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Alexander 'wants poll in 12 months'

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Published Date: 06 May 2008
WENDY Alexander, the Scottish Labour leader, has revealed she wants a referendum on independence within the next 12 months, with the public being offered a simple "yes or no" vote on separation.
Following her U-turn at the weekend, Ms Alexander yesterday gave more details of how she sees a referendum proceeding.

Sources close to Ms Alexander have made it clear that while she is currently challenging Alex Salmond, the First Minister, to bring forward a bill now, Labour may do it themselves to get an early vote.

Ms Alexander said yesterday that she was "attracted by there being a straight choice for or against independence".

If this happens in 12 months, the Scottish Constitutional Commission on devolution, chaired by Sir Kenneth Calman and initiated by Ms Alexander, will not have reported.

However, Sir Kenneth yesterday insisted it would be "business as usual".

Last night, a spokesman for Ms Alexander said: "A tipping point has been reached. It is now clear the general election will not take place for some time and window of opportunity has opened.

"It is not in Scotland's interests to delay (a referendum for] another three years.

He added: "The SNP should not have four years of fraying the relationship (with the UK] in Scotland's name. Mr Salmond wants to delay because he knows the SNP cannot win at the moment. Meanwhile, the overall uncertainty is bad for Scotland."

It is unclear whether Labour would get the required support in Holyrood for their plans, with opposition coming from both the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats.

Nicola Sturgeon, the deputy First Minister, said: "We will stick to what we offered the people; demonstrating credibility in government, engaging with the people through our national conversation and bringing forward a referendum in 2010."

Scottish Labour MPs, who are to meet tonight to discuss the issue, were yesterday divided on Ms Alexander's plan.

John Robertson, the Labour MP for Glasgow North West, said the issue was "a battle we will win".

But Ian Davidson, MP for Glasgow South West, said he was "surprised" by the timing of Ms Alexander's announcement.

And one Labour MP asked if Ms Alexander "was off her head", adding: "What is she thinking?"

A source close to Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister said: "We have no plans to initiate a referendum. If the Labour Party in Scotland wants to take a position, that's a matter for them."

Key questions on the road to a vote on independence

When would a referendum take place?

Wendy Alexander and Labour appear to prefer a quick referendum in the hope a 'no' vote will take the wind out of the SNP's sails and neuter the issue in a general election expected in 2010.

Alex Salmond and the SNP have made it clear they want to bring an independence referendum bill forward in 2010. This, Mr Salmond claims, will give them time to prove themselves in government and build up the case for independence.

But it will also allow them to use the referendum, or non-referendum if it is blocked by the Unionist parties, as the basis for their Westminster election campaign in 2010 and Holyrood election campaign in 2011.

What form would it take?

Depending on the timing, the referendum would either be a yes or no question on independence or would be a multi-option question on independence, more powers for the Scottish Parliament or the status quo.

The multi-option version would happen if the Scottish Constitutional Commission on developing devolution, chaired by Sir Kenneth Calman, was able to report before the referendum took place.

Mr Salmond has suggested the multi-option version could be done on a single transferable vote basis, but this could allow independence in on a minority vote.

What questions would be asked?

Three options have been mooted:

Should Scotland be independent? Yes or no.

Or: Which of the following do you prefer, Independence, more powers for Scotland or the status quo?

Or Question 1: Do you want independence? Question 2: If devolution continues, do you want the Scottish Parliament to have more powers?

How would a referendum be set up?

Constitutional matters are reserved for Westminster and, in theory, need an Act of Parliament there. However, there is nothing to stop the Scottish Parliament voting through its own "consultative" referendum, which would then be politically difficult for Westminster to ignore.

Who would run the referendum?

At the moment, it would be Westminster because of the provisions of the Scotland Act.

However, votes may be transferred to Scotland because of the recommendations in the Gould Report following the debacle in last year's Scottish elections, which led to more than 140,000 ballot papers being classified as spoiled.

Also, if the Scottish Parliament had a "consultative" referendum, it could run it itself.

What sort of majority would be needed?

In the 1979 referendum, 40 per cent of the electorate as well as majority of those who voted had to support independence.

Famously, the independence vote was higher, but the 40 per cent threshold was not reached, partly because deceased voters still on the electoral roll were included. They were effectively voting against independence by not going to vote.

More recently, devolution referenda in Scotland and Wales merely needed a straight majority.

What are the chances of Scotland becoming independent?

At the moment, polls suggest that the SNP's popularity is high but support for independence is low. However, if the issue became mixed up with a popularity contest between Gordon Brown and Alex Salmond, on current standings, it could swing in the direction of independence.

If people vote against independence, would this be the end of the issue and the SNP?

Labour has made it clear that they are opposed to the idea of a "neverendum" as has happened in Quebec in Canada. There, constant failures for the region to vote for independence have led independence parties to keep bringing the question back.

It is likely the SNP would try to do this if it lost because it would lose its reason to exist. The party would be in a stronger position to do this if it polled around 40 per cent in favour of independence.

Page 1 of 1

 
1

Angus Ogg,

05/05/2008 21:56:40

Wendy Alexander has NO principles.

Her dizzyness in making her U-turn so fast has meant that any brain cells she has left are imploding almost as fast as any vestage of her credibility.

Pure, naked, shameless opportunism; but what can one expect of a self confessed law breaker?

I am absolutely disgusted at Witless Alexander, and personally ashamed I was ever a member of the Labour Party.

The reason I have patience and time for Alex Salmond is at least the guy has principles, even if I don't quite agree with Independence. For the time being I am going to continue voting SNP.

I am not sure how Witless Alexander expects ex Labour voters to be turned on by her dropping her principles faster than a lady in Blytheswood Square drops her undergarments, but this aint the way.

Forunately what Alexander wants, and what Alexander gets are two entireley different things.
2

karinxxx,

06/05/2008 00:01:33
oh i see the hootsman decides to do this for wendy but not the snp

im sure the readers will find that most interesting.
3

Alfred E. Neuman,

06/05/2008 00:01:58
Another day of nat-wits fantasing about support for independence that doesn't exist. Oh joy!

Why must Scotland with buffoons who want to waste time and money on this independence rubbish?
4

Richardinho,

06/05/2008 00:05:40
Wendy assumes that the electorate will vote 'no' to Scottish independence.

But she is leaving open the possibility that they will vote 'yes'. What is her strategy for that eventuality?
The only party with any plan for that is the SNP and their strategy is for a referendum in 2010 or thereabouts. In other words, what she is proposing is utterly irresponsible. She is putting Labour party gain above the interests of the country.
5

iain,

edinburgh 06/05/2008 00:10:39
This is a desperate tactic because if there is a referendum when the SNP want it the prospects of them winning is far far greater... In fact it shows that Wendy has some nerve and almost made me like her. But then I woke up.....
6

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 06/05/2008 00:13:21
40% rule, does the Scotsman really think there is a chance of that being included as part of a referendum package? why not let it include the other democratic beauty, that of making any unused vote count as a no vote.

I hope that the Lib-Dems and the Tory's who are complaining about this realise the powerful position that Wendy has actually placed them in, if they are really feeling left out of the loop (and they were), then they can return the gesture by pointing out that they will no longer cooperate with the commission as she has made it irrelevent, they can leave her to stew!
7

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 06/05/2008 00:19:23
Alfie

How will U Bend Wendy get this through Parliament in less than 12 months?

Will your party support her?
8

Alfred E. Neuman,

06/05/2008 00:22:59
8 Andrew

I don't have a political party, neither do you. You are just a demented prat that treats politics with the same deranged gusto that a football hooligan takes football.

As regards a bill getting rhough parliament, 12 months is about right.
9

Steve,

Bo'ness 06/05/2008 00:26:24
Wendy has shot herself in the foot. What a fool!

Labour wont get support for a referendum now.
And when Salmond holds the proposed referendum in 2010,like he was elected to do, is she seriously going to do another u-turn and oppose it?
10

R o g e r Irrelevant,

06/05/2008 00:28:08
I trust Sir Tom Exhaustpipe on this one
11

FS,

Stirling 06/05/2008 00:30:07
"What sort of majority would be needed?

In the 1979 referendum, 40 per cent of the electorate as well as majority of those who voted had to support independence.

Famously, the independence vote was higher, but the 40 per cent threshold was not reached, partly because deceased voters still on the electoral roll were included. They were effectively voting against independence by not going to vote."

- history lesson Scotsman, that was for devolution not independence. In 301 years Scots have gone without the chance to air their views on whether or not Scotland should be independent or not, in or out of the Union.
12

Alfred E. Neuman,

06/05/2008 00:31:38
12 F S

I need to correct you because you are a deranged fantasist. Scotland has had its chance at every election to vote for the SNP, they just chose not to - get over it!
13

Paula,

06/05/2008 00:33:19
Is there a photo of this woman in existance where she doesn't look like a Spitting Image puppet?

Wonder if Labourites long for the days of wee Joke McConnell, he may have been inconsequential (sp pedants?) but he was better than this horror. Still, anyone who can get away with fraud charges must have something going for her. Just can't see it myself. Do Labour plan on winning anything in the future - because if they do they better get rid of Wendy, fast.
14

R o g e r Irrelevant,

06/05/2008 00:33:59
I trust Sir Tom Exhaustpipe on this one

karin (???) triple x ???



t1t , quite frankly.

15

Richardinho,

06/05/2008 00:36:41
In the manifesto for the 2007 election which the SNP won, they clearly state that they intend to have a referendum in 2010. Wendy was asked about this on the news today, and she denied it-clearly yet again she hasn't done her research or was simply lying. She is the one who goes on about 'broken promises' all the time, so how can she complain when the SNP keep this one?

In reality it is for Labour to 'put up or shut up'. If they want to introduce legislation to the parliament for an earlier referendum then they should do so.
Assuming of course Gordon Brown lets her.
16

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 06/05/2008 00:37:08
9. Alfie

Touchy, touchy. Had a bad day? I've not even started yet.

The last time I read one of your posts you were extolling the virtues of the Conservative Party. She ain't gonna do it with 45 MSPs. That's why I asked.

Can I have a straight answer this time instead of disproportionate offensive jibes please.
17

Sanny,

06/05/2008 00:38:15
If Brown were to agree, or even fail to reject, Wendy's proposed early referendum, it would place him in an impossible position on the EU ‘Constitutional Treaty’. How can he refuse England (with 90% of the vote) a say on The EU Referendum whilst at the same time NOT opposing a Scottish Referendum. Wendy has modified Brown’s current difficult position into one that is impossible.

I don’t think it will be too long now before Wendy is given gardening leave to spent more time with the family! Both Wendy and Brown have lost the game to the master tactician Alex Salmond.
18

democracy,

Scottish Borders 06/05/2008 00:39:27
#3 Alfred E. Neuman, The stupid little Englishman should leave the postings on this subject to Scottish people, so just run along you silly little boy!!
19

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 06/05/2008 00:40:49
"The SNP should not have four years of fraying the relationship (with the UK] in Scotland's name."

Yet it has been fine for the Union to rape, kill, maim, steal, manipulate, obfuscate, be deceitful at all times with a plethora of propaganda, based on the myth-making of Anglo- history, justified by Anglo-universities compounding how right they are - for 300 years!

20

R o g e r Irrelevant,

06/05/2008 00:40:58
Angus Ogg.

What a guy.

Or possibly a gal.

Even both.

I've seen those videos!
21

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 06/05/2008 00:45:44
"she wants a referendum on independence within the next 12 months"

Awwwww diddums.

Does that mean that english Labour is now Scottish Labour vis-a -vie F uck the union?
22

,

06/05/2008 00:50:43
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23

FS,

Stirling 06/05/2008 01:05:17
#14 - Tell me, which party achieved the highest share of the vote from the Scottish people in last May's election?

By your reasoning people voting for the SNP is tantamount supporting independence

Making your argument: "Another day of nat-wits fantasing about support for independence that doesn't exist. Oh joy!" (#3) somewhat self-contradictory.




24

Alfred E. Neuman,

06/05/2008 01:16:31
27 F S

You really are a deranged fantasist. The people of Scotland do not want independence, if they did there would have been a single issue party at any one election and got voted in.

The SNP know better than anybody that a referendum would fail and that is why the delay and stall until 2010.

A tactical vote against Labour is not a vote for independence. I would advise you and all the other SNP nutters to try and forget your fantasies, the anger and pain of waking up may be too much for you.
25

Benedict Arnold,

Paris 06/05/2008 01:29:05
I have seen it suggested elsewhere that the First Minister would be well advised to welcome Ms Alexander's support for a referendum on independence and to suggest that a cross-party conference be held (between the SNP and the Labour Party) to agree the type of referendum (two options or three options) and the wording of the questions, etc. while maintaining that, as the National Conversation is an SNP manifesto commitment, it must run its course.

In this way Mr Salmond calls Ms Alexander's bluff and pulls the rug from under her . . . again.

I expect he is intending to do something along these lines. It would be in character. The next FMQs should be interesting.
26

Edward,

06/05/2008 01:30:12
Wendy Alexander was lying all through the interview on the Channel 4 news, it got so bad with her ignoring to answer questions put to her, that even the interviwer was getting fed up with her. She came accross as a complete idiot!
27

Boggle fey the Bog,

06/05/2008 01:35:33
Ah well, wee windy is really at it noo, a referendum in 12 months.

Well as she is so well acquainted with 'parliamentary procedure' she undoubtedly knows that the current sessions business has already been set out. So to 'inject' this piece of 'Grandstanding' into the present session is nigh on impossible.

But of course she already knows this, so her words are designed to provoke more 'trouble' between Westminster and Holyrood.

If it she did manage to get it introduced, then the other 'Onionist' parties would savage it in 'committee', given that they have laid all their faith in 'Windy's Commission of Omission'.

So that leaves Gordo to force a 'Referendum Bill' through Westminster to apply to Scotland, this would probably have the desired effect, and give a landslide for Independence.

As that is the only way she will get a referendum in '12 months' and the good citizens of Scotland might just take umbrage at Gordo's arrogance by forcing a referendum on Scottish independence but not on a United States of Europe!!

Aye sillier and sillier by the hour, ye coulnae mak it up.
28

Edward,

06/05/2008 01:36:15
Gordon Brown and his puppet Wendy Alexander should start to appreciate that Labour are NOT in government in Scotland. The days of just railroading decisions concerning Scotland are well and truly over.
The other opposition parties really have to get a grip of the situation as Labour are hell bent on manipulating the so called commission as well as any cooked up referendum. Surely to god its dawning on them that there being used! Have they not twigged that the so called commission is not to include independence and that supposedly there was to be no referendum, yet now we have Wendy the witch of the west wanting to have one before the commission is supposed to finish next year. Its all about Labour self preservation. Labour want to noble Scotland and noble the SNP, by forcing a referndum before the time set by the SNP, that way they think they will neutralise the Scottish vote at the general election and return the usual cadre of Labour MP's, so saving Labour
29

Edward,

06/05/2008 01:38:04
'Labour may do it themselves to get an early vote'
sheer unadulterated arrogance!!!
30

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 06/05/2008 01:44:06
This sudden conversion to a referendum on independence shows Wendy Alexander to be a poor leader of a major party. I don't think she has thought this through. It was an impetuous change of position, done merely to spike Alex Salmond's guns.

She set up the constitutional commission but has not the patience or the manners to wait for Calman's proposals. It only makes her look flakey and irresposible.

She throws herself into a project but before she sees it through, she gets fed up and sets off in another direction. She is so desperate to get at the SNP and Salmond that it is obscuring common sense. I think she is too fickle and flighty to be Leader of the Opposition let alone First Minister.

She says not having a referendum now was causing uncertainty. It is Labour's many u turns that is doing that. They just look like a party in disarray.
31

,

06/05/2008 01:45:46
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32

Edward,

06/05/2008 01:47:24
#29
I think thats a smoke screen piece in the Telegraph
Gordon Brown has alsredy discussed this with Wendy Aleander and instructed her to do this. This ia a last throw of the dice senario for Brown, he actually thinks he is going to be able to hang on until the next general election. So he is now trying to manipulate the Scottish population by having a referendum earlier so that Scots are still unsure if they can go it alone. plug in a 40% rule and non voters (ie the dead) count as a no. he gets the result he wants, come the general election, more people will vote labour as they have been proven right about the referendum, simple manipulation, all in order for Labour to survive. That is the way Gordon Brown thinks, thats what Wendy thinks, the pair of them are completely demented. A bit akin to the old bunker mentality
33

Raygn,

Yellowknife 06/05/2008 01:57:04
Ok Wendy lets call for a referendum so that the stupid voters can forget all about the other issues and we can sidetrack them away from our incompetence and non performance issues.
Is Labour really that thick that they think the electorate are so easily fooled. Then again they (electorate) have voted Labour in for 50 yrs in Scotland as the country went down the economic toilet so maybe Wendy and her cronies do have it figured??
34

williamx,

Canada 06/05/2008 02:02:31
I guess the red phone in Wendy's office is still connected to Westminster and issues instructions at 9 am each day. Perhaps she has flipped her lid. No doubt her brother has something to do with this, perhaps as part of a plan to replace Brown with D Alexander. Just imagine two of them at once. Good cop, bad cop scenario?
35

Phil the Flooter,

Perthshire 06/05/2008 02:21:01
#20 Temper temper

so you are saying that English people living in Scotland are prohibited from having an opinion or a vote?
36

Edward,

06/05/2008 02:23:12
#40
I found the last part most enlightening:
'It has now emerged that key documents were moved out of the country by an ally of Gordon Brown in the wake of The Sunday Times’s investigations.
Until the first story appeared in February, a complete seven-year run of the SIF’s financial records, including bank statements, had been held by Donald Storrie, the SIF chair at the time of the dinners.
After the initial press coverage, Baroness Mary Goudie contacted Storrie and asked for all the files to be sent to her home in London.
Goudie, 61, a former SIF secretary, is one of Alexander’s closest supporters and donors, and is also friendly with the prime minister and his wife.
Contacted by the Sunday Times, Goudie said: “I don’t wish to speak with you, goodbye,” then hung up.
Simon Pia, Alexander’s spokesman, said: “These complaints were made by SNP activists who are trying to score political points. The electorate are not interested in these petty political squabbles'

Sorry Simon Pia your wrong this is a criminal act!
Wendy Alexander is upto to her neck in this.
If there was nothing to hide why move the documents?
I find this disgusting to say the least, Alexander and the rest of her clique do not deserve to be re elected
37

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 06/05/2008 02:25:52
The last desperate gasp of a tarnished Union.

Wendy knows that if the referendum takes place after the next Westminster election that the outcome will be an unequivocal vote for Independence.

Desperate to save her failing Union, she has chosen to roll the dice before hand.

A number of Questions still need to be answered.

If the majority vote for Independence, will the Government in Westminster be bound by that decision?

Who will conduct the vote, the UK government or the Scottish Government?

