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'No saltires, please – they could be racist'

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Published Date: 24 June 2009
PERSONALISING a desk is a common tactic for the office worker who faces eight hours in front of a computer terminal. Novelty mousemats, family photos and cuddly toys are popular.
But now one staff member at the National Library of Scotland has provoked a political row after he was ticked off by employers for decorating his desk with several Scottish flags.

The unnamed worker set up three large flags – two saltires and a lion rampant – at his shared work station. He also covered his chair in a red tartan.

The result was an e-mail to all staff warning that such nationalistic displays could "intimidate non-Scottish colleagues".

The e-mail, from Alexandra Miller, director of customer services, said: "I am very disappointed to see that (staff] continue to have inappropriate material bedecking their workstation. This includes several saltires and a lion rampant, and the personalisation of a chair with red tartan."

Ms Miller reminded employees of the policy of not having anything on desks which could be regarded as "sexist or racist".

The e-mail has prompted a wider debate about workplace etiquette and the politicisation of the saltire, with Nationalist MSP Christine Grahame lambasting a "completely unacceptable slur" against Scotland's national flag.

The MSP – who yesterday protested in front of the library in Edinburgh brandishing a large saltire – accused managers of a "deliberate assault" on the flag and of trying to "purge" it from view.

She said: "I would have thought that in the National Library of Scotland, they would have understood the place the saltire has in Scottish hearts as one of the oldest national symbols in existence."

Scottish Conservative leader Annabel Goldie blamed Alex Salmond, saying: "Incidents like this are happening because Alex has politicised the saltire. I warned him a year ago that the saltire was our national flag, not his Nationalist symbol."

Nadine Pierce, managing consultant for Edinburgh recruitment specialist Eden Scott, said: "Most people have personalised mugs. They are popular and seem to be fine, as are inherited soft toys, but I wouldn't think it would be the same with something like football colours. They reflect a lot more than football."

She said the etiquette on flags would depend on how big they were and where they were put.

Academic Peter Lynch, who wrote a history of nationalism in Scotland, said: "This tells you that some people are a bit uneasy about the saltire as a symbol, but I find it hard to see why. It is not like the union flag, which has connotations of Northern Ireland and the Democratic Unionist Party. The saltire doesn't come with that sort of baggage."

A National Library spokesman reacted angrily to the row, saying the saltire was in no way regarded as "racist" and had not been banned. He said: "This issue is about the excessive adornment of one individual's workplace.

"It was more like the home end at Hampden, with three or four large flags on it. It would not matter whether it was the union flag or the flag of St George – that is not a professional work station."

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 24 June 2009 12:48 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

,

23/06/2009 22:38:36
Comment Removed By Administrator
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2

Nevsky;,

Moscow 23/06/2009 23:02:10
1 Jerry*

Indeed thanks for pointing out Christine's record and what good work she is doing. Your record would read something like this:

1. Rufus would give all of Scotlands national symbols and history to London in thr National Museum.

2.Saltire banned in Scotland only the union flag and the St George's Cross allowed.

3.No Scots overseas or anyone of Scottish decent to be remembered in their own country.

4. Give Sir Fred a Lordship for his good work.

5. Bans any Scottish representation in sport.

Rufus' nirvana!
3

Jerry Springer,

23/06/2009 23:09:05
Nevsky, as was pointed out above by the National Library Spokesman, the fact that it was Scottish flags was immaterial.

It would have been the same for any flags.

So whats the problem?

The rules are the rules are the rules.

What on earth does it have to do with Christine 'AC/DC We Salute You' Grahame?
4

Fletty73,

Stirling 24/06/2009 00:16:30
Another unionist burning our flag.
By all means express your distaste for Scotland.
But why choose to live here if you hanker to belong to the country to our South?
5

ultravires,

Edinburgh 24/06/2009 00:25:03
I thought Christine Grahame was closely associated with the Tory(s) so why is she standing with the flag on her back ?

Also 1. you forgot to mention she went into jail to be seen with the cancer stricken Lockerbie Bomber but no cancer stricken constituents (amazingly)
6

Brianwci,

24/06/2009 00:31:21
# 1 thinks that by using the moniker of a totally insincere sheister like Jerry Sp.. somehow gives him credibiility.

Good God, even if he ever says anything remotely sensible he's on a loser straight away using that name.

But back to the real story. If this Miller woman thinks flags can be construed as racist she better not go to America where they are everywhere.

And as America has far more of a racial mix than Scotland then the 'problem' of flag causing racism should be huge...which it is not.

This is yet another attempt by British Nationalists to keep the Saltire down while parading their 'racist' union flag from the top of the so called national Library of Scotland.

What a farce. Thank goodness someone of Christine Graham's stature is willing to publicise this type of anti Scottish, pro British dangerous nonsense.

So: WHY DOES THE BRITISH NATIONALIST FLAG FLY FROM THE SCOTTISH NATIONAL LIBRARY?

IT HAS NO PLACE THERE.
7

tartangladbach,

edinburgh 24/06/2009 00:31:40
do people who post and change their name suffer from this? Schizophreniform, the disorder is characterized by the presence of criterion A symptoms of schizophrenia. These include: delusions, hallucinations, disorganized speech, disorganized or catatonic behavior, and negative symptoms. The disorder - including its prodromal, active, and residual phases - lasts longer than 1 month but less than 6 months.
although i think most london politicans suffer from this not just posters on here.
8

Fifi la Bonbon,

24/06/2009 00:33:52
It's praiseworthy that an institution such as our national library is able to employ someone with a short-term memory so apparently impaired that he requires to be constantly reminded that he is Scottish. I too am Scottish, but I am fully aware of the fact and I don't need to be reminded all the time.

Perhaps modern technology could assist here. Could he not be fitted with special spectacles that included a small LCD screen on which a moving image of a saltire or even a batch of them could be played, over and over? That way he could gaze lovingly at the panoply of flegs fluttering in the breeze, while as far as anyone else is aware he is getting on with the job of doing whatever it is that national librarians do.
9

ultravires,

Edinburgh 24/06/2009 00:37:23
7

Yes, your definition of a "Cybernat" is accepted.

8

We must also consider the possibility the entire incident was planned from the start, the details being leaked to the MSP in question, who then spun the story to the press and we have another bout of silliness SNP style with "Christine" in the driving seat.
10

Paul_in_Cali,

San Jose 24/06/2009 00:37:42
It goes back and forth... there are those who are Nationalist, and those who are not. Flying the flag of the land, in that land is not and should not become an issue. I'm Scottish born and raised, but live over here in the US, where the US flag is virtually everywhere. This place is as much a melting pot as Scotland now, and freedom of expression is encouraged everywhere... Unless you're a racist ghit, in which case you can [BLEEP] off! I'm not a fan of people like that... they really annoy me. Anyway, long story shirt; Freedom of Expression: If you don't like it; don;t look at it... and don't tell someone in their own country they can't show their national colours, it's just plain [BLEEP]ing rude.
Then end.
11

PES,

London 24/06/2009 00:42:37
Ha HA Ha.
You could not make this up.
This is one of you top stories.
Why?
12

Huntly loon,

24/06/2009 01:04:46
Should someone who is intimidated by Scottish imagery, really be working in the National Library of Scotland, as I would imagine it would be a constant hazard of their job to come into contact with Scottish items.

Perhaps such sensitive creatures have led too sheltered a life among all those books and manuscripts to face an illustration of a St Andrews Cross.

I have often wondered who would choose a career as a librarian. The real world must be such a scary place for them.
13

,

24/06/2009 01:04:50
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14

Fletty73,

Stirling 24/06/2009 01:14:11
Eck's desktop may well be a big steak bake.
But Gordon Brown's desktop is three lions.
And Jim Murphy's desktop has a special icon to quickly flip his home expenses.

15

,

24/06/2009 01:18:56
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16

A Scott,

Glasgow 24/06/2009 01:20:28
#13 Sorry Suzanne (stupid Name ) AKA Fifi La Bon bon (stupid name) AKA Amanda Huginkiss ( another stupid name)
How do you know that the flags were too large ? And with regards to the Diary 11 Labour MP,s plus Oily Jim (twice) have claimed for food outwidth the sitting Westminster Parly .But of course you dont see that in the "Scottish" media or BBC "Scotland"
17

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 24/06/2009 01:20:45
- Where is Electric Hermit and his prattling ?

THIS is a great example of double 'racist' standards at play - and this is one of the straws that breaks the camels back and has made people think they have no alternative than to vote BNP ! If somebody flew a Somalian flag at their workplace I'd bet my bottom dollar they probably wouldn't even have the balls to tell them to take it down !

HOW can flying your own countries flag be racist ? It is a bit like saying wearing underpants is racist .... there is no connection between being proud of your country and racism.

Racism, equality and discrimination are now ALL profit making 'industries'. There is money to be made out of 'stirring' things up and making things appear worse than they are - the industries now employ tens of thousands of people through out the UK.

To me this is just another jobs for the boys scheme by a disgusting Labour party that wishes to create division in society by taking the proverbial sledgehammer to crack a hazelnut! If all the racial, equality, and discrimination commissions, committees, associations, quangos, and authorities disappeared tomorrow I doubt very much if any one would notice the difference !
18

Fifi la Bonbon,

24/06/2009 01:23:01
I bet Common Purpose are behind this outrage.
19

Julian.,

edinburgh 24/06/2009 01:23:05
#13, #1,

Yes, all very well, but why after criticising the person in question does she go on to remind them that there should be nothing racist or sexist?

At best this is a grossly inappropriate remark in the context and at worst it's a hint that the guy was being racist towards his English colleagues.
20

,

24/06/2009 01:26:31
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21

Jo Flo,

teeth done 24/06/2009 01:31:46
edjits all
22

Finlang,

Hong Kong 24/06/2009 01:48:22
#17 SS

The displaying of flags indoors is commonplace in some countries, most notably the USA. In its schools the flag is saluted. Indoors. Are you saying the US is "trying to wind someone up" in its multi-ethnic classrooms?

As #17 Voldemort points out, the racism, equality and discrimination 'industries' all have a part to play in this nonsense.

Why would displaying the Scottish flag in Scotland in any way be deemed "racist" or "discriminatory"? I cite #17 again.

As for Annabel Goldie's prattling: "Incidents like this are happening because Alex [Salmond] has politicised the saltire. I warned him a year ago that the saltire was our national flag, not his Nationalist symbol."

Get a grip, Goldielocks. The flag is the property of every Scottish person, and every domiciled taxpaying person in Scotland, irrespective of party politics. What a childish argument.






23

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 24/06/2009 01:50:11
20:- nope sorry I don't see your point at all ! Flying the Saltire flag anywhere in this country at any time in any quantity may be considered idiotic but never racist ... !

And yes it is about 'flying flags' the 'important distinctions' you refer to are nothing more than vile PC claptrap I'm afraid.

Alot of people are waking up now and seeing that there are now disgusting, sell out, PC people in this country who want to 'dull down' national identity for their own political ends rather than for the good of the country and the good of the people who have invested their lives and paid their taxes here.
24

,

24/06/2009 01:50:25
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25

Jock Scot,

East Lothian 24/06/2009 01:51:09

This employee should be reprimanded for showing a complete lack of taste! Perhaps a career selling Tartan Tat for the Gold Bros would be more rewarding. The article fails to mention whether colleges are being further disrupted by the sound of Jimmy Shand emanating from his MP3 player.


26

Finlang,

Hong Kong 24/06/2009 01:51:12
Oops ... intro to #22 above should read #20 SS
27

,

24/06/2009 01:51:55
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28

Voldemort,

Edinbugh 24/06/2009 01:55:31
27:-

And do you think that avoiding the issue helps your argument ?!
29

Finlang,

Hong Kong 24/06/2009 01:56:43
#24

"You failed to address the issue of size."

What ...?! Where is there an issue of size in this? And if there was, would it be a matter of importance?

30

Canada,

Canada 24/06/2009 02:00:51
The high priced help who issue this nonsense should find a real job. Nothing better to do, it's time the lady was fired. She is obviously a pc non producer. Scotland: get a grip on your pride and your sanity.
31

Jimmy Fae the West,

Hull 24/06/2009 02:02:42
Scottish Conservative leader Annabel Goldie blamed Alex Salmond".

We had no idea he worked there.
32

Finlang,

Hong Kong 24/06/2009 02:06:08
Thinks ... This was the National Library of Scotland, not the National Library of Anywhere-Else. Why do some in charge of Scots institutions still act as if they are paid lackeys of Somewhere-Else? Shame on them.
33

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 24/06/2009 02:10:13
Off to Tiree tomorrow - got to get some shut eye.

Tonight I will probably have a disturbing dream of Sorry Suzanne's and Electric Hermit's Britain/Scotland where everybody who lives here is only allowed to fly the white flag of surrender whilst they get shafted by a political system hell bent on the financial rape and criminalisation of the indigenous people in order to make way - well for anyone who fancies some free money, a house, free nhs and education ... don't worry we'll foot the bill !!

Hopefully I will wake up and find we have some politicians with 'balls' who will put a stop to the sell out !!
34

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 24/06/2009 02:12:30
30 and 32 very well said .... it is more than high time we put the PC brigade firmly back in their 'waste of space' place !
35

Bret,

Aberdeen 24/06/2009 02:37:06
"...the saltire may OFFEND no Scottish workers...."
Whose country is it anyway?
I am so Pi**ed about this report!
36

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 24/06/2009 02:48:09



You would never find an 'Eco Party' Member, behaving in this peculiar behaviour!




37

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 24/06/2009 02:51:20


"Peculiar"

adj


1. strange or odd, a peculiar idea,

2. distinct or special,

3. (foll. by: to) belonging exclusively (to) a fish peculiar to these waters,
Latin peculiaris concerning private property.




38

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 24/06/2009 02:55:39

'Assessed', but not treated, by our commentators, such a shame.

39

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 24/06/2009 03:00:27



Ones 'Mental-Health', is an important issue, is it not?


40

Liber Respublica de Scotia,

24/06/2009 03:00:45
On this most hallowed day, the six-hundred and ninety-fifth Anniversary of our GLORIOUS VICTORY at The Burn o' Bannock, what a bloody disgrace for any organisation or individual to censure the display of our treasured saltire and banner.


There is not a Scot among them, and they should be eternally ashamed, not of their nation, but of themselves. What is Mr Salmond doing about this?
41

Finlang,

Hong Kong 24/06/2009 03:06:59
"... an e-mail to all staff warning that such nationalistic displays could "intimidate non-Scottish colleagues."

This is PC claptrap at its most stupid and naïve. We hear this bleak stuff trotted out day after day. I've lived and worked in the US, Switzerland and China - to name but three - where national (and in the case of the cuckoo-clockmaking one, also regional) flags are in your face big time. So what? It's their prerogative, and a sign of citizens' pride, beyond the remit of political parties. They represent a shared identity. In a word: Pride. Something which obviously escaped the PC harpie at the National Library of Scotland.

I have absolutely no objection to a country and/or its regions asserting itself via flag displays. This damned PC industry and the fools responsible for promoting it in Scotland (and England and elsewhere) have some answering to account for. They purport to speak on behalf of downtrodden minorities, when in fact they are only prolonging the prospect of their own well-paid occupations. There are too many in Scotland who seem to be deeply ashamed to admit their Scottishness, and meekly bow before whatever the PC flavour of the day is. Damn them.

They are a laughing stock among, and a disgrace to, the indigenous population, and a golden handout to the less scrupulous from elsewhere who hang onto their grubby coat-tails. Why the hell is this nonsense still alive and kicking in the year 2009? Maybe a change of government in 2010 will result in a rethink of this, but I wouldn't bet on it. Time for people to make their opinions known.
42

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 24/06/2009 03:08:48


#41 ~Liber Respublica de Scotia,

You ask a silly Question, do you not?,

"What is Mr Salmond doing about this?"

His Answer to everything is, NOT_to_be_Seen!, and go into the comfort of hiding, as He did on our Banks fiasco, and the 'swine-flu'!

Far more His Importance, of hiding the cigarette's under the counter!

43

Julian.,

edinburgh 24/06/2009 03:26:28
#41, #43.

For God's sake leave Salmond out of this. The last thing we need here is for him to step in and use one woman's silly e-mail as nationalist propoganda.

The common sense solution here is surely for the guy to tone down his display a bit and then, if he is harrassed further, take it up with his union or take it to whatever tribunal deals with these things.
44

,

24/06/2009 03:29:07
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45

Liber Respublica de Scotia,

24/06/2009 03:42:34
Charles and Julian,
I voted for Mr Salmond and the SNP because they are the only influential nationalist party that we have, and because I was of the belief that they have Scotland's national interests closer to heart than any of the other politicians in our land.

