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The end - downfall of 'the most powerful man in Scotland'

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Published Date: 21 November 2008
THEY were unlikely attackers – pensioners, in the main, with small shareholdings in the Royal Bank of Scotland. Their target was Sir Fred Goodwin, the chief executive they had once lauded, now the man many blamed for the fall of their once-great institution.
He was already reeling from the effects of the ABN Amro deal, multi-billion-pound write-downs, a controversial rights issue and a disastrous economic climate.

And yesterday, in voting to sell up to the government and therefore remove him from his position at the head of the bank, the shareholders delivered the final blow.

Until now, they had been forced to watch helpless as their share values plummeted. The bank which had to them seemed infallible had slumped so far that they chose to accept a deal that saw the government pump in £20 billion in exchange for up to 60 per cent of the bank.

And each felt the loss personally. In RBS, the meaning of a share is literal. It is a little piece of the 300-year-old bank which may have been passed down through generations and which is a great source of pride.

Fred the Shred – known as such for his relentless job slashing – sat disarmed and defenceless on the right of the chairman, Sir Tom McKillop, who bore the brunt of most of the punches.

Yesterday's meeting in Edinburgh, convened to vote on the government's bail-out offer, was nearly over by the time Sir Fred was called upon directly from the floor.

A small shareholder and former member of staff called for him to make a personal apology – a request which was met with support across the room.

Sir Fred mustered no defence. The man once described as the most powerful in Scotland – above the First Minister – got to his feet and struggled with a microphone. His clearly unrehearsed statement was honest and direct: "I would just like to say I am extremely sorry this has come about. I entirely accept what the chairman expressed on behalf of all the board … I am extremely sorry.

"And I am sad to be leaving the company during this extremely difficult time. There is no question other than I am extremely sorry."

Face drawn, eyes shadowed and shoulders slumped in his last, ignominious moments as chief executive, he glanced across an ocean of accusing faces.

Overwhelmingly elderly, many former bankers themselves, they rely on the dividends paid out on their shares. The government deal some claimed afterwards to have been forced into, means none will be paid for the foreseeable future.

Sir Fred would probably have recognised many of the shareholders from the halcyon annual general meetings of years past – years which had seen him grow RBS from a secure, respected high street bank to a global player. Yesterday's meeting was a far cry from those when the bank was riding high, when he was lauded for his acquisitions of NatWest and ABN – when that was still seen as a triumph.

But the former law student and trained accountant also would have remembered the more recent summits such as the war council in which he had to go cap in hand to beg those upturned faces to buy more in a rights issue he had earlier indicated would not happen.

Those were the meetings which had essentially brought him to this one, deep inside the Kirk's Assembly Hall, just across the Mound from the headquarters of Scotland's other once-venerable bank, HBOS.

The board of RBS began to arrive at the hall at about 1:45pm. Dark people-carriers glided over the cobbles to stop in front of the waiting press. Sir Fred and Sir Tom disembarked together, both wearing the dark blue dotted ties of RBS – the team colours a show of solidarity.

Side by side, with grim expressions, they walked in to ask shareholders to approve a deal which has been foisted upon them in desperate times. Behind them was Stephen Hester, a former finance chief of Abbey, who takes over the chief executive post.

Inside, Mr Hester set about building the new regime. As shareholders filled the sunken room, he walked around introducing himself and shaking hands – a public relations touch which Sir Fred would have been unlikely to embrace. Mr Hester admitted that "these things can be quite hostile and it's good to prevent that".

In the corridor outside, lined with tables of coffee and shortbread, that hostility was mounting. "We feel a bit let down," admitted one elderly couple. A younger man was less reserved. "I blame Fred," he said. "So does everyone."

The board filed in behind a curved panel on a raised stage in front of blue velvet curtains. Ahead of their arrival, choral music played among the panelled walls. It was a scene which jarred somewhat with the image of a group humbled by the results of its decisions and actions.

Sir Tom's opening speech was received warmly, for the most part. As The Scotsman reported he would yesterday, he said he was "profoundly sorry" for the trouble the bank found itself in.

He explained it was as a result of the world financial turmoil and, in particular, two exacerbating factors.

"First, the group's historic use of an efficient balance sheet meant that we entered the period of significant market dislocation with a capital base that was, with hindsight, low relative to the size of our balance sheet … The second factor was the acquisition of ABN Amro."

