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'Scots defence industry will be decimated'

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Published Date: 21 March 2008
THE Scotland Office minister, David Cairns, warned last night that independence would "decimate" the country's defence industry. He told The Scotsman that the Westminster government would not be prepared to award lucrative contracts for military hardware to a "foreign country" if Scotland left the United Kingdom.
He also predicted a massive drop in the number of armed forces jobs in Scotland, because of the SNP's ambition to have only a "third-rate" peace-keeping force.

However, the SNP branded his comments as "scaremongering nonsense". It said companies based in an independent Scotland would continue to win work on their own merits.

Mr Cairns's warning came after he met defence industry leaders in Edinburgh and heard their concerns about the possible impact of independence.

He had told a meeting of the Society of British Aerospace Companies (SBAC) Scotland that 40,000 defence jobs north of the Border depended on the Westminster government and that the Ministry of Defence spent £950 million a year in Scotland.

He pointed to the amount of work heading Scotland's way from the £3.9 billion contracts to build two aircraft carriers. Five destroyers are also being built, while four other Royal Navy vessels are being refurbished.

Though the aircraft carriers – which are due to enter service in 2014 and 2016 – will not be wholly built in Scotland, a sizeable proportion of the work will go to workers on the Clyde and Rosyth.

Mr Cairns told The Scotsman he had no doubt independence would "decimate" Scotland's defence industry.

He said: "I stand by that word. I'm happy to say that to you, in terms of (the SNP's] complete unwillingness to say what they would do to replicate the spending we have already made.

"An independent Scotland will not require two aircraft carriers. Immediately, we are talking about a massive reduction in work. The rest of Britain is not going to have its aircraft carriers and Type 45 destroyers constructed in what would be a foreign country, which would be Scotland.

"Quite frankly, they (the SNP] have got to face up to the fact that the defence industry is an enormously important contributor to Scotland's economy."

Mr Cairns said there were 12,640 armed forces personnel in Scotland and 5,860 civilian staff. The presence of Ministry of Defence bases supported a further 12,500 jobs.

In addition, he claimed a further 9,000 jobs in the defence sector in Scotland were supported by MoD contracts awarded in a typical year.

His comments echo concerns already expressed by trade unions during an ongoing inquiry by the Scottish affairs committee at Westminster.

Yesterday's meeting involved about 15 senior industry figures from companies such as Rolls-Royce, BAE Systems, Thales and Goodridge.

Ian Watson, the SBAC director, said his organisation had concerns about the effects of independence.

He said of the meeting: "We have a council of all the captains of industry in our sector. It was a constructive, positive dialogue.

The industry has concerns at the defence sector and they were given to him (Mr Cairns]. He said he would take the message back. There are concerns from the defence sector in Scotland about the impact of any move towards independence."

Angus Robertson, MP, the SNP's Westminster leader, accused the minister of an "extraordinary ill-judged and ill-informed attack".

He went on: "It is just scaremongering nonsense.

"The only jobs under threat from Scotland becoming independent are those of David Cairns and his fellow Scottish Labour MPs. The reality under Labour and London government is that Scotland has lost 4,500 defence jobs in Scotland – David Cairns should be apologising for that.

"And Scotland gets far less of the UK defence procurement budget than our fair share.

"Scotland has some of the best yards and the best workforce in the world, and will get defence contracts on the basis of merit and achievement. An independent Scotland will support a vibrant defence sector, based on conventional forces – just like other small and successful European nations."

According to the SNP's "National Conversation" document, which maps out the party's long-term hopes, "an independent Scotland would have to consider the role and scale of its armed forces" and may choose to prioritise peacekeeping and disaster-relief missions.


Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 21 March 2008 9:47 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

DER FUHRER,

21/03/2008 00:09:11
#2 Scaremongering........

HA HA HA HA

Looks like you are guilty of more inane nationalist hyperbole
2

Toots - Sheila,

Canada 21/03/2008 00:12:14
Surely an Indpendent Scotland would have far more to gain from "rebuilding the nations" that the Americans / English destroy!
We were once renowned for our engineering projects (roads , bridges, dams) that helped to develop struggling nations around the globe. And to think that this time round we could do all of this with the hindsight of less impact to the natural environment and the use of new (greener) technology.
3

J J MAROONER,

21/03/2008 00:13:15
2#

So what happens then?

4

DER FUHRER,

21/03/2008 00:16:33
#5 are you on medication?

What issues would we be dealing with??

Read the article.

Under the SNP we would have no defence jobs and no army.

5

I eat cookies wrapped in scotch tape,

21/03/2008 00:16:42
JHS, AM2!

Had to use the "Find in this Page" function to locate the word.

The decline of our defence industry started when BAE Systems took over Ferranti.

I note that the EE Lightning no longer adorns the entry roundabout to South Gyle from Sighthill.

But I noted that 2 years ago. Like you, I am a master of disinformation.
6

J J MAROONER,

21/03/2008 00:22:13
10#

Not really.
7

DaveK,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 00:23:55
Bye Bye jobs and expertise we had a proud an long history but a fat controller ruined it all.
8

Sanny,

glasgow 21/03/2008 00:24:55
1 AM2
I should think “scaremongering” is the correct description!
Not only do some of our defence contracts go the other European [Foreign] countries, but a major part of our defence spend is on the American Trident which we don’t want or need and it is not under our control!

Further, at present we do not receive a pro rata share of the defence monies but we do contribute. Simple logic should tell you that if we don’t spend our contribution on killing machines then it will be available to spend on more worthwhile projects, like alleviating poverty.

An Independent Scotland will be better off if it turns its swords into ploughshares, metaphorical speaking.
9

DER FUHRER,

21/03/2008 00:32:00
ALEX SALMOND the first minister who wrote to 122 countries highlighting the nation’s opposition to the deployment of Trident nuclear warheads on the Clyde, and his determination to try and block the UK government’s decision to replace Trident.

Rubert mugabe and President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran were just 2 of the people who received letters.

And we are going to trust him with a defence policy??

YEAH RIGHT!




10

DER FUHRER,

21/03/2008 00:33:15
Jackie Priest is in denial.

Poor Jackie. You must really be hurting.

I feel your pain.
11

Fifi la Bonbon,

21/03/2008 00:34:20
I think the Scottish Nationalist Party has to take this one on the chin.

If they were ever successful in separating Scotland from the UK, we would only be left with a ceremonial army, no air force and a fisheries protection fleet to fend off the Spanish. Which is fair enough given the Nationalists' pacifist approach.

The UK would still want to keep its place in the world which means keeping a formidable army and navy. The reason why the naval contracts are procured in the UK as opposed to foreign shipyards is a desire to keep the substantial capital investment in the UK economy. If Scotland is not in the UK then there would be no sentimentality in the MoD or Westminster about the Clyde. The money would go south where there is already surplus capacity, and votes. The last of the Scottish shipbuilding industry would die.

UK military procurement spending is a dividend of the Union. Denying this is just dishonest. Far better to accept that losing this, and the jobs and skills that go with it, would be a concomitant of separation. The Scottish Nationalist Party's challenge is to sell this honestly to the Scottish people, not to deny it as Mr Angus Robertson MP has been doing.
12

Fifi la Bonbon,

21/03/2008 00:39:31
Mr Cairns is wrong to use the word "decimated". That word strictly means that ten per cent would be lost. The impact would be much greater than that. Ministers of the Crown really ought to be more precise with their use of language.
13

DER FUHRER,

21/03/2008 00:40:26
#20 You make some great points.

It is the dishonesty of the SNP that irks me.

No matter what comes out in the wash, The SNP will always deny it.

Their 'local income tax' plan was dependant on SNP ministers securing access to £400m of council tax benefit, which the UK government always said would no longer be paid under the SNP's new scheme.

The SNP always knew this was going to happen but would never admit it (and still won't).
14

democrate,

21/03/2008 00:45:28
see you at 20, Fifi - you need to get a wee grip on yourself, for the following reasons:-
(a) The Scottish people will, come independence, decide the nature and extent of the military presence they wish their nation to have around the world;
(b) The Scots are not, by nature, aggressive- Scots are more naturally inclined to be peacemakers, neither aggressors nor appeasors;
(c)Scots soldiers are within the UK far more vulnerable than their military colleagues; Scots military are open to the suggestion that they are becoming proportionately, cannon-fodder;check the stats. Lions and Donkeys etc.
15

J J MAROONER,

21/03/2008 00:49:08
26#

"NOT BY NATURE AGGRESSIVE" - remember the "women from hell".
16

DER FUHRER,

21/03/2008 00:50:04
#24 yes Jackie you are hurting.

You may have your fat hero in power in the toy Parliament in a minority goverment.

But you do realise (I hope) that Scotland is run by Westminster.

All the important decisions are taken there.

Holyrood is good for passing bills on snares, pardoning witches and trying to transport some chessmen back from a museum.

But thats it I am afraid.
17

DER FUHRER,

21/03/2008 00:52:57
And remember Jackie.....

"They may take away our lives, but they'll never take our freeeedoooomm".

I bet that makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand on end.
18

democrate,

central Scotland 21/03/2008 00:54:00
28~ I do not follow your point; please do tell.
19

subrosa,

21/03/2008 00:54:55
# 20 The UK would still want to keep its place in the world which means keeping a formidable army and navy.

Formidable? Not any more, our forces are leaving in droves. Didn't you read about the fact that army bosses want to recruit Poles to the British Army because they can't get enough British?

As for Westminster. Last month they sold off Almondbank, the best engineers in Europe. The price was a pittance. Shameful.

We musn't give in to this man's ravings - he's desperate to keep his job and all the perks but he sees the writing on the wall.
20

subrosa,

21/03/2008 00:56:40
# 28 JJ

No I don't remember 'the women from hell'. Met a few of the men though.
21

The Strategist,

21/03/2008 00:56:49
Hmmmm.. Why are the RAF's latest air to air tankers based on a Boeing aircraft? Why is the Royal Navy buying the Lockheed JSF for their new aircraft carriers? Why is one of the main partners in the carrier programme a French company? Why is the radar for the Tornado being built by an Italian company in Edinburgh? Why are all our helicopters now built by an Italian owned company?

The Govt has gone out of its way to not stand in the way of foreign companies buying UK defence companies and has shown it will buy from anywhere in the world. In fact it has even sanctioned the idea of BAe transferring it's HQ to the USA and becoming a US company if it decides to do that.

Against this background for Cairns to say that an independent Scotland would get no more defence work is patently petty minded nonsense.

22

J J MAROONER,

21/03/2008 00:58:16
31#
Take it you have no military background or you would know what I mean.

32#
Good morning subrosa how are you.
23

,

21/03/2008 00:59:24
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24

Senga Jean,

Scotland 21/03/2008 01:06:09
Unionists are not traitors to Scotland? What do you call someone who celebrates outsiders running your country and pretends that you would be worse off using the abilities of your people and exceptionally rich national resources for the betterment of your country?
25

J J MAROONER,

KIRKCALDY 21/03/2008 01:07:38
subrosa#

You are right about them leaving in droves, when I joined the Army we had 60 Infantry Battalions and an overall strengh of nearer 200,000, when I left 25 years later we were fast approaching 100,000 and with more commitments.

# The women from hell was a German description of kilted Scottish Soldiers in WW1.
26

,

21/03/2008 01:09:33
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27

McGubbligan,

Oz 21/03/2008 01:09:46
It is no accident that warmonger ex-priest Cairns describes Scotland as "foreign".
It just goes to show the "Scottish" Labour mindset with regards to Scotland.
28

karinxx,

21/03/2008 01:12:44
do you know what i cant be bothered even replying to the complete and utter nonsense of this so called paper or its supplicant unionistas. Im just not going to read it anymore i advise all other nationalists to do the same. if you have to do anything just put in the comment box. I dont read this paper its rubbish read the herald.
29

Yoohoo,

21/03/2008 01:17:45
Sounds more like a threat to me. If the Scots dare to support independence, then Scottish labour mps and ministers will punish the Scottish people and deprive them of their right to develop their economy and bid for contracts in the same way that all other 'foreign' entities do.

30

Senga Jean,

Scotland 21/03/2008 01:17:57
Decimated? So a 10% downturn. Not much then.
31

subrosa,

21/03/2008 01:23:01
# 39 JJ Good morning to you.

Thanks for the explanation about 'the women from hell'. Obviously I'm not quite old enough to recall the saying :)

Yes they're leaving in droves because many feel they can't do their jobs as efficiently as they would wish, owing to the fact they don't believe in what they are doing.

Of course, the disintegration of the Scottish regiments also has something to do with it. That took away pride and honour and replaced them with insult and inferiority.
32

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 21/03/2008 01:24:33
DER FUHRER#...IF WESTMINSTER DECIDED TO BRING IN L.I.T. WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO ALL THE COUNCIL TAX BENIFIT MONEY?
33

Jockdogma,

UK 21/03/2008 01:29:25
You can't have it both ways. The SNP must decide if it wants to be anti-war democracy that it suggests, or a nation which does produce weapons via BAE and naturally profits from it. I think the Labour comments are nonsense but at some point the SNP has to swallow the bitter pill or address the economic implications of withdrawing from the arms business. Leadership at the end of the day is never easy and Salmond needs to prove his worth by grasping the nettle and dealing with it
34

J J MAROONER,

21/03/2008 01:30:57
47#

Not old enough!!! - so your not 110 like me?

Anyway I will just get the Nurse to wheel me to my billet in this this old Soldiers home, catch you later subrosa.
35

subrosa,

21/03/2008 01:42:30
# 50 JJ - Of course I'm not 110. I started going backwards at 55. They say the elderly revert to childhood so I intend to do so. Sleep well don't forget the cocoa.

# 51 Jock

Really? He's wasting his time with me then Jock - I've a drawer full of brushes of various sorts.
36

Edward,

21/03/2008 01:42:39
There must be a Labour party conference about to happen.
'Cairns told The Scotsman that the Westminster government would not be prepared to award lucrative contracts for military hardware to a "foreign country" if Scotland left the United Kingdom'
Typical spiv Cairns comment. First of all its not about Scotland 'leaving' the United Kingdom. If Scotland became independent, then there would be NO United Kingdom. Why this thick pratt cant get it into his thick scull, defies all logic!
Second point is that Scotland pay a large chunk of its revenue intu the UK defence. So instead of paying it into the London treasury, an independent Scotland would keep the billions spent and spend it on its own Defence force. It would have its own contracts.
Cairns is only concerned about one thing and thats Cairns own empoyment!

37

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 21/03/2008 01:43:37
"An independent Scotland will not require two aircraft carriers. Immediately, we are talking about a massive reduction in work."

How many jobs could the billions of pounds saved on two aircraft carriers for the glorification and ego of Gordon Brown be used to create?

Who does Scotland need defending from anyway? Only one country has invaded her in the last 500 years, and that was England.
38

Edward,

21/03/2008 01:49:41
'Mr Cairns said there were 12,640 armed forces personnel in Scotland and 5,860 civilian staff. The presence of Ministry of Defence bases supported a further 12,500 jobs'
Guess what Cairns, after Independence, they would still be there! Scotland would be entitled to a sizable slice of the Navy, Air Force and Army equipment, after all we paid for it!
It would be interesting what a rump England would do with 2 very large aircraft carriers.
Just to repeat and correct Cairns. Independent Scotland = No United Kingdom
The disaloution of the UK, would make an Independent Kingdom of Scotland and an Independent Kingdom of England and Northern Ireland
39

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 21/03/2008 01:56:37
Not an unreasonable point from Jockdogma @ # 49.

I think some perspective is needed though JD!

To suggest the SNP is anti-war because it opposses ,like most other countries governments do, the false premise upon which we went to war in Iraq is incorrect.

If Scotland became Independent tomorrow it would take several years for Scottish defence contractors to work through current contracts and obligations. There would be no overnight change.

Scots make up a hefty part of the British military. 1 in 4 facing the 'Taliban' in Afghanistan are Scots (a wonderful union dividend). It would take a decade for the Scottish military to seperate from the British. There will be no overnight change.

Cairn's comments - designed to scare the masses with half-truths and deception should be seen through a political paradigm, they are purely anti SNP propoganda. The notion that Scotland would be left a defenceless and jobless runt is ridiculous.

SNP Defence Policy (through design or otherwise) would be a gradualist and considered change from the Status Quo.

Cairns comments will hopefully be seen in the same light as other Unionist scare stories. Living In Australia I haven't received a 5000 tax bill for voting SNP, how are the rest of you coping with it?
40

,

21/03/2008 02:01:13
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41

Jock Politicaljunkie,

Glasgow 21/03/2008 02:04:59
I don't think our Defence Industry will be decimated any more than it already has by 18 years of Blue Tory and 11 years of Red Tory rule.

And, as for suggesting that an Independent Scotland will not have an Army, Navy and Airforce, what utter rot.

When Scotland negotiates her Independence with London part of the negotiations will be the various carve ups of UK assets in which we have a share. We will have an entitlement to a percentage of those assets in relation to our population. Those assets will include units of and hardware of the military.

I also know that a least one study has already looked into this potential event. No doubt a reorganisation of those assets designated to Scotland may be required but to claim that such a military entity would be third rate is frankly insulting from David McChattering Cairns.

The Norwegians have a smaller population than Scotland but are still valuable members of NATO who spent the entire Cold War on the Front Line. (And if George Dubya keeps on in turn ignoring and insulting the Russians, that one could get a bit tense again!) The Norwegians have a Defence Industry that includes both design and build capability. The Penguin Missile is one of theirs, sold to 7 other nations including the Americans! Clever wee thing it is too - 55km range and the only Infra Red Seeker, ie. chaff won't fool it.

So keep on Chattering David, I love it, and the people know that when you lie your lips move.
42

Keren, It's time,

21/03/2008 02:08:39
Isn't it the 3rd or 4th time we have read the same 'story' in The 'Scotsman (sic) this year?

How long will it be b4 we read it again and what does it achieve?

What next? 'You will never see your relatives in England again' or 'you'll be banned from the Eurovision Song Contest?'

Pathetic stuff is that all they really have left??
43

Jock Politicaljunkie,

Glasgow 21/03/2008 02:15:15
OH YES PLEASE, ban us from Eurovision!!!
44

,

21/03/2008 02:19:17
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45

Rozz Fyffe,

Scotland 21/03/2008 03:03:10
well thart means 90 % survive
46

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

21/03/2008 03:16:10
Do EU competition laws not allow for fair competition in tendering. They must be really desperate to keep us now our oil is being priced over $100 until 2016.

