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15 MSPs forced to pay back cash for wreaths

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Published Date: 30 May 2009
FIFTEEN members of the Scottish Parliament have been shamed into repaying expenses they claimed for Remembrance Day wreaths.
The MSPs – from the SNP, Labour and Liberal Democrats – reclaimed money that was paid to Poppyscotland and the Lady Haig Poppy Factory for the wreaths. Both charities raise funds for veterans.

It came as their actions were last night described as "immoral" and "dishonourable", although it was pointed out by officials that they fell within parliament's rules. MPs have been banned from claiming the cost of Remembrance Day wreaths since 2004.

The row has shifted the expenses focus on to Holyrood, which has been regarded largely as "clean" in comparison with Westminster, where MPs have been under siege over their claims. And last night, the scandal forced another MP to quit, with former Labour minister Elliot Morely announcing he would not seek re-election after claiming £16,800 in taxpayer-funded allowances for interest on a mortgage already paid off.

Mark Wallace, from the Taxpayers' Alliance, said he was astounded MSPs would even consider claiming back money given to a veterans' charity. "It is disgraceful that so many MSPs have claimed Remembrance Day wreaths on expenses and that it is allowed under Scottish Parliament rules," he said.

"No honourable human being would even think it as morally acceptable to do so." He demanded that Holyrood change its rules to stop such claims.

Lothians Tory MSP Gavin Brown said: "Remembrance Day wreaths are a tribute to people who put their lives on the line and the idea of claiming back the cost does not sit easily with that. I think a rule change would be appropriate."

The expenses emerged in the claims made for October to December last year, which were published online this week. While the Scottish Parliament describes itself as being transparent, the wreaths were hidden under "running costs".

When the claims first came to light yesterday, there was reluctance among some MSPs to return the money.

Lothians SNP MSP Angela Constance, who claimed £17.80, immediately offered to return the cash, but her colleagues were not as quick to respond. The initial SNP response said: "Members lay wreaths in their official capacity on behalf of the Scottish Parliament. As the parliament supports Poppyscotland, the cost can be met from parliament resources, and it is for each elected member to determine if they wish to reclaim the cost."

But within an hour, the party leadership had intervened and all its MSPs were told to pay the money to the charities, Poppyscotland and Lady Haig Poppy Factory, which sold the wreaths. The two charities are the only ones that MSPs are allowed to claim back money for.

A spokeswoman said: "SNP MSPs will either be reimbursing the money or making donations equal to the cost of the wreaths to Poppyscotland."

The SNP MSPs who claimed were Ms Constance, Alasdair Allan (£21.30), Roseanna Cunningham (£63.90), Michael Matheson (£63.90), Stuart McMillan (£42.60), Gil Paterson (£17.80) and John Wilson (£35.60).

Labour MSPs decided to pay their money back to the parliament, but not before a spokesman insisted they had been right to reclaim the money as representatives of the parliament. Helen Eadie claimed the most, at £170.42, to cover wreaths for different villages in her Dunfermline East constituency. Rhona Brankin claimed £42.60, Trish Godman £113.22 and Cathy Jamieson £42.60.

A party spokesman said: "MSPs lay wreaths on behalf of the Scottish Parliament. The money for the wreaths goes to Poppyscotland that funds care for veterans. Some MSPs have many remembrance ceremonies in their constituency and it has been traditional for the local parliamentarian to send a wreath for them.

"These funds have been claimed legitimately, but Labour members have decided to pay the money back to avoid any embarrassment to Poppyscotland."

Ms Brankin said: "While I have acted in accordance with Scottish Parliament rules, the last thing I would want to do is cause offence to the Scottish Poppy Appeal, the Royal British Legion or my constituents."

The Lib Dems also promised to repay money claimed by Robert Brown (£20.30), former leadership contender Ross Finnie (£118.13), Jamie Stone (£42) and Jim Tolson (£63.90). A spokesman said: "The MSPs in question attended these important ceremonies in their official capacities but will, nonetheless, repay the amount claimed."

No Conservative or Green MSPs claimed back money for wreaths. However, shadow Scottish secretary David Mundell had been criticised for putting in claims for wreaths before the Westminster ban. Another Conservative, former shadow defence secretary James Gray, also came under fire after he tried to lodge a claim and complained he was "£60 out of pocket" after buying three wreaths to lay at war memorials in his constituency.

The wreaths at the centre of the scandal came mostly from the Lady Haig Poppy Factory, named after the wife of Earl Haig, the commander-in-chief of British forces during the First World War.

The factory makes special wreaths for MSPs with a purple centre to mark them out as being from the Scottish Parliament.

Former army officer Stuart Crawford, who served as a lieutenant-colonel in the Royal Tank Regiment, was also highly critical of the claims, although he said he could see why MSPs might believe they could claim the money back.

He said: "Although MSPs are not the highest-paid people in the land, they get a healthy salary – at least twice the average household income – and a wreath once a year on Remembrance Day should not be beyond their means."

Morely to step down after 'traumatic' mortgage claim row

FORMER Labour minister Elliot Morley is to quit as an MP, after claiming £16,800 in taxpayer-funded allowances for interest on a mortgage he had paid off.

He announced his decision not to fight his Scunthorpe seat at the next general election after a meeting with party activists in his constituency last night.

The move came as Tory leader David Cameron said any MPs who committed a crime by claiming taxpayer-funded cash for non-existent mortgages should "face the full force of the law".

Mr Cameron said Scotland Yard, which is considering whether to launch criminal inquiries into potentially fraudulent claims, should examine them "without fear of favour".

He added: "If people have broken the law in claiming expenses, like mortgage payments for mortgages that don't exist, should they be subject to the full force of the law? Yes of course they should."

Announcing his decision to stand down last night, Mr Morely said: "It is with regret that I have informed the general committee of the Scunthorpe Constituency Labour Party and the party general secretary that I do not wish to contest this seat at the next election.

"The last two weeks have been traumatic for me and I have to think of my family and my health, both of which have suffered."

The former environment minister is suspended from the Parliamentary Labour Party pending a sleaze watchdog investigation and a possible police inquiry.

Earlier yesterday, another MP embroiled in the scandal, veteran Conservative Bill Cash – who rented a flat from his daughter using taxpayers' funds – said he would repay the £15,000 if there had been a "transgression", but asked for time for his claims to be scrutinised.

However, his hopes of drawing a line under the affair were scuppered by Mr Cameron, who said the MP faced "serious questions" and needed to co-operate with inquiries.

Mr Cash, a Staffordshire MP, designated a flat owned by his daughter Laetitia, an aspiring Tory MP, as his second home for expenses in 2004 and 2005 – though he owned a home closer to Westminster.

Meanwhile, other Scots MPs also had their expenses scrutinised yesterday.

David Mundell, the only Tory MP in Scotland, paid back £75 for a food and drinks bill for staff. The Shadow Scottish secretary said he had audited his own expemses and decided to repay the funds before being asked.

Brian Donohoe, the Labour MP for Central Ayrshire, was allowed to claim £2,575 for a three-piece suite for his second home although it was £75 over the limit.

Tom Harris, the Labour MP for Glasgow Cathcart, had his claims of £90 for a cot and £50 for a steriliser rejected.

The revelations came as Commons leader Harriet Harman warned that Labour MPs who have done wrong "have got to pay the price for that".

However, Lord Mandelson, the Business Secretary, condemned the "hasty" judgement of MPs.

The MPs who have announced they are standing down will not do so until the general election, which could be a year away.

This is because anyone who quits parliament mid-term would get much less than a maximum £129,532, depending on length of service.

Nick Clegg, the Liberal Democrat leader, yesterday called for end to the "golden goodbyes".

"I can see no reason why an MP who is sacked or decides to stand down should be rewarded with a big, tax-free, lump sum payment," he said.

• Pensions minister Rosie Winterton claimed £4,690 for soundproofing a bedroom wall and redecoration of the bedroom, bathroom, living room, kitchen and staircase of her London home in February 2007, it emerged last night


Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 29 May 2009 11:55 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Politicians' expenses
 
1

,

29/05/2009 23:45:05
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2

,

30/05/2009 00:14:56
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3

Tris,

30/05/2009 00:25:55
Dr Death... how exactly can you try to make some sort of party political capital out of this?

All the parties have done it. It's a dubious question as to who should pay. They lay the wreaths on behalf of parliament (they are specially designed with purple centres so that they are recognised as being from the parliament). They are not from the individual MSPs.

Some of the MSPs have multiple wreaths to buy for a large constituency with many local war memorials.
I have no problem with any MSP of any party claiming for that. I wonder who pays for the royal families' wreathes.

What I would find disgusting would be if a MSP (of any party) felt that it was appropriate to spend Remembrace Day with some tart rather behind his wife's back than at a service of remembrance, lie about it and then get found out because the dirty wee man had taken photographs.

That really would be beneath contempt and deserving of condemnation. Of course, I'm sure none of them has ever done that!
4

Fifi la Bonbon,

30/05/2009 00:30:50
I don't see what the problem is.

A ritual has emerged of politicians putting on their funeral coats and laying a wreath in front of the cameras on remembrance day. The MSPs and MPs do it because "it's expected" - people would pass remarks if they didn't.

But none of the rest of us do it, so it's really just a business expense, part of the ritual. The poppy people make up special wreaths for the purpose and no doubt charge a healthy mark-up.

I think it is perfectly fine for the parliamentary authorities to pay for these wreaths and I don't think MSPs should have to bear the cost themselves.
5

Am Fògarrach,

30/05/2009 00:37:20
#3 Tris& #4 Fifi -

I agree with you.

You probably already know that 'Doctor Death' is 'Rufus T Firefly' also known as The 'Creature from the Black Latrine'.
6

,

30/05/2009 00:38:03
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7

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

30/05/2009 00:46:11
I think any MSP who bought a poppy for their buttonhole and put it on our tab, would suffer a serious and well deserved loss of brownie points.

Helen Eadie may have appeared to be pushing the boat out a bit at £170 but she had several war memorials to cover.

How many of us buy wreaths to place at war memorials?

Damn few I would think...I'm sure most of us would prefer this to be funded from the public purse, than left undone.
8

Fifi la Bonbon,

30/05/2009 00:49:18
More generally, I think that MPs and MSPs should think twice before beng bullied by party leaders and the press to pay back expenses legitimately claimed.

There seems to be a few who have obtained money by deception and they should certainly face the high jump, but to see this nonsense about toblerones in the minibar claimed for by Angus Macinnes and the rest of it is just nonsense. Take the MP in the story above, Rosie Winterton, who got recompensed for soundproofing and redecorating her London flat. That sounds entirely legitimate. It's a completely different league from what Bill Cash is supposed to have done.

It's time some MPs showed a bit of gumption and told the Telegraph and the party bosses to get stuffed. Look at Mark Lazarowicz -- he started to pay back money claimed for and paid entirely legitimately, because he was worried because it got in the paper. People like him need to show some backbone for a change.

They could start by refusing to pay back wreath money, but they won't, and it shows how far the bullying culture has affected them that MSPs from both the SNP and Labour caved in after only an hour.

And MPs really need to put two fingers up to that awful, canting prig Nick Clegg, who is leading a bidding war to try and show how clean he and his party is - except they're just the same as all the rest.
9

CRAGman,

30/05/2009 00:56:15
I have no problem with MSPs (or MPs) claiming for wreaths laid in their constituency as part of their Parliamentary duties.

Let's concentrate on the real abuses of expenses and not be drawn into a frenzied witch-hunt.
10

Fifi la Bonbon,

30/05/2009 00:59:32
The problem is that the thirteen MSPs allowed themselves to be forced to pay for something they were perfectly entitled to.

