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Brown leaves the future of Union in Wendy's hands

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Published Date: 07 May 2008
GORDON Brown, the Prime Minister, has turned his back on what could be the biggest constitutional upheaval for 300 years by saying a vote on the break-up of the United Kingdom is a matter for the Labour leader in Scotland.
Despite being an implacable unionist for his entire political career and against an independence referendum, Mr Brown said yesterday that he would leave the issue of a vote on separation to Wendy Alexander.

In doing so, he has also effectively ceded responsibility for the constitutional future of Scotland to Holyrood, even though it is a reserved matter for Westminster. The SNP has hailed this as a major breakthrough.

The change in position to support a referendum on independence by Labour and Ms Alexander means there is, for the first time, a majority in the Scottish Parliament in favour of a vote on the future of the Union.

Ms Alexander could even table her own referendum bill, calling for a public vote on independence.

As the leader of the UK party, Mr Brown could have slapped down Ms Alexander – described as "erratic" by her political opponents – and blocked the possibility of a high-risk vote.

But when asked about it, his spokesman said: "The position taken by the Labour Party leader (in Scotland] is a matter for her. Clearly, there is a debate taking place in the Scottish Parliament on the timing of any potential referendum on Scottish independence.

"The Prime Minister has always been comfortable with the strength of the argument in favour of the Union and believes that a referendum questioning the Union would be defeated."

He added that Mr Brown was confident independence would be rejected "whenever a vote happened".

The move has caused astonishment among Labour's political opponents, not least because Mr Brown has made so much of promoting Britishness and, in the event of independence, would see his Westminster seat disappear.

Nicol Stephen, the Scottish Liberal Democrat leader, said: "Mr Brown appears to have washed his hands of this issue, which is astonishing considering he is a Scottish MP and Prime Minister of the United Kingdom."

A spokesman for the Scottish Conservatives said: "Can we really be surprised that Gordon Brown is dithering? He doesn't do decisiveness."

At a news conference yesterday, Ms Alexander insisted Mr Brown was backing her by saying it was a matter for Scottish Labour. She rejected suggestions he was washing his hands of her.

She also denied she had been "bounced" into supporting a referendum by Mr Brown, or that he was being "bounced" by her. "We had close discussions over a long period," she insisted.

Ms Alexander said she had come to her decision to back a referendum because the issue had been "hanging around for 30 years", and she demanded the SNP bring its bill forward soon.

"You can't propose the break-up of the United Kingdom, then run scared of the issue for three years," she said. "It's time for them to put up or shut up."

Ms Alexander confirmed that Labour bringing forward its own referendum bill was "an option". A spokesman added that she would like to see a referendum held next year.

The SNP said it was "delighted" with Ms Alexander's U-turn.

A spokesman said: "The proof that Wendy Alexander's U-turn was an unorganised and freelance operation is confirmed by Downing Street's failure to endorse her comments.

"The political gain in this Labour Party fiasco is all for the SNP. The Downing Street statement implicitly concedes a referendum on independence is a matter for the Scottish Parliament to organise – a significant step forward. The Scottish Government welcomes that and welcomes that the entire Scottish constitutional debate is following the SNP's agenda."

Publicly, Labour MSPs supported Ms Alexander's line at a meeting of the parliamentary party yesterday. However, The Scotsman has learned there was some disquiet about the sudden decision to back a referendum.

Duncan McNeil, chairman of the Labour group at Holyrood, said: "No-one had any complaints about the decision, and we are now in a position where, as a group, we will not vote down any referendum bill that comes into the parliament."

He added: "This has actually come as quite a relief for some members."

But George Foulkes, a Labour Lothians MSP, warned: "There is an argument to have a referendum quickly to shoot Salmond's fox, but I think we need to be very careful about this."

Another senior Labour MSP was furious the change of heart had been rushed through without proper consultation. "We should have been arriving at a decision on a referendum after discussion and debate within the party," he said.

A third said nobody had seen the U-turn coming, adding: "This is a hugely high-risk strategy that could play right into Salmond's hands."

Earlier, former Labour first minister Henry McLeish warned Ms Alexander she was playing a dangerous game that could end in independence, or the case for independence being strengthened.

He said: "If the name of the game is to try and shoot the fox by having an early referendum, the danger is it could backfire and we have a result which does not suit the unionist parties but will suit the SNP – because it will be the first recorded, proper vote on independence, which will only make their enthusiasm that much greater."

Annabel Goldie, the Scottish Tory leader, denounced Ms Alexander for betraying Scotland and described the U-turn as a reckless gamble.

She said. "I am a staunch supporter of devolution and refuse to play fast and loose with our future. Wendy Alexander is dancing to Alex Salmond's jig and pandering to the agenda of the SNP."

Miss Goldie also warned a referendum could come down to personalities rather than principle, with the SNP making the campaign "Alex Salmond versus Gordon Brown or Wendy Alexander".

David Cameron, the UK Tory leader, said he was not in favour of a referendum and did not relish the prospect of being prime minister of only England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

WHAT NOW FOR CALMAN COMMISSION ON DEVOLUTION?

WENDY Alexander's call for a referendum on independence has raised questions about the purpose of the Calman commission, the panel of experts asked to map out Scotland's political future.

The commission is not due to report within a year – by which time a referendum could have been held. The biggest irony of all is that the commission has been specifically told not to look at independence as an option.

Its chairman, Sir Kenneth Calman, said it was "business as usual" but other members have questioned its role.

Iain McMillan, director of CBI Scotland, said: "The only thing Wendy Alexander and the SNP seem to agree on now is that there should be a referendum, but not the timescale or what questions it should pose.

"The CBI as an organisation resolved to leave the issue of whether there should be an independence referendum to the Scottish Parliament to decide. That is the right position."

John Loughton, who chairs the Scottish Youth Parliament, said: "I think we have to be very careful that any decisions on the staging of a referendum are taken in the best interests of Scotland. I would urge people to remember that during the ongoing debate."

Nicola Sturgeon, the SNP deputy First Minister, said Ms Alexander's comments "blew the gaffe" on the commission being a totally empty exercise.

Ms Sturgeon said: "Wendy has pre-judged the commission as a mere exercise in tinkering.

"Wendy's position is farcical – the commission may as well wind up its business now. Labour are clearly indicating that it will produce nothing substantive."

She added: "The opposition parties are in meltdown on the constitution."

More than half of Labour voters want premier to stand down, claims poll

ROSS LYDALL
POLITICAL EDITOR


GORDON Brown is under yet more pressure after a poll revealed a majority of Labour supporters feel the party would be better off if he stood down.

In the latest setback to the Prime Minister, they believe Labour has a better chance of winning the next general election if he makes way for a younger leader.

News of the poll came after Charles Clarke, the former home secretary, said that voters had the "right to expect better" of Labour, while the Tory leader, David Cameron, said he would make Mr Brown's U-turn over 10p tax the central issue of the Crewe and Nantwich by-election. It will be held on 22 May following the death of Labour MP Gwyneth Dunwoody. She had a majority in excess of 7,000, but the Tories believe a victory is possible.

The Populus poll showed that support for Labour had plunged four points to 29 per cent in the past month. The Tories were up to 40 per cent, giving David Cameron the biggest Tory lead in the five years of the Populus series of polls.

The Liberal Democrats were up two points on 19 per cent.

But it is the poll's findings on the party leaders that will alarm No10 more, with Mr Brown's leadership rating on the slide among all voters and running behind those of Mr Cameron and Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg.

Some 55 per cent of Labour voters say the party would be more likely to beat the Tories at the next election if Mr Brown resigned "to make way for a younger, fresher, more charismatic alternative".

The number of people trusting Mr Brown and the Chancellor, Alistair Darling, most to deal with the economic turmoil has slumped from 43 per cent in mid-March to just 30 per cent.

Meanwhile, Mr Cameron said: "Our message will focus on the 10p tax rate, and how Gordon Brown is hurting the people of Crewe with tax increases just as their cost of living is going up.

"People in Crewe know that the more of them who vote Conservative, the clearer the message will be to Gordon Brown to do more to help."

He added: "People in Crewe should ask themselves if Labour win, whether Gordon Brown will breathe a sigh of relief and think, 'I've got away with it' and tell (Labour rebel] Frank Field and anybody else to get lost."

Meanwhile, writing in Prospect magazine, Mr Clarke, an arch Blairite, said that "good leadership matters" and suggested a mini-Budget was the best way for the government to reverse its unpopularity.

Mr Brown is known to be drawing together a series of new policies on housing, health, education and the constitution to be unveiled next week.

Mr Clarke called for an end to the "black arts" of Labour spin-doctors briefing against people in their own party, and a ditching of "dog whistle" policies, such as "British jobs for British workers" – a phrase controversially used by Mr Brown.

He also called for the axeing of plans to increase the period terrorist suspects can be held without charge from 28 to 42 days.

Mr Clarke's intervention came as Mr Field held talks with Mr Darling to demand greater clarity on the government's proposed compensation package for those losing out under tax changes.

A Treasury source said Mr Darling had given a "categoric assurance that he is intending to help as many people as possible, that he is looking at all the options and that he wants to get it right".

Mr Field has yet to decide whether to retable a rebel amendment to the Finance Bill, which he withdrew last month.

Salmond likes a flutter – and he could unseat PM

ANALYSIS

THEY were only three small words – "bring it on" – but they could have enormous repercussions for Gordon Brown and the future of Scotland and the United Kingdom.

When Wendy Alexander, the Scottish Labour leader, issued her referendum challenge to Alex Salmond on Sunday, she performed one of the most significant U-turns in Scottish political history, which could ultimately end with the break-up of the UK.

But with so much at stake, why is the Prime Minister allowing Ms Alexander to continue with brinkmanship that could lead to an outcome he abhors? And why has he apparently put his and Scotland's fate in the hands of a leader whose poll ratings are rock bottom? Indeed, many are even confused as to whether Wendy Alexander even intended to make the announcement.

The question marks over Ms Alexander's ability to lead in Holyrood and the recent donation scandal have shown her hands may not be the safest.

Many believe the policy change looks like a panic measure on the back of appalling local election results in England, and an attempt by Ms Alexander to neuter the SNP before a 2010 general election, and reduce losses to the Nationalists.

But it also gives the impression Mr Brown has lost authority and his acolytes are now trying to fill the vacuum he has left in an effort to fight political opponents north and south of the Border who are circling in for the kill.

It was a hugely disorganised change of direction, with Ms Alexander apparently speaking to almost nobody, least of all her fellow Labour MSPs, before announcing she was backing a referendum.

Unionist colleagues in the Conservative and Liberal Democrat ranks are surprised and bewildered. Ms Alexander has broken faith with them after they agreed the Calman Commission on devolution would be the best way to map out new powers for Scotland.

But, as much as it appears that Scottish Labour and Ms Alexander are making up the new policy on the hoof, this has changed the political landscape of Scotland.

We now have the two biggest parties in Holyrood supporting a referendum on independence. This means a vote on separation will happen unless Labour once again turns full circle – something the events of the last few days shows you cannot rule out.

The gamble is that this will kill off Mr Salmond and the SNP for a generation. But what a gamble.

And if the famous gambler Alex Salmond wins, Mr Brown will find himself without a job by default and the UK will be finished.

Page 1 of 1

 
1

Angus Ogg,

07/05/2008 00:00:08

McAvities Cat
Has Dumped Wendy Like That
The Harpie Has Moaned
And Is Out On Her Own


Any bets on who is sacked first? Bendy or Brown ?
2

Moshie Al-Harrods,

07/05/2008 00:12:17
Sandy wants to watch out for Phil-the-Greek's henchmen!
3

Wisnaeme,

wisnaethere 07/05/2008 00:13:39

Hmmm. Reminds of how 'Nero' fiddled whilst Rome burned.

.
4

Truely English,

07/05/2008 00:13:41
It is extremely important that we save the Union for the good of the people of Scotland. Just look at what happened to Africa once we left.

Their education systems failed through lack of money and the Civilising effects of the English language and culture were often not taken into account.
5

Tris,

07/05/2008 00:15:18


Am I dreaming all this or is it really happening?

It's more like a panto than the average panto.

Amateur or what?
6

Colkitto,

River Clyde 07/05/2008 00:19:19
Going by Labour comments, a referendum is now inevitable. It's only the timing of it to get agreed.
7

Cpt Incredible,

Edinburgh 07/05/2008 00:19:29
Whenever it happens, a vote for Independance should be a must for anyone with Scotlands interests at heart.
8

beckypumps1,

Fife 07/05/2008 00:20:04
5
England will be fine when we hand control back, I cant see England turning into a ruleless African type state.
9

Cpt Incredible,

Edinburgh 07/05/2008 00:27:23
Alex Salmond said on TV tonight that he beleives England are capable of Governing themselves. I'm not so sure, as they rely heavily on our subsidies.
10

Wisnaeme,

07/05/2008 00:29:05
Post 3.

Aye, right enough. The honoury President will be having a 'debate' with the SPEC of Embra Toon over this affront to their dignity, no doubt. The lights will be on into the wee small hours in the big hoose in Charlotte Square over this.

...and ah'm nae referring tae Bute Hoose either.

.
.
11

South Gyle Prisoner,

Edinburgh 07/05/2008 00:29:40
Hang on a minute I've sussed her game, its a cunning ploy... if we vote for independence we get Gordon Brown back!
12

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 07/05/2008 00:30:15
I do hope that the 'news' we've been hearing about Wendy doing this because Gordon is now weak, is for once correct, because if it is, there is no way the majority of Labour MP's in England and Wales will stand for it, on a matter of what to them is principle.

The principle being that in no way can their members in Scotland be seen to take charge of their own affairs.

A, Because they can't be trusted to do anything right, (which is true).

and

B, The tail cannot be seen to wag the dog, especially when it might effect them as well.

and

C, Things just aren't done like that, are they!

Stand by for civil war in the Labour party.
13

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 07/05/2008 00:35:04
The Ranks are split

English labour 0

Labour 1
14

the_figures_are _fudged,

Galashiels 07/05/2008 00:35:04
What leadership from Bean.

One of his minions makes a decision and he immediatley turfs her out on her ear.

It may be the inevitable, it may be what the Scottish people really want, but Bean can not condone it.

What happened to "Listening to what the people want" Bean ?
15

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 07/05/2008 00:38:26
Labour vote in Scotland ?


Ha haaa hah h haah ahhaaahah hhahhahah hahhaahah
16

Vivas,

Edinburgh 07/05/2008 00:42:30
As a believer in independence myself, I suppose it's possible that Wendy's bluff/ploy could achieve her desired result. But it's very hard to imagine exactly *how*.

It's like one of these open-air mazes you get with the big high hedges on all sides ...and Wendy is going to have to take all the correct twists and turns in one go. No turning back, no dead-ends. She'll require more luck than judgement to pull this one off.
17

Vivas,

Edinburgh 07/05/2008 00:45:48
#17 Peter ...did you hear her Newsnight comment tonight ? That SLAB could not sit on it's hands on this issue ?

Yet we only have to go back 2 months to when they all sat on their own hands in the Scottish budget at Holyrood ... and couldn't even support their own ammendment in the final vote.

Turkeys voting for Xmas :-))
18

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 07/05/2008 00:48:29
5 I have had more civil conduct with Senegslese, Gambians Namibians,Ugandans and Kenyans than any english I've met.

These english barbarians were running around killing each other when we were ornamenting highly decorated symbolism via Celtic Christianity books listening to four thousand year old tales of our ancestors songs. We then attempted to teach them how to write, it took them four hundred years.

What imperial cludgie did you slop oot from?
19

Mac Gill-eathan,

Its a secret 07/05/2008 00:50:36
The Union Ram it! Give the Russians Military Bases in our Sea lochs & watch Westminster & its Scottish lackeys tremble, RAM THEIR UNION!!!
20

catgut,

pomona 07/05/2008 00:50:58
David Cameron, the UK Tory leader, said he was not in favour of a referendum and did not relish the prospect of being prime minister of only England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Where is he going to get the Scottish seats to claim he is anything other that a English tory party?

How can the analysis state that ‘ The gamble is that this will kill off Mr Salmond and the SNP for a generation. But what a gamble’
Have labour got some policies that the people of Scotland nowadays support?

Let us have the vote it gets rid of wars, submarines nuclear power and the tories all with one yes or should it be yes yes yes yes!!!!!!!!!!!!
21

Vivas,

Edinburgh 07/05/2008 00:57:05
I invite you to have a right good belly laugh at this comedy piece in todays Times from Tim Luckhurst, the former editor of "The NorthBritishMan"

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article3882830.ece
22

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 07/05/2008 01:02:59
Let's go SCOTLAND. I can smell the sweet clean air of INDEPENDENCE flowing over SCOTLAND already. BRING IT ALL ON.
23

JimC,

Kilmarnock 07/05/2008 01:08:00
Alex Salmond gave his timetable almost a year ago, it was crystal clear and I hope he sticks to that timetable. That was what he promised those who voted SNP and we expect nothing less. As for Wendy's wee tantrum and demands, I think her party should have her sectioned, I really thought that she was about to burst into tears on TV last night.
24

Royster,

07/05/2008 01:18:19
No problem with this as long as they close Holyrood before the referendum. Devolution just isn't working. Also, if the Scots get a referendum on withdrawing from the union, why don't the English?
25

,

07/05/2008 01:22:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
26

,

07/05/2008 01:26:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
27

Matt there,

somewhere 07/05/2008 01:29:59
"Here, Wendy! Take this lovely chalice!"
"But Gordon it is fizzing and it looks nasty!"

Will Wendy glug down her dear leader's poisoned chalice?

Probably.
28

Al Ford,

Insch 07/05/2008 01:37:02
It is unlikely that the UK PM takes the view that he is leaving the future of the UK in Ms Alexander's hands. Would you leave anything that you regarded as precious in her hands?

If the Scottish Parliament's referendum can only be of a consultative non-binding character under the Scotland Act, it could be that Mr Brown envisages following it with a Westminster referendum if the result is a narrow majority in favour of independence.

Under the present constitutional arrangements only a Westminster referendum would be binding, but a Holyrood one would no doubt be accepted without hesitation if it produced a result favourable to the UK government.

The UK government's attitude towards the SNP would thus seem to be comparable to its attitude towards the Scottish electorate in the 1979 40-per-cent-rule devolution referendum: heads we win; tails you lose.
29

Al Ford,

Insch 07/05/2008 01:45:08
CORRECTION:

It is unlikely that the UK PM takes the view that he is leaving the future of the UK in Ms Alexander's hands. Would you leave anything that you regarded as precious in her hands?

If the Scottish Parliament's referendum can only be of a consultative non-binding character under the Scotland Act, it could be that Mr Brown envisages following it with a Westminster referendum if the result is a narrow majority in favour of independence.

Under the present constitutional arrangements only a Westminster referendum would be binding, but a Holyrood one would no doubt be accepted without hesitation if it produced a result favourable to the UK government.

The UK government's attitude towards the SNP would thus seem to be comparable to its attitude towards the pro-devolutionists in the 1979 40-per-cent-rule devolution referendum: heads we win; tails you lose.
30

brian mcc,

the arctic 07/05/2008 01:47:26
Gordon Brown will be the last Scottish PM.
History may record him as a Scots loyalist.
Westminster is pondering the next snap election.

