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'Scots defence industry will be decimated'



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Published Date: 21 March 2008
THE Scotland Office minister, David Cairns, warned last night that independence would "decimate" the country's defence industry. He told The Scotsman that the Westminster government would not be prepared to award lucrative contracts for military hardware to a "foreign country" if Scotland left the United Kingdom.
He also predicted a massive drop in the number of armed forces jobs in Scotland, because of the SNP's ambition to have only a "third-rate" peace-keeping force.

However, the SNP branded his comments as "scaremongering nonsense". It said companies based in an independent Scotland would continue to win work on their own merits.

Mr Cairns's warning came after he met defence industry leaders in Edinburgh and heard their concerns about the possible impact of independence.

He had told a meeting of the Society of British Aerospace Companies (SBAC) Scotland that 40,000 defence jobs north of the Border depended on the Westminster government and that the Ministry of Defence spent £950 million a year in Scotland.

He pointed to the amount of work heading Scotland's way from the £3.9 billion contracts to build two aircraft carriers. Five destroyers are also being built, while four other Royal Navy vessels are being refurbished.

Though the aircraft carriers – which are due to enter service in 2014 and 2016 – will not be wholly built in Scotland, a sizeable proportion of the work will go to workers on the Clyde and Rosyth.

Mr Cairns told The Scotsman he had no doubt independence would "decimate" Scotland's defence industry.

He said: "I stand by that word. I'm happy to say that to you, in terms of (the SNP's] complete unwillingness to say what they would do to replicate the spending we have already made.

"An independent Scotland will not require two aircraft carriers. Immediately, we are talking about a massive reduction in work. The rest of Britain is not going to have its aircraft carriers and Type 45 destroyers constructed in what would be a foreign country, which would be Scotland.

"Quite frankly, they (the SNP] have got to face up to the fact that the defence industry is an enormously important contributor to Scotland's economy."

Mr Cairns said there were 12,640 armed forces personnel in Scotland and 5,860 civilian staff. The presence of Ministry of Defence bases supported a further 12,500 jobs.

In addition, he claimed a further 9,000 jobs in the defence sector in Scotland were supported by MoD contracts awarded in a typical year.

His comments echo concerns already expressed by trade unions during an ongoing inquiry by the Scottish affairs committee at Westminster.

Yesterday's meeting involved about 15 senior industry figures from companies such as Rolls-Royce, BAE Systems, Thales and Goodridge.

Ian Watson, the SBAC director, said his organisation had concerns about the effects of independence.

He said of the meeting: "We have a council of all the captains of industry in our sector. It was a constructive, positive dialogue.

The industry has concerns at the defence sector and they were given to him (Mr Cairns]. He said he would take the message back. There are concerns from the defence sector in Scotland about the impact of any move towards independence."

Angus Robertson, MP, the SNP's Westminster leader, accused the minister of an "extraordinary ill-judged and ill-informed attack".

He went on: "It is just scaremongering nonsense.

"The only jobs under threat from Scotland becoming independent are those of David Cairns and his fellow Scottish Labour MPs. The reality under Labour and London government is that Scotland has lost 4,500 defence jobs in Scotland – David Cairns should be apologising for that.

"And Scotland gets far less of the UK defence procurement budget than our fair share.

"Scotland has some of the best yards and the best workforce in the world, and will get defence contracts on the basis of merit and achievement. An independent Scotland will support a vibrant defence sector, based on conventional forces – just like other small and successful European nations."

According to the SNP's "National Conversation" document, which maps out the party's long-term hopes, "an independent Scotland would have to consider the role and scale of its armed forces" and may choose to prioritise peacekeeping and disaster-relief missions.


The full article contains 712 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 21 March 2008 9:47 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

DER FUHRER,

21/03/2008 00:09:11
#2 Scaremongering........

HA HA HA HA

Looks like you are guilty of more inane nationalist hyperbole
2

Toots - Sheila,

Canada 21/03/2008 00:12:14
Surely an Indpendent Scotland would have far more to gain from "rebuilding the nations" that the Americans / English destroy!
We were once renowned for our engineering projects (roads , bridges, dams) that helped to develop struggling nations around the globe. And to think that this time round we could do all of this with the hindsight of less impact to the natural environment and the use of new (greener) technology.
3

J J MAROONER,

21/03/2008 00:13:15
2#

So what happens then?

4

DER FUHRER,

21/03/2008 00:16:33
#5 are you on medication?

What issues would we be dealing with??

Read the article.

Under the SNP we would have no defence jobs and no army.

5

I eat cookies wrapped in scotch tape,

21/03/2008 00:16:42
JHS, AM2!