By the way - the Tax Payers' Alliance rears its filthy head again in this story. Reporters should do their own jobs and not contract their work out to that Tory Party front.
11

Fifi la Bonbon,

30/05/2009 01:01:46
"....Mark Wallace, from the Taxpayers' Alliance, said he was astounded MSPs would even consider claiming back money given to a veterans' charity. "It is disgraceful that so many MSPs have claimed Remembrance Day wreaths on expenses and that it is allowed under Scottish Parliament rules," he said. "No honourable human being would even think it as morally acceptable to do so."


Well nearly all the commenters here think it is morally acceptable to do so. The Tax Payers Alliance must be awfully disappointed in us.
12

,

30/05/2009 01:06:49
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13

Huntly loon,

30/05/2009 01:08:29
This topic has appeared on two other threads. I would have thought that an MP or MSP is laying a wreath in their official capacity and ought to have their wreath paid by all of us from the public purse.

We are getting to the point now that MSPs and MPs are too scared even to seek reimbursement for proper expenses. Perhaps the Scotsman is trying to copy the Telegraph but really this is scraping the barrel. What our MPs and MSPs give as donations for their personal poppies is between them and their conscience. But public wreaths are not for them to pay for.

In future they should decline to attend these ceremonies in a public capacity and pay only their personal respects. I would not blame them. Local authorities (Aberdeenshire anyway) provide wreaths at the public expense for laying on the many war memorials in their area. They are laid on behalf of us all, or is the wreath layer now expected to pick up the tab.
14

Colin B,

Bearsden 30/05/2009 01:11:52
Scum insulting heroes- that Cunningham, Brankin, Jamieson, Eadie, Godman were among those does not surprise me given their dirty, filthy personal standards
15

FerryPort,

30/05/2009 01:15:15
This rag is so shoite

I agree with fifi et al. It's on behalf of being in office.

However, fifi, I do think Clegg's got a point.

The existing MPs to stand down at the next election, due to this scandal, will cost us an arm and a leg in redundancy payments.

It's not just taking money, these folk are still in charge important decisions on our behalf for another year.

16

Iainbroch,

30/05/2009 01:28:48
Is Maddox after a knighthood for services to ????????
17

Fifi la Bonbon,

30/05/2009 01:33:28
#17 - Clegg doesn't really believe in what he's saying any more than Cameron does. They're all just striking sanctimonious poses in the hope that people like you will think "he's got a point".

18

Nevsky;,

Moscow 30/05/2009 01:36:22
Poor Rufus*

Poor Rufus he must be wiping a tear from his eye at the demise of Gordon...the worst poll in history and leading to a rise of the neo-fascists in Rufus' beloved England...cue Jerusalem:


'Labour’s overall position has slid to 21 per cent, its lowest in polling history. When asked how they would vote in next week’s European election, those polled have put Labour in third place behind UKIP and the Tories, for the first time.

All the minority parties, including the Greens and the British National Party, have made striking advances in the past three weeks as the row over MPs’ allowances has engulfed all the main parties.'
19

tartangladbach,

edinburgh 30/05/2009 01:39:03
19 iainbroch? maddox is just typical sad middle management type, easy to manipulate & does what he's told and try's to win favour with his peers by writting stories they would be pleased to see. the unionist's do not belive in democracy or people power (they fear the people)unionism is all about the "i'm all right jack" birgade. a union built on the backs of armed robbery & corruption.
20

Iainbroch,

30/05/2009 01:39:34
re20

Well it does lokk rather like Cleggie is becoming an irrelevancy if the latest polls are anything to go by? He is getting desperate to catch whatever headlines he can!
21

Huntly loon,

30/05/2009 01:40:25
No conservative or green claimed back the money for wreaths, but I dont think there are many constituency MSPs among them who would be expected to attend a remembrance day ceremony in the capacity of constituency MSP. MSPs are now basically being forced to pay to charity. I thought a donation to charity was a personal matter. This is really becoming a witchhunt now.
22

Nevsky;,

Moscow 30/05/2009 01:40:56
Rufus*

Hope you like this link....catroonists just get it bank on sometimes:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/cartoon/

I'm from a wee toon in Scotland...Rufus surely not the British taking the pi** out of Scotland and Brown?
23

frank mcbride,

lusitania 30/05/2009 01:45:07
Is it true the Mrs Elizabeth Saxe-Coburg-Gotha was asked to pay for her Remembrance wreath, as well?
24

frank mcbride,

lusitania 30/05/2009 01:50:01
#1, Rumpus-Bubbles/David Maddox.

Who paid for the Remembrance wreath, laid at the Cenotaph by Mrs. Elizabeth Saxe Coburg-Gotha Windsor Mountbatten?
25

Castaway™ ,

30/05/2009 02:06:31
TOP Tory MP James Gray is exposed today as a greedy skinflint after claiming for Remembrance Day WREATHS on expenses.
Astonishingly when this perk was finally stopped he had the nerve to COMPLAIN to the Leader of the House.
Unabashed, the MP said: "It's necessary for me to attend three ceremonies and I have therefore to buy three wreaths at £20 each, so I am out of pocket to the tune of £60.

Last night-as another top Tory, Shadow Scottish Secretary David Mundell, admitted claiming for a Remembrance wreath-Gray, 54, was unapologetic. But he said: "I now do four Remembrance Sunday wreaths for which I pay £30 each. News of the World - 10/05/2009
26

Huntly loon,

30/05/2009 02:47:14
Castaway. It is nice to know that you donated £60 to the Earl Haig fund last year.

No? You only bought a poppy an put a £1 coin in the tin.

Well stop posturing your false indignation.
27

Castaway™ ,

30/05/2009 02:50:08
Labour MPs who remembered to claim for Remembrance day wreaths
Eddie Balls MP Labour - Tried to claim for two poppy wreaths used for Remembrance service. Claim was rejected.
Brian Gibbons MP Labour -claimed for a Royal British Legion wreath that he presumably laid at a remembrance service.
Tom Levitt MP Labour - Tried to charge taxpayers for a £16.50 Remembrance Day poppy wreath that he laid during the official commemoration.
28

Iainbroch,

30/05/2009 02:53:32
re31

Thanks to the illegal wars conducted by the Labour Party there is unfortunatly a greater need for the Earl Haig fund than ever.

It does beg the question why as a society we have to fund such good causes through public giving and not through goverment spending. I guess they would rather spend our taxes on killing and maiming instead?
29

Castaway™ ,

30/05/2009 02:59:27
#31 Huntly loon- I am ex British Army/Royal British Legion so I do remember Remembrance Day. I also had a great friend killed in Northern Ireland.
P.S.As an OAP the £60 mentioned means more to me but the poppy I always wear.
30

im brian and so is my wife,

edinburgh 30/05/2009 04:04:41
when the late donald stewart snp mp,was banned from laying a wreath,at the cenotaph,by that evil bitch thatcher,the ironic thing was he served in the second world war ,she didnt,but no doubt her family profited by it
31

jockstrap,

Cyprus 30/05/2009 05:09:03
The MSP's are laying the wreaths on behalf of the taxpayers so should be reimbursed.How many of the taxpayers Alliance bought wreaths to lay I wonder.It would be different if they were claiming for buttonholes.
32

old soldier,

Muir-of-Ord 30/05/2009 05:59:26
At least these MSP's are represent at the Remembrance Day parades or the wreaths are laid on there behalf there are parades here in the Highlands where we have no representing the Police Force nor other public services which I think is an absolute disgrace
33

gus1940,

Edinburgh 30/05/2009 06:26:45
Claiming for wreaths is a perfectly legitimate expense as it is part of any politician's duties to lay wreaths on A|mistice Day.

Can the idiots masquerading as journalists at The Scotsman not see this.

Does anybody imagine that the wreaths laid at The Cenotaph on Remembrance Sunday by Brown, Cameron, Clegg et al are paid for from out of their own pockets.

Yet another storm in a teacup being hyped up by The Scotsman.
34

donald,

glasgow 30/05/2009 07:02:47
I'll gladly pay for a wreath for the North GB Labour Party.
35

W Smith,

Middle East 30/05/2009 07:10:04
Is this the same SNP that gave 400,000 quid of the TAXPAYERS money to the Scottish Islamic Foundation??

The same SNP that gave six millioin quid of TAXPAYERS money to gay rights groups?

Is it the same 'patriotic' SNP that grudges 20 quid of their OWN MONEY to remember the war dead.

I'LL REMEMBER THAT.
36

Linda,

Edinburgh 30/05/2009 07:14:09
Wreaths are purchased as part of MSPs official duties not for their private benefit.
Again another non story from Scotsman trying to attack SNP while ignoring the real scandals by Edinburgh and Lothian MPs Darling, Devine, Connerty and Griffiths who all resign before Kenny MacAskill.
37

Phil C,

30/05/2009 07:20:03
The Scotsman never fail to amaze with their razor-sharp reporting of the big stories! Scotland must be a laughing stock to those outwith our shores who read the daily dose of petty stories, aimed at belittling our country and those who seek to return our birth rights.
38

W Smith,

Middle East 30/05/2009 07:20:48
BTW
The SNP have to go.

They are a group of anti-British subversives at leadership level.

No qualms about hanging out with those who hate the West and are more interested in every form of rebellion and mischief, from Sandra White to Mike Weir.

At least the SNP's Gordon Wilson knew certain types had infiltrated his party and were seeking to go far beyond an amicable separation with England.

39

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/05/2009 07:27:15
''They are a group of anti-British subversives''

And ?

40

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/05/2009 07:28:00
''interested in every form of rebellion''

Your point is caller ?
41

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/05/2009 07:29:03
''an amicable separation with England.''

Well - you finally seem to have got it.

42

mike3,

30/05/2009 07:32:57
Charity on expenses.
43

boudica,

Glasgow 30/05/2009 07:36:34
This article has done a great service to Scotland it has proved that although The Wee Fat Controler who also holds the "Title of the Best Paid Skivver" did a quick uturn on his catchphrase " The Butchers Apron" because of the offence it caused the majority of Scottish People ..but their Grass and Roots supporters have no shame in expressing that they have no respect for the Men and Women of the Armed Forces ...I am sure that Arthur "Quisling" Donaldson would be so proud of you lot ...it is a true saying ..Give em enough rope and they will hang themselves ....
44

James,

Dundee 30/05/2009 07:48:59
#51 Boudica, I'm sure you wear a Union Jack apron, along with your marigolds and fluffy slippers.



45

boudica,

Glasgow 30/05/2009 08:07:45
James ....Fluffy Slippers Arghhhhhhhhhhh....Not into marigolds either smell too much like P...ss ..But I hear Wee Eck luvs em as he is always taking the p..ss..I am a Freesia girl myself ....
46

boudica,

Glasgow 30/05/2009 08:13:22
53 ..My brother in law was in the Engineersalso His oldest Son and his wife are both serving officers both have served in Iraq and his wife is soon to head for Afghanistan .2 of My Sons were in the Argylls and they have no respect for the SNP or their cause especially Arthur " Quisling" Donaldsons WW11 plans for Scotland
47

boudica,

Glasgow 30/05/2009 08:19:37
Fifi thinks it is totally legimate to claim a Toblerone and also for a Multi Millionare to claim Soundproofing among other things from the tax payer I am sure it will also think it legitimate for The Wee fat Controller to Claim salary for doing nothing and over a Grand for sheets for his Big Bed as well as claiming Cash for Grub during the summer recess of Parli ...as it claims all this is okay ..maybe she is also one of the claimants or their wifes ..does it keep ducks also ....
48

boudica,

Glasgow 30/05/2009 08:25:36
It shows you how out of touch the SNP Leadership and its supporters are ..everyone else in the UK is disgusted about it but The SNP ..thinks it is okay ...They follow their leader blindly and accuse anyone that prefers the Union of being stupid or treacgherous to Scotland but support their Politicians rights to make stupid claims from the Taxpayer a bit of an oximoron ...just like their mythical policies no doubt ..
49

Auld-Yin,

Musselburgh 30/05/2009 08:25:40
Where a MSP or any other person attending as a representative should not have to pay for wreaths out of their own pocket. These wreaths are being laid as part of the remembrance services held all over the country and are laid on our behalf. I am quite sure that the RBL wreaths are not paid for by the inidividual laying it on behalf of the local RBL (although some might be) but are paid for by the local branch of the RBL.

