties who think it's the height of wit to make fun of Wendy Alexander's physical appearance: is Alex Salmond an oil painting? No, but then he's a man isn't he, so appearance doesn't matter? Don't fancy your version of an independent Scotland if you judge people (or should that be just women?) on how they look.
48

Prof,

12/05/2008 09:34:27
Will Bendy Wendy bring in a referendum, - yes no, err.
Does Gordon Brown support her on this - yes, no, err.
Should Bendy Wendy resign over taking an ilegal donation -No, yes, err.

However when asked to mark her perfomance so far - Bendy Wendy modestly replied 10 out of 10.
49

M & S loyal,

Lochwinnoch 12/05/2008 09:39:52
Wendy has as we say in Scotland "A rare mooth for coolin' soup" but not much use on the political front.
50

Agent 99,

12/05/2008 09:40:22
[45] Iain: Wendy's reputation for intellect

Where did all this originate? As far as I recall the reputation was something talked up by the pro-Labour press. Where is the evidence that this woman has what it takes above the neck?

I'm reminded of the classic urban myth when considering Alexander's intellect (or lack thereof). Everyone claims to know someone who can substantiate it, just like the rat tail in the hamburger. No one however, is willing to admit that they personally have experienced it.
51

Privateman,

Anywhere but here 12/05/2008 09:45:13
That's you #65 (see my comment at 62).
52

Filosofo,

Kirkcaldy 12/05/2008 09:45:46
#7, Jude The Obtuse;
'Matt 19.24 -"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a ricj man to enter the kingdom of heaven" springs to mind'?
Would you care to elucidate?
53

European Scot,

12/05/2008 10:01:39
69 Methalions

Good morning Methalions I've had the same problem over the last couple of days.
Is it a problem of copyright ?
The BBC not being able to release their product to foreign countries because of sales agreements on News material etc.
54

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 12/05/2008 10:02:19
For heaven's sake, Scotsman, get your sub to sort that headline out.
55

Fairfax,

12/05/2008 10:04:43
Soon to be returnee (25): "I have a question. If Scotland becomes independent, what happens to the national debt? I can only assume that a portion of it must come Scotland's way."

Nobody knows: there's no real precedent, nor is the division clear. I've sometimes discussed this with economists at the Treasury and the BofE, without any clear conclusion arising. One obvious possibility would be division along population numbers, but this also rests on the citizenship decisions once Scotland splits: we English form some 10% of Scotland's population, whilst there may be as many as 750,000 Scots in England. Further, there is also the argument that historic economic contributions should be considered, going back to the formation of the Union and correcting amounts to the modern equivalent -- on this view the Darien debt would be reassigned to Scotland, converted to its current equivalent, say. There is then the immediate question of Scotland's creation of a new central bank and currency. There is also the big question of division of assets, of course. If Scotland claims that UK assets in England belong, in part, to Scotland, then there is the automatic consequence that UK assets in Scotland belong, in part, to England -- this would obviously lead to wrangling where oil is concerned. One easy solution would be an entirely clean break: Scotland begins afresh, with no UK assets (other than those on Scottish territory) and no UK debt.
56

brownlie,

12/05/2008 10:05:27
62 Privateman

Quite right - they even make fun of the elegant and lissom George Foulkes whereas we unionists never call Alex fat or smug.

57

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 12/05/2008 10:05:43
Does anyone have a link for The Politics Show Scotland on iPlayer? It doesn't even show up for me - every other region does, and the Scottish one is usually there okay, but there's nothing this morning.
58

AJ Fife,

12/05/2008 10:06:10
wee wendy must be becoming a good dancer - she's getting plenty of practice, dancing to Mr Salmond's tune!

However, the truth is, wee wendy will be booted oot very soon and the Scottish Labour Party will do a U turn on the U turn!

59

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

12/05/2008 10:08:42
#56 I'm with you on this one Alan.

It seems clear to me that Brown must have given at least some sort of tacit support to this and then his bottle crashed. I'm just glad she's decided to stand up to him and not resign like some of the eejit Labour MPs want her to do.
60

Jimmy the Pie,

12/05/2008 10:13:54
Does anyone know the majority that despicable David Cairns is sitting on???
61

Fairfax,

12/05/2008 10:21:21
Alan B (60): "She was a medical school drop out apparently."

IIRC she changed subject to history, rather than dropping out, and completed her degree. Medics spend long arduous hours working, but it's not clear to me that historians are less intelligent.
62

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

12/05/2008 10:22:30
It could be worse - they could have put - "It's all you'res".

;)
63

Fairfax,

12/05/2008 10:30:09
Methalions (78): "The rogue apostrophe looms yet again"

It could be worse: we could be reading "The Scot'sman" . . .
64

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 12/05/2008 10:34:44
#83 Thanks - for some reason it's only available as a Real stream rather than via iPlayer or Windows Media, which is presumably why it doesn't show up in the iPlayer search.
65

BIG EYE,

Paisley 12/05/2008 10:37:44
Unionists arguments get more and more desperate and easier and easier to refute.

The latest is that if the Scots want Independence they can vote SNP? they did last May and that is why Scotland has an SNP Government.

Ah then goes the cry they are only a minority government (this to be used at all times except when attacking the SNP for not implementing all their policies) and therefore have no right to push through a referendum.

Has nobody told them that Gordon Brown runs aminority government with nothing like 50% support among the UK eletorate.

Ah but he has a majority of seats. Yes he has, the system used allows minorities to end up with absolute power but a minority in real terms he remains.

Niether government should have the power to decide Scotland's future....hence a referendum that allows Scotland's people to determine the future.

It is pointless to oppose this and the Tories and Liberals will be sacrificed, along with the Labour Party at the next election if they continue to do this.

Scotland needs democratic government and the SNP at the moment seems to be the only party that can secure this.
66

morris,

edinburgh 12/05/2008 10:41:24
25

Any fair minded person would recognise that a division along the lines of population ,ould be the only fair way to do this.However there will be lengthy negotiations for sure,with both sides seeking the best deal,and I doubt that Westminster can be trusted to accept a reasonable settlement without a major fight.The real problem is the oil which remains in Scotland's sector of the North Sea(it already exists)which will then become revenue payable to Holyrood only,and since Westminster has collected some hundred plus billion or thereabouts to date from the North Sea,tiny Scotland would gain significantly with this level of injection into her economy (5 million people) whilst it would slightly reduce the economy of the "Other part" (England Wales and Northern Ireland)by the same amount,but this is a much larger economy of course so its effect would be dampened considerably.Nevertheless Scotland is the undisputed winner here.

What is for certain is the position of Westminster will not be a co-operative one! They cannot afford a fair settlement,but international intervention may be inevitable and advantageous to Scotland in certainty according to all the questions asked in the UN and EU despite what Labour would have you believe.The Labour Party has lied consistently to Scotland for the last forty years.The question we have to ask ourselves in the case of each individual is why ?
Is it because they knew the Labour Party was lying?That makes them guilty of being Quislings on a Gravy Train lining their own pockets.
The other possibility is they did not know.That makes them IDIOTS!They claimed they knew what they were talking about!
Which kind of Labour MP do you have? A liar or an idiot? He must be one of the two and probably BOTH!
67

Saul Tyre,

Germany 12/05/2008 10:42:33
If Scotland votes YES in the referendum (and it's looking increasingly likely), Wendy will claim she gave birth to an independent Scotland. Right now she's in Labour.
68

kimba,

12/05/2008 10:44:38
Seems the nats are out in force this mornings,must be afternoon signing at the dole office!
69

Son of Loki,

The Dark Side 12/05/2008 10:48:55
Is there a competition on to take the most awful picture of Wendy Alexander?

It's a close one to call with all that's happened recently but today's pic is priceless. If you turn the picture upside down you get another face!

Stay alive people, it's the only way to live, or so dad says

Loki jnr
70

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 12/05/2008 10:49:43
#89 Excellent point. I have now entirely changed my view on independence, and wish to support the Union.
71

kimba,

12/05/2008 10:50:00
Maybe you should all read the Telegraph;Brown says "He will do whatever it takes to preserve the union"
72

Gill,

Perthshire 12/05/2008 10:52:51
Labour needs Wendy like the title of this story needs the apostrophe in YOURS!

Get a grip - Labour AND Editor! Mindnumbingly mortifying behaviour BOTH.
73

Gill,

Perthshire 12/05/2008 10:53:42
PS - Did Kimba write this headline, perchance?
74

Fairfax,

12/05/2008 10:56:16
morris (85): "They cannot afford a fair settlement,but international intervention may be inevitable"

By "They" and "Westminster", you mean England: please say so. As for England being unable to afford a fair settlement, please remember that we have a trillion pound GDP: our yearly spend on incapacity benefit alone in England has exceeded income from oil in recent years: both are around the 1% level, in relation to English GDP. I suspect that England will simply propose a clean break: essentially all UK assets in Scotland become Scottish, all UK assets elsewhere remain with the "rump UK", whilst Scotland begins afresh with no share of the UK national debt. The alternative would lead to endless wrangling: for example, if Scotland petitions for, say, 10% by value of UK assets in England, then England would petition for 90% of UK assets in Scotland. Still, it's all up for negotiation.

75

kimba,

12/05/2008 10:59:37
GILL. Doen't forget to sign,your dole will be stopped if you don't!
76

Jimmy the Pie,

12/05/2008 11:02:06
92 kimba

"He will do whatever it takes to preserve the union"

Our Dear Leader, Comrade Broon will soon only be able to vote no in a referendum (assuming he meets the residential qualifications).

He will be nothing but a bad memory soon.

77

JCA REID,

Annan 12/05/2008 11:03:40
If this referendum is held it will be worded in such a way to split any "FOR Independence", so that the status quo will remain. In 1999, Australia had a referendum to vote on becoming a Republic. The wording of the options resulted in the status quo to remain because the people would not be allowed to vote for a President, this decision was to be left to the politicians to decide - not what the population wanted. If left to the people they would have voted overwhelmingly for a Republic of Australia.
It seems odd that polls regularly show 50% & more in favour of Scottish Independence & it is not granted. The people were denied in 1707 any say when @ least 99% of the populace would have voted "NO" for the Union. About 2dozen "belted Earls" said "Yes" & it was made so, even though they were the outnumbered by the "NO's" & Abstainers. 2/3 of the population of the then American Colonies did not favour independence. also it is strange that Gordon Brown made a speech in favour of Scottish Independence but he wants to forget it, (check out www.youtube.co.uk). Strange indeed. Perhaps it's the guns we need.

78

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 12/05/2008 11:04:15
Brilliant episode of the Politics Show. Wendy being shown a clip of herself speaking then flatly denying that she said what she said in it. And the choice of music 50 minutes in is astounding...
79

Gill,

Blairgowrie 12/05/2008 11:10:32
97 Kimba,

Surprised you can spell 'dole' hen.

NOT surprised your understanding of Scottish politics is as basic as your education, which you so obviously (under)achieved in England. I'd suggest you waddled off back to the tabloids, but it seems the Scotsman is dumbing down to your level. Only 3 more years and it will have reached it, I fear!
80

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 12/05/2008 11:15:40
#101 Did it cut out before the end for you? I got a couple of minutes of the previous show before it started, then it ended in the middle of Fiona Hyslop speaking. The BBC's media streaming is such a mess at the moment.
81

Ananurhing,

12/05/2008 11:17:15
My 11 year old takes a keen interest in politics. Yesterday she asked me " What is Labour?"
I explained as best I could. She replied, " I thought it was something really painfull you go through before giving birth."
Ah! From the mouths of babes. You can't get more painfull than a 50 year gestation period I suppose. The contractions seem to be happening daily now.
82

kimba,

12/05/2008 11:21:53
l02.Well gill for your information I have 7 Gcse's and 2 "A" levels,and I suggest you shut your vile mouth and pretend to be civil!
83

Fairfax,

12/05/2008 11:22:14
JCA Reid (99): "It seems odd that polls regularly show 50% & more in favour of Scottish Independence & it is not granted."

Sadly the polls are not particularly clear; nor did Scotland vote overwhelmingly for the SNP last year. Still, one can but hope. England expects every Scot to do their duty: vote SNP!
I suspect Scottish independence will come primarily because the next Conservative government will lose patience, and, unlike Labour, has no electoral need for Scotland.

"Perhaps it's the guns we need."

This is entirely Scottish fantasy. All you need to do is vote: you're not Rob Roy! How would you feel if the Telegraph began to support war with Scotland?
84

Alan B,

12/05/2008 11:23:10
#72 Fairfax

In regard to ur statement about scotland setting up a new currency. It is the snp's stated intention to use sterling after independence (rightly or wrongly).

They have come across as quite pro euro in the past. Not sure if remaining with sterling for a period after independence is
1)a temp measure until they can take scotland into the euro, at a later date. ie managing change
2)a political ploy to prevent a derailed argument about a scottish currency vs sterling vs euro at this time.
3)make it an easier transition to independence, both practically and also make it a less of a jump for the population to make. Making it easier to get enough support for independence.
4)or maybe stay with sterling for a longer period ie the way luxembough used the belgian currency before the euro.