Had to use the "Find in this Page" function to locate the word.

The decline of our defence industry started when BAE Systems took over Ferranti.

I note that the EE Lightning no longer adorns the entry roundabout to South Gyle from Sighthill.

But I noted that 2 years ago. Like you, I am a master of disinformation.
6

J J MAROONER,

21/03/2008 00:22:13
10#

Not really.
7

DaveK,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 00:23:55
Bye Bye jobs and expertise we had a proud an long history but a fat controller ruined it all.
8

Sanny,

glasgow 21/03/2008 00:24:55
1 AM2
I should think “scaremongering” is the correct description!
Not only do some of our defence contracts go the other European [Foreign] countries, but a major part of our defence spend is on the American Trident which we don’t want or need and it is not under our control!

Further, at present we do not receive a pro rata share of the defence monies but we do contribute. Simple logic should tell you that if we don’t spend our contribution on killing machines then it will be available to spend on more worthwhile projects, like alleviating poverty.

An Independent Scotland will be better off if it turns its swords into ploughshares, metaphorical speaking.
9

DER FUHRER,

21/03/2008 00:32:00
ALEX SALMOND the first minister who wrote to 122 countries highlighting the nation’s opposition to the deployment of Trident nuclear warheads on the Clyde, and his determination to try and block the UK government’s decision to replace Trident.

Rubert mugabe and President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran were just 2 of the people who received letters.

And we are going to trust him with a defence policy??

YEAH RIGHT!




10

DER FUHRER,

21/03/2008 00:33:15
Jackie Priest is in denial.

Poor Jackie. You must really be hurting.

I feel your pain.
11

Fifi la Bonbon,

21/03/2008 00:34:20
I think the Scottish Nationalist Party has to take this one on the chin.

If they were ever successful in separating Scotland from the UK, we would only be left with a ceremonial army, no air force and a fisheries protection fleet to fend off the Spanish. Which is fair enough given the Nationalists' pacifist approach.

The UK would still want to keep its place in the world which means keeping a formidable army and navy. The reason why the naval contracts are procured in the UK as opposed to foreign shipyards is a desire to keep the substantial capital investment in the UK economy. If Scotland is not in the UK then there would be no sentimentality in the MoD or Westminster about the Clyde. The money would go south where there is already surplus capacity, and votes. The last of the Scottish shipbuilding industry would die.

UK military procurement spending is a dividend of the Union. Denying this is just dishonest. Far better to accept that losing this, and the jobs and skills that go with it, would be a concomitant of separation. The Scottish Nationalist Party's challenge is to sell this honestly to the Scottish people, not to deny it as Mr Angus Robertson MP has been doing.
12

Fifi la Bonbon,

21/03/2008 00:39:31
Mr Cairns is wrong to use the word "decimated". That word strictly means that ten per cent would be lost. The impact would be much greater than that. Ministers of the Crown really ought to be more precise with their use of language.
13

DER FUHRER,

21/03/2008 00:40:26
#20 You make some great points.

It is the dishonesty of the SNP that irks me.

No matter what comes out in the wash, The SNP will always deny it.

Their 'local income tax' plan was dependant on SNP ministers securing access to £400m of council tax benefit, which the UK government always said would no longer be paid under the SNP's new scheme.

The SNP always knew this was going to happen but would never admit it (and still won't).
14

democrate,

21/03/2008 00:45:28
see you at 20, Fifi - you need to get a wee grip on yourself, for the following reasons:-
(a) The Scottish people will, come independence, decide the nature and extent of the military presence they wish their nation to have around the world;
(b) The Scots are not, by nature, aggressive- Scots are more naturally inclined to be peacemakers, neither aggressors nor appeasors;
(c)Scots soldiers are within the UK far more vulnerable than their military colleagues; Scots military are open to the suggestion that they are becoming proportionately, cannon-fodder;check the stats. Lions and Donkeys etc.
15

J J MAROONER,

21/03/2008 00:49:08
26#

"NOT BY NATURE AGGRESSIVE" - remember the "women from hell".
16

DER FUHRER,

21/03/2008 00:50:04
#24 yes Jackie you are hurting.

You may have your fat hero in power in the toy Parliament in a minority goverment.

But you do realise (I hope) that Scotland is run by Westminster.

All the important decisions are taken there.

Holyrood is good for passing bills on snares, pardoning witches and trying to transport some chessmen back from a museum.

But thats it I am afraid.
17

DER FUHRER,

21/03/2008 00:52:57
And remember Jackie.....

"They may take away our lives, but they'll never take our freeeedoooomm".