If the vote is for Independence will Wendy and the Labour party support Alex as he negotiates Independence and will they vote to support the enabling legislation?

The negotiations are likely to drag on into the next General Election, will the Tories be bound by the result to negotiate Scotlands Independence?

Unless she can give the Government guarantees on these questions then her quick fix is just a sham.
38

Alfred E. Neuman,

06/05/2008 02:41:22
47 Kampung

You are another one of these deranged fantasists. Your posting bears little or no relevance to the real world, is unsubstantiated and the work of pure make-believe on your part.

I like the way you finish with wild speculation.

The majority do not want independence so save your breath.
39

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 06/05/2008 02:53:57
I think Alex should enter into negotiations with Wendy on the legislation to be put forward.

Since she is so desperate she is likely to agree to anything.

Then letter her introduce the carefully crafted bill to parliament.

Once the bill is on the record, then withdraw your support unless the bill is amended to fix a date in October 2010 for the referendum.

The bill will fail, then in January 2010 you introduce the identical bill.

Watch her twist in the wind as she struggles to decide wether to support her own legislation.

Give em enough rope........
40

,

06/05/2008 03:11:01
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41

Royster,

06/05/2008 03:13:31
#52. Why bother? In political terms 2010 might as well be 2110. Can't understand why the SNP is against this. There is a chance they may win the referendum given where the oil price is at the moment - though in sterling terms it's not that much more than before. The best way forward is to close Holyrood first at the stroke of a pen then give Scotland a chance to vote on full and immediate independence. The SNP would have a much bigger chance that way as it would annoy most Scots and all the MSPs on the local gravy-train. However it would solve the neverendum problem.
42

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 06/05/2008 03:31:45
So we now have a new investigation of Wendy's false fundraising.

Good on the SNP for letting the authorities know about the Strathclyde police pretending they investigated her corruption. They never questioned anyone even Wendy never spoke to police. Well thats obviously except when she asked the fraud squad to let it go away.

And now the docuements have all been sent down to London addressed to a good friend of Wendy and Gordon Brown.

And you lot thought we were actually living in a democracy. The Scottish People are being treated with contempt by the London Controlled New Labour Party and its time for us to put a complete end to it.

There should be a complete and open police inquiry. It should not be conducted by Strathclyde Police, but a seperate force or better a foreign force like Interpol.

This shower should be sent to some Scottish Island and forced to live a very basic life similar to the past generations of Scots. No electricity and they eat what they grow. If they cant they should starve just like our poor ancestors.
43

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 06/05/2008 03:33:11
Follow Traqirs link. http://tinyurl.com/5czutz
44

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 06/05/2008 03:46:55
Joseph, it seems like you are arguing against yourselve. The attitude you have about politicians was gained through the Union Politicians and the Union system.

The other matter about the EU, is in my opinion still up for grabs. I will be the first to argue that a referendum on the EU must be held by the new Independant Scotland. I also will be demanding that the Sovereignty of our Waters and Culture should not be up for discussion. If Alex Salmond thinks that for one moment that Scots would dump Westminster and then give up one inch of our land, to another foreign power, then he is dreaming.

The Scottish People will be Sovereign of Scotland as per the Declaration of Arbroath and there will be no signing of a Scotland/Eu deal without our permission.Scotland has enough resources to set us up for the long term. If we use it right and build up overseas investment in Scotland, then the world is our oyster. NO MORE WAITING FOR OUR POCKETMONEY FROM LONDON.
45

,

06/05/2008 04:16:23
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46

Jock Politicaljunkie,

Glasgow 06/05/2008 05:12:04
So Wendy is now a Refrendum Convert - poor Annabel, poor Nicol. With friends like Wendy who needs enemies? I would love to be a fly on the wall the next time those 3 meet again!

I suspect that Wendy has panicked and the assessment of one of her Scottish MSP's that she is making up policy on the hoof is correct. Her idea of any referendum being a simple yes/no question IS good though and should be adopted by all parties – there can be no scope for any ambiguity on this most important issue.

The SNP manifesto promised a Referendum in 2010 and that is what they will do. (They did, after all, win the Election) Why should they rush headlong into an early vote just to suit a political adversary? As David Cameron is now all but guaranteed to win a UK general election, probably now delayed to the 5th of May 2010, Salmond could do worse than going for 19th of August 2010 for the Independence Referendum.

By then the Tories would have been back in power for 3 and a half months; the Labour Party civil war should be getting along nicely; the UK Parliament would be in recess; and the weather should be good.

Welcome to the debate Wendy.
47

Saul Tyre,

Germany 06/05/2008 06:21:26
A referendum within 12 months and who will be leading the campaigns?

For the Union: Wendy Alexander (with Gordon Brown in her corner)
For independence: Alex Salmond

She hasn't a hope in hell.
48

Mike Cardiff,

Cardiff 06/05/2008 06:24:20
Scotland is to be admired in having the confidence to at least debate this issue while in Wales we are still divided on whether we even really want an assembly.

The option I do not see mentioned is whether a referedum could also include returning to the pre devolution status! I am sure in Scotland it would be rejected, in Wales I am now so sure.

Is Wendy's game simply that she wants to follow brother and big daddy Gordon to Westminster and will do anything to get there?

In Wales we do have some Labour figures willing to put Wales above party - thus the coalition with Plaid - but always with Labout the UK party will come first.

PS If so man other nations in the EU have smaller populatiosn than either Wales or Scotland why are we both so scared of standing on our own feet.

PS I am actually half English, half Scottish but have lived in Northern Ireland and Wales for most ofmy life and only lived in England til 10 so not too much harm was done.
49

TommyKaye,

UK 06/05/2008 06:46:40
Alexander didn't tell Brown of Scots vote plan

Gordon Brown has been bounced by one of his closest allies into accepting a snap referendum on Scotland breaking away from the 301-year-old Union.

PAWendy Alexander, the Scottish Labour leader, announced her backing for a "Yes or No" vote on independence.
The U-turn was a further blow to the authority of the embattled Prime Minister who was not informed of Ms Alexander's announcement.
It also caused ruptures in Labour north and south of the Border with Westminster sources aghast at her move.
Mr Brown opposes a referendum, which Alex Salmond wants to use to ask whether his administration should "negotiate a settlement with the Government of the United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes an independent state".
It is understood that Ms Alexander wants the SNP leader's proposals, for a Bill in 2010, to be brought forward so they do not coincide with Mr Brown being defeated in a general election.
In a further sign that his authority is waning, she was given the overwhelming backing of Labour's MSPs who claimed it was a choice for her and not the Prime Minister.
Horrified Westminster Labour sources last night labelled her strategy, which she hopes will "neuter" the Nats, a "freelance operation".
But Ms Alexander argued that the delay in Mr Salmond bringing forward his referendum legislation was causing uncertainty that harmed Scotland's economy and its relationship with Westminster.
She said: "Our message to the First Minister is enough of the huff, puff and bluff. Bring it on. The issue is [that] the SNP are running scared of Scotland's verdict. I certainly don't fear the verdict of the Scottish people. We shouldn't delay it until the very fag end of this parliament.
"I am attracted, I have to say, to there being a straight choice for or against independence, which is something the First Minister maintains he wants but seems reluctant to put to the vote."
She said she would not give Mr Salmond a "blank cheque"
50

donald,

glasgow 06/05/2008 06:49:44
Bring it on Turkey.

Roll on Xmas.
51

Royster,

06/05/2008 06:51:05
Well judging from the comments here, it looks like the nats are really quite scared by the prospect of a referendum. Still calling Wendy childish names and using pathetic anti-union rhetoric.
52

Conway,

06/05/2008 06:54:29
Come on Scotsman ,Scotland has never had a referendum on Independence ,Devolution yes and that was when the Unionist parties put in the 40% rule to put back Scotlands right to self goverment 30+ years.
53

pehman,

06/05/2008 07:00:44
I'm confused

Sources close to Ms Alexander have made it clear that while she is currently challenging Alex Salmond, the First Minister, to bring forward a bill now,


Labour may do it themselves to get an early vote.---------------
So here she says she wants an early vote, then comes up with this--------


last night, a spokesman for Ms Alexander said: "A tipping point has been reached. It is now clear the general election will not take place for some time -------------------
Would that be because you don't want an early vote then ?

As for her tipping point remark, she's spot on. People are getting realy keen on tipping the labour party out on their @rse.

PS, WHO are you going to get to introduce this in w/minster wendy ?




54

steve 1511,

aberdeen 06/05/2008 07:02:46
wendy the bung would not even answer why she had decided to change her mind on a referendum on channel 4 news, she looked a right eejit,but we already know that,but she has the support of wee dougie the incompentent brother,wit a pair of dunderheids in one family
55

Anonym,

Somewhere 06/05/2008 07:08:11
When does Wendy Alexander want a referendum on Europe to be held?
56

Jimmy the Pie,

06/05/2008 07:15:35
Now that Red Wendy has done a dramatic U-turn on a referendum, can we expect to see the e-mails???
57

Royster,

06/05/2008 07:19:10
Who cares about a referendum on the EU? Who's to say that an independent Scotland will be allowed into the EU without giving up all of its assets? Its negotiating position outside the union will have all the strength of a deflated crisp packet. Scotland may be allowed to stay in the EU as is...but it is by no means certain.
58

Aesop,

Edinburgh 06/05/2008 07:34:02
The woman who has publicly supported an independence referendum for all of one day now wants to decide the timing. Laughable.
59

Ubi,

Edinburgh 06/05/2008 07:45:47
Four legs good, two legs better. Ms Alexander has to hope that the people do not realise she is treating them with contempt.

Let's not imagine for a second that this complete about-face has anything to do with the country's interests. The target beneficiary is, as ever, the Labour party.
60

Jimmy the Pie,

Bringing it on, 10/10 06/05/2008 07:50:58
#75
You forgot these 'facts' Royster. The scare stories are already starting.

And a 30 foot high fence will be built at the border, patrolled by armed guards. Families will be split in scenes similar to those witnessed in East Germany. Power cuts will be widespread and frequent. Terrorists will flock to attack Scotland. Food shortages will be commonplace. Vulnerable 3 year olds will drop like flies
Inflation will run at 500% rising. All hospitals will close as they are owned by the NHS. Haiti and Burma will start sending aid to an independent Scotland. Cuba and North Korea will run Scotland's armed forces. The manufacture of begging bowls will be Scotland's only industry.
61

Independence? Bring it On!,

06/05/2008 07:54:55
So, what news from Bella G and simpering Nicol this morning? They must be delighted at this latest embarrassing own goal from the WENDY. Teeny tiny Sir Ken Calman's commission brought to its knees before it had a chance to grill the boy from Big Brother or decide how it's going to reject Independence...

One can only surmise that both Tory and Lib Dem support will actually rise after this case of the WENDY placing both of her feet in her ever malleable mouth.
62

Royster,

06/05/2008 07:56:58
#78. What startling wit! I suppose the lack of meaningful nationalist comment on this board comes from the fact that SNP HQ hasn't come up with a response yet. Its drones and lackies don't know what to do unless they have the party-line drip fed to them. You're all just a bunch of cadres and culties.
63

Rob,

Moray 06/05/2008 07:59:15
What is the rarest bird in Scotland today?

A Nat who wants a referendum.

Let us hope that the Tories and Lib Dems do something sensible at last and join with McLabour to introduce a bill.

Meanwhile Nats, here's a new strap line/song to replace the very clearly redundant "It's Time" - "Running Scared"
64

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 06/05/2008 08:00:14
I think Royster, that we will find that Scotland's case for remaining in the EU is considerably stronger than a crisp packet.Estonia,Slovenia,Malta,Latvia,Lithuania etc were all welcomed into an expanding EU.Interesting to see Slovenia (less than 2 million people) now taking the presidency of the EU.I'm open about EU membership but I do know that there is strong support for Scotland out there.

Getting back on topic,I welcome Wendy Alexander's (alleged)conversion to a referendum.However,I suspect that her motives have more to do with politics than a desire to test public opinion.I also wonder how much support she has in her own party? No matter,every time we see a surge in SNP support,other parties concede some ground (albeit as little as they can get away with).However,is obvious that the status quo is no longer an option. let us see how far the tide goes up the beech,this time.
65

catgut,

pomona 06/05/2008 08:01:08
It does not take much thinking to figure that labours time is running out, and the panic to have a vote now.

Sorry wendy im not going to suddenly return to voting labour now that you actually have a policy. Even when it happens to be one I agree with.


Labour have taken the bait, salmond just has to wait his moment to set the hook.
66

Conan the Librarian™,

06/05/2008 08:07:08
80
Never been called a cultie before, something close though.
67

Independence? Bring it On!,

06/05/2008 08:08:23
The WENDY was asked four times on C4 news last night, when she had changed her mind on her policy towards a referendum.

She was unable to provide an answer and then denied that the SNP proposed a referendum in 2010 which had been in the party's election manifesto.

She seems to have convinced herself that she was not performing a U-turn, despite various quotes on the record that she was vehemently opposed to a referendum.

Why would she deny that the SNP proposed a referendum in 2010 in their manifesto? When it's clearly stated on p.15 of the manifesto, and has been repeated consistently throughout the past year.


Royster, Rules and Rob are you seriously telling us that you will vote for her?
68

JayJay,

Right here 06/05/2008 08:17:16
Who is paying for the cost of the Calman Commission?
I suspect it is the hapless taxpayer.
Since Wendy has now enthusiastically chosen the one option Calman won't be looking at, I'd respectfully suggest Calman submit a final invoice to Wendy HQ (split into handy sums of under £999.99) and pack his sarnies into his case.
This is like the behaviour of a hydra. Cut off one heid, and another one pops up, flapping around in a panic.
Honestly, given a choice between characters like Wendy, Jackie and Andy, or going it alone, I think I know the choice I'd be making.
69

Jimmy the Pie,

06/05/2008 08:20:21
Red Wendy's behaviour is becoming quite disturbing and erratic.
I'm sure there is medical support out there for her (and Comrade Broon). All quite sad really, but not entirely unexpected
70

Rob,

Moray 06/05/2008 08:23:20
#86. Of course not. No-one in their right mind votes for Labour you numbskull. However, her U Turn if that's what you want to call it should be welcomed by you Nats as it allows you to fulfill an election pledge early - and now of course 2010 becomes the more important part of the pledge. Well, what a surprise!! The fact is you don't want to ever ask the electorate a straight forward yes or no question because you know what the answer will be. I voted SNP - the only party that offered a referendum but I don't give a monkey's for any of your other daft policies which are almost as bad as McLabours. Now you are reneging on the only thing I voted for - and we all know why. No courage of your convictions at all.
71

Scotland to prosper...,

06/05/2008 08:32:31
It's ridiculous of Wendy to use the Commission as a springboard towards a referendum; it's not even looking at all the options! i.e. Independence!

Hopefully the people of Scotland will see through this ploy and realise what it really is. Wendy has absolutely no interest in what the people of Scotland think with regards to Independence and to do a u-turn on the issue is pathetic.

The unionists can twist this any way they like, the fact is the SNP have been and will continue to be steady in their conviction towards a referendum and will not be phased by Wendy’s crazed tactics. It smacks of desperation when she is actually u-turning on a policy and agreeing with the opposition to have a referendum, she’s obviously no credible argument and now hopes that the Scottish electorate will come to her rescue by being reluctant to vote “yes”.

I wouldn’t trust the Labour party to sit the right way round on a toilet…
72

Stepford Nat,

06/05/2008 08:33:19
What do we want!? INDEPENDENTS!
When do we want it!? IN ABOUT 3 YEARS TIME!

www.snp.com : we shall undercome, some day!
73

inoui,

Fife 06/05/2008 08:35:09
Sad days for labour.
74

Jimmy the Pie,

06/05/2008 08:36:45
#89

"Now you are reneging on the only thing I voted for - and we all know why."

You really do talk a load of rubbish. Try lying down in a darkened room and take your medication.
75

Foresight,

By the Water of Leith 06/05/2008 08:39:19

For twelve months now Gordon Brown has tried every ploy in his book of Dark Underhand Tricks to undermine the legitamately elected government of Scotland. He has done so with such bad grace that the sour grapes are now churning inside him with such dramatic effect that he can no longer be seen as a socialist, socialists after all have principles, as a leader, so indecisive, or a true Scot, a traitor to the land of his birth. Devoid of any further Dark Underhand Tricks he has taken a last throw of the dice through his "poppet on a string" north of the border to rock the constitutional boat. He and his poppet will be well judged by the people of Scotland not just for the enormity and manner of their U-TURN but for their total discoutesy to the Lib-Dems, Tories and Sir Kenneth Calman, who would be fully justified in walking away from the Constitutional Review.
76

Royster,

06/05/2008 08:40:53
#83. Whether Scotland is in the EU or out of the EU is irrelevant. It's its negotiating strength which is important. Those small countries you mentioned had to meet the EU's requirements for entry. End of story. Scotland's bargaining power without England is much weaker. In the same way as the UK's bargaining power outside the EU is weaker. It's just.. like... soooo obvious dude.
77

Linda,

Edinburgh 06/05/2008 08:41:31
Apparently Wendy was slaughtered on Channel 4 news last night.

Has anyone got a link to this?
78

beckypumps1,

Fife 06/05/2008 08:44:24
I voted SNP and for a referendum in 2010.This gives us a chance to see how Mr Salmond and Co get on. Why the sudden hurry for a vote, I thought Bendy Wendy and her crooked chums were against giving the good people of Scotland the chance to vote.Within Dunfermline there is a Lot of support for independance people are fed up with labours arogant attitude and criminal activity.
79

Alastair the First,

06/05/2008 08:45:59
Quote from the article above:

In the 1979 referendum, 40 per cent of the electorate as well as majority of those who voted had to support independence.

Famously, the independence vote was higher, but the 40 per cent threshold was not reached, partly because deceased voters still on the electoral roll were included. They were effectively voting against independence by not going to vote.

Unquote.

This is absolute rubbish. The 1979 referendum was not about independence - it was purely about devolution. I can't believe the Scotsman could get something as basic as this incorrect. Or maybe they chose so to do...
80

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/05/2008 08:46:26
Does Wendy not realise how incompetent she is. This policy flip-flopping demonstrates one thing and that is that she is putting her own and and her party's interests ahead of Scotland's interests.

The Libdems and Tories must surely pull out of the Constitutional Commission now or they could kick Labour out. Either way they cannot continue as before.
81

Jimmy the Pie,

06/05/2008 08:47:19
#96 Linda

Sorry no link.

It was unbelievably embarrassing. She came across like the half-witted runt of the litter.

It actually looked like she had made up the whole thing by mistake!!!
82

Rob,

06/05/2008 08:48:17
#93. Aw shucks Jimmy the Pie. Your far too clever for me............
83

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/05/2008 08:52:25
#3 alf

Unfortunately your glib statement appears to be under-mined by the fact that Wendy seems to think the people might vote the "wrong" way if the referendum is held in 2010. So you appear to be in a very small minority which is deluding itself to think that there is no support in Scotland for independence. Clearly there is.
84

Jimmy the Pie,

06/05/2008 08:53:21
#101

Yes obviously.