MSPs, MPs, Councillors et al are there representing me, and you, and therefore the wreaths should be paid for from public funds. If the wreath is laid on behalf of any political party then that party should pay.

This is taking the expenses fiasco too far and the focus should be on real fiddling of public monies.
50

C U Jimmy,

Mauchline 30/05/2009 08:27:11
Standing down, why not just say resign; or is that to blunt for the elite?
51

,

30/05/2009 08:35:46
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52

radge dug,

30/05/2009 08:46:37
Why do the media just blindly take press releases from the 'Tax Payers Alliance'? As far as i can see, it's only an alliance of jumped up Tory libertarians and English nationalists.
53

John S,

The Pans 30/05/2009 08:50:57
#61 Auld-Yin - I agree
54

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2009 08:52:16
For the last few weeks all we've got from the nats on here is self-righteous and sanctimonious girning about how corrupt England is and how clean and decent Scotland is. Of course in their bewilderment they actually believe the SNP IS Scotland so when that shower of chancers are exposed as being every bit as greedy as their English (ha!) counterparts they go nuclear (or in their case nuclear in a wind-powered kind of way).
It would make you think that they are nothing but a bunch of cynical opportunists.
55

Mikey,

30/05/2009 08:54:13
#65, Baggy, you can be sure that the only "Middle East" that Smith comes from is Falkirk! In fact, he reminds me of that Wilson chap from Falkirk. The Tory/BNP supporter who was/is so anti Scottish it must have to hurt him to live here!

Hmmm, now that I think about it, they are both very similar. Could I have outed Smith the fascist?
56

Mikey,

30/05/2009 08:56:27
#69. Grahamski, since the SNP are the only party that cares two hoots about Scotland, you can only be right in your claim that the SNP IS Scotland!

Now, quickly phone London and find out your retort!
57

weeberti,

lemo land 30/05/2009 08:58:10
63* you make me feel sick. if what your saying is true what is the point in having a british army, navy etc as it is tiny compared to America, China, Russia etc your reasoning dose not stack up. oh and my uncle fought in the Falklands war, 2nd battalion Scots guards and he also thinks you are full off sh-T.
58

Soosider,

Glasgow 30/05/2009 09:01:58
This is basically a non story, the obvious give away is when they quote the so called "Taxpayers Alliance", this is with out doubt a very clear indication of lazy journalism.
The actual story is of all MSPs being given clear guidance that it is appropriate to claim for a wreath to lay at a war memorial. Seems perfectly reasonable to me and is in no way indicative of any MSP lining their pockets. It can not be linked to the outrageous behaviour of our MPs where there is clear evidence of massive, consistent and at times fraudulent claims being made for 10s of thousands of pounds.
59

TWC,

exLabour 30/05/2009 09:03:55
Who cares about £20 for a wreath what about £6000 for a cleaner. The whole press agenda is changing guys, trying to divert our attention from the lack of action from Brown over the Labour fiddles.
Every weekend they abscond from Westminster in one car and book a journey each, to their homes where they have sofas bought for their other homes.

Do not take your eye off the Ball the Sleaze is not over, well done the Telegraph.
60

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2009 09:06:27
76
Hey, thanks for that....
61

TWC,

exLabour 30/05/2009 09:07:52
How about getting sofas delivered to Scotland for a house in Londodn?
That's a real story but not to the pro Labour.
62

Mèths,

30/05/2009 09:11:13
Seems pointless all these posts. They were all wrong - end of.
63

Mèths,

30/05/2009 09:12:31
oops - I didn't mean the posts were wrong. I meant claiming for wreaths.
64

Lanne,

Edinburgh 30/05/2009 09:18:22
I agree with all the comments that it is within the expected rights of the MSP's to claim back the expenses for the wreaths. Although many of the claims are a scam and some actually border on criminal this process of the constituency's having wreath placed at them is part and parcel of what is expected of the job... not personally from that individual. The rest of us by poppies for our lapels, why should this not be a legit expense.
65

Jimmy Le Pie,

30/05/2009 09:21:54
#78 Joe,

What a stupid posting.

If you've nothing intelligent to say, say nothing!!


VOTE SNP
66

TWC,

exLabour 30/05/2009 09:23:25
82 Maid of Kent,

EH??
67

Fitba Krazy,

30/05/2009 09:28:41
I think being in the Army as in WW1 and WW2 was different from what it is now.

Before and during WW1 and WW2 people were forced to join or at least forcibly persuaded and they were supposedly defending their country, for what it's worth, and, more importantly, their families, neighbours and countryfolk.
Although there are claims that these wars were financed behind the scenes by unscrupulous types, the soldiers really didn't have much choice.

Nowadays, after WW1 and WW2 which were supposed to be the end of wars, you have to say if nobody joined the Army etc. there would be no wars. So why do they join the Army now? Are they simply Bams, or are they working on behalf of Bams?? or both???

This applies worldwide of course. Too many crazy bams.

Of course many dissillusioned young people possibly join because there are no real jobs for them.

Isn't that a damning indictment of what "society" has become especially when you consider what the real heroes of WW1 and WW2 went through.

Why are the Bams still in control????
68

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2009 09:38:25
84
Aye, very good, but a modern democracy needs a modern and well-equipped army to defend itself. If we value our freedoms we need to ensure that we have a professional and dedicated armed service.
69

Huntly loon,

30/05/2009 09:40:26
Perhaps someone would enlighten me as to who pays for the wreaths laid at the Cenotaph in London, which is regarded as a public duty, similar to that expected of MPs and MSPs. Brown's, Cameron's, Clegg's wreaths - do they pay for those themselves. The fancy wreath the Foreign Secretary lays does he buy that one from his own pocket. The Royal Wreaths? Are all these wreaths provided as part of the official ceremonies? The Queen lays a wreath on behalf of the whole nation. Does she pick up the tab or does she turn up and find one has been provided for her? The other royals I assume pay for theirs out of their civil list provisions. This whole wreath saga is becoming totally bizarre.
70

TWC,

exLabour 30/05/2009 09:41:36
85 Grahamski,
Well the sooner we get a modern well equipped army the better, cause they ain't well equipped just now.

We should stop the Trident replacement and equip them properly;.
71

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2009 09:44:59
86
Aye, it is quite bizarre. You need to ask yourself who started this witch hunt in the first place and why. The nats were delighted to fan the flames of this when they thought they might get a political advantage out of it. Now that the fire is running out of control and their MPs and MSPs are getting caught up in it the hypocritical chancers are bleating about how unfair it all is.
72

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2009 09:46:31
87
TWC
For somebody who claims to have no political axe to grind you can't seem to let any opportunity go by without a snide comment about Labour. Can't think why....
73

Fitba Krazy,

30/05/2009 09:50:23
You have to wonder why is there to be a crazy enormously expensive Trident replacement when the penny pinching goes on when it comes to real people?

Who is behind this charade, and yes the whole wreath saga is bizarre, perhaps it's just part of the game they are playing with peoples lives. Who makes the weapons and why? Do they sell them to all and sundry?

Is there ever going to be peace on Earth??

Or are we doomed to endless wars?? That's how it looks anyway.
74

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2009 09:53:43
90
Hey, I hadn't thought of that! Wars are bad, let's ban them. Genius.
75

Duncan in Edinburgh,

30/05/2009 09:54:01
#86 My thoughts precisely.
76

mr broon,

Edinburgh 30/05/2009 09:55:03
The author is being less than disingenuous?

135 Westminster MPS from ALL the political parties made similar claims for wreaths!(Source: Daily Telegraph)

According to 4 previous articles in the Daily Telegraph about MPs expenses, not only did many Labour and Lib-Dem MPs apply for refunds for wreaths but also many Tory MPs, including David Mundell and James Gray, both of whom also made REPEATED expenses claims for the cost of Remembrance Day wreaths, irrespective of whether they were paid or not. "Most MPs made these claims because of the number of ceremonies they were
attending, and the number of wreaths laid." (Daily Telegraph)

The Parliamentary Fees Office turned down the vast majority of these claims.. However some MPs, along with Tory MP Gray, managed to wangle £60.

Don't take my word for it.
Read it in the Daily Telegraph.

77

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2009 09:55:31
Anyway, more greasy SNP mitts caught in the till and guess what? Yep, those crazy guys over at SNP HQ think they can explain away their sleaze by saying: "Please Miss, look what Labour are doing....."
That'll work...........
78

Ewan M,

30/05/2009 10:01:07
82 - my point exactly Jimmy, when are YOU going to stop posting?
79

Fitba Krazy,

30/05/2009 10:04:50
91 Grahamski, Maybe if we banned politicians it would be a start. Especially the ones on the take and those with vested interests at odds with the rights and aspirations of the people.

We should start by immediately expelling the real tea-leaves and charging them with the offences they have committed. Warmongers should be exposed and ridiculed, don't you think. Especially the ones who want wars and then go and lay wreaths. I mean it's unlikely that there would be no victims in any war, so I would say their behaviour is also bizarre, don't you think. Are they not hypocrites, Grahamski??

What would you do with them? Do you think it's right if they are let off?

80

TWC,

exLabour 30/05/2009 10:08:24
89 Grahamski,Never said I didn't have a political axe to gring.
I detest Nu Labour, I cannot understand why any Scot would vote for a Party which has no Policies for Scotland and appears to do everything it can to damage Scotland. I've told you this before and I always finish by asking you what are Labours policies for Scotland?/??
81

TWC,

exLabour 30/05/2009 10:09:41
Grahamski, further the Sleaze of Labour MPs is sickening and Brown continues to Dither. The man is a buffoon.
82

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2009 10:11:15
97
Here's waht I think. One of the prime repsonsibilities of our politicians is to ensure our country is safe. The responsibility for guarding our freedoms is an onerous one and one that requires strength and fortitude.
The easiest thing in the world is to snipe from the sidelines and refuse to take resposnsibility and the kind of decisions that aren't popular politically but are crucial for our country's security.
By all means carry on with your infantile and shallow sneering. Just be aware that the people you sneer at are the same people who are prepared to give their lives for your freedom to sneer.
83

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2009 10:12:50
TWC
All MPs who have put in inflated claims should stand down at teh next election. Do you agree?
84

jdships,

Edinburgh 30/05/2009 10:16:10
Putting aside the rights and wrongs of this "expenses claim" the interesting point is the indignation from SNP supporterd that anyone should even hint at wrongdoing in that party.
Wow !
This seems to have been instilled in them by the "wee fat controller" who cannot possibly be wrong - can he ?
85

Barontorc,

East of Java 30/05/2009 10:17:46
Forget the tiny sums of money involved for wreaths and poppies on official duty - the real tragedy is that these charities need to raise money to look after our war wounded and to cope with the post-traumatic cases of our returning service men and women. Why?

Its also a curious thing to see prevention of cruelty to children and animals, keeping lifeboats afloat, enabling cancer research, etc, etc having to depend on handouts to keep in existence. Can anyone explain why in this "Great" Britain?
86

Fitba Krazy,

30/05/2009 10:18:07
!00, Who is sneering Grahamski? Not I. I am being serious.

