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Brown to Scotland: Think big and reject narrow nationalism

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Published Date: 29 March 2008
GORDON BROWN yesterday urged Scotland to dismiss the nationalist agenda to ensure it plays a major role in the 21st century.
The Prime Minister delivered a stinging criticism of the SNP, and warned that Scots would only be able to make a difference to global challenges if they remained part of Britain.

In his first speech to the Scottish Labour Party conference as
Prime Minister, Mr Brown urged Scots to think big and not become parochial or obsessed with "narrow" nationalism.

He contrasted his global aims of eradicating disease and providing free education for all with the SNP's desire to "put up barriers" between countries. Mr Brown surprised delegates by delivering his 45-minute speech without notes or an autocue. Instead, he paced around the Aviemore stage, describing his Scottish upbringing and his pride in his home town, Kirkcaldy, his constituency in Fife and his country.

But he then outlined his desire to take social justice around the world, pointing out the achievements of Labour over its last ten years in power and what he wanted to achieve in the future.

The Prime Minister wanted to portray the Scottish Labour Party as a big national party in an international context, particularly after its election defeat by the SNP.

The aim was for the Prime Minister's international status and his message to carry outside the conference hall, persuading disillusioned Labour voters that the party represents more, and can do more, than the SNP.

Mr Brown referred to the global challenges of climate change, disease and poverty and held up a vision of being the "first generation" to be able to tackle all of them.

But he stressed this could only be achieved if people, countries and continents worked together and did not retreat into nationalist self-interest.

Richard Baker, a Labour MSP, said of the Prime Minister's speech:

"This is exactly what we should have more of in Scotland. We have been focused on domestic policies and the debate over the constitution. What Gordon Brown did was give it an international context, showing how interdependent everything is."

This was the first time Mr Brown had taken such a "casual" approach to his delivery of a conference speech. At first, he gave the impression he was simply imitating David Cameron, the Conservative leader, who surprised the Tory conference in his first year as leader by speaking without notes or a lectern.

Whispered claims of "he's doing a Cameron" were heard around the hall as Mr Brown began his speech not from the lectern, but in front of those sitting on the stage as he spoke.

The Prime Minister's approach was less relaxed and appeared more rehearsed than Mr Cameron's, although one former aide later insisted that Mr Brown had only spent his flight from London preparing for the speech, rather than the "two weeks" he claimed Mr Cameron had spent writing his.

One side-effect of the new style of delivery was there were few gaps for applause, as Mr Brown continued to build his arguments almost without pause.

Labour delegates gave Mr Brown a routine, if not rapturous, two-minute standing ovation, which he received with his wife Sarah on the stage.

It was as if the audience had been encouraged and surprised by the style of the speech and intrigued by the content, but not energised or inspired.



When it was suggested this was an unusual style for the Prime Minister to adopt, Des Browne, the Scottish Secretary, agreed, but added: "Maybe it will become his style from now on."

As for the substance of the speech, Mr Brown has made more coruscating attacks on the SNP before, but this was the first time he has used a major speech to link the global challenges he wants to take on with the politics of nationalism.

He did not bait or berate Alex Salmond, but he did warn Labour's Scottish activists that they had to react to being in opposition by becoming the "frontline of defence", protecting the poor and the vulnerable from the policies of the SNP government.

He added: "We should stand up for the people of Scotland and for the young people of Scotland. We will be the front-line of defence for them against these SNP cuts, not just because they are wrong but because they are depriving our country of its best future."

The speech was measured and plainly delivered, with a wider, international scope than might have been expected.

It was when the Prime Minister moved on to global challenges that he became passionate about his mission to take social justice to all parts of the world, something he said could only be achieved with others.

He talked about the achievements of the G8 under British leadership, of the International Monetary Fund under British leadership and of the Bali climate-change talks, with Britain leading Europe to secure a deal on the environment.

"These were not Scottish-only policies, or English-only policies, or Welsh or Northern Irish-only policies," he said.

Mr Brown also explained his vision that "this generation should be the first" to eradicate diseases plaguing the Third World, establish free education for all and combat climate change.

These goals, he said, would only be achieved by countries, continents and governments working together.

He added: "This is an inter- dependent world. What sense would it make within these islands, as the SNP do, to separate Scotland from the rest of Britain and make it more difficult to travel and to trade? The Union enhances the influence of Scottish people and ideas."



The speech was also clearly not a Blair speech. In the passages on world poverty, for example, it contained some of the themes Mr Blair has used in the past but the argument, constantly harking back to Scottish nationalism, was very different.

The Prime Minister was also effusive in his praise of Wendy Alexander, who has endured a tough six months as Scottish Labour leader, and he claimed that she would go on to become Scotland's next First Minister.

Mr Brown also gave his full backing to the Scottish Constitutional Commission, the body set up by Ms Alexander to look into more powers for the Scottish Parliament.

Mr Brown was careful to stress his Fife background: "I am proud I attended the local school in Kirkcaldy, proud that I had the opportunity of the best healthcare when I was ill and I had the opportunity, because of a Labour government, not only to study at a great school but to go to university as well."

The Prime Minister said he wanted the same opportunities for all children, adding: "I believe in a Scotland where everyone has the chance to rise as far as their talents should take them."

THE PREMIER'S OLD SCHOOL COULD DO BETTER, SAY THE INSPECTORS

ITS motto may be "I will try my utmost" but Gordon Brown's former school needs to try harder, according to inspectors.

Attainment at Kirkcaldy High in Fife had already been judged too low, but a follow-up visit in November found that standards had dipped even further.

In 2006, an HMIE report revealed a school plagued with high staff turnover, unfilled vacancies, and a high teacher sickness rate.

This week's follow-up report says too little progress has made since then.

It said: "There had been no improvement, and in fact some decline, in levels of performance in external examinations.

"The school should continue to address the need for improvement in key areas, such as behaviour management and the quality and consistency of learning and teaching."

Former head Gwen Kinghorn retired last month before the inspector's findings were made public.

Lindsay Roy was brought in from Inverkeithing High to turn the school around.

In Inverkeithing High's most recent HMIE report last year, Mr Roy was praised as providing "strong leadership".

Ken Greer, Fife education director, admitted decisive action was required and that the council had acted swiftly.

He said: "Lindsay is one of Scotland's leading headteachers.

"Already there is evidence of improvements in staff morale, pupils' behaviour and the achievements of pupils at the first- and second-year stages."

Mr Roy said: "Collectively , we are determined to achieve the desired improvements by the time HMIE return to review progress."





Page 1 of 1

 
1

Jimmy the Pie,

29/03/2008 00:07:21
He added: "This is an inter- dependent world. What sense would it make within these islands, as the SNP do, to separate Scotland from the rest of Britain and make it more difficult to travel and to trade? The Union enhances the influence of Scottish people and ideas."

What drivel. The man is clearly deluded and suffering memory loss.

Some benefits of the Union.
1. Gold fire sale.
2. Pension theft.
3. Northern Rock.
4. Millennium Dome.
5. Nuclear power stations.
6. Cash for honours.
7. Shambolic immigration/asylum policies.
8. No European referendum as promised.
9. Illegal Iraqi war.
10. Trident replacement.
11. London Olympics.
12. Inadequately supplied troops
13. PFI/PPP debt for years.
14. Swearing allegiance to Britain by school kids. (Not mine!)
15. ID cards.
16. NHS computerisation shambles.
17. Child tax credit shambles.
18. Child Support Agency
19. Scottish Election shambles (Dougie Alexander).
20. Economy in meltdown.
21. 24 hour drinking. (Keep the peasants pie-eyed and they’ll vote for us, just like their dads did).
22. Dr David Kelly
23. Westminster expense cover up
24. "British Jobs for British workers."
25. Privatisation of air traffic control
26. Giving director of CBI a ministerial job...
27. Dungavel detention centre for children of asylum seekers
28. Failing to vote on, or offer alternative or amendments to, the Scottish budget
29. Voting to keep graduate endowment.
30. Collaboration with rendition/ torture.
31. 12,000 redundancies at the DWP.
32. Closing Remploy factories a cost of 1000s jobs for the disabled.
33. Millionaire's inheritance tax cut.
34. Tuition fees.
35. Means testing benefits for the old.
36. Annexed 6000 Square Miles of Scottish Territorial Waters
37. Continued Theft of Scottish Oil & Gas
38. Constitutional Review (oops Commission)
39. Fly British Flag from public buildings
40. Destruction of Scottish Fishing Industry

2

Jimmy the Pie,

29/03/2008 00:08:15
Some more benefits of the Union

41. 'Independent' Electoral Commission
42. Reduced funding for Scotland
43. Invest heavily in London infrastructure -e.g. High speed rail, Heathrow,
44. Taking credit for cutting interest rates then banks & b/societies raising mortgage rates.
45. Nepotism and cronyism on a grand scale.
46. Scottish Industry Forum
47. Massive closures of Scottish Post Offices
48. Lose BP Hydrogen Plant @ Peterhead
49. Catalogue of top rated Wendy you-tube videos.
50. Refuse to investigate death of Willie McRae.
51. Refuse to create an Independent Scottish Labour Party
52. Catch Phrases/Spin e.g.” Whiter than white, Purer than pure”, "McChattering Classes", "CyberNat" and "Ranting Bloggers"
53. 20% Scots in relative poverty and increasing- tinyurl.com/2klhdm
54. Massive election frauds in Birmingham and other places (judge described as being like "banana republic" corruption)
55. The £400 million over-run on the parliament building.
56. Tony Blair comparing the Scottish parliament to a parish council.
57. Dressing taxes up as Green taxes and not spending the proceeds on the environment
58. Hammering high profit oil companies with high corporation tax but not his friends in the higher profit financial sector
59. Back door stealth taxation.
60. Banning protest and free speech near Westminster and Whitehall.
3

Jimmy the Pie,

29/03/2008 00:09:35
Some Heroes of the PEOPLE'S PARTY


1. Our Dear Leader, Comrade Broon.
2. Tony Blair
3. David Blunkett.
4. John Prescott.
5. Lord Watson.
6. Peter Hain
7. Tessa Jowell.
8. Harriet Harman.
9. Lord Goldsmith.
10. Lord Levy.
11. Lord Foolkes.
12. Wendy Alexander.
13. Andy Kerr.
14. Michael Martin
15. Keith Vaz.
16. Geoffrey Robinson.
17. Stephen Byers
18. Alan Milburn
19. Lord Irvine.
20. Jack Cunningham.
21. Claire Short.
22. Paul Drayson.
23. John Reid.
24. Bernie Ecclestone.
25. Sir Gulam Noon.
26. Philip Anschutz.
27. Rod Aldridge.
28. Sir David Garrard.
29. Nigel Morris.
30. Prof Sir Christopher Evans.
31. Ruth Turner.
32. David Abrahams.
33. Imran Khand
34. Alan Johnson
35. Rob Brown getting lifted for breaking and entering to steal Nona's knickers.
36. Ron Davis getting confused on Clapham Common.
37. Cherie Blair, Carol Caplin, the con-man and her Bristol flats.
38. Henry McLeish
4

Truely English,

29/03/2008 00:14:54
Good on you, Prime Minister Gordon Brown we are all British share and promote the same culture, language and way of life and should be very proud of what this country has achieved.
5

BIG EYE,

Paisley 29/03/2008 00:16:07
What a sad apology for a Prime Minister?

Well seeing he was never elected to the post....and never will!
6

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 00:16:40
1. The UK is 2nd in the world in exported services and 7th in the world in exporting manufactured goods; exporting more in total than the likes of France, Italy and even Japan. Per capita, the UK exports more than Germany too.
2. So it can be seen that the UK is one of the most successful economies in the world.
3. An achievement all the more remarkable when considering that we were the strike-ridden and uncompetitive ‘sick man of Europe’ just 25 years ago.
4. The UK is one of the permanent five veto-powers on the UN’s powerful Security Council,
5. One of the ‘Big Four’ in the EU,
6. a leading member of the G8 group of major economies with the 2nd highest GDP per capita in the Group
7. The UK sits at the top tables of the OECD, OSCE, NATO, the Commonwealth, the Council of Europe, the World Trade Organisation, the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund, making the UK one of the most powerful and influential countries in the world.
8. With such global political and economic influence but only 1% of the global population, the UK is very clearly ‘punching above its weight’.
9. As well as the EU's strongest major economy (over the last ten years, GDP growth in the UK has consistently outpaced growth in the European Union and London has been Europe’s top business region for 17 years running) as well as its second largest, the UK is the primary link between the EU and the USA and the Union’s second largest net contributor, plus we also have its strongest military so we are clearly extremely vital to EU interests and its voice and influence in the world.
10. The UK is also the UN’s sixth largest contributor;
11. home of one of the world's principal cultures,
12. home of the world's financial capital which is also Europe’s richest region;
13. home of Europe’s largest stock exchange and one of the largest in the world;
7

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 00:17:03
14. the OECD noted that the UK has the least barriers to entrepreneurship and the third least barriers to trade and investment in the world;
15. is the leading destination for inward investment into Europe;
16. is second only to the USA globally (substantially more is annually invested in the UK than even China);
17. In 2006, foreign investment in the UK totalled over $1trillion, the highest in the world after the USA;
18. the UK is the largest single destination globally for US investment and has attracted more US FDI than the combined totals of Germany, France, Spain, Italy and Ireland;
19. the UK is the most popular location for multinationals’ European Headquarters;
20. the UK is the second largest investor overseas with investments/acquisitions by UK companies almost quadrupling in the past ten years (in 2005, UK investment overseas totalled £750 billion);
21. the UK is one of the most productive places for innovation firms in the world,
22. ranking second only to the USA for the quality of its research base;
23. surveys have assessed that the UK has the top six universities in Europe and two of the top three globally;
24. the UK has won the third highest number of Nobel Prize winners in the world;
25. is sixth in the world for patents registered a year;
26. the World Bank ranks the UK first in Europe and sixth in the world to operate a business;
27. has the third largest number of companies in both the FT 500 and the Forbes 2000 lists of the world’s biggest companies after the US and Japan (and more than Germany and France combined);
28. the major UK companies account for the second highest market capitalisation in the world only bettered by the USA;
29. the UK's unemployment rate (using the internationally comparable “standardised” rate) is significantly lower than the European Union average;
30. the UK has one of the lowest government debt levels in the EU…
31. In Scotland, unemployment is at its lowest in 34 years.
32. In
8

BIG EYE,

Paisley 29/03/2008 00:22:37
Just noticed someone mentioned Labour's PPB this evening.

Was this complete surrender or not?

Having failed to come up with a single reason to vote for them in 2008 we were treated to a history lesson about why people voted them decades ago.

Will it help them?

Doubt it, the Party of constant, discredited, self interest, up to their eyes in dubious acts, whether intentional or otherwise is not even a pale shadow of what went before!
9

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 00:22:40
10. Ba-dum-TISH!
10

Elizabeth I (1558-1603 AD),

edinburgh 29/03/2008 00:24:07
Well said Gordon, these Scottish Nose Pickers have no place in our Britain.
11

Jimmy the Pie,

29/03/2008 00:32:21
Highland Mighty

If Britain is so powerful and influential why did we go to war on a lie? Why did most other countries not follow us?
12

Jimmy the Pie,

29/03/2008 00:40:16
Highland Mighty

If Britain is so powerful and influential why have most of our companies been allowed to be taken over by overseas companies?
13

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 00:40:24
Another update on this latest 'independence campaign'

After nearly 11 months of the SNP trying to provoke anger and resentment between Scots and the UK and/or England...

Only 0.5% of the population has bothered to read the SNP's much-publicised flagship White Paper on Independence.

Less than 0.0001% of the population has participated in the VERY heavily publicised 'National Conversation'. A recent lengthy plug on Radio 5 resulted in just 4 posts that day!

Less than 0.0001% have signed the Scottish Independence Convention's much-publicised worldwide petition for a referendum.

Of the petitions for referendums and independence on the No.10 website, less than 50 signatures have been gathered across all of them.

SO THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF ANY DEMAND FOR A REFERENDUM.

AND CERTAINLY NO SIGN OF THE "80% OF THE POPULATION DEMAND A REFERENDUM" REGULARLY CLAIMED BY THE NATIONALISTS!

On the latest poll, only 23% are in favour of independence but 76% are in favour of the UK in various forms. '23% for independence' is one of the lowest ratings in recent times.

70% of SNP voters at the last election believe the SNP won due to Labour's unpopularity rather than the SNP's percieved popularity.

The SNP's support and lead over Labour has declined in two consecutive polls and is now 4% lower than its peak in November.
14

john calvin,

scotland 29/03/2008 00:44:57
Although I am no supporter of Brown, but on this issue he is right. Its his true cause. #1, what about decades of peace and prosperity, a neighbour in England subsidising our lives and offering employment to any Scot wanting to make his way in life, who in turn pays his tax, which then funds the aforementioned subsidy. So you see, you narrow minded idiot that we really pay our own way at the end of the day, thank to an open Uk and an open mind, and leaving the bitterness of the past in the past. I am 100% Scots, and now live in the USA. If Salmond and his ilk ever get their way, I will never be living there again, as it will be a Socialist state dependent on others far more than we were ever dependent on the English. We deserve better more progressive leadership.
15

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 00:48:59
18. I refer you to:

The UK is the leading destination for inward investment into Europe and is second only to the USA globally (substantially more is annually invested in the UK than even China).

In 2006, foreign investment in the UK totalled over $1trillion, the highest in the world after the USA.

2006 was the only year since 1991 where foreign takeovers of UK companies outstripped UK takeovers of foreign companies.

The UK is the second largest investor overseas with investments/acquisitions by UK companies almost quadrupling in the past ten years (in 2005, UK investment overseas totalled £750 billion).

The UK has the third largest number of companies in both the FT 500 and the Forbes 2000 lists of the world’s biggest companies after the US and Japan (and more than Germany and France combined).

The major UK companies account for the second highest market capitalisation in the world only bettered by the USA.
16

Resolutions,

29/03/2008 00:52:05
So your're not impressed by Comrade Brrooon then folks?

Cannot say that much of an impression here.

Also Holyrood is a fixed term Parliament which GB does not seem to realise - next election 2011 so we know EXACTLY when!(After Westminster)

Wendy self=assessment 10/10! Anyone knows that's dodgy in education which they seem to think they are 'experts' on.

