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Brown: Scotland to get more tax powers



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Gordon Brown addresses the Scottish CBI
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Published Date: 05 September 2008
GORDON Brown, the Prime Minister, completed a remarkable U-turn last night when he signalled his willingness to allow the Scottish Parliament to set its own taxes.
He used a key speech to Scottish business leaders to say Holyrood should be given the power to raise money as well as spend it, in order to make it more accountable for its budget.

At the moment, Holyrood gets all its funding from Westminster – and Mr Brown said this was a "problem". With it due to receive £30 billion a year by 2010, Mr Brown said a "critical part" of Sir Kenneth Calman's review of the way Scotland is governed would be to tackle what he regards as Holyrood's lack of accountability for its spending.

Addressing a meeting of CBI Scotland in Glasgow, the Prime Minister also made clear his annoyance that the funding was provided regardless of the effectiveness of the ruling administration in running a strong economy.

He said that while he was "not going to prejudge" the Calman Commission's work, he saw "one problem" with devolution. "The Scottish Parliament is wholly accountable for the budget it spends, but not for the size of its budget. And that budget is not linked to the success of the Scottish economy.

"That is why we asked the Calman Commission to look carefully at the financial accountability of the Scottish Parliament. And this is a critical part of Calman's remit."

While the Scotland Act allows Holyrood to vary income tax by up to 3p in the pound, the so-called "tartan tax" has never been used, because any party imposing a higher rate north of the Border would be sure to face the consequences at the ballot box.

Since the SNP came to power in the Scottish elections in May last year, the Westminster government has become increasingly angry at having to take the flak for collecting taxes – then seeing the Nationalists spend them on populist schemes.

This has left Labour without any credit for managing the economy – thereby providing the funds – and has fuelled the perception in England that Scotland is being subsidised by the rest of the UK. The SNP has also been able to blame London for providing insufficient cash if it finds itself unable to pay for all its proposals.

The SNP said Mr Brown was now "singing a different tune" in the wake of Nationalist gains at Holyrood and Westminster.

A spokesman for Alex Salmond, the First Minister, said: "Only last year, Gordon Brown was rejecting all calls for any increase in the powers and responsibilities of the Scottish Parliament. Since then, we have had SNP success in the Scottish Parliament election and in Glasgow East, and now Gordon Brown is singing a very different tune.

"The more economic and financial responsibilities we have, the better Scotland can do – it is essential that we have the ability to grow the economy, and that means real fiscal autonomy, not just assigned revenues."

Tavish Scott, the new leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, said he wanted the Prime Minister to talk "the language of home rule". He told The Scotsman: "If he has woken up to the demands for greater tax powers, then that is progress. I want the Calman Commission to be radical, and the test of Brown will be whether he tries to water it down or whether he is prepared to implement real and lasting changes."

The Prime Minister used his speech to deliver a full-frontal attack on the SNP, accusing it of having a "bleak, separatist obsession" and of being guilty of "self-indulgent posturing".

He said the "simple arithmetic" of the Union with England resulted in the Scottish financial services sector alone generating more money than the rest of the Scottish economy did with the European Union.

The Prime Minister also ruled out cash handouts to families struggling with soaring energy bills. It was thought ministers would unveil plans for handouts of up to £100, following talks with energy companies.

But government sources last night said ministers would now focus on long-term proposals including support for energy efficiency measures.

Mr Brown said there would be no "short-term gimmicks or giveaways". Ministers were "working up proposals" with utility companies but these would be focused on reducing bills in the long term.

David Thorburn, the CBI Scotland chairman, urged the Prime Minister not to impose a windfall tax on energy firms.

Mr Brown, who spoke of a desire to "free Britain from the dictatorship of oil" provided by foreign nations, said the national demand for oil would reduce by 20 per cent by 2020 as a result of energy-saving policies.

But he committed the government to extracting as much oil as possible from the North Sea and announced that a 139-turbine wind farm off the Cumbrian coast had been approved.

A relaxed Mr Brown joked with the audience of more than 800 guests at the Glasgow Hilton, before going into the meat of his speech, that he believed Churchill's maxim that "politicians usually got it right after trying everything else". He then stuck to his prepared text but won only brief applause.

MORE COVERAGE

TAX: Clegg clears way for Liberal Democrats to do deal with SNP on local income tax

INDEPENDENCE: Hoy attacks politicians just as Brown holds him up as best of British

ECONOMY: Bank holds interest rates amid fears of recession

OPINION: Salmond takes gamble on 'middle Scotland'

The late Donald Dewar, Scotland's first First Minister, with the Queen at the opening of the Scottish Parliament on 1 July, 1999
The late Donald Dewar, Scotland's first First Minister, with the Queen at the opening of the Scottish Parliament on 1 July, 1999


Two possible paths forward, but both could be fraught with difficulties

THERE are two ways in which the Scottish Parliament can have more responsibility for the money it spends – transferring tax powers and assigning tax revenues.