He said the purchase of the Dutch bank in October 2007, as part of a £61 billion consortium, had been reasonable at the time because "the cost and revenue benefits it presented, and still present to the group, alongside the opportunity to accelerate our strategic growth, were significant". He admitted that the higher exposure to assets which it entailed "increased the short-term vulnerability of the group to the financial crisis as it intensified this year."

However, his contention that "at all times we have sought to ensure that the best interests of shareholders have been protected" was met with snorts of derision.

"You may laugh," he told them, verging on anger. "I can assure you that is the way the board has conducted itself."

When he opened the floor to questions, there were many.

Alan Jack said a prudent bank should have built up a "buffer of capital" to withstand a recession.

"It could even be said that the board, at times, has adopted a gung-ho attitude … the result has been the frittering away of shareholder's equity," he added.

Brian Peart, chairman of the north-east branch of the UK Shareholders Association, said he believed the situation could have been handled differently so the shareholders would not be "blatantly robbed of their assets".

One of the few women to ask a question highlighted the gargantuan presence of RBS in Edinburgh, and the importance it held for the capital and the country's economy. She asked whether all the bank's buildings at The Gyle and Gogarburn were used. That area of the city is defined by RBS, whose iron logo hangs from a bridge on the outskirts.

Sir Tom insisted that, to his knowledge, they were full of workers. But the worry for them today, with Mr Hester now in charge, is how many of them will remain.

When the questions petered out, not long after Sir Fred's apology, the vote was called. The government package was accepted by 99.28 per cent and opposed by just 0.72 per cent. A second resolution, lifting a banking rule to allow the deal to go through, was passed by 99.3 per cent to 0.64 per cent.

Under the terms of the £20 billion capital raising, RBS will raise up to £15 billion from investors by selling shares at 65.5 pence each. If the shares are not taken up, the government will acquire them. Given that the share price at market close yesterday was 46p, it is likely they will be left for the taxpayer. The government will also directly buy preference shares in the bank – worth a total of £5 billion.

The deal sees Mr Hester replace Sir Fred, although the latter will stay on the board until next year to smooth the transition.

Sir Tom concluded the day's business and the board dispersed, leaving Sir Fred standing alone on the stage as the shareholders and journalists closed in.

He told them in soft tones at odds with his reputation in the city: "It's a very important meeting. None of us are happy. It was important to have the meeting. I thought Sir Tom surmised the position well. I think he got the sense across to people. I think that was as important as the words." He said he would have been sorry to leave the bank in any circumstances but particularly in the ones he found himself.

He added: "It's been important to get through today and get the bank handed over to Stephen. It's very important for the bank to be forward looking and get through this." With that, he walked out towards the darkness of the Mound.

Page 1 of 1

 
1

Rufus T. Firefly,

20/11/2008 22:57:10
Jock Tamson, read this bit.........

Hopefully it clarifys the position for you.

"Under the terms of the £20 billion capital raising, RBS will raise up to £15 billion from investors by selling shares at 65.5 pence each. If the shares are not taken up, the government will acquire them. Given that the share price at market close yesterday was 46p, it is likely they will be left for the taxpayer. The government will also directly buy preference shares in the bank – worth a total of £5 billion."
2

Another Saturday Night,

21/11/2008 00:14:31
Official figures announced reported that 67,000 businesses closed in China in 2008.

Salmond- still like the Chinese model, do you?
3

subrosa,

21/11/2008 00:37:24
# 2

Do you mean Chinese banks?
4

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 21/11/2008 01:21:42


Not involved in this discussion, simply don't know enough about it, to make comment! (with realism's)


5

Keyboard supporter,

21/11/2008 04:45:26
The irony of the poor shareholders requesting a personal apology from Fred the Shred.

Only last year with their "bumper profits" they were lauding his acumen and cared not an iota about the thousands he threw on the scrapheap - the market will decide they tell us and they were right.

