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All Scotland's trains to get Saltire livery



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Published Date: 01 August 2008
SCOTLAND'S trains are to be rebranded with a permanent Saltire livery, The Scotsman can reveal. The "ScotRail – Scotland's Railway" branding will give the network its first-ever uniform look, sweeping away different colour schemes used in the east and west.
The move by Transport Scotland, the Scottish Government agency that is answerable to ministers, will be carried out during routine repainting to avoid extra costs.

Stations will also be overhauled, using a dark blue colour scheme and blue signs similar to those at Edinburgh Waverley and Glasgow Central.

However, the rebranding brought accusations that the SNP government was using the Saltire for "independence by creep". It has already been employed in a range of Scottish Government initiatives, such as Healthier Scotland and Safer Scotland.

Transport Scotland, whose own logo was inspired by the Saltire, stressed work on the new train design had started before the SNP came to power last year.

But the Labour MSP Lord George Foulkes said: "This is all part of the SNP's independence by creep.

"We saw this with the census question on whether people were Scottish or British, and rebranding the Scottish Executive as the Scottish Government.

"They know they can't have a straight fight on it because they would lose hands down, so they try to brainwash people into independence instead with a strategy of incremental changes."

A Labour spokesman added: "This is typical of the SNP. People care about whether their train runs on time, not what colour it is painted. Repainting the rolling stock will be a huge waste of money.

"We have to ask whether the SNP is getting a government agency to use the Saltire for their own nationalistic aims, rather than for simple patriotic pride in Scotland, which we all share."

But the Conservatives applauded the plan.

A spokesman said: "We welcome this move, because it helps to reclaim the nation's flag from the narrow nationalism represented by the SNP.

"The Saltire and the Lion Rampant are for all of Scotland, not just people who want independence," he said.

"It is similar to the Union Jack being reclaimed from the BNP as a sign of patriotism, not nationalism."

Passenger watchdogs said the Saltire livery would reduce confusion and save money in the long term.

Robert Samson, the Scotland manager for Passenger Focus, said: "We can see value in not changing the branding every time the train operator changes.

"It will also help bring uniformity, because there is a mishmash of First ScotRail and Strathclyde Passenger Transport (SPT] liveries at present, and different signs all over the place at stations.

"The new livery gives Scotland's railways a national identity without being Nationalist."

Transport Scotland said the rebranding aimed to provide the country's railways with a livery that will not change each time a new company takes over.

The planned revamp is also to emphasise that the network is largely funded by taxpayers, rather than the private sector.

Gary Bogan, the head of franchise futures for Transport Scotland, said: "The current range of train liveries creates confusion in the minds of passengers about whose railway it is, and who is paying for it. It does not create a unified brand image.

"Changes in the franchise do not coincide with when we need to repaint trains. We aim to create a brand which is independent of the franchisee.

"We want people to make the same connection as red buses have with London and yellow buses have with schools."

However, the move will mean yet another repaint for the train fleet, the last of which was rebranded in the current First ScotRail livery only last month.

The new look is due to be launched next month to mark the 25th anniversary of the ScotRail name being coined by British Rail.

The "First" name on trains will be reduced in size and prominence, so it can be more easily replaced if another company takes over when the franchise ends in 2014. The £2 billion cost of the Aberdeen-based FirstGroup's current ten-year franchise to run trains is the Scottish Government's largest contract.

Yesterday, First ScotRail said it was happy that it would remain readily identifiable as the train operator as part of the rebranding.

Transport Scotland said the new ScotRail version of the Saltire had taken inspiration from the former British Rail's iconic double-arrow logo, which is still used as a symbol for stations.

The Saltire livery – which will also be extended to train interiors – will cover 260 trains across the country.

At present, trains in much of Scotland are painted in First's corporate blue, magenta and white livery.

The last two trains were overhauled with the new colours last month, replacing the ScotRail livery from the previous franchise four years ago.

However, most of First ScotRail's trains in Strathclyde, which carry two-thirds of the country's rail passengers, are still in carmine and cream – known as "blood and custard".

These are the colours of the former SPT, which had a controlling interest in ScotRail until two years ago.

Strathclyde Partnership for Transport, its successor body, has a much reduced role in the railways. However, the colour scheme still adorns many stations, along with "SPT Rail" signs on platforms.

The rebranding of Strathclyde's trains and buses has been controversial in the past, with the region's sectarian divisions attributing deeper meanings to the colours used.

In the 1960s, the old Glasgow Corporation revealed new green, white and gold double-deckers, shades with Irish Republican connotations. Then, with the arrival of SPT in the 1970s, the vehicles were painted orange – although the shade was officially "Strathclyde Red".


The full article contains 940 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 01 August 2008 8:16 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

AM2,

Scotland,UK 31/07/2008 22:42:31
Yes, the SNP’s cynical “gradualist” agenda will have been at work here. It’s rarely far below the surface.

That said, from what I can see it’s a great looking livery.

But moreover, the Tory spokesman’s comment is absolutely spot on. The SNP’s tactic will backfire. Any attempts to misappropriate either the Union Flag or the Saltire for narrow nationalistic purposes can never work, simply because our flags have such broad appeal that they’ll always be reclaimed by the majority.

As Annabel Goldie said last December: “Rejecting independence is not anti-Scottish or unpatriotic; it is quite simply wanting the best for our country. I say clearly to Alex Salmond … that the Scottish National Party does not have the monopoly on Scottish patriotism. It is a proud and deep emotion, shared by millions of people outwith the Scottish National Party. Our saltire and the lion rampant are the symbols of our nation, not the badges of nationalism.”
2

Annoyed with the SNP,

01/08/2008 00:02:58
Oh great. Ignore all manefesto promises on prescriptions, police and student debt. Dump responsibility for health, crime and education.

But paint the trains, buy new stationery for holyrood with a 100k sign and have an Islamfest.

Boy oh boy, the SNP really are a mickey mouse government of toy town.

Let's paint our trainset and put pretty signs up.
3

Jimmy Le Pie,

01/08/2008 00:04:43
What a surprise at who posted at #1

Would you rather have the Northern Irish flag on Scottish trains???

Sad, oh so sad.
4

,

01/08/2008 00:05:48
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5

Rufus T. Firefly,

01/08/2008 00:05:51
Yes what a great use of public funds. Why waste money on an Islamfest when we can waste it on trains?
6

,

01/08/2008 00:08:19
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7

Annoyed with the SNP,

01/08/2008 00:10:08
5 Firefly

Scotland under the new optimism of the SNP can find the money to waste on both things. (While finding their health, crime, education promiss unaffordable.)

Labour's mantra: The money's there so let's waste it.

SNP's mantra: The money's there so let's waste it.


We will have to spend cash painting them again when the SNP get kicked out. It's a form of grafiti. Painting slogan's and plitical messages in public infrastructure when you should be really be working for the people.
8

Annoyed with the SNP,

01/08/2008 00:11:39
6 Alberto

Labour are trouble, I agree.

But painting a train set. Can you explain how the SNP's paint job on their toys will help fuel poverty, cut crime, help students or the ill?

The SNP are the same as Labour. Willing to lie for power and squander our cash on pet projects they never told us about.
9

Jimmy Le Pie,

01/08/2008 00:14:32
Rufus and Annoyed

Are you the same troll?
10

South Gyle Prisoner,

Edinburgh 01/08/2008 00:17:11
Trains tend to get a repaint every 3 to 5 years anyway so as part of the planned maintenance.

So the paint to be used will be different from that already on them. The new paint would cost the same whether to replace it like for like or the new scheme. Get a grip on reality.
11

Shave,

Edinburgh 01/08/2008 00:18:34
"The new livery gives Scotland's railways a national identity without being Nationalist."
..and it looks fine
12

,

01/08/2008 00:18:43
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13

,

01/08/2008 00:20:24
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14

Darien,

Panama 01/08/2008 00:20:29
What have all you British Nationalists (aka Unionistas) got against the Saltire? Racist or what! Get used to it.
15

Fifi la Bonbon,

01/08/2008 00:21:17
Hoots, mon.
16

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 01/08/2008 00:21:53
a labour spokesperson says one thing, a tory one says another, I do wish these unionists would stop whinging, get rid of the chip on their shoulders and make their minds up one way or another.
17

Vivas,

Edinburgh 01/08/2008 00:22:25
Shock horror "trains to be painted blue" story from The Vizman...WTF !

And then they get a comment from Whiskey Galore to try and beef it up. LMFAO !

What a freekin' comic. Circulation must be below the 50K per day mark now, whens the redandancies ?
18

Resolutions,

01/08/2008 00:23:37
"Transport Scotland said the rebranding aimed to provide the country's railways with a livery that will not change each time a new company takes over.

The planned revamp is also to emphasise that the network is largely funded by taxpayers, rather than the private sector."

Now why should that be open to criticism? It will also be done as the trains come up for 'painting time'.

And "Transport Scotland, whose own logo was inspired by the Saltire, stressed work on the new train design had started before the SNP came to power last year."

So who is to blame for all the money wasting, so called claimed by those who like to create hot air? Personally speaking, it looks a lot smarter than the present livery.


19

Jimmy Le Pie,

01/08/2008 00:23:59
This is really another non story.

Any word on the extensive investigations that should be going on into an alleged fraud involving a former Glasgow MP??? It is alleged the sum involved is £750,000 or thereabouts.

It is alleged the ex MP made fraudulant expense claims.

It is also alleged that he was a New Labour Sleaze MP although no one ever heard him speak.

The Darwins, of canoe fraud fame, got 6 years each for fraudulant insurance claims for around £250,000.
20

Jock Politicaljunkie,

Glasgow 01/08/2008 00:24:41


One reason for all these unionists being able to post so quickly is that they clearly don't bother to READ THE ARTICLES. Their hatred of the SNP and of their country is blind to all the little things like FACTS.


"Transport Scotland, whose own logo was inspired by the Saltire, stressed work on the new train design had started before the SNP came to power last year."

and:

"Transport Scotland said the new ScotRail version of the Saltire had taken inspiration from the former British Rail's iconic double-arrow logo, which is still used as a symbol for stations."


DUH!!!


Though I must now grit my teeth and agree with one aspect of your post at #1 AM2 - it IS a good looking livery. And people might stop looking at me in a funny way over here in Glasgow when I refer to the "Blue Trains"!!!! (eh, that's the original North Clyde Electrics for any non train buffs out there!)

21

Mogwai Fear Santa,

01/08/2008 00:25:33
#10

Correct, and the story explicitly mentions this:

"The move by Transport Scotland, the Scottish Government agency that is answerable to ministers, will be carried out during routine repainting to avoid extra costs."

But don't that stop the more excitable North Brits from exploding in permarage.
22

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 01/08/2008 00:25:48

Come on Now!!

We all Love the 'School Uniform'!

I believe 'Asda' sell them for £4.00 a shot!
23

Shave,

Edinburgh 01/08/2008 00:26:29
This is about a common identity for Scotlands trains and aesthetics. Making party political points from this story merely shows fanaticism.
24

Peeablo,

UKSSR 01/08/2008 00:34:46
AM2 - YAWN !!!

Reds under the beds and all that, idiot !!!
25

Jock Scot,

East Lothian 01/08/2008 00:37:38
Does this mean the trains are all going to look like David Coulthard's helmet.