PS it should read - you're, not your, but never mind.
85

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 06/05/2008 08:55:12
I think that Wendy doesn't realize that she no longer sits on the Government side of the house.

They only place where Labour has a majority is in Westminster.

Can you imagine the backbench reaction against wobbly Comrade Brown if he introduces a bill for an Independence referendum for Scotland while denying a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.

The English Labour MP's will have the daggers out so quick it will look like Shakespears Julius Caeser.

Et Tu Milbrand?

That leaves the option of Wendy introducing it as a private members bill into Holyrood.

Unless she has able line up support from the Tories and LibDems, who at this point are probably feeling a little betrayed by her U turn, this bill will die in committee.

Other than get her ugly mug plastered all over the media this strategy will do nothing other than convince the electorate she has finally lost the plot.
86

Scotsman in Dublin,

06/05/2008 08:55:40
"And one Labour MP asked if Ms Alexander "was off her head""
The most sensible quote from Labour yet!

Labour have come to the realisation that they will lose the next Scottish and UK elections and have resorted to desparation tactics. Labour know that when the Scottish people come to realise the spectre of 8 years + under Tory rule they will realise that Indpendence can prevent English votes imposing a Tory goverment in Scotland. Wendy is simply trying to take the wind out of the SNP sails before we reach that point.

I am not sure how Wendy expects to be taken seriously after this massive U-turn but but if the end result is the publics 1st ever opportunity to vote on the union the objective achieved.
87

Iain's,

06/05/2008 09:00:15
Not the brightest little bunny is she?

Just like Boris did not stand a chance!

Do Old New Labour not realise that everyone hates them for Iraq, taxing everyone out of existance, and being even more right wing than Maggie T.

Oh well at least a Scottish passport will be cheaper than a UK one.
88

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 06/05/2008 09:01:29
In response to Robb (#89)the SNP are not reneging on their policy to hold a referendum.They will carry out that election pledge on schedule providing they can get enough support in parliament.Their schedule in the manifesto was dictated by a (sensible) desire to grow public confidence in an SNP government.Wendy Alexander's late conversion to referendum, and her schedule, is dictated by the recognition that Labour are likely to lose the next election for the Westminster parliament.

I wonder which policies you don't give a "monkey's" about. Is it abolishing the graduate endowment fee,prescription fees,keeping health care local,increasing police numbers,helping small business,freexing council tax,growing the economy etc ? All public surveys indicate that a large majority of the public care very much about such issues,and the SNP governments approval rate is very high.Like you,I am impatient for a referendum,and very interested to see whether Wendy can deliver when the referendum bill is placed before parliament.
89

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/05/2008 09:05:48
#37 Huntly Loon

Correction, she is NOT a party leader. She leads the Labour group at Holyrood. Nothing more!
90

Miss H,

06/05/2008 09:08:47
89 On the contrary - a straightforward yes/no referendum is the SNP's preferred option though we were willing to include a 'third way' on the ballot paper if the Calman Commission recommended one.

So I personally am delighted that the leader of the Labour Party in Scotland has endorsed the principle of a straight vote though it does leave the Calman Commission rather in the lurch. It will now be all but impossible for Labour to oppose the Government's bill on a referendum.

The timing is of course important because the people of Scotland have an absolute right to know what they are voting for. Labour's tactics - if that is what they are, if she hasn't just flipped out - will be familiar to anyone who has ever attended a political meeting. When someone moves to go straight to the vote that means they want to cut out the debate. Well that's not acceptable and should not be acceptable to anyone who has a shred of respect for democracy. Henry McLeish outlined the reasons for that very well on Radio Scotland this morning.
91

Clive Hamblin,

06/05/2008 09:09:26
#20 Democracy - by alias but not by nature?

92

Gina Gibson,

Wales 06/05/2008 09:12:32
Wendy wants a poll but what Wendy NEEDS is a good kick up the erse!
93

The Strategist,

06/05/2008 09:14:47
Another reason to support independence..

"Gordon Brown is in “very dangerous territory” on corporate taxation, with Britain facing an exodus of companies moving to lower tax regimes, a leading business organisation has warned.

Changes under Mr Brown’s premiership have made tax “problem number one” for British business, the EEF manufacturers’ body said"
94

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 06/05/2008 09:15:44
#108 Because until now there wasn't the remotest chance of getting it passed by the Parliament, and it would therefore have been a total waste of time.

You know this perfectly well, so why do you continually debase the level of debate by asking such idiotic questions?
95

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 06/05/2008 09:15:57
No Royster,it is not obvious that Scotland's bargaining power is less than smaller countries who are now full members of the EU.It is quite likely that Scotlands bargaining power is greater than Estonia,Malta,Slovenia,Slovakia,etc.I do agree that whether an independent Scotland is better to be in or out of the EU is a matter to be debated. I currently live in Finland which has full EU membership and frequenrely visit my sister-in-law in Norway,which is not an EU member.Both countries look relatively prosperous but have taken different paths.However,full membership of the EU would give Scotland greater authority and representation than it currently has.I can also envisage a large block of smaller countries ,with mutual interest providing a powerful lobby within the European Parliament.

Regarding the topic of the day,I welcome Wendy Alexander's late conversion to referendum.Unfortunately,evidence is starting to emerge that she does not have extensive support within the Labour party.It will be interesting to see whether she can deliver her Labour MSP's when a referndum bill is debated in the Scottish Parliament.These are very interesting times.The only thing that is gauranteed is that change is coming.We just don't know when exactly.
96

Miss H,

06/05/2008 09:16:09
95 Utter nonsense. On issues where the EU actually has a serious impact - fishing and agriculture for example - Scotland has gained absolutely NOTHING from being represented by UK ministers. The opposite is true. Why the heck do you think support for the SNP is so strong in fishing and farming areas? These are the people who know the reality of how poorly Scottish interests are currently represemted.

Independent membership of the EU would be an improvement for everyone, England as well as Scotland. Because where our interests coincided we would have more votes as two different countries. Bit equally where Scotland's interests differed from England's we would be able to put our interests first, as every other member state can do.





97

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/05/2008 09:17:55
At the next election, David Cameron will sweep to victory. Alex Salmond will point to the fact that the people of Scotland have had a Tory government foisted on them by English voters and are therefore disenfranchised. David Cameron will want to jettison Scotland and all of its remaining Labour MPs. Cameron and Salmond will tacitly agree to a velvet divorce and a referendum will be held. The Scottish people will vote in favour of independence and labour will be fatally weakened in what remains of the UK.

This scenario, on top of the recent Local Authority wipeout, is what has driven Brown and Alexander to play this last desperate card, which is doomed to fail.
98

Nikostratos,

06/05/2008 09:18:49
#110

So you want a Referendum when the 'Independence' option is in what % in the opinion polls........


"The timing is of course important because the people of Scotland have an absolute right to know what they are voting for. Labour's tactics - if that is what they are, if she hasn't just flipped out - will be familiar to anyone who has ever attended a political meeting."

And the people are familiar with the snp tactics little to do with what the Scottish people may or may not want. All to do with the snp playing politics no different than Wendy.




99

Nikostratos,

06/05/2008 09:20:07
#117

You don't know Dave at all do you?
100

Toast,

06/05/2008 09:22:28
Personally I am in favour of more powers for hollyrood and perhaps independence in the fullness of time,but if Alexander want to force the issue I and many others would rather go with Alex Salmond and independence than a return to the apathy,incompetence and nepotism of new labour,go on wendy,force the issue,I dare you !!
101

Ctinj,

Alloa 06/05/2008 09:27:36
I watched the Politics Show on Sunday, and found it interesting that Wendy Alexander was being given such an easy time by the presenter. I found it especially interesting as it would appear that every time a labour supporter or MP is on the BBC they get an easy ride, whilst members of any other party are thrown to the wolves.

And before the labourites start bashing me, no I am not an SNP supporter, nor am I a conservative, or lib dem. However if I was to choose, it most certainly wouldnt be labour.

I would like to say this - come on the media, lets have the same treatment for everyone, because your bias is clearly showing.
102

Miss H,

06/05/2008 09:27:53
118 You really do not grasp what any of this is about do you?
103

Queen D,

Glasgow 06/05/2008 09:30:14
Some poster reminded me of the occasion when those who did'nt bother to vote were considered to be "NO" voters.
Democracy?
Gordon Browns sticky little fingers ALL over this one!
Channel 4 , my favourite TV news channel , was briliant! Oh! How I laughed!
How come the BBC NEVER give Wendy a hard time eh?
104

subrosa,

06/05/2008 09:32:18
Alex Salmond is interviewed on Hardtalk which can be found on BBC iPlayer.
105

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 06/05/2008 09:33:03
She doesn't want a referendum ... no need for a referendum... the people speak through elections..etc etc...

Now the lady is for turning and NOW she is demanding that the referendum be on her terms run to her timetable...

Do the words grandeur of delusions spring to mind....not necessarily in that order?

Good to see she now supports SNP policy. She will indeed have her two choice referendum.......in 2010. Next.
106

JimC,

Kilmarnock 06/05/2008 09:33:23
#108, seems you don't keep up to date on affairs over the last year. Salmond has been clear in his timetable for a referendum for some time now. However the opposition have always said that they would not support a call for a referendum, the Tories and Lib-Dims still maintain that position. Given that Nu-Labour have sunk to a 40 year low, her timing is confusing, in Scotland Salmond is riding high, Wendy is seen as Mrs Bean or as one of the Labour MP's put it "off her head", this could go badly for Labour in Scotland. However my concern is 2010, a Tory government in power and here in Scotland we are fighting among ourselves. Kind of reminds me of my history lessons where the clans fought each other rather than the English, will we ever learn?
107

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/05/2008 09:36:31
#81 Rules states:

"A referendum is the last thing SNP wants as it's their ONLY policy"

Do you expect to be taken seriously coming out with patently untrue statements like that.
108

megz,

east renfrewshire 06/05/2008 09:38:47
If wendy is wanting the referendum in 12 months and the calman report won't have finished by then, can i just ask what the hell was the point in the commision/review/workgroup??
109

acanthus,

Edinburgh 06/05/2008 09:38:48
Why would anyone worry about Labout tactics? Has everyone forgotton the Brown had an opportunity to go to the electorate when he was well ahead in the polls? Hardly a party of master tacticians really are they? Salmond will continue with his policy for the introduction of a referendum in 2010, while watching the Labour party's further disintegration. The Labour party will then be eliminated from the equation leaving just the question of Independence or Conservative rule....caviar for Alex!
110

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/05/2008 09:39:08
#82 Rob

Actually most Nationalists do want a referendum. The issue is timing and it is generally accepted that the "yes" vote will be stronger in 2010 than today. It's called having a strategy and political light-weights like wee Wendy will not deflect this.
111

Farmernot,

oan ma muckspreader 06/05/2008 09:39:42
Did I miss Weny's conversion to pole dancing somewhere ?????
Would not like to see that......stick to the farming side of things Wendy......Foot in Mouth.....you'r good at that.

112

James.com,

Clirton 06/05/2008 09:40:25
What is funny here is the way that Labour automatically thinks that it speaks for Scotland: and continues to do so.
113

heidbanger,

Edinburgh 06/05/2008 09:44:33
For the last year Wittering Wendy and the rest have maintained that the electerate had rejected the IDEA of independance.

Now someone has changed her mind for her.

I am reminded of the comments by the Gould enquiry into the fiasco of that election, where he stated that the political parties were so busy trying to get an advantage that they ended up treating the electorate with contempt.

As far as wittering Wendy is concerned, nothing has changed.
114

brownlie,

06/05/2008 09:45:00
118 Nikos

Even as a unionist I have to admit that, as you so rightly put it, "people are familiar with the SNP tactics". Probably because the tactics were laid out in their manifesto.

119 Nikos

You must be in the fortunate position to know Cameron well enough to be on first name terms when you call him "Dave".
115

Alan B,

06/05/2008 09:46:27
Welcome uturn by Wendy. Unfortunately for her she is trying to force an early referendum as a way of cutting and running. She obviously thinks tactically that the snp have momentum and she wants to take the wind out their sails. She also realises that if the referendum is after the general election it will be the tories calling the shots. Part of wendies problem is her manner. The fact is it is normally the government that calls the shots not the opposition.

Having said that the holding of a referendum is the right thing to do and also a good tactical move.

Personally i have 2 issues.

1)i do not believe that the referendum can be before the calman report. people need to know what is on the table from calman. how can we realistically make up our minds on the best option if we do not know the alternative.

2)tactically i think the snp would have been better going with a gradualist strategy. i think the snp would have been far better going with a 2 step process. 1 more powers and then 2 independence referendum in a 2 parliament.

they really should have welcomed the steel report as a basis and worked with the lib dems on having these powers implemented this parliament. primarily they should have pushed for fiscal autonomy. (i can understand why they did not, swinney did and it was too dry an issue for public consumption).

a scottish parliament running everything short of foreign policy, defence, currency and eu membership would have advanced scotland and also made an independence referendum a cleaner issue to argue with specific powers being discussed.

116

Davie from Irvine,

Ayrshire coast 06/05/2008 09:48:03
Looks clear that wee bendy Wendy desires to undermine her own commisions plan to grant more powers to the Scottish parliament with the straight independence yes or know. Yet it could backfire on her.
117

Davie from Irvine,

Ayrshire coast 06/05/2008 09:49:00
Where is AM2 ?
118

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/05/2008 09:49:31
#119 Niko

Does that qualify as serious debate in your household?
119

puskas,

East kilbride 06/05/2008 09:50:06
No101 Rob,

Jimmy the pie certainly is far to clever for you... Sussed you out easily like 95% of the forum members...

Rob you are an imposter... Your quotes are barren of sense LOL. Other than the Jimmy the Pie quote, cleverer than you ... That is obvious ..

Grand old Duchess of Paisley who had so many men/women,
who marched them up to the top of the hill and marched them down again... Of course she didn't even get half way up..

Alex our (First class) First Minister Salmond is leading from the front. As the independence debate progresses the gap will get wider in favour of freedom. That as I suggested previously may be won at this time but a certainty in the future as the SNP stick by their promise of a referendum..
The truth of the matter is that the unionist cabal may now be split by Ubendy's change of direction..
The question could be did the others in the unionist alliance already know and have knowledge of Wendy's U turn...
I'm positive in my own mind that Mr Salmond has a crystal ball. He will outdistance himself even further to advance the Independence march.

Lol .. Nu Liebour jumps when Wendy tells ya!.

Doesn't say much for her disciples as she leads them into the wastelands forever..
120

Scotsman in Dublin,

06/05/2008 09:50:20
#108, what a stupid comment - the SNP stood for election on a pledge of a referendum in 2010 and will deliver on this unless blocked by the unionist bloc.
121

acanthus,

Edinburgh 06/05/2008 09:53:20
With regard to a general point on 'Unionism' in Scotland. It seems that this is really all that you stand for, no matter who rules from Westminster. But what i find most entertaining is that if you visit the baords on the Telegraph and the Times you cannot find any Unionist comments! In fact the opposite is true as most of the posts are either telling Brown and his 'Jocks' (other choice phrases are used) to go back home or that England should 'get rid' of Scotland!
I suggest some of the Scottish Unionists join these boards to try and convince the English of the benefits of the Union.
122

megz,

east renfrewshire 06/05/2008 09:55:05
'Now someone has changed her mind for her.'

Perhaps someone just blew in her ear. The woman is a nuggets and her own constituents are sick of her lipservice. Hopefully they are sick enought to kick her out on her armani suited erse in the next election. Maybe wee jock can take her to malawi with him. is he ever going to leave, or is the thought of a by election too much to stomach for slab right now. C'mon jock put the boot in you'll enjoy it!
123

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/05/2008 09:55:28
Does anyone know what her Holyrood colleague really think about Wendy's volte face? Also, is she still p1ssing them all off with her over-bearing, hysterical manner? There must be some gossip out there?
124

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/05/2008 09:56:10
colleagues
125

Alan B,

06/05/2008 09:56:28
If brown would get some guts and call a general election for next summer after labour 4yr term of government and not hang on till the grim end. That would clear the way for a referendum in the summer of 2010.

It would allow scotland to know to what extent the tories will ban scottish mps from voting on westminster issues and how that will work. It will also allow the calman report powers to be given to the sp.

As such it would give a much clearer picture of where everything stands.
126

A voice from SCOTLAND..,

06/05/2008 09:58:11

From Times Online
May 4, 2008
Wendy Alexander funds inquiry probed
After SNP complaints, the police investigation into "fraudulent" Labour fundraising is to be scrutinised
Tom Gordon

SCOTLAND’S police complaints watchdog has launched an investigation into Strathclyde’s handling of fraud allegations made against Wendy Alexander, the Scottish Labour leader.

The Scottish National party dismissed the initial inquiry as a “whitewash” after Strathclyde fraud squad dropped the case after six weeks without interviewing Alexander or any of the key witnesses. Officers also failed to examine important financial documents.

The six-week inquiry centred on allegations that £12,000 was raised illegally at two dinners to pay for Alexander’s 2003 election campaign.

The £50-a-head events were promoted by the ostensibly neutral Scottish Industry Forum (SIF) under the banner “Renfrewshire Renaissance”. Many guests, including SNP and Conservative supporters and representatives of Reid Kerr College, attended, expecting to hear about local regeneration.
127

Alan B,

06/05/2008 10:00:14
#146 can wendy vote in a referendum if she is behind bars
128

Embra Don,

Edinburgh 06/05/2008 10:02:07
I agree with Alfred E - everyone but him is a deranged fantasist.
129

pwd,

Hawick 06/05/2008 10:02:33
This issue calrifies one thing that shines clearly through the fog created by the so called parliament and its inhabitants in Edinburgh: the future of Scotland has been placed disproportionately in the hands of second rate operators. Alexander, Salmond, Sturgeon, Stevens, all dreadful - and then it gets worse. Scotland I feel for you now.
130

A voice from SCOTLAND..,

06/05/2008 10:03:29


However, there was little talk of anything but Labour, and the money was later transferred to Alexander’s office account in the run-up to the 2003 elections.

Bernard Ponsonby, the political editor of STV, and Jamie Webster, GMB steward on the Clyde shipyards, also agreed to speak at the June dinner without realising the event was a Labour fundraiser.

After a member of the public complained to Strathclyde police, the force assigned the case to its fraud squad in early March. Officers said that because the tickets did not claim to be raising funds for any specific purpose, there was no misrepresentation.

On Tuesday, Christine Grahame, the nationalist MSP, wrote to Jim Martin, police complaints commissioner for Scotland expressing concern about the case.

She claimed there had been a “fundamental failure” by officers to pursue a proper investigation into the allegations.