A once proud institution now a laughing stock caused by unfathomable greed and duplicity from pseudo intellectual spivs.
6

Ubi,

Edinburgh 21/11/2008 05:49:33
There must surely be an investigation to establish just how truthful, accurate and legal were the many statements made by RBS in the course of pursuing deals and raising funds.
7

FISHWICK,

berwick upon tweed 21/11/2008 07:09:00
RBS ties - a collector's item? - worth more than the shares?
8

Captain Fantastic,

Anywhere but here 21/11/2008 07:21:54
As a shareholder in RBS (and other institutions) I accept that my investments can go up as well as down. However what has happened at RBS is little short of fraud IHMO. I find it hard to believe that back in April when RBS launced its first right issue at £2.00/share, it was not aware that these problems were stacking up. Therefore, the reassuring statements made in the issue prospectus were lies. I don't want worthless apologies frm incompetent greedy fools, but I do want justice and the guilty punished.
9

Captain Fantastic,

Anywhere but here 21/11/2008 07:23:31
Oops. I meant down as we as up. Too early in the morning.
10

,

21/11/2008 07:36:52
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11

The Glasgow Ranger,

Edinburgh 21/11/2008 07:59:48
The smug Goodwin - plenty of time on his hands now to devote to his hobby of restoring classic cars.

The wheels will come off these as well.

Muppet.
12

Another Saturday Night,

21/11/2008 08:02:34
A short poem

The End?


Is this the end?

It took so long to come

But when it's over

There's nothing left to say
13

Another Saturday Night,

21/11/2008 08:04:14
Salmond out fishing today?

No bridges to open, so I imagine he has time on his hands.

14

,

21/11/2008 08:15:36
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15

Rufus T. Firefly,

21/11/2008 08:19:24
#18 McKellerator.

You are for once correct, you are alone.
16

Another Saturday Night,

21/11/2008 08:27:33
Brown, as ever, in contact with all the top leaders around the globe. Working on the strategy.

Salmond, as ever, at home with a book.Working on the dining table.
17

UrbanFox,

21/11/2008 08:33:23
Has to be said that these are the same shareholders that voted FOR the ABN Amro takeover and that would have been lauding Sir Fred to the skies if the RBS share price had soared upwards as a result.
18

,

21/11/2008 08:34:25
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19

Another Saturday Night,

21/11/2008 08:41:20
"Chesty" Salmond stays at home.

Anti-biotics required.

Must be serious.


Next, said the doctor....
20

Dave,

Western Isles 21/11/2008 08:47:32
If it was a Labour led government in Scotland, I can assure you the leader (such as MacConell etc) would also NOT be flying around the World contacting other leaders as the ultimate responsibility is still in Westminster.

A Labour government in Scotland is still a puppet of Westmonster.

Sadly, the SNP lead Scottish Government is still a puppet to Westminster but at least Salmond is questioning everything to try get a better deal for us.

Labour came up with the Slogan "The Best Small Country in the World" in the FULL knowledge that they themselves regard Scotland as only a REGION of the UK not a country. Hypocrisy? You better believe it!

It's knob touching rockets like you and Rufass that do Scotland down, not Salmond.
21

Another Saturday Night,

21/11/2008 08:48:25
Salmond hides behind his "anti-biotics".

Can't face "the music".

I will bring bidders to the table, I will bring the bones back, I will win. I am a winner.

Yes, Salmond is a whinger (my teeth again)
22

Another Saturday Night,

21/11/2008 08:49:58
Salmond always said he modelled himself on Ally McCloud.
23

roadstohell,

21/11/2008 08:51:28
#22 I must say you have an elegant debating style
24

Dave,

Western Isles 21/11/2008 08:51:58
Empty Rhetoric.

Baseless accusations.

Immoral uninformed bleatings.

You are a perfect candidate for Broons job.
25

,

21/11/2008 08:52:51
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26

,

21/11/2008 08:53:33
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27

Another Saturday Night,

21/11/2008 08:54:22
Dave

Are you up early or going to bed late.

A wee leaky pipe is it this time

28

,

21/11/2008 08:55:13
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29

Another Saturday Night,

21/11/2008 09:00:09
#32

You better ask "Professor" Salmond.

30

,

21/11/2008 09:05:01
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31

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/11/2008 09:05:26
33 Another#

Thought you were Scottish? You can't even spell a Scottish name right you un-educated buffoon lol.

It's MacLeod or McLeod. Where did your brain conjure up that spelling..are you still at primary level?
32

Nevsky,

Moscow 21/11/2008 09:11:08
34 McKellarator#

Seems he thinks he has enough insight to know what is best for the Scottish economy but not enough basic education to spell a very common name in Scotland correctly.

Fairly disgraceful education system if this is the level it is producing.

Maybe he could have a go at Menguiesss Cambull next!
33

Another Saturday Night,

21/11/2008 09:14:53
As I thought.

All the same as Salmond.