Can you get them out of Ireland as well Gordon?
31

Edward,

07/05/2008 02:07:16
Her performance on lats night's Newsnight Scotland was up to her usual classic level of abismal!
She kept harping on about having the referndum now, then when pressed by Gordon Brewer when would it likely be, she said it would take at least eighteen months, so let me think thats 12 months from now, would be May 2009, plus 6 months, thats January 2010
Sorry but isnt that the year when the SNP said they would have it?
The wicked witch of the west continually tried to avoid answering any of Gordon Brewers questions, all in all a completely pathetic performance, but one that we no see on a regular basis. Have Labour no shame in having someone like this as Leader in Scotland?
ealier in the same program, they had a taped interview with Nicol Stephens, who was decidedly not a happy bunny! He reminded one an all how undemocratic the LibDems really are by reminding that they were not in favour of a referendum and waffled on about Quebec having another referendum, someone should have a quite word in his ear as there are none planned in Quebec
32

Edward,

07/05/2008 02:29:52
Just recalling the interview with Gordon Brewer. Wendy Alexander had the brass cheek to state that it would be her and the Labour party that would frame the question for the referendum!
She really is a thick arrogant witch!
I dont want Labours filthy fingers anywhere near the referendum as they are just out to fix it for there own purposes
33

Vivas,

Edinburgh 07/05/2008 02:45:42
You may not want to sub-let an office from Henry McLeish, but he has a far deeper insight into the current state of Scottish politics and the collective Scottish mind than Wendy and crew.

To paraphrase Henry (and I'm pulling a semi-reasonable figure out of the air here), even if "only" 40+% of the voters in a 2-option referndum opt for independence, then things are changed instantly and forever. Far from "killing" the notion for a generation, instead it makes it a perfectly achievable target over the next 10 or 20 years.

This to me would be the "worst case scenario" for the SNP and for independence...That whilst the possibility exists that SLAB could indeed win a pyrrhic victory in the next 2-3 years...That it justs sets the highest independence benchmark thus far, and with further future attempts at landing the indpendence wave further up the beach with a simple 51% majority. That majority becomes a perfectly attainable target in my lifetime (and I'm 47).

Its going to happen. Its really now just a question of "when".
34

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 07/05/2008 03:18:44
BEWARE!!!!! What a DASTARDLY MOVE. Brown set up this Commission all Unionists of course, prior to his announcement that Alexander can do what she want's with the constitution. Brilliant, those MORONS can now move aroung SCOTLAND at TAX PAYERS expense spreading the POISON on our countries asperations on becoming part of the World as what a normal COUNTRY should do.It should be DISBANDED or REPORTED TO THE EUROPEAN COMMISSION for unfair TACTICS. BEWARE!!!!!
35

john z,

edinburgh 07/05/2008 03:19:45
I can just see all those greasy labour MP's from Scotland in Westminster, lining up to give wendy a pat on the back. Not!

Alex Salmond must be filled with the joys of spring, watching Labour tear itself to bits. Bendy Wendy, will go down in the history books for all the wrong reasons.

I am truly astonished at this latest piece of unbelievable stupidity from Scottish Labour. Vessels the lot of them.

As regards the timing of a referendum, I do believe that is a matter for the democratically elected Scottish Government, led by the democratically elected SNP first minster, Alex Salmond. Sorry, wendy, remember you LOST the election, you're not in the government anymore dear.

It is a joy, that after so many years, the people of Scotland are starting to see what a crowd of utter wasters the Labour party are, and the way they have sold Scottish interest down the river, just to secure power in Westminster.

Oh Wendy, reap what you sow, reap what you sow.

I'll gie her and Broon four weeks.
36

Royster,

07/05/2008 03:35:21
The responses from the SNP supporters on this board are perverse in the extreme. I thought you wanted a vote. After all, you might win. I'm a unionist but I'm hardly enthralled with the quality of Labour MSPs. Also, if the oil price continues to go up your half-baked economic arguments make slightly more sense. As with the whole sorry devolution exercise, it appears to have been on the hoof with no thought of the consequences for the country - just personal advancement and the arrogance of a party which believed it couldn't lose.
37

john z,

edinburgh 07/05/2008 03:56:16
45, Royster,

Take a wee look at the comment article in the times, as referenced above, and you'll maybe understand why so many people want independence.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article3882830.ece
Apparently, to get independence, the people of Scotland, need to ask the permission of England. And here was me thinking those poor English folk subsidised Scotland, and we were an economic burden to English tax payers.

Most analysts predict the price of oil will continue to increase for the foreseeable future, and yes, the economic arguments do make sense. Causes a lot of economic problems for England though., if Scotland becomes independent. No more cheap oil, and tax revenue. We'll let the English keep broon though.

Alex Salmond is like a breath of fresh air compared to the labour wasters previously in power in Scotland. A new SNP government, a new perspective for Scotland. At last.
38

Gammaracanthuskytodermogammarus,

07/05/2008 04:03:11
Hey Edward, basic arithmetic is obviously not one of your strong points. Either that or you do not know how a calendar works.

What a thicko.
39

Royster,

07/05/2008 04:19:45
#46. England doesn't need the oil. Sorry but it doesn't regardless of what you want to believe. Of course, it comes in handy but England would not be damaged if it ran out tomorrow; its economy is simply too big and diversified. Can you honestly say the same for Scotland? A word of warning on oil though. If the Chinese float their currency, this will slow down capital investment in China which is currently pushing the price higher. The oil price would then collapse... and I mean collapse. Now, let me see. How is the Irish housing market doing and the Icelandic economy compared to the UK?
40

Richardinho,

07/05/2008 04:35:09
'(England's) economy is simply too big and diversified. Can you honestly say the same for Scotland?'

Well that's kind of the point isn't it? Scotland has not benefited from being a dependency of England. It needs to become independence so that it can reach it's full potential.
41

donald,

glasgow 07/05/2008 04:39:59
I will miss the Bendy one. Still, knowing Labour's depleted gen pool we know another one will be along in a minute.
42

Royster,

07/05/2008 04:45:52
#49. Oh come on? The south of England has been the economic centre of Britain since Roman times. During the industrial revolution both the north of England and the Clyde benefited. For Scotland to benefit from the breaking up of the union it would have to compete with England on everything to attract business. That means 1) creating a Scottish curency and floating it (no fixed exchange rate to the Euro and the English pound) 2) much lower tax rates which naturally means massive cuts in public expenditure - kiss good-bye to your NHS (like Ireland) and your benefits. If Scotland can do this, then it can compete until that is that England decides to do the same.
43

Richardinho,

07/05/2008 05:01:10
#51 What utter garbage! The idea that because the south of england is a power house, it means that Scotland can't compete-rubbish!
That would apply to the rest of the world-and obviously it doesn't. Your whole argument is the politics of despair-that Scotland is weak and needs England to sustain it.I say if Scotland is weak, lets try something different.
44

Richardinho,

07/05/2008 05:05:30
'Shows how much confidence that the Scottish Tories in
their own country that they
believe that it would be a disaster for Scotland to become Independent.'

Although they don't all think that. David McLetchie speeking in 1999 said that an independent Scotland could thrive.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/scotland_99/news/323814.stm
45

Royster,

07/05/2008 06:03:42
#58. Your naive belief is breathtaking. I don't trust economists and politicians - and I certainly wouldn't trust a politician who used to be an economist. Use your common sense - that's all politics and economics is.
46

Royster,

07/05/2008 06:07:36
#58. Of course Scotland can't compete with England - in the same way as the UK can't compete with China in manufacturing. Scotland will have a 'one trick pony' economy and that will be oil. Then we're down to golf courses. I can't think of many small countries with large varied economies except perhaps Belgium and the Netherlands. But their populations are much bigger and their geographical situation is better.
47

Royster,

07/05/2008 06:14:01
Soar Irn Bru!
48

Damy Ruby,

07/05/2008 06:14:19
This all began with Blair agreeing offering devolution to win power back in 1997 and it was obvious that this would eventually get to this critical point in history. Couple that with an ineffectual PM who has taxed everyone to the hilt when Chancellor and then give a singled out community the chance to get out of it his mire and you end up with the situation today. The fact that the so called PM of the United Kingdom is washing his hands of it all is nor surprising because he is heading to self implode! Let them both go down in History as the worst thing that every happened to our country.
49

Blarney,

Cardonnel 07/05/2008 06:22:26
Broon is the driving force behind this, Ubendy is only his puppet. If Broon was to be seen to be pushing for a referendum, then the EU referendum would be biting chunks out of his extremly large backside.
2010 is the year for the referendum, tha's only two years away.
Ubendy claims the country is in limbo, whereas I would say the country is infact moving forward rather fast and it is the Labour party that is in limbo. I would agree that the country has been in limbo for a long time while Labour were in charge and no doubt that is exactly where they would like us to retreat to again.
If Ubendy tries to force the wording of the referendum then perhaps it should be left to an international body to do the wording, like Norway for example. And perhaps the whole rferendum could be monitored and controlled by the UN or some other Independant and impartial body.
How does that sound Labour? Maybe a little to scary for you to contemplate something being observed and run fairly?
50

acanthus,

07/05/2008 06:32:00
Royster,
You have no understanding of Scotlands ecomomy. Oil is not a one trick pony...what a stupid thing to say. Have a look at the Scottish companies who are world leaders in the field and will continue to be so (and the huge workforce)..it's much more than just oil. But if it made Norway one of the richest countries in the world with a £200 billion invetment fund (Scotland is currently £0) to rely on..we can take that and you can rely on manufacturing base (which is what/where exactly?).
Lastly you will find that competitiors win on excellence and not due to size; hence Croatia beating you at football recently.
But you will have London to subsidise the rest of the country so all is not lost!
51

yockel,

07/05/2008 06:53:46
Can I have some of what ever it is Royster is smoking, must be good stuff.
52

subrosa,

07/05/2008 06:55:24
Article by Iain McWhirter in the Guardian:http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/iain_macwhirter/2008/05/grasping_the_thistle.html
53

acanthus,

07/05/2008 06:58:56
I notice from Wendy's interview the following:

"I firmly believe the SNP should not control the timing, the question and the agenda"

Really? Well i have a funny feeling that is exactly what they are going to do Wendy, all thanks to your masterful display of political tactics lol.
54

steve 1511,

aberdeen 07/05/2008 07:00:01
wendy ,the women cannot even keep track of her bungs,never mind organise scotland future,she comes across as an infantile eejit and a dunderheid
55

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 07/05/2008 07:03:21
Union-loving Royster:

I certainly wouldn't put my trust in YOU, that's for sure!!!
56

Royster,

07/05/2008 07:06:19
#66. Of course oil is a 'one trick pony'. I don't think the world-leading Scottish companies you mention will be sufficient to provide for the needs of the local population - unless the local population is willing to accept a significant fall in living standards and entitlements. Croatia is not a major economic power. If you are willing to accept Croatian living standards without the sunshine then so be it.
57

Independence? Bring it On!,

07/05/2008 07:07:48
Royster, we feel your pain. It's not your fault. You have been well and truly shafted by the WENDY, her on the hoof policy making in the face of the mild grilling from Glen Campbell on the Politics Show has killed the Union stone dead. That one minute of blustering bravado has consigned Labour in Scotland to the midden. It was her latest 10/10 moment.

Come on feller we know that you've got Scotland at heart, come on over to the dark side. We're the happy, smiley, confident people.
58

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 07/05/2008 07:09:51
"Brown Leaves The Future Of Union In Wendy's Hands"

Kind of says it all doesn't it.

Must make all the Unionists sleep well a night knowing that there precious Union is in the capapable hands of Wendy Alexander.
59

jj veritas,

07/05/2008 07:20:02
How about a refendum on the EU Treaty of Constitution or one on the Euro. Promises, promises.
60

acanthus,

07/05/2008 07:23:07
Royster,
No, we will take they prosperity of Norway. You are an expert on the Croation ecomony i assume?
In fact Norway has a much higher living standard than the Uk (all due to a 'one trick pony' of course) and does not have a huge manufacturing base either?
Scotland should be living at least at the same standard today but we aren't, are we?
So what exactly is your point? That oil does not matter? I think you should make this point to Norway and see what they think of your brilliant assertion?
Fool!

61

Independence? Bring it On!,

07/05/2008 07:36:57
#79 Rules, you must be terrified to open your curtains of a morning. Do you exude such confidence in life when teaching the young of Dundee?
62

Royster,

07/05/2008 07:52:58
#77. Have you seen the Norwegian tax rate?
63

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 07/05/2008 07:54:33
#79

The Irish economy is suffering from house price deflation which has been happening for a over a year.

The English housing market is just 3 months into their death spiral, give it time.

Iceland is suffering from the glut of infrastructure that has been invested to take advantage of Geo Thermal resources. This created a significant imbalance in their current account which market forces are sorting out.

You may want to stop using Iceland in your comparisons as the Icelandic stock market has gone up 13% in the last month.

How these in any way compare to Scotlands economic situation is beyond me, maybe you can explain the parellels.
64

acanthus,

07/05/2008 07:56:12
79 RBNB,

What point are you making? That civil service is a secure job in any country..brilliant, ever thought of becoming an economist lol.

As for your statement 'Ten percent of homes already have no one at work' (i didn't know this) perhaps you should ask who is to blame for this?

Can you blame it on independence..no. Well done, you have just check mated yourself!

What are the unemployment and economy stats for Norway, any idea?
65

Steve,

Bo'ness 07/05/2008 07:57:47
79, yes it's a terrible indictment on the union isn't it?

Typical unionist mantra, belittling Scotland's prospects under independence, while simultaneously doing F*** ALL to improve them yourselves.
66

Royster,

07/05/2008 07:57:49
#73. Thanks for the polite offer. I too feel the pain inficted by half-witted, fuss-pot Labour politicians such as Donald Dewar. Nevertheless, I put loyalty to the UK above its constituent parts. I don't want to see an international border on the island of Great Britain.
67

PJ Walker,

East Lothian 07/05/2008 07:58:15
The first good decision Wendy has made, calling the bluff of a ranting and raving minority. It's put up or shut up. Thank goodness there will be an end to the 'I' word for at least a generation after 2010.
68

Royster,

07/05/2008 07:59:29
#82. But unlike Irealnd, interest rates in the UK are set according to the needs of the UK economy not the needs of the euri-zone economy like in Ireland. This is why Ireland is monumentally stuffed for at least 10 years.
69

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 07/05/2008 08:00:07
#79

"Ten percent of homes already have no one at work.

Independence will sort this?"

The culture of dependacy and hopelessnes that has been the hallmark of the last 60 years of Scotlands benifits from the Union will not just suddenly disappear with indepenence.

But would you not agree that solving these problems when you are dealing with a country of 5 million is easier than when you are dealing with a State of 60 Million?
70

JayJay,

Right here 07/05/2008 08:00:18
Two things struck me after yet another lamentable performance from Wendy on newsnight.
1) It seems perfectly clear that, in her mind, any referendum would require a majority vote. I see a shafting on the horizon, and it is all the more galling when we look at the likes of David Cameron crowing about securing 44% of the Council vote when only 40% of the people voted.
2) When asked to justify the Union, the best she could do was claim that "it was up to the SNP to make the case for independence".
Yes the thing I long for most is to hear Wendy's eloquent discourse on how Scotland is better off being ruled by London. She could do worse than have a read at the Evening Standard in one of their regular anti-jock rants. That is typically full of half truths and downright lies.
I do hope the people of Scotland can collectively embrace a positive spirit and despatch these London monkeys to the remains of their empire. Seems to me that Wendy and her ilk have naught to offer but the status quo and relentless negativity. We deserve better.
71

David MacVicar,

Web 07/05/2008 08:01:00
60 Royster.

You really have a nerve calling anyone naive.

After Traqair provided a detailed counter to your previous rambling post, your best argent is: "I don't trust economists and politicians".

You really put him in his place with that one!

"The south of England has been the economic centre of Britain since Roman times" You have a point there and Westminster has spent the last 40 years ensuring it stays that way. Most investment has been in the South East and has been done by taking investment away from N England, Wales and Scotland, while Scotland alone has been pumping billions into the Economy of the South, with a double whammy of Southern regeneration through Oil backed UK international loans, while rest of UK manufacturing was largely dismantled, including profitable Steel, Scottish fishing given away etc.

Deny it all you want its all in the public domain these days.

You are right that Scotlands economy is different, yet we are bound to follow Westminsters decisions 100% used to support the Economy of the South.

Royster, as someone from South of the border your position on the general superior nature of England focused on the Se Economy while promoting that Scotland should remain a region dependant on Westminster decisions also focused entirely on the South is ludicrous, disengenuous and insulting.
72

Royster,

07/05/2008 08:02:02
#88. Of course these problems are more difficult to solve with a small population because you don't have the economy of scale. People's needs, though, remain the same.
73

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 07/05/2008 08:05:04
#87

No Interest rates are set to meet the needs of London and the Southeast, and beggar the regions.

I don't think Ireland is stuffed for the next 10 years.

They are going through a very painful process of house price deflation.

This won't take 10 years to right, and in the interim that continue to attract companies from England.
74

Independence? Bring it On!,

07/05/2008 08:05:50
#85 Royster, we both know that an international border within a border free EU is a non starter. You know that Dr Reid's scaremongering of Border guards, customs, watchtowers, guard dogs etcetera was myth building best found in the pages of a Commando book.

I respect your loyalty to the UK, however I would say that the concept of the UK is organic and is currently undergoing metamorphosis. Wouldn't you feel better contributing to your country than siding with the likes of Brown and Alexander?
75

Royster,

07/05/2008 08:08:00
#90. Countries tend have a natural centre of business -usually it has been around for centuries. It normally centres around a river, some form of shelter or a resource which in turn creates a large population. Paris, London, Rome, New York, Beijing and Tokyo are the best examples. Some cities come and go - Bruges (which got silted up), Amsterdam (didn't have the economy of scale to compete with the Brits inspite of being state-of-the-art in banking, trade and finance).
76

capy,

edinburgh 07/05/2008 08:11:27
i take it calman can start his summer hols? heard the blessed wendy on 5 live last night peter allen gave up trying to get her to answer questions. ie why the sudden change of mind and did you speak to mr broon before your change of heart.interesting times eh?
77

Royster,

07/05/2008 08:13:06
#93. I'm not talking about border guards though it is conceivable that the English could impose work visas - you know... just for a laugh like. You still need to register at police stations in some EU states though not in Ireland. However, if you have a government which acts solely in the interests of Scotland, the probability is that you also get a government south of the border which acts solely in the interests of England. Nationalists will say this is already the case with Westminster but I beg to differ on that. This is not a good situation for the people of this island.
78

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 07/05/2008 08:13:06
I think the biggest economic problem Scotland will have is managing all the revenue from the oil without it driving up the currency and harming the competetivness of other Industries such as tourism.

I hope the Scottish Government has the good sense to put most of the oil revenue into a rainy day fund and into the development of Renewable Energy for when the Oil runs out in 50 years time.
79

Tommy Trout,

Alicante, Spain 07/05/2008 08:18:26
I can't make up my mind if this is Brown having a Thacher moment, as when even she declared that the Tories did not have a mandate to govern Scotland, OR does he see the fly in the ointment (Bendy) as being out on a limb and he has half sawn through the branch.
I say this because I honestly do not think this both these decisions were made from the viewpoint of either Scotland vs the Union, but purely for the self interest of Brown vs Alexander.
Shame on both of them, but they will not care as it is besiness as usual...self, self, self.
80

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 07/05/2008 08:20:00
Interesting suggestions on this site that Scotland could not compete with the South of England and that its economy was totally dependent on oil.While oil is important and could be used by an independent Scotland to provide for the future (as Norway is doing),it is not essential.Also it appears that the small independent countries are in the lead in almost any table of prosperity or quality of life,you care to consider.Finland which has the same population as Scotland(5 million) has no oil but is certainly outperforming Scotland.You better chances of surviving cancer here,lower infant mortality rates,free education for citizens and foreigners,supurb public transport and a very clean environment etc.