“I understand that not a single material witness was interviewed and none of the evidential documentary material that allegedly demonstrated a fraud had taken place was sought or checked, despite police being notified as to details of its exact whereabouts.
131

Publius,

London 06/05/2008 10:03:37
I can't stand Wendy, but having reflected, I've decided that Wendy is right about this one. The sooner we can have the referendum and move on - whatver the outcome - the better.
The SNP, and their supporters on this board, should welcome the idea of an early referendum on the single question of independence. By their account Scotland has been oppressed/robbed/lied to for over 300 years. So they can't possibly want any more. A referendum in 2009 must be better than one in 2010. 2008 would be even better.
132

A voice from SCOTLAND..,

06/05/2008 10:04:26
“There appears therefore to have been a fundamental failure by Strathclyde police to fulfil their statutory duties under the Police Act and to pursue a properly conducted investigation into these very serious allegations.

“It is not clear if this apparent failure represents a systematic breakdown in investigative policing by Strathclyde police or whether a decision was taken simply not to investigate properly because of the political links in this case.

“In any event it does not appear as if Strathclyde police have applied the normal robust standards of investigation that would normally be expected of them, given the serious nature of the allegations made.”

It has now emerged that key documents were moved out of the country by an ally of Gordon Brown in the wake of The Sunday Times’s investigations.

Until the first story appeared in February, a complete seven-year run of the SIF’s financial records, including bank statements, had been held by Donald Storrie, the SIF chair at the time of the dinners.

After the initial press coverage, Baroness Mary Goudie contacted Storrie and asked for all the files to be sent to her home in London.

Goudie, 61, a former SIF secretary, is one of Alexander’s closest supporters and donors, and is also friendly with the prime minister and his wife.

Contacted by the Sunday Times, Goudie said: “I don’t wish to speak with you, goodbye,” then hung up.
133

acanthus,

Edinburgh 06/05/2008 10:07:53
Saying that we have to move on from the independance debate (which is politics) is like saying that all political debate should stop because it is dominating politics...how stupid!
134

Davie from Irvine,

Ayrshire coast 06/05/2008 10:08:11
Wee Wendy is from a long line of labour politicians who believe they have a right to govern Scotland unchallenged like a blank cheque from the electorate, not anymore thankfully.
135

Alan B,

06/05/2008 10:12:56
#Publius

Morning! Hope u are back at work :)

Do u not think that it is better to wait for the outcome of Calman?

I just do not know how many people can make without knowing the alternatives.

Personally while i want independence i would far rather move to fiscal autonomy first. Managing change and all that.
136

Pomodora,

Gravesend 06/05/2008 10:15:17
Good for Wendy. Great political move. She is calling the bluff of all who talk Independence by asking them to put their money where their mouth is. It has to be YES or NO, simple as that.
137

A voice from SCOTLAND..,

06/05/2008 10:16:02
#151. It is for the democratically elected Government of Scotland to decide when to launch the referendum. Alex Salmond is a master political tactician who can buy and sell Wee Wendy and her gang of torn faced overpromoted shop stewards any day of the week.

The Scottish Government will not be bounced into taking decisions that are not in the interest of the people of Scotland.

The antics and the malevolence of this bitter and twisted bunch of failed politicians that now make up the unionist voice in Scotland are a complete embarrassment and are damaging Scotland. God knows what people must think when they see this lot on the telly. Channel 4s demolition of Wee Wendy was just cringe worthy and showed her up for what she is, a wee lassie who has lost her way.

It is very significant now that we see what is left on this forum from the unionist gang hut. The dregs of the blogosphere hammering out there spite and bitter madness on their fousty key boards in their damp dreary semi's, or in some cubicle in the Scottish Office with nothing better to do than waste the taxpayers money, even on minimum wages.

GOD BLESS AND KEEP ALEX SALMOND PRIME MINISTER OF SCOTLAND AND HIS SCOTTISH GOVERMENT.
138

acanthus,

06/05/2008 10:18:05
pwd, Hawick "This issue calrifies one thing that shines clearly through the fog" LOL

Surley this statement 'clarifies' that something that shines so clearly need no be clarified?

No wonder you cannot see just how well the SNP are performing..everything seems to be in a slight haze for you!
139

roughrider,

Glasgow 06/05/2008 10:19:54
Ubendy Wendy is making a fool of herself yet again.
Just like the 60 thick liebour msp,s who abstained in the budget after the SNP govt agreed to liebours amendment, pathetic stuff from a party of self seeking clowns.
London controlled puppet ubendy wendy the crook is spinning faster
than a cat in a spin dryer.
The only policy that the liebour scum party have seems to be one of self preservation at all costs, fcuk what the Scottish people want, riding the gravy train is much more important to liebour.
140

pwd,

Hawick 06/05/2008 10:21:06
*159
Stop wasting your own and other people's time.
141

Embra Don,

06/05/2008 10:21:56
#149 Obviously all Scots are second raters. Not a single one of those you mention was able to go to Eton.
We need people of the character of Lord Wheatcroft to lead us from somewhere in central America, or possibly Lord Laidaw. Or do you favour importing quality leaders like Sarko, Berlosconi, Bush....?
142

acanthus,

Edinburgh 06/05/2008 10:27:56
pwd,
I don't consider trying to educate you a waste of time at all!
143

Embra Don,

06/05/2008 10:28:31
157
Pomodora, Unfortunately for Wendy, that is not what she was saying in the last campaign, or when she persuaded the unionist camp to set up a working party to think things through, or even last week.
144

Phil C,

06/05/2008 10:29:27
The unionists who pop up here are quite pathetic. One minute it's- "We don't want or need a referendum" then it's "Let's have a referendum now!!" Wendy's pooped her pants, helped by Gordon, and you all trot round like little sheep. What are the other opposition parties now saying?

You all know that the tide is definitely flowing with Alex at the moment. I can smell the fear in all of you that it becomes unstoppable, in time. You may even be thinking of swimming with it. If so the come on in and get respect; it's the only healthy way forward. Wendy thinks she can spoil things with a snap poll.

The SNP have always stuck to their aim of a referendum within the parliament, probably 2010. So for once we're not too far apart and a compromise yes/no poll could be set for late 2009, early 2010. As things stand, the unionists would be favourites to win by a short head. But who knows?.

Fun times ahead! One thing's for certain. Given their record of incompetence, Labour should not be allowed anywhere near the poll administration. There must be no deviation from Alex and Wendy's preferred yes/no (independence/status quo) option and whoever polls the most votes wins. Simple eh? Wait for Labour's dishonest and weaselling conditions.

The SNP won't give up our dream, regardless of any poll! If a longer strategy is what it takes then so be it. Scotland can't really lose in the long run, maybe just take a wee breath.
145

Alfred E. Neuman,

06/05/2008 10:30:47
I return 100 posts to have to skim through the normal deranged fantasies.

This mainly involves imagined "fear" amongst anyone who doesn't want independence. (The only group of voters with a clear majority so absolutely only bothered about the waste of time having to soend a night voting on it.)

Also deluded claims that while they would lose a vote today (ignoring that contradicts the "fear" claim.) in 2010 they will get the independence fairy votes because holding a referendum on an issue not many want at the correct time somehow magically changes peoples' minds.

Oh yeah, and the fact Wendy Alexander is an embarassingly useless leader of a political party the whole of the UK dilslikes, I'm not sure what relevance this has to anything to be frank. Everyone agrees. But as some the "people of Scotland" voted for Mx Alexander and independence does not remove us from the stupidity of some of "the people of Scotland" it is entirely likely we'd see Ms Alexander and the usual suspects in an independent Scotland too.

Totally deranged and in some cases downright psychotic fantasists on here. The point they make come from the colourful of denial and make-believe.
146

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 06/05/2008 10:31:15
A simple "yes or no" vote eh? What? You mean like your brain-dead incompetant party of fools did with the so-called "consultation" on the nazi-state smoking ban?

Don't make me laugh Wendy! You are probably the worst one of the whole lot for using 2,000 words when three will do.
147

Union is Best,

06/05/2008 10:31:49
"And one Labour MP asked if Ms Alexander "was off her head""

Ridiculous. I would just like to join my fellow Unionists who have opposed a referendum, on the basis it is a distraction from vulnerable two year olds, in now welcoming a referendum.

Thursday 26th July 2007:
Nicol Stephens - "Every minute spent on a referendum is a distraction from more important priorities such as health, education and crime."

Labour MSP George Foulkes agreed.

"The SNP's plans for an independence referendum confirm their arrogance and failure to listen to the overwhelming views of the Scottish public," he said.

"Labour will resist their plans at every turn."
148

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/05/2008 10:32:18
#151 Publius

What you fail to realise is that we Nationalists generally recognise that an early referendum may not give the positive result we desire, whereas a referendum in 2010 is almost guaranteed to. Given that fact, why on earth should we agree to go along with Wendy's proposal. This is a battle and to win you need to have a strategy. you clearly have not understood this.
149

Alan B,

06/05/2008 10:32:50
#pwd
"in the hands of second rate operators. Alexander, Salmond, Sturgeon, Stevens, all dreadful"

Given that the only leader u missed out was goldie, i think that suggests that u are probably tory.

While i think goldie has performed well she does not have the x factor that salmond does. To portray salmond as second rate says more about u. U may not agree with him but that is not the point.

Anyway to describe the holyrood ones as a second rate. Compared to westminster. do not make me laugh.

If we are honest we can have a go at all politicians. The us with reagan and bush etc. Are they first rate. Most of the british prime minister were poor. Major, callahan, heath. Look at thatchers cabinets. Howe and hurd, baker etc.

The snp leadership look good with Salmond, mccaskill and mather. Goldie is as good a tory leader as i have seen since younger. labour poor quality at the moment in both parliaments after having had people like cook and smith.
150

Union is Best,

06/05/2008 10:34:47
166. Great post! If only it was coherent! I admire the juxtaposition of your frenzy and panic with your "independence will lose anyway" position (we Unionists do know best after all, and Scots will do as we say!). Some Nats will be asking why we are all so rabid and flummoxed on this if we are sure we will win, but they fail to see that we are rabid anyway! Ha,
151

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/05/2008 10:34:48
#158 A voice from Scotland

Buying wee Wendy is really not that hard......
152

Union is Best,

06/05/2008 10:35:30
171. Great stuff! I am not a Unionist either, I just oppose independence and support the Union.
153

Union is Best,

06/05/2008 10:36:15
173. Rubbish, buying Wendy means including a stamped addressed envelope with your cheque for £950.
154

Embra Don,

06/05/2008 10:37:42
166 Alfred, Are you and PWD the same poster? you seem to share the same belief that everyone else is deranged or unfit to govern. I think we should be told
155

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

06/05/2008 10:38:31
#158 It is up to the Scottish Parliament NOT the Scottish Government when a referendum is held. There is nothing to prevent an MSP bringing forward a private member's bill to do so - it is not just the Scottish Government's legislative programme that the Scottish Parliament passes. Moreover, if Parliament decides to amend the Referendum Bill it is perfectly entitled to do so.

That being said, as things stand neither Alex Salmond nor Wendy Alexander will get the referendum when they want unless they get the votes of the Tories and/or the Lib Dems.

The truth of the matter is that both the SNP and Labour only want a referendum to take place if they have a good chance of winning. Labour wants a referendum sooner because it reckons (and quite rightly in my opinion) that they are more likely to win a referendum held sooner rather than later. The SNP don't want a referendum now as they know they need time to build support for independence.
156

Phil C,

06/05/2008 10:43:57
#176 Embra

They're just daft Tories! For once that puts them somewhere above Labour in the pecking order.
157

Alfred E. Neuman,

06/05/2008 10:46:26
176 Embra Don

When I say that SNP posters on here are deranged fantasists, I mean that they log on daily to indulge in the euphoria of pretending out there hopes of independence, that is as close as they will ever get.

As you are an SNP idiot you have just made up I don't believe ALL other people are unfit to govern. That is pure stupidity on your part.

I claim that Ms Alexander and the Labour party are comprised of people, many of whom are unfit to govern, they are not ALL people.

What a deluded individual you are.

You are obviously claiming Ms Alexander is fit to govern through an unrelated attack on whether I have the right to freely and fully express my thoughts on the matter.

It's a usual SNP argument, nonsensecial, contrary to logic and the laws of physics, totally irrelevant and devoid of any real merit.
158

brownlie,

06/05/2008 10:46:42
166 Alfred

The usual congratulations!

Tremendous contribution to the unionist cause. Clear, cohesive and comprehensive as always.

Cunning move to keep the insults to the last paragraph. Halfway through I was beginning to wonder if you had run out but you came back strongly in the end. As usual you did not let us down.
159

Union is Best,

06/05/2008 10:47:10
177. Indeed. We Unionists used to say that the Scottish Parliament could not hold a referendum on independence, as it was ultra vires. We have now changed our thinking on that after careful study.
160

Embra Don,

06/05/2008 10:47:25
I wonder if Wendy still argues that the Scottish economy is only viable if the price of oil is around $50 or higher but that its longer term value is unlikely to be above $30. Perhaps she has changed her mind on that one too?
161

Phil C,

06/05/2008 10:48:22
#177 The guy who used to be a nun

You're in the 'quick! quick! quick! Before the people wake up' camp. How does that help federalism?
162

acanthus,

06/05/2008 10:49:12
166. You are the deluded on i think. Try reading your statement again with a cup of coffee:

'in 2010 they will get the independence fairy votes because holding a referendum on an issue not many want at the correct time somehow magically changes peoples' minds'

You see just how..mmm..daft this statement is? People DO change their minds, hence the reason the SNP are 'magically' in power and that was nothing to do with 'fairy votes' (lol at the expression).

But i agree with you that there are stupid Scots so i will leave you with your fairies and magic..deranged LOL
163

Scotsman in Dublin,

06/05/2008 10:52:53
#171, I hate to be the one to break the news to you but if you "do not want independence" then you ARE a unionist. P.S. using the term 'Tartan Taliban' is offensive and childish - its a sign of your desperation that you are trying to compare a politically moderate democratic party with an violent extremist group.
164

Jimmy the Pie,

06/05/2008 10:55:18
Has his Lardship, Lard Foolkes commented yet on Red Wendy's amazing U turn?? Thought not.
Probably later on today once the remnants of a heavy weekend on the lobster, caviar,champers, port and 25 year old single malts clear away.

It's a hard life being a socialist you know.
165

Alfred E. Neuman,

06/05/2008 10:56:19
185 Acanthus

You are a prime example of the deranged fantasist who allows denial to rule their minds.

People do change there minds that is true. But not many on the issue of independence.

People voted for the SNP because they are fed up with Labour, this also explains why Labour did so badly in England and Wales, and is further historically compounded by the LIb-Dems often losing votes to the opposition parties in times when people vote tactically to remove one side's dominance.

Voting SNP is not a vote for independence, they are more than a single issue party. The SNP are clearly a preferable option to the Labour party as they return services to the tax-payer for the tax-money by taking some back of the clients of the state Labour created.

But your deranged mind that is dominated with denial and hatred/fear won't allow you to accept that fact.

You argue that people who vote for the SNP in times of utter dismay at the sitting will ALL vote yes at the referendum for independence.

Two obvious holes in you logic.

1) Even if they did, the referendum would still fail.

2) They wouldn't anyway, may votes for the SNP were votes against Labour.

You are a deranged fantasist I'm afraid, unable to admit reality.
166

Union is Best,

06/05/2008 10:59:00
189. Great post. The more we Unionists tell people why they voted for a certain party, and how they will vote, the more support we will claw back!

I love the reversal of the "one issue party" line about the SNP! We have been saying for an age they are a single issue party, now we say they are not!
167

brownlie,

06/05/2008 10:59:52
177 The Fed

I think you will find that if the SNP and Labour vote together then the Tories and Libdems are heavily outnumbered in Parliament.
168

,

06/05/2008 11:00:26
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
169

Embra Don,

06/05/2008 11:00:33
# 186 S.i.D Give Rules but not rulers a break - he thought he was being clever by re-introducing alliteration. After all - he can't really call us the Tartan Tories now, can he.
170

Alfred E. Neuman,

06/05/2008 11:01:05
Cont'd

most business budgets (if they cut down on the wages of their chief executives and slightly reduce their bonuses for stockholders) companies must put their employees first.

Working Hours

There should be a legal maximum of 24 hours per week ie six hours for four days per week. All employees should have a basic right to flexible working hours

Holidays

50 days off per year (10 public and 40 statutory)

Pensions

Companies should be forced to provide a pension contribution of at least 20% of their employees wages per year
171

Alfred E. Neuman,

06/05/2008 11:03:44
The SNP does 'ave 'em! Eh?!

What a laugh.

I like the way numbers are offered in a pretence that calculation has been done.

£25 an hour, 24 Hours a week, 20% pension.

That is so funny. The SNP bloggers are deranged fantasists with no understanding.
172

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 06/05/2008 11:03:50
Wide Mouthed Wendy Had A Plan

To Try And Outwit The Salmond Man

The Big U-Turn Looked Quite A Hit

Till The Salmond Went And Supported It

It Was She Not The Salmond That Where Given The Can
173

dido-bendigo,

Scotland 06/05/2008 11:04:13
Couldn't agree more! Let's have a Yes / No vote and get it over with! Just don't let the manipulators draw up any other questions for the voting papers. No Advisers. No PR releases, No hidden costs, No electronics. Just a pencil and a sheet of paper, a ballot box, a polling station, and a group of honest counters. Oh! and make sure there are no fuel strikes or cancelled ferries!
174

Embra Don,

06/05/2008 11:05:01
# 192. Alfred you have a fantasist fantasy. Are you deranged? I think you are a nationalist posing here as a Unionist to discredit them. OMG - its getting to me too.
175

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 06/05/2008 11:11:00
#180

"When I say that SNP posters on here are deranged fantasists, I mean that they log on daily to indulge in the euphoria of pretending out there hopes of independence, that is as close as they will ever get."

No, we come on here to watch you foaming at the the mouth.

176

Phil C,

06/05/2008 11:11:31
You keep confusing people's party political allegiances with people's feeling towards the issue of independence. That's why, to help those like you, we are hopefully going to hold a yes/no, independence/status quo vote at some point. At the moment the polls are pretty even, if slightly favouring the unionists.

You'll be able to stick to your (tory) party line or you could vote for independence, before developing your party political ideas again. Does that not sound wonderful to you?
177

acanthus,

06/05/2008 11:11:36
You are right and the probable reason the 'fairy votes' will magically emerge is just as people were fed up with Labour so they will become fed up with a United Kingdom being run into the ground while they are inexorably dragged down with it.

Scotland has the chance to be a progressive, modern, prosperous and engaging country and not a country burdened with a cumbersome, inward looking and archaic system of government.

People like you are the ones who are truly deranged as you are willing to accept any rule other than that of taking the route of independence (even at the expense of the welfare of the country)..that is derangement!

You are correct with some of your points but don't call all Nationalists 'deranged' as the locic can be equally and more forcefully applied to your political beliefs.