I will admit, however, that I would like to see, (perhaps even form), a party with a resolutely nationalist rationale that espouses a more centrist stance on policy, but I would have expected Mr Salmond to have been quite moved by such an egregious affront to our national icon, the saltire.
46

Castaway™ ,

24/06/2009 03:50:37
#44:Julian, I agree. Martyn Wade, the national librarian and chief executive of NLS, said it did not, and would not, "ban" staff from displaying the Saltire in the workplace.
He added: "We merely asked a single individual to remove what we considered to be an excessive display of large flags from a desk in a shared, professional work area, and we would have done so regardless of what the flag was or indeed any other adornment.
Which is a fair comment by Martyn Wade.
There are other options could be:-
An approved size of Scottish Flag.
Mugs - with the Scottish Flag.
Family photos - with a member holding a Scottish Flag.
Mouse mats - having a Scottish Flag.
Cuddly toy - holding a Scottish Flag.
Calendars - showing the Scottish Flag.
47

,

24/06/2009 04:00:33
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48

Liber Respublica de Scotia,

24/06/2009 04:06:17
Sorry Suzanne,
Is there anything offensive about our saltire that I, and other proud, self-respecting Scots, fail to recognise? It might be offensive to our southern neighbours, but since they like to fervently undulate the defaced version of our flag, (the Union Jack a.k.a. Butcher's Apron), and expect us to subserviently follow suit, they must have some affinity towards it.


After all, the English always have wanted everything that is rightfully Scotland's, and to my dismay, there has never been any shortage of Scots who have been willing to obsequiously hand it to them.
49

Finlang,

Hong Kong 24/06/2009 04:16:16
#48 Smith, Middle Earth

More of the tedious same from you ... Don't you think most posters get peed off reading your tiresome diatribes against your pet hates, Salmond and the SNP?

This article has bog-all to do with either, as do most other threads you rant on. I am Scottish, not an SNP supporter or a supporter of any other political party. I am however an all-time supporter of my home country of Scotland, so you can't pigeon-hole me as you invariably do with others whose viewpoints are less skewed than yours.

Your vile and vapid comments are well-known on these threads. They serve only to show you for what you are. Others may fill in the blanks if they please.




50

Finlang,

Hong Kong 24/06/2009 04:22:24
#49 Liber

You're wasting your time nodding to SS. He, disguised as She (what does that tell you?,)is the poster formerly known as BTO, and god-knows what else, who plagued the Sports threads. One-liner Witless-Willie.
51

Phillip,

24/06/2009 04:34:10
This is obviously about it being the Saltire that was on display and not simply about the number or size of the flags. If the manager was just disturbed by the size or number of flags, then there would have been no reference to racism in the memo. However, by claiming the display to be racist, the manager was obviously concerned not with flags in general but with the Saltire in particular.

It's the National Library of SCOTLAND not the National Library of the United Kingdom or of England. What else should be displayed there if not the Saltire?

If the manager has a problem with Scottish Pride then perhaps that manager should go work somewhere in England where only Union flags are displayed.

Considering the racist attitudes of the English and Unionists towards all things Scottish, the attempt to prohibit the Saltire should be considered the racist act and should be prosecuted under the Race Relations Act.
52

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 24/06/2009 04:43:34
Beware of people who wrap themselves in the flag!
53

W Smith,

Middle East 24/06/2009 04:53:36
I see we have a terrorist holed up in a Glasgow flat.

Not an issue with the politial party that likes to waffle on and on about the following:

1) Trident
2) Berwick upon Tweed
3) Trident
4) tropical fish
5) James McFaddens goal against France.
6) Trident
7) Celtic's Holy goalie
8) Trident
9) The bones of Mary Queen of Scots being returnded to Scotland.
10) Trident
11) "Strength of feeling" in Scotland for the Palestininas.
12) Trident.
13) Adorning your work station with flags like it was your bedroom.
14) Trident.

Christine Grahame should consider herself lucky to be in employment.

There are more talented Scots looking for work at the moment while her beloved SNP get bogged down in more and more nonsense.

54

Julian.,

edinburgh 24/06/2009 04:55:20
Castaway,

I think the problem here is the reference to racism in the e-mail. It's that one stupid remark by Alexandra Millar which could be seized upon by the likes of Salmond to further his nationalist cause. She should immediately clarify that the racist remark had nothing to do with the flag. Then he should tone down his flag display.

And then all the nationalists can stop foaming at the mouth.
55

,

24/06/2009 04:57:19
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56

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 24/06/2009 05:08:17
If I was the person who earned the reprimand from Alexandra Miller, I would turn up for work everyday dressed in a kilt just to wind her up.

To think that a little tin pot fascist like Ms. Miller gets paid by Scottish Taxpayers, doesn't she have more to do improving customer service.


57

Liber Respublica de Scotia,

(formerly MacAlba: The Coming Independence c.2007. 24/06/2009 05:15:39
Phillip,
You are absolutely correct. But, Heaven forbid that we should offend our commanding southern masters.
58

Liber Respublica de Scotia,

24/06/2009 05:18:45
Finlang,
Thankyou for the tip! It has been some time since I've had the pleasure of frequenting this forum! What cognomen does the notorious AM2 operate under these days?
59

on holiday in Scotland,

Bad Marienberg 24/06/2009 05:19:25
Haven't people got other problems these days?

#25 - Jimmy Shand sr or jr ? :-)
60

tartangladbach,

edinburgh 24/06/2009 05:23:58
9 ?(add prefered alais at this point) if nationalits are "cybernats" what are unioinists? to me? they are no more than rats that run in the maze that is the union.
61

Waus,

Rockingham 24/06/2009 05:56:01
Lets get back to the root problem, this so called politically correct Alexander dick head Miller want to impose restrictions on what you can& cant have on your office desk is this the kind of rubbish the British worker has to put up with it could be the time to chop some P.C. heads & get back to reality!?
62

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 24/06/2009 05:58:29
W Smith,Middle East 24/06/2009 04:00:33

States:-

"Aye its 'normal' if you are a complete ignorHamish fanatic who thinks the sun shines out Salmonds a**e and you hate the English and want to eat shortbread all day and rant about 'perfidious albion'."

... and Smith says that someone else is "not the full shilling."

Gentlemen of the jury! I rest my case.

63

Lanna,

24/06/2009 06:07:26
...displaying a Saltire in Scotland is racist? Let alone in the National Library of SCOTLAND? What, they were concerned with offending or intimidating any non-Scottish workers who've chosen to work in Scotland??
Unbelievable.

#57 Love it. Hope he does just that.
....and hopefully, there's no mis-interpretation of a "Dresscode"....
64

,

24/06/2009 06:22:33
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65

beentheredonethat,

usa 24/06/2009 06:37:16
STUPID! STUPID! STUPID!

People who move to a country not of their origin need to get over it. There is nothing racist about flying the Scottish Saltire or the Rampant Lion. Why is it that the person who moves into an area or a country has more say than the ones who have lived there forever?

If you chose to leave your native land be prepared to see the people of your new land being loyal to their country. DUH!!! If you don't like it, go back home.

On a much smaller scale I live in a very small town. People from the bigger cities move in cause it's so pretty and away from the "rat race" of the city. But what do they do first thing, start complaining cause things aren't ran like in the city. Then go back to the city.

In these cases Assimilation is a good thing. The Borg had something going for them in Star Trek.

Like a friend said "How can it be "common" sense when not many people have it?"
66

beentheredonethat,

24/06/2009 06:38:38
Oh #65, I've always heard "A clean desk is a sign of a sick mind".
67

,

24/06/2009 06:46:42
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68

Beverly,

Arcadia 24/06/2009 06:49:12
1. Farewell to all our Scottish fame
Farewell our ancient glory
Farewell even to our Scottish name
So famed in martial story
Now Sark runs to the Solway sands
And Tweed runs to the Ocean.
To mark where England's province stands--
Suc a parcel of rogues in a nation

2. What force or guile could not subdue
Through many warlike ages
Is wrought now by a coward few
For hireling traitors' wages.
The English steel we could disdain
Secure in valour stationed.
But English gold has been our bane--
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation.

3. I would, ere I had seen the day
When treason thus could sell us
My auld grey head had lain in clay
With Bruce and loyal Wallace.
But faith and power, ‘till my last hour,
I’ll make this declaration:
We were bought and sold for English gold--
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

What would Robert the Bruce say to all this? Or William Wallace? What did they fight for, anyway, if the Scots can no longer be proud Scots in their own land?

When will you rise up and smite them?
69

,

24/06/2009 06:50:25
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70

Alan, New Zealand,

Leeds 24/06/2009 06:54:12
I wonder If Ms Miller is hiding any contentious Scottish Books in the vaults? Given her anathema to the Saltire I think an investigation should take place.
Memo to Ms Miller: do not visit The USA, New Zealnad , Australia or most other independent countries in the world where the flying of their national flag is done with pride. England excepted, where Political Cowardice rules(from the PC brigade), they have been trying to ban the flying of the ST George's Flag.
71

wayne bijlyeerheid,

24/06/2009 06:55:01
How come flying or displaying Irish tricolours isn't racist?
Oh, of course, you'd have to prosecute the WOS Labour Party.

There's other no reason for it in many areas of WoS but as a "stay out" sign.
72

Boy Wonder,

24/06/2009 06:56:00
If flying your own national flag (and I am not a fan of the Saltire, being a religious symbol) is racist, what does that say about our Septic cousins, who are known to wrap themselves in "Old Glory"??
Indeed, look at the the modern nations that are younger than Scotland ... they personalised their flags in many ways, long before we Scots picked up on it.
Even the Nats didn't go that far ... and as for Hannabel, her lot co-opted the Butcher's Apron long before the Nats came into existence as a party.

Ms Miller "needs a word with herself!"

We're Scots first, last and always. Just ask the English who treat us as Brits when we're winning something ... and Scots when we're losing!
73

Beverly,

Arcadia 24/06/2009 06:57:48
The transnational Left, the same crowd who denied Britons a chance to vote on the EU/Lisbon treaty, are the ones who promote this nonsense, that proper love of one's country is "racist." The same crowd who don't want anyone to notice that Muslim terrorists are, well, Muslim. (A religion, not a race, by the way.) The same people who condemn the West, but never other cultures, for using force to defend ourselves. The same people who want all of us to be living on the government dole, serfs to the transnational Leftist bureaucrats -- who of course know what's good for us Ever so much better than we ignorant peasants do! and by jingo they'll shove it down our throats, whether we like it or not.

"Racist." It's their all-purpose slur for anyone who disagrees with them. It's also their fallback position whenever they sense they're losing an argument.
74

Jerry Springer,

24/06/2009 06:59:20
#70 Casey, does your caps lock have a mind of its own?
75

sawney hasbeen,

A customized desktop behind the lines! 24/06/2009 07:11:06
I am delighted she brings up the issue of weapons of mass destruction on our doorstep and oppressive behaviour. Well done Christine! (Maybe forget the bones though darlin'!)
76

Jerry Springer,

24/06/2009 07:11:17
The real disgrace here is Christine Grahame who once again is wasting taxpayers money on ridiculous political posturing.

If Salmond does not have the guts to sack her then his weak leadership will come under even further scrutiny.

He acts like the big bully boy in the Scottish Parliament, shouting at all the opposition leaders.

When it comes to his own party however, the SNP MSPs can waste taxpayers money on whatever wheeze they so wish and Salmond is too weak to do anything about it.
77

Media at One,

24/06/2009 07:16:45
Why is it racist to be patriotic?
Of course racism has nothing to do with this story and the people who are attempting to turn it into a race issue are dispicable monsters of the very worst kind and a serious threat to humanity.
I am not so sure that anyone should be dressing their work station to such a degree, but if a person puts up pictures of Elvis and wears their collar up and whisltes blue suede shoes do we accuse him of being a beatles racist?
78

Darien,

Panama 24/06/2009 07:16:59
Annabel Goldie 'warned' (sic) the FM that "...the saltire was our national flag".

If only some Scots practiced what they preached, eh Annabel!

And if the saltire is our national flag, what is the union jack? Or do we have two 'national' flags? Somehow I don't think we will see Annabel going around in Scotland waving a union jack.

In any event, at the moment Scotland is in fact only a pseudo-nation (nation tests - is it recognised as a nation by other nations and can its citizens enjoy its nationality? (er, no).

The Unionists (aka British nationalists) are forever confused with their convenient but deluded non-existent dual-nationality theory which does not stand up in practice.

British Unionism actually means that Scotland does not and will not exist as a nation. In fact, the British 'nation' (sic) depends on Scotland not existing as a nation.

Scots-Unionists like Annabel actually prevent Scotland from being a nation. So she is not being very sincere saying on the one hand that the saltire is our national flag, whilst at the same time actively preventing Scotland from being a nation. Perfidious Albion.

79

John S,

24/06/2009 07:19:45
Did Alexandra Miller, director of customer services overreact ?

National Librarian Martyn Wade "The library did not - and would not - ban staff from displaying the Saltire in the workplace".
Just the size and how many is the question ?

Alexandra Miller, even went round offices herself removing flags and other items which she ruled “offensive”. So it was her own decision to rule the flags “offensive”

Ms Miller reminded employees of the policy of not having anything on desks which could be regarded as "sexist or racist" did she really mean that saltires and a lion rampant, the personalisation of a chair with red tartan." are "sexist or racist" ? did she get them removed on the grounds that they were "sexist or racist" ?

The chap probably went over the score with his workplace display but why didn't Alexandra Miller talk or get someone to talk to the chap and explain why his display was not appropriate and offer a remedy ?
80

Russell M,

Stirling 24/06/2009 07:31:51
If Alexandra Miller, director of customer services, National Library of Scotland thinks the Saltire is racist maybe she's seen "Blood in the Face." It is a 1991 documentary film regarding white supremacy groups in the United States, directed by Anne Bohlen, Kevin Rafferty and James Ridgeway.
81

Phil C,

24/06/2009 07:35:41
Nobody's banned the saltire. This is about an unnamed worker's slightly misplaced show of patriotism. I'm sure the same might happen if St George's crosses were emblazoned over the shared work space of an english worker in London.

It's really a non-story which the Scotsman, and no doubt other media, will blow up as an example of the danger of Scotttish Nationalism. The saltire is the national flag. Therefore it is a nationalist symbol.

Grow up the National Library, Annabel Goldie, Christine Grahame, the Scotsman, ......and the unnamed worker!
82

dunedin bully wee 1877,

24/06/2009 07:36:10
“It was more like the home end at Hampden, with three or four large flags on it”.

This spokesman has obviously never been to a Scotland game at Hampden.

There is no “home end” as such, although visiting supporters are located in a corner of the Mount Florida end and in an area of the main stand.

It is not clear from this article just how large these flags actually are, and if they were those wee ones which come with little sticks I cannot see what the objection would be.

As far as the tartan covered chair is concerned, this sounds to me to be quite innovative and perfectly appropriate in Scotland’s National Library.

It may even lead to prolonging the life of the chair concerned, thereby helping to save us all money.

83

Jaebee,

Peebles 24/06/2009 07:37:16
Only thing about this idiotic story I am surprised about is that the reason has not been put down to the HSE, the reason most stupid dictates from overpaid managers who have nothing better to do give as their raison d'etre.
84

Nevsky;,

Moscow 24/06/2009 07:47:24
86 Fed*

'If only our history was better taught SNP would not exist'

What a riduculous thing to say? If our history had been taught properly the union would not exist.

Do also enlighten me as to what the 'British' race is?
85

James,

Dundee 24/06/2009 07:54:35
'W Smith,Middle East'

You deserve each other.
86

viking nz,

newzealand 24/06/2009 07:55:00
ENGARLAND WON THE WAR .
87

James,

Dundee 24/06/2009 07:57:54
86

There is only one race. The Human race.

There are many nationalities, and nations.

Excuse us Scots, while we get ours back, thank you.
88

viking nz,

NEWZEALAND 24/06/2009 07:58:37
GUESS i,d better take down my rampant lion off my toolbox at work also my celtic calendar . and my rabbie burns book . just watched spike milligan in curry and chips boy did I laugh my talls off .
89

Pavla,

Irvine 24/06/2009 08:04:40
So let me get this while in the forces the first thing we did was to put the saltire on our kit and vehicles with no problem from the heid high yins but it can't be flown or other mementoes displayed in the National Library of Scotland.Very often the saltire defused difficult situations with local people as the Union flag was seen as provocative to them and symbolised colonial rule.
90

Andrew Morton,

Berkshire 24/06/2009 08:05:00
I like all the home countries national flags (obviously I have a bias to my own however).

That said, I wouldn't adorn my work place with them as I think it's a little distaseful, but that's only my opinion.

However, to call it a "racist" act is just pure rubbish and that accuser needs to retract the statement, publically.
91

john z,

edinburgh 24/06/2009 08:05:07
Go to Sweden, you will see the flag everywhere. Go to Italy you will see the flag everywhere, go to ireland you will see the flag everywhere.

Only in Scotland would an employer describe their very won national flag as racist. Scots are proud, and that pride unites Scotland. But maybe that is what the little brits don't like.
92

Phil C,

24/06/2009 08:05:20
Sorry to be a bore, but can the Scotsman not concentrate on:

why Labour have caused so many businesses to crash, how people survive after losing their livlihoods,
why men are still being killed in an illegal war,
why huge sums of money are being spent on renewing our nuclear warmongering machines,
why Scotland's school standards have been declining for years,
how a dumpling of a Chancellor became PM,
why that PM and his crooked cronies are riding roughshod over democracy,
why the national interest was ignored and the clear need for a general election ignored,
why we'll be paying for new hospitals for decades to come,
what possesses people to vote Labour to the detriment to themselves and their friends,
why so many people have lost their homes,
why Scotland can't use the proceeds of it's natural resources,
why vast sums of money are still being paid to fat cats,
why vaster sums of our money were paid to banks and are not being loaned back to the people.......