While the economic case for independence is powerful,it is not for me the only argument.I believe that independence in itself is a worthwhile aspiration.It makes sense in the modern Europe where small independant nations and interdependence is the norm.Our future generations will see and grasp the challenges and opportunities.

I welcome Wendy Alexanders conversion to referendum,albeit that her motives are unclear.I believe that Alec Salmond must be delighted since he has now gauranteed to get a referendum bill through parliament.He is in a win-win situation since he either gets a referendum or he can point to Labours inability to deliver what they are now promising.
81

acanthus,

07/05/2008 08:20:41
96 Royster:

However, if you have a government which acts solely in the interests of Scotland, the probability is that you also get a government south of the border which acts solely in the interests of England.

Yip, i will take that!
82

quepasache,

Caracas 07/05/2008 08:20:55
Ah my friends the joy of seeing the unionist(s) squirming in the clean fresh air of liberation.

The clanking of unionist chains slithering down into the fetid swamp of Thamesian mythology.

It's been a joyous year for Scotland and the rats are starting to split and argue.

What monsters:Tyrannosaurus Annabel, Lizard Nicol and Harpy Wendy.They will wither and die.

I am so happy for your great country. I can't wait to see your new passport.

Viva Escocia Viva Mr. Salmond and his brilliant team.
83

Border Scot,

07/05/2008 08:23:21
#97 - Norway has an oil reserve fund because the country's taxes are significanty higher than Scotland's and because the state stil owns a portion of the oil production in Norway's territorial waters. Are you proposing that in an independent Scotland we raise taxes to Norwegian levels and renationalise oil production? The first would mean all Scots suddenly having a lot less money in their pockets, the second would cost the Scottish government tens of billions of pounds (or euros).

I wholeheartedly welcome Labour's conversion to the referendum because it will means we can at last begin to examine the forensics of independence and the actual consequences, rather than the unsubstantiated, uncosted claims currently made by independence supporters.
84

Royster,

07/05/2008 08:26:50
#99. Finland has very high taxes. It also has Nokia which at present is a world leader... until the Chinese catch up that is.
85

Border Scot,

07/05/2008 08:27:44
#99 - And what levels of taxation do you pay in Finland?

Finland is not successful because it is a small country, it is successful because its government has put in place a series of taxpayer-funded initiatives. That is a good thing. But if we are to follow Finland's route we must also be told how much it will cost us. Of course, many of the areas that you identify are currently within the remit of the Scottish government. Some would argue that instead of worrying about independence day and night, that Scottish government get on with doing something about them.
86

brownlie,

07/05/2008 08:29:17
Royster

Thanks, pal, for giving us a fore-taste of the doom and gloom scary scenarios us unionists, with the help of the mass media, will be plugging right up until the referendum. Quite correct to point out that the Scots are too pathetic to run their own country and have to depend on the fatherly guidance and intelligence of the rest of the UK in order to survive. These Scots just do not appreciate how fortunate they are that we are generous and charitable enough to nurse them along when they need a helping hand.

You, wisely I think, did not mention that Scotland will not be wasting money on WMD, the magnificient dome or London's underground.

I note that you have been up since 3am and I thank you for your dedication to the cause. Not to worry - Highland/Am2/Alfred E will soon be along to carry on the good work.
87

Royster,

07/05/2008 08:34:13
#106. Well, if you can't win the argument just resort to snide comments.
88

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 07/05/2008 08:35:11
#102

Well I am afraid that Wendy has well and truly shot Federalism in the head.

Don't you think that if Federalism is a possibility it is more likely when an Independant, Scotland, England and Wales sit down as equal soveriegn states to negotiate are that they want to co-operate on.

It seems highly unlikely to occur when some parts are in a subservient positions to another part.

89

Royster,

07/05/2008 08:37:58
#109. Nothing subservient about the union. There is a seat in parliament for all constituencies and the number of constituencies reflects the size of the population.
90

acanthus,

07/05/2008 08:38:52
97 Border Scot:

Norway has an oil reserve fund because the country's taxes are significanty higher than Scotland's and because the state stil owns a portion of the oil production in Norway's territorial waters. Are you proposing that in an independent Scotland we raise taxes to Norwegian levels and renationalise oil production? The first would mean all Scots suddenly having a lot less money in their pockets, the second would cost the Scottish government tens of billions of pounds (or euros).

Again another Unionist contradicting and making a fool of himself. While Norway has it's £200 billion Scotland has £0..beginning to understand a little? We have nothing because of mismanagement of the resources, unlike Norway.

As for nationalisation there is a case for a Scottish Oil company which incidentally could be paid for by borrowing against the potential of the oil and gas fields and not payed for by the tax payer.

Just stupid some of you people!

91

Carlung,

Haddington 07/05/2008 08:38:53
Exploration of a recently discovered North Sea oilfield has revealed it is significantly bigger than was first thought.
The Buzzard field is now being hailed as one of the biggest finds in 25 years after revised forecasts suggested it may contain more than one billion barrels of oil.

Figures released in January suggest the field, 125 kilometres north east of Aberdeen, could yield around 400 million barrels - 25% more than was forecast when it was discovered.

But it must be remembered however, that this is Westminster's oil and Scotland will get a small increase in it's budget in due course
92

Alan Reid,

NZ 07/05/2008 08:40:06
The future of the Union is in the hands of the Scottish people! They only need to have some guts and vision to see that Scotland can be a FAR better country once we have cut the bonds with England.
93

Scotland to prosper...,

07/05/2008 08:40:57
The days of the unionists scaremongering about how Scotland could not survive are long are gone. The people of Scotland have woken up to the fact that their country is alive with fresh young talent and many industries in which to exercise their skills.

The unionists say we would scare off business as an Independent nation but this is not the case. Many companies in the US are getting itchy feet due to pressure from the (farcical) US Government. They have, until now, been looking to the Middle East for a base to set-up operations but Scotland, as an Independent nation, may just be the ideal location for such companies. Where better to establish yourself than in a new, developed nation hungry for success?

For too long Scotland has been blinkered by the despicable leadership of Tory/Labour governments who only interests lay south of the border (apart from oil of course). It’s high time Scotland stood on it’s own two feet and competed as an equal in the global stage.
94

Border Scot,

07/05/2008 08:43:00
#106 - And clearly pro-independence tactics will be too smear all Scots who believe in the Union as fearties, London lackeys, doom and gloom merchants, and so on. However, that will not win the argument.

To get Scots to support independence you need to show us how it is in our best interests. Pointing out that some small, independent countries are successful - without pointing out that either they do not have the cradle to grave welfare system we have in Scotland or, alternatively, that their citizens pay much more tax than we do - will not do it either.

In short, it is time for the nationalists to be up front with the Scottish people. In doing this, we will find out that:
1. The nationalists have no idea whether Scotland will be allowed to join the EU.
2. They have no idea what a final independence settlement with England will look like.
3. They have no idea whether Scotland can go it alone without materially affecting Scottish people's living standards.
4. They have no idea whether Scotland will have a good or bad relationship post-independence with England, by far our biggest trading partner.
5. They have no idea how long oil reserves will even last for.

That is the reality. And a referendum campaign will expose it.
95

Border Scot,

07/05/2008 08:47:02
#111 - And on day one of independence we will have an oil fund with £0 in it and a budget to balance. If you read the very important "Scotching the Myth" research done by the Herald you will see that Scotland will balance its books if it spends all the North Sea oil money. If we start putting billions into a reserve we will begin running a deficit from day one. If you add to that the tens of billions we would need to borrow in order tonationalise North Sea oil production, you are talking about Scotland being hugely in the red. Is this SNP policy? If so, don't you think the Scottish people should be told?
96

Ananurhing,

07/05/2008 08:47:14
111# acanthus

Last year Norway's sovereign wealth fund was £375 billion. I'm told by a Norwegian friend it's now closer to £500 billion and rising. Don't forget, this fund isn't sitting in a bank. It's out there competing with hedge funds and the like. Some rainy day fund!
97

Jardine,

07/05/2008 08:48:14
#5

I am truly sorry you can't spell.

Your education system has clearly failed YOU.
98

Carlung,

07/05/2008 08:49:26
115 1. The nationalists have no idea whether Scotland will be allowed to join the EU.

Lets shoot this old canard by pointing out that when Greenland became independent from Denmark (which was a member of the EU), Greenland had to negotiate it's way out of Europe. Scotland as part of the UK is already a member of the EU.
99

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 07/05/2008 08:54:59
It appears that Gordon Brown's only selfish concern is retaining his position as Prime Minister of the U.K. to the detriment of Scotland's future within the Union?

Allowing Wendy Alexander and the Labour Party in Scotland
to decide Scotland's future is like leaving the SPL to arrange the World Cup!

100

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 07/05/2008 08:56:12
In reply to Border Scot,taxation is quite high in Finland but people are satisfied with what they get back.What they get back is access to high quality health care,free education,high quality public transport,a clean environment etc.Finland is quite affluent,which is a feature of small independant countries in Europe.I only mention this to deflate wrong views that you can only deliver such quality within large countries.

Of course a Scottish government has control of these areas but unlike a fully independent country,a regional parliament only controls a small proportion of the countries income.The Finnish Parliament controls nearly all of the countries income and can spend it on what Finnish voters want.You can also understand that if tax is returned in the form of free education for your children,that puts money back into your pocket.On the other hand if another parliament controlled most of your income and decided to spend it on wars in Iraq,or Trident submarines,or anything that voters did not want,there would be insufficient money to pay for what they wanted.This is essentially the position that the Scottish Parliament is in.No matter how good the politicians are,they can never compete with,or deliver what an independent parliament can deliver.

I can assure you that quality of life is good here,and that Finns would never dream of giving up their independence.I also have a sister-in-law in Norway and I can tell you that the people there also have a high quality of life.I think that sometimes,people should go out into the world and look beyond statistics.I was also interested in references to Scottish and English governments looking after the best interests of their populations.This does not mean exclusively.Finland also contributes greatly to the needs of developing countries.I have some experience of that in Swaziland and Kosovo,through projects funded by the Finnish Foreign Ministry.
101

Border Scot,

07/05/2008 08:56:14
#119 - That is completely irrelevant, I am afraid. Of course, if you can point out the relevant clause in the EU Constitution (sorry, Treaty) then I will concede that you are correct. Otherwise, I think we will all have to be honest about this and say nobody actually knows what will happen.
102

acanthus,

07/05/2008 08:56:17
106: Border Scot:

1. Why would they refuse? Presumably England would be in the same position, the last thing Europe wants is countries withdrawing!
2. Unionists have no idea how the Union will adversly affect Scotland in the future!
3. The Union has brought to Scotland some of the lowest living standards in Europe!
4. With a Conservative government in Westminster, Unionists have no idea whether or not a Conservative government can maintain a good relationship with the Scottish Parliament or would seek to squeeze the Scottish people even further to the detriment of the Union.
5. We do know how long the oil will last..what we don't know is how many new resources there are..exciting huh?
103

Border Scot,

07/05/2008 09:00:25
#121 - I have no doubt that the quality of life in Finland is good. I have been there and thought it was a great country. And I have no doubt that the Finnish people are happy.

My point is that Finland is not where it is because it is a small, independent country, it is where it is on the back of very high taxation. When you discuss Finland and its achievements you should not leave that bit out. It is only be telling the full truth and giving the complete picture that the Scottish people can decide wat is best for them.

And on another point, the government we currently have in Westminster - the one that took us into Iraq and the one that wants Trident - is the one that the Scots voted for in 2005, just three years ago.
104

Royster,

07/05/2008 09:00:51
#121. You're suffering from an acute case of 'ERSS' or 'Expat Rose-tinted Spectacles Syndrome'. Ask a Finn what he or she thinks of Finland and I bet you will get a much more negative response about the state of the country.
105

Border Scot,

07/05/2008 09:01:55
#123 - So, we agree. The nationalists have absolutely no idea about how an independent Scotland will look or feel, or whether it will leave Scots materially better off than they are now. And it did not even take a referendum campaign!
106

weh,

07/05/2008 09:07:27
Note that the herald has suspended all comments on this!
107

,

07/05/2008 09:08:36
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
108

Freshford Fresh,

07/05/2008 09:10:08
Wendy Alexander is a lying, arrogant, self-important person. The day she has absolutely no say in Scottish poilitics will be a blessed relief.
109

scottishcoffindodgerno1,

Tram City 07/05/2008 09:10:20
during the strike it was pointed out that the UK government was losing £50 million a day in lost revenue.That amount to £18.25 billion per year.We only get back £10 billion per year,so who gets the rest,We are being robbed.
110

Nikostratos,

07/05/2008 09:15:22

A peculiar Scottish jig called

'The Independence Referendum'



Referendum in

Referendum out

in out in out
shake all about

Oh do the holy cokey

in out in out in out rah rah rah

Referendum in

Referendum out

in out in out
shake all about

Oh do the holy cokey

in out in out in out rah rah rah


Wendy has a plan can anyone tell what it is yet?
111

Scotland to prosper...,

07/05/2008 09:16:14
#125 Royster

That's total speculation; you can't possibly be using that as a credible argument.

When will you people wake up to the fact that Scotland has been getting a bum deal for years.

- Two of the poorest areas in Europe,
- One of the most violent cities in Europe
- Sickman of Europe label

These despicable concerns do not come about by chance, years of neglect and double standards are required for this.

Unionists shout “show me a small independent country operating successfully”. What small independent country ISN’T doing better than Scotland right now? We’re at the bottom end of nearly every social performance table.

These issues will never be addressed by Westminster, it’s up to the people of Scotland to drag themselves out of the slums of Europe and start demanding what is rightfully theirs..
112

Border Scot,

07/05/2008 09:20:41
#132 - Most small, independent countries in the world are not as well as Scotland. The vast majority do not have a cradle to grave, free at the point of contact welfare system, for a start. The few countries that are doing better than Scotland tend to have far higher levels of taxation. Do nationalists believe that an independent Scotland should raise the tax burden on its citizens? If so, shouldn't they be telling us that?
113

Nikostratos,

07/05/2008 09:20:44


....................."Wendyrendum".................. I like that one
114

Publius,

London 07/05/2008 09:21:04
#44 John Z
John. You write "As regards the timing of a referendum, I do believe that is a matter for the democratically elected Scottish Government, led by the democratically elected SNP first minster, Alex Salmond."

You are mistaken. It was the Scottish Parliament that is elected not the Scottish Government. In Parliament SNP is merely the largest single minority among several minorities. If there is to be a referendum it is for a majority of Parliament to decide, not the SNP.
115

AJ Fife,

07/05/2008 09:21:37
wee wendy is playing a blinder! She's easily the SNP's most potent weapon, just behind Mr Salmond and the ever impressive Ms Sturgeon.

The quality of Scottish Labour MSPs is simply outstanding, when you consider who they've had leading them since devolution - till dippers, cross dressers and now, 'A dinny ken whit am daein' Alexander!!!

Priceless LOL
116

izzie,

dundee 07/05/2008 09:22:39
The future of the Union in Wendy's hands ! No it is in the hands of the people of Scotland. Alex Salmond does'nt even need to comment Wendy is putting the case for independent nationhood on a daily basis every time shen opens her mouth gives that theatrical sigh and pseudo look of exasperation.

117

Truely English,

07/05/2008 09:22:39
32 & 33
How sickening and low can the person be who used the name I have posted. Is this the leve of debate found in Scotland? How come so many on this site sink to such utter degrading levels.

Can we expect anything less from those who lose the arguments in such an over-whelming way.

Long live our precious English Language which is the common bond between all Scots and English people.
118

Publius,

London 07/05/2008 09:24:56
#53 Traquir
Has some more Burns for you

O ! let us not, like snarling curs,
.....In wrangling be divided,
Till slap come in an unco loon
.....And wi' a rung decide it.
Be Britain still to Britain true,
.....Amang ourselves united ;

How does it feel to be an unco loon?
119

Border Scot,

07/05/2008 09:25:06
#133 - Yes, of course. And we will win the World Cup every four years and money will fall from the sky and there will always be jam and honey and oatcakes for tea, and the trains will run on time and traffic jams will be abolished and sectarianism will come to an end as Rangers and Celtic fans embrace in the streets and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Meanwhile in the real world ....
120

Highland Mighty,

07/05/2008 09:26:59
133. Oh, my goodness!

Here's someone that STILL believes everything Salmond says!
121

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 07/05/2008 09:27:29
#126

But we do Know what remaining in the Union will me mean.

Average GDP Growth of 1.6% (below the rate of inflation)

More Scots migrating because their is no economic opportunity at home. (Declining Population)

Europes highest rate of teenage pregnancy so they can get a council flat of their own. ( and clymidia, diabetes, heart disease etc.)

One of the highest rates of Drug addiction in Western Europe.

A culture of intergenerational welfare dependancy.

No jobs unless they are meanial, short term and dependant on tax handouts from local councils.

Nuclear Weapons we don't want.

Nuclear Power Plants we don't need.

Towns where the 2 most common shops are an off licence and a betting shop.

Interest Rates set for the benefit of London and the South East that devestate our economy.

Hoplessness and Deprivation.

#125 The Rose Colored Glasses are worn by Unionists who don't realize how far Scotland is being left behind by the developed world.
122

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 07/05/2008 09:28:17
#126

But we do Know what remaining in the Union will me mean.

Average GDP Growth of 1.6% (below the rate of inflation)

More Scots migrating because their is no economic opportunity at home. (Declining Population)

Europes highest rate of teenage pregnancy so they can get a council flat of their own. ( and clymidia, diabetes, heart disease etc.)

One of the highest rates of Drug addiction in Western Europe.

A culture of intergenerational welfare dependancy.

No jobs unless they are meanial, short term and dependant on tax handouts from local councils.

Nuclear Weapons we don't want.

Nuclear Power Plants we don't need.

Towns where the 2 most common shops are an off licence and a betting shop.

Interest Rates set for the benefit of London and the South East that devestate our economy.

Hoplessness and Deprivation.

#125 The Rose Colored Glasses are worn by Unionists who don't realize how far Scotland is being left behind by the developed world.
123

BIG EYE,

Paisley 07/05/2008 09:28:58
Oh yes the EU whose main political problem at the moment is the dependency for oil and gas in Western Europe which gives political and economic leverage to Russia is going to reject Scotland, the largest supplier of oil within the EU?. This is the most ridiculous argument unionists have put up but indicates how deperate they have become.

Scotland's position is rock solid, can't say the same about England's but I wish them well and I hope Scotland would support their application.
124

Scotland to prosper...,

07/05/2008 09:29:47
#134

The SNP are one of the more open parties with regards to their tax policy, they want to tax the public based on their ability to pay. I fail to see a fairer form of tax.

You seem to gloss over the points I raise with regards to the social concerns that plague many in Scotland on a daily basis. What use is a cradle to grave system of care if it’s over-burdened? The higher taxation you squawk on about does not impact on society as it’s relative to their earnings and standard of living.

Indeed your tax argument as a whole is a non-starter. As it stands we pay one of the highest taxes on fuel in EU/world. We have so many stealth taxes, even ministers are sometimes unaware of them. Can you really argue that we are going to be taxed less if we remain within the UK?
125

Publius,

London 07/05/2008 09:29:50
#89 JayJay

In the London elections there was a 45 percent turnout. That's very good for a local election. Mebbe we should go for directly elected provosts.
126

Phil C,

07/05/2008 09:30:26
I think a few more folk might want a say in Gordon & Wendy's cosy referendum!

I say bring it on in early 2010, then everyone's happy except the undemocratic 'no referendum' camp.
127

Miss H,

07/05/2008 09:31:04
126 Equally you have no idea how Scotland as part of the Union will look or feel in 10, 20 or 30 years time. Life is inherently unpredictable. However you either go through life having control of the decisions which affect you or you go through life allowing someone else to take your decisions for you. Which do you think provides the greater security?
128

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/05/2008 09:31:24
This is a huge blunder by Wendy.