Not sure whether england would bother about scotland using sterling afterwards. Would they want some euro type debt rules that scotland should adhere to.
85

john z,

edinburgh 12/05/2008 11:26:01
It is almost certain, that by 2010, there will be a tory government in Westminster. On that basis, when the referendum is due to be called by the SNP Government in Scotland, Bendy Wendy and her moronic followers in Scotland, will no longer have their hotline to the PM in London. Those will be interesting times.

If a majority in Scotland vote for independence, it is quite likely the tories in London would use force to prevent independence, as the oil and gas reserves are too important to the English economy.

In the meantime, I think instead what will be used, is the media. It is in the interest of SKY, Murdoch, the BBC, and almost all other media groups for independence NOT to happen. Over the last year, I've lost count of the number of programmes in the UK on something British. i.e Britains best homes, Britains greatest achievements, britains greates heroes, Britians funniest dogs etc..etc.. and so on. It is all designed to continually re inforce this notion of 'Brittishness'. I would not be in the slightest surprised if a royal wedding gets scheduled just before any referendum on independence.

Watch the media, and see how it is 'pushing' the 'Britain' agenda, even the BBC.
86

brownlie,

12/05/2008 11:26:18
97 Kimba

Quite right to highlight the dole issue in your usual elegant and intelligent manner. Us unionists realise that in order that the south-east benefit unemployment in Scotland is a price worth paying.
87

Alan B,

12/05/2008 11:28:26
#Peter

Have to say i have never heard Fairfax give an "apoplectic and apocalyptic version of the end of the Union".

88

Ananurhing,

12/05/2008 11:30:03
I thought it was quite telling that both Glen Campbell yesterday, and Gordon brewer last week, directly accused Wendy of lying, and still she dug in. Even when confronted with her lies.
89

Fairfax,

12/05/2008 11:31:20
Alan B (108): "In regard to ur statement about scotland setting up a new currency. It is the snp's stated intention to use sterling after independence (rightly or wrongly)."

This has always seemed a strange decision to me. There's nothing to stop any nation using another's currency, but it does cause problems if they cannot issue it via a central bank. It would also lock Scotland into England's interest rate (since who would buy Scottish bonds if they paid a lower Sterling rate than the BofE's bonds?). There is also the political point that England might decide a clean break was necessary, in which case any subsequent note issues in Scotland would become a new currency in any case. It would be much more natural to construct a new central bank, recreate the Pound Scots (initially pegged to Sterling), and proceed from here. After all, if Iceland can have a central bank and its own currency, why is Scotland wary?
90

Endangeredscot,

12/05/2008 11:31:35
106 kimba,12/05/2008 11:21:53
l02.Well gill for your information I have 7 Gcse's and 2 "A" levels,and I suggest you shut your vile mouth and pretend to be civil!


Hmm, would question that claim - going by your level of wit and intelligence in the posts you make. Anyone who starts a sentence with 'Well' obviously didn't heed their English lessons too 'well'.
91

stug55,

kinglassie 12/05/2008 11:33:08
well said #55,but when will the electoral pygmies start taking their hoods off,the last election debacle should have been a wake up call to all of us,theres no shame to them,the gubb,still wants to go on & on & on, says a lot about the liebour party.
92

Alan B,

12/05/2008 11:33:16
#john z

"If a majority in Scotland vote for independence, it is quite likely the tories in London would use force to prevent independence"

r u having a laugh.

the contribution of oil to the scottish economy is vast. but to the english economy it is not that important. in the 70s it was important for england to have scotlands oil as the uk was virtually bankrupt, having to go to the imf begging for loans to prop up the economy.
93

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 12/05/2008 11:33:23
#112

That is not going to be the question, the Unionists will never agree.
94

acanthus,

12/05/2008 11:37:35
Kimba

7 Gcse's and 2 "A"

I take it you didn't get onto any of the more taxing degree courses with those results?

Stop bragging, Scots don't like it ;-)
95

Fairfax,

12/05/2008 11:46:54
Peter (109): "Scotland didn't have a national debt prior to the Union - we inherited the English one."

To be more precise, Scotland had not yet constructed a modern system of state finance, together with a national debt and a central bank -- a surprising oversight given the Scots involvement with the Bank of England in 1694. In that sense, Scotland did not have a national debt.

"Scotland on the other hand could seek reparation for damage caused the the country by English interests - e.g. Westminster Parliament"

Good luck with that.

"The separation will be like Czeck and Slovakia rather than Serbia and Croatia, the EU and other interests will make sure this is the case."

Why do you believe the separation details have anything to do with the EU? Still, I agree the Czech Republic and Slovakia form an interesting precedent. Which do you believe corresponds to Scotland?

"See Fairfax, your apoplectic and apocalyptic version of the end of the Union makes little sense."

Apoplectic and apocalyptic? If I'd suggested a nuclear strike on Scottish cities, then I'd agree. But a clean break, with UK assets in Scotland becoming Scottish, together with all national debt being assumed by England, is hardly apocalypse.
96

kimba,

12/05/2008 11:56:25
120.I was not "bragging" just putting a wee scottish troll in her place.
97

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 11:58:09
111 Brownlie
If unemployment in Scotland is a problem how have thousands of Poles and others managed to come here and get a job?
98

kimba,

12/05/2008 12:05:49
116,Do you really think I care what you think,this is a comment board not a English exam!
99

acanthus,

12/05/2008 12:05:58
Fairfax:

Sometimes you raise an ocassional interesting point but then this:

But a clean break, with UK assets in Scotland becoming Scottish, together with all national debt being assumed by England

You think an English administration would assume all of the debt?

I don't think they will be putting you in charge of the negotiations somehow.
100

Nikostratos,

12/05/2008 12:07:51
#122

You must be watching a different debating chamber. The one i have seen is very,very poor excuse for a Parliament. That includes all the msps not very inspiring at all......Alex Salmond quoting a opinion poll from a newspaper saying 628 business people took part. Pathetic Scotland on the world stage more like shrinking Scotland's world to fit with the snp fantasy.
101

kimba,

12/05/2008 12:08:31
123.Word of advice,shut up!
102

Nikostratos,

12/05/2008 12:11:55
#126 peter

some or most of the snpites actually imagine they can be comrades with a Cameron led Government..........Boy are they in for an unpleasant surprise.
103

Zillionaire,

Glasgow 12/05/2008 12:14:33
Blunderful - and even the Hootsman is becoming non-partizan.
104

Fairfax,

12/05/2008 12:15:05
acanthus (128): "You think an English administration would assume all of the debt?"

I'm suggesting a transaction, not a gift: if Scotland agreed to waive all present, past and future claims on previously UK assets outside Scotland, then this is potentially a good deal for England.

105

acanthus,

12/05/2008 12:16:29
130 Kimba

'Shut up' consists of two words not one. You sure you have all those qualifications?
106

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 12/05/2008 12:17:14
"Well gill for your information I have 7 Gcse's and 2 "A" levels,and I suggest you shut your vile mouth and pretend to be civil!"

Says someone whose opening contribution to the debate was to call all SNP supporters dole scum...
107

Fairfax,

12/05/2008 12:18:45
Peter (121): "So are you agreeing that a separation would be possible in a smooth and efficient way to the benefit of both parties, in such a manner to ensure minimum disruption to their economies?"

Not at all: I'm not predicting how separation will occur, merely suggesting one way to achieve a clean break.

"Would the Tories in 2011, given the return of an SNP Government at Holyrood, with a mandate to negotiate separation based on a simple majority, acquiesce?"

Possibly yes, but who knows? Here's Neal Ascherson arguing for the possibility of this outcome:

http://www.eurozine.com/articles/2007-08-24-ascherson-en.html

"Will pigs fly?"

You have now described my post as apocalyptic and over-optimistic: an interesting and unusual combination.
108

shivago8,

livingston 12/05/2008 12:19:36
Why wont she go away,she is in opposition,possibly why she keeps opening her gub and putting her fit in it.
Boo Hoo someone stole ma lollipop.
Wendy please go away or start acting properly,not like a wee school girl,maybe that is what you are
109

kimba,

12/05/2008 12:21:02
134. LOL, STOP NIC PICKING,isn't it time for your trip to the jobcentre!
110

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 12/05/2008 12:22:44
#119 Labour said absolutely explicitly this week that they would not vote down a referendum bill. That leaves them no wiggle room at all - if the SNP bring the question as written in the National Conversation document, the most Labour can therefore do is abstain, which wouldn't be enough to stop it getting through.


#126 "Would the Tories in 2011, given the return of an SNP Government at Holyrood, with a mandate to negotiate separation based on a simple majority, acquiesce?"

Yes, they would. There would be riots on the streets if they tried to prevent the clearly-expressed democratic wish of the Scottish people, and they're simply not that stupid. In any case, why wouldn't they? Scotland has propped up every Labour government of the last 100 years. With Scotland independent, the Tories would have a guarantee of ruling the rest of the UK more or less forever. And you think they'd turn down that gift horse why - because of *principles*? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
111

kimba,

12/05/2008 12:23:22
137.Good idea,you are a vile little weed anyway.
112

acanthus,

12/05/2008 12:26:00
140:

I am not nit picking, just pointing out to you (as everyone else here seems to already know) that you are a bit of a foul mouthed bufoon.
113

Endangeredscot,

12/05/2008 12:26:23
127 kimba,12/05/2008 12:05:49
"116,Do you really think I care what you think,this is a comment board not a English exam!"

Hmmm, try AN English exam.

Go on, shoot yourself in the foot again. It's fun, just like watching Wendy.
114

kimba,

12/05/2008 12:26:23
141.No they wouldn't,cameron has already said he will fight to preserve the union.
115

Endangeredscot,

12/05/2008 12:28:11
145

Didn't Broon say that? Oh well, different cheeks, same erse.
116

kimba,

12/05/2008 12:29:14
144.SEEMS YOUR MORE INTERESTED IN ME AND MY SPELLING THAN THE SUBJECT AT HAND,ARE YOU SOME SORT OF PERV!
117

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 12:29:30
109 Peter
Do you have the GDP per capita figures for the year 1706-1766?

Your interpretation of factors to be taken into account in a separation makes Heather Mills appear as the epitome of reason and fairness.
118

kimba,

12/05/2008 12:30:53
146.Indeed he did,at least they agree on something.
119

antifa,

12/05/2008 12:31:10
Fairfax: I think things might be a little more acrimonious than you suggest.

Whoever is negotiating on behalf of rump UK (on the current timetable, probably David Cameron) will have a rabid right-wing press to please, and concessions of any kind to Scotland are likely to be scrutinised and condemned.

Just think what the reaction would be if a UK Prime Minister gave up the EU rebate in return for scrapping CAP, for example. It would be economically rational but political suicide.

I would expect a trenchant debate on oil revenues: after all, most of the investment that went in would have come from the English taxpayer.
120

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 12/05/2008 12:31:27
#141

Wendy assuming she is still there) will do as she is told but the wording of the question will be agreed before hand in order to allow Labour to vote yes.
121

King O The Picts,

On my rocking chair in the sun 12/05/2008 12:34:52
Shhhhhhh listen................can you hear it??????????
Its coming......the sounds of independence are getting louder.
Isnt it kind of Scottish Labour to act as amplifiers for the cause?
122

Endangeredscot,

12/05/2008 12:35:19
147 kimba

In your dreams!!!
123

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

12/05/2008 12:36:55
"#135 A Friend of Alternative Mighty Mario Voltaire,12/05/2008 12:16:35

If anything, the proceedings in the Holyrood debating chamber are the strongest tangible argument against independence. Who would want to put the day-to-day management of a country in the hands of these muppets?"

I have to agree - the quality of many of our MSPs beggars belief. I wouldn't trust some to run a kiddie's roundabout never mind the country. That being said, we would have these muppets whether or not we had independence. Perhaps it is not only an argument against independence but against a Scottish Parliament itself!!!

But then one could argue that many of our Westminster MPs are equally inept!!
124

Calum Crubag,

12/05/2008 12:39:00
Er, Bring it on! Maybe not... Ok then, i'll support what the SNP had planned all along...

What a leader!
125

kimba,

12/05/2008 12:39:15
154.Nightmare more like.
126

Calum Crubag,

12/05/2008 12:40:58
#155 - eh? What was the point of your post? Of course, the Westminster govt has covered itself in glory in recent years. THEIR handling of our parliament is just one example. Not to mention the lies, sleaze, incompetence and law breaking.
127

Nikostratos,

12/05/2008 12:41:04
#141

Your lack of 'Understanding' of the conservative and Unionist party is simply 'outstanding'.

They have always Ignored the 'clearly-expressed democratic wish of' well Everybody.

And now just for the snp they will break up the U.K
Dave becomes the prime minister of smaller nation than any other prime minster even Gordon Brown.

Yeah I can just see that all them pictures on the stairs in no 10 of all the other U.K prime ministers and then dave prime minster of just liltle ole England.
128

brownlie,

12/05/2008 12:41:25
124 Ugly

Possibly because in Poland they were able to take advantage of apprenticeships and skills training which is sadly lacking in Scotland.
129

Endangeredscot,

12/05/2008 12:44:34
157 kimba

Frankly, I'd rather discuss the politics and not your personal worries. If you were to discuss things rationally and not insult people, you wouldn't have to deal with idiots like me!
130

kimba,

12/05/2008 12:45:05
This from the Daily Mirror. Gordon Brown vows to keep Scotland part of UK
12/05/20

*

*


*



Gordon Brown yesterday pledged to do "whatever necessary" to stop Scotland going independent.