I bet that makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand on end.
18

democrate,

central Scotland 21/03/2008 00:54:00
28~ I do not follow your point; please do tell.
19

subrosa,

21/03/2008 00:54:55
# 20 The UK would still want to keep its place in the world which means keeping a formidable army and navy.

Formidable? Not any more, our forces are leaving in droves. Didn't you read about the fact that army bosses want to recruit Poles to the British Army because they can't get enough British?

As for Westminster. Last month they sold off Almondbank, the best engineers in Europe. The price was a pittance. Shameful.

We musn't give in to this man's ravings - he's desperate to keep his job and all the perks but he sees the writing on the wall.
20

subrosa,

21/03/2008 00:56:40
# 28 JJ

No I don't remember 'the women from hell'. Met a few of the men though.
21

The Strategist,

21/03/2008 00:56:49
Hmmmm.. Why are the RAF's latest air to air tankers based on a Boeing aircraft? Why is the Royal Navy buying the Lockheed JSF for their new aircraft carriers? Why is one of the main partners in the carrier programme a French company? Why is the radar for the Tornado being built by an Italian company in Edinburgh? Why are all our helicopters now built by an Italian owned company?

The Govt has gone out of its way to not stand in the way of foreign companies buying UK defence companies and has shown it will buy from anywhere in the world. In fact it has even sanctioned the idea of BAe transferring it's HQ to the USA and becoming a US company if it decides to do that.

Against this background for Cairns to say that an independent Scotland would get no more defence work is patently petty minded nonsense.

22

J J MAROONER,

21/03/2008 00:58:16
31#
Take it you have no military background or you would know what I mean.

32#
Good morning subrosa how are you.
23

,

21/03/2008 00:59:24
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
24

Senga Jean,

Scotland 21/03/2008 01:06:09
Unionists are not traitors to Scotland? What do you call someone who celebrates outsiders running your country and pretends that you would be worse off using the abilities of your people and exceptionally rich national resources for the betterment of your country?
25

J J MAROONER,

KIRKCALDY 21/03/2008 01:07:38
subrosa#

You are right about them leaving in droves, when I joined the Army we had 60 Infantry Battalions and an overall strengh of nearer 200,000, when I left 25 years later we were fast approaching 100,000 and with more commitments.

# The women from hell was a German description of kilted Scottish Soldiers in WW1.
26

,

21/03/2008 01:09:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
27

McGubbligan,

Oz 21/03/2008 01:09:46
It is no accident that warmonger ex-priest Cairns describes Scotland as "foreign".
It just goes to show the "Scottish" Labour mindset with regards to Scotland.
28

karinxx,

21/03/2008 01:12:44
do you know what i cant be bothered even replying to the complete and utter nonsense of this so called paper or its supplicant unionistas. Im just not going to read it anymore i advise all other nationalists to do the same. if you have to do anything just put in the comment box. I dont read this paper its rubbish read the herald.
29

Yoohoo,

21/03/2008 01:17:45
Sounds more like a threat to me. If the Scots dare to support independence, then Scottish labour mps and ministers will punish the Scottish people and deprive them of their right to develop their economy and bid for contracts in the same way that all other 'foreign' entities do.

30

Senga Jean,

Scotland 21/03/2008 01:17:57
Decimated? So a 10% downturn. Not much then.
31

subrosa,

21/03/2008 01:23:01
# 39 JJ Good morning to you.

Thanks for the explanation about 'the women from hell'. Obviously I'm not quite old enough to recall the saying :)

Yes they're leaving in droves because many feel they can't do their jobs as efficiently as they would wish, owing to the fact they don't believe in what they are doing.

Of course, the disintegration of the Scottish regiments also has something to do with it. That took away pride and honour and replaced them with insult and inferiority.
32

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 21/03/2008 01:24:33
DER FUHRER#...IF WESTMINSTER DECIDED TO BRING IN L.I.T. WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO ALL THE COUNCIL TAX BENIFIT MONEY?
33

Jockdogma,

UK 21/03/2008 01:29:25
You can't have it both ways. The SNP must decide if it wants to be anti-war democracy that it suggests, or a nation which does produce weapons via BAE and naturally profits from it. I think the Labour comments are nonsense but at some point the SNP has to swallow the bitter pill or address the economic implications of withdrawing from the arms business. Leadership at the end of the day is never easy and Salmond needs to prove his worth by grasping the nettle and dealing with it
34

J J MAROONER,

21/03/2008 01:30:57
47#

Not old enough!!! - so your not 110 like me?

Anyway I will just get the Nurse to wheel me to my billet in this this old Soldiers home, catch you later subrosa.
35

subrosa,

21/03/2008 01:42:30
# 50 JJ - Of course I'm not 110. I started going backwards at 55. They say the elderly revert to childhood so I intend to do so. Sleep well don't forget the cocoa.