47

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 04:01:39
So Cairns is stating that the remnants of a broken UK, will not need a decent port to locate their share of the super dooper aircraft carriers, because right now they do not have any where in England or Wales that is big enough to hold them. Cairns and the Britnat Numpties talk sheite.

One more point about UK Defence Contracts. The UK will not have the benefit of Scottish Oil, Fishing and our economy of 80 Billion quid a year. They also face the prospect of losing 9% of their defence forces equipment that Scottish Taxes paid for. As a matter of Fact Scotland will have a very nice defence force, with the greatest fighting men and women this planet has produced.Of course Trident will have to go, but I am sure there are many countries who would be interested in a Nuclear Deterrent with low mileage. In other words Cairns and all you other Numpties who love Westminster. Shut it because we will be the wealthy neighbours of a Broken UK that was stuffed for many years already. It is finished, gone, kaput, so get your bags packed for southern England where your hearts are.
48

,

21/03/2008 04:35:22
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49

MJG,

New York 21/03/2008 05:42:16
Just because David Cairns can't use "decimate" correctly does not mean the sub who wrote your headline should follow suit.
Tsk, tsk, Scotsman.
50

Pilrig.,

Livingston 21/03/2008 06:11:56
29 - in other words, us ignorant, indigenous Jocks are incapable of making the big decisions.
51

Geoff,

sa 21/03/2008 06:18:38
20 Fifi la Bonbon-good comment.
56 Edward-what about Wales!?



52

Richardinho,

21/03/2008 06:20:00
Seriously, what is David Cairns' job?
53

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 21/03/2008 06:22:30
Dougie Douglas (#36) has this one nailed.
54

Geoff,

sa 21/03/2008 06:24:30
55 Rev S.Campbell-"only one country has invaded Scotland in the last 500 years and that was England."
Strictly speaking,not true-what about the Germans during WW2-the Battle of er,BRITAIN?
55

Artistwally,

Perth 21/03/2008 06:33:20
The organisation No. 20 tried to name is the Scottish NATIONAL Party.
The MOD (Merchants of Death) has already sold off DARA at Perth and 350 jobs to a foreign power - Canada's Vector!
Time to turn off the oil, gas, water and electricity that flows over the border and see how an independant Enland survives!
56

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 06:37:40
After the disasters of the 20th Century, the constitution of the unified Federal Republic of Germany restricts its military spending on defence.

However, Germany still spends a considerable part of its GDP on subsidising the now reduced NATO forces in Germany, multi-national European Union defence equipment, and on its own miltary requirements.

Since the mid-1950s its German-speaking neighbour Austria, along with Denmark, France and Sweden have all benefited greatly from German defence contracts to the tune of billions of marks/euros for raw materials, jet engines, I.T. and optical parts.

Two of Germany's biggest providers of military equipment are still the US AND the UK!
57

Geoff,

sa 21/03/2008 06:39:55
As a Unionist I think there are two issues here.Firstly whether or not a break up of the United kingdom would be detrimental to Scotlands Defence Industry- as a Unionist I would not introduce this argument into the debate. No matter what most of you say,Independence or not is overwhelmingly a decision of the heart. Its not,one way or tother going to convert Nats to Brits. It might dissuade some fence sitters from opting for Independence, but if economic factors are your thing then there are Nat counter arguments around oil. The second issue is a post Independence Scotland and her future Defence policies. Its seems that the SNP are a broadly pacifist organisation-who's going to attack "little old Scotland"? This is dangerous and naive thinking. If Europe splits into a loose grouping of pacifist nations then who will deal with the big bad Wolves? The world is not the place you want it to be-led by thinking caring people-you will always have to factor in the Hitlers and Stalins and Husseins. In Britain,for this and other reasons,we are much better united.
58

Richardinho,

21/03/2008 06:49:54
#76 'No matter what most of you say,Independence or not is overwhelmingly a decision of the heart.'

'The world is not the place you want it to be-led by thinking caring people-you will always have to factor in the Hitlers and Stalins and Husseins. In Britain,for this and other reasons,we are much better united.'

So in other words, it's irrational fear which makes you a unionist.
59

Geoff,

sa 21/03/2008 06:57:54
77 Richardinho-no,its not irrational fear that makes me a Unionist.
60

Richardinho,

21/03/2008 06:59:04
#78
Yes it is. That's according to your words. We should all be unionists in case Hitler attacks us again. that's an irrational fear.
61

madrab,

edinburgh 21/03/2008 07:05:49
Given the poor job that David Cairns does supplying our soldiers overseas I would have thought he would like to keep quiet over this.

Maybe all Scottish soldiers should be brought home now and we can let English soldiers die through poor supply in the illegal war in Iraq?

When we do become independent surely the Scottish Government will be spending money on our armed forces.
62

Suomi,

Salo;Finland 21/03/2008 07:07:30
A more appropriare word for Cairns behaviour is bullying.Threats are now replacing dialogue.A bit primative really in the modern Europe where smaller countries than Scotland are emerging as full members of the European Union and growing their economies.It is interesting to see countries such as Slovenia taking the presidency of the EU.

Solutions that were appropriate for security and the economy in 1707 have no currency in 2008.The world has changed and Scotland needs to join it.Scotish companies wiil be succesful if they are skilled and competative.Mr Cairns also needs to learn that Europe is bigger than the countries within the British Isles.I have a Finnish wife and we have 3 daughters who live in 3 countries(Scotland,Holland and Finland).As a family,although we value independance for our respective countries,we are very international.Most Europeans would be appalled by the narrow inward looking and aggressive behaviour od Mr Cairns.
63

madrab,

edinburgh 21/03/2008 07:13:19
Geoff, there is only one country at the moment willing to illegally invade others territory, and it's not Germany.

Have they found any WMD in Iraq yet?

When will you be invading Iran?
64

Richardinho,

21/03/2008 07:13:30
Geof the unionist seems to think that England would depend on Scotland in any future wars. Yet David Cairns says that England would cut it's link with the Scottish defence sector.

So which is it?
65

scottish person,

paisley 21/03/2008 07:19:58
David who!
66

madrab,

edinburgh 21/03/2008 07:23:44
Coming to think of it, didn't a recent official revue decide that the Scotland Office served no real purpose?

Why are we still paying this man's wages ( and probably his mortgage and family's wages too given the record of other ministers )?
67

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 21/03/2008 07:24:24
Ha ha ha ha, this is truly the most pathetic one from Cairns yet.

(A) If we're independent he'll be out of a job.

(B) What's to stop the defence sector in an independent Scotland operating on a global scale?

(C) Will the remainder of the one time UK, invest in new yards down south or simple look elsewhere for the cheapest deal, Poland, South Korea, Malta!

(D)What next, Cairns attacks the Scottish Whisky, Shortbread adn Porridge industry saying England will buy from elsewhere?

You get the feeling that Cairns, the Baron, Browne, Brown and Darling are trapped in Dante's Inferno in a perpetual circle jerk.
68

Geoff,

sa 21/03/2008 07:24:24
79 richardinho-no it isnt.
69

Stephen fae Scotland,

San Francisco (& Edinburgh) 21/03/2008 07:26:33
Hey #77 you are way off base. Fear does not make me unionist.

I am proud of my countries - Scotland and Great Britain. I am proud of an association with our English, Welsh and Ulster neighbours that allowed us together to change the course of world history and leave an enduring legacy of language, culture, values and laws.

The Gnat demagogues want to make Union intolerable for all concerned by being such an irritating shower - beyond that, expecting the rest of Great Britain to continue to push work north of such a hostile border is beyond naive. Its bordering on criminal misrepresentation to the Scottish people.

Gnats that want to restore the seventeenth century, independence and poverty, are just the people to do it!


70

Citylocal Fife,

Citylocal Fife News 21/03/2008 07:28:27
Some common sense please.

Our taxes pay for these carriers etc, so if we were independent we would not pay £billions in taxes for warships and other 'items' we neither need nor want. Therefore we would save that cash. Moving on, we then sell our 'engineering services' to other other countries and make a profit.

The net profit in the construction of military hardware comes from selling it to other people, who keep conveniently 'breaking' it, or have someone break it for them and therefore need to buy more.


Yours etc

Angus Whitton
71

Richardinho,

21/03/2008 07:34:56
#88

'Gnats that want to restore the seventeenth century, independence and poverty, are just the people to do it!'

There you go again-another irrational fear, mixed in with a bit of conventional Scottish cringe and self-hatred.
72

Stephen fae Scotland,

San Francisco (& Edinburgh) 21/03/2008 07:39:45
#90 - common sense? lets try some maths -

If Scotland currently benefits from jobs and contracts in a sector that serves the whole UK (as it does) - and if if benefits out of scale to the population (taxpaying population) of the UK as a whole (as it does) - then you do the math as to what happens if the UK jobs and contracts go away.

Some hope that any gnat will/can 'do the math'. Facts are not their forte - as is amply proven by those in this string... Its all about emotions - including hatred.
73

Stephen fae Scotland,

San Francisco (& Edinburgh) 21/03/2008 07:45:02
#91 "Self-hatred" not a bit of it - its the half wit Gnats that I hate. The Scottish Taliban that try to make anyone else feel less Scottish because they don't accept Gnat orthodoxy.

"cringe" - again - silly sophistry. Scotland WAS an impoverished country in the seventeenth century and no amount of revisionist history changes that fact.

Nothing irrational about my fear of you head-cases. You are bent on destruction, distortion and delusion. But I calm my fears because like all fevers - you will pass...
74

Stephen fae Scotland,

San Francisco (& Edinburgh) 21/03/2008 07:52:30
Hey #93 - you talking about me? Shame on me for traveling eh? Weel whit aboot yer big bleather Sean Conolly - noo talk aboot a 'non dom'!

I am not only UK/Scottish domiciled - but I pay taxes in Scotland! Mor than I can say for baldy-bain who lives in Spain!

Anyway, what the hang does that have to do with anything? Yet another basis for the McTaliban to claim to be the only Scots - the real Scots - the common Scots - the... well we all get the picture....

I don't lose one iota of my Scottishness because I hold you lot in contempt - quite the contrary Mr. McTaliban.
75

Ian C,

People's Democratic Republic of Fife 21/03/2008 07:52:35
UK will not give defence business to foreign country. Why then does the UK currently do exactly that from the US, Canada, France, Belguim, Israel and a host of others.

We had similar "male cow manure" in 1992 when the Tories (then in power) said "If the SNP win the election they will close Rosyth Naval Base". The SNP did not win, the Torie did and they then closed Rosyth Naval Base and transferred the Trident programme to Devonport (a disaster) to buy English votes.

Scotland on it's own could replace all the jobs lost in defence (they are ALL employed by English companies anyway) with their own defence jobs and others.

They is the usual crap we hear from Labour and the Tories. We have to beware more of the Scots with Ebglish shoes than the English (similar to 300 odd years old). Nothing changes.
76

Bishi731,

Scotland 21/03/2008 07:53:04
The minister displays a frightening lack of knowledge about defence procurement when he states that "The rest of Britain is not going to have its aircraft carriers and Type 45 destroyers constructed in what would be a foreign country.." The likelihood is that Scotland would not become independent much before 2011, assuming the SNP gets an independence mandate towards the end of the current parliament. The aircraft carriers will start construction next year and by 2011 the first will be well on the way to final assembly. Does he seriously think that this work could then be transferred to another UK yard? It has taken the MOD years to agree the construction arrangements for these ships and anyone who thinks that this can be changed easily and quickly is seriously deluded or more likely making mischief with the facts.
77

David Macintosh,

weert 21/03/2008 07:55:08
I have never read so much utter rubbish in my life. The truth of the matter is that Scotland is an intricate part of NATO's Air Defence Strategy and as such would be a fully fledged member of NATO. The Air Bases in Scotland would not close overnight if at all. The most likely outcome would be that they became NATO bases as opposed to British. That is something that should be welcomed as the workforce would immediately be payed NATO wages as opposed to the pittance they are now paid by the British government. The other plus point would be that an Independent Scotland would be receiving rent for the fore said Air Bases which we dont receive at the moment. As for the defence industry, as an independent member of NATO, we would be in line for our fair share of NATO defence contracts. If you are producing the equipment that NATO requires, and of a quality that they require contracts will come. In fact, we might find that we receive more work as a result of being free from Westminster's intransigent views on defence. The European Union would also be more likely to place defence orders with an independent Scotland who were FULL MEMBERS of the said Union as opposed to a Britain that cant make up its mind whether its in or out. It shames me to hear fellow Scots talk our country down. Its time we recognise these people for what they are "QUISLINGS" shame on them.
78

Richardinho,

21/03/2008 07:58:00
#94

I don't doubt that you nurture this little fantasy that Scots were primitive savages just waiting for the English to civilise them.
It's typical stuff from you self-haters.

Of course it's completely irrelevant what Scotland was like in the 17th century and suggesting that we're going to go back to then is simply an irrational scare tactic which does you no credit whatsoever.

The main reason for the joining the union on Scotland's part was access to Englands market. The fact that for the first few years this access was denied and this promise broken is by the by.
The reality is within the European Union and across the world with various international agreements, we have free trade, hence the purpose of the union in the first place is irrelevant.

Just as this suggestion by des Browne's is. If England wants to turn it's back on a mutually beneficial relationship with Scotland then so be it. I doubt they will, that would be self defeating on their part.
79

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 21/03/2008 08:01:54
#94 Troll, we don't hate you, you only hate yourself.

The only person that makes you "feel less Scottish" is yourself.
80

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 08:01:55
Scotland would lose a lot but also not have to spend a lot, swings and roundabouts again.
We would not have to pay for son of Trident and illegal wars, personally we'd rather go with independence and take our chances on defence jobs. Scotland's share of defence research and forces is usually assumed to be well below what it should be. After all we have about 120 admirals in the Navy, are a dozen of them stationed along with their backup staff in Scotland ?
81

Copper,

Falkirk 21/03/2008 08:02:54
When we stop the Labour Party Joke O'Donnells selling our ferry building contracts to the Poles and others we can keep our industry employed
82

,

21/03/2008 08:03:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
83

,

21/03/2008 08:03:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
84

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 21/03/2008 08:05:24
#104

Dribbling.
85

Richardinho,

21/03/2008 08:06:00
Anyone able to make any sense of #104?

Did I mention before that I thought he was irrational?

86

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 21/03/2008 08:13:35
But, what if he is right? Lets reflect on it.

The requirements of the Scottish Army, Navy and Air forces in an "independent" Scotland are insufficient to retain the type of capabilities that the UK requires at present and I don't believe an indepedendant England would be inclined to sustain and independent Scotlands armaments industry in preference to their own. Common sense must prevail and the shallow tide of nationalism must be revealed for the weaknesses in their arguments.

Stop Nationalist Propaganda now before its too late.
87

eric,

Lothian 21/03/2008 08:13:53
Mrs Thatcher Gave the 2 steel Plants a few years to pove why they should not be closed down.Ravenscraig outstripped the Plant down south.She still chose ravenscraig to close!
88

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 21/03/2008 08:14:02
#106 Don't know where he gets this notion that Independence supporters would hate Peter Sellars. I thought Sellars was brilliant in 'Being There' one of my top fifty films.
89

thinking,

Scotland 21/03/2008 08:14:41
Why would any nation give a foreign country its defence contracts?
#4
'We were once renowned for our engineering projects (roads , bridges, dams) that helped to develop struggling nations around the globe'
Once being the operative word. Where are those skills now?
90

Stephen fae Scotland,

San Francisco (& Edinburgh) 21/03/2008 08:14:50
#106 - and your opinion is one that is held in such high regard by who?

Funny how anyone that pokes at the Gnats with even a wee stick gets them all buzzing. Out comes the abuse and personal remarks "scum" "quizling" "self-hater", bleather bleather bleather.. all no doubt to the the strains of 'cap in hand', 'flower of Scotland' etc.. swimming around inside various feverish heads in overly tartan clad attic bedrooms at mammy's hoos! And all that is supposed to pass for contemporary Gnat political discourse! Ha!

Get over yer sels.
91

scottish person,

paisley 21/03/2008 08:14:58
#103 well said. Stephen fae scotland, away tae yer bed. You are posting nonsense!
92

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 08:16:41
Of course here we have yet another New london Labour Minister telling us yet another doom and gloom story on Independence without presenting a shred of evidence to support his wishful thinking. For one think the UK will no longer exist so neither will UK defence contracts. The companies will have to deal with both Scotland and England on an individual business basis.
Just another piece of sh*t nonsense from a corrupt sleazy dishonest party discredited even within its own ranks.
93

www.r-o-a-r.org,

Dundee 21/03/2008 08:21:15
More Labour LIES - SCARE TACTICS.

Anyone believing this must have strings attached to their shoulders and the labour lie masteres are pulling your strings.

Anyhow they tried this lie at the election and it did not deter Scotland voting in the SNP and Alex Salmond.

Labour are hoping that if they repeat a lie often enough - some of the much will stick!
94

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 08:21:55
1

I am surprised there is anybody gullible and stupid enough left to take a point of view from a sourse already so polluted with corruption and deceit at face value and try and argue its merits.
What kind of a moron would that have to be??
95

Richardinho,

21/03/2008 08:22:34
'But, what if he is right? Lets reflect on it.'

you mean as opposed to using scare tactics in a cheap propaganda attack on the SNP?

The 'if such and such get voted in I'm leaving the country ' has to be one of the most common unfulfilled threats since the universe began.

The thing is, not only is the threat not carried out if the said action happens, but quite often the threat is carried out if the action DOESN'T happen!

As someone has pointed out regarding the Rosyth betrayal.


Let's look at this rationally. An independent Scotland would still have a mutually advantageous relationship with England. That may even include certain tacit agreements over defence. Whilst it would make it less likely that Scotland would get contracts as a result of political wheeling and dealing (which is a lottery anyway), Scottish firms would have to compete in terms of quality and in price-no bad thing imho.

the question we must ask is this; Why should England's relationship with Scottish companies be any different to that of other companies around the world?
Other than that England is likely to be more favorable to Scottish companies for obvious reasons of convenience, there is no reason why Scottish companies should be treated differently-which is what Des Browne and the unionists are asking us to think.
96

Dr K G,

Jeddah 21/03/2008 08:22:56
Surely "the market" would influence who got the defence contracts, whether the small independent state just north of England or another European bidder? For once, look at the Americans for common sense: the US Air Force recently chose EADS (European) over Boeing for advanced aviation needs. Furthermore, EU competition law would not allow an independent England to reject a Scottish bid on solely emotional-historical grounds.
97

Stephen fae Scotland,

San Francisco (& Edinburgh) 21/03/2008 08:23:15
#116 - Answer: someone that couldn't spell?
98

steve52,

Kinfauns 21/03/2008 08:23:30
#107...Yes let us reflect. Does not the UK buy many of its military hardware from foreign countries at present? Look at the Apache helicopter for example which came from our good friends in the USA......bloddy things dont work.