And i do not suffer from denial of and neither do i hate anyone for their political views (facists excluded).
178

Calum10,

06/05/2008 11:12:06
Wendy's referendum isn't going to happen in 2009 for three reasons.

1. The SNP will turn a referendum into a beauty contest between a very popular Alex Salmond and a deeply unpopular Gordon Brown. Brown will certainly not want that before a UK general election.

2. The SNP will call upon the ghost of Maggie Thatcher to flag-up the return of the Tories to power at Westminster in 2010.

3. Any bill put forward by Wendy Alexander on this issue will be transformed quickly into a vote of NO CONFIDENCE in Wendy Alexander's leadership. She will lose.

What is going to happen, well before 2009, is that Wendy Alexander will be ousted as leader of Labour MSPs. As we speak Labour ministers and Labour MPs at Westminster are plotting poor Wendy's downfall.
179

Phil C,

06/05/2008 11:12:22
Sorry #200 was for Alf.
180

Highland Mighty,

06/05/2008 11:14:50
177. A cunning ploy by Wendy, perhaps?

Put forward a referendum Bill for a vote within 12 months, wait for the SNP to vote against it as it is too soon for their liking, the Bill fails.....and then Labour votes against the SNP's own referendum bill in 2010 arguing that they had their chance.
181

MtnKat,

06/05/2008 11:18:04
What will she do next to keep her name in the papers?
182

CLX,

Way Up North 06/05/2008 11:18:20
Alfred E. Neuman
Deranged, Fantasies, Fantasists, when are you going to move a bit further on in your dictionary (by the way you missed out words beginning with E) and give us a break.

Have a word with yerself and you may realise what sh*t you speak/write...
183

HughB,

Edinburgh 06/05/2008 11:18:21
I can see the plan now. It's so obvious.

Gordon Brown knows he's finished at Westminster, so he gets Wendy to setup a referendum so Scotland breaks away from England.

Gordon Brown then comes back to Scotland so he can be the Prime Minister of Scotland.

That's probably his only hope of ever being Prime Minister again.
184

Union is Best,

06/05/2008 11:18:44
204. I like your spin and thinking!

Would have been more clever of course if Wendy and Labour hadn't spent the last 12 months rubbishing the idea of a referendum, saying a referendum was grandstanding at the expense of vulnerable 2 year olds, and promising to oppose one.

But as we Unionists know Scots are thick, they won't remember all that and will see our Unionist committment to a referendum is based on principles we have long held!
185

Alan Reid,

NZ 06/05/2008 11:23:06
Wendy has some gall, after all this screaming against the SNP, she thinks she can now force the SNP to come up with a poll now. On your bike!

Alfred the Grate....
Please shut the f u c k up!
Can't you see that your just like any other Unionist
t w a t that feels the only way to try and make a point is to insult. Trouble is i've gone and lowered myself down to your knuckle dragging level, sad really!
186

Francis Edinburgh,

Edinburgh 06/05/2008 11:24:01
The SNP will decide when and where NOT BENDY WENDY ands her Cronies.

Anytime will suit me just fine though Wendy and my answer will be a resounding YES to Independence
187

Phil C,

06/05/2008 11:24:26
#192 Alf

Joe Middleton is an outspoken socialist bampot. He's allowed to have his views. He's 'sort of' welcome in the SNP, just as rabid 'tories' are welcome. We have a broad base, with support from across the political spectrum and we tolerate all who share the common goal of an independent country, with it's own soul and it's people in control of their own destiny. I think you'll find that SNP policy is generally a bit left of centre and quoting the rantings of the political basket cases alters nothing.
188

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 06/05/2008 11:27:46
#205

My guess is Fray Bentos pie eating competition with Andy Kerr, Duncan McNeil and Jacky the Hutt.
189

Rob,

Moray 06/05/2008 11:28:07
Certainly enjoyed Suomi’s (107) response with his list of unsustainable policies of the SNP. Good stuff. As it happens, I too think the SNP’s record is good – let’s face it there isn’t any alternative – but that doesn’t mean they should be let off their #1 election pledge.

I liked Miss H (110) too. For a party to say yes, we will support your referendum pledge, is of course tactical, but then everything is within the context of a minority government. You can’t seriously suggest that there has been too little debate on this issue. Wendy’s saying “come on son – have a shot at goal” and most of the “don’t believe the opinion polls Nats” now want the ball in touch as fast as possible. The clever ones know that a back door has to be found to get this past the Scottish people - but the people want clarity through the front door – yes or no does that, nothing else.

I’m like a lot of people in Scotland who feel there is no-one to vote for in the real world so the SNP is an option as you do know that they will concentrate all their effort on Scotland, even if it is all wrapped up in nonsense. That, however, does not mean I want independence. It does mean that I want the independence issue settled quickly and once and for all as it is the biggest distraction in British politics. I am not even remotely nervous about the outcome. It seems the pro-independence types are and they are now running to cover with trumped up excuses for not proceeding after bragging for years on these blogs what our destiny would be in a referendum. Suddenly, it’s not time any longer – why, just when you have the prospect of what you need to do it - a majority in the Assembly. Doubtless people like me will be told that I don’t understand, am too thick,fantasist, not really Scottish, leave the country, I’ve misunderstood etc etc accompanied by the usual abuse for disagreeing with “oor destiny” - so I’ll plead guilty to all charges. And indeed, to make it worse I do like the English

So brin
190

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

06/05/2008 11:28:25
"184 Phil C,06/05/2008 10:48:22
#177 The guy who used to be a nun

You're in the 'quick! quick! quick! Before the people wake up' camp." How does that help federalism?"
.
.
Not strictly true.

I have always supported a referendum - whether or not it was winnable.

The 'quick! quick! quick!' comment I take is aimed at the advice I gave in previous posts - I still stand by that. I have never understood why the unionist parties thought that delaying a referendum was going to help their cause in the long run. Ignoring the issue was not going to make it go away - on the contrary it was going to make it more likely that they would lose when it was eventually held.
.
.
"How does that help federalism?"
.
.
As for Federalism - progress if it is a multi-option referendum - not just a simple yes/no. I'd like to see at least a third option of greater powers for the scottish Parliament including complete Fiscal Autonomy - not just the Fiscal Federalism that Alexander is proposing.

A third reason for supporting a referendum sooner rather than later - I'd rather a decision was made that allowed whatever Scotland emerged to concentrate on the bread and butter issues like health, housing and education. That's not to say we are not doing anything about them now - it's just that they don't seem to have the same priority as the consitutional settlement. And before anyone criticises me - I know Alexander made the same point the other day - in her case though it is an excuse not a reason.
191

Rob,

Moray 06/05/2008 11:30:48
Leftover......

So bring it on. There are no valid reasons whatsoever to hold back except fear of the result. Then the SNP have the slogan we all want to see – “It’s over
192

Stirling Sentinel,

Stirling 06/05/2008 11:31:08
I don't know why everyone is getting so worked up about this. We are all ruled by Brussels anyway so a so called independent Scotland would simply form an additional Region within the EU with its own local parliament with limited powers. No big deal and it certainly doesn't bother me. I can live with it although I prefer the status quo with Westminster calling the shots over things which matter. Billy Connolly was quite right when he referred to the Scottish Parliament as a "Wee pretendy parliament" some time ago!!
193

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

06/05/2008 11:31:18
"191 brownlie,06/05/2008 10:59:52
177 The Fed

I think you will find that if the SNP and Labour vote together then the Tories and Libdems are heavily outnumbered in Parliament."

Unlikely - can you really envisage them agreeing on a date for the referendum?

I can't.
194

Highland Mighty,

06/05/2008 11:32:24
210. No, Parliament will decide and don't expect them to give Salmond another 2 years to fuel resentment and anger.

If the majority in Holyrood want to have a vote now while support is low, then that is their choice, NOT the SNPs.
195

Union is Best,

06/05/2008 11:32:35
216. Nice moniker switch Highland/ ALfred and good change of direction!
196

MtnKat,

06/05/2008 11:34:45
212
Now that's a mental image I could have lived without and I have a bad feeling it's going to be hard to dislodge.
197

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/05/2008 11:35:02
#218 HM

And where will the parliamentary majority in favour of a referendum come from?
198

Highland Mighty,

06/05/2008 11:35:03
219. Who'd have thought such comments would still be boring.

Remarkable.
199

Publius,

London 06/05/2008 11:35:40
#318 Alan B
Good morning Alan
Back at work in London. Traffic not so bad last night. High fuel costs may be scaring drivers off the road.
I don't see the relevance of Calman to arguments about independence. Whatever Calman may come up with, it won't satisfy the SNP. If there is a single question referendum on independence and the result is no (probable outcome) Calman's report may be useful for the next phase of devolution. If the result is yes to independence, Calman will be irrelevant.

#169 connaughtboy
You may think your post is a Machiavellian masterpiece, but there may be a flaw. If local income tax hits the voters at the same time as the referendum - very likely - the SNP will take the rap. LIT will do for the SNP what the ten per cent fiasco has done for Labour in England. The SNP would be better to hold the referendum bofore the wheels fall off its bandwagon.
#
200

Highland Mighty,

06/05/2008 11:35:44
222. You could ask the same about a 2010 Referendum Bill....
201

Union is Best,

06/05/2008 11:35:53
Good job we Unionists can forget our own arguments on this so fast!

-----------------------------------
Sunday Herald Aug 13th:
Nationalist policy is for an SNP-led Executive to legislate for an independence vote during the party's first term.

The policy has long been shrouded in controversy after Labour claimed Holyrood did not have the power to organise a referendum.

Labour peer Lord Foulkes insisted Holyrood was unable to organise an independence vote: "The Executive guidance is the correct position. Salmond is trying to pretend the parliament has the power to hold a referendum, but he is misleading himself and others. The SNP would have no constitutional right to do it."

202

Phil C,

06/05/2008 11:36:20
#214 the guy who used to be a NUN

The 'quick! quick! quick!' comment is aimed at Wendy's newfound conviction and the the reaction of all the daft unionists! Not that you're a unionist or anything.

As for your federal arguments, you're playing in a different stadium, on your own. It has to be a straight yes/no.
203

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/05/2008 11:38:06
#225 HM

So, rather than answer my question, you ask another one?
204

acanthus,

06/05/2008 11:39:01
215: Rob,

I somehow do not think that Salmond will change a long term strategy due solely to Wendy Alexander's mania? Are you so stupid?
Presumably you are not a Tory as they are against the referendum....i have an idea, why don't all the Unionist parties have a referendum on the referendum...as they just can't seem to agree...then we can all find out exactly who is in favour and who is not.
Then you can all sit down and work out a strategy to try and combat Alex...he must be having a wonderful week LOL
205

Highland Mighty,

06/05/2008 11:39:08
228. Did I?
206

Union is Best,

06/05/2008 11:39:52
Good job we Unionists are flexible!

BBC News:

Ms Alexander said, repeatedly and as recently as the spring party conference, that independence and its associated referendum were an "obsession" for the Nationalists and not a topic for serious-thinking politicians.
207

Doh,

06/05/2008 11:40:58


Wendy should calm down a Tory victory is always followed by a Labour victory. It is buggins turn.

I am off to buy a top-hat, bullingdon waistcoat and enquire about school fees at Eton.

Pip pip.
208

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 06/05/2008 11:42:50
I can see how this will all plays out.

The SNP will say they will not support a referendum until 2010.

Wendy will deliver the bill to parliament and after all the Labour MSP's have cast their vote in favour.

Alex will stand up and announce that he also supports the bill.

As the votes from the SNP members are counted in favour a sharp shreek will echo through chamber as Wendy falls to floor foaming at the mouth having somekind of epileptic fit.

Andy Kerr, Duncan McNeil and Jackie the Hutt will also fall to the floor clutching there chests and obviously having a chain reaction heart attack.

The referendum will end being fought on the Unionist side by the LibDems and the Tories as all the Labour MSP's will be to busy fighting the party leadership campaign.

Wendy will enjoy a long convulesence in Carstairs as she will be unfit to stand trial on the corruption charges.

Jacky the Hutt and Duncan McNeil will recover from their brushes with death and retire from politics.

Sadly Andy Kerr did not make it as his breath was so horrible no one was willing to give him the kiss of life.
209

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/05/2008 11:43:08
#224 Publius

Two points. First, I believe that there will be a net gain in support for the SNP as a result of LIT. Only time will tell. Second, you say:

"LIT will do for the SNP what the ten per cent fiasco has done for Labour in England". Don't forget that the 10% tax rate issue will also have had a negative effect in Scotland too.
210

acanthus,

06/05/2008 11:43:51
Union is Best,
Like we actually needed proof that Wendy is not a 'serious-thinking politician' but a great quote lol
211

Highland Mighty,

06/05/2008 11:44:25
233. Hey, everyone! Our friendly raging racist has turned up!

212

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

06/05/2008 11:45:32
#220 If it followed last years's election outcome then in YES would get 35% and and NO 65%.

Actually I don't think you can use last year's elction as the basis to make any sort of prediction. There will be electors who voted for the SNP who don't back independence and vice versa (yes bizarrely there are Labour/Tory/Lib Dem voters who'd back their party but also back independence). One can only go by the polling information that shows (at present) that an independence vote would be lost.

I actually think it would be closer than a 35%-65% split - nearer 45%-55%.

But that is by the by - the point I was making was that the longer that the unionist parties put off a referendum the less likely they are to win. Of course this assumes that the SNP continue to governs popularly - we have all seen how quickly things can change. Salmond has a balancing act to play - he has to govern well but at the same time convince the electorate that he could govern even better with independence.
213

Alfred E. Neuman,

06/05/2008 11:46:57
233 Jackie Priest

You are a total buffoon and an idiotic troll.

Typical of the thuggery which is associated with the SNP neds on here. You think you can muscle in and bully your way to a position of 'correctness'.

People left these boards because of the SNP's thuggery. You just got annoyed when people started treating you with some honesty.

And that is the SNP on here are deranged fantasists with a propensity for thuggery.
214

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/05/2008 11:47:49
#239 Alf

let us know when you have finished having another hissy fit.
215

Union is Best,

06/05/2008 11:48:13
237. Yes, they all saw you before Highland. Do calm down, I am sure people will talk to you.
216

acanthus,

06/05/2008 11:51:29
239 is in danger of becomming deranged or is that just my fantasy lol
217

Johnny G,

06/05/2008 11:53:27
It's hilarious oberving the tosh that calls itself Politics in this country.
One one side we have the parochial nationalists, who have gone for the "left wing" vote for the last 30 years, but now team up with the Tories when they feel like it.
They have campaigned for Independance for their whole existance but are scared of asking the people a simple yes or no question.

On the other side we have Scottish Labour, run by an imbicele who makes Jack McConnell look like a statesman, and he was dreadful for Scotland. The fact she's not even spoken to Brown about her plans is just embarrassing and cringeworthy.

Then we have the Tories, who would stab their own grannies in the back to have some power and influence, by sacrificing their Unionist credentials to team up with the Nats because they know deep down that's where the right wing in Scotland is.

As for the Lib Dems in Scotland? Like their counterparts down south they're a toothless waste of space.

And the SSP? A Joke and a blight on Scottish Politics.

Holyrood is a sham, a waste of taxpayers money, and should be closed immediately, with powers restored to Westminster forthwith.

Remember, this is the parliament that discussed the Iraq war for days on end, when they had no powers whatsoever to make any decisions. A £250M talking shop is a joke.
218

Gill,

Perthshire 06/05/2008 11:53:47
It creases me up that Wendy thinks as far ahead as 12 months, when she can't see what's staring her in the gob (sorry!) right now, as was confirmed in the C4 interview.
She and her ponsy, half-witted brother made the mother and father of all mistakes when they hitched their wagon to Brown's cart. They are now headed over the cliff with him!
And the sooner the better...
219

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

06/05/2008 11:56:26
"202 Calum10,06/05/2008 11:12:06
Wendy's referendum isn't going to happen in 2009 for three reasons.

1. The SNP will turn a referendum into a beauty contest between a very popular Alex Salmond and a deeply unpopular Gordon Brown. Brown will certainly not want that before a UK general election."

That may work for general and Scottish elections but I am not convinced that it is necessarily the case for major constitutional change such as this. Many voters find it easy to vote against existing political parties and leaders because they feel that they are all the same - the "give them a chance" section of the electorate can't make that sort of decison here as their decison will be permannet not temporary as with normal elections. Moreover, this assumes Salmond continues to remain popular. One possible spanner in the works - if the efficiency gains that the Nats need don't materialise then they will have problems baalncing next year's budget.

"2. The SNP will call upon the ghost of Maggie Thatcher to flag-up the return of the Tories to power at Westminster in 2010."

Try that and all Labour does is remind voters of the SNP's role in bringing in Thatcher.

"3. Any bill put forward by Wendy Alexander on this issue will be transformed quickly into a vote of NO CONFIDENCE in Wendy Alexander's leadership. She will lose."

I doubt it - for once Alexander has an issue in which she can rally the Labour Party agaisnt their common enemy.
220

cataibh,

Bo'ness 06/05/2008 11:58:21
Has Diddy Broon agree to U turn Wendy on this?.
221

Edward,

06/05/2008 12:02:18
#195 Alfie
Thanks for the heads up
Here is the link to the website
http://tinyurl.com/6ppqn7
Seems fairly level headed to me
You see Alfie, the beauty of the internet is that everyone and anyone can check for themselves the truth and facts
something that Labour, especially certain imbibing Lords dont like
222

Rob,

Moray 06/05/2008 12:03:22
Acanthus. Yes, of course I'm stupid if you say so. I think the thing to do is to put it to the people now when you have the prospect of being able to do so. You might not get the majority in the Assembly if you wait. Mind you, my stupidity isn't quite so great that I don't know why you won't do that.
223

Union is Best,

06/05/2008 12:05:24
251. Quite right, because while Wendy said "A referendum is not an issue for any serious thinking poltician" in Feb 2008, there is now a principled case for a referendum, but only if held in the next 12 months. After that there will be no case for a referendum again because Labour's democratic and principled stance on this has a best before date.
224

Alfred E. Neuman,

06/05/2008 12:06:25
250 Edward

£25 per hour minimum wage, 24 hour max working week 20% non-contributory pension and 10 full weeks holiday a year seems level headed to you?

You must be one of Joe's monikers. Scotland's productivity would fall over-night, we'd be bankrupt within the year.

Level headed. Haha.
225

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 06/05/2008 12:06:47
If she's trying to put this referendum bill through Scottish parliament she'll need the support of the Tories and Lib-dums who signed up to her devolution commission (unwisely in my view - this was always about Wendy and Labour). The same commission which she has now neatly kicked into touch without so much as a consultation - even within her own party. Something tells me her judgement, always flawed in any case has just taken off somewhere without her.