# 51 Jock

Really? He's wasting his time with me then Jock - I've a drawer full of brushes of various sorts.
36

Edward,

21/03/2008 01:42:39
There must be a Labour party conference about to happen.
'Cairns told The Scotsman that the Westminster government would not be prepared to award lucrative contracts for military hardware to a "foreign country" if Scotland left the United Kingdom'
Typical spiv Cairns comment. First of all its not about Scotland 'leaving' the United Kingdom. If Scotland became independent, then there would be NO United Kingdom. Why this thick pratt cant get it into his thick scull, defies all logic!
Second point is that Scotland pay a large chunk of its revenue intu the UK defence. So instead of paying it into the London treasury, an independent Scotland would keep the billions spent and spend it on its own Defence force. It would have its own contracts.
Cairns is only concerned about one thing and thats Cairns own empoyment!

37

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 21/03/2008 01:43:37
"An independent Scotland will not require two aircraft carriers. Immediately, we are talking about a massive reduction in work."

How many jobs could the billions of pounds saved on two aircraft carriers for the glorification and ego of Gordon Brown be used to create?

Who does Scotland need defending from anyway? Only one country has invaded her in the last 500 years, and that was England.
38

Edward,

21/03/2008 01:49:41
'Mr Cairns said there were 12,640 armed forces personnel in Scotland and 5,860 civilian staff. The presence of Ministry of Defence bases supported a further 12,500 jobs'
Guess what Cairns, after Independence, they would still be there! Scotland would be entitled to a sizable slice of the Navy, Air Force and Army equipment, after all we paid for it!
It would be interesting what a rump England would do with 2 very large aircraft carriers.
Just to repeat and correct Cairns. Independent Scotland = No United Kingdom
The disaloution of the UK, would make an Independent Kingdom of Scotland and an Independent Kingdom of England and Northern Ireland
39

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 21/03/2008 01:56:37
Not an unreasonable point from Jockdogma @ # 49.

I think some perspective is needed though JD!

To suggest the SNP is anti-war because it opposses ,like most other countries governments do, the false premise upon which we went to war in Iraq is incorrect.

If Scotland became Independent tomorrow it would take several years for Scottish defence contractors to work through current contracts and obligations. There would be no overnight change.

Scots make up a hefty part of the British military. 1 in 4 facing the 'Taliban' in Afghanistan are Scots (a wonderful union dividend). It would take a decade for the Scottish military to seperate from the British. There will be no overnight change.

Cairn's comments - designed to scare the masses with half-truths and deception should be seen through a political paradigm, they are purely anti SNP propoganda. The notion that Scotland would be left a defenceless and jobless runt is ridiculous.

SNP Defence Policy (through design or otherwise) would be a gradualist and considered change from the Status Quo.

Cairns comments will hopefully be seen in the same light as other Unionist scare stories. Living In Australia I haven't received a 5000 tax bill for voting SNP, how are the rest of you coping with it?
40

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 21/03/2008 02:01:13
Scotland has the talent to compete in any field that it chooses to. You don't have to be large to do well in the armaments field. Two of the world leaders are Israel and South Africa, neither of which are giant economies.

It is more likely that the shipyards would attract more business seperate from the UK rules and regulations than it gets from the UK. The success of the yards would depend on the quality of the work and the talent of the bidders and not on whose back you scratched at Westminster or the MOD.

No need to cringe when you can shine. Cairns can only cringe as he has bowed too long at Westminster to ever walk again with a straight back.
41

Jock Politicaljunkie,

Glasgow 21/03/2008 02:04:59
I don't think our Defence Industry will be decimated any more than it already has by 18 years of Blue Tory and 11 years of Red Tory rule.

And, as for suggesting that an Independent Scotland will not have an Army, Navy and Airforce, what utter rot.

When Scotland negotiates her Independence with London part of the negotiations will be the various carve ups of UK assets in which we have a share. We will have an entitlement to a percentage of those assets in relation to our population. Those assets will include units of and hardware of the military.

I also know that a least one study has already looked into this potential event. No doubt a reorganisation of those assets designated to Scotland may be required but to claim that such a military entity would be third rate is frankly insulting from David McChattering Cairns.

The Norwegians have a smaller population than Scotland but are still valuable members of NATO who spent the entire Cold War on the Front Line. (And if George Dubya keeps on in turn ignoring and insulting the Russians, that one could get a bit tense again!) The Norwegians have a Defence Industry that includes both design and build capability. The Penguin Missile is one of theirs, sold to 7 other nations including the Americans! Clever wee thing it is too - 55km range and the only Infra Red Seeker, ie. chaff won't fool it.