Salmond is now over the hurdle of getting parliamentary support in principle for a referendum. Now all he has to do is manage the timing so that it is the most optimal for a yes vote.

Bring it on Wendy!
129

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 07/05/2008 09:32:47
Okay Border Scot,somewhat off topic ,but perhaps relevant to the Referendum debate when it comes.Lets give it a shot.Firstly,while many Scots voted Labour in 2005,I suspect that few of them want money raised in Scotland to be spent on wars in Iraq.The Scottish election in 2007 suggested that possibility.The next Westminster Election will be interesting

Regarding taxation,it quite high in Finland,which has no oil and fewer resources than Scotland.However,since the Finns control nearly all of their income (unlike Scotland) they can outperform any regional government in Edinburgh with considerable ease.If you put the following question to Finns

"Would you like to pay less tax if the consequence were to pay more for health care,abolishing free education,less spent on public transport,maternity leave,the environment,the health service,combatting crime etc"?

They would opt for paying more,rather than less tax.I have a Finnish Friend whoe's daughter survived brain cancer.I was amazed with the speed of diagnosis and treatment.If she had lived in Scotland,she would probably have died.My point is that an independent nation can decide what to spend their money on,as indicated by voters.Of course if voters would sooner pay less tax than increasing the chances of cancer survival in their country,that is their decision.I think that it is a choice that most people are unlikely to make.The big issue around tax is that it is spent on what we want,and that we get value for money.If Finnish politicians do not deliver,then Finnish voters have the power to change the government.Scottish voters (alone) do not have the power to change a Westminster government that they dislike (even if we all voted the same way).The next Westminster election will demonstrate that.

Definately my last blog today.I admire the energy of some of you,who seem to have endless time.Before leaving,I am delighted with Wendy Alexanders U turn.These are very interesting times.
130

Ananurhing,

07/05/2008 09:34:49
135# Niko

I prefer..... Wendy boot comes in......which can't be very far off, surely!

I can't believe she's done this without consulting her colleagues. How misled, and compromised must Labour MSPs feel? Trully desperate tactics.
What have Browne and Cairns had to say about this?
131

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 07/05/2008 09:35:09
Wendy's Newsnicht performance was dire. Not answering questions, admitting she had agreed this with Broon, but only after some questioning, then Broon denies all and says it's just Wendy. Gordon Brewer tried to prise out of her what her timetable was. A year from now assuming all started now, but it won't so it's like to be 2010 anyway which is what he was driving at - the SNP intended to hold it then anyway. Meanwhile the only credible opposition - Annabel Goldie - is perplexed at this underhand announcement as is Nicol Stephen. And who can blame them? They agreed to the Calman commission which was Wendy'as last obsession, which excluded independence for consideration.

She doesn't talk about it with her Labour colleagues in Scotland and just comes out with a "Gladiators" playground challenge type statement.

It may not be surprising if the dark powers that control these things find it in themselves now to land charges on her for her other nefarious doings and she disappears off the radar. You can hear the knives being sharpened!
132

Publius,

London 07/05/2008 09:35:32
#114 Scotland to prosper...,

You write "Many companies in the US are getting itchy feet due to pressure from the (farcical) US Government. They have, until now, been looking to the Middle East for a base to set-up operations but Scotland, as an Independent nation, may just be the ideal location for such companies"

Mebbe. But only if we abandon the high tax policies of Labour and the SNP. With LIT income tax in Scotland will be even higher in Scotland than England. That won't look good to a wealthy investor thinking of coming to Scotland.
133

Boggle fey the Bog,

07/05/2008 09:35:34
61 Royster,07/05/2008 06:07:36

" I can't think of many small countries with large varied economies except perhaps Belgium and the Netherlands. But their populations are much bigger and their geographical situation is better. "

Interesting to see you using Belgium as an example of how a small country, albeit with twice the population of Scotland, and stating it has a large varied economy (are you suggesting that Scotland doesn't?), but why are you ignoring the fact that Belgium is in a state of flux, the Flemish speaking North are actively seeking the break up of the Belgian Federation (Belgium is a Federal State, unlike the UK).

As for the Netherlands, again a different 'ball game' with 16 million of a population (more than 3 times that of Scotland), one can hardly suggest one is comparing like for like.

Your arguments of doom and gloom are demolished by this briefing from the ASI (Adam Smith Institute), a 'right wing think tank'.

http://www.adamsmith.org/images/uploads/publications/Independent_Scotland_Riches.pdf

Written by Gabriel Stein, who is Director and Chief International Economist of Lombard Street Research.

This is recent research and does not take account of the current crisis in England caused by Gordo's 'Fiscal Policy of basing the economy on debt' rather that 'tangible assets'.

and I'm not even going to mention the fact that Gordo has delayed the annual GERS statement until July, oops there you go I mentioned it. WHy the delay , is he 'massaging the figures again' because it would show Scotlands' Econmy is 'subsidising' his 'fantasist' ego that the UK actually is still a World Power?
134

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 07/05/2008 09:35:49
#139

Long live our precious English language which is the common bond between all Jamaican, Indian, Fijian and English peoples.
135

Border Scot,

07/05/2008 09:36:22
#144 - You don't really like the Scots do you. Do you think we are all welfare spongers and drug addicts?

#145 - The only way that an independent Scotland would control the North Sea oil in our zone is for the industry to be nationalised. That is not going to happen. It is the oil companies that own the oil and they will supply whoever pays for it, regardless of whether Scotland is in the EU or not.

#146 - I think you ca quite convincingly argue that we will be taxed less if we remain in the UK if what nationalists are proposing is that Scotland imitate Norway or Finland. Because the simple fact is that people pay much moe tax in both those countries, just as they do in Sweden and Denmark. Of course, an independent Scotland could cut taxes, but - again - if that were nationalist policy, we should also be told what services will be cut as a result and how many people employed by the state will lose their jobs.
136

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

07/05/2008 09:37:50
#51 Certainly agree that an independent Scotland would be better having its own currncy than using a Rest of the UK pound or the Euro.

Unfortunately though that's not what the SNP are offering us.
137

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/05/2008 09:38:36
I had to laugh when listening to Radio Scotland's GMS programme this morning. Isabell Fraser was interviewing Brian Donohoe about the Wendy U-turn. Try as she might she could not get him to say anything negative about Wendy or the referendum. In fact he sounded just like an SNP MSP. By the end of the interview poor Isabell sounded like she had gone into an emotional decline. A Unionist to the core.
138

Roy,

07/05/2008 09:39:07
'She also denied she had been "bounced" into supporting a referendum by Mr Brown, or that he was being "bounced" by her.'

The thought of these two bouncing together does not present an edifying image!
139

Border Scot,

07/05/2008 09:39:36
#151 - The simple fact is that Scotland voted Labour in 2005 and got a Labour government.

I am not arguing against hight taxation, I am arguing against only telling half the story. It is only by telling the full story that the Scots can make a fully-informed decision about independence.
140

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

07/05/2008 09:40:39
#5 "I'm a unionist but I'm hardly enthralled with the quality of Labour MSPs."

It's not just Labour - I think the current bunch of MSPs from all parties are a pretty talentless bunch.
141

Border Scot,

07/05/2008 09:42:32
#149 - You are right, I have no idea what the Union may look like in 10 or 20 years. My point is that the SNP has no idea what will happen if Scotland becomes independent; but they never seem to mention this fact.
142

Boggle fey the Bog,

07/05/2008 09:43:29
154 Publius,London 07/05/2008 09:35:32

Why are you repeating the Onionist lie of 'higher taxation' in an Independent Scotland.
As for LIT making Scotland the 'highest taxed' area in the UK, show me the 'figures'?

Put up or 'shut up'!!!

you may also be interested in this briefing, which won't suit your irrational rantings, but it is a measured and unbiased overview of an Independent Scotland and an Independent England.

http://www.adamsmith.org/images/uploads/publications/Independent_Scotland_Riches.pdf


143

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/05/2008 09:44:02
I notice the article raises the possibility of yet another U-turn in the period leading up to a referendum. If Labour did try this, it would alienate over 80% of the electorate who favour a referendum. This would further damage them in the run up to the next Scottish elections.

I still can't understand why they have caved in to Salmond's postion. Even to the extent that it would be a simple yes or no question.

Happy days!
144

oder,

never mind oil, water is the game 07/05/2008 09:44:18
48 Royster

#46. England doesn't need the oil. Sorry but it doesn't regardless of what you want to believe.

Oil is a commodity that at some time will run out, however England does need water there is insufficient supplies in England and Wales! England may get by without oil will they get by with out water? a commodity that is unlikely to run dry in the future in Scotland,we can sell it to England or they can refuse to buy and import it from where?
145

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

07/05/2008 09:45:31
#97 The biggest problem will be having absolutely no control over setting of our own interest rates.
146

bluehead,

edinburgh 07/05/2008 09:47:43
what a treat wendy is,what would the SNP do without her?when they are at it,please do something about us having to do what we are told by people in the EU
how clean the air would be if scotland was completely free of all shackles from out side interference and that includes england!!
147

JimC,

Kilmarnock 07/05/2008 09:47:43
115
More nonsense, with all the new third world countries joining the EU the UK benefits will disappear, it is already happening where the UK is placed higher and therefore less liable to the kinds of grants we have become accustomed to. As for out trading relationship with England, I think I can say it will be good, in fact it might means English companies relocating to Scotland. As for Oil, any prudent government will invest in its infrastructure and prepair for that day when it is no longer economical viable to continue production. I would also ask you the same question, what will Westminster do when the oil runs out, the UK will become a true third world country, thing is, some of us in Scotland don't want any part of it and are willing to take the future of our country into our own hands.
148

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/05/2008 09:48:42
The main priority now is to keep Wendy in her job until the referendum. That should attract a significant percentage of the "undecided" vote to the pro-cause.
149

Spanish jambo,

Zaragoza 07/05/2008 09:48:47
There are some hilarious comments on here! The Unionist Brits/English settlers among the funniest, and of course all started by taking the bait of this Britsman article! For a second my computer showed the headline:The Scotsman stabs England's Scottish prime minister in the back! Scotland can speak for itself - or is that what you're afraid of?
150

james the geologist,

Mull 07/05/2008 09:49:20
Something fishy about this whole affair. Is Scottish Labour trying to get rid of Wendy? Did she get set up for this? After all she is the best weapon in the SNPs arsenal. Alex must love her! Every time she opens her mouth the SNP gains a % point.

Nah, Scottish Labour wants rid of her. Just like they need to get rid of poor old Gordon down in London. The tories are just waiting to get into No 10. Just think. A tory administration in London - the SNP will milk that for all its worth. Labour under their current Scottish leadership offer no hope whatsoever. The only viable alternative to , what 8+ more years of Tory rule from london is a vote for independence.

The Iapetus ocean is about to re-open....
151

OldTom,

07/05/2008 09:51:18
It still strikes me, and probably most others as well, that the debate about our future remains largely in the context and sub context of "CAN we go it alone?" rather than "SHOULD we go it alone?"

And although this should come as no surprise given the scaremongering that honest Scots men and women have had to endure for hundreds of years, it does offer contemplation over our inherent personal attributes and characteristics such as the pursuit of an enlightened mind, inventivness, leadership, organisational expertise, financial prudence and most of all common sense!

Being a former Labour supporter who was once young and immmature enough to believe that the Labour Party in Scotland actually supported the people of Scotland in their pursuit of happiness, it depresses me now that a section of the Scottish electorate (ie Labour) have had never had such intensions.

To keep people in releative poverty without giving them hope or aspiration is the single biggest crime that the Labour Party (or any other orgaisation for that matter) has ever committed on the people of Scotland. And in committing this horrific insult it now appears as if their school yard bully tactic is now as transparent as ever.

They have ruled by fear and intimidation for years, whether that be in offering a choice between union led poverty or unemployed poverty, or by creating fear amongst catholics that an independant Scotand would take away religious equality or freedom of religion, whilst all the time refusing to invest in one of the greatest natural resources the world has ever seen, the Scottish people!

I am not a nationalist by any means but I am Scottish and I deeply care about what happens in my country. I care about the past, the present and more importantly, the future. The people of Scotland, under the leadership of Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon have been given hope and by God it feels good. We are now turning our energy towards making Scotland even greater in the global eco
152

OldTom,

cont. 07/05/2008 09:52:06
and utilising with vigour our greatest asset; our minds!

We will have a choice one day soon and that choice is not directly whether Scotalnd should seperate from the Union but whether we are brave and smart enough to trust in ourselves.

Of course there may be difficult times ahead in an independant Scotland, but let us not be compared to other nations such as Croatia and Ireland. We already have several multi-nationals leading the world in industry. We already have an infrastructure which in many ways is admired throughout the world. We already have an egalitarian and highly educated people. And we already have a culture of common sense and enlightenment!

It is time not to snipe and to be bitter. It is time not to implode. It is time to inspire. It is time to be brave and it is time to choose the best path to our future.

For me there is no choice between living in fear or living in hope. And with the great assets at our disposal we should look to the future together with a smile on our face and not the scowl of an uneducated bully!
153

KampungHighlander,

07/05/2008 09:55:53
#157

No, I just take off my Expat Rose Coloured Glasses every time I come back home to visit.
154

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/05/2008 09:59:53
Did anyone hear wee Nicol say that this made the Calman Commission even more important?

What planet is he living on?

155

izzie,

dundee 07/05/2008 09:59:57
Can anyone explain what would happen to Labour's plan for a referendum if Wendy was no longer Leader?
156

Calum10,

Dundee 07/05/2008 10:01:17
The most amazing thing is how bewildered and angry the Unionist media and Unionist hacks are over this U-turn by Wendy Alexander on an independence referendum.

The Scotsman, the Herald, the Sun, the Daily Record, the Daily Mail, Daily Telegraph, Daily Mirror, the Courier, the P&J, etc, etc, have all invested heavily in Wendy Alexander.

Wendy Alexander was expected to be the arch-Unionist leader in Holyrood put there to out-think, out-maneuver and out-play Alex Salmomd and the SNP. She has been a disaster from day 1.

But still the Unionist media continued with a policy of reinforcing Wendy's abject failure because they all thought the SNP would never be able to get their nationalist agenda passed by the Scottish parliament. How wrong they were.

The manic Wendy Alexander has bounced a weak and indecisive Gordon Brown to back her 'hairbrained' scheme, but in doing so the PM has acknowledged the 'primacy' of the Scottish parliament and the 'sovereignty' of the Scottish people to decide their own future.

No one, no one, especially the SNP, expected that. London Labour, Westminster and Whitehall has effectively turned it's back on Scotland. The Union has been dramatically weakened over the past few days.

It is no wonder Unionist newsmedia and Unionist hacks are bewildered are angry. Their investment in Gordon Brown and Wendy Alexander has been wasted and they have no one to turn to to save their precious Union.
157

brownlie,

07/05/2008 10:01:17
142 Highland

Morning Highland, how's Morag. Not a good idea to castigate some-one for believing Alex Salmond. You keep repeating his tongue-in-cheek statement that 25% support independence so, obviously, you believe him.
158

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

07/05/2008 10:01:56
There has been a lot a talk about small countries being successful - the problem is though that how they achieved that success. There is no point in using Ireland or Norway as examples of successful independence because they have diametrically opposed economic models. Let's be honest we can all name smaller (and larger) countries that don't have successful economies - it is a meaningless debate.

At the end of the day the Scottish economy can only succeed with a Scottish solution. All this talk of other smaller countries is a red herring. If we are to go down the independence route then we had better make sure that the economics are right. Far too much of this part of the discussion is based on back of an envelope calculations - by both unionists and nationalists.
159

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 07/05/2008 10:03:17
Okay border Scot,I thought that I had examined both sides of the coin.I think that since I need to do some work,we can drop this one.I will be an interested observer later in the day.

I am fascinated by the increasing evidence that Wendy Alexander did not think very clearly before making her very welcome U turn.Things are starting to get very interesting.After the May elections last year,I suggested to my Finnish wife that Scottish independence was about 15 years away.It looks a lot closer now,We will see.At least poiltics are less boring these days.
160

BK,

Cyberspace 07/05/2008 10:05:52
#5 Truely English
True, I would hate to see England going the way of Zimbabwe when they leave the Union and have to rule themselves!
161

Highland Mighty,

07/05/2008 10:07:29
167. Are you suggesting it doesn't rain in England? The recent droughts they had were only in the south where there is little room for reservoirs, N England had little problem and Cumbria is awash with natural reservoirs!

The solution for the south requires north and south canal networks to be linked and this is being done as we speak.

As for oil, only the nats think this is what is going to make us all rich. They actually believe current sky-high oil prices are here to stay (ignoring that the historic average is $100 less than current prices!) and that it will last forever (ignoring that multinationals are already pulling out and that the markets see production as peaking in 1999, that it will only drop from now on and by 2020, NS oil production will be almost negligable compared to today's rate).

Financially, due to the high prices, oil taxes today bring in £12bn a year. Although a decent amount, is certainly not vital to the UK budget of £550bn as nats repeatedly claim, is also unsustainable and is expecting by most to revert to the norm of £4bn a year within a few years.

Of course, the response from the nats will be abuse and a repeat of the claim by ONE researcher that oil will last for decades yet due to 'undiscovered but known reserves' whatever that means.
162

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/05/2008 10:08:16
#102 Rules

"Scottish problems are unlikely to be solved by independence."

I agree. Scottish problems will be solved by kicking Labour out of power at Holyrood and replacing them with a highly competent SNP Government.

Wait a minute, that happened last May!
163

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 07/05/2008 10:08:19
It is likely that a referendum really cannot be held until 2009/2010 at the earliest. That will be just months before a UK General Election where more than likely it will be apparent that the Conservatives are going to win and convincingly. The referendum will be used as the last chance to kick Labour before they are turfed out and as they will be promoting a 'No' vote that 'Yes' vote will receive an unintentional boost.
Another factor will be the turnout. Who is going to be more enthusiastic voters the 'Yes' or the 'No'?
It is a very strange 'strategy' by Wendy. And seems to me to be coming from a frustration and desperation. You would expect such an announcement to have come at a formal press conference after having been discussed at the highest level. At her side should have been the Scottish Secretary, her shadow cabinet, even the Prime Minister and the Chancellor. Instead she dribbled it out to Glenn Campbell on a Sunday morning programme and the plan only firmed up over the following days. It is just so unprofessional from a party in government in the UK and who seeks to be in government in Scotland.
I don't know what the vote for independence 2 years from now will be but I think it will be nearer 40% than 20%. Once the ball has been set rolling it cannot be stopped. If the vote is within 10% short of a majority it will not end matters as the SNP will keep pushing to cross the line. It will come sometime. At the moment the SNP has greater patience and staying power than Labour.
164

Highland Mighty,

07/05/2008 10:08:54
181. Please keep up.

It's now only 19% support for independence.

The lowest ever.
165

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 07/05/2008 10:09:18
#175 Old Tom

Well Said.
166

Ananurhing,

07/05/2008 10:10:05
From todays Torygraph

"But there was increasing speculation today that Mr Brown might seize control of the referendum, by claiming only Westminster has the authority to conduct it."

Oh please let it be so! This is the Labour meltdown that just keeps on giving.