The Prime Minister said: "I will do anything and everything to ensure that the case for the Union, which has served Britain so well, is properly heard."

And he said he would work with the Tories and Lib Dems to prevent a vote.
131

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

12/05/2008 12:45:12
#150 I think Fairfax is being optimistic in the extreme - any negotiations would be factious to say the least.

That's not say that this should be used as an argument against independence - the reality is though that people should go into this fully aware that the process is not as easy and straightforward as some would like to make out. I think it's better to be honest and up front about thses matters than allow the opposition to scare-monger. And I say that as someone who will probably be in the opposition camp!!
132

,

12/05/2008 12:46:10
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
133

Endangeredscot,

12/05/2008 12:47:44
162 kimba

...and your point is caller?
134

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

12/05/2008 12:48:39
#158 The point?

That most of our political representatives are numpties - that under any system of government we still end up with numpties.
135

acanthus,

12/05/2008 12:49:16
162:

Kimba,

Why post this? We all know his position!
136

kimba,

12/05/2008 12:49:41
161. That must be a first,an idiot admitting he is an idiot,you are one brave guy,and I respect you for it.
137

westview,

12/05/2008 12:49:41
133, Good point, but if we in Scotland are to be fined for independence, by paying part of the UK national debt, then lets hold on to our share of the Antarctic and the Falklands and Northern Ireland , and Wales and the channel tunnel etc. Oh and what about all of the Isle of Man, (it is nearer Scotland than England ), and Berwick on Tweed in exchange for all the fancy English UK embassies round the world?
138

Union is Best,

12/05/2008 12:49:57
162. Well said the Kimba.

As Gordon Brown has shown recently, he is master strategist, highly competent and a safe pair of hands. I feel with him on our side, our Union is secure.
139

acanthus,

12/05/2008 12:50:11
162:

Shock headline 'Brown is a Unionist'???????
140

dido-bendigo,

Scotland 12/05/2008 12:50:33
Point Of Order, before most of you wet your pants in all this excitement! King Canute put on a display and proved to his sycophantic followers that he was not all powerful and could not hold back the tides. He was the wise one and in control of his position, despite being surrounded by pillocks! Sounds a bit like Holyrood! We have a Monarch, a wise and lovely lady. Our Nation's laws are made in her name. How will it be if she will not consent to allow separation to take place?
141

Draconion,

Musselburgh 12/05/2008 12:51:43
Puir wee Whinedy, it almost make you feel sorry for her, but nae much.

#1 Traquair.
There is absolutely no evidence that Neanderthals were as stupid or ill-adapted to their enviroment as the numpties elected to Holyrood for Scottish Labour. (Even the normally rational Malcolm Chisholm lost the plot last week.)

I think you should apologise to Neanderthals.
142

Union is Best,

12/05/2008 12:51:46
164. Feddy

I disagree, Kimba is the flower of the fuller figured Stockton woman-hood. Behold her in all her glory:

http://images.salon.com/sept97/mothers/obese970922.gif
143

Union is Best,

12/05/2008 12:53:38
172. I think Wendy has already said she will agree. How the Queen feels now one knows, as he has said nothing more on this since last week's PMQs.
144

AJ Fife,

12/05/2008 12:56:05
#174,

Sausages and closes spring to mind!!!

Poor Magic Hoops....he never did recover, did he?
145

Cam3,

12/05/2008 12:56:53
Comedy gold - this is HILARIOUS and sums up the recent LIES and IDIOTIC meanderings by Wendy Alexander and her party:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3904917.ece

Read. Enjoy. Bring some popcorn.
146

kimba,

12/05/2008 12:57:27
Ok guys,the point being Scottish independence will not come easily if at all,with all three main political party leaders vowing to uphold the union at all costs
147

Phil C,

12/05/2008 12:58:31
Kimba

Day after day, you come on here and talk unadulterated pash! You do nothing but snipe at the Nationalists and drag the level of debate down to base level. I know you have your wee friends here and everyone's welcome, but could you not at least try to be constructive?

I would have thought that someone seeking English democracy would be the first to applaud the efforts of the SNP and those seeking Scottish democracy.
148

Endangeredscot,

12/05/2008 12:59:25
168 kimba,

Anytime, you're welcome. Now, lets discuss politics, one idiot to another... :-)
149

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

12/05/2008 13:09:14
#180 She can't help herself Phil - she's as welcome as a turd in a swimming pool.
150

Phil C,

12/05/2008 13:11:52
#183 The guy who used to be a NUN

Poo! For about the first time, I have to agree with you!
151

New Town Resident,

12/05/2008 13:15:41
I believe this article is inaccurate regarding a posssible SLP abstention on the SNP referendum "question".

Both Alexander and Chisholm continue to say "no blank cheque". Yet an abstention is of course equivalent to a "blank cheque". Chisholm is relevant because he is in fact the official SLP spokesperson on the Constitution.

Chisholm said on BBC Radio Scotland this morning that the SLP will oppose the SNP question wording. He also says that the SNP argument that their choice of question is legally determined by Holrood competence is not relivant because it is purely "consulatative". Chisholm argues that while it may be "morally binding on Westminster", it is not legally binding, so the SNP legal defence regarding question phraesology is irrelevant. Hence the SNP can ask any "consulatative" question that they like.

Therfore I think the SLP still say that they will continue to vote against any referendum that is not on their terms, and so the "no blank cheque" stands. Nothing I have heard from the SLP contradicts this? Thus this was, and actually remains, a largely "non story" apart from the SLP mishandling of its own presentation.

What I'm not clear about is whether the Scotsman misunderstands this, or simply writes misleading articles designed to wind people and boost sales?
152

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 13:18:12
169 Westview
It is not a matter of being "fined" by accepting a share of national debt - it is a simple matter of accepting that there has to be an allocation of both assets and liabilities. One might have hoped there could be a relatively mature discussion of this but, having read comments on this site in the past I should know better.

Many seem to feel that Scotland is entitled to 90-95% of existing assets such as North Sea oil but vehemently oppose any suggestion that they have to accept a proprtion of liabilities (national debt, overseas aid, EU contributions etc.)

To put this into perspective look at these figures :
Committed overseas aid budget for 2010 £9.1 bn
UK annual net contributions to EU £4.7 bn

These alone come to an annual total of £13.7bn more than the total North sea oil and gas revenues of any year. The Westmister govt. could argue that the revenues from the North sea don't even cover the amount given to other countries. If Scotland wishes to receive 90-95% of the North Sea revenues, what prportion of the liabilties is it prepared to pay?


153

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 13:20:37
Sorry - error in post 186
It should read £13.8bn which is more than the total North Sea oil and gas revenues for any year.
154

brownlie,

12/05/2008 13:21:09
176 Jade

I feel I must stick up for my unionist colleague Mr Best. Just because he tells the truth on here does not mean that he is a nat. Some of us unionists tell the truth as well - sometimes.
155

Alan B,

12/05/2008 13:22:06
#New Town Resident

I think it is more that labour having been changing their story over the last week. Brown has pretty well been caught lying about what wendy said and it seems he did agree and then changed his mind.

If the labour party keep changing their story and people close to the brown and wendy keep putting out contradictory stories u cannot really blame the scotsman.

As reported in the sunday papers wendy is trying to row back from what she said earlier in the week.
156

brownlie,

12/05/2008 13:23:57
172 Dido

Of course she is a wise lady. Anyone who can live in luxury and gets the less well off to pay for it is extremely wise. There is another name for it but it escapes me for the moment.
157

Alan B,

12/05/2008 13:26:46
#Ugly George

Overseas aid and eu contributions are irrelevent. Overseas aid something that can be changed going forward. EU contributions will have to be negotiated with the eu for both parties.

As for debt is seem reasonable that scotland would take a proportion of that debt possibly based around population.
158

Alan B,

12/05/2008 13:30:56
#The Federalist

Regarding ur comment about negotiating independence. I think it would be easier if scotland moved to a position of fiscal autonomy before any move to independence.

If scotland was to raise and spend its own taxes and pay to the uk government money for pulled services (this should really mainly be defence and foreign office), the dividing of debt etc could be done at that time.

Fiscal autonomy is probably the biggest issue, and would make independence far easier to achieve.

159

kimba,

12/05/2008 13:32:22
180. What you fail to understand,is that the English Democrats DO NOT want to break up the union,they simple want what scotland has now.
160

Jimmy the Pie,

12/05/2008 13:33:54
Just heard Humiliated Red Wendy's imbecilic brother saying Alex Salmond doesn't care about Scotland!!
What a f-ing cheek!
I'm looking forward to the next election when Dougie, Father Cairns and all the other New Labour Sleaze comrades get their comeuppance.
161

kimba,

12/05/2008 13:35:20
181. cool! There's an article in the Mirror that says Brown will now "consider" having a referendum.
162

New Town Resident,

12/05/2008 13:40:27
-189. Alan B. Absolutely agree with you regarding the presentation. The SLP must have decided the only way forward was to bounce Brown. However I think its the Scottsih media who keep on stoking up stories about mind changes in the SLP by the way they interpret it, maybe as a result of Westminster undermining briefings? As far as I can see both Alexander and Chisholm had the "no blank cheque" and question objection line in place early last week, and have stuck to this line ever since? All they have ever said is that they want a referendum on their terms now, but reserve the right to oppose anything else. They don't seem to have been able to spin it very clearly though? But perhaps they don't mind because it suits them to be thought pro a referendum without caveats even though this is not in fact the case?

The fact that Brown may disagree with this line shouldn't be a problem (or indeed may be an advantage)for the SLP? In theory Brown is not in charge of SLP policy, so why is it much of a news story? For example its rich that the Tories make a point on this. Cameron said its was perfectly OK for Boris to take the different view from Tory Party policy on immigration and have his own "London policy". Same thing surely?

So I do think the Scotsman is deliberately making a bit of meal of it whereas the London media now see it for a "non story", which is why they have now largely dropped it.
163

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 13:42:22
191 Alan B
As far as national debt goes I would agree but people need to be open an honest about this. UK national debt was £512bn in January. On a proportionate basis Scotland's share would be in the region of £45 - £50 bn.

Alex Salmond has stated that he would use North sea oil revenues to build up a fund for the future when the oil runs out. This is not feasible - he will need large amounts to sustain high govt. expenditure and, if there is any left over, it would take many years to pay off the debt - let alone put maoney into such a fund. And, of course, North Sea oil production is falling at quite a sharp rate and is projected to fall further.
164

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 12/05/2008 13:43:16
#185 Labour's comments this weekend were absolutely unequivocal - they WILL NOT vote down a referendum. There were no ifs, buts or maybes (remarkable, given their current disarray). They might quibble over the wording, but ultimately won't be able to do anything about it - they've absolutely committed themselves to, at the most, abstaining.
165

Talorthane,

12/05/2008 13:45:02
Could the SNP have achieved any greater victory?

Wendy Alexander attempted to apply pressure to the SNP.

Instead:

Labour have committed to not blocking the referendum.

The referendum will take place as planned by the SNP.

The SNP will put choose the question.

Westminster have had to acknowledge that Holyrood is able to hold a consultative referendum.

Wendy Alexander is further weakened.

Gordon Brown is further weakened.

And, most astonishly, both are still in office.
166

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 12/05/2008 13:46:52
Incidentally, has Labour HQ suddenly sneaked out this new line about inheriting UK debt? Lots of people seem to have brought it up all of a sudden, and the idea is farcical. Any breakup of the UK would be a "clean break", anything else would be so complex as to be absolutely insane.

As has been noted, if Scotland's going to be held liable for a share of UK debt, then logically it would equally be entitled to a share of everything that debt had paid for. Who volunteers to decide which parts of the Falklands, say, become English and which parts become Scottish? The idea is utterly bonkers.
167

A voice from SCOTLAND..,

12/05/2008 13:48:45
Wendy Alexander is not in politics. She IS politics; it defines her, it is all she knows and but one cynical sport, where survival as she understands it boils down to sheer brass neck and infinite capacity for the shameless. And she typifies what New Labour, as conceived and as finally delivered, has done to defile public life.

New Labour was never about the poor, the marginalised, the hurting rising up with one voice to take control. It was about middle-class careerists like the Alexanders parachuted into obedient rotten-burghs like Paisley, a community which takes perhaps an hour or two of bored Saturday surgery and can then be entirely dismissed from their concern.

New Labour was never about a change of ideology or even, in the ways that mattered most, a change of government. It was about changing one elite in power for another; a change to be delivered not by argument, by leadership or by principle, but by finding out what a few thousand swing-voters in a few dozen marginal seats wanted, and then using creatures like Wendy and Douglas to give it to them.

What truly terrifies about this pair is not their fatuity, but – in the teeth of every reality – their eerie self-possession; as if political prominence were not a matter of public service, but of lordly entitlement.