So keep on Chattering David, I love it, and the people know that when you lie your lips move.
42

Keren, It's time,

21/03/2008 02:08:39
Isn't it the 3rd or 4th time we have read the same 'story' in The 'Scotsman (sic) this year?

How long will it be b4 we read it again and what does it achieve?

What next? 'You will never see your relatives in England again' or 'you'll be banned from the Eurovision Song Contest?'

Pathetic stuff is that all they really have left??
43

Jock Politicaljunkie,

Glasgow 21/03/2008 02:15:15
OH YES PLEASE, ban us from Eurovision!!!
44

Vincent-W,

21/03/2008 02:19:17
#55 - who in their right mind would want to invade Scotland in a manner that would require a defence force?

The only people who would want to invade Scotland would do it economically.
45

Rozz Fyffe,

Scotland 21/03/2008 03:03:10
well thart means 90 % survive
46

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

21/03/2008 03:16:10
Do EU competition laws not allow for fair competition in tendering. They must be really desperate to keep us now our oil is being priced over $100 until 2016.

47

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 04:01:39
So Cairns is stating that the remnants of a broken UK, will not need a decent port to locate their share of the super dooper aircraft carriers, because right now they do not have any where in England or Wales that is big enough to hold them. Cairns and the Britnat Numpties talk sheite.

One more point about UK Defence Contracts. The UK will not have the benefit of Scottish Oil, Fishing and our economy of 80 Billion quid a year. They also face the prospect of losing 9% of their defence forces equipment that Scottish Taxes paid for. As a matter of Fact Scotland will have a very nice defence force, with the greatest fighting men and women this planet has produced.Of course Trident will have to go, but I am sure there are many countries who would be interested in a Nuclear Deterrent with low mileage. In other words Cairns and all you other Numpties who love Westminster. Shut it because we will be the wealthy neighbours of a Broken UK that was stuffed for many years already. It is finished, gone, kaput, so get your bags packed for southern England where your hearts are.
48

,

21/03/2008 04:35:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
49

Castaway,

21/03/2008 04:38:11
It was nice to read that David Cairns worries that independence would "decimate" the country's defence industry but think his hidden message is to do with the replacement of the Trident missile system.
50

MJG,

New York 21/03/2008 05:42:16
Just because David Cairns can't use "decimate" correctly does not mean the sub who wrote your headline should follow suit.
Tsk, tsk, Scotsman.
51

Pilrig.,

Livingston 21/03/2008 06:11:56
29 - in other words, us ignorant, indigenous Jocks are incapable of making the big decisions.
52

Geoff,

sa 21/03/2008 06:18:38
20 Fifi la Bonbon-good comment.
56 Edward-what about Wales!?



53

Richardinho,

21/03/2008 06:20:00
Seriously, what is David Cairns' job?
54

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 21/03/2008 06:22:30
Dougie Douglas (#36) has this one nailed.
55

Geoff,

sa 21/03/2008 06:24:30
55 Rev S.Campbell-"only one country has invaded Scotland in the last 500 years and that was England."
Strictly speaking,not true-what about the Germans during WW2-the Battle of er,BRITAIN?
56

Artistwally,

Perth 21/03/2008 06:33:20
The organisation No. 20 tried to name is the Scottish NATIONAL Party.
The MOD (Merchants of Death) has already sold off DARA at Perth and 350 jobs to a foreign power - Canada's Vector!
Time to turn off the oil, gas, water and electricity that flows over the border and see how an independant Enland survives!
57

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 06:37:40
After the disasters of the 20th Century, the constitution of the unified Federal Republic of Germany restricts its military spending on defence.

However, Germany still spends a considerable part of its GDP on subsidising the now reduced NATO forces in Germany, multi-national European Union defence equipment, and on its own miltary requirements.

Since the mid-1950s its German-speaking neighbour Austria, along with Denmark, France and Sweden have all benefited greatly from German defence contracts to the tune of billions of marks/euros for raw materials, jet engines, I.T. and optical parts.