If Broon had nothing to do with it, I imagine he's spitting teeth and blood about the word "referendum", bearing in mind how brave he was with the EU one.
226

Embra Don,

06/05/2008 12:09:02
243
Johnny G, I humbly acknowledge that nothing good could possibly come out of Scotland and await your suggestions for a better future.
227

Alan B,

06/05/2008 12:10:18
Given that the tories are going to win the next election and will probably be there for 2/3 terms, and given what happened the last time the tories ruled scotland for 17yrs. And given that they will have little democratic mandate in scotland. Why would anyone want to stay with the union?
228

Sanny,

06/05/2008 12:11:02
246 Methalions
I think he’s just another “waste of space” abusing the taxpayers largesse. Study? Too much like hard work!

229

Edward,

06/05/2008 12:11:06
Theres a touch of the 'we have been here before some how' with Wendy Alexander and the New Labour stompers
1979 - Unpopular Prime Minister, famous for 'crisis what crisis' statement allows a referendum in Scotland but imposes 40% rule and that anyone that doesnt vote (eg Dead people) count as a NO. Then when goes to the country with Labour spouting a vote for SNP is a vote for Maggie Thatcher (sound familiar!)
2008/9 - Unpopular Prime Minister, famous for many sayings, pushes his Scottish leader in popposition for a referendum, likely to impose 40% rule and that anyone that doesnt vote (eg Dead people) count as a NO and then when General election comes Labour spouting a vote for SNP is a vote for David Cameron (they cant realy say the Tory Party as Labour really are mor Tory than the Tories)
230

Embra Don,

06/05/2008 12:11:15
253 Alfred, Strange that the deranged fellow you are quoting used the expression fantasist in his diatribe. Coincidence?
231

Queen D,

Glasgow 06/05/2008 12:12:36
300 years , I'm willing to wait another 3 years for a referendum!
And then " Bring it on! "
232

Edward,

06/05/2008 12:14:03
#253 Alfie
Care to actually give the link to that specific page?
233

Edward,

06/05/2008 12:16:49
#254
Wendy doesnt do anything without consulting and taking orders from Gordon Brown
Suspect there is a tough of the machiavellian thinking from Brown on this
234

Mack1,

Carlisle 06/05/2008 12:17:17
Did Labour really think that voters would be happy with the constitutional anomalies created by Devolution? No. This was the start of a process that can only be resolved by the deconstruction of the Union. (Just as Czechkoslovakia did in 1993).
By the way, many of us south of the Border are sick and tired of being governed by incompetent Scots who want to have their constitutional cake and eat it. There is no satisfactory way to resolve the West Lothian Question other than independence for all. In that context why is it that Scotland only is being consulted on the future of the Union? Wendy Alexander hopes to wrong-foot the SNP in the belief that the electorate will vote for the comfort blanket of maintaining the status quo; has she never heard of the Law of Unintended Consequences?
235

kimba,

06/05/2008 12:19:31
Well done Wendy,the sooner the better, lets get this nons,if almond is so confidentense over and done with as soon as possible.
236

Union is Best,

06/05/2008 12:22:45
265. Well said, but should we Unionists not have a chance to learn English before the referendum?
237

Alfred E. Neuman,

06/05/2008 12:23:52
260 Embra

You use the word "the" in a lot your posts? Now... ? Where else I have seen this word?

Cuckoo! Cuckoo! Cuckoo!

You are typical of the deranged thinking of an SNP voter.
238

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

06/05/2008 12:24:32
Fishwife alert.
239

Alfred E. Neuman,

06/05/2008 12:26:18
262 Edward

Just google "Joe Middleton Independence Minimum Wage" then open up that page and hit --> edit --> find on this page --> "minimum wage" --> find next, find next until you hit the mad-man's ramblings.

If that's too hard for you best get yersel signed up to Lavour's skillz Academies
240

walter,

06/05/2008 12:26:32
Salmond wants to put forward a bill on independence at a time when he can use the result to his advantage.
Alexander wants Salmond to bring the bill forward and if he doesn't then she may as it will be to her advantage.
They are politicians they will do any thing that is to their advantage it is only expected.
What will be interesting is if Alexander puts forward a bill to hold a referendum and it is voted down by the SNP.
I think Alexander has played a blinder this time, she has played Salmond at his own game.
Salmond and the SNP have been shouting from the roof tops that they want a referendum, they have formed the Scottish government and say that they intend to put forward a bill for a referendum and that it would be undemocratic if the unionist parties voted against it.
There is no way the SNP can save face if they vote against the bill and it will be even worse if they then try introduce the same bill 18 to 24 months later.
241

Joe Neilson,

Edinburgh 06/05/2008 12:27:28
Wendy's position is based on tactics there is no principle. After the fanfare around the set up of the Calman commission in which Wendy was adamant there would be no consideration of the 'independence' option she has left Sir Kenneth in a poor position. Real leadership should have had Wendy encouraging a real debate and supporting the inclusion of the independence option in the Calman commission and supplying the public with information about the options. Now Wendy has decided to listen to those who think she can benefit from calling Alec Salmonds bluff. Is this another case of political dither/opportunism?
242

Rob,

Moray 06/05/2008 12:28:17
238 Jackie Priest. No acclimatisation required - this has been going on for years and all of Scotland know the issues. Delaying with that excuse is an insult to the whole country. Salmond far and away the best politician in Scotland - no contest. Look at the rest of the dross in the opposition and his own party - if you really believe in your cause you should do it now.

I suspect that your very gentle and even learned piece is aimed at only one objective and that is delaying it for as long as possible. Do us a favour - your far too smart to believe the rubbish in your post - give us a proper reason: no spin please.
243

Alfred E. Neuman,

06/05/2008 12:28:44
268 Jackie Priest

Thanks for sharing another losing fantasy.

The biggest indication of you talking crap is when you start a sprawling paragraph with "I think". While you may well, on a purely technical medical definition, you just sprout bullcrap you are making up on the spot.

I bit like Joe's "I'd say about £25 an hour minimum wage" should be right.

I mean, you can't take people seriously that vote SNP.
244

Rob,

Moray 06/05/2008 12:29:49
Walter 272. Correct. Hole in one their mate.
245

kimba,

06/05/2008 12:31:13
264. If i wished to be mishievous, i could cite the parallel of the former Czechoslovakia, in which Slovak independence parties gained most of the votes in their part of the country in the early 1990s. With great reluctance, president Vaclav Havel and the other Czech politicians granted the slovaks in 1993 the independence they had chosen. since then, Czechs have left their neighbours far behind economically!
246

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 06/05/2008 12:31:43
At least it would be amusing to see the SNP abstaining from a vote on a referendum that didn't fit with their 10-year timescale...

Please, let's get it over with.... again....
247

Sanny,

06/05/2008 12:34:21
259 Edward:
I would think that today the 40% rule would be a no-no. Apart form causing riots in Scotland it would be contrary to the European Council and the Right of Self Determination, They got a clip on the ear the last time and were forced into the Devolution agreement as least disagreeable option. Since then the Scots have found out about the McCrone report and all that follows from that.

It is now a racing certainty that Labour will lose Westminster at the next election. The Scots fear of another spell of Thatcherite politics together with the Sleazy reputation of the SLAB should ensure a large block of SNP in Westminster to protect Scottish interests. Unless Alex Salmond does something really silly he is on course for a Scotish parliament majority and a yes on the Referendum.
248

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 06/05/2008 12:36:35
This story just keeps getting better and better for us Nat's.

Apart from last nights revelations that some Labour MP's and MSP's were spitting their dummys at the fact that they weren't consulted before Wendy's announcement, there is the story in todays Record which alledges that Wendy first mentioned the idea last year in some document, however this is very carefull reporting for the record does not say the document was shown to them, no, it says it was revealed to them, which I take it means, they were only told about it, because at the top of the same page is a picture of what the Record says the document COULD have looked like, but no actual picture.

Is Wendy getting herself involved in yet another cover-up?

BTW, if there are any unionists out there who wan't to pour scorn on this idea, then they should remember they can't have it both ways, for according to the same paper,(if the story should be true), then even Wendy says (in the document), that Alex Salmond would take advantage of three and a half years of SNP engineered constitutional debate (her word?), and having established himself and his party as a credible party practised in government, So even she would have admitted that even last year, she knew that the SNP were going to be an effective and efficient government.




249

Union is Best,

06/05/2008 12:37:52
272. Well said. Labour fought the Scottish election saying they would oppose a referendum. The SNP fought the Scottish election saying they would hold one in 2010. Wendy said a "a referendum is not an issue for any serious thinking politician".

Clearly Labour are consistent and are not changing what they put to the people and if they are it is based on conviction.
250

Niadh,

Edinburgh 06/05/2008 12:38:24
I am surprised no one else has shot down Bendy Wendy for totally transparent political planning.
So for those who cannot see it i'll lay it out nice and simple.

Support for the SNP and the possibility of Independence has been growing since they came to power.
Labour(and probably others) are scared of this and what it might mean for their futures if the SNP are too successful.

In order to derail the SNP and independence Wendy et al call a vote earlier than the SNP want and before the support for the independence stance grows too high.

When early vote fails Labour et al. force a bill/position through that the original referendum in 2010 will be canned as there is obviously no support for it.

Labour scores points against SNP. SNP loses face.
251

Rob,

Moray 06/05/2008 12:38:51
272 - aw come on now!You have to be total looney to even think that never mind believe it. You might not like her or them, but this time McLabour have played the card. If the door is so wide open to independence on this, how's about you and your chums walking through it!!

It's ok - I know your answer.
252

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

06/05/2008 12:39:50
#268 There is a thin line between parochialism and looking after one's national and cultural interests. Only rarely has the Scottish Parliament acted parochially in my opinion - and often it has been parochialism within Scotland not parochialism with regards its relationship to England and the rest of the UK.

As for independence being seen as a cure-all for poverty, crime, ill-health and poor infrastructure - I'd disagree. The issue is not necessarily about where decisions are taken but who takes the decisions. If we switch to an independent Scotland with the same faces running the political parties and the continuance of the same structures within Scotland - I for one would find that a depressing thought.

Switching power from one bunch of numpties at Westminster to another bunch of numpties at Holyrood would have no effect without a fundamental change in attitude by our politicians.
253

kimba,

06/05/2008 12:39:57
281. If the scots have half a brain I think they will think twice before emulating the slovaks.
254

Calum Crubag,

06/05/2008 12:40:09
#275 Alfred. Guten tag... if you can't take the SNP seriously why are you here attacking them. Seems like you've been here since midnight judging by your earlier posts!

You're right though. Don't take them seriously. Don't debate them. In fact, imagine they don't exist and all will be just fine.
255

Rob,

Moray 06/05/2008 12:40:37
Sorry - 285 was for Jackie at 281
256

Calum Crubag,

06/05/2008 12:41:58
Though, they can't be taken seriously, the SNP are nevertheless calling the shots. Wendy is caught between orders from London and dancing to Salmond's tune.
257

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

06/05/2008 12:42:01
"273 Joe Neilson,Edinburgh 06/05/2008 12:27:28
Wendy's position is based on tactics there is no principle."

And if the SNP vote against a Referendum Bill they will face the same accusation.

Let's be honest - politicans of all colour base there decsions on tactics - that's why they are politicians.
258

European Scot,

06/05/2008 12:43:34
To all those Unionist posters who seem to be in such a hurry to have a referendum, with words like now, immediately, at this moment, should we perhaps add, before it's too late ?
Alex Salmond made it quite clear that he would call for a referendum in 2010.
Would it be reasonable to expect the Scottish Electorate to form an opinion of the SNP after just one year in office, compared with Labour's many ?
Is that a fair comparison ?
The Labour party have certainly had more than enough time, to give the Scottish electorate a taste of what they are capable of.
The SNP led government should be allowed to run its course, and then be judged on its three year performance in 2010, along with a referendum on Independence.
Wendy is now trying to rush through a referendum, having steadfastly refused one, in an opportunistic throw of a dice, she hopes is still loaded in the Union's favour.
An act of desperation, in an environment of Labour's, and her personal meltdown.
On this occasion, let's try playing the game straight, and attempt to get an honest result, based on fair comparisons.
Desperate times for the Labour party, and desperate reactions coming from it.
In the meantime, steady as she goes from the SNP, with a vote on Independence, as promised, in 2010.
259

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

06/05/2008 12:43:50
#279 You are of course assuming they will vote for it on such a short timescale - I personally don't think the Nats are that stupid.

They will abstain.
260

Rob,

Moray 06/05/2008 12:45:38
292; European Scot. Which roughly translated means
" we would lose right now"
261

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 06/05/2008 12:46:14
Weny Alexander's sudden conversion to a referendum is a vaery cunning idea,since it indicates confused thinking and lacks credability.It is a bit like a flat earth believer,saying that the world is now round.Her alleged conversion to referendums is to be welcomed,but it does raise the following questions:

1)When did she change her mind and has she consulted her Liberal and Conservative allies?

2)Are her allies likely to be supportive in forcing an earlier referendum?

3) If not,what are her other options and chances of success?

4)How much support does she have in the Labour party for her proposal?

5) Why is she oppossed to a longer period of consultation with an electorate (who need information) before holding a referendum?

6) Since surveys show a lot of support for greater powers (a concept not yet defined) why does she not wait until Calman reports,and why does she not want this included in a referendum?

These are questions that demand answers from Wendy Alexander. Personally I would welcome a referendum since we need to test the water.
262

Truely English,

06/05/2008 12:47:28
I started listening to Radio Scotland over the Internet a number of weeks ago to find out how the Scottish political situation pans out in Scotland and it is refreshing in many ways. Lots of very parochial items but what would one expect.
263

kimba,

06/05/2008 12:47:31
Independence is a non starter,and the nats know it,so,come on snp call your referendum what are you waiting for!
264

kimba,

06/05/2008 12:51:06
292. Salmond can't have his cake and eat it,if he wants a referendum then he should call one NOW!
265

Linda,

Edinburgh 06/05/2008 12:52:26
~ 287 Kimba

Slovaks I know think Independence is wonderful and the economy is one of the fastest growing in Europe.
266

walter,

06/05/2008 12:53:45
279
DON't you think that part of what they were doing all along was to force Labour into doing exactly this?

No it is the last thing they expected or wanted.

The SNP were on a win win situation. If Labour refuse the referendum, the SNP use this as a platform for the next election. If Labour agree to the referendum,. the SNP get exactly what they and all pro-independistas want - a shot at securing the very thing we all desire.

Exactly they were in a win win situation if they got to put the bill forward at a time of their choosing but they are not getting to put if forward at that time which means they are no longer in that win win situation.
I would suggest they are in a lose lose situation, vote against the bill and they will lose all credibility, vote for the bill and they will be forced to hold the referendum in 2009 where the chances are they will lose and they will have to fight the general election and the Scottish election with out mentioning their very reason for existing.
267

kimba,

06/05/2008 12:53:48
299. Pity you haven't the guts to comment on my post at 277.
268

kimba,

06/05/2008 12:56:06
301. That's cr-p and you know it!
269

Alfred E. Neuman,

06/05/2008 12:56:36
What are you all wittering on about?

Salmond would love for Alexander to call for a referendum and he will willingly agree to it on her terms.

The referendum question is a lose-lose for Salmond at the moment. If he doesn't hold one he loses credibility, if he does hold one on his terms he will lose and the issue will be closed for another 30 years.

If Salmond and the SNP agree to one on Labours terms then they can keep credibility by huffing and puffing about this and that, when they lose, as they would've under their terms, they can (and will) claim that it was the this and that they were huffing and puffing about wot lost it.

Salmond and the SNP can then use that face saving excuse to promise to revisit the issue in 10 years. He has bought himself the chance to govern for longer without losing his credibility as a champion of independence.

We all Salmond preparing the way to delay and stall the referendum himself. It is the last thing he wants! If he is seen to not be for a quick referendum the SNP may splinter UKIP equivelents and single issue parties diluting his core vote.

Mark my words Alexander is making a big mistake. The best way to lay independence to rest for another generation is to give the SNP a referendum on their terms but without there psyops wording.
270

John PM,

Edinburgh 06/05/2008 12:56:53
The funniest thing about this is that the Lib Dems have been well shafted by Labour. Firstly they deny theirselves any chance of a new pro Scottish coalition with the SNP (it appears on the orders of Broon via Sir Ming) and paint themselves as ultra unionists leading to their vote dropping like a stone.

Then Labour suddenly decide "hey let's have a referendum on independence after all! We're no scared!" (Which I welcome incidentally, obviously.)

Also effectively Wendy is admitting that her commission won't come up with anything relevant at all (it won't so she's right there) so why bother waiting for it?

I guess Labour are panicking because the SNP are getting stuck into their core support, Salmond got a decent response from the STUC and they are now having discussions with the Church of Scotland via the national conversation.

In the meantime the Wendy commission has a rag tag bag of anti Scots (probably none of whom have any genuine desire for more powers for Scotland AT ALL).

Trying to push the SNP towards an early referendum might make logical sense, if Wendy could rely on her buddies in London to rig it for her, er, oops!

One Labour MP asked if Ms Alexander "was off her head", adding: "What is she thinking?"

A source close to Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister said: "We have no plans to initiate a referendum. If the Labour Party in Scotland wants to take a position, that's a matter for them."

Since the Lib Dems and Tories aren't going to do Labour any favours and since the SNP have already published their consultative referendum question, god knows what Wendy thinks they would do for a year with a referendum bill.

Anyway I'm well chuffed. The u's on this board are obviously sick as well, does it get much better!!!
271

Dr Egg,

1st Polling Booth on the Right 06/05/2008 12:57:23
Whoopee! I need a visit to my local polling station so that I can practice filling in that really difficult card thingy they give you. I made such an arts of it last time...
272

Publius,

London 06/05/2008 12:57:27
Preacher at revivalist meeting "Stand up all those who want to go to heaven." Everyone stands up except for one man. "Don't you want to go to heaven?" shouted the preacher. "No, not yet" said the man.

That's your SNP contributor this board. Now that the way is being cleared to a refernedum on independence, he's scared and running away.
273

Rob,

Moray 06/05/2008 12:58:51
299 No Jackie no! The SNP prosecution have been boring us to death with their case for years. We're told that this is what Scotland's wanted for years. Now they've got power - tick in box. They're also in the box seat - another tick. Just do it - everyone knows the issues and the alterantives. The defence has only just started having been alerted by the SNP victory. You'd beer get used to it.
274

kimba,

06/05/2008 12:59:31
301.Since the establishment of the Slovak Republic in January 1993, Slovakia continues the difficult transition from a centrally planned economy to a modern market economy (a reform slowed in the 1994-98 period due to the crony capitalism and other fiscal policies of Prime Minister Vladimír Meciar's government). While economic growth and other fundamentals improved steadily during Meciar's term, public and private debt and trade deficits soared, GET REAL!
275

European Scot,

06/05/2008 13:02:47
294 Rob

" Which roughly translated means
we would lose right now"

Truth is, right now, I really wouldn't put money on it either way.
However, if the SNP completes its full term in office, then keeps its promise of a referendum, is that so unreasonable ?
276

John PM,

06/05/2008 13:03:29
AEN: "Salmond would love for Alexander to call for a referendum and he will willingly agree to it on her terms."