26

subrosa,

01/08/2008 00:38:32
# 7 'We will have to spend cash painting them again when the SNP get kicked out. It's a form of grafiti. Painting slogan's and plitical messages in public infrastructure when you should be really be working for the people."

Do you have difficulty reading anything longer than 2 lines?
'Transport Scotland, whose own logo was inspired by the Saltire, stressed work on the new train design had started before the SNP came to power last year.'

Wakey wakey.
27

,

01/08/2008 00:41:25
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28

Senga Jean,

01/08/2008 00:45:18
WHAT A LOAD OF UNIONIST CLAPTRAP IS THIS? I mean the comments not the story. Anything that brings pride in being Scottish including DC's helmet is GOOD. Get over it!
29

,

01/08/2008 00:47:22
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30

,

01/08/2008 00:47:44
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31

Jimmy Le Pie,

01/08/2008 00:48:53
All buildings should have to fly the Saltire, by law!!!
32

Nevsky,

Moscow 01/08/2008 00:56:43
The article states this had nothing to do wuth the SNP and was started before they came to power and also that it will cost nothing extra. It's a train livery...doesn't anyone read the article before posting?

AM2! Who gives a c88p what Goldie thinks...independence is coming and the union flag will be consigned to history and she knows it.

Stating you are not unpatriotic and want the best for Scotland is fine UNLESS you know for a fact that staying in the Union is to the detriment of your country and your people (Glasgow East). Then you are not a patriot but indeed a disgrace to your country.

So yes you are ALL unpatriotic and curiousely (unlike any other country in modern Europe) you revel in it!
33

Nevsky,

Moscow 01/08/2008 01:02:54
I wonder if Norway has such whining losers who comment on putting their flag on a train? I doubt any country in Europe or the world would but them we are in Scotland aren't we...the land of the cringing Unionist Jock!
34

,

01/08/2008 01:08:56
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35

Annoyed with the SNP,

01/08/2008 01:09:29
33 Nevsky

"But we are in Scotland aren't we"

No, you are in Moscow, Russia?

Forgotten which moniker to use you SNP troll?!
36

CLX,

01/08/2008 01:16:04
#33,
I believe you have rattled the unionist support on here.
Like AM2, #35 has no idea of arguement. Just refer to them as sherman tankers and you'll be fine :L

It takes free thinkers to see beyond the union....They will obviously feel left out come the day...Hang tight...
37

,

01/08/2008 01:18:25
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38

Iainbroch,

Moray 01/08/2008 01:21:29
I could not care less if the trains were painted green with orange spots. If a train needs a lick of paint then it needs a lick of paint - what it does not need is lickspittle Cyber Pimps throwing a hissyfit.

Liebaahs history in respect of the rail network is not exactly covered in Glory now is it? As the same lickspittles stand back and utter not a hoot at network rails obscene profits! Twa faced or what?
39

CLX,

01/08/2008 01:25:08
Ubernumptie..like it a lot.........waiting for replies....holding breathe.....nope, nothing yet...
40

,

01/08/2008 01:27:03
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41

Shave,

Edinburgh 01/08/2008 01:28:20
#39 Iainbroch
Green with orange spots would make the trains look like a rusting bogey ;-)
42

Nevsky,

Moscow 01/08/2008 01:32:22
35:

I have one moniker unlike a few Unionists here tyring in desperation to bolster their numbers.

Scotland, sad to say IS the only country in Europe i can think of with such snivelling people as the unionists we have in Scotland.

Every detail or anything of any benefit to or anything with the name Scotland attached is immediately moaned about, whined at, ridiculed and critisised.

I would like them to name just one other country in Europe where people like this exist? There are of course none. Just Scotland where the embarassement of the cringing Unionist Jock still thrives.

No brains, no bottle, no aspiration and no hope they offer nothing to anyone apart from the ridicule and belittling of their own country.

43

,

01/08/2008 01:36:31
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44

,

01/08/2008 01:36:36
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45

,

01/08/2008 01:37:26
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46

,

01/08/2008 01:40:35
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47

Annoyed with the SNP,

01/08/2008 01:45:59
47

No, you are British, you may not like that.

Some people struggle with accepting they were born a man and have surgery to cut it off.

I guess they are just confused, a bit like you.

But you are British.
48

Iainbroch,

01/08/2008 01:47:13
re 42
Oh well! rusting bogey it is then - as long as it get me from a to b safely and in time.

re 41, I guess you are just another gobby little Britisher?
49

Nevsky,

Moscow 01/08/2008 01:48:12
46:

Never said anything of the sort. What i said was that people like you are to most independent minded Scots a complete embarassement as witnessed by the petty and manic postings on these boards.

As for greatness witness Glasgow East for how great the Union has been to Scotland recently..yes there is greatness indeed!

Its not Brits moaning..you are moaning about your country's flag being on a train...would even the English complain if the St George's cross was on their trains..i doubt it.

I have yet to see one post with regard to what the union has to offer Scotland from any unionist, you are all cringing no-hopers as far as i can see with nothing to offer..treading water until you inevitably sink...gone and forgotton for good!
50

Annoyed with the SNP,

01/08/2008 01:51:32
51

More vaccious platitudes. When will you stop?

Painting a flag on a train, please explaint to me what benefit this is to Scotland? Sure the trainspotters at SNP HQ may get a bit of wood, but it won't effect anyone in any meaningful way.

1,000 police officers instead of painting trains, changing sings and having an Islamicfestival. That is what Scotland wants and needs. Pity Alex Salmond is so out of touch.
51

,

01/08/2008 01:55:26
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52

Edward,

01/08/2008 01:55:44
I hate to rain on the unionists parade
But this has nothing to do with the SNP or the Scottish Government
Lets take a reality check and realise that SCOTRAIL is not run by the Scottish Government, nor is it under some mystic control of the SNP
SCOTRAIL is a Private francise company owned and operated by FirstGroup
Their decision to rebrand all the rolling stock is entirely down to SCOTRAIL, so please get a grip!
53

Edward,

01/08/2008 01:57:47
Its interesting to see this paper blatently mis reporting when it states 'The move by Transport Scotland, the Scottish Government agency' erm sorry branding and painting the rolling stock of SCOTRAIL is entirely down to , guess who, SCOTRAIL!!!
54

Nevsky,

Moscow 01/08/2008 01:57:53
At least i don't post c**p like this do i?

'Imagine a little girl of 7. Now imagine Alex Salmond tatooing a salire on her face to remind her unionist parents of Scotland.

Is this good? Your comments appear to support Alex Salmond's right to abuse little girls.'

Quite a disgusting thing to post! Pleased with your contribution?
55

Edward,

01/08/2008 02:04:26
'A Labour spokesman added: "This is typical of the SNP. People care about whether their train runs on time, not what colour it is painted. Repainting the rolling stock will be a huge waste of money'
Labour must be quite thick! Its a private company thats rebranding and bringing all the rolling stock under one brand, just normal business practice
56

The Pict.,

Canada 01/08/2008 02:05:23
JIMMY THE PIE. Naw Jimmy AM2 wants the English flag of St .George.
slainte mhath.
57

Annoyed with the SNP,

01/08/2008 02:06:30
56

An SNP madman said the saltire was always good when visible. I thought I'd pursue that to its illogical conclusion.

Doonhammer. You are British, accept that. You can also be Scottish, but legally and culturally you are British. Go Team GB in 2012!

Typical nationalist resorting to threats of violence over a flag. Nationalism is the same the world over.
58

bill inch,

EDINBURGH 01/08/2008 02:06:59
Edward bernys
59

Guga II,

Rockall 01/08/2008 02:09:04
#1 AM Squared.

I see you are also posting under yet another troll name (in this case as per #52).

You still haven't answered my question. Why are you, as an Irishman, so keen on keeping Scotland under the English colonial yoke?
60

Guga II,

Rockall 01/08/2008 02:11:42
Forfoulkesake, Lard George has been rolled out again by the Hootsmon to provide some more anti-SNP comment. He must be on a nice little earner from them.
61

,

01/08/2008 02:15:59
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62

Steve,

Bo'ness 01/08/2008 02:41:13
Yeah, lets burn the saltire now!
It's a dangerous political symbol!

We should replace it with a union flag in every garden!
And Britishness Day!

FFS.
63

Steve,

Bo'ness 01/08/2008 02:43:53
60, what about British nationalism? I suppose it's ok to murder people and steal their countries from them?
64

Annoyed with the SNP,

01/08/2008 02:56:44
66

No Steve, that would go against international law.

Like Great Britain like totally like beat the Nazis you know, with like the USA and Russia and stuff, you know? And they like totally set up international permanent security councils and like the UN was founded and that and like Great Britain is so totally involved in these things dude.

The SNP and Salmond are cowards though like, you know? They would like totally not get involved in these international organisations because they totally want to spend the omeny on partying dude, like par! tay!.

Dude, you totally know about politics and stuff, I haven't like had a deep conversation about like murdering folks and stealing their countries in like weeks dude.

Like, dude, who would win a fight, a panda or a siberian tiger?
65

Arthur G,

Glasgow 01/08/2008 03:03:23
#49 Kent2

"...#1 AM2, please correct me if I am wrong but I thought you were a Unionist from the North of Ireland?"

"North of Ireland?" Is that not what Irish Republicans (well, the one's who still prefer the bullet to the ballot box) call Northern Ireland? Also, those who refer to the Union Flag as a 'Butcher's apron', yet another steal from the same source.

I look forward to Scotland achieving its independence without having to resort to the rhetoric of those who were entirely comfortable with murdering their fellow citizens in great numbers in order to achieve their goal.
66

Arthur G,

Glasgow 01/08/2008 03:08:15
#60 AWTSNP

"You are British, accept that. You can also be Scottish, but legally and culturally you are British..."

No. Doonhamer is British and Scottish but culturally he is definitely Scottish.
67

Annoyed with the SNP,

01/08/2008 03:10:12
69 Arthure G

Is that why he speaks and writes in English?

You know in the SNP you may not recognise speech and mainstream media as culture, but here in the real world.
68

Beth Boyle,

NY 01/08/2008 03:17:27
Looks handsome anyway you look at it!
69

Statsman,

Edinburgh 01/08/2008 03:17:45
AM2 is a unionist brownosing troll. If he loves England so much, he should move there. Traitor.
70

Beth Boyle,

NY 01/08/2008 03:27:38
#72 No statesman would talk that way! Anyway its great as the Saltire is a Christian Symbol and perhaps some of these atheists will turn back to God at some point with that symbol forever etched on their minds! It is after all Saint Andrew's Cross! Getting back to Scottish roots means getting to the kirk on Sundays!
71

Rufus T. Firefly,

01/08/2008 03:34:01
If they had decided to paint the trains in the design of a Union Jack then I am sure none of the Natz would have minded. Would they?
72

Rufus T. Firefly,

01/08/2008 03:35:48
Hey Doonhomer . .Rule Britannia.
73

Arthur G,

Glasgow 01/08/2008 03:55:49
#70 AWTSNP

It's 'Arthur, no 'e' and I'm not a member of the SNP never have been, never will be.

As for speaking English making one 'culturally British' that is a non sequitur. English has not been the universal language of England (or what is now geographically accepted as England now for a large period of that country's existence. The Jutes, Angles & Saxons all of whom invaded from different areas of what would now be called 'Germany' spoke German ('Hoch' und 'platt'). Then there was Old Norse and of course, there were the Norman French speakers, the language that became the 'court' language of England. The eradication of the other languages of the land, Cornish, Cumbrian etc took a long time.