This is nothing more than politics. One recalls the moving of work from Rosyth by the conservatives just to secure votes down south. Further proof if any were required that we lot up here are not given a second thought.

So why would Scotland require an Army, Navy and Airforce? Pray tell who we are going to be invaded by?

This is nothing more than scaremongering by people who do not wish to lose their over paid jobs and would not have their noses in the trough as they currently do.
99

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 08:23:39
114

Funilly enough Scotland is 1/10 the size of the UK so we would be getting 100% value on his own calculations.
Thats a fair split.
100

Allan Murray,

Liverpool 21/03/2008 08:24:00
reply:
Surely an Indpendent Scotland would have far more to gain from "rebuilding the nations" that the Americans / English destroy!

Just need to correct the above statement. It was a Scottish lead Labour Party that took us to war and destroyed Iraq. Those Scottish mp's T Blair/G Brown and the rest of the cabinet which where mainly Scottish.
So saying it was the American and the English is a bit rich and Racist something that the Scottish are very good at these days is be Racist towards the English.
101

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 21/03/2008 08:25:14
The real motivation for Cairns outburst has nothing to do with defense jobs or Scottish independance,it is about politics.At the moment the Labour vote in England is in decline.Opinion polls suggest that they might lose the next election for the Westminster parliament.In the past they could depend upon their core support in Scotland,but now that is under threat.The SNP are suging ahead in the opinion polls and Alec Salmond is a highly popular FM,even prefered by a majority of Labour supporters (&&% in the last survey).In the face of that desperation and survival dicates deperate measures.Thus the bullying and the threats.

One more thing.People on this site are referring to the break up of the UK.This error is often made by the media so I'm not surprised that a lot of people think that is what independance is about.The UK refers to the union of crowns,not the merging of parliaments.It is not SNP policy to disolve the union of the crowns,although some people may want this.Independence is about parliaments of equal status and collaboration with other nations in areas of mutual interest.Winnie Ewing identified this concept in 1967 when she said:

STOP THGE WORLD SCOTLAND WANTS TO GET ON
Her statement is even more relevant in the modern Europe.It is ouward looking and very international
102

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 08:25:38
119 The troll has a new logon.

The only thing not wrong with his post is the spelling.
103

brownlie,

glasgow 21/03/2008 08:26:03
I must say I'm intrigued by the colloboration between Der Fuhrer and Fifi la Bon - some things never change.
Reading the previous posts it seems that
we need England to protect us from invasion
and we are in danger of imminent danger of being invading by Spain. I hope none of us Scots have booked holidays there. We joined the union so that we could sell our haggis, shortbread and whisky to the English.
We will be entitled to 10% of two aircraft carriers which we can lease back to England so that they can invade the Channel Islands in search of more illegal donations. There are many assumptions in the article - the most striking being that Cairns and the Labour party will be the Government after the next election. Cairns will be lucky if he is in Parliament after the next election. The EU Review recently signed means that England has to abide by its rules on competitive tendering. My understanding is that MOD land, as well as other assets,has been sold to an off-shore company ensuring a considerable loss of public money. Things are getting desperate in the union ranks.
104

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 08:26:20
why isnt this a Hamish MacDonall story???
105

Richardinho,

21/03/2008 08:29:46
#111 Stephen-you were the one who was shouting about how much you hated nationalists. If you can't take it, don't dish it out.

Saying that, even the most intemperate poster who called you those names, still added some articulate reasoned arguments-more than you have done, with your dribblings about Peter Sellar.(wtfwta?!)

It is heartening, that all my fellow posters of a nationalistic persuasion are making well informed and articulate comments, whilst you the unionist can only manage a sneering idiotic tone. It shows why people like you have less and less relevance and are taken less and less seriously.
106

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 08:31:34
The brutal fact is that England vis-a-vis the United Kingdom is no longer a significant world power?

The UK only struts the world stage by reason of it being a satellite state of the world's only true superpower: the United States of America!

Recent events in Iraq and Afghanistan have only gone to
prove the realpolitik of this situation.

According to Jane's Defence Review, the US Department of Defense every 3 years spends more on its National Guard(Territorial Army)and Air National Guard than the WHOLE of the annual Defence Budget in the UK!
107

obeone,

21/03/2008 08:33:32
117 - the SNP thinks that stoking up nationalism and getting independence will have no down side and that after years of bitter arguments over the break up, the English will still look kindly on the Scots. Yeah right! The England Scotland divorce will make the McCartneys divorce look pleasant and the chances of England sending any contracts north to a Scotland that only thinks of itself is very very low. The US decision to award EADS the air tanker contract is being fiercely debated in the US and could well be over turned by a new administration looking to help the US economy
108

Stephen fae Scotland,

San Francisco (& Edinburgh) 21/03/2008 08:33:43
Nope - #124 - I use my actual name, unlike someone trying to imply a fancy swear wordy name, and its never been anything else.

So if you think your fine Gnat detective work has uncovered a new name for an old foe - sorry your Gnat skills have let you down. I am just another of the people that you seem to disagree with - somehow I think that's a bigger number of people than your ego lets you admit!

Signed - Stephen!

P.S. - I really hope you work in the defence industry.
109

james 1st,

hamilton 21/03/2008 08:33:47
i can no longer understand why scots people vote labour, labour at holyrood or westminster do nothing whatsoever for scotland. even those who want to retain the union would be better voting for an alternative party, take labour out of power on a national basis. give scotland an effective voice at westminster, currently they have none, all of the elected labour mp really just want to be engilsh, not british
110

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 08:34:03
Yawn... and yes it is indeed scaremongering. The fact is after independence we will spend on defence exactly what is required.

We don't know what is spent on it now either as the British Government refuse to say!

Our defence plans certainly won't include a Trident nuclear missile system nor expensive campaigns in Iraq or Afghanistan where our young lads are being killed to prop up American imperialism under the Butchers Apron.
111

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 21/03/2008 08:34:09
#122 You're right in one respect. The cabinet was led by Scots. Whoever said 'Americans / English' was guilty of a generalisation, I doubt they were truly racist.

Incidentally, were there no English ministers that agreed to attack Iraq?
112

Kenny A,

21/03/2008 08:36:48
Seems to me the MOD already gives out a lot of work to forigne countries, France, America for example what would be different with Scotland.

Sweden has a massive Army in comparrison with the UK a very healthy defence industry and strangly does not seem to get involved in others wars.

Scotland could do well to follow in these footsteps.

At the present moment what Mr Cairns has said is simply a threat and should be ignored.
113

Richardinho,

21/03/2008 08:41:20
' £3.9 billion contracts to build two aircraft carriers. Five destroyers are also being built, ...

Though the aircraft carriers – which are due to enter service in 2014 and 2016 – will not be wholly built in Scotland, '

So on close reading, Cairns is bandying around the phony figure of 3.9 billion when this actually covers work carried out elsewhere.

How much is carried out in Scotland? Who know?
But you have to ask; if he is fiddling his figures in such a brazenly dishonest way, why should we trust him at all?
114

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 08:42:40
The Westminster government would not be prepared to award lucrative contracts for military hardware to a "foreign country" if Scotland left the United Kingdom.

The British Government would not exist after independence for Scotland and it would not have Scotland's oil revenues to fund it!

If England believes it can maintain an extremely high level of spending without us then they are welcome to do so, they can also follow the US in any future wars.

No wonder no young Scots are joining the army.
115

,

21/03/2008 08:44:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
116

Radical Mac,

Fife 21/03/2008 08:45:16
Why do these comments surprise anyone. Scotlands industry defence or otherwise is already decimated. Labour depend on Scotland to stay in power UK wide. UK Forces depend heavily on Scottish recruits. I dont favour independence but know we would be OK with self determination. We could maybe turn our excellent forces into export earners as UN peacekeeping troops as the Irish Republic does. Assuming that the Westminster Government did not take all their equipment back. As a petty final act. We could reclaim our own oil as a more sensible act.
117

Auckland Arab2,

21/03/2008 08:46:06
Utter garbage reporting of total kak !

Euro fighter, Trident, Thalus ???? All based in the UK of course?

This is blackmail of the lowest kind. Rosyth has been on the brink of closure even within the current arrangements several times.

If we lose some jobs as a result of independence then so be it. We will gain far more when all the Head Office jobs that are in London have to be relocated. Ferranti and Marconi didn't do too well under the Union. But that's right we are glad of any jobs at any cost in Scotland. These people are desperate. Stick your jobs, we don't want them anyway.
118

Ken Mac,

Glasgow 21/03/2008 08:47:59
AM2 on first again this morning I see, how does he do it? His lackeys are becoming ever more shrill and desperate to score points. Failing again. David Cairns?,now there is a gnat.

'Mr Cairns's warning came after he met defence industry leaders in Edinburgh and heard their concerns about the possible impact of independence.'

Wouldn't these industry leaders been better advised to pose their questions to the SNP? Cairns wont be around come independence so a bit of a waste of time talking to him. A future UK government minus Scotland will buy their arms where they want and our yards have every chance of winning that business. Scotland will be competing in the wider world and that is to be welcomed. Scaremongering is exactly what it is and don't let AM2 tell you different. It seems that Labour have learned no lessons at all.
119

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 21/03/2008 08:48:38
I'd rather we had a civil engineering industry than a defence industry.

Isn't odd how things like shoulder launched missiles, ballistic missiles, handcuffs, tasers, chemical weapons etcetera come under the term defence?
120

tomislav,

Reality 21/03/2008 08:49:14
I will not be abusive or provocative ,,,, but can any (even one) of you Indepedence advocatee tell me how much it is going to cost, (to the nearest trillion will be fine), where you go that information, and how much is it going to cost ME. I assume you have this information at hand otherwise why would you be an advocate for it, thank you
121

Stephen fae Scotland,

San Francisco (& Edinburgh) 21/03/2008 08:51:24
#129 - Spot on!

The degree of self-delusion reflecting in postings her is staggering. They rave their anti-Englishness in one line then try to switch and calmly describe about how it would be in the best interest of England to award contracts to Scotland...

If Scots like me are tired of listening to all this anti-English, anti-British double talk, how do you think the English feel? Oh, wait, of course they couldn't give a hoot how the English feel. (Cue the diatribe about corrupt warmongers, etc., etc.)

I thought the whole point of indepeendeence Nooo was that Scotland would no longer take from the English taxpayer! If that's the case come clean Gnats. Be honest and make it plain that you don't really want English defence contracts. You don't want the jobs, the industry, the taxes, the skills base, none of it.

You are pacifists are you not? So why try to even compete to make bombs or bullets for a non-Scottish Great Britain? Embrace an economy devoid of a defense industry and just be honest. That way the Scots can see the actual proce of a McTaliban regime.



122

Auckland Arab2,

21/03/2008 08:53:43
Utter garbage reporting of total kak !

Euro fighter, Trident, Thalus ???? All based in the UK of course?

This is blackmail of the lowest kind. Rosyth has been on the brink of closure even within the current arrangements several times.

If we lose some jobs as a result of independence then so be it. We will gain far more when all the Head Office jobs that are in London have to be relocated. Ferranti and Marconi didn't do too well under the Union. But that's right we are glad of any jobs at any cost in Scotland. These people are desperate. Stick your jobs, we don't want them anyway.
123

Stephen fae Scotland,

San Francisco (& Edinburgh) 21/03/2008 08:56:44
#134 - comparing us to Sweden - that's smart. Do we assume you are of conscription age? Because if so, go get fitted for your Gnat uniform, Sweden requires 18 months to two years military service, with continual refresher requirements every year for as long as you are of military service age.
124

Richardinho,

21/03/2008 08:56:50
#143

I thought #105 was a brilliant response to you;

'dribbling'.

It perfectly encapsulates all your posts so far.
Its not suprising that many English people themselves based in Scotland are turning to the SNP when you unionists are so bereft of any intelligent or coherent thought whatsoever.
125

craigy,

south lanarkshire 21/03/2008 08:57:02
Hey Adolf,
Try to spell your title correctly, Der Fuhrer or Der Fuerher. The U should have an umlaut, which is not available on an english language keyboard.
Now bog off back to your National Socialist brethern.
Just like the failed preist who has become a failed politician you are(never)has been.

oh and if we dont build our defence products in foreign countries, why was france considered for production. thales (french) bae soon or wants to be (american) one of the companies is foreign the other aspires to be foreign.
126

Stepford Nat,

21/03/2008 09:04:53
This is unionist scaremongering. Unionists are wimps. If you're not one of us you're a unionist. Labour is rubbish
127

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 09:05:40
When it comes to profits businesses will conduct business not politics and anybody who thinks differently is a moron. You only have to look at the affair with the Saudi arms deal to see that.
128

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 21/03/2008 09:06:30
#143 "indepeendeence Nooo"

You're not really Scottish are you? Up until the above you were doing fine, but this attempt at a Scottish accent in text was a bridge too far to you.

Best stick to spoffing all over your keyboard on www.hotunionistcumsluts.co.uk
129

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 09:09:04
143

Scotland doesnt take a penny from the English tax payer now and defence contracts dont belong to England they belong to the UK. I know most of you cant distinguish between the two but that will come when we split. You will be the poor relations trying to get over the border to a better life and we will be the ones sending the red cross parcels to our poor relations.
130

Kenny A,

21/03/2008 09:09:12
145

Bit older than that, joined up of my own free will, and to put your mind to rest am still on the reserve list so could still be called up.

What about yourself.

Fair point regarding conscription, has it merits in some ways but I am not for it as recruits often dont realy perform.
131

Stepford Nat,

21/03/2008 09:10:13
151 (143) Yeah, and if you're not really scottish you must be a perverted unionist
Alex is brilliant, labour is rubbish
132

Chris,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 09:10:15
Considering that part of the aircraft carriers construction was originally going to the French, and that UK military moves are carried out by chartered foreign ships, I think that Cairns is being disingenuous. Maybe, in a roundabout way, he is thinking that with an independent Scotland he would be out of a job?
Anyway, at the speed at which NuLabour is embracing our envelopment by a European State, all military construction would be available to all members.
133

Stephen fae Scotland,

San Francisco (& Edinburgh) 21/03/2008 09:10:34
#146 - I think your abuse postings are beginning to repeat themselves. Did 't you already buzz all that earlier?

As for English folks turning to the SNP in Scotland.... Well that may or may not be true, I have no idea. If true it seems more than a wee bit daft on their part, given the anti English tone of the Gnats.

Moreover, you imply that anyone joining the Gnats is doing so because of the compelling insights and intelligent policies of the SNP. I ha ma doots!

The Gnat appeal is not to the head - it is to emotions - including the most guttural. Lets not pretend otherwise.


134

Steve,

Not Rosyth! 21/03/2008 09:11:19
More defence jobs went under Labour than under the Tories! Rosyth is now just a business park with a dry dock.
Scotland doesn't really have a defence industry anymore. It has ALREADY been utterly decimated.
We only have one naval base. while Norway has six!
I once appeared in a Labour Party broadcast from Rosyth, where they were telling the same lies that Cairns is spinning now.

Weeks later I was made redundant, along with 1000 others since Labour took over the reigns. Rosyth is a shadow of it's former self. The skills are gone already. So much so that they will need to import a workforce. There are already Romanians working on these future projects in Rosyth. So DONT BELEIVE THE HYPE.
135

Islay Herald,

Hebrides 21/03/2008 09:12:31
Roll on independence!
An independent Scotland need not spend billions maintaining a large military industrial complex, a global military commitment, a huge standing army, a fleet, aircraft carriers, nuclear weapons, and all the other pretensions of a global power. It certainly need not involve itself in launching needless foreign military adventures.
The challenge is to transform and diversify the defence industry in Scotland. The UK is a dying power, so like it or not the money is going to dry up sooner or later. Get over it! The industry needs to start making changes now.
Also, the fact is that independence is on its way. We are going to take our independence back by hook or by crook. Listen up Unionists! We Nats ain't going anywhere. We will not stop EVER. You are losing the argument. As Bob Dylan said, 'Please get out of the way if you can't lend a hand' - The times they are certainly a'changin.
136

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 21/03/2008 09:17:30
A lot of predictions on this site are based on speculation (and perhaps partizan politics) rather than evidence.Defense is a reasonable topic for debate but to conceptualise Scotlands defense needs we need other models in order to make decisions about the future.Finland,where I temporarily live is one model.A country with the same population as Scotland has an army,airforce and small navy that they consider to be adequate for their needs.They are not even members of nato,and do not consider that necesary for their security.In spite of having fought Russia to preserve their independence,there is no panic about having them as a neighbour.There are a lot of other small countries that have dealt adequately with their defense/security needs.

The disapointing thing about some debates on this site is the tendency of some people to talk as if the only thing that works are the structures existing within the British Isles.The world is much larger and contains many ideas and potential partners.Finally,people at home should stop believing that evey Scot living abroad doesn't pay taxes at home.I can assure them that I am still a tax payer at home,in spite of living in Finland.




137

Stephen fae Scotland,

San Francisco (& Edinburgh) 21/03/2008 09:18:23
#151 - ha ha , sorry to disappoint ya - born and bred. Just not part of your clan (in any respect). Wholly predictable tho - how could I be Scottish, I am an unbeliever! I have the nerve to side with the English against Gnats. I refuse to drink the cool-aid and accept the Gnat orthodoxy.

Believe it or not - your minority 'government' still reflects a minority view. Most Scots ARE still Unionists.
138

Steve,

Bo'ness 21/03/2008 09:18:28
Is it not about time unionists stopped using the "anti-English" slur on anyone who wants independence?
Is that the best you can do? Good greif, how childish.

It just reveals them for the desperate losers they are. It's not the English who are the problem. Our destiny is in our own hands. It's about time we took charge of it. You get the country you deserve.
139

Allan Murray,

21/03/2008 09:18:43
give scotland an effective voice at westminster.
I agree Scotland should have an effective voice at westminster which i believe they already have its England that doesnt have a voice. In reality all the home nations except England have a demoncratic voice except England.

#122 You're right in one respect. The cabinet was led by Scots. Whoever said 'Americans / English' was guilty of a generalisation, I doubt they were truly racist.

Incidentally, were there no English ministers that agreed to attack Iraq?