Know your heros.....
34

Ewan Oosami,

21/11/2008 09:16:20
#8 It should come as no surprise to anyone that Question Time did not mention this, it's the BBC (Biased Broadcasting Clowns - and I cleaned that up) who pick the questions to be aired and we all know where their loyalties lie.
35

Another Saturday Night,

21/11/2008 09:17:00
I do enjoy it when the Crofters fight back.

Always plenty of substance for us to have a good laugh at.

36

Another Saturday Night,

21/11/2008 09:18:40
Mr Norway

Do you like tomatoes?
37

AJ Fife,

21/11/2008 09:21:09
The Union dividend strikes again!
38

Dave,

Western Isles 21/11/2008 09:22:03
Oh well

As the saying goes "I blame the government". And that government will be the one that the sheep voted in Westminster.

The backlash will be palpable come the spring.
39

Dragonlord,

21/11/2008 09:22:45
Why is no-one asking sir Fred, to return some of the disgustingly obscene bonus he got last year?
40

Andrew Allan,

21/11/2008 09:25:51
I have continually said on this site watch for the destruction of our institutions. If the unionists wished to reduce Scottish identity to prevent an upwelling of national pride associated with a push for independence, this is what you would need to look out for.
41

,

21/11/2008 09:28:03
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42

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/11/2008 09:31:14
44 Andrew Allan
Please look at the reality. RBS got itself into trouble with its aggressive expaqnsion plans and is now being bailed out with £20bn of taxpayers money so that it can remain in existence.

How you can portray this as unionists trying to destroy it defies all logic and reason.
43

Elephant,

Linlithgow 21/11/2008 09:35:40
The lack of Question Time interest shows how mainstream interest has moved on. This issue was over for most people when the govt stepped in and secured their savings. Or perhaps Glaswegians just ain't as bothered as Edinburgh folk, since most of the shock has been felt in the east? In the scheme of the global crisis and the job losses now sweeping through this islands I'd rather have a PM working abroad on macro level solutions, than trying to hold up a crumbling wall on the Mound.
44

Son of one of Stirlings finest,

Weston Super Mare 21/11/2008 09:41:33
17# Another Sat Night, I suspect the only time on Salmonds hands is an extremely vulgar Rolex Lobster watch given to him by Donald Trump.
45

Warden An' All, Reborn,

21/11/2008 09:47:50
24-Dave-You call the Labour Party in Scotland puppets of Westminster, I’m I right? The Scottish Labour Party would say they are working as a cohesive unit within Great Britain as a part of the Union, and so not puppets but working parts of a much larger machine.

46

,

21/11/2008 09:49:56
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47

Another Saturday Night,

21/11/2008 09:53:03
Shouldn't drink when you're on "anti-biotics"

Can Salmond keep his flask on his hip?

Rolex time will tell
48

Another Saturday Night,

21/11/2008 10:12:27
Salmond sweats a lot when he is on the bevvy, but maybe more now he has to be "off it"

"Nixon" Salmond is going to have his turkey early this year
49

subrosa,

21/11/2008 10:25:21
# 47
'I'd rather have a PM working abroad on macro level solutions, than trying to hold up a crumbling wall on the Mound.'

I'd rather have a PM who spent his time working for the UK and not rushing round the world desperate to be seen as a hero. Shame his posing didn't work isn't it. Nobody took any attention of his 'save the world' policies in the past few weeks.

Why would other countries listen to Brown when they know full well that he's as big a part of the banking problem as the US.

Just because some award winning economist and a couple of journalists said Brown was wonderful, people have the sense to make their own judgements. People don't think so. Europe is listening to France and ignoring the UK.


50

noswod,

Honestas 21/11/2008 10:28:28
Aye its an awfi business. Sometimes shareholders when yer place 50bn on number 35 it disney come up. Well we placed 250bn on number 36 and on dear nay pay oot and a oor fellow punters lost their wee shirts. Running a bank we werney daeing that pal we were running a gang o punters and ma Ego who got fleeced by the big bouys. Weel that a for now sorry your starving I aff doon the betting shop tae meet ma pla Alex.
51

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 21/11/2008 10:31:52
57 - spot on . No one listens to Brown . No-one . Campbell is just trying to spin us a pack of lies and I am worried folk are starting to believe it .
I am also curious why Robert Peston , that well-known Labour voter , told us months ago the Lloyds-HBOS takeover WOULD go ahead . That is the job of shareholders to decide . Something stinks about the whole business , has it been engineered by Labour to present Clunk as our saviour ?? The whole HBOS deal happened too quickly to be true .
52

Skiver,

21/11/2008 10:32:47
Another Saturday Night.