Scotland , too had and has a mixture of tongues, and Gaelic was never out national language any more so than, Lallans, Doric, Ullans and so on. And that is without mentioning the Anglic (Anglian or English) sub divisions that were and are spoken in Scotland and can be broadly termed ‘Scots’

In short, stating that someone is ‘culturally British’ because he or she speaks an Indo-European-Germanic-Anglo-Frisian tongue know as ‘English’ places one on pretty shaky ground.
74

Beth Boyle,

NY 01/08/2008 04:15:26
It cannot be denied that the isles all have a common history and because you all are on an big Island with lots of little ones around the edges everything is connected and very integrated. To say that there is no relationship is silly. There has been much intermarriage and much shared. Fighting like this is really daft.
75

tartangladbach,

edinburgh 01/08/2008 04:20:33
"They know they can't have a straight fight on it because they would lose hands down, so they try to brainwash people into independence instead with a strategy of incremental changes." georgie foukesy no danger you'd get brainwashed george, you'd need to grow a brain first!
76

CASEY PURVIS,

WEST HILLS 01/08/2008 04:31:19
i guess anyone who doesn't like Scotland or scottish ways is free to leave.
i mean i sure wouldn't tell them they could not go!!
casey purvis
77

Virgil,

West Vancouver 01/08/2008 04:48:40
Will this help to improve service and keep them running on time?
78

tartangladbach,

edinburgh 01/08/2008 04:54:41
i'm sure foukesy and co will be even more dramatic in the weeks leading up to a referendum! although i'm sure their policy will now be no referendum! (at the moment) then when the new leader can't last 5 minutes, margret curran will be up to the plate with a bring it on! then they'll lose the referendum! and be claiming all along that's what they always wanted the will of the people! labour is finished! the only people who don't know it, is labour, BNP and the orange lodge!
79

Robert Matheson,

Sierra Madre 01/08/2008 04:54:57
I cannot believe Scotland has so many cynics critical of this move. Good grief, those of us of Scottish ancestry abroad are proud of the Saltire! To have it as the livery of the nation's railway is perfectly appropriate. My family started as Scots, became Canadians, and became Americans. You may very well be British by politics, but be glad your a Scot by blood.
80

donald anderson it's me,

01/08/2008 05:06:30
So Labour creeps will be flying to London with Union Jack tails then?
81

viking nz,

new zealand 01/08/2008 05:19:01
Great to see we all are divided as usual , all this in fighting over a SCOTTISH COLOUR cant beleive it . yes only in SCOTLAND , united my ----.
82

chippie lover,

Train shed... 01/08/2008 05:22:27
Personally I couldn't care less what colour scheme they use. The only issue I have is that fact is First will still be running the trains and giving the subsidies they receive to their shareholders, most of whom probably do even live in Scotland.
83

Rufus T. Firefly,

01/08/2008 07:13:38
#82 Robert . . 'be glad you are a Scot by blood'.

Why? What difference does it make? Apart from having a higher chance of catching Multiple Sclerosis that is.
84

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 01/08/2008 07:17:35
Who is this guy lord furkles, anyway???? He sounds like a ravaing loonatick who has lost his marbes. Oh sorry he is LIEOBOUR!!!!
85

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 01/08/2008 07:20:33
Hey AM2....still hurting??? ;-)
86

Drum Major,

Brisbane, Australia 01/08/2008 07:22:46
This move makes more sense for Scotland. The Australian Labour Party has been introducing a republic by stealth since Goofy Gough changed all the signs on government building removing "Commonwealth of" from "Commonwealth of Australia" to promote a centralist government. We had a referendum the results of which the republican refuse to accept.

Total independance is not necessarily the best for Scotland but a truely democratic Britain where England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales are equal partners must be achieved. This will only come when the British and English parliaments are separated and an equal number of Lords from each of those sovereign countries elected by their people are the only Lords to sit in the House of Lords. Hereditary titles will not be an issue then. This would be a stronger and more influential Britain. One that got its own house in order before trying to impose it brand of democracy elsewhere.
87

Phil MaGlass,

Holland 01/08/2008 07:34:41
snp bRAINWASHING PEOPLE HAHAHAHAAAAA unbelievable how about the I vote Labour cos ma dad did and his dad did mob if thats not brainwashed voting I dont know what is,what the heck has labour done for Scotland in my life time? Nothing,the SNP have made Scots proud to be Scottish again given many people hope and have done more for Scotland in the last two years than Labour has done in 20,years of neglect and filling their own pockets,scandal after scandal,the SNP is a breath of fresh air,Labour wetting themselves over their popularity, and instead of actually raising the issues which need to be raised actually try petty point scoring which isnt working,(although it is for SNP) when Labour make themselves look stupid
88

Phil MaGlass,

Holland 01/08/2008 07:36:27
Oops! would be good if I had read my post again,I could have sorted all my commas and full stops.
89

,

01/08/2008 07:43:50
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90

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 01/08/2008 07:48:00
#30 Sicko!
91

Colkitto,

River Clyde 01/08/2008 07:51:47
A good move again by the SNP. These wee things do make an impact.
Love the quote from Foulksie "They try to brainwash people into independence instead with a strategy of incremental changes." Ha ha...brill !

Next one should be Police uniforms. Make them more distinctive with a different colour and design from the rest of the UK. Visitors would feel straight away that they are in a different country. And those of us who stay here would know when they leave Scotland

92

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 01/08/2008 07:52:40
#44 A proud doonhamer

Agreed. Hate is a terrible thing but all unionists should be aware that self-hate is even worse.
93

,

01/08/2008 08:03:24
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94

Bejjy,

01/08/2008 08:09:22
Does painting the trains mean that they will now run on time; no, thought not.
95

Bigwull,

edinburgh 01/08/2008 08:12:17
To be Honest the Scottish Government should Nationalise the railways and run it as a public service as per most of Europe
96

Bringalbert,

North Perth 01/08/2008 08:12:52
Reform the empire!
97

mrsbruce,

Livingston 01/08/2008 08:17:13
So, the railway (a private company), is painting its stock, at a time it will need painting, thus not costing any extra, all the same colour.

They have decided that it is a good business thing to paint it with the Saltire, as they are Scotrail.

This is the Scottish Governments fault because?
98

Scotland to prosper...,

01/08/2008 08:21:49
"They know they can't have a straight fight on it because they would lose hands down, so they try to brainwash people into independence instead with a strategy of incremental changes."

This might be the worst quote from a "politician" I think I've ever heard. He's really scrapping the bottom of the barrel with this one. Why does this man constantly want to open his mouth and let his belly rumble?

I'm sorry I didn't realise companies were banned from using the national flag in their logo's.
99

Linda,

Edinburgh 01/08/2008 08:25:58
Benefits of the Union # 4537

Abolition of Glasgow Passport Office.

Anti German and anti French sentiments by British Nationalists go uncommented upon. Most recently last night's BBC TV Top Gear TV show.

Flying of the Union Flag should be banned as it is creping centralisation.
100

paulr,

edinburgh 01/08/2008 08:27:38
If Labour are so absolutely certain that the people of scotland will utterly reject the SNP's independence ballot, WHY are they doing so much bleating and whining about it???
101

Daveunderwater,

Karratha 01/08/2008 08:30:59
# 46

I think you are confusing the issue, the Brits who moan are the whingeing pommes, the phrase was coined by our friends down under.

I have never heard the phrase whingeing jocks while on business down under.
102

Mikey,

01/08/2008 08:36:40
So a private company decides to repaint their trains in the colours of the flag of the country in which they operate? And unionists snivel about it?

How about rebranding 'Scotrail' to 'Iarnrod Albann?'

That should really bring out the snivellers! There can't be another country in the world that puts up with such a bunch of snivelling onanists whose only purpose in life is to see their country ruled by another!
103

Daveunderwater,

01/08/2008 08:46:51
A fleet of brand new electric trains will be rolling out in Scotland thanks to a deal worth over £200m announced by John Swinney today.

Government agency Transport Scotland will fund the contract with Siemens and HSBC to provide 130 new rail carriages from December 2010 – adding 9,000 seats to the Scottish network. The deal will also lead to 134 new jobs being created in Scotland to operate and maintain the new fleet and expanded depot facilities.

Some positive news, lets try not to whinge..
104

The Strategist,

01/08/2008 08:51:02
I'm sure there must be something just a little more important than this that needs reporting.
105

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 01/08/2008 08:58:15
The vast majority of European railways are State owned, and all display in one form or another, national or regional flags or symbols.

The French State owned SNCF is particularly proud of its world class TGV trains and takes the opportunity to display the tricolour flag on all of them!

At the present time there is a campaign in the South-East of England to change the livery of the Eurostar trains and have them emblazoned with the
Union flag.
106

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 01/08/2008 09:07:10
Shameful . Why not provide free fish suppers and tartan special on board as well , since that's the staple diet of many up here ?
107

Mike Masterton,

01/08/2008 09:07:12
Agreed #15 !
108

izzie,

dundee 01/08/2008 09:08:56
George Foulks in on Radio great fun
109

Daveunderwater,

01/08/2008 09:15:11
A fleet of brand new electric trains will be rolling out in Scotland thanks to a deal worth over £200m announced by John Swinney today.

Government agency Transport Scotland will fund the contract with Siemens and HSBC to provide 130 new rail carriages from December 2010 – adding 9,000 seats to the Scottish network. The deal will also lead to 134 new jobs being created in Scotland to operate and maintain the new fleet and expanded depot facilities.

Some positive news, lets try not to whinge..
110

Scottie,

South Africa 01/08/2008 09:18:08
Applause to posters at 10 and 11, good to see some sense ...
111

Darien,

Panama 01/08/2008 09:18:12
Remember Hen Broon's suggestion we all fly the Union Jack? Plan backfired.

Why don't Scottish Labour make Baron von Foulkes/'I'm British n' Scottish' their official leader - he is already unofficial leader. And a seriously good level of debate on radio! - (e.g. "Alex Salmond doesn't even travel by train", says Foulkes, unlike the Good Baron!)
112

Jung,

01/08/2008 09:22:23
No doubt Lord George of Numcock approves of British Airawys using the butcher's apron livery!

Personaly, I find it offensive and try never to fly with BA.
113

Scottie,

South Africa 01/08/2008 09:26:38
#70, guess what? Australians, Canadians, Zimbabweans and South Africans speak and write English ... so what? So do some Americans even lol
114

AJ Fife,

01/08/2008 09:33:14
Money well spent and personally, I'll be using the train more often from now on.
115

Bringalbert,

North Perth 01/08/2008 09:35:01
Whatever about the trains in Scotland, there is wonderful railway bridge between Penrith and Emu Plains over the Nepean river in New South Wales which, I was told, was built in Scotland many years ago and sent to its present address. The fact that it was one of those bridges meant for regions which experience heavy snow falls, didn't deter the New South Wales Government Railways, or the body preceding them, from erecting it where it has stood for many years in spite of temperatures sometimes over 40 degrees Centigrade and occasionally minus 4 or 5 of the same, but rarely, if ever, experiencing snow.
116

Deamhain,

Aberdeenshire 01/08/2008 09:42:32
"The Saltire and the Lion Rampant are for all of Scotland, not just people who want independence," he said.