Transferring tax powers is the most controversial but seen by many as the best way of giving the parliament more power over the Scottish economy.

Earlier this week, the Borders housebuilder Tweed Homes called for stamp duty to be devolved.

Other taxes which could be devolved are inheritance tax, VAT and excise duty, although these come with particular problems which would be difficult to resolve.

There have been repeated calls for corporation tax to be devolved, giving the Scottish Government the chance to lower business taxes and attract more companies to Scotland, but it is not clear whether the European Union would allow this because it opposes differential business tax rates within the same member state.

It would be much easier for tax revenues to be assigned.

At the moment, the Scottish Government gets a block grant, a set amount which does not go up or down depending on the Scottish tax take.

If, however, it was assigned all Scottish tax revenues, it could grow its budget by improving the tax take, providing a clear incentive for it to grow the economy.

The danger for unionists is that, with every tax that is assigned, so demands would grow for the economic levers to be transferred and with every tax power devolved, the demands for more would follow, until independence was all but achieved.

Mixed reception for Brown's remarks

Peter McMahon


GORDON Brown's speech outlining the government's strategy to cope with the economic downturn and his hint that he supported greater financial powers for the Scottish Parliament won a mixed reaction from guests at the CBI dinner last night.

Owen Kelly, the chief executive of Scottish Financial Enterprise, said: "I warmly welcome the Prime Minister's commitment to free competition and fair markets.

"I also think his comments on globalisation have particular relevance for the Scottish financial services industry."

Mr Kelly said that any reforms of devolution should be judged by whether they "enhanced international competitiveness" and did nothing to diminish Scotland's leading rule in the financial services industry.

Andrew McNamara, a partner in BDO Stoy Hayward, a firm of chartered accountants based in Glasgow, said: "I am not convinced the Prime Minister knows how to get the economy out of the state it is in. He made all the right noises on issues like renewable energy, but really the speech went around the edges of the issues."

Mr McNamara welcomed the idea of more financial responsibility being given to MSPs, saying: "It is essential that they are given greater fiscal authority provided they use it wisely and not to the detriment of Scotland's economy as a whole."

Allan Hogarth, a spokesman for the Scottish North American Business Council, said the UK government should do more to make sure renewable technology was developed here and not abroad. He added: "The Prime Minister did not quite explain what his position was in terms of freeing up the economy."

Mr Hogarth said that most business people would support making the Scottish Parliament more accountable for raising the money it spends.

"Business people would welcome the increased rigour that would be required from 129 MSPs if they had to consider how to raise the money they spent as well as just spending it," he said.

Former home secretary's warning

THE Prime Minister's leadership was called into further question yesterday when former home secretary Charles Clarke warned that he had just months to prove himself or he would have to quit.

Mr Clarke said there was a "deep concern" within the party that the government was heading for disaster.

He later said: "There are two essential possibilities. The first is for the performance of the government to improve significantly ... or the second is for Gordon Brown to stand down with honour."


The full article contains 1576 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 05 September 2008 1:35 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Labour Party , Devolution
 
1

the_figures_are _fudged,

Galashiels 05/09/2008 00:02:40

Bean the indicisive at his finest.

You could not make this up, how many U-turns now ?

He is just terrified he loses yet another by-election.

Sorry Bean this will not save you.
2

Vivas,

Edinburgh 05/09/2008 00:06:07
At last I agree with Toom Tabbard, plainly Scotlands budget should be linked to it's economic success. As a major oil-producer, our budget and national expenditure should reflect that. Will he now be crossing the floor to join the SNP ?

3

Guga II,

Rockall 05/09/2008 00:08:07
#1. Never mind he'll be headed round the U-bend very shortly.
4

the_figures_are _fudged,

Galashiels 05/09/2008 00:14:30
Guga, I'm betting he will be history by Xmas.
5

Alan Reid,

NZ 05/09/2008 00:14:45
"Since the SNP came to power in the Scottish elections in May last year, the Westminster government has become increasingly angry at having to take the flak for collecting taxes – then seeing the Nationalists spend them on populist schemes"

Yes, HOW dare the Scottish Goverment spend money that Scotland raised in the first place, on things that makes life a little better for the people of Scotland?