Absolutely cringeworthy chat as usual.

There's a whole world out there you know.
53

Memyself&I,

21/11/2008 10:44:51
Isn't wee fat Eck the most powerful man in Scotland? lol

In his dreams.
54

The Strategist,

21/11/2008 10:48:37
I note that Gordon Brown wasn't sitting alongside Fred Goodwin ready with his apology for having failed everyone by not ensuring the FSA and the Treasury were doing their job and keeping a proper eye on what the Goodwins of the world were up to.

He might also have apologised for having excluded house price inflation from the inflation figure the BoE used to determine interest rates because he knows now that had rates gone much higher then it would have killed off or at least squeezed the credit boom.
55

fegan,

N/Ireland 21/11/2008 10:51:19
As an RDS Share holder I feel that the whole thing is nothing more than theater. Talk is cheep nether of the Sir,s have given up any of there ill gotten gains.
In any other walk of life what they have presided over is nothing short of duplicity bordering on what could be only described as fraud. It is rather strange they all seem to have Knight Hoods, wonder why?.
I think a prerequisite of holding down such positions should be NO Knights as they all seem to be protected by the establishment, This is not in the interest of the share holders.
56

AJ Fife,

21/11/2008 11:03:28
Didn't the lad Nick Leeson(sp?) do time for destroying a bank?
57

Darien,

Panama 21/11/2008 11:09:02
Another Union Dividend for all those Scots bank shareholders. That's what Scots get when they vote for any BritNatz party - sold down the swanney in the bigger Brit interest/agenda. There is only one party with a Scots agenda - SNP. The British State began with a bust Scots bank and it is ending with a couple of bust Scots banks. Well done Hen Broon & Darling.
58

Elephant,

Linlithgow 21/11/2008 11:11:13
#57 subrosa
Europe IS listening to France, which is exactly why Brown is trying to engage with the Americans, Saudis & Chinese. The problems are too big to solve within Britain or the EU alone. Like him or not, trust his motives or not, he's doing the right thing, which is a marked improvement on the first year of his Premiership.
59

Andrew Allan,

21/11/2008 11:13:37
#46.,Ugly George. Edinburgh 21/11/2008 09:31:14
‘Please look at the reality. RBS got itself into trouble with its aggressive expaqnsion plans and is now being bailed out with £20bn of taxpayers money so that it can remain in existence.
How you can portray this as unionists trying to destroy it defies all logic and reason.’

Ugly George, if you want to hide a tree where is the best place to do so? The general consensus is within a forest.
I am not saying the actions of the bank are any different to you, what I am saying is the very actions you are talking about over this last year were peculiar with the expected down turn. Debt under the circumstances was always going to be called in more vigorously.
It was like calling tails when you knew the coin to be flipped was a double header.
It was an ideal situation then to destroy the rock solid reputation of one of the world’s largest banking organizations. It could even be said to be an action to reiterate, in symbolic terms, the dubious reasoning behind the instigation of the original act of union.
You asked how I could portray this as unionists trying to destroy. The answer is as soon as the SNP Government got into power, and some would say from the elections which brought them to power, a number of Scots started throwing themselves onto their swords. Remember the officials from football and golf allegedly coming out with racial slurs? These were areas which would affect the good name of Scotland. These people were unionists, so why wouldn’t the head of RBS fall on his sword to, as he might see it, support the continuation of the union. Is it totally out of the question?
60

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/11/2008 11:26:09
Royal Bank of Scotland has only itself to blame. It got into trouble primarily by paying over the odds as part of the consortium that bought and demerged ABN Amro.

Belgium's Fortis took over the Benelux activities of ABN AMRO and we know what has happened to them. On 11 July 2008, the Chief Executive Officer of Fortis, Jean Votron, stepped down after the ABN AMRO deal had reduced Fortis' capital. The total worth of Fortis, in terms of its stock value, was just a third of what it had been before the acquisition, and just under the value that Fortis had paid for the Benelux activities of ABN AMRO.