167

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/05/2008 10:10:59
What will be really interesting in the referendum campaign is to see the real economic numbers, especially the revenue associated with North Sea oil. I assume that Westminster will be obliged to open their books for scrutiny.
168

Edward,

07/05/2008 10:13:49
#188 Highland Mighty
That will be the very same poll that also gave support for indpendence at 29% and 25% depending on how the question was put
169

Edward,

07/05/2008 10:16:35
#191 connaughtboy
We already know through a slip up that the industry admitted that from the Forties Field alone, it generates something like £ 50 million a DAY!
This was admitted during the Grangemouth strike, when they had to turn off the Forties pipeline
A little something that Gordon Brown didnt want us to know
170

Highland Mighty,

07/05/2008 10:17:23
191. Are you one of those conspiracists that actually believes the independently-auditted GERS is rigged?

192. Jeez, how many times. Where did you get "29%" from? It's 19% for a multi-option poll and it's 25% for a straight Yes/No.
171

Highland Mighty,

07/05/2008 10:18:48
193. £50m a day = £18bn a year and that is total revenue, NOT taxes which are considerably less.
172

shivago8,

livingston 07/05/2008 10:20:07
Opens her mooth before her brain is in gear,
What an embarrassing woman she is.
Wendy please go back to being a housewife again and start looking after yer bairns and take that big brither Gordon with you.
One family giving Scotland it,s biggest heedache ever recorded in history
173

Scotland to prosper...,

07/05/2008 10:22:24
#188 High and mighty

If you were to actually look at who were asked, 475 out of 1175 identified themselves as Labour supporters (40% of people asked).

Hardly surprising the outcome then is it.

Stop looking that front cover...tw*t
174

Liz,

Edinburgh 07/05/2008 10:25:44
Well, Wendy is certainly going to get her place in history. I predict this is all going to backfire in speatacular style and she is going to be exposed as the ineffective lightweight that she really is.
Scotland will become independent and personally I do not think it is neccesarily a good thing for any of us.

Many on here obviously have wet dreams about this coming utopia and "freedom" from some illusion of oppression but personally I do not share your enthusiasm.


175

Yeti,

07/05/2008 10:26:00
Looks like she made the decision without telling anyone. Labour in London must be spitting tacks :)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/1931889/Wendy-Alexander-didn%27t-tell-Gordon-Brown-of-plan-over-Scots-referendum.html
176

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 07/05/2008 10:28:59
#195 Highland Mighty

It does not matter what the tax rate is now, an Independent Scotland can tax it at any rate they want.

Some countries even have taxes as high as 90% on oil production.

Here in Indonesia the average is 60% of the total less capex.
177

Highland Mighty,

07/05/2008 10:29:22
197. So YouGov, the world leading polling company, got it wrong? I suppose they are part of the 'Global Conspiracy Against the SNP' too? Get a grip.

And TNS is absolutely right I suppose? (Can we see their calculations?)
178

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

07/05/2008 10:29:33
#193 But that £50 million does not go straight to the Treasury - that is the total value of CRUDE oil pumped through. Although the Treasury PRT is at 50% this is only after the deuction of various reliefs, principally for royalties paid and the costs of exploration, development and production in that field. For example, the current relief for getting a field to production stage is 35%. This implies that after such reliefs and costs are deducted then the actual take by the Treasury is much lower than 50%.
179

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 07/05/2008 10:30:31
Highland Mighty gleefully reports the support for independence now stands at 19%. The difficulty is that we are not holding the referendum 'now' but in about 18 months time. Maybe in September 2009. Elections are rarely held between October and March because of dark nights and bad weather. It is a risky gamble to think it will stay at 19% until then. A lot can happen in the meantime.
As far as I understand the SNP proposed referendum is not a vote on independence. It is to seek the backing for negotiations leading to independence. These negotiations could well produce something short of full blown independence but acceptable to the SNP. The Austro-Hungarian model of the 19th century or a confederal (not a federal) model.might be agreed. There is a whole range of compromises; common currency, defence arangements, national pensions arrangements, that might be agreed but granting sovereign powers to the respective national parliaments. Wendy's referendum and Salmond's referendum look alike from a distance but at close examination one is chalk and the other is cheese.
180

HughB,

Edinburgh 07/05/2008 10:31:09
The Scotsman gets it WRONG, WRONG, WRONG again.

The future of Scotland and the union has never been in Wendys hands, and never will be.

The future of Scotland and the one-sided, fake union rests with the Scottish people.
181

acanthus,

07/05/2008 10:31:31
198:

'The SNP remains a one policy party (we should ignore the cosmetic-only add-ons Alex is taking from others)'

This just shows you for being a goon really..most stupid statement today, congratulations!
182

Scotland to prosper...,

07/05/2008 10:32:19
#202

The YouGov poll got nothing wrong, they detailed their raw data just they should.

You were the one who got it wrong by spouting facts and figures before reading all the information available. A typically Labour tactic I might add...
183

 Ayrshire Scot™,

07/05/2008 10:36:27
203. Indeed, but the UK treasury forecast (based on prices c. $30/b not the current >$100/b) is for £56 billion in revenues from oil over the next 8 years.
184

Alfred E. Neuman,

07/05/2008 10:37:19
A principled decision by Brown, but the thing is that Wendy Alexander is a moron and incapable of anything more demanding than being an admin clerk at the council.
185

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

07/05/2008 10:38:56
#204 You are correct that a lot can happen - one just has to look at Brown 7 months ago - 11% ahead in the polls - now look at him. Any government, be it at Westminster or Holyrood, can never be fully confident about its future continuation.

The Nats in particular have potential banana skins before the next Scottish election and a future referendum. LIT is a minefield that they will have to tread carefully through. Another potential area for problems is balancing their budget - relying on efficiency gains is gamble that Swinney has made. If he pulls it off he will go up in my estimation as he will have achieved something no politician in this country has ever achieved before - almost double the savings made by any other government. If he fails to achieve this then undoubtedly he is going to have a problem - something would have to give to maintain the flagship policies such as the Council Tax freeze.
186

acanthus,

07/05/2008 10:41:47
203. Indeed, but the UK treasury forecast (based on prices c. $30/b not the current >$100/b) is for £56 billion in revenues from oil over the next 8 years.

Goldman Sachs have predicted that prices could well reach $200/b by the end of this year, which is an effective doubling of the revenue!
187

Goggles Molloy,

Travelling Steerage 07/05/2008 10:42:17
Well done Wendy - hope you got a sweetie?

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/wendy-alexander-goes-to-toilet-by-herself-20080507931/
188

Alfie Bett,

07/05/2008 10:51:11
#64 Blarney, I'm inclined to agree with you,I cannot for the life of me see this vain silly woman doing this off her own bat,she has a history of slavishly obeying her master,and Brown has a history of mendacity,sleekitness and control freakery, a well matched pair.As you say Brown can distance himself from it otherwise he would be pressured into a referendum on the Lisbon treaty or any other future contentious EU agreement.
This nonsense about the country being in limbo is merely to disguise her fear that the SNP is doing a far better job in government and she knows is seen by the people to be doing so,more than she could ever hope to aspire to.
It will be interesting to see the reaction of the Tories and Lib/Dems after they have consulted their respective London bosses,will they go along with Alexander and risk being seen as pawns used to try and save Labour's neck or will they take their chances on a referendum in 2010/11,in which case will Labour still be in favour of a referendum or will there be yet another U turn.
189

WeThePeople,

Glenrothes 07/05/2008 10:52:21
# 36 Al Ford:

Take note of this, especially the last sentence -

'greater power can only be granted to Scotland by the UK Parliament and here there is potential for conflict. To take the extreme example, constitutional matters are reserved but it is hard to see how the Scottish Parliament could be prevented from holding a referendum on independence should it be determined to do so. If the Scottish people expressed a desire for independence the stage would be set for a direct clash between what is the English doctrine of sovereignty and the Scottish doctrine of the sovereignty of the people.'

SOURCE: 'The Operation of Multi-Layer Democracy', Scottish Affairs Committee Second Report of Session 1997-1998, HC 460-I, 2 December 1998, para 27.
190

Nikostratos,

07/05/2008 11:09:14
#167
"England doesn't need the oil. Sorry but it doesn't regardless of what you want to believe. "

'Needing' and 'wanting' are two different things entirely.

Are you single and without children. Because if you were married and had children you would know the difference believe me


191

Publius,

London 07/05/2008 11:10:14
#197 Scotland to prosper

Stop bashing YouGov. They got the London mayor election result exactly right. Hardly any polling organisation has ever got a result exactly right.

Where political polling is concerned YouGov is the best.
192

Geoff,

SA 07/05/2008 11:10:42
Good day to you all-havnt had time to read any of your posts-just the headline. My gut reaction is that Gordon Brown is not fit to be Prime Minister of the UK. I have voiced some sympathy for his difficulties in the past but this is the last straw. The future of the United Kingdom should not be in the hands of the knee jerk whims of Labour politicians. They are a disaster. I happen to favour a referendum-have done ever since I first started posting on this forum but it needs to come in an atmosphere of reasoned debate. Everything even remotely tainted with the words Gordon brown/Nu Labour is going to give that issue an immediate disadvantage. Gordon brown should do the honourable thing and resign.
193

Conan the Librarian™,

07/05/2008 11:11:10
216
Is your glass always half empty Dan?(I know Charles Kennedy's is).
I'm more optimistic for Scotland's future than I have ever been:-)
194

 Ayrshire Scot™,

07/05/2008 11:12:10
216. Daniel

there lies the typical Unionist attitude. Why all the doom and gloom? The Scottish people are more than capable of making an informed decision on the future of our country. And are more than capable of running our own country successfully.

It is surprising that Unionists think in these terms, when the Czech and Slovak republics, emerging from 50 years of a dictatorial command economy managed their process to independence very smoothly and successfully - why do Unionists all think Scotland, we her massive advantages, cannot do the same? It shows an inferiority and sense of incompetence on their part, but they should accept that as just personal and not assume the whole country suffers from it.
195

Publius,

London 07/05/2008 11:14:36
# 165 Boggle
"As for LIT making Scotland the 'highest taxed' area in the UK, show me the 'figures'?"

Income tax in Scotland for high earners will be 42 per cent under LIT. In England 40 per cent. QED.
196

acanthus,

07/05/2008 11:16:32
218:

Not last time they didn't:

“Online polling has persistently radically understated Ken Livingstone’s support. A YouGov poll on the eve of the last mayoral election gave Ken Livingstone a lead of 1% whereas in the event Ken won by 11%.”
197

Publius,

London 07/05/2008 11:16:43
#163 Peter

"Publius - the vote on a referendum will be Holyroods but the timing and nature lies in the hands of the SNP. The Tories will abstain as to do anything else is electoral suicide, the Libdems will come up with a fix to let them vote for, as will the Greens, which leaves Labour in Scotland in a constitutional mess of their own making as their vote will be meaningless. Vote against and they will be buried, vote for and they will be buried."

What if Labour propose an early referendum and the SNP vote against because it doesn't suit them?
198

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 07/05/2008 11:17:50
Did you see Wendy on Newsnicht? She wanted to pressurise the SNP into having an early referendum and call their bluff (calling them dishonest) and then refused to say when she would prefer one. Honestly, my ribs are still killing me.

It's obvious eh. If Brown is going to get sacked by Labour he's taking the UK down with him. He has his party over a barrell. If Labour wins the referendum his PM career is back on track as the biggest saviour of Britain since Churchill. Well, that's the idea anyway. Not sure my ribs can cope with watching that idea unravelling.

Well, I have to think of a way of getting back to Scotland for this. Wouldn't miss all this for the world!
199

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/05/2008 11:18:28
#187 Huntly Loon

Also, bear in mind that the latest date for the next UK General election is 3 June 2010, however, most are held around a year before the last date. So it could well be May 2009.
200

BIG EYE,

Paisley 07/05/2008 11:20:39
Can the question for the referendum be

1. Would you prefer to live in an independent Scotland with Alex Salmond as First Minister or stay in the Union with Wendy Alexander as First Minister and either Gordon Brown or David Cameron as Prime Minister in London?

Please vote one for Alex Salmond or Two for the Doomsday option?

There, I hope that helped!
201

Scotland to prosper...,

07/05/2008 11:22:16
#218

If you care to actually read my comments properly, you will see that I'm not "bashing" YouGov. They presented their results correctly and supplied the data detailing their raw material sources.

What I do take issue with is the fact that 475 out of 175 people polled identified themselves as Labour supporters. To then sqwak on about how 19% in favour of independence is poor! 40% of the people polled are Labourites, what did you expect?!
202

 Ayrshire Scot™,

07/05/2008 11:23:50
225. Alex

Wendy's performance on Channel 4 news and Newsnight were spectacularly poor. She wants a referendum! When does she want it? She's not sure. She wants a referendum! Will she introduce a bill? Well, maybes aye and maybes no.....
203

The Strategist,

07/05/2008 11:24:42
#222

Silly boy.. Are you seriously suggesting that Council tax should not be included as a tax? You must have an MBA!
204

Nikostratos,

07/05/2008 11:25:55
#221 Ayrshire Scot™,

Given the snp are always comparing Scotland with Ireland and would like to follow their example 30.000 construction jobs have been lost due to economic slowdown.

A proportionate amount would be in the uk 500.000 jobs i say lets have this referendum with stats like that the snp moonshine would soon be exposed.


There's not many going to bet the family silver on a nationalist pipe dream
205

 Ayrshire Scot™,

07/05/2008 11:30:29
231. Yes Niko, because Scotland's 30 years GDP growth average in the Union is 1.8%, Ireland's is 7.2%. Why is this? Irelands GDP per head is massively ahead of the UK's.

Can you please explain the success in the Union for Scotland of growth at one quarter of Ireland's, and half of the average of other small European countries'?
206

 Ayrshire Scot™,

07/05/2008 11:33:39
232. Daniel - what great "fishing revolution"? Fishing, as an EU issue, is reserved to Westminster (which has failed spectacularly to protect Scottish fishing) - to impact EU issues like this Scotland would need to be a member state.

Now, can you tell me why Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Czech and Slovak republics all managed independence successfully, even emerging from dictatorial command economies, but Scotland could not?
207

acanthus,

07/05/2008 11:39:19
232:

"Predictable 'dramatic' actions such as these put at risk jobs. It has happened before in the past and its happening now"

I believe this old rabbit was touted around when the Parliament was proposed.

Could you point to one company that has left Scotland as was forcast by the Tories?
208

Publius,

London 07/05/2008 11:42:24
#228
You write "What I do take issue with is the fact that 475 out of 175 people polled identified themselves as Labour supporters. To then sqwak on about how 19% in favour of independence is poor! 40% of the people polled are Labourites, what did you expect?!"

Your first sentence makes no sense at all.

How one votes is not necessarily the same as one's party identification. You may identify with one party but vote for another party to give a kicking to your own party. The SNP polled 1/3 of the votes last year, but that does not mean that 1/3 of Scottish voters identified with the SNP.

I have never written that 19 per cent (or any other percentage) support independence. Unless a date for an independence referendum has been fixed, any figure will be pretty meaningless. Even the correlation between party identification and support for independence may be very weak. A substantial minority of SNP identifiers may not support independence. Minorities of identifiers with other parties may support independence.
209

acanthus,

07/05/2008 11:46:03
What all of the Unionists seem to be missing is the direct investment that would come to Scotland. You will notice on your 'Pantene Pro-V' or whatever else you buy that each company now has an Irish number to call?
Just why is that i wonder..mmm..let me see? Yip, instead of having a UK HQ they will all suddenly have to put admin jobs into Scotland (at the least) with possibly manufacturing and all the benefits that come with it, jobs, money, tax, infrastructure development,advertising, training on and on and on and on...
210

Liz,

Edinburgh 07/05/2008 11:49:13
#239
So are you suggesting that companies like Pantene Pro-V would suddenly want to open an office in Scotland? Why?

A company will only open a new office if they feel it neccesary and I would imagine that most would not bother - no manufacturing jobs will come here either - you are living in some kind of la la land.
211

Scotland to prosper...,

07/05/2008 11:49:37
#237

Perhaps I have to break this down a little further for you. They did not "identify with" a party, they actually stated they were Labour party supporters and had voted for them.

And if you can't see that having over over 40% of the people polled vote for a party with a unionist agenda is going to have an impact on the poll results then you shouldn't be allowed to comment on such issues.
212

livilion,

livingston 07/05/2008 11:50:00
Only read the last few comments but isn't it obvious?
Brown and Alexander's acceptance ratings are now both in freefall mode.

Any chance they might have of salvaging anything but pride depends on mobilising what's left(pun intended) of their traditional supporters before they too, like those Welsh voters in the valleys where its said they once weighed the ballots for Labour rather than counted it, also desert them.

A few scenarios to consider:
General election, Labour gets buried, Scotland gets the Tories from England, consequence; huge 'protest vote' for SNP. Independence referendum.

General election, hung parliament SNP hold balance of power, consequence; lots of Scottish jigging performed by Westminster MPs. Independence referendum.

General election, Labour win, Wendy Alexander wins Miss World, Gretna reach Uefa Champions League final, sorry, I know, just getting silly now..


Wendy, heads you lose, tails you lose. Call.



213

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 07/05/2008 11:54:37
come ON #242, that's toooo far-fetched!! Gretna for Europe again?! ;-)

Take a look at Ms Alexander's face. Would you trust that woman to lead in Scotland, to become FM? No, me neither.
214

livilion,

livingston 07/05/2008 11:57:53
Oh did I say that if a general election happens before the Holyrood Independence debate then we could just jump to the quick, pass go, collect our money and independence if the majority of seats in Scotland fall to the SNP?
Just a thought.
215

acanthus,

07/05/2008 12:00:05
240: Liz

So are you suggesting that companies like Pantene Pro-V would suddenly want to open an office in Scotland? Why?

Yip that is exactly what i am suggesting. I am not aware of any major company that deals with independent countries from outwith their borders are you? Certainly not where i live!
Seperate legal departments, marketing strategies, closeness to government, ability to target national trends and to maximise new and developing markets i think you will find are just a few reasons! They are smart you see, lucky you are not in business i guess lol.

Perhaps you could answer why Ireland has these representations and Scotland has precious few?
216

Queen D,

Glasgow 07/05/2008 12:00:46
Wendy has a "wet soap " response to all questions asked on Channel 4 news and Newsnight.
Can't get a grip on her!
Interesting articles in the Guardian today , worth a look !
The responses from bloggers is worth a look too!
Also , the lovely Allan Cochrane in the Telegraph and the unlovely Tim Lacklustre! He might be in the Times , I was'nt paying attention!
217

 Ayrshire Scot™,

07/05/2008 12:02:04
Oh dear. Gordon Brown just said at PMQs that Wendy has not asked for a referendum.
218

snecked,

Argyll 07/05/2008 12:04:47
What a lot of silly nonsense I read on this. London is no economic powerhoue. It is merely an economic counting house and has thrived and gorged itself for two hundred years on counting the money made by other peoples' industry. They are moving into the deep ess-aitch-one-tee at the moment as of recent years they have abandoned even that and have being revelling in selling debt and buying money from each other, cutting out the middleman (the manufacturing) completely. Just as matter of interest tiny wee Scotland is third after London and Bonn in Europes financial services industry. And it should be noted that at the beginning of last century Central Scotland was the richest society on the face of the earth. Mrs Thatcher of course finished off what was left of that by closing Scotland down.
219

acanthus,

07/05/2008 12:06:05
240: Liz

A wee link for you:

http://www.idaireland.com/home/index.aspx?id=4

It relates to the establishment of foreign companies in Ireland ..of which there are over 1000 employing 135,000 directly.

Guess what, they are involved in manufacturing as well..what a shock!
220

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 07/05/2008 12:08:15
234 Ayrshire Scot
The secret of Ieland's success is well known :
Low corporate taxation and low govt. spending. There is no NHS as we know it in Ireland. Only 30% of the population are entitled to free medical care. The rest have to pay for visits to the GP and stays in hospital. Would any political party in Scotland advocate a similar health policy here?