Her tragedy is that she cannot grasp she owes her present eminence, as the ludicrous and principal leader of Scottish opposition, to any regard or admiration in her own Scottish Labour Party. Alexander did not get the leadership because they think she is wonderful; she got it because, as everyone else could grasp after May 2007, it is not presently worth a pitcher of warm spit.

Now Wendy Alexander has not only compromised an already besieged Prime Minister but, in the final death-spiral of her political reputation, gambles with the very Union itself – the last act, says a despairing Westminster colleague, “of a political suicide-bomber.”

EXCELLENT BLOGGING FROM MACLEOD http://tiny
168

A voice from SCOTLAND..,

sorry here it is 12/05/2008 13:49:14
http://tinyurl.com/6hcudq
169

New Town Resident,

12/05/2008 13:49:20
-191. Note net UK budget contributions to the EU are budgetted to rise to over £9 Billion post 2010. Overseas aid is not a sperate issue. The size and destination of more than 50% of UK overseas aid is determined at EU level and is badged as "EU aid" to the recipients - e.g. most disaster relief, also Palestinian aid (largest single item) etc. etc.
170

Publius,

London 12/05/2008 13:51:26
Labour's chickens coming home to roost. Party in total disarray.

SNP posters counting chickens before they're hatched. Party in mood of overweening self-importance.

Most likely outcomes. (1) Tory government at Westminster. (2) No in independence referendum. (3) SNP returned at next Holyrood election but without overall majority. (4) Salmond retires.
171

kimba,

12/05/2008 13:52:02
199. You are correct,for the moment, however, what happens if Labour loses power before 2010,cameron will have different ideas.
172

A voice from SCOTLAND..,

12/05/2008 13:52:59
#200..The contrary view is that England will be required to pay reparations for it's damage to Scotland not the least of it being the theft of it's natural resources, and contamination of our country with it's imperialistic weapons of mass destruction.

At least the unionist eunuchs have started to accept the inevitable.
173

kimba,

12/05/2008 13:53:26
204.One can only hope!
174

John S,

12/05/2008 13:53:28
It's Falklands Oil: Secret of treasure islands :The Falklands is sitting on deep-sea oil riches that could turn out to be worth a fortune.Later this year, the Falklands’ 3,000 islanders should learn whether it will become the richest nation on earth.January 27, 2008
Experts from the renowned, Edinburgh-based British Geological Survey have long believed that enormous oil reserves, possibly up to 60 billion barrels, lie beneath the deep waters surrounding the Falklands. If this estimate is correct, the islands' oil reserves would almost equal those of Libya and Nigeria combined, and even amount to half the Iraqi reserves.December 20, 2004.
175

New Town Resident,

12/05/2008 13:53:48
-198. You say that, but I don't think they do. I heard plenty of "buts" from Chisholm this morning on the Radio.
176

Porty Nat,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 13:56:31
Fairfax - shrewd and temperate posts as ever. Fancy offering Kimba a few tips? :-)
177

Talorthane,

12/05/2008 14:00:02
205 Kimba

On the one hand, it doesn't matter who wins the next Wesminster election, as the referendum bill will be going through the Holyrood Parliament. A bill that will probably already be in place before the election takes place.

It would be very difficult for Westminster to try to interfere with that process.

On the other hand, a Tory victory at the general election would probably make the referendum bill's passage through Holyrood even easier, as there will be a "decapitated" Labour party fully exposed to the judgement of the Scottish electorate (i.e. no longer being able to abdicate responsibility to London).
178

Alan B,

12/05/2008 14:00:20
#203 New Town Resident

I am not questioning what the uk budget would be if the uk remained. My point was if scotland goes independent how much we pay will be determined by any negotiations with the EU.

Did a quick google. the fig are abit out of date 2003 showing the net contributions.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4079316.stm


Gives a more up to date figures for the uk.
http://www.openeurope.org.uk/media-centre/summary.aspx?id=560
179

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

12/05/2008 14:00:29
#204 (4) Can't see it myself. That being said I think the SNP do have a problem when Salmond does eventually go - who the hell is big enough to fill his boots? Swinney may be competent but as we saw with his previous stint he is hardly Mr Inspiration.

Any ideas who could succeed Salmond?
180

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 14:02:51
200 Rev S Campbell
Ae you saying that it is "bonkers" to suggest that Scotland would have to assume a proportion of the national debt.? This is not a new position created suddenly by Labour - it is the accepted pattern of events in any separation. There has to be a allocation of all assets and liabilities. If Scotland does not accept any of the debt (liability) how can it accept part of the assets (armed forces)etc etc. Would all the ships, planes, tanks, weapons etc all belong to the rest of the UK leaving Scotland to set up everything from scratch?
181

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

12/05/2008 14:03:14
#192 Fiscal autonomy is also a necessary precursor for federalism - that's why I support it.
182

Publius,

London 12/05/2008 14:06:14
#213 The Federalist

I've no idea who will succeed Salmond...but not Swinney. By the time he's finished with LIT, LIT will have finished him.
183

kimba,

12/05/2008 14:06:45
211. Should be interesting to say the least,cameron and brown both vowing to "save the union"at all costs,don't know how they plan to do it,only hope they do.
184

Alan B,

12/05/2008 14:08:08
#209 New Town Resident

That is because they are trying to row back from the position that Wendy put them in. She was unequivitable.

They are just preparing get out clauses now. The snp have made clear there preferred working. Wendy said she would not stand in the snps way and would even bring a bill for a referendum if the snp did not.

Much infighting later (after brown said in the commons that wendy did not support a referendum, even though we had tv evidence saying the opposite). Labour are now trying to put get out clauses.

Normally policians do allow wriggle room. Wendy was much more clear cut.
185

,

12/05/2008 14:08:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
186

New Town Resident,

12/05/2008 14:08:19
-191. As you seem to be an expert on dividing up the spending, what is your view on defence activities? In terms of deployment and equipment spend the UK defence focus remains Russia when it comes to the high spend items, i.e. Royal Navy anti-submarine forces, both surface and sub surface and the RAF Typhoon air defence fighter force and radar warning aircraft. As you may know Russia has resumed active submarine and air incursions into Scottish waters and airspace, which is why so much of the RN and RAF is currently deployed in Scottish airspace/waters, - anything from Russia arrives in Scotland first. So in your view should Scotland;

1. Pick up the tab for most of the RAF and RN in future and do it ourselves.

or

2. Ask the English to do it for us, but pay a per capita contribution?

or

3. Declare an unenforceable Scottish neutrality zone?

(Note Iraq, or indeed Trident, are small beer in expenditure terms compared with this.)

187

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 12/05/2008 14:08:24
#214 There would be negotiations over what would be paid for those assets an independent Scotland wished to assume control over (such as the army or civil service infrastructructure), and whether payment would be appropriate and how much it would be and how it would be paid. Rather like when you buy a house, you negotiate extra if you also want the carpets and curtains. You don't generally also agree to take on the owners' gas bill arrears for them.
188

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

12/05/2008 14:08:36
#216 And it may well do for the SNP.
189

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 12/05/2008 14:10:40
#220 Russia only has any interest in Scottish waters as long as nuclear weapons are deployed in them.
190

Publius,

London 12/05/2008 14:11:55
#215 The Federalist

I'm not clear what you mean by fiscal autonomy. I could see Holyrood within the UK having more control over taxation - income tax, VAT, excise duties - but not over borrowing.
I remember Salmond discussing bonds with Ken Livingstone, but nothing came of it. Unless the UK government guarantees the bonds, the market will see them as risky.
191

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 12/05/2008 14:12:00
#222 Dream on. LIT is hugely popular with the electorate, especially compared to the hated Council Tax. If Westminster tries to force a decision over the issue, the electorate will vote accordingly.
192

overshot,

perth 12/05/2008 14:12:25
172
175
If Queen Elizabeth 1st of Scotland does not go with the will of the scottish people, there could be another referendum to abolish the monarchy. I am up for that
193

Alan B,

12/05/2008 14:15:01
#215 The Federalist

"Fiscal autonomy is also a necessary precursor for federalism - that's why I support it."

U can have federalism without fiscal autonomy. Is federalism not just about having a central parliament and then regional ones. ie Germany with its landers. or the US with its states. Wendy talks about fiscal federalism. I would say the differency with fiscal federalism is that is where the sp would raise taxes for the spending it makes, u would then have uk wide taxes for uk government expenditure. Fiscal autonomy is where the sp would raise all taxes for scotland and then give a share to the uk government for shared expenditure.

I understand that u support fiscal autonomy and i can understand the attraction of this very devolved type of federalism.




194

New Town Resident,

12/05/2008 14:15:41
-212. UK future contributions to the next EU budget are non-negotiable and already agreed- unfortunately. They were put through westminster in Jan 08. Therefore if UK ceases to exist during next EU budget period (which runs to 2013 or is it 2015?) then the EU will demand the same money. So its a negotiation between Scotland and the rest of the UK as to who stumps up and can't be renegotiated away by Scotland with the EU.
195

Talorthane,

12/05/2008 14:16:44
#216 Publius and #222 Federalist

I wouldn't bargain on the LIT being a problem for the SNP.

Here is a new initiative from Glasgow City Council, which I would expect other councils to replicate.

http://www.glasgow.gov.uk/AF3int/an/default.aspx/RenderForm/?F.Name=EVYys4iyhHj

This will allow individuals to compare it for themselves with what they already pay under the council tax, without having to rely on Labour and Tory scare stories.

Most people will find that they are better off.
196

kimba,

12/05/2008 14:17:28
226. Hang on a minute,are you not getting a little ahead of yourself,we do not know the outcome of any such referendum.
197

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 14:18:31
221 You have not thought out the logic of your argument. If Scotland had to buy UK assets in immediate term it would have to borrow money to pay for them thus incurring debt. Alternatively it could assume ownership of the assets and at the same time assume some of the existing debt. Whichever way you look at it there has to be an allocation of debt and assets. There is no possible way of avoiding this.
198

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 12/05/2008 14:20:07
#223

Really? I disagree with the previous posters point that UK defence is still russia centric when it is obviously more expeditionary these days. The Russians are sabre rattling the location of teh nuclear detterent is irrelevant.
199

New Town Resident,

12/05/2008 14:20:39
-224. You are right that fiscal federalism cannot include discretion over the size of budget defecit (i.e. borrowing) in a common currency area. This is why the Euro has the growth and stability pact, and sterling area borrowing has to remain at Westminster/BoE level.
200

Publius,

London 12/05/2008 14:23:42
229 Talorthane

Look what's happening with the ten percent change. Most individuals are better off with tax at 20 per cent and no 10 per cent band, but Labour's in deep doo doo.
Under LIT many individuals who don't pay council tax or get a council tax rebate will be paying tax at 23 per cent instead of 20 per cent. They will howl: the losers always howl louder than the winners. (And this assumes a smooth transition to LIT. Changes never are smooth.)
201

Publius,

London 12/05/2008 14:23:50
229 Talorthane

Look what's happening with the ten percent change. Most individuals are better off with tax at 20 per cent and no 10 per cent band, but Labour's in deep doo doo.
Under LIT many individuals who don't pay council tax or get a council tax rebate will be paying tax at 23 per cent instead of 20 per cent. They will howl: the losers always howl louder than the winners. (And this assumes a smooth transition to LIT. Changes never are smooth.)
202

Talorthane,

12/05/2008 14:27:28
234 & 235 Publius

You are correct that in both cases, most people are better off.

However, the big difference is that with Labour's 10p tax problem, the losers were the poor.
203

Alan B,

12/05/2008 14:29:47
#220 New Town Resident

I am no expert (even if u were being sarcastic).

With regard to what i would do, is not what i think will necessarily happen.

The snp currently officially oppose nato (i believe). As such i could see them going for a neutrality route (i would think ireland or norway type of thing).

As they will not have a majority in the sp it will probably come down to what agreement can be made with other parties.

My own opinion would be
1)firstly go for fiscal autonomy with other powers devolved - transport, law and order (firearms, drugs, id cards ,dentension, number of police in a police car), energy (nuclear and regulation of electricity transportation), competition policy, social security, other regualations (like why did the sp not have the right to decide super casinos). aswell as other things like managing scottish elections and issues to do with the sp.

this would leave currency, defence, foreign policy, and eu membership.

2)change the uk to a confederal arrangement. meaning that scotland was an independent member of the uk. Sovereignty would like with scotland and the sp, westminster could not overrule.

3)adopt the euro and become a member of the eu on our own right.

4)officially move to independence

5)join nato and have some sort of defence union with the rest of the uk. that would not mean scotland having or paying for nuclear. but would mean defensive co-operation.

With regard to ur statement of allowing england (or the rest of the uk to pay for defence). The US pays much of the UKs anyway and has funded european defence.


204

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 12/05/2008 14:33:15
#237

Norway is a full member of NATO.
205

Phil o Brian,

12/05/2008 14:33:46
Hi

Can someone please explain why we need to wait until 2010? It looks a pretty straight forward question to me. Can you just see the amount of drivel that will be spouted over the next 2 years.
Look at the USA and the democrat race. Do we really want this dragging on so long?
PS If the vote goes against independance, can we have a 2nd vote on getting rid of the shower of MSP's we have?
206

Alan B,

12/05/2008 14:39:02
#233 New Town Resident

"You are right that fiscal federalism cannot include discretion over the size of budget defecit (i.e. borrowing) in a common currency area. This is why the Euro has the growth and stability pact, and sterling area borrowing has to remain at Westminster/BoE level."