Talent? JR? What talent?
17

Jimmy the Pie,

29/03/2008 00:53:26
#24

Nearly all utility companies are foreign owned. How many foreign utility companies are owned by British companies?? Who owns nearly all the UK airports??
Who owns most of Scotland's salmon industry?? Where did the British motor industry go???
Mind you Northern Rock is British owned!!
18

Jimmy the Pie,

29/03/2008 00:56:18
#27 JR
Excellent comment
19

Jimmy the Pie,

29/03/2008 01:01:19
#29

Easy. Look at Norway - no trident subs, illegal wars and a successful oil industry. Ireland manages to scrape by.
Time for change - big change
20

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 01:03:48
21. So you admit that by leaving the UK, Scotland would lose its place in the decision-making processes of the UN, EU, WTO, OSCE, IMF, NATO, relegating itself to mere member along with hundreds of others?

You seriously cannot compare an independent Scotland's global influence with that currently enjoyed by the UK!!

The UN is run by the Security Council of which the UK is one of the veto-holding 'Permanent 5'.

The EU is run by the 'Big Four' of which the UK is one.

The UK is No.2 in NATO.

The UK is a 'board member' of both the IMF and World Bank.

The UK is rated by the World Bank as the fourth most influential country in the world due to its place at the top tables of many of the major international organisations. Not bad for a place with 1% of the world's population.

For Scotland to leave the UK in search of its 'own voice' is tantamount to leaving the main act on stage and taking a seat in the middle of the audience!

What is Ireland's stand on Darfur? What is Norway's stand on drug-eradication in Afghanistan and Columbia? (I bet you have to look these up!)
21

Senga Jean,

Scotland 29/03/2008 01:03:58
Scotland would be so much better Independent and a member of the World WIDE community. Where are the barriers in Europe that Brown lies about. Does he not realise we now travel the world.
22

Glaswegian,

Glasgow 29/03/2008 01:04:43
"This was the first time he has used a major speech to link the global challenges he wants to take on with the politics of nationalism."

Hands up who thinks an independent Scottish government would have sent the young men and women of our armed forces into an illegal war with Iraq.
23

Glaswegian,

Glasgow 29/03/2008 01:11:50
31 Highland Mighty: "What is Ireland's stand on Darfur? What is Norway's stand on drug-eradication in Afghanistan and Columbia? (I bet you have to look these up!)"

What is the UK New Labour government's stand on illegal invasions of foreign countries? (I bet you don't have to look it up).
24

ratzo,

29/03/2008 01:14:14
This is so boring.

unquestionably it is the case that narrow minded nationalism must be rejected.

That is precisely what Brown's British nationalism IS.

NEXT!
25

Glaswegian,

Glasgow 29/03/2008 01:19:27

Following the reasoning of some unionist posters on here, the constituent parts of the Soviet empire were misguided to seek their independence. After all, none of them is individually as "strong" as the USSR was.

Wonder what the populations of those countries would say if you suggested handing power back to Moscow?
26

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 01:19:47
37. Yawn. That would mean something if everyone outside the SNP was in favour of Iraq.

Salmond voted against intervening in Kosovo and Sierra Leone, which is spineless beyond belief as both operations stopped horrific wars.

Mind you, what do you expect from a fat former-bank clerk?
27

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 01:21:08
40. So you are now equating the UK to the Soviet Union???

Grow up!

LOL!
28

Colin P,

please, some sanity!! 29/03/2008 01:33:50
There's a new guy at work. He's from Bournemouth, apparently. He hates "the Jocks", the French, "the Eyeties", "the Krauts" the blacks, the Jews, the Yanks..etc.etc

I don't feel so bad wanting Scotland to be free of these @ssholes.
29

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 01:36:05
43. So no other country suffered cutbacks in its fishing fleet as a result of EU quotas? Just Scotland?
30

Glaswegian,

Glasgow 29/03/2008 01:44:27
42 Highland Mighty

Sorry you find the illegal destruction of Iraq so boring. I realise it was all supposed to be over by Christmas, but these things have a habit of running away with you.

The point I was making is that the relative strength of the UK is irrelevant (or worse) when the Westminster Government uses that strength in a morally repugnant way, as it frequently does. By contrast, many smaller, independent nations - though materially and militarily less powerful - have frequently used their influence for good, especially in global affairs.

I strongly believe that an independent Scottish government would care less about pushing its weight around on the international stage than it would about genuinely promoting those same "Scots values" which Gordon Brown talked about.

As for your comment about the Soviet Union, may I suggest that you a) Re-read the post and b) Actually answer the question.

The point about analogies isn't to suggest that the things being compared are identical, but that there are similarities which can illuminate analysis and discussion. I have no doubt that the "we're more powerful together" argument was used by supporters of the USSR, for exactly the same reasons you use the argument in relation to the UK.
31

Canada,

Canada 29/03/2008 01:50:17
Yawn,
Getting late here. I'm off to bed with a Broons' book. Makes more sense than Gordon.
32

Colin P,

29/03/2008 01:53:59
47 Well said!!

Why should Scotland worry about issues that don't concern it?
Our first obligation is to our own country and it's people. Then we can worry about foreign aid and diplomatic relations.
Then we can be an objective observer on the international stage. The world isn't depending on Scotland, it will wait for our decisions as it has with many other small and free nations in the past few years.
33

blueguru,

US 29/03/2008 01:54:33
Broon's arguments against the SNP could be quite easily extended to the UK as a whole. If nationalism does put up barriers, then let's abolish the UK too and become part of some great World government. More tripe than you could find in a butcher's shop! The SNP wants to remove barriers - the artificial barriers between Scotland and the rest of the World erected by Westminster. Scotland has much to offer - just look at Norway, for example - but her contribution is currently stifled by the Broon Shirts.
34

frank mcbride,

lusitania 29/03/2008 01:54:58
Highland Mighty.

I've said on other threads that your genius is without parallel, in this or any other universe. Once again you have proved me correct!!!

Big is beautiful?: USSR, USA?
Loss of influence?: a seat at the UN, EU, WTO etc. etc?

Your wisdom obviously originates from the GRAB Nebula: home of a certain G. Brown.
35

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 01:57:07
47. If you aren't interested in having any influence in regional/world affairs, please stop harping on about having "our own voice".

Again, your attempt to liken the UK and the USSR is nonsensical in every context.
36

Colin P,

29/03/2008 02:04:10
52 It's not all about having a say on the world stage. Have a look a countries with similar populations to Scotland. How influential are they?

Who really cares how much influence we have?? That's not what it's all about!
When will you plastic englanders realise this?
37

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 02:05:07
49. "it will wait for our decisions as it has with many other small and free nations in the past few years."

Are you seriously suggesting that the world will even care what an independent Scotland thinks?

The rules and strategies of regional/world economy, commerce, defence and security are made by a handful of the 'big' countries, of which the UK is one.

An independent Scotland of just 5m people will just have to go along with the decisions, having no influence in how they were made.

As I have already said, an independent Scotland will have its own voice...but it will be barely audible.
38

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 29/03/2008 02:06:58
There is a clear difference between Scottish civic nationalism which is about normal national powers for everyone who lives here and Britain's imperialist nationalism which is about deusions of grandeur and attempting to tell other countries what to do.

I know which one I prefer.

Britnats should imagine if they would look kindly on a plan for the UK to join the US. If they can think of problems with such an alliance they can understand the point of Scottish home rule.
39

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 02:08:54
53. The other small countries have no influence. See post 54.

And, again, if you don't really care about having a voice amongst this increasing internationalisation and globalisation, as you claim, then stop listing 'having our own voice' as an advantage of independence.

It isn't!!
40

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 02:12:08
55. Gah! How about the UK joining the EU?!

Why use the UK joining the USA as an analogy when we are already joining a FAR larger European Union?!

LOL!

And give this 'Britnat imperialism' bilge a rest as it is meaningless nonsense!
41

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 29/03/2008 02:13:27
The only narrow nationalism is Britain's delusional version. Scotland want to be equal with other countries, Brown's Britain thinks its better than other countries, but it really isn't.

It's clear that neither Labour or Lib Dems support the Claim of Right for Scotland any more.
42

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 02:19:00
57 And back it goes to those tired claims about McCrone; a report written before a drop of oil had even made it ashore and whose estimates had no relationship to reality.

Anyone who quotes McCrone as proof of any ongoing conspiracy against Scotland then has to believe that conspiracy also includes consecutive UK governments of both parties, the EU, OPEC, WTO, the multinational oil companies and the international oil markets are also involved!

ALL these governments, international organisations, multinational corporations and international markets colluding together to control nationalism in Scotland!

Get a grip of yourself.
43

Glaswegian,

Glasgow 29/03/2008 02:22:13
52 Highland Mighty: 'If you aren't interested in having any influence in regional/world affairs, please stop harping on about having "our own voice"... Again, your attempt to liken the UK and the USSR is nonsensical in every context.'

You're clearly not interested in engaging with the points raised, which is a pity because it holds down the level of debate.





44

Colin P,

29/03/2008 02:24:39
54
Scotland will inevitably be an equal member if the EU.

It will have it's voice there.

In the meantime, Scotland should have it's own identity.
Scotland is different from England, Wales and N Ireland.
It's laws are different, it's education system is different.
What is your problem with Scotland being an independent nation??
45

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 02:28:13
61. LOL!

I'm going to bed!
46

Colin P,

29/03/2008 02:29:58
65
We accept your surrender
47

Edward,

29/03/2008 02:32:50
Scotland will only play an major role in the 21st century if it becomes an indpendent state.
For 300 years it has played second fiddle to England, in what was supposed to be a union of equals. It is now time to move forward and dissolve the union between Scotland and England and have two seperate and identifiable Kingdoms.
The pretence that the United Kingdom is an important force in the world is an illusion
48

Colin P,

29/03/2008 02:32:58
The facts remain....we must ALL do our part to make Scotland a solid, reliable, healthy independent nation.

If you feel you cannot accomplish this, then leave..whether it be Scotland, or these pages.
I support Scotland, a free nation in the world of free nations.
Hokey? maybe, but that's how independence begins!

Alba gu brath
49

,

29/03/2008 02:35:24
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
50

Colin P,

29/03/2008 02:35:57
#676 Edward

Nice apology for a thousand years of conquest!

;-) lol
51

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 29/03/2008 02:36:42
Ms Alexander said she was not a Gordon Brown puppet

During the web chat, driven by questions from BBC viewers, listeners and online users, she was asked to score herself out of 10 for her performance since being elected leader unopposed in September last year.

"Rising all the time, I think is the answer," said Ms Alexander, adding: "Ten out of 10, 10 out of 10."

And Ms Alexander also dismissed claims of arrogance against Labour politicians and said her party's fight back was under way.

She added: "Frankly, as I look across the other benches in the parliament, I don't think the arrogance is on our side.

"I think that what people are looking for are politicians who are willing to listen, I think you will see this week that conference is listening and learning."

Aye right! It's obvious that Labour no longer believe in the claim of right and don't want Scots to decide their own future.

Game set and match to SNP.
52

Edward,

29/03/2008 02:37:03
'The Prime Minister delivered a stinging criticism of the SNP, and warned that Scots would only be able to make a difference to global challenges if they remained part of Britain'
This is proof, if proof were ever needed that Gordon Brown is dillusional! He is under the illusion that there would still be a 'Britain' or a 'United Kingdom' if Scotland became an Independent Kingdom. What he fails to grasp, like so many unionists, is that Scotland is one half of the United Kingdom. With Scotland becoming Independent, it in effect dissolves the Union and does away with the United Kingdom.It simply would not exist!
53

Edward,

29/03/2008 02:39:20
#70 Colin P
'a thousand years of conquest' ??
What thousand years are you on about
The United Kingdom has only existed for 300 years, or were you not aware of that?
54

Colin P,

29/03/2008 02:39:45
69 I thought you were going to bed!

I never said anything about 80% of Scotland want a referendum. Typical opposition...make up things as you go along.
The English answer to the Scottish Oil Reserve question is "It's in UK waters, why is this an issue?"

The more you rant, the stronger the movement becomes.
55

Colin P,

29/03/2008 02:41:21
73
England has been invading Scotland for over 1000 years, or were you not aware of that?

Face facts, Scotland is an older nation than England. Check with the Vatican on that, as they seem to be the world's historians.
56

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 29/03/2008 02:44:32
"Brown to Scotland: Think big and reject narrow nationalism"

This from the man who brought us the illegal war in Iraq. Has he no conscience or shame?
57

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 02:44:54
67. Get a grip. A country of 5m having 'major influence'? Not in a Europe of 500m people and not in a world of 6bn.

The UK is one of the world's top economies, one of the world's top political players (UNSC, EU Big Four, WTO, IMF, World Bank, OSCE, Commonwealth etc.) and also one of the big military forces, both independently and as part of NATO.

It is this triumvirate of economic/political/military power that gives the UK a very powerful voice in the world.

To deny all this is laughable and highlights the petty nature of the nationalist anti-UK attitude.

And now I AM off to bed.
58

Edward,

29/03/2008 02:45:46
#75 Colin P
I knew Scotland was an older nation state than England, just wasnt sure about the context agains the age of the UK. Thanks for clarifying
59

frank mcbride,

lusitania 29/03/2008 02:46:20
Highland Mighty.

Does ridicule frighten you?

Please respond with your supra-galactic wisdom to my #51.

We await with baited breath.
60

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 02:47:26
Jeez, here come the Wallace rants again.....ffs

That fecking Gibson has got a lot to answer for!
61

clochoderic,

dougie`s dodgy district 29/03/2008 02:48:30
For once the Scotsman goes right ahead - well said all of you.
Even you, Slightly Blighty.
62

frank mcbride,

lusitania 29/03/2008 02:50:36
Highland Mighty.

#79. Or, perhaps, ridicule confuses you. Maybe your interpretive abilities are lacking, you condescending troll.
63

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 02:51:23
Post 51 is just gibberish. There is nothing there to respond to.

For sterters, you seem to suggest the USA does not benefit from its size and wealth.

Look up 'psychosis' and maybe find an online test as well.

Night, night.

LOL!
64

Colin P,

29/03/2008 02:51:37
78
Scotland was an independent state until 1707 when the Acts of Union, despite widespread protest across Scotland,[9][10] resulted in a union with the Kingdom of England to create the Kingdom of Great Britain

If this is hard for you to deal with, I suggest a week or two of Teletubbies.
65

Colin P,

29/03/2008 02:55:08
By the way, for everyone's info....(not that it matters a great deal) I'm also a Rangers supporter.

Talk to your counselors about that one! LOL!!
66

Edward,

29/03/2008 02:56:36
#77 Highland Chicken
Your as dillusional as Gordon Brown
First of all each country in the EU has a say in EU matters, that includes countries such as Denmark and Finland, which, like Scotland has 5 million population. So population size doesnt actually count for much in the say of things in the EU.
You forget that Scotland contributes a chunk towards the UK economy, or do you think England does it all by her self?
As for World power, the UK lost its global reach in 1945 and has been a joke ever since, with its pretence of world power
There are plenty countries out there that have more power that the UK. An Independent Scotland would have the same say in world matters as the current UK does
An Independent Scotland would be a member of the UN, a member of WHO, UNESCO, the Commonwealth, the EU and most probably an associate member of NATO
I would rather have an Independent Kingdom of Scotland taking an active part in world affairs, fighting its corner for world peace and stabilty, than have a tired and pathetic United Kingdom, that is regarded as a joke around the world.
Roll on a referendum, you know it makes sense, support the referendum if you have the balls
67

gaffer,

Kamloopsbc , canada 29/03/2008 02:57:16
almost a bit late to enjoy any comments re my thoughts.
but when I was growing up in suburban Edinburgh ( craigmillar ) I had many trips into London and I was always amased at the better homes ( Council ) they had down there than we ever had, we were the very poor partners in this . and this hasnt changed in the 50 years we have been away although we try to come home every 4 or 5 years.
if things are so good there now , why are so many "Brits " buying in spain etc for a better living no one ever talks about this outflow.
68

Edward,

29/03/2008 03:00:19
#84 Colin P
easy big man, Im on your side!
your teaching the wrong man about history
69

Colin P,

29/03/2008 03:03:08
87 I understand what you're saying. I've visited the UK and traveled throughout Scotland, England and Wales over the years.
I notice that Scotland has a different attitude to life than England has.
Even today, with a new employee (English) who hates all things "Jock", I still feel the need to stand up for Scotland.
70

Colin P,

29/03/2008 03:04:13
cheers Edward, you chose the wrong name, my friend!

MY APOLOGIES.
71

Edward,

29/03/2008 03:04:44
'But he stressed this could only be achieved if people, countries and continents worked together and did not retreat into nationalist self-interest'
So why are more and more countries becoming Independent?
Brown is a complete and utter fool
Ive heard this sort of rubbish from Labour before, its repetition is now worn and tired
I would rather have a new and Independent Scotland that have a Union that serves no one but the self serving unioist politician
72

Edward,

29/03/2008 03:06:22
#90 Colin P
No problem!
73

Edward,

29/03/2008 03:17:00
What I find amusing is the Labour party seem to be doing everything they can to attack the SNP Government and policies adn how bad the SNP are, which is the theme for the weekend love fest in Aviemore. BUT not actually stating what Labour would do for Scotland. So far no mention of the review (formerly commission), proposals for tax raising in scotland, nothing zip
Then again Labour spent eight years doing absolutely nothing for Scotland, so probably dont see the point of changing that habit!
74

frank mcbride,

lusitania 29/03/2008 03:18:19
#83, Highland Mighty.

Any Scot has a good sense of the ridiculous. However your ridiculousness is unparalleled.

And yes, the US has influence because of its size but, is it beneficial to the common weal? Was the USSR's? Was the UK's, was ANY Imperial influence?

You argue that the Bully is right. Do you, in your heart believe that? If you do, shame on you.
75

2Right,

On Location 29/03/2008 03:44:12
Broon and Alexander have no chance at the next elections.
Labour should never be allowed back into Power in Scotland and if broon takes them to the polls then they are doomed.
Labour created nothing but oppression and Injustice's and refused to correct these in the form of Lockerbie and brought our country into disrepute over this whole shambles.
Shame on them
76

,

29/03/2008 04:08:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
77

Navvy,

singapore 29/03/2008 04:08:47
#18 because we, as the worlds second biggest overseas investor, own theirs

You just don't get it do you? It is an international world and you get most out of it by opting in.