Brown is a sc@mbag.
6

subrosa,

05/09/2008 00:20:55
Have to agree with an observer on another forum - he's definitely dyeing his hair. Not that it makes any difference ...
7

,

05/09/2008 00:27:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
8

Shamus,

Glasgow 05/09/2008 00:39:04
Quite clever to give tax raising powers. The SNP WILL NOW HAVE ADDITIONAL TAX RAISING POWERS. No more additional grants from Westminster. Keeps the English happy. So who will the SNP tax.
9

Senga Jean,

05/09/2008 00:57:41
Broon has a bleak Onionist obsession. GET REAL.. SCOTLAND IS NOT A PLAYTHING. IT IS NOT JUST FOR CHRISTMAS!
10

somerferg,

perth 05/09/2008 01:15:33

#9 - don't make me laugh - grants from Wasteminster. How's about this for an idea. Stop Scotland subsidising the great unwashed of the south east and there will be more than enough money for the total rejuvenation of Scotland. This is more of the usual 'lets make the Scots think we are doing them a big favour routine" that we have been hearing for some 300 hundred years - its known as 'crumbs from the master's table'. We are better than that.
11

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 05/09/2008 01:15:40
Presumably that also means collecting, regulating and retaining royalty revenues from Scotland's natural resources.
Anything less than that makes Broon's alleged "U-turn" a complete and cynical hoax.
What a pathetic waste of skin.
12

Kimg Arthur,

05/09/2008 01:28:42
Interesting conclusion he is drawing us all towards.....that Scotland is best served by looking after herself. Perhaps this is reverse psychology though? If Brown thinks this as well, does that mean that the right thinking majority of you Scots that want this as well are all wrong???!!!! :)
13

Alan Reid,

NZ 05/09/2008 02:23:51
Shamus,Glasgow, For your imformation:
I know it's an old post, but it is relevant is it not?


The UK government has known for more than 30 years that Scotland does support itself financially. For example, Professor Gavin McCrone, Fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh, advised the UK government in 1975 of the truth about Scotland’s finances. As Chief Economic Adviser to the Secretary of State for Scotland, he prepared a report, “The Economics of Nationalism Re-examined”. His report advised the UK government that an independent Scotland would have a massive budget surplus. It was promptly classified "Secret" and suppressed. It came to light only in 2005, when the UK government was forced by law to release it. The UK government’s ‘Government Expenditure and Revenue in Scotland (GERS) report provides another example of the UK government’s duplicity. This was finally exposed by forensic accountant Niall Aslen's analysis of the 2005 GERS report. The analysis (available at http://tinyurl.com/y p7osx) was based entirely on the UK government’s own figures, with one exception for which UK government figures were not available. Mr Aslen documented the sources of all the figures. Mr Aslen's analysis exposed the UK government’s egregious misallocation – to Scotland’s serious disadvantage – of revenues (not just oil revenues) and costs.
14

Alan Reid,

NZ 05/09/2008 02:25:21
P2

Mr Aslen's analysis exposed the UK government’s egregious misallocation – to Scotland’s serious disadvantage – of revenues (not just oil revenues) and costs.

If a private firm cooked its books half as seriously as the UK government's GERS report, its directors would be in jail.

Mr Aslen's analysis convincingly demolished the assertions that Scotland was being subsidised by the rest of the UK. But the British press ignored or suppressed it. Luckily, enough people saw it on the internet before the 2007 election to discredit Labour’s claims that Scotland was running a £11.2-billion deficit. Mr Aslen’s analysis showed that Scotland actually had a £9.6-billion surplus.
15

Statsman,

Edinburgh 05/09/2008 02:59:04
19 bring them on

Spot the Labour Party activist drone.

Try thinking for yourself.
16

Goat Laybah,

This Week It's Vienna dumdeedumdeedum 05/09/2008 03:31:07
None of the ramblings of Broon matter, he will be gone shortly and he will be followed by the rest of Laybah in the next General Election. In Scotland Laybah will be reemed out of in both the Holyrood and council elections. Independence is now unstoppable

Brown should paraphrase another arrogant failure, Baron Steel of Aikwood:

"Go back to your constituencies and prepare for political obscurity ."
17

donald,

glasgow 05/09/2008 03:46:42
Yes Full and INDEPENDENT Tax raising powers.
18

donald,

glasgow 05/09/2008 03:46:43
Yes Full and INDEPENDENT Tax raising powers.
19

Pilrig.,

Livingston 05/09/2008 05:48:06
27 -"Never done a hard days work in my life" etc. posters ?

Broon, like his cabinet acolytes has never had a real job in his life - he went to university, became involved in student politics, and then onto the Labour party political machine - bypassing normal work in the process.
20

Nevsky,

Moscow 05/09/2008 06:20:22
27:

The same unionist whinge that was spouted before devolution; country would be ruined, companies would leave etc etc etc..yawn yawn
Who do you hold responsible for the state the country is in at the moment just out of interest?
21

Nevsky,

Moscow 05/09/2008 07:40:39

35:

Not sure what you are talking about. I have never been to Benidorm in my life neither have i ever taken anything from the state.