Two of Germany's biggest providers of military equipment are still the US AND the UK!
58

Geoff,

sa 21/03/2008 06:39:55
As a Unionist I think there are two issues here.Firstly whether or not a break up of the United kingdom would be detrimental to Scotlands Defence Industry- as a Unionist I would not introduce this argument into the debate. No matter what most of you say,Independence or not is overwhelmingly a decision of the heart. Its not,one way or tother going to convert Nats to Brits. It might dissuade some fence sitters from opting for Independence, but if economic factors are your thing then there are Nat counter arguments around oil. The second issue is a post Independence Scotland and her future Defence policies. Its seems that the SNP are a broadly pacifist organisation-who's going to attack "little old Scotland"? This is dangerous and naive thinking. If Europe splits into a loose grouping of pacifist nations then who will deal with the big bad Wolves? The world is not the place you want it to be-led by thinking caring people-you will always have to factor in the Hitlers and Stalins and Husseins. In Britain,for this and other reasons,we are much better united.
59

Richardinho,

21/03/2008 06:49:54
#76 'No matter what most of you say,Independence or not is overwhelmingly a decision of the heart.'

'The world is not the place you want it to be-led by thinking caring people-you will always have to factor in the Hitlers and Stalins and Husseins. In Britain,for this and other reasons,we are much better united.'

So in other words, it's irrational fear which makes you a unionist.
60

Geoff,

sa 21/03/2008 06:57:54
77 Richardinho-no,its not irrational fear that makes me a Unionist.
61

Richardinho,

21/03/2008 06:59:04
#78
Yes it is. That's according to your words. We should all be unionists in case Hitler attacks us again. that's an irrational fear.
62

madrab,

edinburgh 21/03/2008 07:05:49
Given the poor job that David Cairns does supplying our soldiers overseas I would have thought he would like to keep quiet over this.

Maybe all Scottish soldiers should be brought home now and we can let English soldiers die through poor supply in the illegal war in Iraq?

When we do become independent surely the Scottish Government will be spending money on our armed forces.
63

Suomi,

Salo;Finland 21/03/2008 07:07:30
A more appropriare word for Cairns behaviour is bullying.Threats are now replacing dialogue.A bit primative really in the modern Europe where smaller countries than Scotland are emerging as full members of the European Union and growing their economies.It is interesting to see countries such as Slovenia taking the presidency of the EU.

Solutions that were appropriate for security and the economy in 1707 have no currency in 2008.The world has changed and Scotland needs to join it.Scotish companies wiil be succesful if they are skilled and competative.Mr Cairns also needs to learn that Europe is bigger than the countries within the British Isles.I have a Finnish wife and we have 3 daughters who live in 3 countries(Scotland,Holland and Finland).As a family,although we value independance for our respective countries,we are very international.Most Europeans would be appalled by the narrow inward looking and aggressive behaviour od Mr Cairns.
64

madrab,

edinburgh 21/03/2008 07:13:19
Geoff, there is only one country at the moment willing to illegally invade others territory, and it's not Germany.

Have they found any WMD in Iraq yet?

When will you be invading Iran?
65

Richardinho,

21/03/2008 07:13:30
Geof the unionist seems to think that England would depend on Scotland in any future wars. Yet David Cairns says that England would cut it's link with the Scottish defence sector.

So which is it?
66

scottish person,

paisley 21/03/2008 07:19:58
David who!
67

madrab,

edinburgh 21/03/2008 07:23:44
Coming to think of it, didn't a recent official revue decide that the Scotland Office served no real purpose?

Why are we still paying this man's wages ( and probably his mortgage and family's wages too given the record of other ministers )?
68

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 21/03/2008 07:24:24
Ha ha ha ha, this is truly the most pathetic one from Cairns yet.

(A) If we're independent he'll be out of a job.

(B) What's to stop the defence sector in an independent Scotland operating on a global scale?

(C) Will the remainder of the one time UK, invest in new yards down south or simple look elsewhere for the cheapest deal, Poland, South Korea, Malta!

(D)What next, Cairns attacks the Scottish Whisky, Shortbread adn Porridge industry saying England will buy from elsewhere?

You get the feeling that Cairns, the Baron, Browne, Brown and Darling are trapped in Dante's Inferno in a perpetual circle jerk.
69

Geoff,

sa 21/03/2008 07:24:24
79 richardinho-no it isnt.
70

Stephen fae Scotland,

San Francisco (& Edinburgh) 21/03/2008 07:26:33
Hey #77 you are way off base. Fear does not make me unionist.

I am proud of my countries - Scotland and Great Britain. I am proud of an association with our English, Welsh and Ulster neighbours that allowed us together to change the course of world history and leave an enduring legacy of language, culture, values and laws.

The Gnat demagogues want to make Union intolerable for all concerned by being such an irritating shower - beyond that, expecting the rest of Great Britain to continue to push work north of such a hostile border is beyond naive. Its bordering on criminal misrepresentation to the Scottish people.

Gnats that want to restore the seventeenth century, independence and poverty, are just the people to do it!