There are a lot more questions to be answered, rather than tartan on a chair and a few saltires.
93

Brideun,

Culloden 24/06/2009 08:13:24
I don't think that anyone objects to a couple of wee flags on a desk but do when a nutter wraps himself,his desk and his chair in pseudo patriotism. Obviously an exhibitionist and $h*t stirrer.
94

Grahamski,

Falkirk 24/06/2009 08:16:59
Who cares? Some nutjob brings into his workplace big flags and a tartan cover for his seat, his bosses tell him to screw the nut and suddenly it's 'they're' trying to ban our saltire!
Dear god these nats have a taste for persecution...
95

Keir Hardie,

Inverness 24/06/2009 08:21:22
I'm Scottish and I don't like any flags. I think they're backward, like patriotism itself.
96

Andrew Morton,

Berkshire 24/06/2009 08:24:58
100

Take it you won't be attending the London Olympics, Glasgow Commonwealth games, International Piping competition, The Fringe Festival, any tourist spot or any other even whereby many nationalities come together and identify themselves by way of thier national flag?

What a sad narrow World you must live in.
97

The Tin Man,

24/06/2009 08:25:32
#101 Year Zero

...Possibly because the person involved sounds like a complete lunatic?
98

Sgian Dubh,

24/06/2009 08:26:14
I have just e-mailed Ms Miller's boss, Martyn Wade, to send her over here to Northern Ireland to have her sort out the Loyalist/Unionists and have their Racist/Sectarian/Bigoted Union and Ulster flags removed from dam near every lamp-post in my town of Bangor. And to have the huge bonfires, filled with tyres, torn down.

I wander how long she'd last.

99

The Tin Man,

24/06/2009 08:26:45
...Meanwhile.... back to the 'Dog Shoots Man' story...
100

Lianachan,

Highlands 24/06/2009 08:27:18
Most strange that the saltire could be considered as potentially offensive to non-Scots, and even racist, but the Butchers Apron can be freely displayed all over the Highlands & Islands despite the attrocities commited against the populace of those regions in its name.
101

The Tin Man,

24/06/2009 08:29:59
...Worryingly, it appears that lots of Hootsrag posters have painted their houses tartanium, and wear saltire sari's. Especially in the office...
102

brianmca3,

auld reekie 24/06/2009 08:30:22
how ironic that this story broke,when today in 1314 24th june(monday)the armies of Robert The Bruce,defeated Edwards army at Bannockburn,thus establishing Scotlands independance
Was this some PC jobs worth trying to climb the ladder?,in America,every factory has their national flag outside,i wonder what they would say or do,if told take it away
It was deemed to be nationalistic displays could "intimidate non-Scottish colleagues".
so in the seat of the scottish parli,capitol of scotland,its now deemed un PC to fly ones flag,i bet if a scot/welsh/irish or whatever,complained in england about a st georges cross,they would be laughed at
Labour has sucked the pride out of our nation,with stupidity such as this
103

Lianachan,

Highlands 24/06/2009 08:32:35
#86 I suggest you study the history and development of the various peoples of the British Isles a little more closely. The period of about 200BC to 800AD should prove particularly enlightening for you.
104

James Dow,

Voluntari 24/06/2009 08:33:06
No Scot needs the SNP or any other organisation to approve or give permission for the flying or display of the Saltire. It is more than a symbol; it is the Scots Standard and as such it is the right of every Scot to fly or display that Standard wherever in the land of the Scots he or she so desires. Ms Miller is totally out of order in respect of her reference to the Saltire and as such she should at least make a public apology. As for the sovereign's standard, the Lion Rampant,that should only be flown with the permission of the sovereign. As much as we love it just that wee bit less than the Saltire the right to fly the stand-up-and roar standard of our nation is not a right Scots, other than the King or Queen of Scots, can claim. As for the tartan cover well it could be classified as racist if it were a Campbell tartan in an office full of MacDonalds. All in all Ms Miller has overstepped her position and should be asked to make amends or resign.
105

Gdgy,

24/06/2009 08:33:07
This employee is clearly a nutjob,,,that he choose tartan and the saltire to epxress his "uniqueness" is irrlevant.....
106

brianmca3,

auld reekie 24/06/2009 08:33:22
#100 its rufus with a new name tag
107

The Tin Man,

24/06/2009 08:34:35
#108 Year Zero

Some people like displaying large flags. I prefer burning them. However, this would present HSE issues in the library, but at least I would be expressing myself. Viva la revolucion!
108

Grahamski,

Falkirk 24/06/2009 08:35:46
102
"If I want to fly my own country's flag in my own country, I'll do it."
Of course you will, dear, and who is trying to stop you?
However, in your place of work your enthusiasms can't always be indulged.
Now, go and have a wee lie down and sob intae yer big tartan pillae, there's a good nutty nat.....
109

brianmca3,

auld reekie 24/06/2009 08:37:45
so why is LBP allowed to fly the rainbow gay flag at fetes,i wonder if someone complained,that it went against their way of life,would we be seeing such complaints surface
#95 spot on,also why did labour ignore UNISON in 98 when it saw through PFI as a huge con,but blair went ahead with it ,and generations will be forking out for it
110

Andrew Morton,

Berkshire 24/06/2009 08:41:26
The Lion Rampant should be ok by the Unionists amongst us as it's the Royal Banner and therefore represents the United Kingdom.

Is that ok?
111

brianmca3,

auld reekie 24/06/2009 08:42:22
grahamski= joyce yes i believe its the same wally who on newsnight,couldnt answer a simple question about having made a pile ,but not paid capital gains tax,with answers like "your asking personal questions that include my wife" his wife was never mentioned,just that the odious creep has pocketed a large wad and wont pay tax
grahamski should be on the stage,yes theres one going south in an hour ,be on it
112

The Tin Man,

24/06/2009 08:42:42
#110 brianmca

"intimidate non-Scottish colleagues"

If I had to share a desk with a be-flagged, tartan-draped weirdo, I would regard the person as 'mentally unbalanced', no matter where I came from. I would, in a very sane and balanced way, demand to set the flags on fire.

Protest now! Burn your saltire!
113

Andrew Morton,

Berkshire 24/06/2009 08:44:54
120

I suppose you would set on fire people who have tatoos of various Scottishness too then? Even though they maybe ever more competant at thier job than you?

Yes?
114

nostress,

grangemouth 24/06/2009 08:45:10
I work with people from England, Spain, France, Holland Italy and Germany. They all have their national flags - one from Catalonia even displays the flag of that country...no-one seems to be offended by this although I must admit the Rangers supporter who has his union flag and his Non Iron flag with the wee red hand of Ulster does provoke a degreee of "banter" especially when he tries to explain to our European colleagues what it all means to him - no popery and devotion to a German queen via a Dutch provincial monarch on a white horse...baffled looks all around. They ask why he doesn't show the Scottish flag then and he goes quite red in the face and gets quite upset by that idea...all good fun really, though I do have concerns about his blood pressure.
115

,

24/06/2009 08:45:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
116

Prudence,

24/06/2009 08:48:13
I've noticed in England that the flag with the cross of St. George is definitely more prominent these days. Its not racist, and doesn't intimidate me. It shows a country's identity and culture and something to celebrate.
117

john z,

edinburgh 24/06/2009 08:48:23
107, I could not agree more.

The union flag is offensive to many in Scotland, especially in the highlands of Scotland.

I suggest the woman involved should read her own library books, in particular, the proscription act of 1746.

If you visit the library, take a saltire, or wear a saltire badge. It's time for Scotland to be proud.
118

AonghasR,

24/06/2009 08:48:37

The main hall in the library has the stairs painted blue and the walls white, if thats not an expression of a saltire I don't know what is.

e.g. http://www.flickr.com/photos/47101250@N00/3550357851/


119

The Tin Man,

24/06/2009 08:49:03
#121 Andrew

That would be a step too far. Ghandi would disapprove. I drape my desk with Nazi memorabilia and sado-masochistic erotica. I expect tolerance.
120

john z,

edinburgh 24/06/2009 08:50:36
125,

I agree so much. Scotland should be proud of its flag, and england should be proud of its flag, the St.Georges cross.

121

Iain Mac,

24/06/2009 08:51:42
Funny, the Union Jack is the bloodsoaked flag of fascism and imperialism.
122

Andrew Morton,

Berkshire 24/06/2009 08:55:01
128 The Tin Man

That's fine, as long as you don't deny the holocaust (against the law) or practice sado-masochsim (against the law), then please yourself (literally).
123

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 24/06/2009 08:56:46
112 James Dow,Voluntari 24/06/2009 08:33:06

States:-

"the right to fly the stand-up-and roar standard of our nation is not a right Scots, other than the King or Queen of Scots, can claim."


The sovereignty (authority, or power) of Scotland belongs to the people of Scotland.

The Lion Rampant is the Standard of the Sovereign of Scotland.

Therefore the Lion Rampant, by definition, is the Standard of the Scots.

The Lion rampant is not the Standard of the descendent of the leader of some gang of thugs.

Apart from that, I agree with the rest of your post.

124

Penguin of Alba,

Edinburgh 24/06/2009 08:57:26
I visited the National Library yesterday, and noted that, of the 5 staff members I spoke to, only 2 were British, let alone Scottish. If this is representative of the employment pattern throughout the organisation, the Scots workers constitute a minority group and should not be discriminated against. Would they take the same action if an Italian worker displayed the Italian flag?
In defence of the National Library, however, I was also impressed by the tidy and clutter-free desks of the staff (at least those which are visible to the public). I'm all for a "clear desk" policy, but it should be implemented throughout the library if it's going be implemented at all.
125

The Tin Man,

24/06/2009 08:59:00
#131 Andrew

...After John Swinney made sexual perversion illegal in Scotland, it has taken on a new, exciting twist...

'Oh prude of Scotland
When will we see your likes again...'

etc...
126

Grahamski,

Falkirk 24/06/2009 09:00:10
126
"If you visit the library, take a saltire, or wear a saltire badge. It's time for Scotland to be proud."

Or you could just look up and see the saltire flying over the building....
127

Lianachan,

Highlands 24/06/2009 09:05:49
Legal status of the Royal Banner, according to the Court of the Lord Lyon.

"This is NOT a national flag and its use by citizens and corporate bodies is entirely wrong. Gold, with a red rampant lion and royal tressure. It is the Scottish Royal banner, and its correct use is restricted to only a few Great Officers who officially represent the Sovereign, including the Secretary of State for Scotland as Keeper of the Great Seal of Scotland, Lord Lieutenants in their Lieutenancies, the Lord High Commissioner to the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland. the Lord Lyon King of Arms, and other lieutenants specially appointed. Its use by other, non-authorised persons is an offence under the Acts 1672 cap. 47 and 30 & 31 Vict. cap. 17."
128

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 24/06/2009 09:07:17
Would it be racist if he the Union Jacks ? Yes I can hear the howls from the fish supper party . What hypocrites , trying to defend this employee . I would have complained if I had worked there . I want no flags .
129

voltaire's janny,

24/06/2009 09:08:49
Flags are symbols of nations, not race. An Englishman, Pole, Bangladeshi or Aborigine resident here meets the definition of Scotsman in my view, proud though they may be of their own cultural heritage.

Race has no credible scientific definition and racism should be re-parsed in our language as colour prejudice, xenophobia, cultural chauvinism, theocracy or whatever.

The Scottish flag IS a political and national banner. Its status is comparable to St George's, St. Patrick's and the Welsh one with the dragon on it.

The Union Jack has by definition come to symbolise Unionism.

Therefore any attempt by any institution to suppress dislplay of one of these flags must apply equally to all five banners or itself be accused of politicising the workplace.
130

Blues,

Edinburgh 24/06/2009 09:16:57
This is ridiculas... 2 minutes ago i was reading an article about how the BNP face court over blacks ban... then come across this. EH?

What's the country coming to when u can't be proud of your home or heritage... bearing a flag to me shows nothing but proudness! Yes some people make take offence.. if theyre not Scottish.. but this is Scotland.. do they expect us to be reppin the French stripes or what?.... Things are getting out of control with all this racist or what not carry on.. soon you won't be able to say 'aye' without bein chased down the street by a plod.

Fix up UK!!!!
131

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 24/06/2009 09:19:02
As a nat, I think the worker was a bit OTT, but his/her choice. My only concern was that it was a "shared" workstation, so he/she could have been more considerate.

I do disagree with Annabel Goldie and other unionists who accuse Alex Salmond of "politicising the saltire". It was not the SNP that have politicised the saltire, but rather the unionists adverse reaction to its use in certain situations. It is an indicator of a complete lack of confidence in the unionist camp.

I am offended by the union flag flying high in officialdom all over Scotland, but if individuals want to fly the union flag anywhere, I have no problem whatsoever. Their choice.
132

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 24/06/2009 09:19:11
136 Lianachan,Highlands 24/06/2009 09:05:49

I spit on your "Court of the Lord Lyon".

"There is no appeal if the Lord Lyon refuses to grant a coat of arms, as this is not a judicial function, but an exercise of the Royal Prerogative."

I also spit on your "Royal Prerogative".

133

The Tin Man,

24/06/2009 09:22:14
A National Library spokesman reacted angrily to the row, saying the saltire was in no way regarded as "racist" and had not been banned. He said: "This issue is about the excessive adornment of one individual's workplace.

"It was more like the home end at Hampden, with three or four large flags on it. It would not matter whether it was the union flag or the flag of St George – that is not a professional work station."

Fear of sex, fruit, dislike of the English, and love of chips and booze are all still allowed, so we can all still freely express our national identity.
134

Grahamski,

Falkirk 24/06/2009 09:23:31
140
"Well, if you look at this article, dumbo, you'll see that people in the management of my country's cultural institutions are trying to stop me"

Management at the library have done no such thing.

See a deluded persecution complex, see nutty nats?
135

dunedin bully wee 1877,

24/06/2009 09:24:11
143 The Tin Man

Where is the “home end” at Hampden?
136

Grahamski,

Falkirk 24/06/2009 09:25:37
146
The home end is traditionally the old Rangers end.
137

Ron Thomson,

calonge 24/06/2009 09:25:38
I am a Scot and living in Catalunia for the past 9 years, the Catalans fly their own Flag, because they do not accept Spain as their Country.
Do we complain when all these Nut Cases camp outside Buckingham Palace for days to wave their George Cross when the Royal Family drive past, i think not so what is wrong with Flying a Saltire it is yours and something to be proud of.
Burns Supper without a Saltire is like a Burns Supper without Haggis.
I would suggest that all Single Males going to England on Holiday should buy Saltire Condoms.
As far as the SNP are concerned they are another waste of time in the hands of Salmond, how can he spend £7000 on Two Lights and Two Tables, was he related to Donald Dewar another throwaway with Scottish Money.
138

The Tin Man,

24/06/2009 09:26:03
#141 Luigiana

There was an SNP MSP protesting outside the building - if that is not politicising excessive office adornment, then what is? Either the adornee is unhinged, or was pulling a political stunt for the you-know-who party.
139

dunedin bully wee 1877,

24/06/2009 09:27:33
144 Grahamski


“See a deluded persecution complex, see nutty nats?”


See the Daily Record and the “Scottish” Sun, are they “nutty nats” also?
140

dunedin bully wee 1877,

24/06/2009 09:29:06
147 Grahamski


“The home end is traditionally the old Rangers end.”

Says who?
141

Grahamski,

Falkirk 24/06/2009 09:29:35
151
Going by their splashes today it is obvious that we are deep into the 'silly season'......
142

The Tin Man,

24/06/2009 09:29:53
#146 bully

The old under-cover cheap seats, facing the foe's hoards, I believe. Just like shared desks in offices, apparently.
143

Grahamski,

Falkirk 24/06/2009 09:30:14
152
Me?
144

John S,

24/06/2009 09:31:35
The Saltire
The flag of St. Andrew, the patron saint of Scotland. Blue with a white or silver diagonal cross reaching to its edges, this is the correct flag for all Scots or Scottish corporate bodies to fly to demonstrate their loyalty and their Scottish nationality.
The Court of the Lord Lyon-the official heraldry office for Scotland.
145

The Tin Man,

24/06/2009 09:32:18
#141 Luigiana

He might even have been paid by the Hootsrag (.. and it will be a 'he'..). No-one is going to hit the website for the 'dog shoots man' story....
146

Lianachan,

Highlands 24/06/2009 09:32:18
#142 Calm down, you're dribbling a bit there. The Court of the Lord Lyon isn't mine, and neither is the "Royal Prerogative". I was quoting the legal status, that's all. What isn't mentioned in that source is the royal order, of 1934, which prevents Lord Lyon interfering in peoples rights to use the flag as a demonstration of loyalty to the soveriegn. Use the flag as you see fit, by all means. You *will* be committing a criminal offence, but you won't be prosecuted for it.
147

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 24/06/2009 09:33:28
Surely in this day and age, a red flag with a white circle in the middle with a black neolithic, equilateral cross, having it's arms bent a right angles in a clockwise formation would be more appropriate for Scotland.
148

Grahamski,

Falkirk 24/06/2009 09:34:50
159
Yep, time to start handing out the pitch forks and torches - welcome to your independent paradise - tartan taleban to the fore.....
149

rodm,

Durham 24/06/2009 09:35:42
The words Pavlov and Dog seem to apply here! The Scotman tinkles a wee bell and arff woof arrf, the programmed reaction is achieved.However whilst attempting to scratch my neck with my foot,I have changed my screensaver to the Lion Rampant,as yet no reaction from rest of office.Will try Saltire later.
150

dunedin bully wee 1877,

24/06/2009 09:38:21
155 Grahamski,

The Mount Florida end houses the visiting support in international games, and is not used by Queens Park supporters during their home games.