On of the reasons why the City is so succcessful is GMT. If you work in the UK you can do business with teh Far East, Japan, China and with the Americas in the same calendar day. They can't.
But we do need good infrastructure in London AND elsewhere
78

Navvy,

29/03/2008 04:17:26
#1 & 2
See how many Scots play on the Westminster stage
Our Dear Leader, Comrade Broon.
Tony Blair
Lord Foolkes.
Wendy Alexander.
Andy Kerr.
Michael Martin
Lord Irvine.
Jack Cunningham
John Reid.
Henry McLeish

You are wron on these issues
Nuclear power stations - the mistake of Labour was to abandon nuclear. Ther should be moreresearch into clean nuclear fusion. 10 years would see it done

ID cards - would reduce the theft from every taxpayer by free loaders on the NHS and all benefits from housing to education and the bru

Scottish Election shambles - Scots who can not understand simple written and advertised aforehand instructions do not deserve a vote. My 90 year old mother got ti right and 17M Malaysians have just held such a state and national election without any problems
Fly British Flag from public buildings

Invest heavily in London infrastructure -e.g. High speed rail, Heathrow - much needed see #98 BUT also over the whole UK

Massive closures of Scottish Post Offices - quite right, you are not using them so why should I subsidise them? Solution? Think out of your wee box for one

79

Jimmy the Pie,

29/03/2008 04:40:55
Navvy # 98

When you say 'we'do you mean UK companies?? UK government?? UK pension funds?? What companies are you talking about???
Who owns EDF?? EON?? Scottish Power?? BAA, Abbey National, National Grid, Yorkshire water, Thames Water??
You seem to be suffering the same delusions of grandeur that afflicts Unionists. No doubt harking back to the good old days of the Empire.
Quite sad really.
80

Jimmy the Pie,

29/03/2008 04:45:34
#99

I would dearly love for NO Scots to be playing on the Westminster stage. I'll happily leave it for your own corrupt chancers (of whom there are many) to screw things up.
I would have thought you'd be glad to get rid of us ungrateful Scots.
81

donald,

glasgow 29/03/2008 04:48:38
Think big and reject narrow British nationalism
82

,

29/03/2008 05:16:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
83

Jimmy the Pie,

29/03/2008 05:33:24
#104 DaveK

Why can't you see that a nation like Scotland would prosper and thrive. Do you have no self respect or dignity. Or are you employed by the Unionist cabal to stir up trouble, on these postings, sadly bordering on racism?
84

,

29/03/2008 05:49:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
85

Dr. James Wilkie,

Vienna 29/03/2008 05:50:09
I agree with Gordon brown. Start thinking in global terms and reject narrow British nationalism. The world is too small a place for that nowadays.

86

Geoff,

sa 29/03/2008 06:22:48
Good Morning All.

This should be fun today!Quite a contrast between the views of Jimmy the Pie and Highland Mighty!! Personally, I prefer those of the latter!
87

Jimmy the Pie,

29/03/2008 06:40:06
Dr. James Wilkie #107

Did you agree with Comrade Broon when he congratulated Kosovo on gaining their independence??
88

Jimmy the Pie,

29/03/2008 06:43:25
#108 Rulesbutnotrulers

Which country just lowered their bank rate yet mortgages rates are going up??
89

Media 1,

cape town 29/03/2008 07:21:38
I have heard nationalists suggest that Scotland should go it alone on many occassions. You know the situation you have been in it many times, whether in the pub, at a barbeque or out for a drink, at work or in the taxi talking to the cabbie, the nationalist always says Scotland should be independent because we dont need England. I always wonder what England has to do with anything. England is a small country like Scotland who happens to be part of the same union we are part of along with Wales and N.Ireland, so what's all this England talk I used to wonder. But then you realise that nationalists are the ones who take Bannockburn the most seriously, nationalists are the ones who see nothing wrong with singing flower of Scotland, nationalists are the ones who would glady agree to Scotland being independent and follow the freedom fighter Salmond without even considering the consequence. Driven by misplaced pride and a distorted sense of history they, IRONICALLY are the true danger to Scotlands future. And typically, if it does go wrong under the SNP, it will be the unionists as usual who will be called upon to bail the nationalists out..
90

FTH22inarow,

29/03/2008 07:22:18
We need independence, to protect us from another 18 years of evil tory rule from down south, remember Thatcher
91

DaveK,

Edinburgh 29/03/2008 07:26:11
#113 Well said hit the nats sorry nail on the head.

#114 still living in the past, the world has moved on.
92

FTH22inarow,

29/03/2008 07:27:00
tories are and always will be tories and not to be trusted
93

Mikey,

29/03/2008 07:31:33
Can any of the onanists on here tell me why Britnat = ok and ScotNat - evil?

Or are you all brainwashed cretins?
94

JimC,

Kilmarnock 29/03/2008 07:48:34
#8 31. In Scotland, unemployment is at its lowest in 34 years.

That is a barefaced lie, around 1974 I was in my 20's where you could leave a job on the Thursday, get an interview on Friday and start Monday, no CV's, no 5 page applications etc. You are on another planet mate.
95

eric,

29/03/2008 07:50:39
Think big Eh.What like T5 ! and network rail! etc etc etc etc .No thanks,,Think ill pass on that.
96

rancid brown,

EU referendum? 29/03/2008 08:17:24
Yes, but they aren't listening to us. They're obeying their masters in Brussels.

And Ms Alexander also dismissed claims of arrogance against Labour politicians...

"I think that what people are looking for are politicians who are willing to listen, I think you will see this week that conference is listening and learning."

97

Labour voter,

29/03/2008 08:23:15
(now SNP voter!)
I watched "Braveheart" again last night.
98

eric,

29/03/2008 08:26:03
122 Now thats SAD,Remember it was Wee jack that wore the KILTS in Parliament and NYC ! End
99

The Strategist,

29/03/2008 08:26:33
Excellent article here http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/opinion/Joyce-McMillan-Was-Sarkozy-in.3927196.jp

100

,

29/03/2008 08:35:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
101

morris,

edinburgh 29/03/2008 08:36:56
119 JimC,Kilmarnock

According to NEW LABOUR,unemployement was actually at least 1 million higher than the figures which were published under the Conservatives because of the way they were compiled. (they exclude Incapacity claimants for a start,who are unemployed, but not receiving Job Seekers Allowance)

Two possibilities therefore exist.
1) There was an increase of at least 1 million overnight when Labour stopped this practice
OR
2) They still use doctored stats.

I DO NOT RECALL ANY INCREASE AT ANY TIME
CONCLUSION: LABOUR's FIGURES CAN ONLY ALSO BE A LOAD OF ************* UNIONIST CLAPTRAP.

You can't have it both ways guys!
Either you stopped and it increased or your a bunch of liars also.

YOU ARE CORRECT JIM C. You cannot be wrong!
102

dylan2,

peterhead 29/03/2008 08:37:17
Is it not good to see the so called head of state visiting his domain and giving moral support to his sheep!!
But what gets me is his secret dislike to the SNP where as the Welsh/Northern Ireland governments he has some say in the affairs of state.
Why would it be in Scotland’s interest to stay in the union?
103

GM,

29/03/2008 08:51:53
@125

Amazing

Yet another person who actually believes Scotland should continue cap in hand tied to another nation as a crutch.

Brainwashing at its finest.

"Scotland would lose incredible international influence"

Ahem, Scotland at the moment has zero international influence. As an independant nation Scotland's influence could only ever increase.

"We would not even be allowed into Europe because Europe"

Says who? cite any legal authority to support your claim.

"I'm fed up hearing about Scotland's oil"

and so you should be - you should also be sickened by it, disgusted and angry.

"Well there is only a few years left so it is irrelevant really"

oh my goodness - "its ok that the oil was raped by England 'cos there'e only a weed rop left" - head int he sand stuff. Could you imagine if all the revenue still poured but to scotland alone - oh yes, that would make us the second richest oil nation in europe. And there's plenty left to hedge money away a la Norway for the future without oil.

"Who do you think pays for all the differences we have between us and England"

Better financial management. A lower population. Real Scottish investment. etc etc.

"Devolution is good, independence is a nice dream but a very silly dream, it could so easily turn into a nightmare."

and how would you describe the last 50 years in Scotland? The worst nightmare?


Take yer blinkers off.
The facts are that I for one would be happy to be part of an independant scotland. It cannot be any worse than things are now (or have been) and at least we wouldn't have some imaginary 'begging bowl' mentality that has been thrust upon us.
104

cabrach loon,

inverness 29/03/2008 08:53:01
It strikes me that Broon being too incompetent to sort out his mess in the UK thinks he is competent to sort out the mess that is Africa - God help us and them!

Logically one can only do this and spare the funding for it once the UK is up and running - so help me - Terminal 5 only a moroin puts anything new full speed ahead at full load instead of bringing it on line gradully!
The UK health service - export the knowledge to run dirty hospitals and then underperforming schools, how to create young knife wielding thugs, police who have to look after their own safety first and foremost! What a pathetic interferedd with mess run by a bunch of unskilled immature, business stupid incompetent career politicians.
Worst of all there seems no viable alternative except the SNP who at least put Scotland first and seem to have their hearets in the right place.
One year of oil for UK would give 10 for Scotland, with that we could have a good transport system, schools etc. and be the envy of the world! After that we could afford top be charitable, knowing that charity begins at home - something Broon has yet to recognise!
105

walter,

29/03/2008 08:59:43
CHRIS Hoy last night became the first cyclist to win world titles in four different disciplines.
No mean feat but he wont be congratulated by some of his fellow Scots and why? he was representing GB and while doing his lap of honour wrapped a union flag over his shoulders.
Gordon Brown need not worry as the majority of Scotland does reject the narrow minded pettiness of nationalism.
I read the words illegal war when people are referring to Iraq, although I did not support the invasion and believe Blair lied I have not heard of any body or organization that has the authority to do so declaring the war illegal.
Can any of those that call the war illegal inform me of what body which has the legal authority to do so has declared the war illegal and when they did so.
106

GM,

29/03/2008 09:00:41
@108

can you just explain why an island that is closer to greenland than europe, has a population of about 300,000 is comparable to scotland?

You see, its not comparable *because* it is an independant sovereign state *able* to make its own decisions about its *own* economy.

And, if you do want to draw a comparison, well reas it and weep -

Iceland
========

As of 2007, Iceland is the most developed country in the world according to the Human Development Index and one of the most egalitarian, according to the calculation provided by the Gini coefficient. Based upon a mixed economy where service, finance, fishing and various industries are the main sectors, it is also the fourth most productive country per capita. Icelanders have a rich culture and heritage. Iceland is a member of the UN, NATO, EFTA, EEA and OECD, but not of the European Union. The country is a candidate for a non-permanent seat at the UN Security Council.



How does that sound? Is that Iceland or an indpendant Scotland?
107

morris,

edinburgh 29/03/2008 09:02:49
The asnwer is it would not be in Scotlands interests to stay,but it would make a big difference to London who currently recieve 114% of the taxes they contribute into the UK.(Governments own figures)
There is also the mismanagement of the economy despite 237 billion from Scottish Waters ,and borrowing which has to be repaid,and independent Scotland can pay her share okay,but she has to pay Englands share also or everybody will realise that the Iron Brew Chancer (of the Exchequer) is like his predecessor,a big NUMPTYHEID.
108

Geoff H,

Fife 29/03/2008 09:03:29
Jimmy Pie 1, 2 & 4 - says it all really.

Obviously one can be Scottish & British and proud of both because people post it and presumably must believe it. However, that is one thing I can never understand. How can one be proud to be Scottish and also be proud to be part of a new 'nation' which, without labouring the point, usurps my old country?

Having lived in England for many years I never once felt I had much in common with my friends there other than being from one of England's outlying regions...

As for all this 'power and influence' the Unionists want. Why? So we can continue to bully our way to prosperity? Personally I would rather feel comfortable that my country was true to its people and their values rather than have representation that ignores the populace, crashing around on the world stage like a drunken, power-mad yob. But then again perhaps that's why I feel so awkward about it - all I would like is the chance for my country to be able to manage her own affairs. Apparently that makes me, according to most Unionists, some sort of English-hating moron.
109

John S,

29/03/2008 09:04:47
#125..........because Europe does not want breakaway nations like Scotland - but Scotland will have held a referendum and I am sure the EU would respect the will of the Scottish people if they vote for independence.
With 62.4% of the EU’s proven oil reserves and 12.5% of the EU’s proven gas reserves plus fishing grounds I don't think the EU would say no plus we are already citizens of the EU.
110

GM,

29/03/2008 09:06:27
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7319850.stm

Alexander to go on SNP offensive

Wendy Alexander is to make her first leader's speech to Labour's Scottish conference in Aviemore on Saturday.

Ms Alexander is expected to ridicule First Minister Alex Salmond's idea of a triple-option referendum on independence.

It is also thought she will accuse the SNP government of incompetence and dishonesty.



------------------------------------------------------
Incompetence and Dishonesty?

by-words for Scottish Labour these days?
I honestly haven't seen much, if anything, of incompetence or dishonesty from any other party outside labour over the last year.

111

James Moore,

Edinburgh 29/03/2008 09:09:50
As a proud Scot and also proud to be British, i am sick and tired of the SNP brigade harping on about independence! I have quickly read the comments above.

Never mind waiting for the vote for independence to be called. I would cut Scotland free now and let it fend for itself!

Then lets see the Scottish tax payer finance the long term unemployed Scots who are workshy! Also the alcoholic Scots who enjoy it too much! Also health care for the Scottish smokers and alcoholics in Scotland!

RACISM IS ALIVE AND CLEARLY EVIDENT IN SCOTLAND!
112

GM,

29/03/2008 09:12:34
@134
Geoff

well said - give me independence and any circumstance that follows simply because at least we could *ourselves* decide what to do, and how to do it.

If England is so supportive of Scotland why do they desperately cling on - Why would anyone in England want scotland to remain in the UK? Thats the real puzzle... if we have been such a drain on English resources for so long, why didn't they kick us out years ago? Why now when independence is back on the agenda is England not clamouring for the same?
113

The Strategist,

29/03/2008 09:13:52
Highland Mighty says the UK is the leading destination for inward investment into Europe and is second only to the USA globally (substantially more is annually invested in the UK than even China).

Yes - he may be correct but this isn't manufacturing he's talking about but investment of cash into the City. It's the same the other way... UK financial institutions are not investing in productive capacity overseas but generally into banks and property. In other words this isn't great job creating type investment either way.

He also follows the AM2 line of how wonderful the UK GDP/capita is. As I've asked before can they please point out to me the UK Volkswagen, Siemens, Porsche, Alcatel and the numerous other high tech high value adding companies that we must therefore have created overnight.
114

jdships,

29/03/2008 09:14:55

Am not a Nationalist voter but my thoughts last night watching TV news were -

Gordon Brown's speech while supposedly "casual" was so obviouisly script rehearesed
What a sad apology for a Prime Minister
Unelected and and has now become unelectable.

We now have Wendy "10/10" Alexander to look forward to today - ah michty me what a thought !!
115

GM,

29/03/2008 09:16:26
@138

James,
the 'workshy unemployed' you refer to are a Labour creation. The benfits culture is a Labour creation.

I actually find your comments about smoking and drinking mildly offensive given its a slightly scottish stereotype based on a 300 year ;union dividend'.

Don't you get it? the scottish things you complain about were *created* by the union with England and yet you would strive to stay in that union and 'punish' scotland by cutting it free?

racism - smaschcism,
the argument trotted out by all unionists who can only see racism where nationalism and scotland appear together - lame.
116

morris,

edinburgh 29/03/2008 09:20:45
131

UNITED NATIONS alone,has that authority (but was ignored by the USA and the UK).
Kofi Annan denounced the invasion as not having UN support and that is the ONLY legal status that can exist under international law.

THE WAR WAS ILLEGAL .END OF DEBATE

When Blair said in two consecutive weeks "I have seen conclusive proof of W.O.M.D"
and a week later " I still belive they exist" some people (including foreign secretary Robin Cook )realised that these two statements are chronologically impossible,and Blair is lying .Its impossible for him to be telling the truth,because you CANNOT GO FROM IT EXISTS(I have seen proof) to I ONLY BELIEVE IT EXISTS !

Its chronologically impossible for these two statements to BOTH be true.

BLAIR and BROWN WERE BOTH LIARS . INDISPUTIBLE FACT

THW WAR WAS ILLEGAL but you have to be pretty thick to not realise it !
117

Geoff H,

Fife 29/03/2008 09:21:19
138

I agree with your second comment albeit seemingly posted with spite.
Are you suggesting that Scotland is the only country that has people who are workshy, alcoholic and smoke? Or are we to assume that your spite went a little further there? Perhaps if Scotland were Independent again we would be able to address these 'problems' realistically rather than using them (alcohol & smoking) as poor excuses to up tax. I mean, for goodness sake, does raising tax revenue on whisky really address the problems of problem (youth) drinking in particular?
118

GM,

29/03/2008 09:21:37
@141

yes, her '10 out of 10' comment is *another* foot in mouth episode that will surely haunt her...

After all, even staunch unionists and labourites have been critical of her performance to date and yet she declares herself a perfect 10!?!

Incredible stuff that she effectively admits that what she has done to date is the best she can do and in her own view has been 'perfect'... what a foot in mouth moment!
119

GM,

29/03/2008 09:24:50
@145
no spite form me mate - just a bit of passion that could be misinterpreted in the written form,

There are problems in scotland, but as the self confessed 'proud scot' that you are don't you think it would be nice to address issues ourselves...? 50 years of labour in scotland and 300 of governance from england have created the situation.
120

pehman,

sussex 29/03/2008 09:25:02
Keir Hardie a man of vision, he foresaw brown and alexander and left the lab party to set up the SNP
121

John S,

29/03/2008 09:28:13
#139: GM - If England is so supportive of Scotland why do they desperately cling on - Why would anyone in England want scotland to remain in the UK? Thats the real puzzle... if we have been such a drain on English resources for so long, why didn't they kick us out years ago? Why now when independence is back on the agenda is England not clamouring for the same?