I would imagine those sneering are the lying, cheating, greedy, self important warmongers who send OTHERS to fight on the behalf of themselves. Don't you agree Grahamski? Are they heroes? Sending young people into horrendous situations for the benefit of, well, certainly not the young people who are being sent to fight with poor equipment and terribly poor wages for doing so. Do you support the warmonger politician who are behind this Grahamski?
87

TWC,

exLabour 30/05/2009 10:20:26
101 Grahamski
They should go now, how can they set laws when they have no respect for our Laws, how can they negotiate with other countries when they have no respect at home?

BTW I was asking what Labour policies for Scotland were and explaining why I detested them so much because they appear to be anti Scottish.
88

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2009 10:20:41
103
Not so much a party more a cult.
Consider:
secret histories and conspiracies of silence.
a media conspiracy to stop the SNP.
their political opponents are all either traitors or corrupt.
Their goal is just round the corner, there's a "one more push and we're there" menatality.
These are all common features of cults whether they be religious, political or a mixture of both. As you can see your average cybernat fits the description every bit as well as your average moonie....
89

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 10:22:29
17
FerryPort

"The existing MPs to stand down at the next election, due to this scandal, will cost us an arm and a leg in redundancy payments."

But less than the cost of a by-election.
90

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2009 10:22:51
105
Oh make no mistake, you ARE sneering. When you grow up you will find that your infantile tantrums give way to a more reasoned approach to politics.
91

TWC,

exLabour 30/05/2009 10:24:12
103 jdships

You are a troll who poisons the posts rather than make a serious point. Labour MPs are a disgrace and the minor sins of the Nats and Libdems can't change that.
This was once the party of the people and the Nats have stolen ALL theirpolicies.
Labour have NO Policies for Scotland and have all these Career politicians who never held a real job so they rip us ofrf.
92

Tom McLaughlan,

Benbecula 30/05/2009 10:24:27
For our tomorrow they gave their today....these so-called honourable people couldn't even give for a wreath. Thanks to their "generosity", the SNP are now 2 members less, my wife and I.
93

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 30/05/2009 10:24:45
I shall only post once today Hampden beckons!!
The only news story today is the article and opinion poll in Times.
This and anything else is smoke and mirrors.

Labour on 16% !!! other points of note rise in Nationalist Vote.

so Toblerones ,wreaths etc etc are only of interest to Grahamski and all the other Labour employees and journalists.
16% !!! they are finished ,would suit you lot better to dust down your CVs to quote that lovely song
"The partys' over!" LITERALLY
94

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 10:26:05
103
jdships

"...the interesting point is the indignation from SNP supporterd that anyone should even hint at wrongdoing in that party."

Among normal human beings false accusations are generally regarded as a totally legitimate cause for indignation.
95

Fitba Krazy,

30/05/2009 10:30:21
109 Grahamski, Is a more reasoned approach to politics the defence of greed, hypocrisy and warmongering? Like your "reasoned" approach, I suppose?

96

Nevsky;,

Moscow 30/05/2009 10:30:30
111 Tom McLaughlin*

That's not a Benbecula name and you are not an SNP member...you are a FAKE...and a very stupid one.

97

TWC,

exLabour 30/05/2009 10:32:43
111 Tom McLaughlan,
I fear you are the exception, are you joining the Labour party?

This article is about sleaze and it would appear that the Nats are the cleanest so I fail to get the reason for your post.

BTW can your wife not speak for herself?
98

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 10:33:32
111
Tom McLaughlan

"For our tomorrow they gave their today....these so-called honourable people couldn't even give for a wreath. Thanks to their "generosity", the SNP are now 2 members less, my wife and I."

If your politics can be changed by trivial nonsense like this then you are a fickle simpleton and no great loss to any political party. If you can stop your knees jerking long enough perhaps you'd like to explain exactly what is wrong with claiming for a work-related expense.
99

The Tin Man,

30/05/2009 10:33:53
#111 Tom

Maybe I can lay a wreath on the grave of Holyrood's honour and morality, and claim it back from HM Revenues & Customs?
100

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 10:37:48
119
The Tin Man

"Maybe I can lay a wreath on the grave of Holyrood's honour and morality, and claim it back from HM Revenues & Customs?"

Instead of spouting this glib drivel, maybe you could explain what is dishonourable and/or immoral about claiming a perfectly legitimate work-related expense.
101

The Tin Man,

30/05/2009 10:38:21
#118 Hermit

Charitable donations are not 'work-related expense'. Even Westminster clamped-down on it.
102

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2009 10:39:06
117
Hmmm..interesting to note that some cybernats are finally beginning to realise that having the word 'National' in your party's name always rings alarm bells....
103

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 30/05/2009 10:42:36
This wreath matter really has highlighted the need to have proper distinctions between what politicians should be reimbursed for. The useful demarcations are a) what they incur to carry out their public functions.(paid by the taxpayer) b) what they do that is party political (paid by their party) and c)and their private and personal items.(paid by themselves from their own money)
Commonsense should tell them which is which.
Laying a wreath I would have thought fell into the first category.Although there is an element of party advantage and hopefully personal satisfaction.

But all this saga is becoming very petty and trying to smear decent MSPs of all parties is journalism of the worst kind. There is no financial benefit to the MSPs having the cost of a wreath reimbursed which they have ordered for their public duty.

Perhaps we could all save even more public money and abolish remembrance day altogether. Or the cenotaph ceremony could look for sponsorship. The O2 Remebrance Celebrations. with a big O2 symbol on the side of the cenotaph. and an O2 wreath from the Queen! I see the slogan "Have your own two minute silence - send a text to a friend instead"
104

Nevsky;,

Moscow 30/05/2009 10:44:08
119 Tin Man*

More appropriate to lay one at Labour HQ i feel.
105

The Tin Man,

30/05/2009 10:45:32
#120 Hermit

Charitable donations are not 'work related expenses'. What makes you think that they are, btw?
106

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2009 10:46:45
Strange how the cybernats go all reasonable now that their mob are caught trough-guzzling.
107

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/05/2009 10:50:35
129 Are you still clutching that pitchfork ? Burned any witches recently ?

This article is ridiculous, and the MSP's should not have paid the money back. Some employment related expenses are legitimate and these wreaths are amongst them.
108

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 10:50:51
121
The Tin Man

"Charitable donations are not 'work-related expense'. Even Westminster clamped-down on it."

The wreaths are laid on behalf of the Scottish Parliament. Therefore, the Scottish Parliament should pay for them. It is not charity if you get someone else to pay for your gift.
109

Nevsky;,

Moscow 30/05/2009 10:53:15
122 Grahamski*

What about the New Zealand National Party are they facists too?
110

TWC,

exLabour 30/05/2009 10:53:37
127 Park Ranger,sorry it doesn't wash and even now Brown is dithering. I 'm not a member of any party I just see Labour for what they have become; the Sleaziest party that ever exixted.
111

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 10:57:22
128
The Tin Man

"Charitable donations are not 'work related expenses'. What makes you think that they are, btw?"

We are not talking about a charitable donation. Although the story is presented in such a way as to suggest as much to the terminally gullible. We are talking about items purchased from a commercial organisation as a necessary part of an MSP's duties.
112

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2009 11:00:04
130
Aye, now that the flames are heading towards the nats it's all "let's not be too quick to judge"....Aye, right.
113

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2009 11:01:47
135
And is spending £160 on one cushion a necessary and justifiable part of an MP's expenses?
114

Tris,

30/05/2009 11:02:55
~ 43. W Smith: Is this the same SNP that gave 400,000 quid of the TAXPAYERS money to the Scottish Islamic Foundation??
The same SNP that gave six million quid of TAXPAYERS money to gay rights groups? Is it the same 'patriotic' SNP that grudges 20 quid of their OWN MONEY to remember the war dead.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

What's your point. They give taxpayers money to a lot of things. The job of being an MP or MSP is not to give your own money to anything.

The police lay a wreath; they don't pay for it themselves. Indeed the armed forces don't pay for their own wreath. It is money spent by a grateful nation.

Is there, in your view, something wrong with giving taxpayers' money for this?

And what's wrong with giving money to muslim or gay groups. Don't they pay taxes too?
115

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 11:05:55
130
Observer

"...the MSP's should not have paid the money back."

Absolutely right. I would have had more respect for them if they had stood their ground. I don't want a parliament filled with wimps who instantly buckle to this kind of petty press bullying.
116

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/05/2009 11:07:12
137 There is a substantive difference between spending an inflated sum on a cushion and cheating HMRC out of capital gains tax and using Parliamentary allowances for property speculation. And the penalties incurred for such behaviour should be proportionate to the offence.

You are not stupid so you actually realise that.

Your sustained campaign of villification of ALL MP's for the sins of some does not do you credit.

And this article is ridiculous - laying wreaths in a public capacity does not require the elected member to purchase the wreaths themselves. They are doing it as part of their job.
117

,

30/05/2009 11:08:16
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
118

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2009 11:09:32
140
Observer,
From independent leftie to party hack. Oh how the mighty have fallen....
119

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/05/2009 11:10:00
141 That is a bare faced lie.
120

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2009 11:11:05
144
See my post at 142
121

John Loftus,

30/05/2009 11:11:51
They cant even dip into their own pockets for the wounded soldiers???????
Most of you are missing the point.
Who sends these poor guys off to war in the first place????Not me or you,the pigs at the trough do!!!
Have any of them ever visited Erskine hospital???Probably not,it may be hard to claim for compassion on the sicko list.
I'm thinking of standing for Parliament at the next election.As I've got more credibility than any of this shower of chancers.
I wouldn't even claim exspences.I'd just like to have a job,like so many others who have ended up on the scrapheap by the inconsiderate policies of those who purport to represent us.
122

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/05/2009 11:12:19
142 I am not a member of any party and never will be (unlike you).

You are the one who is acting like the party hack and your reason seems to have departed from you in the process. I haven't mentioned party affiliation on the expenses issue, I don't care about that. But common sense needs to be applied here.

I am surprised you are letting the Torygraph get to you like this.
123

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 11:12:27
137
Grahamski

"And is spending £160 on one cushion a necessary and justifiable part of an MP's expenses?"

It could be. I would need more information. Not being a reactionary idiot, I don't leap to conclusions on the basis of nothing more than a price ticket.

But you are seriously confused. The topic here is specifically wreaths. Those of us not encumbered by partisan blinkers can readily see that the cost of purchasing these wreaths is an expense incurred as part of the MSPs' duties. It is only right that they should be reimbursed.
124

,

30/05/2009 11:17:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
125

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 11:19:08
143
Park Ranger

"The problem on this site is that many of the SNP think there leader is wonderful..."

Whether SNP or not, many of us simply recognise the fact that Alex Salmond is a very competent politician and, by an astronomical distance, the most effective national leader Scotland has had in generations.

I doubt very much that the term "wonderful" would be the first thing to spring to anyone's mind when describing the man.
126

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2009 11:19:27
148
Aye, rationalise letting the greedy wee piggies in the SNP off...
127

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/05/2009 11:22:27
150 You missed out the ''centre for social cohesion'' in your little list. You can't seriously be suggesting that Tom Gallagher and the quilliam foundation are safe sources of evidence can you ?

Do some research.

BTW the stench of the looney right is emanating from you........
128

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/05/2009 11:25:33
152 My rationale applies to any MP. You seem prepared to dispatch countless Labour MP's to Valhalla (or the Lords in this instance) in order to entrap a couple of SNP politicians.