I think not! The 'Lion Rampant' in question is the Royal Standard; hardly for 'all of Scotland'. The last thing Scotland needs is some other jumped up foreigner lording it over us. Show me a king who cares about 'all', whatever the land. Tories eh?
117

,

01/08/2008 09:47:19
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118

tessterror,

borders 01/08/2008 09:49:47
at last sooo glad to see there is a wee cyber revolution going on- and that more and more of us are agreeing that most of the regular posters spout utter p-sh.
I think most of the anti SNP posters on this site must be sassenachs
119

Zillionaire,

Glasgow 01/08/2008 09:49:57
If it makes anyyone have a little more pride in our wee country then it's good enough for me........Labour may wish to take note.
120

Miss H,

01/08/2008 09:51:55
Brainwashing people into independence by painting trains blue! What a loony.

The rebranding development started before the SNP were elected. Naturally Scotrail will want to bring in the feelgood factor associated with the Saltire. What would you prefer – trains with ‘the best wee choo choos in the world’ painted on the side?

Annoyed with the SNP – I bet you are. Manifesto pledges on prescription charges and police have been met to the letter. My bet is that manifesto pledge on student debt will be taken to Parliament at start of 2011 when Labour will find it difficult to vote against it having spent the past 3 years slating the SNP for not doing it.

No wonder you are annoyed.
121

Boswall,

01/08/2008 09:56:00
All style and no substance.

Can't we have rolling stock that's modern, sufficient for the passenger numbers and running on a timetable that bares some resemblance to the published timetables?

Competence first, flag waving later.
122

Otis Boone,

Sacramento California USA 01/08/2008 10:03:07
I actually like the artist's conception. European Trains always have great livery schemes, unlike our "Stainless Aluminum or Steal to prevent graffiti," a la the New York Subway.

As far as it being used as a subliminal message for independence, I could see it being so. A nationalist runs your government, and as the saying goes, "He who has the gold makes the rules."

But lets not forget that last year when the Bore became Prime Minister he started a campaign to convince you and your countrymen to think of yourselves as British, and not English, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, Liverpudlian or any other demonym in use. I see this as a natural response to that.
123

Buff,

DUNDEE 01/08/2008 10:04:20
Lord George Foulkes and the word creep in the same sentence................should I say more!
124

Calum10,

01/08/2008 10:09:02
"Read all about it! LABOUR REJECTS SALTIRE."

125

Cuppa tea,

01/08/2008 10:09:44
Miss H (129)

You say that the SNP have followed their manifesto pledge to the letter on prescription charges?

That is strange, I could have sworn that the manifesto said scrapping the prescription charge "Immediately" whereas the SNP are still taxing people £5 a go 12 months later, and will still be taxing people in years to come.

I find it sad that you feel so strongly about the SNP that you would lie for them on a public forum and ruin what little credibility you had as a serious commentator.
126

Geoff,

sa 01/08/2008 10:11:30
1 AM2-Good morning-nice post! I particularly agree with Annabel Gouldies wise words!
127

Geoff,

sa 01/08/2008 10:19:20
125 Demhain-you are technically correct in calling the Lion rampant the scottish royal Standard although its popular use by us peasants is widely tolerated. On subjects vexillological, the Union Jack(Flag if u want to be pedantic) is also strictly speaking a Royal Flag and has never been officially proclaimed as the flag of the UK.

Methalions-howsit Meths! In the 1930,s in Natal the Nats wanted to take away the Union Jack-the cry then was "There will be dirty weather for anybody stepping on the Flag!!" These pieces of cloth can stir such emotions!
128

Hermitage,

Edinburgh 01/08/2008 10:19:30
GO-FASTER STRIPES were around in the 1960s.

A fetching tartan design, or a few thistles, might be more up-to-date.
129

Venachar,

01/08/2008 10:20:14
#46

"Brits are honest" give me a break! What about that little creep Milliband - gives me the heeby geebies just looking at him.

Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer still!
130

dyon gollins's back,

Brussels 01/08/2008 10:22:39
Well I never - such a fuss over the painting of trains!! Since when was First-Scotrail a branch of the Scottish Executive/Government anyway?? As far as can be seen from the illustration the new paint is quite grand and not a million miles away from the previous colour of the East Coast Electric trains which were themselves quite distinguished looking - so it's an improvement. The Strathclyde colour was never good - made the trains look even dirtier than they were - so all in all a good move.

So what's all the fuss about? A yes - it's labour's desparate attempt to 'paint ' any initiatives which have any Scottish flavour as Nationalistic and hence suspect. It is not easy for the Labour Party to remember that until 1946 it was they who espoused independence and the biggest task for the new Scottish (sic!!) labour party leader will be to shift the party back to that policy which was invented by the ILP and Keir Hardie - the forefather of the "scottish" labour party.
131

A Clamper,

Edinburgh 01/08/2008 10:23:13
Looks great. I look forward to the day the Saltire is unfurled over Edinburgh Castle.
132

,

01/08/2008 10:24:23
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133

subrosa,

01/08/2008 10:24:58
# 138 # 139

Now now Meths, give some credit to our 'new' posters for their creativity.

As for the trains having the saltire painted on them - what a good idea. Especially when the repainting will be done when it is required as per Scotrail's schedule.

Now to Radio Scotland's prgramme between 9-10am. Who was the presenter? I've never heard such a low standard of interviewing on any radio programme in my life.
134

Nevsky,

Moscow 01/08/2008 10:25:05
Poll from the Herald! Trend towards the SNP continues.


puts them on 37% compared to 27% for Labour, well up on the only purely Scottish poll a month ago. The Tories are on 17% on this analysis, and the LibDems on 14%, with others totalling 5%.

The Nationalist claim this aggregate of polling evidence points to them winning 35 seats in a general election, compared to just 13 for Labour.

135

G,

dundy 01/08/2008 10:27:24
The usual SNPite claptrap - that you can't be a proud Scot and not support independence - the SNPites have to lose this idea of the second class Scot or they will fail to attract the doubters they need to persuade to achieve their only policy....it is never good to insult those who control your fate...
136

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 01/08/2008 10:28:15
51 Nevsky: ".you are moaning about your country's flag being on a train...would even the English complain if the St George's cross was on their trains..i doubt it."

Nevsky - no Unionist politician would ever dream of painting the St George's Cross - nor the Union Jack on a train for the simple reason that it would be seen as utterly tasteless, primitive rabble rousing nationalism of the lowest gutter kind.

For the same reason, the vast majority of people in these islands do not fly national flags outside their houses or have flag poles in their gardens - unlike the Americans - because it is seen as crude, primitive and rabble rousing. The only place I have ever seen flags painted on houses was in Belfast - where people were shooting, bombing, beating and torturing each other in the name of their various nationalisms.

After Salmond gets the saltire on the trains, the buses, the planes etc - will he then demand sporrans on the front of them?

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a Scoundrel" Samuel Johnson ( April 7, 1775.)

137

subrosa,

01/08/2008 10:28:29
# 147

Calm down. Remember the only poll worth noting is the one at the ballot box.
138

Nevsky,

Moscow 01/08/2008 10:28:56
AM2

You will notice the conservatives on 17% which means that the Conservative Government will be elected with 17% of the vote in Scotland?

England votes and England will get the government for Britain.

Scotland will have maybe 3 Conservative MPs to represent the voice of 5 million people in Wesminster withing the Conservative Government.

Acceptable?
139

subrosa,

01/08/2008 10:32:42
# 149

So I'm a crude, primitive and rabble rousing Scot because I fly the Saltire in my garden? Well well.

Actually I get comments from people of all political persuasions that it's a landmark in a residential area where houses have no numbers only names. Many say that without my flag giving directions would be nigh impossible.

Don't tar everyone with your biased opinion.
140

Nevsky,

Moscow 01/08/2008 10:34:26
149:

Flying your counties flag is in 'bad taste'. Maybe for you. Rabble rousing..mmm..trying to think the last time a saw a rabble roused when the rabble spotted a Saltire...mmm...nope can't think of one instance.

Its harmless surely and if people choose to do it fine, whether it be English, Scottish or from wherever.


141

Helmut Smegma,

Edinburgh. 01/08/2008 10:34:54
I`d prefer the Japanses flag - would that make them any more punctual?
142

Geoff,

sa 01/08/2008 10:41:52
152 Dave from barra-morning David!Yes one sees the Saltire in many shades other than the "official" sky blue. Leaving aside all of our varied political views,British flag protocols are an absolute mess. The Union Jack uses a much darker blue-particularly in the RN version, the latter supposedly because of its fade resistance. UJ's generally vary in shade from a mid blue to almost black but are never seen with the pale blue to which you refer. Personally(yes and i know,I,m an incorrigible Unionist) I prefer the dark blue from a purely aesthetic viewpoint. I think your pale blue saltire makes that majestic flag look insipid-no offence!
143

Venachar,

01/08/2008 10:42:48
Don't forget a couple of years ago British Airways changed to the World's Airline and painted that collection of abstract art on their tails doing away with their Union Flag emblem.

When the air traffic controllers said to the other planes to follow the BA plane the others all got lost!

As someone else has said above - have you seen the Strathclyde Passenger colours - keech, utter keech. I know which one I'd prefer to see.
144

Geoff,

sa 01/08/2008 10:44:29
150 Subrosa-the only poll that matters is the one at the ballot box"-absolutely! Remember the famous headline"Dewey Wins!"
145

Nevsky,

Moscow 01/08/2008 10:45:11
148:

Perhaps you should try and persuede people as to the benefits of the union. Many think it is finished.

When you vote AGAINST the future prosperity of your country and when it has been clearly demonstrated that Scotland would prosper outwith the union (even admitted by unionists) and that remaining in the union is to the DETRIMENT of the citizens of your country.

Then you have to start asking question as to why these cringeing unionists are still so desperate to remain part of the union.

For many the answer is simple, they are British. I say British and not British and Scottish as British is put first and always above being Scottish which is seen as subservient to their Britishness. That is why they cannot vote SNP, they would have to change their identity fundamentally..it has little to do with financial arguements!



Many others have a different loyalty.
146

Why can't I use my usual name?,

01/08/2008 10:48:15
160 comments on the colour of trains...
147

,

01/08/2008 10:59:18
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148

Geoff,

sa 01/08/2008 10:59:29
Looking forward to getting my free giant map of the UK tomorrow. I believe it comes with a perforated strip so that yous Nats can tear the bottom bit off! :)

Have a nice day guys!
149

Geoff,

sa 01/08/2008 11:01:09
164 Alberto-dont blame your Malawian neighbour for flying the saltire-his flag(designwise) is dreadful!
150

AM2,

Scotland,UK 01/08/2008 11:03:31
#137 Geoff

And good morning to you. Thanks. The nationalists seem less keen! ;-)

#72 Statsman

So I'm a "traitor", eh? Congratulations! You win my outrageous "CyberNat comment of the day" prize. I won't provide the blog link as the forum moderator seems to regard it as spam.
151

European Scot,

01/08/2008 11:06:28
157 Geoff

" Personally(yes and i know,I,m an incorrigible Unionist) I prefer the dark blue from a purely aesthetic viewpoint. I think your pale blue saltire makes that majestic flag look insipid-no offence! "

Morning youngster !
The darker blue adds more contrast to the Union flag, the fragmented elements of the Scottish flag need to be artificially boosted to compete with the rather large red cross that's been splatted across the front of it !
On its own, however, the subtle, lighter blue, gives the Saltire more of an authentic, antique feel to it. ( yes I do speak from experience ! )
The flags of St George and St Andrew are far better viewed, like the countries they represent, in their entirety !
152

Ellie,

Edinburgh 01/08/2008 11:06:46
Why not let the graphity artists loose and we can get it done for nothing?
153

Brian Hill,

01/08/2008 11:21:34
If displaying the saltire is independence by creep does that mean subverting all things Scottish (including history in schools) and replacing it with all things British including the union jack is unionism by creep?