I have also asked myself the same questions and I can only come up with this possible answer amongst others:-

Jack Straw said (July 2006) - A broken-up United Kingdom would not be in the interests of Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland, but especially not England. Our voting power in the European Union would diminish. We'd slip down in the world league GDP tables. Our case for staying in the G8 would diminish and there could easily be an assault on our permanent seat in the UN Security Council.

Notice Jack was concerned not about Scotland but about England (UK) if Scotand left the UK.
122

morris,

edinburgh 29/03/2008 09:29:10
138 James Moore

Salmond was a senior economist with the Worlds Fourth largest bank. He knows economics .
(It was Fifer Adam Smith who fathered this discipline for God sake and taught the world how to run)
You on the other hand think you know what you are talking about, and nothing could be further from the truth.
Scottish independence has bog all to do with racism .
Self determination is what its about and economically sound is what it indisputibly is.

People have the right to debate their future,and when a majority favour indpependence thats what we shall be
just as we accept the majority wish currently.
You are tired hearing about independence? So?
YOu can stay or leave as is your choice.No one forces you to do anything outwith democratically made decisions.
123

GM,

29/03/2008 09:29:48
@144
sorery to burst your bubble mate but the UN does not create and maintain 'international law'...

'International Law' simply doesn't exist in reality and binds no countries to anything or anyone.

Yes, the war was wrong, yes 'International law' is trotted out by the UK when it suits it, but don't be fooled... there is *no* 'international law' in the ture sense of the words.

I stand to be corrected if you can show me one single legal agreement enshrined in legislation that has been adopted by *every* government of *every* nation on the planet withint their own legislation.

Not arguing with you about the war thing - just correcting what is a very tiresome 'slogan' by anti-war protestors.

The war went against a UN resolution.
UN resolutions are *not* 'international law'.
124

Geoff H,

Fife 29/03/2008 09:33:03
147


I agree it would be wonderful to be given the chance. Hence the call from Scots wishing to have that chance (or should that be given the opportunity to have that chance)of Independence.
125

GM,

29/03/2008 09:33:47
@149

sadly John, you are correct.

I do know the answers to all the questions I posed, but didnt print them here as so as not to upset the unionists.
126

Dick Lynas,

Glasgow 29/03/2008 09:37:53
In the last analysis, the fundamental problem for the SNP and their notions of independence is that they came along approximately 250 years too late.
It's too late to turn the clock back now - not least with BST fast approaching.
127

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 29/03/2008 09:40:24
I thought Scotland was thinking big by leaving the 'protection' of a 300 year old UK union and entering the world as an Independent country.

Furthermore, were Gordon Brown to be residing over a Labour Party at the top of its game 14/16 points ahead of the opposition rather than 14/16 points behind and his personal standing to be plus rather than minus, his words would carry more weight.

But I do agree with him that Wendy could follow Alex as First Minister, probably about the 2nd or 3rd election following Independence.
128

GM,

29/03/2008 09:41:54
@154

Dick,

I actually partially agree with you.

After 300 years scotland has become somewhat 'resigned' to the union rather than being positively 'up for it'.

I often wonder if scotland had been independent for the last 300 years would we really, at any stage now, be clamouring for a union? I think the anser is 100% no.

I still, though, believe that it is not too late...

To take the example fo Iceland someone referred to earlier -
Only indpendent since about 1940something...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Iceland

Looks like those small nations that go it alone can make huge advances.
129

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 29/03/2008 09:45:15
Media 1 states:

"And typically, if it does go wrong under the SNP, it will be the unionists as usual who will be called upon to bail the nationalists out.."

When in the past have the unionists been "called upon" to bail out an SNP Government? Answer = never.

Your dishonesty is there for all to see.
130

Callum MacPherson,

Edinburgh 29/03/2008 09:52:31
ANY FORWARD THINKING PERSON living in Scotland now will realise that for the long term health and prosperity of Scotland, in a world of international globalisation, independence is the only way forward.

Brown talks about barriers going up if independence was won. However as things stand, since the final fall of Britain's empire 50 years ago, the Union itself has been a barrier for Scotland. Scotland must have direct access to the world at large, that is for the sake of our economy and our national culture.

Economies will go through rises and falls but as far as the UK is concerned, the economy will always revolve around London. That is no longer good enough for Scotland, a country that has a choice, should the people decide they want it.

There is no room for animosity for England. Scotland signed up freely to the Union. However, now Scotland must freely end it and move on once again. Only that will be progress for our country.

131

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 29/03/2008 09:57:17
Is Wendy really going to have the arrogance to call Salmond dishonest? She really will be sailing close to the wind if she does.
132

colin, crombie,

dunfermline 29/03/2008 10:01:09
scotland and her people do think internationally. we are prevented from playing our part on the international stage by London. Stop the world, Scotland wants to get on.
133

Truely English,

29/03/2008 10:01:39
Is it not time to have one British Football Team as we have with Rugby. Seeing everyone working together and being involved in sport would raise the varoius parts of Britain at the same time.

We do this culturally and socially, then why not on the spoting field as well.
134

subrosa,

29/03/2008 10:01:58
# 101

Super cartoon. Thanks.
135

Derick fae Yell,

The Hoose 29/03/2008 10:04:18
I know it's wrong to get personal - but still, I just find Gordon Brown deeply deeply creepy. More Lurch than 'Supreme Leader'.

And the bloody war was wrong, irrespective of whether 'international law' exists or otherwise. Was wrong. Is wrong, and the people responsible should be prosecuted under any jurisdiction possible.
136

morris,

edinburgh 29/03/2008 10:06:36
151

Agreed

The authority of United Nations has always been at best iffy. Its now even less.
IN fact there is a New World Order which proves the point.
UNITED STATES
UNITED KINGDOM
UNITED NATIONS.

It is nevertheless the case that the invasion was against the wishes of the international community,and KOfi Annan said so. He was asked a direct question,(televised and witnessed by millions),which was," In your opinion Is this an illegal invasion "?He was reluctant but eventually answered "YES".
I agree that the legitimacy is a term which I use ill advisedly since clearly you can just ignore what the UN says.I dont accept however that it should be so only that it is as you say.

POint taken though !
137

Generalissimo Hernandez,

29/03/2008 10:07:12
"Think big and reject narrow nationalism"- vote for World Government!

I shall be announcing my candidacy for El Presidente anon.
138

subrosa,

29/03/2008 10:08:12
# 138 RACISM IS ALIVE AND CLEARLY EVIDENT IN SCOTLAND

What nonsense. If a person cannot defend their culture without being called racist then the world is full of racists - including yourself.
139

Alberto.,

29/03/2008 10:11:30
Considering the current disgraceful state of the UK - after all these many, many years under the Blair / Brown New Labour Party and their cronies,how on earth Brown could stomp around the Scottish Party Conference stage, and feel so proud of New Labour is beyond belief - proving the point, way beyond doubt, that ‘there are none so blind as though who do not wish to see!’

This Country, must surely now be being looked on as totally disgraceful, with its now very Low morals and kind of Politics, where theft of Public funds by Politicians is now considered as ‘part of the game plan - played accordingly and fully organised with rules to suit the system - and to hell with the Public! The Governments policies overall - in one ‘hell of a mess, and seemingly totally out of control!

‘Sods’ Law is fully in operation UKwise, with the added ingredient from New Labour of ‘if it can go wrong - it will, and if it don’t - New Labours efforts will surely help it on its way top do so!’ It’s one thing they appear to be experts at!’

It is obvious that Brown - and his Party, cannot wait for the EU to take total control and see everybody / everything as it should be in their eyes, and so the obvious reason for no referendum - this non-event especially avoided what could have been a great stumbling block to his / their desires - and, after all the untruths they have been credited with - well, what the hell is a broken promise here and there, and what do they think they can do about it right now - game won!

Considering his ambitions, being equal to that of the EC, I suppose, it could be said that his 'out of character' stage display at the Conference (no doubt well choreographed!) was a good show ‘Wordwise’ - and the added ‘goading’ of his audience by the ‘raised’ voice (a bit / lot of fist thumping rostrum would have added real zest to his speech, for his almost hypnotic sheep like audience!) - but what he did - considering the above, it must be said 'the boy done well!'

Bu
140

Derick fae Yell,

The Hoose 29/03/2008 10:13:00
138 self hatred and olympic standard cringing are clearly alive in Scotland!!! 'Proud Scot' hah! aye right
141

morris,

edinburgh 29/03/2008 10:13:07
161
Because we are probably leaving the UK apart from anything else and weakening the indpendence of the SFA is hardly a move forward is it ?

In any case we would not want to weaken our team by including players just for the sake of it. As Croatia' s coach said We (Scotland) have no need to fear anyone.
England on the other hand looked decidedly second rate.
End of Debate as far as I am concerned.
142

GM,

29/03/2008 10:13:15
@164

aye, the war was and is a bad thing and I don't mind admitting I was suckered at first into thinking it was all about WMD's.

I suppose part of the independance debate would include the choice of;

1 - Going to war when and if required based on Scotland's own choice

or

2 - Going to war because some muppet in Downing street just couldn't get enough of being the USA's poodle

143

MtnKat,

29/03/2008 10:13:59
"Mr Brown referred to the global challenges of climate change, disease and poverty and held up a vision of being the "first generation" to be able to tackle all of them."
Ah yes, let us dispense with the "parochial and "narrow" nationalism" that leads us to focus on tackling our own poverty and disease. By all means, let our own suffer whilst we cut a wide swath on the world stage as saviors of the planet.
Moron.
144

walter,

29/03/2008 10:14:11
#144
Now you have told me the war was illegal maybe you can direct me to where exactly the war has been declared illegal by the UN.
When did the UN security council sit and hear both sides of the argument and then declare the war illegal.
What resolution has the UN drafted declaring the war illegal.
You say the UN are the only body that can declare it illegal so when did they officially declare it so.
You have insinuated I am thick so produce the evidence that the war has been officially declared illegal by the UN.
145

Alberto.,

29/03/2008 10:15:22
#167 Cont'd.....

But the New Labour Leader although still a lot to learn, but with his predictions and desires, seems a very dangerous ingredient for a recipe to our future!

I well remember, not that many years ago, a little lively chappie, seemingly with much the same basic ambitions as Brown, New Labour and the EC, and where he would be ‘Kingpin!’ Many may have heard, seen, or even have experienced this beast of a man and his ‘madly insane’followers - and, like Brown and New Labour, caused a lot of trouble - with some millions of people, consisting of many differing nationalities -including his own kind, ordered them to really horrific torture, and ending being slain to death - in most cases, simply to satisfy his Political desires and ambitions!

His followers / supporters, just like the current sheep like flock of ‘New Labour / EC’ supporters, who it seems, remained silent - by demand, and probably accompanied with the threat of ‘or else’,
and he took their silence as the permission he required - to assure him he was ‘right’ in his vile operations - regardless!

Certainly a man with a penetrating and demanding, fully controlled rousing gift of the ‘Gab’ - as we may ever realise!

Remember him, a small insignificant little chappie called ‘Hitler!’

In Gordon Brown - and others, we may be breeding a new gang of our own ‘Little Hitlers - for Little Britain’ if the silence continues, because, as we see, ‘words’ are his sole ammunition in his endeavour to get total control - anywhere and any which-way! His practical endeavours, seemingly, so far, failed miserably, hence the state we now see ourselves in!

Be aware - be very aware, watch, listen and learn, but not for too long, or it may be too late!

146

Pilrig.,

Livingston 29/03/2008 10:15:50
Scottish nationalism = narrow; British nationalism = broad.
Ah well, now we know.
147

Generalissimo Hernandez,

29/03/2008 10:17:27
Walter

How is "Walter and Al's Bigtime Fun-Band" going?

Have you had many gigs?
148

Pilrig.,

Livingston 29/03/2008 10:20:29
138 of course racism is alive and evident in Scotland. It's probably more alive and evident in the UK as a whole. In fact is there a country in the world where it isn't alive and evident?
Some of us try to rise above it's insidious nonsense but some the of the lesser intelligent amongst us won't or can't.
149

ken 17,

kirkintilloch 29/03/2008 10:20:40
what is Brown [and Alexander] afraid of, if they're right, it'll be rejected.
are the people of scotland so untrustworthy they can't be trusted to decide on their own future
put up or shut up Brown!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
150

morris,

edinburgh 29/03/2008 10:21:15
161

We have seperate Rugby teams.England plays Rugby League and fields a team under the guise of Great Britain (not UK interestingly enough)but Ive seen precious few Scots involved if any.
The British Lions are a representative team drawn from all Home Nations including IRELAND which of course is not British.
Its therefore NOT a national side. It cannot be !
151

 Ayrshire Scot™,

29/03/2008 10:22:43
65. 2.28am - Highland Nighty "I am going to bed""

68. 2.35am - Highland MIghty "various dribble"

Blimey, he doesn't need much sleep does he. Sleep deprivation was on of the explanations I was pondering for his pompous, arrogant and nonsensical posts.
152

GM,

29/03/2008 10:24:32
@177

remember Ken,
to be a politician it is actually ingrained into you that 'people are intelligent but the public are stupid'.

Thats why politicians nowadays have actually completely forgotten that it is they who serve the public, not the other way around.

Its sad, but I see little chance for change in Labour or the Tories who have had it their way in our so-called democracy for too long.

Hence, another reason for scotland to go it alone. Politicians in smaller countries find themselves much more accountable and in touch with the public.
153

Pilrig.,

Livingston 29/03/2008 10:27:18
161 - err....sorry, no.

maybe we could develope your theme, "Edinburgh needs only one team..it would kill tribalism in the capital's football support..."
Shurrup Wallace, yer deid !
154

 Ayrshire Scot™,

29/03/2008 10:30:12
Why is Brown grandstanding on the constitution instead of focusing on services and running the country?
155

westview,

here and there 29/03/2008 10:36:51
Brown is just hoping that weird wendy will give him a job in Scotland when the good folks south of the border kick him out for his total failure at the next Westminster election when Labour is booted out of office. His international ambitions are crawling after Tony Blair on the worlds lecture trails.
156

Richardinho,

29/03/2008 10:39:00
Did Gordon's speech actually last for 3 days, or is there some other reason why this has been the Scotsman headline every day since Thursday?
157

morris,

edinburgh 29/03/2008 10:42:18
172

I have answered elsewhere but I shall repeat.
In a nationally broadcast interview on television witnessed by millions secretary general Kofi Annan was asked DO YOU (speaking as sec. gen. of United Nations)consider the invasion of Iraq to be illegal.
He gave an unequivocal answer YES.

United Nations had reccomended that the inspectors be allowed to finish and the weapons of mass destruction would be found therefore (if they existed).

Bush and Blair could not allow this.They never existed and invasion would become unjustifiable.They invaded therefore, against the declared wishes of United Nations and it was on every news broadcast world wide,and whenthey reached Bagdhad a marched past/ignored rioters and set uo a security cordon around the Oil Industry Headquarters, as per their orders!

This was an invasion to secure oil.
The chronology of Blairs statements are impossible,and Robin Cook realised this immediatley,and resigned as Foreign Secretary.Why do you suppose he resigned Walter?
You surely cannot fail to realise that Blair cannot make both statements and they are both true.You cannot go from it exists to it maybe exists! The other way round yes but thats NOT what he claimed.
Chronologically impossible means HE IS A LIAR .It cannot be anything else !
158

Pud Pu,

New Yorkk Ciityyy 29/03/2008 10:48:36
i'm a bit tired but Highland Miggty is a bit silly. he is throwing statsitics like an obsessed type I'ma stsistician for oil company here in NY and ken just how they can lie. cos his ststistics are for Uk yes but most relate to se eglund figures.
Check out stats for murder, heart attack, knife crime, health, cancer, attacks on polis etc and u see how bad the scots are. GDP per capita of small European contries Luxemburg, Ireland., Norway, denmark etc we can not allow those rebelious scots to achieve those figure or have good welfare system like those. we must divide and rulke them.

No surrender !
159

langtonian,

scotus 29/03/2008 10:53:24
#1#2#4+ later add ons.

Are you aware that the heading Comments applies to these colums.

With your above indicated postings above, being nothing other than a garbled listing of words,the column inches used are of such length as to deem the only useable as toilet paper or alternatively wallpaer.

Suggestion-it is best to know that the sole purpose of any given COMMENT is to explain one,s own position,relative position,to topical matters which are generally/basicly, daily news headlines.

It is a well known fact, lists such as you present,are treated as inconseqential, duly being ignored,a similar fate awaits those attempting to press their case with baffling reams of £SD./%percntage figures.

Why so?because at the end of the day,all apply their own spin to,what is in effct garbage,leaving nobody any the wiser.

Now with your 98 given headings,and assumming you are up to speed on all of the indicated headings ,all can look forward to an expose of some revealing inside knowledge of all that you listed subject matters.

Certainly you have quite a task in front of you,the world of political comment is beside its self in anticipation of some worldy gossip.

Do ignore any spelling mistakes as "the nit picker " is always on hand to rectify typoggrraffical erors.
160

 Ayrshire Scot™,

29/03/2008 11:05:59
187. Thank you for your comment on the suitability of another person's comment. This is progress from your usual brain-numbingly tedious habit of counting and assigning percentages to posts, but still falls short of cogent commentary on the article.

I think Brown, who has tea with and praises Thatcher, cuts millionaire's inheritance tax while closing 4000 post offices, sack 12,000 DWP workers, sacks 10,000 disabled workers by closing Remploy, not back-dating the police pay rise, and presiding over the chaos of Iraq and Northern Rock, should concentrate more on the mess of his own responsibilities rather than continuing with Labour's negative fairy tales about the SNP.
161

Andean Bogtrotter,

Elgin 29/03/2008 11:07:49
Has anyone read Simon Heffer in the Telegraph this morning. I thought it was only the Nats that were supposed to rant!

"Gordon Brown needs the Union - But do we?" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/03/29/do2902.xml
162

Media 1,

cape town 29/03/2008 11:08:40
In lamens terms, Scotland is the Coopers Lybrand, and The United Kingdom is the PriceWaterhouseCoppers.