Sad, really.
129

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2009 11:28:50
Strange that not one cybernat can refute the facts instead they resort to personal attacks or juvenile name-calling.
In their infantile and indecent haste to cozy up to other Brit-haters they've found themselves in some very unsavoury company. They really should have taken heed of the old adage; 'If you lie down with dogs expect to rise with fleas'.
Another example of their glib sneering coming back to bite them on the bahooky.
130

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/05/2009 11:32:13
158 What facts ? The mis-representation of the SIF, the mis-representation of the expenses issue, or the mis-representation of the Justice Minister ? Quite happy to refute all three of them - where would you like me to start ?
131

JaF,

30/05/2009 11:32:41
Spot the Difference ?
All MPs have been banned from claiming the cost of Remembrance Day wreaths since 2004 but this hasn't stopped some from trying to cliam back the cost of a Remembrance wreath on expenses.
Some MSPs claimed for Remembrance Day wreaths and these claims fell within parliament's rules.
In the first sentence the word claim is mispelt.
132

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 11:33:51
157
Park Ranger

"...£800 for a food bill is disgusting..."

Is it? What makes it "disgusting"? Is it the "8"? Is it the zeros? Or is it the pound sign? Or could it be that your "disgust" is nothing more than a knee-jerk reaction to press propaganda? Try thinking for yourself. Try asking some questions instead of dumbly accepting whatever sh*t the media shovels into your head.
133

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2009 11:37:48
161
I would like you to start with the SIF and why Scottish taxpayers should fund seminars given by holocaust deniers. Start with that and we'll move on to why we should give public funds to those who call for the killing of apostates. After that we will examine the Muslim Brotherhood and the terrorist group, HAMAS.
134

Mèths,

30/05/2009 11:44:21
"the word 'National' in your party's name always rings alarm bells."

Scottish NATIONAL Orchestra
NATIONAL Geographic
The Grand NATIONAL

Bile yer heid grahamski and get off to the match.
135

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2009 11:46:42
167
Since when was the SNO a political party? Wish I was going to the match, play up the bairns!
136

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/05/2009 11:51:36
164 The Scottish government doesn't fund HAMAS. It funds the SIF (as recommended by the independent civil servants who evaluated the bid) which allocation of funds was audited and found to be legitimate by an independent enquiry.

The Scottish Islamic Foundation's core principles are to promote human rights and civil liberties, support freedom of expression and religious practices, advocate a just foreign policy that helps create and maintain freedom and democracy, facilitate understanding, cohesion, and dialogue between Muslims and non-Muslims, to promote peace, tackle all forms of discrimination and abuse with particular attention to religion, race, and gender, to empower muslims in civic participation, to support the practise of Islam as something that deepens citizenship, etc etc.

Nothing there about killing gays Grahamski.
137

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2009 11:53:41
169
I have no problem and indeed would encourage 'legitimate' Islamic foundations. I am surprised that you would find it difficult to condemn those who would deny the holocaust. Can you condemn those who would advocate the murder of apostates and homosexuals?
138

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2009 11:56:30
170
Fine words indeed. Now, back to the point, should we give funds to an organisation who gives a platform to holocaust deniers? A yes or no will do.
139

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/05/2009 12:02:09
173 What holocaust deniers ?

Now - are you aware that you are insulting the independent civil servants who evaluated and approved the grant that was awarded to the SIF ? On what basis do you think that is reasonable ?
140

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 12:02:17
165
Park Ranger

I see you decided not to act on my suggestion that you try thinking for yourself.
141

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/05/2009 12:10:01
''I find little difference between the BNP and the SNP.''

Then you must be an idiot.

''The party political nature of the Quillium Foundation is shown in their astonishing and completely unbalanced attack on Osama Saeed, a prominent SNP candidate and a friend of mine. For New Labour to have even the faintest hope of a respectable performance at the next general election they must protect their Scottish base against the SNP. This pathetic attempt to smear the SNP as connected to Islamic extremism is a blatant abuse of tax payers money.''

That from Craig Murray.

Now, who to believe ? Grahamski or Craig. Hmmmm.
142

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2009 12:11:20
174
Osama Saaed was involved with the MAB a Muslim Brotherhood front organisation. He has previous for being linked with Islamist organisations whilst presenting himself as moderate, for example on 7th November 2006, he wrote on his blog that the arrest, in Yemen, of Imam Anwar Al-Awlaki was “further evidence of what a crock the war on terror is”.
“Imam Anwar Al-Awlaki was originally hounded in the US becuase [sic] two of the 9/11 bombers happened to pray at his mosque. Many of my Muslim readers will either know him personally or have heard his lectures. He preached nothing but peace, and I pray he will be able to do so again.”
Nothing but peace?
Is this absolutely true, do you think?
Nope.
In early January of 2009, al Awlaki published an essay titled “44 Ways to Support Jihad” on his web site. The paper is targeted to a young, English-speaking , Muslim audience and calls for armed and financial support of Jihad against the “kuffar.”
Oh well, there's just one lie exposed. There's plenty more where that came from....
143

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/05/2009 12:15:25
183 I am off I don't have time to go through all your false allegations at this moment in time, but you are hanging about with some extremely dodgy people and posting stuff which would not be out of place on the BNP's website.

I hope you have a very long spoon.
144

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2009 12:15:29
176
Quite simply; should public funds finance seminars given by people who deny the holocaust?
Why do you find answering this simple question so difficult?
145

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2009 12:18:21
184
False allegations? I merely quote from their websites. Easily verifiable.
Anyway.
Have a great afternoon and enjoy the sun....
146

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 12:19:13
166
cu ceallach

"Indeed £800 over two recess months as I understand it."

Precisely my point. When you actually take the trouble to analyse the claim, it doesn't look all that unreasonable. And the same can be said of many of the other claims that the Angry Villagers are getting themselves in a lather about.

"Salmond certainly should not have claimed this but did have every right too."

And why should he have foregone something that he is entitled to? How many of the sanctimonious praters sermonising about MP's expenses ever handed back money to their employer, or voluntarily paid more tax than they needed to? How many of them are innocent of ever having inflated an insurance claim? How many of them can honestly say they have never paid cash to avoid VAT?

By all means question whether Salmond or any of the others SHOULD be entitled to particular payments. But if you don't want to leave yourself open to a charge of hypocrisy, don't condemn people for taking what is their by right unless you are prepared to abandon your own entitlements.
147

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2009 12:22:29
186
When I say 'links' I mean links as in Mr Saaed was a spokesperson for MAB which is a front for MB - a fundamentalist Islamist group whose Palestinian wing is the terrorist group HAMAS.
That's what I mean by links. The post on 183 demonstrates Mr Saeed lying about Imam Anwar Al-Awlaki who describes as a peace-loving dove. That's a lie, Imam Anwar Al-Awlaki published an essay entitled “44 Ways to Support Jihad” on his web site. The paper is targeted to a young, English-speaking , Muslim audience and calls for armed and financial support of Jihad against the “kuffar.”
148

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 12:23:48
179
Park Ranger

"I find little difference between the BNP and the SNP."

Then you are a moron.
149

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 12:26:03
181
Park Ranger

"Salmond only has to say jump and little old you would say how high almighty leader."

You seem to have convinced yourself that I am a member of the SNP. Have I mentioned that you are a moron?
150

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 12:32:09
190
Park Ranger

"The behaviour on these threads towards the English..."

I've never seen any anti-English sentiments expressed here. If there are, and if they are as bad as you are trying to make out, simply click the "Report Unsuitable" link. I'm sure I speak for the vast majority of posters, nationalist or unionist, when I say that we want none of that BNP-style xenophobic bile in this place.
151

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2009 12:32:29
196
Mr Saaed lied about a fundamentalist islamist on his website. He lied about his organisation and conned the SNP into funding his organisation.
Why can't the cybernats condemn those who deny the holocaust?
152

Mèths,

30/05/2009 12:33:14
198

.... probably - while glugging a can of super-lager.
153

Mèths,

30/05/2009 12:36:27
Grahamski

Who recommended that they be funded?
154

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 12:40:40
200
Grahamski

"...conned the SNP into funding his organisation."

It wasn't the SNP that awarded funding - it was the Scottish Government, acting on advice from civil servants.

If you are something more than the babbling bigot that you appear to be and actually have some evidence to back up your ranting, I strongly urge you to get off your backside and take your "evidence" to the relevant authorities.
155

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2009 12:41:24
205
Oh my sweet lord!
Why can't the cybernats just say they don't support holocaust deniers?
156

preddo53,

Leeds 30/05/2009 12:42:02
I'd just like to know what MPs spend their wages on, we know what they spend ours on, but I would really like to see some MPs bank balances. Are we all a little thick, why isn't there 40 million of us outside Westminster. I'm not a revolutionary but I think Dianne Abbot was right when she said people want to see MPs hanging from lamposts, Iv'e never felt so frustrated and effing angry.
157

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2009 12:42:27
208
Should public money fund those who call for the murder of homosexuals? A yes or no will do, thanks.
158

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 12:45:35
212
preddo53

"Iv'e never felt so frustrated and effing angry."

Enjoying it, aren't you.
159

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 12:46:51
213
Grahamski

"A yes or no will do, thanks."

Arrogant as you are, you don't get to tell others how to answer.
160

Mèths,

30/05/2009 12:50:56
Grahamski

You are coming across as a bit of a diddy on this thread.
161

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 12:52:32
217
Park Ranger

"...his brainwashed supporters think that he was in his rights to do so."

It is brainwashed morons such as yourself who think he wasn't. Ask you to explain what laws, rules, regulations or codes were breached, and you are totally lost.

This applies to many, if not most, MPs' claims and not just Alex Salmond - the object of your rather worrying obsession.
162

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2009 12:56:23
218
It is perfectly obvious that the cybernats have NO answer to the charge that the SNP have been conned by Saaed. They gave him tons of cash and he went off and spent it on inviting all manner of Islamo-fascists to come over and spread their filthy message of intolerance under the banner of tolerance. How deliciously ironic.
He also knew that he would be protected by the kind of useful idiots who scream islamophobe at any questioning of fundamentalist islam - those western han-wringers and Brit-haters who completely fail to spot the contempt they are held in by the zealots...
163

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 12:58:33
227
Park Ranger

"So he does not earn enough money to pay for his own food bill."

Are you genuinely too thick to recognise that Salmond was entitled to claim this expense? It was part of the remuneration package that came with the job. When was the last time you didn't bother to collect your wages? When did you or any of the other self-righteous, sanctimonious hypocrites ever decline to cash a tax rebate cheque?

164

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 13:00:42
228
Grahamski

"It is perfectly obvious that the cybernats have NO answer to the charge that the SNP have been conned by Saaed."

What is obvious is that you are too much of a blinkered bigot to even see the answers you have been given, far less understand them.
165

Mèths,

30/05/2009 13:01:32
Park Ranger

How are your demons?
166

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 13:02:03
233
Park Ranger

Troll! Ignore it!
167

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2009 13:05:38
232
And another cybernat scuttles away...still not able to bring themselves to condemn those who deny the holocaust or call for the murder of apostates or homosexuals...
168

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2009 13:06:12
234
Do you condemn those would deny the holocaust?
169

Mèths,

30/05/2009 13:06:51
237

You twist - you spin - you're pathetic.
170

JaF,

30/05/2009 13:07:14
#157: Park Ranger...but £800 for a food bill is disgusting and surely that makes him no different to the other load of crooks.
Are you serious or being silly ?
I don't think AS or any SNP MP are in the same league as:-
David Chaytor,has admitted that he had claimed almost £13,000 in interest payments for a mortgage that he had already repaid.
Elliot Morley who claimed almost £16,000 for a non-existent mortgage.
Clare Short Labour MP for Birmingham Ladywood claimed the full cost of her mortgage for two and a half years, despite being entitled to charge only for the interest element.
Alistair Darling the Chancellor changed the property on which he claims second homes allowance four times in five years, pocketing £111,000 of public cash in the process.
Ed Balls and Yvette Cooper who reportedly "flipped" their second home to three different properties within two years.
171

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 13:11:35
238
Grahamski

"Do you condemn those would deny the holocaust?"