Yes you are right English mp's did vote for this unlawful war. But i was highligting the ignorance of the poster, who washed over the fact that it was a Scotsman and a mainly Scottish cabinet that took us to war on a lie.
140

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 21/03/2008 09:18:48
#154 Spot on feller, it's in the genes dotchaknow?
141

Stepford Nat,

21/03/2008 09:19:55
156 "The Gnat appeal is not to the head - it is to emotions" You can't say that! I love the SNP!

Long live the scottish empire
142

Steve,

Bo'ness 21/03/2008 09:21:43
161, you are a nutter, lol.
What do you mean "side with the English"? Are you daft enough to beleive that Scotland actually belongs to the English? The English couldn't care less if we get independence, in fact I think they'd welcome it.
What age are you? 4???
143

Stephen fae Scotland,

San Francisco (& Edinburgh) 21/03/2008 09:25:42

"165 Stepford Nat, 21/03/2008 09:19:55
156 "The Gnat appeal is not to the head - it is to emotions" You can't say that! I love the SNP!

Long live the scottish empire"

At last - an honest Gnat.

144

Brian M,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 09:27:07
so only one tenth of Scotland's defence industry comes from being in the union - nothing great to lose then
145

It's me!,

21/03/2008 09:33:00
Don't think our nuclear arsenal is built solely in the UK and neither is the eurofighter, as the name suggests. Several countries are involved. The contract to modify the SA80 rifle was given to a German firm. You don't have to be for or against any particular political party to realise this is scaremongering without a doubt. When are politicians going to realise the country is no longer filled with superstitious peasants who can be scared by the threat of the bogeyman. We can think for ourselves.
146

It's me!,

21/03/2008 09:33:01
Don't think our nuclear arsenal is built solely in the UK and neither is the eurofighter, as the name suggests. Several countries are involved. The contract to modify the SA80 rifle was given to a German firm. You don't have to be for or against any particular political party to realise this is scaremongering without a doubt. When are politicians going to realise the country is no longer filled with superstitious peasants who can be scared by the threat of the bogeyman. We can think for ourselves.
147

Grant,

Scotland 21/03/2008 09:33:18
Of course we shouldn't forget that rUK or England/Wales/Northern Ireland would probably lose out more with Scottish independence, given the vast nuclear military infrastructure located in Scotland - much of which would need to be replicated elsewhere. There's the airbases and aircraft stationed there, unmanned satellite stations, missile ranges, army barracks, not to mention Faslane and Coulport (the nuclear base) and the infrastructure located there. Then of course there is the loss in manpower given that still Scotland produces a high pro-rata share of serving personnel in the Armed Forces than from other parts of the UK.

Then of course there would be the reparations. Scottish taxpayers have a share in every single piece of shared UK military resource, from aircraft, to overseas defence installations to army equipment to shared airbases. On independence these would have to be split up pro-rata, or Scotland given equivalent compensation.
148

shivago8,

livingston 21/03/2008 09:33:24
How dare he call us a foreign country,remarks like this only fuel the fire,what armed forces,they are decimated now thanks to this monstrous labour party.
I look forward to the day that we in Scotland are standing on our own two feet and have got rid of the English shackles.
BONNIE SCOTLAND I ADORE THEE.
149

walter,

21/03/2008 09:33:39
The SBAC has concerns of how independence will affect the defence industry in Scotland.
Cairns who represents the UK government has told them how he believes it will be detrimental to the industry.
Robertson accused Cairns of an extraordinary ill judged and ill informed attack and of scaremongering.
Why does the SNP not arrange a meeting with the SBAC and explain to them how independence will have no detrimental affect on the defence industry in Scotland.
Rather than just come out with accusations of scaremongering against the UK government why not allay the industries fears and explain how they see the industry after independence.
150

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 21/03/2008 09:33:44
#161 Stephen, when have you ever heard anyone say "indepeendeence Nooo"?

#163 Allan, I'm trying to think of the cabinet composition when Blair (Ostensibly Scottish) took us to war five years ago. I think it was:

Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott (English), Chancellor Gordon Brown (Scottish), Foreign Secretary Jack Straw (English), Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon (English) and Attorney General Lord Goldsmith(English) are International Development Secretary Clare Short (English).

If you remember the quote bandied about at the time was Members of the Cabinet were “absolutely rock solid” in support of the British government's position.
151

Allan Murray,

21/03/2008 09:33:47
All thses Scottish nationalist are saying you dont care about losing the defence industry you have in Scotland which is a very blinkered view.
What about the people that work in this industry am pretty sure they will mind. This is there lively hoods which they depend on.
Seems that the nationalist want independence at any cost and dont really care about who get hurt in the process of getting it.
Someone said that if Scotland left the uk that England would be petty and take back its military hardware.
why is that petty? when you move house you dont leave your furniture behind do you.
Also someone claimed that if Scotland left the uk we would have no more Scottish squaddies in the army. Think about it independence wouldnt stop Scottish people joining up as you no doubt would be part of the commonwealth which would give any Scot the right to join the British Army.
152

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 21/03/2008 09:37:27
Is there a deliberate attempt by some to go off topic, be abusive and spread innacurate statements, in order to destroy the possibilty of rational debate?
Three examples are:
1) THe SNP plans to break up the UK
2) The SNP are against the English
3)People's personal beliefs reflect self-delusion

None of these are true but I suppose the hope is that if you keep repeating them,some people will believe you.The real problem for some political parties is that they have lost touch with people's aspirations.The tactic of using distortion and threat does not appear to work anymore,as evidenced by the Scottish elections and subsequent survey of public opinion.Cairns should be careful,and learn to actively listen to voters if he wants to avoid losing the next Westminster election.
153

Stephen fae Scotland,

San Francisco (& Edinburgh) 21/03/2008 09:38:02
#166 - the reference to siding with the English was an ironic reference to an earlier exchange. Scotland does not belong to the English - but it is - and shall remain part of the UK of GB. Doesn't that stick in your craw? Of course it does. Neither Scots that want separation nor English that want it will prevail. Why? because there is still a majority of unionists in both places.



154

Grant,

Scotland 21/03/2008 09:38:27
This is a good paper on the massive (and eyewateringly costly) problems for rUK of locating the nuclear facilities elsewhere:

http://cns.miis.edu/pubs/npr/vol09/91/91walk.pdf
155

Stephen fae Scotland,

San Francisco (& Edinburgh) 21/03/2008 09:42:42
#177 - I think that's going to be news to the Gnats - that they are not planning for the break up of the UK. (Forget your arcane point about the Kingdom referring to the Crowns of Scotland and England - the SNP DOES want to break up the UK, crowns and all. The SNP is notionally for a republic. You'd better get on message.
156

Geoff,

sa 21/03/2008 09:51:02
178-Stephen fae scotland-well said in general!
177 Suomi-the SNP DO plan to break up the UK-this is the central core of their policy.Your points 2 and 3-agree
157

dimba,

21/03/2008 09:52:25
yeah, my old dad always saids 'when the scots become independent, their peace dividend will rob them of lots of jobs and everyone will leave to work here in england cos its the bestest place in the world.' CHICKEN COME HOME TO ROOST!

Wiythout you scots we would still have an emprire instead of having the uk and you are so ingratful.
158

Allan Murray,

21/03/2008 09:54:23
Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott (English), Chancellor Gordon Brown (Scottish), Foreign Secretary Jack Straw (English), Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon (English) and Attorney General Lord Goldsmith(English) are International Development Secretary Clare Short (English).

J Prescot - Welsh
Des Browne - Scottish
Douglas Alexander - Scottish
John Reid - Scottish
Charles Falconer - Scottish
Tony Blair - Scottish
Gordon Brown - Scottish
Now to say it was England that started this daft war is a lie.
The fact is all members of the political parties are responsible for the mess we are now in.
And for someone on here to make the stupid claim that is was started by Enlish mp's only is ignorant of the fact that it was a Scots man like it or not the got us on the road to this war.

159

Hamish Scott,

21/03/2008 10:02:54
Scotland in the Union does not get a proportionate share of Defence spending.
British defence spending/contracts often go to foreign countries.
An independent Scotland will have armed forces and military bases.

There - doesn't sound quite so bad as the Scotsman's/Cairns' 'DOOMED, WE'RE ALL DOOMED' message on independence.
160

yockel,

21/03/2008 10:04:03
Is this the same goevernment who shut down our propellant manufacturing capability and exported the jobs to South Africa?
161

Linda,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 10:04:43
The Scotsman to-day says it has taken the "unprecedented step" of making a front-page apology to Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon.
"We do so because we accept a number of vitriolic articles in the newspaper have suggested the couple caused the death of Scotland and then covered it up.
"We acknowledge there's no evidence whatsoever to support this theory and that Alex and Nicola are completely innocent of any involvement in their country’s decline. We trust that the suspicion that has clouded their lives for many months will soon be lifted.
"As an expression of its regret, the Scotsman and Edinburgh Evening News has now paid a very substantial sum into the Independence Fund and we promise to do all in our power to help efforts to rebuild the Scottish Nation.
162

Hamish Scott,

21/03/2008 10:05:10
#183
Allan - make no mistake, this is a war started by England. Scotland would never start a war like that. Brown, etc are not Scots, they are Brits.
163

Geoff,

sa 21/03/2008 10:05:33
182 Dimba-back to bed now!
183 Alan Murray-yes,the individual home countries of various British politicians had not the slightest bearing on the decision to go to war. In this and other areas,Nats use these irrelevancies to stir it up between us. Personally I am British first and always-an ethnic Scot borne of Ulster scots/Irish parents with smatterings of Welsh and English blood. On the issue of the Iraq war, I am in agreement with virtually all on these forums-twas a costly and bloody disaster that had NOTHING to do with the fact that Tony Blair was born in Scotland
164

eric,

21/03/2008 10:08:58
189 I respect your veiws totally,But You must ask your GVT WHY they will NOT let Scotland go !Is it the Oil !Does Scotland mineral wealth hold up UK especially through hard times like we are having now?
165

Boab,

Glasgow 21/03/2008 10:10:23
Other Scottish jobs which will hopefully be decimated after independence:

Prison officers
Probation officers
Drug and alcohol addiction workers
Nuclear submariners
Trident engineers
NHS managers
PFI managers
The Scotland Office

Any others I've missed?
166

William Crawford,

Austin, Texas USA 21/03/2008 10:12:11
What's more important a free Scotland or keeping traders to the cause in office. Extortion comes to mind when I see the threat of losing defense jobs to others because Scotland would be considered a foreign country.

Scotland and Ireland have been exploited for to long from the Crown, time to move on people! we did and it seem to work out just fine, however we do not receive much defense work from England, wonder why.

There are Quislings in your mists, put them to the sword, or stay in bondage you have choices!

167

Publius,

London 21/03/2008 10:14:04
At work this morning (I always work on bank holidays except New Year) so nothing much to do.
The SNP hit squad of posters could easily refute Cairns if they would tell us roughly how big Scotland's army would be after independence, how many ships there would be in the Scottish navy and whether they still see Scotland leaving NATO>
168

Geoff,

sa 21/03/2008 10:14:06
120 Steve 52-So why would scotland require an Army,Navy and Air Force"Pray tell..who are we going to be invaded by?"

Sums it up rather nicely.
169

eric,

21/03/2008 10:18:18
Unionist have become the minority in Scotland,More and more folks are Warming to Independence .We may have the Queen as figurehead for a few Generations after independence until future generations decide what to do with Queeny bags.
170

Caledonian Mike,

21/03/2008 10:19:10
194 I agree
Lets become like Switzerland and just hide
171

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 21/03/2008 10:21:03
Sorry lads,it is not SNP policy to break uo the union of the crowns.It is their policy to achieve paliaments of equal status in Britain. It is really about changing the relationship to one of cooperative partners who respect each others autonomy. That is the situation among the Scandanavian countries and it is mutually beneficial.No matter.The core of my postings is that the type of attacks, such as made by Cairns, is counter productive.We can expect a lot more of this but Labour should really find a better way.Tony Ben wisely adviced them at the Scottish Parliament this week to get in touch with the voters mood and aspirations.In spite of the results of the Scottish elections last May,Labour has not been doing very much listening,especially Westminster Labour.

For those who tend to put their own spin on opinion polls,I would suggest that you factor in more details into your analysis.It is true that the numbers favouring independence fluctuate among polls depending on how many questions are asked,but you need to study the detail.Recent polls indicate that a lot opt for greater powers and that a large group of people say that they might vote yes in an independence referendum under certain conditions.This is a topic that merits more detailed discussion but I am happy about the general trend.

I enjoyed reading what people were saying.I'm now away to join family for an Easter lunch.We are 2 hours ahead here.
172

Allan Murray,

Liverpool 21/03/2008 10:21:53
Allan - make no mistake, this is a war started by England. Scotland would never start a war like that. Brown, etc are not Scots, they are Brits.

No this was a war started by the British government like most of the nationalist arguments you choose to ignore certain facts to fit your argument. And shows how ignorant you and the nationalist really are. Like the fact it was a Scottish king that brought about the union between Scotland and England. About the fact the Scotland played a major part in building the British empire and about the fact that it was a Scots man Tony Blair that took us to war in the 1st place.
Also what part of Gordon Brown is not Scottish ? you cant change the fact he is Scottish nice to see the racism that you aim against the English used against your own country man.
Am English born but irish grandad parents that like trying to rob me of my origins.

Back up uour claim that the iraq war was caused by the English ???????????
173

Geoff,

sa 21/03/2008 10:24:04
189 Happy English-I would guess that the rise in English Nationalism is almost entirely due as a reaction to extreme Scottish Nationalism.
190 Eric-I think the idea that somehow "English" people want to "hang on" to Scotland is another Nat myth. There are Unionists from all corners of the UK who wish to preserve the country of Great Britain and Northern Ireland but this is an entirely different thing. If a majority of Scots wanted out of the Union then it would be a velvet divorce-England would be no impediment.
174

Geoff,

sa 21/03/2008 10:25:45
200 Up the british.
175

Graeme2,

Aberdeen 21/03/2008 10:28:45
A lot of drivel spoken here to date. Comment 75 from Lachie Todd seems to be the most balanced. Unionists seem to be acting like a bunch of druggies again.
I might just wish to remain in the Union but there would need to be a wholesale review and renegociation of the terms. Not by the unionist parties but the people of Scotland. The treaty as it stands is too one sided,open ended and degrades Scotland. No Oil revenues(name another country that has allowed this to occur with out a lot of bloodshed?), degraded fisheries, one-in-four soldiers in Afghanistan are Scots. Surely the much loved treaty protected the Scots from exploitation?? Who benefited from the changes to the Treaty and could the Scots MP's in Westminister have stopped it?
I suggest that all MP's in Westminister become subservient to the First Minister's wishes on all things Scottish at Westminister.
176

Geoff,

sa 21/03/2008 10:29:13
197 Suomi-great post. Enjoy your lunch.
177

Allan Murray,

21/03/2008 10:29:32
Correct, Us English would welcome your independence, in fact most of us believe that it is the correct route to take, England would survive well on it's own, we are a strong country and have our own Finacial Markets,we would also have a strong military. You see quite a few remarks on this site that the English will not let Scotland go, I assure you the English are very willing to go on there own and the feeling of people in England is gaining at a rapid rate that we want to look after ourselves and no one else. I am sure that both countries would survive quite well without one another.

The best post so far most of the nationalist are saying England wont let Scotland go.
Strange that when asked more English voted for Scottish independence than the Scottish did.
I think the reason for this is all the Anti-Englishness that comes out of Scotland, and how England is the course of all Scotlands problems
178

Red Tower,

Dunoon 21/03/2008 10:29:48
Since when was the restriction that we should place defence contracts put in place. We have Trident from the Americans, European joint ventures with military aircraft etc.

No, if the English Parliament i.e. post independence, refuses to even contemplate awarding defence contracts to Scotland then it would be bracketing Scotland with North Korea. In short this would be an act of complete and utter vindictiveness
179

eric,

21/03/2008 10:29:55
201 I agree .SE England generates Billions to UK economy ,But most of that stays in London ,And doesnt reach the Poor downs south either,A Labour MP was asked last year .IfMost Scots voted for total independence .Would they respect that Vote .His answer was Absolutly NOT,
180

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 21/03/2008 10:31:21
#120 - you can choose to "bury your head in the sand" if you like on this one but the same question will arise in almost every industry that can still determine where the money is spent at the end of the day. One of the biggest "industry customers" is still the native governments of any country - in relative terms we are approx one tenth of the size of the UK we presently belong to and theres the rub in economic terms. You narrow minded nationalists never put your heads into gear, but allow foolish hearts to try and kid the sensible majority of the error of our ways for wanting to retain the union that has served us well since the days of Culloden. You are the sorry remnants of a distant past that was unsustainable then and remains so today and forever more. Hind sight will teach us all the error of your ways.
181

John south of Soutra,

21/03/2008 10:33:12
Tony Blair does not class himself as Scottish,he was born in Edinburgh when his father was working here but both his parents are English he represented an English seat - Sedgefield, by your definition Cliff Richard is Indian.
As for Gordon Frown he does not consider himself to be Scottish, this is the man who clain that Gazzas goal against Scotland is one of his favourite sporting moments
182

Hamish Scott,

21/03/2008 10:36:18
#198 Allan - Tony Blair is English, he said so "I am English" - so let's respect his identity. Gordon Brown's nationality is Britsh - he said so, so let's respect his identity also. If your nationality is English or British it cannot be Scottish.
Tony Blair - an Englishman - committed the UK to war. Scotland would never have invaded Iraq on its own (with the Americans). Only England would do that and it did.
183

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 21/03/2008 10:37:08
This is obviously a threat from the nerve centre of "THE EMPIRE". A very good example of a "peace keeping force" in action is to be found in the Republic of Ireland. As far as I am aware ,that country has a very low unemployment rate. So! the threat of massive unemployment brought about by independence should be taken for what it is worth,simply scare-mongering.
184

Aesop,

edinburgh 21/03/2008 10:37:20
These defence jobs have been bought and paid for with revenues raised from Scotland's oil, as well as from taxes raised in Scotland from Scots.

The money wasted on warfare and the military can now be used to create socially useful jobs in health and education. Its a win-win situation for Scotland.
185

Allan Murray,

21/03/2008 10:40:02
A lot of drivel spoken here to date. Comment 75 from Lachie Todd seems to be the most balanced. Unionists seem to be acting like a bunch of druggies again.
I might just wish to remain in the Union but there would need to be a wholesale review and renegociation of the terms. Not by the unionist parties but the people of Scotland.