You cannot quote the success of Ireland without looking at All of its policies - not just the ones that suit your argument.
221

Publius,

London 07/05/2008 12:08:37
#240

A company may have an Irish telephone number for Irish customers, but when you call it you may get a call centre in the UK, in India or anywhere. BT broadband gives you a UK number, but call it and you will find yourself talking to someone in India. Ditto Dell.

Campanile hotels - a French company - has a UK number but call the number and you will find yourself talking to an English-language operator at Campanile HQ near Paris.

Get it?
222

Land of milk and honey - my arse,

Somewhere over the rainbow 07/05/2008 12:11:42
#245 If in doubt let's quote Ireland, Norway or whatever small state happens to suit your agenda.

The thing is - none of these have the same economic policies as Scotland.

Something the Nats consistently (and deliberately) fail to tell us.
223

acanthus,

07/05/2008 12:12:20
Well it states that foreign companies employ 135,000, that would be 135,000 Irish people i presume and not a phone number to an Indian call centre!
Have a look at the site and see the major international companies that are manufacturing there! None are in Scotland that i can tell!
224

European Scot,

07/05/2008 12:12:42
231 Nikostratos

"Given the snp are always comparing Scotland with Ireland and would like to follow their example 30.000 construction jobs have been lost due to economic slowdown.

A proportionate amount would be in the uk 500.000 jobs i say lets have this referendum with stats like that the snp moonshine would soon be exposed.

There's not many going to bet the family silver on a nationalist pipe dream."

You write of SNP comparisons between Ireland and Scotland.
You give the figures for Ireland, but then go on to quote the equivalent effect on the whole of the UK, but not on Scotland alone.
If we're talking moonshine, your little manipulation of the figures above is a fine example, and coming from a Unionist as well, who'd have thought it.
Incidentally the pipes in the Nationalist dream, have a lot of oil flowing through them.
Enough to lubricate any medium sized economy.
Black gold is well worth putting a bit of the family silver on.
Ask McCrone, he thought it was so valuable, Westminster kept it well hidden for 30 years.
225

 Ayrshire Scot™,

07/05/2008 12:14:46
250. George

I asked why Scotland's growth is half that the average of small European countries - inlcuidng those with social democratic policies and universal free health care. Small European countries with much higher government spending as % of GDP than Scotland or the UK have also grown much faster than Scotland. Why is this?

As for Ireland, low corporation tax has been a key driver for attracting inward investment and Ireland has massively outperformed Scotland - why?
226

brownlie,

07/05/2008 12:16:52
222 Publius

So those who pay the 40% income tax in England do not pay council tax? That would appear to be a lot less fairer than LIT.




227

Land of milk and honey - my arse,

07/05/2008 12:16:57
#254 The point is though that the Nats use Ireland as an example when it suits them.

When it doesn't suit them they use the Norwegian example - despite the fact that one is a low tax , low public services economy and the other is a high tax, high public services economy.

The Nats won't state which model they want as they know that the negatives are not palatable. Follow the Irish model and you have poorer public service provision. Follow the Norwegian model and you are taxed to the hilt.
228

acanthus,

07/05/2008 12:18:33
252:
Yip you are right, the economic policies that Scotland has means that we have virtually no international companies manufacturing here while Ireland does so thank's for pointing that out.
Not really down to the Nats that one though is it?

229

Publius,

London 07/05/2008 12:19:10
#241

A standard set of polling questions are "Do you think of yourself as a supporter of political party?" [Yes/No} If yes "Which party is that?". "How strongly do you think of yourself as a Lab/Con/LibDem/SNP/other supporter? ... very strongly, not very strongly?

From the answers the pollsters work out party identification. Voting intention is worked out from a different set of questions. It is usually the case that a party doing well will win the votes of nearly all its identifers and some votes from other identifiers.

Between every election there is a huge amount of churning. Swing measures only the net change between one party and another. The gross change of people moving between one parrty and another is very much higher. Hypothetical example: net swing of 5 per cent ; gross churn of 25 per cent.

Also answers to some questions are slightly unreal. "How would you vote if there were a general election tomorrow?" usually gives an unreal answer, simply because the respondent knows fine that there won't be a general election tomorrow. It's the same with the independence thingy. Until a date for a referendum is fixed a question such as "how would you vote in a referendum on independence?" may produce some meaningless answers.
230

brownlie,

07/05/2008 12:21:08
It appears to me from a unionist perspective that all the problems illustrated by previous pro-union posters makes more sense of the SNP's proposal to hold the referendum in 2010.

Those problems can be comprehensively addressed and discussed fully rather than be left open to question in a hastily arranged vote.
231

 Ayrshire Scot™,

07/05/2008 12:21:43
255. Danile - you refer to economic support (of which the US provides a very little to the countries listed) - Scotland being a rich country does not require economic aid - it would be a donor of aid.

I referred to the process to independence - which you think would be difficult - and ask again why Latvia, Estonia, Czech and Slovak republics managed the transition to independence, even from a dictatorial communist history with no democracy, but you seem to think a mature, rich democracry like Scotland cannot do the same?
232

 Ayrshire Scot™,

07/05/2008 12:24:22
258. Ireland, with lower spending as a % of GDP than Scotland has grown 4 times faster than Scotland.

Denmark with spending as a % of GDP than Scotland, has grown much faster than Scotland.

Norweay with higher taxs has grown faster than Scotland.

Ireland with lower taxes has grown faster than Scotland.

Seem your arguments that other countries are more successful or not comparable because of higher or lower spending or higher or lower taxes don't stack up.

233

overshot,

perth ( cairo, egypt ) 07/05/2008 12:25:46
Reading the above, highlights some very intelligent discussion and debate, also some rubbish. The scottish people are not fools. If scotland is going down the drain, lets go down by our own hand. This of course will not happen. It will succeed as an indepenent country because that is the will of the people. Times are a changin'.
234

livilion,

livingston 07/05/2008 12:26:16
#252 Land of milk and honey

We could quote any one of hundreds of nations our size or smaller.
The one thing they all have in common is the wit and wisdom to run their own affairs without their next door neighbour doing it for them.
Even the Isle of Man with its resources has managed fine, why in all the world are we the only ones who couldn't?
235

Alan B,

07/05/2008 12:26:59
Given scotlands poor economic performance within the union it would be rank stupidity for scotland not to become independent.

And it is not just that we have done badly. It is the fact that the other small european nations have done so much better over a long period of time.

Royster atleast admin u would rather have a poorer scotland within the union than a richer scotland outside.

"interest rates in the UK are set according to the needs of the UK economy not the needs of the euri-zone economy like in Ireland"

What u fail to mention is the sterling interest rates are not set for the benefit of scotland and further more interest rates for sterling have been too high for the scottish economy damaging our economy. (the low euro interest rates would be much more suitable).

Remember what the governor of the bank of england said when setting interest rates. Unemployment in the north was a price worth paying to control inflation in the south.
236

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 07/05/2008 12:28:46
256 Ayrshire Scot
Former Eastern European countries are, at present, enjoying good rates of growth as thay are taking advantage of very low labour costs. Wages are much lower in Slovakia and the Czech Republic so much of the car manufacturing of German companies has moved there. But, once again this is an advantage which Scotland does not have.

The idea that small countries have an economic advantage relative to larger neighbours is a myth and is supported by very selective evidence. The economy of Portugal has performed well below that of Spain in recent years. The per capita GDP of Canada is much lower than that of USA and the economy of New Zealand has languished below that of Australia for decades.

As I stated earlier - you have to look at the whole picture - not just the parts that support your argument.
237

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 07/05/2008 12:30:51
Apparently Wendy Alexander can only introduce a private bill is she has the support of sufficient members from two parties. Unless she can muster a member from the Tories, Libdems or SNP she is stymied. I cannot see her getting that support as they are currently revelling in her discomfort.
Also she cannot introduce a bill if a similar one is pencilled in by the government within its parliamentary term.
The only option is for the Government at Westminster to introduce a bill there. For Labour to sanction a referendum for the Scots on independence, but thwart a referendum for the English on EU membership, will only further cause a split in Labour. Gordon Brown is already wounded this policy would prove fatally. He has lost his authority. I think Labour is about to either implode or tear itself apart with recrimination. Brown is now a dead man walking.

238

 Ayrshire Scot™,

07/05/2008 12:31:07
267. Daniel

Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia etc are members of the EU and have the same tariff and trade relationships with the USA as every other EU state.

The point is irrelevant in any case - Scotland is a rich country and does not require any aid or economic assistance.

I asked why you thought the process to Scottish independence would be difficult when all these ex communist, poorer countries managed it smoothly?
239

Alan B,

07/05/2008 12:32:41
#Ugly George

Have a look at the gdp per catita ppp for western european countries and tell me the small countries have not done better than the big ones.


Luxembourg, Norway, Cyprus, Ireland, Switzerland, Iceland, Netherlands,Austria, Denmark, Sweden, Finland , Belgium have all a higher gdp ppp per capita than the uk, gernmany, italy and france the big 4.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita
240

 Ayrshire Scot™,

07/05/2008 12:34:15
269. George

I asked why Scotlands 30 year growth in GDP is half that of the average of small European countries (excluding the former Eastern European countries), one quarter of Irelands and well behind the UK. I note you do not answer.

And don't say spending as % of GDP or tax - as I pointed out Ireland has lower spending than Scotland, Denmark has higher spending than Scotland, Ireland has lower taxes, Norway has higher taxes - all have grown faster. Why has Scotland underperformed in the Union?
241

Arfur,

07/05/2008 12:35:46
Royster - do you even think before you type the dog muck you seem to think is intelligence?

Scotland has nothing but oil and golfing?

Yes we have oil which brought in a large percentage of the countries income.

Golf - yep, got. - which brings alot of tourism to Scotland.

It is estimated that tourism accounts for 3% of Scotland's economic output. Scotland is a well-developed tourist destination with attractions ranging from unspoilt countryside, mountains, golf and abundant history. Tourism is responsible for sustaining 200,000 jobs mainly in the service sector, with tourist spending averaging at £4bn per year. Domestic tourists (those from the United Kingdom) make up the bulk of visitors to Scotland. In 2002, for example, UK visitors made 18.5 million visits to Scotland, staying 64.5 million nights and spending £3.7 billion. In contrast, overseas residents made 1.58 million visits to Scotland, staying 15 million nights and spending £806 million.

Scotland is one of the world's biggest fund management centres with over £300bn worth of assets directly serviced or managed in the country.

Edinburgh is the financial services centre of Scotland and the sixth largest centre in Europe, with many large financial firms based there, including the Royal Bank of Scotland (the second largest bank in Europe and fourth largest globally), HBOS (owners of the Bank of Scotland) and Standard Life Insurance. Glasgow is Scotland's leading seaport and is the fourth largest manufacturing centre in the UK, accounting for well over 60% of Scotland's manufactured exports.

Shipbuilding, although significantly diminished from its heights in the early 20th century, is still a large part of the Glasgow economy. The city has the UK's largest and most economically important commerce and retail district after London's West End. Glasgow is also one of Europe's top 20 financial centres and is home to many of the UK's leading companies.

Not to mention Barcleys thinking of movin
242

Publius,

London 07/05/2008 12:36:32
#259 Acanthus
You write that "the economic policies that Scotland has means that we have virtually no international companies manufacturing here while Ireland does so thank's for pointing that out."

That's nonsense. Scotland may even be over-dependent on foreign companies manufacturing in Scotland. Aome of the poorest places in central Scotland (Greenock, Cumbernauld etc) are those with the highest concentration of overseas manufacturing companies.

Comparisons between Scotland and other small European countries are pretty meaningless. Scotland has spent the past 50 years changing from a economy centred on heavy industry, shipbuilding, mining and the processing of food commodities (sugar etc) imported from across the Atlantic. Some of the change has been very successful - finance, oil, whisky, industries allowed to medicine - and has brought high-paid work. Incidentally most of these successful activities are in eastern Scotland and are oriented towards Europe rather than embedded in an Atlantic/colonial economy. Some has been less successful, including low-tech, low-paid manufacturing jobs in overseas companies. These companies come in, take the grants and then move on to other countries where wages are lower.

No other small European country has had to make the same change as Scotland. Perhaps the nearest I can think of the French speaking area of Belgium which industrialised in the early 19th century, but the parallel is far from exact.

I do feel politicians should think about these things before making superficial comparisons between Scotland and other countries.
243

Arfur,

07/05/2008 12:37:06
274 cont

Not to mention Barcleys thinking of moving their HQ to Scotland. Business rates in Scotland going down and reports of large financial companies talking of leaving England due to tax levels.

Yeh, we are in a shocking state of affairs.......TUBE!
244

Alan B,

07/05/2008 12:37:38
How many people think it would be a good idea for the uk to give about half its income tax revenue to the US. Because that is what scotland did to the rest of the uk for more than a decade.
245

kirk 1,

07/05/2008 12:39:37
Oops Broon denied Wenders said she wanted a referendum
a.s.a p.
Bring it on now seems to mean, well maybe, let's think about it, nothing has been decided.
246

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 07/05/2008 12:46:34
Brown refused to support Wendy's call for a referendum at PMQs. he spoke only in support of Calman, which is in contradiction to her call for an independence referendum. She really has become a loose cannon. I think she ia likely to go even before Brown. He really has to show his authority and hang her out to dry. If the Donations fiasco does not sink her this will. Labour is a movement not a a one-woman-band.The SNP would miss her as she is so good for their cause.
247

 Ayrshire Scot™,

07/05/2008 12:47:50
279. Daniel

the SNP set out in their manifesto last year a process to independence, involving a referendum in 2010, preceded by a 3 year discussion of the issues. This seems mature and reasonable.

Labour have announced a panic U-turn based on dreadful election results and tactical considerations, reversing their previous opposition to a referendum, with the Prime Minister now flatly contradicting the leader of the Scottish Labour party - I suggest it is the Labour party U turn and panic that you have an issue with, not the SNP manifesto proposals on which they were elected.
248

Alan B,

07/05/2008 12:50:05
#Publius

"Comparisons between Scotland and other small European countries are pretty meaningless."

Too much sun in girvan i think :)

U have to compare to see how well we are doing. We also need to stop making excuses for doing badly.

What evidence have u got that any uk government has or would address the north south divide? What has brown as chancellor done to improve the scottish economy.

When has any government said that they would ensure the north does not suffer higher interest rates due to keeping inflation in the south under control.

Why has there been no economic assessment of the pros and cons of the euro to the scottish economy?

Ireland were in a worse state than us in the 70s. Norway were of a similar wealth then.

249

Colkitto,

River Clyde 07/05/2008 12:52:03
Someone is basically lying here. Wendy said on Newsnight Scotland she spoke to Brown last night and said he backed her on the referendum.
At PMQ's he has just denied this !!!

What the F*** is going on ????
250

Alan B,

07/05/2008 12:55:22
Wendy was a joke on newsnight. She virtually admitted lying during the interview in march when she was slagging the idea of a referendum off - saying it was just showing leadership and taking her party with her as she has always supported the idea of a refendum.
251

acanthus,

07/05/2008 12:57:58
275:
Thanks for the history lesson, i am fully aware of Scotland industrial history and of it's political history thanks.

'Some of the change has been very successful - finance, oil, whisky, industries allowed to medicine - and has brought high-paid work'

Are you serious? We have maximised the use of oil money in Scotland have we, yet not managed to put 1p in an account while Norway has £200 billion for it's future!
Whisky? What Scottish companies are there exactly? As far as i am aware just about all are owned abroad and that is where the profits go?
Finance..we only have 1 bank in Scotland (thank God for that at least) left, all the other have been sold off, witness the demise of Clydesdale and BOS and where do their profits go? Not Scotland!
Medicine? Go and look at the 'massive' pharmaceutical businesses investing in Ireland and tell me how many of them are in Scotland?

Yes the union has been a success alright..nutter!
252

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 07/05/2008 12:58:04
272 Alan B
If you are going to quote facts, please get them right. You claim that Cyprus has a higher GDP than the "big four" - way off the mark. But once again this is selective evidence. You quote the small countries that suit your argument . What about Greece, Portugal, Cyprus and Malta?

Look at your own source of info :

2007 EU GDP per capita mean : $32900
Big 4 GDP per capita mean :
France $33,800
Germany $34,400
Italy $31,000
UK $35,300
Of the "big four" only Italy is below the EU mean.

So how do the small states have an advantage?

Incidentally Scotland has a GDP per caqpita slightly below the UK figure but this still puts it well above the mean.

253

McGinty,

07/05/2008 13:00:46
Wendy, Wendy what are you trying to do.
You're that wummin who doesnae hae a clue,
You're going to break up a marriage
by behaving like a cabbage
but you'll look sweet on a backbench seat
or a queue in the Glasgow brew
254

Calum Crubag,

07/05/2008 13:00:48
Just heard Brown's dismissal of Wendy on the radio the now. What a joke. Wendy is useless. Labour are in a mess, north and south.

Surely an independent Scotland couldn't fare worse than this!
255

Calum Crubag,

Dùn Eideann 07/05/2008 13:02:42
Labour is gonna implode. Bring it on!
256

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 07/05/2008 13:04:41
Just two points to ponder instead of the unionist scare stories, which it didn't take them long to start up again once a referendum on independence was mentioned.

1, If some one were to go to the likes of Norway or Ireland and say to the people would you like to lose your independence again, what do you think the answer would be, same for Croatia?

2, I see that Mr Cairns has said that the Westminster government wouldn't stand in the way of a Scottish run referendum, does anybody know if he also said that in the event of it being a yes for independence victory that they would abide by the decision even if it were only by one vote?

BTW, All those unionist scare stories wouldn't be quite as bad if anyone of them were actually to say that there have been many bad things have happened to Scotland within the Union, but they seem to want folk to forget that.

It's their way of saying (although they won't admit it), look, this is as good as Scotland is ever going to get it, so get used to it, it's called lowering the expectations of the people of Scotland!

There wrong of course.

257

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

07/05/2008 13:10:20
"281 Ayrshire Scot™,07/05/2008 12:47:50

Labour have announced a panic U-turn based on dreadful election results and tactical considerations"

As the groundwork was apparently laid out 9 months ago by Alexander then I'd suggest the move was wholly for tactical reasons nothing to do with electoral losses in England and Wales. I can understand why the move has been made but fail to understand why it took them 9 months to do it.

Alexander should have stood on a platform of changing the Labour Party's position regards the referendum commitment and pushed for it straight away after being elected. Instead she has dithered until the point that no-one actually believes she is really committed to the proposal.

The only way she will convince sceptics is if she makes solid proposals of her own regards bringing forward an early referendum. Otherwise her announcement is little more than hot air and has all the credibility of an X-factor candidate.
258

Busymale,

07/05/2008 13:11:32
My brother is a Unionist and his conclusion is that Scotland could'nt do it on our own. My reply? If after 300 years of underdevelopment this were to be true, is this not the strongest argument possible for breaking away? How much longer do they need to get it right?

English politicians and Scots whose careers depended upon England have deliberately tried to break our self confidence. Is this the type of person we want to lead us and make decisions on our behalf? Why they even concealed the true wealth in Scottish oil - liars, liars, liars. Be gone with them!

259

Alan B,

07/05/2008 13:11:37
#Ugly George

The source i was using was:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

based on IMF figures.

As for using countries that suits my argument that is most of the small north european countries.

And u have ignored the point these countries have a higher gpd per capita ppp.

(The fact that greece and portugual always the poorest of the old eu 12 countries makes not difference to my argument.)