Personally, I think "condemn" is too strong a term. I find them generally rather foolish. What I would vigorously condemn would be holocaust denial as part of the kind of bigoted hate-mongering campaign that you indulge in.
172

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/05/2009 13:19:15
Are you still snarling away Grahamski ? You know you really have to try and get your head around the fact that campaigning for an ethical foreign policy and opposing imperialist wars in Iraq and Afghanistan does not make you a holocaust denier.

That is what is behind the hysterical campaign against the SIF. New Labour have lost votes because of their foreign policy and attitude to the middle east.

And the SNP have gained them.

173

,

30/05/2009 13:29:26
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
174

The Tin Man,

30/05/2009 13:37:09
It looks like a lot of Hootsmon posters are so far down the nanny State road that they thing the State is responsible for buying poppies for poli's.

"GLOSSOP MP Tom Levitt says an expenses claim for a Remembrance Sunday poppy wreath was made in error.
The member of parliament for High Peak submitted a claim for £16.50 for the wreath in 2006, but had the claim rejected by Parliament’s fees office as it was against the rules"

http://www.glossopadvertiser.co.uk/news/s/1117568_poppy_wreath_mistake_by_mp

...And that was three years ago.

175

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2009 13:37:30
243
Observer,
I'm not snarling at all.
I believe that the public funding of clerics and 'scholars' who deny the holocaust, advocate the killing of gays and apostates and who argue for the subjugation of women is unacceptable.
I note that not one cybernat dares to agree. Why?
Because deep down they know that there is evidence of the SIF having invited people who hold these beliefs to deliver lectures and seminars at the public's expense.
And the cybernats have the gall to complain about their opponents' cynicism.....
Anyway, the mighty bairns face Rangers this afternoon - must go and get in the zone. I know you won't understand....
Enjoy the rest of your weekend.
176

Mèths,

30/05/2009 13:42:32
Park Ranger

"Well I know you will all be very sad by this but I am now leaving you all as I have to go the pub and watch the FA cup"

Thank you for allowing us a glimpse into your private world.
177

,

30/05/2009 13:43:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
178

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/05/2009 13:45:30
246 You really need to stop reading those dodgy web sites. Try reading Osama's blog instead. It's called rolled up trousers - unfortunately for you there is no holocaust denying, or death to gays/apostates involved.
179

The Tin Man,

30/05/2009 13:46:33
All the party's have recognised that the claims were wrong:

"SNP MSPs will either be reimbursing the money or making donations equal to the cost of the wreaths to Poppyscotland."

"Labour MSPs decided to pay their money back to the parliament"

"No Conservative or Green MSPs claimed back money for wreaths"

"The Lib Dems also promised to repay money "

But we have Hootsmon posters saying they should keep the money. ??
180

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 13:46:41
246
Grahamski

"I note that not one cybernat dares to agree."

Has it occurred to you that this may be because nobody acknowledges the silly name, "cybernat"? Of course it hasn't!
181

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2009 13:51:11
249
Of course there's none of that on his website - he's an islamist not a fool. However, I fully accept what you are saying about some of the unsavoury websites who attack Mr Saeed, however his utternaces and support for people like Yusuf-al-Qaradawi which have been reported in the mainstream press and media call his judgement and motives into question.
182

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 13:51:21
250
The Tin Man

"But we have Hootsmon posters saying they should keep the money."

Regardless of what the MSPs have been bullied into doing, some of us have wits enough to recognise that the purchase of wreaths is a legitimate work-related expense.
183

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/05/2009 13:51:45
250.

If the MSP is engaged in a public duty (non party political) then they should not be obliged to pay for the wreath themselves. It's not the person who is laying the wreath - it's the office-holder representing the office.

That seems stunningly obvious to me and I am surprised anyone should question it. It just goes to show how hysterical this situation has become.
184

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2009 13:53:35
250
Aye, but in Nat LA LA land even when they're wrong they're right (or at the very least, they're wrong but it's not their fault, so they're right)
185

Fifi la Bonbon,

30/05/2009 13:56:08
Oh, we're on to Osama Saeed, are we?

The nationalist party has not been conned by Mr Saeed. Mister Salmond knew exactly what he was doing in his dealings with the Saeed brothers and their dad. The nationalist party has made a pact with the Muslim Brotherhood. An MP and a couple of MSPs at the next election in return for half a million quid, Muslim schools to be run by Saeed, Saeed & Saeed and their cousin Humza Yousaf.

And I still don't think the MSPs should be forced to pay for these bloody wreaths.
186

Iainbroch,

30/05/2009 13:56:58
What on Earth are the Onionist trolls havering about now?

I guess it has escaped thier tiny brains that it was the UK and the USA that sheltered many Nazi psychopaths in the aftermath of WW2. But hey lets not let some historical truths get in the way of them having a bout of rabies!
187

JT,

30/05/2009 13:57:30
Just how many service personnel have died since this scandal broke? These MSP's should go and apologise in person to the families who have lost their loved ones and explain to them why they claimed back on wreaths and if any MSP survives that then they should be jailed!!
188

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 13:59:49
245
The Tin Man

"It looks like a lot of Hootsmon posters are so far down the nanny State road that they thing the State is responsible for buying poppies for poli's."

For all your inane bleating about the "nanny State" you are apparently too stupid to realise that is you who is demanding something for nothing. Let's see if I can explain it in terms that even you might be able to comprehend.

When MSPs lay wreaths at war memorials they do so in their capacity as members of the Scottish parliament. They are representing the Scottish parliament. They are representing US. Therefore, it is up to us to pay for the wreath.

Assuming you are resident in Scotland, they are representing YOU. Therefore, it us up to you to pay for the wreath. You want to renege on this debt. You should be ashamed of yourself. But I'm sure you won't be.
189

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/05/2009 14:03:10
Oh goody here comes Fifi to back up Grahamski - it's all a huge plot between the muslim brotherhood and Alex Salmond, he gets free curries in return for handing over Scotland to sharia law, religious apartheid in schooling, and Scotland goes tee-total as we are all converted to Islam and establish a Caledonian caliphate policed by a tartan taleban.

Very credible isn't it. Not.
190

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 14:03:35
258
JT

What a load of hysterical drivel!
191

,

30/05/2009 14:05:31
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
192

Mèths,

30/05/2009 14:06:11
258

It's the rubber room for you.
193

The Tin Man,

30/05/2009 14:07:13
#254 Observer

Looks like you are far gone. No-one is forcing any polit's to attend rememberence events. If you went to a rememberance event and laid a wreath, you have the decency to pay for it out of your pocket.

If it was 'a public duty', why did only 15 MSPs make the claims? Is it not a 'public duty' in all the other constituencies?

Why are they paying back the claims?

Why is it against the rules at Westminster?
194

Mèths,

30/05/2009 14:07:50
260 Observer

Still laughing at that one Obs.
195

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 14:08:10
260
Observer

I have to say that I am fervently opposed to the SNP's support for faith schools. A fact which I have communicated to them in terms that left no room for misunderstanding.

I will continue to vote SNP because independence is the crucial factor. But so long as the party actively works towards giving religious fanatics privileged access to our children I will be gritting my teeth while making my mark.
196

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2009 14:10:45
266
The Labour Party's support for faith schools is equally reprehensible. We should follow the French and have no religions in our state schools.
197

The Tin Man,

30/05/2009 14:12:03
#266

Agreed 100%. Segregated education has to stop.
198

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/05/2009 14:12:27
264 Politicians are not invited to remembrance ceremonies as individuals. They are invited as the holder of their Office, so it is the Office that should pay not the individual. It's a very clear cut distinction, I am surprised that you don't understand it.

On what basis do you think a politician could refuse to attend a remembrance ceremony ? I can't think of any apart from illness, in which case they would be required to send a substitute. Should the substitute in that case pay for the wreath ?

Of course not. Just have a think about it.
199

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 14:13:06
264
The Tin Man

What is it about this that causes you such obvious confusion? If an individual chooses not to claim something to which they are entitled it does not automatically follow that neither they nor anyone else is entitled.

It is against the rules in Westminster because they bowed to the clamour from hysterical simpletons like you. I would rather have representatives capable of standing up to the baying mob.
200

Mèths,

30/05/2009 14:13:32
266, 267 & 268

Add me to that list.
201

Fifi la Bonbon,

30/05/2009 14:14:01
262 - "Aw Jeez. Here's Fifi back with more BNP claptrap."

well that's defamatory - should I sue?
202

The Tin Man,

30/05/2009 14:14:28
#259 Hermit

I can buy my own poppies. I don't need some polit to do it for me. Unlike you, it appears.
203

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/05/2009 14:15:33
Whether you favour a secular education system (as I do) and would like to abolish faith schooling (as I do) cuts across party lines. At the moment no party apart from the Greens and the socialists are committed to it.

There is no evidence to suggest the SNP are any more or less influenced by the religious lobby than any other mainstream party.
204

Mèths,

30/05/2009 14:16:04
272

Sue for the truth? Don't be so simple.
205

Mèths,

30/05/2009 14:17:29
Fifi

It was your "The nationalist party has made a pact with the Muslim Brotherhood" I was referring to. BNP to the core. Do you shave your head?
206

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 14:17:44
267
Grahamski

"The Labour Party's support for faith schools is equally reprehensible."

Of course it is. But I have no reason to vote for the British Labour Party. I have to vote SNP in order to secure independence and, in the interim, a government that puts the interests of the Scottish people first.

After independence there will be time enough to eradicate faith schools.
207

letmein,

hinterland 30/05/2009 14:18:02
I just read that wee wufus is doctor death ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
208

The Tin Man,

30/05/2009 14:19:55
#269 Observer

I would imagine that if they are invited to a rememberance event, they are invited as being human beings, not employees.

Would you have claimed the cost of a poppy wreath, back? I guess so. Not me. But that is your 'point of view'.
209

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 14:20:20
271
Mèths

"Add me to that list."

My remarks seem to have struck a chord. I hope Alex Salmond is reading this.
210

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/05/2009 14:20:46
Football time. Play up the bairns!
211

The Tin Man,

30/05/2009 14:21:25
#277 Hermit

"I have to vote SNP in order to secure independence"

No you don't - you could also vote for the Greens, or for Tommy S.
212

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 14:22:36
273
The Tin Man

"I can buy my own poppies. I don't need some polit to do it for me. Unlike you, it appears."

Still terminally confused, I see. We are not talking about poppies. We are talking about wreaths. Wreaths that are laid by your representative on your behalf. But you refuse to pay.
213

letmein,

hinterland 30/05/2009 14:22:39
In no way should MSP's pay for the poppies to lay at war memorials. It is part of their job description to represent the masses. So they are quite right to claim for them.
214

letmein,

hinterland 30/05/2009 14:24:36
Tin Man you just dont get it do you? Stop posting on a subject you cannot seem to understand.
215

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/05/2009 14:26:05
279 No it's not my ''point of view'' it's an understanding of how public life works, which you don't seem to share.
216

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 14:26:50
279
The Tin Man

"I would imagine that if they are invited to a rememberance event, they are invited as being human beings, not employees."

Let's not delve into the dismal depths of your imagination. Whatever belief you so desperately cling to, the fact remains that MSPs attend remembrance ceremonies as part of their parliamentary duties.

All the slavering about poppies is totally irrelevant. And it is still you who is insisting that someone else pays for your wreath.
217

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 14:28:09
282
The Tin Man

"No you don't - you could also vote for the Greens, or for Tommy S"

I am being realistic. There must be a word for what you are being.
218

The Tin Man,

30/05/2009 14:31:58
#287 Electric

Oh well, that's your opinion. Thankfully it is not the opinion of the SNP, Labour, the Lib Dems, the Conservatives, the Greens, or the independent member.
Ho hum.