71

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 21/03/2008 07:27:26
Decimated? Reduced by 10%: doesn't sound that bad.
72

Citylocal Fife,

Citylocal Fife News 21/03/2008 07:28:27
Some common sense please.

Our taxes pay for these carriers etc, so if we were independent we would not pay £billions in taxes for warships and other 'items' we neither need nor want. Therefore we would save that cash. Moving on, we then sell our 'engineering services' to other other countries and make a profit.

The net profit in the construction of military hardware comes from selling it to other people, who keep conveniently 'breaking' it, or have someone break it for them and therefore need to buy more.


Yours etc

Angus Whitton
73

Richardinho,

21/03/2008 07:34:56
#88

'Gnats that want to restore the seventeenth century, independence and poverty, are just the people to do it!'

There you go again-another irrational fear, mixed in with a bit of conventional Scottish cringe and self-hatred.
74

Stephen fae Scotland,

San Francisco (& Edinburgh) 21/03/2008 07:39:45
#90 - common sense? lets try some maths -

If Scotland currently benefits from jobs and contracts in a sector that serves the whole UK (as it does) - and if if benefits out of scale to the population (taxpaying population) of the UK as a whole (as it does) - then you do the math as to what happens if the UK jobs and contracts go away.

Some hope that any gnat will/can 'do the math'. Facts are not their forte - as is amply proven by those in this string... Its all about emotions - including hatred.
75

Stephen fae Scotland,

San Francisco (& Edinburgh) 21/03/2008 07:45:02
#91 "Self-hatred" not a bit of it - its the half wit Gnats that I hate. The Scottish Taliban that try to make anyone else feel less Scottish because they don't accept Gnat orthodoxy.

"cringe" - again - silly sophistry. Scotland WAS an impoverished country in the seventeenth century and no amount of revisionist history changes that fact.

Nothing irrational about my fear of you head-cases. You are bent on destruction, distortion and delusion. But I calm my fears because like all fevers - you will pass...
76

Stephen fae Scotland,

San Francisco (& Edinburgh) 21/03/2008 07:52:30
Hey #93 - you talking about me? Shame on me for traveling eh? Weel whit aboot yer big bleather Sean Conolly - noo talk aboot a 'non dom'!

I am not only UK/Scottish domiciled - but I pay taxes in Scotland! Mor than I can say for baldy-bain who lives in Spain!

Anyway, what the hang does that have to do with anything? Yet another basis for the McTaliban to claim to be the only Scots - the real Scots - the common Scots - the... well we all get the picture....

I don't lose one iota of my Scottishness because I hold you lot in contempt - quite the contrary Mr. McTaliban.
77

Ian C,

People's Democratic Republic of Fife 21/03/2008 07:52:35
UK will not give defence business to foreign country. Why then does the UK currently do exactly that from the US, Canada, France, Belguim, Israel and a host of others.

We had similar "male cow manure" in 1992 when the Tories (then in power) said "If the SNP win the election they will close Rosyth Naval Base". The SNP did not win, the Torie did and they then closed Rosyth Naval Base and transferred the Trident programme to Devonport (a disaster) to buy English votes.

Scotland on it's own could replace all the jobs lost in defence (they are ALL employed by English companies anyway) with their own defence jobs and others.

They is the usual crap we hear from Labour and the Tories. We have to beware more of the Scots with Ebglish shoes than the English (similar to 300 odd years old). Nothing changes.
78

Bishi731,

Scotland 21/03/2008 07:53:04
The minister displays a frightening lack of knowledge about defence procurement when he states that "The rest of Britain is not going to have its aircraft carriers and Type 45 destroyers constructed in what would be a foreign country.." The likelihood is that Scotland would not become independent much before 2011, assuming the SNP gets an independence mandate towards the end of the current parliament. The aircraft carriers will start construction next year and by 2011 the first will be well on the way to final assembly. Does he seriously think that this work could then be transferred to another UK yard? It has taken the MOD years to agree the construction arrangements for these ships and anyone who thinks that this can be changed easily and quickly is seriously deluded or more likely making mischief with the facts.
79

David Macintosh,

weert 21/03/2008 07:55:08
I have never read so much utter rubbish in my life. The truth of the matter is that Scotland is an intricate part of NATO's Air Defence Strategy and as such would be a fully fledged member of NATO. The Air Bases in Scotland would not close overnight if at all. The most likely outcome would be that they became NATO bases as opposed to British. That is something that should be welcomed as the workforce would immediately be payed NATO wages as opposed to the pittance they are now paid by the British government. The other plus point would be that an Independent Scotland would be receiving rent for the fore said Air Bases which we dont receive at the moment. As for the defence industry, as an independent member of NATO, we would be in line for our fair share of NATO defence contracts. If you are producing the equipment that NATO requires, and of a quality that they require contracts will come. In fact, we might find that we receive more work as a result of being free from Westminster's intransigent views on defence. The European Union would also be more likely to place defence orders with an independent Scotland who were FULL MEMBERS of the said Union as opposed to a Britain that cant make up its mind whether its in or out. It shames me to hear fellow Scots talk our country down. Its time we recognise these people for what they are "QUISLINGS" shame on them.
80

Richardinho,

21/03/2008 07:58:00
#94

I don't doubt that you nurture this little fantasy that Scots were primitive savages just waiting for the English to civilise them.
It's typical stuff from you self-haters.