Apart from football and politics, what else do you know nothing of?
151

AJ Fife,

24/06/2009 09:40:12
More stories like this please.

It's just another prime example of unacceptable Unionist behaviour, but I'm sure all right minded citizens of Scotland can see through this, deliberate attempt, to denigrate our nationality.
152

Grahamski,

Falkirk 24/06/2009 09:41:22
163
And how much have we squandered on pointless gaelic translations and gaelic TV stations that nobody watches?
153

The Tin Man,

24/06/2009 09:43:35
...Meanwhile the World recession bites deeper...
154

mr broon,

Edinburgh 24/06/2009 09:43:54
Why on earth do trivial things like this continue to make the headlines? Surely the management of the NLS must have better things to worry about?

The NLS are responsible for making a non-story into a
another piece of propaganda for the SNP. This has been reported on the news agencies worldwide!

Every time some exaggerated complaint of this nature comes to the attention of the media the only winners are the Nationalists!

Yet, nobody will admit that the Nationalists are extremely good at manipulating the media even where the subject is petty and ridiculous!
155

Grahamski,

Falkirk 24/06/2009 09:45:28
166
"The Mount Florida end houses the visiting support in international games..."
Really, when we used to play England every other year I'm sure the English fans were in the East terracing - the Mount Florida end (or Rangers end) was always the home support....perhaps things have changed?
156

Andrew Morton,

Berkshire 24/06/2009 09:46:31
170

Less than what the BBC has spent our taxes on with regards Asian TV and radio channels that nobody watches or listens too.

Since I don't grudge the Asians that, why would I grudge Gaelic channels that I most definately can't and won't watch? What exactly is your point?
157

dunedin bully wee 1877,

24/06/2009 09:47:22
170 Grahamski


BBC Alba pulls 600,000 viewers in first week
PHIL MILLER, Arts Correspondent(The Herald)
October 28 2008

Scotland's new Gaelic channel, BBC Alba, has proven to be a success in its first week, drawing more than 600,000 viewers to its initial schedule.
The figure is substantially higher than the 250,000 audience that the BBC and MG Alba, the partners in the station, said they wanted to attract, and will be a boost for the station which for the moment is available only on Sky, Freesat and Virgin Media (not true) and not on Freeview, the most popular digital system.

Research, carried out for TNS System Three for BBC Alba, found that 15% of the Scottish population, 610,000 viewers, tuned into the new station, which started broadcasting in mid-September.

158

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 24/06/2009 09:47:34
158

I know I just like showing my republican colours whenever I get the opportunity.

159

Grahamski,

Falkirk 24/06/2009 09:53:03
178

"The racism is against us and heaped against us constantly."

This level of delusion is quite frankly scary.
160

Aggrieved Taxpayer 2,

East Kilbride 24/06/2009 09:54:40
Meanwhile, these esteemed National Institutions burn money to the tune of nearly £100m a year between them (NLS, NMS, NGS). Thank goodness that they deliver such a successful product.
161

The Tin Man,

24/06/2009 09:55:15
#176 bully

Obviously 14% of the entire population of Scotland made a mistake with the remote control, and quickly reverted to Celebrity Big Brother Treasure Island Talent Contest, instead of watching garlic gently braised in subtitles.
162

Grahamski,

Falkirk 24/06/2009 09:59:07
182
...Or the ludicrous spectacle of gaelic commentary over a football game played by two teams who are from parts of Scotland where gaelic is a foreign language..
163

Fiona Duigan-McKay,

Dunedin, New Zealand 24/06/2009 09:59:43
Even though I live in New Zealand I would rather have the saltire than the Butcher's rag sitting on my desk.

I am descended from the Macdonalds who lived in Inverness and that was one of the names that the Butcher tried to have proscribed.

The other side of my family is Southern Irish and so therefore I have a good Celtic mix.

I am proud to wear my tartan sash when I go dancing.

Fiona
164

The Tin Man,

24/06/2009 10:00:49
#183 Grahamski

Silence! Quisling pig!

You are not allowing Pol Pot to be Scottish!
165

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 24/06/2009 10:01:55
I have just put an English flag on my desk .
166

Grahamski,

Falkirk 24/06/2009 10:02:55
184
..and I'm sure you're as pretty as a picture in your fetching tartan sash.....
167

Nevsky;,

Moscow 24/06/2009 10:03:12
183 Grah*

Indeed. Gaelic should be banned and all funding withdrawn immediately.

Those Gaels imposing their culture on Scotland...how dare they!
168

,

24/06/2009 10:04:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
169

The Tin Man,

24/06/2009 10:05:37
#188 Nevski

I suggest that they are marched out of Stornovague and put to work in the fields.

Fafafafafa...
170

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

24/06/2009 10:08:31
Time for the guy to hoist the Jolly Roger?
171

BenNevis,

Walchwil, Switzerland 24/06/2009 10:08:59
What is this commotion all about?
If someone does not like the signs of Scottish pride why the hell does he live there?
Come on...
Let us stand together against these self righteous people trying to pervert every word we say and every sign we send out calling it nationalistic or racist.
172

Grahamski,

Falkirk 24/06/2009 10:09:05
188
Not at all, if you want to indulge your interest in speaking gaelic please carry on. Just don't expect public funds to subsidise your hobby.
173

David Chapman,

Aberdeen 24/06/2009 10:10:04
There is a direct correlation between the number of flags on display and racism.

Americans salute the flag. They pledge allegiance to it, they hang it outside their houses. And America is one of the most racist nations on Earth. They're busy invading places most of them can't find on a map, and anyone who disagrees (e.g. France) is denigrated. They are insular, unable to think beyond their own borders and their own wishes.

Nazi Germany. I hate using this example because it's cheap, but it fits. Flags everywhere. National pride the focus of their agenda. They drove out as many non-Germans as they could and murdered the ones who wouldn't leave. Think on that next time an SNP fan says here that when Scotland is free, the English will be kicked out.

Don't get me wrong, national pride is a fine thing to have. There's nothing wrong with displaying the saltire or the lion rampant, or wearing a kilt to work if you're entitled to one. But when you take it too far, the belief that your country is great becomes the belief that your country is better than any other and its people are superior. That's when pride becomes racism - and the surest sign of it is an excess of flags.
174

Grahamski,

Falkirk 24/06/2009 10:11:07
193
"You don't think that forcing someone to abrogate their national identity is a racist act?"

Err, since when has 'Scottish' been a race?
175

daveserviceman,

edinburgh 24/06/2009 10:13:52
Well more people on here suffering an identity crisis.
and insecurity.
I can honnestly say I do not need a bit of coloured rag to tell myself who i am and who and where I belong I already know this and am comfortable with all things in my life without stupid icons
176

El Franko,

24/06/2009 10:15:13
I find calling the Union Flag the 'butcher's apron' very offensive, and unjustified in the big order of things. The red flag of the former USSR could get the title, as could the swastika flag of the nazis, but not the flag of such a progessive empire, the likes of which has still to be beaten for benevolence and shared progress.
177

Lianachan,

Highlands 24/06/2009 10:16:05
#196 I can't believe this keeps coming up. The Oxford English Dictionary includes this definition of "race":

"3 a group of people sharing the same culture, language, etc.; an ethnic group. 4 a group of people or things with a common feature"

"Scottish" is a perfectly valid race, just like French, English, etc...
178

Porky,

England 24/06/2009 10:16:26
#45 Sorry Suzanne
"The Eco Party has a simple and inoffensive flag with a tree on it"
Implying that the saltire IS offensive??

#49 how did this get to be an anti-English rant - as you see I agree with you, but we don't want anything of yours (including Brown, Darling, Gorbals Mick etc.
The soon you lot are independent the better - though how you will stand on you own feet with your huge "public service job" mentality I don't like to guess
179

Nevsky;,

Moscow 24/06/2009 10:17:18
290 Tin Man*

Impwossiwble pweople...we twy to be nice and the nwext fwing they are commentating on fwootball in Gwawic...what next?

As fwor Edwinburgh they spweak in vat howwible Scwottishlilt which must be dwiven fwom their tongues....and don't gwet me stwated on Bwanffshire and dwowic!
180

Grahamski,

Falkirk 24/06/2009 10:20:56
201
At last, the knuckle-dragging anti- English bigot in all its finery.
Truly repugnant.
And truly representative of the parochial, mean-spirited, narrow-minded Scottish National Party.
Oh yes.....
181

Grahamski,

Falkirk 24/06/2009 10:21:53
202
Nope. It is more properly defined as anti-English bigotry.
182

,

24/06/2009 10:22:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
183

The Tin Man,

24/06/2009 10:23:20
#193 Year Zero

"You don't think that forcing someone to abrogate their national identity is a racist act?"

No, it is a nationalist act, my stuurmfuhrer. These acts are perpetrated by disgusting quisling traitor self-loathing cringist worms.

#201 Nevski

Football in Doric is the way forward! March the population of Lewis to Turrif for re-education, now!
184

Andrew Morton,

Berkshire 24/06/2009 10:26:11
Grahamski: Do you know the problem with you Scotch?

Scottish people: Wasn't aware we had a problem, but fire away.

Grahamski: The problem with you Scotch is that you arn't English.

Scottish people: Oh, I see. Thanks sir (tugging forelock) won't happen again....
185

Nevsky;,

Moscow 24/06/2009 10:26:40
203 Grah*

But hold on you are an anti-Gaelic biggot along with mean spirited and narrow minded toward Gaelic..also a hypocrite it seems.

Anti-English...where did you get that idea? I was mimicking upper class unionist Scots..my we are touchy!

186

Liz,

Edinburgh 24/06/2009 10:27:34
What kind of moron wants to sit surrounded by flags anyway?! How much insecurity does one have to have before you need to be reassured of your nationality by draping yourself with flags at any opportunity?

It is a place of work not a football stadium.
187

ChrisEH26,

Penicuik 24/06/2009 10:27:50
I assume that this newspaper would also be banned there as the name would obviously offend anyone who was not Scottish. I heard on the radio that no one in the office had complained so it sounds like some jumped up person trying to make themselves look more important.
188

,

24/06/2009 10:28:36
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
189

The Tin Man,

24/06/2009 10:34:04
#217 Pol Pot

You are most welcome to share my desk, replete with Nazi memorabilia, and sado-masochistic erotica. We can plot the eradication of the cringists together whilst draped in flags.
190

Nevsky;,

Moscow 24/06/2009 10:35:49
215 Graham*

You are the Nazi....the very nasty unionist variety who would like nothing better than the eradication of all Scottish culture.

I can see you now rampaging around the Sudetenland (Golspie) hounding anyone refusing to speak the queens (not the gay meanibg) English...burning old women from their homes for daring to wear a tartan shawl.....

'Ven i head zi vord Scottish culture..i vant to reach for my pistol'!!!
191

Lianachan,

Highlands 24/06/2009 10:35:55
Nevsky - I think you're wasting your time trying to engage Grahamski in any kind of useful conversation. He appears to have descended into petty abuse some time ago. Pity, as a successful defence of such blatantly apparant double standards would have been something worth reading.
192

His Royal Highness,

Zandvoort 24/06/2009 10:37:45
Every school building in Great Britain should fly the Union Flag.

This shouldnt even be up for debate.





193

Nevsky;,

Moscow 24/06/2009 10:43:06
223 Lianachan*

Gu dearbh! Quite laughable (and tradgically sad for Scotland) that people like Grahamski even exist in a modern and progressive country.

However i am secure in the knowledge that in 30 years time people like Grahamski will only be found in beads of amber!
194

Tarchin,

Lothian 24/06/2009 10:45:17
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel", Samuel Johnson. Discuss
195

David Chapman,

Aberdeen 24/06/2009 10:47:01
#216 - I don't normally respond to people who are swearing and insulting, but you have valid questions.

Who said the English will be kicked out? Well, a lot of people draped in saltires who support the SNP, but in context - #70.

What is my opinion of #196 and #200? That racism and stupidity are bad no matter who they're aimed at. Porky needs to shut up; you can't protest that someone doesn't like you when you're busy insulting them.

As for Grahamski, he started off with a foolish comment - of course the SNP identify their race as Scottish, "Scotland for Goidelic Celts!" sounds daft - then degenerated into insults. But that still puts him one up on you, who started off with an accusation that someone has sex with farm animals and continued with terms like "maggot brain" and "inbred".

Is Scotland satisfied?
196

jane shore,

london 24/06/2009 10:55:07
And further to Tarchin @ 220

Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind...Albert Einstein, Discuss.
197

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 24/06/2009 10:56:17
David Chapman,Aberdeen 24/06/2009 10:10:04
States:-

"There's nothing wrong with displaying the saltire or the lion rampant, or wearing a kilt to work if you're entitled to one."

ENTITLED TO ONE???

What is it, that "ENTITLES" you??

What were you saying about "Nazi Germany."

198

Andrew Morton,

Berkshire 24/06/2009 11:00:22
223

Albert was in a slightly different position to the Scots since he is of Germanic nationality, Jewish and lived and worked in Switzerland, Austria and Germany during the Nazi uprising.

Interestingly, he went to live, work and die in America. One of the most nationalistic countries in the World.
199

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 24/06/2009 11:02:12
192 David Chapman,Aberdeen 24/06/2009 10:10:04

States:-

"There is a direct correlation between the number of flags on display and racism."


And the Olympic Games falls exactly where in your "correlation".?

It must be the most racist gathering ever. What, with all those flags and everyone shaking hands and making friends.

200

Lianachan,

Highlands 24/06/2009 11:05:35
#223 Einsteins rightfully acknowledged status as a highly accomplished and respected physicist does not make him an expert on ALL matters. His opinion on matters outside of his field (quantum field, ha!) of expertise, while it could be interesting, is no more or less valid or important than yours, mine or anybody elses.
201

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 24/06/2009 11:08:35
220 Tarchin,Lothian 24/06/2009 10:45:17

"He who loves not his country, can love nothing",Byron.

Discussion over.



202

dunedin bully wee 1877,

24/06/2009 11:12:52
I note that the employee at the centre of Ms Miller’s ire, and who is named in a number of other publications, is described as an ex-soldier.

This being the case he will be well used to having his Nationality misrepresented by the butcher’s apron, and it is perhaps understandable that he wished to make this particular statement.

As I stated earlier, I do not know exactly what size his display was, and there are conflicting reports regarding this.

However, whatever the truth of this may actually be, Ms Miller has hardly shown herself to be of managerial standard by acting in the manner which she appears to have done.

Wiser heads should now take her aside and warn her of the consequences of bringing her organisation into disrepute.
203

jane shore,

london 24/06/2009 11:19:03

226 I was quoting Einsteins views on Nationalism, not independence. We dont seem to have Einsteins thoughts on Independence so who knows?

Reading the article it seems to me that the library guy was told not to display such a quantity of flags etc. 3 large flags!? He sounds like a bit of a sad geek.

Lianchan ..230... My opinion on Scottish Independence is the same as most of my compatriots , according to the polls anyway. We watch on the sidelines & hope you manage it.
204

MoiraMac,

24/06/2009 11:19:17
I wonder if he was wearing a CU Jimmy hat. Perhaps it's only non-Scots who wear these hats in order to offend Scots.

The Saltire like all the rest of Scottish symbolism has been hijacked by the tartan tat merchants and turned into a joke!


Time for a new flag for Scotland.

'No CU Jimmy hats please - they could be racist'
205

Miss H,

24/06/2009 11:22:20
There seems to be mixed messages coming out about this from the National Library. One spokesperson says that the guy’s desk was like the home end at Hampden, in which case it is fair enough to tell him to get a grip. He is at work, not at a football match. But another spokesperson has allegedly said that having Scottish flags could be regarded as racist. That’s obviously just nonsense.

Possibly what has happened here is that the management were fed up with the worker who doubles up as cheerleader for the tartan army. Only instead of telling him just to tone down the tartan someone has gone thru the staff handbook in order to find the relevant section under which they could instruct him to remove the flags and made a bit of a boo-boo which the ever-vigilant Christine Grahame has leapt on like a lioness devouring a gazelle.