So what you are saying is the voice of Scotland is more important than any other nation within the uk ?

The treaty as it stands is too one sided,open ended and degrades Scotland. No Oil revenues(name another country that has allowed this to occur with out a lot of bloodshed?), degraded fisheries, one-in-four soldiers in Afghanistan are Scots.

Oil revenue is more than covered in the barnet formula that give Scotland an extra £14 billion more than oil revenue alone.
And whats with the amonut of Scottish Sqaddies and there death toll in the war in iraq and afganistan.
are you trying to say a Scottish man life is more important than a Irish/Welsh/English life ?
do you think the people shooting at British troops wait until the Scots arrive before they start shooting.

186

Geoff,

sa 21/03/2008 10:40:16
202 Graeme 2-good post.The whole constitutional structure of the UK needs drastic revision. Labours devolution settlement is a half baked mess-England have no Parliament so Westminster is left as an ad hoc English AND Unionist body, asituation made for conflict. The Scottish Parliament is led by the able and charismatic Alex salmond who cleverly exploits every opportunity (and Labour give him plenty!) to trash the Union.
A modern United Kingdom, with four equal Parliaments joined in a British Federation with the Union Parliament responsible for Defence,Foreign Affairs and other agreed areas of common interests is the way to go. I have said this repeatedly but I genuinely think that such a transformation would satisfy the aspirations of most of the inhabitants of these islands and remove the current sources of conflict. Labour will NEVER see this-as long as they remain in power the Union will decline. Hopefully a Tory Westminster government under David(aye) Cameron can save the day. I trust his relative youth will enable him to take the courage to institute the necessary radical reform. The much derided LibDems have a clearer view of what needs to be done.
187

sergiesmax,

21/03/2008 10:42:25
Oh lets stop talking about it and do it,free Scotland now, not tomorrow not next year or in the next 10 years now! now! now!!!!!!
188

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 10:43:42
174

You are assuming he wont or already hasnt of course.
I take it you also assume that Cairns has already spoken to the SBAC and assured them that Scottish independence will not adversely affect Englands dealings with the SBAC? or do you think that is necessary as well???
189

A Voice From Scotland,

21/03/2008 10:44:09
#20 fifi. So we get your alledged union dividend by building weapons for a UK so it can go to other foreign sovereign nations and invade them to help the USA in it's private illegal war to allow Rumsfields companies to assett strip them.

Watching you unionist apologists in fool denial is quite embarrassing. When Scotland secedes from the union, the rump of the UK will face very substantial war debts. At the moment our troops are being starved of equipment. And come 2012 the UK will be facing debts of > £700 billion. We will before that time be facing serious financial challenges in the economy as we are starting to see. Scotland needs to secede quickly to save our nation from UK fascism.

Do not forget that tiny wee Iceland was able to defend their rights against the fascism of the UK,twice, Scotland will as they she always has, provide a secure nation for our citizens to enjoy. Our sons and daughters have shed enough blood for this corrupt UK.

Never forget this war was started by a so called Labour party who lied and twisted the intelligence and defied the UN to go to another country and take part in action which resulted in hundreds of thousands of their citizens loosing their liberty and lives.

We had the odious spectacle of the war mongering brave Blair refusing to meet with a grieving mother, Rosie Gentle, what a big brave man he is not. Needless to say we do not see the sons and daughters of those who voted for the war in mortal danger. You make me sick.


34
The Strategist,
21/03/2008 00:56:49...... The best comment on here by far.
190

Allan Murray,

21/03/2008 10:44:36
Allan - Tony Blair is English, he said so "I am English" - so let's respect his identity. Gordon Brown's nationality is Britsh - he said so, so let's respect his identity also. If your nationality is English or British it cannot be Scottish.
Tony Blair - an Englishman - committed the UK to war. Scotland would never have invaded Iraq on its own (with the Americans). Only England would do that and it did.

Grow up, doesnt matter how you try to redress it Tony Blair and Gordon Brown where both born in Scotland its a fact and a fact you have to learn to live with.
And the only reason for Brown playing the British card is because he is the PM.
What PM would say other wise he wouldnt stay to long as PM if he didnt play the British card.
191

Norman,

21/03/2008 10:44:53
Who's the numpty that said it wasn't scaremongering? Of course it is.

This Cairns chap (suitably named as his head is full of rocks) says they wouldn't award contracts to foreign powers? Does he know his jet fighters carry equipment from Israel?
192

Hamish Scott,

21/03/2008 10:46:06
#207
If the Union is, and has been, so good for us then why are we so dependent on England, as you claim?
193

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 10:46:51
173

We are a foreign country. England is the UK and UK is England that is the only basis on which his presumptions can hold any water.
Isnt that right Walter???
194

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow Home of the Scots 21/03/2008 10:48:09
#2.... Take no notice of #3. He is a loyal supporter of Glasgow Rangers. Rangers supporter = Defeated Scottish peasants who regularly behave in a subservient manner towards their English masters.These people are often to be found singing a song in praise of their English-German queen,begging her to"long to reign over us"So! you see, I would not take the comments of these plastic Englishmen very seriously.
195

John south of Soutra,

21/03/2008 10:48:42
Allan Murray, given that 25% of the UK military are Scottish, please tell me how England would have a strong Military force, we have 10% of the population yet supply 25% of the requirement, if you also take out Fijians, Gurkhas etc, England are probably only supply around 70% of the requirement, which will leave a bigger shortfall as the miltary are undermanned and under resourced as it is.
Also can someone explain to me why we need this huge miltary force anyway unless we're proposing to invade someone ourselves
Under EU legislation contracts would go out to competative tender, the MOD currently give contracts to Foreign countries as it is so why would an independant Scotland be any different
196

dimba,

21/03/2008 10:49:05
How could we trust you scots to make guns that weren't bent or had a twisty bit running down the barrel to make the bullet spin stupidly? WE CANT! that why you should forget idependence. GOT IT?
197

Allan Murray,

21/03/2008 10:51:41
Do not forget that tiny wee Iceland was able to defend their rights against the fascism of the UK,twice, Scotland will as they she always has, provide a secure nation for our citizens to enjoy. Our sons and daughters have shed enough blood for this corrupt UK.

What a load of dribble the way some of you Scottish nationalist talk you would think you where some divine race.
Maybe you should hurry up and leave the union cause they way you go on about yourselves is sickening.
the only people keeping Scotland in the union is Scotland its self. but like most of the nationalist arguments it is everyone elses fault apart from your own.
198

Transparent?,

Scotland 21/03/2008 10:53:10
"scaremongering and nonsense"?

Independence, under Salmond's Nonsense Party, certainly scares me!
199

Geoff,

sa 21/03/2008 10:53:54
208 John south-yes maybe Cliff richard IS Indian. After all there are many Scottish Mahommeds! Tony Blair was Scottish by birth and also largely by blood.
200

John south of Soutra,

21/03/2008 10:55:02
Allan no-one has said that a Scottsh life is more important than an English or a Welsh one, what this thread is about and people seemed to lost this fact, is a UK Goverment minister, whether he is Scottish, Englsh, Welsh or whatever making a stupid comment to scare people about potential job losses, this to me suggests that the current goverment are running scared
201

John south of Soutra,

21/03/2008 10:57:51
No Goeff, I was following Allan's logic, Cliff Richard was born in India to English parents when his father was working there, Tony Blair was born in Scotland to English parents when his father was working there, so if Tony is Scottish then Cliff must be Indian
202

Allan Murray,

21/03/2008 10:58:51
Allan Murray, given that 25% of the UK military are Scottish, please tell me how England would have a strong Military force, we have 10% of the population yet supply 25% of the requirement, if you also take out Fijians, Gurkhas etc, England are probably only supply around 70% of the requirement, which will leave a bigger shortfall as the miltary are undermanned and under resourced as it is.

Your argument is floored already. What makes you think that an independent Scotland would mean no more Scottish troops in the British army ? commonwealth countries already have there own people within the British army and as for Fijians, Gurkhas etc i dont recall them treatenening to leave the British army.
And like you said the rest of the nations within the UK still provide 70% of the troops, But the British army will still leave the doors open for Scotland people to join up like they do with ever other common wealth country.
203

,

21/03/2008 10:59:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
204

Geoff,

sa 21/03/2008 11:01:44
216-A Voice from scotland-"Dont forget tiny wee Iceland was able to defend itself against the fascism of the UK!!!"
Presume you are reffering to the Cod wars. The United Kingdom chose,for whatever reason, not to use more than a token response from the Royal Navy in this conflict. Iceland had no means to defend itself against any half serious aggression. Bit like modern day Ireland and presumably post Independence Scotland?
205

Allan Murray,

21/03/2008 11:03:19
No Goeff, I was following Allan's logic, Cliff Richard was born in India to English parents when his father was working there, Tony Blair was born in Scotland to English parents when his father was working there, so if Tony is Scottish then Cliff must be Indian

Place of Birth for Blair is Scotland ike it or not his origins maybe of English or British decent but his birthplace is and for ever will be Scotland the same as Gordon Brown (Sorry he cant be Scottish cause he is British can he).
I bet if Blair had been a hero of Scotland you would be causing murder if someone claimed he was English.
But with alot of Scotlands argument you change the facts to suit your arguments
206

Allan Murray,

21/03/2008 11:09:39
Please someone tell me how England keeps Scotland within the UK ?
So far i have read how England started the iraq war lol to how England keeps Scotland within the UK.
I have already address the nonsense over the England started the Iraq war, which national refuse to recognise was started by a scottish PM.
And has for Scottish independence how does England keep you in it. Like i have already stated a poll done a few years ago showed more English infavour of Scottish independence than the Scottish so if England is happy for you to leave how are we keeping you in when you wont even vote for independence yourselves.
207

dimba,

21/03/2008 11:11:45
234 - we keep you and you do what we say in exchange to hang out with our greatness. england rules!
208

Geoff,

sa 21/03/2008 11:13:35
229 John South-We are all children of the Universe-Scots,Irish,Nats and Unis...:)

Unionists and Nashnulists
Live together in perfect harmony
Side by side on our green seaboard
Why dont we
Learn to love each other
There is good and bad in everyone
Even Alix Salmond...

sort of to the song of Ebony and Ivory
209

Geoff,

sa 21/03/2008 11:15:38
Maybe I should hang on to my day job.
210

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 11:15:47
212

"Oil revenue is more than covered in the barnet formula that give Scotland an extra £14 billion more than oil revenue alone."

F*cking bullsh*t the Barnett formula never even existed until NS oil revenue started flowing into the coffers. The Barnett formula is only possible because NS oil revenue pays for it. Dont give us any of that DTI cack about only taking in 3bn in NS Revenue when Gordon Brown himself admitted it was 13bn and the CEO of BP estimated it to be over 20bn.

And further more its NS oil revenue plus every other form of revenue and inward investment due to Scotland which goes to Westminster while we get the fraction back with the Barnett formula.
And we want a share of the crown jewels and the public assets used by the Royal family not to mention the Gold reserves within the Bank of England which is in fact the Bank of the UK.
211

Boswall,

21/03/2008 11:16:27
The M.O.D. don't seem to have any problems contracting out work on the Queen Elizabeth and Prince of Wales carriers to Thales - a French conglomerate.
212

Hamish Scott,

21/03/2008 11:19:34
Allan Murray - you accuse others of refusing to accept Tony Blair is Scottish but the reality is that you are refusing to accept he is English. How do we know he is English? Because he said so - "I am English" he said, in the House of Commons. Who best knows Tony Blair's nationality - Tony Blair or you?
England started this war because Britain is England writ large, and it is not Scotland writ large.
213

dimba,

21/03/2008 11:19:39
239 Shhhh!! you are ruining our argument, dimwit!
214

magnolia,

LONDON 21/03/2008 11:25:22
The sooner the arms industry is 'decimated' the better. People who want to work will always find another job.
It makes me laugh that that terrorist organisation is still called the 'ministry of defence' when all they seem to do is attack innocent people abroad. more MoS (ministry of slaughter) than MoD.
215

Allan Murray,

21/03/2008 11:26:03
I have posted the a link:

6 May 1953 (1953-05-06) (age 54)[1]
Edinburgh, Scotland, United Kingdom

Now last i checked Edinburgh was the capital of Scotland or are you giving Edinburgh to England.
you can keep trying to redress the fact but facts are facts and he is Scottish.
You keep fooling yourself that he is English like you keep on fooling yourself that England keeps you within the UK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Blair
216

David MacVicar,

Web 21/03/2008 11:28:53
At least Cairns admits that Scotland is a country.

1) Scotland as a country puts more moneys into the UK state than it gets back.

2) The UK state puts money into certain defense areas that is not in Scotlands interests but only for UK state policy. Scotland would not renewing Trident for example.

3) Scotland can focus on any areas of defense that is wishes, spending more or less overall on areas in the interst of a Scottish defense policy ONLY.

4) Rump UK spending would have to be cut substantially or the proportion of the Rump UK budget spent on defense would go up enormously.

5) It is is more likely that Scotland would increase the proportion if its defence budget to conventional spending than the UK does now. The amount of spending can be up or down depending on the policies of who we would vote for.

Currently Scottish defence jobs are made or lost on the whim of UK defence policies which have very little to do with Scottish interests anyway.
217

,

21/03/2008 11:32:45
Comment Removed By Administrator
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218

Geoff,

sa 21/03/2008 11:34:04
239 Boswall-you neglected to mention that the main reason Thales are getting a big share of the action is that the French are building a carrier on a joint design programme and this is part of a quid pro quo.
219

,

21/03/2008 11:34:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
220

Geoff,

sa 21/03/2008 11:37:48
..if the French hadn't been involved the bulk of the work would have gone to scotland.
221

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 11:40:06
248

Aye that big word if again and no doubt IF the French didnt get it they would have put it out to tender to the next cheapest bid.
222

voltaire's janny,

21/03/2008 11:40:31
Lay me doon
In the cauld cauld grun'
Where afore
mony mair have gone

The defence industry is a political subsidy junkie and should it be incapable of winning international tenders then it's decimation is to be welcomed.

Maybe independent Scotland would build warships or not - that will not be in the gift of its southron neighbour.
223

G,

dundy 21/03/2008 11:43:17
Of course the English gov would not present orders to Scottish yards for defence spend - this is not scaremongering it is stating a fact.

The question all you SNPites need to answer is - how will an independent Scotland fund and run its armed forces? Or would it bother?
Would it just call defence a unionist problem and pretend it is not important...
224

Hamish Scott,

21/03/2008 11:48:12
#251
G - we would fund our armed forces as we now fund UK forces - using our various revenues.
225

Boswall,

21/03/2008 11:55:32
246 Geoff

I'm not sure that makes much of a difference to the argument.

As you'll know there's an increasing push in NATO countries for greater intercompatability in their equipment - which in itself means more joint ventures between member states.

Internatinoal borders did not stop the British/German development of the Tornado, nor the British/French (formerly)/German etc development of the Typhoon. The premise of this article just doesn't make sense or acknowledge the current situation in arms development.
226

Geoff,

sa 21/03/2008 12:00:35
251G dundy-the basis of Nat defence policy seems to be founded on the"who would want to attack wee Scotland?"philosophy.
No need for a credible defence force as expressed by many Nat posters.
Defence would be left to a few "warmongers" like the rump UK,France and the USA. If any body ever attacked Scotland, they would do what Ireland would have to do-call a friend.
227

Thistledhu,

Fife 21/03/2008 12:09:41
this is all part of a labour based fight back by media manipulation

daily record lead with anti snp council headlines on wednesday

No doubt there will be more 'exclusives' over the weekend.

is this the 'normal politcs' wendy wants to get back to now the fuss over her illegal activiteis has died down?
228

Thistledhu,

Fife 21/03/2008 12:13:26
if Ireland can feild a credible army why cant we?

why do people line up to say that we as scots are inadequate people

do you feel? inadequate I dont
229

subrosa,

21/03/2008 12:15:17
This article, along with others, is pure propaganda in preparation for the wee labour conference being held this weekend.
230

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/03/2008 12:16:20
Laughable stuff from Cairns. Also, how treacherous can this little man get. A Scot describing Scotland as a foreign country.
231

Geoff,

sa 21/03/2008 12:16:25
253 Boswall-actually, although I am a unionist, I am on the same page as you here in many respects. The argument as presented in the article above is not one I would cite in defence of the Union.
232

GM,

21/03/2008 12:16:58
AM2 = Expert in Everything

Everyone Else = beating straw men etc etc

The truth is that scottish workforces will continue to win defence contracts because we have some of the only facilities to do so...

I would also add that even when Rosyth was the *only* place viable for nuclear refit of subs (oh about 10 years ago), the then government handed the work to Devenport who spent billions of our money trying their best to make their docks seismically safe - I don't think they've managed yet.
233

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/03/2008 12:19:26
It is interesting that Westminster will be quite happy to allow foreign countries to supply the next generation of nuclear power stations for the UK (not that they have any choice mind you, since Brown sold off our last remaining capability).

Does anyone really believe that they would withhold military contracts for any reason other than plain spite?
234

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/03/2008 12:21:55
Ah yes, Cairns will "stand by that word" (decimate). This simply draws attention to the fact that Cairns obviously does not understand the meaning of the word decimate.
235

Conan the Librarian™,

Forming a Schiltron 21/03/2008 12:23:54
If Tony Blair calls the SNP defence policy crazy, then I'm all for it.

And I would have thought David Cairns' Defence policy would be turning the other cheek...
236

mac1888,

Bute 21/03/2008 12:25:45
Everyday this pathetic rag run's an anti SNP anti INDEPENDENCE story! Wake up and smell the coffee ya fool's ,Scotland's heading towards independence and your scaremongering is just making u look like bitter and twisted little unionist erse lickers!!
237

Geoff,

sa 21/03/2008 12:26:01
258 connaughtboy-I think he meant it in relation to England if scotland becomes independent
256 Thistledu-"If ireland can field a credible army why cant we." The point is that Ireland do NOT field credible defence forces. Irish soldiers are amongst the bravest and the best but blood and guts aint enough. Ask the Tibetans in relation to CHINA. Bet they would have spent more on defence had they foresaw a chinese invasion!!
256 Thistledu-who says Scots are inadequate people?? Some of you guys have such a persecution complex or more to the point you say such things,implying that Unionists say such things, to stir things up.
238

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/03/2008 12:29:30
#14 Dave

I wouldn't call Margaret Thatcher fat.
239

Geoff,

sa 21/03/2008 12:31:59
261 connaughtboy-I doubt if a rump UK would hold back military contracts "out of spite". Rather look at it from the other side. The British Govt., as far as is practicable,would want to keep British military orders in britain sustaining british jobs.But If Scotland is no longer part of Britain(political) then surely you can work it out from here..
240

Hamish Scott,

21/03/2008 12:33:34
#266
Geoff - so if Scotland is Tibet, who is China?