Fiscal autonomy would mean scotland would have complete control over taxes. As for debt levels the uk could come up with its own stability pack. However the reason for the euro stability pack was becuase of german instance. Many have critised it as un-necessary. Even magazines like the economist.

Even outside the euro, the uk is still meant to adhere to the stability criteria. From memory national debt less that 60% (the uk meets this easily) and run deficits less that 3%.

I would therefore think that fiscal autonomy would allow scotland to work within this framework.

If it happens u will end up with an english parliament quite quickly. It could be english mp wearing 2 hats. I cannot see an english parliament having to ask the uk one whether it can borrow.
207

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

12/05/2008 14:39:19
#235 I agree - the losers tend to make a lot more noise than the winners. One group of losers who will make a noise are families with both parents working in reasonably paid jobs, for example, both in management or both teachers and so on. If history tells us anything those who tend to complain the most and have the greatest politcial effect are the middle-earners not the low-earners. The poll tax was defeated not because of campaigns by Militant but because middle England woke up and realised how bad it was.
208

Alan B,

12/05/2008 14:41:47
#238 i could still see them modelling defence round something similar to these countries. i remember a yrs or 2 ago that the snp were reviewing whether to join nato.
209

Talorthane,

12/05/2008 14:44:06
#241 Federalist

I think the Scottish people are more fair-minded.

The poll tax offended people because it put too much burden on the poor and not enough on the wealthy.

Where the LIT brings about a greater cost to people, it is still proportionate to what they earn. There may be unhappiness among some who have to pay more, but it is unlikely to be moral outrage.

However, I think many who do have to pay a bit more will recognise that the system itself is fairer.
210

kimba,

12/05/2008 14:44:35
239. Simply because that is when salmond wants it.
211

James.com,

Clifton 12/05/2008 14:45:05
Brown in favour of the Union is worth 1/2 Million votes for Independence. Anything he is for, ends up a disaster.Did you see that a Downing St. spokesmen said that Brown knowing about Labour Party illegal funding was "unsubstantiated garbage" Yes but was it true!
212

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

12/05/2008 14:49:25
#242 According to the SNP website their current policy states dated (11/01/2008):

"An independent SNP government will not be part of a nuclear-based commitment such as NATO."
213

AlecJ,

Aberdeen 12/05/2008 14:49:34
As Shakespeare put it in "As you like it", this loving voyage is but for two months victual'd. So to your pleasures, I am for other than dancing measures.
214

rielly,

glasgow 12/05/2008 14:50:06
241 The fed

Middle England is irrelevant in terms of the Scottish electorate.
215

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

12/05/2008 14:50:26
#243 I think that those who have to pay a bit more will do what people always do when tax rises - moan.
216

Miss H,

12/05/2008 14:50:57
242 The SNP's defence policy is non-nuclear. It is frankly up to NATO whether or not an independent non-nuclear Scotland governed by the SNP would have membership on its own terms. That's basically what SNP policy means - we will not compromise on the nuclear option. Everything else is negotiable.

As far as wider defence policy goes - Scotland contributes more in taxation than we get back in defence spending at present. So there will be no need to increase spending on defence, just keep the current level and by spending it on conventional - not nuclear - defence get better value for money and become less of a target for terrorists.
217

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

12/05/2008 14:51:18
#248 Are you trying to tell me their are no middle-earners or middle-classes in Scotland?
218

Miss H,

12/05/2008 14:56:16
235 The reason why people are so mad about the abolition of the 10p tax band is because it means the poor pay more and the rich pay less. So the poor subsidise the rich. That is so blatantly unfair even the Tories are against it.

That is also the problem with council tax as the poor pay a much bigger proportion of their income in council tax than better off people do. The SNP's proposals would equalise the proportion of income paid in local taxation to 3%.

219

Miss H,

12/05/2008 14:57:41
251 Of course there are middle earners - but the middle earners in Scotland earn a lot less than you think they do.
220

Alan B,

12/05/2008 15:23:57
#Miss H

For a while the snp ruled out nato membership. Are u saying they would apply to join if they can remain nuclear free? There are other non-nuclear countries members of nato.
221

rielly,

12/05/2008 15:26:54
251 The fed

Not at all but you appear to be claiming that it was the English middle classes who got rid of the poll tax.

There is no evidence to suggest that any party other than the SNP would have frozen the council tax which under the previous administration increased on a yearly basis.

Furthermore there would have to, eventually, be a re-valuation as in Wales and the Scottish middle classes as well as everyone else would have to pay more.

Presumably you would have been happy to go along with that.
222

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

12/05/2008 15:28:19
#242 PS In 2005 there was an attempt to open up the debate by Angus Robertson, the MP for Moray. He told a private audience that SNP hostility to the military alliance could be alienating allies across the world. He made the case for an independent Scotland to play a part in Nato.

A debate on Nato at that year's party conference was rejected on the grounds that it would expose divisions and lead to a media spectacle. Nato is a sensitive subject for the Nationalists because Salmond ruled out any rethink of the policy during his leadership contest.
223

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

12/05/2008 15:29:25
#252 the Tories are only against it for cynical politcial reasosn - if there had not been a fuss they would not have opposed it.
224

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 15:32:30
250 Hiss H
You have stated that "Scotland contributes more in taxation than we get in defence" You should check details before you make such assertions. Look at these facts:
1 Scotland has roughly 9% of the UK population
2 It has 1 of the 3 naval bases (33.3%)
3 It has 16 out of 49 RAF squadrons (32.6%)
4 It has 1 out of 3 Ryal Marine bases (33.3%)
5 It has 2 of the 4 shipyards/dockyards (50%) engaged in building Royal Navy ships eg new aircraft carriers
6 It has 1 out of 6 armoured regiments (17%)
7 It has over 10% of the army infantry.
225

kimba,

12/05/2008 15:34:28
257.And what reason would that be,please explain!
226

Miss H,

12/05/2008 15:35:41
254 SNP policy is as the Fed spelled it out – we will not agree to be part of a nuclear-based alliance. That is our starting-off point. We are not against NATO in principle, it is the nuclear issue that is the central point. If NATO said yes it’s fine to be a member with no requirement for you to have any nuclear weapons from any country in your land, sea and air space then there is no barrier to Scotland being a member. However if there are strings attached, like allowing other members access to our land, sea and air space for their nuclear weapons then that is a different matter. As I said it will all be up for negotiation on those terms. Yes there are other non-nuclear members but they have always been non-nuclear so it's not quite the same thing.
227

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

12/05/2008 15:37:58
"#253 Of course there are middle earners - but the middle earners in Scotland earn a lot less than you think they do."

I think I read somewhere that a gross income of around £52,000 would result in families losing out if they lived in a band D dwelling. Band D here in Dundee is a typical semi-detached 3-bedroom house. £52,000 may sound a lot but is not - it is less than mine and my wife's salary - I'm a tecaher and she's a shop manager. There will be many like us who would never describe ourselves as being rich who are already being hammered by other taxes and will not be happy at another tax rise. Moreover, many who may not yet be in that bracket of earnings but aspire to earn that sort of income may not be happy either.

My feelings are that LIT won't hit those it is really meant to get - the mega-rich - because they will be able to afford the accountants to avoid paying too much LIT.

In any case, introducing or replacing any tax is nearly always unpopular. People don't like paying taxes and LIT will be no different.
228

Miss H,

12/05/2008 15:39:19
258 Now look up the actual spending and tell us what you find.

Does Scotland get 9% of UK defence spending?
229

himthatknows,

Woodstock 12/05/2008 15:41:10
I guess there will be a sense of urgency in saving the Scottish Regiments now...
230

Chris42,

12/05/2008 15:42:38
With support for Independence well short of 50% why do people believe there will be a sufficient shift in opinion to achieve a Yes vote particularly in a climate of media negativity?
231

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

12/05/2008 15:43:06
#255 My own view is that a broader review of local government finance AND expenditure is required. I would have preferred if a wider range of altrenatives were being investigated than just LIT and the Greens LVT. Also, as I have said before, theer is no point at looking at how local governemnt finance is raised without examining the value for money we get from local government expenditure. The two are intertwined and should not be looked at in isolation.
232

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 12/05/2008 15:44:56
#224Publius

"I could see Holyrood within the UK having more control over taxation - income tax, VAT, excise duties - but not over borrowing.
I remember Salmond discussing bonds with Ken Livingstone, but nothing came of it. Unless the UK government guarantees the bonds, the market will see them as risky."

UK Corporations issue Bonds. Why would a Government that has the ability to raise money through taxation be unable to issue bonds when companies can?

In Canada the various provinces issue bonds. The yield is determined by the market in relation to their perceived risk.

In the municipalities issue bonds, so why can't a Scottish Government?
233

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 12/05/2008 15:45:59
#260

The SNP does not have a defence policy other than the emotive "restore the scottish regiments" which is impracticalas 7 Infantry regiments will require foce levels of over 20,00 to get the force mixture right.
234

kimba,

12/05/2008 15:47:34
262.The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Douglas Alexander): Around £1.4 billion of the defence budget has been spent directly in Scotland in each of the past three years. That reflects the vital contribution that Scotland makes to defence, both in terms of the brave men and women who join our armed forces and the high-quality Scottish companies that provide the sophisticated equipment used on the modern battlefield.
235

Doh,

12/05/2008 15:50:56
#261 Fed

A joint income of £52K, to keep the maths simple say you have a combined personal allowance of £12K that leaves £40K x 0.03 = £1200.

So you will only be worse of if you are paying less than £1200 council tax a year.

Also even if you dont consider those that will be better off under LIT consider your own position if your circumstances change - one of you loses their job or you retire. LIT will automatically take into account your change in circumstances.

So do you pay less than £1200 council tax a year?
I doubt it.
236

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 12/05/2008 15:54:53
#270
Ah the left wing student.
237

Alan B,

12/05/2008 15:57:11
#Chris42

"With support for Independence well short of 50% why do people believe there will be a sufficient shift in opinion to achieve a Yes vote particularly in a climate of media negativity?"

Firstly if u look at those that express an opinion there has been a fair even split between those that want independence and those that do not over the last 9yrs according to electrol expert John Curtis from Strathclyde Uni.

One of the most recent showed that more poeple wanted independence than not. i remember pre-election more people wanted independence.

With regard to ur 50% figure. It depends on whether u are talking about 50% of people who have made up their mind or 50% of the total. The recent opinion poll that showed most people wanted independence showed 41% of people for the idea. ie less than 41% (i would have to google to check the figure) wanted to remain within the union. There rest undecided.

In a referendum it could be the undecideds that make up the difference. Alternatively it could be turn out. consider that a scottish election gets just over 50%and local elections around 30%.

If u have a referendum a reasonable turnout would be 50%. Thus u would have to convince over 25% of the electrate. The fact is as we can see from elections much of the population is appathetic.


238

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

12/05/2008 16:00:32
#269 The figure of £52,000 actually came from one of our Nat posters here!!
239

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

12/05/2008 16:04:26
#272 I tend to be in the camp that support for the both the status quo and independence is soft. I honestly believe that there is a substantial number in the population whio are in the undecided or couldn't care less category. Given the Scottish media's pro-union bias I think that they are more likely to be swayed towards the unionist camp than vice versa - but who knows? I could be wrong.

Perhaps what I am really saying is that until we have a referendum no-one really knows what the outcome would be - it is all very much speculation.
240

Miss H,

12/05/2008 16:04:47
261 OK I accept that you genuinely think you are a middle earner but you are not.

The median salary for all people in Scotland is £19,282.

The median salary for men is £24,000.
The median salary for women is £15,295.

The median salary for men working full time is £25,367.
The median salary for women working full time is £20.052.

So the average couple both working full time have a joint gross income of £45,419. Under the SNP’s plans this couple would pay £1036.47 in local taxation which is lower than the band D average anywhere in Scotland other than the Western Isles. (Where wages are actually lower than the national average so the amount paid in LIT will also be lower).

Also remember that 366,000 women work part-time - mainly because they have children - and the median salary for women working part time is just £8,060. So in reality the ‘average’ couple would be likely to have a joint income lower than £45,419.

I agree people might complain at having to pay a 3% local income tax but they need to realise that people on lower wages or on a fixed occupational pension can easily pay twice as much as that as a proportion of their earned income in council tax. And I am not talking about people on benefits - I am talking about people who actually pay their council tax now.
241

Alan B,

12/05/2008 16:09:47
#276 The Federalist

Would not disagree.

Personally i think the snp should aim to get fiscal autonomy first. Without it the referendum will become an argument about the deficit. With labour adding another couple of billion each day.

242

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 12/05/2008 16:13:42
#231 That's not the same thing at all. If we assumed control of army assets and such, indeed we would probably have to pay for them in some way, possibly incurring loans and debt. That's utterly different from taking over a share of the UK's *existing* huge debts which were run up on things Scotland never wanted in the first place. Those would be, from the point of the new independent Scotland, debts for nothing. Unless, of course, we were to equally assume share's in ALL of the rump UK's assets, including things like the Falklands, which is an utterly stupid notion which I notice you failed to address.
243

Calum Crubag,

12/05/2008 16:15:03
All politicians are the same?