Saltires or puppies – don’t mess with CG on either of these issues because she is ferocious in defence of each.
206

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 24/06/2009 11:26:25
#149 The Tin Man

Agreed, I am no fan of Christine Grahame either (silly woman). SNP's answer to Baron Foulkes? LOL
207

Marian,

24/06/2009 11:27:59
The problems with allowing employees to surround and bedeck their desk with tribal paraphernalia is (a) where does it stop, and (b) when does it become deeply offensive?

For example most intelligent people would not like to see soccer paraphernalia or Nazi paraphernalia surrounding a colleagues desk - not I hasten to add that I would suggest that the Saltire etc is as offensive as the former.

Surely it is possible to be proud of being a Scot and an independence seeker without it being necessary to flaunt or advertise the fact in this way?
208

Lianachan,

Highlands 24/06/2009 11:29:22
Jane - My point is that people tend to have a habit of quoting well known experts when they are discussing things that are well out of their area of expertise. Now, I will listen to what Einstein, for example, has to say about the search for a working theory on quauntum gravity, or (especially) about the nature of light.... but his views on nationalism interest me about as much as any discussions about his favourite colour, music, etc.. Don't get me wrong, I'm not getting at you. It's a pet hate of mine, though. "Einstein said..." should almost always be replied to with "So what?" :-)
209

Miss H,

24/06/2009 11:30:18
239 Marian - why are you assuming that this guy supports independence?
210

jane shore,

24/06/2009 11:36:35

Lianachan @ 240.

Fair point, and I agree. Nevertheless Einsteins comment on any matter ( Nationalism included)is interesting & open for discussion.

As ever these blogs have become an Independence debate. Does the Saltire = Independence ?
211

Onecoolspot,

edinburgh 24/06/2009 11:36:53
As someone said, this story has grown arms and legs.

It has gotten all out of context; the NLS may or should have a clear desk policy which clearly sets out what is permissible on a workstation. If it has not then the management should be sacked.

Did someone put in a complaint about the workstation in question?

Did the office Team Leader raise the issue with the offending workstation?

Why did the issue have to be taken to director level before any action was taken?

In my view the most unprofessional aspect of this issue was the cowardice use of email to inform staff of the company policy.

Perhaps the company policy is not clear enough regarding desk policy.

The fact that this story has drawn in the political spectrum is a disgrace and even the fact that some esteemed politicians have jumped on this publicity bandwagon for their own ends shows that’s they are no better than the idiot director who completely mishandled this very small issue within an office.

I would think that there are more pressing issues at large, people losing jobs, the state of the economy, dealing with and controlling illegal immigration, fighting poverty, catching and dealing with all those benefit cheats, tax dodgers, getting the work shyer’s back or into work, improving education standards, bringing back the apprenticeship scheme so our young people can learn a useful trade thus improving our skills base.

Ok, so the person in question went OTT with his pride in his country, all it would have taken is a little tact from the line managers to explain desk policy and show some compromise.

This story is the usual propaganda nonsense from this rag getting a dig and trying (successfully) to provoke outrage at the SNP.
This is Scotland; we should be permitted to show our pride in our country within the constraints of any workplace with clear and concise information with regards to personal items on the workstation.
212

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 24/06/2009 11:42:08
The majority of scots don't feel superior to other races in any way (often the reverse actually). The celts in any case have always been a mixed race (so have the anglo-saxons, but we won't go there)!

What Scots do feel is pride in their strong identity.
This is what draws people of all shapes, sizes and colours to living in Scotland, working with scots and often, becoming scots themslves. They are all welcome to join us and share our scottish identity. It's not exclusive, but it's not British either. It's a choice.
213

issie60,

Texas (Scotland) 24/06/2009 11:43:19
We had a similar situation where a person objected to the US flag on another workeres wall in her office. Americans were outraged and the flag stayed. In texas people have the Texas flag flying, it does not mean they are not patriot to the US. If people dont like the national flag of the country they are in, then let them go somewhere else.
214

Number 6,

Germany 24/06/2009 11:51:47
How pathetic, is this "South Britain's " attempt to instill the same sense of self loathing and worthlessness that they revel in.

Naturally the Scottish unionista wretches here are supporting this move. Quite pathetic and can only backfire in a country where most of the peoploe are now proud of their national identity.

Just because they can't find anyone outside Glasgow, prepared to celebrate "Britishness Day" does not mean they can spread this disease of self hate to Scotland.

And what do Scottish unionista puppets have to say ....

Scottish Conservative leader Annabel Goldie blamed Alex Salmond, saying: "Incidents like this are happening because Alex has politicised the saltire. I warned him a year ago that the saltire was our national flag, not his Nationalist symbol."

This from a Scottish witch who's party have "Politicised" the unionjack since time began.
215

Grahamski,

Falkirk 24/06/2009 11:52:53
245
arf arf arf
the Scotch...deluded and in denial....
216

Sgian Dubh,

24/06/2009 11:54:04
#192
Come to Northern Ireland and look at the Union and Ulster flags on nearly every lamp-post. That's what your call racist/sectarian/bigotry. And it's right on the door-step.
217

Miss H,

24/06/2009 11:54:32
248 I have no idea why you think Glasgow celebrates Britishness Day. Glasgow is the only Scottish city where you will never see the union jack flying from offical buildings.

In any case why does everyone assume this chap is an SNP supporter?

I could think of a number of explanations as to why he had these flags.

1. He is a member of the tartan army – that is a supporter of the Scottish football team.
2. We are told he is ex-military. We have all seen the saltire draped tanks out in Iraq. Maybe those flags have some kind of personal meaning for him, perhaps he brought them back from Iraq and flies them as a way of remembering friends who died or who are still over in Afghanistan.
3. Maybe he is going out with someone who works in a tartan tat shop and gets freebies.
4. Maybe he is a madly camp tartan trouser wearer and wants his chair to match his trousers.
5. Maybe all of the above.

None of these things would automatically imply that he is a supporter of Scottish independence. He could just as easily be a unionist. Who remembers Nicky Fairbairn?


218

Liber Respublica de Scotia,

24/06/2009 11:57:34
Those bloody sassenachs weren't too "intimidated" by our sacrosanct saltire when they desicrated it to form the extant symbol of the subjugation of Scotland, the genocide of her people and the forced displacement the remnants, (the butcher's apron), were they?
219

Grahamski,

Falkirk 24/06/2009 11:57:37
248
My goodness some nutter goes way OTT with decorations at work and is told to calm down...and what does this deluded Ally MacG do?
Asks 'Is it cos I is Scotch?' and runs to the biggest crackpot in Holyrood with tales of pc gone mad......
hysterical
220

nostress,

grangemouth 24/06/2009 11:59:24
#192 David Chapman - "Think on that next time an SNP fan says here that when Scotland is free, the English will be kicked out."

Please show me where it is SNP policy to commit such a despicable act. As you well know there are a large number of English people who are active members of the SNP, people who have a care and desire to see the place they live and work prosper. They perhaps more than most can see how the dead hand of unionism is stifling and choking the life out of Scotland.

Please issue a direct apology for your deliberate smear. It was very sneakily put, but it was a deliberate attempt to smear the only political party which puts the interests of ALL of Scotland first.
221

dunedin bully wee 1877,

24/06/2009 12:05:02
242 Year Zero

I am not a unionist and am therefore not your ideal respondent.

However, a small anecdote may be apposite.

I was working in Hungary a few years ago, and in the company of a small group of Scottish and Irish ex-pats wandered into a Budapest city centre bar one evening.

This place, apart from having a peanut shell strewn floor, was remarkable for being be-decked with Hungarian national flags and other symbols of Hungarian national identity.

When asked, the bar manager replied that no, they were not celebrating Hungary’s National Day, they were merely celebrating the fact that after years of Soviet suppression, it was now no longer illegal to display such symbolism.

Seems familiar does it not?
222

Andrew Horton,

24/06/2009 12:16:55
I'm the secretary of a branch and my brothers, sisters and father are all English. The secretary of a branch nearby is English and only moved to Scotland from England a few years ago. There are SNP MSPs and MPs who are English. I know an SNP councillor whose parents are English. If I had ever smelt a whiff of bigotry (which I haven't) I would report it immediately. These accusations of SNP bigotry appear to be based solely on the dregs of the worst kind of post (many of which are purposefully inflaming) on forums such as this.

And neither the Scots, the English, nor the Celts are, or ever were, a "race".

Onto the article. It seems the bloke had gone too far with his desk. So long as others who had adorned their own desk to such an extent were treated in a similar manner, then I have no problem with this. I do take offence with the suggestion that the Saltire may be taken as offensive or racist. However I also think the employee in question was cheapening the flags by the way he was using them (though that's a personal opinion).
223

kennyy,

24/06/2009 12:20:18
Can anyone explain why the union jack is sitting higher than the saltire over edinburgh castle and other building in the area. I thought this was reversed when the SNP got in.

Embarrasing seeing all those butcher's aprons flying about my capital. I find it a constant, in your face, reminder of scotland's subjugation, which is far more offensive than anything described in this story.
224

Luke P,

24/06/2009 12:21:06
It's interesting. If he had been waving saltires in a library in London I'm sure he would have got away with it and any critics summarily executed. After all down there it's very trendy to Scotch things up. But cos it was in Scotland there's a clash of PC-ism. All it shows that Scottish has become the dominant cultural identity in Scotland, no surprise.
225

Joe Plaice,

the Nutmeg of Consolation 24/06/2009 12:22:03
Sorry if I'm starting to sound like a stuck record, but this is exactly the kind of mindless overly PC twaddle that we should stamp out ASAP. It is an utter nonsense that is designed to reduce our culture to the lowest possible denominator, that goes for ENgland, Wales, Ireland and every other European country. They want to reduce us to numbers on a balance sheet and control every aspect of our lives, that will include what we say, (you CAN'T say 'Black' board), you can't display your flag, you can't dislike immigrants even if there is a just cause, (he borroed my strimmer and broke it!), etc. etc.

Yes Fifi, for once I agree with you. I smell Common Purpose and Julia Middleton in all of this monumental B.S.!
226

Luke P,

24/06/2009 12:24:35
Number 255 - question. When was it ever illegal to display a cross of St Andrew? When was this mythical period of Scottish oppression?
227

Liber Respublica de Scotia,

24/06/2009 12:27:45
Nostress,
I couldn't possibly calculate all of the occasions when I have been referred to, disparagingly, with such traditional slurs as "jock", "sweaty", "ginger", (even though my hair is actually more of a golden blonde colour), "chimp", "monkey man" and etcetera.

Then, of course, there's the routine stereotyping of Scots as being lazy, drunk, whinging, fractious layabouts - even though I gladly took as much overtime as was offered while seventeen of the nineteen English colleagues who I was working with did absolutely nothing throughout the entire shift, and couldn't get through the gates fast enough before dusk.

I was frequently asked, indignantly, "if Scotland is so great then why don't you go back there?" Well, I did! And, it was the best thing that I've done to date.

228

macca,

out there some where :-) 24/06/2009 12:27:46
what a drab story, there is a lack of nationalistic blood in Scotland,we dont even speak our national language,as for the clean desk issue, how boring!!!!!.give the guy a break, if he is in a dark hole let him brighten his life up. I wonder if his jocks have the flag, that would be nasty!!!!!!!!!!
229

Brideun,

Culloden 24/06/2009 12:29:13
Generally, those who loudly proclaim " We ur ra People" and who also bring attention to their nationalism by wearing colourful eye catching adornments are in fact suffering from an inferiority complex. They should be understood and not scorned.
'They canna help it'!
230

IainGlasgow,

24/06/2009 12:30:08
I wonder does the National Library have a Saltire on its roof? If so this is a bit of a double standard.
231

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 24/06/2009 12:32:06
261 Luke P,24/06/2009 12:24:35

Try reading the article then if you have time follow the thread.

Then you wouldn't make such a fool of yourself.
232

IainGlasgow,

24/06/2009 12:32:52
#260

Common Purpose were very conspicuous by there lack of even a mention on a consiracy theory documentary about the Illuminati that was on the other night.
233

dunedin bully wee 1877,

24/06/2009 12:36:54
261 Luke P,

“When was it ever illegal to display a cross of St Andrew? When was this mythical period of Scottish oppression?”


1746 - Highland Dress Proscription Act

The exact wording of the act was as follows:

"That from and after the First Day of August 1747, no man or boy within that part of Great Britain called Scotland, other than such as shall be employed as Officers and Soldiers of His Majesty's Forces, shall on any pretext whatsoever, wear or put on the clothes, commonly called Highland clothes (that is to say) the Plaid, Philabeg, or little kilt, Trowes, Shoulder-Belts, or any part whatever of what peculiarly belongs to the Highland Garb; and that no tartan or party-coloured plaid or stuff shall be used for Great coats or upper coats, and if any such person shall presume after the first said day of August, to wear or put on the aforesaid garments or any part of them, every person so offending.... shall be liable to be transported to any of His Majesty's plantations beyond the seas, there to remain for the space of seven years."

Hope that answers your question.
234

Tartan Viking,

24/06/2009 12:39:22
I wonder if this Alexandra Miller, director of customer services would say anything if the worker was Iranian or Iraqi, for example, and he/she had a a few Iranian or Iraqi flags on show?

My betting is that there would be an outcry and he would back down (or not bother in the first place).

People in this country are easy targets, who lie down and accept what is dished out to them, in danger of creating a two-tiered country.
235

Grahamski,

Falkirk 24/06/2009 12:46:56
270
I think maybe you've cut and pasted the wrong bit. There's no mention of the saltire being banned in your post....could you post the part which pertains to the saltire being banned?
Cheers
236

Grahamski,

Falkirk 24/06/2009 12:48:00
272
Going by the story it would depend entirely on the size of said flags....
237

Jo'Burg Jock,

24/06/2009 12:54:17
273 Grahamski,Falkirk 24/06/2009 12:46:56

bully wee was quite explicit

“When was this mythical period of Scottish oppression?”

and he answered.

Did you struggle with English Comprehension at school?
238

Gorach,

Oban 24/06/2009 12:55:58
My workdesk has 2 figures - Wallace and Bruce
No complaints from anyone but then again I am called big yin...

The NL should grow up. It is Scotland.More displays like this are needed.

June 24, 1314
On this day, the Scots led by King Robert the Bruce defeated the English at the battle of Bannockburn.

239

Grahamski,

Falkirk 24/06/2009 12:58:24
275
From Bullyboy's post
“When was it ever illegal to display a cross of St Andrew?"
Answer?
240

Grahamski,

Falkirk 24/06/2009 12:59:14
276
Fascinating.....I've heard the Scotch invented everything...have you got a tea towel which confirms this?
241

Luke P,

GB 24/06/2009 13:03:22
270 Yes I know all about the highland clearances and banning of tartan. It was very sad for sure. If I had been alive a the time I would no doubt have been a Jacobite myself but seeing the context of it I can understand the government's paranoia after the risings. But the episode gets portrayed as an English-Scottish struggle, which it Never was. And please, when was the saltire ever banned???
242

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 24/06/2009 13:03:56
277

Clue:- "mythical period of Scottish oppression"

Bully wee proves it was no myth.

243

Grahamski,

Falkirk 24/06/2009 13:06:29
281
Clue - Bullyboy proves only that the highlanders who were guilty of treachery were treated very harshly by the British state, Scotland included. It wasn't anti-Scotland it was anti-Jacobite Highlander.
244

Luke P,

24/06/2009 13:08:47
276 - ah oui, good old Robert the Bruce, ou peut-etre, "Robert le Brus", patriote et l'heros du peuple ecossais...
245

Joe Plaice,

The Nutmeg of Consolation 24/06/2009 13:09:04
Grahamskijump are you even Scottish, (no-one calls us the Scotch any more, especially the Scots themselves) or are you a true blue unionist English troll?

#268, IainGlasgow, If you are unaware of Common Purpose, they are our Common Enemy, they are something that should actually unite unionists and pro-independence folks alike as they are out to destroy the fabric of society throughout these sceptered isles. Just Google Brian Gerrish or watch him on this video at:
http://tinyurl.com/lykhet

These are VERY scary, dangerous people who want to create an Orwellian state and they have been doing a pretty good job of it up to now. Have you noticed that, although we are amongst the highest taxed nations on earth, nothing works or gets fixed properly any more? How can that be? Where does all that money go? Start asking questions and start checking on your City Council, the police, the NHS, schools, Boards of Education, the media, (the BBC in particular), they've all been infiltrated by CP and they are all functioning more pooly because of it.
246

dunedin bully wee 1877,

24/06/2009 13:15:18
280 Luke P

I refer you to my previous post upon this subject.

“commonly called Highland clothes (that is to say) the Plaid, Philabeg, or little kilt, Trowes, Shoulder-Belts, or any part whatever of what peculiarly belongs to the Highland Garb; and that no tartan or party-coloured plaid or stuff”

What do you think “other party-coloured stuff” refers to?

Yes, it included both the Saltire and the Lion Rampant.

Happy to oblige.

247

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 24/06/2009 13:16:14
283 Grahamski,Falkirk 24/06/2009 13:06:29

"guilty of treachery"

I am not a Royalist, but it wasn't the Jacobites that were guilty of "treachery".

The Stewarts were the rightful line.

You use the word "treachery" too casually.