BTW The Swiss have sat in the centre of Europe and for hundreds of years have never been invaded, why is that?
241

Allan Murray,

21/03/2008 12:34:18
if Ireland can feild a credible army why cant we?

why do people line up to say that we as scots are inadequate people

do you feel? inadequate I dont

Playing the sympathy card again

Laughable stuff from Cairns. Also, how treacherous can this little man get. A Scot describing Scotland as a foreign country.

But if Scotland leave the uk you will become a foreign country
242

Conan the Librarian™,

21/03/2008 12:34:49
264
We all know your rascist attitude to the Irish.

Current overseas deployment of the Irish Army

Kosovo (KFOR) - 35th Infantry Group
Bosnia (EUFOR Althea) - MNTF (Finland)
Lebanon (UNIFIL) - 36th Infantry Group 1.st Finn/Irish battalion
Chad (EUFOR Chad/CAR) - Ranger expeditionary force
243

Thistledhu,

Fife 21/03/2008 12:36:35
#264/266 can i suggest that instead of baseing your opinion of the Irish armed forces on boreing jokes you actualy check the facts

The irish Army is fully manned with a waitng list to join

they now have a state of the art rifle called the styer aug

new euro helicopters new apc,s the list goes on

they do lack credible fighter aircraft but there is a strong rumour of a secret agreement with britain over air cover check the facts for your self
244

Thistledhu,

Fife 21/03/2008 12:36:46
#264/266 can i suggest that instead of baseing your opinion of the Irish armed forces on boreing jokes you actualy check the facts

The irish Army is fully manned with a waitng list to join

they now have a state of the art rifle called the styer aug

new euro helicopters new apc,s the list goes on

they do lack credible fighter aircraft but there is a strong rumour of a secret agreement with britain over air cover check the facts for your self
245

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/03/2008 12:44:35
#269 Geoff

Many military contracts are already awarded to non-British companies. Why would an independent Scotland be an exception to this?

246

Thistledhu,

Fife 21/03/2008 12:57:11
Lets remember an oil produceing nation is never short of freinds willing to gain favour through trade
247

Thistledhu,

fife 21/03/2008 12:58:35
278 do you watch the news? have you seen what is happening in Kosovo and chad lately
248

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 21/03/2008 13:03:26
#264 You obviously speak in ignorance and that is plain for all to see. Oh! and take note,your anti-Irish slip is showing.
249

E. Smith,

Central Texas 21/03/2008 13:10:01
Oh, how "The Scotsman" loves hyperbole:

1) Defense contracts both in the European Union and in the United States typically go to the lowest bidder. Presumably, this practice would continue as Westminister tried to procure the best weapons for the best price. Israel, for example, furnishes weaponry for both the US and China.

2) In the US armed forces at least, military personnel don't have to be citizens of the US but can be foreign nationals.

3) If Scotland gains independence, wouldn't it have some kind of commonwealth status?

4) If Scotland is independent, presumably it would join NATO as most European countries have. Countries are frequently drawn into wars by mutual defense treaties. Ireland, of course, during World War II was a special case, as is Switzerland.

5) Even the most ardent Scottish Nationalists shouldn't burn any bridges to England quite yet--if they have some financial acumen.

6) The war with Iraq is not popular in Scotland (nor in the US for that matter), or haven't you been following the American presidential elections. So don't necessarily equate Americans with the English. The US is a multi-cultural society (as are increasingly both Scotland and England).
250

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 21/03/2008 13:10:06
#264 Happy anti-Irish bigot. Please tell me where can I find the Scottish army? Haaaaa Haaaaaa Haaaaaa Haaaaaaaa!
251

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 13:10:33
254

And the basis for the UKs defence policies are to start wars with everybody and anybody wherever and whenever they get the chance.
252

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 13:11:46
283

In Iraq and Afganistan.
253

yockel,

21/03/2008 13:12:26
Presumably all Cairns really meant was that if we were a forgein country that part of the MOD budget fraudulently claimed to be spent in Scotland but actually spent in England would have to be properly accounted for.
Alternatively he really meant it which just shows he knows absolutely nothing about existing MOD procurement. Just as well he would lose his job as Scottish minister then.
254

Conan the Librarian™,

21/03/2008 13:13:48
278
Not Rascist? I quote from The SoS 24/02/2008 14:59:59: "Very happy English after all I have been blessed not to be born Irish. Of course it was ranked fourth in the global peace index because they are a bunch of cowards, letting the IRA run over there borders letting the Germans use there Ports after killing British troops, use all of the Information you want about Bog Island it does not change what they are."
255

Thistledhu,

Fife 21/03/2008 13:16:49
#285 yep there is only 5 battalions left in the now Royal Regiment of Scotland 2 are about to deploy to afghanistan one is in Iraq tells a story i think
256

Gothic Rose,

21/03/2008 13:18:14
The "Isle of Man" seems to manage.
257

Thistledhu,

Fife 21/03/2008 13:26:45
this year january i think was there last fateality
and re the ww11 while british crashed airmen were allowed to return to the fight via the border germans were held in prison camps. british maritime patrol aircraft were allowed to fly over donegal to patrol the atlantic hardley fits with your german ships in ports does it?

if your going to be a bigot at least research your facts to back your opinion.
258

Boswall,

21/03/2008 13:28:22
#259 Geoff

Agreed (from a fellow unionist).
259

The Artic Fox,

Oakville Canada 21/03/2008 13:35:18
'Scots defence industry will be decimated' - As a former serviceman I'd like to comment. The industry has and continues to be decimated by poor planning, decision making and perverse logic.

The recent examples of the Typhoon (fighter without a gun system?), Aircraft carriers deployed without Harriers are the painful and embarrassing results of real day to day gross incompetence at the MOD. In accountability the department is as transparent as a politicians expense account.

Regardless, I think this is were EU compition rules might kick in to an independent Scotland's advantage. There are rules to ensure free and fair consideration for all applicable and open Defense contracts, the vast majority are. I feel the Scots'industry needn't worry too much and yes AM2 'scaremongering' definately applies in this case.

After 22 years service on operations, training and peacetime duties UK Defence Planning = Westminster Organisation = HUGE oxymoron. Remember those in the Labour Govenment, they never served and it's so bloody obvious.

Check this link to lighten the topic, some of you may have seen it already:

http://www.funnieststuff.net/viewmovie.php?id=733

260

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 21/03/2008 13:36:13
What he has said is fundamentally true. "0 thousand plus jobs will be lost. It does not matter however as they are only neocon imperialist warmongering jobs anyway.
261

Sam,

Washington DC 21/03/2008 13:38:54
#282 offers moot comments. Islamo-facism has broken the European will to resist through only a few primitive terror bombings. It would be a pointless effort for American sailors, airmen, soldiers or marines to waist their blood defending folk who cannot be bothered defending themselves. Scotland and the rest of Europe stand alone...on your side of the pond. Best of luck and enjoy your future.
262

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 21/03/2008 13:39:01
I meant to type 20 thousand

#293

EU competition laws do not apply to national security ie defence projects. No carrier has ever deployed without harriers. Since the FAw2 has been taken out of service they have either deployed witnh GR9s or been re roled as an LPH and deployed with a helicopter force.
263

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 21/03/2008 13:40:44
#295

Cheers sam those of us that have fought and bled since 2001 really appreciate it but hey at leat blue on blue figures will be down.
264

ehlndh,

London 21/03/2008 13:47:48
Am I alone in now flicking past the innumerable comments by AM2 largely unread? After the first few they have become largely predictable reassertions of belief. They often seem to me to be coupled, regrettably, with overtones of assumed superiority generally and vague menace towards those of differing views.
The relationship between the present and former sovereign entities within the British Isles is important not only to the citizens of these entities but, given the significant role played by the United Kingdom in international commerce and politics, to the wider world.
It needs debate and adjustment on a rational and analytical basis if everyone's interests are to be optimally served, not mindless repetition of support for the status quo.
The only sovereign entities within the British Isles that existed when the United Kingdom was formed in 1603 were England and Scotland. This remained true at the time of the Union of Parliaments in 1707.
Neither England nor Scotland was a parliamentary democracy in the modern sense at either time. Since 1707 there has been some movement towards political settlements reflecting popular feeling, notably in relation to Ireland and the Welsh, but the relationship between England and Scotland has not moved far enough, and now clearly needs re-framing
265

Miss Jean Brodie,

21/03/2008 13:48:06
Labour are a deluded bunch of paranoid, right wing, fascist policy politicians.

increasing police powers - becoming involved in unnecissary wars - pushing for id cards - abolishing/ignoring human rights laws

Scotland would be far better free of this government and any London Controled Government
266

ehlndh,

London 21/03/2008 13:49:26
And further to my earlier post just now, as a Scot who has spent a lot of his life in England and outside the UK, I can tell defenders of the present situation that most people without Scottish connections living in England (whether their ancestors have been there since time immemorial or only since the 20th century) think they live in a nation state called England. Most think the term “England” is synonymous with “the UK” or “Britain”.
A high proportion of people without Scottish connections in Europe and North America share this belief.
Many people without Scottish connections living in England also think Scotland is largely financially supported by England. They are unaware of or do not recognize what Scotland has contributed to the UK exchequer since 1707, if they acknowledge it has contributed at all. Those who are aware of a contribution generally take no account of its variation with time as industries and resources have waxed and waned.
Most people without Scottish connections living in England do not recognize the contribution made to the UK economy by the large number of Scots who have settled and worked in England. They largely ignore or undervalue the contribution of Scots to the British armed forces.
267

Thistledhu,

Fife 21/03/2008 13:49:28
295 an American who actualy knows that there is a world beyond the us east coast now thats progress!!!!
268

ehlndh,

London 21/03/2008 13:50:48
And further again to my earlier two posts Most people without Scottish connections living in England think of Scotland as a small appendage to England, shrouded in mist and rain for much of the time (a mindset unfortunately enhanced by the current BBC national weather map showing the British Isles from a satellite positioned somewhere over France).
Most people without Scottish connections living in England are unaware that the land area of Scotland is 66% that of England.
Most people without Scottish connections living in England (and, it would appear, some Scots supporters of the status quo) also assume that were Scotland to have its own sovereign parliament (regardless of whether it remained a kingdom or became a republic) a "United Kingdom" (which they presumably think would consist of England, Wales and Northern Ireland) would still exist, the assets of which would be those of the present UK (consisting of England and Scotland plus, because of developments since formation of the UK in 1603, Northern Ireland and Wales) whereas in fact Scotland owns, because it has contributed towards them through taxation and in other ways, probably about 11% of those assets.
Among some sections of English society, notably some of the press, there is currently an unpleasant anti-Scottish stance. The Daily Telegraph, a newspaper for which I have otherwise considerable respect, is at present particularly given to this. A correspondent recently felt impelled to point out that some of its anti-Scottish comment would, if it had been directed towards coloured people or Jews, likely have rendered it liable to prosecution.
I have relatives by marriage who are English. My children are a quarter English. I have innumerable friends, acquaintances and former colleagues of all nationalities, creeds and colours. I am not remotely anti-English but feel there is a substantial need for the relationship between England and Scotland to be redefined.
One obvious step within the present structur
269

ehlndh,

London 21/03/2008 13:53:18
Sorry to go on but, to continue:
One obvious step within the present structure would seem to me to be rapid establishment of an English devolved parliament, and creation of a UK parliament dealing only with matters not germane to devolved English and Scottish parliaments and Welsh and Northern Irish assemblies.
More generally, some sort of federal solution would also seem worthy of consideration, in the interests of all inhabitants of the present UK.
The contributions of David Cairns, other Westminster Labour politicians and AM2 clearly relate only to their own interests, and as many other contributors have pointed out make little sense. Labour won the last election with an exceptionally small popular vote, and on a minority vote in England. Its interests and those of current Westminster politicians generally now need to come well second to the wider interests of all inhabitants of the British Isles.
That's all folks, you'll doubtless be relieved to hear
270

Geoff,

21/03/2008 13:53:27
270 Hamish Scot-who knows who Scotlands China is or will be. The Swiss have never been invaded-yes but Austria sits in the middle of Europe and they were! Belgium never did anybody any harm and they were! Denmark didnt harm a fly and they were! Poland...
273-Thistledu-I never made any jokes about the Irish army-I have great admiration for Irish soldiers. What I said was that they have no credible means of Defence-no navy and no airforce of any consequence.
Also if the Irish have a secret agreement with Britain over fighter aircraft-well,I rest my case. So what you are saying is that Britain is a warmonger but its OK to call on her and let her pay when the sh1t hits the fan!
276 Connaughtboy-an independent Scotland wouldnt(and shouldnt) be excluded from future military contracts but it would be on a "compete with everybody else basis"-not on the present preferred status.
289 Gothic Rose-the Isle of Man is covered by the Uk's forces
271

Miss Jean Brodie,

21/03/2008 13:58:25
Reading through the postings on this list - most people who support the union are Paranoid

This indicates to me that Scots (nationalists) are naturally confident and comfortable with threats of violence and can deal with it when the need arises ! Others are not!
272

Thistledhu,

21/03/2008 13:59:29
#303 ehlndh jeez is it true you read war and peace in one sitting.

but jokeing aside fair point well presented.

Westminster based politiceons rely on disinformation and spin to maintain the status quo
273

Thistledhu,

fife 21/03/2008 14:03:09
geof your not reading my points the army and navy elements of the irish defence forces are well manned and equipd only lacking in air defence my point is if they with a population of 3 million can do that why could scotland not?
274

Shaken,

21/03/2008 14:03:24
#295

People like yourself make America the shameless self serving laughing stock of the world that you know you are...alomost as incisive and intelligent as your president

Amercia started a war for oil. Firstly by organising the bombing of the twin towers secondly invading Afghanistan then Iraq dressing it up to be something grander (evil! axis of evil!) than it was.

Scotland only need an army if we are to participate in wars the US create. I think the 1st step of independence would be distancing us from US foriegn policy. The economy, the people and the govt are all poor. -

275

ehlndh,

London 21/03/2008 14:05:19
#306
Thanks for amusing and supportive comment Thistledhu. Can't remember now how long it took for War and Peace.
I realise I went on a bit but I got particularly riled by the story that prompted my comment and some responses to it.
276

brettgallacher,

edinburgh 21/03/2008 14:05:55
who would we need to defend ourselves against all the migrants or the english again who raped ,murdered stole anything that could move ie our oil lets rise and be a nation again not the english toyboy
277

Shaken,

21/03/2008 14:06:15
#304

You miss the point. The sh*t hits the fan because of British and US foriegn policy. Reason - Bush is a muppet and Labour are poodles..
278

Allan(handofgod137),

I was born under a union flag. 21/03/2008 14:11:39
So the snp's smoke and mirrors policies are in tatters once more. Yet again they haven't looked at the big issues surrounding independance.
279

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA........Hillary for Pres....Barack Hus 21/03/2008 14:12:15
'Scots defence industry will be decimated'
---------------------------------------------
Hey Dudes.

The above statement, is it another joke. Who the hell is David Cairns, is he one of Ur typical political squawkers.

The Scots defense industry exists and survives only because of ENGLAND, the US and other large European countries who mey or may not decide to place part of their military contracts with Scots manufacturing.

That's all it is Dudes . So STOP squawking about England and the US or U may KILL THE GOOSE that lays Ur golden eggs.

Last month Feb. the US Air Force awarded a $35 billion (£17.5 billion) contract to a consortium of US /French/British companies, to build the next generation of air fuel tankers . They awarded this contract over the Boeing Co, who built these tankers in the past for the US Air Force.

The total value of this long term contract is near $100 billion over next 30 years..

Should the main contractor Northrop Grumman (US) or its main sub-contractor EADS (France) choose to have work done in Scotland foor parts .Great for the Scots.

BUt for DOG sake stop all squawking and whining and as for this David Cairns he has no control nor can he do a damn thing about anything that effect military work coming to Scotland.

Right now Boeing is challenging this award with the GAO here in the States.

GC
280

Geoff,

sa 21/03/2008 14:12:44
293 Artic fox-agree that the MoD are a disaster. As you say-aircraft carriers with no Harriers and even the ones they share with the RAF have no self defence capability! Pathetic.

303 Ehlndh-agree with most of what you say apart from your remarks re AM2. I have always found his contributions to be moderate and well reasoned although he can be a little more forthright than i am on occassions. With regard to your federal suggestions-see my post at 213.
281

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 21/03/2008 14:19:26
#314

The GR9 is a ground attack aircraft designed for close air support and has been crucial in Afghanistan. Civvies should not be allowed to post on military threads.
282

Geoff,

sa 21/03/2008 14:19:40
307 Thistledu-the Irish Navy is no more than a minor coastal defence force and the Airforce has not a single plane capable of air defence or anything but token ground attack. I am sure Scotland could produce fine armed forces but the political will seems lacking in some SNP circles. Also a a unionist I think it would be a great tragedy to break up the RN RAF and British army.
283

ehlndh,

London 21/03/2008 14:20:22
#314
Being a reasonable being I'll re-read AM2 posts with as much detachment as I can, in the light of your comments.
I'll also read your comment #213. I've only had time so far to see read the first 100 or so posts in detail
284

Sedov,

Scotland 21/03/2008 14:22:21
What is needed is a bold alernative strategy of public works and usefull products to replace the jobs producing military hardware including nuclear weapons. We should only need a standing military force to defend our country if need be. The problem is that the SNP and their left nationalist supporters, including the rump left within the SSP etc, think that they can get rid of nuclear weapons etc without tackling the system that makes these devices neccessary under capitalism, thus, they are as bad as the warmongers because they sow illusions within their ranks that they are radical and left of centre. In fact the NATS have not the bottle or inclination to take the system on because they have too many links with the big businesses that rely on the arms industry to maintain their high profits. Dream on you SNP losers your leaders have sold you another dummy because rhetoric is empty without action.
285

ehlndh,

London 21/03/2008 14:24:35
Re #213 and 314:

Yes. I agree with what you say in post 213.
286

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA........Hillary for Pres....Barack Hus 21/03/2008 14:25:11
#313 contd:
Dudes,
If the Scots continue to bad mouth England and any other country they select , they might as well shut-up-shop and go to the pubs where Ur can wallow in ur past loses, and squawk all u want.