Strange how we didn't hear the same people freaking about British airways changing it's logo 2 or 3 times. No waste of money there then?

Place these words into what is becoming a well known phrase 'freak charging mode into unionists'.

Unionists are becoming more laughable by the day.
154

Alan B,

01/08/2008 11:22:03
"To be Honest the Scottish Government should Nationalise the railways and run it as a public service as per most of Europe"

The do not have the power to do that. They do not even control or own track which is run by wesminster.

Everything regarding trains shouold be devolved and then we could have a discussion about the best structure for scotland.
155

radge dug,

Dùn Eideann 01/08/2008 11:29:31
Very good but it would be better if Scotland's trains were under Scottish Govt. contol. Im sure Labour would be only too happy to support the SNP and others in renationalising our trains for our benefit.

Funny though, only sad George Foulkes offers the typically bitter Labour response - this from New Labour that wants to foist God Save the Queen and the Union Jack on all immigrants. Good to see AM2's Tory colours coming to the fore too.

Saor Alba.
156

Tris,

01/08/2008 11:29:48
"Transport Scotland, whose own logo was inspired by the Saltire, stressed work on the new train design had started before the SNP came to power last year.

But the Labour MSP Lord George Foulkes said: "This is all part of the SNP's independence by creep.""

Talking of creeps, it says all you need to know about Foulkes and loads of comments on here. Don't let the truth get in the way of a good story. Just how stupid does George the Baron look over things like this?

Britain never used its flag for much, but most countries do. Why shouldn't Scotland? As long as it is not costing extra money, and is being done as part of a normal repainting programme, I think it's a great idea.
157

Geoff,

sa 01/08/2008 11:30:14
168 European scot-Morning old man of Antiquity! Actually there are some in the Flag institute (of GB)of which body i am a memeber, who contend that the st andrews Cross was "laid over" the Cross of st.George. I suppose you could argue that from the point of view of the blue segments! As you probably know there is a Scottish version of the UJ in which the Saltire dissects the st george Cross. They could have compromised by triangulating the central portion of the SG cross so that the SA cross and the latter met at a point with neither blottin out t'other but heralds of the day had other ideas!
158

Geoff,

sa 01/08/2008 11:39:31
174 i had to become a memeber as they wouldnt have me as a member!!
159

Conan the Librarian™,

01/08/2008 11:41:48
176
Morning Geoff.
If you rejoined, would you be a remember?
160

Venachar,

01/08/2008 11:41:57
If you had been in the Scouts you would know that the Saltire is the main constituent of the Union Flag.
This used to be proven by the order in constructing a Union Flag. So I do not agree with 174.
161

Miss H,

01/08/2008 11:43:46
136 You would not make a very credible witness in court if you could have sworn to that.

SNP manifesto 2007 http://www.snp.org/files/manifesto%20programme.pdf
162

Number 6,

Germany 01/08/2008 11:47:21
Foulkes is certainly one twisted and bitter man. The unionista fustration is beginning to boil over. How dare Foulkes object to the SCOTTISH saltire on display anywhere. Just slither off into obscurity please Foulkes, you are giving your side a right showing up.
163

Geoff,

sa 01/08/2008 11:50:11
178 conan the librarian-hi conan:)

I would indeed be a remember and on my death i would imagine they might hold a Rerememberance service!
164

Geoff,

sa 01/08/2008 11:55:38
179 venachar-your interpretation may well be correct-certainly a blue segment of the Saltire is in pride of place in the top quarter of the hoist(the name for the bit nearest the flag pole). Different people see different things. most nationalists and many scots unionists are offended by the seemingly dominant position of the St george's Cross. It doesnt offend moi, but I can see their point of view.
165

Geoff,

sa 01/08/2008 11:59:04
Conan-if they blackballed me i suppose i would be a dismember!!
166

BennyB,

Paris 01/08/2008 12:01:08
It is intersting how one article on painting nathional colours on a train can provoke such discussion (180 comments!!!) and especially anti GB.
What nationalist scots must not forget is that independence will not answer all scotlands problems. I would go further and say that it will answer few of scotland's problems. I would suggest to anti-unionists to review the different economic pros and cons ot independence before advocating it. For instance, does scotland have sufficient exports to survive on its own (and not just petrol, whiskey etc). As an insignificant country amoungst 180 other countries, will it have th clout to attract investment? As a minor partner in the EU, will it's views be listened to? Let's check out the details before making a decision. I for one, am not convinced that scotland would benefit econimically for such a choice, especially as for about ten years, scotland has had sufficient control over its home affairs to change things for the better and still has not got away from the interparty bickering, the jobs-for-the-boys attitude and mis-attributation of public funds. All parties have had nice manifestos and have gone through with little.
167

Ian from Gala,

Galashiels 01/08/2008 12:09:07
New livery looks good and makes a lot of sense rather than having franchised colours. It would be great if we could have trains in the Borders soon - we've been waiting for the rail network to rediscover the central borders of scotland for decades!

PS why are there still reactionaries in the labour party who cannot accept the saltire? It's not an SNP symbol, and it's not even a a political symbol. It is a historic national symbol that unites all the people of Scotland - let's just accept this fact! (I hope you're reading this too Lord George Foulkes!)
168

Keir Hardie,

Inverness 01/08/2008 12:09:33
Team 1: Team 2 are all silly billies, why don't they stop posting here, no-one is convinced by their rubbish and lies! They smell of wee! I've got a childish nickname for them!

Team 2: Team 1 are all silly billies, why don't they stop posting here, no-one is convinced by their rubbish and lies!
They smell of wee! I've got a childish nickname for them!

Many people here, they only thing they care about is putting the other team down, and they don't care how they make their own team look. I know this is nothing new here, not by a long shot, but shame on you for cheapening politics this way. Politics is important, but if a serious conversaton was allowed to take place here you'd regard it as a personal failure.
169

Dorian,

Edinburgh 01/08/2008 12:11:29
However, the rebranding brought accusations that the SNP government was using the Saltire for "independence by creep".

In contrast to Labour's "Taxes by Stealth".
170

European Scot,

01/08/2008 12:15:40
174 Geoff

"As you probably know there is a Scottish version of the UJ in which the Saltire dissects the st george Cross"

I've seen the more 'dominant' Saltire version, parts of which which looked quite modern, but for me, although hardly an enthusiast, the current design works better.
Whatever the reason was for its final selection, aesthetics or politics, and the latter is far more likely, the Union flag, and what it represents, seems to be fading away faster than any of its colours !
The St George's flag and the Saltire, what they represent is authenticity.
They are the originals, far better than contrived !
I much prefer genuine antiques, don't you ?!
171

Nevsky,

Moscow 01/08/2008 12:16:05
187:

Of course Scotland is viable as an independenct country just like all the other independent countries. Even countries with virtually no infrastructure or natural resources such as the Baltic countries are now prospering.

I don't follow this 'fear factor'. Scotland is a highly developed country with an abundance of natural resources.

If the country is managed properly and carefully of course we would be wealthy. Norway is!
172

Venachar,

01/08/2008 12:21:37
Benny B

This bickering is part of the Scottish psyche! We've been doing it for hundreds and hundreds of years, back to the days of Wallace, Bruce etc.
The fact that Labour are so incompetent doesn't make it as much fun.
Unfortunately over the past 50 years Scotlands economic base has changed because of Westminster Policy - shipyards, steelworks and coal all basically gone. Scotlands other free enterprises have been taken over by others and the head office structure removed - insurance,banking, alcohol industries are examples.
The state sector has become in relation a more significant employer because of this. However I can assure you that many small and medium enterprises are contributing to Scotlands wealth and knowledge base. Oh and when I finsich here I'm going to have a little blast of Grand Theft Auto IV one of our exports.
173

JoeO,

West Calder 01/08/2008 12:21:52
#77.
“It cannot be denied that the isles all have a common history and because you all are on an big Island with lots of little ones around the edges everything is connected and very integrated. To say that there is no relationship is silly. There has been much intermarriage and much shared. Fighting like this is really daft.”

You are absolutely right – all of this island, and it’s neighbour Ireland, has a common history of subjugation under an English King – except those who live in England, who seem to enjoy that idea. Even when our own King James went South he kept the seat of the English throne.

So the fact that some of our own countrymen are happy to continue paying homage to London should be no surprise, nor that others of our countrymen wish to rise up and throw off that yoke.

As you say, a common history!
174

Geoff,

sa 01/08/2008 12:24:04
How about green trains for Celtic supporters?
175

Luke Skywalker,

United Kingdom 01/08/2008 12:26:06
#192 I agree with your last sentence. However, with ecky in charge what chance is there of that happening?
176

Scheme,

01/08/2008 12:28:08
BA have the union jack on the tail of their aeroplanes. Does Foulkes think that this will "brainwash people" into remaining British?
177

Geoff,

sa 01/08/2008 12:30:35
198 Scheme-actually it isnt a Union Jack-more of a logo in the British colours loosely based on the UJ.

200 for you know what?
178

Geoff,

sa 01/08/2008 12:31:32
200 for the Red White and Blue
179

Geoff,

sa 01/08/2008 12:32:32
Meths is obviously asleep today
180

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 01/08/2008 12:32:52
It's a disgrace that a Lord is allowed to be an MSP. That cretin Foulkes should be made to give up his Lordship or give up his seat in Holyrood. Come to think of it, how come an egit like him is a Lord anyway?
181

Arrow,

edinburgh 01/08/2008 12:55:31
while waiting for my wife to emerge from an appointment with the quack i listened to Foulkes on the radio. as a fan of the Goon Show i had a dsitict feeling of deja vu. is the man on the3 drink so early in the morning. i beleive that it was all that the interviewer could do to ask questions and not laugh out loud at the inane answers that this "politician" was giving. the man is a clown and one respondent to the programme referred to the fulsome praise that the lord had for the Hearts chairman at theo utset only to do a flip flop when he thought he might lose popularity. keep him on because he is becoming more useful to the SNP than "Bendy" Wendy or "Dinnae" Kerr in terms of votes gained.
182

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 01/08/2008 12:59:53
#204 agreed. Couldn't all members of the SNP "resign" from the party for one day, join Labour and vote Foulkes in as leader? Then rejoin the SNP of course!
183

,

01/08/2008 13:01:14
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184

Nevsky,

Moscow 01/08/2008 13:14:55
For unionists the below was taken from the Telegraph today. For all the scare stories you all seem to have little to say when the UK could have a national debt running to £100 billion.

Norway by comparison...even it's oil fund...has a surplus of £200 billion as well as being one of the wealthiest countries in Europe!