248

Grahamski,

Falkirk 24/06/2009 13:16:16
286
Like most of my fellow Scots, I would have resisted the Stuart pretender.
249

TheDisplacedGlaswegian,

Edinburgh 24/06/2009 13:18:21
The problem here is that some numpty manager has bottled it to take this guy to the side and tell him to bin the (perhaps) childish behaviour as it is doing his professional image and career aspirations no good at all (says me, not having even seen his desk) and instead has sent a totally inappropriate and personally embarrassing email that completely misses the point.

Saltires and a tartan chair cover are ok with me, but three or four 4ft type flags carried by football and rugby fans on stands does sound a tad over the top...

The bottom line is, at the moment it is patriotic employee 1 bottling, numpty manager 0.
250

Luke P,

GB 24/06/2009 13:21:58
Bully wee, "party coloured stuff" does not sound specific. If they had wanted to ban the Andrew's cross they would have mentioned it quite specifically. Plus, if they had banned it they would have had to ban all the union flags up and down the land and round the empire too. Plus, we would have heard plenty of stories of wee Tam McAdam, hero patriot, strung up by his goolies for flying the flag. No mate, it wasn't banned. Fantasy.
251

Grahamski,

Falkirk 24/06/2009 13:22:34
289
"What do you think “other party-coloured stuff” refers to?"
"Yes, it included both the Saltire and the Lion Rampant."

Don't be ridiculous.
252

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 24/06/2009 13:23:20
293
Stewart is derived from the "Steward" of Scotland.

Therefore I claim the free cruise.
253

Lianachan,

Highlands 24/06/2009 13:26:18
#283 "It wasn't anti-Scotland it was anti-Jacobite Highlander."

It was actually far more complicated than that. I would refer you to some excellent literature that covers that period of history (and, crucially, the preceeding centuries) so that you could find out more, but I doubt you'd be interested. I certainly can't see the point in explaining it to you, even if I could be bothered. To grossly over simpligy it, though, if you removed the word "Jacobite" from what I quoted from you then you'd be getting closer to the facts of the matter.
254

whitedogmum,

Lincoln 24/06/2009 13:28:18
I'm sorry if the flags on the desk "intimidate non-Scottish colleagues", Hello, the desk is in Scotland and one should be proud to display the flags....and those around should be grown up enough to accept the fact that they ARE in Scotland...so the pride in the National symbol should be displayed proudly. Now if proper flag ediquette wasn't used...maybe room for a gripe...if it were me...I'd go out and buy a dozen more flags, and put them completely around my desk
255

Number 6,

Germany 24/06/2009 13:29:25
The fear of the Saltire amongst the unionista movement is palpable.

I wonder if we will have Scottish Unionista politicians objecting to Scottish drivers flying scottish flags from their vehicles during the Commenwealth Games?

Be proud of who you are, leave the shame to those who consider themselves "british " before Scottish.

256

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 24/06/2009 13:31:23
It sounds like he was over-doing it a bit !
257

Joe Plaice,

The Nutmeg of Consolation 24/06/2009 13:31:42
#291 Grahamskijump, Oh, so you're a Scotch quisling unionist troll. How very droll. As far as I know, Butcher Cumberland and his army ravaged Scotland at will, punishing loyal and rebel highlanders alike. They weren't into political correctness in them thar days.

Luke P,(enis); Correct me if I'm mistaken but wasn't the Bruce's mother Scots? If he hadn't been at least partly Norman, the chances of him becoming king would have been extremmely remote. As it was he had the best of both worlds.
258

Miss H,

24/06/2009 13:33:27
Ah - that could be another reason he drapes his desk in regalia.

he could be a Jacobite pretender to the throne.

There used to be a wee belgian guy who worked in a tartan tat shop in Princess St who said he was the heir to the throne. Don't know what happened to him - maybe he's working in the National Library.
259

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 24/06/2009 13:33:40
#300 Number 6

Entirely agree.

I always struggle to understand how someone can describe themselves Scottish AND British. They are, after all, mutually exclusive!
260

Luke P,

24/06/2009 13:37:16
302, ooh, resorting to personal insults is a sign of desperation my friend. Think again, le Brus was indeed of Norman extraction like the majority of the Scottish nobility (and English nobility) to this day. All those clans - Fraser, Douglas, Gordon, Cameron, Sinclair, Ogilvie, Ramsey etc etc. - all French mate, thanks to king David I who traded Scottish lands for his own power. Sorry to burst your bubble.
261

Observer,,

Glasgow 24/06/2009 13:38:58
Can anyone one explain why you would have *numerous* saltires, a lion rampant, and a tartanised chair at your workstation. I mean we all do a bit of desk decoration but it seems a tad OTT. I really can think about beter things to argue about like this.

Grahamski - it's a lovely day - surely you've been posting for long enough ?
262

Grahamski,

Falkirk 24/06/2009 13:41:02
306
Are you kidding?
Come on in, the water's lovely!
Just watch as these nutters' heads explode.....boom.....and they'll disappear like Scotch mist round Brigadoon...och aye the NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
263

Observer,,

Glasgow 24/06/2009 13:46:02
307 Hmmm perhaps you've been out in the sun already :)

I reckon this bloke was noising someone up, and is probably fairly embarrassed now.
264

Luke P,

GB 24/06/2009 13:48:22
304 Scottish and British mutually exclusive? I think I understand your point. A man cannot have two masters... I think we're unique in the world at having this Jekyll and Hyde personality. We probly should have dispensed with notions of English and Scottish a long time ago, just like Pictish and Northumbrian. Though who knows, they may come back in fashion. I believe we are a pretty much identical people on this island and all these divisions, based largely on fantasised historic trauma are a load of hogwash. Plays right into the hands of the EU of course...
265

Richard Lionheart,

24/06/2009 13:49:28
It could only happen in Britain.

In other countries if you called the National Flag racist or offensive and called for it to be removed you would be charged with treason.

Our politicians really have gone soft in the head.
266

Onecoolspot,

edinburgh 24/06/2009 13:49:40
You see, all this infighting and point scoring is exactly what got us in the mess in the first place. Some of it is so childish that even the kids would tell you to grow up.

Scotland and England are on one island separated by a border that has moved a few times either way. It is also separated by culture although the culture of these individual nations have been seriously eroded and diluted in the quest for total unity with humanity at large.

I am proud of my heritage, I am proud to be a Scotsman. Independence can only happen for the right reasons; it will always falter if the voting public often see this kind of so called debate on the most trivial matters.

I know and work with English people who are proud to be part of Scottish culture and are mature enough not to let political issues mar their relationship with Scotland, equally there are English born people living in Scotland doing more for Scotland and its culture than some of its own jakeys who think they know it all.

Scotland’s future with or without independence should be forward thinking with a vision to improve the quality of life and secure its nationalistic identity based on successful integration of all its inhabitants.

We all know the history, that’s in the past. Using it will not bring independence, but further delay it.

Time to get a grip and build on our pride of being a great country and embrace in forward thinking.

267

Luke P,

24/06/2009 13:52:00
312 What kind of independence are you foreseeing? A peripheral region of the EU? That's no independence at all.
268

Lianachan,

Highlands 24/06/2009 13:53:43
Luke P - please check my post at #111. Judging by what you say in #310, it also applies to you.
269

nostress,

grangemouth 24/06/2009 13:57:05
#262 liber - "I couldn't possibly calculate all of the occasions when I have been referred to, disparagingly, with such traditional slurs as "jock", "sweaty", "ginger", (even though my hair is actually more of a golden blonde colour), "chimp", "monkey man" and etcetera.

Then, of course, there's the routine stereotyping of Scots as being lazy, drunk, whinging, fractious layabouts - even though I gladly took as much overtime as was offered while seventeen of the nineteen English colleagues who I was working with did absolutely nothing throughout the entire shift, and couldn't get through the gates fast enough before dusk."

Liber - I've experienced much of the same myself when working and living in England, but to be fair most of it was meant as harmless fun and when I did say anything most of the folk were apologetic. The thing is you get morons in every country, we have a prime one who posts on here from Falkirk, and I found many more pleasant intelligent folk than otherwise when in England. What I could never quite understand though, was when I moved to Germany, I actually always felt more at home there, more accepted rahter than labelled than I did in England.

I am a passionate believer in independence, not a great flag waver, but grue when I see the union flag over Edinburgh castle, and since returning to Scotland have been pleasantly surprised by the surge in self-confidence amongst the population at large. Unfortunately, we still have the cringers, the forelock-tuggers and general slave-mentality followers of the union amongst us, with their very narrow-minded outlook for Scotland, but they are fewer in number and tend to be older and fairly closed minded. When you see other countries, you realise Scotland has been ill-served by these lackeys, but I do believe true independence is on its way, which will be a boon for all of the nations on these Isles.
270

Grahamski,

Falkirk 24/06/2009 13:59:18
308
Stuart. Obviously.
The wee nat was wrong but it was Westminster's fault. Obviously.
271

Nevsky;,

Moscow 24/06/2009 14:01:00
313 Luke*

Peripheral region within the EU. What a strange statement!

Geographically yes!

Poltically Scotland is worse than peripheral at the moment...it does not exist!

272

Onecoolspot,

edinburgh 24/06/2009 14:02:39
313 - At the moment I foresee an independent nation built on good trade relations with a wider Europe or indeed UK. This along with the common goal of governing our own country, making our own decisions, learning from our mistakes and more importantly, celebrating our successes.

Either that or we just sit back and let the Westminster decide our fate and continue to treat us like second rate citizens in a region north of the border.

Independence will also give us the right to decide whether we want to be part of the EU, I am sure that a successful Independent Scotland will remain so.
273

Joe Plaice,

24/06/2009 14:03:50
#313 LukeP, I actually aree with you here. Leading us out of one rotten union and into an even more pure dead worser one is pure dead mental.
274

Luke P,

24/06/2009 14:06:20
err Lianachan, well the Romans came, overcame the Britons (welsh) except in the far north where the Picts (pre-celtic indigenous inhabitants probably of Iberian origin) fought them off. Then the Scots came over to the western isles from Ireland and squabbled with the Picts. Then the Romans left and the Angles arrived and conquered the Picts and Britons in south and eastern Scotland and founded Edinburgh. Norwgian vikings arrived in the north and wetern isles. Kenneth Mcalpine eventually conquered the Picts and formed the first Kingdom of Scots and Picts, known as Alba or later Scotland in the 9th century. Gaelic replaced Pictish and lowland Scots developed from Northumbrian.

Ok - the Scots have almost the same genetic inheritance as the rest of the Brits - or am I missing something?
275

nostress,

grangemouth 24/06/2009 14:08:24
Why are the unionist posters on here obsessed by race or genetics?
276

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 24/06/2009 14:10:25
318 Grahamski,Falkirk 24/06/2009 13:59:18

The Stewart house was established by Robert II, son of Walter, 6th high STEWARD of Scotland, and Marjorie Bruce, daughter of Robert I (The Bruce).

Grahamski, the unionist is wrong, but that's easy for a unionist.

277

Grahamski,

Falkirk 24/06/2009 14:12:16
327
We were discussing Prince Charles Edward Stuart.
278

Lianachan,

Highlands 24/06/2009 14:13:55
#324 "am I missing something?"

To be polite about it, yes, yes you are. You are almost entirely wrong in pretty much everything you said there. Sorry. As I said, if you are genuinely interested in the early history of the British Isles, there are many good books on the subject.
279

Luke P,

24/06/2009 14:15:21
Lianachan you're not just dismissing me, but dismissing the good books on the subject that I have read. Please enlighten us...!
280

Number 6,

Land Of The Flying Flag. 24/06/2009 14:15:28
I would have loved to have seen Mzzzzzz Alexander try that move over here in Germany.

She would be out the door before she could say "I hate myself" .
281

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 24/06/2009 14:18:17
329 Grahamski,Falkirk 24/06/2009 14:12:16

I was discussing Prince Charles Edward Stewart. I have no idea who the other guy is.

282

Grahamski,

Falkirk 24/06/2009 14:22:17
333
"I have no idea who the other guy is."
Perhaps you should read a book?
283

Number 6,

Germany 24/06/2009 14:24:48
328# Jimmy,
it's unionista Self Loathing in all it's naked glory.

See how they revel in it.

310# Luke if you want to talk genetics then we are all just one big African tribe.

We are talking about differences in culture, outlook, language etc. These developed internally, and were not shared the length and breadth of Britain.

That's why there are different languages found in each of the different countries. Our ties are purely geographical. Indeed we Scots always had closer ties to the French, even supplying the royal body guard for some time.

The "Auld Alliance" was only broken by the horrors of good old religion.
284

Nevsky;,

Moscow 24/06/2009 14:26:07
331 Luke P*

When did this turn into a debate on anthropology? What is your point...that x race of people are related to y race of people..yes we know all that!

However, culture and identity are what separate England and Scotland...just as it seperated England and Germany..so what is your point?

The English come from a mediaeval pig farming Anglo-Saxon culture...much more akin to that of Germany than that of Scotland.

285

Ifan Har,

Scotland 24/06/2009 14:27:42
Another timeous reminder that all remaining indeginous people of these Islands, England, Ireland, Wales and Scotland are a subjugated and oppressed people!

The settlers who were indigenous to Africa and Asia and their descendents will continue to assert themselves by complaining about the subdued natives display of their national symbols of identity. This reminder of the fact that before the process of constructive genocide became official successive British Government policy we were a free people with the privilige of freedom of speech now only enjoyed by the conquering settlers and their descendents!

Eventually in 100 years we, the aboriginal inhabitants will not only be committing a criminal act by displaying our symbols of national identity but will be extinct, entirely replaced by the descendants of the African and Asian settlers!
286

Luke P,

24/06/2009 14:33:17
335 and 336 I am afraid you are buying falsehoods.

"The English come from a mediaeval pig farming Anglo-Saxon culture...much more akin to that of Germany than that of Scotland."

Not quite true. Angles and Saxons are components of the English, as they are of the Scottish. Genetic studies show the English are as Celtic as the Scots. Sorry.

"We are talking about differences in culture, outlook, language etc. These developed internally, and were not shared the length and breadth of Britain."

Our borders have always been porous. The idea of segregated development is nonsense. The 800 years that Scotland and England co-existed is nothing compared to the '000s of years of habitation on these islands, and even then it was the French who came and took over anyway. These "countries" are constructs every bit as much as Mercia, Bernicia and Strathclyde were constructs. You can cut the pie of Britain any way you want but we're still the same.


287

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 24/06/2009 14:34:54
You're done like a dinner Alexandra.
Don't let the door hit your fat @rse on the way out.
As for the Goldie/Cameron Tories, it appears their true colours are showing through.
And they ain't blue and white.
When Scots can't be Scots for fear of offending an immigrant or the Limeys what's next.
Banning Royal Mile pipers and haggis suppers is the natural progression of this institutionalized anti-Scots racism.
Didn't the English try that one on after the rebellion with kilts and clearances? How did that one turn out?

288

georgia, chloe's mommy,

somewhere outside chicago 24/06/2009 14:35:28
Try living in a community where the indigenous population has been replaced almost totally by immigrants (mostly illegal)...where the business signs are now in Spanish, where the driving test is offered in Spanish (even though road signs are in English, thereby rendering non-English-reading people totally useless on most roads), and where the Mexican flag is not only flown conspicuously everywhere, but on bumper stickers on cars and on rearview mirrors as air fresheners....My opinion is that if it is so wonderful in Mexico, why didn't you just stay there?
289

ENDTHEBBCLICENCEFEE,

24/06/2009 14:36:35
just think if every other european countries people loved their country like some of the people posting here imagine how easily the european parliament could abuse their powers.
290

Andrew Horton,

24/06/2009 14:36:53
It's now thought that MacAlpin was a Pict, with a Gaelic culture, which allowed the Picts and Scots to unite. Neither tribe was conquered by the other.

And when Romans, Vikings, Angles, Jutes, Saxons or whoever conquered various parts of Britain they didn't replace people other than those at the top. The common people simply changed allegiance and were subsumed into new Kingdoms. There would have been additional genetics added into the mix. The same genetic inheritance was because of people were not displaced, not because parts of Britain were conquered.

Regardless most Europeans, including England and Scotland, are of one race. The Picts were a tribe, as were the Scots and Saxons. Gaelic and Celtic were cultures -- one wouldn't have said "I am Celtic." Just as one wouldn't say "I am Western" today.
291

georgia, chloe's mommy,

somewhere outside chicago 24/06/2009 14:40:04
Well, if you can't display the Scottish saltire in the Scottish Library, where can you????? In the USA, you get nicer treatment by police, etc. if it appears you are "patriotic"...All you have to do in most types of competitions, right down to "most beautiful balcony" award in my apartment community (50 pounds, so a nice little bit) is to display the Stars and Stripes of the good ol' USA....The more flags, the better....
292

Luke P,

24/06/2009 14:41:44
342 - a voice in the wilderness. Thank you. Yes, each invasion wave has been like a layer of icing on an already fat cake. I use the term "conquer" in its sense to win over. I had not heard he was Pictish, although one assumes the Picts must have outnumbered the Scots quite heavily. Amazing their language didn't survive.
293

Nevsky;,

Moscow 24/06/2009 14:42:38
338 Luke*

I am afraid it is you who is showing ignorance. England was ruled by overlordship and each of the peasents was allowed a pig..don't pay your dues and your ear was nailed to a tree come market day!