Now Scotland could go it alone, as could Coopers Lybrand. But what gain would that bring to the country and the people in it, or the company and the people who work there?

A partnership is sometimes the best possible solution for all parties concerned, and Scotland like Coopers and Lybrand is fortunate to have access to such a dynamic and powerful parrnership.

Yes it would be nice for Coopers Lybrand to go it alone, but the benefits and the perks would be nowhere near as good, so you stay put and do the responsible business thing, as opposed to the selfish pride thing.
163

walter,

29/03/2008 11:09:53
185
I do not dispute that Blair is a lying little toerag (saying it politely).
I asked what body that has the authority to declare the war illegal has done so.
Kofi Annan may state it was illegal but he does not as an individual even as sec gen of the UN have the authority to declare it illegal.
Individuals, organisations and political parties can state it is their believe that the war was illegal, that however does not make it illegal.
It will only be illegal when a body that has the authority to declare it illegal does so.
You state that the UN has that authority and the war was illegal.
I ask again when did the UN (not one person) as an organisation officially declare the war on Iraq illegal.
164

 Ayrshire Scot™,

29/03/2008 11:14:24
190. Isn't it weird that 95% of mergers never realise the purported synergies and benefits spun for them?
165

,

29/03/2008 11:16:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
166

HEN BROON 5,

MONTE CARLO 29/03/2008 11:18:18
For countless years, the British Unionist Parties have been telling the people of Scotland, that they are subsidized by the English Taxpayer and that Independence is the certain road to ruin. Just recently some senior members of the Labour party have repeated this statement. Mr Trevor Philips in his Election Manifesto for the Lord Mayorship of London called for this subsidy to stop and the money be given to London instead Even from February 1990 in the days of the handbag wielding Margaret Thatcher quote `We English, who are a marvellous people, are really very generous to Scotland.' She was not alone in this, Scotland is constantly being sniped at by ignorant Tories who accuse Scots of having an inordinent level of funding. London's Evening Standard Newspaper has labelled the Scots `subsidy junkies' on innumerable occasions.

For nearly 300 years Scots have endured a barrage of such rhetoric which has sapped our innate Vitality and optimism. However I am asking the question 'Is it True?' Do the English Taxpayers really subsidize the Scots?

Those of us old enough to remember Josef Goebbels, (Hitler's infamous propaganda chief), know the quote he made:'If you tell a big enough Lie, and keep on repeating it, in the end people will come to believe it.' The big lie of Nazism is still believed today by deluded people, still taken in by his lies. It would appear that no serious research into this Subsidy Claim has been done in the past, due in no minor part to the excessive cloud of Secrecy coming from the Civil Service Establishment. The Information was there, but had to be ferreted out of the Stationery Office and Office of National Statistics. Before much of the Government paperwork was put on the Internet, this would have taken a researcher at least a year to extract the figures.

167

Daibhidh,

Edinburgh 29/03/2008 11:19:07
Yet more cock-and-bull from Scittish Labour and Gordon 'GB' Brown...

"What sense would it make within these islands, as the SNP do, to separate Scotland from the rest of Britain and make it more difficult to travel and to trade?"

What tosh...hasn't he heard of the EU???!!!! Tavel and trade will be just the same, it's called freedom of movement and it won't change with independence...these unionists are the most pesemistic and depressing people in Scotland; they're holding us all back...
168

Geoff H,

Fife 29/03/2008 11:21:51
And therin lies your point Media 1 - it is good 'business' to stay within the Union. In some people's opinions. Ah I get it now..so any desire (for whatever reason, economic, pride, perceived unfairness...) should be disregarded as it's not good business. Now where's my Union Jack undies?...
169

,

29/03/2008 11:22:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
170

brownlie,

glasgow 29/03/2008 11:22:33
138 You are NOT a proud Scot (why does that sound familiar. It is obvious from the tone of your post that you are not a Scot at all - you talk of Scotland as being in the third person.

I don't think we can take any lessons about racism from someone who refers to his fellow Scots(?) as workshy smokers and alcoholics.

As for Walter's continual bleating that the war was illegal.

Tommy Sheridan has been charged in court with telling lies which influenced 12 members of a jury.

Tony Blair has not been charged with telling lies - as you admit at 191 - which influenced millions in the UK and across the world and led to murder and mayhem.

Perhaps with your legally adept mind you can illustrate how one is taken to court and the other is not.

171

Aesop,

Edinburgh 29/03/2008 11:23:18
"Labour delegates gave Mr Brown a routine, if not rapturous, two-minute standing ovation, which he received with his wife Sarah on the stage.

It was as if the audience had been encouraged and surprised by the style of the speech and intrigued by the content, but not energised or inspired."

Either that or - like the rest of us - they thought he was talking crap.
172

 Ayrshire Scot™,

29/03/2008 11:23:19
191. When it voted against the US/UK security council resolution authorising force. The UK/US continued with force anyway.
173

,

29/03/2008 11:24:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
174

,

29/03/2008 11:27:16
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
175

,

29/03/2008 11:28:10
Comment Removed By Administrator
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176

MtnKat,

nit picking wangy bangy langy 29/03/2008 11:29:11
187 Ask and you shall receive.............
'Pot calling the kettle black', comes to mind.
177

MtnKat,

nit picking wangy bangy langy 29/03/2008 11:29:11
187 Ask and you shall receive.............
'Pot calling the kettle black', comes to mind.
178

MtnKat,

nit picking wangy bangy langy 29/03/2008 11:29:14
187 Ask and you shall receive.............
'Pot calling the kettle black', comes to mind.
179

MtnKat,

29/03/2008 11:32:39
Yikes!
Sorry all.
180

Truely English,

29/03/2008 11:35:22
The item I read about the organisation dealing with the Homeless in Aberdeen is simply appauling. Do these people have no thought for their felloo citizens?

And what about the poor defenceless animals as well. Is this the way the Scots treat those who are less fortunate than themselves once they get into power?
181

bluehead,

edinburgh 29/03/2008 11:36:17
the quicker we get rid of 'broonie and his mob the
better,him and his pile have destroyed this country
it has been parcelled up and sold of.
there is hardly a day passes by without some maniacal
decision being made that makes the brittish people
suffer even more
almost all the main businesses belong to foreigners
britain is no longer britain,we must have independence
to at least save what is left of what was once a great country
182

 Ayrshire Scot™,

29/03/2008 11:38:17
208. There not having been any homeless problem before now. And Labour having built a grand total of 8 council houses in Scotland in the last 8 years, and last week voting with the Tories against an SNP measure to facilitate council house building. Please take your Labour spin about "cuts" and place them in the big round file makred "Labour truths" along with Iraq, illegal donations, post office closures, sackings of 1000s of disabled workers through the clousre of Remploy.
183

Saul Tyre,

Germany 29/03/2008 11:39:23
#7&8 Highland Mighty

A mighty impressive list tinged only by the disastrous state of the Scottish central belt, making all the hard work you put in completely meaniningless.
184

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 11:42:06
Lots of screaming and kicking today by the nats, the death throes of this latest independence campaign are kicking off very early this time.

133. "London receives 114% of the taxes it pays"
- Wrong. You have completely misunderstood or misquoted that stat. To say London is subsidised is just stupid.

140. The UK's high-tech sector? How about GlaxoSmithetc., AstraZeneca, BAe, BT, Vodafone, BP, QinetiQ, BG...

182. We can say EXACTLY the same about Salmond, can't we!
185

 Ayrshire Scot™,

29/03/2008 11:45:46
212.

182. "We can say EXACTLY the same about Salmond, can't we!" The unionists did, last week.

Oh dear,exactly my point - the unionists did, last week.
When I said "Brown should stop grandstanding on the constitution and focus on services" I was merely quoting exactly what the unionists said last week about Salmond. Seems that when Salmond mentions the constitution he is grandstanding and ignoring other issues. No the unionists should really get back to their bread and butter issues - chaos in Iraq, Northern Rock, cooperation with rendition/ torture and "British Jobs for British Workers".
186

Saul Tyre,

Germany 29/03/2008 11:46:25
#60

S it was Denis Healey recently who was lying, was it?
187

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29/03/2008 11:46:55
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29/03/2008 11:48:02
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Iain fae Elgin,

29/03/2008 11:48:52
Scotland to Brown: Think bigger and reject Labour hypocrisy.
190

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29/03/2008 11:49:02
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29/03/2008 11:50:52
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29/03/2008 11:51:53
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29/03/2008 11:52:41
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SeriouslyAmused,

Ayr 29/03/2008 11:53:03
Highland Mighty is correct when he says the UK is at the top of the league tables for inward investment. What he fails to mention is that for 'inward investment' more correctly read 'company takeovers' - meaning the UK sells out more than any other nation. Now that's comforting isn't it? Of course if you want to be proud of the fact that, for example, 95 percent of the British car industry is foreign owned, then fine, keep wearing your Union Jack undies made in China...
195

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29/03/2008 11:53:21
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29/03/2008 11:54:19
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29/03/2008 11:55:24
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SeriouslyAmused,

Ayr 29/03/2008 11:58:11
Oh and while I am at it, Highland Midget also bangs the drum about the financial services being oh so important...yes well, let's see who is crowing when the next big crash comes...the overblown South East or those parts of the UK that have a semblence of a balanced productive economy.
199

Truely English,

29/03/2008 12:09:02
A good government at any level ensures that its most vunerable are cared for. Will this happen in Aberdeen.
200

rancid brown,

Filthy, lying labour 29/03/2008 12:16:15
Will Homeland Security (the Militarized Police State) Shock You Into Submission?

http://www.infowars.com/?p=995
201

WeThePeople,

Glenrothes 29/03/2008 12:16:34
#5 Truely English, you write:

'Good on you, Prime Minister Gordon Brown we are all British share and promote the same culture, lanmguage and way of life and should be very proud of what this country has achieved.'

Here is an extract from a book on Scottish history -

'Equally, the study of English history and the comparative neglect of Scottish history led to the acceptance of the false idea that the two countries share the same historic background. How far this can go was illustrated in 1965, when it was proposed that the seven hundredth anniversary of Simon de Montfort's parliament and the seven hundred and fiftieth anniversary of Magna Carta - both events which took place in what was at the time a foreign country - should be commemorated in Scotland...Scotland's past tends to be viewed through the eyes of English historians, who regard anything not English as quaint, backward or even downright barbarous.'

SOURCE: 'Scotland: The Shaping of a Nation', by Gordon Donaldson, p.117, ISBN 0 7153 6904 0.
202

mac1888,

Bute 29/03/2008 12:17:39
Think big and reject outdated unionism!!!!
203

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 29/03/2008 12:18:48
The Scottish national inferiority complex, as exhibited by so many of the above posters, will remain unchanged, independance, dependance, or UK.

In fact, if Scotland was 'independant' I really can't see anything much changing. Yaaaaaawn....
204

Truely English,

29/03/2008 12:22:09
We all share the English language and history of the country and this is further emphasised in Edinburgh through the good offices of the English Speaking Union, which I have had the opportunity to visit for lectures on many occassions.
Whether one accepts it or not we are all the same people.
205

rancid brown,

Corrupt EU - supported by Lib-lab-con and SNP 29/03/2008 12:24:52
EU membership to cost an extra £1bn
By James Kirkup
Last Updated: 1:10am GMT 29/03/2008

Britain will pay almost £1 billion more to the EU this year, taking the country's total contribution to more than £4 billion.

Vote UKIP!

206

uranus,

Falkirk 29/03/2008 12:24:58
I would not compare Ireland with Scotland. Scotland has strong manufacturing and service sectors compared to Ireland's situation before it joined the EU. I had business dealings with the third world 1970s and visited Ireland first time in late 1970s. I was appalled by the backwardness of the country, and in a way it was less industrialised than a third world country like India. Suffered from emigration mostly to UK and USA (and still is), and in effect was a basket case. It was EU subsidies of all kind, because it was a poorer region in EU, which attracted Irish expatriates and Irish Americans to come to Ireland and establish companies. In those days, it was a low cost economy there in terms of wages like the third world, and hence companies like Dell and Amazon established big presence there. But even then, Irish economy needed common Agriculatural Policy and the Irish were not happy that countries like Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary etc.. joining the EU as they were afraid that they would undercut even Ireland on matters of Agricultural costs. Scotland is not in that situation can do very well in the EU as an independent country.

Friends in the South of the border say that the Scots to hurry up with their independence to get rid of Michael Martin, Brown , Darling, Des Browne and Alexander.
207

rona,

dictionary corner 29/03/2008 12:26:25
Tin Man @231 wrote

In fact, if Scotland was 'independant' I really can't see anything much changing.

Apart from spelling it correctly.
208

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 29/03/2008 12:29:46
#235 rona

My apologees - theye didn't do speling good at the borstal.
209

rona,

29/03/2008 12:34:34
236 Mr Tin

Sorry Mr Tin. I withdraw.
210

rona,

29/03/2008 12:35:50
*But he then outlined his desire to take social justice around the world, pointing out the achievements of Labour over its last ten years in power and what he wanted to achieve in the future*

Like invade Iraq? Brilliant.
211

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29/03/2008 12:35:53
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European Scot,

29/03/2008 12:40:34
232

"We all share the English language and history of the country and this is further emphasised in Edinburgh through the good offices of the English Speaking Union, which I have had the opportunity to visit for lectures on many occassions.
Whether one accepts it or not we are all the same people"

Scotland has its own history, as does England.
Clearly you are very fond of your English.
A pity that doesn't include the spelling of same.
Occasion only has one 'S'.
English education was it ?
Better pay more attention to your own ' lectures' in future.
213

Andrew BOD,

31 Highland 29/03/2008 12:44:08
Scotland has little influence with the people of the South East of England, where the real decisions, both at home and abroad, are made. (As seen on 'What the English think of the Scots' on BBC the other night.) We are an irrelevance, or at the very most, 'a burden' to those from that part of the world. Their only interest in us is our land, natural resources, and the 5 million population they can use to say we are the second biggest country in Europe. Gordon Brown's 'Scottishness' has been a liability to the present government and has been a major factor in Labour's worst UK poll showing since 1987.

So to say that Scotland has influence on the UN etc..., is like saying the tea lady at Ibrox picks the Rangers team.
214

R Corbett,

Robert Corbett (Edinburgh) 29/03/2008 12:49:58

#239 - why are you talking like a rustic bumpkin? This is an internet thread, not a livestock auction
215

Dylan fan,

Planet earth 29/03/2008 12:50:02

My interest in Scotland is in a "homeland " kind of way.. I have never been there in reality. I would love to go there some day.. I am always interested in your concerns. I want the best for you! I have seen so many things that need attention. Surely you could be a bigger better world power on your own. Showing the world your strength and intelligence.. What does England do for you that you cannot do for yourselves? Of course Stocicism is natural to us..We tend to stand and let the fires lick up around us..when others would flee.. Scotland deserves better.. only you know what you need. ( Keep the oil! )
216

R Corbett,

Robert Corbett (Edinburgh) 29/03/2008 12:52:52

Gordon Brown is a pretty cool guy. He listens to the Arctic Monkeys and supports war in Iraq. hHe's also good at telling jokes.
217

R Corbett,

Robert Corbett (Edinburgh) 29/03/2008 12:54:05
#243 -

JA, WIR WOLLEN LEBENSRAUM. HEIL SALMOND
218

Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

29/03/2008 12:55:15
232 Truely English,29/03/2008 12:22:09

So do the Yankees, The Canuks, The Kiwis, The Ausies, The South Africans, The West Indians, and even the Netherlanders, who have recently made English thier 'Official Language of Business'.

But I am deafened by the silence from those countries in thier clamour to become part of, or re-admitted to, or be governance by the UK.

A very simplistic view that you are takin', historically Scotland was a nation state before England reared it's head through the terrible birth pains induced by infighting and tribal wars in the 6th to 10th centuries, and many of them carried on throughout the medieval period,(the wars of the roses, the dissolution etc.

What is now England has variously been overrun by Romans, Normans, Scots, Danes, Angles etc.

Whereas, what is now Scotland managed to repel the Romans and Normans, fought off the Danes and entered into treaties with them to preserve peace, and eventually regain those territories temporarily occupied by them, sent the Angles home to brood, and finally was subjugated by a parcel of Anglo-French traitors, who backed by a massive English Army and Fleet, after scurrying around Edinburgh for months, finally signed a deal in a midden in Edinburgh, so much was the Treaty hated that the people of Scotland, and in Scotland the people are sovereign, not the Monarch or Parliament, hunted the traitors, who mostly fled to their English Estates.

In effect the Treaty of Union never was a legal treaty, as the people who signed it had not the authority of the sovereign people of Scotland.
219

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 29/03/2008 12:55:36
Sorry, 241 was referring to 31 Highland Mighty
220

Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

29/03/2008 12:55:50
242 R Corbett,Robert Corbett (Edinburgh) 29/03/2008 12:49:58

It works!!!
221

R Corbett,

Robert Corbett, (Edinburgh) 29/03/2008 13:00:48
#248

P ish is spellified with an 'i' not a numeral 1, so it could work better, ken likesay gadge?
222

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 29/03/2008 13:01:59
#248 Rabies

You sound like you know a lot more about English history, than Scottish history... ho hum
223

boudica,

Glasgow 29/03/2008 13:06:48
I can see GB as the Natz Supporters Worried and it is Brilliant ...Well done Gordon ...
224

Fairfax,

29/03/2008 13:10:31
RWB (246): "Whereas, what is now Scotland managed to repel the Romans and Normans"

Scotland's primary weapon in repelling the Romans and Normans was its poverty, not its fighting strength: it really wasn't worth the trouble given the vastly greater agricultural wealth of southern Britain.

"fought off the Danes and entered into treaties with them to preserve peace"

How is this Scottish uniquencess? There was Viking settlement in many parts of the British Isles, together with war and, subsequently, treaties. Their main reason for paying greater attention to the English kingdoms was, once again, wealth: wealth attracts predators.
225

Calummac,

29/03/2008 13:12:55
if being part of the international community means supplying the cannon fodder for illegal wars in Iraq, raping and pillaging in Ireland and decimating Africa then I'd rather take a more noble but less high profile role
226

baron george foulkes etc...,

Undisclosed Edinburgh Hospital 29/03/2008 13:14:54
We will oppose any attempt by the SNP to be popular!
Its an absolute disgrace that the SNP should give people what they want,sepecially when they are doing it on purpose.
And yes Ms Alexander will be the next first minister I should know I'm a member in the house of lairds I recycle all the broon envelopes when they have been used!!

now where did I put my pills?????
227

Fairfax,

29/03/2008 13:16:14
Hen Broon 5 (225): "These jobs are counted as part of the shared U.K. total, never added to the London spend."