If you are so concerned with this problem in Scotland why not try (along with 36) and do something about it.

Guess it's easier to whine and moan and blame others though.

22

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 05/09/2008 07:45:59
An Open Letter to PM Gordon Brown:

Banks have the unique privilege of creating money "out of thin air" and are not concerned whether it's spent wisely or wasted - to long as the interest gets paid on the nail. We, the people, should ask the Scotish Government to investigate this as it's something Westminster will never do. The idea of money standing proxy for real goods and services exchanged should be most useful and and an improvement on barter-methods. I think it should be the Scottish Government's job to issue and regulate the Scottish Currency to keep it this way. (This is a minority opinion.)

Gordon woke up this morning "with a desire to free Britain from the dictatorship of oil"

(it's called the wishful thinking blues and is there a cure for it?)

Well yes. The pioneers arose in the United States, naively believing that the Constitution was not merely "a piece of paper" and that free thinking was encouraged (and even funded). The likes of Nikola Tesla, Buckminster Fuller, Adam Trombly had vision! Then used their analytical training and local craft skills to build and demonstrate technology that works. It may be that Independent Nations rather than military run superpowers are the ones to advance this.

Scots have invested £42M in informatics, robotics and bionics (all singing an' dancing to the Undertone's song-book). I'm sure we could find another 42 to purpose-build a facility in a breathtaking scenic location (well it works for nuclear submarines) to prove (to the world) pollution-free power from zero point vacuum fluctuation.

See! Scottish Independence would be the best thing yet to happen to England and all their world cup Olympic asperations.
23

davydee,

Edinburgh 05/09/2008 07:47:56
Watched newnight last night with the 3 stooges 1 of whom could be the next labour leader well if thats the best Labour can do SNP should not worry heard the same old rhetoric about trying to connect with the people again and we need to learn lessons on why we are unpopular the reason you are unpopular is because of your stupid policies the corruption at Local&National level and the tthey ill never return like the tories at the next election Labour will be pushed into third place and the new lABOUR DREAM WILL BE OVER
24

Jambo Dave,

Edinburgh 05/09/2008 07:57:55
This is why you should SNP. I t was the same 20 years ago,a strong SNP and they are forced to give you more crumbs sometimes even a crust.Its the only way to get our proper share.Vote SNP whether you agree about all there agendas,if you live in Scotland and you want a fare share do the sane thing and vote the Scotish party.
25

MacGillicuddy,

05/09/2008 08:06:57
Broon has performed so many U-turns he has clearly become disorientated. However, providing he does not perform another on tax raising powers every little helps Scotland on its unstoppable road to Independence.
26

Cam3,

05/09/2008 08:16:34
Unbelievable. I've never actually witnessed such incompetence in a govt. They change their pants at least three times a day - and why not? - as Labour seem to base every 'decision' on changing strategies to TRY and beat the SNP.

Now. Theory time. Remember Brown's comment on the Calman stitch-up? Devolution is a 'two way process'? The unionist meeting of SMP and MPs in London?

I reckon Chairman Bean will press, as he know's hes going to, for a stripping of planning powers for Edinburgh - i.e. decisions on renewables and NUCLEAR - and use this wee move to suggest it has to be give and take...

...when in fact it's about stripping this SNP govt. of powers the Labour party simply never anticipated they would have.

Brown should move his cabinet to St.Petersburg and be done with it.

SEE THROUGH IT SCOTLAND!
27

Cam3,

05/09/2008 08:17:45
By way of a question? How can the Calman stitch-up be sold like this to the Scottish people when the govt. THEY ELECTED are NOT invited?

It's like having a TV debate and basically asking one of the four chairs to be quiet for the 'discussion'.

HOW is this possible?
28

thinking,

Scotland 05/09/2008 08:17:59
#12
In what way is Scotland subsidising the south of England? Having family down there I know they pay more in council tax than here for starters.
#17
Perhaps Scotland could go it alone financially, except, MSPs don't seem to do so well as they need two or three times as many of them to do the same job and that means more costs thus wiping out any financial advantage
29

terry osser,

morden 05/09/2008 08:19:37
i want scots irish and welsh to have full independence. then we can have english constituency MPs in westminster only
30

Nevsky,

Moscow 05/09/2008 08:24:59
48:

Why wait for us to do it? Vote for it in England instead of moaning to us about it.
31

jtdx,

05/09/2008 08:25:16
Its Shetlands oil that subsidises Scotland and the rest of the UK. Think how much richer everyone in Shetland would be if the got rid of the lot of you!
32

morris,

edinburgh 05/09/2008 08:26:12
What has Brown conceded here exactly?