Some attribute this pig farming culture today to the boorishness of some ofthe English and also their complete defference for anyone with even the faintest whiff of nobility about them.

Saxon law became pervasive all over England (thought you might have known this)..it didn't in Scotland!


Unless it escaped you attention Scotland in 1314 (and long before) were fighting aginst the English...they didn't seem to consider themselves buddies and blood brothers and to run around the fields sharing daisies!





294

john z,

edinburgh 24/06/2009 14:43:49
Just a wee point regarding the criticism of gaelic bv by the anti Scottish unionist brigade earlier.

Whether you speak gaelic or not, it IS part of your culture. And, I'll tell you something else too, you should watch BBC Alba, as some of the programmes are quite excellent, and almost all made here in Scotland. Some of the documentaries really give an insight into many aspects of highland, Scottish and Island culture you will simply not find anywhere else on the planet.

Whether the language is gaelic or not, the programmes from BBC ALBA, are really very good.

If only it was on freeview as well, it would probably get an even bigger audience.

Even better, why not start learning gaelic, it's a great language, and there is a link to a beginners online course on the BBC ALBA homepage.

And just think you'll finally know what Runrig have been singing about for the last twenty years.
295

Nova09,

Scotland 24/06/2009 14:44:37
Stamp Marxism / Political Correctness out

Watch - The History of Political Correctness

296

Stewart_in_Oz,

Alexandra Hills 24/06/2009 14:47:13
#327, 329.
I reckon it was due to Mary's French up-bringing in France. The French, and the Yanks, seem to have great difficulty in saying 'Stewart' and pronounce it 'Stuart' as in STOO. Consequently it is spelled incorrectly. However, that is only a hypothesis to be proved.

Of course the Saltire is Racist. It signifies the Scottish Country and Nation so by extension, the Race.

That's why I have a Bumper Sticker on my Japanese car which says above the Saltire 'QLD. SCOTTISH' and one on the rear mudguard of my German motorcycle that says the same thing. QLD, for the uninitiated, is short for QUEENSLAND.


When you see the dilution of society by the 'Multi-cultural' Policies of the Australian government, I could think of many worse races to be identified with than Scottish, intimidatory or not.
297

Nevsky;,

Moscow 24/06/2009 14:48:03
344 Luke*

Undoubtedly a lot of their language did survive...do you know the differences between Irish and Scottish Gaelic for instance?

Learning a lot today...did the Romans win over the people south of Hadrians Wall...or the Gauls...did the Nazis 'win over' Poland?

The geographical part of the UK we call England has been conquered by just about everyone who had a go...not won over....conquered!!

What a nutcase!
298

john z,

edinburgh 24/06/2009 14:48:56
Utter p*sh getting posted above about the english being the same as the scots. Honestly, I've never heard such tosh. Pseudo historical claptrap.

the two languages, Gaelic and English might just give you a clue.

Anyway, Scots should be proud of their flag, and finally get rid of that colonial union rag on Edinburgh castle.
299

FLUB,

a rocky outcrop in eastern central Scotland 24/06/2009 14:49:47
How did an internal workplace management issue mushroom into this hyperbolic exchange?

Miss Miller's memo is probably the standard memo created by the most useless department in any workplace, namely 'Human Resources' which has no concept of proportion or flexibility, and is all about control and protection of management to the detriment of workers.

And, why is that silly woman Christine Grahame getting herself involved in something that is not her business? What an embarrassment!
300

nostress,

grangemouth 24/06/2009 14:53:09
FLUB, I'm dying to know which rocky outcrop you're perched upon...my best guess would be Stirling...
301

bluepict,

24/06/2009 14:58:27
This just shows you what we are dealing with,if any thing,its the Jack that is outdated.

Roll on Independence,then fire Alexandra Millar and all who sail with her!
302

Luke P,

24/06/2009 15:06:54
Someone made the point this thread has gone off topic. Obviously it has. One final point though. Those of you die-hard separatists that want "independence" at any cost - are you seriously considering independence as part of the EU? cos it won't be independence Not remotely. I'm off to Strathclyde to start a rebellion against the Scots... :)
303

Son-of-scotland,

24/06/2009 15:09:55
Serously, scots should just stop buying this wrag, scotlands national newspaper, aye sure it is,

annaversary of Bannockburn, the day we took back our independence. How i look foward to the day we get it back,

National flag - saltire - 1st used for the battle of athelstane, for the scots against ENGLISH opression/ invasion.

(Conservative leader Annabel Goldie blamed Alex Salmond, saying: "Incidents like this are happening because Alex has politicised the saltire. I warned him a year ago that the saltire was our national flag, not his Nationalist symbol.")
no ,
1 its the flag against, union, because the union is forced and unfair.
2. its our national flag, not anyone who decides to move here,
if 100's of scots moved to another country, would we be able to change there flag because it was racist to us. i cant beleive people even listen to this tripe.
304

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 24/06/2009 15:19:33
To be honest, this whole story has been stirred up by this tabloid rag.

The guy was obviously going OTT for reasons known only to him.

If the "display" was in fact OTT, then I suggest that his manager was right to call it inappropriate.

BTW, the Saltire flies in my garden. And very beautiful it is too!
305

,

24/06/2009 15:19:45
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306

Pizzi-Cato,

24/06/2009 15:22:46
"nationalistic displays could 'intimidate non-Scottish colleagues'."

It's the SCOTTISH NATIONAL Library, for goodness sake.

What PC garbage.
307

Andrew Horton,

24/06/2009 15:24:47
#350 john z

"the two languages, Gaelic and English might just give you a clue."

You forgot Scots which mixes your clue up a little.

That one would rear cattle (or cows) but eat beef is a better clue.

#356 Luke P

Yes. At the very least it would give Scotland a greater voice in Europe. However post-independence I would dedicate my time to making the EU more democratic and perhaps even return to its trading-bloc roots. As it is the EU will have to change in such a way, or abolish the idea of nations (i.e. become more like the USA), or people across the bloc will begin to vote parties such as UKIP in larger numbers and the EU would would eventually fall apart. Long term projection anyway. My preference would be a trading-bloc without all the ridiculous totalitarian laws or CFP.
308

,

24/06/2009 15:25:18
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309

Joe Plaice,

24/06/2009 15:29:08
#347 nova9 , (I hope you aren't Kimba). Spot on message. I've just watched this video and although it is long, I heartily recommend it to anyone who wonders why nothing works anymore, we pay more tax than anyone and we get P.C. rammed down our throats every second of the day.

http://tinyurl.com/ko553d
310

john z,

edinburgh 24/06/2009 15:30:05
359 Year Zero

I agree completely with everything you have said.

What I just never can understand, is why a unionist would put down his own country?

By my reckoning, Luxembourg must be one of the smallest countries in Europe, surrounded by the likes of France and Germany. But, it manages very well indeed. In fact it has the highest GDP per capita in the world.

In fact you do not see the people of Luxembourg pleading with France or Germany to take them over because they are too small to survive on their own. The people of Luwembourg are fiercely independent, and are proud of their flag.

Stop believing the unionist pap. Scotland would do better as an independent nation - we just don't need another country like england managing our affairs.

And NOBODY in Scotland should EVER be prevented from taking pride in our flag, the saltire.


311

john z,

edinburgh 24/06/2009 15:37:58
363 Andrew Horton.

Aye maybe so, but you'll still not get the clue will you.

Scots is a derivation from English. Gaelic is not.

312

Luke P,

24/06/2009 15:38:18
361 - are you really accusing others of bigotry? rofl. If Scottish separatism is based on ignorant jingoism then God save Scotland. There is no English oppression plot against Scotland. Scotland's enjoyed autonomy in law, education, religion and sports. How many other states can say that??? Get over it.
313

Lianachan,

Highlands 24/06/2009 15:39:34
#349 Nevsky

Not wanting to drive this even further off topic, but just wanted to respond to your "Undoubtedly a lot of their language did survive...".

Pictish and Gaelic (Irish or Scottish) are down different legs of the same pair of linguistic trousers. There are very few Pictish loanwords in Gaelic, and the spread of Gaelic is entirely unrelated to Pictish. Pictish was a Brythonic language, very similar to that spoken by contemporary Britons in places like Cornwall, Cumbria and Wales. Columba, a Gaelic speaker, famously needed an interpreter at the court of Brude in Inverness, for example. The only remaining Pictish, and "remaining" is stretching it a bit, is to be found in the names of places and individuals.
314

TheDisplacedGlaswegian,

Edinburgh 24/06/2009 15:39:51
#356 Luke P. Scottish independence, regardless of whether we join the EU or whether we take up the Euro or not, is still Scottish independence within the context of the UK. We will have control of our taxes, our resources, our international relationships, our economy, our borrowing, our saving, our defence spending, our involvements (or not) in wars. We will not have a neighbour ten times our size taking control of all our resources and taxes before handing a percentage back and continually letting us think we should be grateful for it.
Try not to be a dick all your life - this story is about a manager suggesting the saltire offends people, even if flown in Scotland.
315

john z,

edinburgh 24/06/2009 15:41:06
Oh for heavens sake, Luke P, would you just shut up. You're talking garbage.
316

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 24/06/2009 15:45:49
334 Grahamski,Falkirk 24/06/2009 14:22:17

From Burke's Peerage & Gentry

http://www.burkes-peerage.net/articles/scotland/esnews/es1101.aspx

"17 November 1745 - Prince Charles Edward Stewart, accompanied by pipers, entered Carlysle following the surrender of the city to the Jacobite Army."

Looks like "STEWART" to me.

317

jane shore,

london 24/06/2009 15:46:08

24 @ 364 most newspapers are on a downward direction with their circulation numbers. More reader are going online, not bothering to buy the printed editions. The Times have just given me £25 of M&S vouchers for buying 21 copies of their newspaper.

I dont quite know why you bother to post on the Scotsman blogs, every hit is recorded & does wonders for The Scotsmans advertising revenues.




318

nostress,

grangemouth 24/06/2009 15:48:50
#360 connaughtboy - sanity at last!
319

ecosseman,

FACTS NOT PROPAGANDA 24/06/2009 15:53:17
WHAT A LOAD OF RUBBISH.

GET A LIFE.

GET REAL.

GO HOME.

HAVE A PINT.

CHILL OUT.

FUNNY,IT TIES IN WITH MURPHY,s VISIT.

ROLL ON THE ELECTION!

320

john z,

edinburgh 24/06/2009 15:54:26
374

How on earth did sectarianism get into this??
321

Luke P,

24/06/2009 16:00:36
Swapping centralised power in London (which it isn't any more anyway) for centralised power in Brussels doesn't sound like independence to me. So who's the dick?
322

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 24/06/2009 16:08:06
Graham

I suggest you concede graciously.

It is Stewart and not as you maintain, Stuart.

Do you have it within you?
323

Geoff,

sa 24/06/2009 16:21:31
364 24-with regard to the Scotsmans falling circulation I think you will find that sales of newspapers generally are falling. In addition as i understand it, the Daily record is right up at the top in terms of circulation!
What would one conclude from this?
Ahem.

On the subject,Scotsmen should be allowed to display the saltire or the union jack freely and without fear of persecution. Both are quasi-official flags and tolerance of diverging opinions is the best way to live in a civilised society. The Lion Rampant is in the strictest sense, a Royal Flag reserved to the sovereign.
324

Geoff,

sa 24/06/2009 16:35:33
Hagbard celine- on the subject of the Saltire blue-my thoughts exactly! The navy blue saltire is a magnificent flag. The official shade looks washed out and insipid. It also seems quite bizarre that the saltire in the UJ is the dark shade whilst without it becomes faded! can u imagine the Scottish rugby team in pale blue jerseys!!
325

,

24/06/2009 16:36:42
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326

,

24/06/2009 16:38:36
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327

The Scotchman,

24/06/2009 16:41:41
"No saltires, please" - I thought it was going to be about the Scotsman office! ;-P
328

,

24/06/2009 16:45:11
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329

Electric Hermit,

24/06/2009 16:47:11
45
Sorry Suzanne

"The Eco Party has a simple and inoffensive flag with a tree on it."

What "Eco Party"?

330

,

24/06/2009 16:47:32
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331

Electric Hermit,

24/06/2009 16:49:47
17
Voldemort

Still peddling that puerile BNP/NF propaganda, I see.

332

Benjamin,

Dresden 24/06/2009 16:53:28
After all these centuries, the English are still afraid of the Scots. They should have stayed where they belonged; IN ENGLAND!
333

Electric Hermit,

24/06/2009 16:54:55
"Scottish Conservative leader Annabel Goldie blamed Alex Salmond, saying: "Incidents like this are happening because Alex has politicised the saltire."

What a dimwitted comment from somebody who should know better. The saltire is an emblem of the nation. A nation IS political. Therefore the saltire is inevitably a political symbol.

334

Robert Burns,

Ms. Miller's Conscience 24/06/2009 16:56:44
Ms. Miller's education is obviously lacking. The Saltire is obviously NOT something which "could be regarded as 'sexist or racist'", because it is a symbol of nationalism of a collective body of races, genders, and ethnicities. Is she "English"?
335

,

24/06/2009 16:59:45
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336

,

24/06/2009 17:04:39
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337

Miss H,

24/06/2009 17:05:30
383 I salute Christine Grahame for displaying her perspiration-free oxters on one of the hottest days of the year.

She looks as fresh as a daisy.

Well done Christine. And never mind the hair jibes. At least you have hair, however eccentrically coifed.

338

Electric Hermit,

24/06/2009 17:06:45
381
Year Zero

"If Scotland becomes independent, who's to say we will choose to join the EU.

Whose to say we won't take a similar route as Norway and Switzerland?"

We won't because we are not stupid enough to opt for being obliged to implement EU directives while having no influence on formulating those directives.

Switzerland pays into the EU budget and, because of numerous specially negotiated treaties, is effectively a member in all but name. But it has no representation in the halls of power.

Norway pays the EU about £200million a year, but receives no EU expenditure in return. Like Switzerland, it has to adopt a large proportion of EU legislation while having no say in what that legislation is.

I would sincerely hope a Scottish government would not be stupid enough to put us in such a massively disadvantaged position.
339

,

24/06/2009 17:08:42
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340

Miss H,

24/06/2009 17:08:51
340 You're joking aren't you?

English speaking people are not indigenous to America.
341

Geoff,

sa 24/06/2009 17:11:05
401-24-thanks for your comprehensive reply. The stats you quote basically reinforce the point i was trying to make-that is that the circulations of ALL scotlands newspapers are falling. Also ,the percentage drop you have quoted shows that the Scotsman has fared better than most in terms of % loss! Thus the constantly repeated statement on theses forums that the Scotsmans circulation is dropping because(implied) it is a "Unionist rag" is not really . Also my "ahem" was that if one holds circulation figures ALONE as a measure of worth then the "News of the World" brigade win hands down. Which brings meto my "ahem' point-would you rather have your nation characterised by a "News of the World" profile or an"observer" profile?
342

Observer,,

Glasgow 24/06/2009 17:11:15
Bringing in the ''should an independent Scotland be in the EU/ Eurozone'' is like debating whether it should be a Republic or Manarchy, or whether indeed it's Stuart or Stewart. A waste of time. We'll decide when we are independent.
343

Observer,,

Glasgow 24/06/2009 17:12:30
412 Obviously Observer wins hands down:)
344

Geoff,

24/06/2009 17:13:37
..should read.."is not really a valid conclusion.
345

Geoff,

sa 24/06/2009 17:15:21
414 Observer-my point entirely! You wouldnt want to post as "News of the World"!! :)
346

TheDisplacedGlaswegian,

Edinburgh 24/06/2009 17:17:25
luke, you are trying to suggest that Scottish independence means we will have less control. I mean, what an argument that is... Surely, you would have to agree that only a dick would argue that?
347

Kenny A,

24/06/2009 17:20:53
I realy do not understand this insanity. In Scotland fly Scottish flags, In England cross of St George. It is insulting to no one to be proud of your heritage or where you live.

Many people from many lands of many coulours and religions fly the emblems of Scotland with pride, as they have either lived there or respect the nation or have friends from there.

In Nepal and India the respectives Armys will dress in Tartan and Play the pipes. Now in Scotland no more pipes, no more tartan and no more national symbals. The last time this happened was after Culloden.

Are they going to ban Gaelic again? Make Hindi, Swahili and Chinese compulsarory for example so the small percentage of the population are not offended. Will all toilets have to point away from Mecca.

Where do you draw the line.

The country I live in, I have two emblems on my car, nthe black Galley of the Isles and the national flag of where I am resident, I also were a kilt when I can and no one is offended.

This PC rubbish is offensive to me, but obviously according to some clowns we have no rights in our own land.

Totaly sickened by this stupidity.