The small countries have done better.
260

The Strategist,

07/05/2008 13:14:34
Another Union dividend.....

"Aberdeen Asset Management is considering abandoning the UK as its headquarters for tax purposes as speculation mounts that a wave of British fund managers could head for the exit in frustration at Treasury tax changes."

Union divident #?
261

kirk 1,

07/05/2008 13:14:34
291 "2, I see that Mr Cairns has said that the Westminster government wouldn't stand in the way of a Scottish run referendum, does anybody know if he also said that in the event of it being a yes for independence victory that they would abide by the decision even if it were only by one vote?"

And Brian Wilson stated that any referendum is a matter for the whole of the U.K. and not only Scotland.
Accoriding to him it's a reserved matter.

Like Wilson or not, i'm certain he knows more about the issue than calamity Cairns.
262

Seoras67,

Edinburgh 07/05/2008 13:16:07
Why are Labour so seemingly keen to have a referendum on Scottish independence but so reluctant to have one on the Lisbon Treaty?
263

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

07/05/2008 13:17:28
#289 The truth is Peter that without Lib Dem and/or Tory support (or abstentions) neither the SNP nor Labour have the votes to get the referendum they want.

The only way I can see that changing is after the next Scottish Election if the SNP have substantially more seats than at present. And that may not be the foregone conclusion that some may think.

This is going to run and run.
264

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 07/05/2008 13:18:55
256 Ayrshire Scot

You are stating that Scotlands GDP growth is has been behind small states with high taxes and behind small states with low taxes. But you are also stating that it is below that of a large state (UK). If you are looking for a reason then study the numerous reports which have expressed disappointment in the rate of business start ups in Scotland relative to the rest of the UK. But this is a cultural factor which is not a function of the size of the state.

This is the crucial factor - not the size of the state. Some small states are successful and some are not. Some large states are successful and some are not. It all depends on the culture and policies within the state - not the size. To claim that a small state has an automatic advantage is a trite, simplistic analysis.
265

Alan B,

07/05/2008 13:19:36
Rather than going in denial about the state of scotlands economy and its out performance by other small western european countries, unionists should really be asking why these small countries have done so much better, and can the union be reformed to allow scotland to match their economic performance within the union.
266

European Scot,

07/05/2008 13:20:57
258 Land of milk......

"The Nats won't state which model they want as they know that the negatives are not palatable. Follow the Irish model and you have poorer public service provision. Follow the Norwegian model and you are taxed to the hilt."

Not being an economist, I can only speculate that Scotland would run its own model, tailored to meet its own needs, and to encourage the growth of its economy.
Alex Salmond is probably the best qualified political leader around, to deal with questions of the economy of a future Independent Scotland.
Clearly there are going to have to be some difficult decisions made in terms of balancing taxation levels, versus the amount spent on public services etc.
An Independent Scottish Parliament dealing with its own economy, is going to be more directly answerable to the Scots, than with the current set up. That will help concentrate the minds of those in charge, whatever their political flavour, at the time.
Scotland would be no different to any other Independent country, it would just get on with running its business, its trade, its economy, as efficiently as possible.
A country of 5 million people, with Oil, Whisky, Fishing, Banking, Insurance, Tourism, Natural resources, etc, can't hack it as a successful Independent country ?
Only if we believe the propaganda we've been fed all these years.
267

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

07/05/2008 13:22:09
#300 Because they don't interfere to the level that our economically illiterate politciians do?
268

livilion,

livingston 07/05/2008 13:25:52
298 The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),
And just how chuffed are you now that Wendy is in favour of a referendum when the Libdems passed up on the chance of government solely because they were implacably opposed to referenda?
269

Alan B,

07/05/2008 13:26:43
#299 Ugly George

The fact is most small western european countries have out performed us and the larger ones.

"To claim that a small state has an automatic advantage is a trite, simplistic analysis."
The point is back 20yrs ago the prevailing economic view was big was better. That analysis has failed to be correct as the small comparable ones have done better.

"It all depends on the culture and policies within the state - not the size"

exactly. The policies by westminster have not been in scotland economic interest.

An easy example of that was the famous quote from Eddie George that i mention above, when he said unemployment in the north was a price worth paying in the south.


270

Alan B,

07/05/2008 13:27:22
#299 Ugly George

The fact is most small western european countries have out performed us and the larger ones.

"To claim that a small state has an automatic advantage is a trite, simplistic analysis."
The point is back 20yrs ago the prevailing economic view was big was better. That analysis has failed to be correct as the small comparable ones have done better.

"It all depends on the culture and policies within the state - not the size"

exactly. The policies by westminster have not been in scotland economic interest.

An easy example of that was the famous quote from Eddie George that i mention above, when he said unemployment in the north was a price worth paying to control inflation in the south.


271

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

07/05/2008 13:29:58
#301 I agree that a Scottish economy would be run with its own model to suit its own needs - that's why much of this debate about Ireland, Norway et al is irrelevent.

There needs to be a much clearer vision of the kind of economy we want - not just this cherry-picking of the best from incompatible models.

Many of the decisions you talk about require groundwork now - leaving it to independence day would be folly in the extreme. From the nationalist point of view it would also be benficial as it would go some way to allaying the fears of the undecideds.
272

livilion,

livingston 07/05/2008 13:33:22
302 The Federalist
You're a little behind TF.
The original Labour MSPs recruited by the sainted comrade Dewar were third rate as a deliberate policy to protect the Scottish leasdership from any kind of challenge and to reinforce the message that Scotland was too wee, too poor and too thick to run her own affairs.

This legacy is still being felt at Holyrood on the opposition benches to this day.
273

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

07/05/2008 13:33:51
#303 As a regular poster you know I have consistently favoured having a referendum - I welcome Ms Alexander's change of heart.

We now just have to keep her to her word!!!

As for the Lib Dems - this move has well and truly shafted them - they now have no blackmail clause reagrsd coaltion - unless of course they want to get in bed with the Tories. Nicol Stephen has got some thinking to do - and if he doesn't sort things soon he'll get the boot.
274

Doh,

07/05/2008 13:36:21
256

Because it was starting from a lower base.
275

livilion,

livingston 07/05/2008 13:36:29
306 The Federalist
"Many of the decisions you talk about require groundwork now - leaving it to independence day would be folly in the extreme. From the nationalist point of view it would also be benficial as it would go some way to allaying the fears of the undecideds."

Wasn't that what the SNP have been saying since the run up to last May's Holyrood elections?
276

Alan B,

07/05/2008 13:39:02
#The Federalist

"that's why much of this debate about Ireland, Norway et al is irrelevent."

It is not irrelevent for a couple of reasons.
1)it shows how well we are doing in comparison.

for yrs we were told that we did not perform aswell as england but could not expect to as it was a larger country that has turned out to be false.

2)it also shows that economic success can be done by different models.

I do not think anyone is really cherry picking but showing that we as a small country can be successful after all the stuff we have been fed for yrs saying we would be some sort of bannana republic.

Yes u are correct that we need to find our own path, based on our own strengths and weaknesses. But that will depende to some extent what party the public vote in. Every time a new party is voted in the uk our economic model alters somewhat.

"Many of the decisions you talk about require groundwork now "
problem is if the sp does not have the power. the snp want to have a corporation tax of 20%. they simply cannot introduce it.

within the uk as it is currently structure scotland cannot make a decision on whether to join the euro.

these are 2 fundamental decisions.

277

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 07/05/2008 13:42:44
304 Alan B
There are so many factors that you are not taking into account. You assume that because some small Europoean countries have done well in recent years that this is the norm. Look at what is happening in Europe now and what is going to happen in the future. The success of countries such as Ireland has not gone unnoticed by France and Germany. Initially they proposed harmonisation of corporate taxes throughout the EU but they have given up on that as this process would be vetoed by Ireland. Now they are responding. Angela Merkel has slashed the rate of corporation tax in Germany from over 30% to 15% in two years. Nicolas Sarkozy has embrked on a 5 year plan to reduce the rate from 33% to 20% with an eventual aim of 10%. It is Conservative policy to reduce the rate in the UK to 25% in the UK immmediately with further reductions to follow.
Once the large states reduce their corporate tax rates to competitive levels who has the advantage. Try looking at this on an objective and rational level.
Who has the competitive advantage in selling groceries the Tesco superrstore or the little grocer.
278

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

07/05/2008 13:43:16
#307 Unlike the SNP with the likes of Lloyd Quinan and Dorothy Grace-Elder rocking the boat!!
279

Publius,

London 07/05/2008 13:46:48
#289 Peter

To deal with your points in order.
(1) The SNP says it wants a referendum on independence - likely date 2010 - but Wendy wants one in 2009. If Wendy introduces a bill for a referendum in 2009, the SNP would look idiots not to support it. (Then, if Wendy is bluffing, she'll look like an idiot.)
(2) LIT, if introduced, will be a calamity for the party that introduces it. (i) The winners will pocket the money and stay quiet. The losers - students, young people living at home, people who who currently have council tax rebates - will howl like hell. LIT will do for the SNP what the ten per cent fiasco is doing for Labour. (ii) Foreigners make decisions on where to live on the headline rate of taxation. 42 per cent is higher than 40 per cent. Hence some will be deterred from moving to Scotland.
(3) I agree with your comments on Darling's taxes...but LIT is just another tax. Do you want a bunch of toon cooncillors raiding your pay packet?
280

Publius,

London 07/05/2008 13:49:48
#308 Federalist
"I have consistently favoured having a referendum - I welcome Ms Alexander's change of heart."

You're right. It's a pity some SNP supporters are so churlish that they won't welcome Wendy's change of heart. The sooner we decide this issue one way or the other - and then move on - the better.
281

subrosa,

07/05/2008 13:50:47
Aye someone's lying in NuLabour. Who'd have thought it?
282

Boggle fey the Bog,

07/05/2008 13:51:55
Gordo has just denied that Wee Windy, wants an early referendum, during PMQ's.
It also now appears that Wee Windy, doesn't even know the correct procedure to introduce a 'private members bill' in the Scottish Parliament, and has virtually disqualified her own bid to have a 'quick referendum' by introducing a Private Members Bill herself, as she claimed she would do at the weekend.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7387669.stm


Ye couldnae mak it up!!!

Onionists, numpties an ejits yin an aw.
283

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

07/05/2008 13:52:34
#312 The small/large country argument is irrelevent - what matters is the economic policies - and they can be equally good/crap in a large country as a small country. I have never argued that economically we could not go it alone - what I have said is that I'd like to see a clearer espousal of the economic path we would take post-independence. Waiting until the first election after independence to propose the direction of economic policy is like shutting the gate after the horse has bolted.

By groundwork I mean the detailed figures and planning required for a move to a fully-independent economy - that does not require any new powers.
284

livilion,

livingston 07/05/2008 13:52:48
314 The Federalist
The(ok one) nightmare scenario for Labour in Scotland would be for Wendy to step down. Yes I know, but consider, imagine any those sticking the knives in her back having a go at the job?
How many Christmasses and Birthdays can Alex Salmond expect in one administration?
285

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 07/05/2008 13:53:56
I agree that the Scottish Economy needs to be run with its own model,to suit its own needs. That was always one of the arguments for independence before devolution,that economic decisions made in Southern England,were not necessarily appropriate for the Scottish economy.References to small European countries such as Ireland,Norway,Finland etc are not for the purpose of using their models.It is more for the purpose of demonstrating that small independent countries can be succesful.Of course each one will find its own way,although there might be something to be learned from each country.

Having logged out a while ago,I notice that the debate has moved away from the topic.Pity because Wendy's U turn is fascinating.One wonders what the consequences are for the Calman commission and relations between Labour and their unionist allies in the Scottish Parliament? Politics is certainly starting to become interesting,and much less predictable.
286

Alan B,

07/05/2008 13:55:17
#Ugly George

"Try looking at this on an objective and rational level."
I am that is why i am quoting what has happened in the last 20yrs.

"Once the large states reduce their corporate tax rates to competitive levels who has the advantage."

The problem i have with this argument is was used in the 80s when i studied abit of economics, and it turned out to be false.

The low tax argument would be more relevant if it was only ireland we were talking about. Other small countries with medium and higher taxes have performed well.

The fundamental thing is we are all part of the eu and it single market so it allows all countries access to this market.

The main argument is a small country is more flexible and can focus on it strengths and deal with its weaknesses. In the uk the problem is our plight is generally ignored. devolving economic powers would have helped.

1)we know sterling has been bad for scotland as interest rates have been too high.
2)while no currency option is perfect the euro would by far seem like the best fit as it has it has lower interest rates than the uk.
3)with independence if a government fails we can kick them out, with the uk if england votes one way and scotland the other we get what england votes for.

when the south went into recession in the early 90s the tories were kicked out. but when scotland voted to remove the party of recessions in the north in the 80s we could not do anything about it.

good governance matters.

Policies like mirus for instance were dreadful for scotland articially keeping interest rates too high.



287

ochone,

07/05/2008 13:57:57
292 Federalist, Just because Wendy Alexander claims she first mentioned it 9 months ago doesn't make it so.

The Daily record reported this yesterday and went so far as to say that a document had been reveled to them, but instead of printing a picture of the actual document they could only print a picture of what the document could have looked like, they couldn't even say whether it was a letter, a fax or an e mail.

Now I havn't seen todays record yet, so if there is picture of it in now, then even that would raise more points and questions, like why is nobody commenting on the fact that within the document even Wendy Alexander is supposed to have said,'It's not that Scotland can't go it alone',
288

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

07/05/2008 14:01:54
#319 Assuming that the SNP, Lib Dems and Tories don't back her then that leaves only the Greens to make the second party.

Does anyone have any idea what the Greens stance might be regards an earlier referendum?

There is also the possibility that she knows exactly what she is doing. That she knows that it will fall at the first hurdle and she can then claim that the other parties are not backing a (early) referendum.
289

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

07/05/2008 14:06:03
#322 I think you are correct that Labour could be in for one bloody battle - not only in Scotland but at a UK level.

The thing is though - who is going to lead the opposition to Brown/Alexander?

As far as I can see we are not going to get a breakaway like we had in the 1980s (though I would welcome one) because most of them can't stand each other's guts.
290

Calum10,

07/05/2008 14:13:04
Gordon Brown has just squashed Wee Wendy's rebellion at Westminster. She was free for only three days. Ah well, she'll have the photographs and videos to look back on.

Meanwhile - BREAKING NEWS

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/wendy-alexander-goes-to-toilet-by-herself-20080507931/
291

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

07/05/2008 14:17:49
#328 Sorry to be a pedant but she would not be breaking the law - the proposal would just fall:

"Where the member does not obtain such a right to introduce, the proposal falls and a proposal in the same or similar terms may not be lodged by any member during the same session within 6 months of that proposal falling."

292

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 07/05/2008 14:17:54
#194 Yes.
293

brownlie,

07/05/2008 14:22:29
321 The Fed

You may be interested that the Financial Times FDI (Foreign Direct Investment) Magazine has voted Scotland, currently their UK Region of the Future, as the European Region of the Future in competition with 39 other European regions.

Scotland scored highest in economic performance, overall FDI promotion strategy, quality of life, transport links, IT and Telecommunications and human resources.

The full article is on the Scottish Development site.
294

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 07/05/2008 14:24:08
324 Alan B
I am sorry to mention it again but you are, once more being highly selective. You state that sterling is not suitable for Scotland but tthat the Euro would be as if offers lower interest rates. But once again that is the case at the moment and you are assuming that
1 This will always be the case
2 Scotland will always need low interest rates. Is it not possible that at some stage in the future Scotland will have to control inflation - inflation has been a problem recently in Ireland.

Also if Scotland cannot assimilate its economy into the interest rates of Sterling where it forms 9% of the population, how can you guarantee that it could assimilate its economy into the Euro when it forms less than 2% of the population.

As far as the large scale/small scale issue is concerned, look at one very straightforward case - bradcasting. The SNP would like to set up all the mechanisms of nationhood incuding a separate Scottish Broadcasting Corporation. How can it set up an SBC which could match the output and revenue of the existing BBC when it has only 9% of the revenue base. To do this would reuire a licence fee of over £1500 per annum.
295

acanthus,

07/05/2008 14:26:12
328: Dave,

Did anyone spot at 1:36 seconds that Brown calls her 'that s**t' and immediatly changes it to 'what she'...i might be having turn but can someone please confim what he called her!

Hilarious:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7387669.stm

296

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

07/05/2008 14:29:01
Just double-checked the procedures of the Scottish Parliament. For the purposes of introducing Bills - section 12 (a):

"(ii) the members supporting the final proposal include members of at least half of the political parties (or groups formed under Rule 5.2.2) represented in the Parliamentary Bureau"

Rule 5.2.2:

"Members who represent a political party with fewer than 5 representatives in the Parliament and members who do not represent a political party may join together to form a group for the purposes of nominating a group representative under paragraph 1(c). The number of members in any such group shall be at least 5."

So my original question about the Greens is irrelevent!!

Therefore we are back to the original point I made. That she knows exactly what she is doing. That she knows that it will fall at the first hurdle and she can then claim that the other parties are not backing a (early) referendum.
297

acanthus,

07/05/2008 14:30:09
Maybe he said 'that s**t what she was pointing out'..hahaha so funny
298

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

07/05/2008 14:38:01
#334 I take it then you would support a seperate Scottish currency if there were independence?
299

acanthus,

07/05/2008 14:39:10
Gordon says no and Wendy says yes..so im now wondering just what the hell is happening? And into the bargain he calls her 'a s**t' on television..dear oh dear!
300

 Ayrshire Scot™,

07/05/2008 14:42:17
292. Feddy

no, this is not the result of 9 months work by Labour. Wendy Alexander said in Feb 2008 - "a referendum is not an issue for any serious thinking politician" and in the same month " a referendum is a distraction from the serious issues of health and education".

So either Wendy has never been a serious thinking politician, or health and education are no longer important in her mind, or a panic stricken rapid U turn has taken place. Even today Gordon Brown flatly denied that Wendy was in favour of a referendum. Melt-down.
301

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 07/05/2008 14:44:19
338 the Federalist
To be honest, I have not considered the prospect. Is anybody advocating such a policy?
302

 Ayrshire Scot™,

07/05/2008 14:46:59
299. george - I never claimed small states have an automatic advanatage. I asked you, and note yet again no answer, why Scotland's 30 year GDP growth is behind Ireland by a factor 4, half that of small European countries and behind the UK.

Various explanations to say that Scotland cannot be compared to ohter countries have used - lower spending as % of GDP, higher taxs, lower taxes and higher spending as % of GDP for reasons. As Scotland lags countries which have higher/lower spending and higher/lower tax, these are not excuses.

Now, would you care to venture an answer to why our growth has been so poor?
303

acanthus,

07/05/2008 14:47:08
Well it raises the interesting question is just how is Broon or Weddy going to save what face they have left? Either Wendy backs down and says she was not calling for a referendum (impossible) or Broon says he has totally misunderstood what she said in the first place and on reflection he agrees with Wendy (impossible)?
What a lovely little dilemma ;-)
304

Alan B,

07/05/2008 14:49:34
#Ugly George

"You state that sterling is not suitable for Scotland but tthat the Euro would be as if offers lower interest rates. But once again that is the case at the moment and you are assuming that
1 This will always be the case
2 Scotland will always need low interest rates. Is it not possible that at some stage in the future Scotland will have to control inflation - inflation has been a problem recently in Ireland."

Interest rates in countries like Germany and France have always been lower than the UK for last 30/40yrs. So it is more likely to continue. Much of this has to do with the housing market. So it not just what is happening this yr or even over the last few yrs but over a long period of time.