I guess you would have tried to claim the £16 back. Not me.
219

The Tin Man,

30/05/2009 14:37:05
#286 Observer

So, would you have tried to claim-back the money?
220

Firozali A.Mulla MBA PhD,

Dar-Es-Salaam 30/05/2009 14:38:44
I try my best to create laugh in these hard times as all are having Balls at the movement, Bank gone, houses collapsed, Iraq war on, British soldiers killed at 17, USA tell us to paint the roof and roads white, GAY AND monkeys and giraffe taking the headliners. Tell me where do we go?
Allah protect you from small calamities, the bigger leave them to the politicians. HE is tired too.
decuman
PRONUNCIATION:
(DEK-yoo-muhn)
MEANING:
adjective: Very large.
ETYMOLOGY:
From Latin decumanus, variant of decimanus (of the tenth), from decimus (tenth), from decem (ten). The word was often applied to waves from the belief that every tenth wave is greater than the others. The word also referred to the main gate of a military camp in ancient Rome. This gate faced away from the enemy and the tenth cohort of the legion was stationed there. A related word is decimate and a dean is, literally speaking, a chief of ten.
USAGE:
"The lover whose soul shaken is
In some decuman billow of bliss."
Francis Thompson; The Way of a Maid; c. 1890.
A THOUGHT FOR TODAY:
Every man thinks God is on his side. The rich and powerful know he is. -Jean Anouilh, dramatist (1910-1987)
Oil. What about OIL? Bush has not, Tony has not. Where is it Ok. It is nearly 70usdpb
I thank you.
Firozali A.Mulla.
221

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/05/2009 14:39:59
294 Yep. And I wouldn't have kow-towed to the media either by refunding the money. These MSP's are being pretty wimpy.
222

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 14:40:11
291
The Tin Man

I think it is now painfully clear that you are simply not capable of grasping the logic here. I have to admit that I find such determined irrationality quite baffling.
223

Fifi la Bonbon,

30/05/2009 14:40:31
#276 - "It was your "The nationalist party has made a pact with the Muslim Brotherhood" I was referring to. BNP to the core. Do you shave your head?"


I don't see how realising that Mister Salmond is trying to buy his way into the Muslim community is an indicator of affiliation to the BNP.

I do see how suggesting that anyone who mistrusts Osama Saeed and Mister Salmond's use of half a million pounds of public money is a BNP affiliate is an attempt to taint me by association. You are using a blatant smearing tactic.

Anyone who knows me by the posts I have been making in this forum for longer than you will be aware that I disapprove of all nationalist, sectarian and communalist parties -- British, Scottish, German, Irish, Tamil, Serb, Croat and all the rest. Their nationalism and sectarianism leads to labelling the others as unpatriotic, then quislings and traitors.

In this case, I think that Mister Salmond has seen a way in to cornering the market in appealing to a communalist identity among Scottish Muslims and is funding an agent to deliver a couple of constituencies. This needs to be exposed and resisted.

I think I have been consistent in setting this out, and reminding people of Mr Saeed's antecendents. It is defamatory, and stupid, to label people who are opposed to communalist politics as somehow linked to the BNP. Hopefully more supporters of our home-grown nationalist party will see what's going on and begin to think for themselves instead of slavshly defending everything Mister Salmond says and does.

And I continue to believe that it was a mistake for the fifteen MSPs to cave in over the wreaths.
224

Firozali A.Mulla MBA PhD,

Dar-Es-Salaam 30/05/2009 14:41:43
Gordon Brown = War Criminal
Geoff Hoon = War Criminal
Jack Straw = War Criminal
TOTAL =======
General Petraeus Speaks Out: Abuse 'Violated the Geneva Conventions'
The Man Called Petraeus isn't towing the GOP party line. Will they say he betrayed them?
MacCallum: Where do you think those people should go?
Gen. Petraeus: Well, it's not for a soldier to say. What I do support is what has been termed the responsible closure of Gitmo. Gitmo has caused us problems, there's no question about it. I oversee a region in which the existence of Gitmo has been used by the enemy against us. We have not been without missteps or mistakes in our activity since 9/11 and again Gitmo is a lingering reminder for the use of some in that regard.
Two Stupid Assaults on Religion and One Idiotic Religious Attack on Obama.
Couple of stories relating to religion came across the transom this morning, and I figured I'd offer one of those lazy, cobbled-together blog-posts with no clear narrative arc (sorry, writing snobs!).
First up, the Washington Post reports that same-sex marriage advocates on the East Coast are making hay out of the Mormons' financial support for discrimination against gays and lesbians in California:
Okay if you do not like Obama, how about a a change in scene.
Sex With Ducks: A Hilarious Take Down of Pat Robertson's Stance on Gay Marriage
A great pro-gay marriage music video in response to Robertson's quote that legalizing gay marriage would lead to legalizing sex with ducks.
Riki "Garfunkel" Lindhome and Kate "Oates" Micucci sing a pro-gay marriage song in response to a Pat Robertson quote that legalizing gay marriage would lead to legalizing sex with ducks.
I thank you
Firozali A.Mulla
225

The Tin Man,

30/05/2009 14:44:31
#296 Observer

Wow. At least you are honest, even if generosity evades you.
226

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 14:44:32
292
cu ceallach

"Why doesn't the parliament simply setup a remembrance fund which pays for poppies every year by making a donation to the various charities ."

Or an expenses scheme that allows MSPs to claim back money they spend with charitable organisations ON PARLIAMENT'S BEHALF.
227

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/05/2009 14:47:39
''You are using a blatant smearing tactic''

Ha ha ha ha - tell me you posted that in a post-ironic kinda way.

The posts you and Grahamski have made concerning Mr Saeed have been nothing more than smears - which is what you have in common with the BNP (do you shave your head ?)

Just one question for you fifi - on what basis do you reach your conclusions about Mr Saeed. Do you know him ? Do you live in the constituency he hopes to represent ? Have you had any dealings with him yourself, or do you just pluck your slanders from the internet whole ?
228

The Tin Man,

30/05/2009 14:48:08
#296 Observer

Of course, it is a lot easier to be generous with other people's money, and polit's are experts, so maybe it's in their DNA. But you surprise me.
229

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 14:49:25
292
cu ceallach

"Why doesn't the parliament simply setup a remembrance fund which pays for poppies every year by making a donation to the various charities ."

Another alternative would be for the Scottish parliament to buy wreaths in bulk to give to MSPs attending remembrance services. Of course, such central purchasing would be subject to tendering rules which would mean that the wreaths would most likely come from China and veteran's charities would get nothing.

But fools like Tin Man would be satisfied.
230

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/05/2009 14:53:08
303 Look politicians are entitled to claim for legitimate expenses. Just because some of them have been cheating the public purse doesn't mean to say that they are not entitled to claim what is legitimately claimable. That's a piece of nonsense.
231

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 14:55:01
303
The Tin Man

"...it is a lot easier to be generous with other people's money..."

You would know. You are the one desperately trying to get out of paying your share of a legitimate expense.
232

The Tin Man,

30/05/2009 14:55:02
#305 cu

"D-Day veteran Dr Tom Renouf, 84, who was only 19 when his unit - the 5th Battalion, The Black Watch - hit the beach in Normandy, said: 'If you are going to lay a wreath, then surely it is something from yourself - not the taxpayer.

'It really is rather artificial and misplaced. As a tribute to the fallen, it really ought to be something personal. and putting it on an expenses budget is getting away from the real purpose of remembrance.'"

I agree, and I also eat fruit.
233

Fitba Krazy,

30/05/2009 14:57:15
I also think religion should be ejected from the school curriculum except where it is being explained how divisive and sectarian it actually is. Anyone with half a brain can see that, the others are a tad on the bigoted side at least. No more double standards and fairy tales as gospel. School is for learning about Maths, Languages, Sciences, Geography, History etc. Not for turning young people into the next generation of bigoted half-wits mistrusting and disliking others through brainwashing and indoctrination.
234

The Tin Man,

30/05/2009 15:02:16
#308 Electric

I support legitimate morality, you support legitimate bureaucracy. It appears that you find that confusing, along with 15 out of 129 MSPs.
235

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 15:05:33
306
cu ceallach

"Such a donation to a charity wouldn't be subject to tendering rules."

You may be right. But as it is effectively the purchase of supplies, I suspect tendering rules would apply regardless of the status of the supplier. And such an arrangement would not achieve anything different from what happens at present. MSPs pay the money to Poppyscotland and the Scottish parliament reimburses the MSPs. It's not complicated. And it has worked perfectly well for years.
236

jane shore,

london 30/05/2009 15:06:00

FitbaKrazy what is it with you Scots? Secular schooling throughout GB. Sectarian problems greatest in Scotland & N.I. Why the bigotry & fighting? Could it be that it starts at home, & nothing to do with the school curriculum?

Everton have just scored....great RC team but Im sure ALL Liverpool will be ecstatic.
237

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 15:11:37
309
The Tin Man

Being an old soldier does not make this individual any less ill-informed and misguided. He fails to understand that the MSPs are not acting in a personal capacity when they attend remembrance ceremonies as MSPs. They are attending as part of their duties as an MSP.

You have demonstrated that you are simply intellectually incapable of comprehending this simple but significant distinction. I would hope that Dr Renouf might be a bit better equipped to understand if the issue was explained to him as it has been explained to you.
238

Fitba Krazy,

30/05/2009 15:13:29
313 Probably something to do with divide and conquer.

I am sure if we Scots were allowed to run our country by our "superiors" in London we could sort it out.

When was there secular schooling in Scotland?

100 years BC perhaps.
239

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 15:14:06
311
The Tin Man

"I support legitimate morality..."

What is moral about demanding that someone else pay money that you are due. You are a hypocrite as well as a fool.
240

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 15:24:01
313
jane shore

"Secular schooling throughout GB."

You are deplorably ill-informed. About one third of the schools in /England are faith schools. Most are CofE or Roman Catholic, but there are numerous Jewish, Muslim, Sikh and Hindu faith schools as well. The expansion of these faith schools was one of Tony Blair's pet policies. It is a policy which has exposed increasing numbers of children to the pernicious influence of religious fundamentalists of all kinds.
241

jane shore,

london 30/05/2009 15:24:34

Cu ceallach (318)...... Liverpool isnt dooun souf.

Your reference to Moss Side?

FitbaKrazy (316) you can run your own country when ever you like, try the ballot boxes. And hey, take your (superior) politicians back. Brown, Darling & Martin etc.
242

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 15:27:31
315
cu ceallach

And how many such "special arrangements" are there going to be for no better reason than pandering to the gutter press and the clamouring mob of Angry Villagers they lead by the nose?

There is already a functioning expenses system. Why not use it?
243

boudica,

Glasgow 30/05/2009 15:33:08
I have to laugh at the SNP supporters making out as if Labour supporters are standing by the cash Grabbing MPs ..It is those supporters who have made it very clear that they aint happy about any of it ..but it is the SNP who are supporting their cash grabbing MPs and MSPs ...because there are only a few SNP MPs it doesnt mean it is okay ..they are just as Greedy as the others so stop making excuses for them ...and please note it was because the labour supporters didnt support them in the Last Election that The Best paid Skivver and his mob got in .. or do you forget that fact ..Bahhhh ...Bahhh ...
244

Media at One,

30/05/2009 15:35:33
Remembrence day wreaths are a joke - If we all really cared and were all really focussed we would'nt be needing to lay wreaths each year - and all the hobknobbing that goes with it, the queen and the politicians who start wars all laying wreaths and pretending to care under the glow of the spotlight.
Let people who grieve do so, but dont cheapen the lives of their lost ones by allowing polticians and monarchy to lay wreaths as PR excercises.
245

jane shore,

30/05/2009 15:41:18

Electric Hermit...319 ......My apologies wrong wording, should have been single faith schooling,... My point was, that single faith schools in rest of GB do not seem to cause the same problems that Scotland & N.I. have with sectarian bigotry, I was suggesting that the problems cannot be blamed on schooling but may be caused by home influences.....or perhaps a Scottish pugnacious character (to put it mildly).