Are we talking about the retention of part of the taxes we raise in Scotland now being the responsibility of Holyrood (in which case we gain nothing except money which was ours anyway)
or

are we talking about additional tax raising powers which already exist at 3% according to the existing arrangements,in which case we are being taxed more when we are already being conned out of 400 million in council tax rebate which has mysteriously become a separate item from the block grant when it was clearly itemised in previous years, but has mysteriously become a total only, thus facilitating this disingenuous claim.

42

Salmond is an economist.

He has more than a clue.You however declare your own stupidity with that remark!
33

Nevsky,

Moscow 05/09/2008 08:29:59
jtdx:

Whalsay should declare independence and get rid of shetland, think how rich they would be!
34

cabrach loon,

inverness 05/09/2008 08:34:42
par for the course - Westminster will squander the oil as fast as they can have it pumped to pay for broons wasteful spending, unaffordable wars that are of no interest to the country, northern rock, the NHS computer gift to the consultants etc. Woe to Scotland!
35

MacGillicuddy,

05/09/2008 08:37:00
#43
Yes I do, which is CLEARLY more than you have.
36

Skatedad,

05/09/2008 08:40:43
We are all DOOMED!!!
37

eric,

lothian 05/09/2008 08:42:02
Save the Union !In a couple of months hahaha,Hilarious,
The English Voters will loath him for that remark.
38

morris,

edinburgh 05/09/2008 08:42:31
50

Shetland is a part of Scotland and given by Norway as a marriage dowry.She is not a country and would not be recognised as anything other than part of Scotland by the international community,

International aggreements exist as to what is and is not recognised as a country.Shetland would have to negotiate any seperation from Scotland with a Scottsh government which had the power to do so. That would require Scottish independence as a pre requisite as far as I can determine.

Shetland could find herself seriously disadvantaged since even if she could become a separate nation she would have no right to any services provided by the Scottish taxpayers.That would mean she either provided her own, or deal with England or Norway, who have no intention of ever claiming what is legally SCOTLAND.
Scotland would become a separate country so no air ambulance or hospital services, sea rescue etc.
Perhaps if you realised the oil belongs to the nation whose territorial water it lies in, it would help.
The oil is Norwegian or Scottish. It belongs to Westminster as long as Scotland's parliament remains in part at Westminster.

Why the blazes would you want to harm Scotland anyway?
You live here (well I presume you do anyway, although you are clearly not all here)
39

Nevsky,

Moscow 05/09/2008 08:44:28
43 bring them on:

You clearly consider yourself as someone who knows more about Scotland, the economy and government than Alex Salmond.

I suggest you stand for a political party and then make a pitch for First Minister.
40

MacGillicuddy,

05/09/2008 08:45:53
#57
I note you've been riding shotgun on this story all night. Do your Liebour masters not allow you ANY time off?
41

MacGillicuddy,

05/09/2008 08:47:05
#57
I have NEVER received ANY state welfare benefit in my life.
42

Nevsky,

Moscow 05/09/2008 08:47:33
57:bring them on

Yes to see 1 comment that could be described as intellectual from you unless you consider saying Alex salmoond has no idea what he is talking about as an intellectual contribution.

Not exactly Marx or Engels or Smith or Hobbes are you?
43

Jock Politicaljunkie,

Glasgow 05/09/2008 08:48:55


Rearrange the following words into a well known phrase:

"TO" "A" "DANCING" "JIG" "SCOTTISH"









44

morris,

edinburgh 05/09/2008 08:50:24
53

You asked Do you think he knows what he is talking about?If you did not want answers why did you ask?


According to opinion polls quite a lot do, and if being an economist is not a good start then pray tell us what qualifies you?

I'm sure a man of your debating skills and eloquence can provide us with excellence.
45

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 05/09/2008 08:52:12
The PM may have promised the Scottish Parliament knew devolved tax raising powers to please some English voters but it is highly unlikely that his party will win the next UK General Election to carry this out.

Whatever party wins the next UK General Election, it must introduce more financial accountability at Holyrood.

IF, the Conservative Party does win the next UK General Election it is to be hoped it does not foolishly attempt to turn the Devolution clock back or there can only be one inevitable outcome!
46

MacGillicuddy,

05/09/2008 08:54:22
#66

IF, the Conservative Party does win the next UK General Election it is to be hoped it does not foolishly attempt to turn the Devolution clock back or there can only be one inevitable AND ABSOLUTELY GLORIOUS outcome!
47

Linda,

Edinburgh 05/09/2008 08:58:59
Suggest Brown spells out exactly what powers and finances he will allow Scottish Parliament to have then put it to the voters of Glenrothes.
48

morris,

edinburgh 05/09/2008 09:01:18
69

I think he intends to do this the other way round..The voters of Glenrothes go out and vote New Liar again and find out what they voted for afterwards.