Of course it's completely irrelevant what Scotland was like in the 17th century and suggesting that we're going to go back to then is simply an irrational scare tactic which does you no credit whatsoever.

The main reason for the joining the union on Scotland's part was access to Englands market. The fact that for the first few years this access was denied and this promise broken is by the by.
The reality is within the European Union and across the world with various international agreements, we have free trade, hence the purpose of the union in the first place is irrelevant.

Just as this suggestion by des Browne's is. If England wants to turn it's back on a mutually beneficial relationship with Scotland then so be it. I doubt they will, that would be self defeating on their part.
81

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 21/03/2008 08:01:54
#94 Troll, we don't hate you, you only hate yourself.

The only person that makes you "feel less Scottish" is yourself.
82

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 08:01:55
Scotland would lose a lot but also not have to spend a lot, swings and roundabouts again.
We would not have to pay for son of Trident and illegal wars, personally we'd rather go with independence and take our chances on defence jobs. Scotland's share of defence research and forces is usually assumed to be well below what it should be. After all we have about 120 admirals in the Navy, are a dozen of them stationed along with their backup staff in Scotland ?
83

Copper,

Falkirk 21/03/2008 08:02:54
When we stop the Labour Party Joke O'Donnells selling our ferry building contracts to the Poles and others we can keep our industry employed
84

,

21/03/2008 08:03:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
85

,

21/03/2008 08:03:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
86

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 21/03/2008 08:05:24
#104

Dribbling.
87

Richardinho,

21/03/2008 08:06:00
Anyone able to make any sense of #104?

Did I mention before that I thought he was irrational?

88

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 21/03/2008 08:13:35
But, what if he is right? Lets reflect on it.

The requirements of the Scottish Army, Navy and Air forces in an "independent" Scotland are insufficient to retain the type of capabilities that the UK requires at present and I don't believe an indepedendant England would be inclined to sustain and independent Scotlands armaments industry in preference to their own. Common sense must prevail and the shallow tide of nationalism must be revealed for the weaknesses in their arguments.

Stop Nationalist Propaganda now before its too late.
89

eric,

Lothian 21/03/2008 08:13:53
Mrs Thatcher Gave the 2 steel Plants a few years to pove why they should not be closed down.Ravenscraig outstripped the Plant down south.She still chose ravenscraig to close!
90

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 21/03/2008 08:14:02
#106 Don't know where he gets this notion that Independence supporters would hate Peter Sellars. I thought Sellars was brilliant in 'Being There' one of my top fifty films.
91

thinking,

Scotland 21/03/2008 08:14:41
Why would any nation give a foreign country its defence contracts?
#4
'We were once renowned for our engineering projects (roads , bridges, dams) that helped to develop struggling nations around the globe'
Once being the operative word. Where are those skills now?
92

Stephen fae Scotland,

San Francisco (& Edinburgh) 21/03/2008 08:14:50
#106 - and your opinion is one that is held in such high regard by who?

Funny how anyone that pokes at the Gnats with even a wee stick gets them all buzzing. Out comes the abuse and personal remarks "scum" "quizling" "self-hater", bleather bleather bleather.. all no doubt to the the strains of 'cap in hand', 'flower of Scotland' etc.. swimming around inside various feverish heads in overly tartan clad attic bedrooms at mammy's hoos! And all that is supposed to pass for contemporary Gnat political discourse! Ha!

Get over yer sels.
93

scottish person,

paisley 21/03/2008 08:14:58
#103 well said. Stephen fae scotland, away tae yer bed. You are posting nonsense!
94

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 21/03/2008 08:16:41
Of course here we have yet another New london Labour Minister telling us yet another doom and gloom story on Independence without presenting a shred of evidence to support his wishful thinking. For one think the UK will no longer exist so neither will UK defence contracts. The companies will have to deal with both Scotland and England on an individual business basis.
Just another piece of sh*t nonsense from a corrupt sleazy dishonest party discredited even within its own ranks.