246

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 15:45:42
324
jane shore

"...or perhaps a Scottish pugnacious character (to put it mildly)."

A good example of the kind of facile stereotype that xenophobes and racists rely on.
247

Pavla,

Irvine 30/05/2009 15:46:09
Quite sure if this only involved Labour msps then it would be totally ignored and I see that the layout of the article seems to attract attention to the SNP.Strange again they ignore Labour MPs embroiled in the expenses scandal with the latest Brian Donohoe in Ayrshire claiming for 3 yes!! 3 sofas for his first residence in Irvine which when refused was resubmitted with his London address and hey presto approved by the fees office.He also claimed for refurbishment of the London flat which he then sold a few months later for substantial profit but he stated when questioned that when he claimed the cash for the flat he didn't intend selling it at the time.
248

TWC,

exLabour 30/05/2009 15:48:40
137 Grahamski
Vaz spent 600 on a cushion
249

Fitba Krazy,

30/05/2009 15:59:19
Jane Shore, We shall try the ballot box soon enough whilst bearing in mind there are some British types who are prone to rigging said ballot boxes.

Brown, Darling and Martin are pro-British, anti-Scottish and had their party not been voted in Dan Saff in Englandshire they would NOT have got into Government, would they have?
250

Fitba Krazy,

30/05/2009 16:05:35
327, "Vaz spent 600 on a cushion"

Must've been a whoopee cushion, not that they need that for effect.
251

jane shore,

london 30/05/2009 16:14:04

Very true FitbaKrazy, (328) ..... we did vote them in, would you have preferred Major et al?

Looks like you (& us) are going to get Cameron (fine Scots name) now.
252

Fitba Krazy,

30/05/2009 17:39:32
Jane,

Major? Nah. Maybe Hague or Howard would've been better than Blair and Broon, although I have certain doubts, maybe Frankie Howard, at least you know where you stand with the Tories, but in all honesty I'd prefer we Scots and you English ran our own affairs instead of the total botch-up we have suffered for generations as it obviously doesn't work. Labour and Conservative politicians have been too remote, some would say remote controlled by outside influences, and certainly appear more interested in using Scotland when it suits them than actually working on behalf of the people. I am just glad that we have a positive alternative and I would hope that the majority of Scots use their option to refresh the whole scenario, as it badly needs it, and vote for SNP, or another pro-Independence from Westminster party, and leave the Conservative and Labour parties out of the equation altogether as they have, between them, blown it big time.
253

Benjimin,

30/05/2009 18:11:07
Quote from this Scotsman article:
"MPs have been banned from claiming the cost of Remembrance Day wreaths since 2004."

Quote from Scotsman article on 11 May:
"It also emerged that David Mundell, the shadow Scottish Secretary, claimed for a Remembrance Day wreath, along with his colleague, the Tory MP James Gray.

"Mr Mundell was unapologetic, however. 'I now do fourRemembrance Sunday wreaths for which I pay £30 each," he said. "I'm a very, very strong supporter of the armed services. One thing I am not is some kind of cheapskate – I'm a very strong supporter of the Royal British Legion and a reasonable donor"'

High-quality consistency from the Scotsman once again.
254

Iainbroch,

30/05/2009 19:15:20
Comiserations Grakamski! We feel your pain! We understand we really do1

So how does it feel to be mugged by Brit Nationalists in Glasgow.
255

The new waspy,

30/05/2009 20:26:42
Tight fisted shower.
problem is who is worst??
256

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

30/05/2009 20:52:38
#336 Rab The Ranter™

Do you buy a wreath every year and place it at your local War Memorial...No?

Me neither...Nor do 99.9% of the population.

We have MP's, MSP's, Councillors and the like do it on our behalf.

It is only fair that we pay our fair share of the costs.
257

The new waspy,

30/05/2009 20:57:03
#338
What saddens me is that the honest ones will be tarred with the same brush
258

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 21:04:13
339
The Col. of Monte Cristo

"What saddens me is that the honest ones will be tarred with the same brush"

You weren't so concerned with maintaining perspective when you agreed with the other mindless ranter.
259

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 21:05:43
ERROR!

That last post should have been addressed to -

340
The new waspy

My apologies to The Col. of Monte Cristo.
260

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 21:10:33
339
The Col. of Monte Cristo

"It is only fair that we pay our fair share of the costs."

Exactly. And it is notable that a majority(?) of posters here have taken this sensible attitude. Only the brain-dead knee-jerkers can't understand the distinction between personal expenditure and work-related expenditure. The media has them trained like Pavlov's dogs.
261

The new waspy,

30/05/2009 21:25:35
#339
Most wreaths laid are paid for by the the local organisations they serve.

262

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 21:31:09
345
Yoon Yawn

"I was also told there are trawls on the Scotsman. Who are they all?"

The term is "troll". A troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion. (Wikipedia) You'll know them when you see them.
263

The new waspy,

30/05/2009 21:34:06
#341
Much better to insult somebody than put a point cross isn't it?
264

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

30/05/2009 21:34:47
#343 Electric Hermit

I find it hard to believe that these nutters are expressing a genuinely held opinion.

I suspect that they are what the venerable gentleman at #345, referred to as "Trawls" and difficult as it sometimes is...best ignored.
265

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 21:35:13
354
Yoon Yawn

I suspect you know rather more about "trawls" than you want us to believe.
266

The new waspy,

30/05/2009 21:36:17
#351
They were probably short on funds
267

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 21:37:58
356
The Col. of Monte Cristo

"I suspect that they are what the venerable gentleman at #345, referred to as "Trawls"..."

Possibly. But I have checked out a few other blogs and forums and there seems to be the clear division between those who understand the concept of work-related expenses and those for whom understanding is, itself, an alien concept.
268

GOODBYE LONDON LABOUR,

Aberdeen 30/05/2009 21:39:13
What a pathetic attempt by The Scotsman to divert attention from the Labour/Tory cesspit at Westminster. No wonder your circulation figures are in freefall.
London Labour and its Quisling Scots are in for the hiding of their lives next week.

SNP SNP SNP SNP SNP SNP SNP
269

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 21:41:27
359
Yoon Yawn

Don't confuse online posters with real people. The openness of the medium is both a blessing and a curse.
270

The new waspy,

30/05/2009 21:52:02
Electric
Is this your life trawling the web and forums with opinions that dont really matter much in the real world?
271

The new waspy,

30/05/2009 22:08:46
#363
My original log on was Waspy100.
after a few "discussions" on the football threads the scotsman blocked most of us so we all changed our user names and that is why I am the new waspy.
272

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 22:11:06
366
The new waspy

"Is this your life..."

Only a very small part of it.
273

Thistledhu,

30/05/2009 22:13:24
Fi fi la bon and Observer your comments are beneath contempt as are the actions of the Msp's claiming this money.

274

Electric Hermit,

30/05/2009 22:18:41
351
Thistledhu

Another unthinking knee-jerk response.
275

The new waspy,

30/05/2009 22:25:24
#350
Just a small part but very enjoyable sometimes.
Problem at my age not quite enough money to do the things I want so is a bit of a distraction from real life.
Roll on next year when I am 65 and the pensions kick in
276

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/05/2009 22:39:22
351 In no way are my comments beneath contempt. If I am agreeing with Fifi la bon bon, my arch nemesis on here, then our collective argument is almost certainly unanswerable. Otherwise we would be fighting about it.

277

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/05/2009 22:44:46
Yoon Yawn I don't believe a word. The best letters page is the Herald, the best political salon in Scotland. So who are you exactly ? Your given nom de plume means nothing to me - an afficianado of said salon. You're just making it up. What are your other monikers ?
278

FerryPort,

31/05/2009 00:01:18
Fifi yawn yawn

You said something disparaging about "people like me" earlier in this thread. Arragancia. Your tendancy to want to smack other posters around is reminesant of another bully type. You may poccess thatcherite inspirations? However, I won't hold this against you at all and be so arrogant myself

Observer, I really enjoy your posts, I like your impartiality plus your laid back approach to life. Thanks, here's to the truth and a better distribution of our wealth. Together.
279

mareseatoats,

Edinburgh 31/05/2009 00:13:53
Has anybody found out yet why Alec Salmond needed to claim £800.00 for food in the summer months when Westminster wasn't even sitting? If these people don't notice that Parliament is closed, or that they have paid off their mortgage,etc., etc., how can they be taken seriously!!!!!! Did somebody tell every new mp that they were to put their salary straight into a savings account and not touch it? It all beggars belief!!!!! Where in heavens name is civic responsibility, duty, ethical behaviour?
280

Electric Hermit,

31/05/2009 00:53:57
357
mareseatoats

"Where in heavens name is civic responsibility, duty, ethical behaviour?"

I'm sure you do your best.
281

Starance,

Ayrshire 31/05/2009 17:13:32

...criminals, and they are a disgrace. What next?

If anyone thinks we've seen it all, think again!
282

Azaelea,

London 31/05/2009 19:03:57
http://www.gopetition.co.uk/online/27778.html

Sign the petition and then vote for the MP that has cheated us the least or an Independent (who will truly represent the people). Get the crooks, starting with the pretender GB, who has stated categorically today that he will not stand down.

HM The Queen regards her role as one that represents/serves her subjects. Time for HM to listen to the people and dissolve Parliament before GB puts more crooks in place to oversee the changes to the Commons and HOL.
283

Fifi la Bonbon,

31/05/2009 23:42:26
Michty me. And hoots, mon, the noo och aye.

Arch-nemesis, indeed.

I still think the MSPs should stand up to the bullies.
284

suileandubh,

OZ 01/06/2009 04:08:24
Strewth. that's a whole lot of comments the Scotsman generated about such a stupid topic. If I was an MP either at Holyrood, Westminster or here down under, I woldn't be too happy about paying for a wreathe to represent others. They should be allowed to claim it as a business expense. stop trying to drag the SNP into the quagmire Westminster lives in. I think we'll find Holyrood is still 'clean' thanks to the different rules. if only we could leave England to its own devices full stop.
285

Ewan Oosami,

01/06/2009 18:31:53
#345 "I think everybody has gone to bed. I don't want to keep writing letters here and not get a response."
There's nothing you say that's even worthy of reading let alone responding to. Yawn? too bleedin' right, you talk a lot but say eff all. I think you must just like your name in print.
286

Thistledhu,

01/06/2009 22:12:08
Fifi la Bonbon/Observer

The laying of a wreath is a tribute if a mp/msp is laying a wreath on behalf of their political party the party should pay for it.

if they are laying it or haveing it laid by a personal representative they the mp /msp should pay for it not the taxpayer. if the mp/msp is not prepared to part with money in order to show there respect then simply dont turn up on Rememberance sunday and dont lay a wreath its that simple.

The wreaths are sold to RAISE funds for the care of veterens /widows and there familys to turn your back on this and expect the taxpayer to pick up the cost.

Politicians for years have Betrayed Servicemen throughout there lives now it seem's that Betrayal extends to when there dead this is Inexcusable.

It is deeply saddening to find people who find such disrespect acceptable.
lets not forget who provided and still provides the very freedoms the likes of Observer and Fifi la Bonbon now abuse with shallow moral indignance in order to defend shallow Politicians
.

 

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