49

The Strategist,

05/09/2008 09:02:42
I fail to understand Brown's sycophantic attitude towards the financial services sector. After all, it was those numpties that got us into this mess in the first place.

We must stop treating the banks and others with respect.
50

Nevsky,

Moscow 05/09/2008 09:02:56
68: Bring them On;

All just waiting for you to outline for us your view for the future of Scotland.

All you have said so far is..mmmm...nothing other than a weak attempt at having a go at nationalists and making dumb and spurious claims.

51

morris,

edinburgh 05/09/2008 09:03:52
68

They are not insulting you.
They are paying you a compliment!
52

,

05/09/2008 09:04:08
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
53

morris,

edinburgh 05/09/2008 09:11:47
74
Whilst I sympathise with your feelings,it should be born in mind that when you devolve a given area to Wales and/or Scotland and so on you automatically devolve that same power to England since that's what Westminster is left with.
I agree that Scottish and Welsh MPs should not vote on these matters which concern England only.You will have to take that up with Unionist Labour etc.

The perfect solution is indeed giving England her own parliament. There's one at Westminster which would be ideal for the purpose and the Scots can all return to Edinburgh.REST ASSURED we will co operate 100% in this matter!
54

morris,

edinburgh 05/09/2008 09:13:34
75

I fully intend to and the opinion polls say Im doing a lousy job of damaging the SNP.

You are doing an excellent job of damaging the Union though and I must congratulate you on this.WELL DONE SIR!
55

bluehead,

edinburgh 05/09/2008 09:14:20
Hoy is quite right,politicians are always ready to jump on some one's bandwagon,when they have done well, at one thing or another,
they are a sleazy bunch at the best of times,and there is no words to describe them at worst of times,!the labour lot that are in power are a grand example,of what people should not have for a goverment,it is horrifying to think such people are in charge of a country,it's a wonder people can sleep at night,brown and his mob are just a nightmare.
56

rab rats,

edinburgh 05/09/2008 09:21:31
#53
Bring them on

Are you saying your Mothers a bit dim

Not only do you take the pizz out of your Mother,
you take the pizz out of our Mother.
57

MacGillicuddy,

05/09/2008 09:22:18
Bring them on. Posts passim ad nauseam!

Says it all about your Liebour Party. Please put the stress on the first syllable of LIEbour!
58

MoClana,

05/09/2008 09:23:14
#bring them on - yuo have been posting this Labour nonsense for hours now......

Why dont you go lie down before all that spin and balls your talking makes you sick.

Give us peace, Scotland is passed all the lies and fear.

Soar Alba
59

morris,

edinburgh 05/09/2008 09:27:06
80


You can ask .
I have no intention of answering though,but its for a quite different reason to the one you are about to claim.
60

MacGillicuddy,

05/09/2008 09:29:38
#85
" Three great posts there from "Scotland's Future".

Good of a Liebourite to admit that. Thanks.
61

MacGillicuddy,

05/09/2008 09:32:05
#85
I'll mention your supportive comments tomorrow when I am on the streets of Glenrothes.
62

morris,

edinburgh 05/09/2008 09:32:59
85 What were you saying about debating skills again?

Ive forgotten and so has everybody else .You have still not answered my question which is what qualifies you to cast doubts on an economist?

Is the answer so embarrassing?
Now you know why I did not answer your question.
63

subrosa,

05/09/2008 09:34:35
The 'Scotland should have more tax powers' comment was just hot air. Nothing will come of it. The excuse will be that the Calman Commission didn't agree and after all, as he said, he can't usurp the Calman Commission's findings.

It was a ploy to grab headlines as there was nothing of substance in his speech.

Don't forget there's a by-election before the end of the year.
64

Alan B,

05/09/2008 09:35:14
An amazing uturn by Brown.

It makes you look forward to Calman now. Does Brown know that it will suggest more powers and is getting in to make sure he is not arguing against Calman.

The real question is how many tax raising powers the Scottish Parliament will get.

Is anything less than fiscal autonomy workable.

Got to say it, Salmond has run rings round Brown, and Brown than said no more powers for sp only last yr has caved in.

Also it put labours plans to be vindictive and withhold council tax rebate in a complete mess. If scotland raises its own taxes the whole thing becomes irrelevent.
65

Alan B,

05/09/2008 09:37:07
#subrosa

I think Brown has realised Scotland is going independent if he does not change his stance. He realises that his whole strategy of picking fights with the snp has been lost. He is a desparate man.
66

BIG EYE,

Paisley 05/09/2008 09:39:15
Enjoying the jig to a Scottish tune Gordon?
67

Alan B,

05/09/2008 09:48:25
#bring them on

As Bill Clinton said "its the economy stupid".