As for Scotland going independent, the EU will control every breath U take, and U will wish U had stayed put with the BAD BAD English.

Those Bureaucrats in the EU Brussels, will eat u up and spit u out when they feel like it. U will tow their line or else, th EU will punish U..

GC
287

Geoff,

sa 21/03/2008 14:25:49
315 All politicians-you did not read my post. I GR9 is a dedicated ground attack aircraft. The sea Harrier had a self defence capability and was able to provide air cover for the fleet. The GR9 can not fulfil this role despite being crucial in another theatre-Afghanistan. the Uk fleet relies on the yanks for air cover when out of range of ground based air cover
288

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 21/03/2008 14:31:20
#322

We do not generally deploy as a fleet. Also air cover is not realy required unless you are under threat of air attack. That really does not apply anywhere in the world at the moment. Also surface to air missiles provide quite a lot of seld defence. We do not rely on the "yanks"
289

iain morrison,

nairn 21/03/2008 14:41:42
David Cairns, warned last night that independence would "decimate" the country's defence industry. He told The Scotsman that the Westminster government would not be prepared to award lucrative contracts for military hardware to a "foreign country" -

So Mr Cairns does this mean the UK is cancelling, F-35 V/Stol carrier and land based aircraft from the US, is going to stop using belgium munitions, is going to stop renting trident missiles from the US, is no longer going to deploy US harpoon anti-ship missiles,is going to abandon US Chinhook helicopters,how about the US AMRAAM air to air missile system, also US AWACs aircratt, or the US sidewinder air to air missile syatem, or teh US aegies AAD missile system,or US browning heavy MG,or the french Mian AT missile,or swedish NLAW AT system,or the US MBRS rocket system,or US Bell212 helicopters.

Mr Cairns methinks you got it wrong because all the above "lucrative harware contracts" have already gone to "foreign countries".
290

Allan Murray,

21/03/2008 14:45:01
People like yourself make America the shameless self serving laughing stock of the world that you know you are...alomost as incisive and intelligent as your president

And Scotland call the English arogant. Trouble with Scotland is you want every achievement to be recognised by the world you want to be patted on the back and be praised like some sort of child.
Its not England fault you dont get the praise you want, you have ago at the English press being Anti-Scottish because they never put Scotlands achievement in there paper or news programs.
why cant you do it last i heard you had a press of your own.
Its not Englands fault you are not recognised as much a sEngland around the world.
What it boils down to is Scotland wanting to be noticed.
Stop playing the victim
291

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 21/03/2008 14:51:13
#324

This is getting boring now. For a start Scotland does not produce any of that technology. We are talking about building things.
The Uk is a full partner in the F35 bthey will be built in the NW of England. belguim does supply some 7.62mm but we also use a lot of royal ordonance stuff. trident d5 is unuique and we cannot make our own. The Chinook is indeed a boeing helicopter used all over the world. AMRAAM is being replaced by meteor a european missile. AWACS is the only system in the world. Sidewinder has already been replaced by ASRAAM, type 45 has PAAMS not AEGIS. the 50 cal machine guns are made in the UK. I guess you meant Milan which has been replaced by Javelin. If you are going to post military facts at least know what you are talking about.
292

,

21/03/2008 14:56:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
293

oddoneout,

21/03/2008 14:56:15
my my there are quite a few ruffled feathers here today. The independance that the SNP is looking for is total, no ties, no agreements, absolutely nothing to do with the rest of the UK. who would this hurt? answer everyone. Scotland England Wales Northern Ireland. The economic fallout would hurt evry man woman and child in what is now the UK.it is not being helped by the current political situation .The current state of affairs is that Labour are running scared, because they have become right wing instead of left wing and care nothing for the people that formed the roots of the party. Scotland will never vote conservative (who was mentioning vindictive) the Lib dems are short of support as they seem to want to change evrything that people think is good. That leaves us with the SNP who want us to vote for yet more politicians and civil servants. Damned if you do damned if you don't..but hey who said life was easy
294

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow belongs to the SUPER SCOTS! 21/03/2008 15:12:23
#287 Conan. You are at nothing trying to talk sense into "happy english" He or She is a lost hatemonger and bigot,and part of a fast diminishing tribe within these islands. Oh! and I forgot to mention the fact that he is a registered LIAR!
295

Electric Hermit,

21/03/2008 15:13:09
#330 oddoneout

"The independance that the SNP is looking for is total, no ties, no agreements, absolutely nothing to do with the rest of the UK."

This bears not the remotest resemblance to any statement of SNP policy that I have ever seen. If independence is such an obviously bad idea as they claim, why do fanatical unionists have to lie in an effort to make it look like a bad idea?

Or is lying such an ingrained habit that they just can't help themselves. Poor souls!
296

Allan Murray,

21/03/2008 15:16:25
If Scotland is so keen on independence why not let England vote for independence for you i ?
previous polls have already proven that the English would vote it through. unlike the Scottish that are less likely to vote for it but will then blame the English for it.
Why would the English do that for you, you may ask yourselves?
its pretty easy to answer the endless playing of the victim card is boring, we are fed up of Scotlands inferiority complex being blamed on us.
We are fed up of being blamed for the union bringing both countries together.
When it was a Scottish king and the clans leaders that sold you out.
297

An Beal Bacht,

21/03/2008 15:16:46
David Cairns does a wind up and succeeds by the look of these posts. He's such a kidder.
298

iain morrison,

nairn 21/03/2008 15:17:23
#328

I never said Scotland produced any of the equipment but David Cairns did say -the Westminster government would not be prepared to award lucrative contracts for military hardware to a "foreign country".

On the F35 there is a big difference between assemble and build and what kind full partner(HaHaHa)only gets to assemble its own kit and export none?

Trident unfortunatly is not independent, is rented and is not unique, is rented the French, Chinese and Russians make their owm SLBMs as well.

The Meteor you may not also imported.

The US AWACs is not "the only system in the world" - Once again the Chinese , Russians, Isrealies and Swedes have all developed their own.

Sidewinder has not yet been replaced according to the RAF web site two minutes ago.

AEGIS I got wrong (Must conect mind to keyboard better).

The 50 cal machine guns are not all made in UK and once again those that are are more assembled than made.

Javelin is again US and is in process of replacing Milan, so your point is another foreign contract so what?







299

,

21/03/2008 15:17:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
300

Electric Hermit,

21/03/2008 15:20:57
I'm sure the people of Scotland, on hearing David Cairns words, will not have failed to note that it is the British Labour Party's stated intention to punish them with economic sanctions should they dare to exercise their democratic right of self-determination.
301

Geoff,

sa 21/03/2008 15:24:58
323-all politicians-think we are talking at cross purposes about different scenarios. Ships need aircover-in the case of the UK this will be taken care of by the F35 and the type 45's when they(eventually) see service. In the interim, the air defence role as fulfilled by the Sea Harrier has left a big gap in the maritime theatre. If you are fighting the Taliban who have no air assets then obviously the air to air role is not required. But if you send HMS Illustrious in a task force to the gulf where it is within the range of land based aircraft then at presen,the Royal Navy only has weapons such as ship to air missiles with which to ward off air attack. These are insufficient and as i understand it the RN is restricted to joint operations with the USN in these scenarios.
302

Geoff,

sa 21/03/2008 15:25:00
323-all politicians-think we are talking at cross purposes about different scenarios. Ships need aircover-in the case of the UK this will be taken care of by the F35 and the type 45's when they(eventually) see service. In the interim, the air defence role as fulfilled by the Sea Harrier has left a big gap in the maritime theatre. If you are fighting the Taliban who have no air assets then obviously the air to air role is not required. But if you send HMS Illustrious in a task force to the gulf where it is within the range of land based aircraft then at presen,the Royal Navy only has weapons such as ship to air missiles with which to ward off air attack. These are insufficient and as i understand it the RN is restricted to joint operations with the USN in these scenarios.
303

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 21/03/2008 15:25:59
#338 happy english. You are an ar*ehole and a LIAR! Is that clear enough for you? Oh! and a sick bigot.
304

Hamish Scott,

21/03/2008 15:30:34
#304
Geoff - It was a rhetorical question, I thought the answer was obvious. As far as I am aware Scotland has only ever been invaded by one country in the last 1000 years, though they made up for that by doing it quite a lot.
Switzerland has never been defended because it's not on the way to anywhere and mountainous. The Swiss have a citizen army trained for guerilla warfare. Anyone invading would suffer high casualties. Belgium is low lying and most importantly lies between Germany and France (if you're a German army wanting to invade France but avoid French fortifications on the FRanco-German border). Denmark is low-lying and bang next to Germany. The good news is that Scotland is like Switzerland - mountainous terrain and out of the way - that's why we only lost our independence through bribery, economic blackmail and guile.
305

Hamish Scott,

21/03/2008 15:32:53
#344
That should read "Switzerland has never been invaded"
306

Gothic Rose,

21/03/2008 15:34:21
304 Geoff.
Precisely,they have it both ways.Independance and Protection.Sounds just Perfect.:)
307

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 21/03/2008 15:37:12
#338 happy english........No reply to #342? I thought as much ,you sick coward. Well! I'm off for the cup that cheers. Someone please take over and give happy english the bigot,a good kicking.
308

Allan Murray,

21/03/2008 15:38:13
The good news is that Scotland is like Switzerland - mountainous terrain and out of the way - that's why we only lost our independence through bribery, economic blackmail and guile.

(((((((We were bought and sold for English Gold))))))
Put basically greed, and that England bailed you out of the failed Darien Scheme
309

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 21/03/2008 15:38:24
#341

The gulf is a bad example as it is surrounded by land based air cover but yes we do not have any organic air assets in the case of anothe Falklands.

#336 Economies of scale mean that bwe cannot research design and build all our own high end kit. Th ebest we can do a lot of the time is build it and thereby gurantee some jobs. What the story is correctly saying is tha an Independent Scotland would not be assemblin type 45 or building any aircraft carriers.

310

Hamish Scott,

21/03/2008 15:43:48
#349
Allan - whatever, you rewrite history and everything else as you want - good day.
311

Alfie Bett,

21/03/2008 15:46:03
I wonder if any of the Empire loyalists/unionists on these comment boards have ever visited Norway,a country comparable with Scotland in many ways, population,resources,having a similar outlook but unlike the remaining unionists here they have no delusions of being part of a miltary power or building great engines of destruction that they can ill afford just to posture on the world stage,no, go up the fjords and you will find great contruction yards,but instead of building warships, they have designed and built some of the biggest and innovative structures in the North Sea and so put themselves in the forefront of marine and structural engineering world wide,they are already operating a carbon capture facility on the Sleipner CO2 project and as they had no need to wait on handouts from an unsympathetic government hundreds of miles away to help with R&D they have already branched into tidal power and have a tidal power plant up and running near Hammerfest.
Their military is purely a defence orientated force with no need or desire to stick their nose in uninvited at the other side of the planet but they still manage to honour their international obligations nevertheless through the UN.
Unfortunately Scotland cannot emulate them as we at present are still part of the UK and so exist in a dependency atmosphere where the labour government tries to instill fear into workers with barely veiled threats that if they do not support labour they will lose their jobs as this article describes.
This suggests that the SNP is making greater inroads into labour than has been thought and articles like this confirms it, the real possibility that they are close to losing Scotland is obviously worrying them immensely
312

Conan the Librarian™,

21/03/2008 15:46:05
342
Hunky Dorey.
And happy english(neuter) thinks the Galactic Cannibal talks sense. LOL.
313

John south of Soutra,

21/03/2008 15:46:53
My God - AM2, did it take that long for Central HQ to brief you about GB's statement, and I have no leader and have no allegiance to any political party unlike some on this thread.
I can only go by what in published in our glorious press as I have no insight like yourself to the actual interviews.
As I said earlier, the Govt is running scared, otherwise we would not be getting comments like was made by your minister, he would be better ensuring that our troops in Iraq and Afganistan were properly supplied with the right equipment than spoutinmg drivel like he has done
314

Sam,

Washington DC 21/03/2008 15:48:59
308, "Amercia started a war for oil. Firstly by organising the bombing of the twin towers secondly invading Afghanistan". This is the usual tripe floated by Islamo-Fascist Quislings. What is east of the USA is only Greater Arabia. No more American blood for those with water in their veins. Perhaps #308 fancies himself the Emir of Carluke or the Grand Mufti of Orkney. #308 will be the first to queue for Friday prayers in the Grand Mosque of St. Giles.
315

Allan Murray,

21/03/2008 15:50:05
Allan - whatever, you rewrite history and everything else as you want - good day

Cant deal with the facts ? like Tony Blair and Gordon Brown being Scottish.
316

Geoff,

sa 21/03/2008 15:51:43
344 Hamish Scott-thanks for your reply. If Scotland is the country of your heart and you support independence I can understand that and have learned a great deal on this forum over the last couple of years on the Scotsman. As my friend Robbie NZ said-we are two sides of the same coin! I am a Unionist of the heart although I think there are other material arguments for us to stay united. Whatever the outcome, the political setup in the islands of Great Britain and Ireland needs a radical overhaul. Most are agreed on this. How it pans out thereafter-well thats for the future but whatever,current tensions notwithstanding, I am sure the peoples of the Islands will in the words of Joe gargery from "Great Expectations" remain "Ever the best of friends old chap!"
On the subject, I am tied to no party whip-I am an issues man who tries to look at the facts and make a considered opinion. there is much manouvering on both sides of the divide understandably. I can identify with a pacifist philosophy but am also mindful of the realities of our world-talk peace but carry a BIG stick!
317

iain morrison,

Nairn 21/03/2008 15:54:14
~350 I agree with you that we can't "research design and build all our own high end kit" but what David Cairns said again was "the Westminster government would not be prepared to award lucrative contracts for military hardware to a "foreign country"". this is patently untrue.

As a small point nowhere in England does the capacity to construct the Carriers(Do they represent value for money anyway) exist. If not Scotland they would most likely be assembled in France, now that would provoke quiet an English Nationalist backlash would it not.

As to the tone of the statement it does appear to be a threat of sanctions, would they stop using BAE facilities in Scotland?

As another amall point Scotland contributes depending where you stand on the argument between 7 and 14% of British GDP yet only recives about 3% of defence spending, so to me if there was only Scottish defence spending in Scotland it would still represent a net gain in both spend and employment, very different contracts I'll grant you that.
318

Conan the Librarian™,

21/03/2008 15:57:03
359
How many "shrooms" have YOU had today?

Happy english...dude.
319

subrosa,

21/03/2008 15:59:49
# 349 Put basically greed, and that England bailed you out of the failed Darien Scheme

Go read your history. England were mainly responsible for the failing of the Darian affair. They were the ones who told anyone not to give help and bullied them with threats.
320

Geoff,

sa 21/03/2008 16:01:33
353 Alfie bett-re norway and your admiration for them-yes they have self defence forces that basically cant really defend them against a real military power!- as in WW2 when they were overun very quickly by the germans and rscued by the countries that DID have real military power-the UK included.
321

Allan Murray,

21/03/2008 16:04:04
Go read your history. England were mainly responsible for the failing of the Darian affair. They were the ones who told anyone not to give help and bullied them with threats.

England was at war with france and didnt need Scotland upsetting the spanish.
still funny how you swollowed your Scottish pride and let us pay your bills.
322

Conan the Librarian™,

21/03/2008 16:06:10
362
Threats like refusing trade?

Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose:-(
323

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 21/03/2008 16:07:59
The carriers could be constructed on the Tees with the biggest dock in Britain.
324

Conan the Librarian™,

21/03/2008 16:10:26
365
So you ARE a neuter?
I understand your bitterness now.
Did you lose them in some hard fought combat 18 action against ethnic anti-english elements?
325

Shaken,

21/03/2008 16:10:53
#356

I am not a Muslim, not that it should matter just intelligent and discerning - alien concepts I know. Now f*ck off nobody likes you or your country your a scrotal sack.

Scotland do not need an army - we don't bomb anyone let alone Muslims...
326

Sedov,

Scotland 21/03/2008 16:11:54
#352 Alfie Bet- Indeed I have visited Norway a few times and found the people there friendly and warm although their life style was a bit dull for my taste ( wot no beer!) However, independent as norway (thinks) it is, even some of its remotest communities are not immune from the ravages of global capatilism and the credit crunch. For example the towns of Narvik, Hemnes, Ranu and Hattjelldal invested ( betted) 96 million dollars on US financial products designed by Citi-group and sold to them by Terra Securities, a banking arm of the main Norwegan banking groups. Unlucky for them the credit crunch has destroyed most of their value. The moral of the story is that so called nationalism cannot protect you from the global market. Only the unity of all workers internationally can defeat the system.
327

Shaken,

21/03/2008 16:13:53
As an aside do you think we would become part of the axis of evil if we were independent?

After all we would have one the largest oil reserves which seems to equate to being 'evil' though how a whole country can be 'evil' bemuses me as do much of what American knuckledraggers do..

Watch our for the American
328

Conan the Librarian™,

21/03/2008 16:24:09
371
Yes. I was in the 42nd Corner Shop defence Batt.

Those combat 18 boys liked it up'em.
329

Geoff,

sa 21/03/2008 16:29:47
369 Shaken-Scotland do not need an army?!?!
OK so say the rest of us subscribe to this including the USA and say France-lets go the whole hog(almost) and say that we all abandon our armed forces in favour of flower power and reason.
All except China.
China of the ONE POINT THREE BILLION PEOPLE.
China who crushed the defenceless tibetans.
China who needs more space.
What u say shaken??
330

The Artic Fox,

Oakville Canada 21/03/2008 16:31:55
All Politicians are the same,

I'll check my sources on the aircraft carrier. These are normally reliable but not infallible! You may also be right about defence contracts; these may well be exempt from EU competition laws but not tendering rules.

During my time I was part of a trials unit and we evaluated a variety of foreign designed and manufactured weapon system platforms. These were always in direct competition to the efforts of UK suppliers.

The trial, report and award process was long and involved; the ultimate decision well above my pay grade. However many did go to overseas bidders. To make the deal perhaps part of the production had to go to a UK partner or partners.