Ha ha ha! No stop it, you're too funny. The idea the SNP will do Labour any favours.... Aye right! The SNP will hold their referendum after their national conversation with the people. That way we will have a proper debate with an informed audience.

Labour can then scaremonger to their hearts content about independence with their chums in the papers at the time of the actual referendum, but it won't wash.

Hope always wins over fear. If you U's need a few more kicks to get that message I'm sure the Scottish people will oblige.
277

kimba,

06/05/2008 13:05:04
312. Why wait! if salmond is so confident lets have it now.
278

Embra Don,

06/05/2008 13:05:18
253 Alfred, Strange that the deranged fellow you are quoting used the expression fantasist in his diatribe. Coincidence?
279

Edward,

06/05/2008 13:07:42
#280
Very much agree
butwho knows what goes through the minds of Brown and Alexander (Wendy and Douglas)
280

Alfred E. Neuman,

06/05/2008 13:08:15
315 Embra

Yes. Fantasist is a failry common word.

Must you talk to me and drag everything down to your banal bullcrap. As least spice up your posts with some mock indignation or a gag or something.

There is nothing worse than some ordinary dull comment from an disgustingly grey average intellect. You actually make me want to puke with your pseudo-holmes waffle that is nothing more normal someone using an common and shared language.

God, you make me sick with boredom at your sheer banality.
281

Busymale,

06/05/2008 13:08:41
Another u-turn by Bendy.

How can she accuse the SNP of running scared when they announced their timetable for a referendum donkies ago?

Is she freightened that to delay a vote might give the SNP time to prove to the Scottish people the Party has brought benefits? Is it because the Labour Party will be so discredited by that time that we all vote against whatever they stand for? Or is it because she'll be out of a job by then?

The Labour Party know their finished! Another 20 years in the wilderness will do them good.

Vote Scotland!
282

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/05/2008 13:09:22
#272 walter

Where you theory falls down is that Salmond has already conceded that now is not the right time to bring forward the bill. His manifesto is quite clear that he will move in 2010 and he is perfectly within his rights to stick to that timetable. In any case, I cannot envisage a scenario where Alexander would have the courage to present a private member's bill. This is all bluster and will back-fire on Labour as they will have alienated the Tories and the Libdems.
283

Embra Don,

06/05/2008 13:09:35
Can't wait to hear from Lord Foulkes on this one. Having formerly (and eloquently as usual) defended Vladimir's running of Hearts and Tony's Iraq war, he assured us that the Scottish Parliament does not have the power to hold a referendum. I almost feel sorry for him (ok I don't really)
284

acanthus,

06/05/2008 13:10:31
Rob,
Take a breath. You will have to wait until 2010 just like the rest of us lol
You are acting a bit like 'Mental Wendy' but seem a bit more frantic. Let's see how the SNP do in power for a few years and then let the people decide, it's what they said they would do from the start!
285

kimba,

06/05/2008 13:14:09
319 I bet is isn't! salmond is a coward of the firt order.
286

Alfred E. Neuman,

06/05/2008 13:14:56
313 John PM

I suspect you're wrong. If the SNP get a referendum on their terms they will lose, any referendum will lose.

What Salmond doesn't want is to have the issue closed for the rest of his professional life. It's as much about his ego than anything else, look at the way he flits between Westminster, London and Scotland depending on which fair-weather friend offers him the best personal terms.

Knowing this, I suspect Salmond wants away to appease the hard-core nat-nutter with an early referendum and preserve an excuse to revisit with his professional career.

The only acceptable way for him to do this is if he can be seen to have his "hand forced" then he can continue to keep up appearances with the hard-core nutters and have an excuse to waste Scotland's evening again in only a few years.

You don't accept that the worst case (and likely) scenario for the SNP is that they get exactly what they want when they are pretending to want it? If they lost that vote it would destroy them.

No more trouble making, no more discussing the polls we have our answer, no more talk of it for a generation!

The SNP want an excuse to govern Scotland within the Union for a good number of years while maintaining the pretence that they want independence now.
287

acanthus,

06/05/2008 13:17:37
317,Alfred the Dragon
Fantasist is certainly a common word in your posts and i also notice that you mispell 'fairly' with 'failry' this time which again is very close to you reverting to your magic, fantasy and fairies again (post 166).
What is going on in your 'dungeons and dragons' world..or have you been reading too much Tolkien again?
288

Jimmy the Pie,

06/05/2008 13:17:41
Is it a full moon???

Rob/Highland Pride/Alfie all seem to be in foaming/frothing at the mooth mode.

Best weekend's politics in a long time. Just need his Lardship to pass comment (assuming he is conscious) and someone to ask Our Dear Leader his thoughts.

Oh happy days
289

Rob,

Moray 06/05/2008 13:17:42
312 No, that's not unreasonable at all, but I consider it to be the minimum. The point is that the window is open to support the motion - and that is unlikely to last for long: if you really believe in this, and it is clearly the SNP's reason for being, you should grab it. Even the opposition parties in Scotland understand managing a minority government.

Acanthus 321; so the timetable is as whenever. How's about 2025 as alternative date - should have plenty of track record by then.

But I am taking your advice - the links beckons once more!




290

European Scot,

06/05/2008 13:18:26
314 Kimba

"Why wait! if salmond is so confident lets have it now"

Why should he rush into a referendum, because a politician of Wendy Alexanders calibre says so ?
With her track record and ratings, she's not someone I would want to follow.
If you say you are going to do something, then you stick by it.
That's why Alex Salmond should continue along his present course.
You may admire the spinning Wendy, but I certainly don't.
291

Luke Skywalker,

United Kingdom 06/05/2008 13:20:23
314 Why wait? Because Salmond is waiting until the English National Party aka Conservatives is returned to power in England then there is a nationalist government in both camps. That will cause the mutual extermination of the UK. Can someone please tell me what happens then. I assume the European Community will swallow up Scotland and English people will have to change their currency at the border. It beggars belief that anybody is even thinking about the demise of the UK. I concede that what we have is pretty dismal at the moment but disintegration would be even worse.
292

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 06/05/2008 13:22:40
" 296
Truely English,
06/05/2008 12:47:28
I started listening to Radio Scotland over the Internet a number of weeks ago to find out how the Scottish political situation pans out in Scotland and it is refreshing in many ways. Lots of very parochial items but what would one expect."

That is the BBC Radio Scotland that emanates from parochial London towing the english colonial line, what what ?



There are none so blind as will not see.


293

acanthus,

06/05/2008 13:23:14
Alf,
You are nuts. You really are a absolute gem for posting such comments

Knowing this, I suspect Salmond wants away to appease the hard-core nat-nutter with an early referendum and preserve an excuse to revisit with his professional career.

This is just such laughable logic that i need to sit down with a cup of coffee and stare at the sky for a while and wonder how your brain manages to keep the electricity flowing!
294

kimba,

06/05/2008 13:24:41
327. This has NOTHING to do with what wendy says or doesen't say,if salmond is so confident why wait,but that's the thing isn't it salmond is not confident at all!
295

Alfred E. Neuman,

06/05/2008 13:25:45
324 Acanthus

You are an idiot.

Doing word associations with "fantasy" is not the same as doing them with "fantasist". The subtle difference too much for your pea-brain.

You really are just a Walter Mitty type with your deranged pretences at understanding how to draw a parrallel.
296

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 06/05/2008 13:25:59
328
The english already have a Parliament, it's called Westminster.

Look at the mess they have made of all the respective colonies, which, incidentally, includes Britain.
297

Stirling Sentinel,

Stirling 06/05/2008 13:26:16
Well done Johnny G at 243. I couldn't have summarised it better myself. Jackie Priest at 268 is a bit of a comic, (a failed one I am afraid.) He says he has lived in a lot of European countries and goes on to moan about the crime/ill health/alchoholism etc in Scotland. Doesn't this prove that Scotland is too immature to even think about independence? I see England more in the role of a "carer"until Scotland grows up and behaves like an adult West European country and less of a basket case.
298

acanthus,

06/05/2008 13:26:17
Rob,
The timetable is 2010 as has been stated..how many times have you to be told!!! Quite simple really! i will say it again 2010..try and bookmark it!
299

kimba,

06/05/2008 13:28:53
328.WRONG,David william donald cameron, has already said he will do everything in his power to preserve the union,salmond is batting on the wrong wicket!
300

Alfred E. Neuman,

06/05/2008 13:30:40
330 Acanthus

I really would like to highlight what a moron you are.

I understand you disagree with my analysis. But the facts do suggest this is the SNP's most favourable strategy.

Losing an honest referendum on their terms with them in power as the government would be their worst cast scenerio. This issue would become closed.

Salmond and the SNP know that there is not enough support for independence at present, there strategy is to govern for as long as possible to increase their support.

But, there are nutter like yourself and others on here who would freak out if Salmond didn't have the independence question now.

He's an astute politician and will undoubtedly find a way to lose the independence question while maintaining face and find an excuse to keep the question open.

The only way is to have the referendum on someone else's terms.

Do you honestly believe Scotland would vote yes in 2010? Honestly now, using facts... And what do you think the ramifications of having the issue closed for 30 years are for the SNP?
301

kimba,

06/05/2008 13:32:18
335. Bet the referendum comes before then,if at all.
302

acanthus,

06/05/2008 13:33:00
Alf,
Here is a link to a Thesaurus where you can find lots of words to link together and try and expand you rather undeveloped and malnourished vocabulary. Deranged you will find under d..a letter which follows c.
It also has an interactive map so you can look at all the prettty pictures:

http://www.visualthesaurus.com/
303

Embra Don,

06/05/2008 13:35:34
323
Alfred E. Neuman,
Alf have you taken your medication today?
304

European Scot,

06/05/2008 13:36:37
326 Rob

Alex Salmond has proved himself to be a capable politician, and the SNP have shown levels of competence that have surprised many people.
It was the judgement of the SNP to target 2010 as the time to have a referendum.
That was to give the Scottish Electorate a reasonable amount of time, to make judgements of the SNP's performance in office.
The fact that a failing Labour leader in Scotland is desperately trying to make capital out of the timing of this referendum, by turning against everything she has said, and stood for, shouldn't put the SNP off its original course.
A spinning Wendy is bad enough, I wouldn't want to see Alex doing the same !
305

Boggle fey the Bog,

06/05/2008 13:37:02
#213 & 215 Rob moray,

Essentially a well thought out, if somewhat overtly onionist/new labour/owld torie spin to it.

A referendum on Independence is part of the stated policies of the present Government in Scotland, they have 'time scaled' that referendum to be scheduled for 2010, if they can get their Bill passed by the Scottish Parliament.

We have however, seen since Nu Labour/Owld torie so ignominiously lost power last year all the Unionist parties being vehemently against any referendum on Independence.

But no wait EPIPHANY Ms Alexander has seen the light, swears she is not afraid of the Scottish electorate and now wants a Referendum (on her terms), within the next 12 months, so this is now the New Unionist cudgel, to beat the Scottish people into submission.

Let's face it whenever a referendum is held it will always be a close run thing.

Some of the people of Scotland, whether rightly or wrongly, believe that the real world is 'to frightening a place to be on our own in', whereas others, like myself and many more are heartily sickened by the way our country has been treated by the parliament in Westminster for over 300 years, and feel total separation is the only way.

I personally feel Wendy's 'conversion' is just a rouse by a politically and morally bankrupt individual, who is trying to cling on to her increasingly untenable position and is Grandstanding on a scale that we haven't seen the likes of since the demise of Uncle Joe, in the Soviet Union.

As I have stated previously, her plan is a non runner, as Gordo can't give Scotland a referendum, without giving the whole of the UK a referendum on the Lisboa Treaty. End of.

Wee Windy's shot herself through her gob again. It's Time, this sad excuse for a Leader of a once great Socialist party and all her henchmen and woman are dispatched to the history books.
306

acanthus,

06/05/2008 13:38:00
Alf,

Yes you are right about the support, i am not disagreeing with you and of course Salmond will use the time to convince people.
But i think the Unionist and the dithering Labour vote is more fragile than you suppose and there is just no knowing how the Scots will vote sometimes.
Honestly? I think in 2010 it would be a close vote, probably a very close vote.
307

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/05/2008 13:39:00
#322 kimba

You bet what isn't? The lunatic fringe has arrived I see!
308

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/05/2008 13:40:41
#323 alf

So now you are saying that the SNP don't really want independence?!?!
309

Shave,

Edinburgh 06/05/2008 13:42:36
#328 Luke Skywalker
You reckon The Conservative and Unionist Party are Nationalists? Oh dear.
310

acanthus,

06/05/2008 13:43:14
I just wish that Unionists would stop this blind 'we must preserve the Union at any cost' nonsense. If you want the Union to be preserved because you think Scotland will be worse off then fine, that is an economic arguement that you can make. But if the evidence is that Scotland will be better off and that the prosperity of the country and the people is suffering because of it's attachment to the Uk then where would you stand?
311

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/05/2008 13:44:18
#336 kimba

You are so politically naive if you really take Cameron's position at face value. No need for you to respond!
312

Alfred E. Neuman,

06/05/2008 13:45:57
346 Connaughtboy

Because you are an idiot with a predilication for being a deranged fantasist smart-erse you are missing the point.

The SNP want independence as soon as possbile.

You cannot have a referendum every week until you get the answer you want.

Salmond and co must therefore ensure the question stays open.

The ONLY way to do that is to have some half-hearted excuse to revisit the issue in 5 or 10 years.

Best excuse would be the last one was done under a hung-government led by Labour, we deserve another now that we are still government and so on.

Losing a question in 2010 is inevitable. Finding an excuse to keep the question of independence open after that difficult.

That's why I think that bone-head Alexander is stupid to start muddying the waters. The SNP will seize that as their chance to blame and confuse Scotland's real feeling of rejecting indepedence with Alexander's politicking.
313

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/05/2008 13:46:07
#338 alf said:

"Salmond and the SNP know that there is not enough support for independence at present, there strategy is to govern for as long as possible to increase their support."

Yes. And you point is?????
314

kimba,

06/05/2008 13:46:46
342. Are you for real!ELDERLY CARE IS ABOUT TO HIT THE BUFFER,FREE PRESCIPTION FOR ALL IS BEING LOOKED AT AGAIN,AND HIS ALTERNATIVE TO THE COUNCIL TAX LOOKS LIKE A NON STARTER! judgment you say, in 2 years time scotlands infrastructure will be non existant if salmond is allowed to continue.
315

Graeme2,

Aberdeen 06/05/2008 13:46:53
42, Raygn

Labour are placing a bet on the psychology front. "How do cults (Labour is a cult? The Union is a form of Cult?) hold on to their disciples? Why do Jesuit priests submit to a lifetime of strict authority?"
Long-term conditioning takes place (300 years of Unionism) and shows that the indoctrination methods of disparate institutions (Army,Navy, Government, Labour) are surprisingly similar and effective. Recruits to the cult are isolated (disinherited from their land , language and culture. Sounds very familure?) and worked to exhaustion (Empire building). Confused and frightened, they readily submit to a leader, be it guru, fuhrer or, in our case the British Labour Party and their puppets.

Alex and Co are busy working against 300 years of indoctrination. Wee Wendy has seen the effects and feels very frightened.
316

European Scot,

06/05/2008 13:48:11
331 Kimba

" This has NOTHING to do with what wendy says or doesen't say,if salmond is so confident why wait,but that's the thing isn't it salmond is not confident at all!"

Of all the politicians in Scotland, Alex Salmond is surely one of the most confident.
He and his party set out what they were going to do, and they will stick by it.
A referendum in 2010, as promised.
It's much better when people keep to their word.
Isn't that so, Wendy ?
317

Embra Don,

06/05/2008 13:52:58
#336 kimba
You think Cameron runs the Conservative party? Does Lord Wheatcroft know?
318

kimba,

06/05/2008 13:53:00
349. Oh but there is,you seem to be so full of sh-t it's escaping from your mouth in the form of verbal diarrhoea!
319

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

06/05/2008 13:54:03
#338 Losing a referendum on terms not controlled by the SNP gives them an excuse to come back and re-visit the question.

The easist way for Alexander to avoid that would be to have exactly the same referendum as proposed by the Nats with the exception of the date.

I cannot see how they can argue that it's not fair if they have been telling us all these years that there should be a referendum. It's not as if this is something new that has been sprung on the Scottish electorate.
320

acanthus,

06/05/2008 13:55:41
I doubt very much that Wendy will be in place in 2010 anyway. It's a disgrace how people here can be defending a woman who clearly has some 'issues' with honesty, is unreliable, does not keep her word, contradicts herself and backstabs her best mate Gordon..and yet everyone expects Alex Salmond to follow her demands..get wise people! She is a disgrace and so are those who are backing her up!
321

kimba,

06/05/2008 13:55:51
355. Only because he thinks he will stand a better chance then,LOL,he won't!!
322

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 06/05/2008 13:56:53
#342 European Scot
What on earth does severance have to do with the SNP's performance? You are assuming that Scotland would become a one-party state?
323

Tris,

Dundee 06/05/2008 13:58:46


Interesting that the Labour government of the 1970s had to include dead people to get the result they wanted. If you're dead we will assume you went to the polling station and voted against.... sounds like their logic.

If Wendy brings a bill forward for a referendum in the next 12 months (ie before Alex does any more good and becomes even more popular), she will need to get Annabel and Nicol to support her. Now, just because her new name is U-Bends Are Us, doesn't mean that Annabel and Nicol will go for it. If they do, they are gonna look like they are really just adjuncts to the Labour Party....

So how is it gonna get through?

I'm thinking that it will be called when Mr Salmond decides, and U-Bendy will have to vote for it, or lose even more credibility. (Is that possible?)

Alternatively, Brown will have to introduce the legislation in London and go against the wishes of the elected parliament in Edinburgh.

Finally, I wonder if there is any point at all in the commission of peers, knights and professors now wasting Scottish taxpayers' money to discuss something that will be decided by referendum. Shouldn't this expensive waste of money be ditched NOW, and the money spent on, I don't know, vulnerable 2 year olds?
324

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

06/05/2008 13:59:53
#350 That's my worry too - any step by Alexander to rig the vote is bound to be used as an excuse to come back to the question.
325

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/05/2008 14:01:22
#350 Alf

You really are getting you knickers in a twist today aren't you.

First in #323 you say:

"The SNP want an excuse to govern Scotland within the Union for a good number of years while maintaining the pretence that they want independence now."

Then in #350 you contadict youself by saying:

"The SNP want independence as soon as possbile."

Which is it?
326

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/05/2008 14:03:54
#357 kimba

You are an ill-educated yob with a foul mouth.
327

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 06/05/2008 14:04:20
Why are there unionists on here slevering for a referendum and then saying that Alex Salmond should have one, as was pointed out in this very paper only last night, the Scottish parliament could only produce a consultitive referendum unless Westminster gave it the powers to do other wise, for some strange reason Westminster does not seem to be in hurry to do this.