The national debt could swell to well over £1,000bn if the Government goes ahead with a plan to incorporate the huge public sector pensions liability in its accounts.

The proposal, which is presently under consideration, would obliterate one of Gordon Brown's key borrowing rules - that public sector debt cannot exceed 40pc of gross domestic product - as it would push the debt to almost 100pc of GDP.

Quite a break from his golden rule! Now that is good management!

185

wattie>x 1,

PLYMOUTH 01/08/2008 13:29:17
In my lifetime; the early history education taught in the schools I was fortunate enough to attend when brought up in Ayrshire, was solely Scottish.
Our historical heritage took pride of place and was never far off from the daily curriculum. The English National Anthem and "Land of Dope and Gory" were both ridiculed and despiised by most ordinary Scots. The only section of the population who loved to wave their little Union Flags and acknowledge the servile God Save the (KING/Queen) with a hearty rendering at their stage managed annual perty conference was the same party who now display so much venom against anything pertaining to our people regaining our nationhood,are the TORIES.
In the ear 1930s, most school children then were taken on a visit to Dam Park in Ayr to witness the brutal end of our great patriot Wallace being re-enacted.
Burns also never forgot this brutal episode in our Scottish history; as many of his poems so aptly dis-played, and I am sure, if alive today, would have relished the trains of our Nation being shrouded with the Saltire!
186

Laird o' Glenrothes,

01/08/2008 13:31:10
208 posts about the colour of trains??? Are you lot mad? They get re-painted every few years anyway, the paint takes a hell of a beating travelling at speed. So there's no extra cost! What's wrong with having out national flag on our trains, are you embarassed by it? Go down to England and you'll see the same kind of thing happening.

Mad. Bonkers!! Get back to work and do something!
187

Trond,

Norway 01/08/2008 13:40:03
# 33

Norwegian trains still have the Soviet flag's red only.

BTW

Why would you know ? Instructions for opening their doors are only given in two versions, both Norwegian.
188

Scottish 'N British,

01/08/2008 13:43:37
19

Agree - non story.

Real news is the 1,000 polis, scrapping student debt, Futures Trust (eh?), etc.

Also, still waiting to read of Salmond's grand plans for the regeneration of Glasgow East.


189

Scottish 'N British,

01/08/2008 13:44:23
19

Agree - non story.

Real news is the 1,000 polis, scrapping student debt, Futures Trust (eh?), etc.

Also, still waiting to read of Salmond's grand plans for the regeneration of Glasgow East.


190

steve52,

Kinfauns 01/08/2008 14:04:25
The Scotsman trying to run down the SNP yet again....

Lord...I live by poncing off the tax payer...Foulks gets his nasty bit in......should have remained in the gutter. Does anyone listen to that buffon?

Agree another non story served up by the Unionist Scotsman.
191

Nevsky,

Moscow 01/08/2008 14:12:54
213:

Any comment on how Gordon will re-generate and economy predicted to have a national debt running at 100% of GDP?

£100 billion is the figure by the way? Any ideas or still a little bitter at the SNP wiping out your majority in Glasgow lol
192

Darien,

Panama 01/08/2008 14:16:06
A transport vehicle is surely one of the best places to show off a national symbol like the Scottish flag. As the trains travels throughout the nation (of Scotland, that is) more people will see and appreciate the symbol, and visitors will be reminded where they are. This is not 'trivialising' the symbol, but rejoicing in it. Well done First Scotrail and the Scottish Government. Only out of touch British Nationalist internal colonialists like Baron von Foulkes could object.
193

,

01/08/2008 14:24:47
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194

Nevsky,

Moscow 01/08/2008 14:25:38
213:

You will notice that Brown has broken another 'golden rule' Scot n Brit that national debt should not run at more than 40% of GDP.

Predicted that this will be scrapped to allow national debt to run an 100% GDP.

Brown breaks promises again, plunges the country into more debt and this is after taxing pensions of course...any comments?

Also did you see the latest poll puts? It puts the SNP a full 10 points clear now of Labour...wow gets even better for the SNP day by day.

Your vitriol seems not to be working..have to try more lies and another tactic i think!
195

Nevsky,

Moscow 01/08/2008 14:25:50
213:

You will notice that Brown has broken another 'golden rule' Scot n Brit that national debt should not run at more than 40% of GDP.

Predicted that this will be scrapped to allow national debt to run an 100% GDP.

Brown breaks promises again, plunges the country into more debt and this is after taxing pensions of course...any comments?

Also did you see the latest poll? It puts the SNP a full 10 points clear now of Labour...wow gets even better for the SNP day by day.

Your vitriol seems not to be working..have to try more lies and another tactic i think!
196

,

01/08/2008 14:29:02
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197

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 01/08/2008 14:30:23
194 'Joe'
"all of this island, and it’s neighbour Ireland, has a common history of subjugation under an English King – except those who live in England, who seem to enjoy that idea."

You are a little confuse about British history; there has never been an English king. There have been French kings - the Plantagenets, Welsh Kings and Queens - Henry VIII and Elizabeth 1, Dutch kings - William of Orange - and Scottish Kings - James IV etc. But never a single English king. The current lot are Germans (Saxe Coburg von Gotha) - changed the name to Windsor during the slaughter of WW1.

The reality is that England has consistently sacrificed its own right to power (numerically and democratically England would always outvote any other member of the Union by a factor of 10:1) - in return for the greater benefit of mutual safety and mutual benefit. Since 1998 - England has been ruled by a Scottish Mac mafia UBlair, Brown, Reid, Cook, Alexander, Des Browne, speaker Nartin, Darling etc) that has ruined the entire nation's finances, stolen our pension funds, sold off the gold reserves, bankrupted the housing system, privatised the NHS - and given us the most repressive, illiberal, CCTV dominated society we have ever had. All this is the result of the Scottish mafia - who are now seen for what they are: incompetent, intellectually and morally bankrupt, power hungry, trough guzzling, selfish thieves. They are about to be kicked out into political oblivion and hopefully, England will never suffer under the yopke of such a band of Scotch neo-marxist thieves ever again.

PS Nevsky - BA have the national flag on tailfins for the same reason British ships fly the flag - they are national carriers working internationally and need to be identified as such. But you will never see Union Jacks on British trains - because it would be naieve, primitive and tasteless. As the saltire on trains in Scotland will be seen to be.
198

,

01/08/2008 14:32:21
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199

Ian G,

EDINBURGH 01/08/2008 14:33:39
Amazing!
A company makes a decision that all their transport will have the same livery, the 'Scottish flag' for Scotland's trains and all the British Nationalists throw a hissy-fit.
All of them proud that they can't read.
The SNP can't make any company paint their transport black and yellow or blue and white anymore than Labour can make them paint 'Red Roses' on them.
Every train get a paint job every now and again. Now they will all look the same. BIG DEAL!
When I talked about this at work with colleges, we all agreed we liked it and we all thought Unionists were all barking mad to think that it was a plot by the SNP.
The Scotsman to my amazement thought it a good idea.

There is indeed hope yet.
200

,

01/08/2008 14:34:16
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201

Ian G,

EDINBURGH 01/08/2008 14:36:12
Amazing!
A company makes a decision that all their transport will have the same livery, the 'Scottish flag' for Scotland's trains and all the British Nationalists throw a hissy-fit.
All of them proud that they can't read.
The SNP can't make any company paint their transport black and yellow or blue and white anymore than Labour can make them paint 'Red Roses' on them.
Every train get a paint job every now and again. Now they will all look the same. BIG DEAL!
When I talked about this at work with colleges, we all agreed we liked it and we all thought Unionists were all barking mad to think that it was a plot by the SNP.
The Scotsman to my amazement thought it a good idea.

There is indeed hope yet.
202

Ian G,

EDINBURGH 01/08/2008 14:36:15
Amazing!
A company makes a decision that all their transport will have the same livery, the 'Scottish flag' for Scotland's trains and all the British Nationalists throw a hissy-fit.
All of them proud that they can't read.
The SNP can't make any company paint their transport black and yellow or blue and white anymore than Labour can make them paint 'Red Roses' on them.
Every train get a paint job every now and again. Now they will all look the same. BIG DEAL!
When I talked about this at work with colleges, we all agreed we liked it and we all thought Unionists were all barking mad to think that it was a plot by the SNP.
The Scotsman to my amazement thought it a good idea.

There is indeed hope yet.
203

M.Corleone,

2nd Vatican State........ Coatbridge 01/08/2008 14:36:17
Absolutely disgraceful....Saltires on "Scot"-rail...what is the world coming to ?

Let's stop having a "Scot"-land team in case this is misconstrued as some case for independence....

Better ban all those carrying saltire's from now on in case the Lie-bore party think they are all SNP supporter's and jail them........

Maybe we should just have "Brits" porridge oats in the morning so we don't offend the Union.......

Why isn't it called British Rail any more anyway?
204

Ian G,

EDINBURGH 01/08/2008 14:43:13
Amazing!
A company makes a decision that all their transport will have the same livery, the 'Scottish flag' for Scotland's trains and all the British Nationalists throw a hissy-fit.
All of them proud that they can't read.
The SNP can't make any company paint their transport black and yellow or blue and white anymore than Labour can make them paint 'Red Roses' on them.
Every train get a paint job every now and again. Now they will all look the same. BIG DEAL!
When I talked about this at work with colleges, we all agreed we liked it and we all thought Unionists were all barking mad to think that it was a plot by the SNP.
The Scotsman to my amazement thought it a good idea.

There is indeed hope yet.
205

Ian G,

EDINBURGH 01/08/2008 14:43:56
Amazing!
A company makes a decision that all their transport will have the same livery, the 'Scottish flag' for Scotland's trains and all the British Nationalists throw a hissy-fit.
All of them proud that they can't read.
The SNP can't make any company paint their transport black and yellow or blue and white anymore than Labour can make them paint 'Red Roses' on them.
Every train get a paint job every now and again. Now they will all look the same. BIG DEAL!
When I talked about this at work with colleges, we all agreed we liked it and we all thought Unionists were all barking mad to think that it was a plot by the SNP.
The Scotsman to my amazement thought it a good idea.

There is indeed hope yet.
206

,

01/08/2008 14:57:43
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207

First Rule of Anarchy,

01/08/2008 15:24:01
I wish I got a paint job every couple of years.

Hang on, I didn't mean paint...
208

westview,

Practice a "Thumbs Up "as the new logo goes by! 01/08/2008 15:43:33
Foulks objects to the Scots dumping our dependence on the old Empire and seeking to make our way in the bigger world as a free nation. He objects to us doing it step by step and bit by bit. Would he rather we did it like the Americans and gained independence by means of a violent ,bloody war? The Australian and Canadian way of gaining freedom from London rule seems a far better way. I suggest we all give the thumbs up to the new Scots logo on the Scots trains as they run along on the railway lines in Scotland.
209

Andrah,

Embrugh 01/08/2008 15:50:27
I suppose the trains will continue to look like giant toothpaste cartons, no worse than Scotrail does now with First Group's awful "Barbie" corporate livery.
What next though, Saltire liveried buses throughout Scotland with those travelling from English points of origin repainted at the Border? All planes landing at Scottish airports with Saltire painted tails? Jockrail twinned with Siberian Railways and Red Ken brought in to run the system?
210

westview,

Enjoying the end of empire. 01/08/2008 15:55:02
If Foulkes wishes to change flags let him start by asking the Royal Navy to stop flying the mainly English flag on British ships. Change the red cross on a white background ,with a wee union jack stuck in the corner, to a saltire ,while they are in Scotland.
211

Jambo Number 1,

01/08/2008 16:04:39
Anyone know where AM2 lives? I want to paint a big saltire on his house then run away! teehee.
212

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 01/08/2008 16:17:11
About as in yer face as you can get.
Ah'm lovin' it!!
If Britian really is the "union" that the Brits say it is, shouldn't there be a saltaire flying from one of the Westminster poles. Just so Brown can prove we've one big happy family.
In yer dreams.
213

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 01/08/2008 16:27:21
Could I ask my fellow Nats to desist from the attacks on Lord Foulkes?