The Spanish Banco Santander were also involved in the deal. They acquired ABN AMRO's subsidiary in Brazil, Banco Real, and its subsidiary in Italy, Banca Antonveneta. However, unlike RBS and Fortis, it divested part of its' ABN AMRO acquisitions when it sold Banca Antonveneta to Monte dei Paschi di Siena in November 2007.
61

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/11/2008 11:30:17
#67 "You asked how I could portray this as unionists trying to destroy. The answer is as soon as the SNP Government got into power, and some would say from the elections which brought them to power, a number of Scots started throwing themselves onto their swords."

Aye right - RBS deliberately bought ABN AMRO in May 2007 just to spite the SNP.

Welcome to the cloud-cuckoo land of our more demented Nat fantasists.
62

Memyself&I,

21/11/2008 11:40:13
#67 You're a LUNATIC!!!!

Bloomin madness. Give it up. You seriously,..oh nevermind. What's the point............
63

Memyself&I,

21/11/2008 11:43:59
#2 What does 67,000 really mean. Do you even know? What was it the year before? Year before that? How many opened in 2008? Was it more than usual? Did the ones going bust go bust in the area around the earthquake zone? Were thay all trying to cash in on the Olympics and then failed?
67,000 means nothing without more info. Sounds like a big number but maybe just isn't.
64

brownlie,

21/11/2008 11:50:24
Another Saturday night - ad nauseam

Now that you've changed your moniker again and again, would not an acronym based on "Another Rufus Saturday Evening" be more appropriate?
65

1stEdinburgh,

Scotland 21/11/2008 11:53:42
To be fair, RBS has only itself to blame for its downfall. ABN Amro was a bridge too far so to speak, only done to prevent Barclays from getting it and doing them a big favour in the process! If it weren't for that, Barclays would have been holding the begging bowl instead of RBS. Sir Goodwin should have known that RBS was too big for its boots and I'm speaking as a customer and a supporter of all things Scottish.
66

salmondella,

UK 21/11/2008 11:59:11
What is the position of the SNP now that the government ( the UK tax payer) owns 60% the bank? IF (and its a mighty big IF) Scotland becomes independent under the SNP - will the SNP buy the shares back for the Scottish people or insist its "Scotlands money"? The SNP are very very quiet at the moment - is it cos they are stuck for ideas? Come on alex you're rarely stuck for words -what's your view?
67

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 21/11/2008 12:02:17
2# In a land of over 1 BILLION people, I wonder how many SME's, and large corporations, are trading in the Chinese economy, which is still expected in the present world recession, to exceed its recent average annual growth rate of 8 percent?

I would imagine it must be HUNDREDS of thousands.
68

Hmm?,

21/11/2008 12:12:34
I liked this bit - "Overwhelmingly elderly, many former bankers themselves, they rely on the dividends paid out on their shares"

No doubt at all that those holding shares in RBS will have been hit by the shares current low value and the resulting low dividend (or no dividend at all). However, I think it's highly unlikely that anyone is relying on those dividends as their main or sole form of income.

Laying it on a bit thick there I think :)
69

SteveSC,

West Lothian 21/11/2008 12:14:23
Did anybody in the RBS get an enhanced bonus for aquiring ABN Amro? If so, maybe they should pay it back.

I think that most of the current problems in the banking industry are due to paying bonuses on short-term gains. Why do bankers need bonuses anyway? A nurse is expected to empty bed pans for her salary. Workers in the financial sector seem to need "incentives" to do the job they are paid to do.
70

plord,

edinburgh 21/11/2008 12:17:58
For those with a need to know, if the government ends up owning more than 50% of the bank you can ask your questions using freedom of information requests.
Do it here http://www.whatdotheyknow.com and we will all get the answer :)
71

brownlie,

21/11/2008 12:19:37
74 salmond

It may surprise you to know that Scottish tax-payers contribute to UK Taxes.

As you do not seem to be stuck for words, what is your view?

Can you tell us if the UK Government is, in any way, responsible for the horrendous debts the UK are piling up?
72

Brideun,

Culloden 21/11/2008 12:25:46
The first nail in RBS's coffin was the culling of experienced managers who had already lived through the last recession when RBS's share value dropped to around a shilling. Markets bounced back just after Burmah Oil crashed and then RBS soared and recovered within a couple of months. Lessons learned from this experience were lost when the 'Shred' gave the fifty plus grey heads the push. Can't expect a recovery now as civil servants hold the reins, the kiss of death!
73

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/11/2008 12:28:04
74/79
I would imagine that the existing govt shareholding would be split on a pro rata population basis. That appears to be the precedent for these matters.