Of course it could change, but when u are managing things u take the most likely outcome, basing what is likely to happen in the future and looking at what has happened in the past. (Not hoping for the long shot.)

Ask yourself what interest rates sould have been based on scotland economic needs not the uks as a whole which are heavily influenced by the dynamic economic engine that is the south of england.

Higher interest rates also tend to lead to a higher value for the pound that would otherwise be the case. (although there are other factors).

If we had a scottish currency the currency would devalue to reach a rate which is correct for the scottish economy. Because of our low growth we would be able to have lower interest rates. (yes it would help if we had scottish inflation figures reported, then we could make a better judgement).

There are 3 options - none are perfect.
1)scottish currency- would have the best interest rates for scottish economy but would have the disadvantage that companies would have to cope with exchange rate fluctuations.
2)sterling - disadvantage that interest rates are too high over a period of time. Advantage is that we do not have exchange rate fluxations with england.
3)euro - probably the best of both wo
305

Houssine,

Nanterre 07/05/2008 14:51:31
Hello,I have a big problem since weeks whit Gaelic section of Scotsman.com in the new web version of Scotsman.com the word "Gaelic" was not appeared in first page than i clic in any titl the section for Gaelic appeared in the left and than when i clic on the titl :"Gaelic" they are not articles?? Why?? I don't know if this is a jok from the staff of scotsman.com or not.Since this morning i'm looking if the articles was avaiable or not.

needjar@yahoo.fr
306

Alan B,

07/05/2008 14:53:35
cont


3)euro - probably the best of both worlds. interest rates over a long period of time are a better match that sterling. it also protects industry against currency fluxations with a hugh market.

Best senario for scotland would be for the whole of the uk to join (could foresee inflationary difficulties for the south).

"Scotland will always need low interest rates. Is it not possible that at some stage in the future Scotland will have to control inflation"

For a start it would mean that we would be growing much quicker. u generally do not get inflation in a slow growing economy. (said generally not looking for an isolated example). Personally i do not think that would be a problem.

Ireland really made some mistakes i believe. it joined the euro when i was growing at far to fast a rate. It should have delayed it until its amazing growth had cooled. It also joined at too low a level.

The other thing is inflation like in the housing market can be controlled by other means. (ireland has not done this). Brown could easily have controlled house price inflation by limit credit. Many other aspects of inflatin can be dealt with through international competition.

So although like everything there are dangers it is much more likely to be the best route ahead.

Also we cannot control scottish inflation with sterling. Interest rates are set for the uk as a whole. We are too small to really matter much. As such we would be better looking for a better match for monetary policy rather than expecting interest rates to be set for the scottish economy specifically.

307

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 07/05/2008 14:59:03
Gordon Brown stated today at Prime Ministers Question time that Wendy alexander did not say t6hat she wanted an early referendum and that he was waiting for the Calman report before ant Labour initiated referendum.This statement contradicts what Wendy is reported to have said.Gordons statement can be viewed on video at the BBC Scotland website.This seems to be a very chaotic situation.What is going on?
308

Alan B,

07/05/2008 15:00:21
#Suomi

Wendy said last night on newsnight she wanted the referendum before Calman reports.
309

 Ayrshire Scot™,

07/05/2008 15:00:34
348. Labour meltdown of confusion and panic U turns.
310

acanthus,

07/05/2008 15:04:38
Who is u-turning now on who and what? I am losing the plot!
311

acanthus,

07/05/2008 15:05:39
Wendy does a you turn on the vote, then Gordon does a u-turn on Wendy..have i got this right or am i missing one somewhere?
312

 Ayrshire Scot™,

07/05/2008 15:09:01
352. Correct. Wendy who said"a referendum is not a question for any serious thinking politician" declares she is not one by wanting a referendum. Brown says that Wendy did not say that, and backs the commission. Wendy when asked when she wants her immediate referendum doesn't answer. Wendy when asked if she will introduce a bill for the immediate referendum she wants (but won't say when she wants it) refuses to answer.

A Labour cabinet minister, asked if the issue was discussed at cabinet cannot say, and then says ,when given proof it was, that he was out of the room at the time

Mighty tactics indeed.
313

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 07/05/2008 15:09:59
342 Ayrshire Scot
How can you possibly say "yet again no answer" and ask me "to venture an answer" ?

I have given a reason. You have obviously not read post 299 in full. Please go back and look at it again.
314

Alan B,

07/05/2008 15:17:46
#354 Ugly George

U state in 299
"It all depends on the culture and policies within the state "

That is one of the points. The economic policies for scotland within the uk have been poor. Scottish economic governance by westminster has been poor.

Part of that has to do with uk government running econommic policy for the benefit of the south of england.
315

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

07/05/2008 15:21:09
#341 It is apparently the policy of the Scottish Socialist Party - one of teh few occasions I have found myself in agreement with the Trots!!
316

 Ayrshire Scot™,

07/05/2008 15:24:01
Check the news page - now an article on Brown saying that Wendy Alexander never called for a referendum.

It compares well with the story "Wendy demands referendum in 12 months"

317

 Ayrshire Scot™,

07/05/2008 15:29:00
354. And would economic policies over the past 30 years have negatively influenced business start up in Scotland do you think?
Inward investment (lack of of), growth of indigineous industries, damage to indigineous industries caused by UK government policy (fisheries, steel), high interest rates of course all negatively impacted Scottish GDP growth - and all are related to UK economic policy
318

brownlie,

07/05/2008 15:30:10
355 Rules

I think it's quite clear from the SNP manifesto when they want independence.

The second part of your second sentence would appear to be a direct quote taken from the Lib Dem manifesto.
319

 Ayrshire Scot™,

07/05/2008 15:31:02
360. Priceless - Wendy wants an immediate referendum! When does she want it? When Gordon says so, after the Calman commission reports.
320

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 07/05/2008 15:32:32
You have focussed on the "policies" part of my statement but you have not addressed the "culture" aspect. Why has there been a relatively low rate of business start - ups in Scotland? My view is that the public sector is too dominant and many able people in Scotland have sought careers in this field rather than engage in things such as starting a business. But this is a cultural phenomenon which needs to be addressed whether Scotland is part of the UK or not.

This is the disturbing aspect of the current debate in Scotland. Nobody (SNP and Tories included) has the political courage to tackle this issue. Jim Mather says that he would like the public sector to shrink organically. This is a cop-out meaning that he is not prepared to deal with the issue.

I think people need to address this problem rather than merely rounding up the usual suspects and blaming Westminster.
321

 Ayrshire Scot™,

07/05/2008 15:36:22
364. George - the UK had a high interest rate policy throughout the 90s. This was to address a credit/ inflationary boom in the South-East. This damaged Scottish industry and the Scottish economy, which had no inflationary problem.

Do you disagree?
322

Graham Simpson,

Vancouver 07/05/2008 15:56:29
So according to Wendy... we Scots who believe in the future of Scotland are to 'put up or shut up'. I nice colonial twist to that typically depreciating comment on her fellow Scots who have courage and optimism and do not suffer from the low self esteem fostered by 'NuLabour'

Now that Pontius Pilate Brown has washed his hands with regard to Scotland's fate it seems that the Scottish Labour Party (is there such an entity?) is mandated to settle the issue. This is where Wendy is going to get her biggest shock when she finds out that there is smoldering and growing resentment within her own party against her presumption that all members and labour voters are automatically opposed to Scottish independence. Keir Hardie's party was forged from Scottish steel and not from a bunch of Whitehall lackeys tugging their forelocks to their masters in the south. The roots of the Labour party in Scotland are deeply embedded in the philosophy of the sovereignty of the people and not of the distant elite.

Be careful what you wish for Wendy... it might actually happen!
323

Alan B,

07/05/2008 16:01:16
#Ugly George

I agree with u there is a cultural aspect. But the environment is set by the government. Part of the problem is if there are low startups in scotland but high in the rest of the uk the government does not then see it as an issue to address.

A successful economy will lead to more start ups. It is easier to start a business in a successful economy. Higher house ownership was also seen as a reason, Can borrow again house.

Taxation can be used to encourage desirable behaviour.


A couple of issues.

1)Why were the head quarter of oil companies like the nationalised BP in london. Why was the enegry dept not in scotland.
2)What happened when distillers was taken over. Remember the agreement to it being located in scotland a condition of the takeover. the government at the time was happy to use golden shares to keep british companies british.
3)when rob roy and brave heart were made why did they go to ireland for filming. tax breaks. scotland simply could not compete.
4)why does spain get a much better fishing deal
5)why did scottish cities have to compete with engish ones for the super casino. why could the sp not just give the go ahead if deemed a good idea.

If things are not in the wider uk interest then they are not done for scotland benefit.

Who is most likely to change the culture in scotland to that needed and address our problems. Westmisnter or the scottish parliament.

Our whole democratic process at westminster has been vote labour, or u will get the tories. nothing about actually doing something about scotland economy.

It is the small things that influence the culture. Cutting business rates. Labour not going on and on as they did in the 80s telling us how bad capitalism was and then adopting these same policies themselves. The scottish government allowing small business to compete for work. Remeber nicol stephens saying he would address that a few yrs ago.

Public sector pensions are one of the reasons so many peo
324

Alan B,

07/05/2008 16:05:15
cont..

i think there was a culture of: u are lucky to have a job. rather than one to encourage people to chuck it and take a chance.
325

westview,

on the horizon 07/05/2008 16:09:53
It is about time that the political parties in Scotland start to think about what they will be doing in an independent Scotland. The ones who at present rely on mother England to support them had better learn quickly to stand on their own feet ,if they wish to promote their own political philosophy in the coming free Scotland. For their own sake cut mummies Westminster apron strings and get on with Scottish politics, funded and manned by folk from north of the border.
326

getinnnn,

Scotland is My Land 07/05/2008 16:20:54
The arguments that Scotland cannot survive by itself or will be worse off are being rightfully rubbished: These People do not know what they are talking about:...When it comes down to it; their real thinking is a staunch loyalty to the U.K as one Country: This is a renounciation of the Scottish Nation: Let's call a spade a spade. You are either loyal to Scotland or the UK. Remember Our History when We gave Our lives for Scotland's Freedom? What was it for? What do Scots think of the Scottish Nation?
327

A voice from SCOTLAND..,

07/05/2008 16:26:58
Of all the trolls deployed here by the unionist gang hut. Royster you surely are the dimmest most dreich boring wassock I have ever seen. Go and get a life for Gods sake.
328

­­Grahamski­,

07/05/2008 17:38:26
Game over new story on board.

New Balls please.
329

 Ayrshire Scot™,

07/05/2008 17:41:01
372. You change balls faster than Labour change referenda policy. Bring them on!
330

Dunnie,

Canada 07/05/2008 18:25:30

368 - Alan B - who are you calling a cont?
331

Yankee girl,

USA 07/05/2008 18:46:16
374 - Looks like someone is back to his old self!
332

Yankee girl,

USA 07/05/2008 18:46:16
374 - Looks like someone is back to his old self!
333

Yankee girl,

USA 07/05/2008 18:47:33
oops, sorry for the double post.
334

8noodles,

07/05/2008 18:49:31
51.

Why would we need to start a new currancy? Seeing as we would not be part of the Uk, we would then be free to vote on europe and the EURO. Which if you haven't noticed is getting stronger by the day, even giving the pound a run for it's money. Then you have european aid, on top of our oil.
335

Dunnie,

Canada 07/05/2008 19:05:22
377 - Yankee Girl!!

Always nice to hear from you - even twice.

336

Yankee girl,

USA 07/05/2008 19:18:23
379 How does it feel to be back, Dunnie lad? What pennance did you have to promise the Hootsman?
337

getinnnn,

Scotland 07/05/2008 19:26:32
2010 seems to be a sensible time for a referendum of this magnatude: Labour trying to rush this thing through seems very irresponsible. The more We talk the more We will see that this is Scotland and We are Scots.....and that Scotland should be run BY Scots. We voted for Our Independence in the seventies anyway. The argument of How well off We would be .....We would have SCOTLAND! We would have OUR COUNTRY back in OUR HANDS! This is what I call well off! How much value can one place on one's Own Nation?
338

Dunnie,

Canada 07/05/2008 19:31:46


None at all!

I was trying to log in under my former moniker but forgot my password. Was reissued with a new one and when I went to log in again up came my old handle.

Rather curious but the situation got very strange when I tried to log in hours later. The system refused both monikers. In fact, I was frozen out for 48 hrs.

However, all seems to be well - for the moment.

How are you?
339

Yankee girl,

USA 07/05/2008 19:33:36
382 - Glad you're on track, at least for now. Things are busy here, as usual. I just thought I'd sneak in and see what the Scots were up to!
340

Dunnie,

07/05/2008 19:40:17


383 - never a dull moment!

Catch you later on maybe.

Cheers, Dunnie.
341

A voice from SCOTLAND..,

07/05/2008 20:05:54
For our colonial readers:
Scotland has an unrivalled opportunity to succeed by gaining the powers and responsibilities that can only come with independence and equality in the modern world.

The reality of the 21st century is that the processes of independence and interdependence are one and the same. As our world becomes ever more interconnected in terms of trade, international relations, the environment and security, the case for nations having a voice at a global level becomes ever more compelling.



It is a progressive process that has been under way for more than half a century. In 1945, the new United Nations was established with just 51 member countries. There are now nearly 200, including more than 30 new members since 1990. It is by becoming independent that nations can maximise their influence in our interdependent world.

For Scotland, independence would give us a voice and votes in the European Union, where we have many vital interests at stake, and also enable us to act on our instincts for internationalism, emulating the success of other small countries, such as Ireland and the Scandinavian nations.
342

A voice from SCOTLAND..,

07/05/2008 20:06:33
In opposing independence, the unionist parties demonstrate a poverty of vision for Scotland, forever relegating Scotland to a parochial role as part of an unequal Union.

When the prime minister says there are global issues that are shared matters of interest, I agree wholeheartedly. But I also believe that Scotland, as an independent country, can and should participate in the global solutions to these challenges. Indeed, I believe that to engage in such a way is our international responsibility.

On many issues, such as tackling climate change, developing renewable technology, or ridding our planet of weapons of mass destruction, it is very clear that the Scottish contribution would be more progressive than the response of governments in London, past and present.

When Gordon Brown implies that issues such as avian flu or foot and mouth are capable of only a British solution, the subtext is that he wants to take powers back from Scotland to London as part of the constitutional commission, or review, or working party - a scheme over which Downing Street has clearly asserted total control.
343

A voice from SCOTLAND..,

07/05/2008 20:06:51
In reality, there is not a farmer in Scotland, nor anyone interested in the rural economy, who would want control of any future foot and mouth epidemic to be vested with Defra, the department blamed for the release of this destructive disease into the farming community and which then, under Treasury diktat, refused to accept the financial responsibility.

The lack of any credible example to justify reversing powers back to Westminster betrays the weakness of the case in opposing the process of more responsibilities coming to Scotland.

Surveys indicate that most people believe the SNP Scottish government is doing a good job. Many of our landmark policies took effect this month - including the restoration of free education, with abolition of the graduate endowment, the start of the phased scrapping of prescription charges, the council tax freeze, and the roll-out of the Small Business Bonus Scheme to promote enterprise and jobs.

Poll evidence also supports the case that as the SNP demonstrates how Scotland can be governed well in the devolved areas, so we will build the case for Scotland to be governed equally well in all areas.
344

A voice from SCOTLAND..,

07/05/2008 20:07:09
This week, a poll showed a 10-point surge in support for independence since last summer to 41%. Similarly, the negative attitude being shown to the Scottish government and Scotland by the UK Labour government is getting a strong reaction in Scotland.

Westminster's unreasonable behaviour now encompasses threatening to withhold council tax benefit, trying to block local income tax, refusing to apply Barnett consequentials properly to prison spending and Olympic regeneration funding in London, and demanding payment from Tayside and Fife constabularies for security at the G8 and St Andrews summits.

The more that Westminster tries to lay down the law north of the border in clearly devolved areas, the greater the support there will be for independence and equality for Scotland. Bullies always get their comeuppance, and the reaction to this behaviour from London will be no different.

Whoever is running London Labour's campaign of aggression against the Scottish government, one thing is clear - it isn't anyone based in Scotland, or with a scintilla of understanding of Scotland.

Ten years on from the height of new Labour's power under Tony Blair, this latest campaign is a sad effort at control freakery. Unfortunately for them, it is all freakery and no control.
345

A voice from SCOTLAND..,

07/05/2008 20:07:28
The new Labour project in Scotland is in its death throes. With a dithering leadership in London and an incoherent approach in Scotland, Labour is trying and failing to exert the iron grip it once had and took for granted - and it is totally uncomprehending of the loss of power and the new political reality it finds itself in.

New Labour is making a loud noise in Scotland only because it is an empty drum.

The positive and forward-looking agenda for Scotland is about people being in charge of their destiny, with the right to choose the nation's future. The SNP's referendum policy reflects and promotes the new politics.

The Scottish government's first choice is to have a simple for-or-against referendum on independence through a bill introduced in the Scots parliament, but we are perfectly willing to include the option of enhanced devolution on a ballot paper if the London-based parties can agree on a specific scheme.

Labour members will struggle to explain their opposition to allowing the people to choose their own future in a multi-option referendum - even one which includes their own preferred option.

In 1992, it was Gordon Brown himself who demanded that all organisations support a “persistent, determined and concerted” campaign to force the then Tory government to accept a multi-option referendum on Scotland's future. He was joined in that clarion call by the late Donald Dewar and John Smith.

In my view, the right of self-determination and enabling Scots to exercise their sovereign will in a referendum is not something that applies just in times of Tory governments at Westminster, but at all times. And that is a concept that has overwhelming support among people of all political parties and none.

Independence also means the maintenance of the social union between Scotland and England, and the other nations of these islands, based on a 21st-century relationship of equality.

The SNP's commitment to the Queen remaining as our shared head of s
346

A voice from SCOTLAND..,

07/05/2008 20:08:45
The SNP's commitment to the Queen remaining as our shared head of state - just as she is head of state of 15 other Commonwealth countries - symbolises that social union between our nations.

It is a progressive vision for a modern Scotland - a nation that governs itself wisely and fairly, and is also a good citizen of the world.



GOD BLESS ALEX SALMOND AND QUEEN ELIZABETH OF SCOTS, LONG TO REIGN OVER US. YOU CAN KEEP THE SNOTTER CHARLES.
347

Aeternum Vale,

Wellingborough 07/05/2008 23:20:39
Aeternum Vale
348

JimC,

Kilmarnock 07/05/2008 23:36:22
#385
I don't like putting a border through my family. It makes me feel very uncomfortable.

Well I have went through that same border thousands of times as a HGV driver and it never stops me visiting my family in Workington, why should you be uncomfortable about crossing a line on a map? Or did you listen to the rubbish from John Reid about passports at gretna green and we will erect an iron curtain a few miles down the road. I find it hard to believe that we still have people who can be manipulated to such a farcical degree.
349

Richard Lionheart,

08/05/2008 00:58:57
The real question is, “can the Labour Party change leader again without holding a General election?”
350

John PM,

Edinburgh 08/05/2008 10:19:52
"Brown leaves the future of Union in Wendy's hands" not a smart move for unionists but an absolute blinder for independence supporters.

I loved it when Alex Salmond told John Snow (on C4 news) that Wendy was so incompetent that she hadn't realised that her proposed referendum bill would not be possible under the standing orders of the Scottish parliament! Very amusing stuff and old Empty Coat said Wendy wanted a referendum in this term of the parliament before 2011.

Strangely enough that's exactly what she'll get when she votes for it in 2010 and she can't avoid it now!

Labour have shot theirselves in the head but the benefits will come to the Scottish people with a democratic vote on independence now imminent.

 

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