We all know Scotland biggest problem and biggest failing within the union is the economy. Our economic growth has been less than the uk and other small european nations over a prolonged period of time.

You would have to be daft if you still think Westminster will address scotland economic issues. As long as the uk is appearing to do ok it does not matter if scotland is struggling. We had the disaster of the tories for 17yrs. Labour went prattling on about the north south divide for much of that time. But have done nothing to address that.

Surely even with your unionist tinted glasses on you can see turnig to an economist to address economic problems is better than turning to a lawyer etc. Most chancellors in the uk have little serious economic experience prior to the job.
68

MoClana,

05/09/2008 09:48:45
#94 ' Yes, he is an economist. So are millions of other people '

....and are all these millions of people (in Scotland?) also very able politicians? ...no? then theres your answer?

Erm, you think Scotland would not survive in Global markets, please enlighten us, what makes us uniquely incapable compared to other nations?
69

morris,

edinburgh 05/09/2008 09:49:11
92


There is no doubt that Brown made a fatal mistake in attacking the legitimate government of Scotland who can only enact on devolved matters which clearly he has no power over,either that or they have NOT been devolved.
Similarly the witholding of the Council tax rebate which is rightfully part of the Scottish Block Grant,and claiming it is not because its now a total only ,when in previous years it was clearly an itemised payment and INCLUDED the council tax rebate allowance.
Its just a pity that he had to be taught this and should have known better.

Attack Scotland's government which is elected and as legitimate as the Westminster one is rightly interpreted as being ANTI SCOTTISH.Maybe now that Brown has realised this,maybe he will tell his numpties to change the record also,Who knows?

Years ago Tam frae the Binns said this was a slippery slope.

You got that one right Tam!
The best part is you cannot climb back up.
70

Ananurhing,

05/09/2008 09:54:27
#21 bring them on,05/09/2008 03:15:40
#20

"I do not think it appropriate to attack others because they do not have the same views as myself."


For goodness sake man, get over yourself and go to bed!
You've been up all night doing nothing but "attack others" who disagree with your narrow minority viewpoint.
71

gus1940,

Edinburgh 05/09/2008 09:55:24
Just 'Running Scared'

Apologies to Roy Orbison 1961.
72

Andrew Ireland,

Blackrock 05/09/2008 10:02:32
bleak obsession? pot, kettle?

It is somewhat worrying that the alleged financial heavyweight Brown thinks that Scotland's trade with England would be damaged by us being independent members of the European Union.
73

Calum10,

05/09/2008 10:06:21
Wee Eck triumphs over Mr. Bean once more.

This is no longer a fair political contest. For pity's sake will no one put Gordon Brown out his misery.
74

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/09/2008 10:11:25
For Brown to call the SNP "bleak" is a bit rich, coming from Mr Bleak himself !!
75

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/09/2008 10:13:26
#8 wrong gender
76

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/09/2008 10:15:58
#16 bring them on

Which Brown are you talking about? We are all discussing the PM. Keep up!
77

morris,

edinburgh 05/09/2008 10:16:51
94

Scotland would be governed by whoever Scotland elected.

We don't know who that is after the independence of Scotland is declared ,and recognised (which it will be).WE were formerly a nation .WE return to a recognised legitimacy older than the UK.

Its therefore pointless to discuss what Alex Salmond would do ,beyond the transformation period government.
Our position would be much as it is now subject to acceptance of EU terms which would certainly not be any less than they are currently. The EU is not daft,and will know that we expect a deal which is acceptable.
Post independence Scotland would possibly return a Labour government in which Henry McLeish was Prime Minister for all we know.Since we dont know who, why ask anything about a PM until we do know who he/she is ?

Salmond may decide he has done his bit and withdraw for all I know immediately after the horse trading with Westminster stops.
I presume like his party his raison d etre has been fulfilled as far as the political arena goes, but maybe he will decide that he wants to continue.Only he will be able to answer that one.
Our foreign policy will be that of the elected Scottish Prime Minister.We don't know anything more than that.

78

Border Scot,

05/09/2008 10:18:53
#102 - If Scotland were to adopt the Euro then there is every chance that trade could be significantly damaged as it would automatically make all Scottish imports into England much more expensive. And the financial servicessector in Scotland - currently our most successful industry - would either have to move south or subject itself to the control of a foreign (ie English) financial services authority. Either option is pretty unappealing.

And, of course, there is absolutely no guarantee that Scotland or England would be an automatic member of the EU. At the very least there would have to be negotiations around a Scottish accession, which may lead to a settlement that the Scottish people may find unpalatable.