That's correct. However, London and the South East of England differ from Scotland in one key element which you have forgotten: their public sector is relatively small, unlike Scotland. It is London's private sector that generates the wealth which, even approaching recession, dwarfs the most generous GDP estimates for oil-rich Scotland.
228

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 13:27:03
With the extremely weak support for this latest independence campaign becoming more apparent with each passing day...so far we have:

1. Only 0.5% of the population have read the SNP's much publicised White Paper, the centrepiece of their manifesto!
2. Less than 0.001% have contributed to the SNP's taxpayer-funded National Conversation despite yet more heavy publicity
3. Less than 0.001% have signed the Scottish Convention's much-publicised worldwide online petition calling for a referendum
4. Less than 50 signatures have been gathered by the two main online petitions for independence/referendum on the No.10 site.

Disproving once and for all the oft-quoted nationalist lie that "80% of the population demand a referendum"

5. Support for independence in the last poll was the lowest yet at 23% with support for the UK in whatever form at 76%, the highest yet.
6. Support for the SNP has dropped in consecutive polls and is now 4% lower than its 'honeymoon' peak

And all this after 11 months of Salmond and co desperately trying to provoke anger and resentment with the UK!! A spectacular failure by any stretch of the imagination!!

With such weaknesses being revealed all the time, the nats are forced back to their old stalwarts of McCrone (that there is a global political/commercial conspiracy against Scottish nationalism) and events that happened hundreds of years ago!

Plus, of course, the endless abuse and insults!

It would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.
229

Geoff H,

Fife 29/03/2008 13:33:43
257

So with this overwhelming 'evidence' (repeated with regularity by your good self), why the fear of a referendum?

When the Union was created with spin, threat and against the wishes of the people why not finally allow the people of Scotland make the choice?

230

 Ayrshire Scot™,

29/03/2008 13:39:08
256. So what?
231

 Ayrshire Scot™,

29/03/2008 13:41:36
257. And yet the SNP maintain a big lead over Labour in the polls, the SNP government is much more trusted than Westminster, Salmond's popularity oustrips Brown, Alexander and the rest. the SNP government is dynamic with popular policies such as the council tax freeze, and the Unionists are in total confusion.



232

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29/03/2008 14:01:35
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233

Geoff H,

Fife 29/03/2008 14:06:49
"they would not accept an independent Scotland" - nonsense.
234

Nikostratos,

29/03/2008 14:12:00
#261 Ayrshire Scot™

you sure about that



labour 52%
conservatives 22%
lib dems 18%
snp 2%
dont knows 6%

the politician you would Most like to boo

Gordon Brown 20%
Wendy Alexander 5%
Alex Salmond 99%
235

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 29/03/2008 14:13:07
As an over-the-pond Scot I'm still trying to get my head around this.
OK, there's this "union" of four. (I'm not counting the little guys because they're little more than safe havens for white collar criminals. Much like Nassau under Blackbeard.)
Three of the four are "devolved" in some way. The fourth is not only the state government it's also the national government for the other three.
Most other federations spun off by the Limeys (Yanks, Canucks, Aussies) have clearly defined powers through a constitution. Based on everyone being more or less equal.
Sure there's a little argie bargie in the middle over who does what to whom. But overall it's understood.
Only an Englishman could have dreamed up a "union" where one of the unionist partners appears to have all the marbles. Even though it's currently being run by a goofy fellow from one of the devolved states. Who just went to the Highlands to tell his alleged countrymen being lorded over by the English is good for them.
Because it will bring "social justice" to the world.
Can someone explain? There's got to be some logic somwhere. Surely?
(Eyes go glassy, there's a ringing in the ears, springs begin popping from forehead, an ambulance is called.)
236

Raymond Thomas Brooke,

Leven England 29/03/2008 14:16:20
Gordon and Alistair have now given another £800M to the EU obviously we cannot find any thing to spend it on in this country or is to give EU mP's access to more expenses.
237

Fairfax,

29/03/2008 14:37:34
Neil Waugh (265): "Based on everyone being more or less equal. Sure there's a little argie bargie in the middle over who does what to whom. But overall it's understood."

I think you're oversimplifying. For example, although Rhode Island and California are equal in the sense that they both contribute two senators, their representation otherwise reflects their population: in practice, California and RI are generally not equal. It is the many smaller states which offset the dominance of, say, CA and Texas, and it is this lack which unbalances the UK: England, after all, comprises almost 90% of the total UK population. For comparison, imagine a union of California and Oregon -- such a union would inevitably become dominated by CA.
238

John S,

29/03/2008 14:40:38
#262 - Although there are currently no procedures for a member state to leave the EU, and none has yet done so, there is no reason to believe that either Scotland or the rest of what is now the UK would be somehow expelled after independence.
Scotland and the remainder of the UK would be equally entitled, and obliged, to continue the existing full membership of the EU. This was conceded by Emile Noel, one of Europe's founding fathers and long-serving secretary-general of the European Commission, who said Scottish independence would create two states, which would have "equal status with each other and the other states".

This is backed up by Article 34 of the Vienna Convention on the Succession of States, which reads: "Any treaty in force at the date of succession of states in respect of the entire territory of the predecessor state continues in force in respect of each successor state so formed.

Independence would leave Scotland and something called the rest' in the same legal boat. If Scotland had to re-apply, so would the rest. I am puzzled at the suggestion that there would be a difference in the status of Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom in terms of community law if the Act of Union was dissolved."
Those were the words of the late Lord MacKenzie-Stuart, a former president of the European Court of Justice.
239

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 29/03/2008 14:42:13
257 Highland Mighty,29/03/2008 13:27:03

You are much better as AM2 in your present form all you have is dull grinding boring unionistical cringing rhetoric you are the brown paint on this forum, if we stay we just watch you dry and peel and flake and fall of, that is what happens when you do not have a good undercoat. And when your top coat is red,do you not know that every time you repost your mindless irrelevant unionist stats another unionist sychophant dies and is not replaced. What a pathetic way to spend your miserable spinelesss supine grovelling unionist life.
240

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 29/03/2008 14:46:00
265 Neil Waugh

Excellent post. If Unionists want to keep us altogether, then they need to adopt a federal model. That would be social justice. Other than that, crack on the way we're going and independence will come eventually.
241

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 29/03/2008 14:50:02
267
Such a union is dominated by England. In the USA, at least the Senate is not situated in California. Checks and balances have been thought about in the US. Nothing constitutional has been thought about in the UK.
242

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 29/03/2008 14:52:19
FAIRFAX THE FOLLOWING POST HAS YOU FILED AND STAMPED....which is what we are all talking about. Nialls BIG LIE and the SOUTH FEAST which I am in the middle of posting has holed you Redcoats under the water. Your inferiority complex is showing every time something like this comes up you pop up and try and present the Unionist spin and propaganda, or pointing out why Engerland is in your view superior to everyone. That is why you and yours are being rejected and are disliked. Good God you are even cuddling up to the Frogs now, how bad can it get for you?.................................






229 WeThePeople,Glenrothes 29/03/2008 12:16:34
#5 Truely English, you write:

'Good on you, Prime Minister Gordon Brown we are all British share and promote the same culture, lanmguage and way of life and should be very proud of what this country has achieved.'

Here is an extract from a book on Scottish history -

'Equally, the study of English history and the comparative neglect of Scottish history led to the acceptance of the false idea that the two countries share the same historic background. How far this can go was illustrated in 1965, when it was proposed that the seven hundredth anniversary of Simon de Montfort's parliament and the seven hundred and fiftieth anniversary of Magna Carta - both events which took place in what was at the time a foreign country - should be commemorated in Scotland...Scotland's past tends to be viewed through the eyes of English historians, who regard anything not English as quaint, backward or even downright barbarous.'

SOURCE: 'Scotland: The Shaping of a Nation', by Gordon Donaldson, p.117, ISBN 0 7153 6904 0.
243

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 29/03/2008 14:52:20
FAIRFAX THE FOLLOWING POST HAS YOU FILED AND STAMPED....which is what we are all talking about. Nialls BIG LIE and the SOUTH FEAST which I am in the middle of posting has holed you Redcoats under the water. Your inferiority complex is showing every time something like this comes up you pop up and try and present the Unionist spin and propaganda, or pointing out why Engerland is in your view superior to everyone. That is why you and yours are being rejected and are disliked. Good God you are even cuddling up to the Frogs now, how bad can it get for you?.................................






229 WeThePeople,Glenrothes 29/03/2008 12:16:34
#5 Truely English, you write:

'Good on you, Prime Minister Gordon Brown we are all British share and promote the same culture, lanmguage and way of life and should be very proud of what this country has achieved.'

Here is an extract from a book on Scottish history -

'Equally, the study of English history and the comparative neglect of Scottish history led to the acceptance of the false idea that the two countries share the same historic background. How far this can go was illustrated in 1965, when it was proposed that the seven hundredth anniversary of Simon de Montfort's parliament and the seven hundred and fiftieth anniversary of Magna Carta - both events which took place in what was at the time a foreign country - should be commemorated in Scotland...Scotland's past tends to be viewed through the eyes of English historians, who regard anything not English as quaint, backward or even downright barbarous.'

SOURCE: 'Scotland: The Shaping of a Nation', by Gordon Donaldson, p.117, ISBN 0 7153 6904 0.
244

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 29/03/2008 14:53:52
Sorry just cannot stop double tapping when pomposity is in my sights.
245

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 29/03/2008 14:54:56
Fairfax, don't get me wrong. No union is perfect. But at least even Montana has one rep and two senators.
And unelected judges sometimes have more power than the pols.
But the present system the Homeland Scots are subjected to is ludicrous. And Brown's treachery in Aviemore just made it worse.
I'm a Cnucklehead by the way. Not a Septic. Just for the record.
246

Fairfax,

29/03/2008 14:56:35
Andrew BOD (272): "Checks and balances have been thought about in the US."

I agree. However, the point of my example is that any union of two states, one of which is 10 times more populous than the latter, is certain to become dominated by the larger state, independent of any attempt to provide checks and balances. This disparity between England and Scotland implies two likely possibilities for the UK: dissolution or assimilation of the non-English components.
247

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 29/03/2008 14:56:36
AS I WAS SAYING:


Money plundered from the Lottery at the expense of the U.K..The Olympics are already at £5bn. And will plunder the Lottery again, starving Scottish athletes of funds for development, and with Scotland forced into a U.K. team many Scottish athletes will never see Olympic fame as they would otherwise in a Scottish team.

The Jubilee rail link at £3.5bn. 3.5 times the estimate for a Forth crossing.Scotland’s entire transport “allowance,” is £2.3bn. The new Euro Star London to Paris line has just cost us the thick end of £6bn. Great benefit to us here in Scotland.


The BBCs budget is £4bn. Half of the Scottish “allowance,” for health.
According to the BBCs annual report, 44,234 hours of TV were produced in London, compared to 2,495 in Scotland. They spent a tiny £106 million in Scotland out of a £505 million outside London. Leaving £3.5 billion INSIDE London, no wonder BBC Scotland is so utterly dire and pathetic.

Institutions classed as “National Resources,” do not count towards London Government spending.
The National Gallery gets £26 million.
National History Museum gets £45 million.
The British Museum gets £45 million.

The National Museum of Scotland is classed as “just for Scotland,” and gets £15 million per annum.

Most of the UKs citizens will never visit these “national assets,” in London, as it is to expensive to travel and stay there.The London Centric Scotlandphobic Union is a giant con and propaganda machine.

And then there is GERS which was compiled by Dr. Goudie was ordered by the Tory’s primarily to undermine the truth put forward by the SNP and many financial experts that Scotland was economically viable as an independent country.

Dr. Goudie has urged politicians to treat GERS with caution as the figures used are pure mythology and propaganda, and have easily been discredited by many experts and the SNP
248

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 29/03/2008 14:57:47
The top secret McCrone report said:
It is not possible to compare these figures with an accurate estimate of Scotland’s present balance of payments position. From the state of Scotland’s economy one would expect a balance of payments deficit on current account and a rough comparison of income and expenditure estimates for GDP suggest that this could be of the order of £300m. a year in 1970/71.

Plainly this is a most unreliable figure and it will vary from year to year, but it is probably sufficient to suggest the orders of magnitude. What is quite clear is that the balance of payments gain from North Sea oil would easily swamp the existing deficit whatever its size and transform Scotland into a country with a substantial and chronic surplus.

No wonder then that the Westminster/ UK/ English parliament, (same thing) lies and contorts itself so badly to keep Scotland where they want her. Who wants a partner who you have to subsidise?

Scotland needs to be kept frightened to make a move without the permission of London. Those days are past now, and in the past they will remain. The negative scare tactics have now blown back in the unionist party’s face. Scotland will be independent very soon.
249

Derick fae Yell,

Ye Olde Yoonyun Hoose yuk 29/03/2008 14:57:56
High and Michty
AM2

one and the same
250

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 29/03/2008 14:59:54
Micheal Lynch - Scotland; A new History - points out the the Scottish economy prior to the treaty was growing at around 2.5% per annum based on data from custom duties income.
Post Union there was a collapse of the Scottish economy as it was flooded with cheap imports from England causing major job losses in the burghs which 'free trade' with 'English colonies' did little to offset.
85% of of Scotland's trade prior to 1707 was with Scandanavia, Baltic, Hanseatic League and the Low Countries.
The Scottish economy did not recover to pre Treaty state until the late 1750's as its normal trading partners were blocked by England's European Wars in defence of Hanoverian possessions.
By 1713 the negative nature of the Union on the Scottish economy had been realised and was the main driver behind the Earl of Selkirk's attempt to have the treaty dissolved.
Given the natural resources in Scotland there is no evidence that Scotland gained any economic benefit from the Union during the Industrial revolution and given the many innovative engineering solutions invented by Scots - not the least vital among them being Nielson's Blast Furnace, Watt's Steam engine - the rest of the UK (aka England) would have been chasing an independent Scottish economy.
There is no historical evidence at any level that Scotland has ever had any economic benefit from the Union that it would not have accrued as an independent nation. According to Michael Lynch it would be a brave historian that would return to such 'Olympian pronouncements' on the economic benefit to Scotland of the Union Treaty.
Micheal Forsyth, an ex-Scottish (Tory) Secretary, in his book on the Union Treaty comes to the same conclusion and argues that the Union Treaty no longer has any great benefit to either party and should be revoked.
The McCrone report in the 1970's indicates that the Scottish economy would have had rapid and strong growth as an independent nation versus the reality of stagnation under the last 30 year
251

Fairfax,

29/03/2008 15:01:02
Neil Waugh (276): "I'm a Cnucklehead by the way. Not a Septic."

I wasn't implying you were from the US, merely giving an example. However, given your Canadian citizenship, would you agree that Scotland has become the Quebec of the UK?
252

walter,

29/03/2008 15:03:17
There is nothing to stop Scotland becoming independent?
We read that or words to that effect quite often on here.
What those who state it seem to forget, there is something to stop Scotland becoming independent, the people of Scotland.
253

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 29/03/2008 15:04:11
Meanwhile, GERS (Government Expenditure and Revenues Statistics) leaves North Sea oil revenues out from the Scottish account but Oil companies corporation tax is credited to London. And it puts the entire cost of Trident IN the Scottish account. The union is a giant con always has been always will be but not for much longer.
99% of Scots and 3 Englishmen in my local agree.
254

Fairfax,

29/03/2008 15:04:24
Hen Broon 5 (279): "No wonder then that the Westminster/ UK/ English parliament, (same thing) lies and contorts itself so badly to keep Scotland where they want her. Who wants a partner who you have to subsidise?"

Who indeed? England expects every Scot to do their duty: vote SNP! Even if you're bored by the otiose logorrhoea of Hen Broon 5, rest assured that there are excellent arguments for Scottish independence.
255

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 29/03/2008 15:09:17



#284 Excellent article. I just cut n pasted a wee bit as some of the unionist cringers on here are to thick to get to the article.





It isn't very British, either, to tell people how they must govern their consciences - as Mr Brown was trying to do on embryo experimentation, until even some of his supine ministers let him know that they wouldn't feel happy about the Frankenstein-style creation of half-men, half-animals.



Also, how he can have the front to bang on about a British identity when, for the past 11 years, he has been a senior figure in a government that has presided over uncontrolled immigration - and uncontrolled immigration that is having the most appalling social consequences, and about which, again, the fair-minded British people were never consulted? The hypocrisy of this position is so epic that I am amazed that, under the weight of it, Mr Brown can stand upright.

256

Neil Waugh,

OLd Strathcona 29/03/2008 15:09:36
More like the Alberta of Canada. We subsidize the Quebec fantasy to the tune of $7 billion a year.
At any given time there a 25% separatist sentiment in Alberta.
But there's one big difference between Scotland and Alberta. We have provincial constitutional control over natural resources. Which translates into $10 billion in oil and gas royalties a year. (Don't hold me to that number, it could be more.)
The mind boggles what Hollyrood could do with cash flow like that.
If it wasn't for Brown's treachery.

257

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

London 29/03/2008 15:12:41
After reading the postings I have the following questions:

- Why Scots in numbers travel to London each month looking for jobs?
- Why there are so many scots in the education and finance sectors in London?
- Why when it comes to putiing cross on ballot papers Scots shy away giving the nationalists a thumping majority?
258

rona,

29/03/2008 15:13:50
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/latestnews/Brown-to-Scotland-Think-big.3927157.jp
259

rona,

29/03/2008 15:14:29
ignore above.

tinyurl.com/23unqb
260

rona,

29/03/2008 15:15:54
290

'cos we're feart - simple.
261

Geoff H,

29/03/2008 15:15:55
281

The immediate effect of the treaty was to depress Scottish trade for decades. In a letter dated 14th April 1760 Adam Smith explained why:

'The immediate effect of it was to hurt the interest of every single order of men in the country. Even the merchants seemed to suffer at first. The trade to the Plantations was, indeed, opened to them. But that was a trade which they knew nothing about; the trade tehy were acquainted with, that to France, Holland and the Baltic, was laid under new embarrassments which almost totally annihilated the two first and most important branches of it. No wonder if at that time all orders of men conspired in cursing a measure so hurtful to their immediate interests.'