Of course, Mandela was a carbon copy of Hitler. Thatcher was a Maoist.

Maybe politicians are just people. Some of them though, like anyone else though are a bit fckd up.
244

rielly,

12/05/2008 16:16:08
265 The fed

Sadly, it is not what you and I prefer that will be on offer. It will be the system the party that gains a majority favours.

I believe that if the Lab/lib pact had gained a majority that the status quo would have been maintained. After all they had the opportunity over their stagnant years to address the council tax issue and failed to do so.

Rather than keeping the status quo i.e. council tax I would prefer some form of LIT but I would also like to see some kind of tax reform that would eliminate loop-holes that allow the super-rich to avoid their fair share of tax.

That will not happen under Brown or Cameron and their cronies.
245

Chris42,

12/05/2008 16:25:28
Alan B 272

Thanks, interesting points, there will, of course, be the mother of all scare-mongering campaigns from the unionist parties and media in the run up to the Referendum. This will no doubt influence many undecideds and also some of those who currently say they support Independence. Even the normally apathetic may also be roused to 'save' the Union. If the media backed Independence I would be very confident of a Yes vote, but realistically this will not happen.
246

Miss H,

12/05/2008 16:27:03
284 Cheerio.
247

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/05/2008 16:27:34
#106 kimba

kimba, someone with your poor grasp of the English language is more likely to have left school at the age of 15.
248

getinnnn,

SCOTLAND 12/05/2008 16:34:12
The dissulutionment of the Scottish voters after voting for Scottish Independence in the seventies and not getting it because of the unfairness of the system that counted non voters as Unionist votes and also dead people; kept huge amounts of Scots from bothering to vote since- add viscious propaganda to this. If these Scots can now be convinced that the Referendum will be fair and fifty/fifty; then the Scottish Independence vote would skyrocket and the longer the SNP are in such prominence; the more uncomfortable the Labour Unionists Will be who will be scared stiff of this skyrocketing happening.
249

kimba,

12/05/2008 16:38:20
270. It isn't the master,can't you read!
250

getinnnn,

Scotland 12/05/2008 16:39:31
The latest Independence related poll from the Scotsman obviously suggested that the Scottish Independence vote is over 50% which is why they did not publish the results of course it is.
251

Alan B,

12/05/2008 16:40:31
#getinnnn

the referendum in the 70s was for an assembly not independence.
252

New Town Resident,

12/05/2008 16:40:44
-280. Don't agree. Wish is father of the thought methinks. Note Mr. Taylor on his BBC Scottish politics blog says exactly the same as me in post 185. Except he puts it rather better, and doesn't mispell "consultative"!

I think the SLP stated position has remained exactly the same for the last 10 days. They will now support an referendum, but only on SLP terms. The SLP terms are for an immediate referendum on the Chisholm UK question wording. However the SLP will not guarantee to support a later referendum in 2010 on the SNP question wording(i.e. they won't, which is what they mean by "no blank cheque".)

So the confusion is largely media made, with the SLP seemingly happy to go along with this confusion. Mr. Taylor dicusses why this may be the case.

At no point as far as I am aware has Alexander ever promised they will vote for or abstain on the SNP question. do you agree #280? Chisholm said again this morning that they opposed the SNP question and he is their official spokesperson on this issue.

Usual 50 odd replies on the BBC blog, none of which addressed Mr. Taylor's point.

~273 (or AM2 of course). Would be most interested to know whether either of you have results of any recent opinion poll in Scotland as to whether the Scottish public think we should keep the nuclear deterrent or not? I seem to recall seeing one where a majority said they did, but this may of course be out of date. Actually the poll I think I remember as the usual inconsistency of being in favour of the deterrent in principle but unhappy about some of it being based in Scotland - kind of like wind farms?
253

getinnnn,

12/05/2008 16:40:50
.....and wait till You see this mass of Independence voters come out of the woodwork.....
254

getinnnn,

12/05/2008 16:42:37
#297
oh! I heard wrong then..thanks
There is dissolutionment though
255

kimba,

12/05/2008 16:42:37
270 He went on to say. Mr. Alexander: As he watched the Scottish elections from afar, I fear that the hon. Gentleman may not fully have appreciated the fact that two thirds of the Scottish electorate voted against separatism. Indeed, both the principal parties—my own and the Scottish National party—secured between 32 and 33 per cent. of the vote. Therefore, some of the more cataclysmic headlines that have been written in recent days do not reflect the overwhelming consensus still in Scotland that we are proud to remain part of the United Kingdom.
256

Alan B,

12/05/2008 16:45:43
#getinnnn

When u said "unfairness of the system"

Were u refering to the fact that they counted the dead as a no vote :) or just the undemocractic 40% rule.
257

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/05/2008 16:46:11
#174 Union is Best

You are being extremely unfair to the fat, ugly girl in the photo. kimba is probably much worse looking than her....
258

kimba,

12/05/2008 16:51:08
287.Teesside high 'til 18,durham uni(stephenson college)'til 21.Anything else you wish to know?
259

kimba,

12/05/2008 16:52:31
306.ENGLISH DEMS OF COURSE!
260

Alan B,

12/05/2008 16:53:16
#New Town Resident

"At no point as far as I am aware has Alexander ever promised they will vote for or abstain on the SNP question."

She effectively said she did. She knew the wording the snp propose and said they should bring forward their referendum to have it sooner. If they did not she would bring a bill forward.

"So the confusion is largely media made, with the SLP seemingly happy to go along with this confusion."

i would say that is being generous laobur have confused. For instance brown said that wendy did not support a referendum when she had said on tv she did. She then contradicted brown the next day re-iterating her support for a referendum.

she has also said quite clearly brown supported her. He has declined to say so. Even putting out that he is not persuaded of the case for a referendum.

Wendy has now rowed back slightly.
261

Alan B,

12/05/2008 16:57:24
sorry spook what was the value of mcconnell.
262

getinnnn,

Scotland 12/05/2008 16:58:16
304 Alan B;
If I got My facts wrong, it probably doesn't matter what I said; but I usually just argue on principles. I think apathetic voters votes should back the majority of the voters who did care enough to vote...I heard that non votes counted for the status quo before because "they were happy". In a straight poll 51% should win. If there is 41% for Independence and 32% for the Union; then this should be a straight win for Independence.
263

Alan B,

12/05/2008 17:02:08
#getinnnn

No-one that supports democracy would disagree with u.

264

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/05/2008 17:03:53
#213 Nicola Sturgeon is an ideal successor.
265

getinnnn,

Scotland 12/05/2008 17:05:58
304 Alan B
Reading the 79 result; the 40% rule seems grossly unfair to Me and the people voted for an Assembly. This rule seems criminal to Me because all of the Scottish people got the chance to vote and it is hardly encouraging for those voters who did their duty and went out and voted and deserved their Assembly.
266

Independence? Bring it On!,

12/05/2008 17:06:33
I had a mate who went to Australia once. He died.
267

Alan B,

12/05/2008 17:09:05
#getinnnn

FYI

"The Act provided for special conditions on the referendum stipulating that for the Act not to be repealed at least 40% of the electorate would have to vote Yes in the referendum." (this included those that were dead since the last time the electoral register was updated)

Result
yes 51.6% 1,230,937
no 48.4% 1,153,500

on a 63.8% turnout.

u can imagine what the 40% rule meant. If the turnout is 50% the 40% rule meant u had to have over 80%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland_referendum,_1979

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland_Act_1978

268

Independence? Bring it On!,

12/05/2008 17:15:40
SHOCK HORROR!!

Douglas Fraser in actually funny dig at the WENDY!

http://tinyurl.com/5cjboy
269

kimba,

12/05/2008 17:21:10
315."WHINGING ABOUT" If you had to sell your home so you could get care,you'd be bloody whinging.
270

kimba,

12/05/2008 17:24:37
326.Mainly as criminals on British prison ships.
271

Alba Abú,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 17:25:23
305. Kimba is much worse looking than her!
272

Alba Abú,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 17:28:30
268......Cannon fodder you mean.
273

kimba,

12/05/2008 17:29:21
326.In all, around 9,720 British convicts were sent directly to the colony in 43 ships between 1850-1868. Thirty seven of the voyages carried large numbers of prisoners from Scotland, although one voyage actually collected her load in Bermuda. The remaining six ships brought smaller cargoes of military prisoners from amongst the ranks of British troops serving in India.
274

kimba,

12/05/2008 17:30:59
331.And how the hell would you know!
275

Alba Abú,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 17:33:33
333 More statistics from the long gone evil British Empire.
276

 Ayrshire Scot™,

12/05/2008 17:35:05
335. We all saw the pictures. You are a minger.
277

Alba Abú,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 17:35:39
335. The word hell and you go well together.Proof enough?
278

Schot,

12/05/2008 18:07:42
The Alexanders are alumni of the 'British-American Project for the Successor Generation', a Reaginite project to popularise the US among the UK elite. Wendy's only job was three years with Booz Allen Hamilton, who according to SourceWatch, are one of the biggest suppliers of technology and personnel to the U.S. government’s spy agencies and the largest private employer of fomer spies.
279

acanthus,

12/05/2008 18:10:37
Let's go back to the old days when only English men/women were eligible for election to Parliament.


One of the more choice quotes from the Telegraph boards!

Got to laugh at them sometimes!
280

gus1940,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 18:16:54
I am glad to see that the divvying up of the UK Assets/Liabilities sfter independence is now under discussion.

If you continually talk about something as if it is going to happen people will start to believe that it will happen.

Therefore, I think The SNP and the other suporters of independence should should now start to list the Assets/Liabilities with a view to having a schedule thereof ready as our starting point for negotiations with The UK as soon as the rcferendum has been won.

It sbould be good for a fine series of ding dong arguments and keep independence in the headlines particularly south of the border from whence we should get some good old imperial arrogance when we make our demands.
281

gus1940,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 18:19:56
#86

Is it not the case that all oil already discovered belongs effectively to the oil companies the blocks having been auctioned off by The UK Government and that the?
282

acanthus,

12/05/2008 18:20:38

Another belter!

I think we are in the last days of the English. We have lost a war we didn't even realise we were fighting.

Rather like the Ancient Romans , our history will be written by others.

Maybe the world will be better off without us. Who can say ?

Brown and co clearly think so and have the nerve to lecture ME about "being "British"" !

Such ingratitude, perfidityt and downright treacherous behaviour is terribly, terribly UnBritish in itself.
283

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 12/05/2008 18:31:58
#343 The oil does. What we're talking about is the tax revenues from the oil.
284

gus1940,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 18:41:34
My #343 was truncated.

should have ended '--- government only has the right to colllect taxes on the oil extracted therefrom.
285

Flower of Scotland,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 18:43:59
What will England do without us? They have led us by the nose for the last three hundred years. Oh dear! Oh dear! The parting will be so full of pain for those he need the reassurance of their English masters,i.e.the Scottish unionists.
286

Flower of Scotland,

12/05/2008 18:47:18
Oops! correction! Should have read...... "For those who need the reassurance of their English masters" Sorry.
287

Independence? Bring it On!,

12/05/2008 18:50:06
#333 Kimba, why have you changed the text you posted #333 from English to Scottish?

The actual page you plagiarised and edited reads as follows:

"In all, around 9,720 British convicts were sent directly to the colony in 43 ships between 1850-1868. Thirty seven of the voyages carried large numbers of prisoners from "England", although one voyage actually collected her load in Bermuda. The remaining six ships brought smaller cargoes of military prisoners from amongst the ranks of British troops serving in India.

http://members.iinet.net.au/~perthdps/convicts/con-wa.html

Once again you've been caught out, you are the biggest liar on the Hootsman. Time after time you're caught out, yet you continue to post your bile here. I truly wish someone would write B N P on your forehead, then normal people would know to avoid you.
288

Flower of Scotland,

Glasgow 12/05/2008 18:53:58
333 Kimba ,you are a little minger.Stay out of my country's affairs.When I say "my country" I mean Scotland,not Britain.
289

kimba,

12/05/2008 19:08:48
349.Oh to wind you nats up is so much fun,you are so desperate to commit political suicide!
290

kimba,

12/05/2008 19:12:52
350.And who the hell do you think you are,as my gran lives in scotland,you can go to hell.
291

uno.who,

Livingston 12/05/2008 19:15:24
We told you that wee Wendy was thick when she came to office (Scottish Labour office, that is ... not the one she aspires to :-) ) and she's living proof that you should pick the right person for the job, and not the "preferred candidate" based on the current diversity trend !!
292

Flower of Scotland,

Glasgow 12/05/2008 19:22:34
#353 Oh Dear! Oh dear! the little minger is telling people to "go to Hell" Now that you come to mention it,if your granny is anything like you,she will have to go as well! Oh ye cannie shuv yer grannie aff the bus, ditto, oh ye cannie shuv yer grannie cos she is yer mammy's mammy, ye cannie shuv yer grannie aff the bus! In your case YOU CAN! haaa haaaaa haaaaa. Kimba and her wee granny lying on the road.What a sight to behold! Haaaaaa Haaaaaaa haaaaaaaaa.
293

Flower of Scotland,

Glasgow 12/05/2008 19:22:34
#353 Oh Dear! Oh dear! the little minger is telling people to "go to Hell" Now that you come to mention it,if your granny is anything like you,she will have to go as well! Oh ye cannie shuv yer grannie aff the bus, ditto, oh ye cannie shuv yer grannie cos she is yer mammy's mammy, ye cannie shuv yer grannie aff the bus! In your case YOU CAN! haaa haaaaa haaaaa. Kimba and her wee granny lying on the road.What a sight to behold! Haaaaaa Haaaaaaa haaaaaaaaa.
294

Flower of Scotland,

12/05/2008 19:23:30
just to make sure! Haaaaa haaaaaaa haaaaaaa.
295

McGinty,

12/05/2008 19:28:04
When Scottish labour get their act together, I'd rather see them in power post independence. But then again, come back Tommy Sheridan all is forgiven. You're an honourable man and potential first minister material. Eck will never be fit to tie your sandals
296

Phil C,

12/05/2008 19:28:58
#351 kimba's proctologist

Can you not force feed an overdose of the bloody things up her jacksy. If that's what the English Democrats have as support, Lord help them!
297

Phil C,

12/05/2008 19:39:11
#359 the goat

If you think Tommy's an honourable man then prove it by inviting him round for dinner when your girlfriend/wife is around!!