Westminster of course can have a referndum on the same issue, but for some even stranger reason they seem to be in even less of a hurry to do that.

So could some of you unionists please tell us why that should be the case when according to Wendy and the Daily record she first started bleating about this last august?

Whilst your at it could some of you merchants of doom and gloom comment on the supposed fact that at the same time Wendy said that, 'It is NOT THAT SCOTLAND CAN'T GO IT ALONE, it is simply that we do not believe that is in the best interests of the Scottish people?

You might also like to comment on the fact that if this were true, why was the fact that in her opinion Scotland can go it alone, not imparted to the people of Scotland?
328

kimba,

06/05/2008 14:07:40
365. If you're big enough to give it, then you're big enough to take it! with the exception of the cowardly members of the SNP!
329

,

06/05/2008 14:08:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
330

kimba,

06/05/2008 14:14:06
370.What you mean is: we will continue this until the vote goes our way,what a sad bunch of individuals the nats are!
331

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

06/05/2008 14:15:46
#370 Revisiting the question is not a problem - but revisiting after a short gap is only going to lead to a series of referenda.

I want a clear unambiguous answer - one that cannot be disregarded by either unionists or nationalists.
332

kimba,

06/05/2008 14:16:49
372. Exactly.
333

Sanny,

Upwey 06/05/2008 14:16:57
300 kimba, Explain why!

A year ago Wendy and the labour party said absolutely no to a referendum. When Salmond called for a “National Conversation” Wendy set an alternative “Commission” to look at all the variation EXCEPT Independence!

Whereas Alex Salmond and the SNP said, if they were successful in the election, they would spend a parliament working to show how a Scottish Centric government would work. At the end of the parliament they would call for a referendum and be judged on their performance. They have not varied from that stance and continue to demonstrate a good government that is not directed by Westminster!

Whilst things have gone well for the SNP the Labour party has staggered from disaster to disaster. Now Wendy wants a damage limitation exercise by diverting attention away the Labour plummeting polls by shouting for the referendum to be brought forward.

Should the Tories in Westminster be allowed to call for the Westminster Election? No! That is Mr Brown’s prerogative just timing the call for a Referendum is Mr Salmond’s prerogative!!
334

kimba,

06/05/2008 14:23:27
374. Think brown will have no chose shortly,as for salmond,if he is so confidant why not now,but that's the rub,he will lose now,it makes little difference he will lose in 2010 too!
335

Sanny,

Upwey 06/05/2008 14:25:32
366 ochone, Sauchie
You seem to be totally unaware of International law which enshrines a nation’s right to Self Determination. Look closer at how the Devolution was brought about – That is recorded in the Scottish-UN Papers in the National Library and some are available on the Net. It was not Tony’s idea , though he claimed it. Devolution was forced on the Westminster Government by the Council of Europe on pain of sanctions. It landed first with John Major but his government was ousted before he had to take action therefore it rolled over to Blair who proceeded to make a virtue out of necessity whils all the time trying to sabotage the action.
336

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 06/05/2008 14:26:37
How many of you supporters of the dependent parties have contacted your MP demanding that a bill for a referendum should be placed before the house of commons?

You really should you know 'cause the leader of the Scottish Torys was on the lunch time news and she aint having it, as neither will the Lib-Dems, as Wendy full well knows, so it will have to be down to Westminster, not that Gordon will thank you of course, but if you really think it will get you somewhere, like I say, stop bleating here and start screaching at your MP and see how far you get.
337

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 06/05/2008 14:26:42
Wendy little tactical ploy to try and move up the date of the referendum will only delay the inevitable by 1 year.

Original Plan

Spring 2010 - Westminster Election Resulting in a Tory Government with almost no Scottish Representation.

Summer 2010 - SNP Introduces Referendum Bill expected to be defeated by The Unionist Axis.

Spring 2011 - Holyrood election with SNP Majority.

Summer 2011 - Referendum Bill Introduced and Passed by SNP Majority.

Fall 2011 - Referendum resulting in a Mandate to Negotiate Scotlands Independence.

Revised Plan

Summer 2008 - Wendy Introduces Referendum Bill.

Spring 2009 - Referendum narrowly defeated

Spring 2010 - Westminster election resulting in a Conservative Government with little if any representation from Scotland.

Spring 2011 - Holyrood Elections resulting in an SNP Majority.

Summer 2011 - Alex Salmond introduces his once in a generation referendum bill.

Spring 2012 - Referendum wins majority support for Independence.

Summer 2012 - Alex begins negotiating Scotlands departure from the Union with David Cameron

Alex promised that he would introduce a Bill for a referendum once in a generation.

If Wendy wants to bring her referendum beforehand thats up to her and her Unionists colleagues.

338

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

06/05/2008 14:27:54
#370 The sad thing is here that we are talking about hypothetical situations.

The truth we are unlikely to get a referendum in a year's time and we are unlikely to get a referendum in 2010.

My own gut feeling is that the only way we will get a referendum is if the SNP and their allies get a majority of MSPs (or MPs).

So nothing has really changed.
339

CLX,

Way Up North 06/05/2008 14:28:49
375, Kimba,
Can you read?
Have you not read the well set out answer in #374?

If the answer to both of the above is YES...then for God's sake SHUT UP....
340

brownlie,

06/05/2008 14:32:42
I do wish you nats would stop ridiculing Alfred E. and Kimba. They are acute observers of the scottish political situation and their restrained comments illustrate precisely the acceptable face of unionism.

Could you please refrain from pointing out that, whereas last week they were completely against a referendum, this week they are rabid enthusiasts.

Unionism - change is what we do!!
341

Sanny,

06/05/2008 14:34:34
375 kimba,
Are you being deliberately obtuse? Salmond and the SNP spelt out their intentions BEFORE the election. Their Plan was clear and a good one – even if the SLAB thought they wouldn’t last long enough to implement it – and the plan is still on course. If you were ever involved in project management you would be aware of the rule “Plan the Work – Then Work the Plan”. So why should the SNP deviate form a plan that is excellent and is performing as intended. It is those that would dearly like to see the plan derailed that are shouting for a change of direction and priorities. With Salmond in charge – IT WON’T HAPPEN!!
342

Alan B,

06/05/2008 14:35:54
#kimba

By waiting till autumn 2010 the snp will more likely have a sizable majority for independence. At the moment it would really be 50:50.

First of all brown will have fallen and the tories will be back in power. England likes its tory toffs scotland doesn't. Labour will have to justify why scotland should endure another 17yrs of tory rule running down scotland.

Secondly calman will have reported. Without it the peole do not know if it will be a dampt squib or dev max as discussed by the press. Was calman just a delaying tactic, or will it deliver real change. Being sensible about the union, if scotland is to have one, it should not be a union as any costs. An interesting thing on these treads is even the strongest supporter of the union want if altered with substantially more powers for the sp.

Thirdly it will allow the snp to build support for themselves. They have never been in government before and many did not think it would happen this time. It really lets them build creditbility.

Add to that the snp can actually try to change things. Suttle things like westminster refusing to allow the scottish exec to be called government even under labour have be swept away. They will build on this. No to nuclear. They will try to remove nuclear weapons from scotland. It also makes sense for some truer picture of scotland fiscal position. The snp are seemingly going to try to make a big deal about keeping some of scotland oil money. Recently the bbc report showed how badly scotland was served by broadcasting. The mcleish report will change that. Remember people like darling, reid and blair fought to stop broadcasting being devolved not for the good of scotland but becuase they felt it would help lead to independence.

To many things have been brushed under the carpet and they will slowly highlight these things building confidence in scotland that it can achieve when it frees itself from being an english poodle.




343

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 06/05/2008 14:38:50
Sanny, neither I nor any or Nat or any other right minded person could or should have problems with that principle, on the whole it's unionists who deride the idea, but the fact is that Wendy already knows this won't go before an Edinburgh parliament until such times as it can be passed and as the Lib-Dems and the Tory's are spitting feathers at this, it aint going to happen, but Westminster could do it, do you think they will?

Especially given that Wendy has given no indication of what kind of referendum she would prefer, should it have a 40% rule (remember that) etc, which is strange considering we are now being told she was going on about this last August. We both know that these things take time, especially at Westminster, as does she, I expect now that some hack will get her of the hook by saying that there is insufficant parliamentary time or some such nonsense, whilst in the background the rest of her party will tell her to get a grip or else!

344

acanthus,

06/05/2008 14:44:35
The plain truth is that all the Unionists know that if the momentum that has buit up over the past year carries on to 2010 then the vote will in all probability be very close, which is why they are all rabid for a vote now.
If they are confident that things will not change then why all the fuss? Because they say it is taking up too much time in Scottish Politics but as far as i am aware it was Wendy that want the referendum early and that is irresponsible as the SNP should be left alone to govern the country and then bring the referendum in 2010!
Isn't Brown spending all his time trying to figure a way of getting the electorate back (haha)..why is nobody shouting that he is misusing his time?
345

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/05/2008 14:44:53
#369 alf

You really have lost the plot. you can shout and curse as much as you like but you are contradicting yourself:

"...the PRETENCE that they want independence now..."

and

"The SNP want independence as soon as possbile"

Slam dunk!
346

Sanny,

06/05/2008 14:45:10
386 ochone
I suggest you read my previous comments on the legality Westminster interfering in the legitimate right of any nation to Self Determination.
I urge you to read the Papers I referred to, this will show the limited control that Westminster really has if a majority of Scots (or English) widh to leave the Union.
347

Ian Dubh,

Inverness 06/05/2008 14:45:54
I look forward to voting ! This should have happened years ago. Simple really,put it to the people,see what they decide. Ballets not bullets has been our way,let's keep it that way.
348

Sanny,

06/05/2008 14:46:09
ERROR Should read wish to leave the Union.
349

Doh,

06/05/2008 14:48:53

ITS NOT TIME
350

,

06/05/2008 14:50:12
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
351

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

06/05/2008 14:51:04
A lot of assumptions there Alan.

If I remember rightly were assuming Labour would win the next election only 7 months ago.

2 years to a General Election and an awful lot can happen.

I don't believe that any party has a particularly solid vote - the Tories level of support is somewhat illusory in my opinion.

MacMillan and Wilson's two great phrases really do apply right now. For those younger readers - Harold Macmillan was asked by a young journalist after a long dinner what can most easily steer a government off course, he answered:

"Events, dear boy. Events".

Harold Wilson famously said:

"A week is a long time in politics".

In short, politics is unpredictable.

352

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

06/05/2008 14:52:55
#387 Another "ifs and buts" comment.

If my auntie had balls she'd be my uncle . . .
353

acanthus,

06/05/2008 14:55:18
Alf,
You seem to be using the word 'astute' with regard to the SNP an awful lot. Salmond was so described as well. Methinks you are an admirer! Surely if you think they are so astute you agree they are the best people to run the country? By extension they must also be astute enough to make a success of independence...converted yourself really..congratulations!
354

Truely English,

06/05/2008 14:56:35
It is very important that all the British people vote with regard to Scottish Home Rule or Independence.
We are one people and for any division to take place everyone should have their say on the matter.

The Brittish people have always been united under the Union.
355

Michael Powell,

Edinburgh 06/05/2008 14:58:31
I believe Maddox and Peev got the title wrong; it should have stated: "Alexander wants pal in twelve months".

As you can see from the photo, Ms Alexander is trying to blow Scotland back to the Union.
356

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 06/05/2008 15:00:52
I understand what you said, but it's unionists you should be preaching to, I am attacking the hypocracy of Wendy Alexander and the stupidity of any one daft enough to believe her.

I also attack the hypocracy of those unionists who tout insults but never answer questions!

Like the one's on here.
357

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/05/2008 15:01:34
#394 Alf said:

"There is no doubt the SNP want independence as soon as possible.2

AGREED

"The astute amongst the SNP know how to give themselves the best chance of indepedence asap and that is to delay the referendum."

AGREED

"Whereas, the ill-informed idiots such as yourself think that we should have a referendum now."

WRONG on two counts. First, I am not an idiot. Second I do not want a referendum now. I want it in 2010.

"That is Salmond's dilema, he has to keep up this pretence of wanting indepence (ie referendum) now, but qiuetly knows he must wait."

WRONG. you are conflating "independence" with "referendum" and that is where your logic is failing.

"Perhaps you disagree with my analysis?"

No I don't.

"What is your opinion?"

My opinion is that you are resorting to personal insults because you are unable to engage in normal debate.




358

acanthus,

06/05/2008 15:02:57
399
Why should the English have a vote on Scottish Independence?

Scottish Home Rule?..at least get up to date with the termnology before you post...what a dinosaur..

In case you missed it we already had a vote and have a parliament without the English voting...dear oh dear!
359

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 06/05/2008 15:05:20
Is it just me or is there a definate waining in the collecte unionist support for Wendys cunning plan, they were far more enthusiastic yesterday, until the truth began to dawn and the facts became clearer.

Isin't reality grand?

360

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/05/2008 15:06:02
#399 TE

Legally, there is no reason why the Scots could not vote for independence without consulting the rest of the UK.
361

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 06/05/2008 15:08:16
#399, > We are one people and for any division to take place everyone should have their say on the matter.

The Brittish people have always been united under the Union. <

No we're not, and no we haven't!
362

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

06/05/2008 15:08:28
#400 Sit on the fence? Moi?


I don't think so - as you should know I have an opinion on everything!! The point I was making was that this all very speculative about what might happen - until it actually does then we will have to wait and see.

The first thing I want to wait and see is for Labour's own DETAILED proposals for a referendum. I have already stated that I don't want to see a rigged vote but one is fair and unambiguous.
363

HughB,

Edinburgh 06/05/2008 15:09:28
We all know what the British(English)way of doing things is: If a country doesn't toe the line, you have to either blockade/impose sanctions against it, or invade and take it over.

That's what happened to Scotland in the first place.

We have already seen various threats from Westminster about preventing us getting our money, if we don't behave and do what we are told. Gordon Brown also turned the screws on Scotland by imposing a tight budget on us. It can only get worse as we head towards independence.

Also note that Westminster sends forces to the other side of the world to defend its oil interests. What will happen when Scotland tries to gain control of its own assets? Who knows. There will probably have to be some form of international legal intervention to ensure that Scotland gets control of its own resources.

Talking about having a referendum, why not have one of those on line ones just now on one of the Scotsman pages. It would have to be their for months so that it gets a good average, and everybody would have to be honest and vote only once (I wonder of the unionists could resist the temptation).
364

Alan B,

06/05/2008 15:11:20
#409 Wendy has called for the snp to bring forward referendum proposals not that labour will bring forward their own.

The telegraph has it brown does not even support the idea.
365

Fairfax,

06/05/2008 15:17:16
Sanny (376): "Devolution was forced on the Westminster Government by the Council of Europe on pain of sanctions."

Much though I might wish the Council of Europe had teeth, why do you believe this? What sanctions do you believe they might have voted?
366

Alan B,

06/05/2008 15:18:29
Wendies uturn has made the lib dems position quite untenable. Putting aside dates for a moment.

It will be interesting once the dust settles what the tories and lib dems will do.

Refusing to give the people the choice is hardly democratic.

367

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 06/05/2008 15:20:49
I think everybody with any sense realized that the SNP's plan was to introduce a referendum bill in 2010 knowing that the other parties would vote against it.

It could then use that as a stick to beat the other parties with in the 2011 Holyrood Elections.

If,and this is a pretty big if, Wendy is able to get her Referendum bill through earlier and the result is a defeat for independance.

There is nothing to stop the SNP campaigning in 2011 that they will hold another referendum since Scotland has no meaningful representation in the Tory Government in Westminster.

The plan has always been that the referendum would take place after the next election when the SNP hopes to have the majority in Holyrood to get the Bill passed.

Wendys attempt to jump the gun changes nothing.
368

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

06/05/2008 15:21:05
#411 If she supports a referendum she needs to make the proposals not the other way round.
369

Fairfax,

06/05/2008 15:21:25
HugbB (410): "Also note that Westminster sends forces to the other side of the world to defend its oil interests."

There's an obvious implication that by "Westminster" you mean England (e.g. the "British (English)" reference at the start of your post). Why not simply say so? Why be so coy?
370

Truely English,

06/05/2008 15:22:38
The Union has been with us for a long time and Scottish and English people have done much to ensure this situation continues.
We are one people, using one language with the same cultural values, under the Monarchy of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
To break up such a Union would be unthinkable since we are all one people.
371

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

06/05/2008 15:23:09
#414 The Lib Dems are the party that looks to have come off worse here - their position looks increasingly untenable.
372

Fairfax,

06/05/2008 15:26:16
TruelyEnglish (418): "To break up such a Union would be unthinkable since we are all one people."

I really don't think there is any strong support for the Union in England, other than the inertia of the status quo. There are certainly strong elements of the Conservative Party in England which are, at least, resigned to the idea; there are even English nationalist elements which welcome it.
373

Bill, Middle England,

Middle England 06/05/2008 15:26:51
Politicians should recognise both the old Union format and current Devolution arangements are unacceptable to voters throughout the UK.

We need independence for each UK nation and co-operation as close allies with equal say on those few issues of genuine common interest, eg defence.

Westmeinster is, in any case, fast losing its relevance to Brussels. A touch ironic that a UK Govt dominated by Scots MPs is resented so much yet Brussels dictats are not, even though Scots MEPs and Scots voices have such little influence.

Perhaps then we can all then inhabit this island more happily and effectively.
374

European Scot,

06/05/2008 15:28:39
361 Tin Man

"What on earth does severance have to do with the SNP's performance? You are assuming that Scotland would become a one-party state?"

Interesting that you use the word severance
I prefer the word Independence.
It's a positive thing, and it's celebrated by all those countries that have achieved it. They don't give it up either.
Hopefully in an Independent Scotland, all of the major parties would initially work together, to make it a successful country.
In the actual promotion of Independence, the SNP is really the only game in town.
However, there are many individual supporters of Independence in all of the major parties, and at a referendum the achievement of that Independence will clearly depend on their support.
But of course if you're a Unionist....... ?
375

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/05/2008 15:29:52
#418 Truly English

I assume your post is written in jest!
376

Alan B,

06/05/2008 15:29:56
#The Federalist

I think the lib dems have been very badly lead. Of all the unionist parties they have by far the best message on the constitution. Unfortunately for them Nicol Stephen is to the lib dems what john major was to the tories or swinney was to the snp leadership. Capable but does not have leadership ability.

The lib dems would have been far better making a deal with the snp, problem was they did not really have the numbers to forse a coalition deal. They should have argeed a route to more powers with some sort of fudge about a referendum in the 2nd parliament which they might not even support. Unfortunately they let campbell veto any argeement.

The steel commission would have been a good step forward for scotland. Though not enough for my taste.

377

Alan B,

06/