Alternatively they might be traded off against other assets/liabilities in negotiations.
74

salmondella,

Uk 21/11/2008 12:28:59
#79 Brownie I'm not the Scottish First Minister and I'm not trying to convince the Scottish people that independence is best for Scotland. He is supposed to be a leader -then let him lead. I'm - as you say - just an honest tax payer who wants to know what the SNP will do with my investment in the RBS - have you a problem with that?
75

brownlie,

21/11/2008 12:35:34
82 salmond

No, what you are is typical of the negativity displayed on this site which is detrimental to unionist hopes and aspirations.

Have a look at previous postings and note that we are being seen more and more as anti-SNP with no positive messages to further our own cause.
76

The Strategist,

21/11/2008 12:40:10
The effective ownership of RBS now lies with the UK Treasury. They can decide what to do with it.

What Scotland should do is set up a regional, mutual bank run by "grey heads" but controlled by trustees that represent the entire Scottish people and industry.. (but not the CBI)
77

Fidelio,

Edinburgh 21/11/2008 12:57:49
These idiots should be made to empty their large bank accounts, trust funds and give up any investments they have secured elsewhere as well as giving up a proportion of their old age pensions and pay this all to the state for this disgrace.
78

Fidelio,

Edinburgh 21/11/2008 12:58:42
What is funny though is all these numpties at Gogarburn are now technically Civil Servants!!
Ha ha ha!!!!
79

salmondella,

Uk 21/11/2008 13:00:58
#83 Brownie - Thus, you CAN put me down as being anti-SNP and anti-nationalist.

However, my positive alternative may not be to your taste....Labour to power on a socialist programme!!!!
80

chico y,

21/11/2008 13:04:36
Hey,

I've been reading some of the comments by Rufus titfly and AS night and it's dawned on me what they are about.

I thought they were unionists but I realise now their rabid anti Scottishness and personal attacks on SNP politicians is all about polarising against the union.
And moderate Unionists who do have more valid arguments are turned off, very clever.

Keep up the good work, you must be quite sad though sitting up through the night writing that stuff. Still, it all helps.

Saor Alba a nis.
81

Stirling Sentinel,

Stirling 21/11/2008 13:08:00
I did very nicely out of RBS shares and got out when they were top of the market. Perhaps I was just lucky but I suspect many were greedier than me, stayed in and now have their fingers burnt!! Always get yourself a good stockbroker, that is Rule 1. Rule 2 is to appreciate that shares can go down as well as up.

Happy Christmas all !!
82

brownlie,

21/11/2008 13:18:07
87 salmond

I suspect that the only way you could get a socialist Labour Party in power would be as an independent Scottish Labour Party in an independent Scotland.

Failing that, the UK Labour party, despite any pretensions, have gone too right wing to ever consider socialism again.
83

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 21/11/2008 13:25:22
Sic transit gloria mundi
(Thus passes the glory of the world)

This man was an arrogant and self-satisfied executive and his financial failings finally caught up with him - he had reached his level of incompetence.

#64 AJ Fife

Nick Leeson WAS jailed for fiddling with the funds at Baring's Bank and Ewan McGregor made a fantastic movie about that affair entitled ? ... something or the other.

Anways, it is an intriguing study of greed and conniving and duplicity and final retribution.

It is almost a simulacrum of the life and financial "expertise" of Sir Fred Goodwin. And I hope the underlings who worked for him also get the book thrown at them and serve jail time.

Charles Linskaill

I don't think NOT knowing anything about a newsitem or subject under discussion has prevented many posters from making fools of themselves in these threads.

So don't feel shy in making comments.
84

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/11/2008 13:28:24
#88 Or nationalists masquerdaing as unionists?

To be fair I have seen posts from some people who are supposedly nationalists that are so extreme they looks as if they are actually written by unionist fakeys.

Personally, I would prefer to ignore the more lunatic elements of either political persuasion - they are here to troll and wind-up - just don't bite.
85

Rufus T. Firefly,

21/11/2008 13:33:27
#88 Chico, thanks for taking the time to read my posts.
86

salmondella,

UK 21/11/2008 13:43:08
#90 Brownie - Yes I was right, not to your taste - but now who is being negative? -and what's your "positive" alternative - more of Brown?
87

brownlie,

21/11/2008 13:59:43
94 salmondella

Where do you get the idea that it would not be to my taste to have a Scottish Socialist Labour Party running Scotland?