The bottom line is Scottish companies would not be prevented from bidding on future contracts based on being 'foreign, the statement and sentiment by Mr Cairns = scaremongering.
331

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 16:31:58
The UK needs Scotland as a defence base, nothing more. During both World Wars Scapa Flow was fully utilised as the best naval base in the UK, about a month after the end of both wars the place was just about deserted.
No thought of providing work for the Orkney civilians who had been employed on civil work all through the war years.
The use of Rosyth was fairly similar and at a later date saw the refit of nuclear submarines moved to Davenport for purely political reasons.
332

Conan the Librarian™,

21/03/2008 16:39:30
374
Why, thank you happy(May I call you happy?)
333

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/03/2008 16:46:01
379. AM2, you demonstrate again a near pathological obsession with Salmond and attacking the SNP at any opportunity, driven no doubt by your escalating panic at the continued soaring popularity of both.

The Gordon Brown "Gazza" goal was widely reported in all newspapers, Salmond did not "propagate it". And isn't it a sign of how obsessed and pathetic you are, that a thread about defence, based on silly scare stories, the "false claims" you cite are about a Brown and his football trivia? I would think new Labour propagating false claims about WMD in Iraq ready at 45 minutes that got us into that war and killed thousands might be higher up the list.

Do tell us AM2, why when New Labour lie about war and peace, you think Cairn's and his ridiculous threats are credible?
334

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 21/03/2008 16:48:09
#379 AM2

"for the record I have no party allegiance"

Odd that you single out the SNP as purveyors of propaganda, one might think that you had a stiffy for them above all other parties.
335

Booster,

21/03/2008 16:50:14
If we get independence then sure - things will change. Jobs will be lost and yes new jobs will be created.
But most importantly - we will be in control of our future - not bowing to the whims of the English tossing us a bone or two when it serves them to do so.

Isn't it telling that the only tool in the unionists box is scaremongering and not a compelling, positive case for the union to continue?

336

Conan the Librarian™,

21/03/2008 16:50:48
Well if it fits, happy...

By the way, is there more than one of you?

Since post 346 you seem to be a different poster.

Or have pills been taken?
337

ehlndh,

London 21/03/2008 16:52:06
#375

AM2, Thanks for your comment. I'm sorry if I have misinterpreted your posts. I don't generally have time to read the vast number of posts in detail so tend to skip through them anyway. Some seem to want to suppress debate. From what you say I may have confused yours with others.
I promise to dwell longer on yours in future.
Best wishes
338

Allan Murray,

21/03/2008 16:53:49
Scotland do not need an army - we don't bomb anyone let alone Muslims

No but you country men do try and poison Englands water supplies, and attack innocent people wearing England shirts
339

Conan the Librarian™,

21/03/2008 16:53:53
384
Since the SNP are the only threat to his beloved Union Oscar...But I rather wouldn't think of AM2's stiffy thankyouverymuch.
340

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 16:58:01
David Cairns?

Is he that insignificant little chappie who appears to be in charge of paper clips at the North Britain Office?

Is in not somewhat presumptuous of this clerk, (obviously not cleric), to pre-empt MoD procurement policy for the foreseeable future?

Is the MoD aware that this clown is determining where, and under what circumstances, they will be allowed to source their future equipment requirements?

Or, is it more likely that whatever comments are spouted by this excuse for a man, they won’t even appear on the radar at the MoD?
341

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/03/2008 17:00:19
387. Oh dear, imagine ehindh's dissappointment when, having spent more time on AM2's posts, he finds them to be predictable, rabid and one dimensional attacks on the SNP, irrespective of subject or facts.
342

Sam,

21/03/2008 17:00:29
369, You MAY not be a Muslim but you ARE a Qusiling. That is, a willing conduit for Al Jazera prapaganda every day striving to erode Scots culture and tradition. "Scotland do not need an army - we don't bomb anyone let alone Muslims..." And will that be your song when thousands of cars are burned as in Paris? Will that be your tune when film directors are murdered as in Amsterdam? What will you say when they put a knife to your throat as with Daniel Pearl? Ah yes. Of course, your last thought will be, "It's all America's fault."
343

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 21/03/2008 17:02:04
#389 Ahoy hoy Conan,

The mighty AM2 todger has been known to alarm livestock and give maiden aunts a bout of the vapours. Unfortunately for the clam AM2, it's a self inflating one.

#388 Allan Murray, err feller don't take this the wrong way but your posts have slowly descended from well thought out debates to ...verging on the deranged. Who attempted to poison English water?
344

langtonian,

scotus 21/03/2008 17:04:00
First minister Alex Salmond,leader of the Scottish Executive at Holyrood with a one seat majority,representing the SNP, can apparently say and do anything he so choses, laying before an all embracing party of gov'ernance supported by SNP voters who can be observed to worship every utterance,every alliance,every step of his chosen route along which the SNP will travel.

A route which has a similarity to the march of a lemming like quality that can only end with a similar fate.

Not one member of his front bench,not one SNP member, with one vote, have been seen to dissent with his meetings with ,to name but two, the Iranian Prime Miniter,(he of nuclear bomb pretensions)and the infamouse Irish IRA politico(who was quite at home on Eire TV admiiting to approval of the deaths of UK soldiers in N.I.)
In a democracy ,which we currently enjoy Alex Salmond and his cabinet and all SNP suppoters are quite entitled to select who they support and who they do not,who they believe and who they do not,who they salute as fellow travellers and who they do not.

In the palpable abscence of any disenting voice at any level,all Govnerment ministers and supporters can justifiably be accussed of bringing the the good name of Scotland (as represented by the 75% of voters who did not vote for their policiess.Wishing to remain within the UK as their choice of Parliamentary control.

Alex Salmond is dragging the good Scotish reputation into a mired maze of division.
It is to be hoped with his current visit to the U.S.A.he is grilled by their authoities as to which side he is on,the best we can probably hope for is that "those that live by the sword die by the sword".Not in a physical demise ,by a crushing rebuff from the U.S.A.>
345

Allan Murray,

21/03/2008 17:04:16
Scotland do not need an army:

If Scotland was unlucky enough to be attacked by another country who are you gonna ask to help you out ?


AS FOR:
The bottom line is Scottish companies would not be prevented from bidding on future contracts based on being 'foreign, the statement and sentiment by Mr Cairns

I dont believe a uk mod would stop coming to Scotland for its equipment.
But if they do most of your ship workers i can imagine head south of the border to work in the English dock yards.
346

Allan Murray,

21/03/2008 17:06:45
#388 Allan Murray, err feller don't take this the wrong way but your posts have slowly descended from well thought out debates to ...verging on the deranged. Who attempted to poison English water?

here is a link to the poison issue but you will have to excuse me i sometimes gone on a rant lol

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article3149017.ece
347

Conan the Librarian™,

21/03/2008 17:08:44
394
I had a p*ss in Kieldar water once...
348

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/03/2008 17:10:22
395. Oh dear.

Brown and Blair met McGuinness and Gerry Adams repeatedly. Do you dissaprove of that? The Major government negotiated with the IRA. Why do you think Salmond meeting with McGuiness, whom the UK government negotiated with and installed as deputy FM of N Ireland, is worthy of comment coming as it does after 20 such meetings between Adams, McGuiness and British prime ministers?

Blair met Gadaffi, whom the British government say ordered the explosion that fell on Lockerbie. Is that not more worthy of the tender irrationality of your weird, slavering and non-sensical dribble?
349

Allan Murray,

21/03/2008 17:13:30
I had a p*ss in Kieldar water once

Dont worry you want to see what floats round the river mersey lolol
350

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 21/03/2008 17:16:57
#395 to think that Blair now advocates discussion with Al Quaida must uncurl your pubes in a most alarming fashion Langtonian.
351

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/03/2008 17:17:09
388. I suspect Allan is scrubbing at his forehead with a wee brillo pad trying to erase the "SNP" some fiend scrawled there-upon in blue biro.

They are not only trying to poison your water, I heard they may be stealing your thoughts and channeling secret radio messages into your fillings.

But I am almost certain you know what to do about that.
352

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/03/2008 17:23:40
403. So, New Labour lied about WMD, poorly equip our troops causing avoidable loss of life, are criticsed by coroners for thier lack of support for our troops when serving abroad, have been accused of breaking the militray covenant with poor treament of troops returning, have destroyed Iraq, now say we could be in Afghanistan and Iraq for 20 years, have lied about collaboration with rendition... and you think we should trust them on this defence issue, and keep blathering on about a Gazza goal.
353

Allan Murray,

21/03/2008 17:23:51
388. I suspect Allan is scrubbing at his forehead with a wee brillo pad trying to erase the "SNP" some fiend scrawled there-upon in blue biro.


got to admit that made me Laugh.
354

Electric Hermit,

21/03/2008 17:25:59
#395 langtonian

If by "the Iranian Prime Miniter" you mean President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, when did Alex Salmond meet him? And what of it if he did. Ahmadinejad is the elected international representative of the Iranian people. Why should the elected head of the Scottish Government not meet with him? Salmond is not the lickspittle poodle of the Bush regime that Blair was.

If by "infamouse Irish IRA politico" you mean Martin McGuinness, Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland, similar questions arise. Just how long do you propose to go on living in a past that all the sane people are only too glad to have put behind them?
355

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/03/2008 17:28:01
407. I think he meant the Iranian ambassador to the UK, who was the Scottish parliament as a guest of the Presiding Officer, and who met the leaders of all political parties.
356

Sedov,

Scotland 21/03/2008 17:29:55
#385 Booster I admire your optimism and those like you. Unfortunately your dreams, like many before you, will be shattered on the boulevard of reality. It is totally niave to think that by declaring independence Scotland will be in total control of its own affairs. The world is owned and controlled by around 250 monopolies who are tied to international finance. Scotland may have the decision to build a new bridge over the Forth but it will have little say in the amount of private capital which will be either invested or taken out under so called independence and wil have to pander to the whims of the Donald Trumps of this world. I's got very little to do with unionism which is a red herring as England and your fellow workers in Yorkshire or Sussex have little influence as well on the market economy. Dream on my son, I won't gloat when the realism sinks in.
357

An Beal Bacht,

21/03/2008 17:32:27
David Cairns isn't human - he's an alien from the planet Transfalmadore. The dominant species on that planet are reptilian in appearance and biology; they are cold blooded, and have the chameleon like capacity to alter their appearance. In addition, they are generally hostile to all other life forms and will try to bore you to death without provocation. Beware!
358

Electric Hermit,

21/03/2008 17:34:40
#408 Ayrshire Scot™

I'm obliged to you for your translation from the Gibberish.

My point still stands, however. Why shouldn't Alex Salmond meet with the ambassador? It is part of his job, is it not?

Or could it be that such rational questions are out of place being addressed to such an irrational rant?
359

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 21/03/2008 17:36:47
#404 Fear not AM2, neither Conan or I will impugn your integrity regarding your inflatable todger.
360

Hamish Scott,

21/03/2008 17:38:17
#376
Geoff - I wouldn't go for no army for Scotland but China? Why come all the way here, past half the rest of the world? I doubt if China has sufficient 'global reach' in any case. Only the US can project significant military force across the globe. BTW Costa Rica abolished its army in 1948 - still not invaded.
361

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/03/2008 17:38:27
411. I think it quite appropriate that Salmond met the Iranian Ambassador to the UK. Indeed, the UK prime minister has met the chap. As for the rest of Langtonian's rant, it makes no sense. He says Salmond damages Scotland's reputation by meeting Martin McGuinness when McGuinness has been in 10 Downing street repeatedly meeting UK prime ministers for years. Perhaps Langtonian should worry that being part of the UK's illegal wars, slaughter and chaos in Iraq, and rendition/ torture is perhaps slightly more demaging to our reputation that Salmond meeting people such as McGuinness in an official capacity.
362

Lovepan,

England 21/03/2008 17:40:01
23.4 per cent of employment in Scotland is in the Public sector and up to 40 per cent in Glasgow.

The reason for this high number is due to large organisations such as the Army Pensions and Student Loans being based there. They serve the UK, just as our driving licences are issued from Wales.

While it is conceivable that they would remain in place after independence, you must bear in mind that the English, Welsh and Northern Irish voters may no longer want these jobs located in a foreign country - and that includes shipbuilding.

It may not be fair, but that's the reality.

Scotland is much more loved by other constituent parts of the UK than they love Belgium or Germany, and therefore, in reciprocation, as in the break up of a marriage, you wish to hurt the one who hurt you, and that means re-locating work - for the sake of my Scottish family I hope that never happens.

There are wonderful ship-building capabilities in Ulster and the Tyne, which are screaming for the governmnet contracts.

By the by, let's not forget the political transport of the British Leyland factories to Glasgow in the 1970's leading to direct job cuts in Birmingham. For decades, work has been planted in Scotland.
363

Roy Forrester,

Bloomsburg USA 21/03/2008 17:40:41
Ref #122 Allan Murray
You may be correct but I have to remind you that it was the Westminster Parliament with some 650 MPs, the majority of whom voted to go to war. The same applied to the US Congress where the majority of congressmen and senators voted for war. Not only that, the voters in both countries returned the leaders of the war vote to power at the next general election.
364

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/03/2008 17:41:21
413. AM2, when the messeneger is New Labour, who told us Iraq had WMD, we would be greeted as "Liberators" and who ill-eqip our soldiers I find their pronouncements on defence lacking in credibility.

Especially when the message is the rump-UK will not source defence equipment from foreign countries, despite the fact it already does that today. Seems like a stupid message, you would think the Uk would just source its defence equipment based on cost and quality, even from foreign suppliers as it does now. Or is the rump-UK so spiteful it would embargo Scotland - if that is what Cairns is saying why does he advocate staying in a unioni with such fiends?
365

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/03/2008 17:42:55
417. Post independence there would be almost no rump-UK government jobs based in Scotland - perhaps an ambassador.
366

Allan Murray,

21/03/2008 17:45:17
You may be correct but I have to remind you that it was the Westminster Parliament with some 650 MPs, the majority of whom voted to go to war. The same applied to the US Congress where the majority of congressmen and senators voted for war. Not only that, the voters in both countries returned the leaders of the war vote to power at the next general election.

I agree with you totally what i was doing was destroying the myth that some Scots have that they had nothing to do with taking us to war.
But instead they believe that is was strictly a English war.
367

Electric Hermit,

21/03/2008 17:48:51
#417 Lovepan

"...you must bear in mind that the English, Welsh and Northern Irish voters may no longer want these jobs located in a foreign country..."

It is naive in the extreme to imagine that consideration of the wishes of voters plays any part in such decisions.

What Cairns is doing is as unsubtle as it is despicable. Speaking on behalf of the British Labour Party, Cairns is openly threatening economic sanctions as retaliation for Scottish voters choosing independence.
368

Iain's,

21/03/2008 17:50:10
Not to worry, how will the remaining UK do without Scotland's oil, gas and whisky?

Also Scots will stop dying in that filthy Blairite adventure in Iraq.

This kind of stuff just shows that a free Scotland is a reality and could happen in the next few years.

Let's go for it at the next election!
They have everything to lose!
369

Electric Hermit,

21/03/2008 17:52:00
#420 Ayrshire Scot™

"Post independence there would be almost no rump-UK government jobs based in Scotland - perhaps an ambassador."

And who the hell are you to make such a decision?
370

An Beal Bacht,

21/03/2008 17:52:18
A wee song for Davie Cairns:

It suits today the meek and base
Whose minds are fixed on self and place
To cringe beneath daft Gordon's frown
And haul our sacred emblem down.
But we'll raise Scotland's standard high
Beneath its folds we'll live and die
Tho' cowards flinch and traitors sneer
We'll keep the Scots flag flying here
371

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 21/03/2008 17:54:02
I suppose Cairns believes his pronouncement is really intended only for the McDefence classes.
372

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/03/2008 17:54:53
425. Hermit

if the UK no longer exists, there will be no UK government jobs. The rest of the UK is indeed unlikley to locate its civil service staff outwith that country if Scotland is independent.

373

An Beal Bacht,

21/03/2008 17:55:15
Electric Hermaphrodite asks:

Who the hell am I and why am I talking pish?
374

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/03/2008 17:57:46
427. "go out if its way"? No, I expect companies and consumers in Scotland would buy goods and services based on cost and quality, as companies and consumers do in countries all across the world, which gives rise to international trade old bean. I fully expect alot of these will be English - and a good thing too. I don't think the English are spiteful, I was ridiculing the idea that the English would punish Scotland for a democratic decision.

375

Electric Hermit,

21/03/2008 17:59:49
#427 AM2

In your desperation to defend the indefensible, you miss a crucial point. Cairns is not talking about denying defence-related contracts to Scotland on some rational basis such as cost/benefit analysis. He is threatening that Scotland will be excluded from such contracts solely as punishment for seceding from the union.

And the man is an evident idiot. EU competition rules would prohibit exclusion on such petty grounds.
376

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/03/2008 18:02:16
432. A good point.
377

Allan Murray,

21/03/2008 18:03:37
What Cairns is doing is as unsubtle as it is despicable. Speaking on behalf of the British Labour Party, Cairns is openly threatening economic sanctions as retaliation for Scottish voters choosing independence

Has it crossed your mind that Cairns may be telling the truth and not scaremongering.

Not to worry, how will the remaining UK do without Scotland's oil, gas and whisky?

well when you pluck up the courage and go it alone we will find out. You over play the oil and gas card, you seem to have this idea what would be left of the UK would crumble without Scotland.

Also Scots will stop dying in that filthy Blairite adventure in Iraq.

This kind of stuff just shows that a free Scotland is a reality and could happen in the next few years.

Let's go for it at the next election!
They have everything to lose!

Bloody hell i was expecting the cry freedom bit at the end of this dribble yawn yawn yawn
378

An Beal Bacht,

21/03/2008 18:04:11
When Scotland is independent Ah'm gonnae smuggle Milton Mowbray pork pies and Cornish pasties intae the country. Ah'll make a fortune dealin death by diet tae aw they pie addicts so Ah will.
379

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/03/2008 18:06:16
434? Don't follow. A Scottish government would lower duty on whisky. How other countries decide to tax whisky or imports is up to them, within EU rules. It is however hard for the UK to argue to countries which tax Scottish whisky highly not to do so when the UK is the worst offender for differentially high duties on whisky - higher than on alcoholic drinks from outwith the UK. Seems the UK doesn't go out of its way to back Scottish industries, and actually taxes imported alcohol less. How odd. A union dividend no doubt?
380

Electric Hermit,

21/03/2008 18:06:48
#429 Ayrshire Scot™

Cairns was talking about defence-related contracts, not just civil service jobs. Other than petty retaliation for seceding from the union, he offers no reason for excluding Scotland from such contracts. In the real world, there is no reason Scotland could not compete for such contracts on the same basis as other EU countries. And if a future British Labour Party UK administration denies contracts on the basis of the kind of prejudice evinced by Cairns, then they will surely be held accountable.