I trust you vote SNP now, though you sound like a Labour voter. I sincerely hope old Labour SNP voters can ditch their outdated Laboury/SSP ideas once and for all and start to apply fair common sense to their political thinking, instead of the traditional narrow minded and jealous guidelines they used to follow.
298

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 19:40:30
The Union is obviously in safe hands when it’s chief defenders are of the highest calibre, as represented by the ever popular figures of Bendy Wendy, (-22% popular rating), Mr Bean, (trailing the gormless “Dave” by some 26%), and of course by Kimba, whose encyclopedic knowledge of all things Scottish seems to have been gained from reading the lids on shortbread tins.
299

Independence? Bring it On!,

12/05/2008 19:50:06
#358 Phil...MaCrackin?
300

overshot,

perth 12/05/2008 19:54:39
A referendum in going to happen, without a doubt, get ready for it. Scaremongering will be rife. Alex Salmond has the ability to fight it, dont worry. As for the unionist, rectumendem. I am sorry i am dyslexic in 14 languages.

361
if you do invite tommy for dinner, and have to leave the room, you will know if anything untoward has happened. his tan would be all over your bird
301

kimba,

12/05/2008 19:57:26
355/360.aren't we brave little nats,all gob and no b-lls,hiding behind a computer.
302

overshot,

perth 12/05/2008 20:01:24
Bully We Alba
Brilliant analysis, take it easy please i have a bad back and it hurts like a Kimba when i laugh
303

kimba,

12/05/2008 20:07:27
363. Don't think the nats are doing any better with your support. Support for independence after 300 years of union with England varies from poll to poll, with a YouGov poll in Saturday's Times newspaper giving a figure of 19 per cent
304

Saoghal Beag,

12/05/2008 20:10:41
352 Kimba, sweet honey pie, it's labour that is committing suicide in Scotland at long last. Thank goodness they put UBendy in charge, what a star.
305

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 20:19:14
I see the world premiere of the movie “Sex In The City” is to be shown in London tonight.

At one time it was suggested that there could be a Scottish version, starring the chardonnay set of Bendy Wendy, Jackie the F’n Hutt and Margaret Curran.

Unfortunately, it was decided that the appeal of such a movie would be rather limited, probably only attracting the interest of former priests, granny bashing peers, and odd military types who appear to think that Falkirk is a suburb of London.
306

Independence? Bring it On!,

12/05/2008 20:20:49
#372 Bully, you've got it wrong the WENDY, Jackie the Hutt and Curran are set to appear in 'Desperate Fishwives'.
307

Phil C,

12/05/2008 20:21:09
#366 Kimba

Your comment is pure hypocrisy. You won't drum up support for your cause by posting here. Your posts are watered down irrelevance at best. Why don't you use your wonderful, warm and friendly literary talents to persuade your fellow countrymen to let us pesky Jocks leave you alone? Best do it on an English site though!
308

kimba,

12/05/2008 20:22:44
371. Thank you for being polite,that is true at the moment,but as the song goes,"things can only get better"
309

kimba,

12/05/2008 20:27:57
375. Ofcourse they are phil,funny how you rush to rebuke them!
310

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

12/05/2008 20:30:01
"#373 the SNP's referendum question does not need referral to Westminster"

Actually it does if you think about it.

“I AGREE that the Scottish Government should negotiate a settlement with the Government of the United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes anindependent state.”

Westminster would have to debate and vote on any settlement agreed by the UK Government and the Scottish Government.
311

kimba,

12/05/2008 20:31:08
373.If you think cameron will do that,you are truly twa bubbles aff the centre.
312

Phil C,

12/05/2008 20:31:10
#376

"Things can only get better" was Tony's song. It's lost all credibility now.... a bit like you?
313

Saoghal Beag,

12/05/2008 20:31:25
376 So very true, canny lass, once labour is wiped off the political map in Scotland, things certainly can only get better.
314

Rupert Buffoone,

12/05/2008 20:33:57
Kimba, various rambling, incoherant and illogical posts

There is an old Scottish proverb that could have been written for you.

IF YOU HAVE NOTHING SENSIBLE TO SAY - SAY NOTHING!
315

A voice from SCOTLAND..,

12/05/2008 20:41:50
Holyrood blog: Last lap for Labour
Posted by Douglas Fraser at 4:20pm today
Stop Press, Exclusive Scoop, etc!!

Wendy Alexander is set to announce a new challenge to the SNP about the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow. Scheduled for 2014, she is to tell Alex Salmond to "bring them on" – arguing that if the SNP is genuine in its enthusiasm for staging the Games in Glasgow, it should legislate for them to take place the year before then, in 2013.

Labour's thinking is that it needs to show "the hollowness of the SNP's commitment to the Commonwealth Games". According to one insider: "If New Delhi can stage the games in 2010, what on earth are we waiting for? If Alex Salmond were really behind Glasgow's games, he could even try to get in ahead of the Indian capital and have the Games next year."

The sudden shift of tactics is understood to have caused tensions with Prime Minister Gordon Brown, who fears that if Scottish Labour wants the Glasgow Commonwealth Games to be staged one year earlier than planned, he may come under pressure to bring the London Olympics forward to 2011 - potentially sending costs soaring. His spokesman says is is "not persuaded" of the case for "bringing them on", despite Ms Alexander telling associates she thinks he has agreed.

If the SNP First Minister refuses to bring forward the date of the Commonwealth Games, instead sticking to the existing timetable, sources close to Wendy Alexander say that she will be able to claim that she has called Alex Salmond's bluff, and she will label him "a cowardy custard".
316

weh,

12/05/2008 20:50:31
Gordon Brown has vowed to do "whatever is necessary" to preserve the United Kingdom and Gordon Brown won't let the Union split."


This sounds like a direct threat from the leader of a foreign country against the democratically elected govt of Scotland!

I trust Mr Salmond has duly informed the UN of this and is ready to inform us, the Scottish people of what tactics to take to counter this threat!
317

Saoghal Beag,

12/05/2008 20:54:14
386 You over estimate gordie's abilities. UBendy realises his bum is out the door and is resorting to all sorts of antics to preserve her own political butt. rabbits in headlights comes to mind, but it is all so very amusing.
318

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 12/05/2008 21:01:45
#380 And if you think Cameron would refuse to accede to the clear and democratically-expressed voice of the Scottish people and keep them in the Union against their wishes, you're an even bigger idiot than you've appeared so far today, which is an idiot approximately the size of Saturn.
319

Ugly George,

Ediburgh 12/05/2008 21:04:28
279 Rev S Campbell
How can you possibly state that UK national debt was incurred on things Scotland "never wanted?" One of the main reasonss for UK natioal debt being high is that it increased hugely during World War 2 as so much economic activity had to be diverted to the war effort. Are you saying that the people of Scotland did not want to stand up to Hitler and the Nazis in
1940?

Also, since then, national debt has gone into sustaining exxpenditurre on the two major items of govt. expenditure - the NHS and the welfare state. Compared to the annual expenditure on these the annual expenditure on things like Tident or Iraq are tiny - check the figures for yourself if you don't believe me.
If you state that national debt has been incurred on things that Scotland didn't want you are saying that the people of Scotland did not want an NHS or pensions, child benefit etc. This is where the vast majority of govt. money goes. Perhaps you did not want these things but it is rather presumptive of you to assume that you speak for everybody in Scotland.
320

Saoghal Beag,

12/05/2008 21:04:59
388 funniest thing of all, she is in geordie-land. pair sowl, but it does explain a lot of her postings.
321

mike3,

Midlands 12/05/2008 21:28:41
What a hapless crew. Two brain cells to rub together is a winning combination.
322

Flower of Scotland,

glasgow 12/05/2008 21:43:45
366 Kimba.... Oh! I can promise you that I have big b-lls,and they are not hiding behind a computer. I think the big gob belongs to you.
323

Van (not white) Diesel,

Amsterdam & Augsburg 12/05/2008 21:54:51
386
No need to worry, or involve the UN. It is rumoured that GB intends to be all things to all men (and women), and is taking a crash course in Morris Dancing whilst wearing a kilt, lederhosen, with a string of onions around his neck.
324

Boggle fey the Bog,

12/05/2008 22:08:06
386 weh,12/05/2008 20:50:31

Brown has certainly shown by that statement, that regardless of a any vote by the people of Scotland to pursue the road to Independence, that he will try to thwart it at every turn!!!

The use of the phrase 'Whatever is necessary' is not even a veiled threat of violence against the Scottish people, but an outright promise that if we go down the road of Freedom he is willing to use force majeure to prevent the lawful objective of self-determination, which his government have 'signed up to' by the adoption of the ECHR in it's entirety in the Scotland Act.
If further proof was required, that this Government are 'war mongers' and 'criminals' were need then this is the 'Smoking Gun'

Gordon Brown has effectively declared war on Scotland.

I urge every true and loyal citizen of this fair country to write to their Labour, Tory and Lib-Dem MSP's and MP's demanding that they 'impeach' this 'criminal and warmonger' and go on record to say that they will accept the 'settled will' of the Scottish people, if they vote for Independence in the forthcoming Referendum.
325

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 22:25:35
393
Peter
The national debt run up in the war is totally different to the debt that was arranged with the USA which was part of a lend-lease agreement. You have obviously confused the two.
You also don't seem to understand the difference between balance of trade surplus/deficit and national debt.
Also your assertion that tax pays for the NHS is inaccurate - the reason national debt is run up is that the tax receipts don't cover the expenditure thus forcing the govt. to borrow to make up the difference.Over the years since the war the govt has not been able to raise enough tax to cover expenditure on things like the NHS - that's why debt has risen.

I also notice that you quote infrastructure projects in London. It appears that London is'nt allowed to build a public toilet without people in Scotland moaning about it. But if we are looking at infrastructure, look at more examples of how national debt might have occurred over the years - when the Tay Road Bridge was completed in 1966 Fife had 4 of the 10 longest bridges in the world. Look at the miles of road and rail per head of population in Scotland and the UK - the level is much higher in Scotland. To start saying that national debt is a result of an infrastructure here or there is futile as it all amounts to a small figure compared to the big items - NHS and Social Security (total of £260bn per annum) The cost of something like portcullis House is tiny compared to these.
326

Saoghal Beag,

12/05/2008 22:33:54
398 Boggle but how will broon manage when he doesn't have a seat at westminster? Not really worth worrying about the man, nor UBendy, they are both on their way out.
327

Napoleon the cat,

On the litter tray 12/05/2008 22:43:31
One step at a time chaps! Before divvying up the debts and assets, we need to make sure that the question is decent honest truthful and legal, and that the Scots in their totality are enfranchised to vote.

An example; overseas registered voters (Scots, UK citizens, passport holders) can currently vote in teh UK elections BUT CAN'T VOTE IN THE SCOTTISH ONES.

You take the Scots Diaspora (who are naturally more nationalist; not having to live with reality but tending towards a rosy nostalgic glow) and add them into the equation, and it really will be a no-brainer.

I've worked in 4 countries in 7 years for companies from Yrp, the UK, the US and the UAE and they've all been hoaching with Jocks..... all gagging for independence. Why? Because if we can run/manage/create all those worldwide companies, we can run a wee tiny cute wee country, can't we? Especially as its got oil and we're world leaders in teh oil industry...
328

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 22:54:40
401 Napoleon
Sounds a bit like the Sean Connery version of nationalism - very keen on an independent Scotland from the comfort of the Bahamas.
There would be a problem in ascertaining which UK passport holders would be eligible to vote. Would you have to have been born in Scotland or have one parent born here?
329

Fairfax,

12/05/2008 23:37:30
Peter (393): "Scotland had a trade surplus prior to 1707, no national debt, we got that with the Union."