348

jane shore,

london 24/06/2009 17:22:13

Oh dear 24 @ 392 you seem a little naive.. The more hits any newspaper receives online, the more advertisers are interested. Money that would be. & 408 Ms Grahame was born in England, be very careful.
349

Kenny A,

24/06/2009 17:26:57
342 Andrew

I will have to check but believe Kenneth MacAlpine was a Gael who married the daughter of the King of the Picts, unifying a fair part of the nation of Scotland. The various Islands Hebridies, Orkneys, Shetlands and a fair chunk of the West coast mainland took nearly 800 years longer to become part of present Scotland, and I have my doubts at times if we even are regarded as Scottish.
350

Geoff,

sa 24/06/2009 17:28:07
421 Jane Shore-didn't realise she was English. Her Wikipaedia entry makes very interesting reading!
351

Electric Hermit,

24/06/2009 17:29:27
411
Year Zero

"OK, you convinced me. I agree. Independence in Europe!"

I would hope you'd look into the matter for yourself before making up your mind. Or at least ask the likes of those UKIP nutters what would be the cost of leaving the EU. It is not something most of them have even considered. And those that have don't want you to know the facts.

There are basically two options as far as EU membership is concerned. Opt out and be put in the same invidious position of other nations on the fringes. Or fully commit and seek to drive change from within so as to make the EU more democratic and more efficient.

I've never thought of Scotland as the kind of nation that is content to be on the periphery. On the contrary, I see Scotland at the centre of an alliance of smaller nations wielding considerable influence.

352

Geoff,

sa 24/06/2009 17:29:41
sorry 385 Jane shore.
353

Chief King Bonga,

24/06/2009 17:30:55
tut tut,
Almost 420 posts just because someone is so inscure about his "Scottishness" that he has to drape his workspace in his national flag, I wonder if he has tatoo'd his eyeballs tartan yet, surely he would have dont that already, No !
Do any country's people play the victim better than the Scot, I really dont think so !

Jane Shore, trust you to post the best comment of the day !

"My opinion on Scottish Independence is the same as most of my compatriots , according to the polls anyway. We watch on the sidelines & hope you manage it".

Hope you are well Jane Shore, your family too, all is good here in Sodom and Gomorra !
354

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 24/06/2009 17:32:01
Observer,,Glasgow 24/06/2009 17:11:15

You are (as usual) correct.
It is a waste of time.

But, it is Stewart.

LOL.

355

Electric Hermit,

24/06/2009 17:32:29
386
Star spangled bannock

Good point, well made.

356

Observer,,

Glasgow 24/06/2009 17:32:39
I know this thread isn't about the article, but I do think that should an English equivalent have the same *volume* of English flags draped over his desk he would probably be given a similar instruction. It's not the saltire they objected to, it was the *excessive* display.

I think some posters are being far too quick to take offence, but as Jane has pointed it it's an article designed to get poster hits, and it's certainly got 'em.
357

jane shore,

london 24/06/2009 17:39:26

thats all ok Geoff & CkB One of my nerdy cousins has proved (?) that we are descendent of Jane Shore ... & I have no probs with that. A feminist & a survivor.

cheers Peter!
358

Kenny A,

24/06/2009 17:39:41
Luke P

I thought a well thought post but must disagree in part, no offense intended, Scotland as do parts of England and Ireland has a very high proportion of Scandanivan genes. The very far North of Scotland has even weirder genes that resemble those from parts of the middle east. I think that is the Picts amongst our ancestors.

The traditions of the Gael however also state that we came from around modern Syria with time spent in Spain, France and Ireland. Possibly also Egypt althought that is unlikly. I am not sure but believe the Basques of France and Spain may be the most unique race in Europe, both Geneticaly and Linguistacly.

The Celt is not particularly Germanic, but it looks like everyone came from a common ancestor so where is the line drawn.
359

dunedin bully wee 1877,

24/06/2009 17:41:37
A spokesperson from NLS has just appeared on STV trying to justify their actions.

This lady, who was wearing a wee saltire badge to emphasise her Scottish credentials, was taken apart by of all people, Ewan Cameron from Real Radio.

Her case was hardly helped by her admission that she had not actually seen the “offensive” display.

360

Onecoolspot,

edinburgh 24/06/2009 17:46:37
One day soon, Scotland will be free of Westminster. We will be free from the colonial greed that has kept us under the thumb.
Oh yeah the usual commentators sprouting how badly it will be for Scotland to break free and how we will flounder. Oh well, since as they say, Scotland is the scrounging nation of the UK, it supposedly receives the highest per head of population subsidy.
But wait, if that is the case, then why it is that Westminster or indeed those politician in government are so desperate to hold onto Scotland.
Well here is the answer, in a nutshell- OIL.
They say that the oil is not going to last for much longer, so what’s the problem with giving it up to its rightful owners. What is Westminster going to do when the oil runs out anyway, will they then force Scotland to go alone as it is not providing its revenue to pay for its subsidy.
Scotland and all of its inhabitants will then be able to build up our country and preserve our culture or what’s left of it anyway.
This in turn will also then create more Scotland based and indeed Scotland interested political parties who will not worry of have London tell it what to do.
The world has changed and moved on so much in the last 100 years, British politics needs to come out of the dark ages and modernise.
If successful in its move towards full independence, what’s to we do about a Scotland national states person, do we go back and reinstate a king or a queen or do we go down the republican road and have a president.
One thing I will say, for you unionist - if the Westminster mob were really serious about the welfare of Scotland and the UK as whole, then they would have changed the constitution so that the royals would have been known as Kings or Queens of the UK and also the bank of England know as the Bank of UK.
Unless those 2 last points are ever considered, the union is a dead flying duck anyway.

Just my take on the off topic matter this thread has become.
361

Geoff,

sa 24/06/2009 17:46:45
400 for the saltire?
362

Electric Hermit,

24/06/2009 17:47:44
400
Hagbard Celine

"An excellent example of the Nat mindset."

You are not exactly showing your own "mindset" in a particularly good light with such inane comments.

363

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

24/06/2009 17:50:25
"Ms Miller reminded employees of the policy of not having anything on desks which could be regarded as "sexist or racist"."

Would an Englishman/Woman feel intimidated by the presence of a saltire?

Would an Indian or African?

No! I don't think so.

So it is official then...Unionists are a race apart!

It would certainly explain all that positive discrimination and fast-tracking, they have benefited from these part 300yrs.
364

Geoff,

sa 24/06/2009 17:51:53
401 Banner headlines also help with flagging sails!
365

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

24/06/2009 17:54:24
#400 Hagbard Celine,

AM2 was a pioneer of that practice, was he not?



366

Observer,,

Glasgow 24/06/2009 17:56:52
401 You can see all the ads on the site ? This story was in yesterday too. Today they've changed it to include ''Saltire'' and ''Racist'' and et voila like Pavlov's dog we've all bit. The advertisers don't read our posts they just know we make 'em ! It's a selling feature for JP.
367

Electric Hermit,

24/06/2009 18:04:29
409
Observer

"The advertisers don't read our posts they just know we make 'em ! It's a selling feature for JP."

What's your point? We shouldn't post because of advertising?

I don't see that as a very good reason. Much more persuasive is the fact that it is being used as a forum but does not have the necessary facilities.

And the post numbering, which is the only means of referencing other posts, seems very fragile.

368

jane shore,

london 24/06/2009 18:04:33

401 SSB as I understand...yes (?)
369

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 24/06/2009 18:04:34
# 378

"Swapping centralised power in London (which it isn't any more anyway) for centralised power in Brussels doesn't sound like independence to me. So who's the dick?"

You are!

Our current situation is that we are part of the UK, with some devolved powers. The UK as a whole has with the treaty of Lisbon given up some of its sovereign powers to the EU.

If we left the UK but decided to remain within the EU the powers that the EU have over us would not increase but remain the same.

Our representation within the EU would increase. We would gain a seat on the European Commission as equals to all other EU States with a term as President given on a rotating basis.

We would increase the number of representatives from 6 to 12 in the European Parliament.

We would gain a seat on the Council of the European Union, equal to all the other European States, which among other things exercises oversight of the Common Foreign and Security Policy.

So if we did decide we would remain in the EU after independence we would give up no more sovereignty than we have already as part of the UK, but we would gain much more say in how those powers are exercised.

Most importantly of all we would gain sovereignty over those areas of Government policy which are currently in the hands of Westminster including control over fiscal policy.

So your assertion that we would be swapping one master for another is complete rubbish.

370

dunedin bully wee 1877,

24/06/2009 18:05:27
409 Observer

To be fair, this story in also in The Herald, (London) Times, Express, Record, Sun, and Radios Forth and Real.

These are only the ones I have seen, there may be others.
371

Onecoolspot,

edinburgh 24/06/2009 18:06:23
Wtf, does it matter about how many clicks this rag gets or how much money it makes from advertising.

We the readers or members make comments on something that we think is useful.

One thing that has been very difficult is that this original story has deviated away from its original home.

That said, i supposed a little deviation is ok as long as its relevant. Come on, get a grip and leave the money making to the editors and let’s give our views on the topics at hand eh. ffs
372

I should be studying,

Edinburgh 24/06/2009 18:06:44
ho ho look at all the nats gnashing their teeth. People seem to be jumping to conclusions by assuming that the non-Scottish collegues are English. But hey, any chance to start a rant about the English or mention the "butchers apron" or "parcel of rougues". Give me a break. It's obvious that anyone who feels the need to drape not 1, not 2 but 3 large flags and have a tartan chair is so insecure in their nationality that they need to ram their "scottishness" (with a deliberate small s) down their non-Scottish collegues. It sounds like the worker is being deliberatley confrontational and therefore a nasty, petty, small minded individual and there is no place for them in an Independent Scotland.
373

Scot from New Mexico,

Albuquerque, USA 24/06/2009 18:10:51
I haven't had a chance to read all of the comments, so forgive me if this has already been pointed out.

I fail to see how the display of the Saltire is "racist". Last I checked, the damnEnglish, unfortunately were of the same race as the Scots. It's not as if one or the other were black, asian, native american, etc.

Perhaps the word everyone is looking for is "bigoted". Although I also fail to see how using one's own country's flag is bigoted either.

All that being said, I think the real issue was the amount of decoration and someone over-reacted. Which doesn't surprise me....I live in the US. Over-reacting is an art form here!
374

Pilrig,

Livingston 24/06/2009 18:11:56
141 - Grahamski "home end at Hampden is the Rangers end"
of you're a h*n that is.
375

Tartan Viking,

24/06/2009 18:13:11
Have some posts been deleted? The numbering is weird.


376

Electric Hermit,

24/06/2009 18:16:16
412
KampungHighlander

"The UK as a whole has with the treaty of Lisbon given up some of its sovereign powers to the EU."

While I fully agree with most of what you say, I would venture to correct you on this point. Sovereignty is not "given up" or "handed over" as the Europhobes would have it. Rather, sovereignty is pooled. And the pooling of sovereignty is the very essence of democracy. It is what we all do as citizens. We do not insist on exercising total individual sovereignty. That is anarchy. We pool our sovereignty along with that of every other citizen in the institutions which make our complex society viable.

In doing so, we forego the "right" to do just as we please, but gain the advantage that comes when others accept similar constraints in their dealings with us.

The results are not perfect. But the system works. If it didn't, we would not be here.

377

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 24/06/2009 18:16:53
off thread ,but relevant to ALL threads on here.
Well it seems according to OECD Brittania is in the worst state of ALL developed countries.
Also the Governor of BOE concurs UKPLC is screwed.
Apparently the Finance ministers in Ireland and Iceland,are laughing so much they were unavailable for comment.
So perhaps we can now call UK part of the arc of insolvency .
378

Pilrig,

Livingston 24/06/2009 18:20:37
187 - a Lowland bigot writes...
379

TheDisplacedGlaswegian,

24/06/2009 18:23:16
It’s about a manager who didn’t take the guy aside and tell him to get a grip and behave like a mature adult. Instead the manager sent an email that suggested his display could be racist. That’s the issue here.

The display sounds like it was way over the top but it cannot ever be described as racist. I’m sure we’ll find it was a joke between workmates… What is annoying is that there is some fool on here has used this to attack all Scots as being insecure.
If my Italian workmate wanted to do his desk like an Italian restaurant I’d not find it in any way racist. You would only ever suggest that if you disliked the nationality involved.
380

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 24/06/2009 18:25:31

420 Scottish and Proud,Glasgow 24/06/2009 18:16:53

I got the impression that Mervyn King was saying that Brown and Darling have no idea what they are doing.

381

dunedin bully wee 1877,

24/06/2009 18:28:25
417 Pilrig


I believe that I may have been in almost every part of Hampden over my years of attending Scotland games.


I have made this point earlier in this thread, but am happy to make it again.

There is no “home end” at Hampden, although a wee corner in the Mount Florida end is allocated to visiting supporters.


Mind you, my user name may give a clue to the more knowledgeable that I am probably not of the h*n persuasion.

382

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

24/06/2009 18:36:04
#418 Tartan Viking,

This happens when AM2/sm753/Hagbard Celine is having difficulty keeping track of his alter ego's or makes a rash post that is easily skewered...You know for sure when he has done it, when he challenges an opponent to "show where I said that".

Check totals on this thread and read #11, #12 and #13.

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/politics/SNP-steps-up-calls-to.4943454.jp
383

,

24/06/2009 18:38:15
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384

,

24/06/2009 18:39:41
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385

,

24/06/2009 18:41:36
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386

,

24/06/2009 18:42:20
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387

,

24/06/2009 18:44:57
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388

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 24/06/2009 18:50:40
427 The Col. of Monte Cristo,24/06/2009 18:36:04

Your reference proves it.

Smee/Hagbard Celine is guilty as charged.

389

,

24/06/2009 18:50:53
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390

,

24/06/2009 18:54:27
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391

Chief King Bonga,

24/06/2009 18:56:28
janis is 24, your old man by any chance :)

Like the new name by the way.
392

,

24/06/2009 18:56:40
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393

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

24/06/2009 18:56:48
#430 Star spangled bannock,

It could be done to apparently bolster the opinion of your Main Moniker or for amusement.

or because you are stark raving mad.
394

,

24/06/2009 18:58:39
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395

Nigel's brother,

24/06/2009 19:01:36
Einstein knew a thing or two about Scottish Nationalists:

"for those who would joyously march in rank and file, they have already earned my contempt, for they were given a large brain by accident when a spinal chord would have sufficed.”


Albert Einstein
396

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

24/06/2009 19:02:08
#440 24,

That show could run for years...I believe the mythical Hagbard Celine is Immortal.
397

,

24/06/2009 19:02:12
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398

,

24/06/2009 19:02:59
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399

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

24/06/2009 19:04:23
#441

...and those who can't - cut and paste.
400

,

24/06/2009 19:04:41
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401

Media at One,

24/06/2009 19:05:26
I think that any t-shirt saying the word London should be banned - it is racist!
Can we also have a ban on Scottish Football tops, they are not representative of ALL the people of the United Kingdom, blatant racism.
Ok so I am taking the preverbial, but there are leftist nutters out there who actually believe this sh!tt...
Is is fat racism to turn down a big lassie who asks you out to dinner?
402

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

24/06/2009 19:09:11
446 24,

I'm surprised the computer could be bothered counting #441...worthy of LfL.
403

Nigel's brother,

24/06/2009 19:13:30
I'm surprised the computer could be bothered counting #448
404

jane shore,

london 24/06/2009 19:15:50

no chance Peter (437) ...! dont believe poster 24 @ 428 .... no Englishwoman is a great cook.... we just dont do that scene.

Hope you are keeping well in Majorca. I feel for Joanna. no Nadal in Wimbledon, must be difficult for her?
405

Nigel's brother,

Pondering the meaning of originality 24/06/2009 19:16:57
As Einstein said 'In the future some people will quote geniuses and consider themselves original'
406

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

24/06/2009 19:18:18
Has Miror Man returned?
407

Nigel's brother,

24/06/2009 19:18:54
Mirror Man's gonna get you!
408

dunedin bully wee 1877,

24/06/2009 19:19:48
436 24

The main problem with applying that Einstein quote to Unionists is that there is very little evidence that any of them is equipped with a “large brain”.


There is also another apposite quote in this context.


'A shiver ran along the Scottish Labour benches looking for a spine to run up.'
(Oliver Brown circa 1967).

So there we have it, no brains and no spinal chords.

Just about sums up Lard George.
409

Nigel's brother,

24/06/2009 19:20:37
Lard George knew my father
410

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

24/06/2009 19:22:22
#451 Hagbard Celine

He was talking about "tactical post redaction", as you well know.

I hadn't realised that it was a crime...If it is I'd better phone my lawer.
411

Chief King Bonga,

24/06/2009 19:24:07
24 talking no two's again !
412

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

24/06/2009 19:24:41
#454 Nigel's brother,

I'd envoke that other bogeyman...but the censor won't let me.
413

Nigel's brother,

24/06/2009 19:26:59
#461
Fungus?
414

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

24/06/2009 19:29:34
462#

Sammy Davis Jr sang a song about a nicer version of him.
415

Nigel's brother,

24/06/2009 19:32:28
#463 Sammy Davis Jnr sang a song about a nicer version of Fungus The Bogeyma