As for more of Brown, no thanks!
88

fegan,

Newtownards 21/11/2008 14:04:07
When have you ever seen a Knight thoroughly investigated for alleged criminal acts with the exception of Lord Archer who served his time in an extraordinary way
89

Another Saturday Night,

21/11/2008 14:05:28
Chico

How's the ice cream van going?
90

brownlie,

21/11/2008 14:19:55
99 Fegan

Another Saturday Knight should be thoroughly investigated for depositing litter on a public forum.
91

Zimbobimbo,

edinburgh 21/11/2008 14:57:54
Time for for certain "chiefs"to fall on their swords.
92

Andrew Allan,

21/11/2008 15:44:29
#69.,The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),
‘Aye right - RBS deliberately bought ABN AMRO in May 2007 just to spite the SNP.
Welcome to the cloud-cuckoo land of our more demented Nat fantasists.’

Federalist, May 2007 ring any bells, didn’t a certain SNP win an Election. You might say the negotiations had started a number of weeks previously, but the polls already had a SNP victory on the cards. Did I fantasize about these events too?
93

Andrew Allan,

21/11/2008 15:45:10
#70.,Memyself&I.
‘You're a LUNATIC!!!!
Bloomin madness. Give it up. You seriously,..oh nevermind. What's the point............’

Only those who deny the possibility of their own madness are mad. I deny no such thing.
94

,

21/11/2008 17:56:02
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95

,

21/11/2008 18:07:45
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96

,

21/11/2008 18:07:58
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97

brownlie,

21/11/2008 19:45:27
114 sm753

At the risk of being collegiate pedantic I should point out that the SNP won the Scottish election. If Alex had stood alone he could only win one seat.
98

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/11/2008 19:56:17
#115 You are a pedant but that still does not mitigate Andrew Allan's lunatic fantasy.
99

brownlie,

21/11/2008 20:06:13
117 The Federalist

We all need to have at least one fantasy in our lives. Your moniker, for example, will always remain a fantasy.

116 sm753

It's not like you to be so insulting to a fellow poster.
100

PointOf View,

Scotland 21/11/2008 20:10:02
24 Dave

HI Dave,

RuffASS, Numpskul and Saturday NUT are one and the same person who i believe to be Writer/Reporter for this liebour mouth piece rag, MadDOG.

I firmly believe the sole reason this Unionist rag has any interest in sticking up for HBOS, is they themselves hold shares in the HBOS bank. I mean ask yourself,, when has this rag EVER supported anything Scottish recently, their demise is imminent.
101

,

21/11/2008 20:17:46
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102

,

21/11/2008 20:20:11
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103

PointOf View,

21/11/2008 20:22:27
29 The McKellarator

Good post and indeed point. At 6.5 per share i guess Maggie Broon has been subsidising this rag for quite some time, Liebor mouth piecemust prints what the paymaster dictates, JP = treachery and treason.
104

brownlie,

21/11/2008 20:23:31
120 sm753

If the UK has been moving anywhere for a long time it is in a purely backward direction. I, sometimes, despair for our beloved union.

124 Union is Best

I think and fear that the only reason for that deletion is that the Scotsman is moving in a quasi-independence direction.
105

,

21/11/2008 20:26:13
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106

brownlie,

21/11/2008 20:33:59
126 Union is Best

Well, as you know, we've had to import from England - it worked in Glenrothes where we persuaded our fellow unionists to vote for Labour - but I fear we'll have to live with lowered standards for a while. The way things are going, at least two decades.
107

,

21/11/2008 21:00:49
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108

,

21/11/2008 21:27:55
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109

brownlie,

21/11/2008 22:35:37
129 sm753

It's not often you're right and you're wrong again. I think I told you before that you were barking .... up the wrong tree.

However, now that you mention it, I always ignore Union is Best and never address postings to him.

Furthermore, I do not recall bstc ever posting anything even vaguely humorous.
110

bumpkin,

21/11/2008 23:15:18
i dont own a house, i dont own any shares. this is hilarious.
Goodwin went to the casino and put £80 billion on red.
but the ball stopped on black.
111

sarak,

Sydney 21/11/2008 23:26:32
Having briefly read the above it reassures me that I've left a sinking ship. How petty and pathetic it all seems. A better example of poor user generated content I'll be hard pressed to find.
112

brownlie,

21/11/2008 23:37:42
133 sarak
Remind us of the full saying regarding "sinking ships"?

 

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