Scotland didn't have a national debt pre-1707, in the sense that it had no central bank raising money through bonds. It did, however, still raise money -- the idea that Scotland had no debt pre-1707 is quite wrong. For example, the Company of Scotland, initially founded to rival the English East India Company, and later the proponent of the Darien Scheme, was one such method to raise funds, although it did so through equity in its projects, rather than bonds: in other words, the Government was spreading its risk amongst its funders. With the failure of Darien, those funders of the Scheme faced bankruptcy, of course -- hardly a good way for the state to fund its wishes.
330

Spoot,

Third rock pool on the left 12/05/2008 23:47:49
#399

Given that Scotland accounts for 32% of the total land area of the UK, don't you agree that there is a case for arguing that there is a shortfall in spending on infrastructure projects north of the border?
331

Fairfax,

12/05/2008 23:53:56
Spoot (404): "Given that Scotland accounts for 32% of the total land area of the UK, don't you agree that there is a case for arguing that there is a shortfall in spending"

Hmm... So it's Scotland's oil, but Scotland's higher infrastructure costs should be paid by the UK. More seriously, area is not the relevant statistic here: you should be considering the total road-length to be maintained.
332

McGinty,

12/05/2008 23:56:25
Phil o' sh*t C. If you're going to get smart, bring it on wideboy, but scum like you are cockier on the internet than up front, so either it's swords and pistols or answer politely or begone.
333

danbob,

13/05/2008 00:04:39
Why scots are so pre occupied with independence is rather puzzling to the majority of folk in England. We hear you going on and on about how north sea oil and gas is all yours and how it will fund this, and that and blah, blah, blah. Your just sleep walking into a nightmare. If you get fourty years out of it you will be doing well. What then? You going to just shrivell up and die.
334

Dekester,

Canada's westcoast 13/05/2008 00:22:36
#401.

Thanks for the post. A significant number of the many Scots I know out here in Vancouver are really getting into this.

I was born in Scotland. Educated in Scotland and hold a Euro passport. There are thousands like me here in BC alone.Who are very enthused over the prospect of Scotland having it's freedom.

Ideas anyone on how to get us a vote on independence. Is it as simple as having an address back home in time for the referendum?
If an SNP supporter, or any Scotland first supporter for that matter.Has any suggestions. It will be a winner, guaranteed.

All the best.
335

livilion,

livingston 13/05/2008 00:47:59
#403 Fairfax,
>>>Peter (393): "Scotland had a trade surplus prior to 1707, no national debt, we got that with the Union."<<<

Peter was right but the rot had set in 100 years earlier.
Scotland was clicking along just fine until James VI became James I of England in 1603 and turned his back on his homeland.

Up untill that point the East coast trading ports of Scotland had done great business with the Low Countries and the cities of the former Hanseatic League, the characteristic ceramic roof tiles evident in much of Fife being the lasting visual legacy, coming across as ships ballast from the continent.

With the Union of 1603 Scotland was cut off from these trading partners who were enemies of England and emptied those once thriving ports.
There was to be no compensating access to England's markets or colonies, indeed Scottish vessels were attacked and sunk by English ships right up until 1707, the Darien project being a case in point sabotaged by Scotland's nominal monarch with a stake in both the Dutch and English East India Companies.

Scotland was also on the sh!t end of the stick during the 'Glorious Revolution' at the hands of Oliver Cromwell and his roundhead army during the mid to late 1600s.
Latterly she came off second best in a trade war with her larger southern neighbour, which basically cut off Scottish exports completely and caused financial ruin for much of the merchant class in Scotland. It would be like the economy of the USA taking on that of the UK in today's terms.

That said, we actually did in fact aquire our national debt from England(contrary to the terms of the Treaty of Union) to help pay for her military adventures, this also being the prime mover in the formation of the Bank of England by William Paterson.
336

livilion,

livingston 13/05/2008 00:52:49
408 Dekester
Sorry mate the only way you'll get a vote is if you are on the local electoral register in Scotland.

Btw I've got family in Canada any chance of me getting a vote over there?
337

Dekester,

Canada's westcoast 13/05/2008 02:51:02
No problem Livilion 410.

I assume you were born and educated in Canada. Then became a UK subject.(LOL)

It really was a question that will need to be answered though. How would the Scottish government deal with overseas nationals.Like it or not many of us are UK citizens. Are all citizens not equal?
My personal situation is that I will be domiciling in Scotland within a few years, but as yet never voted in any elections in Scotland. It really is not about me though the question will be a complex one.

All the best.
338

livilion,

livingston 13/05/2008 08:00:31
411 Dekester
You could try going for a postal ballot.

Apparently there's been a fair bit of jiggery pokery over these and we were warned that some English Labour politicians had been caught out 'manipulating' the system the year before the last Holyrood election.

Of course were they only the dumb ones who got caught? It seems to me no-one wants to know the full extent to which the postal ballot system was abused.

My understanding is that if you fulfill the residency criteria and get yourself onto the electoral register you can have your vote. The SNP printed a load of material in Polish at the last elections for migrant workers who qualified.

When I lived in London though I lost my Scottish vote until I came home. I missed out on the Devolution referendum.
339

Fairfax,

13/05/2008 09:13:01
Livilon (407): "indeed Scottish vessels were attacked and sunk by English ships right up until 1707"

That's not entirely correct. You have omitted the Cromwellian unification of England, Scotland and Ireland, from 1651 until the Restoration in 1660, following Cromwell's defeat and conquest of Scotland. During this period, Scotland had entirely equal access to England's market, and Scottish ships were part of the Commonwealth of England.

"the Darien project being a case in point sabotaged by Scotland's nominal monarch"

England was entirely correct to be hostile to Scotland here, since the Darien Scheme opposed our interests: it was naively optimistic for Scotland to believe otherwise -- imagine the conversation: "We have this excellent massive gamble which, if successful, would undermine your primary multinational. Do you want to help us?" However, even had England been positive this Scheme would have failed due to the extremely high disease rate. As for the sabotage due to Scotland's nominal monarch, I view that as unfair: William had no Scottish ships present to provide assistance, and he had no authority to order the English Royal Navy to assist.
340

Fairfax,

13/05/2008 09:18:12
Livilion (412): "My understanding is that if you fulfill the residency criteria and get yourself onto the electoral register you can have your vote."

That's correct, but I wonder what the reaction will be when it's understood that 10% of those eligible to vote are English, resident in Scotland. Now certainly some of the English component support independence, but I suspect many would not. What would the Scottish reaction be if (i) the referendum was close, but supported the status quo, and (ii) poll data strongly suggested the English contingent had voted for the status quo? There is an inevitable conflict here between Scotland as ethnic nation and enlightenment nation.
341

livilion,

livingston 13/05/2008 10:42:30
414 Fairfax
Sorry Fairfax but where you were born or brought up doesn't actually come into it.

As I mentioned, migrants to Scotland are entitled to vote in Scotland provided they meet the residency criteria.

In my experience many of these, even the English ones, are more pro-Scottish independence than the 'natives', some have even been elected to senior office at Holyrood as Scottish National Party MSPs.

Scottish nationalism is based on an inclusive civic nationalsm which is at odds with the right wing ethnic nationalism I suspect you may have been exposed to.
342

livilion,

livingston 13/05/2008 11:38:08
413 Fairfax,
Ok call me a liar for the 9 years that Cromwell was in power.
I'm not so sure about the mindset of the people of England who had been at recieving end of an invasion by an initially victorious Scottish army which then switched sides and was eventually defeated by the Roundheads.
As for the question of equal access to English markets I bow to your apparent superior intimacy with the subject, but ask is this likely for a nation being governed by an army of occupation?

The second point about the King's role in the Darien project, you call it naive of the Scots to expect the King of Scots to support them in their endevours?
Not so long before assuming the throne of England, Good King Billy's Dutch armies had repeatedly defeated the English.

Another case perhaps of what might have been good for England being poisonous to Scotland?

The Darien scheme had been initially mooted by the Spanish, who had no issues with colonisation in the Americas, as a way of avoiding the passage of their treasure ships around what is still the most dangerous sea route on the planet, down around the Cape and through the enormous seas of sub-Antartic waters using 15th century technology.

All that was required was the building of a fifty mile road across the Isthmus of Panama and port facilities at either end.


They had to give it up because of war with England.

After the Scots, the French had a go but thought the project so 'do-able' that they elected to go one step better and build a canal. Unfortunately for them they underestimated the earth moving capability required to achieve this.

Eventually the Darien scheme was realised by the USA who used steam technology to move the monumental quantities quickly enough to build the Panama Canal.

Had King William gotten behind the Darien project he could have funded as many wars as his heart desired from the tolls he could have extracted from merchants who would have beaten a track to send their goods more q
343

Endangeredscot,

13/05/2008 16:58:12
407 danbob wrote "...blah, blah, blah. Your just sleep walking into a nightmare. If you get fourty years out of it you will be doing well. What then? You going to just shrivell up and die"

No, nor even shrivel up and die. Out of that forty years we will invest in our own country, have fiscal policies that benefit and are designed for our country and generally will have a swell time having a pint or two with our neighbours of which we'll be pleased and proud to count your good self.

Life will go on, just a bit more for the sake of our own nation, as opposed to being in favour and for the oinkers who scurry round the Westminster trough looking for state-handouts in the form of free hooses, ermine and gongs.

I would have thought you'd be pleased to get rid of them too. Our problem is what to do with the parasites...
344

Fairfax,

13/05/2008 19:20:01
Livilion (415): "Scottish nationalism is based on an inclusive civic nationalsm which is at odds with the right wing ethnic nationalism I suspect you may have been exposed to."

You have misunderstood my point: I am aware that the SNP emphasizes that they do not support ethnic nationalism, to their credit. However, it is naive to suppose that this is shared by all Scots -- after all, the SNP would not have to emphasize their non-ethnic nationalism if ethnic nationalism were rare.
345

Fairfax,

13/05/2008 19:31:23
livilion (416): "As for the question of equal access to English markets I bow to your apparent superior intimacy with the subject, but ask is this likely for a nation being governed by an army of occupation?"

To my knowledge, yes. The Commonwealth yoke was really quite mild, but one of its key contributions was the abolition of internal tolls.

"you call it naive of the Scots to expect the King of Scots to support them in their endevours?"

No. I stated it was naive of the Scots to expect England to support them. Now there were no other Scots forces present for William, acting as King of Scots, to order to Darien's assistance. There were certainly English forces present, but England did not support Darien: it would have been unconstitutional for William to have ordered English forces to aid Scots here. This is the key point: William had to balance his duties as King of England and King of Scots when his kingdoms' policies were nutually opposed.

"Had King William gotten behind the Darien project he could have funded as many wars as his heart desired from the tolls"

You have misunderstood the King of England's powers after the Glorious Revolution of 1688: William did not have this option even had he wished, since the Parliament of England itself opposed Darien. As for the possibility of fortunes from tolls, I suspect the English view was, primarily, that success was too unlikely to risk.
346

Fanling,

Switzerland 13/05/2008 20:59:23
#78 Methalions (and others above)
"The rogue apostrophe looms yet again."

What "rogue apostrophe"? "Yours" (no apostrophe, as in "yours truly") is correct in the context. For once, The Scotsman got it right.
347

danbob,

13/05/2008 21:20:18
Do you think we could re-draw the border from say Hull to Merseyside? Northern England has far more in common with Scotland than the South of England. As a scot living in northern England I do find the events over the past 10 years rather bewildering. Reading some posts regarding independence they are full of hate. And why? Nobody living near me here 90 mile south of the border has a bad word to say for anyone from Scotland. Where or where do these negative feelings come from.
348

Truely English,

13/05/2008 21:47:04
421

I couldn't agree more. Why all this anti-English venom that simply doesn't stop?
349

danbob,

14/05/2008 11:16:55
#423: There are no plans to invest oil and gas revenue like Norway does, from the scots nats. It will just be lumped into the pot to fund social and capital spending. What the problem could be in future years is the opposition to nuclear power. The world demand for oil and gas is going up and this will get worse as China and India demand more for their growing economies. We can see this now. When Thatcher shut down the mines and decided to build gas power stations instead of using coal it was a catastrophic error. We are now paying high costs for the gas to make the electric. To dismiss nuclear power like the scots nats are doing is just head in the sand stuff. As the gas runs down more electric is needed to fill the void. Scotland will not have the generating capacity.
350

ThomasP,

Scotland, Aberdeen 22/05/2008 21:30:45
399 danbob

Hello there,

Sorry to burst your bubble but the S.N.P. are actually well prepared for the future in terms of energy.

The S.N.P. have so far accepted enough proposals to ensure that by 2020 that Scotland generates 50% of her electricity from re-newables.

Westminister so far has focused on nuclear power. Nuclear is not re-newable and of course costs alot more money to operate because you have to dispose of the waste afterwards which is not easy.
351

M.Corleone,

2nd Vatican State....Coatbridge 27/06/2008 17:32:46
Let's take it one step at a time, we need to instill confidence in the populace; 2010 is fine and anyway Wendy won't be around then. Some other clown will be running labour...where is Coco these day's ?? Oh, forgot , he's in number 10.

What a decision maker by the way..is our GB (is that where he gets the British thing from??)..waited all these years on TB's coat-tails, sold his soul to the devil en route, and reaped the whirlwind

 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
  

 
 


Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.