Please remember that Labour Hy Heid yins thought so much of his Lordship that they got him to agree to be parachuted into Labours Holyrood ranks as an MSP, ( what an image that conjures up), to lend to the rest of their troups there the benifit of his experience.

His time at Holyrood has been a great success, for the SNP it's true, but given that is the case, plus, he seems to have persuaded his labour playmates that he and only he should be permitted to quote on any 'newsworthy' subject that media hacks consult him about, which of course is something else in which he shoes his usual class, let us do nothing that might encourage the Labour party to remove him.

Lord George, a wilderness crying out in a voice.

214

JoeMiddleton,

Edinburgh, Scotland 01/08/2008 16:35:27
There's a creep here certainly who can't feel any pride in the Saltire. No wonder Labour are getting thumped at every opportunity. Lord Foolish for party leader!
215

Phillip,

01/08/2008 17:01:36
Unionists do seem to be a rather hyserical lot. The announcement was quite plain. When a train needs to be repainted it will be repainted in the new color scheme instead of in one of the many different old schemes. The trains were going to be repainted anyway so this won't cost any extra.

In fact, if you think about it, it may actually cost less since ScotRail will now be able to buy only one set of paints for ALL trains. It's simple market forces - a larger order gets a better volume discount.

It's a simple exercise in branding. By creating a single unified brand throughout Scotland they make advertising, printing and everything else simpler and less expensive.

Only those who have an actual pathological disdain for all things Scottish would be upset.

The Tories are quite right in supporting the change. It just makes sense. It is neither pro nor anti independence/SNP.

Or is the next Unionist plan going to be a resurrection of the attempts at eradicating all Scottish culture as the English tried in the 17th & 18th centuries? After all, why be upset by someone being proud of the Saltire unless the very idea of Scotland makes one upset.
216

,

01/08/2008 17:09:47
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217

Boggle fey the Bog,

01/08/2008 17:17:06
I wonder how long ~my post at #242 will last?
The censorship on this forum is a fine example of why every free thinking person should throw the Unionista's and their 'yes papers and men' out, they are the enemies of freedom and rational thought.
The harbringers of destruction of safe and respectful communities, the deystroyers of knowledge, the appeasers of mamon, get them all out now!!

Rant over! ;-)
218

Richardinho,

01/08/2008 17:48:21
How ludicrous is this article?
George Foulkes seems to think the Saltire is something to be ashamed of.
Christ knows what point the Conservatives are trying to make!

Probably this decision to change the trains livery is less to do with politics than a reflection of the spirit of the age.
219

Media 1,

cape town 01/08/2008 17:48:50
There is nothing wrong with branding the trains in a saltire, except that its a complete waste of money.

The problem in Scotland at the moment is this;

The country is free, but its depicted by the SNP as a sad and miserable slave to England.

Scotland is wonderful and affluent, but its depicted by the SNP as a shokcingly poor relation of England.

Salmond is the man behind the down trodden speech and his freedom fighting approach is a little worrying.
220

Richardinho,

01/08/2008 17:53:16
#245 You're hardly in any position to comment since you don't actually live here.
221

Boggle fey the Bog,

01/08/2008 18:16:38
245 Media 1,cape town 01/08/2008 17:48:50

The 'problem' in Scotland at the moment is:

since 1707 the Scots have had very little say in the way their country is run, and is being run.
There are parallels in the former Union of South Africa.

The country is free, but it is depicted by the ANC as a sad miserable slave to Colonialism.

South Africa is wonderful and affluent, but it's indigenous people are depicted as being equal citizens by the ANC.

Mandela is the man behind the down trodden speech and his freedom fighting approach is a little worrying, so we had better put him on Robben Island for twenty five years.
222

GM,

01/08/2008 18:18:06
SHOCKING SCOTLAND
------------------


In a disgraceful pro-nationalist move today in Scotland -

Trains were painted according to their ongoing maintenance schedule!!!!

The colour scheme, adopted whilst labour/libdems were in power is a SALTIRE!!!!

ITS ALL THE SNP's FAULT!!!






























Oh how I laughed.
223

GM,

01/08/2008 18:21:04
@#1 AM2

"Yes, the SNP’s cynical “gradualist” agenda will have been at work here. It’s rarely far below the surface."

Am2 would you care to comment on this part of your post and its relevance (or otherwise) to the train livery story you've posted it to?



I await your spin and obfuscation in an attempt to defend your own error (again).

How about just once, detailing that you are sorry with what you posted since it has nothing to do with the SNP or 'creeping nationalism' as if it is something to be ashamed of?
224

AM2,

Scotland,UK 01/08/2008 18:32:00
#249 GM

Nothing to do with the SNP? Please check your "facts". The design agency (Redpath) initially pitched to Transport Scotland in March last year. But according to The Drum (www.thedrum.co.uk) they’ve been working on the brief for just under a year.
225

Media 1,

cape town 01/08/2008 18:39:25
Boggled by the fog
#247

You suggested that Scotland has been run by an outside force since 1707, forgetting that she has been part of a union in which she is an equal parter with four other nations.

There are no parallels with Scotland and South Africa and to suggest as such is primitive thinking indeed. As a Scotsman you have always been allowed to vote, walk the streets without a pass book and visit any restaurant you want, the same was not so for the majority in SA during the apartheid. To try and draw a comparison between yourself and the average black man in SA during apartheid is typical of the sort of SNP conditioning that is taking place. You have become one of their blindfolded (I'll do anything for freedom)crew. Scotland is free and she always has been!

Mandela was not the one who brought freedom to SA. You know as well as I do that the end to apartheid came as a result of the end of the cold war. Britain and America no longer needed to worry about the Soviet funded ANC. Mandela is a good man, but over here he is not as popular as men such as Oliver Thambo, Walter Sisulu or the very celebrated Steve Biko. All of whom were fighting for freedom within a system that denied them rights.
Salmond is no Biko or Mandela, he is merely an opportunist nationalist with a chip on his soldier and he will do anything to see his face on a new Scottish bank note.

Independence is required when a nation is subjected to oppressive treatment by a ruling party who treat them like second class citizens. But it is harldy needed in a country in which freedom is a right, food is plentiful, jobs are an abundance, the transport systems work, the roads are maintained, the crime is within the borders of international acceptance and you can vote for whoever you want without intimidation.




The country is free, but it is depicted by the ANC as a sad miserable slave to Colonialism.

South Africa is wonderful and affluent, but it's indigenous people are depicted as
226

GM,

01/08/2008 18:39:43
@250

and what do you think the pitch contained?
227

GM,

01/08/2008 18:41:55
SO c'cmon AM2,

is the livery part of an "SNP agenda" or do you now concede that it was more likely to have been a simple marketing decision made with basically no political interference?

Although I suppose given you are a rabid unionist, then any company, corporation or public body that uses the saltire anywhere is simply down to the SNP gradualist agenda...!

lol
228

AM2,

Scotland,UK 01/08/2008 18:57:59
#253 GM

You're misrepresenting my position. It looks like a really good livery. The Saltire is a very appropriate starting point for such a design. I understand the rationale for unifying the design. I don't agree that it will be a waste of money, at least not in the longer term.

But of course there's a political agenda at play. We've had the rebranded Scottish Government, efforts to remove union flags from public buildings, to replace .gov.uk website addresses with .sco, and so on. This is entirely consistent with that.
229

GM,

01/08/2008 19:05:29
@AM2
"We've had the rebranded Scottish Government, efforts to remove union flags from public buildings, to replace .gov.uk website addresses with .sco, and so on. This is entirely consistent with that."

It MIGHT be consisent with it, but that doesn't *PROVE* what you state in post #1.

cant you at least admit you COULD be wrong and that there is an equal chance (in my view almost 100% chance) that it had nothing to do with the SNP or creeping nationalist agendas?

All the indicators support simple rebranding and your own paranoia is on show for us all today.
230

GM,

01/08/2008 19:07:37
ach well,

I really must go - wife is gonna kill me...

have a good spin AM2 - please dont delete any of these posts - and try for once to admit you may have been a bit over zealous with your contribution at post #1

goodnight!
231

Miss H,

01/08/2008 19:08:45
AM2 don't you think you are being a bit mad and paranoid?

According to the Drum Redpath initially pitched to Transport Scotland in March last year, winning the business in a pitch against Leithal Thinking.

It's about advertising not politics.

Of course they will have cashed in on the feelgood factor associated with the saltire - and obviously the Commonwealth Games probably has something to do with it as well.

But at the end of the day it's not a political story except in the mind of George Foulkes who even you must admit is bonkers.
232

Andrew.,

Oxford 01/08/2008 19:25:36


Absolute nonsense.

That's not a Saltire. It's the registered trademark of The Halifax. You can even see the heads of the staff making up the "X".




233

AM2,

Scotland,UK 01/08/2008 19:35:09
#255 GM
#257 Miss H

I'm human. It's always POSSIBLE that I'm wrong.

But they're protesting too much. Stewart Stevenson said the proposal came from Transport Scotland, who said that work on the design had "started" before last year's election. Why bother even saying that?

And those statements aren't quite consistent with the Drum report which described the design as having taken Redpath under a year to complete.

Further, the SNP's obsession with national symbolism is well established (executive vs government, promotion of one flag over another, fixation with web address endings not having .uk in them, etc). If Newsnight Scotland picks up on this story, I wonder we'll be treated to the delightful Christine Grahame. It's right up her street!

Meanwhile, if you want to accuse me of paranoia you would have to extend that allegation to the Labour and Conservatives spokesmen, George Foulkes, Cathy Jamieson, Annabel Goldie and a number of other commentators.

So sorry to disappoint. While it's "possible" that I'm wrong, I'll stand by my earlier comments, thanks!
234

wherthefahkowee ,

On a slow coach to Oban 01/08/2008 19:38:11
If this new livery means that the trains will run on time and the food onboard will be edible, then I'm all for it!
235

Alberto.,

01/08/2008 20:02:13
My! My! how this Governmenting job is turning out so easy for the SNP, and now Lo! and behold, they even find time to get out their train set and play games - just when I was beginning to think they were likely to be getting ‘On the Ball!’ - but sadly not so!!!

Presumably, all this 'Colouring in' exercise has been checked with, and approved by the well known EU (final takeover time is nearly upon us) - especially as to who gets the Contract for the job, and supplying the paint, before another great Political financial ‘slip up’ emerges?

White coaches with a big Red Cross on would seem more appropriate, considering the Political financial situation we hear so much about - and with a large ‘slit’ on the top of each one for donations! How madly contemporary is that - eh!