As Walter Scott said, Scotland was left 'to find her silent way to wealth and prosperity.'

262

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 29/03/2008 15:17:11
#286 FAIRFAX THE SLEEKIT REDCOAT. There you go again with your pomposity, do you really imagine that it wins you any fans. "Oh the words he uses," if you are bored just sod of to the Telegraph to the rest of the Englanders, I for one will not mourn your passing.

This is a public forum and I reserve the right to respond to the bombastic unionist lies and propaganda that passes for comment on here, if it gets up your snooty English proboscis then super.

Have the last word now as I am of to have a good time.





Missing you already, NOT.

PIP PIP.



ALBA GU BREATH.

263

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 29/03/2008 15:17:14
#286 FAIRFAX THE SLEEKIT REDCOAT. There you go again with your pomposity, do you really imagine that it wins you any fans. "Oh the words he uses," if you are bored just sod of to the Telegraph to the rest of the Englanders, I for one will not mourn your passing.

This is a public forum and I reserve the right to respond to the bombastic unionist lies and propaganda that passes for comment on here, if it gets up your snooty English proboscis then super.

Have the last word now as I am of to have a good time.





Missing you already, NOT.

PIP PIP.



ALBA GU BREATH.

264

Fairfax,

29/03/2008 15:17:39
Neil Waugh (288): "The mind boggles what Hollyrood could do with cash flow like that."

It does, but for a different reason: Scotland has been voting for broadly socialist parties (Labour, then SNP) for decades, the result being a bloated public sector and a large welfare state. The money required for this roughly balances the total UK income from oil. Therefore I suspect that Scottish independence would see little change: socialist fantasy must end for Scotland to emulate the wealthier economies of Eire or Southern England.
265

Fairfax,

29/03/2008 15:35:39
Hen Broon 5 (296): "This is a public forum and I reserve the right to respond to the bombastic unionist lies and propaganda that passes for comment on here, if it gets up your snooty English proboscis then super."

Ahh... I almost feel guilty. However, you will persuade more Scots of the benefits of independence if you learn brevity, unless your aim is to provide equal nationalist volumes of bombastic drivel.
266

Derick fae Yell,

The Hoose 29/03/2008 15:35:43
Just watching Bendy. Busily claiming credit for smoking ban (er. Mr Maxwell??). Horrid thought: it has reproduced - whit laek is da baby Bendies. eeeeee!
267

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

LONDON 29/03/2008 15:46:43
I do not think that the SNP will get sufficient majority to force a referendum for independence as long as the Scottish constituencies send Labour MPs in numbers to Westminster. There seems to be some kind of link at least in the voters psyche in Scotland between the number of Labour Westminster MPs and Labour MSPs they elect. If the former number falls, the
decimation of Labour MSPs would probably follow. The explanation for this is perhaps the Scottish voters are
perhaps treading the independence issue very carefully (hence the percentage who want independence is hovering at best around 30-40%) and I suspect the Calman review would put a break on SNP's advancement in Scotland.
268

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 29/03/2008 16:01:11
I starting to wonder what century Gordon Brown lives because he doen't seem to be aware that it is possible to get around with mi nimium fuss in Europe these days-.Also small countries seem to be among the wealthier ones.
269

Scheme,

29/03/2008 16:09:37
Wonder if Broon also thinks that Tibet should "think big" and remain part of China?
270

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 16:21:06
285. And HEN BROON comes up with a brand new astonishingly ridiculous nat claim:

"Scotland pays for Trident!"

Yes indeed everyone. The nats will now have everyone believe that Scotland pays for the UK's nuclear deterrent. No, it apparently does NOT come from the UK Defence budget but solely and purely from we the Scottish taxpayer.

The desperation of the nats and their failing campaign to get us all to hate the UK is clear as day now.

Naturally, we eagerly await the PROOF of this claim.

If it's the nats' primary research tool that is 'The Great Deception' then this is yet another example of how so very badly flawed that nat website is.
This website believes that Scotland should pay only 3.5% of the UK defence budget.....Why, when we are 8.5% of the population? Sadly, it doesn't say!
271

Truely English,

29/03/2008 16:22:03
Dave frm Barra.

If you are English is it not time you came back to England and left both the lunatic religious practices and stupid language, whatever it is called behind. There must be many places in England who will want one of their sons to come back home.
272

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

London 29/03/2008 16:30:43
Brown is not going get convinced about independence as long as he is the Prime Minister. First, the voters in Scotland have to send far less Labour MPs to Westminster to remove him from power in the next general election. Next, they should vote a very LibDen MPs, a few Tory MPs and substantial number of SNP Westminster MPs. When this happens Cameron will form the next government at Westminster as Labour and Libdems lose out. If voters in Scotland see a Tory government at Westminster, there is greater chance of them voting for SNP MEPs in large numbers when the Holyrood election comes. Voters in Scotalnd tend to left of the centre, and SNP gains in this sutation.

The Scots in Scotland hence should pray for Cameron to be the next PM at Westminster if they want independence. All else is empty rhetoric.
273

Calum Crubag,

29/03/2008 16:35:29
Is not Gordon Brown a British Nationalist? He's talking of inter-dependence while trying to kick out asylum seekers and introduce ID cards. Very internationalist and progressive. Meanwhile, Labour-led UK is spending more and more on war whilst saying we NEED more private interference in the NHS and education. Basically, while Brit Nat Labour spends more than any other UK govt on killing foreigners, we are seeing our schools and hospitals sold to private companies.

The UK and it's shameful record of war, emprire and corruption is well past it's sell-by date. If independence in good enough for Eire, then it is for us. I'd love to see Brown and Highland Mighty give this same speech in Dublin.
274

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 16:35:37
307. The Conservatives thought Labour were dead after the 1992 election defeat. They won next time round.

Labour thought the Conservatives were dead after the last election. They look likely to win next time.

For the SNP to think Labour are dead really is a refusal to learn from history.
275

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 16:37:58
308. Still waiting for you to apologise for having the front to accuse me (or indeed anyone for that matter) of making up stats.
276

Stefania Alvarez,

29/03/2008 16:38:02
I suppose you have to admire the persistence of these dead-beat SNP folks who continue to naively dream of
... free blue face paint
... and a new plastic Claymore for all !!!

Oh and a signed photie of Mel Gibson too !!!


Sad and pathetic bunch of dreamers ehhh??


Scottish natioanlism like all other forms of nationalism ids for the lame and narrow minded who do not have any desire to remove their heads from the sand ... and see the bigger picture.

Still I suppose these strands would be pretty dull if we did not have these SNP drongos here
... with their lies; deceits; half-truths; and fantasies
... to entertain us all huh???
277

Senga Jean,

29/03/2008 16:57:23
#311 I thoroughly disagree with your disagreeable rant.The SNP are both credible and creditable and your attempt to label them is absurd. I thought Braveheart was a nonsense film but I have no control over Hollywood but I do have a vote for Holyrood which I doubt you have.
278

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 29/03/2008 17:06:35
I do wonder what planet Gordon Brown lives in.Is he living in the past or does he think that people are stupid.Thise of us who travel and have even lived abroad know about the ease of travel among EU countries.It is also clear that small countries are wealthy.Don't know what is meant by this so called influence,but a lot of these countries have influence beyond that of Scotland,such as taking the presidency of the EU and so on.
279

rona,

29/03/2008 17:06:54
amparo zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
280

Truely English,

29/03/2008 17:08:34
Dave from Barra.

What part of England do you come from?
281

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 29/03/2008 17:09:39
#311
Free blue face paint, eh. By chance do you have the website where I can get some? I've already got the pretendy claymore. And send them homeward tae think again.
282

Conway,

29/03/2008 17:20:28
From todays BBC website I read this article about Wales what Plaid want for Walse sounds very similar to what the SNP want for Scotland.

A leading Plaid Cymru figure has stressed her commitment to independence at the party's spring conference.
Rural Affairs Minister Elin Jones said a European Council of Ministers meeting confirmed her view that small nations can have a role on the European stage.
She had sat behind her UK counterpart and those from Latvia and Malta.
But neither she nor her Scottish counterpart were allowed to talk as the Common Agricultural Policy was discussed in Brussels.
Ms Jones became one of Plaid's first ministers when her party went into coalition with Labour in the Welsh Assembly Government last year.
It also meant she became the first Plaid minister to attend a ministerial meeting in continental Europe, and she said it was highly important that Wales had a voice at such meetings.
"Ten years ago of course Wales wasn't there at all - nor were Latvia or Malta for that matter," she told delegates in Newport.
"But now at least Wales is in the room, but the rightful place for Wales is at the table in our own right, with our agriculture minister sitting between the agriculture ministers of Latvia and England, or Malta and England", she said.
She told the conference she had always been "totally confident" that Wales would be as able as any other country to govern and represent itself.
"Though the purpose of my visit to the European Council of Ministers was not to confirm my faith in independence - as a member of Plaid Cymru, that was the result."
As part of the deal which led to the coalition, Plaid wants a referendum on turning the Welsh assembly into a parliament by 2011.
However, many within Plaid will welcome this reinforcement by one of its government ministers that independence is the party's ultimate aim.
283

Enigma,

29/03/2008 17:59:36
My my, the usual confused and terminally bigoted suspects, some maintaining that the English will not let Scotland gain independence, others claiming the English don`t give a monkey`s about Scotland. Which is it guys? The only thing stopping Scottish independence is Scottish voters
284

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 29/03/2008 18:00:40
#311

Aren't these anagram generators great fun?

Stefania Alvarez = Ava ze anal fister


285

Queen D,

Glasgow 29/03/2008 18:12:30
Read Polly T innthe Telegraph to discover what London Labour is up to regards voting systems.
And read the comments!
286

Queen D,

Glasgow 29/03/2008 18:13:02
Sorry, bit of a stammer there!
287

 Ayrshire Scot™,

29/03/2008 18:21:07
322. Those anagram generators are not foolproof. Clealry "fistee" is more aposite.

288

Stefania Alvarez,

29/03/2008 18:26:38
Ahh the SNP drongos are easily rattled ehh??

Why don't ye all march off tae some wee rock and argue amongst yourselves ... can I suggest somewhere harmless like Tristan da Cunha ...

Let's face it Scotland doesn't need you lot anyway
289

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 29/03/2008 18:28:38
Tha meas beag agam (Brown) air. Gordon Brown’s appeal to Scots to support the Union illustrates the gulf between himself and the Scottish people. Since 1900 the population of Scotland has dropped from 6 to 5 million. Over the last 25 years Scots have seen one industry after another close. The average Scot still earns much less than the average Englishman. Yet the McCrone Report of April 1975 shows that during much of this time an independent Scotland would have had an annual current account surplus of £500-1500 million, much of which could and would have been used to boost education and high technology industries. Westminster deliberately obscured the revenue that the Union received from Scottish oil, an act that teeters on the brink of criminality.

Why is it that after 30 years of North Sea Oil, Scotland is desperate for money to finance decent housing, modern schools, good mental homes, roads, detention centres and police facilities? How is it that 20% of Scottish children still live in dire circumstances, while a huge part of our land is owned by a handful of wealthy ex-patriots? Unable to face the sad truth about his own high school, let alone the economic woes of Scotland, Gordon Brown turned his back on his home turf and tried to dupe us into believing that international grandstanding is of greater importance than our own well-being.

The truth is that we have no international presence while within the Union; we are merely England’s little Scottish terrier, dragged along seedy streets to visit one dingy dive after another, peddling weapons to gangsters while ignoring horrific screams emanating from the basements. And England itself, a morally, physically, and culturally feeble wretch, nods her head in reflex agreement each time her AmerUSAn big brother slams into innocent bystanders with a baseball bat.

The AmerUSAns are an exact reflection of the Taliban: high on principles if not heroin, but incredibly naïve and dogmatic. No other country could hav
290

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 29/03/2008 18:31:00
#325 Yes, I must write to the be-ponytailed creator of unionist-knob-anagrams-r-us.com* straight away.


* Hee hee it was all my own work, but I didn't wish to appear like someone that sees the name Stefania Alvarez and instantly thinks of an anal fister.
291

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 29/03/2008 18:32:04
Part 2: The AmerUSAns are an exact reflection of the Taliban: high on principles if not heroin, but incredibly naïve and dogmatic. No other country could have bragged grotesquely about butchering thousands of young Iraqi conscripts retreating from Kuwait, asked the returning Iraqi soldiers to rebel against Saddam, stood back while Saddam slaughtered them, and then killed their children with sanctions devised by cretins. No other country except the UK. I am tired of disgusting double standards, whether it be in regard to Algeria, China, Chechnya, the Sudan, Palestine/Israel or any other country. We must be free to do what is good and right, and that means quitting the UK/USA alliance, and thus the Union.

It is better to be a small country with a clean conscience and almost no power than to live in moral filth. We can still aid international peace and relief efforts, but on our own terms.
292

,

29/03/2008 18:33:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
293

 Ayrshire Scot™,

29/03/2008 18:37:12
326. What sort of mongo ends a sentence with eh??? Clearly he takes his dialogue from cheap fist-ing videos.
294

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 29/03/2008 18:37:48
#331 Dear chap, I bow to your superior knowledge as regards fister versus fistee. I suspect our Hispanic chum is more than likely a recipient rather than a giver. A quick glance at his typing skills and one suspects his wankpaddles are the size of a small donkeys head.

295

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 29/03/2008 18:43:58
Stefania

Last week you were persuaded to sign up for independence. Why have you changed your spots so quickly?
296

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

LONDON 29/03/2008 18:45:05
I am puzzled by the attitude of our friends North of the Border. Instead of all these hot air about nationalism, English arrogance etc.. etc.. give Alex Salmond 60% of Holyrood MSPs, and he will do the rest. When the chips are down like last year Holyrood election, do not in the privacy of voting booth put cross against Labour and LibDem candidates. It is that simple!!!

297

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 29/03/2008 18:51:16
#335 Jack, are your using alta vista?
298

 Ayrshire Scot™,

29/03/2008 18:51:40
333. I am no expert, but anyone can see the poor typing, anally ripped, pained and back-door incontinent typing of Stefania for what it is.
299

 Ayrshire Scot™,

29/03/2008 18:55:28
335. good point. (as Stefania Alvarez said to a particularly spindly armed old man)



300

rona,

29/03/2008 18:56:03
stefania = amparo the drone
301

,

29/03/2008 18:56:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
302

rona,

29/03/2008 18:56:51
amparo who bores the pants off us with "Uncle Tom's Cabin" references.
303

rona,

29/03/2008 18:57:41
probably also maria la guapa and other sundry (but not sultry) names. In other words a boring fuckwit.
304

 Ayrshire Scot™,

29/03/2008 18:57:53
337, hey hoos poos, how was the black swan randomness treastise?

(black swan to Stefania Alvarez is just a white swan to the rest of us, but one doped on roophie's and put to a very nasty, neck related, purpose)

305

rona,

29/03/2008 18:58:31
Stefania

You are boring us. Go away. Begone. ¡Fuera!
306

rona,

29/03/2008 18:59:34
Another Saturday night and she ain't got nobody....
307

rona,

29/03/2008 19:00:50
or she's back frae Aviemore without a lumber. It'll be the legs like hairy tights that's the killer.

Shave them ya mink.
308

Enigma,

29/03/2008 19:01:45
335

Quite so. Should Scotland vote for independence the world will not come to an end, and I`ll bet the sullen anglophobic whingers will not change their tune either.
309

 Ayrshire Scot™,

29/03/2008 19:02:43
341. Clearly this poster's brain has been impacted by particularly pneumatic, hard core fist-ing action.

The reference to "automatically sucked out" speaks volumes about Stefrania's failed career in gay porn as a fluffer.

310

Danishscot,

Pocatello 29/03/2008 19:04:45
The reason for the SNP's trouncing of Labour in the election and its continuing efforts for independence is that, for decades, Scotland in the Union has constantly been treated like the illegitimate child at the family reunion. Enough!
311

 Ayrshire Scot™,

29/03/2008 19:06:45
341. The reference to "sheep" in this posters contributions speaks of a deep longing to move beyond his current amorous existence which is entirely about being fist-ed by tattooed pygmies, and to move into a more self-confident expression of being wolf-bagged by poodles.

312

Itchy,

29/03/2008 19:11:02
#22 "I am 100% Scots, and now live in the USA. If Salmond and his ilk ever get their way, I will never be living there again, as it will be a Socialist state dependent on others far more than we were ever dependent on the English. We deserve better more progressive leadership"

As opposed to Labour under Gordon Brown?

Brown is and always has been a Socialist and Labour is a thoroughgoing nanny-statist party
313

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 29/03/2008 19:12:13
#349 I fear you're correct in your assumptions old bean, Stefania comes across as the sort who has regularly sucked the acrid manjizz off many a street mendicants dimpled nutbag, just to have them praise the Union in return. Most distasteful.

I note He/she is also getting a tad upset at our mild joshing.
314

RightTurn,

29/03/2008 19:13:32
"Whispered claims of "he's doing a Cameron" were heard around the hall as Mr Brown began his speech not from the lectern, but in front of those sitting on the stage as he spoke."

Nick Clegg did the same thing to. However, both Cameron and Clegg delivered their speeches with more confidence and style than boring Mr Broon.
315

Stefania Alvarez,

29/03/2008 19:14:00
All this nasty spouting just proves my point ... the SNP are a bunch of nasty mud-slingers and bigots

... their raison d'etre is to be petty; narrow-minded and above all lacking any actual vision

... apart from their own unwillingness to see past their own noses.
316

brownlie,

glasgow 29/03/2008 19:14:55
306 Truely English.

Considering that the main religion on Barra is Catholism you can hardly describe it as a lunatic religion.