None of these things are reasons for Scotland not to be independent, but it would be nice if nationalists could admit that this is what would happen. Independence is not an easy choice and it is selling the Scottish people short to say that it is.
79

Border Scot,

05/09/2008 10:20:08
#109 - The EU will dictate the terms of Scotland's entry into the EU and it will be up to us to accept them or reject them. We will have no leverage whatsoever. These are the simple facts I am afraid.
80

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/09/2008 10:22:02
#43 Bring them on

"Do you really think Salmond has got a clue what he's talking aboot?"

Gordon Brown certainly seems to think so.
81

noswod,

Honestus 05/09/2008 10:23:35
Aye you Scotties picking over how rich you would be if only you could get rid of them doon Sooth. 70 years of economic decline awaits (Ireland 1917-1987). The oil has been sold off and what aboot the % of the national debt that would go with a privatisation of Scotland. Unfortunately the price of oil goes down as well as up. So far as Slamond being an economist ? he the man from the bank that paid £50bn for Amro bank still he would be ideal to lead the nation on another Darien expedition or the team down to Argentina to win the world cup. Union with them doon sooth is just too profitable for us.
82

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/09/2008 10:28:20
#47 thinking

A touch over-simplistic.

Try reading Niall Aslen's article if you are genuinely interested in the economics

http://www.alba.org.uk/scotching/greatdeception.html
83

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/09/2008 10:31:49
#53 bring them on:

"I hope that SNP is not relying on your debating skills to help them out."

No, but we are relying heavily on yours! LOL!!!
84

Border Scot,

05/09/2008 10:45:51
#118 - What is noticeable about Morris's post is the number of times he uses the phrase "we don't know". That worries me and it strikes me that the Scottish people will not make any decision to break-up the UK until we do know a few more things, such as:

1. Will we be an automatic member of the EU and on what terms?
2. What currency will we have?
3. What settlement will be negotiated with the rest of the UK?
4. What will the Scottish constitution be?

Of course even when we have these answers, independence will be no picnic - but at least then we will all know what we are getting into.
85

Doh,

05/09/2008 10:51:24

So a federal settlement with full fiscal autonomy draws closer - sooner or later people realise that LibDems polcies are the best way - just a pity more people dont vote for them.
86

guenevere,

05/09/2008 10:52:08
See Hoy is fed up of Salmonds glory shareing.
Search: in
Hoy 'annoyed over political debate' The 32-year-old, who was born in Edinburgh, said: "I was annoyed at getting drawn into a political debate when I'm an athlete. I ride a bike, I'm not a politician." "I have to be very careful about what I say but I stand by what I said in terms of the call for a Scottish team to be entered into the Olympics. Before you even start thinking about that, you have to show commitment and put your money where your mouth is."
87

Ribbonman,

Glasgow (east) 05/09/2008 11:06:50
#124 Its strange that people like you who support Rangers FC all seem to have a subservient and peasant mentality in relation to clinging to mother England's apron strings."oh! we cant go it alone",Oh! we would never survive without England's help". What is wrong with you people?When you sing,"we are the people" at ibrox,do you mean we are the subservient people? Get a grip of yourselves and have some confidence in yourselves as Scots and members of the Scottish nation.

The good news is that cringers like yourself are fast becoming a minority,and Independence is on its way.So! prepare to rise from your knees and put your cap back on your head. The day when Scotland takes her place amongst the nations of the earth is fast approaching.We would very much like you to be part of that nation.
88

guenevere,

05/09/2008 11:07:53
Salmond couldn't run a salmon farm let alone a vibrant country like Scotland. He rides on the backs of other peoples glory,he uses his mouth before his brain and appoints ministers who either have no basic maths skills,or are incompetent fools.
89

Andrew Ireland,

Blackrock 05/09/2008 11:08:40
Border Scot

There is no question that we would be a member of the EU if we became independent (nor that we would be eagerly welcomed by the other EU member states). We could choose to leave if we wanted but that would not be a clever choice. It is conceivable that England would choose to leave the EU which would indeed pose some difficult challenges for Scotland as well as England - but even if they left they would probably negotiate to remain part of most of the single market (like the Norwegians who comply with most of the rules better than many EU members but have no voice in how they are set).

If we are wise enough to for example cut business rates then we may well have increased trade with England once we are independent.

But at the end of the day independence only gives us the power to make choices - it is no guarantee we make the right choices.
90

AJ Fife,

05/09/2008 11:13:31
"bleak, separatist obsession"

Hardly, the SNP want Scotland to be *included* in a vibrant European community, with proper representation!

The Unionists like to avoid tackling this viewpoint however....
91

morris,

edinburgh 05/09/2008 11:13:45
121

Senior members of the EU,.(past presidents and secretaries etc) have confirmed many times over the years that Scotland retains EU membership and the break up of the UK is an internal matter and