Has this move really been cleared by the EU as they themselves may already have 'greater plans' for all EU transport vehicles - wherever, and, regardless of any 'assumed' great ideas, from the minions within the ‘States under their control’ - the 'body parts' of the whole caboodle, it doesn't take much to see who will conquer doubts in the issue!!!

Steady on Mr Salmond - or whoever, the EU, once fully installed will be King of the whole set up!

Best I think, if, as a ‘local’ Politician - within the eyes of the EU, greater concern for the railway system operating in Scotland, should be given to the more important things that matter to ‘the Rail Customer’ above all else - ‘a fair price for using ‘our’ services, good frequency and timekeeping - and always clean and very comfortable rolling stock - inside and out!!’

A train made up of coaches, no matter how attractive and colourful in outward appearance, if they don’t make the grade on the above points will be considered as much use as a chocolate teapot - as they say!!

Considering how we are always hearing the Political bleating of ‘No Funding’ - the mind boggles as to how such a move as having a ‘colourful train set’ to play with
236

,

01/08/2008 20:14:18
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
237

The Canadian,

01/08/2008 20:23:13
What a stunning victory by the SNP in Glasgow East. Let us hope they can achieve many more victories in the years to come as it is clear that Scotland is in need of some radical change on so many levels.

238

Miss H,

01/08/2008 20:48:19
259 AM2 - It was Henry McLeish who first suggested rebranding the Scottish Executive the Scottish Government.

The other politicians you mentioned commented because they were asked for a comment. Why were they asked? Because crazy George Foulkes must have put out a press release about it. I expect he will also put in a whole series of FOI requests to find out at what point it was decided to go with the saltire branding and what involvement ministers had in that decision.

Far be it from me to offer advice to unionists but that level of paranoia does make you look a bit potty. Even pottier than Christine Grahame.
239

JH,

Dundee 01/08/2008 20:56:16
I speak english ergo I am British. Tell that to the Canadians, Australians, Kiwis, Trinidadians, Jamaicans, and any other formerly occupied territory.

BTW
Media 1

Come visit the many parts of our potentially wonderful country where trickle down economics haven't worked, Kirkton, Whitfield, Wester Hailes, Drumchapel and see just what the Union has meant for Scotland. We have the potential to be so much more, but as long as our economic policy is tailored for the old metropolis, we'll never make that potential
240

The Strategist,

01/08/2008 21:13:31
The very fact that the Scotsman even bothered to write an article on this subject tells you that the unionist establishment is now running scared.
241

Richardinho,

01/08/2008 21:13:49
And another thing- has the Scotsman ever thought about doing something other than asking George Foulkes for his tuppence worth for their pi--sh poor political stories?
242

Alba Gu Brath.,

01/08/2008 21:17:12
NEWSFLASH:


It has just been discovered that the SNP has a nationalist agenda.

This has come to light after the shock horror of Glasgow East when John Mason was exposed as a "hardline nationalist," a source close to Labour said, "how dare these people have a nationalist agenda."

Suapicions about this have been whispered since the SNP became The Scottish Government in May 2007 in their earth shaking election triumph over Labour.

"I would not be surprised if they are considering holding a referendum on independence," said the source close to Labour.








ALBA GU BRATH.
243

The Canadian,

01/08/2008 22:05:25
265
We have English speaking and French speaking Canadians and once the Italians have children, who speak no Italian then they naturally become English Canadians if English is the language they speak.

What is strange or odd about assimilation?
244

Pilrig.,

Livingston 01/08/2008 22:08:10
Screaming Lord Foulkes rants again.
245

Nikostratos,

01/08/2008 22:16:39
#269

Nothing if you want to become part of the Borg


http://www.trekmania.net/diplomatic/borg.htm
246

Pilrig.,

Livingston 01/08/2008 22:16:46
269 - oh we had a go at assimilation here. It was pronounced by the powers that be that Scotland had no history of any worth. The language which most of us spoke was deemed 'slang' (the diddy who runs the Taxpayers Alliance still believes that), the other language Gaelic was discouraged and deemed a waste of time and money.

247

subrosa,

01/08/2008 22:26:53
# 259

Oh AM2, I tend to agree with Miss H that a little paranoia is creeping in somewhere. I listened to the whole programme on BBC Scotland this morning and George Foulkes stuttering and stammering about creeping separation etc. Shameful behaviour from him but at least expected. As the the interviewer, who had obviously been primed to agree with Lord Foulkes, he was even more pathetic than oor George.

Does anyone know where George Foulkes acquired his Scottish accent btw? He was born and educated in England. That is not an anti-English remark but I would be interested to know the answer. The Scots who have gone to England to be educated have usually acquired an English accent.
248

The Canadian,

01/08/2008 22:26:57
272

The vast majority of Scots left Scotland to make a better life for themselves and in order to do so they assimilated into English speaking society in all its forms and at all levels.
One thing they retained were the words/names Scot/Scotch/Scottish as they had financial value for them.

249

The Canadian,

01/08/2008 22:45:14
76
Of course the Scots, English speaking Canadians, and Americans are English/British culturally and linguistically.
Frisian is spoken in the North of the Netherlands where English originated but neither the Frisians nor the English understand each other today.

The English and the Scots have no difficulty understanding what each person says when they speak.
250

Nevsky,

Moscow 01/08/2008 23:12:01
273;

Not sure about his accent but we know how he makes his money...another socialist taking the cream:


The Sunday Herald can reveal Foulkes racked up nearly £45,000 in overnight costs for staying in a London flat he inherited from his late mother. "Netta" Foulkes bought the Lambeth property in 1980, months after her son was elected to Westminster. Property records show he acquired the flat months after her death in 1999, and took a mortgage out on it four years later. He went on to claw back around £45,000 in "overnight subsistence" for staying in the flat while on Lords' duty, claims that coincided with a flurry of activity in the property market. In 2005, he sold one Edinburgh property and bought another in the capital for £305,000 , without a mortgage. He sold his home in Ayrshire for £600,000 - a deal that made him a £400,000 profit - and bought a cottage in Maybole for £280,000, again without a loan. His London abode also appears to be the business address for his work as a director and political consultant with Carrick Court Associates, which makes £50,000 per year.

251

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 01/08/2008 23:35:38
I believe the trains are regularly repainted. Perhaps the unionists would them to be rust-pocked bare metal.

One other thought is that trains are occasionally the subject of paint graffiti vandalism. As I cannot recall the Saltire ever being vandalised or burned and is universally regarded in Scotland as an object of pride, I think its incorporation into the livery of the trains may actually bring a reduction of paint vandalism. This may have the effect of reducing the cost of painting the trains over time.

To have a standard livery through out the country seems sensible. I think all commercial enterprises tend to promote uniform branding of their products.
252

Boggle fey the Bog,

02/08/2008 01:10:34
242 Boggle fey the Bog, (deleted post)
01/08/2008 17:09:47

Here is my deleted., by the blue pen of Unionistaism' ,post at #230 ,01/08/2008 14:57:43

"230 Boggle fey the Bog,
01/08/2008 14:57:43
138 Methalions,01/08/2008 10:16:20
Aye but still the same paranoid obsession from AM dux and his 'Saltire blue train' pen of censorship!!!
Seems he don't like being told he's full of rubbish!!
My early morning post has been the subject of the censors pen, why? as usual no reason given.
maybe it was my last phrase which ran along the lines of: full of rubbish"

although I did say it in German, so are we now to assume that Unionistas have not forgave the Germans for WWII?

If you can't take the heat get out of the cufking Kitchen morose ones!!!



AMdux,and ewer ilk , do you not realise that attempted suppression (i.e. censorship) is counter productive.

You are dangerous, because you have no brain.

How long will this last?

So how long before the hootsmaun admits it is censoring free thought?
253

The Pict.,

Canada 02/08/2008 04:31:12
# 275 Canadian. No The English can't understand when we Scots speak unless we speak in English. When we speak Scots unless you're Scottish you won't understand much. That's why ENGLISH sub-titles are added the SCOTS films. And Gaelic ( English spelling )-- no way. You don't seem to know anything about Scottish culture. Perhaps you can read up on it or better still go over when the Highland games are on. That would be a good start.
Slainte mhath.
254

MichScot,

USA 02/08/2008 05:02:27
I think it's fantastic! Why are so many of you ashamed to be Scots? Generic is soooo boring!

And why should I spend my money to visit Scotland if it is just like, say, England, or France, or the USA, or anywhere else, for that matter?

Be proud of your heritage. You have NOTHING to be ashamed of.

I could continue, but you get the idea.
255

Pilrig.,

Livingston 02/08/2008 10:20:16
275 - so Scots are linguistically and culturally English/British ? Well now we know. North Britain rules ok.

Scots and English have no difficulty understanding each other ? You must be confining your movements to rather refined circles !
256

Alberto.,

02/08/2008 12:16:05
#256 cont'd to complete..........

Considering how we are always hearing the Political bleating of ‘No Funding’ - the mind boggles as to how such a move as having a ‘colourful train set’ to play with can have, currently, any place at all in Political thinking or concern - monetary or otherwise!!

Unless, of course, it is being used as some kind of Political ‘cover up’ for other failings - not unknown in the particular field, and a skill on its own!
257

Arrow,

edinburgh 02/08/2008 13:57:42
Daily Telegraph today

Meanwhile, and in another pathetic example of Scottish Labour’s malaise at present, Lord Foulkes, one of their more prominent MSPs, has complained about ScotRail’s plans to paint their wagons with Saltire emblems.

This experienced politician and former minister — who should know better — reckons this is part of a dastardly SNP plot to hasten the advent of independence. What absolute rubbish.

The Saltire is Scotland’s flag — not the SNP’s — and if Lord Foulkes doesn’t know that he should remove himself from the frontline of national politics as gracefully as he can.

sound advice my Lord. perhaps it is time to bow out and open another bottle of claret.
258

,

02/08/2008 17:09:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
259

Haggismaker,

North Bohemia 03/08/2008 15:48:58
Good God! Why not, when it's time to paint the trains again, have them with a bit of Scottish colour? Get off your high horses, the lot of you, and celebrate a bit of pride in our public transport!
260

YoBlair,

Somewhere under the rainbow... 05/08/2008 10:17:18
Waste of money. The repaints on First Scotrail's fleet just recently completed will probably last until the end of the franchise, if not longer (some paint jobs, such as the original NSE colour scheme on First Capital Connect's units, are as good as the day they left the factory). There's no need to spend good public money on a rebranding exercise. I personally liked the previous livery, which had a depiction of Scotland (of sorts) in the logo. What concerns me is that blue doesn't wear well: British Rail blue faded terribly, as has - in some cases - NSE blue. If this is a vinyl application then the problem may be made even worse, resulting in a national eyesore which is uniquely Scottish. This is just another waste of money (money which would be better spent looking after Scots) intended to score some nationalist one-up points.

As for "watchdogs" claiming this will reduce "passenger confusion", is it not that hard to look on a station display board to see which train and which platform you want? And what about passengers in destinations served by Scotrail outside of Scotland (e.g. Newcastle)? Might not passengers there find it a bit confusing to see a "Scottish" train in an "English" station? I highly doubt that Scots are that simple that it isn't possible for them to listen to announcements and follow the signs at railway stations. And why do they have to do away with SPT's wonderful carmine and cream livery? Now that was something, a decent livery which wore well and wasn't used with nationalist undertones.

 

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