I take it you regard Gaelic as a stupid language. As a monoglot you appear to be unaware that your English language is the most bastardised language around in that it is borrowed from Latin, French and many other languages including Gaelic.
Chan'eil thu glic, amadain!
317

Truely English,

29/03/2008 19:18:14
327
Since I am able to read what you write about England being culturally feeble. Could it be that you are part of that same English language and culture which you now think is so feeble and in it right up to your neck.

Please explain how it is so feeble and how your own presumed cultural experience is so strong.
318

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/03/2008 19:18:48
Previous comments on the legalities of the Iraq "war" have given me cause for thought.

Perhaps I am wrong but as I understand it every country within the UN has signed up not to invade another country unless it was under imminent threat from the other country. The UN would then sanction the invasion of the aggressor, making the invasion legal.

The weapons of mass destruction scenario was the fabrication of imminent threat which the UN refused to believe until proof was found.

The US (and poodle Blair) just invaded. The invasion was illegal and yet the UN gave the sanction occupy the country after the invasion.

Says a lot for the UN. Anyway, the legalities would probably have been brought to light had Saddam captured Bush and Blair and put them on trial at the Hague. It would have to have been established that the invasion of Iraq by the US and the UK was illegal according to UN resolutions.

Apart from that Broon doesn't half talk a load of excretum tauri.

319

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 29/03/2008 19:20:37
#355

"... their raison d'etre is to be petty; narrow-minded and above all lacking any actual vision "

I have this torrid vision of Ava ze anal fister chained to the wall of some leather dungeon, half naked and bleeding from his flapping Gary as two NF bootboys work him over for minimum wage.

No Norman Rockwell images for this feller.
320

Truely English,

29/03/2008 19:23:21
356
Dave from Barra gave no indication that he was anthing other than English in what he wrote yesterday.

As regards to Gaelic no-one in Scotland uses it as they all speak English so how can it be anything other than worthless clap trap as Dave from Barra intimated.
321

 Ayrshire Scot™,

29/03/2008 19:24:49
357. Yes, I saw that written in block type (as if stencilled) in the toilets of the Polo Lounge, but it had a mobile number and a diameter limitation for limb insertion attached. with an hourly rate

Minging picture with it.

322

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

LONDON 29/03/2008 19:25:00
#336 and #337

I am afraid there is such a low percentage of the 'converts'! I would not call the rest unionists for it gives them some credibility, rather the 'chickened out mob'who are afraid to go it alone. It took more than 8 years since devolution for the SNP to form a minority government and Alex Salmond is always looking at the rug on which he is standing, and wondering when it will be pulled! In this situation, you need to wait and see whether Cameron will form the next government at Westminster. I am predicting that
Calman review would recommend something, and that would be enough in the next Holyrood election to send SNP packing.
323

brownlie,

glasgow 29/03/2008 19:29:01
361 Truly English (note the spelling)

I will leave you to your blissful ignorance.
324

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 29/03/2008 19:29:18
Arf, has anyone noticed the google ad at the bottom of the page?

---------------------------------------------------------
Gutless Gordon Brown?
Is He Up To The Job Of PM? Have Your Say At Friction.tv
www.Friction.tv
----------------------------------------------------------

HA HA HA
325

Stefania Alvarez,

29/03/2008 19:33:15
Tristan da Cunha is probably too big for you bigots ... try Rockall instead !!!
326

 Ayrshire Scot™,

29/03/2008 19:35:42
366. He says that like a man who has squatted on rocky outcroppings,,, and found Rockall suitable in girth

327

Truely English,

29/03/2008 19:40:05
364
Whether or not I take time and care to spell accurately
is immaterial. What is much more important is to find out how the English language is so culturally feeble in England as opposed to Scotland.

I understand that all the various party leaders only ever use Standard English and as Dave from Barra made clear yesterday both the religion in the area and the Gaelic language presumably of the area was better dead than alive.

Could this come from any Scottish person I think not.
328

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/03/2008 19:40:27
358, Truely (what language is that?) English.

That which you write may be known by you as English but it is actually British.
329

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 29/03/2008 19:43:09
#366

The rudimentary aspects of the comeback when one has been shamelessly outwitted are fairly straightforward. Pause, reflect, then come up with a zinger that informs your opponent to indulge in something that belittles their very being.

Requesting that they move to a small rocky outcrop in the northern Atlantic doesn't really cut it, especially when accompanied by a surfeit of exclamation marks(!!!!) see what I mean?

I suggest you try and grind up a couple of valium, a few Es, a tab of acid, a scoop of industrial strength, trade certified, hardcore-queers only ketamine, pop that in the blender, not forgetting to add a dollop of tamazepam and drink straight with a shot of neat vodka. You'll feel better for it and the world will appear to be more sympathetic to you and your ilk. Pip and indeed pip.
330

Truely English,

29/03/2008 19:47:02
369
I would much prefer to see the English language called the British as everyone in Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland now can speak English. We are now British in ways and sentiment.
331

 Ayrshire Scot™,

29/03/2008 19:51:35
371. And what about Dennistoun?
332

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/03/2008 19:53:18
371. Should it not be that everyone in England speaks British as well as the people in Scotland, Wales and N Ireland?
333

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 29/03/2008 19:55:09
371

Why not call the language Australian, American, Canadian or Irish?

What a stupid comment to make.
334

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 29/03/2008 19:57:25
374 AM

Not for the status quo though laddie. The natives are restless.
335

Stefania Alvarez,

29/03/2008 19:57:52
OK ... how about you go populate both places ??

Tristan da Cunha and Rockall ...
... when are the next ferries ??

You could all probably get on the same boat huh???
336

 Ayrshire Scot™,

29/03/2008 19:58:05
374. Said Highland Mighty/ English Voice

337

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 29/03/2008 19:58:42
#374 Nice to see you so relaxed old chum. Pray do tell, can you see Wendy Alexander as a future FM with the same clarity of Gordon Brown?
338

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 29/03/2008 20:00:25
#371 Put a sock in your gob you idiot! The people in the north east of Ireland are IRISH not British, and no ammount of interference in the affairs of the Irish people will ever change that. 88% of the people on the island of Ireland want no English rule in Ireland. Is that clear enough for you?
339

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 29/03/2008 20:01:28
#377 Poor Ava ze anal fister, still not getting it.

Might I suggest you go along to one of the many adult support groups in your neck of the woods and enrol in a Fundamental Internet Support Team, and ask about their advanced witty ripostes seminar? Pip pip.
340

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 29/03/2008 20:01:52
377 Steffi

Rockall will soon be negotiated away by Gogs to the Scandinavians or Irish. It is Scottish after all. So you can count that out
341

 Ayrshire Scot™,

29/03/2008 20:01:56
377. Stefania typed with one hand, while dabbing at the keyboard with the other and a kleenex

342

Derick fae Yell,

29/03/2008 20:04:32
374 AM2 "support for independence is static, or possibly even slightly down on the year."

patience, sweetie.
this is a longer game than either of us will play.

a year - hah! ask in 20 or 30 years. Nothing abides but change. You fight the battle of the 20th century, from a 17th century perspective. Us nats are interested in the future, not your bizarre Brit past.

cheers anyway

D
343

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/03/2008 20:04:45
Now, about the Bank of Britain.

What was that Broon was saying about narrow minded nationalism?
344

Nikostratos,

29/03/2008 20:05:24
#370 OscarMacApfel,


Works for me every time.......Brilliant concoction now if only the snp put that in it's manifesto

#374 AM2

yes even the snp are pushing for Devolution now rather than just a straightforward Independence.
345

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/03/2008 20:06:12
AMtwa? Are you beginning to get my drift about the English ego yet?
346

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/03/2008 20:10:03
386, Niko. You must have been taking that prescription if you think the SNP is doing anything other than trying to run the country with the gradualist approach to independence.
347

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 29/03/2008 20:12:04
#386 Nikos didn't have you down as a consumer of deadly cocktails. I fear that Mr McAskill may tax my concoction out with most pockets. Yet, something tells me Stefania would be an all too willing consumer.
348

James Moore,

29/03/2008 20:14:30
Scotland, home of the deep fried mars bar! Says it all!

Here a few other issues etc Scotland can be proud about!

1. Scotland's chip shop culture!

2. Scotland's smoking culture!

3. Scotland's drinking culture!

4. Scotland's racist culture as seen on these threads! Seen story involving the black teenager being racially abused playing football on a sunday in Fife! By opposition players, parents and general public! DISGRACE!

5. Scotland's animal cruelty culture!

6. Scotland's religious bigotry! West coast of Scotland! Rangers, Celtic!

Enough said, but i suppose we can all blame it on english as the moronic SNP brigade will say!

By the way, i am Scot!
349

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 29/03/2008 20:17:32
386

You're right Jock but it may take a bit longer than a couple of years. I suspect Cameron will have a say in this after the next Westminster election, as his party will force constitutional changes to appease a large part of the Tory vote. Key to moving independence to the top of the agenda will be to get as many SNP seats at Westminster as possible.
350

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 29/03/2008 20:18:12
#390 Ha ha ha ha ha ha muppet. Bring us some proper wit, none of this sideshow cack. How about expressing your own individual view on Scotland based on your own experience as Scot?
351

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 29/03/2008 20:19:37
390

A reluctant Scot by the sound of it.
352

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 29/03/2008 20:20:20
#393 No I am Scot
353

Nikostratos,

29/03/2008 20:21:24
I reckon Wendy (aka as 10)was on about you lot (the usual subjects)

http://a343.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/18/m_2438ea9453ed26743e2cfffdc64824ee.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7319850.stm

She dismissed its "national conversation" on Scotland's constitutional future as "an invitation for every flag-burning blogger to rant and rave".


#389 Oscar

Reminds me off my days as a heroin addict.....

#388 Jock

Seeing as Alex said this is a once in 25 years opportunity how more gradual do you get ?
354

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/03/2008 20:21:34
391, Andrew. As long as it happens in my lifetime.
355

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 29/03/2008 20:22:50
#395 it's the only diet that works Nikos.
356

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 29/03/2008 20:23:19
#390

You can't be much of a Scot if you have an issue with fish and chips? Or is it the haggis that troubles you?
Ever been to the Grantown Legion on country and western night. Priceless.
And you have concerns about Scotish culture? It's in good hands, pal.
What smoking culture are you steaming about anyway? The Players or the Wackie?
357

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

LONDON 29/03/2008 20:23:29
#388 "..the gradualist approach to independence".

Sounds like Donald Rumsfeld vocabulary! Alex Salmond has no other option by to go 'gradual' which means not in his life time! He is up against Calman Review and given Calman's reputation, he cnnot rubbish its recommendations which are going to be well short of
what SNP wants, but enough to satisfy the majority of Scots to move away from Salmond!
358

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/03/2008 20:23:54
395, Niko. The refendum hasn't happened yet. The unionists are scared of it.
359

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/03/2008 20:27:27
399, Jack and the Bean Stalk. The Calman revue will have no bearing whatsoever on the people of Scotland. It is a sop and we all know it is.
360

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 29/03/2008 20:31:07
Nikos, Broons troops.

http://tinyurl.com/2ma69e


Must say I'm disappointed that AM2 hasn't deigned to tell me whether he agrees with G Broon that the WENDY will be the next FM of Scotlandia...I'll just presume he doesn't. Much more polite that way.
361

Nikostratos,

29/03/2008 20:37:31
#400 Jock

"Anything worth having is worth cheating for."
(My Little Chickadee)W.C. Fields



Personally speaking why having got this far. Do the snp want to dilute their message by seeming to accept Devolution as a legitimate option to full Independence.

Pro-union and pro- Independence at least has clear Gaelic
water between them whatever the position you believe in.
362

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

LONDON 29/03/2008 20:40:39
#402. I would not dismiss it! I know quite a few Scots not necessarily with the 'unionist bent of mind' and I very much doubt whether people of Scotland would vote for a seismic change. There is no evidence for it in the polls. Salmond's referendum has to be passed by the Holyrood before presenting to the people, and the Holyrood arithmetic says it would not happen. the SNP would be defeated and Labour and LibDem then could very well form a government for three years. If that happens SNP a minority party cannot complain as the Labour and LibDem government would be stable and will have a majority. Three years down the road, people wil have no appetite to give SNP another chance.
363

 Ayrshire Scot™,

29/03/2008 20:41:53
405. I can only say, Jordan pics, too much
364

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 29/03/2008 20:42:10
AM2 / Highland Mighty / English Voice

If you're still around, have a look at this link which shows which party's support is truly dwindling. (As reported by a Unionist establishment.)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7320255.stm
365

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/03/2008 20:42:11
407, Niko. I see it as because, having achieved their position of limited power, they have to prove themselves at the same time as proving to the nation that the nation is a can do entity.

After all the years of negativity this will take some time.
366

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 29/03/2008 20:44:36
Hoos poos Spooky, sorry to read that some braindead muppet threw a racial epithet at you, hope the crowd sorted the cnutt* out.

Re Independence, a true story. At a wedding two weeks ago I met the worlds oldest 'William Wallace', aged 97 resplendent in kilt, Glengarry and a fabby velvet jacket we got talking, his name came up and I said something along the lines of well I hope to see Scotland independent in my lifetime. The old sod looked at me and said, "Yes, me too." Brilliant.



*Crivvens I see the prudebot now recognises cnutt!

367

European Scot,

29/03/2008 20:45:29
Jack and the Bean Stalk

A Unionist supporting professor makes recommendations, and it will send Alex and the SNP packing.
That sounds quite fantastic.
Will Peter Pan be coming to the aid of Wendy ?
368

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 29/03/2008 20:45:56
#406 Thanks for reply, good answer.

Can I tempt you to suggest who you think might replace Salmond as FM, if not the WENDY?
369

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/03/2008 20:46:22
408, Jack, as you wish. Shall we agree to differ?
370

Media 1,

cape town 29/03/2008 20:53:03
Scotland is part of the union as we speak! Let us rejoice at that fact and hope against hope that the FREEDOM FIGHTER Salmond is not allowed to take Scotland down the slippery slope that most freedom movements take the people.
371

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

LONDON 29/03/2008 20:54:09
#414
Drop the illusion and be realistic. you are hoping Salmond getting Holyrood majority in the next election. What about the next three years? Calman report is out within a year. The Labour and Libdem's combined majority in the Holyrood lasts for another 3 years. How would Salmond get to pass the referendum in the Holyrood? People then look at Calman recommendation and may not go for a seismic change.
372

Nikostratos,

29/03/2008 20:55:31
#403


Broons troops.

http://eu.inmagine.com/img/digitalvision/dv513/dv513044.jpg
373

,

29/03/2008 20:55:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
374

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/03/2008 20:57:05
Just when everything was getting handshakingly along, along comes the Media plant to try and stir things up.

How are the Colonies in Stockbridge Media1, Rangers and Hearts supporter, you utter troll?
375

Derick fae Yell,

The Hoose 29/03/2008 21:00:30
404 AM et al
Who was party leader in 1992 anyway? Nae idea, boy. No terrible carein eydir. John Bliar. Tony Major? whitever.

My preference wid be fur national independence, sans violence, dirty tricks an aa dat pysh. 30 years time an da oil will be gaen doon da bog, wastit by dee an dine. Fair enoch - less chance o trouble: we can wait.

376

Media 1,

cape town 29/03/2008 21:01:09
Spook #422

Me too, sadly though they are all dying of aids and starving to death. Crime is ravaging their communities, their local municipalities are raping them of food and services and the economy is in free fall.
It reallys is a shame, but what can you do, its Africa.
I am off to Australia soon, as are most of us.
377

Media 1,

cape town 29/03/2008 21:05:00
Jack

I am only back is Edinburgh around June. But sadly only for 3 weeks and then down to London for a month, then Aberdeen for the rest of the stay.
I am hoping to catch a few Hearts games, and of course try my best to go and see Inverness.
Thankfully, I will be returing to my beloved Union Scotland! But then leaving again before the weather gets sh!te again.
378

rona,

29/03/2008 21:07:23
AM2

"Sorry, Oscar... other things to do this evening. No, I doubt it very much."

Collects another bunch of labour pamphlets and begins job as envelope stuffer....
379

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/03/2008 21:09:17
Aye right, Media1, aye right. I believe everything you lie.
380

rona,

29/03/2008 21:09:43
419 Media degree (bog roll..please take one)

You give ti­ts a bad name.
381

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/03/2008 21:14:35
431, Spook. He he, I remember that one. He claims to be resident in Stockbridge (from time to time) but doesn't know where the colonies are. Wheesht, don't let on.
382

rona,

29/03/2008 21:14:55
Stefania. Insomnia's answer to Horlicks.

(She used to be Steven you know - before the botched operation. It's called Clitadictome)
383

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 29/03/2008 21:15:28
Homeland Scots may not be as glued to the telly as we are this side of the ditch.
But Scotland's glorious game and our one and only Olympic sport (caber isn't in yet, is it?) is in grave danger - better sit down for this - of falling into the hands of the Chinese or the Japanese at the world's womens curling.
Scots girls were sent packing days ago and the Canucks are in tough right now against the Japanese in the semis.
I'm not sure how Wendy, Brownie and the English are behind this debacle but I'm sure someone will connect the dots. It's only a matter of time.
Oh the shame that it's come to this.

#447 - Err Media, isn't Auz now in the grips of a loony left Labour government that makes Gordo look nearly normal? Out of the frying pan and into the fire as the expression goes.
384

rona,

29/03/2008 21:15:50
The reverse is called addadictome. It's Latin.
385

rona,

29/03/2008 21:16:13
I hate rona.
386

rona,

29/03/2008 21:17:08
I watched the Rangers v Celtic match on AntsTV. It was on a Chinese channel.
387

rona,

29/03/2008 21:21:07
Richard. He has a girl-friend. You've to blow her up first.
388

rona,

29/03/2008 21:21:24
Lilly the lilo apparently.
389

rona,

29/03/2008 21:21:51
Glenolge?
390

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/03/2008 21:25:15
Well then, that appears to be yon Truelly English, AMtwa and Media1 in the huff tonight. Must have been something we said.

Makes you wonder if we'll be able to log in tomorrow. That's narrow nationalism for you.
391

rona,

29/03/2008 21:26:28
Truellllly Scrumptious Jock.
392

rona,

29/03/2008 21:29:04
In Germany, a blow up woman is called a rubber bride.
WTF wants to marry it - apart from....?